September 8, 2021 • 61 mins
In this episode, Jason Alexander joins us to walk through Genesis 1 and 2 and discuss what it means for our identity as human beings in God's creation.
Questions we'll answer in this episode:
- What is an image bearer?
- Why is it bad for Adam to be alone in the garden?
- How does the Hebrew word "ezer" help us see our role in God's creation?
Resources We Mentioned:
- Origins by Paul Copan and Douglas Jacoby
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Travis Albritton (00:01):
Welcome to the women in church podcast where we
take a fresh look at what theBible teaches about women in
church, for the ICRC, I amTravis Albritton. Joining me as
always is Corina spay Whoa,
Corina Espejo (00:13):
Hello again,
Travis Albritton (00:15):
man's. For this episode, we also have
another guest, Jason Alexander,welcome to the podcast. Yes,
thank you. super exciting. Sofor anyone who's listening who
isn't familiar with you, justgive us kind of a quick, one
minute auto biography of who youare how you serve within the
ICSC. And then your yourScholastic academic background
(00:38):
as well when it comes to Biblestudy.
Jason Alexander (00:39):
Yeah, it's pretty, pretty amazing. So,
yeah, I'm a Midwesterner fromIllinois, but most of my life in
Wisconsin, d minus student inhigh school. So it took me a
while to figure out what I'minterested in. I went back to
school in my early 20s, and fellin love with reading, reading
(01:06):
Semitic languages, and it justso happened there was a kind of
a top flight department in mybackyard in Madison. So yeah, I
I joined and spent a lot of timeand money there and made it out
alive. intact. So yeah, so I'musing that as a as a way to
(01:30):
think through the Bible and howChristians are interacting
specifically with the OldTestament.
Travis Albritton (01:38):
Well, and you also when you were serving in
the ministry in the Midwest, youwere part of the the teachers
group, the teaching group there.
Jason Alexander (01:45):
Yep. I'm still affiliated, even though I live
on the other side of the mapnow. But yeah, I still I still
like up with those guys. Yeah,the teachers in Midwest. Okay,
let's see the title now is theMidwest, teachers circle, which
sounds very exclusive. But theylet me in so it obviously isn't.
Travis Albritton (02:08):
It sounds like little Knights of the Round
Table. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Yep. And then what is the churchthat you're serving in right now
with your wife,
Jason Alexander (02:13):
it is the South sound Church of Christ, which is
a, a church, in three regions,near and around the Puget Sound?
Travis Albritton (02:23):
Well, Jason, we're glad to have you with us.
So today, in this episode, we'regonna be tackling Genesis
chapter one, and chapter two,specifically, with kind of the
perspective the filter of whatdoes the Bible have to say about
men and women in the church andtheir interactions with each
other. And it is important tostart in the book of Genesis,
(02:44):
because it's the beginning ofthe story that God has given us.
And it is very often referencedthroughout the rest of the
Bible, when it comes to thisquestion.
Corina Espejo (02:54):
So what is the backdrop for the creation story
in the book of Genesis?
Jason Alexander (02:59):
Oh, yeah. Well, this is a. And my guess is that
all of these questions will befairly involved with this. This
is certainly one of them. One ofthe more complicated, maybe even
controversial questions, Ithink, it's helpful to recognize
(03:19):
that Israel has a, what you'dcall a shared cognitive setting
with her neighbors, it's AncientNear East, other side of the
world, they write from the otherside of the page. So it seems
through reading creation, mythcreation accounts, from Israel's
(03:43):
neighbors, that they thoughtabout things in very similar
way. Now, that's not to say thatGenesis chapter one or two was
written to necessarily arguewith or, or even is in dialogue
with those stories. But But youdo detect a similar cosmology or
(04:05):
way of understanding the createdworld. So at the very least,
Genesis is meant to guide wellnow the people of faith, but
certainly Israel into a deeperunderstanding of their own
identity and the God with whomthey have to do but I think
(04:26):
first and foremost, that's animportant question that the
backdrop is important because itcomes out of lace far away and
long ago. So that that's that'sbig. When you set out to read
something like Genesis. glossingover that reality will land you
in all kinds ofmisunderstandings, I think,
(04:48):
sometimes, oftentimes,especially with Genesis, the
creation, parts of Genesis.
There's abuse, I think, becausethat that fact isn't
acknowledged
Corina Espejo (04:59):
and so If what you're saying why Genesis was
written it was for Israel, sothat they can understand and be
guided by their identity andorigins and God the Creator. Is
there something to maybe whyGenesis was Witten written in
the literary style that it was?
Do you think?
Jason Alexander (05:16):
Oh, yeah, you're just going deeper into
the complexity? Yeah. It'sinteresting. Um, you almost we,
you know, he's saying thingslike, how was Genesis written,
you almost want to put quotesaround written because you
imagine who's a popular author,Jane Austen, or something like
(05:39):
that sitting down at hertypewriter or her Mac Book,
opening it up in and hammeringout a book. Genesis certainly
does not sit before us by way ofthat kind of process, Genesis,
even within the text itself. Andyou can notice this, and
certainly notice in Hebrew, butyou notice in English as well,
that there are editors at work,bringing together key ideas that
(06:04):
will inform people of Israel'sGod and their origins. So why
it's a specific way. I thinkit's part and parcel with the
agenda. So for example, why doesGenesis chapter one sit in a
seven day scheme of creation,right. And this is a hot Hot
(06:28):
Topic among those who care aboutthese things. But doing more
intertextual study of the HebrewBible, looking at other creation
stories around Israel, again, weget an insight that seven has
much to do with the idea of thetemple, or the place where a
deity resides. And so, it seemsclear to me though, this this is
(06:53):
argued against by by some, thatGenesis one is is written to
talk to us about God creatingand then coming to the, in the
language of Genesis two, onethrough three to rest in, in
creation to take up to inhabitto take up a residence in
(07:15):
creation. That would be a a wayof explaining the literary
structure of say Genesis chapterone, it's it's meant to talk to
us about the world as a placewhere God takes up residence.
And there's all kinds of reallyinteresting ways that that bears
itself out in both Genesis Oneand two, three.
Corina Espejo (07:38):
I love your humility, by the way, and your
honesty and even justtransparency to say like that
some of these things are evendebated amidst you know, and so
I love that because it's goodfor us to hear not everybody
agrees, even on some of thesedays, but
Jason Alexander (07:52):
Genesis has a way of upsetting or our
certitudes, you know, we thinkwe've grasped everything that's
going on there. And more timesthan not, I noticed that people
have missed altogether, some ofthe key ideas. And again, that's
not because it's impossible toread. That's I'm not trying to
make Genesis seem so complicatedthat you know, only if you only
(08:17):
if you spend the rest of yourlife studying it. It'll make
sense. That's not my point. Butit's, it's having a, you're
right, I am very humble. That'sthat's a good point. It's having
a hug. Just kidding. It's havinga humility, to approach it as
somewhat foreign. And I thinkwhen you do that, especially for
(08:38):
new readers of Genesis, you'reheading them off at the past and
potentially preventing crises offaith because all of the sudden,
a careful reading might notallow the reigning ideas about
Genesis to fit. Yeah,
Travis Albritton (08:57):
so all those things, Jason, you just talked
about phenomenal. I want to drawsome connections to stuff we
talked in the last episode aboutas far as how to read the Bible.
So when Jason's talking aboutlike, the writers, or the
editors having an agenda, that'swhat we call it, the occasional
situational nature of Scripture,there was a reason it was
written, that it was writtenfrom a group to a group, right?
(09:21):
And also that there are culturalunderpinnings to this
conversation. That's the wordingthat we use in the last episode.
Good. And so so when we look atthe story of Genesis, just
recognize, you know, it wasn'tjust a group of, you know,
Jewish scholars saying, Let'scapture the story of God
creating and how that relates tous. It was also in response to
(09:47):
other creation myths that werein civilizations around them.
Yeah, not just to say, you know,point by point our God is
better, but to communicate whythe God that they serve is
radically different the way thathe relates to him, then the gods
around them. Oh, that's verytrue.
Jason Alexander (10:05):
The other thing that's been surprising to me
over the years and the more Iencounter this, the more it
takes my breath away is like anywonderful piece of art, Genesis,
Genesis is assembled, written,edited, whatever redacted by
resilient folk, you know, they,they have told a story, not only
(10:26):
with their words and theirvocabulary, and, you know,
sentence structure or somethinglike that, but but also the very
the form of the text, right?
It's so much is intentional, tothe point that you almost think
that can't be that can't be thecase that's too detailed, but
more times than not, no, theythey're thinking at a register,
(10:47):
just above where we tend to readand approach texts. So
Travis Albritton (10:53):
if you're listening to this, and you're
like, wow, there's a lots ofGenesis I didn't know about.
Douglas Jacoby co wrote a bookcalled origins which digs into
the first 11 chapters ofGenesis, you can pick it up on
Amazon or at his website, andwe'll leave a link to that in
the show notes and also on ourresource list. So if you want to
get into more like the scholarlybackdrop of Genesis and the
cultural context and things likethat, that book goes really
(11:14):
super in depth of a Corina?
Yeah. Why don't you hop us rightinto our first scripture reading
for the day?
Corina Espejo (11:21):
Yeah, yeah. So let's do Genesis 126, to 31.
Then God said, Let us make humanbeings in our image to be like
us, they will reign over thefish in the sea, the birds in
the sky, the livestock, all thewild animals on the earth, and
the small animals that scurryalong the ground. So God created
human beings in His own image inthe image of God, He created
(11:42):
them, male and female, hecreated them, then God bless
them and said, Be fruitful, andmultiply fill the earth and
governent rain over the fish inthe sea, the birds in the sky,
and all the animals that scurryalong the ground. Then God said,
Look, I have given you everyseed bearing plant throughout
the earth, and all the fruittrees for your food. And I have
given every green plant as foodfor all the wild animals, the
(12:04):
birds in the sky, and the smallanimals that scurry along the
ground, everything that haslife, and that is what happened
first 31 then God looked overall he had made, and he saw that
it was very good. And eveningpassed and morning came marking
the sixth day. That was Genesis126 31 nlt. Version.
Travis Albritton (12:22):
Perfect. So first opportunity for a
misreading here. So right offthe bat, verse 26. God said, Let
us write Of course, make mankindthat our image, who is us? Yeah,
let's just clear that reallyquick. Yeah, this point, it's
just been God. Right. And nowall of a sudden, someone else is
(12:42):
there. So walk us through that.
Jason.
Jason Alexander (12:45):
It is jarring.
Genesis is almost scientific, inthe way that it approaches
creation. Everything has itsplace an order. And each is you
know, quote, according to itskind, and it has a fairly
repetitive are a pattern ofdivine speech in creating the
world. And then all of a sudden,there's a there's a break with
(13:06):
that. And this plural cohortative would be the form let us
has just been a Yeah, a sourceof theological reflection, since
Genesis, it seems, has been readand written about so there are
more options for who us is,then. Then it's probably
(13:30):
helpful. The two prominent onesthat I'm familiar with our
reading it backwards, you seethe Trinity. Yeah,
Travis Albritton (13:39):
right. Right.
Right. Or it could be similar tothe beginning of job addressing
the heavily assembly. Right,exactly. Right. Right. Those
those are the two that I'mfamiliar with. Are there other?
Oh,
Jason Alexander (13:52):
yeah. My goodness, people get really
creative with this. Yeah. Andand, you know, they're all in
for good reason. I mean, it isnot, it's not obvious. And
there's no decoder ring. Youknow, it comes with with
Genesis.
Travis Albritton (14:05):
So what are we to make of that? And is it? Is
it relevant? Yeah, to have theprecise answer to understand the
story in our place in it,
Jason Alexander (14:14):
um, it could be relevant depending on how you
understand us, it could havequite an impact on the the
interpretation of what youimagine a human is, because
that's what this is about, youknow, the thing being made in
our, quote, image is a humanbeing some of the other options
(14:36):
and these are these people goback and forth about this one.
Some rabbis have suggested thatit's the earth itself, and that
sounds insane. But there aremoments in the creation server
God is speaking to the earth.
He's talking to the earth as ifit's a living breathing life
giving entity and so some someof suggests that it's the Earth
(14:59):
Angels or some kind of likeangelic Cordier he could be
speaking to and there's there'sevidence of that elsewhere in
the Bible. The Heavenly court isthe one I think I would. I'm
most attracted to. I'll say moreabout that in just a second. But
yeah, the Trinity is anotherone. And I don't, I'm quite sure
(15:21):
those who are reading genesisfor the first time, those to
whom Genesis was written or forwhom Genesis was written, they
wouldn't have grasped the ideaof the Trinity. So I don't know
that I'd want to say, Well, thatwas the author, that that was
what they were thinking was theTrinity. You're right, you have
(15:42):
to do some beginning with Jesusand working through these texts
after an encounter with Jesus.
But substantively, I thinkthat's fine to talk about the
Trinity being present here,because certainly, the New
Testament will say somethingvery similar to that, that Jesus
is intimately involved withcreation. Okay, but here are
(16:04):
some other options real quick,I'll run through, there could be
some kind of vestige ofpolytheism You know, there are
Israel's neighbors believed inand served more than one God.
And so some have suggested,well, this is just cultural
baggage. You know, Israel isancient, like, Mesopotamia. And
so, you know, this just might bethe idea that there are several
(16:28):
gods. Some say it could be theRoyal we have you heard that one
that we're the plural ofmajesty, have you ever used
that? Like, we will be having acoke for dinner, but you're just
referring to yourself?
Travis Albritton (16:41):
Not since I became a disciple.
Jason Alexander (16:44):
That's good.
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty arrogantway to speak. Yeah. So but
that's many See, see that as apossibility that it's God
speaking in a pluralistic kindof elevated magisterial kind of
speech, the plural of selfdeliberation, which is like
thinking to yourself and somegreat commentaries on Genesis,
(17:06):
go for this route, that God isthinking to himself, let's,
let's make let's make man youknow, let's let's make woman so
it's it's more of a internaldialogue or internal What do you
say internal monologue, I guess,with God, the plural of
exhortation, which is just like,let's, let's see, just using
(17:29):
using the plural, the pluralitywithin the Godhead that you
notice the spirit, you're rightin verse, what does that verse
two. Or it could just be an IT.
Here's a really unexciting one,but just agreement with the
plural word. ello heme, that'sa, we translate ello heme God,
(17:55):
but it's a plural, it's a pluralword. So those are all the major
options, I think, on the tableif you read, but john Walton in
his commentary on Genesis, whichis a fairly easy read, he does
something helpful. He groupsthem into three buckets, like,
let's see, he calls them the youhave theological options. That
(18:20):
would be like the Trinity,Trinity would be the major one
that stands out in my mind, youhave grammatical options, which
is like the Royal plural or theplural of self deliberation. I
think that one's the hardest. Atleast he thinks that's the
hardest to argue for. And thenyou have the cultural bucket,
like explaining the plural byusing cultural backdrop. And
(18:41):
that would be things like yousaid it like using the ancient
Near Eastern idea of a heavenlycourt a lots of elohiym meeting
together with the great Hi,Chief eloheem the Lord, right,
Israel's God is presiding overthis court. And so the cultural
(19:02):
way of getting at this, this usI think, is the most helpful
because like you said, you canlook at other places, Isaiah
chapter six of First Kingschapter 22, there are other
places where you see Godspeaking like this in an
assembly. So I like the idea,some kind of angelic or heavenly
(19:24):
divine being surrounding God inhis creative work. And they too,
are like God in that they arehighly spiritual, powerful
beings. And so, if that's true,then what a human is, is pretty
unique. Because we're talkingabout then the humans not you
(19:48):
know, God isn't conversing withthe ground, but God is
conversing with divine beings.
And humans are like them. It'spretty amazing. Well,
Travis Albritton (20:00):
and regardless of where you land on what us
represents, you can certainlypull that out. Just reading
Genesis one, you notice once youget to day six, this is
different. Yeah, right? This isdifferent than the birds of the
year, the fish of the sea, thebeasts of the earth, and the
plants and the, the greaterlight and lesser light, like
humans are special. Yeah, andso. So let's, let's move to that
(20:25):
little poem within the poem thatwe get in Genesis one, then God
said, Let us make mankind in ourimage in our likeness, so that
they rule over the fish in thesea, and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all thewild animals and over all the
creatures that move along theground. So God created mankind
in His own image, in the imageof God, He created them, male
(20:48):
and female, he created them. Sowalk us through, what does it
mean to be an image bearer ofthe Divine? And specifically in
the backdrop in the context ofwhat that would mean, to someone
in ancient Mesopotamia hearingthat language? Yeah.
Jason Alexander (21:09):
Yeah, this is where reading like Babylonian
creation myth, for example,would, would really show how
Israel is unique in the way theythink about humanity. There's
that there's that Psalm, Psalmeight says, What is a human
being, and he answers you, Godhave made them slightly lower
(21:31):
than ello him, and he useslanguage like you've crowned
them, you've made them, you'vefound them with glory. So humans
are esteemed. They're not theproduct of a cosmic battle,
which you have in other creationaccounts in the ancient Near
East where Gods go to war. Andwhen the god bleeds, its blood
(21:53):
mixed with the dirt. And so youhave humanity and humans are
made not in the image of theDivine, but because the gods
themselves have needs and needsservants and slaves. And so
there's a much lower vision ofhumanity. And certainly, the
most generous would would besomething like a human, the
(22:15):
human King is made in the imageof God, but certainly not
everybody. And what Genesis doesis, I think, somewhat
revolutionary, it's still is arevolutionary text, because it's
setting forth humanity as a, youknow, a no caste, no hierarchy
kind of system is ademocratization of divine rule.
(22:36):
And so it's not that one or afew kings or kingdoms rule
creation, but the whole ofhumanity. And I think that's
important here. You know, Godsays, Let us make a dumb, it's
not let us make a male in ourimage, but let's make the whole
of the human population in ourimage, and they will be rulers.
(22:59):
David Klein's, in his articlesays in this is food for
thought. He says, you know, it'snot so much that we are made in
God's image. Because and that'sa good point, God doesn't have
an image, what in the world doesGod look like? And so I guess
you could look at a human beingand say, well, that's how God
looks. And there are some fairlysophisticated arguments to that,
(23:22):
to that end, that we actuallythe material of our body and our
appearance, this is what Godlooks like. But I don't think
that's the idea. Here. You haveinstead we're not made in God's
image. This is this is the bigone, you are God's image. And
it's funny that you know, theGreek word here when this gets
translated into Greek is i iconwhere we get the word the idea
(23:45):
of an icon that we are, we areas a huge humanity as a whole
individuals within humanity areGod's image. There's no idolatry
allowed in Israel, because whatcould you make that's like God,
idols are dead? Would thatrepresent a god far off? But
(24:05):
humanity, the living, breathing,creative, relational creature,
known as a human being, is animage of God, it's alive, it's
animated, it's so what could youcreate out of something dead,
that would do any justice to theto the Creator God, so that the
image, it is really important,and even though you know, you
(24:30):
can open the curtains and lookout your window, and see that
whatever humanity is today, itsurely doesn't seem divine. My
attention isn't calledheavenward when I look at the
human population. But despitethat reality we learned in
Genesis nine well after humanshave involved themselves in a
(24:51):
rebellion that humans continueto carry the divine divine
image. So what it means to be animage bearer I think in an
ancient, ancient culturalreading of this text, there are
all kinds of theologicalexplanations. We can reason we
can worship, we can feel, andthose are all perfectly true.
(25:13):
But I think the text tells usexactly what it means to be an
image bear insofar as it goes onto say immediately after, and
they shall rule. So this is bigGenesis, chapter one isn't
setting forth, a scientificdescription of our material
nature, right? It's insteadsetting forth what a person a
(25:36):
human is for. Right? It's afunctional understanding, it's
the role just like the sun, youknow, the sun is created after
light. And its emphasis is notthat the sun is a big ball of
burning gas, however, manymillions of miles away, but that
it's a ruler, it rules over theday and night, it's a functional
(25:56):
understanding of the sun. And Ithink the same as for human
beings. Genesis wants to tellyou that humans are, what
they're for what they do, whothey are not so much about their
biology. So we're created inthat sense to rule creation.
Now, what that means is anotherlayer down into the caverns, but
(26:18):
that that's the, that's where Ithink you got to begin from.
Corina Espejo (26:22):
So Jason, if you're saying, when we look at
this to be an image bear, it'sabout looking at God and His
divine and really what he does,right as a ruler and giving us a
part of who he is to rule andsubdue, to be fruitful and
multiply, walk us through how wecan maybe start to pick apart
what that means and look like.
Is it just about having babies?
(26:44):
Or is it something more?
Jason Alexander (26:46):
Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know,
if this is a description ofhumanity as a whole, not just
looking at individuals, but alarger point about the human
population, then I don't I don'tthink you need to say that this
is some kind of command thatevery single individual has
(27:07):
offspring, that that wouldn'tmake sense that the idea is that
humanity as a whole would, wouldfill in subdue the earth. And in
fact, you're going to find as amajor theme in Genesis,
Baroness, infertility andcomplicated stories, complicated
pregnancies, stories aboutcomplicated pregnancies. So it
(27:28):
would be a stretch to say thatthis is a command that everyone
has as children. Certainly theblessing of verse 28, does have
to do I think with a fertilityand you see something similar
with God blesses the the animalsto be fertile into populate, but
what it means to be fruitful andto multiply, it does go beyond
(27:52):
just having children. And infact, and we could look this up
if you want, so I don't knowexactly which verses But Joe,
Jacob, near the end of his lifeis told to be fruitful and
multiply. And he's well beyondthe years of having any more
kids. So but he's told, Jacob istold, Be fruitful and multiply,
and he goes on to have no morechildren. So either the blessing
(28:17):
didn't work in the case of Jacobor what it means to be fruitful
and multiply is something deeperand larger than just individuals
getting pregnant. But it doeshave to do with that. I mean,
it'd be short sighted tooverlook that dimension here
because I think Genesis wants usto see the heavily populated
(28:39):
cities and worlds which is allGod's plan and design, to be
connected to a blessing thatflows from from him. Our
ability, our generative powercomes from him
Travis Albritton (28:51):
that scripture reference Genesis 35, verse 11,
that sounds right. Yeah. Gooddeal. Thank you.
Corina Espejo (28:57):
I love this. So and if I'm hearing this
correctly, if I'm really takingwhat you're saying, Look at
Genesis as Okay, big picture sothat I how's it gonna apply to
me? There's something here Ifeel inspired when I hear this
to not just say, Okay, what do Ineed to do in that productivity
mindset, but who do I need tobe? It'll take me back. Okay,
(29:17):
wait a minute, wait a minute.
Who is this God, whether we'relooking at it from that
theological, the Trinity, oreven that grammatical self
deliberation, even that culturalheavenly assemblies? I think
what I'm thinking is, Who isGod? This is going to kind of
propel me to wonder when I lookat from Old Testament and New
Testament, I'm going to wonder,how do I be like God and how I
rule? How do I be like God andfruitful and multiply and we are
(29:41):
going to see sometimes that doesmean making beautiful little
babies or adopting beautifullittle babies or anything of the
like, and sometimes it's goingto mean so much more than that.
And bringing in the foreignerand letting them be a part of
God's multiplication of being aruler and an image bearer does
that Is that am I on track here?
Jason Alexander (30:01):
Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I think that's
the, that's the idea here isthat this is, you know, you can
get lost in all of the, you knowthe controversy and arguments
about this text and miss thetheological import, you miss
what you're describing thattaking up that call that, that
(30:22):
summons to go wrestle andgrapple with the beauty of
humanity. And ultimately, humansare created for noble purposes,
God's God's purposes, we arehis, his image, and nothing can
(30:42):
rob humanity of that vocation,that calling that that essence
is really, really amazing. Theidea that we rule, some imagine
that, well, the Earth is ours,and God gave it to us to rule
and to do with what we want. Andthat can result in treating
God's good world and the peoplethat inhabit it like garbage or
(31:05):
the wildlife that inhabits it.
And so whatever ruling insubduing means, insofar as we're
God's image, it's connected towhat kind of ruler, Governor God
Himself is, which so far inGenesis chapter one, we have no
reason to believe he's not athoroughly gentle, loving,
(31:27):
concerned with others kind ofGod. And so to not wrestle with
the picture of God would be tomaybe get your application, I
hate to reduce it to justapplication that's not big
enough, but what you do with it,if you could get it wrong.
Travis Albritton (31:48):
So there's a couple more things I want to
walk through in this particularpassage. The first one is the
word translated as mankind.
Yeah. Yes. Actually. A DOM,right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Late, who later shows up as a inthe story, an individual
character, right. So what arethe different ways that that
word a DOM is translated? Andhow do we know? As we're reading
(32:11):
the story that like, Okay, thisis mankind, like all of
humankind, this is now menspecifically like male gender.
And then this is now individualperson, help us parse through
that and how you would knowwhat, like how to read yourself
into the story. Yeah.
Jason Alexander (32:31):
Okay. Well, and let me just start off by saying,
The, there's more discussionhere by people much smarter than
me. So, you know, this is thisis another thing that would be
involved. But yeah, the questionis, at what point in Genesis
does a dumb move from like anoun to a proper noun, right to
(32:55):
a name, when is the first timeand in context is going to play
a role in that, but the word ofdumb means humanity, and it's,
it's fairly sophisticated, itsconnection to aldemar, that, you
know, the, the ground. Sothere's all kinds of discussions
there. But you want to see adumb in these verses as humanity
(33:20):
because it's then later parsedout and described as something
that's male and female. So itwouldn't make much sense to say
that the man is male and female,it's fitting if at the end of
Genesis chapter three, when thewoman is given her name by the
(33:41):
man, and her name is cover. Andthat means probably life is the
idea she her name means life.
And the man's name is a DOM,which is connected to ground. So
you have I mean, if we were totranslate a DOM and Cava, we'd
get ground and life, which isexactly what they're the stories
(34:05):
describe that a DOM is made fromthe ground, and then a woman
comes from a dumb, so it's notyet, man, because it's described
here as male and female.
Corina Espejo (34:20):
So just to clarify that we're really just
talking about the verses that wejust read Genesis 126 31, it
does flip later, but we're notthere yet. So when I read this,
as a woman, I can still feelconfident, I want to look
towards God as my image bear.
Travis Albritton (34:35):
So before we move to Genesis to one more
observation, that that I want tomake and I'll get your thoughts
on Jason, this identity as animage bearer is given to
mankind, male and female. Itactually goes so far as saying,
both Yeah, men and women forsure. And then both men and
women are given theresponsibility to rule and
(34:59):
subdue Be fruitful and multiplyand go. So it's not males rule
and subdue. Then because you gotto have two to tango men and
women told you to be fruitfulmultiply. Both men and women are
called to rule and subdue. Whatwould that have meant to an
ancient audience to hear that?
Yeah, view of women?
Jason Alexander (35:20):
Well, I don't know exactly how everyone around
is real in those days would haveconstrued women as the image of
the Divine. But this certainlyhas a high view of humanity as a
whole men and women, Genesis isnot discriminating here, there
(35:41):
isn't. There isn't hierarchyhere within humanity. There
isn't here any indication thatone of the things that the image
bear is to rule in subdue isanother image bearer that would
be reading into this, theseverses something that's not
(36:01):
there, that you you want tofind. This is again, part of
that, being humble. And as muchas is possible, taking the text
as it sits before us. And doingthe hard work of reading and
translating and reading aboutthe ancient world. Thankfully,
there are people that's donethat for us, so we can just read
their stuff. But the idea that aman would rule over a woman,
(36:25):
it's not here, look elsewhere,
Corina Espejo (36:27):
this is great. If your head is spinning, and
you're like this goes againsteverything I've ever heard or
learned. Listen, we're We loveyou. We're praying for you.
We're right there with you.
Let's keep going. As we'rediving a little bit more into
this. And again, if you're likethis is blowing my mind, Hey,
man, we're so excited to blowyour mind. We are excited for
(36:47):
your study and your Bible study.
So let's keep tracking Genesis218 to 24. Let's start talking a
little bit about this passage.
And we're going to keep comingback to what is God's intent in
creating men and women tofulfill the role of image
bearers. But let's keep goingGenesis 218, to 24. And if
you're reading in a bunch ofdifferent translations, or
(37:10):
versions, great, I'm reading anNLT. So starting in verse 18, of
chapter two, it says, Then theLord God said, It is not good
for the man to be alone, I willmake a helper who is just right
for him. So the Lord God formedfrom the ground all the wild
animals and all the birds to thesky, he brought them to the man
to see what he could call them.
(37:32):
And the man chose a name foreach one. He gave names to all
the livestock, all the birds ofthe sky, and all the wild
animals, but still, there was nohelper just right for him. So
the Lord God caused the man tofall into a deep sleep. While
the man slept, the Lord God tookout one of the man's ribs and
close up the opening. Then theLord God made a woman from the
rib, and he brought her to theman. At last hit, the man
(37:55):
exclaimed, this one is born frommy bone and flesh from my flesh.
She shall be called woman,because she was taken from man.
This explains why a man leaveshis father and mother and is
joined to his wife and the twoare united into one.
Travis Albritton (38:09):
Alright, so Jason right off the bat again,
we're just going to jumpstraight into the straight into
the fire. Yeah. helper. Yeah.
Walk us through this word.
helper. Suitable help, mate?
Yeah, yeah. Her personalassistant? Yeah, Secretary.
Yeah, right. There's a littlethere's a little sarcasm going
on. Yeah,
Jason Alexander (38:30):
no, I don't mean to be sarcastic. No. So
listen, that, but this is thisis an important discussion. And
again, it's hard for me to talkabout this without panning out
just a bit because the questionfor me has always been help with
what help to do what like, what,what's the idea what what
(38:51):
exactly does he need help withis that he needs help. Like,
he's got things to do. And he'sa busy, busy guy. And so he
needs help. And so I think thatsetting of why help is required
can be important to thisdiscussion. And again, remember
Genesis chapter one, I think youwalk away with when you do
(39:13):
business with ancient setting,you read not just Genesis, but
more of the of the Scriptures,you notice that? Genesis one
really sets us on a trajectoryfor understanding the whole
narrative of Scripture, ascontroversial the narrative, you
know, it's not it's notnecessarily a clean, direct line
(39:35):
all the way from beginning toend. But there is a story being
told throughout Scripture andGenesis tells us that God
created a very good and good iskey in Genesis one not perfect
world, but its perfection or itsits goal. Its tell us that the
(39:55):
thing for which God created allthings humans play a role. That
and human beings, that's God'splan to take creation from a the
good creation from A to its nextgood place B and C and so on
humans are involved. They're cocreators. They're the image of
God. They work with him and forHis glory, and they themselves
(40:19):
radiate out the glory and wisdomand kindness of the Creator. The
humans play a role that where isGod. And that story will he's,
if I'm reading it right, andwe'll definitely see this in
Genesis chapter two and three,he's there. He's not off in the
distant, whatever the azureblue, looking down from heaven,
(40:41):
but God Himself intends to takeup residence. And so heaven and
earth are one, one reality increation. And so humans have a
role. Genesis, chapter 126, to28 gives us the function of
humanity, and they play a rolein God's good world. Genesis
chapter two will give moreattention to the creation of
(41:04):
humanity. But it also portrayscreation in very temple like
terms. Or maybe you could say,the stories about the temple
later in the Hebrew Bible, or inthe stories of the tabernacle,
describe the tabernacle in thetemple in creation terms. And so
everything about Eden remindsone of the temple, the very
(41:26):
presence of God, from the watersflowing out from the this kind
of hub of creation in Eden, tothe gold there in the idea is
it's because God is there, andyou almost want to look at this
Eden, and its garden as theplace from which the world jumps
(41:48):
off. It's the the lifespring arethe wellspring of all creation,
that's the image of the watersflowing out, and that that is
seen throughout, think ofZechariah 14, Psalm 36, john,
for john seven, zekiel 4017.
It's all over Hebrew Scripture,that rivers of life flowing from
where the God lives. And sowe're, whereas Genesis one shows
(42:14):
humans as these Royals, sort ofruling images of God, Genesis
two portrays the humans in thegarden, like the garden adjacent
to the temple, as these verypriestly figures and their role.
And again, in Genesis two, it isinterested in their role
humanity is created to work andkeep the garden and that
(42:38):
language is used by the for thepriests in the tabernacle, and
they work in keep the worshipgoing in the tent. So humans are
portrayed in Genesis chaptertwo, as priestly figures who
have a role, they're not justcreated, and Okay, enjoy
yourself, you know, like, dowhat you'd like find a career
(43:01):
path, find a purpose, that Imean, all of that's a part of
it, but they play a larger roleof stewarding this garden. And I
think the idea is that theywould with each generation sort
of push back the boundaries ofEden creation, the creation
project begins here with thesepeople. So if you've established
(43:23):
that kind of context, now you'rein a place to ask for help for
what, and it's that it's, it'sthat the gendered pair of man
and woman is is made, and she'sa helper, because he needs help.
He is not self sufficient. Andhe needs help specifically, to
(43:47):
keep and work the garden. And heneeds a kind of help that is
corresponding to him not. TheHebrew here is notoriously
obscure. I don't know ifobscures the word but it's
difficult, a helper and thenthere's three prepositions in a
role as before him, What in theworld do you do with that? But
(44:10):
the idea, I think, iscorresponding it's like
everything that he isn't maybe,but he needs that other side of
humanity to steward this garden.
And I don't even think here, I'dwant to jump immediately to what
he needs her for procreation,that's certainly true. And
(44:30):
that's going to show up in theseverses. But But first and
foremost, Genesis two opens withnow the earth was kind of like
Genesis chapter one, the earthwas barren and there was no rain
and there was aspring that welled up from the
ground and there was no one totake care of the earth and so
God made a dumb, but a DOMwasn't sufficient. More help was
needed to really move creationforward. That's the setting in
(44:54):
which a woman is is made. Sojust like Genesis one where the
woman or where the humanity iscreated as a culmination of the
creation project. Same thinghere. The woman is the last
thing in the world is built inHebrew. The woman is built from
the man, which is prettyawesome. But she's built from
(45:16):
this animate living being. Andshe she's kind of the crown
jewel of the Genesis chaptertwo. Now we're in a position to
move forward. So just Thoreaudignity for both men and woman
in these passages. There is noindication here that she is his
personal assistant, and thathe's got plans and she'll be
(45:39):
right alongside him to quietlyimplement his ideas that that's
not the idea. They are cokeepers, tillers of the garden,
there's nothing about the wordhelp, that indicates
subordination. In fact, the Helpis usually a deliverer. And, to
our surprise, help is used ofGod. Often it's, it's a, it's a
(46:02):
common way of praying to God andthe Psalms be my help. They're
not saying be my subordinate.
That's not the idea. So helpwould actually imply that you
need help. You're in need, notthe helper. So this is a really
(46:24):
beautiful picture of COcreators, no indication of one
ruling over the other not yet.
That's going to come, but it'snot here.
Corina Espejo (46:32):
So I love what you said, Jason, when you're
thinking, Okay, wait a minute,go back to the beginning of
Genesis two. And how we can'treally I know, unfortunately, in
this podcast, we're isolatingthese passages, but we cannot,
especially when you think about,you know why this book was
written? Who was written to thestyle that it was written in
that what comes before thesepassages actually does tell us a
(46:54):
lot about what we're actuallyreading. I actually love I'm so
curious to hear Travis explainthis to me. And I actually
really enjoyed the way heexplained because, you know, he
brought up this concept ofwhat's what's the deal with the
parade of animals before Adam?
And I'm really I like the wayTravis explains it. I'm curious
to hear your thoughts on it.
Travis, do you want to? I'd loveto hear you say that again.
Travis Albritton (47:15):
If you just read it, it reads as if God
doesn't really know what theanswer is. Right? It's like,
okay, I made man. He's not up tothe task. So let's just see if
we can create some kind of allstar team here. out into the
world. Let's see if dogs areready to be man's best friend.
Has this like parade of animals?
Like, yeah, so you can you canread it as like God shooting
(47:36):
from the hip, trying to figuresomething out. You can also read
it from the perspective of Godis doing this for on Adams
behalf. Yeah. So when hearrives, at the end, waking up
and seeing he Shah, is there,yeah, that he recognizes what
makes her different. And then itcould also simply be actually
(47:59):
setting up Genesis three, wherewe now have this serpent figure,
who would have been a part ofthis parade of animals, and is
like, what the heck, I'm thecraftiest. Animal here. Why was
I not chosen? To be fair? Right?
Yeah, totally. Yeah. So So whatis what is your take on? Why
(48:21):
that aside, is there or, or howit plays into this idea of
understanding the significanceof that situation? Isha?
Jason Alexander (48:28):
I love the way you describe it as a parade?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm moreagnostic with with those verses,
because I'm not exactly I'm notexactly sure. Yeah, the the the
idea that humans are cocreators, you see at work, then
God kind of honoring thatvocation of like, let's see,
see, this is why I made you forso you know, let's go let's,
let's see, I you do this, andthe text doesn't specify is
(48:53):
looking for a help? Well, itdoesn't. It doesn't specify that
this thing is the search. We'retold he doesn't have a helper.
And then there's then there'sthis, specifically naming the
creatures so that that's anindication of his authority, I
think at least, but I like theidea of God playfully involving
(49:18):
the human in the next step,arriving. I think that's as long
as you don't think thatprocreation is part of the help
because of procreation ends upbeing part of the help you have
something blasphemous in theHebrew Bible. I mean, that no
way would God offer animals as asexual counterpart. So that
(49:40):
would be the one challenge ifyou if you imply in help
procreative or generativeability, but it almost feels
like a sidebar, where it's likeI heard one person describe it
as literarily building suspense,which is kind of what you were
saying. Leading us along to Oh,the woman The surprise crown
(50:01):
jewel right of the createdworld? I don't know. Yeah, I
don't know. I've went throughthat quite a bit. And I kind of
gave up. Because it's there. Imean, it's there. It's part of
the project, but I don't I don'tknow. Sorry.
Corina Espejo (50:14):
Good. No, this gives me hope that like, I don't
have to an immediate answer. I'mnot a failure as a leader when
this is good. Jason exactAlexander doesn't have the
answer. I feel Oh, no. It's nota surprise. Good. This is
exciting. So let's jump into oneof my favorite words. And I
(50:35):
think in studying this word out,I'm still learning so much about
it. But let's try and cover somesome groundwork. We're looking
at this aser word helper, isaser. a feminine characteristic?
Are we looking at this andsaying this is for female?
Jason Alexander (50:51):
No, it's not. I mean, in terms of Genesis,
chapter two, it will turn outthat the Help is a woman. But
that is not to portray her assubordinate, rather, as a
counterpart or almost like adelivering Adam from his
(51:13):
helplessness or his singlehandedness. He'll need more than
what he is. And so she is thereto help him out. Again, not his
personal assistant. And help isnot a term used for females
alone. It's not Yeah, it's it'snot designated for females. I
(51:35):
mean, it's used to describedeliver of some kind. They're
helping us out. It's a it's a,it's a good idea. It's not, it's
not to imply subordination. Andof course, the fact that God is
described as Israel's help wouldsuggest that I mean, when, when
Israel calls on the Lord to betheir help, they're not saying
(52:00):
be my assistant, that that makeszero sense. So there's nothing
inherent in the word to applythat she's lessor, or an
afterthought, or anything likethat.
Corina Espejo (52:15):
And I think the first time and again, if your
mind is blown, you're in goodcompany, because that for the
longest time I know I said,Acer, Acer Connect. Oh, that
means that females are a helperand even as we're talking about,
okay, hierarchy andsubordination. That is going to
mean a lot of these words meanso many different things to so
many different people. I knowgrowing up, I'll be honest, it
(52:38):
was like besotted bad word.
You're, you're a quote unquote,subordinate. You're lower in the
hierarchy you are only designedfor. And people think what's
wrong with that, right? And thenother people hear that word, and
they're going to feel sobelittled, devalued, and fear.
And you're going to have thiswide range, even with us talking
in English as Americans. Like,we're going to have such a wide
(52:59):
response to even these words. Mytakeaway, though, when I
realized aser, was not meant todefine females, it was meant to
describe how we as humanity, weweren't meant to be alone, as we
accomplished, God's designed forus to rule to be good stewards
to use that word steward. I lovethat word to take care of and
(53:20):
manage something that God hasgiven us that we're really
ruling something that wasentrusted to us. Right, right.
And I love that because it was,it took some of these cultural
connotations out of it andbrought me again, back to God,
back to Elohim. I'm not hearingaser and thinking female, that's
what I am. I am aser. Right,right. But I'm thinking I am
(53:43):
God's creation. I am meant to belike him, as he delivers us,
helps us and vice versa. Is thatYeah,
Jason Alexander (53:52):
yeah, there's nothing here that would imply
the male is the boss and thefemales, the Assistant that just
doesn't, it's it's not here.
Now, again, that is going tocome up in the biblical vision
of gender is, it's prettyamazing, I think. But when we
get to a point where we'retalking about submission and
concern and reverence andgentleness toward one another,
(54:17):
imagining a future, that's notthe current situation. We're not
talking about a kind of built inhierarchy into creation. There's
almost like you could think ofit as an undoing of something
that's went horribly wrong increation. So, I mean, this is
(54:38):
this again, this is the biblicalvision of society as a takeaway,
the biblical vision of humanityis there isn't hierarchy. And
that's, that's, I think, in theancient world, but even today,
that's revolutionary. There arethere is no system stratified
society here, humans are imagebearers of God, and they have a
(55:04):
vocation, men and women, when weget to the Apostle Paul, which
I'm grateful that you have, thatI don't have to guide you
through that. Leave that tosomeone better than me, this
will come up there. But here inGenesis, also, I should mention
that she that she came after theman also should not imply to a
(55:25):
subordination, there's adiscussion about priority of, of
creation, or firstborn birthrights in the book of Genesis.
It's there, the firstborn beingthe inheritance, inheriting the
blessing. But what's so amazingin Genesis is that cultural
assumption is always undercut byI mean, even right in the very
(55:47):
next chapter is after thecreation story with Cain and
Abel, I mean, this the secondborn is being favored. And that
just carries on where thefirstborn isn't held in such
high esteem as the surroundingculture might have imagined. So
I think we want to be careful tojump to from Genesis, we get to
Paul, there's a more complicateddiscussion that has to take
(56:11):
place. But But here, nothing sofar has revealed to us in
Genesis one or two, that thewoman is a lesser or subordinate
creature, and that it's notGod's designed intent that that
is the case nothing here thatwould imply that and I my
reading, and I come at that froma, let me just say the words
(56:32):
that hopefully people are tiredof hearing, but they're
important that Genesis chaptersone and two are deeply
complementarian. Like, in thebest sense of that word, man and
woman complement each other inGod's will. And it is deeply
egalitarian or mutual. They arenot over one another. The
(56:59):
polarizing effect of thisdiscussion is very unfortunate,
where the church is shoehornedinto this discussion, pick a
side, it's like anything else inour society, pick a side, and
you just can't. And it's a shamethat that language has been
hijacked, and has come to meanvery technical meanings, because
(57:21):
the text itself portrayscomplimentary mutual beings. And
those aren't dirty words thatyou know, those on one side
think the other side, it's asinful use of language, but it's
not it's right there. So it willdo no good to say I'm a
mutualist, or I'm acomplementarian. Like, then
you're not dealing with thewhole of this portrayal of
(57:44):
humanity.
Travis Albritton (57:46):
Kareena and I are laughing because in the last
episode, we were like, We willnot use those terms, because
they're not helpful.
Jason Alexander (57:52):
They're not unfortunately, they're not.
Yeah, I mean, and that's thething, that's why I've not used
them, because, you know, I I'dlike to redeem them, but it's
like rodini retrying to redeemliberal and conservative. I
mean, they're, they're, they'realready freighted. And it'll
take a long time to unpack that,you know, carrier, it's so it's
almost like, it's unfortunate,you have to go a different
(58:14):
route. And then it gets moreconfusing, because it's like,
well, what do you mean, you'reintroducing a crazy idea?
Corina Espejo (58:19):
So technical and so inconsistent? Yeah, right.
Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. Ilove this, I love as we're
really just looking at what's infront of us doing really great
exegetical reading of Scripture,not trying to pull in everything
we know, experienced, but justlooking at Genesis 126 31,
Genesis 218, to 24. So forexample, we're talking about
(58:43):
creation order, and doesn'tmatter. Well, according to these
two passages, we're not readingthat here. And so we can't pull
from what's not there. So aswe're looking at all these
things, we really want toencourage you read from what's
in front of you pull from whatis there, read in context, all
of Genesis one to two, on tothree. And let's just talk about
(59:06):
our takeaways for today, ifwe're just trying to stay, you
know, sit within the pockethere, okay? We're reading our
identity is first and foremostas image bearers of God, both
men and women as a DOM ashumanity. All of us get to
continue to look to God tofigure out how to rule, how to
subdue, how to be fruitful, andhow to multiply, right. And then
(59:28):
looking at it, again, justGenesis one and two, those of
you who are already lookingahead, stick with us here, stick
within the pocket. There's nohierarchy suggested here. And
depending on what you think thatmeans, again, look back to
Scripture and see, there's noone above the other in terms of
we're all equal before God, andwe all complement each other.
(59:50):
And that's a part of ourcommission, if you will, to rule
and subdue, to be fruitful,multiply together as co workers
and then We're all called to beAcer's to one another to, again,
and the scripture that I thoughtabout was second Corinthians
three, I love this. But wheneverit's an inverse 16 but whenever
(01:00:11):
someone turns to the Lord, theveil is taken away, for the Lord
is the spirit and wherever theSpirit of the Lord is, there is
freedom. So all of us who havehad that veil removed, can see
and reflect the glory of theLord. And the Lord Who is the
spirit makes us more and morelike Him, as we are changed, and
to his glorious image. And so weall get to move from glory to
(01:00:32):
glory to be like that God, whois that aser who is that helper
and and humility help eachother. Right? That's a part of
the beauty of being a humanbeing.
Travis Albritton (01:00:43):
If you want to get the study guide for this
episode, you can go to womenchurch, podcast comm, you can
sign up for that newsletter, andyou'll get that study guide and
in addition to all the otherstudy guides who put out to help
you with this podcast, and alsoget to get notified about new
episodes, but we look forward tohaving you back next week, when
Jason's gonna come back and helpus work through Genesis three
(01:01:04):
and make sense of what is goingon in that story and why it's
relevant to the question we haveabout what does the Bible say
about women in the church?
Welcome to the women in church podcast where we
take a fresh look at what theBible teaches about women in
church, for the ICRC, I amTravis Albritton. Joining me as
always is Corina spay Whoa,
Corina Espejo (00:13):
Hello again,
Travis Albritton (00:15):
man's. For this episode, we also have
another guest, Jason Alexander,welcome to the podcast. Yes,
thank you. super exciting. Sofor anyone who's listening who
isn't familiar with you, justgive us kind of a quick, one
minute auto biography of who youare how you serve within the
ICSC. And then your yourScholastic academic background
(00:38):
as well when it comes to Biblestudy.
Jason Alexander (00:39):
Yeah, it's pretty, pretty amazing. So,
yeah, I'm a Midwesterner fromIllinois, but most of my life in
Wisconsin, d minus student inhigh school. So it took me a
while to figure out what I'minterested in. I went back to
school in my early 20s, and fellin love with reading, reading
(01:06):
Semitic languages, and it justso happened there was a kind of
a top flight department in mybackyard in Madison. So yeah, I
I joined and spent a lot of timeand money there and made it out
alive. intact. So yeah, so I'musing that as a as a way to
(01:30):
think through the Bible and howChristians are interacting
specifically with the OldTestament.
Travis Albritton (01:38):
Well, and you also when you were serving in
the ministry in the Midwest, youwere part of the the teachers
group, the teaching group there.
Jason Alexander (01:45):
Yep. I'm still affiliated, even though I live
on the other side of the mapnow. But yeah, I still I still
like up with those guys. Yeah,the teachers in Midwest. Okay,
let's see the title now is theMidwest, teachers circle, which
sounds very exclusive. But theylet me in so it obviously isn't.
Travis Albritton (02:08):
It sounds like little Knights of the Round
Table. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Yep. And then what is the churchthat you're serving in right now
with your wife,
Jason Alexander (02:13):
it is the South sound Church of Christ, which is
a, a church, in three regions,near and around the Puget Sound?
Travis Albritton (02:23):
Well, Jason, we're glad to have you with us.
So today, in this episode, we'regonna be tackling Genesis
chapter one, and chapter two,specifically, with kind of the
perspective the filter of whatdoes the Bible have to say about
men and women in the church andtheir interactions with each
other. And it is important tostart in the book of Genesis,
(02:44):
because it's the beginning ofthe story that God has given us.
And it is very often referencedthroughout the rest of the
Bible, when it comes to thisquestion.
Corina Espejo (02:54):
So what is the backdrop for the creation story
in the book of Genesis?
Jason Alexander (02:59):
Oh, yeah. Well, this is a. And my guess is that
all of these questions will befairly involved with this. This
is certainly one of them. One ofthe more complicated, maybe even
controversial questions, Ithink, it's helpful to recognize
(03:19):
that Israel has a, what you'dcall a shared cognitive setting
with her neighbors, it's AncientNear East, other side of the
world, they write from the otherside of the page. So it seems
through reading creation, mythcreation accounts, from Israel's
(03:43):
neighbors, that they thoughtabout things in very similar
way. Now, that's not to say thatGenesis chapter one or two was
written to necessarily arguewith or, or even is in dialogue
with those stories. But But youdo detect a similar cosmology or
(04:05):
way of understanding the createdworld. So at the very least,
Genesis is meant to guide wellnow the people of faith, but
certainly Israel into a deeperunderstanding of their own
identity and the God with whomthey have to do but I think
(04:26):
first and foremost, that's animportant question that the
backdrop is important because itcomes out of lace far away and
long ago. So that that's that'sbig. When you set out to read
something like Genesis. glossingover that reality will land you
in all kinds ofmisunderstandings, I think,
(04:48):
sometimes, oftentimes,especially with Genesis, the
creation, parts of Genesis.
There's abuse, I think, becausethat that fact isn't
acknowledged
Corina Espejo (04:59):
and so If what you're saying why Genesis was
written it was for Israel, sothat they can understand and be
guided by their identity andorigins and God the Creator. Is
there something to maybe whyGenesis was Witten written in
the literary style that it was?
Do you think?
Jason Alexander (05:16):
Oh, yeah, you're just going deeper into
the complexity? Yeah. It'sinteresting. Um, you almost we,
you know, he's saying thingslike, how was Genesis written,
you almost want to put quotesaround written because you
imagine who's a popular author,Jane Austen, or something like
(05:39):
that sitting down at hertypewriter or her Mac Book,
opening it up in and hammeringout a book. Genesis certainly
does not sit before us by way ofthat kind of process, Genesis,
even within the text itself. Andyou can notice this, and
certainly notice in Hebrew, butyou notice in English as well,
that there are editors at work,bringing together key ideas that
(06:04):
will inform people of Israel'sGod and their origins. So why
it's a specific way. I thinkit's part and parcel with the
agenda. So for example, why doesGenesis chapter one sit in a
seven day scheme of creation,right. And this is a hot Hot
(06:28):
Topic among those who care aboutthese things. But doing more
intertextual study of the HebrewBible, looking at other creation
stories around Israel, again, weget an insight that seven has
much to do with the idea of thetemple, or the place where a
deity resides. And so, it seemsclear to me though, this this is
(06:53):
argued against by by some, thatGenesis one is is written to
talk to us about God creatingand then coming to the, in the
language of Genesis two, onethrough three to rest in, in
creation to take up to inhabitto take up a residence in
(07:15):
creation. That would be a a wayof explaining the literary
structure of say Genesis chapterone, it's it's meant to talk to
us about the world as a placewhere God takes up residence.
And there's all kinds of reallyinteresting ways that that bears
itself out in both Genesis Oneand two, three.
Corina Espejo (07:38):
I love your humility, by the way, and your
honesty and even justtransparency to say like that
some of these things are evendebated amidst you know, and so
I love that because it's goodfor us to hear not everybody
agrees, even on some of thesedays, but
Jason Alexander (07:52):
Genesis has a way of upsetting or our
certitudes, you know, we thinkwe've grasped everything that's
going on there. And more timesthan not, I noticed that people
have missed altogether, some ofthe key ideas. And again, that's
not because it's impossible toread. That's I'm not trying to
make Genesis seem so complicatedthat you know, only if you only
(08:17):
if you spend the rest of yourlife studying it. It'll make
sense. That's not my point. Butit's, it's having a, you're
right, I am very humble. That'sthat's a good point. It's having
a hug. Just kidding. It's havinga humility, to approach it as
somewhat foreign. And I thinkwhen you do that, especially for
(08:38):
new readers of Genesis, you'reheading them off at the past and
potentially preventing crises offaith because all of the sudden,
a careful reading might notallow the reigning ideas about
Genesis to fit. Yeah,
Travis Albritton (08:57):
so all those things, Jason, you just talked
about phenomenal. I want to drawsome connections to stuff we
talked in the last episode aboutas far as how to read the Bible.
So when Jason's talking aboutlike, the writers, or the
editors having an agenda, that'swhat we call it, the occasional
situational nature of Scripture,there was a reason it was
written, that it was writtenfrom a group to a group, right?
(09:21):
And also that there are culturalunderpinnings to this
conversation. That's the wordingthat we use in the last episode.
Good. And so so when we look atthe story of Genesis, just
recognize, you know, it wasn'tjust a group of, you know,
Jewish scholars saying, Let'scapture the story of God
creating and how that relates tous. It was also in response to
(09:47):
other creation myths that werein civilizations around them.
Yeah, not just to say, you know,point by point our God is
better, but to communicate whythe God that they serve is
radically different the way thathe relates to him, then the gods
around them. Oh, that's verytrue.
Jason Alexander (10:05):
The other thing that's been surprising to me
over the years and the more Iencounter this, the more it
takes my breath away is like anywonderful piece of art, Genesis,
Genesis is assembled, written,edited, whatever redacted by
resilient folk, you know, they,they have told a story, not only
(10:26):
with their words and theirvocabulary, and, you know,
sentence structure or somethinglike that, but but also the very
the form of the text, right?
It's so much is intentional, tothe point that you almost think
that can't be that can't be thecase that's too detailed, but
more times than not, no, theythey're thinking at a register,
(10:47):
just above where we tend to readand approach texts. So
Travis Albritton (10:53):
if you're listening to this, and you're
like, wow, there's a lots ofGenesis I didn't know about.
Douglas Jacoby co wrote a bookcalled origins which digs into
the first 11 chapters ofGenesis, you can pick it up on
Amazon or at his website, andwe'll leave a link to that in
the show notes and also on ourresource list. So if you want to
get into more like the scholarlybackdrop of Genesis and the
cultural context and things likethat, that book goes really
(11:14):
super in depth of a Corina?
Yeah. Why don't you hop us rightinto our first scripture reading
for the day?
Corina Espejo (11:21):
Yeah, yeah. So let's do Genesis 126, to 31.
Then God said, Let us make humanbeings in our image to be like
us, they will reign over thefish in the sea, the birds in
the sky, the livestock, all thewild animals on the earth, and
the small animals that scurryalong the ground. So God created
human beings in His own image inthe image of God, He created
(11:42):
them, male and female, hecreated them, then God bless
them and said, Be fruitful, andmultiply fill the earth and
governent rain over the fish inthe sea, the birds in the sky,
and all the animals that scurryalong the ground. Then God said,
Look, I have given you everyseed bearing plant throughout
the earth, and all the fruittrees for your food. And I have
given every green plant as foodfor all the wild animals, the
(12:04):
birds in the sky, and the smallanimals that scurry along the
ground, everything that haslife, and that is what happened
first 31 then God looked overall he had made, and he saw that
it was very good. And eveningpassed and morning came marking
the sixth day. That was Genesis126 31 nlt. Version.
Travis Albritton (12:22):
Perfect. So first opportunity for a
misreading here. So right offthe bat, verse 26. God said, Let
us write Of course, make mankindthat our image, who is us? Yeah,
let's just clear that reallyquick. Yeah, this point, it's
just been God. Right. And nowall of a sudden, someone else is
(12:42):
there. So walk us through that.
Jason.
Jason Alexander (12:45):
It is jarring.
Genesis is almost scientific, inthe way that it approaches
creation. Everything has itsplace an order. And each is you
know, quote, according to itskind, and it has a fairly
repetitive are a pattern ofdivine speech in creating the
world. And then all of a sudden,there's a there's a break with
(13:06):
that. And this plural cohortative would be the form let us
has just been a Yeah, a sourceof theological reflection, since
Genesis, it seems, has been readand written about so there are
more options for who us is,then. Then it's probably
(13:30):
helpful. The two prominent onesthat I'm familiar with our
reading it backwards, you seethe Trinity. Yeah,
Travis Albritton (13:39):
right. Right.
Right. Or it could be similar tothe beginning of job addressing
the heavily assembly. Right,exactly. Right. Right. Those
those are the two that I'mfamiliar with. Are there other?
Oh,
Jason Alexander (13:52):
yeah. My goodness, people get really
creative with this. Yeah. Andand, you know, they're all in
for good reason. I mean, it isnot, it's not obvious. And
there's no decoder ring. Youknow, it comes with with
Genesis.
Travis Albritton (14:05):
So what are we to make of that? And is it? Is
it relevant? Yeah, to have theprecise answer to understand the
story in our place in it,
Jason Alexander (14:14):
um, it could be relevant depending on how you
understand us, it could havequite an impact on the the
interpretation of what youimagine a human is, because
that's what this is about, youknow, the thing being made in
our, quote, image is a humanbeing some of the other options
(14:36):
and these are these people goback and forth about this one.
Some rabbis have suggested thatit's the earth itself, and that
sounds insane. But there aremoments in the creation server
God is speaking to the earth.
He's talking to the earth as ifit's a living breathing life
giving entity and so some someof suggests that it's the Earth
(14:59):
Angels or some kind of likeangelic Cordier he could be
speaking to and there's there'sevidence of that elsewhere in
the Bible. The Heavenly court isthe one I think I would. I'm
most attracted to. I'll say moreabout that in just a second. But
yeah, the Trinity is anotherone. And I don't, I'm quite sure
(15:21):
those who are reading genesisfor the first time, those to
whom Genesis was written or forwhom Genesis was written, they
wouldn't have grasped the ideaof the Trinity. So I don't know
that I'd want to say, Well, thatwas the author, that that was
what they were thinking was theTrinity. You're right, you have
(15:42):
to do some beginning with Jesusand working through these texts
after an encounter with Jesus.
But substantively, I thinkthat's fine to talk about the
Trinity being present here,because certainly, the New
Testament will say somethingvery similar to that, that Jesus
is intimately involved withcreation. Okay, but here are
(16:04):
some other options real quick,I'll run through, there could be
some kind of vestige ofpolytheism You know, there are
Israel's neighbors believed inand served more than one God.
And so some have suggested,well, this is just cultural
baggage. You know, Israel isancient, like, Mesopotamia. And
so, you know, this just might bethe idea that there are several
(16:28):
gods. Some say it could be theRoyal we have you heard that one
that we're the plural ofmajesty, have you ever used
that? Like, we will be having acoke for dinner, but you're just
referring to yourself?
Travis Albritton (16:41):
Not since I became a disciple.
Jason Alexander (16:44):
That's good.
Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty arrogantway to speak. Yeah. So but
that's many See, see that as apossibility that it's God
speaking in a pluralistic kindof elevated magisterial kind of
speech, the plural of selfdeliberation, which is like
thinking to yourself and somegreat commentaries on Genesis,
(17:06):
go for this route, that God isthinking to himself, let's,
let's make let's make man youknow, let's let's make woman so
it's it's more of a internaldialogue or internal What do you
say internal monologue, I guess,with God, the plural of
exhortation, which is just like,let's, let's see, just using
(17:29):
using the plural, the pluralitywithin the Godhead that you
notice the spirit, you're rightin verse, what does that verse
two. Or it could just be an IT.
Here's a really unexciting one,but just agreement with the
plural word. ello heme, that'sa, we translate ello heme God,
(17:55):
but it's a plural, it's a pluralword. So those are all the major
options, I think, on the tableif you read, but john Walton in
his commentary on Genesis, whichis a fairly easy read, he does
something helpful. He groupsthem into three buckets, like,
let's see, he calls them the youhave theological options. That
(18:20):
would be like the Trinity,Trinity would be the major one
that stands out in my mind, youhave grammatical options, which
is like the Royal plural or theplural of self deliberation. I
think that one's the hardest. Atleast he thinks that's the
hardest to argue for. And thenyou have the cultural bucket,
like explaining the plural byusing cultural backdrop. And
(18:41):
that would be things like yousaid it like using the ancient
Near Eastern idea of a heavenlycourt a lots of elohiym meeting
together with the great Hi,Chief eloheem the Lord, right,
Israel's God is presiding overthis court. And so the cultural
(19:02):
way of getting at this, this usI think, is the most helpful
because like you said, you canlook at other places, Isaiah
chapter six of First Kingschapter 22, there are other
places where you see Godspeaking like this in an
assembly. So I like the idea,some kind of angelic or heavenly
(19:24):
divine being surrounding God inhis creative work. And they too,
are like God in that they arehighly spiritual, powerful
beings. And so, if that's true,then what a human is, is pretty
unique. Because we're talkingabout then the humans not you
(19:48):
know, God isn't conversing withthe ground, but God is
conversing with divine beings.
And humans are like them. It'spretty amazing. Well,
Travis Albritton (20:00):
and regardless of where you land on what us
represents, you can certainlypull that out. Just reading
Genesis one, you notice once youget to day six, this is
different. Yeah, right? This isdifferent than the birds of the
year, the fish of the sea, thebeasts of the earth, and the
plants and the, the greaterlight and lesser light, like
humans are special. Yeah, andso. So let's, let's move to that
(20:25):
little poem within the poem thatwe get in Genesis one, then God
said, Let us make mankind in ourimage in our likeness, so that
they rule over the fish in thesea, and the birds in the sky,
over the livestock and all thewild animals and over all the
creatures that move along theground. So God created mankind
in His own image, in the imageof God, He created them, male
(20:48):
and female, he created them. Sowalk us through, what does it
mean to be an image bearer ofthe Divine? And specifically in
the backdrop in the context ofwhat that would mean, to someone
in ancient Mesopotamia hearingthat language? Yeah.
Jason Alexander (21:09):
Yeah, this is where reading like Babylonian
creation myth, for example,would, would really show how
Israel is unique in the way theythink about humanity. There's
that there's that Psalm, Psalmeight says, What is a human
being, and he answers you, Godhave made them slightly lower
(21:31):
than ello him, and he useslanguage like you've crowned
them, you've made them, you'vefound them with glory. So humans
are esteemed. They're not theproduct of a cosmic battle,
which you have in other creationaccounts in the ancient Near
East where Gods go to war. Andwhen the god bleeds, its blood
(21:53):
mixed with the dirt. And so youhave humanity and humans are
made not in the image of theDivine, but because the gods
themselves have needs and needsservants and slaves. And so
there's a much lower vision ofhumanity. And certainly, the
most generous would would besomething like a human, the
(22:15):
human King is made in the imageof God, but certainly not
everybody. And what Genesis doesis, I think, somewhat
revolutionary, it's still is arevolutionary text, because it's
setting forth humanity as a, youknow, a no caste, no hierarchy
kind of system is ademocratization of divine rule.
(22:36):
And so it's not that one or afew kings or kingdoms rule
creation, but the whole ofhumanity. And I think that's
important here. You know, Godsays, Let us make a dumb, it's
not let us make a male in ourimage, but let's make the whole
of the human population in ourimage, and they will be rulers.
(22:59):
David Klein's, in his articlesays in this is food for
thought. He says, you know, it'snot so much that we are made in
God's image. Because and that'sa good point, God doesn't have
an image, what in the world doesGod look like? And so I guess
you could look at a human beingand say, well, that's how God
looks. And there are some fairlysophisticated arguments to that,
(23:22):
to that end, that we actuallythe material of our body and our
appearance, this is what Godlooks like. But I don't think
that's the idea. Here. You haveinstead we're not made in God's
image. This is this is the bigone, you are God's image. And
it's funny that you know, theGreek word here when this gets
translated into Greek is i iconwhere we get the word the idea
(23:45):
of an icon that we are, we areas a huge humanity as a whole
individuals within humanity areGod's image. There's no idolatry
allowed in Israel, because whatcould you make that's like God,
idols are dead? Would thatrepresent a god far off? But
(24:05):
humanity, the living, breathing,creative, relational creature,
known as a human being, is animage of God, it's alive, it's
animated, it's so what could youcreate out of something dead,
that would do any justice to theto the Creator God, so that the
image, it is really important,and even though you know, you
(24:30):
can open the curtains and lookout your window, and see that
whatever humanity is today, itsurely doesn't seem divine. My
attention isn't calledheavenward when I look at the
human population. But despitethat reality we learned in
Genesis nine well after humanshave involved themselves in a
(24:51):
rebellion that humans continueto carry the divine divine
image. So what it means to be animage bearer I think in an
ancient, ancient culturalreading of this text, there are
all kinds of theologicalexplanations. We can reason we
can worship, we can feel, andthose are all perfectly true.
(25:13):
But I think the text tells usexactly what it means to be an
image bear insofar as it goes onto say immediately after, and
they shall rule. So this is bigGenesis, chapter one isn't
setting forth, a scientificdescription of our material
nature, right? It's insteadsetting forth what a person a
(25:36):
human is for. Right? It's afunctional understanding, it's
the role just like the sun, youknow, the sun is created after
light. And its emphasis is notthat the sun is a big ball of
burning gas, however, manymillions of miles away, but that
it's a ruler, it rules over theday and night, it's a functional
(25:56):
understanding of the sun. And Ithink the same as for human
beings. Genesis wants to tellyou that humans are, what
they're for what they do, whothey are not so much about their
biology. So we're created inthat sense to rule creation.
Now, what that means is anotherlayer down into the caverns, but
(26:18):
that that's the, that's where Ithink you got to begin from.
Corina Espejo (26:22):
So Jason, if you're saying, when we look at
this to be an image bear, it'sabout looking at God and His
divine and really what he does,right as a ruler and giving us a
part of who he is to rule andsubdue, to be fruitful and
multiply, walk us through how wecan maybe start to pick apart
what that means and look like.
Is it just about having babies?
(26:44):
Or is it something more?
Jason Alexander (26:46):
Yeah, that's a great question. And, you know,
if this is a description ofhumanity as a whole, not just
looking at individuals, but alarger point about the human
population, then I don't I don'tthink you need to say that this
is some kind of command thatevery single individual has
(27:07):
offspring, that that wouldn'tmake sense that the idea is that
humanity as a whole would, wouldfill in subdue the earth. And in
fact, you're going to find as amajor theme in Genesis,
Baroness, infertility andcomplicated stories, complicated
pregnancies, stories aboutcomplicated pregnancies. So it
(27:28):
would be a stretch to say thatthis is a command that everyone
has as children. Certainly theblessing of verse 28, does have
to do I think with a fertilityand you see something similar
with God blesses the the animalsto be fertile into populate, but
what it means to be fruitful andto multiply, it does go beyond
(27:52):
just having children. And infact, and we could look this up
if you want, so I don't knowexactly which verses But Joe,
Jacob, near the end of his lifeis told to be fruitful and
multiply. And he's well beyondthe years of having any more
kids. So but he's told, Jacob istold, Be fruitful and multiply,
and he goes on to have no morechildren. So either the blessing
(28:17):
didn't work in the case of Jacobor what it means to be fruitful
and multiply is something deeperand larger than just individuals
getting pregnant. But it doeshave to do with that. I mean,
it'd be short sighted tooverlook that dimension here
because I think Genesis wants usto see the heavily populated
(28:39):
cities and worlds which is allGod's plan and design, to be
connected to a blessing thatflows from from him. Our
ability, our generative powercomes from him
Travis Albritton (28:51):
that scripture reference Genesis 35, verse 11,
that sounds right. Yeah. Gooddeal. Thank you.
Corina Espejo (28:57):
I love this. So and if I'm hearing this
correctly, if I'm really takingwhat you're saying, Look at
Genesis as Okay, big picture sothat I how's it gonna apply to
me? There's something here Ifeel inspired when I hear this
to not just say, Okay, what do Ineed to do in that productivity
mindset, but who do I need tobe? It'll take me back. Okay,
(29:17):
wait a minute, wait a minute.
Who is this God, whether we'relooking at it from that
theological, the Trinity, oreven that grammatical self
deliberation, even that culturalheavenly assemblies? I think
what I'm thinking is, Who isGod? This is going to kind of
propel me to wonder when I lookat from Old Testament and New
Testament, I'm going to wonder,how do I be like God and how I
rule? How do I be like God andfruitful and multiply and we are
(29:41):
going to see sometimes that doesmean making beautiful little
babies or adopting beautifullittle babies or anything of the
like, and sometimes it's goingto mean so much more than that.
And bringing in the foreignerand letting them be a part of
God's multiplication of being aruler and an image bearer does
that Is that am I on track here?
Jason Alexander (30:01):
Oh, I love that. Yeah. And I think that's
the, that's the idea here isthat this is, you know, you can
get lost in all of the, you knowthe controversy and arguments
about this text and miss thetheological import, you miss
what you're describing thattaking up that call that, that
(30:22):
summons to go wrestle andgrapple with the beauty of
humanity. And ultimately, humansare created for noble purposes,
God's God's purposes, we arehis, his image, and nothing can
(30:42):
rob humanity of that vocation,that calling that that essence
is really, really amazing. Theidea that we rule, some imagine
that, well, the Earth is ours,and God gave it to us to rule
and to do with what we want. Andthat can result in treating
God's good world and the peoplethat inhabit it like garbage or
(31:05):
the wildlife that inhabits it.
And so whatever ruling insubduing means, insofar as we're
God's image, it's connected towhat kind of ruler, Governor God
Himself is, which so far inGenesis chapter one, we have no
reason to believe he's not athoroughly gentle, loving,
(31:27):
concerned with others kind ofGod. And so to not wrestle with
the picture of God would be tomaybe get your application, I
hate to reduce it to justapplication that's not big
enough, but what you do with it,if you could get it wrong.
Travis Albritton (31:48):
So there's a couple more things I want to
walk through in this particularpassage. The first one is the
word translated as mankind.
Yeah. Yes. Actually. A DOM,right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Late, who later shows up as a inthe story, an individual
character, right. So what arethe different ways that that
word a DOM is translated? Andhow do we know? As we're reading
(32:11):
the story that like, Okay, thisis mankind, like all of
humankind, this is now menspecifically like male gender.
And then this is now individualperson, help us parse through
that and how you would knowwhat, like how to read yourself
into the story. Yeah.
Jason Alexander (32:31):
Okay. Well, and let me just start off by saying,
The, there's more discussionhere by people much smarter than
me. So, you know, this is thisis another thing that would be
involved. But yeah, the questionis, at what point in Genesis
does a dumb move from like anoun to a proper noun, right to
(32:55):
a name, when is the first timeand in context is going to play
a role in that, but the word ofdumb means humanity, and it's,
it's fairly sophisticated, itsconnection to aldemar, that, you
know, the, the ground. Sothere's all kinds of discussions
there. But you want to see adumb in these verses as humanity
(33:20):
because it's then later parsedout and described as something
that's male and female. So itwouldn't make much sense to say
that the man is male and female,it's fitting if at the end of
Genesis chapter three, when thewoman is given her name by the
(33:41):
man, and her name is cover. Andthat means probably life is the
idea she her name means life.
And the man's name is a DOM,which is connected to ground. So
you have I mean, if we were totranslate a DOM and Cava, we'd
get ground and life, which isexactly what they're the stories
(34:05):
describe that a DOM is made fromthe ground, and then a woman
comes from a dumb, so it's notyet, man, because it's described
here as male and female.
Corina Espejo (34:20):
So just to clarify that we're really just
talking about the verses that wejust read Genesis 126 31, it
does flip later, but we're notthere yet. So when I read this,
as a woman, I can still feelconfident, I want to look
towards God as my image bear.
Travis Albritton (34:35):
So before we move to Genesis to one more
observation, that that I want tomake and I'll get your thoughts
on Jason, this identity as animage bearer is given to
mankind, male and female. Itactually goes so far as saying,
both Yeah, men and women forsure. And then both men and
women are given theresponsibility to rule and
(34:59):
subdue Be fruitful and multiplyand go. So it's not males rule
and subdue. Then because you gotto have two to tango men and
women told you to be fruitfulmultiply. Both men and women are
called to rule and subdue. Whatwould that have meant to an
ancient audience to hear that?
Yeah, view of women?
Jason Alexander (35:20):
Well, I don't know exactly how everyone around
is real in those days would haveconstrued women as the image of
the Divine. But this certainlyhas a high view of humanity as a
whole men and women, Genesis isnot discriminating here, there
(35:41):
isn't. There isn't hierarchyhere within humanity. There
isn't here any indication thatone of the things that the image
bear is to rule in subdue isanother image bearer that would
be reading into this, theseverses something that's not
(36:01):
there, that you you want tofind. This is again, part of
that, being humble. And as muchas is possible, taking the text
as it sits before us. And doingthe hard work of reading and
translating and reading aboutthe ancient world. Thankfully,
there are people that's donethat for us, so we can just read
their stuff. But the idea that aman would rule over a woman,
(36:25):
it's not here, look elsewhere,
Corina Espejo (36:27):
this is great. If your head is spinning, and
you're like this goes againsteverything I've ever heard or
learned. Listen, we're We loveyou. We're praying for you.
We're right there with you.
Let's keep going. As we'rediving a little bit more into
this. And again, if you're likethis is blowing my mind, Hey,
man, we're so excited to blowyour mind. We are excited for
(36:47):
your study and your Bible study.
So let's keep tracking Genesis218 to 24. Let's start talking a
little bit about this passage.
And we're going to keep comingback to what is God's intent in
creating men and women tofulfill the role of image
bearers. But let's keep goingGenesis 218, to 24. And if
you're reading in a bunch ofdifferent translations, or
(37:10):
versions, great, I'm reading anNLT. So starting in verse 18, of
chapter two, it says, Then theLord God said, It is not good
for the man to be alone, I willmake a helper who is just right
for him. So the Lord God formedfrom the ground all the wild
animals and all the birds to thesky, he brought them to the man
to see what he could call them.
(37:32):
And the man chose a name foreach one. He gave names to all
the livestock, all the birds ofthe sky, and all the wild
animals, but still, there was nohelper just right for him. So
the Lord God caused the man tofall into a deep sleep. While
the man slept, the Lord God tookout one of the man's ribs and
close up the opening. Then theLord God made a woman from the
rib, and he brought her to theman. At last hit, the man
(37:55):
exclaimed, this one is born frommy bone and flesh from my flesh.
She shall be called woman,because she was taken from man.
This explains why a man leaveshis father and mother and is
joined to his wife and the twoare united into one.
Travis Albritton (38:09):
Alright, so Jason right off the bat again,
we're just going to jumpstraight into the straight into
the fire. Yeah. helper. Yeah.
Walk us through this word.
helper. Suitable help, mate?
Yeah, yeah. Her personalassistant? Yeah, Secretary.
Yeah, right. There's a littlethere's a little sarcasm going
on. Yeah,
Jason Alexander (38:30):
no, I don't mean to be sarcastic. No. So
listen, that, but this is thisis an important discussion. And
again, it's hard for me to talkabout this without panning out
just a bit because the questionfor me has always been help with
what help to do what like, what,what's the idea what what
(38:51):
exactly does he need help withis that he needs help. Like,
he's got things to do. And he'sa busy, busy guy. And so he
needs help. And so I think thatsetting of why help is required
can be important to thisdiscussion. And again, remember
Genesis chapter one, I think youwalk away with when you do
(39:13):
business with ancient setting,you read not just Genesis, but
more of the of the Scriptures,you notice that? Genesis one
really sets us on a trajectoryfor understanding the whole
narrative of Scripture, ascontroversial the narrative, you
know, it's not it's notnecessarily a clean, direct line
(39:35):
all the way from beginning toend. But there is a story being
told throughout Scripture andGenesis tells us that God
created a very good and good iskey in Genesis one not perfect
world, but its perfection or itsits goal. Its tell us that the
(39:55):
thing for which God created allthings humans play a role. That
and human beings, that's God'splan to take creation from a the
good creation from A to its nextgood place B and C and so on
humans are involved. They're cocreators. They're the image of
God. They work with him and forHis glory, and they themselves
(40:19):
radiate out the glory and wisdomand kindness of the Creator. The
humans play a role that where isGod. And that story will he's,
if I'm reading it right, andwe'll definitely see this in
Genesis chapter two and three,he's there. He's not off in the
distant, whatever the azureblue, looking down from heaven,
(40:41):
but God Himself intends to takeup residence. And so heaven and
earth are one, one reality increation. And so humans have a
role. Genesis, chapter 126, to28 gives us the function of
humanity, and they play a rolein God's good world. Genesis
chapter two will give moreattention to the creation of
(41:04):
humanity. But it also portrayscreation in very temple like
terms. Or maybe you could say,the stories about the temple
later in the Hebrew Bible, or inthe stories of the tabernacle,
describe the tabernacle in thetemple in creation terms. And so
everything about Eden remindsone of the temple, the very
(41:26):
presence of God, from the watersflowing out from the this kind
of hub of creation in Eden, tothe gold there in the idea is
it's because God is there, andyou almost want to look at this
Eden, and its garden as theplace from which the world jumps
(41:48):
off. It's the the lifespring arethe wellspring of all creation,
that's the image of the watersflowing out, and that that is
seen throughout, think ofZechariah 14, Psalm 36, john,
for john seven, zekiel 4017.
It's all over Hebrew Scripture,that rivers of life flowing from
where the God lives. And sowe're, whereas Genesis one shows
(42:14):
humans as these Royals, sort ofruling images of God, Genesis
two portrays the humans in thegarden, like the garden adjacent
to the temple, as these verypriestly figures and their role.
And again, in Genesis two, it isinterested in their role
humanity is created to work andkeep the garden and that
(42:38):
language is used by the for thepriests in the tabernacle, and
they work in keep the worshipgoing in the tent. So humans are
portrayed in Genesis chaptertwo, as priestly figures who
have a role, they're not justcreated, and Okay, enjoy
yourself, you know, like, dowhat you'd like find a career
(43:01):
path, find a purpose, that Imean, all of that's a part of
it, but they play a larger roleof stewarding this garden. And I
think the idea is that theywould with each generation sort
of push back the boundaries ofEden creation, the creation
project begins here with thesepeople. So if you've established
(43:23):
that kind of context, now you'rein a place to ask for help for
what, and it's that it's, it'sthat the gendered pair of man
and woman is is made, and she'sa helper, because he needs help.
He is not self sufficient. Andhe needs help specifically, to
(43:47):
keep and work the garden. And heneeds a kind of help that is
corresponding to him not. TheHebrew here is notoriously
obscure. I don't know ifobscures the word but it's
difficult, a helper and thenthere's three prepositions in a
role as before him, What in theworld do you do with that? But
(44:10):
the idea, I think, iscorresponding it's like
everything that he isn't maybe,but he needs that other side of
humanity to steward this garden.
And I don't even think here, I'dwant to jump immediately to what
he needs her for procreation,that's certainly true. And
(44:30):
that's going to show up in theseverses. But But first and
foremost, Genesis two opens withnow the earth was kind of like
Genesis chapter one, the earthwas barren and there was no rain
and there was aspring that welled up from the
ground and there was no one totake care of the earth and so
God made a dumb, but a DOMwasn't sufficient. More help was
needed to really move creationforward. That's the setting in
(44:54):
which a woman is is made. Sojust like Genesis one where the
woman or where the humanity iscreated as a culmination of the
creation project. Same thinghere. The woman is the last
thing in the world is built inHebrew. The woman is built from
the man, which is prettyawesome. But she's built from
(45:16):
this animate living being. Andshe she's kind of the crown
jewel of the Genesis chaptertwo. Now we're in a position to
move forward. So just Thoreaudignity for both men and woman
in these passages. There is noindication here that she is his
personal assistant, and thathe's got plans and she'll be
(45:39):
right alongside him to quietlyimplement his ideas that that's
not the idea. They are cokeepers, tillers of the garden,
there's nothing about the wordhelp, that indicates
subordination. In fact, the Helpis usually a deliverer. And, to
our surprise, help is used ofGod. Often it's, it's a, it's a
(46:02):
common way of praying to God andthe Psalms be my help. They're
not saying be my subordinate.
That's not the idea. So helpwould actually imply that you
need help. You're in need, notthe helper. So this is a really
(46:24):
beautiful picture of COcreators, no indication of one
ruling over the other not yet.
That's going to come, but it'snot here.
Corina Espejo (46:32):
So I love what you said, Jason, when you're
thinking, Okay, wait a minute,go back to the beginning of
Genesis two. And how we can'treally I know, unfortunately, in
this podcast, we're isolatingthese passages, but we cannot,
especially when you think about,you know why this book was
written? Who was written to thestyle that it was written in
that what comes before thesepassages actually does tell us a
(46:54):
lot about what we're actuallyreading. I actually love I'm so
curious to hear Travis explainthis to me. And I actually
really enjoyed the way heexplained because, you know, he
brought up this concept ofwhat's what's the deal with the
parade of animals before Adam?
And I'm really I like the wayTravis explains it. I'm curious
to hear your thoughts on it.
Travis, do you want to? I'd loveto hear you say that again.
Travis Albritton (47:15):
If you just read it, it reads as if God
doesn't really know what theanswer is. Right? It's like,
okay, I made man. He's not up tothe task. So let's just see if
we can create some kind of allstar team here. out into the
world. Let's see if dogs areready to be man's best friend.
Has this like parade of animals?
Like, yeah, so you can you canread it as like God shooting
(47:36):
from the hip, trying to figuresomething out. You can also read
it from the perspective of Godis doing this for on Adams
behalf. Yeah. So when hearrives, at the end, waking up
and seeing he Shah, is there,yeah, that he recognizes what
makes her different. And then itcould also simply be actually
(47:59):
setting up Genesis three, wherewe now have this serpent figure,
who would have been a part ofthis parade of animals, and is
like, what the heck, I'm thecraftiest. Animal here. Why was
I not chosen? To be fair? Right?
Yeah, totally. Yeah. So So whatis what is your take on? Why
(48:21):
that aside, is there or, or howit plays into this idea of
understanding the significanceof that situation? Isha?
Jason Alexander (48:28):
I love the way you describe it as a parade?
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm moreagnostic with with those verses,
because I'm not exactly I'm notexactly sure. Yeah, the the the
idea that humans are cocreators, you see at work, then
God kind of honoring thatvocation of like, let's see,
see, this is why I made you forso you know, let's go let's,
let's see, I you do this, andthe text doesn't specify is
(48:53):
looking for a help? Well, itdoesn't. It doesn't specify that
this thing is the search. We'retold he doesn't have a helper.
And then there's then there'sthis, specifically naming the
creatures so that that's anindication of his authority, I
think at least, but I like theidea of God playfully involving
(49:18):
the human in the next step,arriving. I think that's as long
as you don't think thatprocreation is part of the help
because of procreation ends upbeing part of the help you have
something blasphemous in theHebrew Bible. I mean, that no
way would God offer animals as asexual counterpart. So that
(49:40):
would be the one challenge ifyou if you imply in help
procreative or generativeability, but it almost feels
like a sidebar, where it's likeI heard one person describe it
as literarily building suspense,which is kind of what you were
saying. Leading us along to Oh,the woman The surprise crown
(50:01):
jewel right of the createdworld? I don't know. Yeah, I
don't know. I've went throughthat quite a bit. And I kind of
gave up. Because it's there. Imean, it's there. It's part of
the project, but I don't I don'tknow. Sorry.
Corina Espejo (50:14):
Good. No, this gives me hope that like, I don't
have to an immediate answer. I'mnot a failure as a leader when
this is good. Jason exactAlexander doesn't have the
answer. I feel Oh, no. It's nota surprise. Good. This is
exciting. So let's jump into oneof my favorite words. And I
(50:35):
think in studying this word out,I'm still learning so much about
it. But let's try and cover somesome groundwork. We're looking
at this aser word helper, isaser. a feminine characteristic?
Are we looking at this andsaying this is for female?
Jason Alexander (50:51):
No, it's not. I mean, in terms of Genesis,
chapter two, it will turn outthat the Help is a woman. But
that is not to portray her assubordinate, rather, as a
counterpart or almost like adelivering Adam from his
(51:13):
helplessness or his singlehandedness. He'll need more than
what he is. And so she is thereto help him out. Again, not his
personal assistant. And help isnot a term used for females
alone. It's not Yeah, it's it'snot designated for females. I
(51:35):
mean, it's used to describedeliver of some kind. They're
helping us out. It's a it's a,it's a good idea. It's not, it's
not to imply subordination. Andof course, the fact that God is
described as Israel's help wouldsuggest that I mean, when, when
Israel calls on the Lord to betheir help, they're not saying
(52:00):
be my assistant, that that makeszero sense. So there's nothing
inherent in the word to applythat she's lessor, or an
afterthought, or anything likethat.
Corina Espejo (52:15):
And I think the first time and again, if your
mind is blown, you're in goodcompany, because that for the
longest time I know I said,Acer, Acer Connect. Oh, that
means that females are a helperand even as we're talking about,
okay, hierarchy andsubordination. That is going to
mean a lot of these words meanso many different things to so
many different people. I knowgrowing up, I'll be honest, it
(52:38):
was like besotted bad word.
You're, you're a quote unquote,subordinate. You're lower in the
hierarchy you are only designedfor. And people think what's
wrong with that, right? And thenother people hear that word, and
they're going to feel sobelittled, devalued, and fear.
And you're going to have thiswide range, even with us talking
in English as Americans. Like,we're going to have such a wide
(52:59):
response to even these words. Mytakeaway, though, when I
realized aser, was not meant todefine females, it was meant to
describe how we as humanity, weweren't meant to be alone, as we
accomplished, God's designed forus to rule to be good stewards
to use that word steward. I lovethat word to take care of and
(53:20):
manage something that God hasgiven us that we're really
ruling something that wasentrusted to us. Right, right.
And I love that because it was,it took some of these cultural
connotations out of it andbrought me again, back to God,
back to Elohim. I'm not hearingaser and thinking female, that's
what I am. I am aser. Right,right. But I'm thinking I am
(53:43):
God's creation. I am meant to belike him, as he delivers us,
helps us and vice versa. Is thatYeah,
Jason Alexander (53:52):
yeah, there's nothing here that would imply
the male is the boss and thefemales, the Assistant that just
doesn't, it's it's not here.
Now, again, that is going tocome up in the biblical vision
of gender is, it's prettyamazing, I think. But when we
get to a point where we'retalking about submission and
concern and reverence andgentleness toward one another,
(54:17):
imagining a future, that's notthe current situation. We're not
talking about a kind of built inhierarchy into creation. There's
almost like you could think ofit as an undoing of something
that's went horribly wrong increation. So, I mean, this is
(54:38):
this again, this is the biblicalvision of society as a takeaway,
the biblical vision of humanityis there isn't hierarchy. And
that's, that's, I think, in theancient world, but even today,
that's revolutionary. There arethere is no system stratified
society here, humans are imagebearers of God, and they have a
(55:04):
vocation, men and women, when weget to the Apostle Paul, which
I'm grateful that you have, thatI don't have to guide you
through that. Leave that tosomeone better than me, this
will come up there. But here inGenesis, also, I should mention
that she that she came after theman also should not imply to a
(55:25):
subordination, there's adiscussion about priority of, of
creation, or firstborn birthrights in the book of Genesis.
It's there, the firstborn beingthe inheritance, inheriting the
blessing. But what's so amazingin Genesis is that cultural
assumption is always undercut byI mean, even right in the very
(55:47):
next chapter is after thecreation story with Cain and
Abel, I mean, this the secondborn is being favored. And that
just carries on where thefirstborn isn't held in such
high esteem as the surroundingculture might have imagined. So
I think we want to be careful tojump to from Genesis, we get to
Paul, there's a more complicateddiscussion that has to take
(56:11):
place. But But here, nothing sofar has revealed to us in
Genesis one or two, that thewoman is a lesser or subordinate
creature, and that it's notGod's designed intent that that
is the case nothing here thatwould imply that and I my
reading, and I come at that froma, let me just say the words
(56:32):
that hopefully people are tiredof hearing, but they're
important that Genesis chaptersone and two are deeply
complementarian. Like, in thebest sense of that word, man and
woman complement each other inGod's will. And it is deeply
egalitarian or mutual. They arenot over one another. The
(56:59):
polarizing effect of thisdiscussion is very unfortunate,
where the church is shoehornedinto this discussion, pick a
side, it's like anything else inour society, pick a side, and
you just can't. And it's a shamethat that language has been
hijacked, and has come to meanvery technical meanings, because
(57:21):
the text itself portrayscomplimentary mutual beings. And
those aren't dirty words thatyou know, those on one side
think the other side, it's asinful use of language, but it's
not it's right there. So it willdo no good to say I'm a
mutualist, or I'm acomplementarian. Like, then
you're not dealing with thewhole of this portrayal of
(57:44):
humanity.
Travis Albritton (57:46):
Kareena and I are laughing because in the last
episode, we were like, We willnot use those terms, because
they're not helpful.
Jason Alexander (57:52):
They're not unfortunately, they're not.
Yeah, I mean, and that's thething, that's why I've not used
them, because, you know, I I'dlike to redeem them, but it's
like rodini retrying to redeemliberal and conservative. I
mean, they're, they're, they'realready freighted. And it'll
take a long time to unpack that,you know, carrier, it's so it's
almost like, it's unfortunate,you have to go a different
(58:14):
route. And then it gets moreconfusing, because it's like,
well, what do you mean, you'reintroducing a crazy idea?
Corina Espejo (58:19):
So technical and so inconsistent? Yeah, right.
Totally. Absolutely. Yeah. Ilove this, I love as we're
really just looking at what's infront of us doing really great
exegetical reading of Scripture,not trying to pull in everything
we know, experienced, but justlooking at Genesis 126 31,
Genesis 218, to 24. So forexample, we're talking about
(58:43):
creation order, and doesn'tmatter. Well, according to these
two passages, we're not readingthat here. And so we can't pull
from what's not there. So aswe're looking at all these
things, we really want toencourage you read from what's
in front of you pull from whatis there, read in context, all
of Genesis one to two, on tothree. And let's just talk about
(59:06):
our takeaways for today, ifwe're just trying to stay, you
know, sit within the pockethere, okay? We're reading our
identity is first and foremostas image bearers of God, both
men and women as a DOM ashumanity. All of us get to
continue to look to God tofigure out how to rule, how to
subdue, how to be fruitful, andhow to multiply, right. And then
(59:28):
looking at it, again, justGenesis one and two, those of
you who are already lookingahead, stick with us here, stick
within the pocket. There's nohierarchy suggested here. And
depending on what you think thatmeans, again, look back to
Scripture and see, there's noone above the other in terms of
we're all equal before God, andwe all complement each other.
(59:50):
And that's a part of ourcommission, if you will, to rule
and subdue, to be fruitful,multiply together as co workers
and then We're all called to beAcer's to one another to, again,
and the scripture that I thoughtabout was second Corinthians
three, I love this. But wheneverit's an inverse 16 but whenever
(01:00:11):
someone turns to the Lord, theveil is taken away, for the Lord
is the spirit and wherever theSpirit of the Lord is, there is
freedom. So all of us who havehad that veil removed, can see
and reflect the glory of theLord. And the Lord Who is the
spirit makes us more and morelike Him, as we are changed, and
to his glorious image. And so weall get to move from glory to
(01:00:32):
glory to be like that God, whois that aser who is that helper
and and humility help eachother. Right? That's a part of
the beauty of being a humanbeing.
Travis Albritton (01:00:43):
If you want to get the study guide for this
episode, you can go to womenchurch, podcast comm, you can
sign up for that newsletter, andyou'll get that study guide and
in addition to all the otherstudy guides who put out to help
you with this podcast, and alsoget to get notified about new
episodes, but we look forward tohaving you back next week, when
Jason's gonna come back and helpus work through Genesis three
(01:01:04):
and make sense of what is goingon in that story and why it's
relevant to the question we haveabout what does the Bible say
about women in the church?
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