September 22, 2021 • 54 mins
In this episode, Jason Alexander joins us to discuss the prominent role women played in Israelite society and what leaders like Deborah and Esther can tell us about God's plan to use women for his earthly rescue mission.
Questions we'll answer in this episode:
- Are women seen as less important than men in the OT?
- Why does God focus so much of the story on women who cannot have children?
- Were Deborah and Esther chosen to lead simply because there were no qualified men?
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Episode Transcript
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Travis Albritton (00:01):
Welcome back to the women in the church
podcast where we take a freshlook at what the Bible says
about women in church for the ICo see if you've been following
along, you know, the usualsuspects myself, Travis
Albritton, the lovely Corinaessayhow as well,
Corina Espejo (00:15):
yes. Hello.
Travis Albritton (00:16):
And then Jason Alexander back for a punishment
Jason Alexander (00:19):
once again.
That's right.
Travis Albritton (00:21):
So Corina, you had a wonderful thought for how
to lead off today's episode, whydon't you go ahead and just jump
right into that?
Corina Espejo (00:28):
Yeah, I think for me, I know, all three of us, I'm
sure in setting out this topicas well as many difficult
topics, there can be this panicor confusion. That leaves us
feeling and I believe the termyou use, Jason was skeptical
despair. So we are not ignorantthat some of you may be feeling
(00:49):
a bit of despair, you might befeeling a lot of things. But we
would like to offer you just adifferent perspective. And
Jason, you quoted you had aquote that I loved. Can you read
that for us again?
Jason Alexander (00:59):
Yeah, sure.
That was Christian Smith's book,the Bible made impossible by
that sounds like a great, greatdevotional reading. So okay, the
quote I had read you was sort ofhis defense of the
deconstruction, that thathappens in his book, but he says
my point here is not to drivereaders into skeptical despair,
(01:20):
about learning anything from theBible about how to live
faithfully today. My pointrather, is to undermine
simplistic and divisiveinterpretive habits of some
bibble assists who easily pointto this or that practice of
God's people recorded in theBible and pronounce that the
same practices binding onChristians today, because it is
(01:43):
clearly quote, biblical. If weare to more intelligently and
consistently sort throughscriptural practices in order to
learn how to live today, we needa stronger, more coherent
hermeneutical Guide to fosterdiscernment. So that's more more
technical than I thought itwould be. You know, I'm not sure
(02:04):
I want to agree with everythinghe said there. But the spirit of
that I think, is reallyimportant that the goal of
examining biblical texts andthinking through what we thought
we had understood so perfectly,is not to make the Bible less
understandable or to take it outof our hands and say, Oh, you
(02:26):
can't you can't do that. Becauseit's, it's ancient. And you need
to understand all of the ancientworld, if you're going to do
anything with the Bible. That'snot the goal. As someone who
teaches the Bible, I want toplace scripture in our hands in
a way that empowers us to seethe love and goodness of God
that's revealed there in and soI like that he says, simplistic
(02:51):
and divisive interpretivehabits, and that would be
approaching the Bible, you know,with like an overly legal mind,
I think we have to learn to cometo Scripture, understand that it
is somewhat foreign, but thenmoving on to encounter God. That
is that's revealed there inScripture. So for me, the goal
(03:13):
is faithful living before God,we read Scripture, not to
assemble some kind of puzzle, oreven to just think,
theologically, but so that wemight know and honor God. And so
the worst readings of all arethose which do not culminate in
(03:35):
faithfulness. If we're readingscripture, just to sort of sort
out some ancient text, thenwe're really missing the point
here. The goal of Scripture isfaithfulness before God. So any
any approach that doesn't landthere, shame on us.
Corina Espejo (03:56):
Yeah, and quick confession. I know I've been
there looking at the Scriptureand maybe treating it with you
know, that legal mind like youtalked about, but I think the
moment that it that changed forme to approach the Bible, and
again, it's it's something aboutit, it honors my humanity to not
have all the answers right. Andit allowed me to enjoy right,
enjoy learning and enjoy. Justpursuing God's heart and his
(04:19):
will on things. Yeah, it'sexciting.
Jason Alexander (04:21):
Yeah, the growing comfortable with
mystery. You know, it's notsomething we love. But it is
something we have to do nothingabout the God we serve should
lead us to assume that we'rejust going to put them in our
pocket and move on. Like, we'rejust going to get a hold of them
and, and then we figured it out.
Now let's move on and help otherpeople figure it out like that.
(04:42):
It's, it's bigger than that thesort of participation that is
involved in reading the Biblewith Divine Will requires
creativity. It requiresdiscussion, and more than
anything and then this can getleft in the dust sometime but it
requires Prayer to be prayerfulto take these texts into, to
seek the God who is alive atevery time and in every place
(05:07):
with every people. He's not justa figure from history, we read
about scriptures trying to, inmy mind, point beyond itself to
the living God's scriptures notsaying come and read us and
figure it all out. It's saying,Come and look at God. And that's
going to involve some nonanswers at points. Sorry, I
cannot live forever about that.
(05:30):
I'm passionate about thisdiscussion. Because it's the
difference between faithfulinspired readings and
applications and a kind of deadlegalism that that inevitably
comes when you're not seeing Godin the text
Travis Albritton (05:48):
well, and leaves you wanting more and on a
really dangerous precipice,where the certainty that we can
build around our understandingof Scripture, right can leave us
a false sense of security.
Totally.
Jason Alexander (06:01):
Yeah, dude. And again, I have speculated that
the reason we read aboutlegalism in the lives of
religious people in the Gospel,the reason that comes up so
much, is because that's what weall can potentially, you know,
we can become that. And it'sinteresting, Jesus never really
(06:25):
challenged like, it seems coredoctrine of Pharisees. He wasn't
like, Hey, you believe the wrongthings. It was more like your
reading is too small, like I'mthinking of the famous one is
john seven. He says, you know,you search the Scriptures all
day. But you refuse to come tome. And of course, I'm
(06:46):
paraphrasing, but I'm thereferent of those various
scriptures that you devour on adaily basis, and yet you do not
see me. So for all of yourcareful study, you've totally
missed the point. And I thinkthose are there as explanations
offered for why Jesus ultimatelywas, was not loved by the
(07:10):
religious elite. But they'realso there, I think, as warnings
that that's what you can become,if you don't keep an openness to
the God who will surprise you.
And by surprise, I don't mean,contradict himself. But the
danger of that sort of legalismis it shrinks your God into it?
What do they call it? When youstage butterflies, like you pin
(07:32):
them, you know, like you, andyou just put God under a
microscope, and you got him, yougot a handle on him. And that's,
I think Jesus is trying toconfront that kind of thinking,
but that all of that could bevery relevant to a discussion
about gender. Because we cantend to treat just a few like, I
mean, at the end of the day,we're all only interested in
(07:55):
what five passages and they'reall coming from the Apostle
Paul. And that's what we reallywant to know about. And that's
my point. Like, you can't dothat, you're gonna have to take
more on board than just a fewthings that Paul has said.
Anyways, alright, and thesermon.
Travis Albritton (08:14):
And I think that's a perfect transition to
what we're going to discusstoday, we've spent the last
couple of episodes going likeverse by verse through the first
three chapters of Genesis. Nowwe want to pull back our scope
to the first two thirds of theBible and look at how did gender
play a role in the the nation,the people of Israel, the goal
(08:37):
being that we just want toreally see like, what is God's
heart towards men and women,that as he is shaping this
people, as he's shaping theIsraelites into a society of
priests that are then going tobe a light to the world, that is
going to teach us a lot abouthow God thinks about the way
that men and women interact, howthey work together, to achieve
(09:02):
his purposes, and point us inthe direction of us today as
Christians living in the NewCovenant, bringing us closer and
closer to Genesis two, right,closer and closer into the
fulfillment of the kingdombreaking in to creation, and
that we get to partner in thattakeover mission by living out
(09:23):
those Genesis two principles. asdisciples today, I might have
just given away like a bunch ofstuff at the end, but you'll
just have to stick around forall the details. So Jason, why
don't you just kind of kick usoff by in this might be this
might feel a little ticky tack,but the difference between
patrilineal and patriarchal. SoI think the patriarchy that's a
(09:45):
buzzword nowadays. And so it'seasy to look back at ancient
civilizations, ancientsocieties, even in the Bible,
and say, Oh, that was a maledominated society, where women
were essentially just babymaking machines. We don't see
that in the Bible. So So walk usbetween the difference between
patrilineal patriarchal, and howthat played out in the way that
(10:06):
God set up the nation of Israel,
Jason Alexander (10:08):
I think, yeah, you're right, the word
patriarchy, it communicates, youknow, a very heavy handedness.
And the world in which Israellived and breathed, it was ruled
by the Father. And that's whatthe word means that Father
ruled, or, you know, dad is thehead of the household men are
(10:32):
running the show. And so it'snot as if Israel's introducing
that, like, here's a great, youknow, a way to structure
society. It's just a given fact,it's the way that the ancient
world operated. And withoutputting everyone to sleep, I'll
mention something like the codeof Hammurabi, and you look at
(10:53):
patriarchy in a setting likethat, and the Bible is in stark
relief, in many instances tothat patriarchal culture. The
way that patriarchy can beconnected to women being
oppressed is something I think,is on the radar for Biblical
authors. Even just the waywithin biblical what we'd call
(11:16):
biblical law that bears itselfout. So it's patriarchy, a bad
word. I guess that's an open tointerpretation. There is a way
of understanding fathers takingcare of a family that's not
oppressive and bad. And I think,given that Israel is moving
around and living in a culturewhere patriarchy is the norm, I
(11:39):
think their vision of the way offatherhood, and being a husband
or being a son, just being amale is more God like so it gets
redemptive in that sense,without trying to make a point
that men are better than women,which is the point patriarchy
(12:00):
seems to make over and over theBible, I don't see. It's not an
endorsement of patriarchy.
That's it's not saying this iswhat God is looking for it
rather, it's real people in realplaces, and God is doing
something big through them. Andthere are ways in which Israel's
life and faith subverts thosecultural norms.
Travis Albritton (12:28):
That make sense. I don't know if that
does, it does well. And to myunderstanding, patriarchal
simply means in the context of afamily unit, husband is the head
of the household. Yeah.
patrilineal is in reference tohow families are traced over
time, right, specifically forthe allotment of land, which was
a big piece of entering thepromised land for the
(12:49):
Israelites, right that if youare giving sons and daughters
and marriage to other people indifferent tribes and clans,
right, and God has alsoinstituted that every seven
years you need to return familylands, then how are you going to
keep track of all of that, ifit's just all over the place,
it's much cleaner to say, we gotto choose one or the other,
(13:11):
we're going to trace it throughthe males line. And that's how
we're going to keep track ofeverything.
Jason Alexander (13:16):
And that also wouldn't be odd. In the ancient
world. Yeah. But it meant thatif you were a young woman, you
growing up in the household, andfather as the head of the
household is another discussionworth having, because the Bible
sets forth an image of themother in the household that she
carries quite a bit of weightand teaching both boys and
(13:38):
girls. And so as partners in thehousehold, mom and dad did carry
authority. But if you're a youngwoman in the home, if you are
married, you would leave yourhome and go live with your
husband's family. And he wouldstay home with his dad and mom
and their daughter, his sisterswould move to there. So that's
the idea that the householdYeah, you're right. It's
(13:59):
organized by the men. I'd wantto be careful about reading into
that the assumption that theBible thinks men are better, or
call all the shots becausethere's enough in the old
testament to prove that that'snot the case. But it is the way
society was organized.
Travis Albritton (14:19):
Well, even just looking at the contrast
between that and Genesis towhere it says For this reason,
the man will leave his Oh,right. A joint to his wife,
right?
Jason Alexander (14:31):
That's right.
Yeah. And we want to say, Well,he didn't go very far. Like he
went next store. But yeah, somarriage does bring about new
families that are continuouswith the old and there is an
honoring of the family unit. Andthat's important for Israel,
right, the tribes and the landand the you know, the economy,
all of this political life. It'sit gets bound up in what is
(14:54):
called bait of the household ofthe Father, which seems to be
The family unit in Israel, butit's a it's a political,
economic entity that helpsstructure society and so to
wield any authority in the home,is to have authority in society,
which I don't think we think ofthings. In those terms today.
(15:17):
You know, if a woman hasauthority in the home, we don't
say there's a powerful woman. Sothat is a bit of a cultural, we
have to do some, some traveling,I guess to, to understand that.
Corina Espejo (15:31):
So summarize because again, I don't want
anybody to get lost in the saucehere. Wonderful notes that I'm
taking, just to summarize, sothe surrounding norm that the
Bible was set in for the mostpart Old Testament that it was
patriarchy, and there werealways there's always going to
be an exception, right? You'realways gonna have somebody
somewhere, say, but what aboutthat one society, right? But
widely, right, and there aredifferent levels and flavors.
(15:53):
And the thing I like here isthat word patriarchy has
different perspectives,connotations that especially for
us today. So I need to be humbleand careful that my concept and
my perspective of patriarchythat I'm not imposing that,
particularly on the sentiments,right sentiments of those old
testament characters, but justto be careful, but by and large,
(16:14):
right, the typical cultural normthat the Bible was set in that
it was patriarchy. But becareful. It might not mean or
look like what you think itlooks like, for example, you
mentioned that the Bible doesn'tendorse that model, but it
probably also doesn't overtlycondemn it, right. So be
careful. We're not imposing thatsentiment on to the Bible.
Jason Alexander (16:35):
Yeah, that's great. fathers are not
Corina Espejo (16:38):
bad. Right.
Right.
Jason Alexander (16:40):
I am a father.
So I hope that's not not thecase. But there is again, a
vision of the home and thefamily in Scripture that is
sometimes overtly butoftentimes, it's more subtle,
but it's kind of knocking thelegs out from underneath
oppressive cultures. Yeah, sameis true in the New Testament
with with slavery, right? Someof the moves that Paul makes,
(17:02):
has a bigger impact on slaverythan to just say, I don't like
slavery, or slavery is bad,right? And so that's, that's the
brilliance of what God is doingthrough a people in a lost
world. It's really awesome.
Corina Espejo (17:22):
Love that. And it's consistent with what we
talked about in previousepisodes, right? That right? God
is calling us to rule andsubdue, but but in his right,
same holiness, righteousnessnature, right. And I love what
you mentioned to both mom anddad carried authority and
responsibility, and they may bedifferent. But there is a sense
of what you're mentioning, and Iguess we're going to get into
(17:44):
this next. But what you'rementioning is that family unit
has influenced not just withinthe home, and I think this is so
different, obviously, from ourAmerican culture. But then, the
leaders within a home, both momand dad, it seems like, in their
own ways, had an influence onsociety. And you're talking
(18:04):
about politically, economically.
And that's so hard on me, Hey,listen, if y'all at home are
like, what does that even mean?
Because we don't live in thatculture. So right. I'm taking a
student, I'm going to take alearner's heart today and hear
what that means. So I'm excited.
Jason Alexander (18:18):
I try to explain these things with a
great deal of trepidation. Onebecause I recognize how it
sounds, you know, a big pale,redheaded male. telling you what
it was like for a woman in theancient world. Like, I recognize
that that's suspicious, youknow, that I am definitely not
(18:42):
an expert in this, thisdiscussion. But you know, I
think from what I've learned,things are not always what you
seem, what we might call,relegating either a man or a
woman into a specific, overlyspecified role. It might not be
(19:03):
as disgraceful as it is becausewe're, I think, because we
approach the Bible from our ownsetting. And there'll be another
comment back on what we said,you know, you, you have to do
some self examination. You know,I live in the United States of
America, and in the here andnow. And so, there are cultural
(19:24):
things that have happened,especially within the last 500
years that have shaped exactlythe kinds of questions and the
kinds of takeaways I'll havefrom reading the Bible. You got
to acknowledge those, and beprepared to jettison some of
that. And once you do you findsomething beyond redemptive.
(19:44):
It's beautiful. What you see inScripture, the dignity offered
humanity is I mean, it's it'sunmatched in my opinion in the
ancient world, and today.
Corina Espejo (19:56):
So now that we're all good and humble, and getting
ready to learn and Both fromJason a tall redheaded man and
or myself as you peel your skincolor. It's pretty good.
Jason Alexander (20:09):
Well, we got some good lighting good lighting
done under watching me he's notgonna do you any favors. Okay,
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Corina Espejo (20:17):
No, no, you're good. Alright, so and me as a
short, brown, tiny petite woman.
Yeah, so fun. So fun. So let'swalk through Israel's history if
we're just sticking on the OldTestament, okay. And I know so
many people are eager to move onto New Testament, but hang with
us here. Hmm. Let's talk alittle bit about Israel's
history, you know, again, as anarrative as a story of
(20:37):
patriarchs and matriarchs.
Jason Alexander (20:41):
Yes, we had talked about Genesis chapter
three. And I don't rememberexactly what we had said there.
But that ends with the man andthe woman now Adam and Eve being
exile. And from that moment on,scripture is telling a story of
life outside the garden, and theway that the garden will
(21:04):
influence life outside thegarden going forward. I think
Travis, you mentioned lemak, thefirst encounter with a
polygamist mm hmm, he's abusive,there's nothing great about his
character. And you know, soyou're starting to this, to see
a deterioration of the familydynamic and marriage and men and
women and the way women aretreated, and death, there's all
(21:27):
these geniale illogical listsof, you know, showing so and so
gave birth to so and so and soand so had so and so at, you
know, 1000 years old, and it'sthe part at which in the book of
Genesis 99% of us close the bookand walk away, frustrated,
because I didn't come to churchto read a bunch of lists of
(21:49):
names. But those lists show thatthe blessing God gave human
beings is working, but it'sstopped short by death. You
know, at each turn. In Genesissix, we learn more women are
involved in a serious infractionwomen and some sort of divine
(22:10):
entity, having childrentogether. And that's a big No,
no, in Genesis, because again,everything has its order and its
place, and its kind in the worldis highly organized. And so to
be transgressing thoseboundaries and having those
illicit relationships. And it'sreally hard, I think, for us to
get our head around what what'swhat's happening there. But, but
(22:30):
yeah, women, again, they're notportrayed as great either,
right. So like, men don't comeoff great. Women don't come off
great. And so the point, Ithink, in the first 11 chapters
of Genesis is to see humanitygone awry, and the unfortunate
impact that has on everythingelse that God has made. And
(22:52):
sadly, there's a moment whereGod actually says I regret the
whole thing. And that shouldjust break our hearts as
readers, because it's set off toachieve such a beautiful end.
But in chapter 11, this is thestory of the Tower of Babel. And
we see the human beings comingtogether congregating in one
(23:13):
language and in deep unity, andthey say in their anxiety, let's
make a name for ourselves, let'smake a city and set the tallest
buildings and temples and youknow, let's scrape heaven with
our skyscrapers and, and theneveryone will no one will be
safe, and God has none of it. Heconfuses their language. And so
(23:36):
the attempt by human beings tomake a name for themselves, is
thwarted by God. And it gives anexplanation for the diversity of
languages and people. It's,there's a lot going on there.
But I bring all that up. Becauseif we try to make sense of the
rhetorical structure of Genesis,when we get to Genesis, well,
(24:01):
11, verse 30, towards the end ofthe same chapter of the Tower of
Babel, we are transported tosomewhere near Iraq, and we meet
this one family, and it's thatfamily that we will journey with
for the rest of the Bible. Imean, the rest of the Bible is
(24:21):
all about this Mesopotamianfamily, and you're not exactly
told why they're so special. ButI think again, looking at the
rhetorical understair strategy,I guess, of the book, this
family is God's answer hisresponse to creation gone awry.
(24:45):
Right. So the cosmic effect ofhuman sin and how it's decimated
and there's been judgment andfloods and arrogance beyond
calculation. God's way ofresponding is to call this
family And that, of course, isof Rama and Sarah, and they're
elderly. And they're not Jewish,there is no Jewish, right that
(25:08):
Israel isn't a thing yet in thestory. But we're told that
Abrams wife is barren. Andimmediately, we've already seen
lists that end in death. But nowwe come to a place where it's
like, well, she's barren.
There's not even going to be alist, right? Like this is this
show stops here. And so barren,pneus, or infertility in the
(25:32):
book of Genesis is a majorhurdle. But it's also one of the
ways God sets up what it meansto hope.
Travis Albritton (25:45):
How're you guys doing? Doing great, keep
going, Jason.
Jason Alexander (25:48):
So the fact that she's barren wood,
especially as an ancient reader,like man, to be barren, is to
really live without hope. And sowomen didn't get a fair shake in
the ancient world, much lessbarren women, because you really
had no recourse, you had nooption for vocation, right? If,
if having a family was the goalin the family was such an
(26:13):
influential entity in theneighborhood or in society, but
you can have a family, while theyou're going to suffer greatly.
Also, keep in mind, for theseancient readers, the unveiling
of God's will, through JesusChrist hasn't taken place. So
even the idea of an afterlife isbeen taken away from you,
(26:35):
because the best you can do foran afterlife is have children,
and they'll carry on yourlegacy. But if you don't have
that, then the show stops withyou. You literally have no
future, to be barren is to beput in a place of despair be
beyond even death, at least withdeath. There was a life with
(26:56):
Baroness there's no future. Andso we should we should
immediately I think when we seethis barren woman say, Well, how
in the world is this supposed towork? And remember, the
judgments on humanity, havingchildren would be a challenge.
So here we see part of thatfallen reality working itself
out, here's the thing, in thesolution, just pretty amazing.
(27:19):
God's response is to operatemoving forward with the broken
blighted stuff of humanity, butfor these, and use the word
matriarchs for these pillar,women of Israel's history, they
were vulnerable. And God knewthat, right? God knows that, in
(27:42):
choosing to use this situationtells you a lot about what God
thinks is possible. And Godtipping His compassion not just
to a woman, and not just to abarren woman, but to again, set
women in a position to behonored.
Travis Albritton (28:04):
So that's, I mean, just blows my mind, the
things that God does, to redeemthe irredeemable just gives me
hope. And I think it's easy forus, reading back through the
Scriptures, especially seeingthese really vulnerable women to
think like, Oh, well, that meansthat they had no influence. They
were just kind of at the behestat the whim of their husband.
(28:27):
But we actually get these littlevignettes throughout the Old
Testament, to help us to see theinfluence that women wielded in
the Israelite community, and howGod empowered them to partner
with men. So kind of like walkus through like what some of
those vignettes could look like,you know, especially the really
famous one in the Proverbs inProverbs chapter 31.
Jason Alexander (28:47):
Yeah, that's great. And I'll be much more
concise. I'm sorry. Like you'retalking to a preacher. So like,
my, my impulse is just to like,open your Bibles like McCullin,
especially in old Southern
Travis Albritton (29:00):
Baptist.
Jason Alexander (29:02):
Yeah, I get it.
Now. I know.
Travis Albritton (29:04):
Like let's break out of a song. You know,
guys, yeah, have anotheroffering braids. Mango? Yeah,
Jason Alexander (29:09):
pass the plate.
Yep. So again, we're talkingabout Israel set in a
patriarchal society. yet. All ofthis dignity is being thrown
towards women in a way that iswhat I think should be
surprising to us given thesetting. And so Genesis chapter
12, through 15 is called thepatriarchal narratives, right,
(29:30):
the the stories of thepatriarchs of Israel, but the
Bible sets forth where you couldcall it the matriarchal
narratives as well, because infact, Israel's future is in the
hands of women over and overagain. And this is what really
highlights it. Sarah, a barrenwoman is told she'll have a
(29:51):
child or Abrams told he'll havea child. She's like, well, I'm
dried up. So take my hand. Madein Hagar, right? she gets
pregnant and has a child namedIshmael and a Avram lives for 13
years imagining that's theanswer. See, God did come
through on his promise. And GodGod shows up in chapter eight Ts
(30:12):
is no, no, no, no, no. I knowfor the last 13 years, you've
been imagining that that was myanswer. But actually, Sarah is
going to have a child. Shelaughs Abraham laughs No one can
grasp that. Long story short,she has a miracle child, that
miracle child finds a wife andshe's barren Rebecca. He prays
for her. And then she has twochildren as a son Jacob, right?
(30:35):
Jacob finds his favorite of hisfour women and she's barren. And
so in succession, three barrenmatriarchs, I mean, so that and
it doesn't stop there, you havewhat you could call an emphasis
on barren women in Genesis, oreven some have called it those
(30:56):
who are like socially barren.
There's a story about Tamar, whoacts as a prostitute and she
gets some very, she gets bettercoverage than we'd want to give
her in Scripture, right becauseof the way she behaved, but
she's doing something. God isusing women to move the story
forward, sibling rivalry betweensisters, competitions to have
(31:20):
kids, God is choosing thesestories to bring forth not just
any old people, but according toScripture, the rescue squad for
all creation. And so his his wayis to up for the most down and
out the most marginalized, anduse that to bring forth
(31:42):
salvation for the world isamazing. And so barren women
appear at important moments inIsrael story. And I think the
point is, don't get too big foryour britches, thinking you're
so great because you are miraclechildren of barren women. even
think of Moses the story ofMoses, when he shows up it's
midwives, Egyptian midwives thatare facilitating Israel's
(32:07):
deliverance. It's all the way ofsaying that women played a role.
Remember, they are calledhelpers, like, Well, here's the
evidence, like, this is the idealike, God is choosing for a
backdrop for his salvific work,women and men too. But I think
(32:28):
women in a way that again, wouldbe revolutionary in the ancient
world, and even some parts ofour Western society would say,
well, women play a bigger rolethan they should, that there is
a an emphasis. So when you getto places like the poem that the
end of Proverbs, Proverbs 31,what is it 10 through 31. It's
(32:48):
an acrostic poem, like abcdefg,like, you know, maybe that's so
that you could memorize it, butprobably, it's just a way of
communicating totality, like thewoman of valor, women of
strength, I guess, however, youwant to translate that, but she
his or her life is, you know, Ithink you want to be careful if
(33:09):
I was a woman, and I readproverbs 31, I would be like,
holy cow, I cannot be like that.
Like, I'm glad it's a woman andnot a man actually, because she
is so active, and so involved inso effective, that it almost
overwhelms you. But I think it'sa larger point about a woman of
God, a woman of strength is onewho has currency, right? She has
(33:33):
an effect in society, herhusband's reputation is
connected to her effective work.
It's really cool. In the Massaretic texts, the Hebrew
Scriptures are in a different,they're organized differently
than our what we call the OldTestament, same books, different
(33:55):
order. And proverbs shows up inwhat is the third section of the
Hebrew Scripture called thewritings. And those are
organized to some degree basedon liturgical texts like
different texts that are read atdifferent holidays. And so
proverbs ends with eshet Heilthe woman of strength, this
incredibly effective woman thatis like a new standard. And
(34:19):
remember, Proverbs is written tomen, it's a father talking to a
son, and he wants to tell hisson about the effectiveness of a
woman as a capstone to the wholebook. Here's what you should be
like, and it's a woman. But thenyou read about this eshet Heil.
That's the lesson you read aboutin Proverbs, you turn the page
in the next book is Ruth, justread on Pentecost and right away
(34:40):
we're told Ruth is eschewedKyle. And so it's like pulling
that thread. The Bible is evenorganized to show. Here's this
woman of valor. And then you getthis embodied in Ruth. And Ruth
is characterized by a word thatis used to describe God Himself.
Yes, it is. It's like thisdeserved kind loyalty. That's
(35:05):
Israel's way of talking abouttheir God. Ruth embodies that.
And so these are all again, I'mkind of all over the place, I
realized that but you know, youcan't do a systematic study of
each woman in Scripture becausethere's too many. In fact, the
cumulative weight of women inScripture is unbelievable, like
a three to one with men, becausethere's named and unnamed. But I
(35:26):
mean, these are some you said,vignettes are these moments
within, in Scripture, whereinwomen, the movement forward in
God's will is in the hands ofwomen, which is why scandalous
women show up in the very firstchapter of the New Testament,
which is a list of Jesus'sfamily, right? I mean, that
would be blown away like youryou know, list, like you said,
(35:48):
patrilineal here is not justwomen, but women that whose
reputation could go one way orthe other. But they're
characterized my faith.
Travis Albritton (35:56):
And just to pull some clips, some little
snippets from proverbs 31, thatif you just read through it, you
might breeze past these thingsand not think anything of them.
But in the context of trying tounderstand how would an
Israelite view women in theirrole in society, this is again,
a woman who is lifted up at theend of Proverbs as being the
culmination of this Book ofWisdom, right? She considers a
(36:18):
field and buys it. Right. Right.
So she's not just like managingthe youngins and making sure
that the laundry gets done ontime. She's purchasing real
estate, right on behalf of herfamily. Right. She you know, we
do get some things that Yeah,that sounds a little closer to
what we would think she gets upwhile it is still night. She
provides food for her family andportions for her female
(36:40):
servants. You know, that's whatproceeds right before we just
read. But then we see that she'sactive, right? she opens her
arms to the poor, extends herhands to the needy, implying not
just like her personally, buther resources, her family's
resources. Right,
Jason Alexander (36:55):
right. Totally.
Travis Albritton (36:57):
She you know that her husband, verse 23, is
respected at the city gatebecause of her. right because of
her reputation. Yeah. And thatshe watches over the affairs of
her household, she speaks withwisdom, her children Gall, her
blast, her husband calls herblessed. And then I love this
right? Many women do noblethings, but you surpass them
(37:17):
all. charm is deceptive. Andbeauty is fleeting, but a woman
who fears the Lord is to bepraised. And so we see Yeah,
this whole picture, right of awoman who doesn't just fit our
perception of what an ancientMesopotamian civilization might
have thought of what womenshould be. But really this well
rounded, very active membercontributing member of her
(37:41):
household of her society, of theeconomy, of the political nature
of how cities were run. So thatwould be like city gates,
elders. That's, that's likegoing to your local state
legislature and play a role inthat. Right. And so we see, like
you said, this is lifted up asthe woman to aspire to be, as in
Israel lights,
Jason Alexander (38:02):
right, which suggests that you could be like
that. Yeah. So it wouldn't be itwouldn't necessarily be on the
level of independence of thiswoman. Yeah. And I love that I
picture like people coming tothe city gates and seeing her
husband like, may you lucky.
Like that, that is a such anhonor to be married to a woman
(38:23):
of God. Right. And I thinkthat's the larger point here is
that we're talking about avision for gender that is not
dictated by culture. It's reallycool.
Travis Albritton (38:38):
So to wrap up this episode, and just kind of
like drive home, maybe like someof our assumptions about how
women were viewed in the OldTestament could be a little off.
We're gonna get to individuals.
Okay. The first one we find isin the book of Judges, the very
beginning.
Jason Alexander (38:52):
Are we talking about Deborah, we are talking
about depth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So judges has a special interestin women. And like in the book
of Genesis, judges at keymoments in the story, women show
up, named and unnamed, and infact, in Judges, you have
another There are five barrenwomen in the Old Testament and
in Judges, Samson's mother, thewife of Manitowoc, it's another
(39:15):
instance of at a key moment inIsrael's history, God ops for
not just a woman, but a barrenwoman to bring forth to deliver.
But throughout Deborah is thefirst of many women in the book
of Judges that play asignificant role. And this is
add a, there might be acommentary here on the men to
(39:37):
some degree too, because again,imagine a patriarchal setting
for these texts. And judges madjudges should come with an NC 70
warning like it is. It's rough,like no joke. It's upsetting,
like, for me, especially thelast few chapters, and I'm just
To ask like, you know, reallylike you could have given us in
(40:01):
Scripture, you could edit itsome of that. But, but there it
is. And I think the point is todescribe Israel at a, at a very
low moment while there withoutany direction. Their hearts are
restless in the words ofAugustine, right. So Deborah
shows up and the other one isjail. Right? She drives a tent
(40:23):
peg into his Cicero's head likeThat's right. Yeah, the
deliverers, like, are women. Andso I don't know what to say
about that much more than Well,yeah, there you go. Again,
there's, there's more instancesof, you know, yeah, you don't
get this image of Donna Reed, orJune cleaver, right. Like, she's
(40:44):
at home, vacuuming and makingdinner, she's like, women will
make moves, they will movethings forward and cause
problems for Israel's enemies.
And it's important given thepatriarchal setting in which
Israel lived, that you havestories like that, because they
(41:07):
would potentially bescandalizing. Right? Women
rising up and catch and rec, aswe used to say, right, like
moving things forward. So it'smore evidence of a redemptive
view of the female sex.
Travis Albritton (41:24):
So when we get introduced to Deborah, in
Judges, chapter four, versefour, we find out, you know,
Israel, done messed up again,right, and God says, Alright,
fine, here's another foreignenemy to come in and conquer
you. And then in verse four, weget introduced to Deborah, in
the book of Judges, as a judge,but also as a prophet. So help
(41:45):
us understand like, what thatwould mean, that she's not just
the political leader of Israel,but also the spiritual leader at
this time.
Jason Alexander (41:52):
Yeah, I mean, it's more evidence of, I don't
want to say radical, but it is ait is a subversive picture of
women. And yeah, it's not like,Oh, you know, if there would
have been a better man, a mancould have done the job better.
And there weren't all men, youknow, like, I, I guess you could
say that you can see that here.
But I see more, the Spirit ofGod is involved in raising up
(42:13):
these prophets and judges. Sothis was God's choice. So yeah,
to to be a prophet is in somesense, right to speak for on
behalf of the deity. So I don'tget the impression I was messing
with Deborah. You know, like sheis she's a leader in Israel. And
you could put an Asterix next tothat, like people want to, they
(42:38):
say, Well, yeah, she was aleader, when there were no
better men. It's like, andyou're like, it doesn't change
the fact that, that this is whoGod has chosen to raise up, and
there'll be plenty of men injudges that don't do half as
good as she does. I don't knowif that's what you're driving.
Travis Albritton (42:57):
Well, and because I think the the contrast
is often made to the guy who'sleaving the army at this time.
Oh, risposte supposed to beright barrack. And, and we get
this really interesting storywhere, you know, Deborah would
sit under a tree and she wouldoffer judgments in a very
similar way that we see Moses dofor the people of Israel in a
similar way that we see Davidsupposed to be doing in his
(43:20):
kingship. And then Brock islike, Hey, we got this enemy
over here. Deborah says go fightthem. God says you need to fight
him. And he's like, I'm notgoing unless you're going. Yep.
And so one way this has beenread is like Brock should have
been leading but because he wasincapable or a poor leader. Got
had to settle for Deborah tolike, go and make this thing
(43:40):
happen. Brock didn't think thatno, no, no, not at all. The
impression you get is, Brockknows. Yeah. Hey, we need you.
We need Deborah. Yeah, I'm gonnamake sure that this thing turns
out favorably.
Jason Alexander (43:54):
Yeah, that's good. I need to spend more time
with that, Deborah, there. It'soverwhelming. You know, this
just re iterates the fact to me,cuz I'm very interested in how
women are portrayed inScripture. But there's, it's
just too There's too many, whichshould tell you something. There
are so many amazing stories ofwomen, like Deborah that I just
(44:16):
I need to spend more time with.
Corina Espejo (44:18):
So Deborah is one and I love hearing about many of
these women, as you'rementioning, let's talk about
Esther. I know Esther for 12 to17. Right? We're looking at this
dynamic between Mordecai. Andreally one of the statements is
Mordecai did as Esther commandedright and even going as far
(44:40):
Travis you mentioned rightEsther for 29 to 32 that she
even mandates the Festival ofpyram. But there's this dynamic
here. Let's let's talk a littlebit about Esther.
Jason Alexander (44:51):
Once again. You know, we talked about how help
as the idea of deliverance fromwhether big or small Moments of
need. And Esther shows up at atime when Israel's identity is
under serious threat. Right. Andthis is one of my advisors did a
(45:13):
lot of work in, in. So I guessit was one of my undergrad
advisors did a lot of work withEsther. And I, I feel bad that I
never really sought him out tolearn more. But the woman here
is is again a deliverer securingprocuring Israel safe safety at
a time when they're out to stampthem out. Right. And so she is
(45:37):
viewed as a hero of of thefaith. So there's no apology for
that. Again, we'd like to put anAsterix next to these, because
we're assuming that scripturewants to endorse a patriarchal
vision of society, and all thatthat means, but I think the
(45:58):
Bible is setting forth likenope, yeah, women are important
to God to you. And they'reimportant in his plan.
Travis Albritton (46:07):
And if we draw a thread back to the discussion
we had about Genesis two aboutthis aser word, again that
deliver we see both Mordecai andEsther play that role in the
story. Right that it is it ismore to Kai's persuasion, great
point that encourages Esther tostep into that role. So being
(46:29):
the help that Esther needs to bewho God has positioner to be
setting her up to then be thehelp that Israel needs in that
position of authority. And then,like Kareena mentioned at the
end of the book, Esther is theone who puts the stamp of
approval on the festival pyramto save this shall now be a new
(46:50):
festival, for the Israelitesforever and ever. Amen. Right
that before they were festivalsestablished, and the Torah, by
Moses in the desert. Right,right, right. And so now all of
a sudden, you got Esther, say,Oh, this is now a new festival
that we will have as anIsraelite community to remember
(47:13):
when God delivered us out of thehands of Harmon.
Jason Alexander (47:17):
Yeah, that's such a great point. It's
interesting. All of the holidayslike these five books, they
involve women in interestingways, like Lamentations is read
on to Shabbat of commemoratingthe fall of the temple.
Lamentations is offered in afeminine voice, Song of Songs
has an emphasis on the womanthat's that's the Passover
reading. And these are feminineparts of the Bible, read at the
(47:40):
holiest moments of Israel'sstory. So they're not
discriminating within tradition,like we want to, I'm convinced,
or at least some parts of thechurch wants to because of less
sophisticated readings of Paul,at the end of the day, but
you're right, she has someserious clout. in society, yeah.
Travis Albritton (48:03):
So if you're feeling overwhelmed, by just the
sheer number of stories,instances where feminine figures
take positions of leadership andauthority within the Israelite
community, you should feeloverwhelmed because it is
overwhelming, when you actuallyread into it. Now, we're not
saying this to say and now allleaders shall be women forever
(48:26):
and ever. We've alreadyestablished right, like, fathers
are good. Men are good women aregood. When God created man and
women, he said, very good,right? So this, we're not saying
this to replace the genderedpneus of the order of creation,
but simply to highlight andpoint out that the way that God
(48:46):
views women can stand in starkcontrast to the way that we
think a religious communityshould view women at least in
the way that we think of thevalue of women, the role of
women, the capacity of women, tostep up, and to move the mission
of God forward, which I justthink is incredible. And is just
completely consistent witheverything else we know about
(49:08):
God and how he loves each of us,right that there is no male
woman, Jew, Gentile, slave freeto God. We're all image bearers.
We're all his children. Yeah. Soit's cool to see that reinforced
over and over again, in thestories that he's given us in
the Bible. Well said Corina, youwant to bring us home with some
(49:30):
some takeaways,
Corina Espejo (49:31):
as we kind of look at the takeaways and I love
just to interweave and I'll behonest model for you all, real
time. For some of you theremight be pain points in this and
that's okay. I'm going to bevulnerable with all of you like
listening at first to Jason kindof walking through Wow, the
progression of the narrative inthe Bible was continued through
(49:55):
women. Honestly, at first it wasbased on their pregnancy and
being able to produce babies.
I'll be honest with you, therewas a part of me that was, at
first a little like, Oh, I feelawkwardly threatened and a
little odd about that. And but Ihave to stop and ask myself why,
like, Why do I feel that threat?
(50:15):
And is it appropriate for me?
And this is where I think I haveto honor Okay, yes, I do feel
threatened. But why as a modernday woman in the time that I'm
in now? And is it appropriatefor me to impose that
perspective on the biblicalnarrative that was written on a
different time for a differentsentiment? And I love what you
mentioned, Jason, that thatactually, it's almost like it's
a clause that women were to behonored because of their
(50:39):
contribution to the narrative,particularly for redemption, as
you mentioned, right forthinking about that list of
women that led to Jesus right.
There is honor woven there. ButI do have to wrestle with that,
that I have to be honest, andsay, Well, wait a second. Why
did I feel some type of way?
Hearing that hearing thatwomen's initial pardon in the
(51:01):
narrative and progression was inpregnancy was in childbearing,
and to see that it doesn't haveto be as villainous or nefarious
as as maybe a modern day Kareenamay feel that it's okay to say,
you know what, God is good, thathe partnered with women, and
then later to see the many waysthat he also use both men and
(51:22):
women, their mutuality, as wellas their complimentary roles,
that that these are notindications of men being
superior to women, or viceversa, right? That we really are
talking about. God valuing whowe are, as image bearers to
continue this incredible storyof love, of said of Covenant
(51:45):
love, and redemption. And thereare so many examples for those
of you who are like, man, I justwant to know more great because
there's so many more examples ofwomen taking the lead, but also
honoring their partnership withmen to live out God's will in
his heart. We're still not atthe point, though, where we can
(52:05):
say definitively like what womenor men can and can't do. You
know, so for example, y'all arejust waiting. Can women preach
on a Sunday, we're not thereyet. And we're not going to take
the bait, so don't even go forit. Don't do it. I love this,
this, these are greatconversations that honestly give
me incredible, incredible justhope and vision. Not just for
(52:27):
myself as a woman, but even forthe brothers in my life for the
men in my life. How exciting andfun. And you know, we mentioned
the word. All right, there'sincredible are there for what
God can do with people who justlove him and want to be more
like Him and want other peopleto be more like Him. It's very,
very cool.
Travis Albritton (52:48):
Yeah, Jason, you're muted. By the way,
Jason Alexander (52:50):
I was laughing and saying, amen. No doubt.
Travis Albritton (52:56):
Well, and if you're curious why we're taking
so much time in the OldTestament, before we get to the
passages that you're probablycurious about, it's because
those writings from Paul waseven the Apostle Peter said, he
can be very confusing, if youjust are trying to read and
understand what he's talkingabout. This is all the backdrop
for how the writers of the NewTestament thought about God and
(53:19):
their spiritual heritage. Sowhen they talk about roles in
the church, when they talk aboutgenders, when they talk about,
you know, spiritual gifts in thespirit at work, they're making
all these kinds of connectionsto the Old Testament that if you
don't have that foundation, canbe very jarring. And so this
(53:40):
groundwork we're laying, it willbear fruit. Once we get to those
more difficult passages, we'regoing to be able to look back
and reference the work we'vedone to help gain clarity about
some of the most contested, mostmisunderstood and misconstrued
verses in the entire Bible. Sothis is not a small thing we're
(54:00):
trying to do. But by taking itslow, and making sure we have a
big understanding of the Bibleas a whole, that's going to give
us more tools at our disposal tomake sense of things that don't
make a lot of sense when youfirst read them. It's good. Now,
if you have not yet signed up tobe a part of the podcast
(54:23):
newsletter, make sure you dothat just go to women church
podcast Comm. We'll send youupdates about new episodes as
they come out, as well asadditional guides and resources
to help you with your ownpersonal Bible study and
implementing the things that wewere talking about along the
way. And make sure to stay tunednext week, where Jason will be
joining us once again. And weare actually going to go into
the New Testament. We're goingto look at the ministry of Jesus
(54:44):
and the role that women playedin that ministry.
Welcome back to the women in the church
podcast where we take a freshlook at what the Bible says
about women in church for the ICo see if you've been following
along, you know, the usualsuspects myself, Travis
Albritton, the lovely Corinaessayhow as well,
Corina Espejo (00:15):
yes. Hello.
Travis Albritton (00:16):
And then Jason Alexander back for a punishment
Jason Alexander (00:19):
once again.
That's right.
Travis Albritton (00:21):
So Corina, you had a wonderful thought for how
to lead off today's episode, whydon't you go ahead and just jump
right into that?
Corina Espejo (00:28):
Yeah, I think for me, I know, all three of us, I'm
sure in setting out this topicas well as many difficult
topics, there can be this panicor confusion. That leaves us
feeling and I believe the termyou use, Jason was skeptical
despair. So we are not ignorantthat some of you may be feeling
(00:49):
a bit of despair, you might befeeling a lot of things. But we
would like to offer you just adifferent perspective. And
Jason, you quoted you had aquote that I loved. Can you read
that for us again?
Jason Alexander (00:59):
Yeah, sure.
That was Christian Smith's book,the Bible made impossible by
that sounds like a great, greatdevotional reading. So okay, the
quote I had read you was sort ofhis defense of the
deconstruction, that thathappens in his book, but he says
my point here is not to drivereaders into skeptical despair,
(01:20):
about learning anything from theBible about how to live
faithfully today. My pointrather, is to undermine
simplistic and divisiveinterpretive habits of some
bibble assists who easily pointto this or that practice of
God's people recorded in theBible and pronounce that the
same practices binding onChristians today, because it is
(01:43):
clearly quote, biblical. If weare to more intelligently and
consistently sort throughscriptural practices in order to
learn how to live today, we needa stronger, more coherent
hermeneutical Guide to fosterdiscernment. So that's more more
technical than I thought itwould be. You know, I'm not sure
(02:04):
I want to agree with everythinghe said there. But the spirit of
that I think, is reallyimportant that the goal of
examining biblical texts andthinking through what we thought
we had understood so perfectly,is not to make the Bible less
understandable or to take it outof our hands and say, Oh, you
(02:26):
can't you can't do that. Becauseit's, it's ancient. And you need
to understand all of the ancientworld, if you're going to do
anything with the Bible. That'snot the goal. As someone who
teaches the Bible, I want toplace scripture in our hands in
a way that empowers us to seethe love and goodness of God
that's revealed there in and soI like that he says, simplistic
(02:51):
and divisive interpretivehabits, and that would be
approaching the Bible, you know,with like an overly legal mind,
I think we have to learn to cometo Scripture, understand that it
is somewhat foreign, but thenmoving on to encounter God. That
is that's revealed there inScripture. So for me, the goal
(03:13):
is faithful living before God,we read Scripture, not to
assemble some kind of puzzle, oreven to just think,
theologically, but so that wemight know and honor God. And so
the worst readings of all arethose which do not culminate in
(03:35):
faithfulness. If we're readingscripture, just to sort of sort
out some ancient text, thenwe're really missing the point
here. The goal of Scripture isfaithfulness before God. So any
any approach that doesn't landthere, shame on us.
Corina Espejo (03:56):
Yeah, and quick confession. I know I've been
there looking at the Scriptureand maybe treating it with you
know, that legal mind like youtalked about, but I think the
moment that it that changed forme to approach the Bible, and
again, it's it's something aboutit, it honors my humanity to not
have all the answers right. Andit allowed me to enjoy right,
enjoy learning and enjoy. Justpursuing God's heart and his
(04:19):
will on things. Yeah, it'sexciting.
Jason Alexander (04:21):
Yeah, the growing comfortable with
mystery. You know, it's notsomething we love. But it is
something we have to do nothingabout the God we serve should
lead us to assume that we'rejust going to put them in our
pocket and move on. Like, we'rejust going to get a hold of them
and, and then we figured it out.
Now let's move on and help otherpeople figure it out like that.
(04:42):
It's, it's bigger than that thesort of participation that is
involved in reading the Biblewith Divine Will requires
creativity. It requiresdiscussion, and more than
anything and then this can getleft in the dust sometime but it
requires Prayer to be prayerfulto take these texts into, to
seek the God who is alive atevery time and in every place
(05:07):
with every people. He's not justa figure from history, we read
about scriptures trying to, inmy mind, point beyond itself to
the living God's scriptures notsaying come and read us and
figure it all out. It's saying,Come and look at God. And that's
going to involve some nonanswers at points. Sorry, I
cannot live forever about that.
(05:30):
I'm passionate about thisdiscussion. Because it's the
difference between faithfulinspired readings and
applications and a kind of deadlegalism that that inevitably
comes when you're not seeing Godin the text
Travis Albritton (05:48):
well, and leaves you wanting more and on a
really dangerous precipice,where the certainty that we can
build around our understandingof Scripture, right can leave us
a false sense of security.
Totally.
Jason Alexander (06:01):
Yeah, dude. And again, I have speculated that
the reason we read aboutlegalism in the lives of
religious people in the Gospel,the reason that comes up so
much, is because that's what weall can potentially, you know,
we can become that. And it'sinteresting, Jesus never really
(06:25):
challenged like, it seems coredoctrine of Pharisees. He wasn't
like, Hey, you believe the wrongthings. It was more like your
reading is too small, like I'mthinking of the famous one is
john seven. He says, you know,you search the Scriptures all
day. But you refuse to come tome. And of course, I'm
(06:46):
paraphrasing, but I'm thereferent of those various
scriptures that you devour on adaily basis, and yet you do not
see me. So for all of yourcareful study, you've totally
missed the point. And I thinkthose are there as explanations
offered for why Jesus ultimatelywas, was not loved by the
(07:10):
religious elite. But they'realso there, I think, as warnings
that that's what you can become,if you don't keep an openness to
the God who will surprise you.
And by surprise, I don't mean,contradict himself. But the
danger of that sort of legalismis it shrinks your God into it?
What do they call it? When youstage butterflies, like you pin
(07:32):
them, you know, like you, andyou just put God under a
microscope, and you got him, yougot a handle on him. And that's,
I think Jesus is trying toconfront that kind of thinking,
but that all of that could bevery relevant to a discussion
about gender. Because we cantend to treat just a few like, I
mean, at the end of the day,we're all only interested in
(07:55):
what five passages and they'reall coming from the Apostle
Paul. And that's what we reallywant to know about. And that's
my point. Like, you can't dothat, you're gonna have to take
more on board than just a fewthings that Paul has said.
Anyways, alright, and thesermon.
Travis Albritton (08:14):
And I think that's a perfect transition to
what we're going to discusstoday, we've spent the last
couple of episodes going likeverse by verse through the first
three chapters of Genesis. Nowwe want to pull back our scope
to the first two thirds of theBible and look at how did gender
play a role in the the nation,the people of Israel, the goal
(08:37):
being that we just want toreally see like, what is God's
heart towards men and women,that as he is shaping this
people, as he's shaping theIsraelites into a society of
priests that are then going tobe a light to the world, that is
going to teach us a lot abouthow God thinks about the way
that men and women interact, howthey work together, to achieve
(09:02):
his purposes, and point us inthe direction of us today as
Christians living in the NewCovenant, bringing us closer and
closer to Genesis two, right,closer and closer into the
fulfillment of the kingdombreaking in to creation, and
that we get to partner in thattakeover mission by living out
(09:23):
those Genesis two principles. asdisciples today, I might have
just given away like a bunch ofstuff at the end, but you'll
just have to stick around forall the details. So Jason, why
don't you just kind of kick usoff by in this might be this
might feel a little ticky tack,but the difference between
patrilineal and patriarchal. SoI think the patriarchy that's a
(09:45):
buzzword nowadays. And so it'seasy to look back at ancient
civilizations, ancientsocieties, even in the Bible,
and say, Oh, that was a maledominated society, where women
were essentially just babymaking machines. We don't see
that in the Bible. So So walk usbetween the difference between
patrilineal patriarchal, and howthat played out in the way that
(10:06):
God set up the nation of Israel,
Jason Alexander (10:08):
I think, yeah, you're right, the word
patriarchy, it communicates, youknow, a very heavy handedness.
And the world in which Israellived and breathed, it was ruled
by the Father. And that's whatthe word means that Father
ruled, or, you know, dad is thehead of the household men are
(10:32):
running the show. And so it'snot as if Israel's introducing
that, like, here's a great, youknow, a way to structure
society. It's just a given fact,it's the way that the ancient
world operated. And withoutputting everyone to sleep, I'll
mention something like the codeof Hammurabi, and you look at
(10:53):
patriarchy in a setting likethat, and the Bible is in stark
relief, in many instances tothat patriarchal culture. The
way that patriarchy can beconnected to women being
oppressed is something I think,is on the radar for Biblical
authors. Even just the waywithin biblical what we'd call
(11:16):
biblical law that bears itselfout. So it's patriarchy, a bad
word. I guess that's an open tointerpretation. There is a way
of understanding fathers takingcare of a family that's not
oppressive and bad. And I think,given that Israel is moving
around and living in a culturewhere patriarchy is the norm, I
(11:39):
think their vision of the way offatherhood, and being a husband
or being a son, just being amale is more God like so it gets
redemptive in that sense,without trying to make a point
that men are better than women,which is the point patriarchy
(12:00):
seems to make over and over theBible, I don't see. It's not an
endorsement of patriarchy.
That's it's not saying this iswhat God is looking for it
rather, it's real people in realplaces, and God is doing
something big through them. Andthere are ways in which Israel's
life and faith subverts thosecultural norms.
Travis Albritton (12:28):
That make sense. I don't know if that
does, it does well. And to myunderstanding, patriarchal
simply means in the context of afamily unit, husband is the head
of the household. Yeah.
patrilineal is in reference tohow families are traced over
time, right, specifically forthe allotment of land, which was
a big piece of entering thepromised land for the
(12:49):
Israelites, right that if youare giving sons and daughters
and marriage to other people indifferent tribes and clans,
right, and God has alsoinstituted that every seven
years you need to return familylands, then how are you going to
keep track of all of that, ifit's just all over the place,
it's much cleaner to say, we gotto choose one or the other,
(13:11):
we're going to trace it throughthe males line. And that's how
we're going to keep track ofeverything.
Jason Alexander (13:16):
And that also wouldn't be odd. In the ancient
world. Yeah. But it meant thatif you were a young woman, you
growing up in the household, andfather as the head of the
household is another discussionworth having, because the Bible
sets forth an image of themother in the household that she
carries quite a bit of weightand teaching both boys and
(13:38):
girls. And so as partners in thehousehold, mom and dad did carry
authority. But if you're a youngwoman in the home, if you are
married, you would leave yourhome and go live with your
husband's family. And he wouldstay home with his dad and mom
and their daughter, his sisterswould move to there. So that's
the idea that the householdYeah, you're right. It's
(13:59):
organized by the men. I'd wantto be careful about reading into
that the assumption that theBible thinks men are better, or
call all the shots becausethere's enough in the old
testament to prove that that'snot the case. But it is the way
society was organized.
Travis Albritton (14:19):
Well, even just looking at the contrast
between that and Genesis towhere it says For this reason,
the man will leave his Oh,right. A joint to his wife,
right?
Jason Alexander (14:31):
That's right.
Yeah. And we want to say, Well,he didn't go very far. Like he
went next store. But yeah, somarriage does bring about new
families that are continuouswith the old and there is an
honoring of the family unit. Andthat's important for Israel,
right, the tribes and the landand the you know, the economy,
all of this political life. It'sit gets bound up in what is
(14:54):
called bait of the household ofthe Father, which seems to be
The family unit in Israel, butit's a it's a political,
economic entity that helpsstructure society and so to
wield any authority in the home,is to have authority in society,
which I don't think we think ofthings. In those terms today.
(15:17):
You know, if a woman hasauthority in the home, we don't
say there's a powerful woman. Sothat is a bit of a cultural, we
have to do some, some traveling,I guess to, to understand that.
Corina Espejo (15:31):
So summarize because again, I don't want
anybody to get lost in the saucehere. Wonderful notes that I'm
taking, just to summarize, sothe surrounding norm that the
Bible was set in for the mostpart Old Testament that it was
patriarchy, and there werealways there's always going to
be an exception, right? You'realways gonna have somebody
somewhere, say, but what aboutthat one society, right? But
widely, right, and there aredifferent levels and flavors.
(15:53):
And the thing I like here isthat word patriarchy has
different perspectives,connotations that especially for
us today. So I need to be humbleand careful that my concept and
my perspective of patriarchythat I'm not imposing that,
particularly on the sentiments,right sentiments of those old
testament characters, but justto be careful, but by and large,
(16:14):
right, the typical cultural normthat the Bible was set in that
it was patriarchy. But becareful. It might not mean or
look like what you think itlooks like, for example, you
mentioned that the Bible doesn'tendorse that model, but it
probably also doesn't overtlycondemn it, right. So be
careful. We're not imposing thatsentiment on to the Bible.
Jason Alexander (16:35):
Yeah, that's great. fathers are not
Corina Espejo (16:38):
bad. Right.
Right.
Jason Alexander (16:40):
I am a father.
So I hope that's not not thecase. But there is again, a
vision of the home and thefamily in Scripture that is
sometimes overtly butoftentimes, it's more subtle,
but it's kind of knocking thelegs out from underneath
oppressive cultures. Yeah, sameis true in the New Testament
with with slavery, right? Someof the moves that Paul makes,
(17:02):
has a bigger impact on slaverythan to just say, I don't like
slavery, or slavery is bad,right? And so that's, that's the
brilliance of what God is doingthrough a people in a lost
world. It's really awesome.
Corina Espejo (17:22):
Love that. And it's consistent with what we
talked about in previousepisodes, right? That right? God
is calling us to rule andsubdue, but but in his right,
same holiness, righteousnessnature, right. And I love what
you mentioned to both mom anddad carried authority and
responsibility, and they may bedifferent. But there is a sense
of what you're mentioning, and Iguess we're going to get into
(17:44):
this next. But what you'rementioning is that family unit
has influenced not just withinthe home, and I think this is so
different, obviously, from ourAmerican culture. But then, the
leaders within a home, both momand dad, it seems like, in their
own ways, had an influence onsociety. And you're talking
(18:04):
about politically, economically.
And that's so hard on me, Hey,listen, if y'all at home are
like, what does that even mean?
Because we don't live in thatculture. So right. I'm taking a
student, I'm going to take alearner's heart today and hear
what that means. So I'm excited.
Jason Alexander (18:18):
I try to explain these things with a
great deal of trepidation. Onebecause I recognize how it
sounds, you know, a big pale,redheaded male. telling you what
it was like for a woman in theancient world. Like, I recognize
that that's suspicious, youknow, that I am definitely not
(18:42):
an expert in this, thisdiscussion. But you know, I
think from what I've learned,things are not always what you
seem, what we might call,relegating either a man or a
woman into a specific, overlyspecified role. It might not be
(19:03):
as disgraceful as it is becausewe're, I think, because we
approach the Bible from our ownsetting. And there'll be another
comment back on what we said,you know, you, you have to do
some self examination. You know,I live in the United States of
America, and in the here andnow. And so, there are cultural
(19:24):
things that have happened,especially within the last 500
years that have shaped exactlythe kinds of questions and the
kinds of takeaways I'll havefrom reading the Bible. You got
to acknowledge those, and beprepared to jettison some of
that. And once you do you findsomething beyond redemptive.
(19:44):
It's beautiful. What you see inScripture, the dignity offered
humanity is I mean, it's it'sunmatched in my opinion in the
ancient world, and today.
Corina Espejo (19:56):
So now that we're all good and humble, and getting
ready to learn and Both fromJason a tall redheaded man and
or myself as you peel your skincolor. It's pretty good.
Jason Alexander (20:09):
Well, we got some good lighting good lighting
done under watching me he's notgonna do you any favors. Okay,
I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Corina Espejo (20:17):
No, no, you're good. Alright, so and me as a
short, brown, tiny petite woman.
Yeah, so fun. So fun. So let'swalk through Israel's history if
we're just sticking on the OldTestament, okay. And I know so
many people are eager to move onto New Testament, but hang with
us here. Hmm. Let's talk alittle bit about Israel's
history, you know, again, as anarrative as a story of
(20:37):
patriarchs and matriarchs.
Jason Alexander (20:41):
Yes, we had talked about Genesis chapter
three. And I don't rememberexactly what we had said there.
But that ends with the man andthe woman now Adam and Eve being
exile. And from that moment on,scripture is telling a story of
life outside the garden, and theway that the garden will
(21:04):
influence life outside thegarden going forward. I think
Travis, you mentioned lemak, thefirst encounter with a
polygamist mm hmm, he's abusive,there's nothing great about his
character. And you know, soyou're starting to this, to see
a deterioration of the familydynamic and marriage and men and
women and the way women aretreated, and death, there's all
(21:27):
these geniale illogical listsof, you know, showing so and so
gave birth to so and so and soand so had so and so at, you
know, 1000 years old, and it'sthe part at which in the book of
Genesis 99% of us close the bookand walk away, frustrated,
because I didn't come to churchto read a bunch of lists of
(21:49):
names. But those lists show thatthe blessing God gave human
beings is working, but it'sstopped short by death. You
know, at each turn. In Genesissix, we learn more women are
involved in a serious infractionwomen and some sort of divine
(22:10):
entity, having childrentogether. And that's a big No,
no, in Genesis, because again,everything has its order and its
place, and its kind in the worldis highly organized. And so to
be transgressing thoseboundaries and having those
illicit relationships. And it'sreally hard, I think, for us to
get our head around what what'swhat's happening there. But, but
(22:30):
yeah, women, again, they're notportrayed as great either,
right. So like, men don't comeoff great. Women don't come off
great. And so the point, Ithink, in the first 11 chapters
of Genesis is to see humanitygone awry, and the unfortunate
impact that has on everythingelse that God has made. And
(22:52):
sadly, there's a moment whereGod actually says I regret the
whole thing. And that shouldjust break our hearts as
readers, because it's set off toachieve such a beautiful end.
But in chapter 11, this is thestory of the Tower of Babel. And
we see the human beings comingtogether congregating in one
(23:13):
language and in deep unity, andthey say in their anxiety, let's
make a name for ourselves, let'smake a city and set the tallest
buildings and temples and youknow, let's scrape heaven with
our skyscrapers and, and theneveryone will no one will be
safe, and God has none of it. Heconfuses their language. And so
(23:36):
the attempt by human beings tomake a name for themselves, is
thwarted by God. And it gives anexplanation for the diversity of
languages and people. It's,there's a lot going on there.
But I bring all that up. Becauseif we try to make sense of the
rhetorical structure of Genesis,when we get to Genesis, well,
(24:01):
11, verse 30, towards the end ofthe same chapter of the Tower of
Babel, we are transported tosomewhere near Iraq, and we meet
this one family, and it's thatfamily that we will journey with
for the rest of the Bible. Imean, the rest of the Bible is
(24:21):
all about this Mesopotamianfamily, and you're not exactly
told why they're so special. ButI think again, looking at the
rhetorical understair strategy,I guess, of the book, this
family is God's answer hisresponse to creation gone awry.
(24:45):
Right. So the cosmic effect ofhuman sin and how it's decimated
and there's been judgment andfloods and arrogance beyond
calculation. God's way ofresponding is to call this
family And that, of course, isof Rama and Sarah, and they're
elderly. And they're not Jewish,there is no Jewish, right that
(25:08):
Israel isn't a thing yet in thestory. But we're told that
Abrams wife is barren. Andimmediately, we've already seen
lists that end in death. But nowwe come to a place where it's
like, well, she's barren.
There's not even going to be alist, right? Like this is this
show stops here. And so barren,pneus, or infertility in the
(25:32):
book of Genesis is a majorhurdle. But it's also one of the
ways God sets up what it meansto hope.
Travis Albritton (25:45):
How're you guys doing? Doing great, keep
going, Jason.
Jason Alexander (25:48):
So the fact that she's barren wood,
especially as an ancient reader,like man, to be barren, is to
really live without hope. And sowomen didn't get a fair shake in
the ancient world, much lessbarren women, because you really
had no recourse, you had nooption for vocation, right? If,
if having a family was the goalin the family was such an
(26:13):
influential entity in theneighborhood or in society, but
you can have a family, while theyou're going to suffer greatly.
Also, keep in mind, for theseancient readers, the unveiling
of God's will, through JesusChrist hasn't taken place. So
even the idea of an afterlife isbeen taken away from you,
(26:35):
because the best you can do foran afterlife is have children,
and they'll carry on yourlegacy. But if you don't have
that, then the show stops withyou. You literally have no
future, to be barren is to beput in a place of despair be
beyond even death, at least withdeath. There was a life with
(26:56):
Baroness there's no future. Andso we should we should
immediately I think when we seethis barren woman say, Well, how
in the world is this supposed towork? And remember, the
judgments on humanity, havingchildren would be a challenge.
So here we see part of thatfallen reality working itself
out, here's the thing, in thesolution, just pretty amazing.
(27:19):
God's response is to operatemoving forward with the broken
blighted stuff of humanity, butfor these, and use the word
matriarchs for these pillar,women of Israel's history, they
were vulnerable. And God knewthat, right? God knows that, in
(27:42):
choosing to use this situationtells you a lot about what God
thinks is possible. And Godtipping His compassion not just
to a woman, and not just to abarren woman, but to again, set
women in a position to behonored.
Travis Albritton (28:04):
So that's, I mean, just blows my mind, the
things that God does, to redeemthe irredeemable just gives me
hope. And I think it's easy forus, reading back through the
Scriptures, especially seeingthese really vulnerable women to
think like, Oh, well, that meansthat they had no influence. They
were just kind of at the behestat the whim of their husband.
(28:27):
But we actually get these littlevignettes throughout the Old
Testament, to help us to see theinfluence that women wielded in
the Israelite community, and howGod empowered them to partner
with men. So kind of like walkus through like what some of
those vignettes could look like,you know, especially the really
famous one in the Proverbs inProverbs chapter 31.
Jason Alexander (28:47):
Yeah, that's great. And I'll be much more
concise. I'm sorry. Like you'retalking to a preacher. So like,
my, my impulse is just to like,open your Bibles like McCullin,
especially in old Southern
Travis Albritton (29:00):
Baptist.
Jason Alexander (29:02):
Yeah, I get it.
Now. I know.
Travis Albritton (29:04):
Like let's break out of a song. You know,
guys, yeah, have anotheroffering braids. Mango? Yeah,
Jason Alexander (29:09):
pass the plate.
Yep. So again, we're talkingabout Israel set in a
patriarchal society. yet. All ofthis dignity is being thrown
towards women in a way that iswhat I think should be
surprising to us given thesetting. And so Genesis chapter
12, through 15 is called thepatriarchal narratives, right,
(29:30):
the the stories of thepatriarchs of Israel, but the
Bible sets forth where you couldcall it the matriarchal
narratives as well, because infact, Israel's future is in the
hands of women over and overagain. And this is what really
highlights it. Sarah, a barrenwoman is told she'll have a
(29:51):
child or Abrams told he'll havea child. She's like, well, I'm
dried up. So take my hand. Madein Hagar, right? she gets
pregnant and has a child namedIshmael and a Avram lives for 13
years imagining that's theanswer. See, God did come
through on his promise. And GodGod shows up in chapter eight Ts
(30:12):
is no, no, no, no, no. I knowfor the last 13 years, you've
been imagining that that was myanswer. But actually, Sarah is
going to have a child. Shelaughs Abraham laughs No one can
grasp that. Long story short,she has a miracle child, that
miracle child finds a wife andshe's barren Rebecca. He prays
for her. And then she has twochildren as a son Jacob, right?
(30:35):
Jacob finds his favorite of hisfour women and she's barren. And
so in succession, three barrenmatriarchs, I mean, so that and
it doesn't stop there, you havewhat you could call an emphasis
on barren women in Genesis, oreven some have called it those
(30:56):
who are like socially barren.
There's a story about Tamar, whoacts as a prostitute and she
gets some very, she gets bettercoverage than we'd want to give
her in Scripture, right becauseof the way she behaved, but
she's doing something. God isusing women to move the story
forward, sibling rivalry betweensisters, competitions to have
(31:20):
kids, God is choosing thesestories to bring forth not just
any old people, but according toScripture, the rescue squad for
all creation. And so his his wayis to up for the most down and
out the most marginalized, anduse that to bring forth
(31:42):
salvation for the world isamazing. And so barren women
appear at important moments inIsrael story. And I think the
point is, don't get too big foryour britches, thinking you're
so great because you are miraclechildren of barren women. even
think of Moses the story ofMoses, when he shows up it's
midwives, Egyptian midwives thatare facilitating Israel's
(32:07):
deliverance. It's all the way ofsaying that women played a role.
Remember, they are calledhelpers, like, Well, here's the
evidence, like, this is the idealike, God is choosing for a
backdrop for his salvific work,women and men too. But I think
(32:28):
women in a way that again, wouldbe revolutionary in the ancient
world, and even some parts ofour Western society would say,
well, women play a bigger rolethan they should, that there is
a an emphasis. So when you getto places like the poem that the
end of Proverbs, Proverbs 31,what is it 10 through 31. It's
(32:48):
an acrostic poem, like abcdefg,like, you know, maybe that's so
that you could memorize it, butprobably, it's just a way of
communicating totality, like thewoman of valor, women of
strength, I guess, however, youwant to translate that, but she
his or her life is, you know, Ithink you want to be careful if
(33:09):
I was a woman, and I readproverbs 31, I would be like,
holy cow, I cannot be like that.
Like, I'm glad it's a woman andnot a man actually, because she
is so active, and so involved inso effective, that it almost
overwhelms you. But I think it'sa larger point about a woman of
God, a woman of strength is onewho has currency, right? She has
(33:33):
an effect in society, herhusband's reputation is
connected to her effective work.
It's really cool. In the Massaretic texts, the Hebrew
Scriptures are in a different,they're organized differently
than our what we call the OldTestament, same books, different
(33:55):
order. And proverbs shows up inwhat is the third section of the
Hebrew Scripture called thewritings. And those are
organized to some degree basedon liturgical texts like
different texts that are read atdifferent holidays. And so
proverbs ends with eshet Heilthe woman of strength, this
incredibly effective woman thatis like a new standard. And
(34:19):
remember, Proverbs is written tomen, it's a father talking to a
son, and he wants to tell hisson about the effectiveness of a
woman as a capstone to the wholebook. Here's what you should be
like, and it's a woman. But thenyou read about this eshet Heil.
That's the lesson you read aboutin Proverbs, you turn the page
in the next book is Ruth, justread on Pentecost and right away
(34:40):
we're told Ruth is eschewedKyle. And so it's like pulling
that thread. The Bible is evenorganized to show. Here's this
woman of valor. And then you getthis embodied in Ruth. And Ruth
is characterized by a word thatis used to describe God Himself.
Yes, it is. It's like thisdeserved kind loyalty. That's
(35:05):
Israel's way of talking abouttheir God. Ruth embodies that.
And so these are all again, I'mkind of all over the place, I
realized that but you know, youcan't do a systematic study of
each woman in Scripture becausethere's too many. In fact, the
cumulative weight of women inScripture is unbelievable, like
a three to one with men, becausethere's named and unnamed. But I
(35:26):
mean, these are some you said,vignettes are these moments
within, in Scripture, whereinwomen, the movement forward in
God's will is in the hands ofwomen, which is why scandalous
women show up in the very firstchapter of the New Testament,
which is a list of Jesus'sfamily, right? I mean, that
would be blown away like youryou know, list, like you said,
(35:48):
patrilineal here is not justwomen, but women that whose
reputation could go one way orthe other. But they're
characterized my faith.
Travis Albritton (35:56):
And just to pull some clips, some little
snippets from proverbs 31, thatif you just read through it, you
might breeze past these thingsand not think anything of them.
But in the context of trying tounderstand how would an
Israelite view women in theirrole in society, this is again,
a woman who is lifted up at theend of Proverbs as being the
culmination of this Book ofWisdom, right? She considers a
(36:18):
field and buys it. Right. Right.
So she's not just like managingthe youngins and making sure
that the laundry gets done ontime. She's purchasing real
estate, right on behalf of herfamily. Right. She you know, we
do get some things that Yeah,that sounds a little closer to
what we would think she gets upwhile it is still night. She
provides food for her family andportions for her female
(36:40):
servants. You know, that's whatproceeds right before we just
read. But then we see that she'sactive, right? she opens her
arms to the poor, extends herhands to the needy, implying not
just like her personally, buther resources, her family's
resources. Right,
Jason Alexander (36:55):
right. Totally.
Travis Albritton (36:57):
She you know that her husband, verse 23, is
respected at the city gatebecause of her. right because of
her reputation. Yeah. And thatshe watches over the affairs of
her household, she speaks withwisdom, her children Gall, her
blast, her husband calls herblessed. And then I love this
right? Many women do noblethings, but you surpass them
(37:17):
all. charm is deceptive. Andbeauty is fleeting, but a woman
who fears the Lord is to bepraised. And so we see Yeah,
this whole picture, right of awoman who doesn't just fit our
perception of what an ancientMesopotamian civilization might
have thought of what womenshould be. But really this well
rounded, very active membercontributing member of her
(37:41):
household of her society, of theeconomy, of the political nature
of how cities were run. So thatwould be like city gates,
elders. That's, that's likegoing to your local state
legislature and play a role inthat. Right. And so we see, like
you said, this is lifted up asthe woman to aspire to be, as in
Israel lights,
Jason Alexander (38:02):
right, which suggests that you could be like
that. Yeah. So it wouldn't be itwouldn't necessarily be on the
level of independence of thiswoman. Yeah. And I love that I
picture like people coming tothe city gates and seeing her
husband like, may you lucky.
Like that, that is a such anhonor to be married to a woman
(38:23):
of God. Right. And I thinkthat's the larger point here is
that we're talking about avision for gender that is not
dictated by culture. It's reallycool.
Travis Albritton (38:38):
So to wrap up this episode, and just kind of
like drive home, maybe like someof our assumptions about how
women were viewed in the OldTestament could be a little off.
We're gonna get to individuals.
Okay. The first one we find isin the book of Judges, the very
beginning.
Jason Alexander (38:52):
Are we talking about Deborah, we are talking
about depth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So judges has a special interestin women. And like in the book
of Genesis, judges at keymoments in the story, women show
up, named and unnamed, and infact, in Judges, you have
another There are five barrenwomen in the Old Testament and
in Judges, Samson's mother, thewife of Manitowoc, it's another
(39:15):
instance of at a key moment inIsrael's history, God ops for
not just a woman, but a barrenwoman to bring forth to deliver.
But throughout Deborah is thefirst of many women in the book
of Judges that play asignificant role. And this is
add a, there might be acommentary here on the men to
(39:37):
some degree too, because again,imagine a patriarchal setting
for these texts. And judges madjudges should come with an NC 70
warning like it is. It's rough,like no joke. It's upsetting,
like, for me, especially thelast few chapters, and I'm just
To ask like, you know, reallylike you could have given us in
(40:01):
Scripture, you could edit itsome of that. But, but there it
is. And I think the point is todescribe Israel at a, at a very
low moment while there withoutany direction. Their hearts are
restless in the words ofAugustine, right. So Deborah
shows up and the other one isjail. Right? She drives a tent
(40:23):
peg into his Cicero's head likeThat's right. Yeah, the
deliverers, like, are women. Andso I don't know what to say
about that much more than Well,yeah, there you go. Again,
there's, there's more instancesof, you know, yeah, you don't
get this image of Donna Reed, orJune cleaver, right. Like, she's
(40:44):
at home, vacuuming and makingdinner, she's like, women will
make moves, they will movethings forward and cause
problems for Israel's enemies.
And it's important given thepatriarchal setting in which
Israel lived, that you havestories like that, because they
(41:07):
would potentially bescandalizing. Right? Women
rising up and catch and rec, aswe used to say, right, like
moving things forward. So it'smore evidence of a redemptive
view of the female sex.
Travis Albritton (41:24):
So when we get introduced to Deborah, in
Judges, chapter four, versefour, we find out, you know,
Israel, done messed up again,right, and God says, Alright,
fine, here's another foreignenemy to come in and conquer
you. And then in verse four, weget introduced to Deborah, in
the book of Judges, as a judge,but also as a prophet. So help
(41:45):
us understand like, what thatwould mean, that she's not just
the political leader of Israel,but also the spiritual leader at
this time.
Jason Alexander (41:52):
Yeah, I mean, it's more evidence of, I don't
want to say radical, but it is ait is a subversive picture of
women. And yeah, it's not like,Oh, you know, if there would
have been a better man, a mancould have done the job better.
And there weren't all men, youknow, like, I, I guess you could
say that you can see that here.
But I see more, the Spirit ofGod is involved in raising up
(42:13):
these prophets and judges. Sothis was God's choice. So yeah,
to to be a prophet is in somesense, right to speak for on
behalf of the deity. So I don'tget the impression I was messing
with Deborah. You know, like sheis she's a leader in Israel. And
you could put an Asterix next tothat, like people want to, they
(42:38):
say, Well, yeah, she was aleader, when there were no
better men. It's like, andyou're like, it doesn't change
the fact that, that this is whoGod has chosen to raise up, and
there'll be plenty of men injudges that don't do half as
good as she does. I don't knowif that's what you're driving.
Travis Albritton (42:57):
Well, and because I think the the contrast
is often made to the guy who'sleaving the army at this time.
Oh, risposte supposed to beright barrack. And, and we get
this really interesting storywhere, you know, Deborah would
sit under a tree and she wouldoffer judgments in a very
similar way that we see Moses dofor the people of Israel in a
similar way that we see Davidsupposed to be doing in his
(43:20):
kingship. And then Brock islike, Hey, we got this enemy
over here. Deborah says go fightthem. God says you need to fight
him. And he's like, I'm notgoing unless you're going. Yep.
And so one way this has beenread is like Brock should have
been leading but because he wasincapable or a poor leader. Got
had to settle for Deborah tolike, go and make this thing
(43:40):
happen. Brock didn't think thatno, no, no, not at all. The
impression you get is, Brockknows. Yeah. Hey, we need you.
We need Deborah. Yeah, I'm gonnamake sure that this thing turns
out favorably.
Jason Alexander (43:54):
Yeah, that's good. I need to spend more time
with that, Deborah, there. It'soverwhelming. You know, this
just re iterates the fact to me,cuz I'm very interested in how
women are portrayed inScripture. But there's, it's
just too There's too many, whichshould tell you something. There
are so many amazing stories ofwomen, like Deborah that I just
(44:16):
I need to spend more time with.
Corina Espejo (44:18):
So Deborah is one and I love hearing about many of
these women, as you'rementioning, let's talk about
Esther. I know Esther for 12 to17. Right? We're looking at this
dynamic between Mordecai. Andreally one of the statements is
Mordecai did as Esther commandedright and even going as far
(44:40):
Travis you mentioned rightEsther for 29 to 32 that she
even mandates the Festival ofpyram. But there's this dynamic
here. Let's let's talk a littlebit about Esther.
Jason Alexander (44:51):
Once again. You know, we talked about how help
as the idea of deliverance fromwhether big or small Moments of
need. And Esther shows up at atime when Israel's identity is
under serious threat. Right. Andthis is one of my advisors did a
(45:13):
lot of work in, in. So I guessit was one of my undergrad
advisors did a lot of work withEsther. And I, I feel bad that I
never really sought him out tolearn more. But the woman here
is is again a deliverer securingprocuring Israel safe safety at
a time when they're out to stampthem out. Right. And so she is
(45:37):
viewed as a hero of of thefaith. So there's no apology for
that. Again, we'd like to put anAsterix next to these, because
we're assuming that scripturewants to endorse a patriarchal
vision of society, and all thatthat means, but I think the
(45:58):
Bible is setting forth likenope, yeah, women are important
to God to you. And they'reimportant in his plan.
Travis Albritton (46:07):
And if we draw a thread back to the discussion
we had about Genesis two aboutthis aser word, again that
deliver we see both Mordecai andEsther play that role in the
story. Right that it is it ismore to Kai's persuasion, great
point that encourages Esther tostep into that role. So being
(46:29):
the help that Esther needs to bewho God has positioner to be
setting her up to then be thehelp that Israel needs in that
position of authority. And then,like Kareena mentioned at the
end of the book, Esther is theone who puts the stamp of
approval on the festival pyramto save this shall now be a new
(46:50):
festival, for the Israelitesforever and ever. Amen. Right
that before they were festivalsestablished, and the Torah, by
Moses in the desert. Right,right, right. And so now all of
a sudden, you got Esther, say,Oh, this is now a new festival
that we will have as anIsraelite community to remember
(47:13):
when God delivered us out of thehands of Harmon.
Jason Alexander (47:17):
Yeah, that's such a great point. It's
interesting. All of the holidayslike these five books, they
involve women in interestingways, like Lamentations is read
on to Shabbat of commemoratingthe fall of the temple.
Lamentations is offered in afeminine voice, Song of Songs
has an emphasis on the womanthat's that's the Passover
reading. And these are feminineparts of the Bible, read at the
(47:40):
holiest moments of Israel'sstory. So they're not
discriminating within tradition,like we want to, I'm convinced,
or at least some parts of thechurch wants to because of less
sophisticated readings of Paul,at the end of the day, but
you're right, she has someserious clout. in society, yeah.
Travis Albritton (48:03):
So if you're feeling overwhelmed, by just the
sheer number of stories,instances where feminine figures
take positions of leadership andauthority within the Israelite
community, you should feeloverwhelmed because it is
overwhelming, when you actuallyread into it. Now, we're not
saying this to say and now allleaders shall be women forever
(48:26):
and ever. We've alreadyestablished right, like, fathers
are good. Men are good women aregood. When God created man and
women, he said, very good,right? So this, we're not saying
this to replace the genderedpneus of the order of creation,
but simply to highlight andpoint out that the way that God
(48:46):
views women can stand in starkcontrast to the way that we
think a religious communityshould view women at least in
the way that we think of thevalue of women, the role of
women, the capacity of women, tostep up, and to move the mission
of God forward, which I justthink is incredible. And is just
completely consistent witheverything else we know about
(49:08):
God and how he loves each of us,right that there is no male
woman, Jew, Gentile, slave freeto God. We're all image bearers.
We're all his children. Yeah. Soit's cool to see that reinforced
over and over again, in thestories that he's given us in
the Bible. Well said Corina, youwant to bring us home with some
(49:30):
some takeaways,
Corina Espejo (49:31):
as we kind of look at the takeaways and I love
just to interweave and I'll behonest model for you all, real
time. For some of you theremight be pain points in this and
that's okay. I'm going to bevulnerable with all of you like
listening at first to Jason kindof walking through Wow, the
progression of the narrative inthe Bible was continued through
(49:55):
women. Honestly, at first it wasbased on their pregnancy and
being able to produce babies.
I'll be honest with you, therewas a part of me that was, at
first a little like, Oh, I feelawkwardly threatened and a
little odd about that. And but Ihave to stop and ask myself why,
like, Why do I feel that threat?
(50:15):
And is it appropriate for me?
And this is where I think I haveto honor Okay, yes, I do feel
threatened. But why as a modernday woman in the time that I'm
in now? And is it appropriatefor me to impose that
perspective on the biblicalnarrative that was written on a
different time for a differentsentiment? And I love what you
mentioned, Jason, that thatactually, it's almost like it's
a clause that women were to behonored because of their
(50:39):
contribution to the narrative,particularly for redemption, as
you mentioned, right forthinking about that list of
women that led to Jesus right.
There is honor woven there. ButI do have to wrestle with that,
that I have to be honest, andsay, Well, wait a second. Why
did I feel some type of way?
Hearing that hearing thatwomen's initial pardon in the
(51:01):
narrative and progression was inpregnancy was in childbearing,
and to see that it doesn't haveto be as villainous or nefarious
as as maybe a modern day Kareenamay feel that it's okay to say,
you know what, God is good, thathe partnered with women, and
then later to see the many waysthat he also use both men and
(51:22):
women, their mutuality, as wellas their complimentary roles,
that that these are notindications of men being
superior to women, or viceversa, right? That we really are
talking about. God valuing whowe are, as image bearers to
continue this incredible storyof love, of said of Covenant
(51:45):
love, and redemption. And thereare so many examples for those
of you who are like, man, I justwant to know more great because
there's so many more examples ofwomen taking the lead, but also
honoring their partnership withmen to live out God's will in
his heart. We're still not atthe point, though, where we can
(52:05):
say definitively like what womenor men can and can't do. You
know, so for example, y'all arejust waiting. Can women preach
on a Sunday, we're not thereyet. And we're not going to take
the bait, so don't even go forit. Don't do it. I love this,
this, these are greatconversations that honestly give
me incredible, incredible justhope and vision. Not just for
(52:27):
myself as a woman, but even forthe brothers in my life for the
men in my life. How exciting andfun. And you know, we mentioned
the word. All right, there'sincredible are there for what
God can do with people who justlove him and want to be more
like Him and want other peopleto be more like Him. It's very,
very cool.
Travis Albritton (52:48):
Yeah, Jason, you're muted. By the way,
Jason Alexander (52:50):
I was laughing and saying, amen. No doubt.
Travis Albritton (52:56):
Well, and if you're curious why we're taking
so much time in the OldTestament, before we get to the
passages that you're probablycurious about, it's because
those writings from Paul waseven the Apostle Peter said, he
can be very confusing, if youjust are trying to read and
understand what he's talkingabout. This is all the backdrop
for how the writers of the NewTestament thought about God and
(53:19):
their spiritual heritage. Sowhen they talk about roles in
the church, when they talk aboutgenders, when they talk about,
you know, spiritual gifts in thespirit at work, they're making
all these kinds of connectionsto the Old Testament that if you
don't have that foundation, canbe very jarring. And so this
(53:40):
groundwork we're laying, it willbear fruit. Once we get to those
more difficult passages, we'regoing to be able to look back
and reference the work we'vedone to help gain clarity about
some of the most contested, mostmisunderstood and misconstrued
verses in the entire Bible. Sothis is not a small thing we're
(54:00):
trying to do. But by taking itslow, and making sure we have a
big understanding of the Bibleas a whole, that's going to give
us more tools at our disposal tomake sense of things that don't
make a lot of sense when youfirst read them. It's good. Now,
if you have not yet signed up tobe a part of the podcast
(54:23):
newsletter, make sure you dothat just go to women church
podcast Comm. We'll send youupdates about new episodes as
they come out, as well asadditional guides and resources
to help you with your ownpersonal Bible study and
implementing the things that wewere talking about along the
way. And make sure to stay tunednext week, where Jason will be
joining us once again. And weare actually going to go into
the New Testament. We're goingto look at the ministry of Jesus
(54:44):
and the role that women playedin that ministry.
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