Using Data to Break Free from Emotional Eating Patterns | Ep 317 - Wits & Weights | Fat Loss, Nutrition, & Strength Training for Lifters

Episode Transcript
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Philip Pape (00:01):
Emotional eating is a struggle for many of us, even
when you know exactly what todo with your nutrition.
There's an interplay betweenour emotions and habits that
derail even the mostmeticulously planned nutrition
approach.
But today we're going toexplore emotional eating through
the lens of data and structure.
You'll learn how trackingcertain metrics can reveal your

(00:21):
emotional eating patterns, whymeal timing affects your
psychological relationship withfood, and how to use data as a
tool to create those sustainablehabits you want, without
becoming obsessive.
This is all about balancingemotional and logical aspects of
nutrition to transform yourrelationship with food.

(00:50):
Welcome to Wits and Weights, theshow that helps you build a
strong, healthy physique usingevidence, engineering and
efficiency.
I'm your host, philip Pape, andtoday I'm sharing a recent
appearance on the Don't Call MeSkinny podcast with registered
dietitian Sarah Krieger.
Now you might remember herbecause she was recently on the
show discussing emotional eatingfrom a psychological

(01:12):
perspective.
Well, in case you didn't catchthis on her show, today I'm
replaying the flip side of thatconversation, where I joined her
podcast to explore thedata-driven approach to
understanding and managingemotional eating.
Many of you know me as the dataguy.
I love engineering, I loveusing systems and as someone who
naturally gravitates towardstructure and numbers, I've

(01:35):
found that tracking certainmetrics can provide really good,
really invaluable insights intoour eating patterns.
But I've also learned that thisapproach needs to be balanced
with awareness of our emotionaltriggers and our psychological
responses to food, and noteverybody responds the same way
to using numbers, so it has tobe very, very useful.

(01:57):
Now, during this conversation,we talk about how being an
engineer influences my approachto nutrition coaching, how to
interpret hunger cues versusemotional cravings, and then
some strategies and tips tobridge the gap between data and
emotions when it comes to foodchoices.
Now, before we get into theepisode, if you like what you
hear today, all I ask is thatyou hit follow on Wits and

(02:21):
Weights so that you catch everyepisode when they come out.
They come out on Mondays,wednesdays and Fridays, and then
I want you to go follow Sarah'spodcast Don't Call Me Skinny
wherever you listen to this, allright.
So let's jump into myconversation with Sarah Krieger
about approaching emotionaleating through a data lens.

Sarah Krieger (02:39):
Welcome to another podcast of Don't Call Me
Skinny.
I'm super excited to be withyou here today.
We have a really great littlecollaboration that we are doing.
I was a guest on a podcast withPhilip Pate, wits and Weights
and we talked about emotionaleating from the emotional side,

(03:00):
and today he's coming on mypodcast today to talk to you
guys about the emotional eatingthrough data specifically, which
I love because he is such adata guy.
I'm not a data girl.
I mean, I am a little bit, butnot like he is.
So check the link in the shownotes If you want to take a
listen.
My version is on his podcasttoday.

(03:21):
It's going out.
We're doing it the same day soyou can hear both sides at the
same time, and so, yes, philip,thank you so much for joining me
.
I'm so excited to have you onhere with me today.

I am so excited to be on again.
I want to see you again on yourshow, so thanks.

Yes, of course, of course.
What I want to do first is justcan you give my listeners a
little bit about who you are,where you're from and how you
ended up in this and what makesyou like I call kind of you the
data king, like I literallylisten to his podcast because he
has these amazing guests on andit's all just so much about
data, data, data.
So can you go ahead and tell usa little bit about who you are,

(04:00):
where you're from and how yougot here.

Yeah, I suppose the data side comes from being an
engineer.
So I've been an engineer formore than 20 years, a software
engineer, which is even morelike nerdy and data centric, and
so I get very annoyed when Ican't figure out why something
works.
And so my whole life, throughfitness, through nutrition, I
was always a bit fluffy oroverweight or always on diets.
I mean, I'm old enough to havebeen on SlimFast and then Atkins

(04:28):
.
So we're, you know right aboutthat generation in my mid
forties and and I love being inmy forties now, because I've
kind of started to figure it out, you know, just starting to
figure it out and uh, I did allthe things right.
I did, um, crossfit for abouteight years.
Eight years stressed myself todeath doing CrossFit and doing
all the diets.
But, having been an engineer andtrying to figure it out, it

(04:51):
wasn't until things got badenough, let's just put it that
way when I had a kid in my 30s,or my first daughter, and I kept
getting more out of shape, thedad bod.
It starts to hit you in your30s and 40s where you can't make
excuses anymore, or, for thoseof you with a fiery metabolism,
in your twenties.
It's going to.
It's going to slow downeventually if you don't do

(05:12):
something about it, right?
So around the time I was goingto turn 40, I just got fed up
with it.
I'm like, why isn't thisworking?
Why isn't all this CrossFit andthese cleaning jerks and like
cutting carbs and doing keto?
Why is it not working for me?
And I just dove headlong into ordived is the right way to say
it, dived headlong intoevidence-based nutrition and

(05:36):
training and a lot of my earlyinspirations were the Muscle and
Strength Pyramids by Dr EricHelms and I think Andy Morgan
was a coauthor.
A ton of podcasts, ton of videos, and this was a lot of.
This was during the pandemic,so while people during that time
were probably going the otherdirection in many cases with

(05:57):
their fitness, I was starting tofigure it out.
I was putting together my homegym, I started strength training
and about a year later I gotinto nutrition and then, almost
a year after that, I started mypodcast.
I'm giving you the shortversion, but basically took a
lot of learning andexperimentation and a lot of
that was learning how to trackfood and biofeedback and
training and like how I felt tojust see what worked and what

(06:19):
didn't, along with the science,kind of like merging the two
together, because if you're, ifyou fly in blind, or if you
don't have a coach or help, theinformation is just overwhelming
out here in the industry.
Even when you have threedifferent people telling you and
you trust them all, they'recontradictory, right.
So you finally like kind ofstarted to figure it out.
And then, just to make thisstory not longer than it needs

(06:42):
to, be A guest on my podcast whowas a power lifter and she was
a coworker.
She asked me to take over hernutrition coaching, like a few
months later when her coachingwas going to expire.
So to get ready for that, I gotcertified and started working
with free clients and then,through that process, figured
out my systems, which arelargely unchanged.
They're definitely moreefficient and effective, but

(07:04):
they're very data centricsystems, whereas I know you get
a lot into also emotional andpsychology.
That, for me, came much later.
It wasn't my strength, but byworking with clients I became a
lot more of an expert in thoseareas.
So there you go.

No, I like that and it's interesting because,
being an engineer, I mean reallythat's kind of what we do
almost when we create ourprocesses or when we are
coaching a client.
It's really it's very, it isvery structured.
Even though I do a lot of themindset work, the emotional side
of that, that's still kind ofthat's a structured element of

(07:43):
this process, Right.
So I think it's cool how itkind of like you're parallel,
like you said, like I'm anengineer, but like that's kind
of like what we do for wellness,essentially Like we're wellness
engineers.

I don't know that's kind of cool.
Yeah, yeah, I use physiqueengineering, wellness
engineering.
I think engineering comes downto systems, right and and
structure.
You said it great.
I love the word structurebecause that's usually the word
a lot of clients will use.
They're like oh, it wasn'tuntil I had this structured
approach, even if the structureis around emotions, right, like
it doesn't matter.
It's just awareness.

(08:14):
We were talking about this onon my show.
It's having awareness throughsome method, some framework,
some step-by-step process thattakes the stress off of you,
that gives you some clarity,that gives you confidence that I
can control my physique and Ican control even my mental
health, because they're tightlylinked in many cases.
So that's kind of where I comefrom with the show and with

(08:35):
working with people.

Yeah, I love that .
That's what I love.
And speaking of this part ofthis, right, let's take that
piece where we're talking aboutstructure.
Um, I know that we, we can seethings go really the other way.
Uh, I was actually watching.
I don't do you ever follow,like jordan syatt I follow him
okay I love him and he just dida whole mini, uh mini podcast.

(08:58):
He calls it yeah oh yeah, thepot, yep, uh.
And he just did a post today onhis Instagram about how he went
so far the other way with allof this data that he had.
You know, oh, I can be thislean and I can look like this
and I can train like this and Ican do all that stuff with all
of this data.
And how?
From zero to 150?
Because we can use data andit's great to have, but how do

(09:29):
we prevent ourselves from goingso extreme with it?
I have to keep getting progress, I have to keep going.
I have to keep losing weight.
How do we find a balance withusing the data that we get?

Yeah, that's a really great question.
I think it comes down to itdepends we were laughing about
this on my my show that there'sa spectrum of people's like
propensity to do this.
So naturally people will seekyou out as a coach because
you're a certain way Right.
So people listen to my showwill be like I'm so nerd, I love
data.
Give it to me.
Like let's track everything atthe same time, like biohacking

(10:02):
and things like that.
I'm not track everything at thesame time, like biohacking and
things like that.
I'm not.
I'm not very much into that.
Like I don't go overboard withthe HRV tracking with your aura
ring.
I talk about it.
I think it's cool, I think it'sa nice little side thing, but it
does come down to thefundamentals.
I'm like I don't care how muchyou're eating over here, doing
over here, if you're notstrength training, or I don't
care how much you know um, or Idon't know how many calories you

(10:23):
have, until we understand yourprotein right.
Like there's a certain prioritythat we start with to keep it
simple, despite having the data.
So when I tell my clients likewe're going to collect a bunch
of things, but I'm going toreduce the friction as much as
possible for you and, as a coach, that's the way I take stress
off of them and and I'mbasically give them the
emotional support it's like.
Here's a couple things you needto do Track your food, track

(10:45):
your workouts.
A lot of stuff's going to comethrough your watch, but don't
worry about it.
Like, at the end of the day,what happens in the first couple
of weeks and you've seen thistoo, sarah is self-awareness
starts to change their ownbehavior, and then the tracking
doesn't become a chore.
It's actually reframed as thisthing's really helping me out.
As far as the extreme you'retalking about, there's a pocket
of people who really like that,who like understanding oh, how

(11:08):
much muscle am I gaining versusfat and how efficient is it?
And like I've got a client,sarah, who wants to experiment
with all the crazy Lyle McDonalddiets, like the protein
modified fast and the rapid fatloss, and I roll with him
because that's what he wants andhe's cool, he gets it and he

(11:28):
loves data.
Most, most people are not likethat.
Most people, it's like what areyou eating?
How much are you eating?
You got protein, you'retraining, you're growing.
We don't have to overthink it.
So don't overthink it is mypoint.

Yeah, and I think that's where I think a lot of
people get caught up, as you'retalking about, like the Oura
ring and the fitness watches,right?
So here we are.
We're all like.
We are data driven, right.
Oh, I'm going to get an Xamount of steps.
I'm going to get in.
You know, all this stuff, or mysleep, how I'm curious as to.

(11:55):
I mean, you're talking abouthow you, how you help your
clients, like, ok, we don't haveto pay attention to all those
things.
We don't have to pay attentionto all those things.
What would you say, especiallyto those?
We talked a little bit aboutthis on your podcast when you
were interviewing me, which was,like you know, making sure how
many calories we're burning.
Why Can we talk about the datathere, about calories burned and

(12:17):
why that might not reallytranslate into actual burning of
calories?
Like this is something that I'mseeing a lot, where we think
that we have to go exercise towork off the piece of cake, or I
have to go go on the stairmaster for 45 minutes to burn
254 calories Exactly.
I'm not really sure how peopleare getting that, but can you
talk a little bit about howthere's a disconnect here?

Yeah, that's a good one.
Um, where do I start?
So where do I start?
So, first of all, when I workwith folks and I use, there's an
app that I like to use.
It's called Macrofactor.
You don't have to use it, butso far, unless you know
differently, sarah, it's theonly app I've found that isn't
just a food logger, but it alsoestimates your rate of calorie

(13:02):
burn.
Rate of calorie burn.
And when people start using that, they say, well, where does it
take your activity data?
And I'm like it doesn't.
I'm like let's think of yourbody as a system, as a black box
.
Energy comes in, energy goesout and, however, that energy
changes based on weight, on thescale, over time not just the
daily fluctuations, but overtime, based on what you're
putting in your mouth tells usreally well what you're burning.

(13:23):
Then the question is what do wedo?
And what you're getting at ispeople try to burn more calories
and eat less, and they burnmore calories and eat less, and
usually they're eating less inthe wrong way, right, they're
cutting the wrong things, orthey're eating a lot of
processed food, they're starving, they cut even more, they go on
crash diets and then they'redoing all this chronic
metronomic cardio that honestlynobody likes, right, like only a

(13:46):
tiny percentage of peoplereally love doing quote unquote
set, you know, steady statecardio.
So I do love to explore, atleast with my clients and on the
podcast, how we use the data toget insights into how what
we're doing affects our energylevels.
And at the end of the day, Iwant you to feel energized and
perform and be able to hit allthe reps in the gym, be able to

(14:06):
recover, get lots of stimulusfrom your lifts but not feel
like it's wiping you out ormaking you super sore, and it's
like this beautiful balancebetween it's called energy flux
actually is the term people use.
It's like I want to eat moreand move more, but move more in
the right way, by lifting, bywalking, maybe a little bit of

(14:28):
sprinting here and there andsome play.
And when you have that in theright proportions, you're
feeling satisfied andpotentially weight starts to
come off anyway, because you'reserving your body's needs and
you're serving your satietysignals, your hunger signals,
all of that and emotional eating.
It sounds like a side piece toall this, but it's actually
super important, right?
Because it controls you knowwhat you eat, how you eat it,

(14:51):
your patterns and everything.
But people who are tracking andhave this data tend to know
what the heck's going on andthen, if they don't change, the
data continues to tell them that.
So, anyway, I went off on sometangents.
I don't know if you havespecific questions related to
that.

No, I mean, I like that because I feel like we
get really caught up in thenumbers, right, well, I have to
track my data or I have to.
I've used macro factor before.
Um, I love Jeff Nibird and Ilove that and all those guys
like he promotes it hugely.
Uh, and it, it, it wasn't forme.
I chose to stop using it, right, uh, because I would get really

(15:27):
hung up.
The the, not the data wouldactually make me then emotional
and I was like I just reallyneed to focus on what the
protein is, what the fiber isand what my overall calories are
, because it almost was likealmost too much data coming at
me.
Um, personally, right, that'sfor me.
Um, so I'm curious then, leadingout of that, like how do let's,

(15:47):
let's talk about how, when wehave so much like data coming at
us, how then do we know whatdecisions we're supposed to make
?
How are we supposed to knowwhat do I do with this data?
Now, obviously, with that data,your clients have you right,
but a lot of people don't knowwhat they're supposed to do.
Okay, so now I am feeling wipedafter my workouts.

(16:09):
I don't have any energy, I'msleeping like absolute dog crap.
Like what do I do now and howdo?
How do I know where I'msupposed to go from there?

I mean, I do think there's a bit of skill involved
in understanding patterns of thedata and that's why or data, or
data, you know, data on StarTrek always got people for not
calling them data.
Anyway, are we British, are weAmerican?
It doesn't matter.

Well, it's funny because I started out saying
data and now I'm saying data andI don't know.

I do that too.
I do that too.
So, which is plural for datum,which nobody uses, datum.
We always say data as if it'ssingular.
Anyway, that's me being a nerd.
Um, so, yeah, I, here's a goodexample.
If someone like, say, listens tomy show or goes into my
Facebook group and I can tellthey're completely lost, right,
like, total babe in the woods,you know the type, right, like

(16:58):
and this is no insult to anybodyIf you're listening and you're
like, I don't know what to do,but I try to think of an
education process.
Like when you learn a newinstrument, you don't start by
playing Mozart, right, you startby playing a single note.
And so what is their singlenote?
Well, their single note isgoing to depend on what they do
know already, or do not know,what they're willing to do, what
they will, what's accessible,dah, dah, dah, dah dah.

(17:19):
So I, you know, I'll do theselike free calls with people and
get on, and they're like I wantto talk about training, I want
to talk about nutrition, I gotto do this, I got to do this, I
got to do this, like, take abreath.
Take a breath Like what's the,what's the gap of awareness you
have right now.
That would be easiest to solveas low hanging fruit.
So ask yourself that question.
I think food is a good place tostart nutrition, and that

(17:41):
doesn't have to be calories andmacros, like my fitness power
macro factor.
It could just be protein.
How are you eating protein withevery meal, right?
Super simple eating proteinfiber.
Um, if it's your training, areyou training?
Like, honestly, this soundscrazy, but if you're not
training your three days a weekor whatever your you know goal
is, even if it's one and you'renot doing that consistently, I

(18:02):
almost don't even care about howyou're training.
Let's figure out your timemanagement.
Let's figure out the space inyour schedule.
Let's figure out, like, howimportant this is to you, what's
your why?
So long story short, it doesn'thave to be obsessive if you
start small and then just buildinto that and get to the point
of data that makes sense to you.
You know, sarah, though, youhave to be tracking something to

(18:25):
measure it.
Yeah Right, you have to trackit to measure it.

Yeah.
So you have to know and I thinkthat you make a really good
point there Like people are soworried about all the how much
am I supposed to have?
How many?
How many minutes a day should Ibe?
You know, training, how manyminutes a day?

(18:49):
Well, all this stuff.
And you're like can we justmake sure?
And you said like can we justmake sure we're eating protein
at every single meal.
Sometimes I have clients whereI'm like do you know what a
protein is?
Fair point, yeah, you know.
Like, do you know what?
Where there's fiber that's notin Metamucil, like we have to
sometimes, it goes that far backand I say that because it's
okay not to know those things,like so many people that I know
they're like.
Oh, I talk about this all thetime, but peanut butter it's a

(19:10):
protein and I'm like it's not aprotein, guys.
Okay, it's a fat source, andthat's what I hear all the time.
Oh, but I'm eating eggs andsausage for breakfast Awesome,
egg whites or whole eggs andturkey sausage or pork sausage,
because that's going todetermine what we shift, if we
need to shift.

(19:30):
So I think that you make areally good point.
It's like, again, it doesn'thave to be as complicated as
what I think that this industryhas made it to be, yeah, and
like moving on from that, youknow it's.
I think that how do you, howwould you say?
This is leading to anotherquestion, though but how would
you say that?
That the over, theoverconsumption of all that

(19:51):
information, how, how does thattie into?
How do you, how do you kind ofgo for I don't know what I'm
trying to say here the dataversus the emotional, like, how
do you get somebody to move from, like, okay, this is what we
need, this is what the data sayswe need to do?
But they're like I can't, Ican't, I can't get through that,
I can't move past this, or Ican't, I can't eat more food, or

(20:13):
I can't get to the gym, likeyou're talking about, like time
management, like, how do you getsomebody to take that data that
you're receiving from them, butthey have this really big
emotional block.
Are you able to get them tolook logically at this or like
how do you tie in that piece ofit?

Yeah, that's a great question too, because the
I joke with people that I, mybrain goes to logic initially,
but a lot of people's don't, and, like you're, what you're
suggesting is that you have thedata, you've measured the thing,
you've got some awareness andnow it's telling you something
has to.
You've measured the thing,you've got some awareness and
now it's telling you somethinghas to change.
There's the what has to change,there's the how and there's the
how.

(20:50):
For me, Like, what's the thingblocking me?
And I'm definitely big intounderstanding roadblocks,
challenges, anomalies andnormalizing the fact that life
is just naturally chaos in agood way, Like it's naturally
unpredictable, and if you'rekind of that stoic philosophy
that the vast majority of thingsare actually out of your

(21:11):
control, and if you realize thatand just control the things you
can, I think mentally that's aneasier way to tackle life right
, Like the obstacle is the way,so to speak.
So, if a client now I keeptalking about clients, obviously
if you're listening and doingthis for yourself, you have to
go through this reflectiveprocess and be intentional.
But it's like identify the onething this week that was the

(21:32):
obstacle, Because if you wantedto do certain habits and you
didn't, something prevented you.
Don't blame yourself.
Don't say that I just need todo it, Like we joked on my show
just, I don't need to do?
I just need to do it.
No, that's not it, that's notenough.
Okay, otherwise there'd be amillion things I would never do
if it was just up to willpower,trust me.
Yep.
So what is the obstacle?
And then you just have to be adetective and go back to root

(21:54):
cause.
What's the root cause?
And it you know.
Sometimes it's deeper thanothers and sometimes you need a
tool or process like, let'sreduce decision fatigue.
If the issue was your friendkeeps asking you to go out to
dinner or to drinks at night,you have a lot of options.
You could say no, or you canknow that it's going to come and
have your backup plan, yourmeal plan for that type of day,

(22:15):
or you're going to therestaurant strategy or your
whatever your posted note of howmany drinks you're going to
have.
You know, like it's justthinking ahead with your past
self, because we were talkingabout identity on my show.
You talked about how your pastself helped your current self.
Well, everything you do todayto plan ahead is an act of
self-care for your future self.
Meal plan, meal prep,strategizing and if, having, if

(22:38):
then statements or if thenstrategies for these things is
the way, in my opinion, to solveit, because they're going to
happen.
They're going to happen.

Yeah, I do that a lot.
If this happens, then I'm goingto do this, and I think that
the if-then is really powerful,because the if-then can change
if you need it to change.
Right, if my friend asks me togo out, then I can tell them
this.
Or if I say yes, then I can dothis.
But even in the moment it'slike okay, if I have another one

(23:08):
, then what happens?
How do I, what do I do now?
Right?
So I think that that one's soversatile because you can
literally flip it right, rightthen and there like okay, if I
get another drink, then this isgoing to happen.
If I say no to another drink,then this is going to happen.
Or this is how I feel, or thisis what other people might say.
Like, people might havecomments about me not having

(23:28):
another drink or just takingwater.
Um, so I think that if, then issuper powerful.
Do you find that your clientsdo have a really good like
response to that?

technique.
Oh sure, yeah, my clients areperfect and and and they just,
they love me and every you knowum no, I mean, but like honestly
no no, I'm being honest too.

I love that.

I love that I do like on my show I joke about the
coaching industry and myselfand like we're not perfect, you
know, and you should never claimto be.
Yeah, I mean again, everybody'sdifferent.
I tend to generally attract theperson who is more like into
the data and kind of side, but Iwill occasionally have a client
who's like never heard of meand that's it.
That's always interestingbecause I haven't like educated

(24:08):
them through the podcast orthrough the basics yet and have
to take them through that.
Look, I think you mentioned onthe other show you have to have
a conversation, you have tounderstand the person,
understand their emotions.
How can you be there for themnon-judgmentally and take the
emotional stress off?
I think emotional recovery is atype of rest.
It's a type of rest andrecovery.

(24:29):
And if, if a client, if I canbe like look, don't stress,
don't stress.
I mean you can stress, but likeI'm here for you, let's, let's
go through this one step at atime.
Uh, I can think of a clientright now, sarah, who's fairly
new to my program.
She came in through a launchthat I had and so it wasn't
quite like seasoned with mystuff yet and there you can
sense the impatience early on.

(24:49):
There's a lot of impatience oflike I got to lose the fat, I
got to lose the weight Right,and I'm slowly chipping away and
finding her the parts thatresonate with her, after
realizing certain approacheswere not working like the
logical approach didn't work,and then the using data combined
with emotion still didn't work,and I had to kind of slowly
chip away at myself as a coachand learn about her to see what

(25:12):
would help her feel like this isgoing to work for her, you know
.

Yeah, and I think we talked we talked a little
bit about this as well on theother episode, which was
allowing yourself that space tosay, okay, that didn't work.
And I think again, as you justmentioned, we're all perfect,
right, us coaches, we're just,we're amazing, you know right,
even us as coaches have go, oh,that did not work with that
client.
Like, okay, now I know, likethis potential type of person

(25:40):
this might not work with, andstay away from it, like, okay,
nevermind, and we move on fromthat.
And then we're like, but again,we try again.
We keep going after that nextthing Be like, okay, well, let's
try this instead.

So also taking that pressure of like this has to
work or this is your only option, there's lots of options for
lots of people, I think you knowso yeah, I think I think if you
are looking for a coach, lookfor somebody who's like a total,
I'll say, bulldog or whatever,but very persistent, curious,
skeptical, uh, growth mindsetLike I.

(26:13):
I try to convey through the podOne of the reasons I do the
podcast to just like lay it allbare and let people know I take
this stuff personally for myclients and for people even
they're not my clients, you knowthey could just reach out for
you know a Facebook message andI like want to help them.
You know I want to.
I don't want you to sit therefrustrated and stewing and now
the next 10 years you stilldon't have the result you want.

(26:34):
Because there's a way, likethere's always a way, and just
know that that there's a way.
Yeah, I think that's important.

I think it's huge , um.
So I kind of want to talk aboutthis part of it.
We hear a lot of times, youknow again, social media.
I'm going to say this becauseit inundates us with all the
things Meal timing, how can thismeal timing we hear a lot about
it and, oh, you have to eat 30minutes or your protein
synthesis is all this.
It's not good, you're not goingto grow muscles and all these
things.
Right, how does that work?

(27:01):
When it comes, how can mealtiming, or more meal structure,
benefit the emotional side?

of the eating piece .
Oh, that's actually that's agreat question, because it's
it's tremendously helpful,especially when people come from
a world where they think theyhave to eat a certain meal
timing structure, likeintermittent fasting Come on,
folks, you know who I'm talkingto or they have to eat three
meals a day, or six meals a day,or snacks are bad, because
snacks can be a great tool.

(27:27):
So it it does come down to thetracking of awareness of your
hunger signals and youremotional triggers Kind of what
we talked about on my show aswell, where sometimes the
simplest thing is to reduce thatfour hour gap in the afternoon
where you're not eating and justput a snack in there.
It might be Greek yogurt withsome berries, right, where you
try to check off all the boxesof I've got protein.

(27:49):
It tastes good, it takes thehunger away, it fits with my
calories, right, it serves allthe things and it's not a chore.
So, um, when I talk to clientsabout meal timing, I like to ask
about training first.
So if you're strength trainingor you should be strength who's
not strength training listeningto this?

I don't want to talk about that.
There's a lot of people.

I know so well.
That's where I start, becauseif you can fuel your training,
it sets things off well foreverything you're trying to
accomplish with your bodycomposition.
It also sets yourself up forhunger signals elsewhere in the
day, because we know training islinked to cortisol.
How you eat is linked torecovery and cortisol and stress

(28:32):
.
Same thing goes for having likea good protein centric
breakfast.
You know, there's something tobe said for what your grandma
said about breakfast being theimportant meal, most important
meal, because there is evidencethat eating earlier in the day,
again partly linked to cortisol,is going to make you less
hungry later in the day.
Interestingly, even though yourcalories are kind of shifted to
the front, doesn't soundintuitive, but it's true.

(28:53):
Um, but it's different foreverybody, right?
So just tracking your hungerand then saying, okay, is it a
meal timing thing?
Am I eating at seven and thenat four?
Right, and I'm like starving inbetween?
Well, that's an obvioussolution to me when I see that.
Or, or are you eating tinymeals and so you're never
satisfied and you're eating likesix tiny meals?

(29:15):
Are you eating inconsistently?
I think consistency of bothcalories and protein?
And then, um, meal timing isactually telling your body.
Things are safe and predictable, and that actually helps both
with your calorie burn and yourhunger signals.
So yeah, there's a lot morewhere that came from.

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's important.
Again, we touched on this onthe other episode.
I have a client we talked aboutthis client who eats like 700
calories of snacks, but herlunch and dinner are like 250
calories maybe at times.
Right, this would be a casethat I say that the snacks need
to go.
The snacks are happeningbecause we're not eating a
proper meal 250 calories in myopinion, for an 1800 plus

(29:54):
calorie person, that that's whatwe're intaking.
250 calories is nothing.
And so I've advised thisparticular client to increase
those meals and kind of, there'sa couple of snacks that she has
in the cottage cheese and fruit.
I think that's great, likethat's a great snack and that's
a great snack, like you said,between that lunch and dinner,
where it might be four to five,maybe even six hours who knows,

(30:18):
depending on your schedule right, I think that can be really
beneficial.
I've had another client who Iworked with a while ago and she
was very successful on myprogram and she realized that if
she could get in about 600calories at breakfast and it'd
be about 40 plus grams ofprotein, so typically she would
have some Kodiak cakes with someadditional egg whites and some

(30:40):
yogurt and some fruit and thingslike that.
Like she really beefed up herbreakfast.
She was like that was a gamechanger for me for the rest of
the day.
And I think peopleunderestimate the process of try
it, see what happens and justgo from there Like it's all
you're going to do is get moredata and more feedback of this

(31:01):
went well.
This did not go well.

Yeah, I mean, this is where the dichotomy between
having the information andknowing what to do with it is is
a good one, and again, wherecoaching can help.
But even just being educated, um, I can think of clients who, in
a fat loss phase, for example,where things get a little more
tight, right, the tolerances gettight, the numbers get lower,
and all that where the macrocomposition, combined with the

(31:26):
timing, is very sensitive forthat person, where if, like,
exchanging some protein forcarbs could be exactly what she
needs to have all the energythat, the opposite being, she's
constantly feeling like in a lowenergy state, which then leads
to emotional eating, even thoughthe calories are the same.
So, like thinking about thatcomposition and it isn't always
protein, right, if you getenough protein, you've got flex

(31:49):
now to say, okay, protein, fats,carbs, which one goes up and
down and toggles around, and itdoes come down to
experimentation.
So if you, if you're in fatloss, you're starting to lose
fat at a decent rate, you know,at a normal, consistent rate,
and then the hunger starts toramp up, don't think you have to
continue the same eatingpattern throughout the fat loss
phase.
It's always dynamic.

(32:09):
You know not just the calorielevel, but even the timing and
the macro proportions, because,think about it, as the calories
come down, with metabolicadaptation, every the protein
tends to stay the same and thefats and carbs come down.
Well, that starts to hit yourenergy and your hormones.
And if you have more than enoughprotein, I might say, just give

(32:30):
some of that protein to carbsand do it before you work out
and all of a sudden, boom, gamechanger.
I can do another four or five,six weeks in the fat loss phase
and feel roughly the same amountof hunger, and then I don't
have binges.
You know binging episodes.
So it is all tied to emotionaleating from a tool and data
perspective in that way.

Yeah, I was going to ask about about the macro
side, right, cause we weretalking about the meal timing
side, but how does the macrospecifics play into?
And I think that's.
I just recently did a wholepodcast on calorie calculators
with, like the rate, and we haveall these formulas and all
these calculations and these arewonderful and they're amazing,
but like they're not the Holygrail, like you have to also

(33:08):
intuitively be able to go theseare not my numbers or this is
what's happening, and I need toflux this a little bit or raise
this, lower that.
Um, I think that that's a hugepiece to this that a lot of
people again, coaching is.
This is why coaching isbeneficial and, uh, because you
already don't know what to dowhen you're already inundated
with with information overloadand you don't, like I know I'm

(33:31):
supposed to eat better or moreprotein.
How.

Yeah, I agree, I agree.
And also when you're, whenyou're in fat loss, like and I
know you probably do this aswell you don't just jump right
in Like you've got to geteverything stable and dialed in
and know a little bit about thecalories and macros and then
understand that macros canaffect calories, can affect your
metabolism and can affect likeit's a big vicious cycle or
maybe a virtuous cycle.

(33:55):
I'll give you an example right,we know protein burns a lot
more calories when you digest itthan carbs, and carbs burn more
than fat.
So if you're, if you doubleyour protein, if you just do
this in a spreadsheet, you'llsee.
But like the same 500 calorieswith much more protein, you're
going to burn more of thosecalories, meaning your, your
actual metabolism is slightlybumped up, even though the

(34:16):
calorie intake's the same.
And now you can be in the samedeficit and eat more, or you can
be in a bigger deficit and eatthe same, which is a game
changer.
Now if you again, if you havetoo much protein, now you're
eating into fats and carbs, thatcould be a problem.
So when you talked about macros,sarah, I think of minimums.
I like minimums.
So a protein minimum and thenfats and carbs also should have

(34:37):
a minimum for, but you need tofigure that out.
And then now, anything abovethat has a lot of flexibility,
and you're good to go.
And then the cal.
Here's the thing, though.
If you are barely hitting yourminimums, whatever calorie level
that is, you probably don'tever want to go below it, even
if you quote, unquote need to tolose weight faster.
No, you're going to bemiserable forever.
You just won't do it.

(34:58):
You're better off eating alittle more yeah.

Yeah, you won't be.
It won't be sustainable, right,you're not going to be able to
stick to it.
You're going to end up eatingyour arm off.
And then you're like, oh, I didit again.
I fell back into the samepattern.
And here we are again on thesame cycle that we've been on
for 25 years, and that's thepatience piece.

It's like it's not going to happen as fast as you
think.
Just assume it won't and that'sokay.
Weight, in my opinion, don'teven have a target.
I mean, clients will come to mewith the target weight and I
slowly chip away.
You know, at the mindset of allwe can control is how much we
eat and the calories and themacros we eat and what we do.
Our body's going to do, whatit's going to do.
We can optimize as much aspossible, but given that, now

(35:37):
tell me how long it's going totake to get to a certain weight,
that's you can't control thatpart.
You can't.
You can only control whatyou're doing here now in the
process.
So it's empowering and it'sliberating when you realize that
.

Yeah, it is, um.
So one of the last questionsthat I have for you, before we
start wrapping it up, is I'mreally curious about, um, the
our hunger cues, right, I?
This is one of the first things.
Again, if somebody comes to meand they're like, oh, I never
eat breakfast, I'm never hungry,that's not normal.
So we need to change that.
Like, never being hungry is notnormal, guys, ladies, gentlemen

(36:10):
who listen, which is not anormal thing.
So I'm curious how do wedetermine hunger cues, fullness
cues Like how do I know when tostop eating, how do I know when
I'm actually supposed to behungry?
Or what that feels like.
And it's relationship toemotional eating, like what does
the scientific research say?
Versus like how does that playa role in being emotional person

(36:32):
?

human being.
That's a big question, sarah.
That's a loaded one because thethe simple.
I guess the simple answer isyou.
You will have to figure out thedifference between
psychological and real hunger,um, through some level of
tracking or awareness.
I mean again going back to thatum, I have like a journal or
it's not, yeah, I guess it's adiary with a scale in it that

(36:53):
says, like here's your hungerscale.
It's based on some of thevalidated hunger scales.
Sometimes they have thedifferent happy face down to the
grumpy face.
Yeah, love that, love that, andit's like okay when you're
hungry.
You go to this scale and you seewhat the threshold is Like.
Be honest with yourself, and ifit's below the threshold then
it's potentially psychologicalhunger.
And there's some like littletricks like go get a glass of

(37:16):
water right or take a pause Iknow we talked about that on my
show as well Just to kind ofresolve whether it's physical or
not.
The problem is, people areeating in such a shitty way for
so many years that the hormonalmilieu, as they call it, are
like so screwed up between theirthyroid and their cortisol and
their gut hormones, semaglutideall of that's involved, like the
stuff you hear in the weightloss drugs.

(37:37):
You've got those and it's allinvolved to just make it go
haywire.
Honestly, I would go back tolifting weights as like the
thing I would shoot to the topof the list for people, as if
you wanted to pick one activitythat would, quote unquote, solve
a lot of issues, probablymagically, in pretty short order
.
It'd be lifting weights,including peri post-menopause

(37:59):
women who are worried abouthormones and everything else
lifting weights.
And if you can do that for awhile and then see what's left
and then start dealing with it,cause it affects your hunger
signals as well, I'm not doingtoo much.
Cardio affects your hunger,right.
So I would like put thebehaviors in place that you know
make hunger worse Like sleepdeprivation makes hunger way
worse and address those.

(38:20):
If you're not doing those, comeon like that's what we got to
do.
Do those things and thenwhatever's left you can
potentially address.
That's a little bit differentthan starting from emotions,
which could be necessary forcertain people as well.
It's just my.
It's my approach with most ofmy clients.

Okay, no, I mean and I think that's the thing is
like it really truly is acomplex situation.
No-transcript was, say, doing aleg day versus an upper body

(39:10):
day, versus.
Because I was like man, legdays, you're moving so much more
, should be moving so much moreweight.
That was like I feel like I am,I can't get full in it and I'm
eating the same things that I do.
You know, I'm a prettyconsistent like.
I like, I like my stuff.
I keep it simple.
So I was like I'm eating thesame things and I don't know
what's happening until Irealized, like I'm looking at my

(39:31):
data in my logger for all my,all my lifts and I'm like, oh,
this man, that's a lot moreweight than I lifted yesterday,
or, man that's, I'm lifting waymore weight than I'm lifting on
leg day, than I am lifting on,uh, you know, a press day or a
pole day, even depending on if Ihave deadlifts right.
Or even noticing on those kindsof days where I'm doing more of

(39:52):
my core lifts that it's like,wow, this, I'm significantly
more hungry.
So it's like we're afraid tolearn about what our body is
trying to tell us.
It's constantly talking to usand we're like shut up, just
shut up.
It's true, it's true.
I think we're so afraid tolisten to it.

Yeah, and there's interesting situations like
gaining weight to build muscle,where I have a client who's like
gaining, gaining, gaining, andthey're like why am I hungry now
?
I, where you know, I have aclient who's like gaining,
gaining, gaining, and they'relike why am I hungry now?
I'm up at 3,500 calories, whyam I hungry?
That's actually your bodytelling you something legitimate
.
Still, it's because you'reabout to hit a hard gaining
plateau.
I've seen it over and over againand if you don't jack up those
calories, my man, you are goingto stop right now and you need

(40:31):
to eat maybe another 300calories, right.
So it is your body telling youwhat to do and your example of
training.
It's interesting becausethere's a lot of talk about
calorie cycling, carb cycling,stuff like that, and people want
to overthink this stuff beforethey got the basics down.
Generally, for most people, Ifound, if you like eat before
your workouts, if you eatconsistently, if you get enough

(40:53):
calories, the hunger signalsgenerally work out for
themselves to where you don'thave to do all this optimization
, manipulation.
The caveat is then, once you'vedone that, your body, your
unique body, may have patternsof hunger that you want to
listen to beyond, within that,and so I'll see this in client
data, where they're alwayseating more on these two days of
the week it might not even bethe weekend and I'm like what's

(41:15):
going on here?
And they're like, I don't know,I'm just hungrier or especially
women with their cycle, somewomen are a lot more sensitive.
I've learned that, something Ididn't know before I got into
coaching the, the there's fourphases, not just two, and like
how they, how they all interactwith.

Yeah, it's called crazy and non-crazy, right.

Yeah, Somebody said the different, the different
people she are.
She is during the month, butyeah, even with that, and then
what you got to do is say don'tfight it.
Like lean into it and say, okay, I'm going to plan ahead so
that those days are the onesthat have more food and that
generally solves the problem.
Like, stop fighting it Ifyou're eating mostly whole,
nutritious foods.
Um, yeah, those are my thoughtson that.

Yeah, I think you know, kind of back to the, the
hunger cues, kind of like we'velike I don't know.
I also I'm 41.
So I grew up in this.
You know, slim fast.
I remember seventh grade I toldmy mom my volleyball coach told
me I needed a slim fast beforepractice.
No, no, no, that was just metrying to lose weight, like for
real.
That's what I did, so, butanyway.
So I feel like that we havespent so much time again not

(42:16):
listening, suppressing you'renot hungry, you don't need to
eat.
You just ate 27 minutes ago.
What's wrong with you?
Or you already had breakfast,you don't need anything else.
And that's something I, youknow my kids drive a lot of, why
I do what I do right now, andit's something I'm trying to
teach them like we need tolisten to what it what our
bodies are telling us.

(42:37):
They're constantly talking andwe have spent so much time
suppressing our hunger cues no,you're not hungry, or then we
don't listen.
It's like, well, I was fullabout four donuts ago, but I'm
just going to keep going, so thedonuts aren't a problem
tomorrow.

Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
No, go go.
No, it's a little bit like no.
And also, if you think of ourevolution, like we are wired to
seek out energy, like we'rewired for it to survive, and but
the environment has changedmassively, right?
So we are now wired to getobese.
We are we're wired to get obesein this environment.
So the whole nutritious, wholefoods, nutrient density thing is

(43:15):
not anything to be takenlightly.
It is extremely important tolook at the industry ultra
processed foods, everythinghappening with weight loss,
drugs not not to judge any ofthat, but to look at your own
choices and say look, how do Iget the flexible approach?
Because and we're at why I saythat, sarah, and you know this
just as well I, I use yourhunger signals are highly
manipulated in the wrongdirection When're eating food

(43:38):
that's effectively beendiscombobulated into its
ingredients.
A bunch of ingredients thatnever exist in nature are put
together and they'repre-digested for you, just to
make it gross for people.
Not that I don't love my Oreoslike you do, and we can have
them.
We can have it.
In fact, when you're gainingmuscle, you could include more
of those in.
But yeah, it's just not goingto make you full, because it

(44:01):
shouldn't.
It's already been digested.
It's bypassing a bunch of yourgut.
You know, your gut goes frommouth to your ass, right, and
there's steps, and you'reskipping a whole bunch of steps
and those steps involve hormonesand saliva that keep you full.
So you're skipping it all,right.
No wonder we have a problemwith obesity and all that.

So yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
You're talking about how thingsare kind of put together,
already processed for you.
Again, I love jordan.
Jordan did a thing about how,like, even the way they stack a
snickers bar together likecreate like specific things and
triggers that happen in thebrain that make you want more of
the thing, because you have thenugget, then you you have the

(44:39):
peanuts, which is salty, thechocolatey, the caramel.

I can taste it right now.
Yeah, right.

So it's like it's wild, but it's a real thing
that I think again, peoplearen't, they're just awareness,
awareness, awareness, awareness.
So I appreciate all your time.

Is there anything else that, like, we didn't touch
on that.
You're like, man, I really wantthese people to hear this.
I got to say this and collect alittle bit of data.
Don't obsess about it.
Just if you're not sure, askSarah, ask me, and we'll give
you a tip on like maybe what'sthe best thing for you to look
at right now and that'll justmassively change the game for
you versus the other 95% ofpeople who are just wandering
through life without a clue.
Without a clue.

And there are so many.
Don't be one of them, don't beone, don't be one, don't be the
one, without a clue.
So thank you so much forjoining me today.
I really appreciate it.
You guys, make sure you gocheck out Phillip's podcast
Again.
I call him the data king dataking, whatever you want to call
him and he's got some incredible, incredible guests on so many

(45:54):
people in this industry that arejust so fucking knowledgeable.
So I again thank you so muchfor coming on here.
I really appreciate you guysand I'll catch you on the next
episode.

All right, and that was my conversation with Sarah
Krieger about using data tounderstand emotional eating
patterns, and what I love aboutthese collaborations is they
highlight how there's never justone approach to solving
nutrition challenges.
It's highly individualized, andwhile I naturally gravitate
toward data tracking systems,sarah brings some other aspects

(46:23):
about the psychology behind arelationship with food, and I
think the most powerful approachhonestly just combines the best
of both perspectives using datato identify patterns while
developing the emotionalintelligence to understand what
drives those patternsintelligence to understand what
drives those patterns.
As we discuss, something assimple as tracking your hunger

(46:44):
levels or meal timing can revealsome surprises, possibly about
when and why emotional eatingoccurs, and unless you have that
, you just don't know.
These data points they're notjust numbers, by the way.
They're sort of windows intothe soul, into our behaviors,
that can help us createmeaningful and sustainable
changes.
That's what we're going for.
So, whether you personally arenaturally more analytical like

(47:06):
me or more intuitive about yournutrition, if you combine these,
you're going to get a let'scall it a complete toolkit to
manage emotional eating.
So I would say, be open to both.
Be open to both because theycan help you along the way.
All right if you found value intoday's episode.
All I ask is that you hitfollow on Wits and Weights right
now to catch every episode whenthey come out Again Mondays,

(47:27):
wednesdays, fridays and then gofollow Sarah's podcast Don't
Call Me Skinny in your podcastapp because I believe she has
some insights about nutritionand body image and other things
that are really valuable to hear.
Until next time, keep usingyour wits lifting those weights
and remember that data andemotions are not opposite forces

(47:48):
.
They are complementary tools inbuilding a sustainable approach
to nutrition.
I'll talk to you next time hereon the Wits and Weights podcast
.

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Using Data to Break Free from Emotional Eating Patterns | Ep 317

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Using Data to Break Free from Emotional Eating Patterns | Ep 317