The RAW TRUTH About Fitness, AI, and Influencers (Adam Schafer of Mind Pump) | Ep 394 - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
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Philip Pape (00:01):
Have you ever felt like the more fitness content
you consume, the less confidentyou are about what you actually
should do?
If you're tracking everything,following the right people, but
you still can't quite track thecode on your own body.
If you wonder whether all theseapps and AI tools are helping
or adding more noise, thisepisode is for you.
Today, I'm talking with AdamSchaefer, co-founder of Mind

(00:23):
Pump, and we're gonna discuss araw fitness truth.
Having access to unlimitedinformation like this podcast
doesn't automatically lead toresults.
In fact, it often makes thingsharder.
Adam's going to walk us throughhow he filters signals from the
noise, where technologygenerally serves lifters, versus
where it falls short, and thecore principles that he's never

(00:45):
wavered on despite building amassive fitness media empire.
You'll learn how to build yourown decision-making framework,
how to experiment intelligentlywithout falling into dogma, and
what the future of fitness mightlook like.
Welcome to Wit and Weight, theshow that helps you build a

(01:07):
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering, and
efficiency.
I'm your host, Philip Pape, andtoday we're talking about how
to make sense of all the fitnessinformation out there in an age
where more content doesn'tnecessarily mean better results.
My guest is the Adam Schaefer,co-founder and co-host of Mind
Pump, which has become one ofthe world's leading fitness

(01:29):
podcasts, scaling it into aplatform that reaches millions
of lifters every month.
It's definitely in my feed,probably in yours.
If not, go and hit follow rightnow.
Adam has a pro card in men'sphysique bodybuilding and has
managed some of the largesthealth clubs in the Bay Area.
And if you listen to Mind Pumplike I do, you'll know he's big
on building sustainable habitswhile staying open to

(01:49):
experimentation.
He's someone who can tell youexactly what has not changed in
effective training over the pastdecade or two while also
sharing what he's currentlyexperimenting with himself.
Right now, I see that we're atthis inflection point where AI,
algorithms, influencer culture,social media are heavily
reshaping how people make theirfitness decisions.

(02:10):
So I think Adam's a perfect guyto help us make sense of it
all.
And today, you're gonna learnhow to develop your own
framework to evaluate all thisinformation, where technology
can be helpful versus wherehuman connection still matters
the most, and somenon-negotiables that Adam has
maintained while building one ofthe most trusted voices in
fitness.
Adam, it is really awesome tohave you here on Wits and

(02:32):
Weights.
I want to welcome you to theshow.

Adam Shafer (02:34):
Appreciate that, man.
Totally honored, love theintro, man.
I'm excited.

Yeah, man.
So uh before we startedrecording, I was talking, you
and I were talking about uhJamie Selzer, who was on the
show, right?
And he wanted to say, first ofall, that hello, and you've been
and you've been a hugesupporter in his process, and
you're one of the nicest guyshe's met along the way.
Um just want to put that outthere.
So shout out to you, Jamie.
Now so cool.

(02:57):
Now, Jamie is um, you know, hefound both of us through
podcasts.
So he obviously listens to alot of different shows, found
people he trusted, applied theknowledge, built consistency,
got the results.
Everyone who's listening rightnow, the you, the listener
listening, I know that's whatyou're trying to do.
But I also know that you haveaccess to more information now
than any generation in history.

(03:18):
And so why, Adam, this is aquestion for you.
Why are people having so muchtrouble putting all that
wonderful knowledge to use anddoing it consistently?

Yeah, it's an we're in an interesting time right
now where uh, I mean, the theamount of information uh in our
phone and access with AI is justit's unbelievable.
I mean, and if I don't know howmuch you've gotten familiar
with Chat GPT and just howamazing of a tool that is and

(03:48):
how fast you can get really goodanswers.
The problem with that is thatthere's so much information on
the internet that how you promptit really dictates what it
spits out.
And it's so it's funny youbring this up because I I was
literally just talking with mybrother-in-law maybe three, four

(04:09):
days ago, and I was venting tothe guys.
I he I talked to mybrother-in-law the night before
I come into work, and uh I go,man, I said, really interesting
thing happened to me last nightwith my brother-in-law.
I said, he he sends me, he'sgoing through a bunch of stuff
right now in his life, and uh,you know, he he is Googling me
or he's uh it texting me that hewas Googling uh TRT that he had

(04:33):
started about a year and a halfago or whatever.
And uh he's listing all thesethings, he's like, and he's he's
blaming TRT, you know.
Oh, and I check and he sends mea screenshot of what ChatGPT
had sent back to him.
And I tell my buddies, I'mlike, man, this is crazy.
I said, This is mybrother-in-law who's been in my
family for 20 years, very awareof the business.

(04:56):
In fact, his wife works for thecompany, so very, very familiar
with what I do, the contentthat I have.
Uh knows that I've had some ofthe most world-renowned doctors
and hormone specialists on myshows, uh, been on TRT for 20
years myself, trained hundreds,maybe thousands of people on it.
I have a whole entire forumwith a doctor dedicated to

(05:18):
hormones.
So I you would think that he'dgo directly to a source like
that, right?
With that kind of access andexperience, and just go, hey,
bro, and ask, ask me thequestion.
But instead, he went to ChatGPT, and then what it spit out
to him was uh kind of alarmingto me.
And I said, uh, I said, no,bro.

(05:38):
I said, I I don't agree withthat.
I said, um, you know, if youprompt and what I think he did
was he prompted it like this,where he said, What are all the
negative worst things couldhappen with with taking TRT?
And so it spit off a listbecause he because he prompted
that way.
And I said, Well, what if youwere to have prompted it?
What are all the negativeeffects of having low

(06:00):
testosterone as a 45,50-year-old, or 60-year-old man?
And watch what it spits off toyou.
I said, It's gonna send you abunch of alarming stuff too.
And it, but it was a reallyinteresting moment, it just
happened to me.
And I would tell them the guys,I'm like, we're entering this
time where here I have somebodyclose to me who has access to
someone like me who's gotreal-world experience for a very

(06:23):
long time with some of thebrightest minds in the world in
that in that topic.
And he went straight to ChatGPT for whatever reason.
And because of the way he'sprompting it, he got kind of a
bit of a confirmation bias towhat he was already kind of
thinking because of the way heprompted it.
And it just kind of hit melike, man, this is gonna be a

(06:45):
problem, you know.
Because I I would I would saythat I was one of the people
that really got excited aboutChat GPT, like, man, this is
awesome! What a brilliant tool.
This is gonna be mostly allpositive things.
But now I start to see where,like, oh, this could be a
problem.
And I've heard some crazystories of uh, I think just
recently the news hit where thekid basically committed suicide,

(07:05):
and it was because of theconver, and then they had the
whole log of the conversationthat he was having with AI, and
it kind of confirmed his bias onthat hey, his life is worth
nothing, he shouldn't be in thisworld, don't bother telling
crying out to anybody andbasically handle it yourself.
And uh, guy takes his kid takeshis life, and so yeah, it's

(07:27):
it's a bit uh alarming wherewe're going and that we're
already adopting it that fast.

Yeah, totally agree, man.
Like there was a South Parkepisode recently called
Sycopancy about that exact topicwhere the husband was like not
even wanting to talk to his wifeand and was going to chat GPT
to ask all the questions, and itwould just keep telling him
what he wanted to hear.
And I've seen that too, likelike you, I love to play around
with these things.
I was using a different AI theother day to kind of brainstorm
business ideas, and someonesaid, Hey, train your AI to tell

(07:56):
it to be honest with you andnot do that.
And I tried it out and I waslike, Oh, it actually started
giving me like this brutalfeedback, and I can see why
people don't want to hear thatbecause it says, it said, uh, it
said, Philip, you're stilltrying to do this, you know,
you're you're being emotionalabout it, you're trying to do
this.
Here's what you want to doinstead.
I'm like, oh yeah, this isinteresting.
It's crazy.

The way you prompt this thing is gonna be uh it's
gonna be really, reallyimportant.
And I'm I imagine that a lot ofthe conversations, a lot of the
education uh for the kids andthe generation coming up will
probably be around that becauseuh this is the stuff that we're
starting to see unfold.
I just thought it was so wildbecause it was so closely
connected to me and somethinglike that.

(08:36):
That like, man, I just I Idon't know if I would do that
still.
Like, and now I had to askmyself, like, if I have direct
access to somebody who I have alot of respect for in a field, I
still think I would go to thatdoctor or would go to that
professional before I got on toChat GPT because I think, and
maybe that's because of my ownexperience of just I uh in the

(08:57):
fitness world, I believe thatthere's a level of importance
when it comes to book knowledge,science, and what we've learned
from studies.
And then there's a lot of valuethat comes from just pure
application, real-world people,and the variables that come with
that, because science has doneincredible things for us to
steer us in many greatdirections.

(09:18):
And you know, you can look up adamn near study for anything to
get some idea of what maybe youshould or shouldn't do, but the
human element changes thatalways.
And I for every uh greatscience study that I've seen and
great rule that I've been told,I've seen the opposite, I've
seen it um not play out thatway.
And so because of that, I'm I'malways a little cautious of oh,

(09:41):
just because the research saysthis is the best option, it
doesn't mean it's uh gonna worka hundred percent of the time.
In fact, we don't have hardlyany studies at all that are like
that where we could replicateit a a hundred times over and it
always gives the same outcome.
And so, because of that, youhave to keep keep in mind that
you know, this is this answer,this AI tool is giving you,

(10:02):
isn't an end-all be-all.
It could possibly help us inthe right direction.
But yeah, so I don't know, I Icaution people uh because of
that, and I think that's it.
We're in this interesting timewhen there is there's just so
much information that even ayoung kid could get the all the
information that a PhD and 20years experience of of training

(10:24):
could get, at least all the allthe books and the and the stuff
that's put on the internet inregards to that at the in the
access of their hand.
But what you do with that, howyou prompt that, it's gonna
really matter.
And so, yeah, it's I don'tknow, I think I we're gonna get
dumber.
I mean, it another anotheranother example of this, we talk
about this on the show.
I'm I'm guilty of this.
Um, when I was a kid, I was uhyou know driving at 16, and uh

(10:48):
with this was beforepre-navigation.
So I'm dating myself a bithere.
Uh and I and that didn't exist.
And I remember uh I lived in alot of different towns and homes
growing up, prided myself onthe ability to be some go
somewhere one time and I couldgo back again, no problem, no
directions.
I just had a kind of aphotographic memory.
I I had the tree to the left,the red house on the right, the

(11:10):
blue door two blocks down.
Yeah, I could get there, noproblem.
And then also memorized everyfriend's phone number that I
had.
I didn't have to write any ofthat down.
I just knew them all, stillremember friends' numbers from
12, 13 years old.
Yet I don't know my wife'sphone number.
You know, and I don't uh Ican't get from my house to work
that I've driven for 10 yearswithout putting my navigation.

(11:32):
Like, so I have even thingslike that, I've outsourced those
skills so much that I've lostthem completely.
Now, it's probably not the endof the world that I'm not the
best navigation work because weall have navigation on our
phone.
It's pretty simple.
It's not that big of a dealthat I don't have all my friends
and my wife's phone numbersmemorized because we've all got

(11:53):
those phone books built into ourpockets now.
So maybe not that big of adeal, but I think we got to be
careful on how much of theseskills that we outsource uh to
this AI tool.
And I think this thing is is sopowerful.
Like it's not just one thing,it's not just navigation that
it's outsourcing, it'soutsourcing critical thinking

(12:14):
for so many things.
So it's I don't think we'veever seen anything, any
technology like this come intoplay.
And so, yeah, I'd reallycaution a lot of people that are
using it to navigate themthrough nutrition and exercise
and and the end-all be all.
I still think getting a hold ofa of somebody who's been
training people and in thefitness space for a really long

(12:35):
time is gonna be a better optionthan the internet as a as a
end-all be-all.

And you know what's cool about it is like when you
think of podcasts like yourswhere you do the the qua, right?
The listener questions, you'reeffectively doing that.
You're answering very specificcontextual questions.
And if you guys listen toenough of that, you can start to
learn to think about those foryourself.
And then just reach out tothese guys you you follow or and
trust, like Adam, like me, likeanybody.
Just send them a note becausethat's gonna be probably a more

(13:03):
accurate response.
And they're not always gonnahopefully just try to sell you
on a program, right?
You don't have to follow thoseguys who are just immediately
like, here's my product, here'smy paywall.
It's funny you mention likeyour was it your brother not
coming to you or or yeah, it'smy brother-in-law, right?
And and I don't know if it'spartly because people are I've
seen a change in generations aswell as since the pandemic of

(13:23):
people not wanting to just likereach out to people.
Maybe they're they're they'rekind of nervous to do that for
whatever reason, even if it'syour own brother.
But also, uh, I've talked to myown clients who've said, I
looked up on ChatGPT, I said,What would Phillips say about
this?
And I bet they do that aboutyou, Adam.
There's like, what would mindpump say about this?
And it's like, you can't eventrust that because it'll spit

(13:45):
out something.
And I'm like, nah, 80% of thatis wrong.
Yeah.
So it just cobbles together,you know, what it thinks.
So, all right, then that that'sa so that's good advice about
the AI side of things.
What about just in general?
Like, you guys cover a lot oftrends and info that's
constantly coming up practicallyevery day, because you publish
your episodes every day.

(14:05):
How do you even decide should Ipay attention to this or talk
about it or like what peoplecare about and need to know
about?
You know what I mean?
Like it's current event infitness, so to speak.

I mean, I think that uh the positive side for us
as content creators is itprovides endless content for us
to talk about.
I think rarely ever do we notcover it.
Like I think that if there'ssomething new, a new trend, a
new modality, uh a new tool, anew exercise somebody's doing,
uh, we tend to we tend to talkabout it.

(14:36):
I think it's it's it's goodconversation for us to discuss
it.
But then at the end of the day,I think we always go back to
the, I mean, things that we'veknown for a hundred years around
training.
And I mean, in fact, we did anepisode the other day, I don't
know, it was maybe last week orweek, two weeks ago, where we
were sitting down, we're like,if if someone said you could
only do you know six to eightexercises, what would the you

(14:58):
know, six to eight be?
Could could we put togethersomething that they could do
this just those six to eightexercises for the rest of their
life?
And and could we build a goodphysique and bulletproof their
joints?
And we we wrote something down,and we and in there were all
the basic movements.
It was the overhead press, itwas the squad, it was the
deadlift, it was a row, therewas a rotational movement, like
a windmill in there, there wasan and then like a full sit up.

(15:20):
Like so, I mean, we basicallywent, okay, well, multi-planar
exercise, some sort ofrotational, right, some sort of
ab exercise, and then the big,the big four lifts.
And if you did those movementsfor the rest of your life, and
only those movements, you couldbuild an incredibly fit-looking
and moving physique uh forever.

(15:41):
And yet we have so manydifferent exercises and so many
different ways to organize themand debate over what's better
for hypertrophy and what'sbetter for this.
And I just think that we'veovercomplicated a lot of that.
And I think what we try, and wedon't just dismiss people, I
think, that are asking that ortalking about that.
I think we what we really tryto do is distill it down to what

(16:04):
makes this new thing good, youknow, or what is interesting
about this new thing, but thenreminding people that, you know,
aside from the novelty of thisexercise, it doesn't trump these
movements that we've knownabout for a really long time.
Get good at those movements,uh, and it will serve you far
more than this new thing or newmodality or new technique or new

(16:27):
study that just came out andsaid, oh, this burns more body
fat.
So uh yeah, I think that that'sthat's what we've that that's
the core of the show.
It's been, you know, here's allthese neat things that we're
always learning about and we'rewatching, but there's some
really fundamental things thatwe've known for a really long
time that if you stick to thosebasics and you master those,

(16:49):
you'll be far better off thanyou know, figuring out a million
other.
I mean, what's the it's theBruce Lee quote, right?
Master one one punch.
I I fear the man who knowswho's done one punch a million
times than a man who knows amillion different punches.
It's just like it's the samething.
It's like nail those, nailthose four or five things down,
really get good at them becauseit takes time.

(17:09):
Like, I mean, I've beensquatting for 20 something
years.
I still don't consider myself aperfect or a great squatter.
So it's like it's a movementand that you you have a very
long window to get really goodat.
And what's great about that,that it's challenging, is that
it provides a lot of novelstimulus to you and a lot of

(17:29):
opportunity to get gains from itversus something that's very
basic and simple, a machine or anew tool, a new tool that came
out.
That's okay, cool.
This is a great novel stimulus,get some cool benefit from it,
but then uh then what?
Then then there the benefitsstart to diminish, and then
again, you're back to the coremovements that are really moving
the needle.
So, I mean, that's that's kindof how I look at it.

(17:51):
That's how we talk about it, Ifeel like.
I think, but it's interestingto discuss.
I mean, I have been in thespace for a long time, so I
enjoy the conversation aroundthese tools, these ideas, but at
the end of the day, we knowwhat it takes to build a really
healthy, strong body.

Yeah, and I think that's that's like the dichotomy
is all the all these coolthings at the top, and then you
end up steering the conversationslowly back to the principles.
And I like the way how you putit.
If you realize that there are acore set of bedrock principles
in the choice space, isn't thatbig, you can focus in and
develop depth in those, treatthem like the skills they are
and master them over time, whichmeans you don't have to be uh

(18:27):
hopping all over the place withdifferent techniques and tools
and uh the latest gadgets.
And it's funny because like Iknow he's controversial, Lyle
McDonald, but recently he postedsomebody, somebody said, So how
do I build muscle?
And he's like, You train andyou do a surplus, and that's all
there's ever been to it, right?
Like, you know, people arelooking for the complicated
answer.
And I hear it too.
Like, people are always whenyou do the Q ⁇ A's, you want to

(18:48):
kind of fill up the podcastepisode with some decent
thoughts and content.
And also keeping in mind peopleare new to this, to them, it is
very confusing, right?
Because there's so what do theytrust?
So yeah, I guess that's thenext that's a good segue to like
um, all right, let's saythey're listening to Mind Pump,
they're hearing you guys cometalk about this.
They're gonna hear the themesstart to solidify over time.

(19:10):
They will.
You'll hear squattingmentioned, you'll hear compound
lifts, you'll hear, you know,energy balance, right?
The evidence.
But somebody needs to takeaction on that.
Like the people want, you know,the listener right now wants to
do something about it.
How do they like get unstuck?
What's how did they startmoving the needle and take that
next step?

I I love that question because I think this is
the part.
I mean, if there was anythingcontroversial about mind pump or
that we talk about, I would sayit's it's our approach.
And I it's not, it's not sexy,it's not even a lot.
What we've learned over decadesof training so many people is
you really have to meet peoplewhere they're currently at if

(19:50):
you're gonna be successful,you're gonna have success with
them being consistent.
Sure, I could sit down, takeyour measurements, do your body
fat, track your steps, figureout, take a metabolic test to
figure out where your caloriesare supposed to be, and write
you up the perfect diet andexercise plan that will get you
jacked.
I mean, I could do that, Icould do that with anybody, but

(20:12):
that's not the real art oftraining somebody or getting
somebody to be very successfuland consistent.
The real art is figuring outthat individual where they're at
in their life and buildingsomething that kind of
complements their life that theycan do for the rest of their
life.
And that is so unique becausenow other than just their

(20:33):
physiology, now thepsychological psychology is
being played into this equation.
And that part is a massive partbecause if I have all those
breakdowns of your numbers ofwhat you should do, but then you
look at me and you go, Man,Adam, I just I hate going to the
gym.
It's awful.
It's I every time I go, I dreadit.

(20:53):
I don't like being there.
I feel insecure about theplace.
I feel like everyone's staringat me.
I always go for a couple weeksand then I quit after a while,
or it's just, I can't believe,you know, I can't commit to
going five days, whatever.
You're telling me all thisinformation.
And then what if what if myperfect plan for you includes
some of these things that you'retelling me?

(21:14):
You just don't like to like andand an experienced trainer will
hear that and go, like, okay,I've got to find another way to
move this person in in the rightdirection.
Or maybe you're telling meyou're a really busy dad and
you've got three businesses andyou got four kids and you travel
all over the place.
And again, I've got all yourphysiology down, and I know the

(21:36):
macros and the perfect programto get you jacked, and you're
telling me you want to getjacked, but then you're also
telling me you've got all theseother priorities in your life,
and you really don't care thatmuch about getting the gym, and
you also travel a lot.
So being really consistent withyour nutrition has been really
difficult.
So, you know, then I then Ihave to go, okay, well, maybe
he's not ready for a meal planthis constrained and this

(22:00):
strict.
It sounds like he's never evengone two weeks of consistently
hitting his protein targets.
So, you know, I'm gonna figureout this individual, and then
I'm I'm gonna listen to wherethey're at, what they've had
troubles with, how they've beenchallenged in the past, what
they really want.
And then I'm gonna go, okay,what are a couple things, really

(22:20):
simple things that I can addinto this person's life that
doesn't completely flip itupside down.
Now, granted, if they followthe exact plan that I know is
perfect for them, they would getto the set goal faster.
But what we what I understand,because I've been doing this so
long, is they're not gonna doit.
They're not gonna follow.
And so that, and to me, that'sthe real art of what we do is

(22:45):
the ability to know the perfectplan for this person to get to
their exact goal, but thenrecognize that that path is
different for every individual,no matter how much their
physiology matches the otherperson that said the same exact
goal.
It's oh, this individual, theseare our obstacles.
This is and and also theircommitment level to that, and

(23:08):
going like, okay, like I Isometimes will hear somebody who
has been trying to get intofitness for so long and they've
never been consistent.
But every time they'veattempted, they they get into
these four to five weeks, fiveto day week type of programs to
go, and it's like, hey, and andthey'll tell me, all right, I'm
I'm I'm motivated again, I'm I'mI'm ready, my calendar's clear,

(23:30):
I'm gonna go do this, andthey're like, I can do five days
a week, and you'll hear me oryou'll hear us on the show talk
somebody out of that.
No, why don't you why don't youstart with one?
Let's go one day, and they'reno, no, no, I'm I'm ready, I'm
ready to go now.
It's like, well, no, you'vedone that a hundred times
before, and it's it hasn'tworked out.
Maybe we try something a littlebit, maybe we commit less to

(23:51):
and so that comes off a bitcontroversial.
In fact, I we've had you knowuh people critique us and say,
oh, they're the the podcast justfor beginners, or you know, oh,
they're the the low intensityguys, or oh, they're the guys
that that hate on cardio andthey don't want it's like no, is
what what it is is that we'vetrained a lot of fucking people
between the three of us for areally long time, and we

(24:13):
understand human psychology,behavior psychology really well,
and we also understandphysiology, understand macros,
nutrition really well, and howto marry those uh for most
people.
And it doesn't mean that we getit right a hundred percent of
the time, but I'd say we'repretty good at it, and I can
hear somebody tell me theirgoals, tell me about their

(24:35):
history, and I can know what Ithink is the perfect path to get
them there the fastest, butthen also understand that that
path is probably not gonna workfor that person based off of the
information they've told me.
And so I've got to find adifferent way to get that
outcome, and that looksdifferent for every individual.
And so I'd say that's probablythe most like, and that's where
these like arguments or debatesthat people have online where

(24:58):
they're debating who's who'smore right, or my study that
just came out contradicts yourstudy, and this is what the
science says, and it's justlike, well, that's great.
I mean, I could I can have, forexample, if if if the science
said that waking up at 5 a.m.
burned you 20% more body fat ifyou just exercise at 5 a.m.,

(25:19):
well, then would we all work outat 5 a.m.?
We still wouldn't.
Some of us hate to work out atthat time.
And so just because the studiessay that that client could burn
20% more body fat, which I knowthat's not true, but it lets us
say it was, doesn't mean that Iwould still would tell every
client to work out at 5 a.m.
Because after I get to knowsomebody and I hear somebody
tell me something like, oh yeah,I stay up till one in the

(25:40):
morning every morning.
I I've I never get up beforeseven o'clock.
But yeah, okay, if I can burn20% more fat, I'll get up at
five.
I'm like, no, I'm not evengonna do that because I know
you're not gonna follow that.
And even if you do follow itfor a short period of time, it's
not gonna become a lifestylefor you.
It's not gonna become somethingyou do for the rest of your
life.
And that's my goal.
My goal is to not only get youto whatever said fitness goal
you have, but it's also to makethis a part of your life for the

(26:03):
rest of your life.
And that can come off, I think,controversial sometimes because
sometimes the decisions that wemake with callers or when we
help people flies in the face ofthe science sometimes.
And boy, science guys justdon't like that.
That they just chomp at the bitto try and tear that apart or
talk shit about that.
But it's just like, but thatalways tells me when someone

(26:26):
critiques what maybe we sayabout uh you know exercise or
nutrition or cardio or walkingor whatever the the commentary
is, that they probably have alot of book knowledge, but they
haven't probably trained a lotof real people in real life.
And fortunately for us, we'vegot both.
We've got a lot of a lot ofstudies, a lot of science, a lot

(26:48):
of national certifications.
Uh, and then we've trained alot of people for a very long
time.
And the combination of thathas, you know, forced my hand to
not always go in the directionof what the research tells me.
Uh, sometimes, sometimes myheart, my mind, and what I'm
hearing tells me something else.
It says, hey, you know, I knowwhat the science says I should

(27:11):
do right here, but I'm listeningto this person and I know what
the behavioral psychology isaround what this person is
saying.
Yeah, I'm gonna go thisdirection because I think that's
the best.
Learning to discern from that.
And if you're a listener rightnow and you're interested in
like finding good advice, likeyou're looking for somebody that
has that.
You're looking for somebody whohas got not only the science,

(27:31):
and so they can they cancommunicate the questions that
you have around physiology andnutrition and exercise science,
but then also tell you, but thisis what I've seen work really
well with a lot of my clients,or I've trained a lot of people
just like you, and this worksreally well.
Like, you want to hear a blendof both of those, I think, to
get yourself a really good coachor a really good guide in your

(27:54):
journey.
And I think that's going totrump these AI bots and tools
that we're gonna have.
And I think that's I thinkthat's I don't think uh because
everybody has the answer and theknowledge in their hand, we're
gonna have all of a sudden wayfitter people.
Because I don't think it's a Idon't think it's a lack of
knowledge that has kept allthese people from getting in
shape.
I I think it has more to dowith the behavioral psychology

(28:15):
side, is that people have a lotof insecurities that are driving
a lot of people are exercisingbecause they hate their body.
They're exercising working outbecause they don't like the way
they look.
And if you do it, if you workout in because you resent
yourself, that'll never last.
That'll even even if it's it'sa motivator in a short period of
time to maybe get you to lose afew pounds, or you can muscle

(28:39):
your way through it for a seasonto get in shape, but you're not
gonna make it a part of yourlife if you're doing it because
you don't love yourself, becauseyou resent the way you look or
you're insecure.
And until you fix thosepsychological things, those
hurdles that you have, you'reyou're gonna keep, you're gonna
be on the hamster wheel ofgaining weight, losing weight,
gaining weight, losing weight,or being in shape, falling out

(28:59):
of shape, being in shape,falling out of shape.
And uh I, you know, we justknow that from training so many
people that you you've got tofind, you've got to get to the
bottom of both.

Yeah, and if you're listening, like the wisdom
Adam's sharing is gold becauseI've only been in the coaching
space about five years, and itit only took a few months before
I realized this is not aboutinformation at all, like you
suggested.
There's the classic quote, Iknow what to do, I'm just not
doing it.
And you realize, well, it's notthe problem, isn't it you know,
that it's uh the psychology.
And that begs the questionlike, shouldn't psychology be

(29:28):
the foundational science and notnutrition physiology, for
example, because that's justnuts and bolts like gravity, you
know?

Like I tell you what, I whenever I meet a
trainer, um, you know, ofcourse, obviously we've met a
lot of trainers that listen tothe show so I doubt, and they
have a psychology background.
I always encourage them, godown, you're gonna be great.
Because I think I I got intothat later, not realizing what
an important so it wasn't likeuh somebody told me, Go learn

(29:56):
psych read.
Like I got into readingbehavioral psychology,
psychology.
Books in my mid-20s, uh, out ofa necessity of realizing, like,
man, I'm starting to pick upthat a lot of my job is I feel
like a kind of a counselor, youknow, like a lot of these
conversations I'm having withpeople is a lot less to do with
the X's and O's about nutritionand exercise, and a lot more

(30:18):
about what's going on in theirhead.
I'm like, I'm not reallyqualified for this.
And so that's what really sentme down the path.
And so when I meet somebodywho's get just getting into
training, or maybe they had abackground in psychology, I
always go, oh man, you'llprobably make a great trainer
because so much of our job isgetting down to a lot of these
behaviors that drive us, becauseyou can know what foods are

(30:42):
right for you to eat.
But if you have past traumasand behaviors built around these
poor decisions that you've beenmaking forever, just because
somebody tells you you can onlyeat these foods for the next six
weeks, and maybe you couldadhere to that for six weeks,
doesn't mean you fixed the rootcause of what drove you to those
behaviors in the first place.

(31:03):
And they're they'll rear theirheads and you'll eventually go
back.
And this is what happens topeople is they don't address the
root cause of what got them outof shape.
They think it's an X's and O'sthing.
They go hire somebody or theysearch Chat GBT, get the X's and
O's.
Maybe you have good discipline,and so you have the ability to
like white knuckle your waythrough the next six months or

(31:23):
whatever through discipline.
But then eventually that failsbecause you never address the
root cause.
Uh, and so it's like we got toget to that and how you got here
uh first and understand thosebehaviors so we can unpack them,
we can work on them.
And then along the way, we'regonna start adding some of these

(31:44):
great tips that I know aboutnutrition and exercise along the
way, and that's the path.
And so I do think that uhpsychology, behavioral science
should be a big piece of thetraining that trainers, and it's
just not.
I mean, we it's uh none of noneof us that get a certification
get taught any of that stuff,but I think it's it's paramount
to being a good a good trainer.

Yeah, man, it's true.
I I think there are probablyfour or five fields that get
neglected in this space.
Like one of them is behavioraleconomics, which is a good
understanding of why people makedecisions, you know, and how
you incentivize people.
And another is positivepsychology, which is a field
that I got exposed to throughthrough someone else a couple of
years back, but it's the ideaof having uh separating positive

(32:26):
and negative as two differentspaces.
Like a lot of people thinknegative is the opposite of
positive, but really you can addin positive to your life and it
tends to spiral up and crowdout negative.
And I hear you guys talkingabout a lot of that yourselves,
of this kind of what let mefocus on the approach and the
process and adding in, like yousaid, the two simple things I
need, and that's gonna nudge youin the right direction for you

(32:46):
in the most low friction way,least resistance because it's
built to you for your life.
And it's funny that that'scontroversial still, Adam.
I mean, those people can patand sand, honestly, because if
anything you've done, likelisten, think about yourself,
listener, like um anythingyou've gotten good at, you
didn't go hog wild and like 100%put on the pedal on day one on

(33:08):
that.
Like learn a musicalinstrument.
Oh man, you gotta learn thatnote of C.
You gotta learn how to like getyour weed right, read what.
You know what I mean?
It's like these little thingsthat move it forward.
So if you were to say tosomeone listening, hey, we,
Adam, with my experience andmind pump and everything else,
most people have these fivethings that are like usually the
big roadblocks for mostpeople's lifestyle.

(33:30):
And I know I'm asking you togeneralize a little bit and you
just said it's not general, butstill, there are certain things
a lot of people do strugglewith.
What's that like short listthat the listener can kind of
think about intentionally andthen take that step?

Well, I'll I'll address one that I think that
you you kind of just pointed atright now that I think is a
really important topic.
The thing that's interestingabout um exercise science is it
is so unlike anything else thatwe do in life.
Meaning, if I read more booksand and and work harder at that,

(34:05):
um I'm gonna get moreinformation, I'm gonna be
smarter.
If I work harder at my job, I'mprobably gonna get better at my
job and make more money.
If I study for that thing, I'mgonna have a better, like real
hard, stay up late all night,three nights, like I'm gonna
get, I'm gonna learn.
It serves us a lot of times tooverapply intensity towards a
goal.

(34:25):
Almost everything else you willget better at if you do it
harder and more.
Uh working out is not that way.
Uh, there's a there is anoptimal amount of intensity and
application towards exercise andnutrition that will garner the
most results.
And then there's things thatyou can do that will give you

(34:46):
the opposite of your results.
And so understanding that sweetspot is probably where a lot of
people miss and they tend toswing from one extreme to the
other, meaning I'm in a place inmy life right now where I'm
just I'm too busy, I'm stressed,I'm not going to the gym, I'm
not looking at my food, I don'tgive a shit right now, and I'm
just I'm eating when I eat, I'mtaking whatever, I'm not taking

(35:07):
care of myself.
And then it piles up.
And then one morning we go, ohmy God, or somebody says
something to us, or we show upto the doctor, and the doctor
says, You've got high bloodpressure now, or your
cholesterol's through the roof,or whatever, and then it scares
us into or light or wakes us upin that moment, goes, Oh my God,
I need to do something aboutit.
And so then you go from doingnothing to oh my god, I gotta

(35:31):
change this.
And so you're like, Well, theharder I go, the more I do, the
faster I'm gonna get to to saidgoal.
It's not true with fitness.
You can absolutely overapplythe intensity and do too much
that will result in less resultsor no results.
And why that's difficult isinitially it doesn't look like

(35:54):
that.
So this is a really commonpattern that I just described
the average person enter andinsert whatever reason got you
to start the gym, but that'skind of what happens is we're so
busy, we're not working out,we're not tracking food, we're
not doing any of that stuff.
Then all of a sudden somethinghappens, wakes us up, and we go,
or a birthday or a wedding, orwhatever, and we go, now we're
gonna go do this.

(36:15):
And then you go from here toall the way over here instantly
overnight.
And what here to over heremeans, not only does it mean
going, you weren't going to thegym at all to now you're going
four, five, six days a week, italso means you're also adding in
probably cardio in some ofthose days or on off days.
And then in addition to that,you went from eating all this

(36:36):
crappy food to now I'm doingchicken and salad, you know, and
that's what I'm that's what I'meating, or I'm doing now, or
I'm doing fasting and I'mintermittent fasting all the way
till six o'clock at night, andI'm only eating in this little
four-hour window or whatever.
And so you went, and what whathappens when you do that is you
send a signal to the body thatyou're training all these
weights and you're doing stuffthat the body goes, Oh wow,

(36:56):
we're lifting weights now.
We need to adapt, we need tobuild.
But then it goes over to thenutrition side and goes, Oh, but
he or she's starving mecompared to what I was eating
just two weeks ago, and there'snot enough material to do
anything with all this signalthat I'm getting.
So I'm getting this loud signalbecause my body's getting
hammered in the gym every day,but then my nutrition doesn't

(37:18):
align with the way I'm training.
And so, yeah, I burn a bunch ofcalories because I'm moving,
which ends up sending the wrongsignal to somebody who probably
wants to lose body fat or loseweight, because that's what most
people motivate the majority ofpeople to get back in the gym.
So, what happens is that personin the first two weeks sees the
scale go down.
Why?
Well, because you reduced yourcalories by a thousand to two

(37:41):
thousand calories a day becauseyou went from not tracking,
eating like shit, to all of asudden salads or a small eating
window.
And so your calories got cut inhalf.
You were doing no physicalactivity, now you're doing
activity every single day,whether that's running or all
the gym or your favorite, youknow, orange theory type of
class.
So, yeah, you did this with thecalorie balance game.
And so, what does that resultin?

(38:02):
Well, you probably pulled out abunch of water weight and you
definitely burned some calories,and so the scale does this, and
so you get this false signal ofdoing the right thing in the
first two weeks.
You go, Oh, hell yeah, I'm down10, 15 pounds already in the
first two weeks.
Let's keep it rolling, and thenthe next week you see about

(38:23):
five pounds more, and you'relike, all right, all right, man,
I gotta get a little bitharder, you know.
And so then you get to likeweek three or four, and you're
starting to hit this hardplateau.
And you're like, whoa, I'm not,I'm not even halfway to my goal
yet of where I'm trying to be,but I'm training five days a
week.
I'm eating four in four-hourwindows, I'm only eating this

(38:43):
many calories, I'm kicking myass in the gym.
Where do I go from here?
And that plays out unique anddifferent for every individual,
but it kind of looks a lot likethat in a lot of different ways,
as far as insert the differenttypes of cardio, insert
different types of trainingmodalities, insert different
diets restrictions that theywent to, but similar approach

(39:08):
and similar type of results.
And the that lever that theypulled, the eating less and just
moving more, you can only pullthat so many times.
And so maybe somebody gotlonger than the three or four
weeks I said, maybe they got toseven or eight weeks because
they were they started at threedays a week and then they went
to four and then they went tofive, or maybe they didn't start
with running yet, and then nowthey've added running every

(39:30):
single day.
But that's what it looks like.
And so it either happens atweek three or it happens at week
13, but it's gonna happensomewhere in those first few
months where pulling just thatlever doesn't result in any more
weight loss, and the bodyadapts.
The body goes, Oh, okay, she'sgonna beat me up like this every
day, make me run, and only giveme salads and chicken.

(39:52):
I'm gonna learn to survive.
Our bodies are incredible andresilient, and it goes, I'm
gonna learn to survive off ofall that she's giving me and how
much I'm training, and then itadapts, and then it no longer
sees any more results.
And this is the point wherepeople end up going, well, fuck
this.
I'm training seven days a week,I'm running, I'm barely eating

(40:13):
everything, and I'm only 15 or20 pounds lighter than what I
was when I was eating everythingI wanted, wasn't going to the
gym at all.
And it's very logical reason toquit.
I would quit.
I'd go, uh, all this work for alittle bit lighter.
I mean, nobody's even reallysaying anything to me yet.
I can barely tell that I lookdifferent or feel different.

(40:35):
And no, I'll go back to Fat Me.
Fat me was happier eatingDoritos and sitting on the
couch, and I wasn't doing allthis extra activity, and it's
like, and I'm it was a trade for15 pounds.
That's not worth it.
And that's where they throwtheir hands up, and or they
throw even more crazy stuff,which what we see when people
throw more crazy stuff and morerestriction and more movement is

(40:58):
eventually a hormonaldysfunction and then the the
really doing a lot of metabolicdamage that we have to unpack
later on.
That's a really common patternfor a lot of people is to go
from one extreme to the otherand then get a little bit of
false hope because initiallythat does move the scale down.
But if they actually were, ifif we had uh an ability to do a

(41:21):
real-time body fat analysis onthat person of what happened and
those 10 to 15 pounds, what youwould see is the 10 to 15
pounds they lost, half of it wasmuscle and half of it was fat.
So from a body fat percentage,that person didn't get any
healthier and in fact might havegone the opposite direction,
even though the scale showedthem that they dropped 50-15

(41:43):
pounds.
And so this is what happens tothese people is they don't even
realize that the the what theythought was good results were
not good results at all.
In fact, they were alreadyearly signs that you're losing
muscle along with this with thisbody fat, and you're not
getting any healthier, allyou're doing is slowing the
metabolism down and getting yourbody to adapt.

(42:05):
That happens to so many peoplewhen they first get inside the
gym.
And so understanding thatprobably an a second huge
mistake that I see that I thinkI we speak to so much is I don't
think I trained a client.
I mean, maybe maybe under fivepercent, definitely under five
percent of all the people I'veever trained, when I first do a

(42:29):
diet assessment.
And the way it looks like forme is what it used to look like
when I was a young trainer was Iwould do what I told you
before, where I figure out youryour physiology, your steps,
your movement, your age, all thecalculations have a calculation
of this is your macros, andthen I'd write a diet out for
you to follow.
It was a terrible idea.
What it looks like today, orwhat I've been helping people
for decades now, looks like islike I would tell you, I'd say,

(42:51):
All right, Philip, here's thedeal.
I want you to just track whatyou eat for the next week to two
weeks, 10 days typically iswhat I do.
Um don't try and impress me.
What I want to do is I want tolearn about you.
I want to learn about youreating patterns.
So if you eat a Snickers bar atlunch every day and it's pretty
consistent for you, I want youto actually do that.
I want you to eat how you eatso I can see your eating

(43:13):
patterns, and then I can then Ifrom there I can make minor
adjustments and they're and getus moving in the right
direction.
What has happened when I'velearned to go about this
approach is I see I one of thethings I see always is the
under-eating of protein,especially for somebody who's
going to be strength training.
So maybe they're notunder-eating essential protein,
and so I so people need tounderstand this.

(43:35):
There's a big differencebetween your RDA, your
recommended daily allowance,right?
So you what you just which yourbody just needs to survive
protein, versus I want to buildas much muscle as I possibly can
on my body, optimal protein,huge difference.
So a lot of people get close totheir essential protein, what
they just need to survive and beokay.

(43:56):
But the goal when we introducestrength training is to build
muscle.
That's what it's the mostprotective thing that we can do
for not only your joints, yourheart, your metabolism.
So building muscle is paramountto your long-term success.
Well, if we lift weights,that's only part of the
equation.
That's the the the part thatsends the signal to the body to

(44:20):
then go build this muscle.
It feels the working out isjust a stress.
So it feels us lifting weights,and it goes, okay, uh, he's
gonna, Adam's gonna make me dothis thing every day.
This is this is tough on mymuscles.
I need more muscle to do that.
So there's the signal tellingmy body to build it.
But then if I don't give it thenutrients, I don't give it the
protein, the additionalcalories, not under calories,

(44:41):
the additional calories and whatI need to just maintain, it's
not gonna build any muscle.
So all I'm doing is burning.
So the movements that I'm doingbecome almost irrelevant and
don't really get the benefits ofwhat they should because we're
not giving it the material tobuild the muscle, to then
protect the bones, to then speedthe metabolism up, to then make

(45:02):
fat loss much easier down theroad.
And so I'd say those are two ofthe biggest rocks or things
that somebody can focus on whenthey're getting started that I
think we do wrong is we go throwthe whole kitchen sink at it,
we undereat what the body needsto build muscle, and then we
don't hit enough protein intake.
That the two of those tend tobe the kind of the first two

(45:25):
things that I look at withanybody any goal.
So I don't care if you're askinny kid trying to build
muscle, the borderlineosteoporosis, 80-year-old woman,
or the uh obese 400-pound guywho's trying to lose 100 pounds.
Uh, what I do is I focus onbuilding muscle, doing it
slowly, hitting your proteintank.

(45:45):
And I'm sure with youinterviewed uh Jamie, this is
one of the this is why it worksso well from here.
You have this huge overweightguy who's listening to our
podcast and he's hearing thisinformation, going like, okay,
this is counterintuitive of whatI've heard, but I'm gonna I'm
gonna do it.
I mean, and and look and lookat how much weight this dude
lost without ever doing anycardio.

(46:06):
Yeah, and so that that wouldprobably be the third thing that
people do is they the the theamount of cardio people do it
with the it the intentions ofburning fat.
When we preach that cardio is aterrible tool for fat loss, but
it's been taught to us and toldto us by even the medical field
and doctors saying, Oh, get onthe treadmill or go run because

(46:27):
you're obese, it's like it is aterrible strategy for long-term
fat loss, short term in the in aquick window, and somebody
might go, Well, that's fine.
I just want to do it short, andthen I'll keep it off.
It's like, no, that's theproblem, is if you lose fat
through cardio in the shortterm, what that does to you
metabolically makes it verydifficult to keep it off because
on your way of reducing thecalories and increasing all the

(46:49):
cardio to burn that, say, 10pounds of fat, you also reduced
your metabolic rate by 500calories a day.
So you can now eat 500 lessthan even when you started this
journey, which that's evenworse, and that's even harder to
stay in shape.
You just made it harder foryourself.
So, yeah, understanding that umand and and approaching the the

(47:10):
gym a little bit different isprobably the main things I'd
focus on for most people, nomatter what the goal.

Yeah, and I like how you brought it back to, I
mean, it all comes back to theprinciple of hey, this is a
systematic, you know,methodical, patient process.
If you want, if you want quickweight loss or quick fat loss,
you can get it, but you're gonnasacrifice a lot and you're
gonna you're gonna gain theweight back and you're not gonna
have learned the skills thatyou need long term.
So you've got to make that uh,I would argue, really great

(47:37):
trade-off of spend the next fewmonths doing the two things you
talked about, which is first ofall, tracking, or not first of
all, the second thing youmentioned was just tracking to
get your baseline.
People, a lot of people don'twant to do that, right?
They just want to jump in andtake action.
Uh, but if you're doing, ifyou're changing 10 variables at
once, you have no idea what'scausing what, and then you
reinforce this negative uhfeedback loop of, like you said,

(47:58):
I lost 15 pounds.
So of course what I did equalsthe result, and it's not the
case.
So I mean, you're preaching thechoir, obviously, here, and
hopefully people who listen tothis show understand that, like,
you know, I don't, I I want youto take a good three months,
six months, sometimes two years.
It's gonna be the process tolike slowly build that muscle
and change your bodycomposition.
The cool thing is though, andand Adam, you can chime in on

(48:21):
this, you can get wins along theway.
You can get this sense ofinternal motivation from what
you're doing along the way,right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
So I think people want a win,and they may not even know the
right win, but what is it, whatare those things people then get
when they do this to know thatit's working right?

Yeah.
So so let's talk about whatthey get, and then let's also
talk about why that's difficultpsychologically.
So, what you get when you feedthe body properly, you hit
protein intake, you strengthtrain properly, you apply the
right amount of intensity two,three times a week, full body,
moderate intensity, and you hitprotein, is you get you build

(48:59):
muscle and you get strong.
And this is really exciting.
Now, what happens and why whatwhat why people struggle with
this psychologically is becausethey don't see huge movement on
the scale and or maybe even themirror, because it takes a
while.
When you stare at yourself inthe mirror multiple times a day,
it's really difficult for youto see the movement, like

(49:22):
somebody who hasn't seen you intwo or three weeks, who probably
comments, like, Oh man, Philip,you look really good.
You've been lifting weights,and you're like, Really?
You notice I feel like Ihaven't seen any change because
that's how we are.
We're our worst critics, andwe're looking at ourselves every
day.
So it's hard for us to see thatincremental change that's
happening.
So you don't see a lot ofchange in the mirror, you don't
see a lot of movement on thescale, even though you're doing

(49:44):
really well.
And so, one of the things youcan see, and why we tend to let
tell people to focus on strengthas such an incredible metric,
is that if you're gettingstronger in the gym, it is very,
very likely you are buildingmuscle.
And if you are building muscle,we know we're moving in the
right direction metabolicallyfor this long-term health

(50:07):
journey that we that we've we'veput you on.
And so what you can see andfeel, if and again, this is
other things to focus on becausewe focus so much on the mirror
on the scale is you know, energygoes up, libido goes up, better
sleep.
You notice your skin is better,your hair feels better, your
stool looks better, your moodgets better.

(50:30):
Like there's a lot of theseother metrics that are being
impacted from this feeding yourbody properly, strength training
properly, just a few days aweek, will start to garner right
away.
But we ignore it because we'vebeen taught to care just about
the mirror and the scale.
That we go two weeks go by andthe scale stays the same, and

(50:51):
you don't really see adifference in the mirror, and
you go, I'm not seeing anyresults, or this trainer's
terrible, fire him.
When in reality, you've builtsome muscle, you've lost a
little bit of body fat.
So you say just sayhypothetically in those two
weeks, you built one pound ofmuscle and you lost one pound of
fat, which means you'veactually made a big dent right
there.
You've actually added a poundof muscle on your body, you

(51:13):
actually burned a pound, butthen the scale says zero change.
So you go, Oh, I haven't reallychanged.
Like, no, absolutely, you builta pound of muscle and you lost
a pound of fat.
That's incredible, it's aperfect place to be.
And all those other markers I'mtalking about has probably
improved.
You just weren't looking atthem because all you cared about
was the scale in the mirror,and because that's not moving
fast enough for you, youactually think you're not seeing

(51:33):
as good of results as you'reactually really seeing.
And so when I get a client,especially, and here it just
goes back to how this wholeconversation started with its
psychology and listening to thethings they're saying.
If I have if I I can hear froma client how much they are
married to the scale, and manytimes, even with a weight loss
client, I will not allow them touse a scale.

(51:54):
And a lot of times that'sdifficult for them because
that's their met way ofmeasuring what they think is
success.
And I have to train them andteach them that.
No, it's not.
And in fact, it's been sendingyou the wrong message for a
really long time.
This is why I'm not gonna letyou use it.
You cannot get on it.
You got to throw it away.
We got to get rid of it, andyou got to trust me as your

(52:14):
guide to take you through thisjourney.
And that's really difficult forsome people to do, but they
have to do it, they have to moveaway from that because they're
interpreting the informationincorrectly.
And I've got to get them tolook at the other information
that their body is alreadytelling them.
And then when I can help themmake that connection, and what
that used to look like when Iwas a personal trainer is you

(52:34):
know, you see your client two,three times a week, you wouldn't
see them a couple days between,and then they see you and you
see them and you say, Hey,Susan, how'd you sleep last
night?
You know, how was yourproductivity at work?
How's the libido doing?
You notice a difference in yourstool?
Notice any difference with yourhair or your skin?
Like, so I have to be, I'd haveto be prompting and asking
these questions all the time toget them thinking about a lot of

(52:54):
times when you first do that,they're like, I don't, I don't
know.
I don't know.
Well, well, pay attention tothat.
I want you, okay, now betweentoday and when I see you on
Monday, really pay attention tothose things they're talking
about and see if you notice adifference.
And then they're starting thenthey start looking, right?
And then they go, Hey, you knowwhat?
Actually, now that I thinkabout it, I haven't I haven't
had a bad bathroom experience inthe last two weeks.
I'm like, yeah, that's youryour body is thanking you.

(53:17):
It's your digestive system isworking better and your stool is
better because of your eatingproperly, your exercise
properly.
You know what's crazy too?
I've had some really goodnights of sleep, and I noticed
my energy through the day.
I used to crash at two or threein the afternoon, and I've been
able to have sustained energythroughout the entire day.
And yeah, you know what?
My sex drive is up.
Oh, my husband and I are, youknow, you start hearing and

(53:38):
you're you're letting them knowlike this is all these signs are
signs that your body is tellingyou you are moving in the right
direction, the right way, thefastest way, the best way.
Um, and so if we can get peopleto focus more on those those
other metrics, uh, it wouldserve them in their long-term

(54:00):
pursuit.
Even if your goal is crazygoals, like you want to get
shredded and get on a stage andbe a bikini athlete or a
bodybuilder, or you want to havesix percent, like I don't have
the most extreme goal, you stillapproach it in that manner of
learning to listen to your body,guide you through this, these
decisions of making healthierchoices for your body versus

(54:21):
only the mirror and the scale,because that will steer you in
the wrong direction.
Because many times when I'mdoing the perfect diet, the
perfect training routine, thescale doesn't give me the
feedback that maybe I want.
A lot of times, sometimes iteven goes the opposite direction
a little bit because I'mholding a little bit of water.
You know, that day I'm a littleinflamed.

(54:42):
Maybe I ate something that wasuh didn't agree with my gut, and
so my body retains water.
Maybe I over-reached mytraining a little bit, so I
caused a little inflammation inthe body, which then retains
some water and held on to it,which then made me look a little
puffy and bloated and added onepound more on the scale.
And I go, Oh my god, I'mgetting fat.
No, I'm not.
I'm holding a little bit ofwater.
I over-trained a little bit ordidn't sleep so well last night,

(55:04):
or I ate that thing that eventhough the calories were okay,
it didn't agree with my gut, andmy body, my body got inflamed
for that.
And that makes me lookdifferent in the mirror.
That makes my scale go up atiny bit because I'm inflamed.
And now I, even though I'm I'mon a perfect routine, I'm
reading those signs thinking I'mdoing the wrong thing, and then
I overcorrect.

(55:24):
And I go, Oh shit, I gotta, Igotta cut some.
I I got I got fatter.
The pound went up on the scale.
I need to cut my calories more,or I need to add cardio now and
burn more.
And you and then you start toover and people do this all the
time when they're actually doingreally well and they don't
interpret the signs correctly,and then they overcorrect, which
is also why I think people likeyou and I have a job.

(55:47):
I mean, I think that the a lotof what we're talking about is
easy, I think, to understand.
It's hard to apply and read inreal time.
And I think it takes somebodywith experience and professional
people to kind of help somebodylearn that about this.
But then once you like it, likeeducation, once you learn it
and you figure it out and youunderstand this, it's so

(56:08):
invaluable because you'll havethis for the rest of your life.
You'll go, oh, this this life,you'll go, I get I get it now.
I know what I need to do.
Uh, and that is very empoweringand life-changing for most
people.

Yeah, that's super empowering.
I mean, you're creating asystem that you've never had
before.
And the confidence that comesfrom that, I know from personal
experience, because I'm 44,didn't figure it out until I was
like 40.
And once you do, you're like,whoa, this is life changing.
It's, I mean, it's like havinga financial planner or having,
you know, a professor orwhatever kind of teach you the
ropes and the system.
And I I got two really goodtakeaways here I want to

(56:41):
reinforce for the listener.
The first, the idea of payingattention cannot be understated
because what I hear you saying,it's not just this casual listen
to your body.
It is more of an objective,like specific things you should
be paying attention to,potentially documenting,
tracking, whatever that makessense for you, where it becomes
objective, even yourbiofeedback, your stool, you

(57:02):
know, I have my stool's gottenfirmer over the next the week,
you know, whatever.
And then combining that withlike a hierarchy of the things,
you know, the metrics, adashboard, I think of it, where
you have the PRs and thestrength at the top.
Maybe then you havebiofeedback, maybe your blood
labs are in there if you careabout health or whatever.
And then maybe body comps atthe bottom, because it's kind of
measuring the lagging output ofall this stuff.

(57:24):
But then you also mentionphysique competitors, which is
interesting because there's alot of misunderstanding there.
If you go through all this, youdo it well, you're eating
right, you're feeling great, andthen you get shredded, which is
gonna take a fat loss phase todo that.
Yeah.
I know you've said that some ofthe most insecure people you've
met are, you know, physiquecompetitors and coaches and

(57:45):
whatever.
And so let's reconcile thatthought for people that it's not
like, okay, you got shredded,so you've won the game and life
is over, right?
You could just die the next dayand you're happy.

So I was lucky to get introduced to the um it's
funny too.
I'm sitting in it.
This is my wife's office.
So for the people that arethinking that I'm not
narcissistic, that I have apicture of myself.
And this is not my office.
I'm in my wife's office thismorning, but I'm looking back at
a picture of when I was when Iwas competing.
And uh I was lucky I wasintroduced to that at 30 years

(58:16):
old.
So I'd already been a personaltrainer for over a decade and
had a lot of experience, hadworked on my own insecurities
around fitness and had a reallygood grasp of nutrition,
exercise science.
Uh, and so I went into it.
Uh, and the whole purpose ofwhy I got into it was it to
actually build uh mind pump, wasto build, I didn't know what
mind pump would look like atthat time, but I knew I was

(58:38):
trying to build an onlinee-commerce fitness business.
Didn't know Sal and those guysat that time, but I I knew I was
moving in that direction.
I had already started myYouTube channel and I had
started Instagram and I wasmoving in that direction.
And I thought, okay, maybe inmy little town, I'm a very
popular trainer, but to theworld, I'm nobody.
So how can I get known?

(59:00):
Um, well, uh, I've nevercompeted, um, but I I think I
have the knowledge and thediscipline to do it.
Um, what if I document thejourney of getting shredded for
people and show them how to doit?
And I don't hire a coach, Idon't hire a trainer, I do it
all myself, so I get the creditfor it, right?
So people are like, oh wow,this guy knows what he's doing,

(59:20):
right?
And so that was the wholepurpose of it for me was to do
that.
And uh, and of course, I I andI was one so when I would I got
on Instagram back in 2014, soearly days when when if you had
10,000 followers, you were kindof a big deal.
And so when I got on there,what I saw, at least from my

(59:41):
perspective right away, was oh,the the handful of people that
were really famous in this spacewere just these good looking
people that were super ripped,that had all these professional
photos taken of themselves, orthey were taking, they had, I
mean, they had the professionallighting, they would take get a
pump, then they were in a goodstudio.
And I'm like, this doesn'treally look like real life to

(01:00:03):
me.
Like, I know what it's like totry and get in shape, get people
in shape.
And this is doctored, this isyou know produced to look way
better than what it is.
I don't, I don't look like thatfirst thing in the morning.
And and so my plan was I'mgonna be very authentic,
transparent.
I'm gonna wake up first thingin the morning in my terrible
lighting in my bathroom mirrorand take a picture of myself,

(01:00:25):
not flexing, not pumped, justthis is what I look like, and
then tell you what I'm doing toget in shape.
And that actually got a lot ofa lot of traction and a lot of
attention.
It grew me to over 10,000followers back when 10,000
followers was a lot of people.
And I got a lot of attentionfor that.
And that was the the reason fordoing the training.

(01:00:45):
It was like, oh wow, if I justdid this first transformation of
getting down to 7% body fat, ifI take this all the way to the
competing level, maybe I'll getmore attention from more people.
This will help build thebusiness.
I also was a bit excitedbecause at this point I've
actually never I didn't followbodybuilding, I didn't know much
about it.
I knew there was a men'sphysique category, which I

(01:01:06):
thought my body type fit.
I'm six foot three, longwingspan, small waist, very
skinny kind of build.
I thought, okay, I could dothat.
I'm not gonna, I couldn't dobodybuilding.
Uh I didn't want to take theamount of steroids I would need
to take to even come close tocompeting with that.
And so I was like, men'sphysique, I could, I could
probably do.
Uh and uh I thought, well, thiswill also be cool because I'll

(01:01:29):
get to meet probably some of thebrightest, smartest people in
the world because these are thebest physiques in the world.
And so I was really intrigued.
And I remember gettingbackstage, my first show, I was
completely shredded.
I got down to like 3% body fat.
Um, in fact, I was tooshredded.
That was the feedback I got umfrom the judges.
Was like, oh my God, you werelike bodybuilder shredded.
Uh, that's not what we're backearly on days.

(01:01:51):
If you look at the journey ofmen's physique, it used to have
a little bit of a uh board shortmodel look more than it had
like a heart.
I that I was a part of thatevolution of it getting really
hard.
And so I came in really hard,and they were like, Yeah, no,
that's that's too much.
Um, and then I got backstagewith all these amateurs and I'm

(01:02:12):
talking to them.
Now I'm a trainer for over adecade, and I'm meeting these
incredible bodies, and I'mtalking to them, and I'm
listening to their trainingprotocol, and I'm listening to
their diet, and I'm going, like,that is not, that's not an
ideal.
And I started helping a lot ofthem, like, you know, maybe do
this.
And I, because I looked so goodso quick, I got a lot of
respect from my peers who didn'tknow who I was, and and they're

(01:02:34):
and I'm and I'm explaining kindof the science of like, yeah,
this is probably a betterapproach to do diet this way, or
probably you know, scale yourexercising this way.
And when you're in that much ofa calorie deficit, you should
probably modify the intensityhere.
So I'm kind of like teachingthem in the background, and I'm
and I'm like, wow, I got theseamateurs really, even though
their bodies look great, theyreally don't know what they're
doing.
They just have some crazydiscipline to eat hardly

(01:02:57):
anything and train like amonster for a year straight, you
know.
And so I thought, well, maybewhen I get to the national
level, you know, that's wherethe like the where the smart
guys are at, you know.
I made my way, I won my firstshow, make my way to the USA's,
get backstage there, same thing.
I'm like, okay, well, this hasgot to be the difference between
professional league and justthe people that don't don't make

(01:03:20):
it there.
And I'm so, and I win, I winUSA's, I go pro, and I get at
the professional, and I find thesame thing.
And what I find is that theseare some of the most disciplined
people I've ever met in mylife.
So disciplined that they havegotten in shape in spite of what
the science says, and in spiteof a healthy relationship with

(01:03:41):
exercise and nutrition.
These are not the brightest,smartest, balanced, healthy
people.
In fact, most of them hadcrippling insecurities.
Most, most of these people Iwas backstage with that were 3%
body fat and looked better than99.9% of the world were insecure
about the way they looked andthought they were fat or their

(01:04:02):
arms were too small or theirchest, like they were massively
insecure about the way theylooked.
And this is what drove them totrain so hard and restrict so
hard and to be so consistent forso long is because they had
these crippling insecuritiesabout how they looked.
And I went, Whoa, this iscrazy.
It was super enlightening tome.

(01:04:24):
Um that and I'm talking all ofthem.
This isn't like me, and I'm I II may sound like I'm
overgeneralizing, and I'm suresomebody listening who competes
that would would argue with methat they have a healthy.
Okay, I'll give you fivepercent that I I were was
unaware of or I didn't get achance to meet, might have had a
healthy.
I I'm sure I wasn't the onlyguy who was mature and and and

(01:04:48):
got into it and passed afterhe'd worked through his
insecurity.
So I'm sure there's apercentage that are so I'm I'm
overgeneralizing a bit, but Ieverybody I met and talked to,
massively insecure.
And I found that in thepodcasting spaces, I got to meet
a lot of famous people online,that some of the people that we
all look up to and aspire to belike and revere is like, oh my

(01:05:11):
God, the most healthiest peopleare some of the most unhealthy
people, not from a body fatpercentage, but from an
internal, yeah, mentally andpsychological.
They were crippled and by thesethese either traumas they had
early or insecurities aroundbody, they had body dysmorphia
just from a different, adifferent level.
A lot of times we think bodydysmorphia, it's these people

(01:05:34):
that do weird things to theirbody or allow themselves to get
super obese, but there's youknow the opposite.
You know, you have these peoplethat uh think they're fat when
they're not, and they have tothey they they're orthorexics,
and that's what bodybuilding wasfull of.
And you hear more people likefriends of mine like Ben
Pikolski and uh Phil Heath,they're coming out now talking

(01:05:56):
about it, and it's it's becomeyou know in vogue to come
forward, be authentic, shareyour insecurities now.
But that wasn't a popular thingwhen I was going through it.
Nobody was authentic like that,nobody was being honest with
how insecure they were abouttheir bodies because they were
being told how amazing theywere, and they were getting all
this publicity and all this fameand attention for how amazing

(01:06:17):
they were.
So it was just feeding that egoand feeding that insecurity.

Jorge (01:06:22):
Hello everyone.
Um, my name is Jorge, and Ijust kind of want to share a
little bit about my experienceuh with Wits and Weights.
So I've been blown away fromday one, honestly.
The best thing about uh Witsand Weights University is that
Coach Phillip has everythingthat we need all in one place.
It's easy to follow, it's easyto understand, it didn't give

(01:06:42):
you like an introduction courseat the beginning so you can know
exactly what to do.
It kind of made me veryconscious of my nutrition and
it's kind of set me in the rightpath in the right direction.
So honestly, I cannot recommendit enough.
One of the best things is thatwhenever you have any type of
question, it's answered within15-30 minutes.

(01:07:03):
You feel welcome, you feelgood, and like somebody's
helping you.
Everything you need is there,all you have to do is basically
come and join us.
See you there.

Adam Shafer (01:07:11):
And so it's a very dangerous thing that we use that
as the main metric of what wethink is success and what are
the best, the smartest, or thebrightest people in the space is
well, you know, and and you youcould you take me for an
example.
Like I don't carry myselfripped year-round at all.
I have a very average body fatpercentage, somewhere that

(01:07:32):
hovers between 11 and 15percent, 90% of the year.
Every once in a while, probablyonce a year, I get a kick where
I'm like, oh, I'm gonna getlean and I drop down to single
digits for a short period oftime.
But for the most part, I looklike a pretty average-looking
guy who works out.
Now, I don't look uh so averagethat you wouldn't look at me
and you think I work, I've beenworking out for two and a half
decades, so I've definitely gotsome muscle on me.

(01:07:53):
But I'm I don't look impressiveto my peers on Instagram.
I mean, there's a lot offitness people that look
shredded year round.
And I'll tell you right now,they look if you carry yourself
shredded and buff and perfectbody year round, you've got
something going on.
You have dysfunction.
Yeah, you've got this, you havedysfunction going on.
And if you as a consumer arefollowing that person for it

(01:08:15):
advice, buyer beware.
That person that you think isso healthy or you admire so much
because the way they look, I'mtelling you right now, from
experience of hanging out withall of them, because I've been
around all of them, is they areas unhealthy as you are.
The difference is your body fatunhealthy.
You've you're you're at 20, 30percent body fat and you need to

(01:08:38):
lean out a little bit.
They're psychologically traumaand security broken inside.
And that is they've used thatto discipline them to keep their
body fat a certain way for somepersonal.
And we live in a world nowwhere these people are idolized
because of a platform likeInstagram or YouTube, and it's

(01:08:59):
unfortunate because you have alot of people that these people
are leading, and sure, theyunderstand macros and exercise
uh decent, but they're leadingthem down a path that is
probably not gonna serve them.
And this is super common in ourspace in bodybuilding, in
women's bikini, men's physique,bodybuilding, and these

(01:09:23):
Instagram people that we followthat are ripped year-round.

Philip Pape (01:09:27):
And that's why I wanted to bring it up with you
because that is what a lot ofpeople's content is coming from,
you know.
And it's funny because I'm notshredded, ripped, or anything.
I started in my 40s.
I feel like I have good thingsto say and I want to help
people.
And I don't know if it's abenefit or not that I'm not at
that level because I don't claimto be and like I have to lean
on the way I've improvedpersonally and help people

(01:09:49):
improve as opposed to that.
But like there is a lot ofmessaging around uh the best
fitness coaches are the onesthat look the best, you know,
that kind of fit of messaging wehear.
And also your mess, yourmessage here that a poor
relationship with your body thatgets fed, that feeds this uh
obsession to get shredded justgets worse and worse once you
get there.
And so having said that, whensomeone, if someone's listening,

(01:10:12):
kind of thinking that way, I'mno, we're not gonna solve
everyone's like deep mentalstruggles on this podcast, but
how do we either reframe orredirect those motivations?
Like what is what is theexercise or is the or the tip to
redirect that?

Sal, Sal said something on our pocket.
My co-host Sal said somethingon the podcast that went viral a
long time ago.
And uh, we made t-shirts out ofit, and and uh it's something
we bring up all the time, whichwas chase health and aesthetics
will follow.
Chase aesthetics, and you willmost certainly lose aesthetics
efficiently.
So you chasing health willactually lead to that body that

(01:10:49):
you really want, focusing onhealth.
If you use all those markersthat I was talking about, always
trying to get better sleep,always trying to improve your
libido, always working on betterskin, better digestion, better
stools.
Like if you are using thosebetter strength, like if you are
better stamina, you are usingall those metrics as the things

(01:11:11):
that you are always focused on,and you're incrementally getting
a little bit better at allthose over time, and they just
keep getting better, better,better, better.
Well, when you look back aftera year or two years of chasing
that, you're gonna be ripped.
You're gonna look amazing.
You're gonna you're gonna haveachieved that thing that's
driving you.
If you do anything andeverything you could to achieve

(01:11:33):
aesthetics, and that's all youcare about, and you ignore all
the other signals, then it willlead you down a path of hormone
dysfunction, um, cortisoljunkie, like it'll cause a whole
host of problems, of healthproblems in your life
eventually.
Maybe not at first, maybetaking the steroids, doing all
the things will serve youinitially, but over time, a lot

(01:11:57):
of those things will haveadverse effects, and you'll
eventually lose the aesthetics,even if you got them by chasing
them at first.
Yeah, so chase health,aesthetics will follow.
And I think that it's it's away better guiding principle for
people, and you will, you'llget what you want.
Because I get I get too, yeah.
I was a young kid who said, Iused to say, I'll show, no go,

(01:12:19):
all I care about is the way Ilook.
And I used to I used to tellpeople when they asked me, like,
oh, what do you?
I was a trainer for years,never did a PR, never cared
about how much I bench press.
And somebody would ask me, Howmuch do you bench press?
And I'd say some line, like,Listen, I've never taken my
shirt off, and a girl asked mehow much I bench press, so all I
care about is what it lookslike.
Does she does her jaw drop?
Does she go, oh, he's goodlooking?

(01:12:39):
Like, and so I that's how Itrain.
Like, so I don't care.
And so I get it.
I get what it's like to havethat mindset of like, I don't
care, I just care about how Ilook.
But if you chase the health,you will get the look thing.
You will get the body you want,and you'll do it in a way that
is healthy and maintainable.
So if you want that aestheticlook and you want to keep it for

(01:13:02):
the rest of your life, thenchase health and you'll get it.
You will only get ittemporarily if you chase
aesthetics.

Long-term aesthetics are an expression of
long-term health.
So love it.
That's perfect.
And it ties exactly to what wewere talking about with the
metrics.
So pivoting just a little bitbecause you personally are at
the at the point now where Iknow you're experimenting with
lots of things and you talkabout it on the show, and and I
can't keep track of the wholelist of things you've done, but
I know you've experimented withvery long fasts.

(01:13:30):
Uh, I know you've experimentedlike strange macros, like really
high fat macros or something.
Like, is there any one of thosethat's that you're testing
right now or something or and orsomething you've learned?
Hey, my my body responds verydifferently from what the
science might suggest as adefault.
And that was what I learnedthrough the experimentation, or
something like that.

Yeah, no, that's an interesting question.
Uh current currently, rightnow, I'm not doing anything in
particular nutrition diet.
Um, I'm very intuitive eatingright now.
Um but you're right.
I've I have literally I've ranevery popular diet you can think
of.
I've messed with peptides, I'vemessed with GLP ones, been on
hormone therapy since I was 30years old.

(01:14:11):
There's a lot of things that umI've tested.
And what I have found is thatthere's different there's
different ways of eating,there's different ways of
training that serves differentversions of me, even.
And so it really depends on uhthe the period of like life that
I'm in at the moment.
Right now, I'm in a in astretch where I'm heavily

(01:14:32):
focused on business and my son.
So a lot of my attentionoutside of the actual workout of
the work is working on morework because I'm trying to build
another business and I'mscaling and we're hiring, and
that requires a lot of myattention.
And I have a six-year-old sonthat I'm absolutely uh addicted
to and want to be so much of hislife, and so those two things

(01:14:56):
tend to take a lot of priority,and so my training and diet
right now look veryminimalistic.
I'm lucky to get two days oflifting in a week right now.
Um, sometimes they're a little15, 20 minutes.
Sometimes, I mean, yesterday,all I did was I squatted five
sets and left.
That's all I did.
And my diet, I'm not weighing,chasing macros.

(01:15:16):
I do, we do, we're really goodin my family about targeting uh
whole foods.
I I eat we eat a lot of meat umand I eat protein.
So I do follow a lot of thethings that I I coach on the
podcast of like for somebodywho's trying to stay healthy and
fit.
And I find when I prioritizehealthy foods, whole foods, and
I just eat the protein first, Ican really I can play this game

(01:15:41):
of telling myself, like I haveice cream in my freezer, and
that's ice cream is one of my mytotal uh kryptonite, right?
To staying in shape.
Likewise.
But I find I find if I stick tolike my, if I'm training two,
three times a week, I am goingafter whole foods, hitting
protein first, then I can enjoyuh a bowl of ice cream here and

(01:16:03):
there, a couple times a week, noproblem, and enjoy that and
still maintain a very healthyfit physique, maintaining that
11 to 15% range that I'm talkingabout uh while only training
that much.
And so I'm in that phase rightnow of very, very minimalist
around my diet, very minimalistaround my training, really heavy
focused on my son and mybusiness right now.

(01:16:24):
But that that always flips.
I mean, there they're all likejust last year, I did a series
uh on YouTube where I documentedme getting in really good shape
again.
I I think I was up, I think Igot all the way up to uh 17%
body fat or something like that,which is would be considered
high for me at this point in mylife, and uh documented me

(01:16:46):
coming all the way down tosingle digits and uh and showed
people actually how little I didso uh to to get there.
So it was, I mean, I would goin two exercises, that's it.
I just do two exercises,moderate intensity, and then I
would just like we talked aboutthat we started this podcast, I
would make little adjustmentsevery week.
I wouldn't go throw the wholekitchen sink at once, I wouldn't

(01:17:07):
go hard strict diet.
I would tell it, I would talkto the camera, like, all right,
this week I'm just gonna dothese things and focus on that.
And then next week I'm gonnatweak this and I just turn the
night and then I showed thisprogression, and you know, then
I was in shape for a while, thenI was a little bit more into
tracking and paying attention.
So I think it's important thatyou find things that that like I

(01:17:29):
know uh if I want to be on apodcast like this, I do much
better in a fasted state or on aketogenic diet.
I just have better mentalclarity.
If I were to get up, if I wouldhave got up before you and had
a stack of pancakes, um, andthen I I would feel a difference
in my conversational skillswith you.
And so I'm just I'm way sharperwhen I eat that way.

(01:17:53):
And so that's a classic exampleof how I'll modify something
day to day based off ofsomething that I don't do a lot
of podcasts at eight o'clock inthe morning.
And so if I'm gonna dosomething like that, I'm gonna
pay attention to what I ate lastnight or what I eat in the
morning.
Where if I wasn't podcastingwith you today, then maybe I
wouldn't care.
Maybe I'd get up and I'd havethe normal breakfast or

(01:18:15):
whatever.
And so I think one of the mostawesome things about playing
with different diets, alwaysusing the those metrics that I
talked about, scan, hair,libido, all those things as like
the movers, is you can start totell, like, oh, I noticed when
I I eat this way, for example, Ihave a better libido and sex
drive when I actually have carbsin the diet.

(01:18:37):
So even though ketogenic dietand low carb serves me really
well for maintaining body fat orstaying kind of on the leaner
side, like when I eat high fats,low carb, it's really easy to
keep calories down for me.
It's really easy for me to kindof stay in shape and not put
body fat on.
But I also notice my energylevels kind of dip and my libido

(01:18:58):
kind of dips.
Well, you know, I'm married toa beautiful woman that I don't
want my libido dipping.
So I'm gonna modify that andI'm gonna introduce that.
Now, maybe there's a week whereher and I are in different
places of the country and Idon't need a I don't need a
strong libido.
I'm not traveling and I justwant to stay fit.
I don't want to make badchoices, so maybe I'll go

(01:19:18):
ketogenic.
And so what's so fun about thisjourney that we're all kind of
on is trying different thingsand then paying attention to
those metrics that we're talkingabout and seeing how all of
them, all the different diets,all the different ways of
eating, all the differentpeptides, all the different
supplements, all these thingsaffect that, and knowing that I

(01:19:40):
can kind of pull from each ofthem depending on what part of
my life or phase I'm in.
And I personally, and this ismy opinion, that I think that's
a very healthy relationship withexercise and nutrition.
I don't uh you probably getsomebody else on this show
you'll interview, and they'll belike, I work out these days,
eat this way, I train these, andit's like that.
That's not me.

(01:20:00):
Like, I I uh I want to behealthy, and healthy for me is
typically somewhere between 11and 15% body fat, training a few
times a week to where Imaintain strength.
I will I always want to be ableto deadlift north of 300
pounds, squat north of 300pounds, bench press 200 plus

(01:20:21):
pounds, and rotate, move, sitdown in an Astograss squat, play
with my kid and his Legos in asquat position comfortably and
not hurt.
These are the these are themetrics that I pay attention to,
and I want to do as very littlein the gym to maintain those.
And so, and that way I canallocate that extra time to the

(01:20:42):
other priorities of my life thatI think fulfill me way more
than being two more percentleaner or five percent stronger.
Like that's it.
Like, if I can deadlift, squatthat way, get down like that,
rotate and move like that.
Uh, one, I can kick most dads'asses that my son goes to school
with.
I can do all the things in mylife that I want to.
I feel healthy, I'm not gonnahave health problems, my blood

(01:21:04):
markers didn't come back good,and I'm applying very little
effort towards it.
Like that's the ultimate goalfor myself.
And so, yeah, it looksdifferent and it ebbs and flows
based off of what's currentlygoing on in my life.

Yeah, and that connects perfectly to what you
started saying with the matchingthe initial part of the journey
to someone's lifestyle.
And then as you track thethings, as you care about
metrics that aren't weight onthe scale, as you learn what
works, this flexible approachmeans it's sustainable, right?
It means that you can go withthe flow of what's happening in
your life, even day to day, weekto week.

(01:21:38):
And then it's, I'm glad youmentioned maintenance because
obviously a lot of people aretrying to get to a place, but
then what's after that?
And I know you guys talk onMind Pump all the time about how
much less training is requiredto maintain your muscle mass,
for example, you know, like aslittle as maybe an eighth or
whatever the studies say.
And it's a good metric to seethat this isn't like chasing all
out everything across theboard.

(01:21:59):
Fitness is your number onepriority for the rest to the day
you die.
It's you know, ebbing andflowing, which is a great
message of flexibility andsustainability.

So that's one of my favorite studies that we, I
mean, I found that study whilewe were podcasting.
So I wasn't even aware of that.
Uh and Sal brought it up Idon't know how many years ago.
And I don't, I mean, I didn'tknow it was that little.
It's if you worked out one timeevery two weeks, you could
maintain your muscle.
That is so little.
And what I love about thatstudy is it gave someone like me

(01:22:30):
who probably earlier in myyears, not probably for
certainly in my earlier years,was all or nothing.
I either was on the diet,training hard, or I was off,
letting myself go until I get toa certain point, then I would
be on again.
Versus now where I don't reallyever have an all-off or really
an all-on either.
It's like I have moments orweeks or maybe months where I

(01:22:53):
have very low training volume.
But what I realized, and I'vebeen able to give myself
permission, is like nothingwrong with going to the gym
yesterday and just doing fivesets of squats.
Like just that, lifting thatright there is gonna send a
signal to my body like, hey, westill need muscle in them legs,
don't lose it.
And I may not hit those legsagain for another week or two,
but I'm okay.
Like, I'm not gonna atrophy, goway backwards because and so

(01:23:17):
since now that I have givenmyself that permission that hey,
sometimes my training looksvery minimal because that's all
I want to go there and do, andit's not a focus, but I can do
that and I can be okay.
I'm not gonna be the mostjacked version of me, but I also
will still be able to maintaina lot of muscle and stay pretty
healthy and stay pretty strong,even doing that little.
And so I love uh that study,and I think it's so important

(01:23:39):
that people realize that you'redoing it more than just trying
to look like the shreddedversion of yourself all the
time.
Like, and if you can get inthere and do one or two things,
it is absolutely better thandoing nothing at all.
And I for me, at least for me,and maybe people who are
listening that resonate with theall or all or nothing type of
mentality, moving away from thatwas a game changer for me.

(01:24:01):
And and uh allowing myself thepermission to just go do a
couple exercises every now andthen, or maybe the diet isn't
perfect, but I I'll make acouple better choices than what
I did the day before.
That uh that gave me a lot offreedom, and uh it has allowed
me to stay healthier andmaintain a fitter physique
longer by having that attitude.

(01:24:21):
And so uh hopefully somebodywho's listening who is like me
that resonates with is givingyourself that permission to do
less because it doesn't take alot to maintain the muscle that
you've built in the past.

Yeah, yeah, super important.
I mean, I remember with the oneof my fat loss phases where I
was just wiped and I had so manyother priorities with business
and family.
And I'm like, you know, I don'thave to train four or five days
a week.
Let me try two, let me trythree.
Hey, now I could get extrasleep on those other two days,
and all of a sudden you startfeeling better and training
better.
And so it's kind ofinteresting.
All right, so as we wrap up,man, looking ahead to the

(01:24:53):
future, I'm an optimistic guy.
I get the sense that you are aswell.
Even though we talked about thedangers of AI and all of that
and social media, everythingthat's happening, I know you're
trying to scale your business,you're always doing something.
What really excites you themost right now about where this
industry is heading in thefuture?

Um, so I do think we're moving back to a
connection.
So this is also why we pivotedour business to now we actually
train people, right?
So we were not trainingclients.
Um, what we did was digitalproducts online.
It was far more scalable and wecould reach millions of people
that way.
And so it served us for thefirst decade.

(01:25:31):
But what we all agree and werecognize is that, and I think
COVID really pushed us over thatedge to realize how important
human connection and interactionis to us as a species.
And we've become so digital anddisconnected uh because of
technology for and not todemonize it, but it's because
it's done a lot of great things.

(01:25:52):
I mean, the fact that you and Ican be across the country and
get on a Zoom call like this ora uh uh you know rest stream is
is incredible, right?
So technology is awesome.
But if this was the only way Iever connected to people, which
I think some people do, I thinkthey can be really unhealthy for
you.
And and we we don't get thatoxytocin until you get in the

(01:26:13):
same room as another humanbeing.
And that's a very importanthormone for health for us.
And so I think what the futurelooks like optimistically is the
resurgence of in-person andgetting back to human
connection.
Uh again, that's why we movedto personal training in studio,
having clients come in.
We're gonna hold more liveevents.

(01:26:34):
So it excites me.
I like that.
I like, I mean, what got meinto personal training, why I
loved it so much.
I did not have the vision that,you know, when I was in my 40s,
I'd have the biggest health andfitness podcast in the world,
and I'd sit on a mic and I'dtalk about it, and that's how I
would make my living.
I did not think that at all.
In fact, I got into it becauseI love people.
I have a genuine passion forhelping others, and I'm I

(01:26:56):
curiosity about humans, and Ilike people that have different
ideologies and ways of livingthan I do, and I like connecting
with those people that shattermy paradigm, and I love that.
And so I'm excited that I thinkthat the industry and our
society in general is movingback to human connection and

(01:27:16):
getting back to people.
That's what you'll see in mybusiness, and I think that's
what we're gonna see across theboard.
And so if you're a businessoperator uh in the fitness space
or any business for thatmatter, and there's opportunity
for you to do things that helppeople connect.
I don't know if you recentlysaw one of the one of the viral
apps that's making the news andgoing all over the place right
now is this app.

(01:27:37):
It's like a, you remember, Ithink Wags is the dog app where
you could look for a person towalk your dog for a fee.
You know, there's a humanwalking app that has become
super popular now.
So people are getting onto anapp, looking up people that they
can pay to walk with them as aservice in a business.
I think it's hilarious.

(01:27:57):
I don't have a I don't have adog on the fight if I think it's
bad or good.
But what I think it more andmore importantly, what it
highlights is how thirsty we arefor human connection that an
app like that would go viral andpeople would sign up for it
right away because we want that.
We crave that.
Um we've been deprived of, Ithink, a bit in the last five
years, maybe even eight, 10.

(01:28:17):
And I think that is the future.
I think going moving back tothat, we've gone so digital and
all these great things havecomplimented our businesses, but
I think the future in fitness,the future in this business is
getting back to uh getting infront of people in real life.

Human connection.
Yeah, I wasn't aware of thatapp.
I know there's the apps inJapan that let you like hire a
family member uh you know for afuneral or something like that,
but I hadn't heard of thewalking one.
It's funny, you know, for a guylike you who has this, you
know, big business and like youtalk scaling and you talk about
the maps products all the time,to say that obviously is very
powerful, right?

(01:28:53):
Because people are alwaysthinking as entrepreneurs, okay,
we need to reach as many peopleas we can, but then you lose
that.
So I if you have any liveevents, I would love to come to
one of those.
I'm curious to hear when thewhen you guys start announcing
something like that.
But we want to hook people upwith you and and mind pump and
everything you guys are doing.
So where do you want them toreach you?
Obviously, they're gonnathey're gonna hit up Mind Pump.

(01:29:13):
I'm gonna throw that in theshow notes.
You go to witsandweights.comslash mind pump, get access to
all the maps products, which wejust said uh probably go really
well when you have humanconnection tied to it, which you
know, um, where else do youwant people to reach out to you,
Adam?

Yeah, uh, you know, I tell everybody if it's the
first time you've ever heard me,don't go buy anything from me.
Go consume all the free contentthat we've created on YouTube,
Spotify, iTunes.
Uh, you could literally Googleuh Mind Pump, Mind Pump Media,
and uh everything you seeconnected to that is us and the
stuff and the content that we'vecreated.
We have a website calledmindpumpfree.com, which is a ton

(01:29:49):
of free guides to help peopleuh that you can download for
absolutely free.
Then we have uh we actuallyhave an AI tool called
Askmindpump.com, where it's uhwe built An AI tool probably
four years ago, and it'sincredible.
So if you have literally anyquestion related to health,
fitness, hormones, anything,anything related to your health

(01:30:10):
journey, you can literally go toaskmindpump.com, pose the
question to us, and you'll getan answer from one of us hosts.
And then you'll also get linksto show notes and content that
we've created around thatspecific topic.
So incredible tool.
Go use all the free stuff, uh,enjoy it, and then uh hopefully
uh become a listener.
All right.

We'll throw throw all that at the show notes,
Adam.
And this has been a pleasure.
Uh, I've been following you foryears, and it was great that we
could connect.
And you can come on Wits andWeights and share all of your
wisdom with my audience,listeners.
Reach out to Adam, say hello,check out Mind Pump, and thanks
again, man, for taking the timeto come on the show.

Appreciate it, Bill.
Thank you, bro.

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The RAW TRUTH About Fitness, AI, and Influencers (Adam Schafer of Mind Pump) | Ep 394

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}The RAW TRUTH About Fitness, AI, and Influencers (Adam Schafer of Mind Pump) | Ep 394