May 23, 2025 • 49 mins
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–
Do you feel like alcohol helps you relax? What if it’s quietly sabotaging your fitness, sleep, and focus?
I welcome James Swanwick, former ESPN anchor and founder of Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and we talk about why so many smart, health-focused people still drink, even when they know it’s holding them back. James breaks down the hidden impact alcohol has on your sleep, metabolism, hormones, and mindset, and why willpower alone isn’t the answer.
He also shares how to reframe your relationship with alcohol using science-backed tools from his book “Clear” and his 90-day program. If you’re serious about building a strong body and a clear mind, this might be the shift you didn’t know you needed.
Today, you’ll learn all about:
2:07 – How alcohol became culturally normal
5:07 – One drink a day still harms your brain
9:42 – The smiling assassins in our lives
13:14 – Alcohol vs food: the real cost
20:29 – The hormonal and metabolic toll
25:50 – Why “don’t drink” backfires
33:02 – Rewiring your environment and cues
38:19 – When to try non-alcoholic substitutes
42:34 – A glimpse into the alcohol-free life
47:32 – Outro
Episode resources:
- James Swanwick’s book: CLEAR
- Alcohol-Free Lifestyle podcast
- Instagram: @jamesswanwick
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👋 Ask a question or find Philip Pape on Instagram
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Philip Pape (00:01):
You want to cut back on alcohol.
You've even tried a few times,yet somehow Friday night rolls
around there you are, glass inhand, making the same old excuse
about just want to relax, or Ijust enjoy the beer or the wine.
What if I told you alcoholisn't actually helping you
unwind at all?
Today, my guest is a formerESPN anchor and the founder of
(00:22):
Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and he'srevealing the neuroscience
behind why smart, successfulpeople continue drinking,
despite often knowing better.
You'll discover why willpowerfails, how alcohol sabotages
your fitness goals, even alittle bit of drinking, and a
practical approach to breakingfree without depriving yourself.
If you want to stop lettingalcohol rob you of mental
(00:43):
clarity and physical results,this conversation is for you.
Welcome to Wits and Weights, theshow that helps you build a
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday we're discussing a topic
(01:03):
that affects nearly everyonepursuing better health and
fitness, and that is ourrelationship with alcohol, with
drinking.
We all know that alcohol isn'tgreat for our health goals, but
many of us, especially highachievers, continue drinking
regularly despite knowing better.
And why is that?
And can we approach this in away that doesn't feel like
deprivation?
To answer these questions.
(01:24):
I'm joined by James Swanick, aformer SportsCenter anchor on
ESPN, host of the Alcohol FreeLifestyle podcast and author of
a new book, clear, which givesyou a neuroscience-based method
to quit drinking, based on rootcauses and not on brute force or
willpower.
Today, you'll learn why smartpeople keep drinking even when
they want to stop, the falsebeliefs we construct around
(01:46):
alcohol, how drinking affectsyour fitness goals and, of
course, some tips to break freefrom alcohol without feeling
deprived.
James, thank you so much andwelcome to the show.
James Swanwick (01:54):
Thank you very much.
Great to be here, Philip.
Philip Pape (01:56):
So, rather than jump into the topic of why
people drink, I'm curious aboutwhen alcohol became so normal,
like, why and when did it becomeso normal in society?
James Swanwick (02:07):
It starts when we are little kids and our
parents say to us or the adultfigures in our life say to us oh
no, no, little Philip or James,you can't drink now.
You can drink when you're older.
And so our parents or the adultfigures in our life implant
this idea that drinking alcoholis something to aspire to, it's
a rite of passage, you get to doit, it's something to savor.
(02:29):
I would submit that is anonsense.
It's just attractively packagedpoison, but that's where it
starts.
Also, there's this conditioningthat in order to create romance
, in order to create camaraderie, in order to create celebration
, we must have attractivelypackaged poison present, which,
of course, is a ridiculousnotion.
However, that has been passedforward through generations
(02:53):
after generation, and now we'rein this.
What I submit is thisridiculous cultural society
where we have just normalizeddrinking, this poison which, as
you reference, can be sodamaging.
And I don't mean so damagingbecause you're waking up in a
ditch or you're drinkingexcessively.
(03:14):
I mean so damaging that youonly have one or two seemingly
innocent drinks per day.
That can still be damaging, andI call that death by a thousand
cuts.
It's not the waking up in aditch, getting arrested, doing
anything too crazy, but overmany years and decades it
catches up with you.
Philip Pape (03:33):
Attractively packaged poison.
I like it.
Okay, so we know where we'regoing with this show.
You know I want to pull on athread there.
When you talk aboutconditioning from a young age, I
definitely see that my daddrank beer pretty much regularly
, like all his friends and allhis peers, and I drank quite a
bit most of my adult life.
What about cultures where it isnot as aspirational and I don't
(03:56):
know if those exist, likepeople think of France, kids
start drinking from a young age,or whatever age, and it's not
as taboo.
Are there any differences therethat we see, or is it pretty
much the same thing, just atdifferent ages?
James Swanwick (04:07):
I would submit it's the same thing.
Different ages.
I mean, there are some culturaldifferences where, like you
referenced, in France, peoplekind of build this idea of
connection and family we mustdrink this poison.
But I'm saying you can buildconnection and family without
drinking the poison.
And you know, the French mayfeel like, oh, this is a great
(04:27):
way to create family ties, etcetera, but at what cost?
And that's what I really try todo in my book, clear, and what
I try to do with my work, whichis we're so focused on
normalizing this alcohol and wejustify it.
Oh yeah, it's fine to give kids15, 14, 15, 16 alcohol in
France.
You know, as long as they'renot getting drunk, it's just a
(04:47):
little thing, it's fine.
But what we're doing is we'resetting them up for a lifetime
of drinking habits.
And again in 2022, there was astudy out of the UK of 35,000
middle-aged adults which showedthat even one seemingly innocent
drink per night was enough tocause some level of gray and
white matter destruction in thebrain, in other words, some
level of brain degeneration.
And yet, culturally, we hang onto this idea that drinking is
(05:10):
fine.
It's fine, it's fine, it's nobig deal.
I'm not an alcoholic.
I'm not getting arrested, it'sfine.
It's not fine and all of thenew studies are showing that
like the, the strain it puts onour heart, on our our liver, on
our sleep, on our gains that wewant in the gym, the additional
(05:30):
calories we're consuming that weordinarily would not if we
weren't drinking, which can leadto a loss of confidence, which
can lead to craving more sugaryfoods, which can lead to
overeating, which can lead toobesity, which can lead to
irritation and stress andfrustration.
I'm trying to really articulateto people that the death by a
(05:52):
thousand cuts are often silentcuts, invisible.
You don't see them.
But if we trace it all back, wecan trace it back to starting
drinking at age 14 or 15.
Philip Pape (06:05):
Yeah, and I would love the listener to come out of
this episode even if they'reskeptical or objective in terms
of the cost benefit.
A lot of people do the costbenefit trade-offs of any of
this stuff.
I mean, obviously nobody sayshere's a little Oxy, it's okay,
here's a little heroin, it'sokay.
And there's a culturaldifference in how we treat
alcohol as a premise.
Right, that we have to breakthrough.
(06:26):
But then if we could get to thepoint where someone says, look,
even one drink a month is aproblem and or here's the
trade-off I'm making, that wouldbe helpful.
You mentioned gains.
That's like the key word, man,for everybody listening.
They're like, okay, you got myattention.
Now, james, let's talk abouthow it hurts my gains.
But really I want to go back towhy people then defend it,
(06:46):
besides the generalities that wetalked about, why specific
people rationalize it even whenthey know that it's bad, and
we're going to get into why it'snot great and why it's death by
a thousand cuts.
But most people know let's behonest, right, and those in my
community who listen to thispodcast we definitely have
talked about the hormonalimpacts, the fat loss impacts,
excessive consumption, sleepimpacts, all of that.
(07:09):
We'll get into that, but why dopeople defend it in your
practice?
James Swanwick (07:14):
People have been using it to relieve themselves
of stress and anxiety, and theybecome addicted to that way of
relieving themselves of stressand anxiety.
They become addicted to thatway of relieving themselves of
stress and anxiety.
The irony is is that we'redrinking it to relieve ourselves
of the very stress and anxietythat drinking itself is creating
in the first place, and then weget stuck on this vicious
(07:35):
stop-start cycle.
This vicious cycle we're alsoin our reptilian brain, if we go
back hundreds of thousands ofyears and if you understand the
concept of Dunbar's tribe.
Dunbar suggested that we usedto be in tribes of about 160
people when we roamed.
The earth happened that meantalmost certain death, because a
(08:07):
rival tribe would kill you, orthe saber-toothed tiger would
chase you and eat you, or thebear would get you, or the wolf
would get you, or you'd die ofisolation somehow.
Now the reality is in themodern world, we're not going to
die from being kicked out of atribe, but nevertheless, that
reptilian fear that we havestill exists, and so that shows
up with oh, if I'm not drinking,my friends will kick me out of
(08:30):
the tribe, society will kick meout of the tribe.
It's this irrational fear inthe modern world, a rational
fear in the you know, years andyears and years and years ago,
centuries ago, but an irrationalfear in today's world.
So we keep justifying itbecause it makes us feel safe.
We keep justifying it becauseit temporarily numbs us from the
(08:53):
pain of being ourselves,because reaching for a drink is
really only reaching for thepursuit of feeling something
different in the moment.
In most cases, people with adrinking problem, let's say, are
drinking to relieve themselvesof an uncomfortable feeling.
And so if you then remove thisthing that they've been trained
(09:17):
to go to when they feeldiscomfort of any kind, well
what are they left with?
Discomfort, discomfort, andthat feels awful and unsettling,
which is why people defend itso much because it does give
them that temporarily, becauseit does numb themselves from the
pain, because it does allowthem to procrastinate on key
(09:39):
strategic decisions in theirlife.
And also, addition, there aresmiling assassins all over the
world, and a smiling assassin issomeone who's smiling as they
offer you a drink or as they'redrinking with you.
It's the waiter or the waitresswho says hello, mr Pape, can I
get you started with a glass of10 pounds of unwanted body
weight?
Hello, mr Swanwick, can I getyou started with a bad night's
(10:03):
sleep and some shame and regretin the morning.
That's essentially what they'resaying when they show up and
they're like oh, hello sir,hello ma'am, I'll be your waiter
tonight.
I'll be your server.
Can I get you started from thedrinks menu.
And then our friends aresmiling hey, phil, can I get you
a drink?
James, can I get you a?
Philip Pape (10:20):
drink.
James Swanwick (10:20):
And they try to be hospitable hosts.
That's very nice of themoffering me a drink, but they're
offering me attractivelypackaged poison, and so if
everyone, as they're consumingthis alcohol, is smiling and
portraying this image ofcamaraderie, then the idea that
you would stop drinking,unconsciously or consciously,
(10:48):
means you are now rejecting thecamaraderie, you're rejecting
the tribe, You're rejectingculture, yeah, fear of getting
kicked out of the tribe, hencecommercials that portray huge
parties and a grand old timewhen drinking.
Philip Pape (11:00):
It's interesting because, philosophically I don't
know if you found this to betrue in your life, not even with
alcohol, but with anything itseems like the thing everyone
doing, often not the, not thething we want to be doing.
Do you notice that?
Okay, so there's a little carveout in there.
I want to address, becausepeople are going to say well,
what if I'm the type of personwho I drink one beer every three
weeks and it's at home, bymyself or with my family because
(11:23):
I like the taste of beer, right, those kinds of?
I'm trying to dig into some ofthe rationales people have and
I'm curious about those.
James Swanwick (11:29):
If they're drinking one beer every three
weeks, you know, candidly, Idon't see there's any real issue
with that.
If you generally like the tasteand you're drinking a beer or
two every three weeks, that'snot going to cause too many
problems, from my research andfrom what I have read.
But then the question really isare you sure that it's only
three weeks?
Are you sure it's every threeweeks?
(11:51):
And most people, if they'rehonest when they dig into it,
maybe it's not, maybe I'mdrinking a little bit more
consistently than I would liketo admit.
In that scenario, philip,there's no real challenge, no
real problem.
Long-term health consequences?
Short-term, sure, because ifyou're drinking beer anywhere
close to bedtime, that's goingto compromise your sleep.
And when you have a compromisedsleep you wake up just a little
(12:13):
bit irritable, just a littlebit more fatigued, a little bit
more tired.
Your body stores a little bitmore fat.
You don't lift as heavy in thegym, you're not as motivated to
go to the gym in the first placeBecause you're tired.
You might then reach for asugary food to give you a little
bit of an energy boost.
So ordinarily you wouldn't eatthe chocolate bar or the muffin,
but now you reach for thechocolate bar and the muffin, or
the Gatorade instead of a sodawater, and now you're drinking
(12:35):
some more sugar and you knowwhat I mean Like.
So these kind of things canreally happen, and most people
are drinking close to bedtime.
That destroys your sleep.
What you're essentially doingwhen you drink close to bedtime
is clocking in for a night'swork at a time when you are
supposed to be clocking out fromthe day's work.
Your body wants to be resting,it doesn't want to be working.
(12:58):
So again, coming back to it,look, a drink on occasion here
and there, as long as you don'tfeel like it's compromising your
life, no problems.
But be aware even that is goingto compromise your sleep, which
is going to compromise thefollowing day.
Philip Pape (13:14):
Yeah, and I think people will compare.
Sometimes they'll comparealcohol to say poor food choices
.
And I'm all about flexibledieting, right, like if you're
eating 80%, 90% whole nutritiousfoods, then indulge in the rest
, you're probably in the top 95%as far as diets go.
But what are your thoughtsabout that when people compare
(13:36):
the allowances they givethemselves for that flexibility
on the food side versus thealcohol side?
Because I feel like there'szero benefit to alcohol, whereas
the food at least hascontextual benefit.
James Swanwick (13:48):
I mean, why are we negotiating with ourselves
over this?
Like, why are we stillclamoring on how can I have a
drink?
Can I have a drink?
I'll just drink on weekends.
I'll just drink on specialoccasions.
What is it about it that's sospecial?
It's piss in an attractivebottle, like.
I really challenged this.
The first time anyone had adrink probably you were 12, 13,
(14:11):
14, you had a sip or something.
Did it taste nice?
Nope, of course it didn't.
I remember my dad gave mebrandy and I spat it out.
I went ugh.
So it naturally doesn't tastegood.
We've acquired the taste aswe've gone along again.
Why are we just so in love withthis damn thing?
Do you remember the movieraiders of the lost ark with,
(14:33):
yeah, of course, indiana jones?
You know in that in the firstscene where he's got the idol
and he's running away from the,the, the boulder, and then he
kind of escapes the boulder butthen the nazi is there with the
tribes and then the tribesandmen are all got their bows
and arrows pointed at him and hehas to hand over, reluctantly,
the idol to the nazi sympathizerand the nazi sympathizer holds
(14:54):
up the idol and all thetribesmen quickly stop pointing
the bow and arrow at indianajones and start bowing down and
saluting this idol, this golden,golden idol, and that enables
Indiana Jones to make his escape.
That's what we're doing withalcohol.
We're bowing down andworshiping the idol of alcohol.
(15:15):
And I say why?
I say why are we worshipingthis false god?
Because it's like a toxicfriend.
It doesn't want you to leave it, it doesn't want you to break
up with it, it doesn't doanything good for you, it
doesn't serve you.
And yet you're staying in thistoxic relationship.
(15:35):
You're choosing to stay in thistoxic relationship while
simultaneously bowing down andsaluting it.
So we're frustrated by theconsequences of the relationship
, yet we're still, like in theraiders of the lost ark movie,
bowing down and worshiping it.
So just stop worshiping it,stop clinging to this idea like
(15:57):
oh, but I can just drink on aspecial occasion.
Why is drinking worthy of beingreferred to as a special
occasion?
The special occasion is health,joy, clarity, focus, a good
night's sleep, great connection,fun, laughter, movement,
connection, gratitude.
That is the special occasion.
And you can have a specialoccasion every damn day of your
(16:21):
life, living alcohol free.
Philip Pape (16:23):
Yeah, I love it and I think, at least in my
personal experience, therelationship with alcohol for me
and I've seen this for a lot ofpeople evolved as I embraced a
healthy lifestyle elsewhere.
Right, and I think that's atleast those listening to this
show.
I'm hoping that you know this,this episode I can share with
them to say, look, you care somuch about lifting, moving,
(16:44):
eating right, mental health,walking, sleeping.
Why is this special, is whatyou're saying, and so maybe we
hit on the top couple reasons,one you already mentioned, which
is that we think it relievesstress and we think it's going
to help us unwind, and it's evenworse when we do it at night.
But why isn't that the case?
Why does it not actuallyrelieve stress and what's
happening physiologically?
(17:04):
Yeah, well, it actually createsmore stress.
James Swanwick (17:06):
And what's happening physiologically?
Yeah well, it actually createsmore stress Temporarily.
When we drink it, it gives usthis temporary, illusionary
sense of relief Right, so itdoes provide this feeling of
relief for a little while 20minutes, 45 minutes an hour but
then the consequences of thatrelief then create more stress
(17:27):
and anxiety.
That leaves you craving,wanting to then create more
stress and anxiety.
That leaves you craving,wanting to relieve yourself of
stress and anxiety.
And it's this perpetual viciouscycle.
It's this merry-go-round thatyou just are unable to get off.
When we drink, the body straightaway recognizes it as a foreign
poison and the body then goesto work to try to rid itself of
(17:50):
the poison.
We're consuming toxins.
The body doesn't like thesetoxins.
The body's then saying how do Iget rid of these toxins?
So you're now putting unduestrain, unwanted, undesirable
strain on the body.
The liver goes to work, theheart rate increases.
That puts pressure on the heart.
The enzymes liver enzymes go up.
(18:10):
It also has us increasing ourappetite.
So we end up eating more foodthan we might ordinarily eat
just because we've drunk a glassof red wine or a beer or a
scotch or whatever.
All of a sudden, because it'sturning into sugar.
It leaves our body going ohokay, I want more of this.
(18:30):
Let me get more of this.
You know, you haven't eatencarbs for a while and then you
start eating carbs and then youjust really desire more carbs.
That's what happens.
Philip Pape (18:39):
Deprivation amplifies desire.
Yep.
James Swanwick (18:41):
Yeah, and think about it Like you go to a
restaurant and you sit down andyou're trying to do a cut and
you're trying to watch yourcalories, you're trying to lose
some weight, and you say I'm nothaving the dessert tonight, no
way.
And the smiling assassin comesover and says oh, can I get you
a glass of wine?
Oh, just have a glass ofRiesling or one glass of white
wine.
Okay, you're just drinking 300calories in that white wine,
(19:07):
same amount of calories as adonut or a packet of crisps, but
more than that, because thedrink now increases your
appetite.
Now, when the dessert menucomes over, the smiling assassin
goes oh, can I get you somedesserts, some cake?
Would you like the cookie?
And you're like all right, okay, who do you want to split it
with me?
All right, all right, okay,we'll have it after all.
And then you have that cakehalf a cake, a few bites, maybe
the whole damn thing.
And then you get that cake halfa cake, a few bites, maybe the
(19:28):
whole damn thing.
And then you get in the taxi orthe Uber and you go home and
you go to sleep.
And then you wake up in themorning and you go oh man, I
wish I didn't have that glass ofwine and that piece of
cheesecake last night, right,and now you've undone all the
good work that you had.
So, look, it causes the body togo to to work.
(19:49):
But you don't want the body togo to work, at least not in that
way.
You want the body to go to workwhen you're in the gym and
you're looking for gains.
You want to build some muscle,you're looking to burn so bad,
that's when you want the body towork.
But guess what a great night'ssleep is where the repair from
that work happens.
But when you are looking torest to grow the muscle, to get
(20:10):
the gains, you're now saying ohno, we're not going to rest, I'm
putting you to work again.
The body's unable to do whatyou want it to do from the
intention that you have fromgoing to the gym in the first
place so does it also impacthormones?
Philip Pape (20:29):
my understanding is that moderate, almost daily
drinking does have a reallyinsidious impact on hormones
lowers libido in men, raises therisk of breast cancer in women,
slows down the metabolism.
James Swanwick (20:48):
So if you're looking to burn unwanted body
weight, for example, it's notgoing to happen if you're
drinking, or it's not going tohappen as effectively if you are
drinking.
You're just literally pouringmore calories in and also
slowing down the process.
There's a couple of studies out.
I'll have to dig in a littlebit more into those studies but
they found that one or twodrinks the night before is
(21:08):
enough to slow down yourmetabolism to the point of a few
pounds a week.
I'd have to dig into that alittle bit more, but I know that
your listeners here areparticularly interested in
lifting weights and gains andlosing weight, muscle and things
like that.
So if, if you're if, let's justsay, fat loss is your goal,
that can slow down yourmetabolism enough to have you
(21:32):
leaving.
Have you feeling frustrated thatyou're not losing as much
weight?
I'm actually on a cut at themoment.
I'm tracking all of my foodwith MyFitnessPal and I'm
walking 16, 17,000 steps a dayat the moment and I'm trying to
do like under 1650 calories aday and I've been tracking it.
In the first seven days I losta lot of money, not a lot of
(21:56):
money, I'm sorry, a lot ofpounds.
Six pounds in in a week andthen it kind of stalled and I
got a bit frustrated.
What's going on?
And then when I kind of dug it,I realized I wasn't entering a
couple of drinks, not alcoholicdrinks, but I wasn't adding
electrolyte drinks and somecoffee into the app.
I was just putting the food,not the liquids.
(22:17):
And when I looked at like theelectrolytes how many calories
and stuff were in theelectrolytes, I was like, oh my
God, there's like 100 there.
And oh my God, the coffee there.
There's like a 50 or 100 there,depending if it's a latte or
not.
And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that's two, that's 200, maybe
300 calories a day over sevendays.
That's 2100 calories.
Like to have that?
Yeah, yeah, at least that'senough for you not to lose that
(22:38):
weight.
So the same thing with thealcohol, right, not only is it
additional calories, but it'sthe slowing down of the
metabolism, it's's thedisruption of the hormones your
melatonin release.
Melatonin is an importanthormone for sleep that doesn't
release in the way that natureintended it to release when you
drink destroys sleep.
So, yes, there's massivehormonal effects if you drink
(23:01):
even innocent amounts of drink,of alcohol.
Philip Pape (23:04):
Yeah, people need to understand this because
there's cascading effects.
There's the stoppage of fatoxidation because the toxins
have to be metabolized first.
There's all of that and thelast question I guess I have
before we get into theneuroscience and then how we
break this habit, becauseultimately people are like, okay
, now what do we do?
Is there anything else youwould put at the same level as
alcohol, assuming someone is notsmoking or taking drugs?
(23:28):
Is there anything else youwould put equivalent to alcohol
or near it, or is it in a classof its own?
James Swanwick (23:34):
That's a great question.
There's a couple of studiesthat have come out over the past
five or six years, so justbefore the pandemic hit.
There was a study that Ireferenced in my book, clear,
which showed the damage and harmto individuals and the damage
and harm to society and listedthe whole lot of drugs.
(23:54):
Would you be shocked to learnthat alcohol is actually more
damaging to society than cocaine?
Like that's extraordinary.
It's something like I have toreference the book a little bit
better here.
But there's like heroin, crack,crack, cocaine, meth, alcohol,
(24:14):
and then there's like cocaineand things and it goes down from
there Right and ketamine andthings like that society either
slightly above or slightly underconsequence significance than
meth and crack and heroin.
(24:34):
Like crazy in terms of thedamage to society.
The fact that alcohol wouldeven be close to heroin and the
impact on society is astounding.
And yet it's legal, it's onevery corner.
We smile when we consume it.
Philip Pape (24:53):
It's just because it's death by a thousand cuts
and we don't see it so obviouslyin front of our eyes until
years, decades have passed yeah,many people are opting into
this and, like you said, even asa society we've opted in and
I'm sure it's a function ofscale too right, just the fact
that that's the case, it meansit's just pervasive everywhere.
(25:15):
Okay.
So if someone says, all right,I get it.
It's not great, there's nobenefits, it's a poison death by
a thousand cuts.
What do I do about this?
I know you, you know in yourbook, which when we were, when
we scheduled this, I don't eventhink it was out yet, and it
came out pretty recently.
I believe.
James Swanwick (25:30):
Yeah, it did.
Yeah Came out in March of 2025.
Philip Pape (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Just a couple of months ago.
So you definitely talk aboutthe neuroscience there, dopamine
and the reward centers and allof that.
Where's the best place to startso that someone understands,
like, how they're altering theirbrain and how they can then use
that information to changetheir behavior?
James Swanwick (25:50):
Stop saying to yourself you need to stop, I
have to quit, don't drink.
Because the mind doesn'tunderstand the negative command.
It just hears the word alcohol.
So a lot of us are walkingaround saying, geez, I need to
quit, I hope I don't drink.
(26:13):
Don't drink tonight.
And there's a bundle of nervesin the brain called the RAS,
which stands for reticularactivating system, and those
bundle of nerves are like alaser seeking missile, which is
it will focus on whatever it isthat you are repeatedly thinking
about.
So if you are repeatedlythinking about alcohol, even if
you're saying don't drink, needto quit, you're thinking about
alcohol, alcohol, alcohol.
So it's a lot easier for you todrink alcohol.
It's harder for you to stopright.
On the flip side of that, ifyou say to yourself what you
(26:37):
will do, I'm easily going todrink soda water, ice and a
piece of lime tonight.
I'm easily going to walk up tothe barman and say you know what
?
Give me a soda water, ice and asplash of cranberry.
Now, that's very easy.
The mind and the reticularactivating system understands
that positive command.
We're telling ourselves what todo as opposed to telling
ourselves what not to do.
And when we tell ourselves whatto do.
(26:59):
It's a lot simpler and a loteasier for us to achieve and
accomplish that very thing.
Philip Pape (27:04):
You know, I was thinking about how we're titling
this episode and when I look atyour content and everything, I
think we start from the quit andthe stop and the have to not
drink alcohol, right, becausethat's how we reach someone
who's thinking that way.
I don't know if you agree withthat, but like you see it in the
marketing side, and then Iimagine you have to then do the
switch and say let's.
It's kind of like I talk topeople and they're like I've got
(27:25):
to lose weight and I say, well,really we're not trying to lose
weight, we're trying to buildmuscle and we're trying to add
in nutritious foods and we'retrying to add in protein and we
want to.
So I love, that it's directlytied to our brain in that way.
So what are your thoughts onthat then?
The language we use, themarketing, the whole kind of
journey that people go throughfrom the initial recognition to
(27:47):
the switch.
James Swanwick (27:48):
People are always saying sober, sobriety,
recovery, clean.
We don't use any of thatlanguage.
In our organization, atAlcohol-Free Lifestyle, we use
the phrase alcohol-free, we'rechoosing an alcohol-free
lifestyle.
The name of my coachingorganization is called
Alcohol-Free Lifestyle and thekey word there is lifestyle.
It's the style of life, life.
It's not needing to be soberand white, knuckling it and
(28:11):
trying to be like sober,sobriety, recovery, clean,
surrender to a higher power.
We dismiss all of that verbiage.
It's been used for 75, 80 yearsand that's why aa, who really
uses that language, has a sevenpercent success rate and a 93%
failure rate if you judgesuccess over long term.
(28:32):
So we instead say we get to bealcohol free, we choose to be
alcohol free as opposed to Ineed to be sober, I'm sobriety,
I'm three years sober, I'm likethree years sober means that
you've probably been whiteknuckling it for three years,
whereas we get to be alcoholfree, I get to choose this
lifestyle.
That's the kind of verbiagedifference and instead of using
(28:55):
phrases like I need to, I haveto, which feels very draining
and heavy and tough and impliesfriction, we say I choose to, I
get to, I want to, and it mightseem you know, minor, a minor
thing, but we arise in language,we are language, and so the
subtle changes there can haveprofound generational impact.
Philip Pape (29:18):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think there's parallels withpositive psychology.
Not sure how familiar you arewith that field, but it's only
about 20 years old, right, wheretraditional psychology focused
on the negative of the syndromes, of the disorders of our brain,
and then positive psychologycame along and said well,
positive isn't the opposite ofnegative, positive is its own,
(29:39):
it's its own thing, it'sindependent of negative.
The more positivity we add in,you know, to simplify it, it
crowds.
It can crowd out the negative,I guess, is one way to put it.
I see the same thing withnutrition or a fitness lifestyle
.
Right, we choose to train threedays a week because X?
Right, Because it supports ourgoals, and you then find out how
(30:03):
you're going to change yourschedule around that which then
ends up getting rid of yourNetflix binging here or your
unproductive activity over here,whatever.
So I think that is powerful,james, I'm glad you brought that
up because there's a lot to besaid for language.
So if someone's listening andsaying, okay, I'm a casual
drinker, right, I'm not speakingnecessarily to alcoholics here,
but I'm a casual drinker, Istill think I want to drink
(30:24):
because of the social experience.
But now I understand why that'sjust a false belief.
Let's say uh, I still love thetaste of beer, or I still love
the taste of wine or whatever.
Again, rationale.
What's the first step?
Is it what they tell themselves, or is it coming up with a
behavior that replaces it?
James Swanwick (30:42):
Well, first step is is identifying that you can
have a better and more fun and apreferable lifestyle being
alcohol-free and choosingalcohol-free.
Once you believe that, then itbecomes very easy to live an
alcohol-free lifestyle.
But while you are maintainingthis, what I would submit
mistaken belief that alcoholequals fun and not drinking
(31:04):
alcohol equals deprivation andpain it's going to be very, very
challenging, which is why these30-day challenges are mostly
ineffective over the long term,because people are going in
there trying to get to 30 days,white-knuckling it, depriving
themselves, and what do they doon day 30, philip?
They celebrate with the drinkand they return to the same
(31:25):
level of drinking that inspiredthem to want to stop in the
first place.
So the first thing is trying torewire the mindset, and this is
what we do in our 90-day stopdrinking process, which is
called Project 90, in which weoutline in the book Clear, which
is we try to rewire yourmindset, and that is taking it
from drinking equals fun andpleasure and connection and
romance, and not drinking equalspain and suffering and
(31:48):
deprivation, to drinking equalspain and suffering and not
drinking equals joy and ease andcalm and relationship and
romance and fun and celebration.
So that's the first step.
It's that mindset and that'swhy people come to us.
We try to help them rewiretheir mindset around that.
And the second thing is kind ofwhat james, who wrote the book
(32:09):
Atomic Habits, talks about,which is setting yourself up to
win with your environment.
So that is removing the cuesthat gets you to drink in the
first place in your home.
So, for example, a lot ofpeople have bottles of wine and
a liquor cabinet and wineglasses and corkscrews and
posters with beer things on itand all these kind of shrines to
alcohol.
(32:29):
My invitation is remove that,because all of those cues those
visible cues are making youthink about alcohol and so then
you're more likely to go anddrink alcohol.
In other words, just get it outof the home.
Now, this is not about tryingto remove yourself from all
circumstances in life wherealcohol is present, because
that's unrealistic.
Alcohol will always be there,it will always be flowing, it
(32:50):
will always be colleagues,always be friends, families,
parties, bars, restaurants.
But in your own home you canremove it right, get it out of
the home and then replace itwith visible cues of health and
vitality.
I suggest to our clients you buyyourself a bouquet of flowers,
whether you're a man or a woman,you put, you get glass mason
jars and you strategically leavethem around the house.
(33:11):
So when you see the glass masonjars, you think about drinking
water.
You go and you fill up waterwith some purified water.
You drink the water.
The flowers are a visiblerepresentation of health and
vitality and color and scent.
Think of those flowers as yourown body.
The flowers need sunlight.
The flowers need water, needswater replacing.
Look at those flowers each dayand go, oh, I need sunlight, I
(33:34):
need water replacing.
Let me go outside, let me gofor a walk.
The other thing is there's a lotof studies that suggest that
you can reduce cravings for anydrug, including alcohol, by just
having a daily gratitudepractice.
So a lot of the things that wedo with our clients in our
Project 90 Stop Drinking processis we have them for 90 straight
days, write down 20 things thatthey are grateful for.
(33:56):
We call it the Daily 20.
And just that exercise aloneliving a life of appreciation
instead of expectation, isenough to reduce cravings by an
incredible 30% plus.
In addition to that, the way inwhich you share with friends
and family and colleagues thatyou're not drinking is more
important than what you actuallysay.
(34:17):
A lot of people mistakenly thinkthey've got to come up with
some logical reason as to whythey're not drinking.
But there's a lot of studies ofhuman behavior and psychology
and influence that shows that toinfluence anyone, it's only 7%
what you say and 93% how you sayit.
And how you say it is bodylanguage, tonality, pacing,
facial gestures.
(34:38):
So instead of going into asituation where someone's going
why aren't you drinking?
Instead of oh, I wish I could.
No, I'm doing this 30-daychallenge, I'm sober and you're
implying that not drinking isboring and dull, instead you go
oh no, I'm alcohol-free at themoment.
I'm like 90 days.
I've been six months.
I'm feeling pretty good.
I lost a bit of weight, I'msleeping better, I'm owning it
(35:09):
and we can just relax and have agood time.
You drink your drinks.
I'll drink my alcohol-freedrinks.
Now, everyone can have a goodtime.
So they would be some of thethings that I would get people
started with.
And most importantly, I think,is just own the fact that you
love being alcohol-free.
Love it, feel good about it andpeople will relax and they
won't judge you.
Philip Pape (35:29):
This is so good, this is gold.
It's funny you were saying thatbecause it works with other
things.
We homeschool our kids andsometimes you'll get a lot of
cynicism from people like, oh,what are you going to do about
high school?
Oh, how are they going to getthis and that?
And some people try to defendthemselves and we're like yeah,
thanks for asking, like we loveit because of this.
So almost like toxicallypositive, but not really.
(35:51):
I mean people will say I'm apositivity bully.
I'm a big fan of reframing,like you just suggested.
You also mentioned the cues,which works well for food as
well.
We talked about your foodenvironment.
We just went to Disney Worldand there's a lot of
opportunities to see alcohol atdifferent bars and restaurants
and one of my kids said well,isn't that pretty?
And I said what are you talkingabout?
She said all the bottles upbehind the bar.
(36:18):
I'm like we do glamorize thebeauty of it through the
packaging, through the liquorbottles, the vodka right, you
know what I'm saying when evenmy little 11-year-old thinks
it's pretty.
Jerry (36:25):
I just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.
I personally worked with Philipfor about eight months and I
lost a total of 33 pounds ofscale weight and about five
inches off my waist.
Two things I really enjoy aboutworking with Philip is number
one he's really taking the timeto develop a deep expertise in
nutrition and also resistancetraining, so he has that depth.
(36:47):
If you want to go deep on thelies with Philip, but if also if
you want to just kind of getsome instruction and more
practical advice and a plan onwhat you need to do, you can
pull back and communicate atthat level.
Also, he is a lifter himself,so he's very familiar with the
performance and body compositiongoals that most lifters have.
(37:07):
And also Philip is trained inengineering, so he has some very
efficient systems set up tomake the coaching experience
very easy and very efficient andyou can really track your
results and you will have realdata when you're done working
with Philip and also have accessto some tools likely that you
can continue to use.
If all that sounds interestingto you.
(37:29):
Philip, like all good coaches,has a ton of free information
out there and really encourageyou to see if he may be able to
help you out.
So thanks again, Philip.
Philip Pape (37:38):
All of this is great.
So, anyway, I'm just sharingsome personal anecdotes Just to
recap for the listener.
The first thing you said wasembracing this as a lifestyle,
as a positive.
Being proud, being positive,saying like being alcohol-free,
is the thing I want to be.
It's aligned with my goals.
Of course I'm not ashamed of it.
Of course I'm going after it.
The second thing you mentionedwas removing the cues.
(37:59):
We just touched on that alittle bit.
And then the third thing beingthe gratitude Does that work for
emotional eating as well?
And the third thing being thegratitude, does that work for
emotional eating as well?
Because you said it in a studyit reduced cravings.
James Swanwick (38:10):
So yeah, I would think.
So yeah, cravings.
Yeah, for any vice, but I mean,I'm specifically talking about
drugs, including alcohol, but itcan be for any vice, yeah.
Philip Pape (38:17):
What are your thoughts on non-alcoholic
options?
Because part of my brain sayswell, they're mimicking
alcoholic beverages, with allthe packaging and marketing to
go with it, but they don't havealcohol.
So what are your thoughts onthose?
James Swanwick (38:29):
I think when someone's trying to rewire their
mindset, initially in the first90 days, three months, and
trying to create a long-termmind rewiring, I would invite
people to refrain from evendrinking alcohol-free
alternatives.
But once you've got to at least90 consecutive days
alcohol-free and you'vesuccessfully rewired your
mindset and now you get to havepower over alcohol alcohol no
(38:51):
longer has power over you thatwould be the stage where you
could start introducing somealcohol-free alternatives.
The challenge with drinkingalcohol-free alternatives as a
direct and immediate substitutefor alcohol is that the
correlation is still there.
And so you know.
You go there, say hey, can Iget a heineken zero?
Oh, I'm sorry, we don't haveany.
Any heineken zero?
(39:12):
Oh, okay, let me have aheineken.
And so that association and thatcorrelation is still there
again after 90 days, assumingthat you have gone through our
process, you've rewired yourmindset, you now realize that
you get to be alcohol-free andthat a special occasion is every
day that you're alcohol-free.
Then you can.
I'm okay with that, I'mcomfortable with that.
(39:33):
But again, I know I'm repeatingmyself.
People can convince themselvesoh yeah, I'm just going to drink
0% beers.
Well, what happens if there'sno 0% beers?
What are you going to do.
Philip Pape (39:44):
Chances are you're probably going to order a beer
and then the slippery slope isvery slippery I understand yep,
because you're still seeking outsomething about that experience
or taste or flavor that wasassociated with the alcoholic
version of it?
yeah, that makes sense, I guesswhat you know.
You work with a lot of people,so what would you say is the
biggest in that first phase,that 90-day phase, the biggest
thing that people do stillstruggle with?
(40:05):
Maybe it's with the peoplearound them.
That's.
One thing that comes to mind isjust how you deal with your
friends and your family, butwhat do you see?
James Swanwick (40:14):
What is the biggest struggle that people
have when they're trying to quit?
Yes, yeah, it's culturalconditioning.
It's not a physical withdrawal.
I mean, I know that that's areal thing for a small
percentage of the population,like a chemical dependency, but
for most people, who mightconsider themselves a gray area
drinker, where they're notdeemed bad enough to be an
(40:36):
alcoholic uh, but it's badenough that it's causing
consequences, there's no realphysical withdrawal.
I mean, look again, I'm I'm nota doctor, but it's very much a
psychological and habitualchallenge that someone has.
It's just they're so used todrinking this poison for years
and decades and because they'reunaware or uneducated or haven't
(40:57):
tried an alternative lifestyle,it just seems so challenging
and so tough.
And again, smiling assassins areeverywhere friends, colleagues,
staff, everyone.
They're all smiling're allsmiling.
Hey, have a drink.
That's never going to stop.
It's going to continue foryears and decades and even
though there is a culturalchange happening right now and
people are increasingly turningtheir back on alcohol, it's not
(41:17):
going to stop.
People still smoke cigarettestoday, even though we've known
for three decades.
That is not good for us, soit's never going to change.
So you know, you, we really gotto get comfortable being alcohol
free not comfortable, but likeeuphoric, that we're alcohol
free and once we are, otherpeople see that and more people
get on board.
Then our social circle becomessmiling not assassins, but like
(41:41):
smiling givers, like that.
They're giving joy, they'regiving pleasure, they're giving
experiences.
And we're seeing that so muchnow, like there's a tidal wave
of change happening across theworld.
Alcohol-free drinks haveexploded.
In australia, my native country, they have these like sunrise
raves now, where there's noalcohol present.
(42:02):
People show up an hour beforethe sun gets up and they have a
dj and they start dancing, goingcrazy, and then they celebrate
the sun rising or drug andalcohol free, and then they're
going for a swim and a run andthey're healthy and they're
connecting on a health level anda human level, not on a
drug-fueled level.
So you know, once people canget over that kind of social
(42:26):
kind of obstacle that they'refearing and break through that,
wow, then life gets to be justglorious.
Philip Pape (42:33):
Do you find that people who then go through that?
Is there a correlation withthat and a health and fitness
lifestyle, or a cause and effect, even?
James Swanwick (42:42):
Yeah, I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010 and I
spend time with a lot of veryhealthy people and most of them
either don't drink at all ordrink sparingly.
And, most importantly, alcoholisn't a necessity for social
lubricant, you know, or forconnection or fun.
(43:04):
For example, a staff member ofmine who works with me at
Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, it's his41st birthday on Monday and
we're going out to a Japaneserestaurant on Saturday night.
I asked him who's coming.
He told me and I thought aboutit.
I went okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think there's maybe two out of12 people who I know will drink
and when they drink they won'tbe drinking excessively.
(43:24):
They'll have like a drink ortwo.
But the other 10, 10 out of 12people don't drink alcohol-free.
And I look at them and I go.
They're measured, they've gotgood conscious communication at
least they appear to.
I mean, who knows what goes onbehind closed doors, but they
seem like good people.
They're good morals, they're notprone to irritability, they're
not prone to reacting.
They respond versus react.
(43:48):
They look good, they're in thegym.
I see them working out, they gofor walks, they get sunlight.
The conversations that I havewith them is about nutrition and
weight loss and weights andmindset and conscious
communication and trying to bethe best father or mother and
trying to be the best leader andtrying to be a great colleague,
like that's the kind ofconversations that you have, and
(44:08):
I always, you know, I often saythat how you look on the
outside is often a reflection ofhow you feel about yourself on
the inside.
And so just a warning you doget better looking when you stop
drinking alcohol.
Philip Pape (44:23):
That's the selling point, man.
That's so good.
I mean.
This is why I love talking toyou guys on, you guys like you
on the show, because it isinfectious to be around folks
like that who share those goals.
It made me think, though,because you mentioned you
mentioned cigarettes and I I wasthinking about, like, the deal
makers and people in sales and alot of the high achievers you
probably deal with, who dodinners, lots of dinners, or
(44:43):
they go on the golf course orwhatever.
Is that culture any morechallenging, because of just how
competitive it is and the dealmaking and kind of all of that,
or is this just a madman fantasythat I have?
James Swanwick (44:56):
I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010.
I would consider myself apretty successful businessman.
I've done deals, hired people,done joint venture deals,
generated millions of dollars insales across two different
businesses.
I guess society might say, ohgeez, that would be tough for
(45:17):
you to do business because youcan't entertain clients or you
can't do deals, you can't softenpeople up with a few drinks.
I've been doing it 15 years.
Things have worked out okay forme.
And then this whole idea aboutthe golf buddies and stuff and
going to the clubhouse of the19th hole I get it Like the
culture's drinking.
Let's go back to the clubhouse,have a couple of beers.
(45:37):
Ho, ho, ho, how about that?
Like eagle, you shot.
Oh geez, that double bogey wasa nasty one.
Great, have one.
Great, have all that friendlybanter, but do it while drinking
a soda water, ice and a pieceof lime doesn't make you any
less manly.
In fact, it makes you moremanly.
Because, I'll tell you,drinking alcohol destroys your
testosterone levels, especiallybeer.
Beer's got so much estrogenproducing crap in it.
(45:59):
Men are like oh, beer, theirony, right?
The irony is that beer isassociated with masculinity and
testosterone and yet it's aproduct that destroys your
masculinity and testosterone.
Philip Pape (46:12):
And it gives you a big gut to boot over time it
gives you a big gut.
James Swanwick (46:16):
yeah, a lot of calories.
In fact, just on that, can youhave a guess on which two
alcoholic drinks generally havethe most toxins in it in them?
Drinks generally have the mosttoxins in it.
Philip Pape (46:28):
In them the most toxins, Mm-hmm, Is it?
It's not mixed, some sort ofmixed drink?
It's?
James Swanwick (46:33):
red wine and beer.
Philip Pape (46:34):
Okay.
James Swanwick (46:35):
Most toxins.
The least toxins is tequila.
Philip Pape (46:40):
It's also gluten-free.
That used to be its sellingpoint, yeah.
James Swanwick (46:45):
If you're going to drink tequila and if you're,
you know if you're gonna drinkthat crazy dealer.
And if you're, you know ifyou're gonna drink, drink
tequila, that's the least badfor you, right?
But worst in terms of toxins.
If you measure toxins, red wineand beer yeah, no, because you
mentioned the cigarettes.
Philip Pape (46:59):
And I know guys who everything they do is health
focused, except they'll pull outa cigar, you know, every now
and then to celebrate.
Right, it's just celebrate,it's just the thing.
It's just like with alcohol andthe culture, all right, well,
is there anything?
I know there's a lot we couldhave covered.
I wanted to touch on the mainpoints of why we do this.
You gave us a great frameworkfor that initial transformation
(47:19):
away, not away from alcohol, butembracing an alcohol-free
lifestyle, embracing what it isto be a healthy person.
Is there anything I didn't askthat you wish?
You want to get out there forthe listener.
James Swanwick (47:31):
No, I don't think so, other than just a call
to arms, so to speak, which is,you know, like culture is going
to want to keep you stuck inmediocrity.
And in my view and this is mylife's work the mediocrity is
created through the drift, andthe drift is created through
consistent, socially acceptabledrinking Socially acceptable
(47:54):
drinking, but drinkingnonetheless and I would just
invite you to re-explore yourrelationship with alcohol.
I write about this in my book,which is called Clear.
It's available online whereverany books are sold.
There's an audible version aswell, where you can put me on
two speed if you like and getthrough the book in four hours
instead of eight hours at normalspeed.
(48:15):
And, you know, start to embracethis new identity.
Look, I get that.
Not drinking is a threat toyour current reality and your
current identity, and the fearis that who will I be if I'm not
a drinker?
Who will I be?
I won't be the fun guy, I won'tbe the romantic guy or the girl
, I won't be the cool hostanymore.
This is such an identity threatand I get that.
(48:37):
But really, if you explore,what's it giving you, if it's
giving you mediocrity, andyou're stuck in the drift of
life and you're meandering andyou're floating and you don't
like it and you've got less timeon this planet than you've
already lived.
It's time for a change, andchange can feel scary I get that
.
So I really acknowledge thosewho take the leap and take the
(48:58):
plunge.
And if you'd like more details,you can go to
alcoholfreelifestylecom slashclear and that'll give you
details about the book.
Or just go toalcoholfreelifestylecom and
there's some details there aboutour 90 day and year long stop
drinking processes.
And I'm on Instagram at atJames Swanwick lots of free tips
and tricks.
And we've got a podcast as wellAlcohol-Free Lifestyle.
You can dig into that a lotdeeper as well.
Philip Pape (49:19):
All right, so I'm definitely going to include all
of those in.
By the way, if you're AmazonUnlimited which I am you can get
the book for free.
Um, hopefully you get a cut ofthat, even those.
I don't know how that works,but, uh, the the book clear your
Instagram and also the podcast.
We'll include all those in theshow notes.
And if you are looking to takethe leap and get out of the
mediocrity and the driftingthrough life, uh, this is the
(49:40):
way to do it.
Thank you so much, james, forcoming on the show.
James Swanwick (49:43):
Philip, thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
You want to cut back on alcohol.
You've even tried a few times,yet somehow Friday night rolls
around there you are, glass inhand, making the same old excuse
about just want to relax, or Ijust enjoy the beer or the wine.
What if I told you alcoholisn't actually helping you
unwind at all?
Today, my guest is a formerESPN anchor and the founder of
(00:22):
Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, and he'srevealing the neuroscience
behind why smart, successfulpeople continue drinking,
despite often knowing better.
You'll discover why willpowerfails, how alcohol sabotages
your fitness goals, even alittle bit of drinking, and a
practical approach to breakingfree without depriving yourself.
If you want to stop lettingalcohol rob you of mental
(00:43):
clarity and physical results,this conversation is for you.
Welcome to Wits and Weights, theshow that helps you build a
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday we're discussing a topic
(01:03):
that affects nearly everyonepursuing better health and
fitness, and that is ourrelationship with alcohol, with
drinking.
We all know that alcohol isn'tgreat for our health goals, but
many of us, especially highachievers, continue drinking
regularly despite knowing better.
And why is that?
And can we approach this in away that doesn't feel like
deprivation?
To answer these questions.
(01:24):
I'm joined by James Swanick, aformer SportsCenter anchor on
ESPN, host of the Alcohol FreeLifestyle podcast and author of
a new book, clear, which givesyou a neuroscience-based method
to quit drinking, based on rootcauses and not on brute force or
willpower.
Today, you'll learn why smartpeople keep drinking even when
they want to stop, the falsebeliefs we construct around
(01:46):
alcohol, how drinking affectsyour fitness goals and, of
course, some tips to break freefrom alcohol without feeling
deprived.
James, thank you so much andwelcome to the show.
James Swanwick (01:54):
Thank you very much.
Great to be here, Philip.
Philip Pape (01:56):
So, rather than jump into the topic of why
people drink, I'm curious aboutwhen alcohol became so normal,
like, why and when did it becomeso normal in society?
James Swanwick (02:07):
It starts when we are little kids and our
parents say to us or the adultfigures in our life say to us oh
no, no, little Philip or James,you can't drink now.
You can drink when you're older.
And so our parents or the adultfigures in our life implant
this idea that drinking alcoholis something to aspire to, it's
a rite of passage, you get to doit, it's something to savor.
(02:29):
I would submit that is anonsense.
It's just attractively packagedpoison, but that's where it
starts.
Also, there's this conditioningthat in order to create romance
, in order to create camaraderie, in order to create celebration
, we must have attractivelypackaged poison present, which,
of course, is a ridiculousnotion.
However, that has been passedforward through generations
(02:53):
after generation, and now we'rein this.
What I submit is thisridiculous cultural society
where we have just normalizeddrinking, this poison which, as
you reference, can be sodamaging.
And I don't mean so damagingbecause you're waking up in a
ditch or you're drinkingexcessively.
(03:14):
I mean so damaging that youonly have one or two seemingly
innocent drinks per day.
That can still be damaging, andI call that death by a thousand
cuts.
It's not the waking up in aditch, getting arrested, doing
anything too crazy, but overmany years and decades it
catches up with you.
Philip Pape (03:33):
Attractively packaged poison.
I like it.
Okay, so we know where we'regoing with this show.
You know I want to pull on athread there.
When you talk aboutconditioning from a young age, I
definitely see that my daddrank beer pretty much regularly
, like all his friends and allhis peers, and I drank quite a
bit most of my adult life.
What about cultures where it isnot as aspirational and I don't
(03:56):
know if those exist, likepeople think of France, kids
start drinking from a young age,or whatever age, and it's not
as taboo.
Are there any differences therethat we see, or is it pretty
much the same thing, just atdifferent ages?
James Swanwick (04:07):
I would submit it's the same thing.
Different ages.
I mean, there are some culturaldifferences where, like you
referenced, in France, peoplekind of build this idea of
connection and family we mustdrink this poison.
But I'm saying you can buildconnection and family without
drinking the poison.
And you know, the French mayfeel like, oh, this is a great
(04:27):
way to create family ties, etcetera, but at what cost?
And that's what I really try todo in my book, clear, and what
I try to do with my work, whichis we're so focused on
normalizing this alcohol and wejustify it.
Oh yeah, it's fine to give kids15, 14, 15, 16 alcohol in
France.
You know, as long as they'renot getting drunk, it's just a
(04:47):
little thing, it's fine.
But what we're doing is we'resetting them up for a lifetime
of drinking habits.
And again in 2022, there was astudy out of the UK of 35,000
middle-aged adults which showedthat even one seemingly innocent
drink per night was enough tocause some level of gray and
white matter destruction in thebrain, in other words, some
level of brain degeneration.
And yet, culturally, we hang onto this idea that drinking is
(05:10):
fine.
It's fine, it's fine, it's nobig deal.
I'm not an alcoholic.
I'm not getting arrested, it'sfine.
It's not fine and all of thenew studies are showing that
like the, the strain it puts onour heart, on our our liver, on
our sleep, on our gains that wewant in the gym, the additional
(05:30):
calories we're consuming that weordinarily would not if we
weren't drinking, which can leadto a loss of confidence, which
can lead to craving more sugaryfoods, which can lead to
overeating, which can lead toobesity, which can lead to
irritation and stress andfrustration.
I'm trying to really articulateto people that the death by a
(05:52):
thousand cuts are often silentcuts, invisible.
You don't see them.
But if we trace it all back, wecan trace it back to starting
drinking at age 14 or 15.
Philip Pape (06:05):
Yeah, and I would love the listener to come out of
this episode even if they'reskeptical or objective in terms
of the cost benefit.
A lot of people do the costbenefit trade-offs of any of
this stuff.
I mean, obviously nobody sayshere's a little Oxy, it's okay,
here's a little heroin, it'sokay.
And there's a culturaldifference in how we treat
alcohol as a premise.
Right, that we have to breakthrough.
(06:26):
But then if we could get to thepoint where someone says, look,
even one drink a month is aproblem and or here's the
trade-off I'm making, that wouldbe helpful.
You mentioned gains.
That's like the key word, man,for everybody listening.
They're like, okay, you got myattention.
Now, james, let's talk abouthow it hurts my gains.
But really I want to go back towhy people then defend it,
(06:46):
besides the generalities that wetalked about, why specific
people rationalize it even whenthey know that it's bad, and
we're going to get into why it'snot great and why it's death by
a thousand cuts.
But most people know let's behonest, right, and those in my
community who listen to thispodcast we definitely have
talked about the hormonalimpacts, the fat loss impacts,
excessive consumption, sleepimpacts, all of that.
(07:09):
We'll get into that, but why dopeople defend it in your
practice?
James Swanwick (07:14):
People have been using it to relieve themselves
of stress and anxiety, and theybecome addicted to that way of
relieving themselves of stressand anxiety.
They become addicted to thatway of relieving themselves of
stress and anxiety.
The irony is is that we'redrinking it to relieve ourselves
of the very stress and anxietythat drinking itself is creating
in the first place, and then weget stuck on this vicious
(07:35):
stop-start cycle.
This vicious cycle we're alsoin our reptilian brain, if we go
back hundreds of thousands ofyears and if you understand the
concept of Dunbar's tribe.
Dunbar suggested that we usedto be in tribes of about 160
people when we roamed.
The earth happened that meantalmost certain death, because a
(08:07):
rival tribe would kill you, orthe saber-toothed tiger would
chase you and eat you, or thebear would get you, or the wolf
would get you, or you'd die ofisolation somehow.
Now the reality is in themodern world, we're not going to
die from being kicked out of atribe, but nevertheless, that
reptilian fear that we havestill exists, and so that shows
up with oh, if I'm not drinking,my friends will kick me out of
(08:30):
the tribe, society will kick meout of the tribe.
It's this irrational fear inthe modern world, a rational
fear in the you know, years andyears and years and years ago,
centuries ago, but an irrationalfear in today's world.
So we keep justifying itbecause it makes us feel safe.
We keep justifying it becauseit temporarily numbs us from the
(08:53):
pain of being ourselves,because reaching for a drink is
really only reaching for thepursuit of feeling something
different in the moment.
In most cases, people with adrinking problem, let's say, are
drinking to relieve themselvesof an uncomfortable feeling.
And so if you then remove thisthing that they've been trained
(09:17):
to go to when they feeldiscomfort of any kind, well
what are they left with?
Discomfort, discomfort, andthat feels awful and unsettling,
which is why people defend itso much because it does give
them that temporarily, becauseit does numb themselves from the
pain, because it does allowthem to procrastinate on key
(09:39):
strategic decisions in theirlife.
And also, addition, there aresmiling assassins all over the
world, and a smiling assassin issomeone who's smiling as they
offer you a drink or as they'redrinking with you.
It's the waiter or the waitresswho says hello, mr Pape, can I
get you started with a glass of10 pounds of unwanted body
weight?
Hello, mr Swanwick, can I getyou started with a bad night's
(10:03):
sleep and some shame and regretin the morning.
That's essentially what they'resaying when they show up and
they're like oh, hello sir,hello ma'am, I'll be your waiter
tonight.
I'll be your server.
Can I get you started from thedrinks menu.
And then our friends aresmiling hey, phil, can I get you
a drink?
James, can I get you a?
Philip Pape (10:20):
drink.
James Swanwick (10:20):
And they try to be hospitable hosts.
That's very nice of themoffering me a drink, but they're
offering me attractivelypackaged poison, and so if
everyone, as they're consumingthis alcohol, is smiling and
portraying this image ofcamaraderie, then the idea that
you would stop drinking,unconsciously or consciously,
(10:48):
means you are now rejecting thecamaraderie, you're rejecting
the tribe, You're rejectingculture, yeah, fear of getting
kicked out of the tribe, hencecommercials that portray huge
parties and a grand old timewhen drinking.
Philip Pape (11:00):
It's interesting because, philosophically I don't
know if you found this to betrue in your life, not even with
alcohol, but with anything itseems like the thing everyone
doing, often not the, not thething we want to be doing.
Do you notice that?
Okay, so there's a little carveout in there.
I want to address, becausepeople are going to say well,
what if I'm the type of personwho I drink one beer every three
weeks and it's at home, bymyself or with my family because
(11:23):
I like the taste of beer, right, those kinds of?
I'm trying to dig into some ofthe rationales people have and
I'm curious about those.
James Swanwick (11:29):
If they're drinking one beer every three
weeks, you know, candidly, Idon't see there's any real issue
with that.
If you generally like the tasteand you're drinking a beer or
two every three weeks, that'snot going to cause too many
problems, from my research andfrom what I have read.
But then the question really isare you sure that it's only
three weeks?
Are you sure it's every threeweeks?
(11:51):
And most people, if they'rehonest when they dig into it,
maybe it's not, maybe I'mdrinking a little bit more
consistently than I would liketo admit.
In that scenario, philip,there's no real challenge, no
real problem.
Long-term health consequences?
Short-term, sure, because ifyou're drinking beer anywhere
close to bedtime, that's goingto compromise your sleep.
And when you have a compromisedsleep you wake up just a little
(12:13):
bit irritable, just a littlebit more fatigued, a little bit
more tired.
Your body stores a little bitmore fat.
You don't lift as heavy in thegym, you're not as motivated to
go to the gym in the first placeBecause you're tired.
You might then reach for asugary food to give you a little
bit of an energy boost.
So ordinarily you wouldn't eatthe chocolate bar or the muffin,
but now you reach for thechocolate bar and the muffin, or
the Gatorade instead of a sodawater, and now you're drinking
(12:35):
some more sugar and you knowwhat I mean Like.
So these kind of things canreally happen, and most people
are drinking close to bedtime.
That destroys your sleep.
What you're essentially doingwhen you drink close to bedtime
is clocking in for a night'swork at a time when you are
supposed to be clocking out fromthe day's work.
Your body wants to be resting,it doesn't want to be working.
(12:58):
So again, coming back to it,look, a drink on occasion here
and there, as long as you don'tfeel like it's compromising your
life, no problems.
But be aware even that is goingto compromise your sleep, which
is going to compromise thefollowing day.
Philip Pape (13:14):
Yeah, and I think people will compare.
Sometimes they'll comparealcohol to say poor food choices
.
And I'm all about flexibledieting, right, like if you're
eating 80%, 90% whole nutritiousfoods, then indulge in the rest
, you're probably in the top 95%as far as diets go.
But what are your thoughtsabout that when people compare
(13:36):
the allowances they givethemselves for that flexibility
on the food side versus thealcohol side?
Because I feel like there'szero benefit to alcohol, whereas
the food at least hascontextual benefit.
James Swanwick (13:48):
I mean, why are we negotiating with ourselves
over this?
Like, why are we stillclamoring on how can I have a
drink?
Can I have a drink?
I'll just drink on weekends.
I'll just drink on specialoccasions.
What is it about it that's sospecial?
It's piss in an attractivebottle, like.
I really challenged this.
The first time anyone had adrink probably you were 12, 13,
(14:11):
14, you had a sip or something.
Did it taste nice?
Nope, of course it didn't.
I remember my dad gave mebrandy and I spat it out.
I went ugh.
So it naturally doesn't tastegood.
We've acquired the taste aswe've gone along again.
Why are we just so in love withthis damn thing?
Do you remember the movieraiders of the lost ark with,
(14:33):
yeah, of course, indiana jones?
You know in that in the firstscene where he's got the idol
and he's running away from the,the, the boulder, and then he
kind of escapes the boulder butthen the nazi is there with the
tribes and then the tribesandmen are all got their bows
and arrows pointed at him and hehas to hand over, reluctantly,
the idol to the nazi sympathizerand the nazi sympathizer holds
(14:54):
up the idol and all thetribesmen quickly stop pointing
the bow and arrow at indianajones and start bowing down and
saluting this idol, this golden,golden idol, and that enables
Indiana Jones to make his escape.
That's what we're doing withalcohol.
We're bowing down andworshiping the idol of alcohol.
(15:15):
And I say why?
I say why are we worshipingthis false god?
Because it's like a toxicfriend.
It doesn't want you to leave it, it doesn't want you to break
up with it, it doesn't doanything good for you, it
doesn't serve you.
And yet you're staying in thistoxic relationship.
(15:35):
You're choosing to stay in thistoxic relationship while
simultaneously bowing down andsaluting it.
So we're frustrated by theconsequences of the relationship
, yet we're still, like in theraiders of the lost ark movie,
bowing down and worshiping it.
So just stop worshiping it,stop clinging to this idea like
(15:57):
oh, but I can just drink on aspecial occasion.
Why is drinking worthy of beingreferred to as a special
occasion?
The special occasion is health,joy, clarity, focus, a good
night's sleep, great connection,fun, laughter, movement,
connection, gratitude.
That is the special occasion.
And you can have a specialoccasion every damn day of your
(16:21):
life, living alcohol free.
Philip Pape (16:23):
Yeah, I love it and I think, at least in my
personal experience, therelationship with alcohol for me
and I've seen this for a lot ofpeople evolved as I embraced a
healthy lifestyle elsewhere.
Right, and I think that's atleast those listening to this
show.
I'm hoping that you know this,this episode I can share with
them to say, look, you care somuch about lifting, moving,
(16:44):
eating right, mental health,walking, sleeping.
Why is this special, is whatyou're saying, and so maybe we
hit on the top couple reasons,one you already mentioned, which
is that we think it relievesstress and we think it's going
to help us unwind, and it's evenworse when we do it at night.
But why isn't that the case?
Why does it not actuallyrelieve stress and what's
happening physiologically?
(17:04):
Yeah, well, it actually createsmore stress.
James Swanwick (17:06):
And what's happening physiologically?
Yeah well, it actually createsmore stress Temporarily.
When we drink it, it gives usthis temporary, illusionary
sense of relief Right, so itdoes provide this feeling of
relief for a little while 20minutes, 45 minutes an hour but
then the consequences of thatrelief then create more stress
(17:27):
and anxiety.
That leaves you craving,wanting to then create more
stress and anxiety.
That leaves you craving,wanting to relieve yourself of
stress and anxiety.
And it's this perpetual viciouscycle.
It's this merry-go-round thatyou just are unable to get off.
When we drink, the body straightaway recognizes it as a foreign
poison and the body then goesto work to try to rid itself of
(17:50):
the poison.
We're consuming toxins.
The body doesn't like thesetoxins.
The body's then saying how do Iget rid of these toxins?
So you're now putting unduestrain, unwanted, undesirable
strain on the body.
The liver goes to work, theheart rate increases.
That puts pressure on the heart.
The enzymes liver enzymes go up.
(18:10):
It also has us increasing ourappetite.
So we end up eating more foodthan we might ordinarily eat
just because we've drunk a glassof red wine or a beer or a
scotch or whatever.
All of a sudden, because it'sturning into sugar.
It leaves our body going ohokay, I want more of this.
(18:30):
Let me get more of this.
You know, you haven't eatencarbs for a while and then you
start eating carbs and then youjust really desire more carbs.
That's what happens.
Philip Pape (18:39):
Deprivation amplifies desire.
Yep.
James Swanwick (18:41):
Yeah, and think about it Like you go to a
restaurant and you sit down andyou're trying to do a cut and
you're trying to watch yourcalories, you're trying to lose
some weight, and you say I'm nothaving the dessert tonight, no
way.
And the smiling assassin comesover and says oh, can I get you
a glass of wine?
Oh, just have a glass ofRiesling or one glass of white
wine.
Okay, you're just drinking 300calories in that white wine,
(19:07):
same amount of calories as adonut or a packet of crisps, but
more than that, because thedrink now increases your
appetite.
Now, when the dessert menucomes over, the smiling assassin
goes oh, can I get you somedesserts, some cake?
Would you like the cookie?
And you're like all right, okay, who do you want to split it
with me?
All right, all right, okay,we'll have it after all.
And then you have that cakehalf a cake, a few bites, maybe
the whole damn thing.
And then you get that cake halfa cake, a few bites, maybe the
(19:28):
whole damn thing.
And then you get in the taxi orthe Uber and you go home and
you go to sleep.
And then you wake up in themorning and you go oh man, I
wish I didn't have that glass ofwine and that piece of
cheesecake last night, right,and now you've undone all the
good work that you had.
So, look, it causes the body togo to to work.
(19:49):
But you don't want the body togo to work, at least not in that
way.
You want the body to go to workwhen you're in the gym and
you're looking for gains.
You want to build some muscle,you're looking to burn so bad,
that's when you want the body towork.
But guess what a great night'ssleep is where the repair from
that work happens.
But when you are looking torest to grow the muscle, to get
(20:10):
the gains, you're now saying ohno, we're not going to rest, I'm
putting you to work again.
The body's unable to do whatyou want it to do from the
intention that you have fromgoing to the gym in the first
place so does it also impacthormones?
Philip Pape (20:29):
my understanding is that moderate, almost daily
drinking does have a reallyinsidious impact on hormones
lowers libido in men, raises therisk of breast cancer in women,
slows down the metabolism.
James Swanwick (20:48):
So if you're looking to burn unwanted body
weight, for example, it's notgoing to happen if you're
drinking, or it's not going tohappen as effectively if you are
drinking.
You're just literally pouringmore calories in and also
slowing down the process.
There's a couple of studies out.
I'll have to dig in a littlebit more into those studies but
they found that one or twodrinks the night before is
(21:08):
enough to slow down yourmetabolism to the point of a few
pounds a week.
I'd have to dig into that alittle bit more, but I know that
your listeners here areparticularly interested in
lifting weights and gains andlosing weight, muscle and things
like that.
So if, if you're if, let's justsay, fat loss is your goal,
that can slow down yourmetabolism enough to have you
(21:32):
leaving.
Have you feeling frustrated thatyou're not losing as much
weight?
I'm actually on a cut at themoment.
I'm tracking all of my foodwith MyFitnessPal and I'm
walking 16, 17,000 steps a dayat the moment and I'm trying to
do like under 1650 calories aday and I've been tracking it.
In the first seven days I losta lot of money, not a lot of
(21:56):
money, I'm sorry, a lot ofpounds.
Six pounds in in a week andthen it kind of stalled and I
got a bit frustrated.
What's going on?
And then when I kind of dug it,I realized I wasn't entering a
couple of drinks, not alcoholicdrinks, but I wasn't adding
electrolyte drinks and somecoffee into the app.
I was just putting the food,not the liquids.
(22:17):
And when I looked at like theelectrolytes how many calories
and stuff were in theelectrolytes, I was like, oh my
God, there's like 100 there.
And oh my God, the coffee there.
There's like a 50 or 100 there,depending if it's a latte or
not.
And all of a sudden I'm like, oh, that's two, that's 200, maybe
300 calories a day over sevendays.
That's 2100 calories.
Like to have that?
Yeah, yeah, at least that'senough for you not to lose that
(22:38):
weight.
So the same thing with thealcohol, right, not only is it
additional calories, but it'sthe slowing down of the
metabolism, it's's thedisruption of the hormones your
melatonin release.
Melatonin is an importanthormone for sleep that doesn't
release in the way that natureintended it to release when you
drink destroys sleep.
So, yes, there's massivehormonal effects if you drink
(23:01):
even innocent amounts of drink,of alcohol.
Philip Pape (23:04):
Yeah, people need to understand this because
there's cascading effects.
There's the stoppage of fatoxidation because the toxins
have to be metabolized first.
There's all of that and thelast question I guess I have
before we get into theneuroscience and then how we
break this habit, becauseultimately people are like, okay
, now what do we do?
Is there anything else youwould put at the same level as
alcohol, assuming someone is notsmoking or taking drugs?
(23:28):
Is there anything else youwould put equivalent to alcohol
or near it, or is it in a classof its own?
James Swanwick (23:34):
That's a great question.
There's a couple of studiesthat have come out over the past
five or six years, so justbefore the pandemic hit.
There was a study that Ireferenced in my book, clear,
which showed the damage and harmto individuals and the damage
and harm to society and listedthe whole lot of drugs.
(23:54):
Would you be shocked to learnthat alcohol is actually more
damaging to society than cocaine?
Like that's extraordinary.
It's something like I have toreference the book a little bit
better here.
But there's like heroin, crack,crack, cocaine, meth, alcohol,
(24:14):
and then there's like cocaineand things and it goes down from
there Right and ketamine andthings like that society either
slightly above or slightly underconsequence significance than
meth and crack and heroin.
(24:34):
Like crazy in terms of thedamage to society.
The fact that alcohol wouldeven be close to heroin and the
impact on society is astounding.
And yet it's legal, it's onevery corner.
We smile when we consume it.
Philip Pape (24:53):
It's just because it's death by a thousand cuts
and we don't see it so obviouslyin front of our eyes until
years, decades have passed yeah,many people are opting into
this and, like you said, even asa society we've opted in and
I'm sure it's a function ofscale too right, just the fact
that that's the case, it meansit's just pervasive everywhere.
(25:15):
Okay.
So if someone says, all right,I get it.
It's not great, there's nobenefits, it's a poison death by
a thousand cuts.
What do I do about this?
I know you, you know in yourbook, which when we were, when
we scheduled this, I don't eventhink it was out yet, and it
came out pretty recently.
I believe.
James Swanwick (25:30):
Yeah, it did.
Yeah Came out in March of 2025.
Philip Pape (25:33):
Yeah, yeah, exactly Just a couple of months ago.
So you definitely talk aboutthe neuroscience there, dopamine
and the reward centers and allof that.
Where's the best place to startso that someone understands,
like, how they're altering theirbrain and how they can then use
that information to changetheir behavior?
James Swanwick (25:50):
Stop saying to yourself you need to stop, I
have to quit, don't drink.
Because the mind doesn'tunderstand the negative command.
It just hears the word alcohol.
So a lot of us are walkingaround saying, geez, I need to
quit, I hope I don't drink.
(26:13):
Don't drink tonight.
And there's a bundle of nervesin the brain called the RAS,
which stands for reticularactivating system, and those
bundle of nerves are like alaser seeking missile, which is
it will focus on whatever it isthat you are repeatedly thinking
about.
So if you are repeatedlythinking about alcohol, even if
you're saying don't drink, needto quit, you're thinking about
alcohol, alcohol, alcohol.
So it's a lot easier for you todrink alcohol.
It's harder for you to stopright.
On the flip side of that, ifyou say to yourself what you
(26:37):
will do, I'm easily going todrink soda water, ice and a
piece of lime tonight.
I'm easily going to walk up tothe barman and say you know what
?
Give me a soda water, ice and asplash of cranberry.
Now, that's very easy.
The mind and the reticularactivating system understands
that positive command.
We're telling ourselves what todo as opposed to telling
ourselves what not to do.
And when we tell ourselves whatto do.
(26:59):
It's a lot simpler and a loteasier for us to achieve and
accomplish that very thing.
Philip Pape (27:04):
You know, I was thinking about how we're titling
this episode and when I look atyour content and everything, I
think we start from the quit andthe stop and the have to not
drink alcohol, right, becausethat's how we reach someone
who's thinking that way.
I don't know if you agree withthat, but like you see it in the
marketing side, and then Iimagine you have to then do the
switch and say let's.
It's kind of like I talk topeople and they're like I've got
(27:25):
to lose weight and I say, well,really we're not trying to lose
weight, we're trying to buildmuscle and we're trying to add
in nutritious foods and we'retrying to add in protein and we
want to.
So I love, that it's directlytied to our brain in that way.
So what are your thoughts onthat then?
The language we use, themarketing, the whole kind of
journey that people go throughfrom the initial recognition to
(27:47):
the switch.
James Swanwick (27:48):
People are always saying sober, sobriety,
recovery, clean.
We don't use any of thatlanguage.
In our organization, atAlcohol-Free Lifestyle, we use
the phrase alcohol-free, we'rechoosing an alcohol-free
lifestyle.
The name of my coachingorganization is called
Alcohol-Free Lifestyle and thekey word there is lifestyle.
It's the style of life, life.
It's not needing to be soberand white, knuckling it and
(28:11):
trying to be like sober,sobriety, recovery, clean,
surrender to a higher power.
We dismiss all of that verbiage.
It's been used for 75, 80 yearsand that's why aa, who really
uses that language, has a sevenpercent success rate and a 93%
failure rate if you judgesuccess over long term.
(28:32):
So we instead say we get to bealcohol free, we choose to be
alcohol free as opposed to Ineed to be sober, I'm sobriety,
I'm three years sober, I'm likethree years sober means that
you've probably been whiteknuckling it for three years,
whereas we get to be alcoholfree, I get to choose this
lifestyle.
That's the kind of verbiagedifference and instead of using
(28:55):
phrases like I need to, I haveto, which feels very draining
and heavy and tough and impliesfriction, we say I choose to, I
get to, I want to, and it mightseem you know, minor, a minor
thing, but we arise in language,we are language, and so the
subtle changes there can haveprofound generational impact.
Philip Pape (29:18):
Yeah, I totally agree.
I think there's parallels withpositive psychology.
Not sure how familiar you arewith that field, but it's only
about 20 years old, right, wheretraditional psychology focused
on the negative of the syndromes, of the disorders of our brain,
and then positive psychologycame along and said well,
positive isn't the opposite ofnegative, positive is its own,
(29:39):
it's its own thing, it'sindependent of negative.
The more positivity we add in,you know, to simplify it, it
crowds.
It can crowd out the negative,I guess, is one way to put it.
I see the same thing withnutrition or a fitness lifestyle
.
Right, we choose to train threedays a week because X?
Right, Because it supports ourgoals, and you then find out how
(30:03):
you're going to change yourschedule around that which then
ends up getting rid of yourNetflix binging here or your
unproductive activity over here,whatever.
So I think that is powerful,james, I'm glad you brought that
up because there's a lot to besaid for language.
So if someone's listening andsaying, okay, I'm a casual
drinker, right, I'm not speakingnecessarily to alcoholics here,
but I'm a casual drinker, Istill think I want to drink
(30:24):
because of the social experience.
But now I understand why that'sjust a false belief.
Let's say uh, I still love thetaste of beer, or I still love
the taste of wine or whatever.
Again, rationale.
What's the first step?
Is it what they tell themselves, or is it coming up with a
behavior that replaces it?
James Swanwick (30:42):
Well, first step is is identifying that you can
have a better and more fun and apreferable lifestyle being
alcohol-free and choosingalcohol-free.
Once you believe that, then itbecomes very easy to live an
alcohol-free lifestyle.
But while you are maintainingthis, what I would submit
mistaken belief that alcoholequals fun and not drinking
(31:04):
alcohol equals deprivation andpain it's going to be very, very
challenging, which is why these30-day challenges are mostly
ineffective over the long term,because people are going in
there trying to get to 30 days,white-knuckling it, depriving
themselves, and what do they doon day 30, philip?
They celebrate with the drinkand they return to the same
(31:25):
level of drinking that inspiredthem to want to stop in the
first place.
So the first thing is trying torewire the mindset, and this is
what we do in our 90-day stopdrinking process, which is
called Project 90, in which weoutline in the book Clear, which
is we try to rewire yourmindset, and that is taking it
from drinking equals fun andpleasure and connection and
romance, and not drinking equalspain and suffering and
(31:48):
deprivation, to drinking equalspain and suffering and not
drinking equals joy and ease andcalm and relationship and
romance and fun and celebration.
So that's the first step.
It's that mindset and that'swhy people come to us.
We try to help them rewiretheir mindset around that.
And the second thing is kind ofwhat james, who wrote the book
(32:09):
Atomic Habits, talks about,which is setting yourself up to
win with your environment.
So that is removing the cuesthat gets you to drink in the
first place in your home.
So, for example, a lot ofpeople have bottles of wine and
a liquor cabinet and wineglasses and corkscrews and
posters with beer things on itand all these kind of shrines to
alcohol.
(32:29):
My invitation is remove that,because all of those cues those
visible cues are making youthink about alcohol and so then
you're more likely to go anddrink alcohol.
In other words, just get it outof the home.
Now, this is not about tryingto remove yourself from all
circumstances in life wherealcohol is present, because
that's unrealistic.
Alcohol will always be there,it will always be flowing, it
(32:50):
will always be colleagues,always be friends, families,
parties, bars, restaurants.
But in your own home you canremove it right, get it out of
the home and then replace itwith visible cues of health and
vitality.
I suggest to our clients you buyyourself a bouquet of flowers,
whether you're a man or a woman,you put, you get glass mason
jars and you strategically leavethem around the house.
(33:11):
So when you see the glass masonjars, you think about drinking
water.
You go and you fill up waterwith some purified water.
You drink the water.
The flowers are a visiblerepresentation of health and
vitality and color and scent.
Think of those flowers as yourown body.
The flowers need sunlight.
The flowers need water, needswater replacing.
Look at those flowers each dayand go, oh, I need sunlight, I
(33:34):
need water replacing.
Let me go outside, let me gofor a walk.
The other thing is there's a lotof studies that suggest that
you can reduce cravings for anydrug, including alcohol, by just
having a daily gratitudepractice.
So a lot of the things that wedo with our clients in our
Project 90 Stop Drinking processis we have them for 90 straight
days, write down 20 things thatthey are grateful for.
(33:56):
We call it the Daily 20.
And just that exercise aloneliving a life of appreciation
instead of expectation, isenough to reduce cravings by an
incredible 30% plus.
In addition to that, the way inwhich you share with friends
and family and colleagues thatyou're not drinking is more
important than what you actuallysay.
(34:17):
A lot of people mistakenly thinkthey've got to come up with
some logical reason as to whythey're not drinking.
But there's a lot of studies ofhuman behavior and psychology
and influence that shows that toinfluence anyone, it's only 7%
what you say and 93% how you sayit.
And how you say it is bodylanguage, tonality, pacing,
facial gestures.
(34:38):
So instead of going into asituation where someone's going
why aren't you drinking?
Instead of oh, I wish I could.
No, I'm doing this 30-daychallenge, I'm sober and you're
implying that not drinking isboring and dull, instead you go
oh no, I'm alcohol-free at themoment.
I'm like 90 days.
I've been six months.
I'm feeling pretty good.
I lost a bit of weight, I'msleeping better, I'm owning it
(35:09):
and we can just relax and have agood time.
You drink your drinks.
I'll drink my alcohol-freedrinks.
Now, everyone can have a goodtime.
So they would be some of thethings that I would get people
started with.
And most importantly, I think,is just own the fact that you
love being alcohol-free.
Love it, feel good about it andpeople will relax and they
won't judge you.
Philip Pape (35:29):
This is so good, this is gold.
It's funny you were saying thatbecause it works with other
things.
We homeschool our kids andsometimes you'll get a lot of
cynicism from people like, oh,what are you going to do about
high school?
Oh, how are they going to getthis and that?
And some people try to defendthemselves and we're like yeah,
thanks for asking, like we loveit because of this.
So almost like toxicallypositive, but not really.
(35:51):
I mean people will say I'm apositivity bully.
I'm a big fan of reframing,like you just suggested.
You also mentioned the cues,which works well for food as
well.
We talked about your foodenvironment.
We just went to Disney Worldand there's a lot of
opportunities to see alcohol atdifferent bars and restaurants
and one of my kids said well,isn't that pretty?
And I said what are you talkingabout?
She said all the bottles upbehind the bar.
(36:18):
I'm like we do glamorize thebeauty of it through the
packaging, through the liquorbottles, the vodka right, you
know what I'm saying when evenmy little 11-year-old thinks
it's pretty.
Jerry (36:25):
I just wanted to give a shout out to Philip.
I personally worked with Philipfor about eight months and I
lost a total of 33 pounds ofscale weight and about five
inches off my waist.
Two things I really enjoy aboutworking with Philip is number
one he's really taking the timeto develop a deep expertise in
nutrition and also resistancetraining, so he has that depth.
(36:47):
If you want to go deep on thelies with Philip, but if also if
you want to just kind of getsome instruction and more
practical advice and a plan onwhat you need to do, you can
pull back and communicate atthat level.
Also, he is a lifter himself,so he's very familiar with the
performance and body compositiongoals that most lifters have.
(37:07):
And also Philip is trained inengineering, so he has some very
efficient systems set up tomake the coaching experience
very easy and very efficient andyou can really track your
results and you will have realdata when you're done working
with Philip and also have accessto some tools likely that you
can continue to use.
If all that sounds interestingto you.
(37:29):
Philip, like all good coaches,has a ton of free information
out there and really encourageyou to see if he may be able to
help you out.
So thanks again, Philip.
Philip Pape (37:38):
All of this is great.
So, anyway, I'm just sharingsome personal anecdotes Just to
recap for the listener.
The first thing you said wasembracing this as a lifestyle,
as a positive.
Being proud, being positive,saying like being alcohol-free,
is the thing I want to be.
It's aligned with my goals.
Of course I'm not ashamed of it.
Of course I'm going after it.
The second thing you mentionedwas removing the cues.
(37:59):
We just touched on that alittle bit.
And then the third thing beingthe gratitude Does that work for
emotional eating as well?
And the third thing being thegratitude, does that work for
emotional eating as well?
Because you said it in a studyit reduced cravings.
James Swanwick (38:10):
So yeah, I would think.
So yeah, cravings.
Yeah, for any vice, but I mean,I'm specifically talking about
drugs, including alcohol, but itcan be for any vice, yeah.
Philip Pape (38:17):
What are your thoughts on non-alcoholic
options?
Because part of my brain sayswell, they're mimicking
alcoholic beverages, with allthe packaging and marketing to
go with it, but they don't havealcohol.
So what are your thoughts onthose?
James Swanwick (38:29):
I think when someone's trying to rewire their
mindset, initially in the first90 days, three months, and
trying to create a long-termmind rewiring, I would invite
people to refrain from evendrinking alcohol-free
alternatives.
But once you've got to at least90 consecutive days
alcohol-free and you'vesuccessfully rewired your
mindset and now you get to havepower over alcohol alcohol no
(38:51):
longer has power over you thatwould be the stage where you
could start introducing somealcohol-free alternatives.
The challenge with drinkingalcohol-free alternatives as a
direct and immediate substitutefor alcohol is that the
correlation is still there.
And so you know.
You go there, say hey, can Iget a heineken zero?
Oh, I'm sorry, we don't haveany.
Any heineken zero?
(39:12):
Oh, okay, let me have aheineken.
And so that association and thatcorrelation is still there
again after 90 days, assumingthat you have gone through our
process, you've rewired yourmindset, you now realize that
you get to be alcohol-free andthat a special occasion is every
day that you're alcohol-free.
Then you can.
I'm okay with that, I'mcomfortable with that.
(39:33):
But again, I know I'm repeatingmyself.
People can convince themselvesoh yeah, I'm just going to drink
0% beers.
Well, what happens if there'sno 0% beers?
What are you going to do.
Philip Pape (39:44):
Chances are you're probably going to order a beer
and then the slippery slope isvery slippery I understand yep,
because you're still seeking outsomething about that experience
or taste or flavor that wasassociated with the alcoholic
version of it?
yeah, that makes sense, I guesswhat you know.
You work with a lot of people,so what would you say is the
biggest in that first phase,that 90-day phase, the biggest
thing that people do stillstruggle with?
(40:05):
Maybe it's with the peoplearound them.
That's.
One thing that comes to mind isjust how you deal with your
friends and your family, butwhat do you see?
James Swanwick (40:14):
What is the biggest struggle that people
have when they're trying to quit?
Yes, yeah, it's culturalconditioning.
It's not a physical withdrawal.
I mean, I know that that's areal thing for a small
percentage of the population,like a chemical dependency, but
for most people, who mightconsider themselves a gray area
drinker, where they're notdeemed bad enough to be an
(40:36):
alcoholic uh, but it's badenough that it's causing
consequences, there's no realphysical withdrawal.
I mean, look again, I'm I'm nota doctor, but it's very much a
psychological and habitualchallenge that someone has.
It's just they're so used todrinking this poison for years
and decades and because they'reunaware or uneducated or haven't
(40:57):
tried an alternative lifestyle,it just seems so challenging
and so tough.
And again, smiling assassins areeverywhere friends, colleagues,
staff, everyone.
They're all smiling're allsmiling.
Hey, have a drink.
That's never going to stop.
It's going to continue foryears and decades and even
though there is a culturalchange happening right now and
people are increasingly turningtheir back on alcohol, it's not
(41:17):
going to stop.
People still smoke cigarettestoday, even though we've known
for three decades.
That is not good for us, soit's never going to change.
So you know, you, we really gotto get comfortable being alcohol
free not comfortable, but likeeuphoric, that we're alcohol
free and once we are, otherpeople see that and more people
get on board.
Then our social circle becomessmiling not assassins, but like
(41:41):
smiling givers, like that.
They're giving joy, they'regiving pleasure, they're giving
experiences.
And we're seeing that so muchnow, like there's a tidal wave
of change happening across theworld.
Alcohol-free drinks haveexploded.
In australia, my native country, they have these like sunrise
raves now, where there's noalcohol present.
(42:02):
People show up an hour beforethe sun gets up and they have a
dj and they start dancing, goingcrazy, and then they celebrate
the sun rising or drug andalcohol free, and then they're
going for a swim and a run andthey're healthy and they're
connecting on a health level anda human level, not on a
drug-fueled level.
So you know, once people canget over that kind of social
(42:26):
kind of obstacle that they'refearing and break through that,
wow, then life gets to be justglorious.
Philip Pape (42:33):
Do you find that people who then go through that?
Is there a correlation withthat and a health and fitness
lifestyle, or a cause and effect, even?
James Swanwick (42:42):
Yeah, I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010 and I
spend time with a lot of veryhealthy people and most of them
either don't drink at all ordrink sparingly.
And, most importantly, alcoholisn't a necessity for social
lubricant, you know, or forconnection or fun.
(43:04):
For example, a staff member ofmine who works with me at
Alcohol-Free Lifestyle, it's his41st birthday on Monday and
we're going out to a Japaneserestaurant on Saturday night.
I asked him who's coming.
He told me and I thought aboutit.
I went okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think there's maybe two out of12 people who I know will drink
and when they drink they won'tbe drinking excessively.
(43:24):
They'll have like a drink ortwo.
But the other 10, 10 out of 12people don't drink alcohol-free.
And I look at them and I go.
They're measured, they've gotgood conscious communication at
least they appear to.
I mean, who knows what goes onbehind closed doors, but they
seem like good people.
They're good morals, they're notprone to irritability, they're
not prone to reacting.
They respond versus react.
(43:48):
They look good, they're in thegym.
I see them working out, they gofor walks, they get sunlight.
The conversations that I havewith them is about nutrition and
weight loss and weights andmindset and conscious
communication and trying to bethe best father or mother and
trying to be the best leader andtrying to be a great colleague,
like that's the kind ofconversations that you have, and
(44:08):
I always, you know, I often saythat how you look on the
outside is often a reflection ofhow you feel about yourself on
the inside.
And so just a warning you doget better looking when you stop
drinking alcohol.
Philip Pape (44:23):
That's the selling point, man.
That's so good.
I mean.
This is why I love talking toyou guys on, you guys like you
on the show, because it isinfectious to be around folks
like that who share those goals.
It made me think, though,because you mentioned you
mentioned cigarettes and I I wasthinking about, like, the deal
makers and people in sales and alot of the high achievers you
probably deal with, who dodinners, lots of dinners, or
(44:43):
they go on the golf course orwhatever.
Is that culture any morechallenging, because of just how
competitive it is and the dealmaking and kind of all of that,
or is this just a madman fantasythat I have?
James Swanwick (44:56):
I mean, I haven't drunk since 2010.
I would consider myself apretty successful businessman.
I've done deals, hired people,done joint venture deals,
generated millions of dollars insales across two different
businesses.
I guess society might say, ohgeez, that would be tough for
(45:17):
you to do business because youcan't entertain clients or you
can't do deals, you can't softenpeople up with a few drinks.
I've been doing it 15 years.
Things have worked out okay forme.
And then this whole idea aboutthe golf buddies and stuff and
going to the clubhouse of the19th hole I get it Like the
culture's drinking.
Let's go back to the clubhouse,have a couple of beers.
(45:37):
Ho, ho, ho, how about that?
Like eagle, you shot.
Oh geez, that double bogey wasa nasty one.
Great, have one.
Great, have all that friendlybanter, but do it while drinking
a soda water, ice and a pieceof lime doesn't make you any
less manly.
In fact, it makes you moremanly.
Because, I'll tell you,drinking alcohol destroys your
testosterone levels, especiallybeer.
Beer's got so much estrogenproducing crap in it.
(45:59):
Men are like oh, beer, theirony, right?
The irony is that beer isassociated with masculinity and
testosterone and yet it's aproduct that destroys your
masculinity and testosterone.
Philip Pape (46:12):
And it gives you a big gut to boot over time it
gives you a big gut.
James Swanwick (46:16):
yeah, a lot of calories.
In fact, just on that, can youhave a guess on which two
alcoholic drinks generally havethe most toxins in it in them?
Drinks generally have the mosttoxins in it.
Philip Pape (46:28):
In them the most toxins, Mm-hmm, Is it?
It's not mixed, some sort ofmixed drink?
It's?
James Swanwick (46:33):
red wine and beer.
Philip Pape (46:34):
Okay.
James Swanwick (46:35):
Most toxins.
The least toxins is tequila.
Philip Pape (46:40):
It's also gluten-free.
That used to be its sellingpoint, yeah.
James Swanwick (46:45):
If you're going to drink tequila and if you're,
you know if you're gonna drinkthat crazy dealer.
And if you're, you know ifyou're gonna drink, drink
tequila, that's the least badfor you, right?
But worst in terms of toxins.
If you measure toxins, red wineand beer yeah, no, because you
mentioned the cigarettes.
Philip Pape (46:59):
And I know guys who everything they do is health
focused, except they'll pull outa cigar, you know, every now
and then to celebrate.
Right, it's just celebrate,it's just the thing.
It's just like with alcohol andthe culture, all right, well,
is there anything?
I know there's a lot we couldhave covered.
I wanted to touch on the mainpoints of why we do this.
You gave us a great frameworkfor that initial transformation
(47:19):
away, not away from alcohol, butembracing an alcohol-free
lifestyle, embracing what it isto be a healthy person.
Is there anything I didn't askthat you wish?
You want to get out there forthe listener.
James Swanwick (47:31):
No, I don't think so, other than just a call
to arms, so to speak, which is,you know, like culture is going
to want to keep you stuck inmediocrity.
And in my view and this is mylife's work the mediocrity is
created through the drift, andthe drift is created through
consistent, socially acceptabledrinking Socially acceptable
(47:54):
drinking, but drinkingnonetheless and I would just
invite you to re-explore yourrelationship with alcohol.
I write about this in my book,which is called Clear.
It's available online whereverany books are sold.
There's an audible version aswell, where you can put me on
two speed if you like and getthrough the book in four hours
instead of eight hours at normalspeed.
(48:15):
And, you know, start to embracethis new identity.
Look, I get that.
Not drinking is a threat toyour current reality and your
current identity, and the fearis that who will I be if I'm not
a drinker?
Who will I be?
I won't be the fun guy, I won'tbe the romantic guy or the girl
, I won't be the cool hostanymore.
This is such an identity threatand I get that.
(48:37):
But really, if you explore,what's it giving you, if it's
giving you mediocrity, andyou're stuck in the drift of
life and you're meandering andyou're floating and you don't
like it and you've got less timeon this planet than you've
already lived.
It's time for a change, andchange can feel scary I get that
.
So I really acknowledge thosewho take the leap and take the
(48:58):
plunge.
And if you'd like more details,you can go to
alcoholfreelifestylecom slashclear and that'll give you
details about the book.
Or just go toalcoholfreelifestylecom and
there's some details there aboutour 90 day and year long stop
drinking processes.
And I'm on Instagram at atJames Swanwick lots of free tips
and tricks.
And we've got a podcast as wellAlcohol-Free Lifestyle.
You can dig into that a lotdeeper as well.
Philip Pape (49:19):
All right, so I'm definitely going to include all
of those in.
By the way, if you're AmazonUnlimited which I am you can get
the book for free.
Um, hopefully you get a cut ofthat, even those.
I don't know how that works,but, uh, the the book clear your
Instagram and also the podcast.
We'll include all those in theshow notes.
And if you are looking to takethe leap and get out of the
mediocrity and the driftingthrough life, uh, this is the
(49:40):
way to do it.
Thank you so much, james, forcoming on the show.
James Swanwick (49:43):
Philip, thank you so much for having me.
I appreciate it.
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