#8. Headcoverings and Haircuts

In this episode, author and teacher Jeanie Shaw joins the podcast to break down 1 Corinthians 11 and try to understand what headship, head coverings, and hair cuts have to do with worshipping God at church.

Grab your copy of "The View From Paul's Window: Paul's Teachings on Women" by Jeanie Shaw.

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Episode Transcript

Travis Albritton (00:01):
Welcome back to the women in the church
podcast. We take a fresh look, alittle bible teaches about women
in church. For the ICOC. Thelovely Corina, back as always

Corina Espejo (00:11):
Greetings, hello.

Travis Albritton (00:12):
And then Jeannie back for some more, some
more punishment, some more painand punishment for digging into
some fun stuff.

Jeanie Shaw (00:18):
Thank you so much.
It's great to be with you.

Travis Albritton (00:21):
So we introduced a lot of themes and
topics in the last episode. Andso if you haven't yet listened
to that one, make sure you dobecause it really is going to
set a solid foundation for thethings we're going to talk
about. In today's episode. We'regoing to be talking about First
Corinthians, which is one ofthose passages that you probably
were hoping we would talk aboutat some point, when you click to

(00:41):
play on one of these episodes.

Corina Espejo (00:43):
It's gonna be so fun. Well, first Corinthians and
we might even get to Ephesians alittle bit. Let's jump right in
Jeannie, help us understand someof the cultural background of
Corinth and emphasis and thechurches there. All righty.

Jeanie Shaw (00:57):
Well, quarren sometimes we say let's get back
to being the Church of theBible, New Testament Christians
in Corinth is definitely anexample of something we don't
want to imitate as far as a lotof what was going on in the
church there. But certainly, itwas real. And it was Corinth was

(01:21):
a pagan, bustling Greco Romancommunity. There was not
probably as much influence, Idon't know is is an emphasis
with Temple of Artemis, butthere was the temple of
Aphrodite and Corinth. You know,there was just incredible amount

(01:42):
of idolatry, immorality thatreally stemmed from that,
because a lot of the gods weresexual type of gods, or
goddesses, and what is beingaddressed in this letter, and we
can just read through it and seesome of the things that are
being addressed. Again,division. Wow, that seems to be
a common theme, a lot ofletters, right? quarrels,

(02:05):
worldly wisdom, sinful paganpractices, likes immorality, and
idolatry, correction ofrejecting Paul as an apostle
dealing with order in thechurch, spiritual gifts,
diversity, questions about theresurrection. And the thing
about the letter to Corinth, andeven the, the pagan lifestyle,

(02:30):
there was a lot going on in thechurch. And there are some
things that we just don't knowwhat was going on. Because
we're, it's clear from readingthe letters that are there that
we're missing a letter, at leasta letter, there are some
questions that had been raisedsome answers that were referred
to, and we don't know what theyare. And so it's a little bit of

(02:53):
trying to fill in the blanks. Wedon't know what the Corinthian
church had written to Paul thatcaused him to answer. Sometimes,
Paul seems like he'scontradicting himself. But that
can happen when we don't knowthe whole story. You know, he
tells the church one time thatit's better for widows not to
marry. Then in another letterthat they should, he tells both

(03:15):
men and women that each haveauthority over their own bodies.
It sounds like in other placesthat men have authority over
women, but I don't believethat's what he's really saying.
But it can be very confusing.
And I think what's important tonote is, there's a lot of issues
going on in the Corinthianchurch. And Paul is addressing

(03:35):
those issues, very specificissues, very specific problems
in the church, would it bedifferent in another church with
different problems, probably. Soyou know, any situation like
that we can think of culture, Ithink of a teacher, you're going
into maybe a an inner cityschool where there's not maybe

(03:59):
some parental involvement thatthey would wish, poverty has
caused a lot of differentinequalities, and then maybe a
suburban very wealthy school, ateacher is going to be very
different. Going into those twodifferent places. You know, one,
there just may be so muchdisorder, they've got to, okay,

(04:22):
nobody's going to talk in thelunchroom, everybody's gonna
wear a uniform, you're going tobe go through a metal detector,
when you walk in. You're verydifferent needs because of
what's being addressed. Andagain, I think we get a hint
into some of the things going onin the church in Corinth as we

(04:42):
go through the chapter. I mean,for goodness sakes, they're
getting drunk at communion. Wehaven't seen that, to my
knowledge. In our modern day,you know, they're bragging about
least immorality of notincestual relations. I mean,
it's just it's messed up. It'smessed up. Culturally, there's a

(05:03):
lot going on. Again, it's a cityfilled with idolatry. I mean,
these festivals for the gods andgoddesses were oftentimes just
pagan orgies. Then there'sculturally, we mentioned last
time, there's almost like anew wave of freedom that some of
the women and Rome felt theywere finding their way into the

(05:29):
churches that called the NewRoman women. And it was kind of
a rebellion of sorts againstsome of the maybe the devaluing
that they had experienced for solong. It was based on a very
pretentious lifestyle for thewomen. They were getting into
the theater, and they werewanting to show their wealth a

(05:50):
lot through what they woreelaborate hairstyles, gold
jewelry, it was probably thoughtnot as much modesty as far as
Oh, it's too low, dresses toolow. It was more the modesty of
ostentatious and braggadocious.

(06:13):
And, yes, just very vain. And sothat was also coming into the
church and different ways duringthis time. And, you know, Paul
is a writer, again, he's dealingwith a specific situation. He's
a specific individual, he'sinspired by God, but God uses
the backgrounds and personalityof the writers. And Paul is is a

(06:35):
writer, he's a rabbi. He waswell trained as a faricy. He was
smart, he was clever, he wrotewith irony, subtlety. He use
riddles and sarcasm, he usedhyperbole. rabbis used often
used creation texts, they quotedphilosophers of the day, they
use contrasts. And I appreciatethat. Peter even tells us that

(06:58):
some of Paul's writings are hardto understand. And I believe
some of them really are some ofthe things Paul writes about, we
just simply don't really know.
And I believe we have to be okaywith that. We can know what is
most important. We can know theimportance of one Lord, one
faith, one baptism, one God andFather was all who is above all,

(07:19):
and yet again, I appreciatePeters acknowledgement that
sometimes, brother Paul, is notalways easy to understand. I'll
give you an example inCorinthians in First Corinthians
15, we have this issue ofbaptism for the dead. What is
that? First Corinthians 1529 to30 says, Now there's no

(07:41):
resurrection. What will thosedo? Who are baptized for the
dead? If the dead aren't raisedat all? Why are people baptized
for them? And as for us, why dowe endanger ourselves every
hour? What is he talking about?
Does it really matter? You butwe can look at what he the
writer was dealing with he wasdealing with and talking to the

(08:01):
Sadducees, who didn't believe inresurrection and kind of showing
them their lack of logic. Youpractice baptism for the dead,
but you say you don't believe inresurrection. Go figure that one
out. You know, Paul was he wasdelivered in his words and his
timing. And again, he wasinspired by God. But God uses
people styles and personalities.
As they write. Paul usessarcasm. Just read through First

(08:24):
Corinthians four and you'll seesome sarcasm at work. He uses
play on words at times, he useshyperbole. Galatians 522 is an
example of this at least Let'shope so. In speak of duty,
speaking of judaizers he says Iwant them to go away and
castrate themselves. I thinkhe's using some hyperbole there.

(08:45):
Again, he contrasts twophilosophies and philosophers of
the day and contrast those twoKingdom thinking, he contrasts
scriptures to make points whichcan be misunderstood. If we
don't know the style, he's usingthe points he's making. And I'll
just take you back to another ofthe rights in Galatians, four
and five, Paul speaks of Hagarand points back to the Old

(09:06):
Testament scripture. And chapterfour and verse 30, get rid of
the slave woman and her son, forthe slave woman son will never
share an inheritance with thefree woman's son. Therefore,
brothers and sisters, were notchildren to the slave woman, but
of the free woman. You we couldread that in a way that is
incredibly opposed to otherthings that Paul teaches and to

(09:28):
the kingdom teaching of Jesus,we could read a completely
opposite of the intention tohelp the Gentiles understand
that they have full inheritanceand God's promise. And Paul is
using, I think, oftentimes, theculture of the day and kind of
turning it back on their heads,getting to think about it.

(09:49):
Again, perhaps no one had asmuch influence on the Greco
Roman culture than Aristotle,who was philosophizing in the
fourth century BC. See, and hisviews of women stem from the
belief that they had, they werereally genuinely a mistake that
they were genetic deformity. Andhouse coal household colds were

(10:11):
built on this. Women were theproperty of men, and usually
uneducated, because they wereconsidered inferior. And, you
know, Paul spoke in ways thatthey would understand, often
contrasting the views of theday. I think this was done, and
it may have been mentionedalready with slavery, you know,

(10:32):
he could have commanded it toend. And it's good to think
about why did he choose the pathhe did, you know, and giving
various ways of how masters andslaves should interact? I
believe he was getting at theheart. You know, we see other
times where Paul tells thechurch to not be Jews,
especially in terms of foodlaws. And yet, then he turns
around and tells Timothy to becircumcised. You know, there's

(10:55):
different reasoning going on,there was constantly the
conflict on how JewishChristians do things, and
Gentile Christians do things.
But I believe Paul, and I'msaying this in background to
some things we're going to betalking about, I think he works
within the cultural mores of thetime to try to persuade
Christians to think differentlyto think the kingdom of God

(11:19):
thinking, leading them out oftheir cultural practices, which
aren't God's intent, but werethe results of the fall of the
humankind in the garden. And youI think, this is some of what is
going on in what he addressesand the book of Corinthians. And
some of the things that are alittle bit difficult to

(11:40):
understand a couple

Travis Albritton (11:41):
things that you said, really resonated with,
you know, thoughts that I'vehad, or things that I, I've seen
to be true, especially being infull time ministry out of full
time ministry, every ministry isdifferent. And the problems of
each ministry seem to be unique,even though there are some
common themes oftentimes. And ifyou spend enough time in
ministry, you'll figure outthey're like children, every

(12:01):
single one is different, evenwhen you think that they
shouldn't be, it's like, yeah,you come from the same parents.
And so the things that youemphasize the things that you
stress, the things that you'rehaving to deal with, are going
to change and evolve and kind ofebb and flow, and things that
you thought really needed to beemphasized. It's like now
everybody's already on board.
And then other areas, you'relike, how are you guys still on
spiritual milk with this stuff?

(12:24):
How long have you guys beendisciples. And so even in our
own ministering to people, wecan see that at work that from
ministry, to ministry in personto person, our approach and the
things we emphasize and thethings that we teach and the
things that we correct are goingto adapt to the situation and
we're using wisdom to do that.
We're taking these biblicalprinciples and applying them in

(12:45):
ways that are relevant to thesituation and helping everyone
involved be more Christ like andthen also the the point that you
made about how especially withFirst Corinthians and the last
letter and there is sometimesanswers that we just won't get a
scripture that is alwaysencouraging to me to kind of set
my my heart at ease that likeoh, that's that's actually Okay,

(13:05):
is over in Deuteronomy, chapter29, verse 29, where it says, The
secret things belong to the Lordour God, but the things
revealed, belong to us into ourchildren forever, that we may
follow all the words of thislaw. And so you know, the things
that God has revealed to us,those are things that we can
cherish, that we can hold on tothat point us to the Creator,

(13:27):
and help us understand, whatdoes it mean to really live as
an image bearer and to partnerwith the work he's doing to
advance the kingdom. And that'stotally fine, that there are
secret things, those thingsbelong to God. One day, he
explained them to us, but in themoment, he's given us everything
that we need. That isencouraging.

Corina Espejo (13:45):
Well, thank you that that all makes a lot of
sense. I think for me, I wasthinking about when I read this
and really making sure I readscripture and I'm understanding
what does this mean for me?
Growing up in New York, therewas a movement within feminism
and of course feminism has comein waves and not all of it is
bad. I know people hear feminismand they're immediately turned
off I want to just help peopleto understand that as a huge

(14:08):
movement that has gone throughso many different revisions and
waves and it was interesting inNew York there was one
particular and I'm going to callit a denomination but you can
call it whatever you want. Butthere was a bit of a shift or a
split within feminism that theycall the Man Eater and they
actually built like an entirefashion style on it and I was
obsessed with it. I mean theymade suits fit the feminine body

(14:31):
but it was very like take maleclothing and make it look you
know very stylish and chic and,but it came from this wave
within feminism, this littlesplinter movement about the
ideals of Okay, well in orderfor women to be empowered, you
must step on men. In order foryou to you know, assert yourself

(14:53):
or make sure that you're valued.
Don't be afraid to you know, hitthem where it hurts right and
there was this kind of an I'mnot gonna call it vanity but I
think what vanity was for thenew Greco Roman woman and and I
like how you explained it. Ifyou have at the time Aristotle
who is devaluing in a way thatwould not honor God's ideals,

(15:16):
and you have the reaction theresponse is, well, Hey, wait a
minute, we're women now and wehave status and we can be a part
of the art so we do things letme let me flaunt right my my
value. I'm not going to let yourob that for me. Let me let me
make sure you know I am womanhear me roar, right? And that
vanity for the new Greco Romanwoman I wonder if a similarity

(15:38):
for me and everybody's got theirown different ones. That's what
I have to also remember, everycommunity, every person
listening, they're all going tohave their equivalent to this
Man Eater type feminism, right?
For me. That was an aha momentfor me anyways of like, Oh my
goodness, for me, the new GrecoRoman woman would be this man
need her feminist? Not feminismas a whole. But this particular

(15:58):
wave and this particularmindset, wow, it is vindictive.
And it is not embodying theheart of God. But I think it was
in response to mistreatment tomarginalism of women and it just
kind of went this otherdirection that was so ungodly,
unhealthy on Christ like, but Ijust remember thinking, wow,
this is something that has beenpraised as a young woman within

(16:20):
the community that I lived in.
In some ways it would seepwithin the church, you know,
will Hey, brother, I don't careabout you and come in and try
and get ahead. Why cuz I amwoman hear me roar, right? It's
like, Oh, you know, I look at itnow. And I'm like, Wow, so
cringy. But I gotta say, like, Iget it doesn't make it
acceptable. But man, does itmake it understandable when it

(16:41):
comes from women who have feltmy parents were upset that I was
a girl, they wanted a boy, youknow what I mean? Like, that
stuff doesn't just come fromnowhere. But to be able to deal
with it in a way that's Christ.
Like, it's humble. It's a hugecalling. And I encourage anybody
at home, think of that foryourself? What might be the
equivalent of the new GrecoRoman woman for you? And how can
we graciously but firmly say,you know that there's no place

(17:05):
for vanity, there's no place forvindictiveness in our church
family. And so anyways, Ithought about that, as you were
talking, and I thought was areally great example.

Jeanie Shaw (17:14):
Well, it goes back doesn't it to Genesis and the
desire for fallen humankind todominate? And that never goes
well, in any way. And I thinkPaul's words to the Philippians
and Philippians chapter two, Ijust read those often because

(17:35):
basically, it's, it is the callto have the same attitude is
Jesus who lay down his life forus, and really caused us to
really have that kind of heartto put another's needs above our
own. And that's a different wayof thinking.

Travis Albritton (17:53):
But with that, let's go ahead and jump into our
text for today. FirstCorinthians 11, verse two,
through verse 16, Corina, youwant to read that for us. And
lucky for you. We didn't drop abunch of Greek names in here.
Yeah. Read this, like a, like anEnglish speaker here.

Corina Espejo (18:09):
Thank the Lord, my American self, okay. First
Corinthians 11, verses two to 16says, Now I commend you because
you remember me and everythingand maintain the traditions even
as I delivered them to you. ButI want you to understand that
the head of every man is Christ,the head of a wife is her
husband, and the head of Christis God. Every man who prays or

(18:30):
prophesies with his head covereddishonors his head. But every
wife who prays or prophesieswith her head uncovered
dishonors her head, since it isthe same as if her head was
shaven. For if a wife will notcover her head, then she should
cut her hair short. But since itis disgraceful for a wife to cut
off her hair, or shave her head,let her cover her head, for a

(18:52):
man ought to not cover his headsince he has the image and glory
of God. But women is the gloryof man. Verse eight, for man was
not made from woman but womanfrom man. Neither was man
created for woman, but woman fora man. That is why a wife ought
to have a symbol of authority onher head, because of the angels.
Nevertheless, in the Lord womanis not independent of man nor

(19:13):
man of woman, for as a woman wasmade for man, so man is now born
of woman and to all things arefrom God, judge for yourselves,
is it proper for a wife to prayto God with her head and
covered? Does not nature itselfteach you that if a man wears
long hair, it is disgrace forhim, but if a woman has long
hair, it is her glory? For herhair's given to her for a

(19:34):
covering? If anyone is inclinedto be contentious, we have no
such practice, nor do thechurches of God.

Travis Albritton (19:41):
Wonderful. So a nice meaty passage of lots of
things that are very confusing,and absolutely so what is Paul
getting out here?

Jeanie Shaw (19:49):
As we look into Paul's letter to Corinth
realizing we don't know allthat's going on in the church,
sparking Paul's corrections, wecan only gather the most likely
meanings This isn't easy tounderstand. And to be honest,
I'm sure I don't fullyunderstand it. And maybe Peter
had this in mind in the letterhe wrote about 10 years after

(20:10):
Paul Penn First Corinthians whenhe said in Second Peter 315 some
things Paul writes are difficultto understand. I would amen
that. But sandwiched in betweena discussion of eating food
sacrificed to idols, and thenelitism and excessiveness during
the Lord's Supper, we have thiscurious situation mentioned and

(20:32):
chapter 11. Are you going to thechapter before in chapter 10,
Paul tells the Christians thatif they eat at someone's house,
that person tells them the meatwas sacrificed to idols not to
eat it, not because it was wrongfor them to eat it, but for the
sake of the other person'sconscience. You know, the
concept of eating meatsacrificed idols, really is

(20:53):
pretty foreign to our Americanculture. And so is the
discussion of hair length orhair coverings and worship in
chapter 11. There's somethingthat just it's really hard to
relate to. And so the challengeI like to ask and try to think
about and understand is, whatwas Paul seeking to accomplish

(21:13):
here? What problem? Is headdressing you? Was it a
hierarchy issue? Was it a unityissue? Was it an honor and shame
issue? Was it a disorder in thechurch issue? Was there a trend
where women were cutting theirhair for a reason or throwing
off or refusing to be veiled? Solet's dive in a little bit to

(21:34):
First Corinthians 11. Andhonestly, scholars are divided
on whether the headcoveringdisgust is a veil, because
certainly women did wear them inthis culture and other scholars
believe because of the contextthat the covering under
discussion is here. And we havehistorical evidence on both both
pieces. You know, historicalevidence tells us that veils

(21:57):
were of different types forsingle and married women, and
they had different purposes, butlack of veiling was associated
with loose morality, and usuallyprostitution. And honestly,
veils for women protected themfrom cultural disgrace and
sexual aggression. And becauseof the meaning for veils, a
married woman without a veilreally would be dishonouring, or

(22:20):
shaming her husband. Andremember, it is a shame and
honor culture. And so that makesthese issues deeply important.
And you know, we should keepthis in mind. I do have a whole
chapter on veils and theirmeanings in my book. So you can
look at that if you want to wantto read more on that. But we can
also discern from historicaldocuments that hair was often

(22:40):
considered a central part of awoman's anatomy. Women didn't
let down their hair in public.
And so even when we think backto Mary, wiping Jesus feet with
her tears, and drying them withher hair, probably raised quite
the eyebrows. And one of themost difficult of honestly,
several difficult concepts inFirst Corinthians 11 is
discerning the meaning of headand authority on the head, or

(23:01):
what's been called headship. Andwe'll talk about that more
later. But we surmise that thisdilemma concerned a practice in
the public worship assembly,because Paul discusses praying
and prophesying, and hecontinues with directives about
the Lord's Supper. And I mightjust throw in here that our
cultural practice today ofobserving the Lord's Supper is

(23:21):
quite different than it was inCorinth, in that it was a meal.
And even just looking at this,it's one example of a way I
realized I had, for so manyyears practice selective
literalism, I'd been concernedabout the way a woman spoke
while ignoring another Paul'sconcerns in the same chapter,
the attitude of division, lackof concern for the hungry with

(23:43):
the Lord's Supper, and a failureto discern one's own harboring
of judgmental attitudes. Are weas concerned about following
this pattern for the Lord'sSupper as a full fledged meal?
And making sure we don'tpractice elitism or a lack of
concern for the poor, thehungry, as whether men and women
are praying and prophesied in anappropriate manner? Why do we

(24:06):
easily discount one and not theother? And this just goes back
to ways that I think we get usedto interpreting an important
thing to note that this passageof Scripture assumes that both
men and women were praying andprophesying in the assembly. And
certainly prophesying can meanvarious things. Sometimes as an

(24:26):
Amos 716. It came as a sermon,Prophet spoke the word of God to
the people of God. And firstCorinthians 14 mentions words of
encouragement or exhortation.
But this portion of Paul'sletter deals with some issue or
problem in the church concerningpraying and prophesying for both
men and women. Some sort ofhonor and shame seems to be

(24:48):
involved, as it's mentionedconcerning men who cover their
heads dishonouring their head,and women were prophesying and
praying without properpropriety, considers it
disgraceful. You may be more wasmentioned in the letter or the
letters were missing, which Paulrefers to in chapter seven. And
that's something again toconsider. But there's a couple
of things to mention in FirstCorinthians 11, as well, the

(25:11):
translation in verse three, thehead of the woman is man is
likely more accuratelytranslated. And many footnotes
in your Bible will tell you,this husband and wife instead of
man and woman, the head of thewife is the husband, this would
be significant in this, if thisrefers to veils, and married
women weren't wearing them,which would in that culture,

(25:32):
likely have brought shame anddishonor to them and to their
husbands. But this passage isoften been used, and many of our
circles that teach that men areover women. And this isn't the
context of the Scripture, evenif there is some authority
involved. It would be in thecontext of husbands and wives.
But more on that when we get toEphesians five. And we often

(25:53):
assume from this chapter, thatthe custom kind of concept of
head shaped must be evident inpublic worship as it was with
the veil, or with hair length.
And if we interpret in a moreliteral way, then long hair and
short hair are the determiningfactors. A woman with long hair
is fine to prophesy, or a womanwith a head covering is fine to

(26:13):
prophesy and pray in theassembly. And a man with short
hair is fine to pray andprophesy in the assembly. But is
this really what Paul is seekingto communicate? Paul does say,
if it is a disgrace for a womanto have her hair cut off, or her
head shape, then she shouldcover her head. And so I think
the question for us is, is it adisgrace for women to have short

(26:35):
hair? If a woman shaves her headbecause it's balding, or because
she's in unison with a friendwho has lost her hair from
chemo? Is that disgracefultoday? Or is it committed today?
Is it dishonouring for men tohave long hair today? Again, in
a shame, honor culture, some ofthese things communicated
differently than they do today.

(26:57):
But hair length certainlydoesn't seem to be the ultimate
purpose of the discussion. Butsomething was causing division
and problems. And we might notfully know that. But under
discussion in the chapter isthat sense headcoverings whether
veils or hair, were a sign ofauthority in the public
assembly, as the women prayedand prophesied. Do women need a

(27:20):
sign of authority today in theassembly? And what even is that?
Is it a woman's husband standingbeside her as authority? Is it a
pulpit? Yo, some of these thingsthink real, you know, is this
really what's beingcommunicated? If it refers to
husband and wife? What about asingle woman praying and
prophesying? And what does Paulmean by authority, and chapter

(27:42):
11 and verse 10, it literallysays the woman ought to have
authority over upon physicalhead. Paul uses the word cover
when he refers to men andauthority. When in authority
when he refers to women, theexact phrase has authority has
often been interpreted in thepassive sense. In other words,

(28:04):
while wearing a covering, awoman wears the sign of her
husband's authority, or honorsthe authority of her husband, or
perhaps men in the assembly, ifone doesn't take them most
likely usage of the translationof husband and wife. With this
understanding, a woman can prayand prophesy as long as she has
a sign of authority on her head.
However, literally, the Greektext is not passive, and the

(28:28):
word sign is not in the Greektext. The active voice reads
that a woman possesses or hasauthority on her over her own
head. With this interpretation,it's not the husband's authority
that gives woman the privilegeof using her gifts such as
prophesied, but the authoritythat belongs to her through the
cultural mores of her day andthe gifts given her by God, when

(28:51):
covered, she has authority overher own head and authority from
God, not male authority. Now,personally, I'm not a Greek
scholar, and I am relying onstudies of those who do know the
language well, but interesting,Paul uses the same phrase in
First Corinthians nine, speakingof people exercising their

(29:11):
privileges, particularly theapostles and chapter nine, four
through six, he uses it threetimes referring to rights of the
apostles, do we not have theright to food and drink the
right to take a wife, the rightto not work for a living? And
this is the same phrase used inchapter 11 and verse 10. Is it
for this reason a woman ought tohave authority over her own head

(29:32):
or have a right to pray andprophesy in the assembly. As the
apostle of had rights. PaulExpress women have that right to
pray and prophesy. You ourunderstanding of this meaning is
key to how we interpret thepassage. If a woman has her own
authority from God, then she hasthat authority to pray and
prophesied not one given herfrom her husband or a man but

(29:54):
was showing honor and thehusband's authority as she was
veiled. As she did so, you thisisn't the way I understood this
in all my years in the church.
And when learning this I've hadto examine, re examine and pray
because it's different than howI was raised and taught, and how
I taught for many years. It'shard to take in, you know,

(30:16):
things that oh my goodness, Inever knew the hat. I never saw
that. I never considered that.
And I do realize there are many,and various ways that this is
interpreted, and I believe we'vegot to pray, study, examine our
own presuppositions, as we studythese text. You in First
Corinthians 14, three and 31,and we'll get to that later. But
we learned that prophets edify,encourage and exhort. And I know

(30:39):
for me for many years, I was sovery careful and instructive to
have as far as women speaking tospeak only in the first person
to ensure I didn't step over theline.
And it is very, I desire deeplyto be respectful in my words,

(31:01):
and my attitudes. And while thisexamination of Scripture has
been both deeply challenging,it's also been deeply
encouraging. And I'm eager tokeep learning.
You Another important thing toremember concerning women
prophesied is Pentecost, Peterused Joel's prophecy regarding
the outpouring of God's Spiritand Joel 228. And then repeated

(31:23):
in Acts 216 through 17, I'llpour out my Spirit on all flesh,
your sons and daughters willprophesy, your old men shall
dream dreams, your young menshall see visions, even on male
and female slaves in those days,I will pour out my spirit. You
and this seems consistent, also,the view we've been talking
about with Paul's writings inchapter seven and four, where he

(31:44):
assumes both men and women haveauthority over their own bodies.
But in the marriage sexualrelationship, he calls on both
husband and wife to give overthe authority that they have
over their own bodies to theirspouse. And this is a beautiful
description of a willing givingof oneself for the sake of
another, not focused on a right,someone has because they are an

(32:08):
authority over the other. Andthen chapter 11, verses seven
through 12. Looking back to ourGenesis study, remembering that
men and women were created animage of God. If we interpret
this one way, we could surmisethat women were not created to
reflect God's glory, which weknow from so many other

(32:29):
scriptures is not the case. Andthen Paul then connects this
reasoning with women andheadcoverings. And the angels
and because of the angels, andI'm thinking, Wait, what, what
in the world? Is he talkingabout? What is verse 10 mean,
because of the angels is forthis reason that a woman ought
to have a sign of authority overher head because the angels? Now

(32:52):
my guest says, We will probablynever know the answer to this in
our lifetime. And we may evenwith all the, the thinking that
scholars have done, we may allone day, hear from Paul, you
kidding, that's not a goal, whatI was talking about, I don't
know, you know, there areseveral possibilities mentioned.

(33:13):
One is because angels, you know,we're sittard present at the
assemblies and and honoringthem. Another explanation is,
Ben, because there was there'smentioned of the NIF alights and
thinking that there was whenangels had actual sexual
relations with human women, and,you know, maybe not attempting

(33:35):
of this to happen again. There'salso a thought because angels
can there's a lot of ways wordscan be interpreted, but the word
Angelo's also can meanmessengers, and certainly during
this time of Paul's writing tothe church in Corinth, there
were messengers known as theWakanda. Most again, I thought,

(33:59):
I put in my book, it sounds likea reptile somewhere, but but
these were actual assignedmessengers to come in incognito
to these public assemblies, and,you know, really kind of report
what's going on. It was a way tokeep things in order so many

(34:19):
times, you know, perhapssomething could be shut down
because of that, who knows. Butit was always important to Paul,
that the church shine is abright light in the world
because he wanted as many aspossible to be saved as do we.
And so perhaps, you want to doensure that these messengers
that came in did not seesomething that would cause them

(34:42):
to go and report this is a groupof unveiled women, a Loose
Women, and it is very ungodly.
So we don't really know. Butafter paws directives on how men
and women are to pray inprophecy in the assembly, and
what's often been interpreted tosay that men must have authority
in the assembly. Paul then saysin verse 11, almost as if to

(35:03):
contrast that conclusion,nevertheless, in the Lord.
Nevertheless, it's a word thatreally can show contrast, like
however. And he says, women,woman is not independent of man,
nor is man independent of woman,for as a woman came from man, so
also man is born of woman. Buteverything comes from God. We're

(35:26):
the Corinthians forgetting theyall came from God, what was the
problem being addressed? Again,we're not really sure. This
conclusion of woman coming fromman and man warned from woman
and everything coming from God,as well as the things we've
discussed. More personally leanme more away from a hierarchal
interpretation of this passage.

(35:51):
The context of this passageseems to be concerned with
cultural shame and honor andpublic speaking and the assembly
with a reminder that we'reinterdependent of each other.

Travis Albritton (36:02):
And what I think you just touched on there
is super key, because just acouple chapters, really First
Corinthians nine, Paul is reallylaying out his whole mindset
about why he's giving thesedirectives in the first place,
right, is that the way weinteract with one another, and
the way that we are a light inour community matters. And if

(36:23):
there are things that we'redoing, even if they're
permissible things that are astumbling block from people
coming to know, Jesus, thenthose are things that we need to
lay down and surrender, and bewilling to not engage with, if
it's going to hurt somebodyelse. So that's such a huge
theme in First Corinthians. Andso it totally makes sense. That

(36:44):
that is also flavored throughoutFirst Corinthians 11, that maybe
there are things that in thattime and place and culture were
expected. And it would be reallyweird and counterproductive for
them to say, you know what,we're just gonna throw this off.
That That makes a lot, a lot ofsense.

Jeanie Shaw (37:03):
And one of the things we said we'd mention is
an again, that is debated is,it's debated by many scholars,
what is the meaning of the wordhead, when it's used in the
scriptures about women, scholarsreally are divided, of whether
it means origin, or source, orwhether it means has some kind

(37:26):
of authority behind it. And mostof the biblical Greek lexicons
use it with, I think, all buttwice, use it, where it's used
with some meaning of authority.

Travis Albritton (37:40):
Greek lexicon is like a, like a Bible
Dictionary, but for Greek words,

Jeanie Shaw (37:44):
yes, yes, it is.
It's, it's Yes, it takes theGreek words and wonderful gives
their meanings. So yes, thankyou. You know, and, and looking
at these, again, it has inGreek, about as many meanings as
it does in English, because wecan use head for a lot of
different things. I'll just readyou some, some different places

(38:05):
where it's used, there are somany more, but it can kind of
show the, the way it can be useddifferently, you know, if what
we just read, if the origin ofevery man is Christ, the origin
of wife is her husband, and theorigin of Christ is God. You
know, there can be differentmeanings. Again, it can be the

(38:27):
head of every man is Christ, thehead of a wife is her husband,
and the head of Christ is God.
And certainly, that can makemuch sense. But we also know the
Father, the God the Son, andthat woman was created from the
side of man. So it can also beread, I think just as easily as

(38:52):
source or origin. In chapter 11,and verse 12. It seems more
cohesive to me with this, thisparticular understanding where
it says so as a woman came fromman, so also man is born a
woman, but everything comes fromGod, because again, he's talking
about birth here and wheresomething comes from kind of the
origin she used in FirstCorinthians 1221. I cannot say

(39:16):
to the hand, I have no need ofyou nor again the cathar lay to
the feet, I have no need of you.
Well, I think that would bepretty clearly talking about a
body part, not an origin orsource or authority. Ephesians
415, rather, speaking to thetruth in love, where to grow up
in every way into him, who isthe kuffar lay into Christ? Now

(39:36):
is Jesus our authority?
Absolutely. But the context ofof this seems like it would
really fit with origins well togrow up in every way into him
who was the origin into Christ.
Growing up stems from beginningplace. But again, you can see

(39:59):
it's difficult because it can beused either way. Ephesians 523,
could be both ways. For thehusband is the head with some
kind of authority of the wife isChrist is the head authority of
the church, his body in hishimself, its Savior, or the
husband is the origin of thewife is Christ as the origin of

(40:21):
the church, his body and hishimself its Savior. Again, we
know that something so mashedbecause the husband and is not
the savior of the wife. But thatthat's a hard one to know. It
could be interpreted severalways. Colossians 118, he is the
kafala of the body, the church,he is the beginning, the first

(40:43):
form from the dead, and theneverything he might be
preeminent. That could be and heis the head as far as authority
of the body, the church. Yes,true. But then it goes right on
to say he's the beginning thefirstborn, and that's where
origin seems to fit more to mewith the context, he is the
origin of the body, that church,because the next sentence, Paul

(41:05):
is actually talking aboutorigin. He's the beginning, the
first one from the dead, that ineverything he might be
preeminent. Seems like thesecond sentence is building on
the firstgaloshes to 10 and you have been
filled in Him who is the keyfillet of all rule, and
authority. You know, this,certainly the context is talking

(41:27):
about rule and authority ofChrist, and how were filled in
him. And so certainly that canbe the meaning, but could also
be, and you have been filled inHim who is the origin of all
rule and authority, because allorder comes from God, who
created order out of chaos, it'sreally hard to no clashes

(41:47):
tonight teen and not holdingfast to the Kahala from home,
the whole body, nourished andknit together through his joints
and ligament grows with thegrowth that is from God. You're
not holding fast to theauthority, from home of the ball
whole body nourished and knittogether through his joints and
ligaments grows with a growththat is from God, or not holding

(42:10):
fast to the origin or source,who the whole body, nourishing
it together through its jointsand ligaments grows with the
growth that is from God. Andagain, that could be interpreted
either way. But growth does havea beginning and an origin. But
also Jesus has authority.

(42:32):
Hebrews 1121, by faith, Jacob,when die, blessed each of his
sons of Joseph's bowing andworship over the folly of his
staff. Now, you know, there Idon't think that head of his
staff that could folly of hisstaff had authority. But it was
the kind of beginning point ofthe staff, the head of his

(42:55):
staff, so we could just see fromthat little sampling, that it's
not so easy to interpret in thecontext, sometimes can be used
both ways. So I think we have togive a lot of grace on that. And
again, scholars for years can't,can't come to a conclusion on

(43:16):
this. It's also difficult to dothat. And I think we have to go
to the principles we know aretrue of how we are to treat one
another. And even just lookingwhen Jesus having all authority,
what did he do, he laid down hislife and he gave it. So
regardless of how we might seeit and define it, it's all going

(43:43):
to end up in a self sacrificinghumility and love for each
other.

Travis Albritton (43:48):
So just to kind of recap real quick. This
idea of kephale head, as Jamieentioned is typically
ranslated, are meant to, to sayne of two things, one is
uthoritative, like we think ofhe head of a company. That
oesn't mean the CEO is a morealuable human being than the
erson working on the productionine. But they they have a

(44:09):
ertain amount of authority ineing able to determine what's
he best course of action,hat's the best path forward,
ight? Because that is that isind of a straw man argument
hat is used to to paintisciples that hold that view in
negative light of what you'reust trying to like, keep your
humb down on women. And that'shy you're landing on this
articular interpretation, whichs totally not true and

(44:30):
naccurate. And then the otheray is this idea of origin or
ource like the head of a river,ight? There's a there's
omewhere this river hasriginated from, and we see the
iver but we're pointing backowards its head or its source.
nd Jeannie did a phenomenal jobf walking through all these
ifferent ways that could follows translated in the New

(44:51):
estament and these letters andow Paul uses it in different
ays. And here's the maddeninghing. It might it probably does
ot mean the same Thingonsistently over and over
gain, we have to use contextlues, we have to use literary
ontext, we have to try andiece out what was his intent in
sing this word in this way,hat makes the most sense, but

(45:13):
hen also recognizing the wayhat makes the most sense to us
ight not have made the mostense to him or to his original
eaders. And, and that can beery maddening. So headship is
efinitely the big conversationround First Corinthians 11.
hat's the big takeaway that weypically have when it comes to
omen's roles in the publicssembly, we look at first

(45:34):
orinthians 11. And that kind ofnforms some of our church
ractices like the idea of thetoic man standing in the
ackground. So if the womanharing says something that
ounds a little too assertive,hat at least she's, you know,
orrowing authority from the mantanding behind her. Which,
gain, is always been verynteresting, because who gave

(45:56):
im authority? Right? Where doesuthority come from? Is it
nherent in the fact that you'reperson to a certain extent
ver creation? We see that inenesis, right. But over one
nother, that's definitely moref a Genesis three fallen world
heme than in Genesis two theme.
o what are we to make of that?
oes man have authority simplyecause he has a Y chromosome?

(46:18):
e lucked out in the geneticottery? Or is there something
lse at play? If you'rerustrated by the lack of
larity, Welcome to the world ofiblical scholarship. And the
onversation has been happeningor hundreds of years, that
e're pretty late to the partyn as as a denomination and as a
ovement?

Jeanie Shaw (46:35):
Yeah, I mean, certainly, authority is not a
bad word. You know, there iscertainly authority in the
scriptures. And yeah, therereally can't be any kind of
order without some kind ofauthority. And you biblically,
certainly, it seems clear thatelders have authoritative role

(46:58):
in the church. And youmentioned, you know, the example
I'd mentioned of man stoicallystanding behind, you know, it's
it's very interesting, you know,if one of the elders asked me to
speak the congregation, or wasfine that I did, you know, I
could say, No, I won't do that.
Because I'm, I'm underauthority, when he's just asking

(47:23):
me to do it, you know. So it'skind of interesting. And I think
that's where the questionsarise, you know, is that we do
hold to the fact that in thepublic assembly, there is an
authority, is it enough that forinstance, and elder in the order
of worship just to soak, okay,this woman is doing this part of

(47:46):
the service? Or is teaching thisor is teaching this class, the
church leadership knows about itis in full agreement with it,
and there doesn't have to beanybody standing there or any
visible sign? Because it's just,it's, it's no, no, you know, if
she were to, if a woman were toget up and on, authorize, so to

(48:06):
speak, and start taking over,and that's where we'll get into
First Timothy two, that'sanother thing altogether. But
it's, I don't think that wouldbe right if a man got up and did
that either. So again, we'll dosome more cultural things when
we get to Timothy as well. Butagain, these are, I don't take
these lightly, because this isthe word of God we're dealing

(48:29):
with. I want I don't want tomess up with that. I want to get
it right. But I asked myself atimes is this what Paul is
really? Is he wanting us to getthis practice just right, the
same as it was here in this oris there something bigger? That
he's really pointing to? Is thatthe way we are treating each

(48:50):
other? Is that the respect wehave for each other? Is that the
Unity that's there? Is it again,respect whether it's the part of
women respecting authority,which, with the new woman, that
was a big problem? There was adisrespect? I don't think we
know the answer to all thesequestions. I just don't think we

(49:12):
know them all. And I wish it wasclear. And I don't really
understand why it's not. Butperhaps Paul is wanting us to
look at the transcendingprinciples that are of utmost
importance that are mostimportant when some of these
things of practice are not realclear. Again, if we're going to

(49:35):
take it literally, then we doneed to go into the worship
service. And there's no menbonds for men. No braids for
women, no gold. Men do need tobe lifting their hands when they
pray, and not be angry. Soagain, this is where the we've
got to really think through arewe picking and choosing what

(50:00):
we're holding to? Or is theresomething bigger?

Travis Albritton (50:09):
One that comes back to the hermeneutics
conversation we had a couple ofweeks ago, right? So if you're
coming into this asking thequestion, What did a church
service look like in the churchof Corinth, at least as it
should have been happening? Andwe must do that and hold to it
in the same with the samerigidity and commitment that
temple worship was done in theOld Covenant? Or is it more of a

(50:31):
theological hermeneutic? Is thata better tact to understand what
is the heart of God here, andwhat is called trying to
communicate about who God is,and how we should imitate that
with one another. Or perhapsthis is a place where that
trajectory hermeneutic makessense where we're Paul is
pointing us towards something inthe future. And we're trying to
trace the path of this arrowthat he's cutting through the

(50:53):
Scriptures, starting back inGenesis in creation, moving
through the problems of thechurch in Corinth, towards what
the kingdom of God needs to looklike on earth. And which one of
those you use? Will color theanswer that you come up with?
Absolutely. And so so it's justvery, it's very helpful to just
recognize that, because then wecan, like we talked about, be

(51:17):
aware of the blind spots that wecan have when we have those
different approaches. Now, thereare some other things that some
other observations we can make,that I think can be helpful and
try to figure out well, what,what would be permissible,
acceptable, or, you know,encouraged practices within the
public assembly? And I think thefirst one, and this is something

(51:37):
that, to my knowledge mostpeople agree about, is in verse
five. Paul says, Every woman whoprays or prophesies with their
head uncovered dishonor,dishonor your head. There's an
assumption here that women arepraying and prophesying in the
public assembly. Now there'ssome issues with how they're
doing it. But that is notdisputed. It's it's not, you

(52:01):
can't do these things because ofthis headship. It's the manner
in which you do these thingsneeds to change.

Jeanie Shaw (52:09):
Absolutely, yes, I think that's a very important
point to bring out because theywere praying and prophesying in
the public assembly, you know,that can be forgotten

Travis Albritton (52:20):
sometimes.
Now, a word that we don't throwaround very often is prophecy. I
think growing up in the ICOC.
And even as a disciple, I alwaysthought is kind of like this
fortune teller idea of, youknow, God speaks to you in a
dream and tells you aboutsomething that's going to
happen. So you go and telleveryone else, this is what's
going to happen. And we do seesome of that in the Old

(52:41):
Testament. So how should weinterpret this word prophecy? Or
the idea that women are prophetsin the New Testament church?
What what would that entail toprophecy in a public assembly?

Jeanie Shaw (52:53):
I think prophecy is often talked about is speaking
the message of God, witnessingfor him and to him. So we know
that Anna is an older widow wasprophesied in the temple,
continually I doubt that she wasjust there alone all the time. I

(53:13):
don't know what all that means.
We know that the lips daughtersprophesied, that was something
that was known. It happened inthe temple in public places, you
know, we don't use this word alot. And, you know, I it's much
more than just the, theforetelling of the future that
some of that was part of some ofprophecy in the Old Testament,

(53:38):
for sure. But there wereprophets of God who spoke the
words of God to people. And soagain, not coming up with, you
know, this is I'm speaking whatGod is saying here.

Travis Albritton (53:52):
One thing that I think is something we can say
pretty definitively other thanthe fact that women did prophecy
is that there isn't anyindication that they had to like
hedge the things that they weresaying, to make them palatable,
because they were women. Itseems like Paul is giving not
permission, but reallyencouraging men and women
equally to share words ofinstruction, encouragement, the

(54:15):
message that they have beengiven. And there doesn't seem to
be any condemnation of that,apart from this headship
interaction that we're pullingapart. And so if we're looking
at a potential church practice,then that would mean like if you
invite a woman onto stage, to toshare a communion message or
welcome or to do anything likethat, that it might not be the

(54:39):
case that we need a man standingthere in case she says something
definitive from a scripture.
Yes, that if we actually look athow Paul kind of lays out the
importance of each of thesethings, prophecy actually comes
above teaching, as far asweightiness and how seriously we
should take it. And so so it'scertainly not a small thing. To
say women are encouraged toprophesy in the public assembly.

(55:02):
And even though that's not aword that we use, often, our
contexts would certainly say, itshould not be condemned that
women should be silenced, andnot allowed to speak to the
assembly. Part of the othercomplication with this is the
way that they did church is verydifferent than the way that we
do, right. And this is gonna besomething we're gonna talk about

(55:22):
towards the end, when we get topractical application, it's like
they didn't have auditoriumseating, they didn't have one
person elevated behind a podium,that we attribute a lot of
authority to, as a part of theirnormal public worship, it was
much more hellstrip style. Andso so even the posture of how
people are seated and displayed,we give cultural weight to and
so that's not something that wecan discount or ignore. And then

(55:45):
the other thing that I've alwaysthought is interesting, an
interesting observation is thatthe medium that is used to
communicate something hasauthority or not. So if a woman
goes up and shares what she'slearned in her quiet time, from
the stage, saying, This is whatthe scripture means this is what

(56:06):
it means for us. This is what itmeans to follow Jesus, you know,
that could very well be seen andhas been interpreted in the past
is having authority overdomineering over, but if that
same woman wrote it as a blogpost, or put it in a book, and a
man read, it's those exact samewords that would not be seen as
authoritative. And so it, I'mnot saying these things to like,

(56:29):
cast out and be like, well, weshould just question everything,
but just just to observe somepractices that we have, that if
we think them all the waythrough, we might need to
reassess some of them and makesure that we're coming from a
strong theological foundation.
And we're not just adoptingthings that have been passed
down to us. Not that that's abad thing. Paul even says, I'm

(56:52):
really glad that you acceptedthese traditions I passed down
to you, in the beginning of thispassage we read, but that
doesn't necessarily mean we needto embrace them wholeheartedly.
exactly the way they've beengiven to us without having some
additional critical thought.

Jeanie Shaw (57:05):
Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting, there was
a woman I think her name wasSelena home, and I'll have to
double check if that's the rightone, but and restoration history
in 1800s, she was asking thatquestion, because she was
prophesied, she was in a her adifferent setting. She was very
gifted in that area, and peoplewould come to listen, and then

(57:25):
there was a point when, youknow, was told her she couldn't
do that anymore. And she said,so what precisely is the number
that I have to get to to wherethen it becomes a public
assembly versus private. Andthat was interesting just to
hear that response and kind ofbrought Is this really the issue
that we're talking about? awheelchair, this has been super

(57:49):
encouraging to me. Over the pastfew months, I've had invitations
from numerous churches to doteaching days. And as the first
time I'd ever taught, and groupof men and women, it's probably
been about six or seven timesnow doing that, and it's been

(58:13):
very natural. And there's beengreat feedback. And you know,
again, I strive to berespectful. But and I don't want
to say anything, I don't havesomething to say. But that is a
big change. From where, youknow, we we were, and there have
been a number of changes goingon, and really grateful for

(58:37):
that. I really am.

Travis Albritton (58:40):
Amen. Amen to that. Well, I'm glad that you
get to come and share with us. Iknow that we're both very
grateful for that. Yeah. Sowrapping up here. One other
thing that I know is, is animportant thing for us to
discuss is towards the end ofthis, Paul will make some pretty
definitive statements. Veryclear, it seems commands with a

(59:00):
lot of weight behind them. Whichis very confusing, because when
we actually step back and thinkabout it, is that really, like,
Is that really true? So I'mtalking about verse 13, through
verse 16. I'll just read thisagain. Because it's been a while
since we read it. judge foryourselves. Is it proper for a
woman to pray to God with herhead uncovered? Does not the

(59:22):
very nature of things teach youthat if a man has long hair, it
is a disgrace to him. But if awoman has long hair, it is her
glory, for long hair is given toher as a covering. If anyone
wants to be contentious aboutthis, we have no other practice,
nor do the churches of God. Sookay, timeout. So, the very
nature of things, if we're goingto take this, as it is written,

(59:47):
is Paul saying, in nature,haven't you observed that women
have long hair and men haveshort hair? Isn't that the
natural thing that you'veobserved? And I mean, the
obvious answer is Well, yeah, ifyou go get your hair cut
consistently as a man, you goand have someone cut it off.
Otherwise, we got a bunch ofSamson's running around with

(01:00:09):
lots of long hair. So it doesn'tseem like that natural
observation comes by naturalmeans. And then he says,
basically, if you want to arguethis point, there is no other
practice. This is it. This isnot just what I'm telling you to
do. This is what is observedacross the board period in all
the churches. So are you aboutthat?

Jeanie Shaw (01:00:31):
Yeah, I'm thinking maybe that was in that other
letter. That we don't have?
Because honestly, I really, youknow, this is very confusing.
I'm not quite sure. The pointPaul is trying to make here. If
we are taking this literally,then women who have short hair,
you would not be reflecting whatis natural, you know, what does

(01:00:56):
that mean? Then if the you lookbetter with short hair, or you
are undergoing chemo, and youdon't have any hair? I don't
think we know what this means. Ithink we're missing some, some
pieces of the puzzle, becauseI've never heard an explanation
that is satisfying. You know,I've heard some people say, use

(01:01:17):
this to say, yes, women aresupposed to have long hair. And
men are supposed to gethaircuts. Is that really?

Travis Albritton (01:01:26):
How long is long enough? Yeah, exactly. What
does that mean?

Corina Espejo (01:01:30):
Yeah, it seems super far off from the
overarching theme of Jesus. It'slike, Huh, like, yeah, it seems
odd.

Travis Albritton (01:01:37):
Yeah, most Bible scholars attribute this to
Paul finding ways to emphasizethe points that were made
previously, which is sometimesmaddening part of his rhetorical
style, where he'll appeal tothings that are eternal, for
situations that are temporary,or circumstantial, or cultural.
And we just got to take that onboard is Yeah, sometimes Paul is

(01:01:59):
not being he's not speaking inthe direct fashion that we would
typically hope that he would.
And he's pulling all thesedifferent literary elements
together to communicatesomething that would make sense
to the Corinthians. That to us,is like reading Greek, quite
literally. So we've covered alot of ground Corina, do you
want to take an attempt atassembling some practical

(01:02:22):
takeaways, some things thatwe've learned, that we can build
on as we continue to movethrough the rest of Paul's
writings?

Corina Espejo (01:02:30):
I can I can give it a try, you'll probably have
to fill in some gaps. Yeah, Ithink for me, the first takeaway
is, as we read particularly thiskind of a passage where it seems
like we're missing some context.
Number one, it sounds like justbe very careful, like for me, my
my nature say, Okay, well, whatis the modern day equivalent of
the veil? Like, what does thatmean? And we may not know, and
it's okay to kind of move onfrom that. And stick to the

(01:02:54):
theme, the overarching themesthat we do know about this, this
text about the letter as awhole. There are other things
that we can gather, for example,again, we do need each other and
whether we're talking aboutauthority, or order, at the end
of the day, it seems like Paulwants to make sure we don't
forget that you know, this thisterm, all things are from God,

(01:03:18):
that not only do we need eachother, but we need God and a lot
of our unity and practices andthe way that we do things, it's
got to come back to that heart.
For me, those are my two majortakeaways. I'm sure there's so
many others, and it's hard whenyou know, you have a text where
you're not going to know whatwould the modern day and I think
even to about the long hair, andhow difficult that's going to be

(01:03:40):
nowadays for even like Asianswhere you know, the top knot
wasn't just a fashion statement,it might be a symbol of honor
and authority within a man for ahousehold or Maori people,
right, and Pacific Islanders.
And I think, what do they dowith that we don't have to know
because at the end of the day,we were not gonna know some of
these really difficult contexts.
So be patient, be patient withthe text. And don't be so quick

(01:04:03):
to pull from prescriptivepractices within the scriptures.
But stay true to the theme staytrue to the heart of God,

Travis Albritton (01:04:11):
I think that's spot on. And to contextualize
this for our own public worshipservices, or on Sunday services
where you know, we have threesongs and a welcome and then a
slow song message. And it's notthat I've never been to a
service before. It's it's veryclear that men and women were
both very active in these earlypublic assemblies. In the early

(01:04:31):
church, there was theexpectation that was the norm.
Okay, and so that shouldcontinue to be the norm. It
should continue to be the normthat men and women are singing
together, they're encouragingone another. They are lifting
each other up, they're sharingthe things that God has given
them to share. But doing itappropriately with respect and
humility, and not in adomineering fashion. And the
other thing to take on board toois we should be very careful

(01:04:54):
about putting too many of oureggs in this basket. of this is
what First Corinthians 11 saysso therefore, this is our
practice, we can certainly takea lot of clues from First
Corinthians 11. It's a veryimportant passage we tried to
understand answering thisquestion biblically. But let's

(01:05:15):
be very humble, and verycautious about over emphasizing
flavors of interpretations ofcertain words. and allowing that
to start dictating what we do,especially when those practices
go directly against what we seemodeled in Jesus. And in what we

(01:05:37):
know, our posture should be asdisciples of mutual submission
of love and kindness, andcompassion for one another, and
not seeking to dominate oneanother. One of the stories that
I think is a really good kind ofbow tie for this whole
conversation is as Jesus isgoing to the cross, and the

(01:05:59):
apostles are arguing about whois the best, who is the greatest
who is who is the leader of theapostles. And Jesus is like,
Guys, you've totally missed themark here. Don't be like the
world that says the person withthe most power is the most
important. Make sure that you'refocused on serving one another.

(01:06:19):
That's what matters. That's whata true leader is. Let's make
sure that any church practiceswe adopt is consistent with that
heart. And that's all I got.

Jeanie Shaw (01:06:30):
That's a great wrap up.

Travis Albritton (01:06:31):
I like that awesome. So again, our call to
action if you haven't yet, makesure you sign up for our
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future. We'll make sure you tuneback in next week. We're going

(01:06:55):
to continue our study of FirstCorinthians 14 as we continue to
move forward and learn moreabout what Paul has to offer
when it comes to answering thequestion. How do women and men
worship and serve together inthe kingdom of God