#10. Teaching with Authority

In this episode, author and teacher Jeanie Shaw joins the podcast to break down 1 Timothy 2 and help us understand how to interpret "teaching with authority," whether the problem is that teachers are women or that what they're teaching is inappropriate.

Grab your copy of "The View From Paul's Window: Paul's Teachings on Women" by Jeanie Shaw.

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Episode Transcript

Travis Albritton (00:01):
Welcome back to the women in the church
podcast where we take a freshlook at what the Bible teaches
about women in church for theICOC in Corina Jeannie, we've
made it to the episode thatpeople actually care about. Oh,
yeah. So chances are, when youstarted turning into this
podcast, you were, I don't knowif you know, hanging on pins and

(00:22):
needles is adequate to describethe anticipation and the
excitement about First Timothyto a passage everyone loves, you
know, writes in cursive lettersand puts on wall art in their
homes, right alongside Jeremiah2911. Put up First Timothy two
baby. But this is this hasbecome the passage synonymous

(00:44):
with the question of women'sroles in the church, that
whenever someone brings forththe question about women's
roles, what that should looklike what the Bible teaches,
this is one of the firstpassages that we go to, and for
obvious reasons, because itseems to be directly addressing
that question. Now, if you havejumped straight to this episode,

(01:05):
I would encourage you, after youlisten to it, because you're a
human being with agency, and youcan make your own choices, to go
back and listen to the episodesbefore this. Because when you do
this episode, and the things wetalked about, will make a lot
more sense, because we've beenbuilding to this point, to have
the toolkit necessary to do athorough job understanding what

(01:27):
First Timothy two is talkingabout. So Jeannie Corina, you
ready to jump in headfirst andsee what kind of damage we could
do?

Jeanie Shaw (01:35):
Let's go. Let's do it.

Travis Albritton (01:38):
Alright, Corina, why don't you go ahead
and read the passage for us. Solet's read verse eight through
15. And hey, maybe this will bea really short episode. You
know, for the first time inhuman history, this will just
make sense right off the bat.
And we can just read it as is,and pack up and go home. Fingers
crossed. Corina, why don't youdo a lovely reading for us?

Corina Espejo (01:59):
Sure. First Timothy two starting in verse
eight says, Therefore I want themen everywhere to pray, lifting
up holy hands without anger ordisputing. I also want the women
to dress modestly with decencyand propriety adorning
themselves not with elaboratehairstyles, or gold pearls, or
expensive clothes, but with gooddeeds appropriate for women who

(02:21):
profess to worship God, a womanshould learn and quietness and
full submission. I do not permita woman to teach or to assume
authority over a man, she mustbe quiet. For Adam was formed
first than Eve. And Adam was notthe one deceived. It was the
woman who was deceived andbecame a center. But women will
be saved through childbearing.
If they continue in faith, loveand holiness with propriety.

Travis Albritton (02:44):
Yeah, so I don't think we can get away with
just reading this and thencalling it a day. There's,
there's all kinds of weird stuffin here. That to our modern
Western ears is like, Paul, whatare you getting that? What? What
is childbearing have to do withsalvation? What is this
obsession with holding yourhands in the air at all times in
in every place? What do you haveagainst braids? Are you like not

(03:08):
a frozen fan? Is like a thing.
So I guess we have some morework to do, Jeannie?

Jeanie Shaw (03:13):
I guess so I guess.
So. It's not that simple. Butit's not that difficult. Well, I
take that back.

Travis Albritton (03:21):
Well, let's let's just start with this
question. Jeanie. Why has thispassage caused so much
controversy? Not only in ourchurch fellowship, but in
churches for centuries?

Jeanie Shaw (03:31):
Well, part of it is we've talked about we're
speaking to a situation we don'tfully know the situation, it's a
different culture, a differenttime. It's a letter to a
specific situation. But I think,you know, these verses, they're
difficult to understand, right?
And they do several things forus. And I think we have to think
about what they do for us, theycan humble us, causing us to

(03:54):
realize how much we really don'tknow, and respect each other's
thoughts and views. Or on theother hand, they can cause us to
become dogmatic and dividedthinking, you know, it says it
here, this is what it is. Thisis so what's your problem kind
of thing. Even in your resourcessection, there are two short

(04:14):
videos of two of today's mostwidely respected scholars in tea
right, and Timothy Keller, andin those short little videos,
they espouse completely opposingviews. And that's just very
common in the scholarly worldtoday. There are different views
on what this means. And myprayer, honestly, is that all

(04:38):
these discussions can justreally proceed with love for
each other. And that that's whatwe'll we'll focus on more than
anything. But you know, I havespent of late honestly countless
hours this year, digging intorestoration history. I'm

(04:58):
actually writing my dissertationon the relationship between
interpretation and spiritualformation. And I'm beginning
with the effect of pattern ism,or this blueprint theology,
we've talked a little about theeffect it has on spiritual
formation. But this is reallythe prevailing hermeneutic used
by the restoration movement. Andwhile many would feel like, oh,

(05:22):
no, we don't use that today,there's still a lot of, there's
still a lot of viewing scripturethrough the microscope, and in a
scientific way alone that wethat we use, it's still active
today. Because I do think whenwe look for a pattern, which
this is how so many have lookedat this verse, okay, what is the

(05:45):
pattern here? That's for ustoday? Still, because it says it
here, when we look for thepattern, which honestly looking
for a pattern can be helpful, orit can not be helpful. But when
we fail to see the biggertheological picture of the
redemption of God, throughJesus, we'll focus, I think, a
lot more on getting the pattern,right. Just like I talked about

(06:10):
last week, the way I scrutinizedthe classified ads when I was
proofreading, you know, I gottaget this right. And it's so
easy. We do want to get itright, right. It's the Bible, we
want to be careful with what Godhas done. And even while our
restoration fathers originallysought unity, and wanted to

(06:33):
unite over the things that wereclearly in the Bible, this
method of interpretation alwaysled to division. Because there's
so many middle steps ofinferences that we all employ,
in our interpretation. You weand as I mentioned, I think in

(06:53):
talking about Romans 16, we, weview them differently through
the lenses that we have ourpresuppositions, and we really
can't get away from that webring into the scriptures, these
things we bring in ourselves ourown interpretation. You do I do,
we all do. And so that's whyit's it's really difficult. And

(07:14):
because people have so manydifferent lens and use different
methods of interpretation onthings that aren't clear, I
believe that's why there's beenso much controversy on these
scriptures.

Corina Espejo (07:28):
So the stone Campbell movement and those who
are like, what is therestoration movement, so we're
talking late 1700s, to the1800s, right, stone Campbell
movement. So if you're wantingto look that up, that's what
Jamie's referring to. Let's talka little bit more about what we
do know and just the culturalbackground of Ephesus.

Jeanie Shaw (07:47):
Well, Paul wrote the letter to Timothy here who
was an Ephesus between at 62 and66. And we know just from what
we read, as we start reading andTimothy that in Ephesus, they
were dealing with myths theywere dealing with genealogies,
speculative intellectualism,controversies, all kinds of high

(08:10):
sounding nonsense, and you canlook back at chapter one, verse
four, and verses six and sevenand chapter six and verse 20.
For those, they were dealingwith asceticism, laying down
special laws, like food lawsforbidding marriage, listing
many things is impure. That's inchapter four, failing to provide

(08:30):
for one's family and chapterfive greed gathering money from
false teaching. Six, verse five,denying the resurrection
quarreling men taking advantageof weak willed women Gnosticism
these were some of the justreally wonderfully wonderful
things going on. And Ephesus,there were a lot of things going
on. This is also in the culture,where the likelihood we've

(08:54):
talked about some of the newroman woman. If scholars are
right about this phenomenon,this would have been a factor in
the modesty instructions. Youanother factor about Ephesus,
the church Paul is referring toin his letter to Timothy is the
dominance of the goddessArtemis. And I want to say

(09:16):
something about that because Ithink we can brush over that
pretty quickly and not think oh,you know, big deal. But we can
note the influence this cultfollowing had in Acts chapter
19. And, you know, the letter toTimothy was penned probably
about a decade before Luke wroteacts. So this cult worship is

(09:36):
still probably quite a thing. Iwant to read something from Acts
19 some verses from therebecause just try, maybe even
close your eyes as I read this,try to picture what is going on
here, right? When I read theBible, sometimes I try to
picture like a movie. You knowwhat is happening here what's
going on? In Acts 19, beginningin verse 19. A number who'd

(10:00):
practice sorcery brought theirscrolls together and burn them
publicly. When they calculatedthe value of the scrolls, the
total had come to 50,000drachmas. Now, here's something
going on. You know in Ephesus asan aside, a drachma was a day's
wage, and in today's monetaryvalue, this would have been
worth about $4 million. That'sthe value of the scrolls on

(10:21):
sorcery. I mean, so there's,there's some stuff going on. But
then, in verse 20, in this way,the word of the Lord spread
widely and grew in power. Afterall this had happened, Paul
decided to go to Jerusalempassing through Macedonia and
Acadia, after I've been there,he said, I must visit Rome also,
he said two of his helpersTimothy and harassed us to
Macedonia while he stayed in theprovince of Asia a little

(10:44):
longer. About that time, therearose a great disturbance about
the way a silversmith namedDemetrius, who made silver
shrines of Artemis brought in alot of business for the
craftsmen there. He called themtogether along with the workers
and related trades and said, youknow, my friends that we receive
a good income from thisbusiness. And you see in here

(11:04):
how this fella Paul hasconvinced and led astray large
numbers of people here inEphesus, and in practically the
whole province of Asia. He saysthat God's made by human hands
are no Gods at all. There'sdanger that not only our trade
will lose his good name, butalso that the temple of the
great goddess Artemis will bediscredited, and the goddess

(11:25):
herself who is worshippedthroughout the province of Asia,
and the world will be robbed ofher divine majesty. When they
heard this, they were furiousand began shouting great as
Artemis of the Ephesians. Andsoon the whole city was in an
uproar. The people sees Gaiusand Aristarchus Paul's
travelling companions fromMacedonia and all of them rushed

(11:48):
into the theater together. Paulwanted to appear before the
crowd but the disciples wouldn'tlet him even some of the
officials of the provincefriends of Paul cinema message
begging him not to venture intothe theater. The assembly was in
confusion, some were shoutingone thing some another. Most of
the people didn't even know whythey were there. The Jews in the
crowd pushed Alexandria to thefront, they shouted to him, he

(12:10):
mentioned he motioned forsilence in order to make a
defense before the people. Butwhen they realized he was a Jew,
they all shouted in unison forabout two hours. Great is
Artemis of the Ephesians thecity clerk quieted the crowd and
said fellow Ephesians doesn'tall the world know that the city
of Ephesus is the guardian ofthe temple of the great Artemis

(12:33):
and of her image which fell fromheaven.
Now, I don't know about you, butwhen I read that thing, ah, you
know that temple worship ofArtemis, it definitely had some
influence and the church there.
And you know, Artemis she wasthe goddess of fertility and
worshipers, even young girls asthey worshipped her they were
known as a door nurse. Artemiswas a man hater, and the cult

(12:57):
following taught theinsignificance of men and even
denied that they were createdfirst. And you in this passage
of Scripture, not in Acts 19.
But in First Timothy two, thereare several contested points.
Now the point about modesty isnot so much contested, because

(13:19):
most scholars agree that isspeaking of non ostentatious
modesty. You're not how lowsomething is tight something is
but not showing off wealth. Nowshould modesty of dress for
sexual purity be taught? Yeah, Ithink so. But not from the
Scripture, probably for manyother scriptures. But the

(13:39):
context of this instructionabout modesty is more about
wealth and ostentatiousbehavior. And however, the most
conservative and pattern mysticinterpretations would forbid
women to wear gold, pearls,expensive clothes are up dues.
You know, just reading it as theBible says it right there.

Corina Espejo (14:03):
What do you think are some of the most confusing
or even just contested parts ofthis particular passage?

Jeanie Shaw (14:10):
Well, I think the thought of what does it mean to
teach and assume authority? Arethey two words? So they mean the
same thing? Now most peoplethink teaching has some
authority. But what does thatmean? That was? What does it
mean to assume authority?
Because many contests thatteaching assumes authority. So

(14:33):
that's why women shouldn't teachwhere they're men, then the
meaning of authority comes inoften to the word for that. And
then Paul's use of creationorder. I think those are some
really confusing things thatcome in and contested things.
Why are those there? Becausehonestly, when you first read

(14:56):
it, I mean, it's like what Wait,what is going on here? You know,
because honestly, the literalblueprint reading would state
that women can't teach in anyauthoritative way. They would
also teach they can't wear goldor pearls or have any kind of
elaborate hairdos, these kindsof things. But you what does

(15:17):
this mean that women, aboutwomen and teaching is teaching
the authority of Scripture is atone's own authority? We can
speculate and differ on whatthis means. We can ask. Okay, so
should a woman must a womancarefully speak so as to only
share, as I'm sharing in thefirst person? Well, for me, this
means versus, you know, theBible teaches here, can a woman

(15:39):
teach like that? You personally,I had both been taught and
taught for years, the importanceof speaking as a woman in the
first person. And just before Ireally studied this out, and my
views have, have shifted sincethen. And, you know, again, even

(16:00):
in our churches, when speakingin a mixed group, we've
practiced for many years inmarriage and parenting retreats.
And we've kind of even made somejokes about this, the women will
say, Okay, I'm just talking tothe women here. And the men have
even make jokes about Okay,guys, close your ears, make sure
you didn't learn anything. Andyou know, is that really what

(16:23):
Paul's talking about here? And Ithink men generally I have no
idea how difficult this is forwomen. And I think that's why so
many women have just preferredto speak to women, for fear,
she's going to be critiqued orstep over the line of assuming
authority based on how she sayssomething because passion can

(16:45):
often be acquainted withauthority. And grammatically
teaching and assuming authority.
Either one can be correct as onephrase one word or both teaching
and have authority as twodistinct thoughts or one.
Grammatically, we don't know,the word for authority is one

(17:06):
that's also been discussed alot, often to so the word
authen, Teo or, you know,various forms of it, the word
for authority, it's actuallyonly used once in the Scripture
right here in First Timothy. Andin the Greek language, this it's
a verb, it has many meanings.
And one thing, just to rememberis that, you know, dictionaries

(17:27):
and lexicons weren't createdbefore the words were used. The
people who put these togetherhad to figure out from the
meanings what did this mean, andwhen they're used so seldom. And
in this case, once, it's verydifficult to know exactly what
was being met. But the use ofthe words in their context, you
know, that's what gives meaningto them. And so then we also

(17:48):
when words are so scarcely used,we need to look for words that
are close in meaning withsimilar roots. And there's a few
of those oftentimes, I don'tknow how to pronounce them all.
But when we're trying tounderstand the meaning of
authenticity to it, the harshestof definitions, the word was

(18:10):
even used for murder. Well, Ithink we can assume pretty
assuredly, that women aren'tsupposed to murder men in the
assembly or anywhere else, Ifeel really confident about
that. But related words, areused for absolute control, to
seize absolute power. There's awell respected scholar Ben

(18:33):
Witherington, who's done a goodbit of work on this and he sheds
a good deal of light on thisword. One of the things he
mentioned, it's wasn't untilafter the letter to Timothy was
written when the word had beginto have more of, or less of a
negative meaning than simplyauthority over can we know for
sure whether it does mean aforceful, domineering,

(18:56):
especially concerning thecontext of false teaching, or an
authority from creation order.
We can't know for sure, thus thevaried views. But the problems
in the context lead me towardunderstanding this word, being
used for seizing control in thecontext of the false teaching

(19:18):
that Paul's addressing. However,if it was truly simple, it
wouldn't be so controversial,right? And for me, I know I
carried many suppositions intowhat I had fought you there are
also some differing opinionsamong scholars about the wording
of I do not permit were somelanguage experts believe it is

(19:40):
more accurate to interpret thatphrase to say I do not now
permit thus likely referring toa particular situation so
context what is being met is socrucial. word meanings are
crucial, but there are sometimes because we don't use the
that word in that context,because we don't live there and

(20:01):
speak at that time, we don'tfully know. I'm just trying to
go my best understanding fromthe things I've studied, and
from the context of the actualscripture that I'm reading. But
I think at the heart of thequestions are several things.
You was the teaching done bywomen, the false teaching? Was

(20:23):
it the issue Paul was addressingso that this was a specific
situation? And is not atranscending principle. But then
does the reference to creationorder, make it transcending?
Hmm, those are some of thequestions that I think have to
be really studied and looked at.

Travis Albritton (20:40):
Yeah, yeah.
And even just thinking about thebroader themes of First Timothy,
it seems like the biggest thingPaul is trying to communicate to
Timothy is how to fight againstfalse doctrine. Absolutely. And
those would be those, thosesalvation bucket issues that we
talked about, like denying thedeity of Christ and, and the
atoning sacrifice for sins andthose kinds of things. Okay. And

(21:00):
instead pursuing either Gnosticideals, or pagan, ritualistic
ideas, worshipping Artemis, thatkind of stuff. And even in
chapter one, Paul talks abouttwo brothers in the church in
Ephesus, these already kickedout for false teaching, right?
Yeah. So it's not anunderstatement to say. This is
probably in addition to Artemis,the biggest thing that Timothy

(21:22):
is trying to wrestle with is,what do I do with all this false
teaching, especially as a youngleader in a larger church?

Jeanie Shaw (21:31):
Absolutely. And we'll look at that more with the
context of it. Because honestly,Timothy opens with false
teaching closes with falseteaching instructions, fighting
against it. So I think that'sgoing to be important thing to
really look at.

Travis Albritton (21:44):
So we've already kind of covered verse
nine and 10, talking aboutposture and not being
ostentatious, which is a commontheme from First Corinthians. So
we're lucky there that we havesome familiarity with those
themes in those topics. Whatabout verse 11? This idea of
well, one is just veryinteresting that Paul says A
woman should learn. Yes. Sothat's something that stands

(22:06):
out, right? Because that wouldnot necessarily be intuitive
reading into a patriarchalculture.

Jeanie Shaw (22:11):
Yes. Especially if they're like we'll talk about
when he's getting ready to talkabout deception. Because when
you aren't educated, it's veryeasy to be deceived.

Travis Albritton (22:22):
Yeah. So that's interesting. But then he
talks about how a woman shouldlearn in quietness and full
submission and that word, again,as a lot of modern cultural
context, which is not alwayspositive. So walk us through,
what is Paul communicating tothe women in the church in
Ephesus, in his instruction toTimothy, what, what does this

(22:43):
mean for them? And then what arethe things that it means for us?

Jeanie Shaw (22:46):
Well, I think attitude is what this word
quietness means it's differentthan the word for quiet. And
First Corinthians 14. And wetalked about last time, this is
more of a, an attitude, ofhumility. And to me this, I
think, this is what is beingaddressed more, a woman should
learn with an attitude ofhumility and full submission.

(23:09):
And this wasn't obviouslyhappening here with what
something that they were doing,I think men should learn in
quietness and full submission aswell. Because it's an attitude
about learning. It's an attitudeof humility, honestly. And so
yes, I think, as you said, wecontend to think that, oh, woman

(23:30):
should learn in full submission.
Absolutely. Woman should learnin humility. We are the clay,
not the potter, all of humankindis the clay, not the potter. And
anytime we don't learn withattitude of humility, I think
there's going to be situationsrepeated, like Paul is
addressing to Timothy here,where people are just going to

(23:53):
town with false teachings falsedirective, because they haven't
been humble and submissive inthe way that they have learned,
and have been deceived and aredeceiving.

Corina Espejo (24:05):
So when we're looking at, you know, 815, Why
does Paul use creation order?
And what does it have to do withwomen authority and teaching?

Jeanie Shaw (24:13):
Well, that's a really good question. Hard
question, for sure. And again,like I've said, on a lot of
these questions that you'veasked, I don't know for sure. I
do have some thoughts. And I dowant to point back to some of
the previous studies even thatJason did with us where we did

(24:34):
learn that man was not createdwith authority over woman. You
know, they both were givendominion over the earth. But
then after sin came, the fallcame dominion, seemed to change
to domination. And after thefall, the question of whether
authority or dominance is aprescription for humankind or a

(24:57):
description of what happens whenSen. enters the world. That's
key. That's key to, to evengoing on with looking at how to
view scriptures like this. Butalso you we've got some problems
even just in looking at that.
What does this mean creationorder. Because if creation order
confers authority, thenhonestly, realistically, the

(25:19):
sun, the moon, the stars,vegetation, animals would have
dominance, if it's all aboutcreation order, and it seems
like God was creating inascending order of importance.
Now, I'm not trying to say herethat women being created last
met, you know, he saved the bestfor last. But I will say, hey,
you know, after this, God doessay it's very good. But it's too

(25:42):
quick to just say, Oh, well, menare over women, because Adam was
created before Eve. I don'tbelieve that's what being
addressed. You'll God evenreversed the common practice of
primogeniture, or the privilegesfor the firstborn. I mean, we
can look at Isaac and IshmaelJacob and Esau, Reuben and

(26:05):
Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh,David and his brothers just to
see some places where justbecause someone was born first
didn't mean they got the theblessings of the firstborn, so
to speak. But the question is,why would Paul employ this
chronology? And again, I, like Imentioned some make assumptions.

(26:27):
And I do say that withassumptions because they're not
in the Scripture, Adam, we knowthis one isn't scripture was
obviously created first. But theprimogeniture or dominance or
authority can only be implied inan interpretation. Paul never
states that with meaning of maleauthority over women, it's just

(26:49):
not stated in the scriptures. Soit's someone's interpretation,
in some suggest that Eve usurpedAdams leadership. And then is
saying that Paul uses thisexample of the dire consequences
of undermining male authority,or subverting male leadership.
But I think that's problematicbecause Paul never states that

(27:11):
Eve subverted male authority. Imean, that's just not in there.
You others teach that Paul usesEve type illogically for deceive
women. And that may be the case.
Just as in Second Corinthians11. Three, he uses it for
deceived men and women. And thisinterpretation, Eve's deception

(27:31):
is what is in common with thosecausing deception in Ephesus,
and as deceive women. Pauldoesn't permit them to teach.
You know, there have beenhonestly, many teachings
throughout the restorationmovement, that Paul's
instruction was stated becausewomen are more easily deceived.
And there's just there isnothing but conjecture in that,

(27:54):
in fact, it's not evenconjecture, because it's just
studies have been done. It'sjust not true. It's been
scientifically proven thatthat's not the case. Women
aren't more easily deceived.
And, uh, but that has been useda many times that therefore
women shouldn't teach men.
Actually, in Ephesians, five,six, both men and women were

(28:15):
warned about deception. Youknow, and Paul does mentioned
Eve Sen. But doesn't attributesent her alone. In fact, Romans
512 attributes send Adam, Ibelieve the only surety is, or
the chronology of creation andthat Eve was deceived, and Eve
sinned from what we read here.
And Paul's narration, itincludes both creation and the

(28:36):
fall narratives. But it seems tobe a problem about deception,
not a problem about authoritythat's being addressed, if you
read that scripture and read thecontext, and we're going to get
to the context soon. Butdeception is a big problem. The
false teaching is a big problemthat seems to be being addressed

(28:56):
much more than a problem of whowas created first and the
authority that that brings it,which again, those are
conjectures.

Corina Espejo (29:08):
So with us kind of digging into some of these
specific points, like, you know,Paul, bringing up creation,
order and Adam coming first andeven thinking about deception.
Is there anything else about thecontext of the letter that we
should be thinking about, as wecontinue to read some of these
finer points?

Jeanie Shaw (29:26):
I think the context of the letter is crucial. I
really do. It's important tolook at the context of First
Timothy, and letter opens inFirst Timothy one, three and
four. And then a verse 18, withinstructions to Timothy to stay
in Ephesus, to instruct certainpeople not to teach any

(29:46):
different doctrine and not tooccupy themselves with Miss and
endless genealogies that promotespeculation rather than divine
training that's known by faith.
And then he says, so that youcan fight the good fight, having
faith In a good conscience, andwe're going to get into this a
little more. But I also want tomention First Timothy one, five,
because that follows. And that'sI was my husband's favorite

(30:08):
scripture. The aim of our chargeis love, the spring smoke, pure
heart, a clear conscience and agenuine faith. And that's
something important to me torealize, too. What's the aim of
the charge is love. It's lovethe springs from a pure heart a
clear conscience and genuinefaith. But the topic that he's
dealing with here is He'sinstructing them not to teach

(30:32):
any different doctrine. Theconclusion of the letter in
First Timothy six, verses two tofour, and then again, in verse
12, it reiterates this opening.
And he tells Timothy to teachand urge these duties and
whoever teaches otherwise, anddoesn't agree with the sound

(30:53):
words of our Lord. And theteaching that's in accordance
with godliness, his conceited,understanding nothing and has a
morbid craving for controversyand for disputes about words.
And then he says, fight the goodfight of faith, fight the good
fight of faith. And I want toattribute and thank scholar John
Mark Hicks for some of hisdelving into this because the

(31:15):
verb for teaching otherwise inGreek means to teach something
different. And there's only twoplaces where it's used in First
Timothy, one's in chapter oneand verse three, where Paul
instructs people not to teachany different doctrine. And then
in chapter six, near theclosing, where he says, Whoever
teaches otherwise that's thesame verb for teaching

(31:38):
otherwise. And I think thatthese openings and closing the
context of this identify Paul'spurpose, because as we've seen
throughout the letter, Timothyin the Ephesian church is
encountering a differentteaching that is disturbing the
church. And Chapter One is youmentioned Travis, you know,

(32:00):
Paul, he names to false teachersand manias and Alexander who's
he's turned over to Satan. Andthen Paul encourages Timothy to
fight the good fight againstSatan, in verses 18 through 20,
and then again in 612. But inchapter two, Paul begins the
chapter with the connecting thenI urge then, first of all the

(32:25):
petitions, prayers,intercessions. And Thanksgiving,
then are therefore, would beanother definition for it's a
it's a letter with a continuousflow. It's not divided by
chapters and verses. This is acontinuous flow. And we note
that Paul's instructions aregrounded in the good fight going
on in the church against thefalse teaching, because there's

(32:47):
no wonder he encourages men topray without anger, and then for
rulers so that we might leadquiet and peaceful lives. And
John Mark Hicks notes that Paulbarely survived a riot in
Ephesus that we read aboutearlier in Acts 19. But again,
it's it's a flow of fighting thegood fight against false

(33:11):
teaching. Paul charges Timothyto teach the mystery of
godliness in the Ephesian housechurches and that Timothy is to
have nothing to do with profanemyths and old wives tales and
old wives tales are Miss told byolder women.
And you know, when you startreading even keep going in
chapter five is kind ofinteresting that Paul seems to

(33:34):
connect this problem with someof the widows that he mentions
in First Timothy five theirinterest in Miss, he warns of
their sensuality, and going fromhouse to house teaching
nonsense, saying things theyought not to. And it seems like
there was also false teachingreferred to with the widows.

(33:55):
false teaching is confrontedthroughout this entire letter
from Paul to Timothy. So muchfalse teaching. And given the
context in what we do know aboutthe situation in Ephesus, it's
hard to imagine that Paul isjust his purpose to detail a
blueprint manual or churchpolity for all time is he writes

(34:18):
to Timothy concerning the churchin Ephesus. But more in response
to false teaching. He wantsTimothy to instruct believers to
live godly lives is the churchwithin the ungodly culture of
Ephesus, amidst all the falseteaching, live out their faith
in contrast to their culture,

Corina Espejo (34:37):
in that same thought of hey, when we read
something, make sure to read itin the context of the entire
letter because it is onecontinuous thought, when we read
First Timothy two verse eight,at least in the NIV. It starts
with that word, therefore, likeyou're saying, let's talk a
little bit about the versesbefore that verses one to four,
at least within this chunk ofpassage. What was Why did the

(35:01):
therefore come after verses oneto four?

Jeanie Shaw (35:03):
I would think that Paul knew that situations with
false teaching in suchsituations need a lot of prayer
for one thing, the men shouldlift totally hands, not in
anger. Now, I don't know whatwas going on. Again, if this was
a blueprint than men wouldalways need to lift holy hands
in prayer. I'm not sure whatthey were angry about. But if

(35:29):
what many scholars play mostscholars think was happening in
Ephesus, where women wereactually taking over control of
the church taking over theeldership and teaching false
doctrine as they did thatcertainly would have been a
temptation to be angry, right.
And, and yet, we need prayer.

(35:49):
But certainly this was asituation that it was not just a
little, maybe the woman was toopassionate, or maybe the woman
used a scripture and sayingsomething, I don't believe this
is what we're talking about. Ibelieve we're talking about
women who were promoting falseteaching who were taking over
the church, who were taking overthe eldership. Again, this is

(36:12):
what most scholars believe, butI I respect, other views that do
feel like this is more of atranscending principle, that
women aren't to usurp authority.
Again, my understanding of thatis just that usurping authority
would be like what was likelyhappening in Ephesus, a taking

(36:33):
over and teaching falsedoctrine. It was happening with
the women, I don't think thatwould be right for men to do
that either. Where that's clearin the Bible, again, obviously
wasn't right for men, becauselook what happened with
Alexander and Romania's didn'tgo so well for them. But again,
because it's being addressed towomen, it was evidently

(36:55):
something that was going on withthe women, not surprising, given
the culture that they were in.

Corina Espejo (37:02):
Yeah. And I like that word. You know, when we
think about that word authentic,what you're saying is, it's not
taking over meaning, hey, we'regoing to own some of the
responsibility like an imagebearer, we're going to partner
with amendment no often to whatyou're saying is, it's more like
somebody who dominates orbullies or somebody who's, you
know, kind of saying, Hey, shutup and sit down, and I'm going

(37:24):
to, I'm gonna correct whatyou've got wrong. You know,
there's something about it.
That's intimidating. Almost.

Jeanie Shaw (37:29):
Right.

Travis Albritton (37:30):
Yeah. And, and if I want to jump in and pull a
transcending principle fromthat, there's certainly been
periods in our own churchhistory, where the leadership
that we entrust to shepherd ourmembers have acted in that way.
Right, and we have corporatelyrepented, are continuing to
repent from that. And that is alesson we should absolutely take

(37:51):
and move forward with which isthat type of domineering,
bullying, abusive leadership ofwe're gonna grow. Even at your
own at your expense, hop on thebus or get run over by it. Yeah,
is not the kind of leadershipthat Jesus would espouse, or

(38:12):
model or encouraged in thechurch. So, yes. So if you're
looking for something reallypractical, if you're a leader,
make sure you lead like Jesuswould. And not in a way that is,
is domineering and abusive. Sohopefully something everyone can
agree on. From this page.

Jeanie Shaw (38:29):
It's, you know, to have that kind of leadership are
that kind of authentic views isit's not right for men or women.
But obviously, as mentioned, theproblem in Ephesus evidently has
to do with false teaching amongwomen.

Corina Espejo (38:44):
I appreciate us talking about this more. I know
for me when I learned what thisword meant a very, Travis, thank
you for the practical question Iasked myself because when I read
the definition, when when youlook at the Greek Lexicon, one
of the definitions forauthenticity is one who with
their own hands, kills anotheror themselves and almost in a
sense, saying, Hey, I'm going torob you of the identity God has

(39:06):
given you to further the gospelto follow Jesus. And I think
that's a some verbiage I've usedis Corina, okay, with what
you're doing? Are you robbingsomebody of who God created them
to be? When I learned what thisword was? I was okay. This is
something because I think it'ssomething easy for all of us to
do. But for me, specifically, Iwant to make sure I'm taking the

(39:29):
plank out of my own eyes on theway I'm talking to people are
serving them or working withothers. Am I stepping over them?
Am I robbing them of theiropportunity to be image bearers?
And so yeah, great questions.
Great practical. Thank you,Travis. Anything else you want
to mention about these versesone to four?

Jeanie Shaw (39:50):
Well, the only other thing I would just say is
an inverse three or verse four.
Paul, is he does so many placeshe reminds says that he wants
all people to be saved, and tocome to a knowledge of the
truth. And again, this was justan overarching principle. I
think that Paul states manytimes. And certainly, as we

(40:11):
talked about last week, thechurch in Corinth, if someone
comes in to a service, and womenare taking over teaching false
doctrine, that's certainly notgoing to help all people to be
saved and come to knowledge ofthe truth. It's very much in
opposition to that. And again,if I believe God was really

(40:33):
teaching me in the scriptures tothat this was the case that I
was not to teach men becausethat would be abusing authority.
That would be God. I'm okay withthat. I just don't think that's
what, personally, I don't thinkthat's what's being said. But
again, we each have to wrestlewith it, we have to gain our own

(40:54):
understanding, and our ownconsciences on it. Because it is
hard to understand. We don'thave the cold of Artemis for one
thing, we have other things forsure. We have other kinds of all
kinds of false teachings that goon. But in any situation, where
a sister or brother for thatmatter, tries to take over the

(41:18):
leadership with false teachingis bad. It was bad for Alexander
and him and as and, you know, itwas bad for the women who were
doing this that Paul wasaddressing, and First Timothy
two.

Corina Espejo (41:35):
Yeah, I love that we're talking about the pieces
before it because it goes alongwith some of these bigger themes
biblically. Right? So we needGod to pray. First of all right?
First of all, pray, bring yourprayers petitions before God,
why? Because you need God. Andthen for all people, because why
the gospel is for everyone. Andthat gospel that sits on Jesus,

(41:56):
right, it's about God, it's notabout us. And I like that we're
talking about obviously, thecautions in this. But I also
think it's great that we, wealso talk about what to do the
affirmations. So yeah, I lovethat. Can we dive back into some
of these more difficult pieces,the smaller difficulties? Okay.
What in the world? Does it mean,when we're speaking about us,

(42:22):
she will be saved throughchildbearing.

Jeanie Shaw (42:26):
A million dollar question, right? Yeah, there's a
number of thoughts on this. Andthere are some interesting ones,
some that that could be a coupleof the we know, it doesn't mean
we know that doesn't mean awoman who doesn't have children
can't be saved. We know that. Weknow that it doesn't mean that a
woman who was a godly womanwon't die in childbirth, you

(42:49):
know, again, a literal readingof that scripture could make us
think that right if we didn'tlook at the context, or dig
further, some of the mostprevalent explanations I have
seen, I'll mention three. One isthat I mentioned the new woman
influence, and there was atremendous negativity toward

(43:11):
pregnancy, nursing a childbecause of what it did to a
woman's figure. And even justsome of the negativity toward
having children to begin with.
There are some who thought oh,maybe that could be addressing
the influence that the new womanhad on this time. Some have also
felt that because Artemis wasalso the goddess of childbirth.

(43:33):
Women prayed to her for safetyand childbearing, he or she was
an idol. And perhaps in thisidolatrous situation, Paul's
reminding that Artemis is notChrist. She's not to be looked
to or prayed to for safety andchildbearing. And, you know,
there's some certainplausibility in that because I

(43:56):
can imagine if this is a deeprooted superstition, that it'd
be hard for women to not pray toher for safe labor. I mean,
like, Oh, my goodness, if Idon't do that, then just might
be detrimental to my child or tome. I mean, we can think that's
crazy. But we have superstitionstoday, you know, how many people
don't change their socks orunderwear when their favorite

(44:18):
sports team is playing? And isone when they you know,
seriously? A superstitions thatOh, can't do that. There's silly
things, but that can get intoour heads, right? Is
superstitions a certain ways wedo things we don't want to
dispel. And I just mentionedthat because this was evidently
a thing if she was the goddessof childbirth. Maybe Paul was

(44:39):
assuring them. She's not Jesus.
It's okay to let her go. AreSome have also felt that she
refers to Eve? And you mentionedthis earlier, Travis that she'll
be saved by, instead ofchildbearing? The birth of the

(45:01):
child Jesus, and could bereferring to the prophetic, your
hero will strike his head, orhis head will strike your heel,
that Jesus is the one who canovercome all of sin, all of
false teaching all of every heis the one to be praised, he is
the one we're worshipping. Andso another fairly popular view

(45:24):
is that she will be savedthrough the birth of the child,
Jesus meaning Eve, and then allpeople saved through the birth
of the child. So those are, Iwould say, the three common
ones. And which one is right. Idon't know.

Corina Espejo (45:42):
The speech language pathologists in me is
like, Ah, if only I was there tolike, hear somebody read this.
So I can hear tone of voice, Icould hear body language because
in your second and thirdexplanation, I read verse 15,
differently, right? I read itand I think okay, let's say it's
this the second explanation,right? He's trying to speak
through a this common myth, youknow, that childbearing having

(46:05):
children will save you somehowthrough this, you know, theology
of Artemis, right, so I read itI think yet she will be saved to
Charlie childbearing if theycontinue in faith in love and
holiness. And I read it as like,okay, okay, you have children,
but that's not really what'sgonna save you what's really
gonna save you is but then thepause and the and the if you

(46:25):
know, but you can't read thathere right? And then you have
that third explanation It'sokay. Yet she will be saved she
right then maybe a little bitmore emphasis on she yet she
will be saved their childbearingif they the offspring, right?
They continue in faith and loveand holiness with. So it's just
so interesting. I'm like, oh,man, the SLP The linguist in me

(46:46):
is like, Man, I wish I couldhear Paul save this with his own
self.

Jeanie Shaw (46:52):
Yes, don't we all?
Yeah, yes.

Travis Albritton (46:55):
100%. This is probably the, in studying this
question. These few verses arethe ones that I spent the most
time with, simply because theydon't just have implications for
the question at hands about cana woman preach to a mixed
audience on a Sunday, they canhave very deep theological
implications for how we thinkabout God, for how we think

(47:18):
about our identity. Yeah, inChrist as in as bearers, right.
And something that has stuckwith me. And to genies point, I
can't say with 100% certaintythat this is what Paul is
communicating. But it doesresonate to a certain extent
that makes sense and kind ofharmonizes a lot of the
questions that I have, in mymind, it's helpful to know, Paul

(47:40):
was very Jewish. There's thePharisees trained in Gamaliel.
He was one of the foremostthinkers of his age before he
converted to Christianity. Andthen after that became very
influential in Christianity. Andsomething that Paul often
carries over from his firstmedical training, is the style
of teaching that these rabbiswould do, which is where they

(48:02):
would refer to stories in theOld Testament, picking dots out
of them, and expecting thestudents to connect those dots
to reach the conclusion they'releading them to. And so they
would take these really odd,seemingly random pieces of
stories, and constructing themin a way that would drive the
student or the listener to acertain conclusion on their own.

(48:25):
But that wouldn't be somethingthe rabbi would tell them,
right, they would make them gosearching for it, like a
treasure hunt. And if you readverse 13, through verse 15,
without stopping, what we see isPaul is actually doing that.
He's taking Genesis one throughthree. And he's picking out
these details linearly in thestory, to contextualize it to

(48:48):
the problem at hand, which isthis false doctrine that these
women are teaching. And so if weread that we see, he's really
just kind of recounting thestory, as he goes, saying, you
know, Adam was for was formedfirst and Eve, Adam was not the
one to see that was the womanwho was deceived, and became a
sinner, but she referring toEve, will be saved through the
childbearing, referring toGenesis three. And it's almost

(49:12):
as if Paul is saying, Rememberthe story in Genesis, where this
happens? Remember, when therewas another false assumption
about who God is, and what hisexpectations are and what what
true doctrine is core doctrineis, remember the outcome of
that. Remember that when you'rethinking about confronting this

(49:33):
issue in front of you, becauseif we just read this, as Genie,
you so eloquently put it as Pauloffering a fresh interpretation
on the true meaning of Genesis.
He's not a very good OldTestament scholar then, because
the conclusions he's drawing aredirectly counter to the
conclusions you would draw ifyou just read Genesis on its
own. And Paul is very much awareof this. You know, he knows what

(49:56):
Genesis means. He knows aboutGenesis teaching, he knows the
big themes of image bearing andall the other things that come
thereafter, he's fully awarethat primogeniture is not a
consistent theme, positive themein the book of Genesis. He's
fully aware of that. So then whywould he do this? Why would he
drop these breadcrumbs. Andwhat's really, I think, mind

(50:17):
blowing is how he lands on 15.
He says, At the end of thestory, remember this, she will
be saved through thechildbearing that even though
there is a deception thathappened that led humankind
astray, it is not a foreverthing, that someday, a child

(50:40):
from this woman will crush thehead of this serpents. And it
just connects the dots to somany other larger themes that we
see in the New Testament, aboutthe Kingdom of God, about the
atoning work of Jesus, you know,and how, because of Jesus's
sacrifice and resurrection, hehas destroyed this, the sin of
Adam has completely overcome sinand death. And so when we have

(51:01):
to ask, well, then what remainsof the fallen nature of Genesis
three, for the people of God,for the people that are striving
to bring the kingdom of God toEarth? Do we still have to go
out and change our careers toagriculture and work really,
really hard to make our foodbecause that's what Adam had to
do after he sinned? And so thoseare all questions to consider,

(51:24):
and all other data points tohelp us contextualize. Not just
what is Paul trying tocommunicate to Timothy? But then
what would it mean for us,holistically, trying to
understand what does it mean tohonor God with how we do
community together? What doesthat look like to honor one
another, to practice one anotherscriptures to and with each

(51:47):
other? Right, that that'ssomething we haven't dug into
all those one another passages?
They're not just for men'sright. All right. So when it
says admonish one another,applies to women as well, I

Jeanie Shaw (52:00):
think one another, I think you're a one another.

Travis Albritton (52:04):
And so while it is easy to laser focus on a
handful of hotly contestedpassages, to come away with an
answer, because it seems likethat's the clearest, most
straightforward path to gettingto the answer we're looking for.
We have to be careful that wedon't draw too many inferences,
and make too many assumptionsthat aren't actually there and,
and don't don't harmonize witheverything else that we read in

(52:26):
the Bible.

Jeanie Shaw (52:27):
That's a great point, I think, well said,

Corina Espejo (52:30):
I have a proposition A fun proposition.
Earlier, a couple episodes back,we tried on all the different
tools that we've talked about atleast three of the different
types of hermeneutics, right? Iwonder if it would be
beneficial, just to briefly andmaybe all three of us can take
on one, right? Let's read thisright for looking at chapter

(52:50):
two, at least in First Timothy,chapter two, and pulling out
okay for to read this withblueprint hermeneutic properly,
and I'll say it that wayproperly, right. What can we
what can we gain? If we were tolook at it with theological
hermeneutic? What What can wegain, and then trajectory
hermeneutic. And again, usingthese tools properly, not all
willy nilly and inappropriately,but really staying true to what

(53:13):
these tools can help us? gainfrom from Scripture. So what do
we think? Are we up for thechallenge? Sounds like fun, give
it a whirl. Let's start Iactually love to end on
blueprint. Let's do trajectoryfirst, then we'll do
theological, and then we'lltackle blueprint.

Travis Albritton (53:29):
Oh, boy. All right. I'll tackle trajectory,
I'll give all the same hedgesthat we did in that hermeneutics
episode, which is handled withcare. Anytime you start dipping
your toe in trajectory,hermeneutic. Or you could lose
your way very, very quickly. Andit's also helpful to remember
which trajectory hermeneutic youare staying rooted in the
Scripture as you apply thishermeneutic. So you're not just

(53:52):
using your own wisdom to createout of nothing. Alright, so I
think that's another mistake wecan make is, well, I think this
is what the Bible should say.
And so I will look for thosebreadcrumbs to arrive at the
conclusion, I've decided iscorrect. So that's not how you
apply it either. So it'sactually really great that in
this passage, Paul talks aboutGenesis, because in any good

(54:13):
trajectory, hermeneutic that'swhere you want to start. And so
we see that the entire story ofthe Bible is a story of
creation. We have the fall, wehave God's rescue plan, which
culminates in Jesus. And then wehave this new family of God,
truly the fulfillment of whatIsrael should have been this
nation of priests that has alight to the world, and that

(54:37):
we're all looking forward to thecoming age, where we get to be
with God, and Heaven, which isgoing to be epic and awesome.
And so where does this fit onthat timeline? Where is this
passage in this teaching? So itwould be after Jesus, if we're
thinking chronologically, and sowe're trajectory. hermeneutical
ask the question. Why What doesit mean, to bring the kingdom of

(55:00):
God to Earth? With theseprinciples of standing up for
sound doctrine, those corefundamental doctrines that we
cannot waver from the thingsthat define our faith, as
opposed to other faiths? Andasking the question, if anything
has shifted between when Paulwrites this in our time now,

(55:21):
what would that shift look like?
And where would we be going? Andso the kinds of questions you
would ask would be, if men andwomen are both equal image
bearers, there's no Asterixattached to a woman image bearer
versus a male image bear thanthe expectation is when we're in
heaven one day, that would alsobe the case. Right, that if

(55:44):
we're co rulers on Earth, thatwe would have that same shared
status in heaven. And everythingthat that would imply, so then a
trajectory hermeneutic couldlead you to the conclusion that,
yeah, for First Timothy, thereare some real issues with false
doctrine that Paul's addressing,and in to chapter two, he's
talking to the women, but like,the whole rest of the book is

(56:06):
talking to both men and women.
And so it would make sense that,yeah, if a woman is teaching
false doctrine is leading peopleastray, and is acting in a way
that is not Christ, like withthe leadership and with the
church, then that woman shouldinstead take a posture of
learning with humility, untilshe can know what is the right
doctrine. But that would notmean that a woman who was fully

(56:29):
equipped and trained and could,could teach adequately and
effectively to edify the body,that would not preclude her from
doing that. In fact, that wouldbe a really great thing, to have
more perspectives, more livedexperiences, more holy
revelation, speaking into thecongregation. So a trajectory

(56:50):
hermeneutic with this passage,would lead you to a conclusion
that this is not saying, womencan't teach in church. It's
rather confronting the falseteaching that's going on. But
for our own church practices,for our own purposes, this would
not be a nail in that coffin atall. In fact, it would probably

(57:12):
be the opposite. It'd be anencouragement that women that
can teach effectively, we needto give them that opportunity.
Now, again, that's the firsthermeneutic we have two more, so
you can drop your pitchforks.
Because I'm not even saying thatthat's the view that I espouse.
All right. So, but that is howyou would apply a trajectory

(57:35):
hermeneutic to this passage.

Corina Espejo (57:37):
That's tough one, you did it. Great. I think
that's very good. All right.
theological hermeneutic. And I'mjust going to take this apart
piece by piece, I will admit, asyou were talking, Travis, I was
like, Okay, what am I gonna say?
I was like, no, no, let's, let'skeep this candid. And Kodak, let
me focus on what Travis issaying. And I'll go through this
real time. All right. Looking atthis just front, you know, first

(57:58):
verse, first verse to the end ofchapter two. I'm going to be
looking at who is God, I'mlooking at theological
hermeneutic. What can I learnabout God? And is it cohesive
with what we know about God andin Scripture as a whole?
Alright? I desire then thatevery place that men should
pray, lifting holy hands withoutanger, or quarreling, how that

(58:20):
sits within this concept of whoGod is because God who wants
everybody to come to Him to besaved? To have the knowledge of
truth? I think my first thoughtis, if I'm lifting, you know,
not me specifically, butapparently, you know, these men,
if we're calling them, hey, liftyour hands, holy hands to come

(58:41):
before God, there's somethingabout us as you need to come
before God with what you have,but the best of what you have to
come and righteousness andholiness. And I think that anger
and quarreling would get in theway of that it would get in the
way of people seeing God, theywould make me think, Oh, these
two people are fighting. Who'sthis Joe? And who's this bill?
And what are they doing? Youknow, I don't know, I chose

(59:01):
those words. But it would makeme think what's wrong with those
guys, right? It wouldn't make methink, wow, God, when I walk
into something, and I see twopeople quarreling, I don't think
about God, I think about thosetwo people. And so it continues
on in talking about this verse12 women and especially at that
time, what we know about thecontext, who come in and again,
it's this I am woman hear meroar in such a manner that it's

(59:24):
dominating, intimidatingbullying, right? I and this is
something I know I'm a verydirect person. I've got to be
careful of this myself, becausethat is just my nature that I
can be so direct, and I and Isay that meaning so direct, that
it really does come across likeI'm saying, Hey, shut up and sit
down. And I could be saying thesame thing as anybody else. But

(59:46):
with the tone of voice if Icomment, I just come in giving
orders because I'm all about thebusiness. I'm a New Yorker,
right time is money. But thatdoesn't. That's not always
appropriate for the situation.
And it doesn't always helppeople to feel like Hey, I am
there's a piece here, I'm cominginto something where it's about
God, it's dignified. Sometimesit can make people feel like,
they're, they're just a product,right? That they're just there

(01:00:09):
to produce. So even in thatsense to be careful, both men
and women, but for women in thisparticular time period, to be
careful not to be that person,be that woman of the time, to
rob people of their purpose andtheir shared responsibility. So
I look at all that and and youknow what, I'll be honest with
you. 1314 15. theologicalhermeneutic. I think God has I'm

(01:00:32):
just gonna end on 15. Becausethe only certain thing that I
can pull from that about what Iunderstand about God, man, does
he want us to continue in faith,love, holiness and self control.
And that's consistent with thefirst couple of verses in
chapter two, as well as theentire book, especially where we
land on in chapter six. Right.

(01:00:54):
So Well, I think we're on to ourthird one, blueprint.
hermeneutic

Jeanie Shaw (01:00:59):
Yeah, so you blueprint hermeneutic as I take
the scientific approach to tryto figure out, okay, if I'm
looking at this as a blueprint,the model for what the Bible is
saying here, and wants me toimitate as it was here in the
first century, it would be Iwill just start with where we

(01:01:21):
started in verse eight, that itwould be very important that as
we're worshiping together, thatthe men when praying, lift up
their hands, and certainly notbe disputing with each other.
And it's also very important forall time that women dress

(01:01:42):
modestly. And that includes thedescription here, of not having
elaborate hairstyles, so theyneed to really be careful about
up dues, braids, things likethat, really need to forego
jewelry, and really need to makesure that their clothes aren't

(01:02:05):
like the name brand expensiveones, because that's what the
Bible is teaching here in thisblueprint, and that that's
appropriate for women who aregoing to profess to worship God
so that, according to this bythe blueprint, if a woman is
wearing jewelry, elaboratehairstyles, she's definitely not
professing to worship God.
Because that's what the says,and then that she needs to learn

(01:02:28):
in quietness and fullsubmission. I don't permit a
woman to teach or to someauthority over a man she must be
quiet is I look at thisblueprint, I would see this as a
woman teaching is assumingauthority over a man, if I'm
just looking at it like thatwithout some of the definition

(01:02:51):
that we have, have done. And sothere's really not an
appropriate time. For a woman tobe teaching where there are men,
she must be quiet. And to not dothat would not be learning and
quietness and full submission.
And according to the Blueprinthere, the reason given is

(01:03:12):
because Adam was formed first.
And so there's a certainauthority and privilege and the
creation order, and also becauseEve was deceived, and became a
sinner in that. And so is thatblueprint, then that's just
another reason why a womanshould not be teaching a man

(01:03:33):
because it would beauthoritative. And it was a
result of who was formed first.
And he being deceived. Verse 15,I'm not quite sure how to print
on that. Except for she's got tocontinue in faith, love and

(01:03:56):
holiness, with propriety, and Iwould probably is a blueprint
define holiness and proprietywith what I had just described
in what she wears, and how shespeaks in the audience with whom
she speaks. That's sort of how Iwould approach it as a
blueprint, and I think has beencommonly approached as a

(01:04:18):
blueprint. Yeah. When

Travis Albritton (01:04:19):
I think about blueprint for verse 15, I think
more of like a culturalblueprint of, you know,
especially connecting it to metalks about not gossiping in
other places where Paul says,Hey, if you're burning with
passion, go get married. That'sa good thing, saying that the
proper role for women, all theway back to Genesis is to be

(01:04:40):
homemakers, that that is therole for women within creation.
That's not a bad thing. If wedon't replace the population
will die out. It's not good. Andso that's that's just that's
what it means to honor God withyour life is to settle down,
have kids raise kids, and thenyeah, through their legacy

(01:05:00):
you're able to Yeah, you know,make disciples.

Jeanie Shaw (01:05:03):
Yes, thank you for adding that that would be
important for blueprint.

Travis Albritton (01:05:07):
Now, this episode has gone super long.
However, something that ourastute listeners will pick up is
if we apply that blueprinthermeneutic here, where it says
pretty clearly like, theredoesn't seem to be a lot of
scenarios where women teachingwould be God honoring, what are
we to make of other passages? Infirst Corinthians like someone's
we looked at where it seems likewomen were contributing, and

(01:05:31):
speaking in a somewhatauthoritative manner. Because
with blueprint, you're lookingto figure out where these
differences overlap because theycan't contradict each other, if
their principles for all timethat apply to us today. Then
what Paul is telling FirstTimothy, and when he tells the
church in Corinth complementseach other perfectly. And so
then how do you blend theexpectation that women prophesy

(01:05:54):
and pray in the assembly, butthen also that they're quiet and
learn in full submission? Howwould you make heads or tails of
those two scriptures?

Jeanie Shaw (01:06:02):
I think I would be rethinking the hermeneutic that
I use, and interpreting thatbecause it doesn't work.

Travis Albritton (01:06:09):
Something we will have lots of fun with in
the next episode.

Corina Espejo (01:06:13):
I have a quick tip, if if somebody is like, I
just can't let blueprinthermeneutic go. Let's just say,
I and Genie, you did a greatword study for us today, even
just on this word, often tail. Ialmost wonder, for me what helps
me stay true to the Scripture.
When I do a word study, if I'mgoing to use blueprint
hermeneutic, let's say you know,I'm just looking at, you know,
verse 12. When I replace theEnglish word with the Greek

(01:06:38):
word, it almost trains my brainto think back to the word study
I just did and understanding theways that that word has been
used. And because things getlost in translation, we know
this, any good Bible scholarknows this. So when you start to
study out the word, if I say,okay, Bluefin hermeneutic, me as
a woman, I cannot often tail Iam strongly, you know, cautioned

(01:06:59):
against that, don't permit me toauthentic tail, I immediately
think of what I've just learnedabout that Greek word, rather
than hearing authority, andplacing my whatever, you know,
viewpoint I have, we talk aboutpresuppositions on it. I wonder
if it's helpful if you know,those of you and listen to what

(01:07:21):
we're telling you be carefulusing blueprint hermeneutic in
this passage, but let's be real,we know y'all are going to do
it, because that's just what wedo as humans. A quick tip. And
again, pairing it with theseother hermeneutics, if it can
stack up against the entiretheme of the Bible, or even just
within the the book that you'rereading the letter that you're

(01:07:42):
reading, if it's an epistle, youmight have better accuracy to to
the meaning of the text. Butthat that was that's something
that's been helpful for me ifI'm like, I can't let it go. To
say, wait a minute, what did Ijust learn? And then use Pattern
Type thinking with it?

Travis Albritton (01:08:02):
Yeah, and blueprint isn't bad. It's not a
bad hermeneutic. Yeah. Like it'svery useful. And there lots of
situations where we really dowant to practice with the early
church practice. Yeah. Andthat's the right thing to do so.
So again, these are all toolsthat are designed to help us
understand who God is, what itmeans to follow him
individually, and also as afaith community. And we want to

(01:08:24):
make sure that we're holistic inour approach of doing that.

Jeanie Shaw (01:08:27):
Absolutely. And I think it's so important to
because even what your the wordauthenticity, Oh, yeah. And
that's disputed, right? We don'tknow for sure. And so we can
think we can learn from whatpeople who've studied it mean,
but again, there's differentviews. Well,

Travis Albritton (01:08:47):
this has been a fun episode. Hopefully, you
know, even though it might havebeen a little brain twister for
you. We didn't lose you alongthe way. And, you know,
hopefully, that the whole goalof this podcast is really just
to equip you with the tools thatyou need to go into your own
personal Bible study on thesethings, you know, that none of
us would claim to be theauthority or the final word, on

(01:09:09):
reading the Bible or followingGod. We just want to share the
things that we've learned thathave been helpful. And so
hopefully, you're getting thatout of this podcast. If you want
to stay up to date on thingsthat are going on in the near
future with this podcast, makesure you subscribe to the
newsletter, women churchpodcast.com. But stick around
because next week, we'reactually going to start drawing
some conclusions from our 10hour marathon that we've just

(01:09:32):
wrapped up looking at the Bibleand all these passages on
women's roles, and how itapplies to us in the church. So
make sure you stick around forthat episode, and we'll see you
then.