October 13, 2021 • 54 mins
In this episode, author and teacher Jeanie Shaw joins the podcast to discuss the cultural norms of the Greco-Roman world and the lessons we should take from Paul's list of commended fellow workers in Romans 16.
Grab your copy of "The View From Paul's Window: Paul's Teachings on Women" by Jeanie Shaw.
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Travis Albritton (00:01):
Welcome back to the women in the church
podcast where we take a freshlook at what the Bible teaches
about women in church. For theICOC, and Corina, today we have
just a lovely guest. Joining us.
Yes, we do. Jeannie, thank youso much for joining us on the
podcast today.
Jeanie Shaw (00:17):
Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you for inviting
me. I've really enjoyed theepisode so far, I really
appreciate the the spirit inwhich they're done and the
information that's given. Soit's great to be here.
Travis Albritton (00:30):
Wonderful.
Well, if we've passed the testso far, that's great to hear.
For anyone who's listening tothis that isn't familiar with
your book, or worked with you inministry, just give us a little
bit of background of kind ofyour experience with ministry,
your academic background, andalso the work you've done on
this topic in particular.
Jeanie Shaw (00:47):
Oh, okay. Sure.
Well, I'll try to do thisbriefly, even though I'm 67
years old, so I won't go throughyear by year. But it is
interesting, I, I knew I alwaysjust wanted to, especially for
my teen years on I wanted tojust live forgot I wanted to
make a difference for him inthis world. I didn't quite know
(01:07):
how to do it. I became aChristian when I was a young
team. And you know, tried to,you know, I shared my faith with
different people, differentways. But I thought, you know,
maybe I was mistake, they shouldhave been a man because I really
wanted to, you know, be amissionary or do something
(01:30):
breaching something. I don'tknow why just, you know, I
didn't really want to be a man.
But I felt like I didn't knowhow to do that. But I met my
husband when we were in collegeat the University of Florida.
And my husband Wyndham, hewanted to go in the ministry and
(01:53):
did and that was great, becauseI had that deep desire as well.
And so right out of college, Iwent into the ministry, the ripe
old age of 20. And I justretired last month, and I'm 67.
So you can do the math. I'vebeen in the ministry quite a
while I started in campusministry, we did take a step
(02:15):
working with hope worldwide forabout eight years, which was a
tremendous experience. And thenI served for many, many years in
the Boston church is a women'sministry leader, my husband was
an elder and evangelist. Sadly,I lost him about two years ago,
he passed away after a terribleneurological disease, and I miss
(02:38):
him every day. And I feel likeI've never been really a single
woman in the ministry. And italso helps me realize that and
that can be challenging can bevery challenging. But how I got
on this subject, I probably itwas about maybe it was less than
it maybe about six or sevenyears ago, I was teaching at the
(03:04):
European Bible school. And thewomen's section was on First
Timothy two, and I was given asection on shall be saved
through childbirth. And Ithought, What in the world? Is
this talking about? You know,really, I mean, is this, they
must have messed up in thescripture they gave me and I
(03:25):
started looking at the wholething and realize, I had just
stopped those things for years,because I didn't know what they
meant. I didn't know how toexplain them. And I never really
heard them talked about. And soI just stuffed them. But I felt
like I needed answers I neededto find out and I was you know,
I knew the Bible could explainitself. And I didn't have to be
(03:48):
scared of anything. And so Ireally set out on a journey I
studied, I read Oh, yeah, Amazonloved me. I spent a lot of money
on books. AndI read so many books, so many
commentaries. I spent aboutthree years studying, I didn't
have the intention of writing abook at the time, but then,
honestly, I decided to to helpme put it together and make
(04:11):
sense because I thought if Ican't, if I can't write it down
and talk about it in a way thatmakes sense, then, you know, I
probably really haven't learnedit. And so that's how the book
The view from Paul's window,Paul's teachings on women was
born. And it was a reallychallenging experience in many
ways, but I so appreciate youcertainly on a topic like this.
(04:33):
I did not want to write in avacuum. And I got a tremendous
amount of input from so manyteachers and people who are
smarter than me on differentsubjects that really helped to
shape it. And again, it's notthe final word. It's just it's
my thoughts of what I've learnedfrom my study, I was able to
(04:53):
participate in the ICC taskforcethat put together by And gender
book. But the thing that excitedme more than even just the topic
was feeling like, I was startingto appreciate the big picture of
the Bible, the story of theBible in a way that just
thrilled me, Old Testament hadbeen kind of, you know, the way
(05:17):
I was taught that was just old.
And you could get some Biblestories out of it. But it
really, we were the NewTestament church. And so I
didn't really have a flow of howthe narrative worked. And it
just helped me so much, which iswhy I appreciate those episodes
that Jason gave that was great.
And, you know, maybe Idiscovered a couple things in
(05:40):
the pandemic, one that I hadalways wanted to get some
further training. And my husbandand I joked about this, some
because he was in graduateschool when we were early
married. And I wanted to takesome classes. But it was very
clear that that was not forwomen. He apologized for that a
lot later, but it was sosupportive when I told him, I
(06:01):
really wanted to go back toschool. And so about two years
ago, now I graduated with myMaster's in spiritual formation,
loved Oh, I loved it. And so Ithought, I really want to do
some adjunct teaching, I want tobe involved in you know, in
formation of students lives andthinking, and just to keep
(06:22):
learning. So I began, this year,I began my doctorate program in
the same fields, and I'm lovingit, absolutely loving it. So
it's been, it's been a greatjourney. And I figured, hey,
I'll be Lord willing, 70 yearsold when I graduate. But hey,
you know, I'm still here. God'snot done with me yet. So we'll
(06:43):
see what happens.
Travis Albritton (06:46):
Amen to that we're very grateful that you're
here. And that certainly God isnot done with you yet, for sure.
So Jeannie, as we were kind ofjoking about before we started
recording, we saved all thegreat all the easy Scriptures
for you.
Jeanie Shaw (06:59):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
Travis Albritton (07:03):
So it's everyone that's listening to
this point, thanks for beingpatient with us. And waiting
until now. Because now thatwe've kind of laid that
foundation of the whole Bible asa narrative arc, understanding
the perspectives we can bring tointerpreting it. Now we have the
tools in the backgroundknowledge that we need to push
forward. So Jeanie, why don'tyou just kind of kick us off
(07:26):
with laying the land a littlebit, before we get into the
epistles, we get into the earlychurch writings, especially
Paul, because most of the stuffwe're going to be reading for
the rest of this podcast is fromPaul, and just kind of give us a
lay of the land. So when westart going through these
passages and going through thesedifferent verses, and
scriptures, just to kind ofunderstand where we should be
(07:47):
coming from, and some thingsthat we should be aware of that
we might bring into it that weprobably need to leave on the
sideline.
Jeanie Shaw (07:53):
Oh, great. Thank you for that. I think that's a
great and important question.
And you, I know that when wetalk about this, it is important
to really look at the cultureand the authors that we're
writing. Because these are,these are letters, they're
letters written, they'reinspired by God, but they're
letters written for us. They'renot letters written to us, and
(08:14):
our own culture. And sometimesit's hard to, to figure all that
out. And I just want to say,just kind of in the beginning,
that I realized that culture ismerely a component of
interpretation. But it's acomponent that we can often
miss. And I think it can bescary to talk about culture,
because if we can feel like Oh,if this is cultural than what
(08:38):
you know, is everything culturalin the Bible? What can we hold
to? And those are importantquestions. But, you know, just
for some background, you know,culture is really defined as the
way our way of life of groups ofpeople, the things they do an
integrated pattern of humanknowledge, belief and behavior,
their outlook, attitudes,values, morals, goals, and
(09:01):
customs, you know, shared by asociety. But the thing is, these
ways of life, they might begodly, or they might be godless.
And we certainly see throughoutthe pages of the Bible a lot
more godlessness, certainly thatis being just repeated again and
again. But thank God, He givesus a way out, I really
(09:26):
appreciate that. But you Ibelieve, culture has got to be
evaluated then and theparameters of God's view of his
holiness of His justice of Hislove and unity, and his kingdom
plan his kingdom. Well, we canhear a lot today. And morality
is often defined culturally. Butwe can know God's holiness is
(09:54):
constant. You know, it's notlike oh, this culture can be
more Because it's accepted, no,his holiness is constant. This
God's holiness defines whether acultural mores godly or as
worldly, you know, thenatrocities like slavery. They
were in our cultural, but theydefied God's justice. legalism
(10:15):
was a cultural practice and canstill be there keeps the letter
of God's laws, but misses God'slove. And, you know, we're not
gonna we're not going to allagree, is we strive to
understand and follow some ofthe more difficult things and
God's word. And that's why Ibelieve the desire for unity is
(10:37):
got to be our desire, and moreimportant than getting our way
even because God desires unitymakes that very clear. But I did
appreciate so much the time youtook on the background of the
Old Testament and in Genesis andeven some of the patriarchal
lenses because we do have lensesthrough which we view scripture,
(10:58):
right? You spent good timetalking about new Jesus, living
and teaching, and the apostlesteaching and that ancient Near
Eastern culture and it's notalways easy to span meaning
across cultures and centuries.
And just to give you a littleexample, I asked my
(11:21):
granddaughter if she she's 18 Iasked her if she could just
connect compile letter for meand I wanted to abusing her
cultures vernacular. And I justwant to read this and think how
we might if this landed in thelaps of the ancient Near East
(11:42):
culture, how might they try toexegete this so bear with me
here? So my peeps john, Susan,Peter and Julie Yo, the prof was
being such a force today like Nowonder Shane cuffed yet she's
legit such a Karen went to themall so I can flex on the class
how professional I looked forthe presentation. Then went to
(12:05):
present it in class the nextday, drowning in my new drip
looking snatched, masked andvast because that's the law
here. The prof is acting sosauce, she said I lose 20 points
for submitting the dreadedthesis a minute late. Does she
not have an apple watch? Thetime was legit. I thought she
was capping but turns out shewas spitting facts from her time
(12:26):
max. I Loki thought the text wasfire after dough. The
presentation was sick though soidk why she was being a sketch.
bad vibes all around no cap. Shelegit didn't look up wants from
her desk while I presented thengave me a 60 like pro I was mad,
salty. idk while she wasthrowing some shade, so then I
called her out after class foryour sake, so this won't happen
(12:48):
again. Turns out she didn'tthink my dope fit was
appropriate attire. smh becauseit was too casual. I literally
looked so dope though. Like momjeans and a crew neck give boss
vibes only tbh. Like if younever saw the fit. I think you'd
put me with Harry Styles overyou. I pointed out the rubric
never said attire mattered andthen she finessed my grade after
(13:10):
savage moves only for this Queenperiod T grades all Gucci now
next class is lit so we'd bevibing next teachers the goat. I
think that's all the tea butI'll keep the squad posted if
she rages anymore. Thisshouldn't happen again. You are
welcome. Peace out, fam. So
Travis Albritton (13:27):
that makes perfect sense.
Jeanie Shaw (13:30):
You follow that?
Completely right?
Corina Espejo (13:31):
Oh Hunter. Most of it most of it.
Jeanie Shaw (13:35):
I heard some of it.
But I just tried to think youknow, in another culture in
another language to try togather What's going on? You
know, we think oh, peeps, youknow, john says Peter, Julie,
what kind of names are those?
The prof you know, somebody iscuffed? They must be in prison.
(13:59):
Her name is Karen. Oh, massbakst. And it's law. So we
better obey the law. Yeah,there's an apple involved. You
know, that must be there must besomething with the I don't know.
I mean, you we could go on, butI think we can see it's not
easy. It's not easy. And thisgeneration for me, you know,
(14:22):
baby boomer with a Gen Z to knowwhat in the world are you
talking about? And yet, that'sthe nature of letters. Now,
granted, they were inspired byGod, the writers were inspired.
But there were letters writtento specific problems and
specific cultures. And I saidthat just to kind of get us
(14:43):
thinking, it's not so easy,right?
And, you know, the thing we canknow is that we can know because
the Bible is inspired everythingwe need to have a relationship
with God, from a simple readingof the Bible. And yet in
interpretation can become shortsighted or get lost in
translation. When we don'tconsider word meanings, or
(15:06):
biblical historical cultures,genres, such as historical
narratives, or poetry, the useof metaphors and eye pearlies
and word meanings that are sorich, and yet often so different
from our preconceivedunderstandings. And I think I've
mentioned this, but I know I'vestudied the Old Testament more
(15:26):
lately than I ever have. And itis thrilled me because I
realized, Oh, this is thecontinuation of the same story.
It really isn't. It's opened myeyes in so many ways. You I
think we have to just realizethe views that we have from
others windows are important itaffects they affect the way we
read the Bible. And as we'regoing to view, the world of the
(15:49):
some of the New Testamentwriters, particularly Paul,
realize that they paint words,pictures with their words, and
they can't really be alwaysreduced to objective qualifying
definitions, again, as mentionedin the difference in western and
eastern thought, but they'remore channels of thought more
than patterns of one dimensionalmeanings. You know, they're
(16:12):
just, I think, what wasmentioned the patriarchal lens.
And I just want to say a couplethings about that, because it
does take up so much ink in theScriptures, that I think it's
very easy to think that it isGod's ordained plan. But is it?
Is it simply a culture of theday to which the kingdom culture
(16:35):
is introduced? You know,Aristotle had household codes.
And you know, women that theywere that women should obey, men
are in charge. Household codes,and Greco Roman culture imitate
this, and they're so differentfrom the scriptures that show a
different way of treating eachother. I don't believe that God
(16:57):
is trying to replicate thestructure, but is teaching us
how to live in the confines ofthen the Roman world in a Christ
like way. And we know that inthe very beginning, he countered
that culture when he said, a manshall leave his father and
mother and cleave to his wife.
You know, Abraham left his homeand family, which was a counter
to patriarchal practice, andthen was asked to sacrifice his
(17:23):
son again, that's not in keepingwith patriarchy. And certainly
it was used for a lot of good isthat help populate the earth.
polygamy was allowed. I don'tbelieve it was God's plan, but
it was allowed leveretmarriages, laws protected the
widows and orphans and themarginalized. It did a lot of
good and order and protection,but it also produced polygamy,
(17:46):
primogeniture, privileges of thefirstborn violence, slavery, use
and devaluation of women,competition for territory and
power, earthly kingdoms andentitlement. And, you know,
remember, worldly kingdomsweren't God's idea. Kings
weren't God's plan and forSamuel eight, but he allowed
them because he had desired hiswill to be done on earth is in
(18:11):
heaven. He wanted to HeavenlyKingdom culture. And I think as
we look into the epistles, it'sjust important to realize that
like Jesus, Paul taught in theway that people understood in
their day seeking to bring thekingdom of God thinking into
their worldly cultures from theinside out, not the outside and
(18:31):
through cultural revolutions arewars. And then of course, we
have our own cultural lens inthe churches of Christ and ICSC
and you mentioned that some lastweek and the thing I realized
and when I began to study isthat I did a lot of selective
literalism you know, I read somethings the Bible and said Oh,
(18:56):
yeah, that's just what it says.
But then in the same chapter,other things it's Oh no, we
don't do that. You know, and sohow do we how do we deal with
that we're okay with goldjewelry and braids. We don't
lift holy hands in prayer. Andwhat does that even about? You
know, women aren't allowed toteach where there are men yet
First Corinthians 14 instructsthem on how to do it and what to
(19:18):
do. What in the world the savedthrough childbearing mean what
about the angels? disease,deception means you can't speak
things didn't add up for me andI realized there was a bigger
picture and I had to really cometo understand how I practice
selective literalism. You know,it's interesting, I've been
studying a lot the restorationmovement and our founding
(19:42):
fathers there and, and justseeking more unity. And what's
interesting is, certainly thatdidn't happen too well. But even
in the late 1800s, in therestoration movement, there were
women missionaries, there werewomen, preachers. And that
surprised me when I realizedthat. And the last thing I want
(20:04):
to say about this is just we canhave blinders to our lenses
obstacles to seeing beyond ourown presuppositions. And I
honestly think and I can relateto this, one of them is fear,
fear of asking questions, a fearof seeing problems, because for
me that complicated things, Ididn't just have my neat little
(20:27):
answers. But I realized theBible can withstand my
questions. I'm grateful forthat. And this study is only
brought me to a greater offerthe scriptures. But I honestly I
did have a fear that if Istarted questioning some things
in the Bibles, then I'mquestioning God, and these, it's
the Holy Scriptures, and God isholy, and I didn't want to be
(20:50):
reckless with that. And I don'twant to be reckless with that,
as I mentioned, I've been struckby lightning for real once, I
didn't want to see that happenagain, I did survive, I'm
grateful. You know, I think wecan have a fear of being wrong.
And you know, I learned the bestI can. But I also know that many
fully committed hearts for Godand greater mind surround me.
(21:12):
And I need conversations, youknow, I'm confident on some
things, on some things, I'm surewithout intending to be that I'm
wrong. Because that's the natureyou know, I can't be right all
the time. And on some I may wellbe right. And on some, it's just
impossible to know. And, youknow, I think we've got to
become aware of the lenses thatwe use. And it's easy to let
(21:38):
just even some things in ourlife, fog up our lenses. Because
we all have unique windows, wecan even read scripture through
our own pain, sometimes throughour family background, when
we've had a broken family, or Nodad, or there was abuse, or he
was absent or authoritarian, wecan read that through our own
(22:03):
pain, again, abuse, neglect,trauma, Death of loved ones
through our ethnicity, gender,socio economic factors, you
know, I would read itdifferently if I was brought up
in a warzone. Or if I didn'tknow where my next meal was
going to come from our culture.
It's been mentioned ourresources and education, our
(22:23):
ability to read well tocomprehend special needs. And I
know even though I like to thinkof myself as educated, I've
realized this past couple ofyears, some eye opening, heart
jarring things that I learnedfrom educating myself about even
(22:44):
things like systemic racialinequality in our country, the
land of the free things I wastaught, and things that were
suppressed that had a hugeimpact on my understanding your
political backgrounds, oursocial systems, our religious
traditions, we read our Biblethrough all of these. And you
(23:05):
know, just the last thing onthis, I can give you another
example of this recently, I havea good friend, and she'd written
a devotional, as we werepreparing for a women's event on
Esther from chapter one, andshe'd highlighted Queen Vashti.
And from my window, because Iwas raised in a loving Christian
(23:28):
home with a strong father and amom, who was who was very kind,
she didn't say a lot. Her rolein the home was to raise the
children to cook to clean andtasks that were deemed
appropriate for women. You know,I learned that I was never to
talk back in any way, or speakup concerning thoughts or
(23:51):
preferences as this wasdisrespectful to authority.
And, you know, you'll justobeyed. Now, obedience is a good
thing. There's nothing wrongwith being obedient. But back to
the devotional. You know, I'dbeen taught growing up and
therefore assumed, given theview from my window that Vash
(24:12):
date was wrong. In her responseto her husband, King's Xerxes,
after all the text says, herdisobedience to the king's
command would embarrass him andcause other women to disrespect
him. Yet, my friend had grown upin an abusive, sexually abusive
(24:32):
background, and for her that shewas a hero, because she was
willing to stand up and not beprobably paraded and naked, or
just for her beauty to a groupof a drunken party. And so how
we viewed that was verydifferent from our background,
and then just helped me tounderstand a little more how
(24:55):
that how that takes place. Soanyhow, that's a lot Right
there,
Travis Albritton (25:00):
yes, but a wonderful intro. And just so
grateful for all those littlenuggets, you drops, there's
little threads we're gonna beable to pull over the next
several weeks. But we wanted tokind of kick things off with a
passage that, you know, asurprising number of disciples
just don't even know about,which is Romans chapter 16. I
(25:21):
think it's because we get boggeddown in like chapter nine and
10. We're trying to like figureout like, what is Paul saying,
it seems like he switchesaudiences right in the middle of
his letter. And so so we wantedto walk through Romans 16. But
first, just kind of give us asense of what's going on in the
church of Rome at this time,give us some background into
this letter. And any kind ofcultural context that we need to
(25:42):
be aware of, you know, before weactually read through this
passage, and start breaking itinto pieces and pulling it
apart.
Jeanie Shaw (25:48):
Oh, yeah. I love this passage of Scripture. I
love Romans. You know, peoplesaid, if you get Romans, you get
the whole Bible. And there's somuch truth in that. But Chris,
Romans was written late inPaul's career in the background,
it's a church of Jews and nonJews. The church had been around
for a while, but the EmperorClaudius and expelled the Jews
(26:09):
from Rome, and but five yearslater, and vited them back. And
upon their return, the JewishChristians then found a church
that have become very nonJewish. And that created as you
see, as you read through thebook of Romans a lot of vision.
And so one of Paul's goals wasto see that divided church
(26:31):
united, some commentators feellike that was kind of a staging
ground before he wanted to go toSpain, and was really
addressing, particularly inRomans 16, those who are house
church leaders are hosted thehouse churches in their homes.
But the letter itself, it talksabout righteousness, the new
(26:53):
humanity that God has created,because these are the things
that can unite the church again,the inside out. Paul begins in
Genesis telling the story of howbroken the world is, and the
Jews are listened to thank you.
Yeah, those Gentiles, theyreally are messed up. I mean,
goodness from the beginning, andPaul and says, excuse me, you
(27:15):
are just as guilty, and maybeeven more so because you've had
the law. And basically is the inGordon Ferguson's phrase that I
love, you basically tells us thebest of us is a mess. And two of
his phrases stand out for me andRomans, that one, the best of us
is a mess. And yet God justifiesus just as if I had never sent
(27:39):
you I believe a theme is thatall people are invited to this
multi ethnic family based onfaith, Jews and Gentiles this
new of humanity. Of course, hethen he goes into if this was
God's plan, then why was thereneed for the Torah, and Paul
helps us see that it was, itfocuses the problem of the human
(28:00):
condition on Israel, so that wecan better understand it, and
Jesus took care of it. But Jesustransforms hearts, and that
unity, especially in chapters,12, and 13, are gonna is going
to come from our commitment, tolove, to serve, to give to each
other and to forgive each otherand to respect each other's
(28:21):
differences. Because this is thebackground, there were a lot of
differences, a lot ofdisrespect, a lot of things that
need forgiveness. And then Ibelieve when he gets to chapter
16, he's painting a beautifulpicture of unity were a third of
the people he mentions arealmost a third are women.
They're from differentbackgrounds. Some are Jews of
(28:43):
higher standing. Some are nonJews, some of them have names
that would denote that they werefreed people are from background
of slavery. And I love that Paulhighlights these probably house
church leaders just to showeveryone is needed. And we can
(29:05):
be united and this is what thechurch is supposed to be a group
of people from all kinds ofbackgrounds, men and women
choose Gentile. All of the rich,poor free slave that we are
united in one and it's abeautiful letter depicting all
that
Corina Espejo (29:27):
suit. Let's jump in. Let's read this passage. And
yeah, let's let's get into it alittle bit more. Roman 16. And
I'll just be reading verses oneto 16. And I'm reading from ESV
today. So Romans 16 verse onesays, I commend to you our
sister Phoebe, a servant of thechurch at century that you may
(29:49):
welcome her in the Lord in a wayworthy of the saints and help
her in whatever she may needfrom you for she has been a
patron of many and of myself aswell. Great Priscilla and
Aquila, my fellow workers inChrist Jesus who risked their
necks for my life, to whom notonly I give thanks but all the
churches of the Gentiles givethanks as well. Greet also the
church in their house, greet mybeloved at panatuss, who was the
(30:12):
first convert to Christ in Asia?
Great Mary, who has worked hardfor you, great Andronicus and
Jr, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners. They are well known
to the apostles and they were inChrist before me, great amply,
Gaddis, my beloved in the Lord,great Urbanus, our fellow worker
in Christ and my belovedstoechas great appellees, who is
(30:33):
approved in Christ, greet thosewho belong to the family of
Aristo. beuliss, great mykinsmen. herodion. Greet those
in the Lord who belong to thefamily of Narcissus. Greet those
workers in the Lord. Try faniaand try fossa greet the beloved
persis who has worked hard andLord great Rufus chosen in the
(30:54):
Lord. Also his mother, who hasbeen a mother to me as well.
Great a sin kritis flygon.
Hermes Petrova us are a mess,and the brothers who are with
them, great, Philo Lucas, Julianeris, and his sister, and
Olympus and all the saints whoare with them, greet one another
(31:16):
with a holy kiss all thechurches of Christ greet you.
Travis Albritton (31:19):
Well done, Corina, got your name, your
Greek name, a quota. And for theweek,
Corina Espejo (31:25):
I don't think I've ever had to say those out
loud. You know, you kind of readit in your head, and I'm like,
Oh, I apologize to anybody who'sGreek, or whatever, wherever
these names come from, forgiveme. So first question I have
just within this passage, Imean, not necessarily throughout
all of Romans 16. But maybe justthis passage, when you hear some
of these statements. Are thereany verbiage or concepts that
(31:48):
kind of sit within the contextof the Scripture, something
that's more temporary? Or can ittranscend the context of Romans
that it was written in? Can Iread it now and still get a feel
for what is being said?
Jeanie Shaw (32:02):
I would think it would be very transcending
because it's just a commendationof you know, he's really not
giving any directives here hePaul is only commending these
men and women who have been hispartners, some in prison with
him, and who worked hard withhim together for the gospel. And
(32:23):
that would be a transcendingprinciple two is that they work
together very hard with him. Ithink that's an operative word,
they worked with him. That'swhat he emphasized, they didn't
talk about they were under me,you know, his Apostle Paul, but
they work together for thecommon cause of Christ, and to
(32:44):
really have him be known. Andagain, many scholars believe
these were probably house churchleaders that he was writing to.
And this is one of the ways thatit's countercultural, from what
we have bought many times whenin that patriarchal world to
(33:06):
show that Paul thinksdifferently. You know, he
understands his culture, but hethinks differently, course.
Phoebe, the word for servant is,you know, it's our word for
Deacon or deaconess or minister.
And I wonder, because manypeople have tried to say it
wasn't really an officialposition, because but I wonder
(33:27):
sometimes if we would have thisdiscussion, if it was a male
name in their eye, most scholarsare don't dispute the fact that
this was some kind of recognizedposition in the church, she was
probably the patron of thathouse church, which often met
that they would organize it andrun it. And she delivered the
(33:51):
letter from Paul to the churchin Rome, which was honestly
quite honorable. And most of thetime, I've learned that people
who delivered the letters werealso the ones who read them. She
was probably quite educated andeven expounded on them. And that
(34:11):
Paul, not only in trusted herwith that, but asked that she be
received in a way worthy of thesaints, and you know that she
would be assisted in any way sheneeds. And even a little bit of
another countercultural thing.
(34:33):
And the next verse, Priscilla,and Aquila, I used to say a
quilt because it rhymes. I'm notsure what it is Priscilla, and
Priscilla and Aquila. But again,Paul calls them fellow workers.
And of course, you know, we knowthat they shared the gospel and
taught together, but it was justa common form of writing that
(34:57):
the man's name went first. Idon't want to make too much of
it. But I think it's in thisliterary context here. He puts
Priscilla first, which I don'tknow, you know, yet. We don't
know how intentional that was.
But it's certainly not the normof how things were done in this
patriarchal world. And, youknow, they were people who both
(35:20):
risked their lives for Paul, andthere wasn't any kind of
delineation of the men all didthis. And the women, you know,
maybe they made food orsomething, you know, which is
fine, but they were in there inprison and risking their lives.
They were part of this ministry,very hard working. And, you
(35:44):
know, I believe that it'ssignificant, that he names these
women along with the men,because it was not a common
practice. And it was notsomething that was, I don't
know, in the in the setting ofthe culture of that time. Women
(36:05):
were not often given that kindof honor that Paul gave them.
And so I think that's sosignificant. I love the
Scripture, it just inspires me.
And always gave me hope. And itis funny how we can just read
over those those are very seldomtalked about, and I think
(36:25):
sometimes even in discussions onwomen are just, it's not
mentioned is one of them,because because it's not a
directive so much.
Corina Espejo (36:36):
Yeah, I could definitely see that now that
you're saying that looking atall the names and the the
verbiage that Paul uses fellowworkers, my fellow prisoners,
right, and he uses that acrossthe board between the men and
the women and even from them tohimself Paul an apostle, there
seems to be just this. We areall one in Christ, we are
together, there's no one abovethe other or more important than
(36:58):
the other. It's, there's acertain togetherness about this.
Yes. fellow worker, again, youknow, you see it all throughout
how he mentioned some, when wethink about it, and you
mentioned presuppositions,right? Or the things that we
suppose before approaching thescriptures or assumptions. Are
there any other in readingRomans 16, that you can think
(37:20):
of, particularly as we all look,at least if you're on the
Western Front, but as we alllook at this passage, from that
Western cultural lens, or even apatriarchal lens, or even our,
you know, Church of Christ, orICC lens?
Jeanie Shaw (37:35):
Well, there is a theory as the interesting debate
that went on for quite a while.
And that is about junia. And youknow, that she was spoken well
of among the apostles, it'swritten in different ways that
IV says they were outstandingamong the apostles. And because
that language was used, peopletried to say that junia was a
(37:59):
male, because how could she be?
How could a woman be outstandingamong the apostles? And so maybe
that's a preconceived notion.
Really, most all scholars agreethat this name was only used as
a as a female. But I also thinkpeople try to say, okay, that
(38:21):
she was, you know, she wascertainly not one of the 12
they're the 12 apostles, capitalA. And, you know, apostles are
really bearers of the witness ofJesus, you know, they're, you
know, there's a lot of little aapostles that were, if you want
to describe it like that. So Idon't think there's any
(38:43):
statement to be made of, Oh, shewas one of the apostles, you she
was outstanding among theapostles. And certainly, all of
these women were very much apart of getting the message of
Jesus out and working hard for,for him. And so, certainly,
outstanding among the apostleswould be a very appropriate
(39:04):
view. But it's funny how thisthese presuppositions tried to
change for many, amongst sometried to change the name,
because certainly that could notbe a woman. And I think that's
an example of looking through alens of our own culture and what
we're
Corina Espejo (39:25):
used to. Yeah, and I I've loved hearing even
just in previous episodes fromJason, being able as we talk
about selective literalism, orjust the lens that we all have
grown up with and we haveunderstanding more about the
Bible and even women throughoutthe Bible, you know, even we
talk about those who havewitnessed apostle being okay,
(39:46):
something to the effect ofwitnessing Christ in the first
evangelists being women, thateven within Romans 16 there are
a number of different women butit's hard i think i the
conclusions, we jumped Becauseof our pre suppositions, being
aware of it, being careful of itand doesn't have to mean
(40:07):
everything is wrong threweverything out the window, you
know, but it is it's good justto kind of be aware as you were
talking about. Are there anyother that you've noticed have
come up in Romans 16 any otherpresuppositions?
Jeanie Shaw (40:22):
Not really? No, I think that again, because these
are, I don't think these arepassages that are trying to
state. This is what women areallowed to do in church or not,
I think they were a combinationof get member The, the focus of
this letter was uniting dividedchurch through faith through the
(40:45):
justification offered by Jesus.
That was the focus, the focuswasn't on the structure of a
church. Again, it was probablydealing with house churches at
this time. And people mentioned,were usually ones who were
hosting or leading, if you wouldsay those house churches. But
again, I don't think we canreally draw conclusions except
(41:08):
for they had a place they Paulvalued them highly. Certainly
there was some kind of role thatwe know that Phoebe played some
kind of specific church rolethat she had. So I don't want to
try to take more than thescripture allows us to take from
(41:29):
it. But certainly the theme ofunity and the value that Paul
wanted to be made knownthroughout time of women, that
were his partners, and thegospel can't be denied. And I
appreciate that. That means alot to me. I know as a woman,
Travis Albritton (41:55):
amen. And I just want to throw a carrot in
here, just a little sticky note,because I love what you just
said Jeannie about how like,it's so easy, especially if you
come to the Bible with an ideaof what you're hoping to find.
like to just latch on to thingsand say, Oh, here it is, right.
junia outstanding among theapostles, that answers all my
(42:15):
questions. My search is done. Ican Hey, if junia can be
recognized for for preaching andfor prayer, then, you know,
everything else will just, it'snot even relevant anymore. I
have my answer. And so it's it'sa caution to us. Right? I say we
have to we have to take more onboard than just finding some
things that agree with whatwe're hoping the Bible says, and
(42:39):
have the discipline to recognizehow, how important or relevant
or substantial is this oneobservation? And how much weight
should we put on a singleobservation or a passage or
something like that? Becausebecause that can certainly be a
danger. Right? Right to seesomething that says what you
(43:01):
hoped it would say, and thennow, like, that just becomes
your new lens, right, that younow interpret the rest of the
Bible through?
Jeanie Shaw (43:07):
No, I think that's important to bring up and, you
know, what does that meanoutstanding among the passes, we
don't really know. You know, didit mean that they were that
among people who were recognizedas apostles, little a, she was
one of the really outstandingones. Or she was, you know, a
(43:28):
group of pastors, they just thisthis woman, there is something
amazing about her. We don't knowall that. And we certainly can't
build up a doctrine I don'tbelieve around that of what this
means
Corina Espejo (43:41):
what we can take away and what I'm hearing is
Romans 16, just fits perfectlywithin the entire letter and
Paul sentiment of unity andChrist and just loving each
other, honoring each other.
Throughout the work we do in theGospel, right? He just ends it
with these personal greetingsand praise for the people that
he's worked with both men andwomen alike. What can we draw
from Paul's praise of the womenbut more specifically, in Romans
(44:06):
16, looking at the differentdynamics that we see, you know,
we see Phoebe who's alone. Wesee Priscilla and Aquila. Right?
And then we see you know, sayAndronicus and junia. We have
all these dynamics. Let's firstjust look at the women and then
let's put them in the contextof, of maybe some of their their
male partners. So we have Phoebeand you mentioned, you know,
(44:29):
where she possibly single, whoknows. But she's mentioned
alone, right? Then we havePriscilla. And it sounds like
all of these were almost housechurch leaders as what most
scholars are suspecting theywere in some way shape or form.
leaders within their own rightwithin that church. Some people
think that she was a missionary.
(44:53):
There was another context whereher and her husband are resuming
her and you know, Aquila is herhusband They taught Apollo's
together, right? And then wealso have junia. Right? And
there is that question, okay?
She have male or she a female?
most scholars believe she was afemale. And we have that
question. Okay. Was she anapostle or not? Or, in
(45:16):
prepositions are hard in mostlanguages, including English,
right? So you have, you know,she was my Version says well
known to the apostles in theapostles among the apart, right?
Like, prepositions are hard. Soyeah, so we have all these
women, what can we gather, ifanything from these dynamics,
(45:37):
these different women?
Jeanie Shaw (45:39):
Well, I think one is that God can use us all.
Regardless of our status orbackground, some single married
like I'd mentioned of, of higherstanding like Phoebe, from a
background of slavery. Theseweren't differentiated the way
(45:59):
we know that is by what theirnames were. But Paul, he counted
them as his fellow workers. Andto me, that is the most powerful
thing that he states there,these are my fellow workers
there. When someone's yourfellow worker, there's a respect
(46:20):
and honor. You know, men andwomen both can feel this. But
there's a difference when youfeel like you're okay, we have
to include her, we have to saysomething to him. There's a
difference when you are viewedas one of them. As a fellow
worker, and you I would love tosee more women have that
(46:44):
opportunity to feel that theyare fellow workers, with church
leaders and among churchleadership. Again, Paul's
attitude here is beautiful, isbeautiful. And he doesn't have
to highlight them. But he does.
And again, that's the thing thatstands out to me, that's the
biggest takeaway, no matter whattheir background is, their
(47:06):
marital status, their role insociety. to Paul, they are
fellow workers.
Corina Espejo (47:14):
Yeah, in the multicultural world that we live
in. Particularly in America,it's quite a bit of a melting
pot, no matter where you aresome cities more than others. I
always find it interesting tothink, Okay, well, how do we all
feel honored and praise andfiguring out how to pursue that,
it's never going to be just oneway, you know, for one person,
it's, Hey, thank me from thepulpit from another person's
(47:36):
like, Don't mention me at all,just get me a really nice
Starbucks gift card, right? Youknow, like, in order to honor
and to praise and to put valueon different people. My heart
goes out to churches where, youknow, it's not going to be the
same thing for any one person orgroup of people. I think about
teens and how they love to behonored versus you know, of me
as a millennial. It's going toit's going to change, but I
(48:00):
think there's something aboutwhat I'm hearing is, it's on us
to figure it out, figure out howto honor each other, how to
praise each other, how to givethose commendations in a way
that's unifying in Christ.
Jeanie Shaw (48:11):
Can I say one thing there? Yeah, I think this.
That's very important. I thinkwe've got to have conversations
with that. But also, I thinkwe've got to take it upon
ourselves to feel like you knowwhat, I am just an unworthy
servant. With God, I don't, I'mnot doing anything for the
praise of people. And that's ahard thing. Because we can get
(48:34):
our feelings hurt. Again,there's a balance there, I think
we should seek to honor eachother and hear what that feels
like or looks like for a personwithout assuming it's the same
thing than us. Because the Bibleinstructs us to honor one
another, above ourselves. Andyet, it also instructs us to lay
(48:55):
down our rights to considerothers better than ourselves, to
not do things for the praise ofpeople. So I think all those
things are there. We got to putthose together. And that takes a
lot of humility. takes a lot ofprayer takes a lot of the Holy
Spirit. The last teaching day Idid in Europe, I had a little
exercise I had the men andwomen. These were all people
(49:18):
training for ministry, and hadthem line up on one side of the
room, and you're talking abouthonoring each other and making
each other feel valued. And thefirst questions were just more
world centered, worldly centeredquestions I asked step forward.
If you have ever had to planyour route, going home so that
(49:42):
you wouldn't be feared beingmolested, you know, step
forward. If you have had toreally consider where you get on
a subway so that you won't befondled. Step forward if you had
been paid less for the same jobthat a man is doing. And I went
through some of those. But thenthe last six questions were,
(50:04):
take a step forward, if you feltlike you can't use gifts in the
church, because of your gender,step forward, if you have felt
like, if you say something withtoo much passion, you'll be
corrected, step forward, if thisand at the end of the time, when
I ask these questions, everysingle woman had stepped forward
(50:29):
on every single one. And the menwere all lined up on the wall.
And it wasn't the firstquestions that brought up the
motions because women are usedto that, you know, Okay, I gotta
be careful if it was the lastones about how they felt treated
in the church. And that theywere there, many of them just
(50:54):
had tears rolling down theireyes, because that's where the
pain came from. That wassobering to see that. And I just
say that as far as how to learnto help people feel respected. I
know, personally, it's, I talkedto so many people who so many
women who say they feel likethey are much more respected in
(51:16):
their places of work than in thechurch. And that hurts. That
makes me sad. That makes mereally sad.
Travis Albritton (51:23):
So one thing I want to kind of interject here,
as we're wrapping up thisepisode, and we're looking at
how Paul commends these women,for the work that they're doing
partnership in the ministry. Onething that we should certainly
hang our hats on as a movementas a denomination is the fact
that we actually do pay women tobe in the full time ministry,
that the role of women'sministry leader is actually
(51:43):
pretty unique, even among therestoration churches, and then
evangelical ChristianChristianity at large.
Typically, if you're going to bea woman serving in full time
ministry, it's only because yourhusband is there. And you're
kind of like an afterthought,like, well, you're the pastor,
and then the pastor's wife,elder, and that elders wife, but
you're not really given a seatat the table. You're not really
(52:05):
valued for what you bring, tohelping advance the ministry.
And so so hopefully, that's apart of our DNA, we never lose
that, that historically, we haveelevated women in ways that
other church denominations havenot. My dog is going nuts.
Corina Espejo (52:21):
She's excited to
Travis Albritton (52:23):
that's the nature of a podcast, you get the
home and home recordingenvironment. But I also don't
want to gloss over the fact thatthat that doesn't mean that
there isn't work we can do, orcorporate repentance that
shouldn't take place,recognizing that there are areas
where we fall short, where wedon't recognize sisters for the
work they're doing in advance inthe kingdom, overlooking women
(52:45):
that are serving in roles thatneed to be recognized. And
they're just either off theradar, or it's indelicate to
bring it up in a public setting.
And I think it's up to each ofus to really search our hearts
and make sure that, that we'renot being selective and who we
praise and who we raise up. Andthat we really do embody the
spirit that Paul gives us andRomans 16 that it's all of us
(53:06):
together, and the picture of allof us together, that really
makes the kingdom Shine On that
Corina Espejo (53:13):
note, I mean, let's, let's roll right into the
takeaways. I I love Paul'sthemes. And Jeanie you mentioned
his his overarching theme, allpeople are invited into this
family of God and to newhumanity that, you know, Jesus
transforms our hearts. And it'shim right that we have that
unity unity to love each other.
Whether that's in forgiveness orsacrifice, or even what we've
(53:34):
talked about, talked aboutpraising one another and
commendations. I think takingour cues from Paul, how he ends
this letter to the church, heends it with just so much
personal greetings of people herespected as fellow workers and
for us to take our cues tofigure out how can we do that?
How can we bring that into ourchurch, this unity and this
appreciation for one another? Ilove it. It's still consistent
(53:58):
with what we've been talkingabout throughout the entire
narrative of the Bible. And yetit's it can be very convicting
if we let it for us personally,and for us as a corporate
church.
Travis Albritton (54:10):
Amen. But with that, we'll wrap this episode.
Jeanie, we're excited to be backwith us for the next week's
episode as well. If you haven'tyet signed up for the
newsletter, you can do that forfree at women church podcast
comm there's also a link in theshow notes, you can click that
we'll send you study guides thatyou can use to dive deeper into
these topics, and stay up todate with new episodes as they
come out. But we hope youenjoyed this episode. And we
(54:32):
hope you'll stick around fornext week where we start digging
into some more wonderful Paulineepistles and we're gonna dive
headfirst and First Corinthians
Welcome back to the women in the church
podcast where we take a freshlook at what the Bible teaches
about women in church. For theICOC, and Corina, today we have
just a lovely guest. Joining us.
Yes, we do. Jeannie, thank youso much for joining us on the
podcast today.
Jeanie Shaw (00:17):
Oh, it's great to be here. Thank you for inviting
me. I've really enjoyed theepisode so far, I really
appreciate the the spirit inwhich they're done and the
information that's given. Soit's great to be here.
Travis Albritton (00:30):
Wonderful.
Well, if we've passed the testso far, that's great to hear.
For anyone who's listening tothis that isn't familiar with
your book, or worked with you inministry, just give us a little
bit of background of kind ofyour experience with ministry,
your academic background, andalso the work you've done on
this topic in particular.
Jeanie Shaw (00:47):
Oh, okay. Sure.
Well, I'll try to do thisbriefly, even though I'm 67
years old, so I won't go throughyear by year. But it is
interesting, I, I knew I alwaysjust wanted to, especially for
my teen years on I wanted tojust live forgot I wanted to
make a difference for him inthis world. I didn't quite know
(01:07):
how to do it. I became aChristian when I was a young
team. And you know, tried to,you know, I shared my faith with
different people, differentways. But I thought, you know,
maybe I was mistake, they shouldhave been a man because I really
wanted to, you know, be amissionary or do something
(01:30):
breaching something. I don'tknow why just, you know, I
didn't really want to be a man.
But I felt like I didn't knowhow to do that. But I met my
husband when we were in collegeat the University of Florida.
And my husband Wyndham, hewanted to go in the ministry and
(01:53):
did and that was great, becauseI had that deep desire as well.
And so right out of college, Iwent into the ministry, the ripe
old age of 20. And I justretired last month, and I'm 67.
So you can do the math. I'vebeen in the ministry quite a
while I started in campusministry, we did take a step
(02:15):
working with hope worldwide forabout eight years, which was a
tremendous experience. And thenI served for many, many years in
the Boston church is a women'sministry leader, my husband was
an elder and evangelist. Sadly,I lost him about two years ago,
he passed away after a terribleneurological disease, and I miss
(02:38):
him every day. And I feel likeI've never been really a single
woman in the ministry. And italso helps me realize that and
that can be challenging can bevery challenging. But how I got
on this subject, I probably itwas about maybe it was less than
it maybe about six or sevenyears ago, I was teaching at the
(03:04):
European Bible school. And thewomen's section was on First
Timothy two, and I was given asection on shall be saved
through childbirth. And Ithought, What in the world? Is
this talking about? You know,really, I mean, is this, they
must have messed up in thescripture they gave me and I
(03:25):
started looking at the wholething and realize, I had just
stopped those things for years,because I didn't know what they
meant. I didn't know how toexplain them. And I never really
heard them talked about. And soI just stuffed them. But I felt
like I needed answers I neededto find out and I was you know,
I knew the Bible could explainitself. And I didn't have to be
(03:48):
scared of anything. And so Ireally set out on a journey I
studied, I read Oh, yeah, Amazonloved me. I spent a lot of money
on books. AndI read so many books, so many
commentaries. I spent aboutthree years studying, I didn't
have the intention of writing abook at the time, but then,
honestly, I decided to to helpme put it together and make
(04:11):
sense because I thought if Ican't, if I can't write it down
and talk about it in a way thatmakes sense, then, you know, I
probably really haven't learnedit. And so that's how the book
The view from Paul's window,Paul's teachings on women was
born. And it was a reallychallenging experience in many
ways, but I so appreciate youcertainly on a topic like this.
(04:33):
I did not want to write in avacuum. And I got a tremendous
amount of input from so manyteachers and people who are
smarter than me on differentsubjects that really helped to
shape it. And again, it's notthe final word. It's just it's
my thoughts of what I've learnedfrom my study, I was able to
(04:53):
participate in the ICC taskforcethat put together by And gender
book. But the thing that excitedme more than even just the topic
was feeling like, I was startingto appreciate the big picture of
the Bible, the story of theBible in a way that just
thrilled me, Old Testament hadbeen kind of, you know, the way
(05:17):
I was taught that was just old.
And you could get some Biblestories out of it. But it
really, we were the NewTestament church. And so I
didn't really have a flow of howthe narrative worked. And it
just helped me so much, which iswhy I appreciate those episodes
that Jason gave that was great.
And, you know, maybe Idiscovered a couple things in
(05:40):
the pandemic, one that I hadalways wanted to get some
further training. And my husbandand I joked about this, some
because he was in graduateschool when we were early
married. And I wanted to takesome classes. But it was very
clear that that was not forwomen. He apologized for that a
lot later, but it was sosupportive when I told him, I
(06:01):
really wanted to go back toschool. And so about two years
ago, now I graduated with myMaster's in spiritual formation,
loved Oh, I loved it. And so Ithought, I really want to do
some adjunct teaching, I want tobe involved in you know, in
formation of students lives andthinking, and just to keep
(06:22):
learning. So I began, this year,I began my doctorate program in
the same fields, and I'm lovingit, absolutely loving it. So
it's been, it's been a greatjourney. And I figured, hey,
I'll be Lord willing, 70 yearsold when I graduate. But hey,
you know, I'm still here. God'snot done with me yet. So we'll
(06:43):
see what happens.
Travis Albritton (06:46):
Amen to that we're very grateful that you're
here. And that certainly God isnot done with you yet, for sure.
So Jeannie, as we were kind ofjoking about before we started
recording, we saved all thegreat all the easy Scriptures
for you.
Jeanie Shaw (06:59):
Thank you so much.
I really appreciate that.
Travis Albritton (07:03):
So it's everyone that's listening to
this point, thanks for beingpatient with us. And waiting
until now. Because now thatwe've kind of laid that
foundation of the whole Bible asa narrative arc, understanding
the perspectives we can bring tointerpreting it. Now we have the
tools in the backgroundknowledge that we need to push
forward. So Jeanie, why don'tyou just kind of kick us off
(07:26):
with laying the land a littlebit, before we get into the
epistles, we get into the earlychurch writings, especially
Paul, because most of the stuffwe're going to be reading for
the rest of this podcast is fromPaul, and just kind of give us a
lay of the land. So when westart going through these
passages and going through thesedifferent verses, and
scriptures, just to kind ofunderstand where we should be
(07:47):
coming from, and some thingsthat we should be aware of that
we might bring into it that weprobably need to leave on the
sideline.
Jeanie Shaw (07:53):
Oh, great. Thank you for that. I think that's a
great and important question.
And you, I know that when wetalk about this, it is important
to really look at the cultureand the authors that we're
writing. Because these are,these are letters, they're
letters written, they'reinspired by God, but they're
letters written for us. They'renot letters written to us, and
(08:14):
our own culture. And sometimesit's hard to, to figure all that
out. And I just want to say,just kind of in the beginning,
that I realized that culture ismerely a component of
interpretation. But it's acomponent that we can often
miss. And I think it can bescary to talk about culture,
because if we can feel like Oh,if this is cultural than what
(08:38):
you know, is everything culturalin the Bible? What can we hold
to? And those are importantquestions. But, you know, just
for some background, you know,culture is really defined as the
way our way of life of groups ofpeople, the things they do an
integrated pattern of humanknowledge, belief and behavior,
their outlook, attitudes,values, morals, goals, and
(09:01):
customs, you know, shared by asociety. But the thing is, these
ways of life, they might begodly, or they might be godless.
And we certainly see throughoutthe pages of the Bible a lot
more godlessness, certainly thatis being just repeated again and
again. But thank God, He givesus a way out, I really
(09:26):
appreciate that. But you Ibelieve, culture has got to be
evaluated then and theparameters of God's view of his
holiness of His justice of Hislove and unity, and his kingdom
plan his kingdom. Well, we canhear a lot today. And morality
is often defined culturally. Butwe can know God's holiness is
(09:54):
constant. You know, it's notlike oh, this culture can be
more Because it's accepted, no,his holiness is constant. This
God's holiness defines whether acultural mores godly or as
worldly, you know, thenatrocities like slavery. They
were in our cultural, but theydefied God's justice. legalism
(10:15):
was a cultural practice and canstill be there keeps the letter
of God's laws, but misses God'slove. And, you know, we're not
gonna we're not going to allagree, is we strive to
understand and follow some ofthe more difficult things and
God's word. And that's why Ibelieve the desire for unity is
(10:37):
got to be our desire, and moreimportant than getting our way
even because God desires unitymakes that very clear. But I did
appreciate so much the time youtook on the background of the
Old Testament and in Genesis andeven some of the patriarchal
lenses because we do have lensesthrough which we view scripture,
(10:58):
right? You spent good timetalking about new Jesus, living
and teaching, and the apostlesteaching and that ancient Near
Eastern culture and it's notalways easy to span meaning
across cultures and centuries.
And just to give you a littleexample, I asked my
(11:21):
granddaughter if she she's 18 Iasked her if she could just
connect compile letter for meand I wanted to abusing her
cultures vernacular. And I justwant to read this and think how
we might if this landed in thelaps of the ancient Near East
(11:42):
culture, how might they try toexegete this so bear with me
here? So my peeps john, Susan,Peter and Julie Yo, the prof was
being such a force today like Nowonder Shane cuffed yet she's
legit such a Karen went to themall so I can flex on the class
how professional I looked forthe presentation. Then went to
(12:05):
present it in class the nextday, drowning in my new drip
looking snatched, masked andvast because that's the law
here. The prof is acting sosauce, she said I lose 20 points
for submitting the dreadedthesis a minute late. Does she
not have an apple watch? Thetime was legit. I thought she
was capping but turns out shewas spitting facts from her time
(12:26):
max. I Loki thought the text wasfire after dough. The
presentation was sick though soidk why she was being a sketch.
bad vibes all around no cap. Shelegit didn't look up wants from
her desk while I presented thengave me a 60 like pro I was mad,
salty. idk while she wasthrowing some shade, so then I
called her out after class foryour sake, so this won't happen
(12:48):
again. Turns out she didn'tthink my dope fit was
appropriate attire. smh becauseit was too casual. I literally
looked so dope though. Like momjeans and a crew neck give boss
vibes only tbh. Like if younever saw the fit. I think you'd
put me with Harry Styles overyou. I pointed out the rubric
never said attire mattered andthen she finessed my grade after
(13:10):
savage moves only for this Queenperiod T grades all Gucci now
next class is lit so we'd bevibing next teachers the goat. I
think that's all the tea butI'll keep the squad posted if
she rages anymore. Thisshouldn't happen again. You are
welcome. Peace out, fam. So
Travis Albritton (13:27):
that makes perfect sense.
Jeanie Shaw (13:30):
You follow that?
Completely right?
Corina Espejo (13:31):
Oh Hunter. Most of it most of it.
Jeanie Shaw (13:35):
I heard some of it.
But I just tried to think youknow, in another culture in
another language to try togather What's going on? You
know, we think oh, peeps, youknow, john says Peter, Julie,
what kind of names are those?
The prof you know, somebody iscuffed? They must be in prison.
(13:59):
Her name is Karen. Oh, massbakst. And it's law. So we
better obey the law. Yeah,there's an apple involved. You
know, that must be there must besomething with the I don't know.
I mean, you we could go on, butI think we can see it's not
easy. It's not easy. And thisgeneration for me, you know,
(14:22):
baby boomer with a Gen Z to knowwhat in the world are you
talking about? And yet, that'sthe nature of letters. Now,
granted, they were inspired byGod, the writers were inspired.
But there were letters writtento specific problems and
specific cultures. And I saidthat just to kind of get us
(14:43):
thinking, it's not so easy,right?
And, you know, the thing we canknow is that we can know because
the Bible is inspired everythingwe need to have a relationship
with God, from a simple readingof the Bible. And yet in
interpretation can become shortsighted or get lost in
translation. When we don'tconsider word meanings, or
(15:06):
biblical historical cultures,genres, such as historical
narratives, or poetry, the useof metaphors and eye pearlies
and word meanings that are sorich, and yet often so different
from our preconceivedunderstandings. And I think I've
mentioned this, but I know I'vestudied the Old Testament more
(15:26):
lately than I ever have. And itis thrilled me because I
realized, Oh, this is thecontinuation of the same story.
It really isn't. It's opened myeyes in so many ways. You I
think we have to just realizethe views that we have from
others windows are important itaffects they affect the way we
read the Bible. And as we'regoing to view, the world of the
(15:49):
some of the New Testamentwriters, particularly Paul,
realize that they paint words,pictures with their words, and
they can't really be alwaysreduced to objective qualifying
definitions, again, as mentionedin the difference in western and
eastern thought, but they'remore channels of thought more
than patterns of one dimensionalmeanings. You know, they're
(16:12):
just, I think, what wasmentioned the patriarchal lens.
And I just want to say a couplethings about that, because it
does take up so much ink in theScriptures, that I think it's
very easy to think that it isGod's ordained plan. But is it?
Is it simply a culture of theday to which the kingdom culture
(16:35):
is introduced? You know,Aristotle had household codes.
And you know, women that theywere that women should obey, men
are in charge. Household codes,and Greco Roman culture imitate
this, and they're so differentfrom the scriptures that show a
different way of treating eachother. I don't believe that God
(16:57):
is trying to replicate thestructure, but is teaching us
how to live in the confines ofthen the Roman world in a Christ
like way. And we know that inthe very beginning, he countered
that culture when he said, a manshall leave his father and
mother and cleave to his wife.
You know, Abraham left his homeand family, which was a counter
to patriarchal practice, andthen was asked to sacrifice his
(17:23):
son again, that's not in keepingwith patriarchy. And certainly
it was used for a lot of good isthat help populate the earth.
polygamy was allowed. I don'tbelieve it was God's plan, but
it was allowed leveretmarriages, laws protected the
widows and orphans and themarginalized. It did a lot of
good and order and protection,but it also produced polygamy,
(17:46):
primogeniture, privileges of thefirstborn violence, slavery, use
and devaluation of women,competition for territory and
power, earthly kingdoms andentitlement. And, you know,
remember, worldly kingdomsweren't God's idea. Kings
weren't God's plan and forSamuel eight, but he allowed
them because he had desired hiswill to be done on earth is in
(18:11):
heaven. He wanted to HeavenlyKingdom culture. And I think as
we look into the epistles, it'sjust important to realize that
like Jesus, Paul taught in theway that people understood in
their day seeking to bring thekingdom of God thinking into
their worldly cultures from theinside out, not the outside and
(18:31):
through cultural revolutions arewars. And then of course, we
have our own cultural lens inthe churches of Christ and ICSC
and you mentioned that some lastweek and the thing I realized
and when I began to study isthat I did a lot of selective
literalism you know, I read somethings the Bible and said Oh,
(18:56):
yeah, that's just what it says.
But then in the same chapter,other things it's Oh no, we
don't do that. You know, and sohow do we how do we deal with
that we're okay with goldjewelry and braids. We don't
lift holy hands in prayer. Andwhat does that even about? You
know, women aren't allowed toteach where there are men yet
First Corinthians 14 instructsthem on how to do it and what to
(19:18):
do. What in the world the savedthrough childbearing mean what
about the angels? disease,deception means you can't speak
things didn't add up for me andI realized there was a bigger
picture and I had to really cometo understand how I practice
selective literalism. You know,it's interesting, I've been
studying a lot the restorationmovement and our founding
(19:42):
fathers there and, and justseeking more unity. And what's
interesting is, certainly thatdidn't happen too well. But even
in the late 1800s, in therestoration movement, there were
women missionaries, there werewomen, preachers. And that
surprised me when I realizedthat. And the last thing I want
(20:04):
to say about this is just we canhave blinders to our lenses
obstacles to seeing beyond ourown presuppositions. And I
honestly think and I can relateto this, one of them is fear,
fear of asking questions, a fearof seeing problems, because for
me that complicated things, Ididn't just have my neat little
(20:27):
answers. But I realized theBible can withstand my
questions. I'm grateful forthat. And this study is only
brought me to a greater offerthe scriptures. But I honestly I
did have a fear that if Istarted questioning some things
in the Bibles, then I'mquestioning God, and these, it's
the Holy Scriptures, and God isholy, and I didn't want to be
(20:50):
reckless with that. And I don'twant to be reckless with that,
as I mentioned, I've been struckby lightning for real once, I
didn't want to see that happenagain, I did survive, I'm
grateful. You know, I think wecan have a fear of being wrong.
And you know, I learned the bestI can. But I also know that many
fully committed hearts for Godand greater mind surround me.
(21:12):
And I need conversations, youknow, I'm confident on some
things, on some things, I'm surewithout intending to be that I'm
wrong. Because that's the natureyou know, I can't be right all
the time. And on some I may wellbe right. And on some, it's just
impossible to know. And, youknow, I think we've got to
become aware of the lenses thatwe use. And it's easy to let
(21:38):
just even some things in ourlife, fog up our lenses. Because
we all have unique windows, wecan even read scripture through
our own pain, sometimes throughour family background, when
we've had a broken family, or Nodad, or there was abuse, or he
was absent or authoritarian, wecan read that through our own
(22:03):
pain, again, abuse, neglect,trauma, Death of loved ones
through our ethnicity, gender,socio economic factors, you
know, I would read itdifferently if I was brought up
in a warzone. Or if I didn'tknow where my next meal was
going to come from our culture.
It's been mentioned ourresources and education, our
(22:23):
ability to read well tocomprehend special needs. And I
know even though I like to thinkof myself as educated, I've
realized this past couple ofyears, some eye opening, heart
jarring things that I learnedfrom educating myself about even
(22:44):
things like systemic racialinequality in our country, the
land of the free things I wastaught, and things that were
suppressed that had a hugeimpact on my understanding your
political backgrounds, oursocial systems, our religious
traditions, we read our Biblethrough all of these. And you
(23:05):
know, just the last thing onthis, I can give you another
example of this recently, I havea good friend, and she'd written
a devotional, as we werepreparing for a women's event on
Esther from chapter one, andshe'd highlighted Queen Vashti.
And from my window, because Iwas raised in a loving Christian
(23:28):
home with a strong father and amom, who was who was very kind,
she didn't say a lot. Her rolein the home was to raise the
children to cook to clean andtasks that were deemed
appropriate for women. You know,I learned that I was never to
talk back in any way, or speakup concerning thoughts or
(23:51):
preferences as this wasdisrespectful to authority.
And, you know, you'll justobeyed. Now, obedience is a good
thing. There's nothing wrongwith being obedient. But back to
the devotional. You know, I'dbeen taught growing up and
therefore assumed, given theview from my window that Vash
(24:12):
date was wrong. In her responseto her husband, King's Xerxes,
after all the text says, herdisobedience to the king's
command would embarrass him andcause other women to disrespect
him. Yet, my friend had grown upin an abusive, sexually abusive
(24:32):
background, and for her that shewas a hero, because she was
willing to stand up and not beprobably paraded and naked, or
just for her beauty to a groupof a drunken party. And so how
we viewed that was verydifferent from our background,
and then just helped me tounderstand a little more how
(24:55):
that how that takes place. Soanyhow, that's a lot Right
there,
Travis Albritton (25:00):
yes, but a wonderful intro. And just so
grateful for all those littlenuggets, you drops, there's
little threads we're gonna beable to pull over the next
several weeks. But we wanted tokind of kick things off with a
passage that, you know, asurprising number of disciples
just don't even know about,which is Romans chapter 16. I
(25:21):
think it's because we get boggeddown in like chapter nine and
10. We're trying to like figureout like, what is Paul saying,
it seems like he switchesaudiences right in the middle of
his letter. And so so we wantedto walk through Romans 16. But
first, just kind of give us asense of what's going on in the
church of Rome at this time,give us some background into
this letter. And any kind ofcultural context that we need to
(25:42):
be aware of, you know, before weactually read through this
passage, and start breaking itinto pieces and pulling it
apart.
Jeanie Shaw (25:48):
Oh, yeah. I love this passage of Scripture. I
love Romans. You know, peoplesaid, if you get Romans, you get
the whole Bible. And there's somuch truth in that. But Chris,
Romans was written late inPaul's career in the background,
it's a church of Jews and nonJews. The church had been around
for a while, but the EmperorClaudius and expelled the Jews
(26:09):
from Rome, and but five yearslater, and vited them back. And
upon their return, the JewishChristians then found a church
that have become very nonJewish. And that created as you
see, as you read through thebook of Romans a lot of vision.
And so one of Paul's goals wasto see that divided church
(26:31):
united, some commentators feellike that was kind of a staging
ground before he wanted to go toSpain, and was really
addressing, particularly inRomans 16, those who are house
church leaders are hosted thehouse churches in their homes.
But the letter itself, it talksabout righteousness, the new
(26:53):
humanity that God has created,because these are the things
that can unite the church again,the inside out. Paul begins in
Genesis telling the story of howbroken the world is, and the
Jews are listened to thank you.
Yeah, those Gentiles, theyreally are messed up. I mean,
goodness from the beginning, andPaul and says, excuse me, you
(27:15):
are just as guilty, and maybeeven more so because you've had
the law. And basically is the inGordon Ferguson's phrase that I
love, you basically tells us thebest of us is a mess. And two of
his phrases stand out for me andRomans, that one, the best of us
is a mess. And yet God justifiesus just as if I had never sent
(27:39):
you I believe a theme is thatall people are invited to this
multi ethnic family based onfaith, Jews and Gentiles this
new of humanity. Of course, hethen he goes into if this was
God's plan, then why was thereneed for the Torah, and Paul
helps us see that it was, itfocuses the problem of the human
(28:00):
condition on Israel, so that wecan better understand it, and
Jesus took care of it. But Jesustransforms hearts, and that
unity, especially in chapters,12, and 13, are gonna is going
to come from our commitment, tolove, to serve, to give to each
other and to forgive each otherand to respect each other's
(28:21):
differences. Because this is thebackground, there were a lot of
differences, a lot ofdisrespect, a lot of things that
need forgiveness. And then Ibelieve when he gets to chapter
16, he's painting a beautifulpicture of unity were a third of
the people he mentions arealmost a third are women.
They're from differentbackgrounds. Some are Jews of
(28:43):
higher standing. Some are nonJews, some of them have names
that would denote that they werefreed people are from background
of slavery. And I love that Paulhighlights these probably house
church leaders just to showeveryone is needed. And we can
(29:05):
be united and this is what thechurch is supposed to be a group
of people from all kinds ofbackgrounds, men and women
choose Gentile. All of the rich,poor free slave that we are
united in one and it's abeautiful letter depicting all
that
Corina Espejo (29:27):
suit. Let's jump in. Let's read this passage. And
yeah, let's let's get into it alittle bit more. Roman 16. And
I'll just be reading verses oneto 16. And I'm reading from ESV
today. So Romans 16 verse onesays, I commend to you our
sister Phoebe, a servant of thechurch at century that you may
(29:49):
welcome her in the Lord in a wayworthy of the saints and help
her in whatever she may needfrom you for she has been a
patron of many and of myself aswell. Great Priscilla and
Aquila, my fellow workers inChrist Jesus who risked their
necks for my life, to whom notonly I give thanks but all the
churches of the Gentiles givethanks as well. Greet also the
church in their house, greet mybeloved at panatuss, who was the
(30:12):
first convert to Christ in Asia?
Great Mary, who has worked hardfor you, great Andronicus and
Jr, my kinsmen, and my fellowprisoners. They are well known
to the apostles and they were inChrist before me, great amply,
Gaddis, my beloved in the Lord,great Urbanus, our fellow worker
in Christ and my belovedstoechas great appellees, who is
(30:33):
approved in Christ, greet thosewho belong to the family of
Aristo. beuliss, great mykinsmen. herodion. Greet those
in the Lord who belong to thefamily of Narcissus. Greet those
workers in the Lord. Try faniaand try fossa greet the beloved
persis who has worked hard andLord great Rufus chosen in the
(30:54):
Lord. Also his mother, who hasbeen a mother to me as well.
Great a sin kritis flygon.
Hermes Petrova us are a mess,and the brothers who are with
them, great, Philo Lucas, Julianeris, and his sister, and
Olympus and all the saints whoare with them, greet one another
(31:16):
with a holy kiss all thechurches of Christ greet you.
Travis Albritton (31:19):
Well done, Corina, got your name, your
Greek name, a quota. And for theweek,
Corina Espejo (31:25):
I don't think I've ever had to say those out
loud. You know, you kind of readit in your head, and I'm like,
Oh, I apologize to anybody who'sGreek, or whatever, wherever
these names come from, forgiveme. So first question I have
just within this passage, Imean, not necessarily throughout
all of Romans 16. But maybe justthis passage, when you hear some
of these statements. Are thereany verbiage or concepts that
(31:48):
kind of sit within the contextof the Scripture, something
that's more temporary? Or can ittranscend the context of Romans
that it was written in? Can Iread it now and still get a feel
for what is being said?
Jeanie Shaw (32:02):
I would think it would be very transcending
because it's just a commendationof you know, he's really not
giving any directives here hePaul is only commending these
men and women who have been hispartners, some in prison with
him, and who worked hard withhim together for the gospel. And
(32:23):
that would be a transcendingprinciple two is that they work
together very hard with him. Ithink that's an operative word,
they worked with him. That'swhat he emphasized, they didn't
talk about they were under me,you know, his Apostle Paul, but
they work together for thecommon cause of Christ, and to
(32:44):
really have him be known. Andagain, many scholars believe
these were probably house churchleaders that he was writing to.
And this is one of the ways thatit's countercultural, from what
we have bought many times whenin that patriarchal world to
(33:06):
show that Paul thinksdifferently. You know, he
understands his culture, but hethinks differently, course.
Phoebe, the word for servant is,you know, it's our word for
Deacon or deaconess or minister.
And I wonder, because manypeople have tried to say it
wasn't really an officialposition, because but I wonder
(33:27):
sometimes if we would have thisdiscussion, if it was a male
name in their eye, most scholarsare don't dispute the fact that
this was some kind of recognizedposition in the church, she was
probably the patron of thathouse church, which often met
that they would organize it andrun it. And she delivered the
(33:51):
letter from Paul to the churchin Rome, which was honestly
quite honorable. And most of thetime, I've learned that people
who delivered the letters werealso the ones who read them. She
was probably quite educated andeven expounded on them. And that
(34:11):
Paul, not only in trusted herwith that, but asked that she be
received in a way worthy of thesaints, and you know that she
would be assisted in any way sheneeds. And even a little bit of
another countercultural thing.
(34:33):
And the next verse, Priscilla,and Aquila, I used to say a
quilt because it rhymes. I'm notsure what it is Priscilla, and
Priscilla and Aquila. But again,Paul calls them fellow workers.
And of course, you know, we knowthat they shared the gospel and
taught together, but it was justa common form of writing that
(34:57):
the man's name went first. Idon't want to make too much of
it. But I think it's in thisliterary context here. He puts
Priscilla first, which I don'tknow, you know, yet. We don't
know how intentional that was.
But it's certainly not the normof how things were done in this
patriarchal world. And, youknow, they were people who both
(35:20):
risked their lives for Paul, andthere wasn't any kind of
delineation of the men all didthis. And the women, you know,
maybe they made food orsomething, you know, which is
fine, but they were in there inprison and risking their lives.
They were part of this ministry,very hard working. And, you
(35:44):
know, I believe that it'ssignificant, that he names these
women along with the men,because it was not a common
practice. And it was notsomething that was, I don't
know, in the in the setting ofthe culture of that time. Women
(36:05):
were not often given that kindof honor that Paul gave them.
And so I think that's sosignificant. I love the
Scripture, it just inspires me.
And always gave me hope. And itis funny how we can just read
over those those are very seldomtalked about, and I think
(36:25):
sometimes even in discussions onwomen are just, it's not
mentioned is one of them,because because it's not a
directive so much.
Corina Espejo (36:36):
Yeah, I could definitely see that now that
you're saying that looking atall the names and the the
verbiage that Paul uses fellowworkers, my fellow prisoners,
right, and he uses that acrossthe board between the men and
the women and even from them tohimself Paul an apostle, there
seems to be just this. We areall one in Christ, we are
together, there's no one abovethe other or more important than
(36:58):
the other. It's, there's acertain togetherness about this.
Yes. fellow worker, again, youknow, you see it all throughout
how he mentioned some, when wethink about it, and you
mentioned presuppositions,right? Or the things that we
suppose before approaching thescriptures or assumptions. Are
there any other in readingRomans 16, that you can think
(37:20):
of, particularly as we all look,at least if you're on the
Western Front, but as we alllook at this passage, from that
Western cultural lens, or even apatriarchal lens, or even our,
you know, Church of Christ, orICC lens?
Jeanie Shaw (37:35):
Well, there is a theory as the interesting debate
that went on for quite a while.
And that is about junia. And youknow, that she was spoken well
of among the apostles, it'swritten in different ways that
IV says they were outstandingamong the apostles. And because
that language was used, peopletried to say that junia was a
(37:59):
male, because how could she be?
How could a woman be outstandingamong the apostles? And so maybe
that's a preconceived notion.
Really, most all scholars agreethat this name was only used as
a as a female. But I also thinkpeople try to say, okay, that
(38:21):
she was, you know, she wascertainly not one of the 12
they're the 12 apostles, capitalA. And, you know, apostles are
really bearers of the witness ofJesus, you know, they're, you
know, there's a lot of little aapostles that were, if you want
to describe it like that. So Idon't think there's any
(38:43):
statement to be made of, Oh, shewas one of the apostles, you she
was outstanding among theapostles. And certainly, all of
these women were very much apart of getting the message of
Jesus out and working hard for,for him. And so, certainly,
outstanding among the apostleswould be a very appropriate
(39:04):
view. But it's funny how thisthese presuppositions tried to
change for many, amongst sometried to change the name,
because certainly that could notbe a woman. And I think that's
an example of looking through alens of our own culture and what
we're
Corina Espejo (39:25):
used to. Yeah, and I I've loved hearing even
just in previous episodes fromJason, being able as we talk
about selective literalism, orjust the lens that we all have
grown up with and we haveunderstanding more about the
Bible and even women throughoutthe Bible, you know, even we
talk about those who havewitnessed apostle being okay,
(39:46):
something to the effect ofwitnessing Christ in the first
evangelists being women, thateven within Romans 16 there are
a number of different women butit's hard i think i the
conclusions, we jumped Becauseof our pre suppositions, being
aware of it, being careful of itand doesn't have to mean
(40:07):
everything is wrong threweverything out the window, you
know, but it is it's good justto kind of be aware as you were
talking about. Are there anyother that you've noticed have
come up in Romans 16 any otherpresuppositions?
Jeanie Shaw (40:22):
Not really? No, I think that again, because these
are, I don't think these arepassages that are trying to
state. This is what women areallowed to do in church or not,
I think they were a combinationof get member The, the focus of
this letter was uniting dividedchurch through faith through the
(40:45):
justification offered by Jesus.
That was the focus, the focuswasn't on the structure of a
church. Again, it was probablydealing with house churches at
this time. And people mentioned,were usually ones who were
hosting or leading, if you wouldsay those house churches. But
again, I don't think we canreally draw conclusions except
(41:08):
for they had a place they Paulvalued them highly. Certainly
there was some kind of role thatwe know that Phoebe played some
kind of specific church rolethat she had. So I don't want to
try to take more than thescripture allows us to take from
(41:29):
it. But certainly the theme ofunity and the value that Paul
wanted to be made knownthroughout time of women, that
were his partners, and thegospel can't be denied. And I
appreciate that. That means alot to me. I know as a woman,
Travis Albritton (41:55):
amen. And I just want to throw a carrot in
here, just a little sticky note,because I love what you just
said Jeannie about how like,it's so easy, especially if you
come to the Bible with an ideaof what you're hoping to find.
like to just latch on to thingsand say, Oh, here it is, right.
junia outstanding among theapostles, that answers all my
(42:15):
questions. My search is done. Ican Hey, if junia can be
recognized for for preaching andfor prayer, then, you know,
everything else will just, it'snot even relevant anymore. I
have my answer. And so it's it'sa caution to us. Right? I say we
have to we have to take more onboard than just finding some
things that agree with whatwe're hoping the Bible says, and
(42:39):
have the discipline to recognizehow, how important or relevant
or substantial is this oneobservation? And how much weight
should we put on a singleobservation or a passage or
something like that? Becausebecause that can certainly be a
danger. Right? Right to seesomething that says what you
(43:01):
hoped it would say, and thennow, like, that just becomes
your new lens, right, that younow interpret the rest of the
Bible through?
Jeanie Shaw (43:07):
No, I think that's important to bring up and, you
know, what does that meanoutstanding among the passes, we
don't really know. You know, didit mean that they were that
among people who were recognizedas apostles, little a, she was
one of the really outstandingones. Or she was, you know, a
(43:28):
group of pastors, they just thisthis woman, there is something
amazing about her. We don't knowall that. And we certainly can't
build up a doctrine I don'tbelieve around that of what this
means
Corina Espejo (43:41):
what we can take away and what I'm hearing is
Romans 16, just fits perfectlywithin the entire letter and
Paul sentiment of unity andChrist and just loving each
other, honoring each other.
Throughout the work we do in theGospel, right? He just ends it
with these personal greetingsand praise for the people that
he's worked with both men andwomen alike. What can we draw
from Paul's praise of the womenbut more specifically, in Romans
(44:06):
16, looking at the differentdynamics that we see, you know,
we see Phoebe who's alone. Wesee Priscilla and Aquila. Right?
And then we see you know, sayAndronicus and junia. We have
all these dynamics. Let's firstjust look at the women and then
let's put them in the contextof, of maybe some of their their
male partners. So we have Phoebeand you mentioned, you know,
(44:29):
where she possibly single, whoknows. But she's mentioned
alone, right? Then we havePriscilla. And it sounds like
all of these were almost housechurch leaders as what most
scholars are suspecting theywere in some way shape or form.
leaders within their own rightwithin that church. Some people
think that she was a missionary.
(44:53):
There was another context whereher and her husband are resuming
her and you know, Aquila is herhusband They taught Apollo's
together, right? And then wealso have junia. Right? And
there is that question, okay?
She have male or she a female?
most scholars believe she was afemale. And we have that
question. Okay. Was she anapostle or not? Or, in
(45:16):
prepositions are hard in mostlanguages, including English,
right? So you have, you know,she was my Version says well
known to the apostles in theapostles among the apart, right?
Like, prepositions are hard. Soyeah, so we have all these
women, what can we gather, ifanything from these dynamics,
(45:37):
these different women?
Jeanie Shaw (45:39):
Well, I think one is that God can use us all.
Regardless of our status orbackground, some single married
like I'd mentioned of, of higherstanding like Phoebe, from a
background of slavery. Theseweren't differentiated the way
(45:59):
we know that is by what theirnames were. But Paul, he counted
them as his fellow workers. Andto me, that is the most powerful
thing that he states there,these are my fellow workers
there. When someone's yourfellow worker, there's a respect
(46:20):
and honor. You know, men andwomen both can feel this. But
there's a difference when youfeel like you're okay, we have
to include her, we have to saysomething to him. There's a
difference when you are viewedas one of them. As a fellow
worker, and you I would love tosee more women have that
(46:44):
opportunity to feel that theyare fellow workers, with church
leaders and among churchleadership. Again, Paul's
attitude here is beautiful, isbeautiful. And he doesn't have
to highlight them. But he does.
And again, that's the thing thatstands out to me, that's the
biggest takeaway, no matter whattheir background is, their
(47:06):
marital status, their role insociety. to Paul, they are
fellow workers.
Corina Espejo (47:14):
Yeah, in the multicultural world that we live
in. Particularly in America,it's quite a bit of a melting
pot, no matter where you aresome cities more than others. I
always find it interesting tothink, Okay, well, how do we all
feel honored and praise andfiguring out how to pursue that,
it's never going to be just oneway, you know, for one person,
it's, Hey, thank me from thepulpit from another person's
(47:36):
like, Don't mention me at all,just get me a really nice
Starbucks gift card, right? Youknow, like, in order to honor
and to praise and to put valueon different people. My heart
goes out to churches where, youknow, it's not going to be the
same thing for any one person orgroup of people. I think about
teens and how they love to behonored versus you know, of me
as a millennial. It's going toit's going to change, but I
(48:00):
think there's something aboutwhat I'm hearing is, it's on us
to figure it out, figure out howto honor each other, how to
praise each other, how to givethose commendations in a way
that's unifying in Christ.
Jeanie Shaw (48:11):
Can I say one thing there? Yeah, I think this.
That's very important. I thinkwe've got to have conversations
with that. But also, I thinkwe've got to take it upon
ourselves to feel like you knowwhat, I am just an unworthy
servant. With God, I don't, I'mnot doing anything for the
praise of people. And that's ahard thing. Because we can get
(48:34):
our feelings hurt. Again,there's a balance there, I think
we should seek to honor eachother and hear what that feels
like or looks like for a personwithout assuming it's the same
thing than us. Because the Bibleinstructs us to honor one
another, above ourselves. Andyet, it also instructs us to lay
(48:55):
down our rights to considerothers better than ourselves, to
not do things for the praise ofpeople. So I think all those
things are there. We got to putthose together. And that takes a
lot of humility. takes a lot ofprayer takes a lot of the Holy
Spirit. The last teaching day Idid in Europe, I had a little
exercise I had the men andwomen. These were all people
(49:18):
training for ministry, and hadthem line up on one side of the
room, and you're talking abouthonoring each other and making
each other feel valued. And thefirst questions were just more
world centered, worldly centeredquestions I asked step forward.
If you have ever had to planyour route, going home so that
(49:42):
you wouldn't be feared beingmolested, you know, step
forward. If you have had toreally consider where you get on
a subway so that you won't befondled. Step forward if you had
been paid less for the same jobthat a man is doing. And I went
through some of those. But thenthe last six questions were,
(50:04):
take a step forward, if you feltlike you can't use gifts in the
church, because of your gender,step forward, if you have felt
like, if you say something withtoo much passion, you'll be
corrected, step forward, if thisand at the end of the time, when
I ask these questions, everysingle woman had stepped forward
(50:29):
on every single one. And the menwere all lined up on the wall.
And it wasn't the firstquestions that brought up the
motions because women are usedto that, you know, Okay, I gotta
be careful if it was the lastones about how they felt treated
in the church. And that theywere there, many of them just
(50:54):
had tears rolling down theireyes, because that's where the
pain came from. That wassobering to see that. And I just
say that as far as how to learnto help people feel respected. I
know, personally, it's, I talkedto so many people who so many
women who say they feel likethey are much more respected in
(51:16):
their places of work than in thechurch. And that hurts. That
makes me sad. That makes mereally sad.
Travis Albritton (51:23):
So one thing I want to kind of interject here,
as we're wrapping up thisepisode, and we're looking at
how Paul commends these women,for the work that they're doing
partnership in the ministry. Onething that we should certainly
hang our hats on as a movementas a denomination is the fact
that we actually do pay women tobe in the full time ministry,
that the role of women'sministry leader is actually
(51:43):
pretty unique, even among therestoration churches, and then
evangelical ChristianChristianity at large.
Typically, if you're going to bea woman serving in full time
ministry, it's only because yourhusband is there. And you're
kind of like an afterthought,like, well, you're the pastor,
and then the pastor's wife,elder, and that elders wife, but
you're not really given a seatat the table. You're not really
(52:05):
valued for what you bring, tohelping advance the ministry.
And so so hopefully, that's apart of our DNA, we never lose
that, that historically, we haveelevated women in ways that
other church denominations havenot. My dog is going nuts.
Corina Espejo (52:21):
She's excited to
Travis Albritton (52:23):
that's the nature of a podcast, you get the
home and home recordingenvironment. But I also don't
want to gloss over the fact thatthat that doesn't mean that
there isn't work we can do, orcorporate repentance that
shouldn't take place,recognizing that there are areas
where we fall short, where wedon't recognize sisters for the
work they're doing in advance inthe kingdom, overlooking women
(52:45):
that are serving in roles thatneed to be recognized. And
they're just either off theradar, or it's indelicate to
bring it up in a public setting.
And I think it's up to each ofus to really search our hearts
and make sure that, that we'renot being selective and who we
praise and who we raise up. Andthat we really do embody the
spirit that Paul gives us andRomans 16 that it's all of us
(53:06):
together, and the picture of allof us together, that really
makes the kingdom Shine On that
Corina Espejo (53:13):
note, I mean, let's, let's roll right into the
takeaways. I I love Paul'sthemes. And Jeanie you mentioned
his his overarching theme, allpeople are invited into this
family of God and to newhumanity that, you know, Jesus
transforms our hearts. And it'shim right that we have that
unity unity to love each other.
Whether that's in forgiveness orsacrifice, or even what we've
(53:34):
talked about, talked aboutpraising one another and
commendations. I think takingour cues from Paul, how he ends
this letter to the church, heends it with just so much
personal greetings of people herespected as fellow workers and
for us to take our cues tofigure out how can we do that?
How can we bring that into ourchurch, this unity and this
appreciation for one another? Ilove it. It's still consistent
(53:58):
with what we've been talkingabout throughout the entire
narrative of the Bible. And yetit's it can be very convicting
if we let it for us personally,and for us as a corporate
church.
Travis Albritton (54:10):
Amen. But with that, we'll wrap this episode.
Jeanie, we're excited to be backwith us for the next week's
episode as well. If you haven'tyet signed up for the
newsletter, you can do that forfree at women church podcast
comm there's also a link in theshow notes, you can click that
we'll send you study guides thatyou can use to dive deeper into
these topics, and stay up todate with new episodes as they
come out. But we hope youenjoyed this episode. And we
(54:32):
hope you'll stick around fornext week where we start digging
into some more wonderful Paulineepistles and we're gonna dive
headfirst and First Corinthians
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