The #1 Habit for Blood Sugar Control and Insulin Resistance | Bonus - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
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Philip Pape (00:00):
Hello Wits and Weights listeners, I'm your host
, philip Pape.
Today I've got somethingspecial for you.
It is a bonus episode featuringmy recent appearance on your
Diabetes Insider podcast withBen Zeal.
Now, ben was on the show, I wason his show.
The episode we talked about onhis show wasn't just limited to
individuals with diabetes.

(00:20):
It was really at a higher level, about blood sugar management
and lifting.
Ben is a certified diabetes careand education specialist.
He has type one diabetes, beenliving with it for over two
decades, and so, yes, his showfocuses on helping people with
diabetes live their best livesthrough practical, science-based
strategies, and he is veryevidence based.

(00:41):
I love it.
When you check out his contentor go to his Instagram, you'll
see some counterintuitive thingsthat nonetheless, are highly
effective, and when he invitedme on to talk about what's the
number one habit for managingblood sugar and insulin
resistance that we could nerdout on, I knew we were gonna
have an amazing conversation.
We absolutely did, and in thisepisode, you're going to
discover what is that habit and,spoiler alert, it is strength

(01:06):
training, why this beats cardiofor metabolic health, the
research on things like movementsnacks for insulin sensitivity,
and strategies and tips tobuild the habit of lifting into
your routine, even if you'venever done it before, even if
you don't have diabetes.
The principles we discuss applyto anyone who wants to optimize
their metabolism, preventinsulin resistance, improve

(01:27):
their health.
The connection between liftingand metabolic health is
incredibly powerful and we getinto this from a practical
standpoint but also nerd out onsome of the science.
And before we get to it.
If you enjoy this conversationand this podcast, you want to
learn more from Ben.
Check out his podcast, yourDiabetes Insider.
I'll include a link in the shownotes and go ahead and follow

(01:48):
that.
But here we go.
Here's my conversation with BenZeal on your Diabetes Insider.

Ben Tzeel (01:53):
What is going on?
Welcome to this episode of theyour Diabetes Insider podcast,
where I've got my new friendhere, who is a workout master,
and I'm just excited to talk allthings lifting training to make
sure that you listening havebetter blood sugars as a person
living with diabetes.
What's going on, philip?

What's going on, man?
And I'll add to that I want youto have fun.
I want you to enjoy becoming alifter, because it's fun.

Ben Tzeel (02:15):
I was gonna say lifting.
I feel like it's something Italk about with people, we talk
about with patients all the timewhere it's so critical to great
blood sugars and people resistit all the time.
Literally it's resistancetraining, but people resist the
resistance training, even thoughfrom a diabetes standpoint it
does so many amazing things.
But I think, out of the gate,if someone's listening to this
and they're thinking it seemsreally scary.

(02:35):
I don't want to go into a gym,like what would be from your
perspective.
You know, as we'll dive intothere first, then we'll circle
back and kind of talk about yourbackground too.
But what would be your initialspot to send someone to say, hey
, I want you to get into lifting, I want you to enjoy the
process.
Where would you start somebodyout?

Yeah, I really would want to ask them like 20
questions to understand wherethat fear is coming from,
because it could come from, youknow, gym intimidation for
females.
You know, I see that a lot.
It could come from a lack ofconfidence, a fear of injury a
just, I see that a lot.
It could come from a lack ofconfidence, a fear of injury, a
just, I don't know what to train.
Or hey, I've been to the gymfor years and I don't get
results.
I hate it.

(03:14):
Right, it's.
Where does the fear come from?
And then we dig in and say, ok,let's unlock the piece that
will turn that around for youand help you not only reframe it
but get the proof of thepudding by doing something for
not too long of a period andgetting the measurable results
that tell you this thing works.
And I think I'm going to keepdoing this.

Ben Tzeel (03:28):
Well, and before we go in even deeper, tell people
just your background.
So then I was like, wait, he'stalking about lift, he knows
this stuff.
But who is this guy?
Tell a little bit about you andyour background.
So people are like, okay, I gotit.

Sure man, I'm just a lifting enthusiast who loves
this stuff, and it just happenedto translate into other
passions like podcasting andcoaching and educating and
teaching.
So I'm my background is inengineering.
I'm a very data analytical nerdtype of guy, software
engineering specifically and soI love how things come together
and how to measure and systemsbased thinking, and I think the

(04:03):
body lends itself really well tothat kind of approach.
And about five years ago, after15, 20 years of doing all the
things that don't work, Istarted to really get into what
we call evidence-based fitness,evidence-based training.
One of the most impactful booksfor me actually was the Muscle
and Strength Pyramids by Dr EricHelms and Andy Morgan, and then

(04:25):
I found starting strength andthen I found like Alan Aragon
and Dr Bill Campbell and allthose guys and it kind of led to
a rabbit hole where they're allconnected on podcasts and
YouTube and everything and bookswhere during the pandemic I
started to learn a lot aboutproper strength training and
then later on nutrition and thenthe podcast came out of that

(04:46):
because I was so excited to say,man, you guys, you ever heard
of this stuff?
Like this stuff works.
People, you know I've been ketoand intermittent fasting and
like high reps at the gym andnothing's ever worked for me.
And all of a sudden I foundsomething that worked.
Let me share it.
And then, like six months later, someone said you got to be my
coach.
Like do you do that?
I said I don't know what you'retalking about.
Let me go figure that out.
And so I went and became acoach and so I've been doing

(05:08):
that for like three or fouryears.

Ben Tzeel (05:10):
I was going to say the names you're dropping.
First of all, I've got memorylane going on and second of all,
I spent the time way back likeAlan Aragon, I think I found in
stuff when Lane Norton wascoming out initially.
I'm reading his stuff.
This is part of for peoplelistening, this is part of what
led me to become a dietician andthen eventually go into
diabetes, because I'm learningall this stuff about lifting and

(05:31):
nutrition and then I'mrealizing this all has to apply
to people with diabetes too.
And so you're naming these namesand I'm over here just like
holy smokes, this is justabsolutely insane and so much
fun and I'm just like there's somany things we could do.
And then, with your engineerbrain, I'm like so much offline
I want to talk about.
But besides that, you obviouslywere like, hey, I need to
figure out the body of thesystem.
I've got these names, I've gotthis nutrition background, I've

(05:52):
got this exercise and trainingbackground and it obviously
shaped you to where you areright now.
But with the training goingback to the initial stuff, with
people getting into the gym,they're like, hey, I'm
struggling.
You find out what that fear isor what that concern is, and
let's just say, like we'vetalked to patients, we're like I
don't even want to go into agym.
What would be a reasonablestarting point for someone who's
hey, I know I have diabetes, Iknow I need to do something to

(06:14):
strengthen my body.
What could somebody do?
That would be superstraightforward.
That'd be a very easy startingpoint to start seeing quick wins
.
Man, it's not a friend.
I know an element of liketraining, lifting, periodization
, and we're just like well, wegot to go, we got to start small
and then build our way out.

Yeah, I always like to meet people where they're at
, so I do get this question allthe time and that's why it's
such a hard question because Iknow there's not a one size fits
all answer Literally every day.
You and I used to be kind of adick about it and have my dogma
and have my like this is how youdo it.
You gotta go do startingstrength three by five.
Pick up a barbell, like that iseffective and it is effective,

(06:51):
it's a great tool, but you maynot have access to it, you may
have gym intimidation, you mayhave a history of back problems,
and the list goes on.
So the question again is whatis your goal?
Like I have to start there.
What is your goal?
Are you asking me for a reason?
Do you know the reason?

(07:11):
Like, why do you think this isthe right thing to do?
And in your population it mightbe?
For because I heard you say ithelps with insulin sensitivity,
right?
Is that enough of a driver foryou?
It might be.
It might be life-changing,right?
If that medical issue, butyou're still not going to
believe it until you see it.
So I I'm going to be again.
I have to ask questions of youwhen you can ask yourself, like,
do you have a gym nearby or doyou know what you're doing when
you go there, like, do youunderstand the equipment and
what to do If not?

(07:32):
Personal trainer, a coach?
Like, just start there rightoff the bat.
You have to find a good one.
Reach out to Ben, reach out tome, we'll point point you do a
good one if it's not us, and usethat to learn about the skill
of lifting.
It is a skill.
It's like any skill.
If you're going to pick up aninstrument and learn a clarinet,
like, where do you start?
I don't know, probably find ateacher.

Ben Tzeel (07:52):
Yeah Well, I joke with people with diabetes.
Right, it's the same.
It's the same thing of hey, youget diagnosed, you don't know
where you're starting at, theregoes my camera and there it
comes back.
There, you don't know whereyou're starting at with the with
diabetes, that you have to findsomebody who does know.
And if your doctor says, hey,you need to do this for lifting,
you need to start getting somestrength training in the
adaptation of the body, and howimportant it is, it's just
remarkable.
Like and I know you'llappreciate this given your data

(08:14):
background there's a patient Ican think of vividly, where he
usually lifts four days a week.
You know pretty active guy, youknow late twenties, and his
blood sugars were doing prettysolid.
And he had one week, just oneweek, where he did not lift any
weights at all.
And this is just to illustratefor people from a blood sugar
standpoint no weights, hisaverage blood sugar went up 25
points.
Everything else was the same,food was the same, sleep was the

(08:35):
same, normal day to day, butjust no lifting.
And that was the difference.
And I'm like holy cow 25 points,almost an entire A1C point, and
in that case, from a long-termdiabetes perspective, that's
enough to put somebodypotentially at a much higher
risk of long-term complicationjust from not doing something
that it can doesn't have to takeforever.
So I think, from an efficiencystandpoint, a lot of people get

(08:55):
intimidated.
I got to be in the gym forhours at a time.
Everybody says I have to bethere for 90 minutes or two
hours, and I don't have that.
I barely have 35 minutes.
You know, what could someone doto become more efficient?
So they kind of just if theyget over that, that first hump
of I'm going to try this, thenhow can I be in and out and
efficient, make sure my body'ssafe at the same time?

Yeah, and that's a good one, because it goes to the
question of when people say,can I start with bands or body
weight or dumbbells, like if Ihad those at home, and to the
topic of exercise snacks andbeing efficient from a very
minimalist standpoint.
And so I can go one of twodirections there.
One direction is, if you've gotsome basic equipment at home,
you can probably do somemovement patterns that will load

(09:34):
you up with resistance andchallenge your body enough to
get the stimulus that you'relooking for.
That will start to inch downyour blood sugar and all the
other things.
But you're going to outgrowthem pretty quickly, but at
least it gets you a taste forthat.
And then you can say what do Ineed next, at home or in the gym
?
If you're going to a gym and youdon't have a home gym because
that's another hack we shouldget into for efficiency a big

(09:55):
hack it's you can lift two orthree days a week and I was
looking at the insulin researchas well and like one to two
sessions a week is almost enoughto give you a stimulus, but you
also have to create consistencyin a routine around it.
So I do like the idea of likeMonday, wednesday, friday, every
week, for example, for 45minutes 30 to 45 minutes and you

(10:15):
could do three lifts in amoderate rep range and get all
the intensity, volume andfrequency you need as a beginner
for the next six to 12 monthsto make massive progress and get
what you need as a beginner forthe next six to 12 months to
make massive progress and getwhat you need.
So just the premise that youeven have to spend that much
time is busted when you realizethere's an efficient, minimalist
way to do it that gets you theresult.

Ben Tzeel (10:33):
And I feel like people are.
So, oh my God, I have to bethere and do 15 exercises Like
no, just pick the ones that arethe best bang for your buck,
that are going to give you themost results from.
Again, we always talk insulinsensitivity, but what's going to
do that the most?
Your compound lifts, right.
Your squats technically.
Your deadlifts right, thingsthat are using multiple joints,
which we can get into that in asecond too, but those types of

(10:53):
lifts are going to do a lot morethan I'm going to stand here
and do a bunch of bicep curls,which everybody thinks of when
they think about the gym,especially when they don't go
too often.

Yeah, I take it for granted, but I have to, like
you, hammer home that messageabout compound lifts, movement
patterns.
It comes down to what do humansdo with their bodies in real
space, like with gravity onearth?
And it's we bend to pick thingsup, that's the deadlift.
We squat, we push, we pullright, and we pull in a couple
of different ways, you knowoverhead and pushing vertically.

(11:21):
So what accomplishes thatefficiently?
That uses the most muscle mass,that uses the most natural
range of motion, and that's,like you said, the big compound
lifts.
Ideally with a barbell.
And I say that because barbellis very safe, it's symmetrical,
it's easy to load progressivelyand you can have spotter arms
and things like that to make itsafe, even if you're by yourself
.
You know a lot of people getintimidated like, oh my God, a

(11:43):
barbell sounds like hardcorepower lifter.
You know I'm going to go do themachine, but you're going to
save time, you're going to beable to load it, you're going to
be able to progress sessionafter session easily by doing
those lifts.

Ben Tzeel (11:54):
Agree, totally, I think people from like to your
point from a barbells are scary,dumbbells are scary.
They're also missing that whenyou're doing this, even if
you're doing, for example, hey,I'm doing some sort of you know,
bench press with a dumbbell,well, you're getting your chest,
but you're also getting all theshoulder stabilizers and those
little muscles are so hard towork outside of that.
So again that bang for yourbuck.
And the more muscles you'rerecruiting, technically diabetes

(12:16):
wise, the more you're going tobe saying, hey, I'm now
sensitized, not just for thenext 24 hours, but some people
get benefits up to 72 hours and,like what you were saying with
the research, if it's that bigof an increase, why would you
not do it to basically say I'mgoing to keep my blood sugar
better by spending 30 minutes afew times a week.
You could probably do 30minutes without even thinking
about it.
You're probably scrolling onyour phone for at least 30

(12:37):
minutes a day, if not longer.
I think the average personspending four or five hours on
their phone or on TV per day andI'm over here like I would lose
my mind at that point.

Yeah, it is crazy that.
So I can think of a client thatI've been working with for a
short time now who is prettyjacked on his own and yet he's
been inefficient at gettingthere and after like 10 years of
lifting we now have himstripping back to just four days
.
So for him he was going sevendays a week, just four days

(13:05):
doing a very simple I'll call itlike a power building style
program with waves.
It gets a little morecomplicated for him versus a
beginner, but he is like man.
I never knew that you couldactually like push harder and
harder over time like this.
Even though he had been able tobuild muscle all these years
slowly, now he's like, okay, Iunderstand what this means to

(13:25):
actually load it up efficientlyfor my time and have the time to
recover because he was missingthat.
He was missing the rest inbetween and that's where
everything responds and thestimulus occurs.

Ben Tzeel (13:35):
Well, what do you think then for supersets like
given efficiency, because somepeople are like, hey, I've got
30 minutes, I want to get in.
You know you said three, butmaybe I want to get in five
exercises.
What if I went one exerciseright to the next and then
rested for a little bit?

I actually I used to be against them until I found
that their science for there'ssome, there's a study from 2014,
I think and then literally lastyear, the mass team you know
Eric Helms and those guys puttogether a really nice review of
like a meta analysis sort ofdeal and they showed that for
isolation and accessory typelifts, supersets have the same

(14:09):
outcome as not supersetting forhypertrophy.
So you can save a ton of timewith supersets when it comes to
smaller lifts, especially whenyou're doing antagonist
supersets, so like biceps,triceps, right or quad tams and
I actually love that as a hack,not for everything.
So if you're doing like sixlifts for the day and your first
two are big compound lifts, youwouldn't superset those, but

(14:30):
then you can superset your foursmaller lifts.
So I actually am a fan of thoseand I didn't used to be.

Ben Tzeel (14:34):
I was the exact same boat as you.
I used to be like ew, why wouldI super?
That sounds terrible.
And then about, I think it wasabout four or five years ago I
actually you probably know whoEric Cressy the name, yeah yeah.
So I'd been following him sinceI was in high school because he
did all the baseball stuff andthat was my come up and so
eventually I was like I'm goingto just work with someone on
their team while it's COVID.
You know, I have access to abarbell, but that's like I have

(14:59):
some plates and barbells to seewhat I can do.
And he had everythingprogrammed in like A1, b1, or
not A1, b1, a1, a2, a3, or likeB1, b2.
So it was all like tri-sets orsuper sets and I'm like this is
really weird.
And I started doing it and Irealized I kind of like this.
Everything got so much shorterand so much more efficient.

I'm like I can be for those hacks all the time.
In fact, the program I'mrunning right now is by Jeffrey
Verdi of Schofield.
It's called the WayjackedMachine.
It's actually for beginners,but I'm tweaking it a little bit
like to challenge myself,because it does two things.
It just does top set back offset, which means you're doing
two sets instead of three.
Most people think I got to dothree sets, like that's the
magic number, but you canactually go super heavy, modest

(15:45):
rep range, like, say, four tosix or six to eight, and then
the second set.
You drop the weight a littlebit, crank up the reps and then
you do a third AMRAP 15 secondslater.
So you did so it's.
It still ends up being two sets, but the AMRAP makes you go to
failure.
Right and you and by doingsupersets, 45 minutes in and out

(16:12):
for what would normally take 70or 80 minutes.

Ben Tzeel (16:15):
I was that last AMRAP set and if someone's listening
you're like what's an AMRAP?
Amrap is as many reps aspossible, so whatever you got
left in the tank, you are justgoing and there's a ton of
different methodologies fordifferent types of reps.
But that sounds brutal.
It is, it is.

It's brutal but also is a good learning tool.
So if you're listening andyou're like I don't know what
RPE 10 is, even for a littlemovement like a bicep curl, do
your bicep curls and go tofailure, then stop, then count
10 seconds and then get more tofailure and you'll be like, oh
wow, I could probably do if youcould do like two more, you
probably did it right.
But if you do like eight more,that shows you weren't even
close to failure.

Ben Tzeel (16:52):
That's the value and for failure.
If you're listening, it's likewhat is failure?
So, whether again, this couldbe related to bands, this could
be body weight, this could bewhatever is.
When you're doing an exerciseand you do it so many times that
you effectively cannot doanother one, you physically
cannot do a complete rep ofanother one and to train to that
point, of course, from ametabolic damage perspective,
ideally you're gonna really getto the edge of what your muscle

(17:13):
can do, and it should allow yourmuscle to then adapt better,
grow better and then ultimatelygrow more, which, for again,
people with diabetes.
Just having muscle mass atbaseline is amazing because, of
course, the lifting, the activelifting itself, is going to help
from an insulin sensitivitystandpoint, but then living with
just more muscle in generalwill also make you more insulin
sensitive at baseline becausemuscle is a more metabolically
active tissue.

(17:33):
So when the doctor's saying,hey, go, do some weights, and
they're not telling you what todo or how many times to go or
anything like that, justsomething is going to help you,
because by getting stronger itdoesn't matter how old you are.
We've had patients that are intheir seventies who are
literally rock climbing anddoing all sorts of crazy work
while living with diabetes,doing amazing because they're
able to say, hey, I've got moremuscle in my body.

(17:54):
My blood sugar, I think our A1Cis like 5.7.
Like that's almost non-diabetesrange.
So it is possible.
It doesn't matter how old youare, it doesn't matter what
you're doing with diabetes.
Highly recommend getting intothe lifting and I want to really
just go all in on the nerdystuff because I feel like I
never get to talk about thisstuff and it's fun, and there
are going to be people that arelike wow, this is amazing.
So, with methodology, yourfavorite split for lifting.

(18:17):
I'd be very curious what youprefer and then what you've seen
, because obviously everyone'sgot their own philosophy and if
we're going for efficiency for asplit, what would be your top
choice?

Yeah, if you're a beginner, there's no question
that three day full body iswhere it's at because of the
efficiency and the frequency.
Don't confuse that, though,with like a more advanced three
day full body where you're doingdifferent lifts each day.
You're literally doing the samekinds of lifts almost every
session and going up like you'resquatting every session and
going up in weight every session.
Because you can.
I can't do that.
I can't go five pounds on mysquat Monday, wednesday, friday.

(18:48):
I would love to, but it's notgoing to happen.
So once you get to thatintermediate level, I just love
the classic four day upper lower.
I really do.
However, that's you asked for asplit, and I guess the question
could be asked differently, inthat the same split can have
like five different approachesto progression with that split
Right.
So upper lower for me would be,you know, upper body Monday,

(19:09):
lower body Tuesday, and thenWednesday, thursday, the same
thing.
A very simple approach forintermediates in that sense
would be to use the four mainlifts to use to focus on, like
squat on Monday, deadlift onThursday, or that's lower, but
you know what I mean.
Tuesday, friday and then Monday, thursday.
You could do bench and anoverhead press, for example, and

(19:30):
then have all your developmentand accessory work support that.
But I also like mixing it up,like today I did legs and arms
and you know another day I mightdo back and arms right.
Like it's kind of a weirdoverlap between the days,
depending on what's recoverable,so like your biceps can recover
literally the next day.
So if you're trying tospecialize and get bigger guns,

(19:50):
you might do it three days.
You might do bicep work threeof those days.
So upper lower is great.
Push-fall legs I'm less a fanof just because it gets a little
more complicated to get theright level of frequency in
there for most people.
But if it's well-written it'sfine.
And then one of my favoritesplits of all time that's a
four-day is called the conjugatemethod, the west side barbell
method by Louis Simmons, andthis is a method used by guys on

(20:15):
gear that were massive powerlifters that will never be in
their world.
I love the history of thisstuff though, man, it's fun to
talk about.
But their adapted method ispretty simple.
You've got two max effort daysand two dynamic effort days, and
on the max effort days you aremaxing out one of the main lifts
every single week, but you'rerotating for like six weeks
between the variance of the lift.

(20:35):
You can't max out your backsquat Monday for six weeks in a
row.
You just can't.
That's too systemicallyfatiguing.
But you can max out your backsquat, then you can max out your
front squat, then you max outyour box squat, then you can max
out your you know squat and thebody's perceives that as enough
variation that it's not nearlyas fatiguing and it's more
recoverable.
It's fascinating.

(20:55):
So you do that Monday, tuesdayis like lower upper, I think,
kind of the opposite, I believe.
And then Thursday, friday isdynamic effort, where you focus
on speed and volume.
So then you're doing like 10sets of two far sub maximally,
like 65% or 70% of a bench press.
Anyway, I'm getting into weeds,but like those are my favorite
splits and yet there are amillion more that work

(21:17):
effectively.

Ben Tzeel (21:18):
And that's the thing that's important, to mention it
really out of the goal, right,you could pick the three full
body ones.
If you're just listening tothis, you're like I'm just
trying to get into a trueroutine, but there's really no
wrong answer, except fortraining the same thing
consecutively, because rest isso important, and, to your point
, with what you like.
I love four days upper lower,and for me, I'll throw cardio in

(21:40):
there, which I feel like weshould probably address at some
point, because cardio is kind ofa big deal, which I don't like
it, but I have to do it right.
So, with rest though, becausewhile we're on that topic, rest
and your body, you know notfrying your nervous system
effectively what would you sayfrom a rest perspective If
someone's like, hey, I'mstarting out, or I've been at
this for a while?
Like, do you typically recommend, like, a deload week for people

(22:01):
to be more chill?
Do you recommend, just straightup, not training certain days
of the week or, you know,certain weeks of the year?
I've heard of people doing 10weeks in a row and taking a week
off.

Like what have you found to be, in your experience,
the best from a recoverystandpoint?
I think the question is whatbenefits your recovery the most?
And is it your training program?
Because I think sleep and foodactually go up above that and we
often go to trainingmodifications.
In fact, the idea of a deloadagain.
I used to be a fan of deloads.
I'm less and less so, the moreI realize you can intelligently
program to avoid them altogetherand to kind of build in the
recovery, either through wavesor resets or what have you,

(22:40):
which are kind of like deloads,but without calling them that
and without like half-assingyour intensity that week right,
which a lot of people do duringdeloads.
So you keep the muscle mass,you keep the stimulus, but you
still get recoverability.
But I seriously do think peopledon't eat enough and they don't
sleep enough, and I would lookat that first.
If the assumption is, hey,eating at least my maintenance

(23:06):
calories, I'm eating plenty ofcarbs, I am getting six and a
half to seven hours of sleep atleast, because, let's be honest,
most people are not gettingtheir eight hours Then I would
say okay, if your low back isgetting really fatigued or your
shoulder is starting to botheryou.
Is that why you're asking Areyou feeling sore?
Are you feeling like everysession is a burn?
You shouldn't feel like thingsare burning and things are sore

(23:30):
all the time.
You should feel pretty goodgetting into the next session if
you're recovered and if you'renot, that's telling you there's
either.
Probably too much volume, I wantto say.
But it could be that your formis bad on a certain lift, you
know, start to get thattendonitis because you know your
grip is wrong on your squat,like little things like that.
We were joking about physicaltherapy before the call and,
like those guys are the mastersat understanding biomechanics

(23:51):
and a lot of people have littlethings that are off, it's not a
big deal usually because thehuman body is great at adapting,
but if it's enough out of sync,you know, if you're constantly
knees too far forward on yoursquats and then you start
getting achy knees, there'sprobably a connection there and
that's going to hold you backand also impede your recovery
because it's just sappingresources, it's stressing you

(24:12):
out, it's giving youinflammation, all of that stuff.

Ben Tzeel (24:14):
Well, and I was going to say with the sleep aspect,
whenever people ask what's thenumber one thing that's most
underrated for blood sugars, Ialways say sleep, like blood
sugars alone, and then that'llsend you on a roller coaster
where the recovery from theworkouts aren't going to be as
good because your blood sugar isprobably running higher,
because you're insulin resistantnow, and then everything's
moving slower, the nutrientsaren't getting where they need
to go to help you recover faster, and then everybody's always

(24:35):
like oh, I just want to have mynumbers.
Good, but sleep.
Literally I feel like sleep andthen eating enough, and I would
say from our practice, 90% ofpeople are not eating enough.
Yes, I mean yes, and I don'tthink I'm sure you've seen the
same thing where just people andI would imagine your more
general population versusdiabetes, but they think, oh,
less is better, I'll lose weightbetter, but that's just not the

(24:57):
case.

Yeah, they're either not eating enough or I
have quite a bit of clients whothey're eating enough and their
macros are skewed for what theyneed for recovery.
Like some people love theirprotein.
I mean, usually people don'tget enough protein, but a lot of
guys, especially up in the 220,250, 300 grams of protein, but
a lot of guys, especially up inthe 220, 250, 300 grams of
protein I'm like, okay, dude,you've got 300 grams of protein
and 120 grams of carbs.
Let's balance that a littlemore and still see what happens.
And I know you're afraid ofgaining weight and you guess

(25:23):
what?
You're going to gain some scaleweight because you're going to
have more glycogen andintracellular fluid and got
content from the carbs.
So it's not fat.
You're going to gain that.
Let's just accept it.
But tell me how you feel onceyou do that.
And invariably it's like, oh myGod, within two days I'm like,
wow, I'm getting more reps, I'mfeeling better, like all of a
sudden the 3 pm energy crash isgone.
And that translates to what youasked about, which is recovery

(25:52):
and your ability to perform inthe gym.
So you mentioned cardio.
You know like doing too muchcardio can impede recovery, but
also people aren't doing enoughrecovery focused movement, and I
don't just mean walkingphantasm you talk about it all
the time, I'm sure.
Yes, a study that I just cameacross.
It's from 2022.

(26:12):
And I did a podcast about itcoming out very soon.
It might be out by the timethis is out on walking snacks,
getting up for two minutes every30 minutes, and they compared
that to being sedentary across alike seven and a half hour
window.
So like sitting all day versuswalking every half hour, versus
15 body weight squats every halfhour.
And the most impactful positivechange was the walking.

(26:36):
And what they found is sitting,compared to an average person,
reduces muscle protein synthesis, reduces blood volume,
increases insulin resistancefrom the sitting alone, like it
has a net effect, right.
Conversely, adding in thewalking has a net opposite
effect, like beyond the baseline, of increasing muscle protein
synthesis massively.

(26:57):
So there's some fascinatingmechanisms, ben, related to mTOR
right, which is the signalingpathway for muscle building,
muscle protein synthesis, forthe blood flow, for the insulin
sensitivity.
All of it just from breaking upyour sitting, like that is an
easy hack for people to do.

Ben Tzeel (27:13):
So I need to just make sure I understand.
So you're saying two minutes ofwalking per half hour of
sitting.
Effectively, that's it and thatwas wow.
So just doing the math on that,I'm just doing this.
So it's four minutes per hourcompared to seven hours of just
straight sitting.
So we're talking like half anhour total of walking.
Yes, so if someone is, if youare listening to this and you
are hearing that all you've gotto do is just get off your butt

(27:35):
every now and then and thatthere was positive impacts on,
yes, your ability to recovermuscle wise, but also your blood
sugars will be better just byvirtue of walking for two
minutes every half hour 28minutes than having a two minute
timer and just saying, hey,let's go if it's possible for at

(27:55):
work, because we talk about OK,after a meal, are you going to
walk or are you just going towalk in general to hit a certain
number of steps and we'vetalked about a lot of times on
here you sit on an airplane, youcan't move for three hours,
your blood sugar rises becauseyou can't move or you're in a
car.
This solves a lot.

And I just text to do the study.
Yeah, it's by more at all, 2022.
It's like shocking.
It's shocking 47% averageincrease in myofibrillar protein
synthesis from adding in thosesuper easy snacks.
And I actually downloaded, andI downloaded an app called Step
Stand Up from the app store liketwo weeks ago after I learned
about this and I'm doing itmyself now more because it's

(28:31):
just that powerful.

Ben Tzeel (28:32):
That's what I feel.
Like that, if there's anytakeaway, if there's only one
takeaway, I think it has to bethat because that's going to
help blood sugar and your muscle.
If you don't do that, I don'tknow what to tell you.
Like you're literally just notdoing yourself any favors, Cause
it's also not like you'rewalking, it's not like, oh,

(28:55):
every 30 same time.
It's so important to know,because this is any anyone
listening to this could do this,whether you're seven years old
or whether you're 77 years old.
Like that is just wild.
And piecing all of this togetherwith you know my discussion
about the patient earlier whodidn't train for a week and his
blood sugars went up.
And with this you're going tobe resistant If you don't stand
up.
Just get up and just move justa teeny little bit.
And then also, I would imagineyou know recovery wise, it's

(29:18):
going to help because of the Ialways call it MPS, but muscle
protein synthesis, at least whatI say.
And everyone's like what areyou talking about?
And I'm like, oh, sorry.
And you bring up mTOR.
I'm like rapid myosin, yes, yes, of all my grants, oh, but yeah
.
But so back to, I guess, if wego to cardio just in general as
a topic, we kind of glossed overit before.
I don't love cardio.
Some people love cardio andthey're blessed and I'm grateful

(29:39):
for them.

I'm with you, man, I'm with you.
I don't like like justmetronomic cardio.

Ben Tzeel (29:43):
Yeah, I'm just like, and some people say, oh, I do
cardio because I walk, andthat's fair, but I feel like
doing some sort of you know,moderate to vigorous cardio once
a week diabetes or not, I feellike is at least going to be
important, because we do wantour hearts strong.
So, from what you've seen, whatyou've personally experienced,
what tends to be A your favorite, but then B what you find most
effective for duration.

Yeah, my new favorite that I think is highly
effective for lifters issprinting, and we can talk about
the protocol.
I actually stole it right fromBrad Kearns, who co-wrote a book
with Mark Sisson called Born toWalk.
Talking about which was like acounter to born to run and the
idea that we actually aredesigned to walk and most people
shouldn't be running unlessthey are in it for competitive

(30:25):
reasons, and they really learnhow to run properly with their
feet and the right foot, and allthat Because otherwise we know
it's the highest and one of thehighest injury, if not the
highest injury sports other thanlike soccer.
By the way, lifting is thelowest injury sport, just to
throw that out there.
So here's the thing I used torun a lot.
I used to train for like halfmarathons.
I didn't actually compete inthem, but I would get to long
mileage week after week and Iremember the shin splints and I

(30:46):
remember the hunger and Iremember like it not helping my
body composition or weight inany way, and we see that all the
time.
So, conversely, we know thatwalking is tremendously valuable
and we can make walking harder,and so my first step for your
audience is like baby steps, youknow, if you're already walking
, how do you make that harder?
So it's kind of a form ofcardio that helps your VO2 max

(31:07):
and your heart rate, and I wouldadd rucking.
I would add a rucksack to themix.
Right Weighted vests are allthe rage now in the menopause
crowd, for whatever reason onsocial media, but I like just as
classic backpack on the back.
Inclines walking faster.
All of that is going to.
You know, burn a little morecalories, increase your heart
rate more, get you closer tothat zone too.
If that's important to you, Iwill say like just getting 10 to

(31:29):
12 or 10K ish, seven to 10 Ksteps a day, plus lifting, is
enough to have superbcardiovascular health.
Like that is enough to have abe in the elite not the elite,
but like being the 5%.
But if you want that like elitelevel sprinting or anything
that has a concentric but not aneccentric movement in the

(31:50):
cardio method is veryrecoverable.
So what I mean by that isrunning has an eccentric because
you're constantly slamming onthe ground and loading against
gravity and you're tearingmuscle fibers and and and and.
A bike, an assault bike, aprowler, push a prowler or sled,
pull swimming, you knowanything that's like you're
pushing but not nothing's comingback at you, right?

(32:12):
You're not doing burpees,you're not doing CrossFit, and
apologies, if you love all thatstuff, there's a place for it,
but seriously it can mess withyour recovery.
So anything like that could begreat.
But I like sprinting, andsprinting not just on flat
ground but even using a bikeonce or twice a week.
The protocol looks like thisit's 10 to 20 seconds all out,
six times the recovery, four toeight sets.

(32:34):
That's it Simple.
So if you can do a minute, ifyou can do 10 seconds which is
going to be hard the first timeyou do it 10 seconds, you rest
at least a minute.
You try to get four to eightsets.
You're probably only going toget like four or five the first
time.
Next time you do it now you getto.
And that's a fantastic guy.

(32:59):
He did a whole episode withBrad on that topic and I did my
own later on sprinting.
It's awesome.

Ben Tzeel (33:04):
Tell me, have you tried a wind gate bike?
No, what is that?
Oh my God, I don't know if theymake them anymore.
So way back in the day this is.
I don't think I've ever eventalked about selling remotely.
Closest way back, I used to doexercise, science, research when
I was an undergrad and they hadone you described where you're
pedaling really fast but thenthey like I don't know if it'd
be another person or someone,but we like push this thing and

(33:25):
then this stack of weights justfalls and it makes your
resistance on the bike like 40times harder than it was before
and they can measure your likepower output and all sorts of
other stuff.
It was insane Cause like youthink, oh, I'm pedaling, and
then suddenly boom, now justmake it the maximum effort
you've ever had to go whilethere's weight there.
It was miserable.
It was like miserable but alsoamazing at the same time for

(33:46):
people who love this stuff, likeus, because I'm like this is so
cool, yet also so weird.
But it made me really happywhen you're like I do intervals
or, like you know, sprintintervals, so I'm like that's
the only cardio I can tolerate,because otherwise I go nut like
yeah no, I hear you, man like.

I even did a vo2 max test and I hated it because
they make you just keep runningand running until failure.
I'm like this is not what Iwant to do.

Ben Tzeel (34:07):
Can we be done, please Like I.

Mental it's mental.

Ben Tzeel (34:12):
Yeah, incline walking , I think, is a great one for
people, or if you live in ahilly area, which I certainly
don't, but you know, inclinewalking Fantastic, incline
walking, fantastic.
And then I for me, like, I'llpersonally do intervals, I'll do
treadmill I don't love it, butI'll go slight climb, but I'll
go a minute on, a minute off,just because I want to try to
stretch a little more.
And then I'll only do like,like you said, I think you, you

(34:33):
said four to like six sets.
I go up to, I think, eighttotal and I'm like that's good,
I'm good at that.
I'll go fast for one, I'll gochill for another, and, and then
I did it, I'm good, I did mycardio for the week.
I can incline walk the rest ofthe time and I'm good.
It's just.
And I think having that isimportant, I think because from
especially again, diabetes wise,because there's a propensity of
, hey, you could be at risk forcertain cardiovascular things

(34:54):
you do want to make sure yourheart is as strong as possible
and lifting, lifting for you.
But having that really specific, hey, I go harder intensity
once a week.
Or maybe you play basketball,maybe do something, some sort of
sport, some sort of I'm raisingmy heart rate up during this
concerted short time frame ismore than what most people will
get and, honestly, it's all youneed.
Everyone thinks, oh, it's be anhour run.

(35:14):
No, you don't do shit for anhour.

No, I would add to that like track, track what you
care about, like, obviously,here the diabetes world.
You're tracking a lot ofmetrics, but even day-to-day
metrics with your wearables,because VO2 max is not something
that the average person cantrack.
But what can you track?
You can track your restingheart rate.
That's a very nice, really highproxy indicator of your heart
health, to be honest.
And here's an interesting story.

(35:37):
So I remember a guy, jerry,who's a longtime lifter, lots of
muscle mass.
If you saw him you'd be like Iwouldn't want to be even
thinking of starting a fightwith this guy.
Right, like just big guy, bigbeard, gentle as a bear, as
teddy bear, that kind of persona.
Right, he was a lawyer and hesat down all day and he got
3,000 steps a day.
So we started working together.
I said, man, this is likelow-hanging fruit, let's crank

(35:58):
that up.
He's committed, right,long-time lifter, he knows how
to just do it, what I tell himto do, but not every client's
like that.
And he cranked it up to 8,000steps and within weeks his heart
rate dropped by 15 beats aminute his resting heart rate,
because it was hovering aroundthe 70s or almost 80.
It wasn't great and he hadexcess body weight to lose.
But he hadn't even done thatyet.

(36:19):
Later on we lost body fat andthen everything else improved
even further.
But just the walking man likegot him down to you know like 50
, 55 for a big guy with extraweight and muscle.

Ben Tzeel (36:29):
Yeah, Well, and walking to that point too, I
don't think I ever tracked ituntil COVID hit and I realized
I'm like I don't go anywhere,how many steps am I getting?
And I, you know, you carry yourphone everywhere with you and I
look I'm at like 2,400 steps,and so I started getting really
religious with it at that point.
So then I started setting thebar a little higher and a little
higher.
Now you know, I'm probablyaveraging close to nine or

(36:50):
10,000, which is great.
But just that little teeny tweakcan, in combination with
getting, ironically I'd startputting like my computer most of
the time up, and so I'd haveone of those standing desks and
so I would bat, plus the steps,I lost probably like six pounds
just from that, nothing else.
And I'm like and it's not likeI'm putting all this effort in
or craziness in, and it's.
I think that's something peopleneed to remember is it doesn't

(37:11):
have to be difficult, it's justlittle teeny things that you're
adjusting and just like diabetes, you tweak a little bit here,
you're tweaking a little bitthere, and suddenly you look up
and your average blood sugar is130 and you're feeling great,
your A1C is great and your heartrate's great.
And your doctor says why areyou even here, like you're good
man?

Yeah, I think two fun facts about that in.
You know the component ofmetabolism that we call NEAT,
right, non-exercise activitythermogenesis is walking is a
big part of that.
There's a landmark study thatwas done I can't remember the

(37:49):
guy that was done, I can'tremember the guy's name, is a
weird name, starts with an F,but a landmark study that showed
a 2000 calorie difference orvariance between the most
sedentary individuals and themost active individuals.
Everything else controlled,like these weren't even lifters
Okay, these are, you know, yousit at a desk all day versus
you're a shop clerk, versusyou're in construction.
And they found something likean 800 calorie jump for the shop
clerks, shop clerks, and thenanother 1200 calorie jump for
the construction workers, justfrom their jobs, right, just
from moving all day.
And so it shows you howpowerful that lever is.

(38:13):
That's one fun fact, just toshow you how much control you
have over it.
The other fun fact is thatduring fat loss, right when
you're trying to lose weight, ormaybe you're doing it
accidentally we unconsciouslyreduce all of that, like people
don't realize how much youreduce it, and you can kind of
tell a step count.
But it's not all.
It's.
The story isn't all in the stepcount, because some of it is
the lots more sitting, lots lessfidgeting, you know, and then

(38:34):
all the cascade of negativeeffects that come from that we
just alluded to with the twominute snack things.
So if you are in a caloriedeficit and trying to lose fat,
like, consciously andintentionally, incorporate
movement, because that'll be agame changer.

Ben Tzeel (38:46):
Well, and I think to your point where you're saying
things just kind of shut downthat you don't expect.
It goes back to the sleep thingagain, where I tell people I'm
like sleep is important forblood sugar and they're like,
well, why?
I'm like you're more insulinresistant.
But if you dig deeper into that, it goes back to subconsciously
you don't want to be movingbecause you're tired, so you're
sitting more, so you're sittingmore.
Therefore, you're going to getmore resistant.
You know, like you said now,imagine you're in a deficit and

(39:09):
you didn't sleep well.
Well then that's just doublethe fun.
And I think you've probablyseen the study where the people
that are the interrupted sleepin a deficit versus the people
that slept through.
Oh yeah, the amount of muscleyou lose versus the amount of
fat you lose If you don't sleepwell or you get horrible sleep
while you're in a deficit,you're going to lose
predominantly muscle.
And that, to me, just that.
That changed a lot for me.
When I read that I was likeholy smokes, this is terrible.

Yeah, actually, on that note, the two minute
exercise snacks also led togreater lean mass preservation.
But what you're talking aboutwith sleep man, tell me if you
know all the links I'm sure youdo with the diabetes research.
But in addition to the leanmass loss, what you said, two
other things.
One is it ramps up your hungerhormones just because your body
is like, okay, you have so manyresources, you're depriving me

(39:55):
here, I'm going to make up forit over here.
You need to eat, and that's one.
And then the visceral fatstorage.
Even all things equal, ifyou're both like in two groups
that gain weight during that aregaining weight and one is sleep
deprived, they're going tostore that fat in their visceral
, you know dangerous abdominalfat.
And then that ties into insulinas well and inflammatory

(40:16):
markers too in the blood.

Ben Tzeel (40:17):
Yeah Well, and then once those inflammatory markers
come in, if you're type twolistening well, then your
insulin signal is going to bekaput, or at least a lot less
effective than it usually is.
And if you're type one, thenit's like, okay, the insulin's
there, but it's not going towork as effectively.
So, either way, it's just anabsolute shit sandwich, to say
it really nicely.
So like, sleep is so importantand no one gets why I say it.
But this is why, man, this iswild.

(40:38):
I'm loving this stuff and Ialso love that we can just nerd
out and go in this major depthon these rabbit holes with all
these different protocols, andI'm like we're probably just
scratching the surface of whatwe could be doing.

Oh, just scratching the surface.
So many mechanisms under there,man.

Ben Tzeel (40:49):
I was going to say, and then I'm over here, I'm just
like we could go all the waydown into the biochem stuff too,
and start doing that wrongthing.

man, all the haters are going to come out.

Ben Tzeel (41:03):
Well, I was going to say I'm over here.
I'm like do I do it or do I not?
Or do I save it for another one?
Then part of me is like Ialmost wanted to save it for
another one.
We can just go super, have anerd edition episode, or we're
just only science and nothing.
They'll be like this is thegreatest thing ever.
But what would you say?
I feel like wrapping up wise.

(41:24):
What would you say is probablylike the big takeaway outside of
the snacks I think the walkingsnacks is.
That, to me, was justabsolutely massive.
But what would you say?
Biggest takeaway for someonewho's listening, who's saying,
hey, I love all this stuff, Iwant to get you know, I'm
started, I want to get reallyinto it.
I want to go from that firstlevel to that second level that,
hey, I'm actually enjoying this, I'm strong, I see the returns.

(41:46):
What would you say is thebiggest thing that they're going
to need to do to get that jumpto happen?

Okay, so clarify, we're saying not beginners,
we're saying people who aredabbling.

Ben Tzeel (41:55):
They listened.
They're like I'm supermotivated, I love this.
They start going.
Now they're going three times aweek.
They've done it for threemonths Like I want to get to
that next level.
They're starting to see some ofthe returns but they haven't
seen like that huge jump yet.
What's going to help them makethat jump?

Yeah, I think they got to tie it to something that
is super meaningful for them,and I say that because the vast
majority of people can't liftfor a long time.
For its own sake, I think, likeI think not everybody is a
lifter, let lifter.
Let's just be honest.
They're not just in it.
I am like I could just lift andnot care why.
I just love doing it.
But if you have whether it's asport or for physique reasons or

(42:29):
for your health reasons, likewith diabetes, you guys have a
great why.
Right, you have the bloodmarkers you can track over time.
I would start there, becausethat's going to lead to the next
question of okay, how do I?
What kind of training programshould I look for?
How can I it up?
I'm a big fan of like notsticking with one thing for a
huge amount of time.
I don't want to program hop,but like I'm not going to go

(42:49):
longer than, say, 12 to 24 weeksbefore I look for a different
approach, if only to get thevariety and the variance and the
stimulus to kind of, you know,strengthen up those weak muscles
and give me a little bit ofdifferent exposure to movement
patterns and help with my skilland all that fun stuff.
So look at it as like alifelong process of learning and

(43:09):
personal growth.
And then follow my podcast.
That's what I'm going to say.
To do is follow my podcast, man.
You'll learn a lot that way too.

Ben Tzeel (43:16):
That was going to be.
My next thing is when peoplewant to learn more and go into
the weeds on this stuff andthey're like Ben I love diabetes
, but I need to listen tosomething else too.
Where what is?
I mean, it's obviously on thescreen, but if someone's
listening to this instead ofwatching it, what is the podcast
and where can they find it?

Yeah, it's called Wits and Weights.
It's on all platforms.
I'm sure we'll include a linkand I can even throw you some of
the cool episodes we referredto here about like sprinting and
whatnot.
What you're going to find istwo things.
You're going to find a wholelibrary that can feel
overwhelming of really goodstuff, and so I want you to
reach out to me and say, philipman, you've got 400 episodes.
Where do I even begin?
And I'll ask you a question togive you an episode.

(43:51):
And then, secondly, you'regoing to hear episodes where I
just nerd out on stuff that Ifeel like no one's going to care
about, but I care about, andthen people say that was my
favorite episode, like I justdid one about the argument that
calories aren't real.
Have you ever heard thisargument, ben?
I don't know if I have now See,it's a tease this argument and I
get them on like YouTube andstuff occasionally.
They're like well, calories arejust an abstract measure, like

(44:14):
we don't eat calories.
We eat food and like, okay, Ihad to do an episode about that
and so it gets all into like thehistory of engineering and
science and why we measurethings, and like the proxies for
you know energy and horsepower,and like kilowatts and all this
stuff and how that led to uslearning about calories and why
calories are so important todayand a huge game changer if you

(44:34):
can understand how many caloriesyou burn, which is a mystery to
so many people.
Ben, it's a mystery.
Oh yeah, that's like the numberone unknown people have is I
don't really know how manycalories I burn.
Are you telling me that'simportant?
Yes, it's important.
So, anyway, that's a diatribeon like what you're going to
find on my show.

Ben Tzeel (44:48):
I was going to say that that conversation.
I'm over here just like peopledon't know that a calorie is.
You know when you burn and it,you know, turns the water up.
One.
And then second, I'm like Idon't think people realize that
calories on a label are really athousand.

I don't think Kilocalories, capital calories.

Ben Tzeel (45:06):
Yeah, it's just oh, man yeah.

You know what it is Because we can do a whole
separate episode about myths.
What it is if people arefrustrated.
If you're frustrated, you'vetried to say, lose weight and
people told you need to be in acalorie deficit.
You're like I am in a caloriedeficit and I'm not losing
weight.
You just now, in your head,violated the principle that
calories matter.
Yeah, but in reality that's notthe problem.
The problem is you actuallydon't know how many calories you

(45:30):
burn and you don't know howmany calories you're eating most
likely too.

Ben Tzeel (45:32):
And metabolism is probably in the toilet and
there's oh man, that'll be wherewe need to do another.

Yeah.

Ben Tzeel (45:37):
We need to do a myth one.
We need to do a fat fat lossone.
Those are fun, man.
Those are fun, so much fun.
But no, I'm so grateful, philip, to have you on here.
I'm going to say, yeah, I waslike, cause my dad gum camera,
there we go.
I'm so excited that we got todo this.

This has been amazing, definitely need to do
another one of these.
This is so fun, and that was myconversation with Ben Zeal from
your diabetes insider podcast.
We had such a blast nerding outabout strength training,
metabolic health, all thefascinating research on movement
and blood sugar management thatis applicable to everyone.
If you want to dive deeper intohis content, check out his

(46:13):
podcast, your Diabetes Insider,in your app or click the link in
the show notes.
I think a lot of his insightsare really valuable for anyone
who's trying to manage yourblood sugar better.
And speaking of metabolic health, I just released a new video on
YouTube that perfectlycomplements today's conversation
.
It is all about how to stopprediabetes and insulin
resistance without cutting carbs.

(46:33):
It is based on the longerepisode that came out, and I now
have a YouTube channel withshorter videos that get right to
the point in about five to 10minutes, if that is your thing,
if you have a short attentionspan, which I do or just looking
for a quick hit reminderrefresher where I break down
evidence-based strategies thatwork for whatever it is in this

(46:53):
case, reversing pre-diabetes,and then the role of strength
training and nutritionstrategies to optimize your
training, your metabolism,without having to give up entire
food groups like carbs.
So find that video on my YouTubechannel using the link in the
show notes.
You can search for my channel,wits and Weights, on YouTube,
but easiest thing is to tap thatlink in the show notes.
If you're not subscribed yet,please do so.

(47:15):
It's going to help us out.
It'll get you notifications ofmore of these short form visual
style videos that compliment thepodcast and, of course, help
others find the videos as well.
So use the link in the shownotes to go find that video and
stay tuned.
Follow the podcast to catchMonday's episode.
I'll talk to you then.

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