All Episodes

August 15, 2025 48 mins

Want to build muscle, lose fat, and train smarter? ⁠⁠⁠Join the new Physique University for just $27/month⁠⁠⁠ and get your custom nutrition plan FREE (limited time): bit.ly/wwpu-free-plan

Were women in the past weaker than men, or have we been sold a lie? What if prehistoric women could outlift most modern athletes? And how does understanding this history change the way you train today?

I’m joined by Anne Marie Chaker, author of Lift: How Women Can Reclaim Their Physical Power and Transform Their Lives. We break down archaeological evidence that shows ancient women had elite-level strength, explore how cultural narratives have stripped women of their physical identity, and reveal why midlife can be a prime time for building muscle. You’ll learn simple, sustainable ways to start lifting, structure your workouts, and rethink food as fuel, not the enemy.

Today, you’ll learn all about:

0:00 – Intro
2:24 – From journalist to competitive bodybuilder
4:30 – Archaeological proof of elite ancient women
7:07 – The Viking warrior who wasn’t a man
11:10 – The mixed messages of modern fitness culture
17:37 – How to fuel like an athlete
26:10 – Navigating perimenopause and training
30:05 – First steps for women new to lifting
36:10 – A brief history of strong women in sport
40:09 – How lifting shapes identity and mindset

Episode resources:


Support the show


🎓 Join Physique University for just $27/mo + get a FREE custom nutrition plan with this special link: bit.ly/wwpu-free-plan

👥 Join our Facebook community for Q&As & support

👋 Ask a question or find me on Instagram

📱 Try MacroFactor 2 weeks free with code WITSANDWEIGHTS (my favorite nutrition app)

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Philip Pape (00:01):
If you think women were historically weak and
passive, you're about todiscover how wrong that
assumption is.
Archaeological evidence revealsthat prehistoric women had bone
density and arm strengthcomparable to today's elite
female athletes.
Viking warrior graves onceassumed to be male have been
confirmed female, and thedelicate flower narrative you've
been told about womenthroughout history is a complete

(00:23):
fabrication.
Narrative you've been toldabout women throughout history
is a complete fabrication.
Today, my guest reveals thelost history of women's strength
and why reclaiming this powerisn't just about looking good.
It's about surviving andthriving in midlife and beyond.
You'll discover why your femaleancestors would outperform most
modern women in strength tests,how perimenopause actually
creates opportunities forbuilding muscle and specific

(00:46):
training approaches that workbest with female physiology.
Stop believing the lie thatwomen are naturally weak when
the evidence proves women arebuilt for physical power.
Welcome to Wits and Weights,the show that helps you build a
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and

(01:08):
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday I'm excited because we're
challenging what you think youknow about women and strength
throughout history and evenmodern times, because my guest
is Anne-Marie Chaker, a formerWall Street journalist who made
a quite dramatic career pivot tobecome a competitive
bodybuilder at 50.
She's the author of Lift howWomen Can Reclaim their Physical

(01:30):
Power and Transform their Lives.
We're definitely going to linkyou guys to that in that book
and we're going to play on thatin today's interview.
She combines evolutionarybiology, archaeological evidence
, sports science, culture toreveal how women have been I'll
say, systematically conditionedto believe they're naturally
weak, when the opposite is quitetrue.
And today you're going to learnwhy prehistoric women had

(01:51):
strength levels that wouldpotentially shame modern
athletes.
The cultural narratives thathave stripped women of their
physical identity and how thosehave evolved.
The specific ways that womenover 40 can reclaim their
evolutionary advantage throughintelligent training, which
we're all about here.
Whether you're a woman lookingto build strength or anyone
interested in nerding out on theintersection of history and
biology and performance, today'sepisode is going to change how

(02:14):
you view women's physicalcapability.
Anne-marie, hope I got all thatright.
I'm very excited to get intothis with you, and welcome to
the show.

Anne Marie Chaker (02:21):
That was beautiful, thank you.
Thank you for having me.

Philip Pape (02:24):
So I want to really start from the historical lens.
I don't know if we can makethis a chronological story, but
your book Lift challenges all ofthese assumptions about gender
and physical capability, thatwomen throughout history have
been weaker, or there arecertain views that we have on
them culturally based on recenthistory, especially like the
Victorian age and all of that,and that they're maybe less

(02:45):
involved physically than menthroughout history.
But your research, I think,suggests quite the opposite.
So when you look back at themajority of our history, first
of all, what was expected ofwomen?
What's the reality there?
What was expected of women interms of strength?

Anne Marie Chaker (02:59):
So this book was really born of my own
experience, philip, when I, youknow, was in my 40s and life had
hit kind of a tough patch.
You know, I, throughhappenstance, kind of entered
this weird wild world ofweightlifters and bodybuilders
and kind of weightlifting hadchanged my life Right.

(03:23):
So it was like the world wasblack and white and then it was
Technicolor Everything.
Once I started working withthis coach and lifting weight,
my body was transferring, but itwas also my mind started
transforming and so, like youknow, had more confidence.
I, you know, would come back tomy desk after a good lift and I
would, you know, I could hearit in my voice I was wearing

(03:46):
lipstick again, like everything,like I just felt like a new
person, and so the dripplist inme really wanted to understand
well, where has this been?
My whole life, like my entirelife, I was chasing skinny right
, always, this feeling like Ihad to lose weight.
If I did, it wasn't ever enough, and like I had to be thin.
And it's like the message thatis ingrained in our heads from

(04:07):
the moment we were born andsuddenly embracing kind of the
moreness of muscle and the ideaof building oneself, kind of
radically transformed my life inevery which way.
So the journalist in me reallywanted to understand why the
heck have we been, you know,chasing this thing when this
other thing is clearly theanswer?
And I became enamored of youknow.

(04:30):
I started, you know, kind ofresearching the history of the
thin ideal and where the heckthis came from.
And I kept coming back to thisstudy out of Cambridge.
This professor kind of realized.
Study out of Cambridge, thisprofessor kind of realized like
how come, you know, early bonesof women are always being

(04:52):
compared to men but we nevercompare them to how women,
modern women's bone structurelooks.
So what if we took Neolithicand Paleolithic women's bone
skeleton and compared them to asample of modern women?
So she looked at a sample ofdifferent modern students at
Cambridge University moresedentary students, athletes and

(05:13):
she found that the earlywomen's bones were about the
size of the elite rowers withtheir big, developed kind of
upper bodies.
So this blew her mind and blewmy mind too, because it said
these early women were buff,they were lifting heavy things,
they weren't sitting aroundwondering like how do I get

(05:35):
thinner.
They were, you know, anintegral part of agriculture.
It wasn't like, you know, thishunter gatherer myth where, like
, the men are doing all the workand they're hunting and they're
doing all the things and thewomen are picking berries in the
field.
No, the women were working hard.
So this, to me, said that thisis the OG body, this is the body

(05:56):
that women are intended to haveand that we perform best at.
And that was why, to me, as anathlete who was lifting heavy
things, of course, I was working, doing much better in every
which way.
So it kind of went from there.
If I was experiencing this, ifI was kind of coming home to

(06:18):
this body that I felt like I wasalways supposed to have, I
wanted other women to kind ofexperience this as well.

Philip Pape (06:24):
I was always supposed to have.
I wanted other women to kind ofexperience this as well.
You know the story aboutlooking into the why and history
.
Right, it reminds me of JenTodd, right, jen Todd, who is a
pioneer in powerlifting forwomen.
She kind of founded many of theacademic.
I think she even still edits ajournal and she I forget which
university she went to, butanyway it reminds me of that, of
looking back and saying youknow, we make all these

(06:45):
assumptions about how women wereacting in society.
You mentioned the gatheringversus the hunting.
Are there particular points inour culture's history?
Is it?
Do you have to go back toprehistory, or is there?
You know, duringpost-agriculture and civilized
time, I guess, where we see this?
You know, because I'm justreally curious what they were
doing to get those massive rowerdensity bodies.

Anne Marie Chaker (07:07):
It's interesting because we look at
things through this modern lensof.
You know how women are supposed, you know how men behave and
how women were.
You know we think we have somany cultural touch fairy tales,
and you know marketing messageon cracker boxes and you know
all kinds of things.
There was another thing that Ifound which blew my mind, which

(07:27):
was this Viking grave in Birka,sweden, that was discovered, and
in the grave was this greatwarrior, clearly a leader,
buried with the horse and chesspieces.
That showed that this was aleader who was thinking about
strategy, clearly the grave of agreat leader.

(07:48):
For eons it was assumed thatthis was.
I think the grave was found andI could be wrong here, but I
think it was like 1917.
And so for many, many years itwas assumed that this was a male
, and it wasn't until just a fewyears ago, that very recently,
that it was found that thiswarrior had two X chromosomes.
It was, it was a woman, and howinteresting is that?

(08:11):
I mean I, if I found the, Iwould have assumed it was a man
too, right, but it's like onlyin modern times.
Really, it's really the, theidea that men are the stronger.
Sex is really the product ofthe last 150 or so years.
Men are the stronger.
Sex is really the product ofthe last 150 or so years and I
would argue, you know it'ssomething that has benefited a

(08:35):
patriarchy run by men.
If we keep women in a morechildlike, controlled, weaker
state, that benefits a world runby men.
And we see this take place mostsharply in certain times where
women really gain more power andinfluence.
So, for instance, when women wonthe right to vote in the 1920s,
what did we have?
We suddenly had the flapper wasthe look where, you know,

(08:58):
suddenly thin was in in a big,big way.
This reared its head again.
For instance, you know, we sawit in the 80s when women
suddenly were infiltratingboardrooms and the corporate
world and we had the power suitwith the big shoulder pads.
You know, suddenly we had KateMoss, and you know.
So there are moments where, youknow, you see the skinny thing

(09:23):
rise most sharply when womenstart to show an inkling of more
power.
So I could go on and on aboutthis.
But it's not just one thingthat caused skinny to be.
There were many things, fromfood supply and demand.
We want to emulate wealth,right.
Well, when food became moreplentiful, more people had

(09:46):
access to the stuff.
So you know, the pendulumstarted to swing more towards
thinness and you know the dawnof the calorie and the obsession
of measuring it and all ofthese different things, kind of
fueling the flames.
But at its core, I think youknow really the skinny obsession
is really a product of controland keeping women in a weaker

(10:11):
state which has never benefitedus.

Philip Pape (10:14):
Yeah, I mean, I love strong women.
My wife lifts weights, we'retalking about that a lot, and,
of course, I suppose I'm thelast person who can talk about
patriarchy, being a man myself,so I'm not going to go there,
but I could see that in history.
I think it's important tounderstand history and why
certain moments and landmarkshad shifted the narrative right
Like the Victorian frailty.

(10:34):
You know where were ourancestors from 10,000 years ago
and how they lived versus athousand years ago in the Middle
Ages, and the Vikings versusthe Victorian age, and so I
suppose you tell me if this istrue or not.
Are we in a new renaissance now?
Because I think we're talkingmore about it.
I think there's more acceptancefor strong and being fueled,

(10:55):
but I also hear just as strongsome of the terrible messaging
that has hung on since the 80s,that gets amplified on social
media, especially to youngergirls, with how the algorithms
work and things like that.
So what are your thoughts Like?
What period are we in now interms of women's strength?

Anne Marie Chaker (11:10):
It's such a great question and I have so
many feelings and so manythoughts.
You know, as the mother of a 14year old girl who's just
recently discovered TikTok.
I was just sitting on a busnext to her and literally
watching her for hours scrollthrough my phone and look at
TikTok, and so it was reallykind of fascinating study on

(11:32):
what she's seeing and whatmessage.
And let me tell you, it's notpretty.
It's not pretty.
There's this whole skinnyobsession rearing its head again
and I mean, and on the otherhand, I go to a gym and I see, I
see we're starting to see manymore women and when I started my
journey, I started hitting thefitness, the weight room, and I

(11:54):
would say 2018, 2019, I wasreally one of the only women in
the weight room.
I was largely 18, 19, 20 yearold young men.
I was kind of the grandma.
Now I think you know theinfluencers gym influencers, as
they call them.
We're seeing a lot more womenin the weight room, which is
wonderful, and they know whatthey're doing.
It's impressive Like they goand they know what to do,

(12:17):
they've watched the video andthey go with friends and so
forth.
So, and of course, glp-1s nowagain.
So there's different thingsgoing on and I think it's all
kind of shaking out.
There was one, I don't know ifyou remember, in my book, a
study of Miss Americas from, youknow, 50 years ago to now, and

(12:40):
it was this researcher who kindof noted that you know, we're
starting to see more of a skinny, muscular ideal, which also
isn't good, you know, becausethat's not healthy either and
it's an ideal that's even moreimpossible to reach.
So I think there's a lot ofmixed, confusing messages going
on and I don't think the skinnything is going away anytime soon

(13:04):
, unfortunately.

Philip Pape (13:05):
Yeah, I think you talked about that on a recent
Substack article.
Yes, a little like that forfolks.
You've got a lot of really coolarticles there, some
cross-posted as well with otherfolks that you collaborate with,
but that skinny, muscular Ithink you were talking about an
actress in particular but itmakes me think of, from the male
perspective, how Fight Clubbecame like a landmark for the
new physique of super skinny,not even shredded and muscular,

(13:28):
just kind of gaunt and skinny,right Like with the six pack,
and why those things are sopowerful and why they take
control with these huge and so Ialways think I don't know what
you think is that if you'redifferent, if you're weird and
you're the minority, you'reprobably doing the right thing
in any given part of society.
So if we're to elevate this forfolks listening and, by the way,

(13:49):
a lot of our listeners, they'reinto lifting, they want to know
about this.
We're trying to get the messageout about.
You know, if you want to losefat, that's fine, but it's not
about weight, it's not aboutscale weight, it's not about
being skinny.
It's about fueling yourself andbeing healthy and performing
yourself and being healthy andperforming.
Who are your favorite athletestoday that would exemplify that
or to not put you on the spot,like you know what people should
look for when they're trying tofollow individuals on social

(14:12):
media or podcasts or whatnot toget the right messaging into
their feed.

Anne Marie Chaker (14:16):
Well, I don't know that this is revolutionary
or anything, but I've beenreally taken with Alana Marr.
I think you know her Instagramis just a masterclass.
I think she works with hersister on it.
I could be wrong.
It's just like she's funny andshe's brave and she talks about

(14:36):
her.
I mean, her body isunbelievable, she's big and
she's unabashedly strong and shetalks about how she feels and
she's honest, like sometimeslike she feels not so good and
like she worried, like it's justa very honest, funny and brave

(14:57):
social media account and itrepresents kind of the best of
what social media should be,which is just honest.
She's very body-powered, she'sstrong and she's proud of her
strong body and she eats likethere was one where she was
biting into a donut the otherday and she was just like I am
enjoying a jelly-filled donutand it was just like.

(15:18):
It was just so funny and youjust wanted to eat the donut
with her and and hash it out.
But you know, trying to thinkof other athletes, that none
come to mind.

Philip Pape (15:30):
No, that's okay, and that's a lot of Mar with an
eye right, a lot of Mar with aneye.
Yeah, yeah, the Mar, yeah,olympic medal is um, definitely
check her out.
I gave her a follow as well.
How about have you heard ofJessica Bittner?

Anne Marie Chaker (15:39):
That name rings a bell Canadian forklift.

Philip Pape (15:42):
She's a powerlifter in Canada, super, super strong.
So yeah, I was just curious,right, because I think you have
a 14-year-old daughter, I have a13-year-old and an 11-year-old,
right, and they actually don'thave cell phones yet.

Anne Marie Chaker (15:56):
No, neither do mine.

Philip Pape (15:57):
They play with.
And no judgment on anybody, I'mjust saying like that kind of
wholesale takes an element outof the equation.
But I am also, you know,concerned about that.
Like, how do you get educatedyourself when you're raising
your, your children, yourdaughters, to, when they see
that information, to have theright judgment on that and
critical thinking skills aroundthat?
Right, because we can't controleverything.

(16:18):
Once they grow up, they'regoing to be exposed to all that,
so what do they do?
So that's just kind of whereall this is coming from.

Anne Marie Chaker (16:24):
It's amazing what they absorb.
I haven't done much with TikTokbut I was like this is what you
guys are interested in andyou're seeing these little gym
video.
Let's do some together.
So we started just a couple ofweeks ago I started taking
little videos in the basementhere where I keep my weights and
stuff with mother-daughternonsense workouts and stuff.

(16:46):
And it's funny, my little onewho's 10, she said we were.
I was doing a bench press withher spotting behind me and we
had the cell phone camera on andshe goes all about the bulk and
and I was just like where doyou know this?
Like she's like like they pickup on stuff that they see on
tiktok.

Philip Pape (17:08):
so anyway, well, it's funny you mentioned bulk.
Right, because the language weuse is important too.
Right, because you hear stillfears about bulking and getting
big and being muscular and andor the other terms like being
tone and being lean and all that.
It, or the other terms likebeing tone and being lean and
all that.
It's like trying to define allthat or dispel what it all means
.
You're all about, from what Iunderstand, you know, fueling

(17:29):
yourself and performing, and sowhat I'm curious about being a
bodybuilder 50 awesome, this islike you're.
You're still you're preppingfor your first show, right?

Anne Marie Chaker (17:37):
No, no, I've done shows before.
This is.
I'm in prep for my first pro.

Philip Pape (17:42):
Pro show yeah, yeah , okay, awesome.
So what is that?
Obviously, bodybuilding itselfdoes come with certain extremes.
We've talked about that on theshow in terms of like, when you
have to lean out ready for theshow.
But in terms of the buildingand the improvement season, what
does that look like for you?
What does the everyday person,who doesn't even want to compete
, who's a woman?

(18:04):
What are the general principlesthey should be trying to
incorporate when they go downthis journey of strength and
health?

Anne Marie Chaker (18:07):
Yeah, I would say it really reframed my
feelings about food as somethingto like oh my God, avoid guilt
as like something to embrace andto really eat more quantities
of, like whole and plentifulfood.
And that doesn't mean it's agreat big free for all, and but

(18:31):
I would say that I prepare myown food ahead of time to ensure
that I'm eating really well.
And that sort of approach ofpreparing ahead of time and meal
prep which is like a term youhear a lot now with social media
, but prepping your food aheadof time has been the big game

(18:54):
changer for me In the past.
I would eat when I got hungry,you know, and I would eat when I
got hungry or I would come homefrom work and it was like, oh
shit, there's nothing in thefridge.
Take out menus.
There was a, you know, it wasalways like feeding myself was
like a last minute thing when Igot hungry.
And then, of course, you're notgoing to make great choices,

(19:15):
you're just kind of going to eatwhat's easy, quick or yummy.
Kind of going to eat what'seasy, quick or yummy.
So now I have a much more Imean bodybuilders think in terms
of macronutrients.
So that's how I categorize myfood.
I think the big three are carbs, proteins and fats and

(19:37):
basically I do like a big shopon Sunday.
I'm a big Aldi's shopper.
I love Aldi's.
It's cheap and it's quick andit's everything you need and
it's no frills.
I save so much money shoppingat Aldi's and, by the way, I'm
not like an Aldi, I don't getany money from Aldi's.

Philip Pape (19:54):
This episode is sponsored by Aldi.
This is not a sponsored by Aldi.
Maybe I should reach out tothem, I know.

Anne Marie Chaker (20:00):
But so anyway , sunday big shop at Aldi's.
Come home I always make aginormous big green salad and
that's like the thing I keep inthe fridge and I pull from that
all the time.
I make a pot of boiled potatoes, either sweet or white, it
doesn't matter and or white riceI love white rice.
So those things are always likethose are my ready to go carbs

(20:23):
and then proteins I eat thingsthat the rest of the crew will
like also, so I'm not cookingmeals forever.
You know different meals foreveryone.
So grilled chicken I buy thosechicken tenderloins, throw those
on the grill those last acouple of days, everybody eats
those.
I do something I always call atenderloins throw those on the
grill those last a couple ofdays, everybody eats those.
I do something I always call aturkey crumbles, which is a pack

(20:45):
of 93% and 99% turkey mixedtogether with a pack of taco
seasoning.
That's awesome.
I eat that on salad.
I eat that with potato, kidseat that with tacos.
That is gold.
And then liquid egg whites arelike the mother's milk of
bodybuilders that I consume thatin a smoothie.

(21:07):
That is like gold for mymid-afternoon smoothie.
I usually combine that withsome banana or berries, maybe a
spoonful of peanut butter.
If I need fats banana, butliquid egg whites is always.
And yeah, like I eat prettybasic but it's good food and
it's satiating and I like,really like protein.

(21:30):
I mean, I like meat.

Philip Pape (21:32):
Yeah, no, we're all about protein and carbs.
So I love, I would be hungry ifI didn't just have lunch, so it
sounds so good.
But I do want to give theaudience some takeaways.
Right, because we talk aboutmacros and tracking and all that
.
But there are some simplethings that you just mentioned
that are timeless.
They're principles, they'rethings that will make your
decision fatigue way lower whenyou get to, you know, prepping

(21:53):
your dinner for the kids andyour family.
And you get home and you don'thave much time, you don't go for
the Chinese takeout, and thatis, you know.
Two things you mentioned Onedoing things ahead of time,
prepping ahead of time, reducingdecision from the week.
And of course, that could beextrapolated to anything, to
preparing what you're going toeat, to the grocery shopping you
do on Sunday, to having a mealplan, whether it's a loose mix

(22:15):
and match or more, you know,firm, depending on what your
preference is Right.
And you mentioned very simplebut like great choices for foods
that are high in satiety, highin fiber.
Right, the potatoes, forexample, are underrated, source
of staying full.
People don't realize.
And then all the beautiful, theegg whites.
Actually, that's anotherunderrated thing because people

(22:36):
talk about whey protein and thatone is really good.

Anne Marie Chaker (22:39):
So underrated .
I mean you don't even need wheyprotein if you're using liquid
egg whites.
I think a lot of people getgrossed out by the idea of the
egg and, like you know, I alwaysget like don't you have to cook
them and you don't, they'repasteurized so you can consume
that, and like they're totallyflavorless.
So once you get past the mentalblock of them being eggs, it's

(23:02):
totally flavorless, it's fine.

Philip Pape (23:04):
Yeah, yeah, great, and you can mix it in with whole
eggs as well and increase theprotein density.
Yeah, and you said one otherthing about reframing around
food, about it not being a bigfree-for-all, and it reminded me
of I think I'm going to do apodcast about this Lyle McDonald
wrote an article years agocalled excluding the middle, and
it's basically the falsedichotomy where and this is big
on social media right when it'slike well, over here you've got

(23:27):
the all pop tart diet and thenover here you've got the all
clean and like super boringbodybuilder diet and, like you
said and you mentioned Ilana Mareating the donut, there's room
for it all.
Don't't.
Don't assume this falsedichotomy.
But you have to have structure,you have to have planning.
Right is that?
Is that the message here?

Anne Marie Chaker (23:43):
absolutely, absolutely, and that's really
kind of like.
That's continues to be like.
My challenge is, like you know,finding the.
I love the way actually you putit is the structure, having the
structure as the backbone andallowing yourself a life.
But always kind of coming backto the backbone of um, right now

(24:06):
, for instance, you know I'm inprep and I'm like weeks before
competition, so I'm not, I'mreally careful and um yeah, I'm
really dialed in, but in the,when the competition season is
over, I'm still tracking, youknow, I'm still tracking macros
and making sure I'm like hittingmy protein and allowing myself,

(24:27):
you know, I might have I don'tlike the term cheat days,
because I feel like but it'syeah, but I, you know, go on a
date night, allow myself a datenight with my husband or drink
wine and have like a wonderfulmeal, and that is totally
awesome and cool.
It's not every night, becausethen it wouldn't be special,
right.
But you know, a date night, orlike, if I'm, you know my kid is

(24:51):
having a birthday, like I'llenjoy birthday cake because it's
birthday cake, it's my kid,it's life, you know so it's not
like it's, it's not like it,just life, you know.
So, it's not like it's, it'snot like it.
Just because you're abodybuilder doesn't mean like
you're negating everything, youknow it's within a framework and
allowing yourself, you know thetimes, to enjoy the special
things which is important andvery important, you know, and

(25:15):
that's like, and they're special.

Philip Pape (25:16):
So yeah, and so I don't know how natural this
segue will be, but because we'retalking about bodybuilding and
also mentioned your age, thenatural question is okay,
perimenopause, menopause,hormones hot topic today.
We've touched on it on thisshow, talking about some of the
chain acceleration and musclemass, and obviously it's very
different from one woman to thenext as to how they're going to

(25:36):
respond and whether HRT is inthe mix and all this other stuff
.
I think the listener wants toknow that phase of life does it
present certain challenges forsome women that they need to
work around with their lifestyle, with their training, with
their food?
Because I know what a lot ofwomen tell me is I'm trying to
lose weight and I'm havingtrouble doing that, and it
becomes a weight loss discussionas opposed to, maybe, a

(25:57):
building or muscle discussion.
Where do you stand on all ofthat?
What should be the first focusfor someone in that age range?
What are your thoughts on allof that?
The perimenopause, training,lifestyle, all of that?

Anne Marie Chaker (26:10):
Yeah, no, it hit me.
You know, I kind of had thisidea of like menopause, like you
know, like I don't know it waslike for those people, like you
know.
And so when I started feelingthese symptoms I would say about
a year ago, and I thought a hotflash was like oh Lord, I'm

(26:31):
having, I'm hot.
No, it didn't feel that way tome at all.
It was like a prickly sensationand I thought I was having a
panic attack, like that's whatit felt like to me, like prickly
, like anxiety.
So I didn't associate it at allwith menopause.
But then it started happeningwith some frequency and I had

(26:53):
this like really bizarre roadrage incident with this other
driver and which was very unlikeme.
So I remember coming home andGoogling road rage and menopause
and it turns out rage is athing.
And then I realized the pricklyfeelings and then I was having
other symptoms and so, yes,menopause is real and I found

(27:19):
some relief with I take anestrogen patch and that has
helped a lot.
But it's funny, there was astory in the Wall Street Journal
about how, like certain phasesin your life where you age more
and like for men, it's likebetween I don't know, I don't
remember, it was like between 43and 44.
And like for women it was likebetween da, da, da, and it's

(27:41):
just like I just feel like thelast year has been like suddenly
, like I have hit, kind of likeI, I have aged more and I've
felt it at the gym, like I feellike my body feels different,
like I, you know, like I've aged, so I don't know.

(28:01):
It's kind of exciting thiscompetition season because I'll
see how things shake out.
Like you know, I no longer,like in the past I used to be
really competitive against otherpeople, like I used to really
want to win and kick butt andyou know, this time around I'm
more interested in like myself,like I still want to win and do
well, but I'm more interested inlike how I'm going, still want
to win and do well, but I'm moreinterested in like how I'm

(28:23):
going to look compared to thelast time I stepped on stage and
kind of this is so no, but I'mfeeling pretty good.
But it does feel like I willsay 50 feels different than the
last time I competed, which wasI was 48, 48 and a half.

Philip Pape (28:36):
Yeah, I mean I like that.
It sounds like a very healthyperspective of competing with
yourself, right?
Because one of the commonquestions I get is like how
strong should I be for my age,or how big should my muscles be
for my age, or how, whatever I'mlike, the best standard is
yourself, Like where were youlast year or last month or what
are you trying to improve in,and compare yourself to that.
But let's dig one level deeperthough, in the whole menopause

(28:58):
thing, because when I had HollyBaxter on the show and I asked
her the very first question,like what are most women not
doing or should do that they'renot doing, she said just
building muscle, like whetherit's in a calorie
surpluspost-menopause.

(29:19):
I mean really everybody.
As we age, we hit these agemarkers that you mentioned and
things start to change as well,as we've had a certain lifestyle
for like 20 years, 30 years.
That is, I guess, catching upto us, if you will Like.
Where should someone start?
Where should a woman listeninghere say, wow, Ann Maria, that's
awesome what you're doing?
I don't think I'm going to bein a show next year, necessarily
, but I want to get healthier.

(29:39):
What's the first step?

Anne Marie Chaker (29:41):
Yeah, that's a great question.
So a couple things.
You can decide whether you wantto do this at home or join the
gym.
My feeling is I like havingboth options.
It doesn't take a lot to have acouple things at home on days
where you can't make it to thegym.
Go to a corner of your house.
If you have a couple pairs ofdumbbells, maybe a band, you

(30:02):
actually get a good workout done.
The beauty of the gym is it'slike it's nice to get out, it's
nice to see other people, youmight make a couple friends, you
know, and you have space tokind of spread out there's more
stuff.
So I really enjoy going to agym and kind of seeing the
familiar faces and kind of highfiving my pals that I see there.

(30:24):
And benefit of gym too is ifyou join, like you'll get a
freebie session or two with apersonal trainer.
So really work them to give to,you know, push them, to give
you kind of a plan to start butreally like if you're doing some
kind of weight training threetimes a week, give it 30 minutes
three times a week.

(30:45):
I sort of feel like most peoplecan do that.
And when I say 30 minutes, likeyou know, the other day
somebody said oh yeah, it's 30minutes.
It's like yes, but make it 30minutes where you're not like
looking at your phone or staringat the wall or thinking about
something else, like really makeit that like I'm going to give
myself 30 minutes and I'm goingto be out the door and here's,

(31:07):
I'm going to do these three orfour exercises, you know, three
sets of 10, and like get it done.
But yeah, we're all guilty of,like you know, getting
distracted or looking at ourphone and wasting time, but,
like you know, if you make itefficient, you're likelier to,
you know, come back again andagain and and stay on top of it.

Philip Pape (31:25):
I feel like uh, yeah, we're all about efficiency
, because that that's one of thebiggest excuses to consistency
is the time and I like, how youmentioned, make it count.
Right?
I was listening to, I think DrMike is retell talking about
training hard and people willsay, well, I'm in the gym, you
know seven days a week, bro, andyou know I'm hitting, but of
course they are on your phone.
You're doing maybe one set.

(31:49):
You know you're not trainingwith relative.
You know you're at like five orsix reps shy of failure.
You know you're not traininghard.
But if you could, those 30minutes, like you said, three or
exercises which I look at yourcontent and it's what I would
expect for somebody who knowshow to lift.
It's a lot of compound liftsand variations on those and a
little bit of accessory work inthere, because obviously you're
a bodybuilder working on yourphysique.
What are those three to fourexercises in general for a new
lifter?

Anne Marie Chaker (32:10):
So I am a big fan of, I love the squat.
So having a barbell at home, Ithink is a good thing.
You can also do with justdumbbells.
But the squat, the deadlift,the chest press, you know, pull
up, those are kind of like mymeat and potatoes that I think

(32:31):
of.
And then from there, you know,then you can talk about rows or
other push exercises, pushupsand you know kind of work from
there.
But those really lead myworkout.
You know the hip thrust, thoselead the beginning of every one
of my workouts and you know,from there the accessory work is

(32:52):
really done at the end.

Philip Pape (32:54):
Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.

Lisa (32:56):
Hi, my name is Lisa and I'd like to give a big shout out
to my nutrition coach, philipPate.
With his coaching, I have lost17 pounds.
He helped me identify thereason that I wanted to lose
weight, and it's very simplelongevity.
I want to be healthy, activeand independent until the day I
die.
He introduced me to thiswonderful little app called
Macro Factor.
I got that part of my nutritionfigured out.
Along with that is the movementpart of nutrition.

(33:19):
There's a plan to it and hereally helped me with that.
The other thing he helped mewith was knowing that I need to
get a lot of steps in.
So the more steps you have, thehigher your expenditure is and
the easier it is to lose weight.
When it's presented to you likehe presents it, it makes even
more sense.
And the other thing that he hadwas a hunker guide and that
really helped me.
So thank you, Villa.

Philip Pape (33:40):
I still hear a lot of people wanting to do the
circuit YouTube workouts, and nojudgment.
I mean there's specifictrainers and workouts that are
very effective, but there is aculture correct me if I'm wrong
where, especially I see it withwomen they want to do these kind
of follow along circuit style,not very much rest.
What are your thoughts on thosetypes of workouts?

(34:02):
Can they be effective or not?

Anne Marie Chaker (34:05):
I think you know we've been conditioned to
think of exercise as like cardio, right, that you have to like
end it in a breathless state oflike puddle of sweat and want to
die in the middle of the floor.
And you know I none of myworkouts looks like that.
You know I hit an eight on thescale of one to 10 of the RPE

(34:30):
rate of perceived exertion.
The name of the game is tofatigue the muscle.
If you're fatiguing the muscle,then you're doing it right and
you know your body, you knowwhen you hit that point.
You know what an eight is on ascale from one to 10.
And then you know you keepdoing that, you keep lifting
heavy things and hitting thateight, and that's what you know.

(34:54):
I'm fatiguing, but in a good way, and I finish and I don't feel
like I'm dead.
I feel like I've put in a goodlift and I can move on with my
day.
Good lift and I can move onwith my day.
And then I am likely to do thatagain and again and again,

(35:15):
consistently.
That's the thing.
None of my workouts is likekill yourself material.
It's like it's a good lift andI do it consistently and that's
it.
That's not sexy, but that'swhat it is.

Philip Pape (35:28):
I mean you hit on at least three principles that
are important.
One you mentioned the eight RPEover and over again, which for
anybody who's thinking aboutthat would realize and
understand.
Strength.
That means you're actuallygoing to get stronger over time
because to be able to hit thateight the next time in the gym,
you've adapted and you've gottenstronger.
Right, that's a great approachto training.

(35:49):
What I want to do is connectthat to a little bit back to the
history again, maybe over thelast I don't know century or so,
when we think of the culture ofwomen in powerlifting, which
was kind of non-existent until Idon't know 60s, 70s, you tell
me, I'm not sure when womenpowerlifters even existed.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about that?

Anne Marie Chaker (36:10):
Women powerlifters.
So there's a chapter in thebook where I looked at strong
women over time, starting withkind of even the term strong
women we looked like in the1890s.
They were, you know, circusperformers.
They were you, you know, theywere anomalies.
They were almost like thebearded woman, like, oh, the

(36:31):
woman with the muscles, who'slike lifting the dumbbell, you
know.
So there was that.
And then over time there were,like these flickerage moments of
women athletes.
They're, you know, like theroller derby, you know it was
this whole thing like the sportin the 1940s and 50s where, like
, women were, you know, pushingand shoving each other around

(36:55):
and they were, you know, onroller skates and they, you know
, they were stars and peopleknew their names and they they
were on television and you know,for whatever reason, that kind
of fell out.
There was the queen of MuscleBeach, pudgy Stockton.
She was, you know, the firstwoman to wear a two-piece

(37:16):
bathing suit and you know, shekind of like was the starlet in
Hollywood of Muscle Beach andshe was kind of the first female
body.
So yeah, so, like over time.
Then what else did I writeabout?
The women of glow, the, thewomen wrestlers, and then the
dawn of you know femalebodybuilders around that time.

Philip Pape (37:38):
So yeah, yeah that show glows is good too if you
haven't seen, it was great.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I know, Iwas just wondering about that,
you know, because again, we keeptying it back to culture and
identity and I mentioned JenTodd because she was just in the
local newspaper, for somereason, talking about lifting
the Dinnie Stones over inScotland.

(38:00):
I hope I got that right and theidentity and psychology thing
is important, right, becausehere you are, you're a
journalist.
Maybe we could talk about didyou not lift?
Until when did you startlifting?
How old were you?

Anne Marie Chaker (38:20):
So it's funny growing up, the first time I
really hit a weight room waswhen I rode crew in college for
a time and that was the firsttime that, like the weight room
had come and I loved it.
I loved it, I felt like very athome and comfortable in it and I
could see changes happening inmy physique and and then that
just kind of disappeared.
Once I, you know, graduatedfrom college, like started life,

(38:42):
growing up, working, having aboss, paying off student loans,
like that space in my life wasgone and suddenly, like
everything exercise related wasabout, like you know, losing
weight and you know, or yoga orpolite or things that, like I
wasn't interested in.
So this was a different time.
But the weight room wasn'tsomething that, like I come back

(39:05):
to for decades.
So when I started with my coachagain when I, you know, in my
40s, it just felt like thiswonderful homecoming.
It's like, oh God, I rememberthis stuff and I did this stuff
when I was in college and feltso good then.
So it was just kind of likethis wonderful, like coming home
to my body.

Philip Pape (39:25):
So then, how it sounds like the relationship
with building the physicalstrength like changes your
psychological relationship witha lot of things, like with aging
, with your capability, withyour function, like how powerful
is that?
Because you're right, evenpeople.
I wasn't into athletics as ayoung person, so I just kind of
found it later in life.

(39:46):
But I equally see many, manydudes.
For example, who I know, a guy.
He was had interest from theYankees for the major leagues
when he was in college, you know, and he ended up being an
engineer.
And you know, you look at them10 years later you would have no
clue, right, cause he just gotinto that world, he stopped
lifting, he stopped being active, and so you kind of lose it.
How powerful is that, thatconnection?

Anne Marie Chaker (40:09):
that identity , especially for women.
Oh, it's everything.
It's everything.
It gives you a core sense ofcapability and confidence and
feeling like you can take careof yourself.
And the wonderful thing is like, now that I'm a mom, I love
that my daughters can see medoing this stuff in the basement
and they don't think it's weirdor anything.

(40:31):
And they've like started kindof picking up a dumbbell or
whatever and like becominginterested in doing it with me.
And so, like you know, I'm notgoing to say they do a whole lot
, they get bored very quicklybut at least they're like you
know, they're kind of like doingit with me and it's not weird
for them, and enjoying likecoursing around some weights and

(40:52):
stuff with their mom, somethingI never got to do with my mom.

Philip Pape (40:55):
Yeah, it's not like they're having fun.
That's the important thing atthat age, right yeah.

Anne Marie Chaker (40:59):
Yeah.

Philip Pape (41:00):
Yeah, yeah, and I think it's an underrated thing
is why I ask Cause it's untilyou do it you don't realize it.
I mean men and women.
You know, for me, just the ideaof doing this hard thing and
getting better.
There's a lot of things wecan't control in our life, right
, but we can control the shapingour body and then I think it
really does shape our mind.
So it's really powerful to hearwhat you've been through.

Anne Marie Chaker (41:21):
We're in our heads so much.
We're in here so much.
It's important, I think, tomake yourself do something hard
every day to push yourselfphysically to lift heavy things
and put them down and do thatand it's part of like what makes
us tick, like what makes us go.

(41:41):
We shouldn't lose sight of that.
It's a healthy thing, buildingyour strength.

Philip Pape (41:56):
All right.
So then, thinking about thesocietal relationship we started
with and the history and kindof the phase we're in now, you
know we've seen the explosionsof, for example, CrossFit.
Crossfit started around 2010 tobecome really popular.
Then we have things like OrangeTheory and Curves was around
for a while.
Right, Remember that.
Are they still around?
I don't know.
I think, they're still aroundBodybuilding right, which you

(42:18):
exemplify and powerlifting.
So what's next?
What's happening next?
How do we get the message out?
I mean, is this just a matterof women following the right
content and going to the gym andjust seeing how they feel?
Like do you have a system, aprocess and approach that you'd
recommend somebody you know do?
Or is it more on the food sidefirst, like, what are your
thoughts there?

Anne Marie Chaker (42:37):
I think they go hand in hand.
I think you know starting tothink about things that you want
to change.
So, on the food front, maybeit's like maybe you are snacking
on you know your kid's lunchboxor maybe you're eating out too
much, but find the one thingthat you think you'd like to

(42:59):
change and start therenutritionally For workouts.
I mean, I think you knowstarting with body weight is you
know, if you have a body, youhave a gym.
You don't necessarily need tobe lifting dumbbells.
You can start light or startjust getting used to the motion
with your own body and startingin a corner house, picking three

(43:23):
things Maybe one day it's anupper body, Maybe day two is a.
Chapter six of my book actuallygives you a nice way to frame
your week and think aboutpicking exercises and what to do
on each day of the week.
So I would, you know, recommendstarting.
You don't have to know anything.
So I recommend starting thereand think about joining a gym.
Pick a place that is withineasy reach of your house that

(43:47):
you're not going to be.
You know driving 15 minutes ormore, but you know within.
You know 10, 15 minute driveand aim to go there.
You know, once or twice a week,maybe it's like, one day you do
it at home, a couple of days youdo it at this gym and just kind
of like figure out your rhythmand see how that's working for
you.
And I think, getting out of thehouse.

(44:07):
I think it's good to have asetup at home, but I think
getting out of the house isreally important.
I think it's great.
I like seeing new people,meeting people, exchanging words
with people.
I think it's very healthy.
It's something that I reallyunderestimated the power of
community and you know needingeach other.
So I think I'm a big believerthat gyms and, you know, workout

(44:28):
spaces and studios can, canfulfill some of that for us.

Philip Pape (44:32):
I mean, it makes sense, the number one, the
number one factor for wellbeingis relationships right.
Is having having social network,and obviously you gave people a
framework for a lot offlexibility here and some really
good ideas, right, like maybeyou start at home, you maybe
have the gym, maybe mix, maybemix them both.
Right, people don't often thinkout of the box like that, like
I don't have to do it all at thegym, I don't have to do it all

(44:53):
with weights.
I love your quote.
If you have a body, you have agym.
Like no, there's no excuse.
But we're also not telling youlike yeah, you know, you got to.
I love that, because one of thefirst things people when they
ask me, like how should I train?
And I start to give themprinciples and they're like,

(45:13):
okay, what do I do with that?
And it's like, okay, here's asimple program that'll get you
started.
And then we can tie that backto the principles that
Anne-Marie talked about todayand training hard and putting
your you know, putting effortinto it and making it count.
Because why waste the timeYou're there to get some work
done, Right, awesome, all right.
So really good things, reallyempowering.
Is there anything you wish Ihad asked that we didn't cover

(45:36):
on this topic?
I'm sure there's a few things,but anything that comes to mind
that you wanted to answer.

Anne Marie Chaker (45:41):
No, I mean, I would just for women in
particular.
I would just, you know, don'tunderestimate your strength.
You, I would just you know,don't underestimate your
strength.
You know you are an athlete,you have always been one.
Even if you think you're not,you're not, you are.
You multitask like nobody'sbusiness.
Our bodies are incredible.
We bring life into the world.

(46:02):
We live longer than men.
We are so strong stronger thanmen in a lot of ways that you
know we didn't talk about, butthat you mean like childbirth,
that.
But also, you know, just like inthis day and age, when we're
obsessed with longevity, howinteresting is it that since the
dawn of time, across allcultures, women have lived

(46:24):
longer than men?
We still don't understandreally why.
And that's because, you know,we don't study women enough.
We tend to study men.
In terms of muscularity, youknow women have different types
of muscle fiber.
More of quick response.

Philip Pape (46:41):
Like power, explosiveness, yeah Right.
But women have more likeendurance, yeah.

Anne Marie Chaker (46:46):
And we are able to withstand and endure
more than men.
So I mean, just women are like,incredibly strong in ways that
we don't give ourselves enoughcredit for.
So build and capitalize on thatstrength and stop trying to
whittle yourself down.
Power yourself, build yourself,and you're so worth it.

Philip Pape (47:09):
You are, and I've seen I've been surprised myself
how many women, when they liftand kind of show me their
recoverability and their abilityto push reps and volume, like
there is a an edge that womenhave with recoverability and and
which almost means like youmight have to even work a little
hard in the gym sometime, causeyou can handle more, which is
fascinating.
So you said you are an athleteand have always been one.

(47:30):
We're going to leave it at that.
That's a beautiful quote.
Where do you want listeners tolearn more about you, anne-marie
?
And you work besides a book,which I will definitely link in
there as well as your sub stack,so I've already got you covered
there.

Anne Marie Chaker (47:40):
Okay, my website is annemariechakercom
and it's C-H-A-K-E-R-A-N-N-E, soA-N-N-E, mariechakercom, to
learn more about who I am andwhat I'm doing and what I'm
writing about.

Philip Pape (47:55):
Awesome.
We'll include that and all theother links in there.
Thank you again.
This is a fun topic.
I know we just barely scratchedthe surface.
You guys pick up her book ifyou want to learn a lot more
nerd out on that, or check herout on other podcasts as well.
And, marie, thank you so muchfor taking your time and being
on Wits and Weights.

Anne Marie Chaker (48:10):
Thank you, Philip.
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark

My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.

The Joe Rogan Experience

The Joe Rogan Experience

The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2025 iHeartMedia, Inc.