Pain-Free Knees, Low Back, and Shoulders for Training LONGEVITY (Dr. John Rusin) | Ep 388 - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
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Philip Pape (00:01):
If you've been pushing through knee pain,
nursing a cranky low back, oravoiding certain lifts because
your shoulders complain, youneed this episode.
My guest today reveals whythese three areas fail together,
not separately, and how mosttraining advice makes the
problem worse.
You'll discover why stabilityin one area affects pain in
another, how to modify movementswithout abandoning your goals,

(00:24):
and what actually buildsresilience instead of just
managing symptoms.
Stop choosing between resultsand pain-free training when you
can have both.
Welcome to Wits and Weights,the show that helps you build a

(00:46):
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering, and
efficiency.
I'm your host, Philip Pape, andtoday we're discussing why the
joints that handle some of themost load, your knees, your low
back, your shoulders, tend toget beat up and how you can
achieve a pain-free approach toyour training and movement.
My guest today is Dr.

(01:06):
John Russin, a physicaltherapist and strength coach
who's worked with everyone.
He's worked with athletes fromthe MLB to the NFL to the
Olympics, powerlifting,endurance sports.
He founded the pain-freeperformance specialist
certification, which hascertified thousands of coaches
and clinicians since 2018.
He is the author of the newbook, Pain Free Performance,

(01:27):
which I've had the pleasure toread myself.
And he was even named a top 50health and fitness expert by
Men's Health.
Today, you're going to learnfrom John why your body,
especially the hips, theshoulders, the core, tends to
thrive as a system, how tomodify movements without
abandoning those preciousstrength goals that we all have.
What actually builds jointresilience versus just treating

(01:49):
symptoms and how to progress andstill train hard?
Train hard.
We want to train hard whilestaying healthy.
Whether you're currentlydealing with pain or want to
prevent it before it starts,listen up to the entire episode
because John is about to dropsome wisdom when it comes to
training longevity.
John, welcome to the show.
Phillip, that was one hell ofan intro.
I appreciate it and I'mabsolutely buttered up.

(02:10):
All right.
You're psyched.
You're psyched.
That's what we want to do here.
We want to talk about how tostay healthy.
We got a bunch of lifterslistening in.
We have a bunch of people thatwant to lift.
We might have an 80-year-oldgrandmothers who were just told
that if they don't startlifting, they're going to be in
a convalescent home.
You know, we've got everybodywho needs to get healthy and
fit.
And I want to start withthinking about the body as a
system and what you call thepillar, kind of the hips through

(02:33):
the core to the shoulders andwhy that's so important.
I know, I know when I'm doingmy deadlift, why it's important,
but really I want to understandthe big context here.
Let's start there.

Dr. John Rusin (02:43):
There's this big misconception when it comes to
strength training or health andlongevity training today that we
just have to get isolatedstrength.
You get isolated strength atyour abs for lower back pain,
isolated strength at your bicepsto look better, isolated
strength and hypertrophy at thebutt if you want to fill out
your genes.
But that's not how the body isengineered to move.
And it's definitely notengineered to function.

(03:05):
What it is engineered to do isan integrated movement model,
which is central lines oftension and stability, which
puts us in the best possibleposition to stay healthy and
also optimize performance.
And we get at that central lineof tension with something
called the pillar, which isessentially the shoulders, the
hips, and the core workingsynergistically together to give

(03:26):
us the best possible result, nomatter what the goal set is.

Okay, cool.
Okay, so you're you're one ofthose guys that gives nice,
concise statements.
I could tell you've been on amillion podcasts.
I love it.
Okay, so so a center line oftension, central line of
tension.
I think that's great,especially the word tension
because it it reminds me ofvarious queuing protocols with,
you know, whether just today Iwas doing T bar rows.
I don't know if you saw it onInstagram.

(03:52):
Not sure if I'm prop holdingthe proper line of tension, but
that's kind of what I thinkabout.

I thought you were Arnold.
I had it wrong.
That's right.

Yeah, actually, you're supposed to have a little
rounding on that one.
But, you know, so let's talkabout that a little bit more.
When we say the central line oftension, are we are we talking
about the context of everydaymovement as we're walking around
thinking about our posture andsuch?
Are we applying thisspecifically to protocols in
training, protocols in rehab?
Like where does it applypractically?

Well, for my clients and my athletes that
I've worked with, the firstskill that I try to teach them
and at least have them hone inon some sort of requisite skill
and connectivity of the pillarcomplex is being able to teach
breathing and bracing.
You know, breathing and bracingis super unsexy.
The fact that we're sittinghere talking about it on a
podcast means that, wow, it mustbe important because that's the

(04:42):
last thing that people want todo in their training.
But we get it wrong when itcomes to breathing and bracing.
Specifically for pillarbracing, we never connect the
ball and socket base joints tothe spine.
Every time we hear, hey, if youwant to protect your spine
while strength training,especially going heavy, brace
the core, use your core, getyour abs tight, all these cues,

(05:02):
but they're incomplete becausewithout managing the shoulder
joint, which is the most mobilejoint in the body, and then the
hip joints, which are the secondmost mobile joints in the body,
we never have that central lineof stability.
We essentially just have alittle bit of tension through
musculature that cannot connectto the ground, it cannot connect
to weights, it cannot connectto your human movement system.

(05:23):
So simply by going through andconnecting these three integral
areas, we give ourselves asuperpower to be able to create
internal tension, meaning thatmask much musculature can create
tension to be able to stabilizeand centrate, essentially get
those joints into optimalpositions in order to function,
but also in order to not takethe wear and tear of your

(05:45):
strength training, no matter themovement or the exercise.
And instead, we direct thatforce and we direct that load
right into the key musculatureor the movement patterns that we
want them to.

Yeah, and that that's definitely speaks to me
from a physical perspective ofcreating that solid end-to-end
system of transferring load.
When I think of physics andbiomechanics, I'm a very nerdy
engineering guy.
And our listeners are as well.
So they do love this stuff.
They do find it sexy, by theway, breathing and embracing.
Okay.
Love it.
So I'm kind of jumping aroundmy notes here, but I guess when
it comes to breathing andembracing, is there a universal

(06:16):
set of steps that could apply toanything anytime you need to do
this?
You know, we hear terms likeintraabdominal pressure.
We talk about using liftingbelts sometimes versus not when
training.
Um, I know there aremisconceptions when I see
someone squat and they're likebreathing out as they come up
instead of holding the breathand things like that.
Yeah.
But are there are the universaltips somebody could take away,

(06:37):
whatever they go and do in thegym next week, that they could
apply?

So the first thing that we need to do is have
that connection point, be ableto create tension around the
shoulders, then the hips, thenbreathe in, brace around the
core, and have this central lineof tension.
But from there, many timespeople come to me and they go,
Oh, yeah, I know how to brace.
Well, why are you visiting mewith lower back pain and chronic
shoulders that don't moveimmobile and are causing you

(07:02):
pain on bench press?
It's a matter of being able toactually take the activity at
hand and brace the tension tothat activity in a smart and
common sense way.
You know, the way that we'regonna deadlift for a one
repetition max is far differentthan the way that we are gonna
go in for a 25 rep goblet squat.
We need to be able to have adimmer switch on our tension and

(07:24):
our overall bracing strategy.
And that will be polar oppositefor what our breathing is.
So, breathing and bracing needto go together.
It's like peanut butter andjelly.
When you're going for a one RMdeadlift, of course, we want to
be able to brace maximally.
We want to hold our breath andwe want to move that load
because we don't want a wholelot of moving parts as
load-centric loading is going tobe the focus.

(07:47):
But as soon as we actually haveto take in oxygen in order to
survive a set or into surviveour lives, we need to be able to
make our pillar tight, be ableto have common form and
technique that holds up againstthe stress.
But we also need to make surethat we have oxygenation that
does happen indeed.
So we go through differentbreathing and bracing

(08:09):
strategies.
Essentially, as load goes up,your breathing capacity goes
down.
As load goes down, yourbreathing ability goes up.
And it's all about minimaleffective brace in order to keep
optimal mechanics.

Great.
So effectively, there's I'mpicturing an inverse set of
curves, somewhat like a spectrumbetween full bracing, fully
holding your breath because theload is near maximal, all the
way to more of a work capacity,endurance, you need the
oxygenation.
So you, you know, the you don'tneed to brace to that extent.
In fact, it could becounterproductive, which reminds

(08:43):
me of my front squats thisweek, you know, whereas doing
sets of 10 to 15, very differentexperience where you're getting
a little bit winded versus setsof three to five on a back
squat or something.
So actually, I remember in yourbook, guys, anybody watching
the YouTube, I was joking,that's kind of a tome coffee
table reference book in all thebest ways.
His new book, Pink FreePerformance, because I did read

(09:03):
through this and I do, I doappreciate how you go over very
specific context for each ofthese.
You know, you have likeladders, you have different
level types of movements and repranges where you breathe in
different ways.
So we don't have to go throughall of that on the show today,
but I do want listeners tounderstand that context matters
and the breathing embracingmatters.
What I want to get into next,John, is training hard.

(09:24):
I think you said in the booksomething like training
pain-free doesn't mean trainingeasy.
It's it's training in ways thatmake you resilient without
breaking you down.
And a lot of people here modifyfor pain.
I've got pain, I'm rehabbingthis and that, and I'm gonna
take it easier.
I'm gonna go light.
And unfortunately, a lot ofdoctors give advice that they
don't specify what they mean,which side tangent, by the way.

(09:45):
My my mother-in-law, her doctorjust said, you need to start
lifting now and heavier thebetter, or you're gonna be in a
nursing home before long.
So I appreciated a doctorsaying that.
But uh, what's the relationshipbetween like training hard and
training smart, if that's theterms we want to use?
You know what I mean?

Our industry has had a pendulum swing, I think,
over the last decade or two.
We went from, hey, just go outand kill yourself in the 60s,
70s, 80s, up until the 90s,hypertrophy at all costs, big
lifts for strength and musclebuilding.
Don't warm up, don't worryabout anything.
It's all gonna be good as longas you're as big as humanly
possible.

(10:21):
And then I think like late 90sinto the 2000s, we got into this
like quote unquote functionaltraining trend.
And everyone wanted to become aphysical therapist.
Everyone wanted to be acorrective exercise specialist.
And all of a sudden, strengthcoaches and personal trainers
were doing pseudo-physicaltherapy on the floor of the gym.
And we forgot to actually trainfor the physical capacities

(10:42):
that give us that health andlongevity, strength, muscle,
cardio and endurance, all thesethings that are heavy hitters.
And at pain-free performance,we are the middle ground on
almost every single thingbecause I've been at high
performance athletics andsports, I've been in physical
therapy, uh, working with peoplethat are out of surgery or

(11:02):
having market pain responses.
And I do believe that halfwaybetween many of these extremist
polarizing swings is going to bethe right approach for many.
But really, what it means isthat we need to be training as
hard as possible in aconcentrated and a focused way.
And we need a standardizedsystem in order to just do all

(11:22):
the right things that we need tobe doing for our health
longevity orthopedically andsystemically.
But more so, we need to beavoiding the wrong things
because it's avoiding the wrongthings that actually push us
forward in terms of our momentumdecade by decade.

And what are those wrong things?
What are those wrong things,John?

Wrong things, man.
There's a laundry list of thesewrong things.
But I think the number onething that people tend to
neglect is theirwell-roundedness in terms of
just being a functional humanbeing.
Like I do believe that thereare things that every single
human, no matter if you're achild all the way up into an
active ager, should be able todo with your body in terms of

(12:02):
their movement patterns.
But I also believe that thereare physical capacities and
characteristics that need to beable to be trained and
maintained for a lifetime if weare gonna indeed thrive.
And many times we don't havethat mindset when it comes to
our training.
We have, hey, I am a hobbyist.
I'm only interested in this onething, and I'm gonna deep dive
into this one thing until itbreaks me down, burns me out, or

(12:25):
leaves me with an injury that Ihave to then take a break from.
We call that the plannedmeathead deload.
We want to avoid all of thesethings and just simply be a
little bit more well-rounded inour training so we can have the
ability to be pain-free, notsuffer injuries, but also just
function more normally in ourlives, being able to do things

(12:46):
with physical autonomy that wewere meant to do.

Physical autonomy.
I love that.
Yeah.
Seriously, man.
This lack of well-roundedness,we're all guilty of it, myself
included.
Some of it comes from time,right?
Like, how can I do all thethings?
Some of it comes from, youknow, passion where you get into
something and you go all hogwild in it.
Some comes from the dogma inthe industry, I think, where the
different camps say, like, thisis all you just need strength.

(13:09):
That's all you need.
You know, like you don't,which, and and I've come from
some of that.
And the more I get exposed tothese things and talk to guys
like you, the more I start tointegrate all this.
But what I want to be carefulof, because I could see it
happening if you like, if youread your book and you have
these train strength training oryou have these training
templates at the end and there'sdifferent days per week,
different levels of experience,it can seem overwhelming if

(13:30):
you've never done all of that.
You're like, oh my God, I gottado the warm-ups and I gotta do
the foam rolling, I have to dothis and that, the other.
Where do you meet people in themiddle when they're starting
from that mindset?

I think at the entry point is important.
Like people are gonna havedifferent entry points into the
industry.
Maybe cardio is your entrypoint, maybe doing a progressive
powerlifting program is yourentry point.
But if you train long enough,you're going to be humbled.
It is not a matter of if, it'sa matter of when.
And that humbling usuallyhappens through injuries.

(14:02):
It happens through performanceplateaus.
You can't quite get what youused to get.
And then all of a sudden,people make the mistake of
going, hey, you know what?
I'm dogmatic.
I believe in this one thing.
What's the fix to this onething?
I'm gonna double down on thisone thing instead of maybe going
right or left of that onething.
Maybe if you're super intopowerlifting, moving a little

(14:22):
bit of hypertrophy and mobilitywill probably do you some good.
If you're a cardio bunny,actually going into some
functional strength training isprobably the thing that you
need.
The rule of oppositesdefinitely applies when it comes
to hobbying inside of ourindustry.
And I think that over time,people are pushed to become more
well-rounded if they want tocontinue to do the thing that

(14:43):
they love to do, which istraining.
I know that clients that I workwith and many of my athletes,
they're not worried about justtraining today.
They love this.
They are doing it every daybecause it's become part of
them.
And they want to make sure thatthey can do it into their 40s,
50s, 60s, 70s, and beyond.
And that doesn't happen bychanging what you're doing at 70

(15:04):
when you're all broken down andhurt.
It it changes with what youdecide to do today, just little
by little, to be able toincorporate base things that,
again, we should be able to do.

And I like the lateral.
You mentioned lateral, I thinkin the previous response, but
the the, because I think oflateral thinking, like getting
out of the box, same thing,physically lateral, which means
start from where you are todayand then branch out.
And it reminds me of some guysI follow who I'm actually
running some of their programsfor that very reason, like
Jeffrey Verity Schofield.
You know, he'll throw in cardiotwo days a week to his training

(15:36):
programs.
And it's like, it's in there.
So if you're a lifter who'sused to following programs,
you're like, cardio's in there.
I'm just gonna do it.
It kind of gets you to do it.
Or Brian Borstein, who's intomore of the, I guess, the high
rocks kind of level of a littlebit more elite hybrid
athleticism, Cody McBroom.
We had Chris Gethin on theshow.
I think his episode's comecoming out right before yours.
And I think it's importantbecause for a while, I

(15:58):
personally was in the like thestarting strength world, and
there's a lot of value there forsure.
I mean, I credit that with alot of strength development.
But then there is looking downon a con condescension against,
you know, anything else, right?
Like, you know, and I talk badabout CrossFit sometimes, but
only from the perspective ofwhen people do it, you know,
have bad form and they'reslamming out reps and they're
getting injured, you know,there's something to be said for

(16:21):
that.
So with this context, thengoing back to the pillar, maybe
that's where we can start.
And we talk about like referredpain and why people have injury
and why people have pain.
Is this a compensation thinggoing on that's important to
understand?
Or where do we start breakingthis down?

I think 30 years ago, when you look at the
greater body of evidence andresearch, and then you look at
professionalized educationwithin the universities, spent
way too many years there.
We thought that this pain thingwas just a pure mechanical
approach to movement.
Hey, if you move in this way,you will have pain and you will
get injured.
And today that's laughable.

(17:00):
You're just like, what?
You know, like a biomechanicscourse showed me how to be
pain-free for life.
If that was true, we wouldn'tbe dealing with the chronic pain
and injury cycle that we arecurrently seeing amongst our
active population today here inAmerica.
So I think that pain isdefinitely a more complex
conversation that we need to behaving.
But calling it what it is, Ithink the first line of being

(17:23):
able to write yourself is beingable to move well.
And what moving wellessentially means is moving well
for your body, your particularbody, your limb lengths, your
joint types, your body size, andbeing able to take that and
look at your skill set and beable to customize your positions
and know very well that noteveryone is going to look

(17:45):
exactly the same way as theysquat.
Not everyone is going to beable to deadlift from the same
height with a neutral spine.
And not every running mechanicis going to be the same gate
locomotion cycle.
We are unique beings.
And I feel like in every otheraspect of the industry today,
everything's so unique, thefunctional health cycle of
unique blood testing, so we canget on supplements and drugs.

(18:06):
And then it comes to strengthtraining, starting strength,
squat like this, overhead presslike this, bench like this,
deadlift like this.
That's a great starting point.
And I'm so happy that there isa strength emphasis coming into
our industry today.
But strength is more than justthree or four cookie cutter
textbook exercises.

(18:27):
Strength is a physicalcharacteristic, strength is not
a specific exercise.
And just having the epiphany ofmaking that realization is huge
for people's long-term health.

So when it comes to moving well for your body, then
what I know some people willinterpret that as okay, a
squat's gonna look massivelydifferent.
And I have to, where am Itrying to go with this?
People always go kind of to theextreme of this.
And I think I think what you'resaying is because of your
anthropometry, because theangles are different, the

(19:00):
principles you're trying toadhere to, which are universal,
like I don't know, vertical barpath or efficient movement, yes,
are going to translate to adifferent, you know, different
angles between the hinge pointsor something like that, right?
So maybe elaborate on that,thinking about the squat
specifically.
How does that how shouldsomeone be thinking about this
when they're they hear thisepisode?
They're like, okay, I'm finallygoing to start squatting, and

(19:21):
now I want to practice in myliving room without a bar.
You know, what are theythinking here?

It's cool because over the last 10 years,
a pain-free performancespecialist certification has
certified over 20,000 personaltrainers, strength coaches,
physical therapists, andphysicians in person in two-day
certification courses.
So, in that amount of people,you see a lot of different
movement.
And you not only see a lot ofdifferent movement from people,
you see it from experts inmovement, people that know their

(19:48):
shit, people that have beentraining their entire lives,
people that do this for aliving.
And I think when we firststarted running the
certification, the squat was thefirst movement pattern that we
were like, I know that there'ssome diversity in the squat
pattern in terms of identifyingsomebody's most optimal squat
pattern, but wow, after 10years, the diversity that we see

(20:10):
weekend to weekend in terms ofour certification courses is
absolutely wild.
But this is where people tendto go wrong right off the bat.
They go, okay, squat, only abarbell on your back, low bar
position, and I'm gonna go feetshoulder width apart, and I'm
gonna toe out slightly, I'mgonna look down at the ground,
and I'm only gonna go toparallel because that's how real

(20:32):
men squat.
And it's like, no, hold on asecond.
You know, we've seen this withdefinitely a lot of the avatars
that go through some of ourscreening and assessment
protocols for the squat.
So we're either trapped into,hey, I've been hurt from the
squat before, therefore I'mgonna modify my movement
patterns.
And it usually turns into I'mtoo wide, big base of support,

(20:52):
very low little range of motion,and kind of the parking break
on the system.
Or on the opposite direction,we see that people are like,
hey, I've squatted this way formy entire life.
Maybe I've developed it with acoach over time, and this is
going to be a specific squatexercise for maybe a barbell
sport goal.
And neither of those are goingto be optimal because again,

(21:13):
we're talking about the squatpattern itself.
When I say squat pattern versussquat exercise, I'm talking
about somebody taking a shitinto a hole in the most
opportune position possible withjoints stacked, centrated hips,
angulation at the knees thatmakes sense, looking at ankle
mobility, looking at spinalposition and neutrality, and

(21:35):
being able to organize theshoulders over the hips.
And all of a sudden you'relike, oh, okay, that is the
squat pattern.
But many people deactivate thatsquat pattern in chasing only
exercises.
So we tend to see that thereare a couple key variables in
people's squats.
Yes, the stance is going to bewider or more narrow, the foot
ABduction position is going tobe out or in.

(21:58):
And then we're going to see theknee is going to be forward or
more vertical shin.
And then we're going to see thetorso angle is also going to be
more forward or more erect.
And then the thing that usuallygets lost, because what I just
described is very sagittal,plane and unidimensional.
What gets lost is hey, what'sunderneath the skin?
You know, what's underneaththat glute?

(22:19):
What is the hip type actuallylook like?
Because that's where we tend tosee the most amount of success
in unlocking people's ranges ofmotion, getting them out of pain
at their knees, at their hips,at their lower back, and being
able to actually be strong andstable in their best squat
position.
And this is something that wego through in the pain-free
performance book and also thecertification course called the

(22:40):
hip quadrant test.
Essentially, we are able totype your hip in a matter of one
to two minutes.
You can even do it on yourselffrom the protocols in the book
to be able to look at where youshould actually be at the bottom
of your squat and what theglass ceiling is for you to be
able to get in this position andbe able to build a skill set up
so you can get into thatposition under load.
And then the goal from there isto be able to train and

(23:03):
maintain that at least one timeper week in your programming
forever.
And then the other two or threetimes per week that you're
doing a bilateral squat pattern,go into specialty, go in for
some different musculartargeting, go in for some load
capacity work at partial ranges.
You know, the sky's the limitin terms of diversity.
But what people are missing isthat they're not doing the
foundational pattern.
And instead, they're only doingthe partial pattern with

(23:25):
specific goal sets, losing thepattern in its essence itself.

Yeah, what you talk about again in the book, and
I'm happy to promote this bookonly because, guys, if you if
you check this out, whether youget the digital or physical when
it comes out, there's a lot ofprogression and context and
building from essentiallynothing up the ladder, not just
with what John mentioned, rangeof motion and your own

(23:51):
biomechanics, but also the typesof movements and making it as
accessible as possible and kindof working your way up.
Like I could see myself onthose different spectra where,
okay, right here I'm close tothe top.
I'm pretty confident.
Here I would probably step backa bit and work my way up.
And then you also mentionedtargeting different muscle
groups and things like that.
You know, I've had Andy Bakeron the program several times.

(24:13):
I love Andy because he he camefrom the starting strength
world, but then has branched outand realized the importance of
variety effectively, not for itsown sake, but because of what
you just mentioned.
And we had a whole discussionabout squatting and ultimately
the million ways you could squatand different types of
exercises.
It's not really about that,right?
It's achieving the rightmovement pattern.

(24:34):
And look, if you have the rightmovement pattern and you
progress over time, you're gonnaget massive results, whatever
squat patterns you decide to do.
And a lot of that comes down towhat's fun to you and what do
you want to train with too,right?
So anyway, I don't know whereI'm going with all that, other
than to say it makes sense to bemethodical about this, whether
it's buying your book, reachingout, going to YouTube, listening

(24:55):
to podcasts, practicingthinking, being mindful.
Let me ask you, John, whenyou're in the gym and you're
training, do you listen to musicor do you think with your
thoughts?
How do you, how are you mindfulabout your listeners?

I've been uh quote unquote raw dogging my
sessions lately.
I know that was a popular termof like guys going on a
transatlantic flight and notlistening or watching anything,
but that's what I've been doing.
But I follow my ownprogramming.
I go inside of the Unbreakableapp and I subscribe to it just
like every one of my othermembers does.
And I find liberation in thatbecause I know I'm gonna be
getting the diversity ofmovement patterning that I need.

(25:26):
I get the distribution ofvolume throughout the patterns
and the exercise selection thatI need.
And I also kind of have thesame goals as everybody else.
You know, nearing 40, being adad that coaches baseball and
basketball, you know, being ahusband and a business owner, I
got 60 minutes to hit it.
And I know that I need to befocused.
I need to be on rest periods.
I have different keyperformance indicators, strength

(25:46):
movements that I'm chasing, butI also want to have that feel
of moving well, being mobile,and also like tapping into an
athletic potential, even at myage, where I never want to lose
track of athleticism and power.
So, like the programming that Ido right now, I stay very
focused in on it because I justfollow the app and I do exactly

(26:07):
that.
And then I track it.
And there's a reason that thatworks for accountability and
just staying on track becausetoday it's super easy to go to
Instagram and lose 10 minutesbetween a set.
And it's definitely easy toprogram hop while you're doing
an actual program just becauseof all of the very superficial
resources that we have at ourfingertips.

Yeah, so raw dogging it, following a program,
making judicious use of yourrest periods and not getting
distracted while you lift.
And I can raise my hand beingguilty of that sometimes, where
I'm like, okay, I'm anentrepreneur and I'm losing
weights.
Go, do both at the same time,you know?
But uh, so okay, maybe ropingback a little bit to the framing

(26:48):
of this episode on pain,specifically where people get a
lot of the pain, which is lowback or shoulders or knees.
Maybe, maybe looking at the lowback, that comes up a lot.
Low back fatigue, low backpain.
And then sadly, a lot of peoplejust have something go,
something pop, have to have asurgery.
I know someone, she's a powerlifter.
I've always thought she's she'slifted great and and she's been

(27:10):
competitive and she had to havea microdyskectomy recently, but
she also got a lot into runningand rowing, which she hadn't
adapted to as much as herlifting.
So who knows where the issuewas?
People are like, what do I do?
Where do they start thinkingabout protecting?
I even like the word protectingsometimes because it sounds
like too much in a shell, likesafety, but basically fortifying

(27:30):
back.

Two patterns that are going to be super back
intensive and also back sparingare going to be the hip hinge
pattern and the single legpattern.
We call it the lung atpain-free performance.
But when it comes to knee pain,when it comes to lower back
pain and really shoulder pain,those are going to be the big
three in our industry today.
Like we have to have a goodfoundation of biomechanics.

(27:52):
Like we've already talked aboutthe foundations of finding your
unique biomechanics that workfor you.
But I didn't add the next layerto this, which is once you find
your unique biomechanics, cool,that's your central line on a
spectrum.
Be able to add diversity andrange of motion and different
muscular targeting and differentrep ranges and different rep

(28:12):
speeds and all these differentmethods and modalities that we
can start throwing on the systemstrategically over time, not
all in one single training week,is going to be the recipe for
long-term success.
But with the lower backspecifically, I tend to see that
people neglect the hip hingepattern because they go, I've
hurt myself deadlifting before.

(28:34):
Well, what's a deadlift to you?
Well, it's a conventionalstance with a barbell on the
ground, of course.
And I am hoisting that thing upat all costs.
And in our research atpain-free performance, we've
seen that people are unable tokeep a neutral zone of spinal
neutrality 93% of the time whendoing a conventional barbell

(28:56):
deadlift off the ground.
And this is out of a more purehip hinge pattern.
So essentially what happens topeople is that they think this
arbitrary exercise is the be-allend-all of everything.
But what if you're one of the93% that can't even access that
bar off the ground?
You're going to be doing one oftwo things.
You're going to be usingmechanics from the squat,
pushing your knees forward,rounding your lower back,

(29:18):
dumping your pelvis in order toget yourself wedged into that
position.
Or you're going to be goingthrough and putting undue stress
directly on the spine, beingable to try to force in a hip
hinge that you simply don'tmaybe have the range of motion
or the mobility or the hipstructure to be able to achieve.
And there's very rarely a timewhere we bring somebody right

(29:41):
from, hey, you had pain, hey,you had an injury.
Let's go right back to pickingsomething up off the ground.
Many times this is the patternthat is in dire need of a
rebuild because people have notjust pain and injury backgrounds
mechanically, but it reallyfucks with your mind.
When you blow out Your back andit is deteriorating to your

(30:02):
lifestyle, not just yourtraining, but your lifestyle,
you're going to think againbefore you go back in and train
that, or you're just going to belost and able to really take
the most out of the highestyielding movement pattern that
we have.
But I would say about 40 to 50%of people today attempting to
strength train are neglecting,if not disusing fully the hip

(30:24):
hinge and the deadlift.
And this is really problematicbecause we say that it is the
most injurious movement pattern,but it is also the movement
pattern that will protect themost.
So where do we go on this yinand yang?
And it's back to a strategicrebuild of trying to put the
pieces together stronger andhealthier and more customized to

(30:45):
your specific needs.

The yin and yang is a great way to describe it
because I sometimes have troublecommunicating to people that a
deadlift done wrong could hurtyou, and a deadlift done right
could save you, right?
It's the same principle.
And of course, and you calledit the highest yielding movement
pattern we have, which again, II strongly I love the deadlift.
Personally, I love it.
I think my body is built for itway more than the squat, and

(31:07):
that could just be an excuse notto get my squat up.
But it is, it is a fun lift.
When you said the, I think yousaid the safe zone around the
line of neutrality.
Uh, in your book, in your book,you have diagrams showing, for
example, somebody hinged overand you have this zone with
different colors, and there'sthat safe zone and then the
buffer zone.
And it's it's quite liberal.
It's not like you have to besuper afraid that it's just this

(31:27):
rock solid line.
And once you go out, springyour back falls apart.
But you said 93% of people cannaturally stay or have trouble
staying.

They are unable to access the bar for a
conventional deadlift with spineneutrality.
But the interesting thing inthat section of pain-free
performance about the neutralzone of stability of tension
around the spine is that thereare many different factors.
It's not just a biomechanicalmodel.
Our zone of neutrality goes outand it comes back in based on
your preparation at hand, basedon your skill, based on your

(32:04):
sleep cycles, based on your pastinjury history, based on your
training loads and volumes,based on an exercise being a
mismatch for your uniquebiomechanics versus something
that actually is a good matchfor you.
There are many differentvariables that actually affect
your neutral line of tension andyour zone of neutrality.
And this is something that Iwas super proud of in the book

(32:25):
because I haven't heard a wholelot of people talk about this
before.
They're so they're so black andwhite when it comes to spine
neutral at all costs.
You know, you hear thekettlebell community going
perfect spine neutral whilekettlebell swinging.
What do you mean?
There's 17 to 24 degrees ofspinal flexion at the bottom of
a kettlebell swing, even inperfect quote unquote execution.
So, what are we really talkingabout here?

(32:47):
What we want to be able tomitigate the risk away from is
having rapid force, eccentricflexion of the spine under load.
What that essentially means islike, hey, you're out fishing,
you got a fish on the line, theline goes like this, it bends
the line and it bends your hook,and all of a sudden you're
like, whoa, okay, I got thatfish.

(33:08):
But you don't want to do thatto your spine.
That is something that when wedo see injuries, they can happen
in many different types ofways.
But I tend to see the injurieshappen specifically on the hip
hinge pattern with that rapidforce, eccentric moment as we're
coming up out of the hole offthe ground.
Usually that first like two tofive inches off the ground is

(33:30):
where people tend to lose theircentral line of stability.
They lose their spinal tension,they lose that zone of
neutrality, and they end up, ifthey are having all those other
factors line up correctly,unfortunate for them, they end
up with an ache, pain, injury,flare-up, whatever you want to
call it.

Okay, that's really important.
So we want to avoid rapidforce, eccentric flexion on the
spine.
Is that dumbing it down roundedback?

When you're quick pulling rounding of the
back.
And it's usually going to beanywhere from like the lower
back or the L and S spine.
That is where the vast majorityof these are going to happen.
There's a natural fulcrumingpoint that happens in the lower
lumbar spine.
And that is something that is,again, natural, but we don't
want to be loading it and wedon't want to be losing that

(34:16):
line of tension, especiallyunder load.
And I think that as likeinjurious as that may sound,
this is really easy to avoidwith what we started with, with
just being able to brace andbreathe properly.

Brace.
Yep, for sure.
Yeah.
So L4, L5, S1 is where you heara lot of these injuries and
issues.
And if you look at the spine,you can kind of see that S shape
occur around there.
But you also mentioned that itmoves with your adaptation, with
your recovery capacity.
And I get attest to this.
We talk about, you know, thedifferences between fat loss and
when you're not in a deficit,when you train of being even

(34:51):
more attentive, not that youshouldn't always be, but that
you're more susceptible to someof these things because of the
fatigue and the recoverycapacity.
I know personally when I getdistracted or I go in and I try
to be, you know, do an ego lift,right?
You kind of get the same thing.
So the adaptation I wanted toask about because you hear a lot
of criticism or hot takes onInstagram.
You know, look at this guy whocan deadlift 900 pounds, but

(35:12):
look at that rounded back.
That's awful.
And I'm like, okay, he'sadapted to that and he's doing
it and he hasn't injuredhimself, but is he about to snap
his back?
Like, what are we talkingabout?

Taking these people that are absolute beasts,
probably a world record holderhas been deadlifting for 20 or
30 years at this point.
There's really no huge youngguns in the game.
They've been able to againadapt and stress the system in a
strategic way, extraordinarilystrategic way, in order to again
go at a specific goal for asport, which is totally

(35:42):
different than lifting forhealth and longevity.
But I have personal clientsthat I work with that you would
look at their deadlift form andbe like, oh, he just hoisted 950
and he had a rounded andkyphotic spine at the thoracic.
And then maybe he's probablyeven rounding at the lumbar
spine.
But the big difference betweenthat rounding setup for these

(36:04):
guys that are absoluteanomalies, if I'm just calling
it out, is that they never getpulled into deeper flexion
rapidly.
They maintain that flexionpoint and they don't have a net
positive flexion point at thespine.
I think that's the bigdifferentiation factor.
That, and they've donedeadlifting so much volume with

(36:25):
so much intricate technique workthat they are masters of this
specific skill out of thisspecific position.
And their body has normalizedit in terms of the way that they
have callused their system.

Yeah.
Yeah.
The the speed at which theangle changes and the force gets
applied is a direct function ofthe maximum force that's
getting applied, right?
F equals MA.
I think about discussions I'vehad recently with lifting buddy
of mine, how much we love pausesthese days.
You know, we're both in our 40sand we like pausing at the
bottom of a lot of ourmovements.
Take out the stretch reflex,only because sometimes that is

(37:00):
where you're prone to have thosehigh levels of force from the
stretch.
Not that it can't be alsobeneficial and you can build the
resilience and adaptation, butit's it's what came to my mind.

Anytime that you take a movement pattern,
whatever movement pattern it is,squat bench, deadlift,
whatever, and you take it to itsX amount of available range of
motion, and then you play andyou dabble between compensatory
range of motion and an authenticrange of motion, you're in this
intermediate range where all ofa sudden you don't have the
active stability neurologicallyor mechanically that you

(37:31):
probably should have.
And you're using compensation,whether that be momentum,
whether that be using like thetendoosseous junctions to be
like rebound and ramp up out ofa squat.
Whatever it may be, those arethings that maybe not line up
well for your long-term health.
You know, people are alwayslike, oh, well, what do you
think about the butt wink in asquat?
Like, I hate it.

(37:52):
Like if your goal is to feelawesome and just like be jacked
at 45, like probably the buttwink has no place in your
programming.
But if you're gonna go to theCrossFit games at 45 and try to
compete for a medal, like that'sa totally different story.
So there's always two sides ofthe coin, but I do believe that
anytime that we can be a masterof our movement and then we can
dominate a movement and thendiversify that movement little

(38:14):
by little to be able to addvariance.
And that is gonna be a morewell-rounded spectrum of the
human movement system.

For sure.
Yeah, no, I I love that.
And you also mentioned thelunge when we talk about the hip
and shoulders and the thatpillar.
And it's funny because I just Ijust started a new cycle of a
program that does have walkinglunges in there, which I like,
but I also they also have oneand a half walking lunges, which
I like quad burners, right?
You go go down, go down, comeup halfway.

(38:42):
You know what it is.
Just explain for the listener.
Go all the way down, come uphalfway, go back down.
So you've just like use thelengthened position without
relieving much tension, and thencome back up into the walk.
And you'll find you can't donearly as many of those as the
full as the single walks.
But where does the where doesthe lunge fit in here?
Because it is one of your six.

The lunge is the most detrained.
You know, the hip hinge, nobodywants to do.
Yeah.
Ignore our ignore.
Uh Dave Tate, an ex-client ofmine and a mentor of mine, said
it best when I was working withhim at Elite FTS.
He goes, John, this sucks.
I had him doing split squats.
He goes, This sucks becauseit's half the amount of weight
and it's twice as hard.

(39:20):
And I'm like, man, you justsaid it.
You just said it.
And that line is right in thebook, too.
But when it comes to the lunge,I think it's misunderstood and
it's also neglected because it'sgoing to be hard every single
time.
Uh, unilateral-based lower bodywork is going to be very
demanding in terms of themuscular system, the
stabilization system, theneurological system, and the
sympathetic system is reallygoing to be heightened up

(39:41):
because the balance component toit.
But I think just from themechanics alone, it
differentiates itself.
It's not just a squat on oneleg.
It's not just a hip hinge onone leg.
It actually is its own distinctpattern.
So the lunge pattern has allthe best properties from the
squat, which is associated witha positive shin angle, a knee

(40:02):
forward uh position, and be ableto have quadricep dominance.
And then also it's a hip hingeat the hips that integrates
hamstrings and glutes and lowerback.
So we actually have maximalamount of load capacity in
single leg with many of thesepatterns, like the Bulgarian
split squat, walking lunges,that feel natural to the body as

(40:23):
well, because when we functionon single leg, that is where we
spend 85 plus percent of ourmovement lives on.
You know, we're not functioningin our daily life doing
bilateral positions at the squator at the hinge.
We are definitely maneuveringin asymmetrical lower body
stances.
So this is one that I tend toput the most amount of volume

(40:44):
distribution in for almosteverybody I'm working with.
Probably the highest withathletes, the second highest
with like the 35, 40 pluspopulation, and then the third
highest amongst people that wantto get super strong
unconventionally, usually comingfrom more of a barbell
background.
But usually with a lower bodyday, we're distributing anywhere
from 50 to 70% of total volumein asymmetrical lower body

(41:08):
stances, which is essentiallyour lunch pattern from pain-free
performance.

Okay, yeah.
And that is definitely higherthan the traditional most people
would see.
Oh, yeah.
Um, and it sounds brutal, but Iget it because reverse lunges,
I don't know if you put step-upsin there, but to me, those are
hard too.
And, you know, what splitsquats, we all there's there's
memes galore about split squats,you know, being the worst of
the worst, right?
But again, we have to changeour mindset and think like how

(41:33):
beneficial that is.
I mean, you mentioned stabilityand balance and everything.
It's like raise your hand ifyou're listening and you've
tried a walking lunge and youlike, you know, are just trying
to stay up straight, let alonewith a bar on your back, if
you're not doing dumbbells.
So yeah, I thought that wasinteresting because a lot of
people reduce the movementpatterns to exclude that.
And I think it I I am comingaround to your way of thinking

(41:54):
here.
I think it's really cool.

Yeah, like just going over the years, chasing
like we we call it functionalmeat head.
Functional meat head is we'regonna take some like easy-ish
exercise, something that you'dsee in physical therapy, and
we're gonna push it to theabsolute limits.
The chase over the last likefive years or so has been
Bulgarian split squat five RMs.
How heavy could you possibly goout of different loading
positions?
I've gotten it to the 150s ineach hand for five reps down to

(42:19):
the side, and I've also gobletBulgarian split squat 190 pounds
in front of the body for fivereps.
So when you do things likethat, you're like, man, that
doesn't sound fun.
But you learn a lot about thebody's natural stability points
and where we can actuallymaximize strength recruitment
from in those particularpatterns.
Knee forward position plus thehip hinge is gonna be strong,

(42:42):
it's gonna be stable, and it'salso gonna be able to be able to
mitigate risk of knee pain longterm because we get into the
deep knee flexion, and it'sgonna be able to spare the spine
because we are on anasymmetrical stance at the lower
body, and essentially ourpelvis can rotate in opposite
directions, and the stabilityfactor is far different than in
the bilateral counterpart.
So when you think about doingstuff like that, you're like,

(43:04):
yeah, this is where this patternmakes sense.
If you're just setting up for aBulgarian split squat for a set
of five with a 10-pounddumbbell, and you're like, oh,
this seems easy.
I can keep a vertical shin, Ican put my knee forward, I can
do whatever I want.
That's fine.
But when you actually pushthings to absolute maximal load
or maximal challenge, your bodywill find its natural, natural
writing mechanism, put you in astrong and stable position.

(43:27):
And the thing I want people totake away from that statement is
where you are most stable isprobably where you're gonna be
the strongest.
And where you are the moststable and the strongest is
where you're likely to be thesafest.

Right.
Got it.
Okay.
Yeah.
And so again, we have to trainhard, is also part of the uh
part of the equation.
And that was a good segue toknee pain because you mentioned
the knee flexion and how thissupports the knee.
We talked about Pateller, youknow, the tracking and the knees
forward.
There's a lot of, I'll call itmythology around that because
people will reduce the, youknow, form check to, oh, your

(43:59):
knee's traveling too farforward, not thinking about the
system.
So, what are your thoughts onthat?
And in general, knee pain,maybe the use of knee sleeves,
like the whole ball of wax.

One of the biggest mistakes that people
will make if they have thatgeneralized chronic front-sided
knee pain is that all of asudden they'll go and Google it
and they'll be like, oh, I needa knees over toes program.
I need to be forcing my kneeforward in the most
biomechanically disadvantageousposition possible while it's
hot, while it's hurting.
And sissy squats.
Yeah, yeah, sissy squats.

(44:30):
Uh, there's a bunch ofdifferent exercise variants with
that.
But that's the opposite thingof what we would recommend that
pain-free performance.
If you are dealing with hotknee issues, like, hey, this
thing actively hurts right nowand it's been kicking my ass for
a number of weeks, if notmonths.
That's the time where we pullback and we actually back down
into some simple biomechanics.
If we can manage where the kneeis relative to the ankle, that

(44:53):
is going to take thedistribution of our loading
through our body and it's goingto put it onto different key
musculature into differentpatterns in different ways.
So the more vertical we cankeep the shim, the more the
posterior chain is going to beinvolved.
Hamstrings and glutes, if wecan get stronger at both of
those places, that is going tobe putting us in a nice position
long term to have pain-freeknees.

(45:14):
But we don't want to just staythere because I think many times
people just end up stayingthere.
Their squats are verticalshins, their lunges are vertical
shins, everything that they'redoing is vertical shins.
And guess what?
When we walk, we don't have avertical shin.
When we run, when we sprint,when we change the direction and
being an athlete, there isnever a vertical shin.
There's a knee forward positionand there's a dominancy of

(45:35):
being on the toes versus theheels.
And that's something that weneed to grade and scale back
into.
But naturally, we need to bemoving back into a more knees
over toes position in a gradedand concentrated way, maybe week
by week, program by program,and being able to have access to
that because long term, that isgoing to be huge.
But going back to just likebeing able to get your knees

(45:57):
healthy, managing that kneesover toes position is going to
be huge.
Strengthening the posteriorchain that actually supports the
stable line of tension from theknee is going to be huge.
So hamstring work, ton.
I see that super neglected.
And then gluten, hamstring worktogether.
That posterior chain emphasisis going to be one of the best
things that we can do for ourknees.

(46:18):
Once we do that, then we canstart to scale some of the
stress back in with novelpositions of the knee actually
translating forward.

Jerry (46:27):
Hey, you just wanted to give a shout out to Phillip.
I personally worked withPhillip for about eight months,
and I lost a total of 33 poundsof scale weight and about five
inches off my waist.
Two things I really enjoy aboutworking with Philip is number
one, he's really taken the timeto develop uh a deep expertise
in nutrition and also resistancetraining.

(46:48):
So he has that depth if youwant to go deep on the Yes with
Philip.
But if also if you want to justkind of get some instruction
and more practical advice and aplan on what you need to do, he
can pull back and communicate atthat level.
Also, he is a lifter himself,so he's very familiar with the
performance and body compositiongoals that most lifters have.

(47:10):
And also, Philip is trained inengineering, so he has some very
efficient systems set up tomake the coaching experience
very easy and very efficient.
And you can really track yourresults and you will have real
data when you're done workingwith Philip and also have access
to some tools likely that youcan continue to use.
If all that sounds interestingto you, Philip, like all good

(47:33):
coaches, has a ton of freeinformation out there and really
encourage you to see if he maybe able to help you out.
So thanks again, Philip.

Cool.
Yeah, gluten hamstring work.
Everyone loves that, especiallythe ladies.
Hamstring work is is definitelyfun because there's there's
ways to isolate it both withextension and flexion.
And I know I've been doinglength and partial RDLs lately,
and those can be brutal becauseyou can some people can overload
them, some people actually findthem heavy, heavier.
It's kind of kind ofinteresting how that works
between individuals.

(48:00):
What are your favoritehamstring movements?

RDL is gonna always gonna be the king.
I would argue that the RDL, ifyou're to do one exercise for
the rest of your life, probablyhas the highest yield.
You get that stretch on thehams, you get the flex on the
glutes at the top, you're ableto have mobile full range of
motion down through theposterior chain, and you're able
to have a connectivity throughyour upper body.
Like it is awesome.
And it also gives us theability to train the core and

(48:24):
the spinal position at anisometric.
Like it is a super high yield.
But I'm a big fan of hamstringisolation work as well.
Like, not always going to bejumping into the machines doing
a machine circuit like it'sglobal gym.
But when you go to seated andline hamstring curl machines,
those are two of the onlymachines that I will routinely
be able to program in becausethere's really nothing else like

(48:47):
them in terms of open chainmechanics at the hamstrings that
will be far different in termsof the mechanics and the
properties of the joints and thestabilization patterns than
standing on two feet and doingsomething like an RDL or a split
squat with a hinge emphasis orsomething that lengthens out the
hamstrings.
But really, we like to alsohave diversity in terms of our
tool sets there.

(49:07):
Anytime that we can get slidersout, anytime that we can get
suspension, bandwork, that isgonna be huge for hamstrings.
And remember, the hamstringsaren't just one muscle.
The hamstrings are hamstrings,and then we have adductor groups
of the hamstrings as well.
So anytime that we can get outinto the lateral planes of
motion, that is gonna act forhamstring stabilization at the

(49:28):
hip down into the knee evenmore.
So you really can't go wronghaving big, strong, meaty
hamstrings because they're notonly aesthetically pleasing, but
they are so functional foralmost every goal, whether it be
trying to mitigate low backpain, being able to bring up
your glute hypertrophy, or justprotect your knees long term.

And they make your legs look good.
Uh, let me tell you, becauseit's like the triceps of the
legs, right?
You know, people think it's thebiceps, it's the triceps that
make your arms look big.
But uh no, that it's funny youmentioned the sliders and stuff.
Because I, again, I used to doCrossFit and they had the
rollers and stuff.
My my daughter's doing a littlephysical therapy for her.
She dislocated her knee notlong ago.
And they're like, Dad, have youever heard of sitting in a

(50:09):
chair and pulling with yourlegs?
I'm like, Yeah, I bet that hurtthat you feel that in
hamstrings, don't you?
Because, you know, it's justeven doing that, it's you can
see how weak you are sometimeswhen you do those.
Uh, that movement, which ismore like the leg curl type
movement.
I know we're getting low ontime.
I did want to talk about theshoulders, honestly, because I
personally have had rotator cuffsurgery.
There's probably a lot ofthings I could have done
different myself over the years.

(50:30):
I am where I am, but it's avery epidemic thing among
lifters who are older, bar none.
I mean, shoulder issues allover the place.
Some people avoid overheadpressing altogether.
Some people are in, you know,shortened range of motions,
using the pausing, using havingto vary up their grip and width
and all this.
Um, trust me, I know.
So when it comes to theshoulder pain, are there, again,

(50:51):
movement pattern issues thatpeople are doing too much?
Or is it trying to go too hardon overhead doing it the wrong
way?
Like, where does all this comefrom?

We have an obsession with the mirrored
muscles.
I think it's as simple as that.
The mirror muscles are gonna beyour abs, they're gonna be your
biceps, and of course, thechest.
And if you're not trainingchest on Monday, are you really
strain training?
And as funny and as stupid asthat sounds, if you go in and
watch any single gym across theworld as I've been to, you're
gonna see that the bench pressis the number one exercise for

(51:23):
every male in that gym on anygiven day.
And all of a sudden, you goyears, if not decades, of
overtraining the push andneglecting the backside of the
body with the pull pattern.
And we tend to run into someproblems, especially now because
we are so glued to handheldtechnology with our phones,
we're on our computers, we'resedentary more than ever before.
And we have a bigger need toactually reverse these sedentary

(51:46):
postures with the pull patternsthat put us into extension,
external rotation, and ABduction at the shoulders.
And this is the opposite ofwhat most people are training.
One of the first things that Ido with clients is that I audit
their volumes.
I audit their volumes acrosssquat hinge, lunge, push, pull,
and carry patterns.
And when it comes to the upperbody pushes and pulls, if I see

(52:06):
anything that's under like a twoto one ratio between pull and
push, I'm like, yeah, that's thefirst thing that we're gonna go
after here is we're gonnaredistribute the volume to put
more volume on the backside ofthe body in terms of rowing and
pull downs and push-ups anddirect lat work.
And then we're going toprobably keep the volume about
the same or pull it back alittle bit in terms of your push

(52:27):
pattern.
And the push pattern is gonnabe more diversified than just
the barbell bench press on aflat or if you're functional,
going up to a 45 degree angle.
And that tends to really behumbling for most people because
they go, oh shit, you know, Ineed more face pulls, I need
more rows, I need moreunilateral work in the pull
pattern.
And I need to be able todiversify away from just the

(52:49):
barbell.
I love barbell bench pressing,and I would say 60 to 70% of my
clients will barbell benchpress.
But we also are training manydifferent uh ways in terms of
landmine pressing and dumbbellpressing and working with bands
and having kettlebells.
And there's so many differentways to be able to train the
push pattern.
And the easiest one is the mostaccessible to everybody, is

(53:12):
simply doing push-ups in aclosed chain, getting your hands
on the ground and allowing yourshoulder blades to actually
start moving again.
That is going to most likely bethe pattern where we start the
rebuild process from if you'redealing with shoulder pain and
past injuries.

So much wisdom here, guys, if you're listening.
I mean, I'm just like smilinginside, John, because a lot of
what you're saying, I've had tolearn through hard knocks.
And I, you know, I'm not sayingI know everything you know, but
it just resonates so hard withme because for me personally,
for anyone listening who's beenfollowing my shoulder rehab
journey, you know, things thingsgot kind of acted up about a
year after my surgery and thingsstarted to take a turn with

(53:48):
bursitis and issues like that.
And I'm still working through,but a lot of the advice I got
and talking to guys like you,not you, but guys like you, were
trying to do more pullingmovements and try to really
strengthen the back part of theupper body.
And, you know, just today I wasdoing neutral grip pull downs
and T-bar rows, and like I'mreally getting into more of
that.
I like that two to one ratiobecause it's a nice prescriptive

(54:11):
way to think about it, whereyou, you know, if you're doing
six movements, then four of themshould be pulls rather than
pushes.
And what are what are yourthoughts on like barbell rows
and yeah, let's, you know,movements like that that have
other translation to theposterior.
Do you find them even moreeffective?
Or can they be kind of limitingbecause of the weight?
Like, what are your thoughts?

I program almost everything.
I do not program traditionalbarbell bent over rows.

I saw that in your book.
I saw that in your book.
I wanted to ask about it.

One of the reasons that I don't is not that
I think everyone's gonna beinjured first time that they do
it.
That's not the way the bodyworks.
But I do think that it's justnot the best way in order to
train the back directly.
When we're thinking aboutholding a hip hinge, we just
mentioned that a lot of peoplehave trouble hip hinging in
general, but now I'm gonna askyou to hold it for 30 to 60
seconds in a hard isometric andnot give up the position

(55:02):
whatsoever.
And then I'm gonna put yourhands in a fixed position on a
barbell in an arbitrary distanceapart, and I'm not gonna allow
natural rotation to happen atthe hands nor the shoulders.
And then I'm gonna put it intoa bilateral stance that is gonna
be dependent on your lower backposition and you staying
upright.
And then I'm gonna put max loadon because anytime we see a
barbell, it's like, how much canwe load up on this thing?

(55:25):
And many times it just turnsinto a sloppy movement, it turns
into half rep ranges of motion,a lot of momentum being used, a
lot of the recruitmentshappening at the lower back
versus the musculature of theupper back and the lats where we
really want to target.
And it's something that there'sjust like so many other awesome
variations that we couldpossibly go into for muscle, for

(55:47):
strength, for resiliencebuilding of positions, that it
just doesn't make a whole lot ofsense for me.
I will absolutely use positionsand I will use different
variances of bent over rows,whether it be single arm,
whether it be supported, whetherit be chest supported.
There's a lot of different waysto do it.
But the standard barbell bentover row, I know this seems like

(56:08):
sacrilegious to many peoplelistening, but that's just not a
high risk-to-reward exercisefor a vast majority of people
for shoulder health and forlower back health.

Yeah, I wanted to ask because I saw that in there
and I don't totally disagree.
I mean, I've spent years tryingto follow people like Alex
Bromley, for example, who takesit very seriously on how to do
the position and making sureyou're up above the ground so
that you could properly get inthe form and everything.
And then guys who, you know,are like, Loyal, let's use the
easy car, let's easy bar, let'sincrease our angle and let's do

(56:39):
power versions of that so thatyou go to a dead stop.
There's lots of things.
And maybe there are some otherbenefits like the isometrics,
but you get that fromdeadlifting as well.
So I hear you, man.
And I personally have reallystarted to enjoy like T-bar rows
and cable rows and things likethat, and really feeling it hit
those spots more directly.
But teach his own, obviously,if you can progress safely and

(57:02):
do it and you want to do it,we're not saying not to.
As we wrap up, and we're acouple minutes past, apologize.
Is there anything else you wishI had asked?
I know there's a lot we didn'tget to, but in this context of
just pain-free with those keyjoints, anything we didn't cover
that's on your mind?

I think that as we get older and as we have more
mileage on our system, we willall be pushed to be able to
evolve and change so we cancontinue to do what we love to
do.
And you said something thatreally resonated with me.
It was like, yeah, I had togain this wisdom because I had
shoulder pain.
I had to go into surgery, I hadall these injuries over the
years, but I love training andclearly we do.
But I think pain-freeperformance is a 600-page

(57:39):
resource on things that I havemade mistakes with, things that
I've been mentored by, and thesystem that you could simply run
to plug and play a pain-freeperformance model that simply
keeps you healthy and works foryour body uniquely.
We don't have to give up whatwe love to do.
I would never tell anyone that.
Leave that to the doctors andthe poor physical therapists out

(58:01):
there.
What we want to do is be ableto line you up to do what you
want to do forever, but it doestake a little bit more
concentrated work and a smartersystem to achieve that.

A smarter system to do what you love to do forever.
Love it, John.
All right.
On that note, where do you wantpeople to find you besides?
I'm going to promote it for youagain.
Pain free performance, thebook.
I think it's still availablefor pre-order because it doesn't
come out till, well, aroundwhen this episode comes out.
So look look it up.
We'll include the link to that.
Uh, any anything else where youwant them to reach you, John?

Any social media is at Dr.
John Russin on Instagram, onFacebook, also on YouTube.
And you can check out ourwebsites over at painfree
training.com and alsodrjonrusson.com.

All right, we'll include those links and uh the
handles in the show notes.
Thank you, Dr.
John Russin.
It's been a pleasure.
Really, this was even betterthan I expected.
I expected a greatconversation, but we really
covered a lot of unique, helpfulareas for the listener, and uh,
they're gonna love it.
Take home some good action fromthis.
So thank you so much, John.

Thank you so much for having me.
This was fun.

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Pain-Free Knees, Low Back, and Shoulders for Training LONGEVITY (Dr. John Rusin) | Ep 388

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Pain-Free Knees, Low Back, and Shoulders for Training LONGEVITY (Dr. John Rusin) | Ep 388