#6. The Art of Biblical Interpretation

In this episode, Corina and Travis dig into three different styles of hermeneutics and discuss why each of them are relevant to discover God's will for men and women in the church.

Resources We Mentioned:

• Getting the Most From the Bible by Steve Kinnard
• The View From Paul's Window by Jeanie Shaw
• "Does the Bible Condone Slavery?" from the All Things to All People Podcast

Sign up to receive Bible study guides, handouts, and resources that complement what you learn in this podcast by going to WomenChurchPodcast.com

Episode Transcript

Travis Albritton (00:01):
Welcome back to the women in the church
podcast where we take a freshlook at what the Bible teaches
about women in church for theICOC. Corina, we are on episode
six,

Corina Espejo (00:12):
We are here,

Travis Albritton (00:13):
we have made it clear, you're still with us.
We are grateful. We've covered alot of ground rather quickly. So
we've talked through more thantwo thirds of the Bible within
five episodes, really justlaying the groundwork for what
does the Bible holistically haveto say about women? And so
before we get into some of thejuicy your scriptures, once

(00:35):
you've probably tuned into thispodcast to hear about, we wanted
to just take a quick overview,look at how should we read these
passages? How should we read andunderstand the scriptures? And
how do we make sure we're askingthe right questions from the
scriptures and you have a coupleresources you wanted to share?
That'll be really illuminatingas we talk about the art of

(00:58):
biblical interpretation.

Corina Espejo (00:59):
Yeah, so my favorite and as we're begin to
talk about interpretingscripture, and even just
hermeneutics, and I know, it's,some of you are gonna say, why,
why are we doing this? Why doeshermeneutics matter? Before we
get into that, let's just talkabout what it is. Steve canard,
his book, getting the most fromthe Bible. He offers different
principles with regards toreading the Bible. And digging

(01:20):
deeper into Bible study, hedefines hermeneutics. He says,
hermeneutics is the study of theprinciples that pertain to the
proper interpretation ofScripture. In other words,
hermeneutics is studying how tointerpret. Now we've mentioned x
Jesus, and he puts these termsstacks right one up one after
another. He then goes on todefine x of Jesus, which we've
mentioned in this podcast, thatis the practice of application

(01:42):
of the principles of correctbiblical interpretation. This
should be what we do, wheneverwe study the Bible, then this is
something we haven't talkedabout, but it's good to again,
look at these terms, one afteranother exposition. exposition
is the communication of one'sinterpretation of Scripture to
another. This occurs whenever wepreach or teach the scriptures.

(02:03):
So it's just really good whenyou're thinking about Okay, what
are we talking about? What arewe doing? Let's, let's dive a
little bit into this. And thenone last just tidbit. It's
Jeannie Shaw's description, fromthe view from Paul's window, her
book, and she says, ourhermeneutic determines how we
will interpret the scriptures,our hermeneutic is the way in
which we apply scripture the wayin which we ask, how does this

(02:25):
passage apply to my life today?
And that is the big question.
And that is generally how peopleread the Bible. Right? They want
to know, what does this mean forme. And so I think it is
skilled, I'll say it that way,it's skilled for us not to avoid
what hermeneutics is and why itmatters. Because at the heart of
it, it's a big part of being aChristian and using the Bible to

(02:49):
help us through life.

Travis Albritton (02:51):
Right. And you may be listening to this, you
may be familiar with that word,you've heard it in a Bible study
class, or a Sunday school classor something like that. And I
know for a long time for me, Ialways thought of hermeneutics
is just like that middle step,taking the Bible for what it is
and what it has to offer, doingsomething in the middle, and
then figuring out what am Igonna do with my life now as a
disciple, and it's important torecognize that there actually is

(03:12):
a middle step? Right there.
We're not just reading the Bibleand doing what it says. There's
always an interpretation in themiddle, you know, and you might
contend with that idea that yousay, No, no, like, when Jesus
says, do something, I do it. Butthere are lots of things in the
Bible that it says veryspecifically and very directly,
that we don't do. Because fromthe view of proper
interpretation, we know, that'seither not relevant to the

(03:35):
situation we're trying to figureout. Or it was meant in a
context that's different thanours. And so it's not something
that we should practice or itwould be good to practice as a
faith community. And sointerpretation is not a bad
thing. It's actually reallynecessary really important for
proper Bible study. But we gotto make sure we're doing it

(03:55):
right. And understanding thedifferent frameworks that you
can look at the Bible through isvery helpful and kind of
breaking those down. So in thisepisode, we're going to walk
through three hermeneutics, thatyou may have some level of
connection to either personally,or you've heard of these, and
how each of them gives us adifferent flavor of what the

(04:18):
Bible has to offer. And in orderto kind of go through a case
study, we're actually going toread a passage that is pretty
popularly connected to thequestion of women's roles in
ministry and women's roles inthe church. And that is
Galatians chapter three, verse26, through 29. So Corina, you
are the voice of the Bible apphere on the women in the church

(04:41):
podcast. So why don't you goahead and read Galatians chapter
three, verse 26 through 29 forus

Corina Espejo (04:48):
can do I'm waiting for my paycheck, by the
way, my voice over paycheck.
Alright. Galatians 3:26 to 29.
So in Christ Jesus, you are allchildren of God. Through faith,
for all of you who were baptizedinto Christ, have closed
yourselves with Christ, there isneither Jew nor Gentile, neither
slave nor free, nor is theremale nor female, for you are all

(05:10):
one in Christ Jesus. If youbelong to Christ, then you are
Abraham's seed, and heirsaccording to the promise. And I
read that in an IV. So that'sthe password we're

Travis Albritton (05:19):
going to be dissecting from multiple angles.
And the first hermeneutic we'regoing to talk about is what in
the Church of Christ circles iscalled the blueprints
hermeneutic. And as we describethis, this may feel very
familiar, because this is thepredominant hermeneutic or
interpretation that historicallythe international Churches of

(05:39):
Christ have used. And it's thisidea that when we think about
church practice, and we thinkabout how we do church, whether
it's bible talks or worshipservices on Sundays, or you
know, discipling, relationships,those kind of things, we're
trying to model, a pattern thatwe are looking for in the New

(06:00):
Testament. Yeah, right, thatthere is, there is a way to do
the kingdom of God as Christianslaid out with examples and
commands in, especially acts andthe epistles the letters of
Paul. And that pattern informshow we worship, then how we do
church. And so the questionsthat you will ask, whenever

(06:23):
you're trying to dig down to ananswer about something related
to worship or ministry, is whatare the authorized church
practices that we see observedin Acts and the epistles that
will reflect this worshiping inspirit and in truth approach
that Jesus lays out for us injohn chapter four, right. And

(06:43):
that really is the emphasis ofthe restoration movement, which
is our spiritual heritage, thatwe're connected to the churches
of Christ and the Christianchurches in that way. And so
that is the blueprinthermeneutic we are looking to
the Bible to help us understandhow did the original Christians
try to do church? And then howdo we imitate the aspects of

(07:05):
that are both relevant andconstructive for us today?

Corina Espejo (07:10):
Yeah, and I grew up on this, I didn't realize it
until now. And now I just mean,in my later, the most recent
years of my spiritual journey,but growing up with this tool,
and I'll call them tools, right?
They're just different ways thatwe interpret there's nothing
overtly bad, there's nothingovertly good. It'll just depend
on the situation and how we usethis tool, I'm not going to use

(07:31):
a hammer to try and take off abolt, right, I need a wrench. So
thinking about thesehermeneutics, as we go through
them that way will be superhelpful. So I grew up. This is
the tool of choice blueprinthermeneutic. Some of the
strengths with blueprinthermeneutic are that it places a
high emphasis on Bible study andobedience, I find often, church

(07:52):
cultures that have blueprinthermeneutic, the culture itself
can feel very secure, becausethings are very clear
expectations are super clear.
And it's this is what we do,this is what we don't do. That's
the strength and in a verydelicate way. I think the
downside to that the weakness isgoing to be that it really draws

(08:16):
in those who tend to fall moreon it, a legalistic way of
looking at things and definitelynot in any kind of a good way.
We all need lawyers. That's notwhat we're talking about here.
legalism, it can often comeacross as prideful. And the
expression you have here ismajoring in the minors. And I
think it really draws in thoseand again, these things that I'm

(08:38):
going to mention they're notovertly bad, but I want you all
to think about yourself. Thistype of tool blueprint
hermeneutic will draw in thoseI've seen more inclined towards
absolutism. Black and Whitethinkers. This is right, this is
wrong, we do this, we don't dothat. And it tends to draw on

(08:58):
those types of people, but notin a good way, it tends to draw
them out in a way that comesacross incredibly judgmental. So
but there's going to be pros andcons, to all of these things.
Actually, there's a podcast thatKyle Spears does called truth,
trauma and theology. And heinterviews a brother Dave, I
forget his last name, but theytalk a little bit about this in

(09:19):
a very gracious way. But it's soeye opening to see okay, when we
only choose blueprinthermeneutic and how that can
guide our culture and the boththe downsides, and even some
benefits, but mostly beingcareful not to repeat history. I
love that episode that they do.
And it definitely helps me tosee the place that blueprint
hermeneutic can have. And it'snot going to be the tool of

(09:41):
choice always and it shouldn'tbe so.

Travis Albritton (09:44):
Right Well, and just to kind of reiterate
the good and the bad. Like thereare times where no, we really do
want to know, what were theearly Christians committed to
and how do we model that becausethey were the closest to Jesus.
Right? They were learningdirectly from the apostle who
had lived with Jesus? And sothose are valuable pieces of
insight and wisdom that it wouldbe wrong for us to not consider

(10:07):
and to try and figure out how dowe incorporate that into our
worship? Yeah. But if we look athow that way of thinking has
shaped other denominationsrelated to ours, and even to
ours, what ends up happening isyou start drawing a lot of lines
in the sand, and getting boggeddown in questions about like,

(10:29):
very finessed topics, you know,should communion be from one
cup, or from many cups? Therehave been lines drawn in the
sand on that question? Becauseif there is a timeless pattern
in the New Testament, and it'svitally important, we get it
right. And you're convinced thatyou figured it out, then you owe

(10:50):
it to everyone else to explainwhy they're wrong. And get them
to your to see your side, right.
And so we can place so muchemphasis on trying to discover
this pattern of how the churchthat it can, instead of seeking
to bring us together in a youthunified fashion, and just
dividing us more, because nowit's, you know, if you don't

(11:12):
hold to everything that Iunderstand about how to do
church, then we can't do churchtogether. And so again, that's
not to say that, it's not a badthing that we should want to do
what God has called us to, andthe New Testament does give us
that information. But we justwant to make sure that it's also
consistent with the way that wesee Jesus to his ministry, and

(11:32):
also the way that we see thechurch actually functioning in
the New Testament. Because ifyou look through the New
Testament, and you look at thewriting styles of Peter of
James, of Paul, of john, theydon't necessarily lean on this
type of hermeneutic. Whenexplaining why certain commands
are important, or rooting it inthe Old Testament, instead, they

(11:57):
lean more on the secondhermeneutic. We're going to talk
about here in a second. Butbefore we get there, if we're
thinking about applying thisblueprint, hermeneutic to this
passage we just read, and to thequestion at large of what is the
role of women in the church,then the question you're going
to approach the Bible with iswhich scriptures and acts in the
epistles directly answer thequestion we are asking. Yep. And

(12:20):
if we find some, that do seem todirectly answer that question,
those scriptures, and thosescriptures only will determine
our church practice, becauseafter all, we're not a church
from the Old Testament. We'renot the Israelites. Jesus's
ministry was pre Christian,right, it was still a Jewish

(12:40):
ministry. And so if we want toknow how we're gonna do
Christian church, then those arethe scriptures that we will look
to, to inform our understandingof how to answer this question,

Corina Espejo (12:52):
as you're talking. And as I'm thinking
about blueprint, hermeneutic.
And I think back to thequestion, Jeannie Shaw, draws,
right if we're going to dohermeneutik, it's going to be
because we want to answer thequestion, how does this passage
apply to my life today? I thinkgrowing up with blueprint
hermeneutik, one of thestrengths which as as we
continue to mature and develop,might become a negative. But I

(13:14):
think if you find that it's astrength, I wonder if you've
experienced something I didgrowing up, which was being
secure, and clarity. And I findthere was room in my brain to
just to continue life becausethings were just clear, it was
like, this is what we're doing.
This is what the Bible says,let's just do it. Right. And I

(13:38):
think there were some benefitsto that to my faith in that I
didn't have to kind of Bumblearound in an insecure or like
unsure manner. I think where myfaith began to stretch was I
began to rely too much on thoselines in the sand, I was relying
on those to dictate my faith.
And it didn't leave much roomfor the Holy Spirit to guide me

(14:00):
and to understand a really big,majestic God. But there are
certainly things about God thatare finite that are that are
very clear, in I think, verysimple, beautifully simple ways
and that everything doesn't haveto be more than that, that
things can stay simple for agood reason. So I know Galatians
328 we're looking at blueprinthermeneutics, yes, and how we

(14:23):
can look at Galatians 326 to 29I want to hear your thoughts if
I'm following a blueprint.
hermeneutic How would I look atthe passage we read in
Galatians?

Travis Albritton (14:36):
So if you're looking at the Bible from a
blueprint, hermeneutic trying toanswer the question, what is the
role of women in church in thepublic assembly? This passage is
not relevant to answering thatquestion. The reason is because
it's not directly speaking tothat. Right. It's speaking to
grace and salvation at largethat, you know, we are all

(14:57):
Abraham's children. Now, whetherYou are a male, female, Jew,
Gentile, slave free. And so thatspeaks to the grace of God, it
speaks to this, this idea that,you know, Christianity is not
just for the Jews anymore. Andthere's no delineation between,
like, if you're a slave ifyou're a free person, you know,

(15:18):
and even today, we think, youknow, the ICRC, we're very
diverse. We're a very diversegroup of churches, which is one
of our strengths is somethingwe're really great, really great
at is we have a lot of diversitywithin our churches. And so we
totally embody that spirit oflike, yeah, like, there's no
people group that we would everconsider excluding from the

(15:38):
Gospel. Right. But that, in andof itself, does not necessarily
directly answer the question of,well, can a woman preach on a
Sunday? And so if you're doing astudy of the New Testaments,
trying to get to this question,from a blueprint, hermeneutic,
then you wouldn't look to thisscripture to necessarily help
you answer that. So for

Corina Espejo (15:57):
a blueprint, hermeneutic, this scripture is
irrelevant. Like this hasnothing to say to me on on
women's roles.

Travis Albritton (16:02):
I mean, nothing is like really strong.
It's a nice footnote to kind ofadd to the spirit in the heart
of the gospel. But if we'regetting into like, okay, order
of service on Sunday, someone'sdelivering the sermon. Is that a
man or a woman? Or can it be aman or a woman? Doesn't matter?
This passage would not answerthat from that perspective.

Corina Espejo (16:26):
Okay. We have more more tools to go through
more hermeneutics

Travis Albritton (16:30):
more

Corina Espejo (16:30):
tools. Let's go through so we have our next one
theological hermeneutic. Yeah.
Would you define that one?

Travis Albritton (16:35):
So theological hermeneutic, would be looking at
the Bible as a way of informingour view of God, you know, that
within the ICSC and therestoration movement, other
Christians have looked at us andsaid, Oh, your Trinity is God,
Jesus and the Holy Bible. And,and so we can definitely

(16:57):
overemphasize the Bible at theexpense of understanding the
being on the other side of it,right? So a theological
hermeneutic would be looking atthe Bible as a way of
understanding who God is seeingwhat he has done in the lives of
people that in the way that he'sinteracted with believers
through human history, in orderto know what is required of us,

(17:19):
or how might we participate inGod's mission? And so the
question that you would ask, ifwe're digging into this women in
the church question is, what isthe heart of God towards men and
women? And how can we imitatethat in our church practices?
Right? How can the way we dochurch, the way we interact with
each other, the way we relate toeach other, the way we live out

(17:42):
our one another scriptures? Howcan the practice of the way we
do that reflects the heart ofGod, in everything that we do?
The great

Corina Espejo (17:51):
thing about theological hermeneutic, it
often looks for a big picturenarrative, the holistic view of
Scripture, and it really looksto see okay, everything is
relevant. from Old Testament NewTestament, this passage is going
to tell me something not justhere. But the big picture story.
It can be super resilient andnot be as affected by the world

(18:14):
and the culture that can changeover time or region to region,
it can feel a little bit more,I'll say, static, in how it
looks at scripture, because it'sjust looking at it within God
who God is. The weaknesses isthat it often emphasizes
knowledge over action, I thinkpeople can feel like those who

(18:35):
tend to constantly pull for themfrom theological hermeneutic
tool, go for that. They comeacross as apathetic and
indifferent. They're constantlythinking about things rather
than acting. I also wonder, andthese are all just, I'm
considering these concepts. ButI wonder if theological
hermeneutic speaks to and drawsin the idealist or the

(18:59):
contextual list or relativist,and it really draws those people
in that might this might betheir tool of choice,
theological hermeneutic. And ifyou don't know what that is,
Google it, and I'll probablymake more sense. But these are
some of those things, I wonder,because it keeps things in this
philosophical heti this is God,rather than say, blueprint
hermeneutic of what do we do?
Okay, let's let's do somethingGalatians 328, you made it, you

(19:21):
made a connection here, if I'mlooking at this with a
theological hermeneutic mind,how would I, what would I pull
from Galatians? Three?

Travis Albritton (19:31):
So especially in the context of this question,
right? What is the Bible? Whatdoes the Bible communicate about
God's heart towards men andwomen, as image bearers as
partners in his mission? Throughcreation? We see an echo of
Genesis two, with Galatiansthree, we see a fulfillments of
sorts, right? And thatreinforces that in God's good

(19:55):
creation, there is not meant tobe a power structure. Among in
between image bearers of oneperson, using force or power, to
take advantage of or oppressanother one, and that we see
that dynamic played out in thekingdom of God, right that we're
all sinners at the foot of thecross, or you've probably heard

(20:16):
that statement echoed from manya pulpit. And that's totally
true. And the scripture reallyspeaks to that. Right? That it
doesn't matter if in the world,you're a slave or not, it
doesn't matter if you're a manin a male dominated society, or
if you're a woman, right? Itdoes not matter in the kingdom
of God. We're all equal here.
And so that should be reflectedin how we relate to and serve

(20:37):
one another. Now, one thing Iwas thinking about, as I was
putting this note in theoutline, that can sounds like
we're saying that there shouldbe no leadership in the church,
right? That there's nohierarchy, there's no structure,
there's no, there's no powerstructures, where one person is
dictating to others in God'screation, and potentially, in

(20:58):
this kingdom of God that we'retalking about. That means we
have no leaders. Well, that'sdefinitely not what we're
saying, because it is aspiritual gift. After all,
leadership is something that Godhas in the church, there's a lot
of Scripture that talks aboutJesus, servant style leadership,
right. But what we do see in theBible, and what Galatians three
speaks to is that in the kingdomof God, everyone is equally

(21:21):
valued, and called to use theirgifts to edify the body of
Christ. And so you know, acommon refrain that we've used
in our movement is that everydisciples in the full time
ministry, right, whether you'reon staff or not, that everyone
is called to fulfill the missionof God. And that's really what
Galatians three is talking aboutthat, whether you're in the full
time ministry, preaching frombehind a pulpit, or if you're

(21:43):
stacking chairs in the back, orif you're leading a small group,
or you going on a missionplanting, like we're all equally
valuable in the family of God.
And Galatians. Three is reallyspeaking to that heart.

Corina Espejo (21:56):
Let's move on to the third one, I'm

Travis Albritton (21:57):
ready, you're ready to go?

Corina Espejo (21:59):
Ready. I think it was a great, it was great. So
trajectory hermeneutic. This isthe third tool we'll be talking
about today. And again, I callthem tools, trajectory.
hermeneutic. Alright, what's theTravis synopsis of trajectory
hermeneutic? Well, and

Travis Albritton (22:12):
this one is probably the least known,
because it's really trying tosummarize a bunch of different
ideas together into somethingthat's kind of concise. If you
want to get a more detailed kindof rundown of what this would
look like. We have a link in ourresources list, to a paper that
the Midwest teachers circle, puttogether from inside of our

(22:33):
family of churches, on seeking aclear human hermeneutic and the
role of women. And in there,they lay out what this
trajectory hermeneutic lookslike. But essentially, the
trajectory hermeneutic isanalyzing the trajectory of
God's will, as is revealed overtime, to discern where God is
taking his people and hiscreation. Now, what does that

(22:57):
mean?
If we're looking at the Bible,as a story that has a beginning,
a middle and an end, and thepeople at the beginning of the
story, the Abraham's with theworld, that lived in the ancient
world, they were experiencingGod in a different way. Because
they were even before Mosesthere before that you had the

(23:19):
law before Israel is even athing. And so there's a certain
way that God interacts withthem. And then we see the nation
of Israel, and there's a certainway that God interacts with
them, and the kind ofinstruction he gives to them the
kind of expectation he has forthem, as the people of God, and
then we get to Jesus, and Jesussays, a lot of this, you have
heard it said, but I'd say untoyou, kind of language, right?

(23:41):
You've heard it said, Do notmurder. Well, I tell you don't
even become angry with yourbrother, right? Or, you know,
you've heard it said, do notcommit adultery, I tell you
don't even lust, right? And sothere's this progression of
God's will, how he wantscreation to function, unveiled

(24:02):
over time, through the Bible.
And this idea of a trajectory isif, if at the beginning of the
Bible, we shoot an arrow,there's a target downrange. And
that arrow is carrying usthrough the narrative of the
Bible towards this targets. Andthe trajectory hermeneutic is
trying to figure out what is thetargets? Yeah, where are we
going? Where is God taking us?

(24:26):
Another concept that's veryhelpful in trying to kind of
pick apart what this hermeneuticwould be, is this idea of God's
ultimate will, or hisprovisional will, and the
differences between them soultimate, well, the what is God
really wants? At the end of theday, at the end of time, what
does God desire? What does Godcrave? And there are things that

(24:48):
we know about that, like we knowGod wants to be reconciled? He
wants to destroy the barrierthat sin creates between him and
his image bearers. We know thatJesus has been given all three
Right, like those are, those areGod's ultimate will. provisional
will are things that he allowsin the moments that are not
reflective of what he actuallywants. So some examples from the

(25:11):
Old Testament polygamy, right?
So Abraham, God's chosen dudesays, All right, Sarah is not
having any kids. So let me justgo ahead and impregnate her
servants. And then we get toIsrael and the founding fathers,
the 12 pillars, the 12 tribes,those 12 men were born from for
women. Yeah, but the samehusband. By the time we get to

(25:34):
Jesus's day, polygamy is all butdisappeared. In the nation of
Israel, right? they'veidentified this is not God's
will. This is not what Godwants, we get indications of
that, and the laws that they putthat he puts forth. In the
Torah, we see negative examplesof how polygamy goes awry. And
so we can see, if we pick apartthe details, okay? God does not

(25:55):
want polygamy, that's not asintense as somebody once. And so
we can actually see thatprogress through Scripture.
Slavery would be anotherexample. So slavery in the Bible
is not necessarily talked aboutin the way that us in the 21st
century would hope or wish thatGod would talk about right that

(26:15):
we see that there are certainrules and laws put in place in
the Old Testament regarding howIsraelites were to treat slaves.
Even in the New Testament, wesee Paul giving instructions to
slaves and to their masters. Andso if you're just looking at
this as like, this is exactlywhat God wants, then, as our
brothers and sisters did 150years ago, you could look at the

(26:39):
Bible and say, Well, it seemslike slavery is a part of God's
creation. Right? There's nothingin the Bible that overtly says,
slavery bad. It's just bereally, really good to your
slaves is kind of the messagethat you get if you're just
looking at the Bible, on itsown. But if you look at the
progression of the teaching ofthe Bible towards slavery, then

(27:01):
you get this full story thatculminates in what we've talked
about this idea of imagebearers, and power structures,
and how that was not God'sintent. And draw a very straight
line to slavery is not a part ofthe kingdom of God in the way
that God wants it to be. And sothis trajectory, hermeneutic

(27:23):
would take us there, that evenif the Bible itself does not
say, Christians can't ownslaves, we can look at it and
say, I mean, it very clearly ispointing us in that direction.
So that's where we should go. Weshouldn't say, let's completely
resurrect the first centurychurch, and just leave it locked
in time. We want to also learnfrom their mistakes. We want to

(27:47):
also see what God was doing withthem in the context of those
scriptures and those passages inthe books of the Bible and try
to discern, where does he wantus to go from here? Where should
we go from here? And how shouldthat impact the way that we do
church, the way that weevangelize and the way that we

(28:09):
disciple each other?

Corina Espejo (28:11):
Yeah, it's interesting. I looking at, you
know, blueprint theological. Andas you're talking within
trajectory, which era is not themost popular, but the question
kind of comes up, okay, shouldrestoring the practices of the
first century church be our goalas a fellowship? when we're
thinking about things in atrajectory? hermeneutic? You

(28:31):
know, in a lot of ways, we'd sayno, because then we would bring
back slavery because that thatdid exist in the first century
church. And we would think,well, that's okay, then right.
Michael burns, he interviews,Dr. Richard Rodriguez on his
podcast, all things to allpeople. And they do a phenomenal
job of breaking that down and insaying exactly what you're
saying. So if you want to hear alittle bit more about that and
dive a little bit more, we haveresources, they are out there,

(28:54):
there are resources for you, toreally look at these things in
different angles. One of thepositives, this shrinks to
trajectory hermeneutic. Itpoints us to God's intent, just
like you're talking about beyondthe fallen world we live in. And
it helps us to understand whythe Bible omits things we would
expect it to say, and it in asimilar fashion to theological

(29:17):
hermeneutic. It kind of gives usthe big picture, but it's not
necessarily big picture aboutGod, and who he is. It's more of
a big picture of where we'regoing, what we should be aiming
for, and not just what do we doright here in the moment. One of
the weaknesses to directtrajectory hermeneutic is that
we can read conclusions into theBible that aren't actually

(29:38):
there. And it can leave peoplefeeling unsafe or even radical
to some individuals in a waythat is almost independent of
God we feel we're kind of goingoutside of what is plain what is
simple to create a story thatisn't there yet that hasn't been
written. And we're taking itupon ourselves to to write them

(29:59):
and you know, Again, theweakness I and I don't know if
it's a weakness, but I think,trajectory hermeneutic, it tends
to draw in those inclined to acertain realism and an analysis.
These individuals love analyzingthings, and drawing conclusions.
And this is where we're at, thisis what it was. And this is

(30:20):
where it will, will be. Andthose things in and of
themselves don't have to be bad,but I can definitely see, I
could definitely see where thatcan go awry.

Travis Albritton (30:28):
Yeah, totally.
So those are definitely thestrengths and the weaknesses.
And if you as a leader, were notlistening to that, and not
having like red flags pop up inyour mind, you should have,
there should be red flagspopping up saying, Okay, I
understand why this could be avaluable tool for reading and
interpreting the Bible. Yeah.

(30:49):
But there are a lot of ways thatcan go wrong. So if you want to
see how this hermeneutic getshijacked, that's how we have
what is now been termedprogressive Christianity, which
has moved beyond the Bible ofScripture, and said, this
scripture was really relevant inthis time in place, but we have
now matured beyond it. And whichleads us to some really funky

(31:12):
theology, when you startneglecting scripture in favor of
what you project the trajectoryto be. So this is definitely one
that while it is a very valuabletool needs to be handled
exceptionally well, with a lotof precision. And, as with all
good interpretation, you want tomake sure that the conclusions

(31:33):
and conclusions you come towhether it's blueprint,
theological or trajectory, areconsistent with what you know
about the rest of the Bible,right? That if you come to a
conclusion about something, andthen you look at the Bible and
say, well, that's not here atall, then maybe your conclusion
isn't what it should be one lastkind of tangible example that I

(31:53):
want to dig into Before wediscuss how Galatians three
would be relevant, or how youwould read it through this
hermeneutic. And this can help Ithink, grounds this idea, and is
something that's more familiar,is the the teaching in the Bible
of the kingdom of God. Allright, that this was Jesus's
main thing, The kingdom of Godis near repent, The kingdom of
heaven is near right, dependingwhich gospel you read, it would

(32:16):
either say, Kingdom of Heaven orkingdom of God. And the message
of the apostles and acts was,the kingdom has arrived, it is
here it is breaking in. If youwant to go and do a deep dive on
this topic, there's a greatseries of books that you can
pick up on ipi, which is theICSC bookstore, on the kingdom

(32:36):
of God, by Tom Jones and SteveBrown, who are two teachers
inside of our movement. And thatreally opens your eyes to Okay,
The kingdom of God is not justin heaven, like in some ethereal
place. But it's also here, it'salso present. It means that as
disciples, to be a light to theworld around us means to model

(33:00):
what it will look like living inheaven. After Judgement Day,
like when we are actually incommunion with God and with each
other. That is what we're tryingto do here. That's what it means
to bring the kingdom of God toearth. And so but but we're not
quite very yet, right? We stilllive in this fallen world where
there is sin, there is pain,there is hurt. And so it's

(33:23):
arrived. But it's not fully hereyet. And so a trajectory
hermeneutic is consistent withthe kingdom of God, because
kingdom of God is pointing youtowards that end target. Yeah.
Right, which is, one day when weget to have fellowship with God
uninterrupted, then what is thatgoing to look like? And how do
we model that here? Right,you're using a trajectory

(33:46):
hermeneutic, to pull thoseanswers from the future and make
them practical and relevant inthe presence, you know, to ask
what does it look like as afaith community to live as we
would if the new heaven and newearth were already fully
present? So hopefully, if you'refamiliar with the kingdom of
God, if you're familiar withthat theme in the Bible, that
can kind of make this really farout topic hermeneutic

(34:09):
interpretation tool, feel alittle more grounded, and see
why it's really useful for ustrying to figure out what things
do we adopt from the NewTestament churches? And what
things do we mature beyondthrough the work of the Holy
Spirit in our lives and in ourunderstanding of God's will?
This is a really useful tool fordoing that. And I said one last

(34:31):
thing. But one last thing. WhenCorina, you asked the question
of is restoring the firstcentury church is that really
the best goal for us? Is thatreally the target we should be
aiming for? And I think it'simportant for us to stop and
consider that we are to actuallydoing that. Even if we say that
we're doing that, because Idon't know about you, but I

(34:53):
don't want to model the churchin Corinth. That was a hot mess
of a situation and we're gonnadig into some of coming up in a
couple episodes, I don't want tomodel the church in Galicia,
which this passage is beingpulled out from that region,
like these churches had issues.
That's why these letters arebeing written to correct these
issues. Yeah. Right. And so whenwe're talking about restoring

(35:15):
the first century church, we'reactually not just applying a
blueprint hermeneutic of whatwere the correctives that were
given to say, okay, that's whatthey should have been doing. For
we're actually taking aperfected, idealized version of
that first century church, andwe're trying to implement that.
Yeah. Which is trajectory.
hermeneutic. Yeah, we're lookingat the Bible to inform what

(35:37):
should have been, and what Godwants, and pulling that into our
presidents. So even though thesecan feel like very different
tools, that give you verydifferent answers, they all play
together. And it's when you pullall of these different
perspectives, and all thesedifferent vantage points
together, yep, that you actuallyget a holistic view of the
Bible, and can then walk awaywith answers to questions like,

(36:01):
what is the role of women in thechurch? Yeah, from a place that
is resilience that allows youto, to understand both the
strengths and the weaknesses ofthe different arguments and
different stances that peopletake. And they have the humility
to understand our ownshortcomings in our
understanding of the Bible. Sobefore we jump into how would a

(36:22):
trajectory hermeneutic,interpret Galatians three, let's
actually backtrack a little bitand go through all three of
these. And then we'll end withtrajectory hermeneutics. So
Corina, watch, you cue that upfor us? What's the context of
this passage? Who is beingwritten to and then let's walk
through how each of thesehermeneutics would be applied?
If you were answering ourquestion, what is the role of

(36:44):
women in the church? But thenjust the broader question of how
does the scripture apply to me?

Corina Espejo (36:48):
Yeah, well, I'm not gonna lie. I'm using my home
in rainbow Study Bible thatgives me these answers directly
at the beginning. So I'm goingto rely on that. Let's talk a
little bit about the context. Sothe Apostle Paul, he was writing
to the church in Galicia. Andreally, when we look at the
church of glacia, most peoplebelieve that there were a lot of

(37:09):
Jews there, and there wereGentiles. There were non Jews
there. But it creates thisfriction, as we know,
characteristic of the firstcentury church. So some of what
we read in Galatians, is reallyabout addressing some of that
friction, and addressing maybethe law of Moses, and salvation
and what that means for us, butlanding on common themes

(37:33):
throughout Galatians, which isthat salvation is a gift. It's a
gift given in grace, and it isdependent on faith in Christ
Jesus. And that's an exciting Ilove that topic. I think it's a
great overarching principle. Andwhen we look at Galatians,
three, and where it sits inthat, it kind of it makes a lot
of sense. It makes a lot ofsense, why that passage

(37:54):
Galatians three talks about allthese different types of people
in why they are all children ofGod, in the context that we're
reading it in.

Travis Albritton (38:02):
So then how would someone reading this from
a blueprint? hermeneutic? Decidewhat does this mean for me? What
does this mean for us as achurch? What are the church
practices that we could developor create that would allow us to
live out what we read inGalatians 326 through 29,

Corina Espejo (38:21):
when I look at this scripture, and I'm putting
on that blueprint, hermeneuticmind, I'm using that as my tool,
I think the practicals that Itake away of like, Okay, what do
I do? What are the practices?
The first thing that my mindwent to was through faith that
first verse 26, so in ChristJesus, you are all children of
God, through faith, My mind wentto Okay, what do I do, I need to
make sure my faith is onstraight, I need to increase my

(38:43):
faith. I'm seeing somepracticals here of if this is a
big part of our identity, thenthen this is a next step for me.
The next step to let's say, Iwasn't baptized, but verse 27,
it's clear for all of you whoare baptized into Christ, have
closed yourselves with Christ.
My next question is Okay, wait aminute, wait a minute, am I
baptized? Am I close in Christ?
That would be my next questionof like, Where am I at? Am I

(39:04):
doing what's right? Am I where Ineed to be? And then the next
question, or the next thing thatstood out to me is in verse 29,
it says, If you belong toChrist, then you are Abraham's
seed and heirs according to thepromise, according to the
promise, my first thought was,okay, what is the promise? And
where do I stand on that? Do Ineed to do anything to make sure
that I belong in Christ to makesure that I'm there, and in

(39:27):
Galatians, as a whole, not justlooking at Galatians, three,
there are going to be somethings that come into play like
the Holy Spirit, like the law,and how that relates to me, it's
going to you know, it's funny,actually, the chapter right
after that talks about legalismin the church, but I'm going to
be looking at some of thesethings. If I you know, and we
live in a Western church, so Iwould probably gloss right over

(39:49):
circumcision, but that's clearlynot going to apply to me. I
there's nothing I can do withthat. But these are some of the
things if I'm looking at this. Idon't know if it's great. Lupron
her hermeneutics are not, butthat's what I would look for. I
would like comb through thisbook and look for those types of
things. That's pretty spot onCorina, awesome, you

Travis Albritton (40:06):
did a good job. Cool, a couple little
tidbits that I'll add. And theseare just bonus, you don't pay
extra for these is Galatians isone of the earliest writings in
the New Testamentchronologically. And so we know
from the book of Acts to thevery beginning, the church was
predominantly Jewish. For thefirst 10 years or so it was a
Jewish movements, or a movementwithin Judaism would be the

(40:30):
better way to say it. And thenonly after Peter has his vision,
they have this council inJerusalem, they have Paul come
down to Jerusalem to talk aboutwhat's going on in Antioch and
in other areas of the world at atime. And then that's when they
say, okay, the Gospels forGentiles as well. But that
doesn't mean that just becausethe council in Jerusalem said so

(40:51):
that all problems between Jewsand Gentiles have been erased.
Yeah, and that we're justsinging Kumbaya around a
campfire anymore. One of thepredominant false teachings that
continued even after that pointwas that if you were to be a
Christian, a true Christian, atrue believer, you had to become
a Jew first, before you couldbecome a Christian. And that

(41:12):
group is called the judaizers.
Makes sense, right? And so,Bible scholars believe there was
this false teaching going aroundin this region in Galatians. And
so this little snippet ofscripture in middle of the book
of Galatians is like hitting thenail right on the head and
saying, you've got it wrong,guys. This isn't just a Jewish
faith. This is for everyone.

(41:37):
Yeah, doesn't matter if you'reJew or Gentile, slave free,
male, female. You are allAbraham's seed. And so that
blueprint of this is how theearly church thought about the
gospel, that it wasn't strictlylimited to the Jewish people.
Yeah, but it was a gospel. Foreveryone who is a you on galley

(41:58):
on a good news for everyone.
Yeah. And so our church practiceshould reflect that, that when
we are sharing our faith whenwe're reaching the last in our
communities, that we are doingthat that we are diverse in the
people that we're pursuing,because there was no one that
would be excluded from thatmessage or that opportunity.
Yeah. So that's how you wouldread Galatians three from a

(42:21):
blooper hermeneutic. And again,recognize the question of how
does this inform the role ofwomen serving on Sundays from a
blueprint hermeneutic is it doesnot enter this would not be a
part of the Scriptures you wouldlook to, to answer this
question. Yeah.

Corina Espejo (42:38):
All right. Am I trying on theological
hermeneutics

Travis Albritton (42:40):
try on your theological hermeneutic at
Corina

Corina Espejo (42:42):
cool, all right, if I'm putting on and I am going
to pick up my theologicalhermeneutic and looking at
Galatians three, verses 2629.
Honestly, the the biggest thingthat would stand out to me is
that last verse 29, about if youbelong to Christ, then you are
Abraham's seed, I think, thetheological hermeneutic. And we
would be like, here we go, OldTestament, Abraham's seed, we're
talking about the promises. Andwe're, we're talking about this

(43:05):
big narrative and looking atGalatians as a whole, I would be
drawn to the gospel of theMessiah, right? There's an
excitement there, I would bedrawn to even just moving
forward when chapter five talksabout freedom in Christ, it
talks about, oh, even evenchapter four covenants, right?
The covenants of Abraham's twosons, these are the things I'm

(43:28):
going to be drawn to andbuilding that big picture
understanding. You know, it'sfunny, I'm like, I get stuck
there, because my blueprinthermeneutic mind goes, Okay, now
what, but that's it, right? Butthe theological hermeneutic
goes, yay, we've arrived, right?
Like, there's fulfillment of theprophecies. And, and I almost
want to go and you know, that'sit. That's, that's the period.

Travis Albritton (43:51):
Right? So, just purely from a theological
hermeneutic you're trying todiscern what is the heart of
God? That would be it right?
That this just reinforces thegospel message, God's design,
his intent from the beginning,for a nation of priests in
Israel to be a light to bringother nations to him, the
fulfillment, the culmination ofthat with Jesus, and how now

(44:13):
that door has been opened to allthe nations, and that we see
this. We see God's heart inthat, right we see God's desire
for communion and relationshipwith everyone. And that even
though we still live in a worldthat has discrepancy, it has
struggle has sin, it has pain,it has hurt, where people take

(44:37):
advantage of each other. Yeah,that is not what God wants. In
his church. That is not hisdesire. That is not his heart,
for us to be oppressing eachother. And so when we think
about church practice, or how asdisciples, we're going to live
that out. We want a model thatgrace first mindset Right, we

(44:58):
want to model that, that heartof God. And, you know, ask the
question, What would Jesus do?
Right? What would God do? If hewere here in my seat in this
situation? interacting with thisperson? Yeah. And what are the
principles that I take fromscriptures like Galatians three,

(45:19):
that helped him form my view ofwho God is and what matters to
him. And so as I go through mylife, I use wisdom to apply that
to my unique circumstances ofbeing a person living in my body
with my job and my viewpointsand my experience.

Corina Espejo (45:36):
Yeah, that's great. All right. trajectory
hermeneutic

Travis Albritton (45:39):
trajectory hermeneutic the fun one,

Corina Espejo (45:42):
the fun one, the

Travis Albritton (45:43):
one where if we get it wrong, it has
disastrous results, but when weget it right, it is. Beautiful,

Corina Espejo (45:47):
beautiful thing.
No pressure, here we go.
Galatians three, I'm looking atthis with trajectory hermeneutic
this is this is definitely themost difficult for me if you
belong to Christ than you areokay, so if I'm looking at this,
contextually even just justtimeline let's just take
timeline simplest. For me.
Abraham's seed would be thefirst year I don't see too much

(46:09):
talking about okay are tellingme or pulling out like any
Genesis concepts creation, butit does kind of start with
Abraham seat, okay, Abraham,then we move forward to Christ
Jesus, and then to now for allof us now who are baptized in
Christ, I guess I'd be drawn tothere is neither Jew nor Gentile
near neither slave nor free. Ithink when I think about

(46:33):
trajectory hermeneutic My mindis going to God's promise to
Abraham and how it was hiscovenant with Abraham was
everybody, it always ended witheverybody, through your family,
it's going to impact the world,right? And here, we are
beginning to look at that andsee that. So I would, if I'm
picking up the trajectoryhermeneutic Can you can you hear

(46:54):
how effortful This is for me,okay. I would think, how do I
bring in all of these people? Ithink I'd be careful not to
exclude anybody, but I'd sayokay, how do I, since the
trajectory is everybody? How doI make sure I am ensuring that
everybody is in Christ Jesus,that we have this fullness of

(47:15):
the world, to help them becomechildren of God through faith to
help them get to that point ofclothing themselves in Christ? I
think I'd also be careful not tocreate any barriers, like the
Scripture, if I'm thinking abouttrajectory, because that's the
design I'm looking at frombeginning to end. The design was
God didn't want anybody toperish. Am I? How am I this is

(47:36):
like, super hard for me. So Idon't even know if this is
right. You are certainly insidethe ballpark.

Travis Albritton (47:43):
Okay. All right. So again, this is when we
talked about like those redflags, you got to be super
careful. Yeah, we're trying tobe super precise, even our own
words. Because again, there issome inference. Yeah, there's
some reading between the linesto see where could God be taking
us. And you're relying on theHoly Spirit to give you that
wisdom through prayer andfasting. Alright, so this is not
a light thing that we're doing.
And it should not be donelightly. Another thing that you

(48:05):
could read from introductoryhermeneutic standpoint, is that
as we move forward as God'speople, the barriers from
certain people groups to beingable to do certain things will
be torn down. Yeah, that before,if you're free, you have rights
and privileges that a slavewould not. But as we move

(48:28):
forward, those will be brokendown. And now they will be seen
as equals, right? That there'snothing a slave can do that a
master Kant's or a free personcan't and vice versa. There's
nothing a free person could dothat a slave cannot do. Yeah.
And that makes sense to us.
Right? Especially now that weknow Yeah, slavery is bad. We

(48:49):
shouldn't have like, that's notwhat God wants. Same thing with
Jews and Gentiles. Right? Mostof us listening to this podcast,
if not all of us are Gentiles.
Yeah. Right. And so the ideathat this idea is very welcome
that Yeah, like, it's not likeJews get to do X. And Gentiles
don't get to do all thosethings. Yeah. Now here is where
it could become relevance. Forour question, that word could is

(49:14):
very important. You could readthis from a trajectory mindset
and say, Okay, well, then, if wesee that there is no more man or
woman, male or female, in thisfuture version of the kingdom of
God, they were trying to live inthe present, then what that
could mean is that therestrictions that we place

(49:37):
around what men and women canand cannot do in the future, may
not be there in the way thatthey were in the first century
church. Now, we have to becareful about that. Because if
we're good students of theBible, and we suppose that
Galatians was written very earlyon in Paul's ministry, then it's
it's not Like he's doing awaywith other things that he has

(50:01):
written and saying, This is mynew updated idea. Right? So we
still have to contend with therest of the New Testament and be
responsible students of theBible. This also does not mean
that there is no longer adifference between men and
women, that we're all just kindof a sexual beings with no
differences, no distinctions.

(50:23):
That is where a lot of theworldly influences going, Yeah,
right, a lot of this postmodern,modern feminist idea, gender
spectrum, all of those aretheories that have taken place
in university that are nowbringing brought into especially
Western society, right, thatgender is lived on a spectrum
and all those kinds of things.
And so this scripture is notsaying that like, man, woman

(50:44):
doesn't matter, you be whoeveryou want to be. Because at the
end of the day, it's not even athing. So that is certainly a
conclusion. You can't pull fromthis, or we should not pull from
this. And I think the otherthing to say is, even if it's,
we can take this scripture andfrom a trajectory hermeneutic
say, perhaps this is what God isleading us towards. It would be

(51:06):
irresponsible to pin thattheology on this one scripture.
Yeah. And to say, See, there'sno longer a difference between
man and woman. So all systemsgo. Every Office of ministry can
be held by men or women, there'sno role in ministry that men can
do that women can't do anymore,because we are now living in
this future kingdom of God. Thatis a conclusion. A lot of people

(51:29):
have come to with regard to thisquestion. Yeah, that is not
something that you can pinexclusively on Galatians. Three,
you have to do a lot more work alot more. A lot more work to get
there. Yeah. So that is how youwould read Galatians, three,
from a trajectory hermeneuticmindset.

Corina Espejo (51:49):
Got it. I'm ready for takeaways. This is great.
This is really fun. This ischallenging for me,

Travis Albritton (51:55):
when I think the thing that's so freeing
about understanding this, andhopefully, because again, this
there's a lot of mental andemotional gymnastics that go
into deconstructing the way youread and interpret the Bible.
Yeah. But I hope that the takeone of the takeaways, and one of
the things that you're feelinglistening to this episode, is
once you have clarity around theway you naturally interpret the

(52:19):
Bible, yeah, that also clues youinto areas you need to be aware
of blind spots, right? That ifyou typically read the Bible
thinking, what is the answer forwhat the early church did? And
how do we do that? There aresome strengths to that. And
there's some weaknesses to that.
And so if you understand thatthere are weaknesses, and you
recognize those weakenedweaknesses, you can kind of put

(52:39):
them at bay a little bit andsay, Okay, I am going to pursue
this view of Christianity, andlook for this pattern in the New
Testament. But I'm not going todo it from a judgmental stance,
I'm going to do it full ofgrace, and full of patience and
mercy. As we all try and figureout what that pattern could be
right and so, so hopefully, byjust getting clarity around

(53:01):
these different methods forinterpreting scripture, can help
you be more aware of thestrengths and weaknesses of the
way that you typically like tointerpret scripture. And we all
typically have a preferredmethod that we are drawn to, but
then also seeing that each ofthese are a totally valid way of
trying to interpret the Bible,right, that they each come with

(53:21):
different questions, which leadyou to potentially different
answers, but really, it's notdifferent answers, like
someone's gonna get a andanother person is gonna get b,
but it's like, a plus a minus,like, you're looking at this
from a different angle thansomebody else. Yeah. Right. And
that's going to give youdifferent impressions and
different takeaways.

Corina Espejo (53:39):
And I think to maybe, this is where my mind
went, if I am building a car todrive, I'm not going to use the
same tools on the engine that Iwould on the tire and some may
overlap, some may not. But wehave to do it skillfully.
Because it's a car like it's, wehave to be skilled in how we
take care of it. And so thatwhen we drive it, it runs well.

(54:00):
And I think some of these toolsmight be applicable depending on
what part of the car and butultimately, when you go to drive
it, there's confidence becauseyou knew you, you you worked on
it with the right tools in theright places in the right ways.
And I know I referenced thisalready, but Steve canards book
getting the most from the Bible.
I like this. I like thisconcept. And I'm sure he's not
the first person to state this,but and he probably won't be the

(54:21):
last. For those who feel likethey're getting stretched
because they want just thesimple. What does the Bible say?
Just do it just redo. And there,maybe there's a temptation to
not go through this process ofproper interpretation. The title
of the section that Steve canardputs in this section is why

(54:42):
bother, right? Why bother withhermeneutics? Why bother with
interpretation? Why bother?
Right? And he references SecondTimothy 215 and it says, do your
best to present yourself to Godas one approved a workman who
does not need to be ashamed andwho correctly handles the word
of Truth. And the firstconclusion he draws is that

(55:04):
there is a correct and anincorrect way to handle the word
of truth. In our trailer, thatwas one of the biggest
sentiments of the individuals wewere trying to draw feedback
from. When approaching thequestion, what does the Bible
say about women in the church?
Right? Their biggest concernwas, how do I correctly handle
the word of truth, I don't wantto be unskilled. And so if
you're on this podcast, we hopeyou feel a little bit more

(55:25):
skilled and competent to goabout this question. I also hope
those of you who that was not onyour radar that it's a good
encouragement to want tocorrectly handle the word of
truth and that that's going torequire a little bit more elbow
grease, a little bit more skilland knowledge. And I hope you're
encouraged by me doing that onthis episode that, you know,

(55:47):
we're all in it together.
A really fun takeaway is to bemindful and self aware of what I
am drawn to in terms of thistools. And I don't have to dive
so much into the why, althoughthat's kind of fun for me to
know. Okay, well, why am I drawnto blueprint? hermeneutic? Or
why am I drawn to trajectory? Orwhy does theological hermeneutic

(56:09):
drive me nuts, right, like, it'sgreat to see that because as I
go to use these tools, it'llhelp me be more skilled in the
strengths and the weaknesses,and maybe even where I tend to
weather, my inclinations. So Ican be just a better steward. I
think about martial artists, Iwas thinking about this on the
drive to record this podcastwith the drivers. We have the

(56:30):
short, double edged sword,right. And it had a very
specific purpose that drives howit's created. The Roman soldier
was using that short, doubleedged sword in combat, and it
had one function one purpose,when basic move in and out, get
to the heart. That's it. CloseCombat was the context. And

(56:51):
there's going to be time forthat. I mean, you're trying to
win a war and it's life ordeath, you're going to want your
short, double edged sword,right? You're going to want that
short sword. But then I thinkabout back in the day, right,
and we think about Japan, andyou have these beautiful,
elegant, long, but single sidedswords. And they tend to lend
very well towards beauty andexhibitionist. And you think

(57:13):
about that culture and what thatwas meant to communicate about
life, life and death, not justbeing life and death. But even
that swords can play a biggerpart than just kill or be
killed, but to protect, and toeven show life lessons about
life and discipline, and how tobe artful and, and so I think
about all these things. And Ithink my takeaway is embrace all

(57:36):
of these things for what theyare, and not what I'm forcing
them to be. Just, it's a cautionto the wise, be mindful of who
you are, and which of these youmight be drawn to. And which of
these might, might turn you off.
Another takeaway I had is, as wetalk about women in the church,
just looking at Galatians,three, and as I went through
this exercise, I think, for me,what Galatians 326 to 29, what

(57:56):
it's telling me and for me, it'smore of like, as me Kareena, a
woman in the church, what I'mtaking away is there's a place
for me that I do have a place asa woman, and you know, even
outside of being a woman, as youknow, a brown woman, as a young
woman, as no matter what part ofmy identity, the big picture is
that I do have a place as achild of God. And I can have a

(58:21):
sort of security because I wasbaptized in faith through faith
in Christ Jesus, that I have himas my main identity when I'm
clothing Christ. That's who I'mpursuing. I want people to see
that. And that's what people cansee. I belong, right. This is if
you belong to Christ I belong.

(58:42):
So it's like, I don't know ifthat's stretching. But that's my
takeaway.

Travis Albritton (58:45):
Yeah. The takeaways that I had from this
episode, were just acknowledgingthat there's more than one
approach to interpretingscripture. And that it's
important to recognize each ofthem for what they are and what
they bring to the table. Becausewhen you can learn how to use
each one skillfully, as you wereso eloquently putting that that
deepens our understanding of theBible, and helps us get closer

(59:06):
to actionable takeaways.
doxology things that we can doin our Christian life, that are
also moldable to our situation.
So one of the things I loveabout the Bible is because it
has those culturalunderpinnings, it means that we
can now take the lessons and thewisdom and God's instructions in
the Bible and apply them in anyculture in any place in time.

(59:28):
And it still fits. Yeah, what wedo the practices of the church
and the Christians will lookdifferent. And we're gonna get
into some of that towards theend of this podcast when we talk
about church practice, from thethings that we learn from the
Bible, but that's actuallyreally exciting. Because that
means that even if tomorrow,something really crazy happens,

(59:49):
like there's a global pandemic,that'll probably never happen.
But if it did, and, you know,hypothetically, we're all just
doing church online streamingfrom our homes, something that
will probably never come true.

Corina Espejo (01:00:00):
It's too soon, Travis.

Travis Albritton (01:00:03):
Right that I can still go and make disciples
of all nations, I can still lovemy neighbor as myself. I can
still practice one anotherrelationships with the brothers
and sisters in my small group.
Yeah, the way I do, it may bedifferent. It might be on
FaceTime or on a zoom call,instead of going to their house
or going to church on a Sunday.

(01:00:24):
But I still get to put thosethings into practice. Because I
understand that like, thisChristianity that I'm living is
very pliable, and veryresilient. And no matter what
happens, yeah, the Bible has theanswers to give us the wisdom to
know what to do in thosesituations. So that's the beauty
of understanding all thesedifferent hermeneutics.

Corina Espejo (01:00:44):
Yeah, I one more takeaway. I know, they're just
keep on coming. And I love whatyou said, I wonder too, in
thinking in that way, it alsocreates grace and mercy and
patience with people who mightbe different from me, because
now, after we're going throughthese things, I can see Oh,
that's why you always reach forwhatever trajectory hermeneutic

(01:01:05):
Oh, that's why. And to be ableto approach Scripture with
somebody who might be differentfor me and find a bit of a
common ground to findunderstanding and compassion
behind that. Okay, now Iunderstand, and to help us all
maneuver together. And yeah,that that just was the thought
that came

Travis Albritton (01:01:24):
right, instead of talking past each other, not
understanding why we can'tfigure out why the other person
is so unspiritual exactly theway they read the Bible. Right?
just recognizing, oh, you'rejust approaching it with some
different questions. Yeah, thanI am. But let's, let's actually
do this collaboratively in adialogue and in a conversation
and come to some greaterunderstanding together. Yeah.
Which brings me to the secondtakeaway I had, which was, the

(01:01:46):
questions we bring to our Biblestudy will impact the answers
that we find are the flavor ofthe answers that we find. And so
just recognize if you'reapproaching the question of what
is the role of women in churchon Sundays, from blueprint
hermeneutic, you're looking tofind a pattern in Acts and the
epistles? Yeah, that hasstrengths and weaknesses, right?

(01:02:06):
We should not do thatexclusively, because that
rejects even the ministry ofJesus, which is that that should
always be a red flag, right? Ifwe're saying Jesus's ministry is
not relevant to answer yourquestion about how we follow him
as a group, that that should bea little bit of a flag, at the
very least, yeah. And so justunderstand that the way you
approach reading the Bible, andthe questions you ask, will

(01:02:27):
impact the kind of answers andtakeaways that you have. And so
if you're interacting withsomebody, and they had different
takeaways from their Biblestudy, it's possible that you
were just asking differentquestions, or asking them in
different ways. And so we'regonna do our best to kind of
cover all the angles for thisquestion on this podcast,
because I understand that that'sprobably what's actually

(01:02:47):
happening. And then the lasttakeaway, and this is, again,
just a word of caution, just bemindful of the weaknesses of
your preferred hermeneutic. Thatif you recognize, okay, I really
like to live in theologicalland. Let me make sure I'm
actually practicing discipleshipto Right, right. So I'm not just
saying, Man, God is awesome.
He's so full of grace, right?
You know, he's forgiven me, asinner. This is phenomenal. And

(01:03:09):
then not do anything with that,right? Or if you are more drawn
to trajectory, and you'rethinking, Man, I just want to,
you know, as much as possible,model the life that I will get
to live in heaven while I'm onearth and share that with
others. As a light. Just bereally careful that in that
pursuit of that knowledge andunderstanding that you don't
kind of get too far over yourskis and draw conclusions that

(01:03:31):
aren't there. Yeah. And artactually meant to be drawn,
right. So just be aware of thoseweaknesses. So when you do come
to conclusions, and decide,okay, this is how I'm going to
put these scriptures intopractice from this framework.
Just be mindful of thoseweaknesses. So you can kind of
hedge your bets a little bit andmake sure that you're not going

(01:03:52):
too far, outside of Christianorthodoxy with your conclusions.
It's great.

Corina Espejo (01:03:57):
I'm

Travis Albritton (01:03:57):
excited.
Awesome. And the reason we spentso much time talking about
hermeneutics, is because overthe next four episodes or so
we're going to be using all ofthese tools. We're going to be
looking at blueprint,theological and trajectory
hermeneutics and and looking atpassages in the New Testament,
specifically Romans, FirstCorinthians and First Timothy,

(01:04:18):
that can help inform ourunderstanding of what the early
church practiced when it came towomen in ministry, and what we
should do as it pertains to usnow, if you want to get updates
on new episodes that come out,you want to get access to our
resource guide, which has all ofour study resources and things
you can go into your own study.

(01:04:40):
If you want the companionworksheets, where you can do
your own quiet time series orget together with your
leadership group and go throughthese questions and these topics
that's available at womenchurch, podcast comm you can
sign up, it's 100% free, and youget access to all those
resources. But next week, wehave the saint herself. Jeannie
Shah jumping in to helpkickstart the rest of our

(01:05:02):
podcast. digging into thequestion, What role do women
have in the ministry in themodern day church