#3. Is This What God Wants?

In this episode, Jason Alexander joins us to walk through Genesis 3 and unpack the fallout from man's decision to pursue wisdom outside of God's design.

Questions we'll answer in this episode:

• Does Genesis 3 show that God wants man to exercise authority over woman?
• Is Genesis 3:14-19 the goal for how we interact with one another within the church?
• What does it mean for woman to "desire" her husband?

Sign up to receive Bible study guides, handouts, and resources that complement what you learn in this podcast by going to WomenChurchPodcast.com

Episode Transcript

Travis Albritton (00:01):
Welcome back to the women in the church
podcast where we take a freshlook at what the Bible says
about women in church for theICC. I'm Travis Albritton.
Joining me as always, is Corinadispay have a lovely Corina
Greetings, and then back formore pain and punishment, Jason
Alexander?

Jason Alexander (00:18):
Yes. Here I am.
I can't I haven't slept. Let'sgo. Yeah, this is great.

Travis Albritton (00:24):
So today, if Genesis one and two felt like a
head spinning journey throughthe ancient Near East, yeah,
just wait till we get to Genesisthree, which is what we're gonna
tackle today. So we're going towalk through Genesis three,
which includes the fall. Soeating the forbidden fruit, and
involves some punishments,maybe, perhaps, and then also

(00:48):
the outcome, what happens whenwe sin and rebel against God,
and we're going to do it, we'regonna have this discussion
within the framework of genderroles, and what we can glean and
maybe what isn't actually therethat we often put into Genesis
three, to make sure that we'repulling out what God has
intended for us to understand.
So let's go ahead and jump intoour first scripture reading,

(01:10):
which would be Genesis chapterthree, verse one, through 13.
Kareena Why don't you read thatfor us?

Corina Espejo (01:18):
The serpent was the shortest of all the wild
animals Lord God had made. Oneday he asked the woman Did God
really say you must not eat thefruit from any of the trees in
the garden. Of course, we mayeat from the trees in the
garden, the woman replied, it'sonly the fruit from the tree in
the middle of the garden thatwe're not allowed to eat. God
said, You must not eat or eventouch it. If you do, you will

(01:40):
die. You won't die. The serpentreplied to the woman. God knows
that your eyes will be opened assoon as you eat it, and you will
be like God knowing both goodand evil. The woman was
convinced, she saw that the treewas beautiful, and its fruit
looked delicious. And she wantedthe wisdom it would give her so
she took some of the fruit andate it. Then she gave some to
her husband who was with her,and he ate it, too. At that

(02:03):
moment, their eyes were opened,and they suddenly felt shame at
their nakedness. So they suedfig leaves together to cover
themselves. When the coolevening breezes were blowing,
the man and his wife heard theLord God walking about in the
garden, so they hid from theLord God among the trees. Then
the Lord God called to the man,where are you? He replied, I
heard you walking in the garden.
So I hid. I was afraid because Iwas naked. Who told you that you

(02:25):
were naked? The Lord God asked,Have you eaten from the tree
whose fruit I commanded you notto eat? The man replied, It was
the woman you gave me who gaveme the fruit and ate it. Then
the Lord God asked the woman,what have you done? The serpent
deceived me, she replied. That'swhy I ate it.

Travis Albritton (02:43):
All right, so the epic downfall of mankind has
begun. And this isn't in thenotes, but I just want to ask
because I feel like the answerwill be fun. Jason, who is the
Serpents in this story? Is itSatan? Or is it someone else?

Jason Alexander (03:02):
Yeah, it's kind of like the discussion we had
earlier about the first personplural language of Genesis
chapter one, there is somerereading, that happens a little
later. But, but even in wedidn't read it here, but in in
verse 15, you'll get the sensethat the serpent stands for more

(03:26):
than just a snake. But there areall kinds of connections with a
serpent in the ancient world,that kind of mythology, which
includes serpents, as God'senemy or the embodiment of
something bad. That comes up inIsaiah, chapter 27. You hear

(03:47):
about the twisting serpentLeviathan, so almost this kind
of mythological creature thathas the ability to create chaos
or wreak havoc, and it's broughtup in Isaiah, to talk about how
God has subdued and laid lowthat ancients, mythological

(04:09):
serpent, Egypt to had a visionof the serpent that was a symbol
of power and of vitality. And soperhaps some of that is being
under cut here in Genesis,because it's definitely not the
vision in Genesis.

Travis Albritton (04:26):
Well, and the reason I asked is because, like
in Genesis one where we can veryquickly say, oh, let us that
means Trinity. The story itselfdoes not say that this serpent
is Satan. And if we do pull backthe curtain and look at other
creation myth in the area ofMesopotamia around the time that
the story is set, serpents are acommon character. They're

(04:49):
mischievous, they'reantagonists. And so this could
also be the writers the editorsof Genesis repurposing, common
imagery, characters. telling ita different way to say, this is
who you say, God is like, yeah,this is actually who God is
like, and we are going to takeyour story and flip it upside

(05:12):
down. Right? Yeah,

Jason Alexander (05:13):
yeah. I mean, within the narrative world of
Genesis chapter two and three,the serpent has it, you know,
has a more immediate meaningthan, than Satan. But as I said,
you get the sense from verse 15,that whatever the serpent is, is
bigger than just a serpent. Butthe serpent is called hyatts

(05:37):
hustle. hasa basically, wildlifeor life of the of the field, I
guess, technically. And theseare the exact creatures that
Adam seemed to have some kind ofharmony with the the wildlife in
Genesis chapter two. And so theserpent is among those

(05:59):
creatures. And I think that'simportant that this is one of
the creatures over whichpresumably, humanity is supposed
to rule.

Travis Albritton (06:09):
Indeed. Well, that was a fun little sidebar,
just once again, a reminder thatwhen we read the Bible, there's
a lot here. And we just get tohave fun unpacking it and seeing
what God has laid out for us.
Now Corina, why don't you get usback on track?

Corina Espejo (06:23):
So when we're looking at Genesis three, why is
Eve's understanding of thecommand different from chapter
two? Verse 17?

Jason Alexander (06:34):
Yeah, I think this has a lot to do with the
way that the serpent ischaracterized. He is called a
room, which is an ambiguous termin Hebrew. You don't want to
necessarily say that to be aroom is is a bad thing. But
it's, it's not. Neither is itnecessarily good. It's a word

(06:56):
used in Proverbs to describebecoming shrewd, and I think
shrewd as it is a good way oftranslating this here because
you can sense in the Englishword shrewd some some wordplay
with with what happens inchapter two, verse 25. But the
serpent is shrewd, or crafty.
This is a way of describing theserpent's ability to trick and

(07:19):
get what he wants. Now thehumans in chapter two verse 25,
are called outer meme. Andthey're the word is often
translated naked or nude. And Ithink nude and shrewd is isn't
nice wordplay in English,because these nude human beings,

(07:39):
which seemed to be naive at somelevel, in a good way, like a
child, is, they're set back ontheir heels by this shrewd
serpent. And it's, it's thesuggestive language of the
serpent that I think, puts Evein a tough spot. Because he's

(08:00):
not even telling themnecessarily to eat from the
tree. He's just presenting themwith some carefully placed
language to get them to questionthe motives of the of the deity
of the Creator. And so it putsher in a position where she's

(08:21):
like, Well, no, he didn'tnecessarily say that. And so
it's just like, quoting from thehip.

Corina Espejo (08:29):
So when we look at chapter two, verse 17, right,
God says it again to humanity,right? If you eat its fruit,
again, we're talking about thetree of the knowledge of good
and evil, you are sure to die.
But then in chapter three, whenthe serpent asks, okay, Did God
really say write her responses?
Well, what God said was and E'sresponses, you must not eat or

(08:52):
even touch it. If you do, youwill die. And there's a
difference there. Yeah. Is therea difference in Eve's
understanding? Or do we thinkthis difference in the command
is coming from somewhere else?
Why is there this big change?

Jason Alexander (09:04):
I've heard people describe this as well.
She's, she's going beyond whatwas actually commanded. God
never said anything abouttouching whether you want to get
really technical, she didn'texist. When, when the command
was given initially, apparently,or if she did exist, she existed
as a part of the the DOM. So youknow, did she misunderstand? Is

(09:31):
she grappling with how thequestion was phrased? It's
interesting the serpent here isessentially asking did God say
absolutely die? It's almost asif what's implied here is that
you can eat this like you know,if you're gonna die, it's gonna
be a long way off like you'renot going to die tomorrow from
from meeting this. Did Godreally say you're absolutely

(09:53):
going to die? Is that is thatwhat was said? I don't know what
to make of her response. beyondthat. She is it's almost as if
she's trying to recall whatexactly was said. You know, it's
almost like it you know, that'sa good point. Well, what was
said was don't need it. Youknow, don't even touch it.
You're gonna die. You're You'reright, though maybe maybe I

(10:16):
won't die today. This is somegood looking fruit and it would
make me a better, more adeptperson to eat from it. So yeah,
I think her stumbling withrecalling what was said is a
product of the serpent beingshrewd, and her being nude. I

(10:39):
think that's part literarily. Ithink that's what you see being
played out here.

Corina Espejo (10:43):
Yeah. So it's more like, okay, maybe there was
a discrepancy because it was abad game of telephone. But it's
more likely and consistent withthis narrative being told that
the serpent is shrewd, and hecan kind of get inside your head
and make you kind of muddy thewaters and get things confused.
Yeah,

Jason Alexander (11:00):
I think that's right. We're not meant to
underestimate the power of thisserpent suggestion. There is a
dis a deception that's happeningand it's very subtle. Like just
a brilliant, I don't know, inour modern day, who would who
you compare this to like maybe areally good used car salesman

(11:23):
who gets you to buy like a 1982Datsun or whatever is, you know,
any. He he convinces you? It'sawesome.

Corina Espejo (11:32):
The princess in the frog, you know, okay, yes,
that's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Jason Alexander (11:38):
The power of suggestion here has Yeah, you
said muddy the waters. I likethat,

Corina Espejo (11:44):
homeboy, smooth.
All right, yeah. And I and theserpent guys got it. So in some,
here's some of these otherminute details. But I think when
I know for me why people askthis, why I asked this, some of
these details. And I love thatwe're tackling this from the
context that Genesis One, twoand three was written, we can
sometimes use these thoughts inthese questions. And these
answers are non answers right?

(12:07):
To draw conclusions that aren'tthere. I think another common
thought, right that people haveis Okay, wait a minute, was Adam
there when he was talking to theserpent? Like these are one of
those smaller details thatpeople draw big conclusions
from?

Jason Alexander (12:19):
Yes. She gave some some of the fruit to her
husband who was with her right.
I think it's implied he'sstanding right there. You would
have liked to see him jump in.
But But again, you don't want tounderestimate the power of this
craftiness at work deceiving,and appealing to it says that

(12:41):
the food was from the woman'sperspective desirable. And it's
the power of suggestion andappealing to desire. And there's
a lot of confusing emotions, Ithink, in play here. And that
was it seems that was theserpent's goal.

Travis Albritton (12:57):
And it seems like Adam wouldn't have fared
much better just by how he isdescribed. Yeah, it's not it's
not like Eve is the suggestibleone. And Adam is the rock like
he, he is just as cunning, afair match for the serpent.
Yeah, they're described as beingthat innocent, you know, no
street smarts, dislike trying tofigure out how to cultivate this

(13:20):
guy. And here's this craftyserpent, because because that is
one of the as Kareena wassuggesting, one of the things
that we can read into it is,well, if Adam had just been
being a good leader, right,doing his job, this wouldn't
have happened.

Jason Alexander (13:33):
Right? If he would have kept his little lady,
you know, protected her again,this underestimates just how up
for grabs, I guess the humanheart is in this story.

Corina Espejo (13:45):
I think for me, and I've heard this. So now I'm
wondering, one of the centralthemes that I have heard growing
up in two and three, is aboutgender roles, right? A gender
aspect as a central theme ofGenesis, for example, hate the
fall happened because like Evetook charge a woman took charge
and see this is this is a partof the issue. But now that I'm
listening to why this wascreated the context, it doesn't

(14:10):
sound like there's too much ofthat as a central theme. It is
it in there and maybe I'mmissing it or

Jason Alexander (14:17):
it is there, the man and the woman are are
different in and to say thatthere's not differences is a
miss read in the otherdirection. And this is what I
mentioned last time that thesechapters do set forth
complimentary genders, right?
And, you know, we live in a veryrare cultural moment, where
there are discussions and inmovements to erase the gendered

(14:42):
pneus of of creation ofhumanity, where there is a move
to undermine and even questionthat there is a man and a woman
that should alarm us. I don'tthink that should frighten us or
make us. I don't think we shouldoverreact to that. But the

(15:03):
attempts to make confusing manand woman is to undo what
Genesis is trying tocommunicate. I think Genesis is
a helpful text insofar as itsets forth this story about
creation, wherein human is manand woman, and they are

(15:23):
different. But they are equal.

Travis Albritton (15:26):
Yes. And if you're listening, you're like,
Oh, please keep on that thread.
Don't worry. We're talking aboutpost modernism. We're talking
about modern feminism, good, allthat stuff. Once we start
getting to the end of ourjourney, and we start shifting
into application, and the wayour cultural worldviews can
impact the way that we read theBible. Totally, don't worry,
yeah, depending on it, we'll getto it. But for now, we'll stick
in the pocket of Genesis three,I think the last question that I

(15:49):
want to make sure that we speakto, and this is going to bleed
into our next scripture readingis, once Adam and Eve have eaten
this forbidden fruit, theyrecognize the wrong that they
have done, and they so figleaves they're hiding. And then
in verse nine, says, The LordGod called to the man and said

(16:09):
to him, where are you? And soreading this, it seems like he
screwed up, God is nowaddressing the man directly. And
we would assume, if he's God,the Creator all knowing it's not
because he doesn't know what hashappened, right? But maybe
there's something else going onhere. So just kind of like walk

(16:30):
through how this story playsout. And what we should be
picking up as we read throughthis passage, going into then
verse 14, and beyond, there's afew things that are worth
noticing,

Jason Alexander (16:43):
verse eight, which is just, it's a wonder
filled verse. And it's alsotragic if you love and hate to
read it, because it sets forth apicture of this life in the
garden, where in God was to beheard, walking to and fro. And

(17:03):
there's a very specific Hebrewword here for for walking. And
it's the same word that's usedto describe God's presence and
going about with Israel, in thetabernacle in their wanderings.
And so what is lost for a timeby this infraction, by this

(17:27):
choice, this human choice isthis reality where in God can be
seen walking about, and as nearnearness of God, he's not far
off, quote, in heaven. But he's,he's present, the garden is a
place of intimacy. And I thinkthat helps make sense of the

(17:49):
questions that God asked becausehe, he asks, in verse nine,
where are you? And then he'llask, as the woman, what have you
done? What have you eaten? Whotold you? And you're almost
wonder, like, Does God not seewhat's what's happening? And of
course, you know, I shouldn'tsay, of course, because it might

(18:10):
not be obvious to everybody. ButI imagine that God is sort of
calling out and drawingattention to what they've done
like a father might to a child,like, Hey, you know, not so much
I can't find you. But you know,where are you? Where are you at?
You know, like that the deepestsense of that question, like,

(18:32):
where are you at? Now, it's acalling out to the human being,
to live intimately and closewith God, but now he can't be
found. So it's an indicationthat what the woman had thought
would make her God like andwould was desirable and would

(18:53):
bring wisdom instead just, youknow, tore a hole in the
relational connections in everydirection. They're hiding from
one another, that are hidingfrom from God. And so the
question implies that there is aproblem, something has been
torn, that it's singling out,the man should not alarm us, I

(19:17):
don't think you'd want to readinto that, that. see God's
looking for his friend, the manhe doesn't really care about the
woman where she is that doesn'ttell me I think it's more that
as the gardener as the onecreated to care for and steward
the garden, and live inproximity to God is nowhere to

(19:38):
be found. And so, this is God'sway I think of drawing out
confession. And honesty is

Corina Espejo (19:46):
Adam meant to represent, you know, male men,
and Eve meant to represent womenin this story.

Jason Alexander (19:54):
They do. Yeah, so this is a question, you know,
are they archetypes And yeah,they will be used that way later
in the Bible. The names Adam andEve aren't aren't there yet. So
it's it's kind of that's that'sa whole nother moment in this
story that the naming. But atthis stage again remember we

(20:17):
just have Isha and E Sha, wejust have man, man and woman. As
far as Genesis is concerned,it's telling a story of origins.
And it's telling a story aboutmen and women. But I don't know
that I'd want to say, each thingthat Adam does is how men are

(20:37):
and each thing that Eve does iswhat women do, or each thing
that the woman does is whatwomen do

Travis Albritton (20:42):
to piggyback I think the Curiosity comes from
the application step of thestory, right? Like I'm reading
the story. So then how does itimpact my life? My walk with God
and my understanding of what itmeans to be an image bearer. I
think this transitions reallynicely into this next section.
We're going to read here becausewe now start getting into
consequences. Since things havegone awry. There are some things

(21:06):
coming downstream. And thequestion will be, is this God
resetting the expectation forhow men and women are supposed
to interact with each other? Oris this more foreshadowing the
next couple chapters of Genesis?
Let's go ahead and read that.
Since we're there already.
Corina?

Corina Espejo (21:24):
Yeah.

Travis Albritton (21:24):
Do you want to go ahead and read verse 14
through verse 19.

Corina Espejo (21:27):
Yeah, verse 14, says, Then the Lord God said to
the serpent, because you havedone this, you're cursed more
than all animals, domestic andwild, you will crawl on your
belly and groveling in the dustas long as you live, versus teen
and I will cause hostilitybetween you and the woman and
between your offspring and heroffspring, he will strike your
head and you will strike hisheel. Then he said to the woman,

(21:49):
I will sharpen the pain of yourpregnancy and in pain, you will
give birth, and you will desireto control your husband, and he
will rule over you. And to theman. He said, since you listened
to your wife and ate from thetree, whose fruit I commanded
you not to eat, the ground iscursed because of you all your
life, you will struggle toscratch a living from it, it
will grow thorns and thistlesfor you, though you will eat of

(22:11):
its grains, by the sweat of yourbrow Will you have food to eat
until you return to the groundfrom which you were made? For
you were made from the dust andto dust you will return?

Travis Albritton (22:21):
Alright, so this is what happens immediately
after that interaction in thegarden. God's questioning man
questioning woman, they've giventheir their finger pointing
excuses, right? It wasn't myfault. It was them. Right. And
then was the key passing thebuck all the way down to the
serpent. And so now we get intothe scenario where, because you

(22:41):
have done this, this will happenis this kind of rhythm that we
see here, there's two ways youcan read this, right? You can
either read this as, okay, thesituation we had before, didn't
work clearly right? It brokedown. So here is now the new way
that I want you to operate inthis created world. That could

(23:03):
be one way you read it the otherway would be just like before
reset. If you eat from this treelike you will die like he has
that knowledge know what's goingto happen, is now foreshadowing
these things that are about tohappen. That because this has
happened, this will now be thenew normal because you made this
choice. This will not be yourcircumstance. How do people in
the Bible scholar communityparse those things apart? And

(23:24):
what's I guess the most true wayto read it not in the sense of
like the stamp of truth, butlike what is? What is true to
the text? What is the texttrying to communicate?

Jason Alexander (23:33):
Yeah. Is this prescribing? Is this is this
God's answer? Will goingforward? What I'd like is for
you to do this, or is it sayingbecause of what you've done
going forward, you'll end updoing this. And those are two
totally different outcomes interms of practice, and the way

(23:54):
that the story of Genesisunfolds. And I think you have to
keep that in view. All of thesethings will be played out
throughout the narrative ofGenesis, especially beginning in
chapter 12. through the end ofthe book with the story of
Israel, you see a lot of thesedynamics being being played out.
The first thing I think worthworth paying attention to here

(24:18):
is the idea of troublesome laborand pregnancies. And that is the
first bit of this new realitythat affects the woman. He says
I will greatly multiply yourpain and childbearing in pain

(24:39):
you shall bring forth children,you're left with the impression
that the problem that the womanwill face now is when she has
children, that that moment willbe physically painful. Now it
says you know, I will increaseour will multiply your pain was

(25:02):
there pain before, I wouldimagine there probably was, I
think we have this vision ofthese chapters of Genesis, that
everything was just so perfectthat you could never stub your
toe. Giving birth was athoroughly pleasant experience.
But you know, I'm not I'm notsure that's the case. It's not
the point that's being madehere. But I will greatly

(25:24):
increase your pain. And thewords here are bigger than just
physical pain. But the wholenotion of conceiving a child,
you know, and carrying thatchild full term, delivering the
child, and then raising thatchild will be a challenge in the
new world that's being formed byhuman choice and decisions to go

(25:50):
against what God has done. Thisis setting forth a whole new
reality, where it's going to bedifficult to have a family, it's
not going to happen easily. AndEve will learn that firsthand
when her sons kills her otherson, the whole family affair has
been, you know, soaked in inpain and difficulty. And this is

(26:15):
a theme or you could say athread that gets pulled
throughout the biblical story.
And I could go on a rant aboutthat. But women struggling at
key moments within the story ofof Israel, with infertility and
barrenness, and that realityserving as a backdrop for God's
bringing about his will. It'show it unfolds. So women are

(26:36):
sitting at the center of howthings move forward. So that the
idea of having a family isbrought into this, you'll bring
forth kids with great pain. Andwe won't have to wait very long
to see that that unfold.

Travis Albritton (26:53):
So you're saying that this is not a verse
that identifies epidurals assinful behavior, because it is
counter to God's intent.

Jason Alexander (27:01):
I don't think that that God wants now for it
to be painful to have kids. Soif you, if you take any sort of
anesthesia, when delivering,you're going against God's new
plan for creation, that feelslike a stretch I, I think that's

(27:23):
missing again, sort of therhetorical strategy, also of the
book of Genesis, we're not justtalking about something like
what happens in the birthingroom, but the whole enterprise
of having a family. what's soamazing about this, to me, is
that if what I'm saying is true.
And I wouldn't be saying if Ididn't think it was true, I
think that's what's happeninghere in the text, what God is

(27:43):
setting forth as the newreality, born of choosing a
different route to wisdom,whatever creating this new world
effectively, is God is alsosetting the backdrop for which
he will be a primary actor,right, he's setting the stage, a
God's will. And jumping offpoint will be from the very

(28:06):
place where things went horriblywrong. And so what we're seeing
as a curse, God will turn into ablessing. So that's the thing,
you take these verses in avacuum, you can contort them
into, into some kind of, youknow, whatever system of
theological thinking, but totake these verses as they sit
within the within a largercontext of the Bible, they mean

(28:29):
more than just what we want themto mean.

Travis Albritton (28:34):
Well, and I think that's hopefully what
we're trying to do here, rightis pull back the curtain and
say, let's look at this in thegrand scheme of the biblical
narrative and story to make surethat the conclusions we pull are
consistent with what we see withthe rest of the Bible. Now,
another fun misreading of verse16, is that it is God's desire

(28:56):
for women to desire theirhusband, some translations say
your desire will be for yourhusband. Others say your desire
shall be contrary to yourhusbands. And when we read that
in English, we think, oh, likeshe's pining after him. Like
she's, she has a crush on Adam.
And that's now a part of the newreality, but that word desire
help us make sense of thatbecause that same word shows up

(29:19):
in the next story between Cainand Abel.

Jason Alexander (29:24):
Yeah, you're right. It shows up to other
times in Hebrew Scripture. Andthe next time will be in the
story of Cain and Abel, forthose who don't remember, it's a
horrible story, but the olderbrother kills his younger
brother. And as he's thinkingabout doing this thing, he has
this meeting with with God andGod says to him, a crouching

(29:49):
demon at your door. You must itsdesire is for you, but you must
master it. And it's a reallyinteresting verse because Cuz
it's like a window into thestruggle of this jealous older
brother who's thinking ofkilling his brother, and God
says it right at your doorstep.
And now, the word is a crouchingdemon or sin is at your door is

(30:11):
another way you could translatethat. But the idea is that now,
what the embodiment of evil, thething that causes stumbling and
God's good world is notportrayed as a serpent, but as
sin or as a, you know, a demon,crouching there. And it's like
it's lying and wait at yourdoorstep, so that when you, you

(30:32):
know, you head out for work inthe morning, you know, Honey,
I'm leaving for work and youstep out, it's right there
waiting to gobble you up. Andit's desire is for you. And it's
the same word that you have inGenesis 316, your desire will be
for your husband in there.
Obviously, the desire isn't agood affectionate desire, it's

(30:52):
not seen as at your door, and itthinks you're sexy or something.
Right? Like it thinks it has acrush on you. It's more its
desire is to devour you. Buthere's what's interesting is
that you must master it, whichholds out this wonderful hope
that sin can be an evil can bepushed back by human obedience

(31:13):
to God. So in Genesis 316, thewoman is told to the woman, your
desire will be for your husband,but he shall rule over you and
that rule is the same word. Godtells Cain, you should rule over
the sin, right? You should, it'sdesires for you, but you shall
rule over it. No, you don't wantto push this too far. But it's

(31:38):
interesting that the way humansare to interact with sin and
temptation is similar to the waya husband and wife will interact
with each other isn't that it'sfrightening. It's like how we're
supposed to treat sin by rulingover it. Husbands will treat

(31:59):
wives like that, and wives willtreat husbands like sin treats
us isn't it, it's just again, Idon't want to push it too far.
But there is some some overlapthere, that the way that this is
being portrayed, it's just it'sdestructive. It's interesting.
nlt takes control here. Thatcould be the idea that going

(32:19):
forward, you're gonna want tocall the shots or this could be
sexual, you know, this is theother instance where this is
used as in song, Song of Songs,chapters seven, verse 11, in
Hebrew might be verse 10. Thereit's a positive thing is that,
you know, I desire my lover, asexual desire, but it seems like
whatever it is, it's, it's bad.
You have an unhealthy desire,you're going to have kids, it's

(32:42):
going to be tough to have kids,but your desire is going to be
for your husband.

Travis Albritton (32:47):
Well, if we've placed this as a midpoints, from
what we've read before, andwhat's about to happen in the
future. And we talked about howGenesis two paints this portrait
of an ideal human society thatis completely flat, there's no
hierarchy, there's nodomineering over one another.
There's no one image bearerruling over another image

(33:09):
bearer. And this is a sharpcontrast to that. Yeah, right,
that now there's a powerstruggle. Now, these two
complimentary figures that aresupposed to be working hand in
hand together are now at oddswith each other. And then this
is going to be the state ofthings. And it doesn't take very
long for that to be the casebetween men and women.

(33:30):
Especially when you get tofigures like Lamech if you think
some of the figures in the 20thcentury, committed atrocities
riots, you know the name brainguy, Stalin, Hitler. Just wait
till you wait till you readabout Lamech. Yeah, guy, Rick, I
had issues. Yeah, that guy.

Corina Espejo (33:47):
I love this. And I think people are gonna get
lost in the sauce, right? And inthis podcast about answering the
question, what does the Biblesay about women in the church?
And we still have one morepassage to kind of get into one
thing, I think that I'm hearing,if we can segue, I'm gonna I'm
gonna attempt to segue here. Socentral themes, and again, I'm

(34:09):
going to keep coming back to thecentral themes, because I think
that gives me so much clarity aswe get into these crazy
questions. This narrative herethat we're looking at Genesis
one, two, and three, it is verycomplex. And it's complex. It
seems like because, you know,and I don't know what the word
for is, but as a speech languagepathologist, I'm gonna say super
linguistic, right? We have theselike words between the words and

(34:29):
in even within the words. Andwhat it does is it creates so
much dialogue between meaningand commenting on humanity. And
like you mentioned, it doescomment on gender. So it'd be
silly to say, That's notsomething that's here, but it
does it in a way that it haslevels. And so if I'm coming
back to the level that isconsistent, and central, and

(34:51):
I'll say it that way, Central,right. We have God the Creator
and he is our Creator, and wegather and learn our identity.
Our vocation or wisdom from fromthis creator, that's, that was
God's intent. And so when we wewrestle with these questions,
okay, was it God's desire thatwomen has to have painful labor
pains, right? Is it God's desirethat men have to sweat through

(35:15):
manual labor to put food on thetable? Right? Is it God's desire
for there to be a power strugglebetween men and women? But the
reality is, I think what I'mhearing, that was never God's
intent, his intent was actuallyfor us and what we're saying,
okay, is it a curse, it is aconsequence, it is a natural
byproduct. And again, this iswhat I'm hearing, Adam and Eve

(35:35):
said, I want to be able todecide for myself, what is good,
and what is not. And so God'salmost saying, Hey, here's,
here's this consequence, you arenow going to desire things other
than me. And and, you know, whenreading Genesis three, so if I'm
looking at this, as we segueinto that next portion, when

(35:55):
reading Genesis three, what isthe one of the better questions,
if not best question to ask inorder to pull out God's message
in the passage? I want you tohold on to that question. Yeah,
don't don't answer it yet. Canwe read this next passage? And
then come back to that question,do it yeah. Okay. And so Genesis
three, and again, for those ofyou listening at home, I am
reading the NLT version, butcertainly read different

(36:17):
versions, differenttranslations, and I just happen
to be reading NLT today. Solet's jump into Genesis three,
verse 20, the man Adam named hiswife Eve, because she would be
the mother of all who live, andthe Lord God made clothing from
animal skins for Adam and hiswife, then the Lord God said,
Look, the human beings havebecome like us, knowing both

(36:38):
good and evil. What if theyreach out take fruit from the
tree of life and eat it, thenthey will live forever. So the
Lord God banished them from theGarden of Eden. And he sent Adam
out to cultivate the ground fromwhich he had been made, after
sending them out the Lord Godstation, mighty cherubim, to the
east of the Garden of Eden. Andhe placed a flaming sword that

(36:58):
flashed back and forth to guardthe way to the tree of life.
Now, Adam had sexual relationswith his wife Eve, and she
became pregnant. When she gavebirth to Cain. She said, with
the Lord's help, I have produceda man. So all of this and we're
our nerdy selves are diving intoall these things. And I feel

(37:19):
like there are going to be someleaders who are like, I
literally just wanted to listenthis podcast because I just want
to know what what is the what'sup with women? What who out? Are
they there's a function in thechurch, and we just dived out.
So Betty, so many differenttitles I'm with Yeah. Yeah. So
let's, let's chat a little bitwhen reading Genesis three,
what's the best question to askin order to pull out God's

(37:40):
message in the passage?

Jason Alexander (37:42):
My question, and I find this to be an
important even introductorypoint for people who are just,
you know, becoming familiar withthe Bible, you know, someone who
wants a biblical vision ofcreation, you know, these, these
chapters have to be a part ofthat. And yeah, I think the
question, in my mind that'simportant is, you know, I think

(38:05):
it's the one you guys areasking, What went wrong? And how
bad is How bad is it? You know?
Or maybe you could say, Did itstart bad. And these chapters, I
think, set out to set forth anideal a reality, you know, God
had this plan for his goodworld. And humans were a big

(38:26):
part of that, that did not lastlong, because of bad choices, a
crafty serpent. And there'squestions with all of these. But
what now? Maybe that's the rightquestion. What do we do now?
Because Genesis three guides thereader out of that harmonious

(38:47):
world, right into the currentsituation, and it would be the
world that the initial readersof Genesis lived in as well.
It's a world where marriages arechallenging, and there is
oppression and there is humansruling over other humans and
death. And you know, it's, it'slife outside the garden. You

(39:11):
know, that's, that's where welive. And so I think the
comforting thing for me is thatyou said it, that wasn't what
God had hoped for. Nor is itwhat God will settle for. It's
it's not the end of the story,but it's also not the beginning.
And so what we have in Genesisthree isn't the reference point.

(39:31):
It's not like we're trying toget back to Genesis three, that
would be just a total missingthe mark. And I think that's the
point here that now thisunhealthy desire, however, we
want to talk about that in thisruling over his wife, it's bad.
It's it's bad. It's sad. It'snot what God was seeking. And

(39:52):
she's named Eve or you know,probably the name he means life
or is connected to life. It'sinteresting when they were just
simply eesh and Isha. Just thetwo words man or woman, right? I
mean, they're close man andwoman are each and he shall
communicate a kind of intimacyand closeness where now a DOM

(40:16):
and hava do not she's calledlife. Now remember, she's
created to help a dumb, keep andwork the garden, she's created
as a way of God bringing thegarden forward, bringing
creation and culture and all ofthat forward. And that's what
she's made for. That's what he'smade for. their vocation is big.

(40:38):
And it has to do with God'swill. But now she's, she's known
as life. Or she's been, youknow, it's like just a part of
what she does, which is, youknow, have sex and have
children. And now, you know, nowa single part of who she is as
being highlighted, it's seekingto set forth that human sin

(41:01):
creates a relational tear thatjust goes, it's like a virus,
right? It just goes haywire andgets a hold of every every thing
that a human could have arelationship with. Its ruin,
right? And you want to say as anatural consequence, but it's
also God exacting some kind ofpunishment as well for life

(41:21):
apart from his will. It's hishis world, right? He is the
Creator and judge of all of allthat he's made. He's a good and
loving creator and judge, butit's, but it's his world. And so
yeah, I don't think it'd be wiseto read Genesis three, and say,
This is what a marriage shouldlook like. Wives, you should be

(41:43):
really, you know, have a crushon your husband, husbands, you
gotta, you gotta rule her. Andthink about it, no, you'll get
to this. But when you come topassages later in Genesis, or
even the the practical passagesin the New Testament, where
women are called to besubmissive, and men are called
to be gentle, and, you know, diefor their wives. I mean, if you

(42:06):
think about what this new worldis, where it's like,
manipulation and ruling andcoercion and, you know,
oppressing one another, thenlook at the Christian marriage,
where they're being submissiveand gentle. It's like, the
Christian marriage is meant toenvision Genesis two, not
Genesis three, the fact thatwe're humble with one another,

(42:28):
the fact that we're gentle islike going in the opposite
direction that Genesis three isheaded this DC I don't know if
that makes sense. But so it'snot like submissions are a dirty
word. It's the opposite of thisdesire this, you know, if it's
some kind of control ormanipulation, and to be gentle
and to die for your spouse isthe opposite of ruling over so

(42:48):
the Christian marriage really isa picture of what God really was
hoping for, which is what weshould have been doing with each
other, or would have beenpresumably, under God's wisdom
all along. So Genesis three is aproblem. Not a prescription for
a better world. That's, that is,that's a mystery short well, and

Travis Albritton (43:11):
even when you are connecting, you know,
Genesis 223, where man is seeingIsha, right for the first time,
right? It reads totallydifferent than 320.

Jason Alexander (43:25):
Yeah.
Observation

Travis Albritton (43:27):
pletely differently, because then it's
almost like if one wasn'tenough, chapter four, verse one,
you get something just outthere. Yeah. Right. It's like,
you don't hear women saying,I've brought forth a man. Yeah.
When they give birth to a baby.

Jason Alexander (43:44):
Right? Yeah.
Yeah, picture like a full grownlike bearded. Like, yeah, total
total, like a lager or somethinglike that. the manliest. Man,
you're right. And I love thatyou pointed that out. Because
remember, when he firstencountered the woman, it blew
his mind. He's like, this isbetter than any of the
creatures, you know, you let mename like she's the best one.

(44:06):
And then when this thingtranspires when this, you know,
whenever falling victim beingfoolish, taking from the tree of
knowledge, now, it's the woman'sin my way, you know, like, Look
what you've done by giving methis woman. And so that, yeah,
that the tables turn reallyquickly. It's not valorizing

(44:28):
that though, you can't go fromthis, and say, and this is why
in the church, women should besubmissive because men are
supposed to rule over them.

Corina Espejo (44:40):
And I think the more accurate if I'm going to be
honest, I think the moreaccurate reality is like, well
see, this is the way that God issaying it's gonna be so just let
it happen. Right, totally. Yeah.
And I think that's more accuratethan to say, let's do this,
everybody. Let's press each.
It's more. Sorry. That's the wayit is, everybody Men are gonna,
you know, rather than no let'slet's actively go back to

(45:04):
creators heart and will for uswhich, which I love that we're
saying God created in you owehim created us to complement and
help each other and within ourdifferences right to celebrate
those differences but it alsoand maybe and is more
appropriate and that we get toshare mutual identity and charge

(45:24):
and work together from thatwe've been given from that
crater. That's what we aim fornot well, it's okay, we all are
going to go ahead and rule overeach other and going to be power
struggles is just the way it is.
Right, right. Yeah,

Jason Alexander (45:37):
right settle.
But you know, again, not to stepon the preaching, you know, the
podium here, but you know,again, that's, that's the nature
of sin is we settle, we see thereality of our lives and we lose
a vision that God has. And weknow as Christians, there's
little we can do about oursinfulness. We need help from
God in a way that I don't evenknow if Adam and Eve grasped you

(46:00):
know, I don't know if I'vegrasped. But certainly that
doesn't mean you shouldn't try.
It doesn't mean you shouldn'ttry to work with what God wants
and envision a better world thanthis one of oppression. The last
thing I'll say, again, likeGenesis isn't getting rid of

(46:22):
differences between men andwomen. It's not seeking to do
that it's diversity and unityand mutual love. The goal of
Christianity, like some questsin our current moment would have
us believe the Bible is notlet's get back to some kind of
ambiguous androgyny wherethere's, you know, there's no

(46:43):
man or woman. That's not thebiblical vision. We do play
different parts we do and arecapable, equipped by God to do
different things. I don't thinkthat should be a problem, unless
you insert some kind ofhierarchy into that.

Corina Espejo (47:01):
And that's consistent with the narrative,
right? God takes chaos andambiguity and creates order.
Right.

Jason Alexander (47:07):
Right, exactly.

Travis Albritton (47:08):
To wrap up, there are some common
observations that are made somemore on the mark than others, as
far as taking what we read fromGenesis three and applying it in
a modern church leadershipsetting. And so I just want to
throw these by you, Jason, andjust get your thoughts on,
whether that is a good thing, ora good thought that is true to

(47:31):
the story of the text. Or ifit's perhaps misguided or
reading into it more than weshould. The first one being that
the fall sin did not creategender roles. It's simply
corrupted them.

Jason Alexander (47:45):
Yeah. Well, I don't know if you'd want to call
desiring and ruling roles.
That's a challenge. Like, again,in Israel, women and men play
different roles in in oursociety they do. And that's not
a bad thing. But I don't know ifit corrupted the roles, so much
as it inserted animosity,jealousy, manipulation into

(48:07):
those Oh, okay. So yeah, I guessyou're describing corruption.
That's, that's true. But I don'tknow that it took away the roles
and said, Well, before, youwould have done x, but now
you're going to do why I don'tthink that's kind of the idea.
It's more just what you wouldalways do will be more
difficult. Does that make sense?

Travis Albritton (48:27):
It makes sense? Well, because it's, if
you just read chapter three andsay, Okay, this is a bad thing
that has happened, right. Butit's a corruption of the good
thing that God intended. Andyou're kind of like reverse
engineering backwards to goodpoint, well, if this is the fall
enrolled, and this is the idealrole, which unfortunately,
Genesis two doesn't really giveus that kind of clarity around

(48:48):
this question.

Jason Alexander (48:48):
Right. But Paul might, Jesus does. You're right,
though. I'm in the ministry. Andyou know, I, I feel comfortable
with that. pastorelli I think weshould be aiming for a vision of
roles, or relationality. That'sbetter than Genesis three.

Travis Albritton (49:08):
And if you're listening, and you're curious,
we are going to jump into allthat stuff. We're just going in
order. Alright, good. So so wemight be asking questions that
we do plan on answering in thefuture. We're not just going to
lead all these, you know,hanging chads up in the air.

Jason Alexander (49:20):
Yeah, get someone else fired, not me.

Travis Albritton (49:24):
But it is important for us to be clear
about like, okay, maybe this issomething that Bible teaches,
right, but perhaps isn'tsomething that we should pull
directly from this story. Wewant to make sure that we're
using the Bible correctly.
Alright. Observation number two.
In Genesis, chapter three, Adamwas held accountable first or
addressed first by God afterthey eat the fruit. So that

(49:48):
means he is in charge.

Jason Alexander (49:49):
Yeah. I mean, you have to read that in you
could, but there's nothing therethat warrants that reading. I
don't believe that. That wouldbe a case where we'd want Be
just honest with ourselves like,that's what, that's what we are
choosing to see. You're gonnahave a hard time finding someone
who makes a living at writingabout Genesis to say that.

Travis Albritton (50:12):
Well, I think that's pretty consistent with
what Corina and I have studiedout, but it is a common
observation. Yeah, I want tomake sure yeah, kind of
addressing these things as we aswe see them. The next one. And
we kind of talked about this alittle bit in the last episode.
But this idea that Adam wascreated first, and that
firstborn nature gives himauthority over Eve.

Jason Alexander (50:35):
Yeah, again, there's not clarity on that
point from these verses, youcould see why someone might
suggest that and I guess theassumption would be that the
authors of Genesis, assume thatfirst was best. But if that were

(50:56):
the case, I'd want to presentthe many instances where it
seems like that assumption isoverturned in Genesis, think of
Jacob and Esau with Jacob walksaway with the blessing or Joseph
Judah, you have instances in theBible in Genesis specifically

(51:18):
where the technical phraseprimogeniture is undercut, I
wouldn't feel comfortable sayingbecause Eve came from Adam. He's
better or he's in charge.

Travis Albritton (51:29):
Right? And I guess the twist on that would be
well, in 223, doesn't he, quoteunquote, name her or call her
woman showing a similar level ofauthority over woman as he has
over the animals he just named?

Jason Alexander (51:42):
I have a tough one with that. There's an
instance where is it Hagar namesGod. So does that communicate
that hegar is over God? I don'tthink that the naming of the
woman in Genesis to calling herIsha is a display of him being
better if it was he probablywould have opted for a title

(52:05):
that was dissimilar to his own.
You know, I think the fact thatit's each and each show was
meant to communicatecommonality, as well as
difference it was also meant tocommunicate were were of the
same sort, right? It wasn't tosay, you're like the rest of the
wildlife. Now, when the namesare in Genesis three, that's a

(52:25):
different story. There might bethey're getting closer to him
taking some authority over her.

Corina Espejo (52:33):
And I think the question I have, and I wonder,
and there probably isn't a clearanswer, is God giving Adam
permission to exhibit authorityover Eve in that verse in three?
Because, again, I think theconclusions I find growing up is
just that, right? Because Adamdid that God is giving
permission, or God is saying,this is how it should be. versus

(52:54):
this is what Adam did as aresult of the fall?

Jason Alexander (52:57):
That's a great question. I almost read it like,
you're going to have to, becauseshe's going to have desire, and
you're going to have to, again,it's describing a dead
situation. That's why there'smore discussion that needs to
take place with its connectionsto chapter four with the story
of Cain, but the fact that ourrelationship to sin is described

(53:20):
in a similar way that marriagesdescribed doesn't leave a good
taste in your mouth. But I don'tthink it's like God, like
empowering now, this new call.
Remember, before Adam, I set youup to rule over all the
wildlife. But now I also wantyou now you're gonna roll over
people. That's just part of it.
I think we're dealing more withFallout and judgment than God

(53:44):
changing his mind about what'sbest.

Corina Espejo (53:46):
Yeah, what we're saying is our hope for humanity
lies in our singles.

Jason Alexander (53:52):
Well, that's another discussion. I would want
to say yes, actually, for anumber of theological reasons.
That's

Travis Albritton (53:58):
a great thing to say, point number four, that
is often drawn from this story,Genesis two and chapter three,
which we talked about yesterday,but I want to reiterate today is
that he was created as a helperfor Adam. So then that
translates to in modern ministryroles. Women should always be in

(54:21):
a supportive but not frontfacing role. Because that was
the dynamic and what aserrepresents speaking about women
more broadly.

Jason Alexander (54:31):
I mean, this this is really where, you know,
churches don't get alonganymore, depending how you
answer that one. Again, if we goback to the context of why the
woman even exists, it's avocation to keep until the
garden. I mean, that's, that'sthe kind of help she is. So I

(54:54):
think you have to do businesswith that vision of what help
is. Yeah, I think withoutlooking at Some more passages
specifically from Paul, I don'twant to say much more than that.
But you shouldn't read fromGenesis chapter two, that a
woman is what do we say beforean assistant to the man's

(55:16):
desires, she helps him carry outGod's Will by tilling and
working the garden. So we'regonna have to, we're going to
talk about what that means in aministry setting. But I don't
think you're going to get youranswers for what that means for
reading Genesis chapter two.

Corina Espejo (55:34):
Yeah. And I think that's the that's the beauty of
it, right? We're just here,everybody, for everybody was
like, I am ready to dumb downwith this podcast. Okay, just,
can we be clear here, Genesisone, two, and three, it would be
proper exegetical reading, tolook at this and say, You know
what, it actually doesn't say,for example, again, this is me
bringing what I've heard in thepast, however, 3030 years of my

(55:56):
life, it actually doesn't sayhere, not that it doesn't say in
the Bible, totally. But itdoesn't say here, if I'm pulling
out from what God has given mefrom the narrative in Genesis
123. Be careful, it's not makingcommentary that women are only
allowed to do administrativetasks. And this is me speaking,
from my experience, people willread these verses and say, we'll

(56:18):
see. Women are really justsupposed to plan events, teach
our children's ministries, anddo administrative tasks, because
they are the helper, they're thesuitable helper. But that would
be improper exegetical readinghere.

Jason Alexander (56:34):
The thing is the casualty or like, the
collateral damage in thisdiscussion is what you just
said, teaching the kids doingadministrative tasks, we imagine
a hierarchy within church work,like one is better than the
other. And so that whole mindsetis wrong. And that fuel some of
this discussion, in myexperience, where it's like,

(56:55):
well, how can men get to preach?
But there's a part of, there'san understanding of the kingdom
of God that want to say, Well,what made you think that
preaching was so much betterthan teaching the kids, and that
kind of worldly thinking needsto be addressed as well? Because
it's unfortunate when we talkabout women doing administrative
tasks. That is, shouldn't be tosay that administrative task is

(57:18):
a lesser kind of work. Becauseif I know anything about being
in ministry, you don'tadministrate? Well, you hurt
people. If you have more than afew people, you know,
administration is is important.
teaching the kids is vitallyimportant, my goodness, like, I

(57:40):
mean, so if we're looking atthose tasks as being lesser,
then we're immediately going tolook at the women, or men who
occupy those roles as beinglesser or not getting a fair
shake. And so I feel like, ifit's the case, that women are
administrators and teaching thekids, I would want to say, well,

(58:01):
that's awesome. Like, that'samazing. Like, that's part of
what it means. But what I don'twant you to hear me saying is
that that means then that awoman couldn't teach a lesson or
something like that. Yeah,that's not what I'm trying to
say here. But I think we have tobe careful that when we talk
about roles, the entitlementsand self aggrandizing nature of

(58:26):
the discussion, the highlyindividualistic nature of this
discussion that's being hadoutside the church, I want to be
very careful to protect thechurch from operating along
those lines. And we can start tolook down on things that I don't
think God would look down on.
That's more of a sermon than afine exegetical point. But yet
to your question, my opinion isthat these verses are telling

(58:51):
you that a woman should doadministration in a man should
give the vision for the church,I don't see that in these
verses,

Corina Espejo (59:00):
just food for thought, because I hear that and
I think, unfortunately, in Yes,don't plan to the power struggle
in saying one task is moreimportant than the other is more
more highly thought of than theother. I love that. I think
where I've seen again, realitywhere I've seen this thinking go
is not and again, I grew up in achurch where I was like, our

(59:21):
kingdom teachers are amazing,just as more of a you know,
administrative is amazing, or Isee it I think being against,
and this is what I'll say, likeagainst the narrative that I'm
hearing. You're not a woman, ifyour only gift is such and such
a thing, right? That you have aplace in the kingdom of God, if
you do administrative tasks, ifyou plan social events, and if

(59:42):
you and if you can't do thosethings, or those are not your
strengths, or you don't thinkGod is calling you to that then
you don't have a place in thechurch and vice versa, men being
forced, who may not have thegifting to teach and depreciable
if you don't Well, there's noplace for you. And that I think
is where I've seen that goalright more than the power I
think the world puts that powerstruggle more than the church

(01:00:03):
does.

Jason Alexander (01:00:04):
Totally, I think you're exactly right. And
this is where we don't likethis. And it comes back to
certain assumptions about whatthe Bible maybe say what the
Bible is what we do with it. Butwe're looking for the Bible to
function as some kind ofblueprint for how to do all
these things. And I think thisis one area where we're going to

(01:00:27):
have to be present with God inprayer and humility and careful
attention to the biblical text,and to the history of the church
and make careful lovingdecisions that pay honor to
God's vision, which Genesis oneand two, I think lies sets out
for us. So I think you're right,when we're wanting the Bible to

(01:00:50):
tell us that a man can't do xand a woman can't do you know at
why, when it comes to ministrytasks, that's putting a lot of
pressure on scripture to besomething that it's not, and

Corina Espejo (01:01:03):
so much grace and mercy for our leaders who that
is a tough quote, like, even aswe're talking about these. And
for those listening, please haveso much grace and compassion. I
mean, these are some reallytricky, complex, and not super
clear passages. And this, wereonly in Genesis forget about
when we get to the other ones.
Be patient Be gracious, theseare hard questions. And these

(01:01:25):
are hard answers that I thinkleaders they feel, and I think
there's a pressure for them tohave to answer.

Travis Albritton (01:01:33):
So yeah, well, and hopefully this will help you
feel a little more equipped, andat least get a sense of the
battlefield as it's played outin front of you. So that you
kind of have some, some grasp ofwhat's real to kind of hold on
to as you navigate this. Jason,what a wonderful way to tease
something we're talking about ina few episodes, this idea of
blueprint thinking versustheological thinking and how

(01:01:55):
those impact we read the Bible,but we won't give away too much
yet, we'll just have to whetyour appetite, you'll set to
stick around for those realquick some takeaways to kind of
consolidate the things we'vetalked about. We've already
talked about the broad theme ofGenesis One, two and three, is
we see God's good creation thathumanity has not been good

(01:02:16):
stewards of, and that there areconsequences that we are still
dealing with. As a result ofthat. We do see that men and
women, male and female arecreated to work together to be
priestly figures in that gardento expand the boundaries of the
garden to work in the garden toperfect it over time, that our

(01:02:39):
role as image bearers andtillers is to do that. But then,
inevitably, when sin comes in,we now introduce things like
power struggles, tension,coercion, deceit among each
other. And we're still grapplingwith the effects of that. But
there is hope. If we lookforward to Jesus, and we look

(01:03:03):
forward to what we know, he doesin his work on the cross, that
there is an opportunity toredeem at least parts of what we
see in Genesis two within thechurch, which is something we
get to look forward to. Now ifyou want to get the guide, the
Bible study guide for all thestuff we talked about today. All
you have to do is go to womenchurch, podcast calm and you can

(01:03:24):
sign up for that newsletter. Notonly will you get the Bible
study guides for each of theepisodes that we go through, so
you can do your own Bible studyand share them with your leaders
in your small groups and suchand such. But we'll also let you
know when new episodes come outso you don't miss any new
episodes. In the next episode,we're actually going to do a
little Old Testament Biblesurvey, we're going to look at
some women that are prominentlyfeatured in the Old Testament

(01:03:45):
and see what we can learn fromthose stories to really try and
peel back the heart of God whenit comes to women in his
creation.