October 27, 2021 • 32 mins
In this episode, author and teacher Jeanie Shaw joins the podcast to break down 1 Corinthians 14 and help us understand why Paul is commanding some of the women in Corinth to be "silent" in the public assembly.
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Corina Espejo (00:01):
Welcome back to the women in the church podcast
where we take a fresh look aboutwhat the Bible has to say about
women in church for the ICC. Iam Karina Ismay. Whoa, taken a
go. Give it a go at this intro.
And of course with me, I haveTravis. Yes. Happy to be here.
And coming back to help usthrough some of our Meteor
scriptures is Jeannie SHA, ourcontender,
Jeanie Shaw (00:25):
great to be with you all, really.
Corina Espejo (00:28):
So we've been chatting through and you've been
with us as we've been talkingabout some of these New
Testament Scriptures from Romans16, to First Corinthians 11. And
we talked a little bit in ourlast episode about Corinth and
Ephesus, and just the churchthere, the new Greco Roman
woman, and even Paul's writingstyle. So for those of you who
(00:48):
haven't listened yet, please goback and listen to some of our
previous episodes, especiallythe last one. But definitely you
want to listen from thebeginning, it's a full thought.
We're talking about the fullnarrative, which I know you
talked about Gini, just reallylooking at the whole narrative
from Old Testament to NewTestament. So definitely go back
and listen, but we're gonna keepgoing, we're gonna move on to
(01:09):
First Corinthians 14. So can yougive us a snapshot? Just a
review, just a little taste ofthe background and themes of
First Corinthians?
Jeanie Shaw (01:19):
Oh, sure. Well, remembering that Corinth was a
bustling city, but much paganbackground, there'd been
previous worship of the goddessAphrodite, and she was not one
for purity, by any means. Therewere many temple prostitutes.
(01:41):
You know how active that stillwas. And when the Corinth Church
was established, we don't know.
But we do know, it was a cityfull of idols full of pagan
activities of all kinds. It wasactually one where,
interestingly, you know, Paulspent a good bit of time there,
and you think, uh, why would hespend much time there? Well, you
(02:03):
know, certainly it was one whereit was more liberal of a lot of
the cities and thus morewelcoming to leader of a new
religion. And he was moretolerated here actually, to
proselytize to the Jews and theGentiles. And that was a little
different from some of the moreconservative and rural places
(02:23):
where he was often thrown out oreven beaten or sent to jail.
Actually, in grant, the proconsole, Gallo legally approved
his proselytizing. And that waskind of amazing. So you know,
he, he actually spent some timeas a tentmaker. There, he had
some work to do there,obviously. And it was a place
(02:44):
perhaps a little more open toit. Paul has been giving some
correctives to the church inCorinth, especially about some
of the order of their worship.
But the teachings what he wasgetting at was a lot deeper than
that even I love in FirstCorinthians 14, Paul has just
(03:06):
finished writing his beautifuldescription of love, love being
patient and kind and not selfseeking. And then following the
way of love, He gives somefurther correctives to the
worship assembly. But I think asfar as background, we likely
underestimate the difference inwhat an assembly for worship
(03:28):
look like in Corinth. And whatwe encounter today in our
honestly very highly organizedservice well planned in advance
with few speakers. And just asimple reading of First
Corinthians 14 will show youvery quickly how different it
was. And, you know, just some ofthe background to earlier in the
letter in chapter 12. Of course,nothing was chaptered inversed.
(03:52):
In those days, it was just aletter. But earlier in the
letter Paul's reminded thechurch of their pagan days, when
they followed mute idols. Andyou know, then he says only the
Spirit enables people to confessJesus is Lord. And confessing
Jesus is Lord. And it's such ahistory of idolatry was crucial,
(04:15):
because they worshipped allkinds of gods. And Paul is
pointed to Jesus who is Lord ofall him. Paul then tells the
church, how each person hasdifferent gifts we see in
chapter 12, all are given by oneSpirit. And since all Christians
form one body and everyone'sgifts are needed, one gift is
(04:38):
not more important than another.
You know, he talks about howthere should be equal concern
for each other unity, notdivision, and views of one's
gifts is more important thananother's was causing division.
And then Paul talks about how nogift means anything. If there's
not love, that's the mostexcellent way There really seems
(04:58):
to me to be a bigger message inthis letter that rises above
even specific formulas forworship. And just a little
background, as I read some ofthe background, I can relate to
this a little too well, becausefor me, I feel like for a long
time, I focus too much on theparticulars above, being
(05:19):
transformed into the image ofChrist. And, you know, I don't
know about some of you there.
But I know by nature, noteverybody's like this. I'm a
rule follower. And I'm even anEnneagram. One, you know, my
first job in high school wasproofreading classified ads in
(05:41):
the town newspaper, I mean, youcan't get much more scrutinizing
of that, right. And honestly, Ifear I would make too good of a
Pharisee questioning Jesus is aheal on the Sabbath, or pick
rain with His disciples. Andthat makes me really sad. And
also so grateful that the more Istudy the Scriptures, the more I
(06:03):
come to know Jesus, and thateverything in them centers on
him. And I really believe in allthe background of what Paul's
writing here, the trajectory ofhis instructions, point his
hearers, to the heart of Jesus.
So that's a little bit of thebackground there, you know, in,
in this, we get to chapter 14,Paul calls the Corinthians to
(06:26):
eagerly desire the gifts of theSpirit, especially prophesy.
Though Paul spoke in tongues, hereminds that the way we interact
is to benefit others. And whenthere's no interpretation,
there's no edification foranyone else, just the
individual. And have a heartlike Jesus means we want to
(06:46):
excel in gifts that build up thechurch. Love isn't self seeking,
but putting others aboveourselves. And, you know, I know
this topic is not is on women inthe church, and the corrections
Paul gives to both men andwomen. And the purpose of the
attitude for order is needed. Asis told in the verses in First
(07:06):
Corinthians 14. Yeah, and I
Corina Espejo (07:11):
love that. And I think the the section we're
about to read and focus on likeyou mentioned, this is the women
in church podcast. So we'll kindof zoom in, but I thought that
was a great overview for us toremember what this passage sits
in just the letter as a wholeand the sentiment, what you're
touching on reminds me of verse26, it says, Well, my brothers
and sisters, let summarize whenyou meet together, one will sing
(07:32):
another will teach another willtell some special revelation God
is given, one will speak intongues, and another will
interpret what is said. Buteverything that is done must
strengthen all of you. So that'skind of that big picture. Yeah.
Well, I'm ready. Do you? Can weread the verse, the passages and
let's jump into it. Go for it.
Yes. All right. Well, let's diveinto our passage today, as it
(07:54):
sits in all of FirstCorinthians, but we're going to
go to First Corinthians 14,verse 24. But if all of you are
prophesying and unbelievers, orpeople who don't understand
these things come into yourmeeting, they will be convicted
of sin and judged by what yousay. As they listen their secret
thoughts will be exposed andthey will fall to their knees
and worship God declaring God istruly here among you. Well, my
(08:17):
brothers and sisters, letsummarise when you meet
together, one will sing anotherwill teach another rule, tell
some special revelation God hasgiven one will speak in tongues
another will interpret what issaid. But everything that is
done must strengthen all of youknow more than two or three
should speak in tongues, theymust speak at one at a time, and
someone must interpret what theysay. But if no one is present,
(08:39):
who can interpret they must besilent in your church meeting,
and speak in tongues to Godprivately. Let two or three
people prophesy and let theothers evaluate what is said.
But if someone is prophesying,and another person receives a
revelation from the Lord, theone who's speaking must stop. In
this way, all who prophesy willhave a turn to speak one after
the other so that everyone willlearn and be encouraged.
(09:02):
Remember that people whoprophesy are in control of their
spirit and can take turns? ForGod is not a God of disorder,
but of peace, as an all themeetings of God's holy people.
All right, verse 34. Womenshould be silent during the
church meetings, it is notproper for them to speak, they
should be submissive, just asthe law says if they have any
questions they should ask theirhusbands at home, for it is
(09:23):
improper for women to speak inchurch meetings? Or do you think
God's word originated with you,Corinthians? Are you the only
ones to whom it was given? Ifyou claim to be a prophet or
think you are spiritual, youshould recognize that what I am
saying is a command from theLord Himself. But if you do not
recognize this, you yourselfwill not be recognized. So let's
(09:44):
dive in. This is probably one ofthe more I'll say popular verses
passages that people always wantto know about. Why does Paul say
that women should remain silentduring public worship?
Jeanie Shaw (09:59):
You That is a very difficult question to answer
Zubin direct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Because what's interesting, ashe's just talked about ways that
men and women should conductthemselves as they're speaking.
And so there's something moregoing on than just taking these
(10:20):
couple of verses and saying,See, women aren't ever to say
anything in church, becausechapter 11, and verses and some
verses earlier that we justread, assume that women are
speaking, they are giving themwords and obstruction in the
(10:41):
church, I want to go back aminute to verse 24. Because the
topic is on women and men in thechurch and the correction Paul
gives to both of them. But thepurpose of the attitude and the
direction he's giving isexpressed. And I think we can
miss that. And before we talkabout just what this means, I
(11:04):
want to make sure we hit that,you know, again, Paul talks
about why prophesying is better,just because it benefits others.
If an unbeliever comes in duringprophesying, they're going to be
convicted of sin and fall downand worship God, exclaiming,
God's really among you. And Itry to stop and think about
that, what did that look like?
(11:26):
Where unbelievers would walk inand like fall on their knees and
say, God is here God is withyou. And somehow I don't think
just an order of a woman'ssaying something or not saying
something is going to be whatcauses an unbeliever to walk in
and say God is here. But there'ssomething incredible going on,
(11:51):
know that for an unbeliever tocome in while everyone is
prophesying and say God is here.
You know, I don't know what thatwould look like. Maybe it's good
to think about what that mightlook like for us today where it
would have such an impact. But,again, Paul assumes, you've just
asked the question about whydoes he say women should be
(12:11):
silent? You know, first, somebackground again, he assumes
that when the church comestogether, everybody contributes
Right. And, again, maybe we canrethink some of how we do church
so that everyone contributes.
Maybe that's another discussionfor another time. But whatever
(12:32):
happened in the assembly,something is present, something
is very visible, that shouldbring people to their knees,
that God is real. And worship isall about God. It's not about
people being competitive ortaking over or divisive in any
ways. But the Corinthian churchcontributed with helms words of
(12:53):
instruction, Revelations,tongues or interpretation. The
men and women both did this.
Again, in chapter 11, verse formfive, the women were prophesying
right. And so something aboutwhat he's saying to women, and
the silence he's asking for,apparently has to do with the
disorder and using spiritualgifts. That was an issue that
(13:16):
Paul needed to address thisspecifically in disorderly
speech. And so you know, this isa different from the the silence
that the word, the Greek wordthat used in First Timothy two,
that's more about an attitudinalsilence, the silence the word
mentioned in First Corinthians14 is actual not talking. And
(13:38):
so, again, there's somethingvery specific going on that
we're, I don't think we reallyknow, we don't know exactly what
law he's talking about. We don'treally know what the specific
issue was, seems like there wassomething that was causing
disgrace to husbands. Certainly,that was causing division and
(14:01):
disorder. But Paul needed toaddress with the men and the
women, the disorder and usingthe spiritual gifts, he gives us
instruction, that thereshouldn't be more than three
speakers at any time, men andwomen, and for them to speak one
at a time and with interpreterin verse 27. He says, If anyone,
(14:22):
and that anyone would beincluding men and women, If
anyone speaks in a tongue to andno more than three said, Speak,
and then he says all shouldprophesy in turn, so that
everyone may be instructed andencouraged. And again, remember,
that's a goal. His goal is thatGod will be glorified and that
(14:43):
the church will be instructedand encouraged. And again, this
is a service that looks verydifferent from the ones we're
used to today.
Corina Espejo (14:54):
So there seems to be a context here, but we're not
sure what it is. When you readverses 28 to 30. And it's hard,
because you're mentioning right?
There's no real context of whatwas happening, what the issue
was and why this was said. Butdo you get the impression that
this is absolute silence orcircumstantial? And you know
what I'm asking that, but you'vekind of already answered it.
(15:15):
Because we saw in FirstCorinthians 11, five, that women
spoke, they prophesied right insome way. We see it here, this
okay, if someone, right not if aman prophesied if somebody
prophesize quantitating, a manor a woman would do that. So, as
the last says, Let's maybe godown to that. So we're thinking
(15:36):
this is more circumstantial, butthen it says, as the law says,
so when we see that, what doesthat mean? What do you think
they're referencing there? Whichlaw? What are we talking about
here?
Jeanie Shaw (15:49):
You know, I have looked this up, studied it. And
I don't know that anybody has ananswer for that. It's not the,
you know, there's nothing thattalks about this in the Mosaic
Law. We don't know all the GrecoRoman laws. Some we do.
Certainly, there were householdcodes. In those household codes,
(16:13):
there were restrictions forwomen. But we don't know if this
is again, what that law isreferring to, and what it is,
they should be asking theirhusbands at home about now, we
also know that women weren'tgenerally educated. And we're
(16:34):
going to see, when we look atTimothy, there was a lot of
false teaching that happenedwith women. Now, this is a
different church, a differentsituation. And you know, there
was some silence thing thenbecause of false teaching that
was going on. But it seems likethis was more of a situation
where they were interrupting orcorrecting their, their husbands
(16:56):
and where it was disgraceful,but some kind of more of an
outburst, just disrespectful innature, but was certainly not
benefiting the order of thechurch, or just the whole Glory
to God. It was more, you know, alot of times when people are
interrupting, it's self focused.
It's not for the benefit ofothers. And so again, I think
(17:19):
the very fact that scholars havelooked at this passage for time
and time again, and don't reallyknow the answer to this
question. I've never readsomething that's the definitive
Oh, this is what this means.
Most scholars are convinced thatit does have some specific
(17:43):
situation in mind that Paul isdealing with, again, that, that
we don't know all theimplications of that. But yeah,
you know, it's just a reason whyI think because of this, we
can't base our whole theology onsomething that's so disputed.
And we're unsure of and why wehave to be so respectful of of
(18:09):
each other, and really try to,to figure what is the big
picture of what's going on, sothat we can try to gain unity as
much as possible and not justnitpick? Well, I know what means
this, or this means this or youknow, again, on first reading,
if you were just taking theliteral pattern mystic
(18:30):
hermeneutic, for this verse, youwould think there it is. Yeah,
women have to be silent in thechurch says it clearly. But what
do you do with the other thingsthat he's talked about? What do
you do with the instructions onwhat women are to do when they
aren't giving word ofinstructions and men are to do
(18:51):
when they're giving words ofinstructions when they're
singing when they're whenthey're praying? So we know from
that it has to be some specificsituation, it can't be the
overall thing because otherwise,you everything he is instructed
earlier in the letter andchapter 11. And what he's
already said, and assuming andthe earlier part of this
(19:12):
chapter, it doesn't really addup. It doesn't make sense.
Corina Espejo (19:16):
Yeah. I had a thought, as you were talking.
Was it customary in the templein the places of worship for
women to be there? Let's saybefore Jesus, was that customary
for women to be in those publicreadings as public assemblies
Jeanie Shaw (19:31):
in different places, there was it was more
customary than others. Andagain, it it started changing.
It seems like it was customaryhere because of the way that
they were talking about whatthey did together, for sure. On
some of the earlier Jewishsynagogues, there was a separate
place for the women. You know,again, that that very that
(19:51):
changed. There were nuances tothat.
Corina Espejo (19:54):
Yeah. And the reason I asked was I'm even
thinking about we talk about thestory of Mary and Martha and
it's like, hey, that's the Menare there to learn, you're here
to kind of do the rest of theseother things and leave that.
Leave that there. And she'ssaying, No, she's choosing to
learn from me. She's choosing tobe at my feet, and that's okay.
So my one thought was okay, Iwonder if there was an etiquette
(20:15):
right, that women may have hadto learn if this was a new place
for them while we're here, weget to be here. And they might
have to learn some etiquette,right? I wonder, too. Was it
customary even for the men toask questions in the middle of
things happening? I don't knowif that that question makes
sense. But was it typical andwasn't expected for the men to
(20:36):
be able to say, Hey, hold on asecond, I got a question. I need
to learn something and stopeverything happening?
Jeanie Shaw (20:42):
I don't know the answer to that question. But I
do know that they wereinterrupting each other here.
And that they were out of order,because of what what he was
speaking about. With that, youknow, it's interesting, I have,
within the past several years,even been in situations where
women, even in meetings, havebrought something up that maybe
(21:05):
was not popular, or maybe went alittle against the grain. And it
was discussed later, she needsto be kind of keep it under
control and and talk to herhusband about that at home. And
so I think it just shows thatthere has been a and again, I'm
not, yes, there are things wecan be disruptive and meetings
(21:30):
and, you know, still be out ofplace men and women, things that
are, you know, would be bettertalked about in another
situation. But I thinkthis has had deep implications
for a woman's place in theservice in the assembly to be
silent. And again, it is overthe years, even in restoration
(21:50):
history, it's taken manydifferent forms. You know, there
were times when, you know, womenwere able to speak and teach.
But as soon as they wereteaching a class and a boy
turned 12, then they weren'table to do that anymore, or a
dad couldn't come listen to hisdaughter give some kind of
(22:11):
instruction, or, you know, womencouldn't pray, and a mixed
group. And we see right afterJesus was resurrected, the men
and women went up to pray. Butit's been used for all kinds of
things, when, again, I thinkthat's where we try to find the
blueprint, or the pattern,instead of the bigger picture of
(22:34):
Jesus, and what what is it liketo be like Jesus knew Jesus was
more concerned about building upothers, he was concerned about
loving, about putting othersabove himself, he laid down his
life for them. And again, thiskind of behavior of
(22:55):
disruptiveness interrupting eachother, you know, my gift is more
important, what I have to say ismore important, it just doesn't
show the glory of God. We'veprobably been in situations
where we've tried to talk tosomeone and every second, you
know, they're interrupting withtheir opinion, or even
listening. It's just gatheringwhat they're gonna say next. And
(23:19):
you come away, not feeling veryloved. And I love the way Jesus
has so many interactions, youknow, he he heard, he looked at
people and loved them. He verycarefully listen to what they
said. They were saying he knewit was in their hearts. And he
(23:39):
always had just the rightresponse. And Paul, in all of
his letters, he's pointingpeople to be more like Jesus, to
be more Christ, like, in the waythat they're transformed. And
and that's one of my, I don'tknow, frustrations or fears is
that when we focus on thispattern, making sure we're you
(24:02):
know, it's like we're on atightrope, making sure we don't
step to the side of it. So manytimes we can be so focused on,
am I on the type of rather thanwho we're walking towards, and
whose arms are there to greet usand who's walking with us, and
can miss the transformation ofour hearts and our souls for
(24:24):
looking at the I don't know theletter of the law in some ways.
And by saying that, I thinkthese things are important. This
is the Word of God. So I don't,I don't want to take these
things lightly. It's important.
What Paul says is important,what the Word of God says. But
(24:46):
again, what is the heart thatthe Paul is trying to convey?
What is the specific situationthat he's dealing with, that
he's addressing and some ofthese things are because we
weren't there, we just have togather what we can. And people
(25:06):
will come to some differentviews on what happened. But I
think there are some things wecan be sure of. And that is that
women were participating inhymns, words of instruction, you
know, praying, the singing,interpreting tongues. And so I
don't know what it means thatwhat law he was talking about. I
(25:28):
don't know what was happening.
And I don't think any of us knowwhat was happening in those
interruptions as to why Paulsaid, Ask your husbands at home.
But we know that whatever washappening in the service, the
disorder was not honoring toGod, and it was something that
wasn't going to cause anyunbeliever to walk in and say,
God is here with them. Andthat's what I want my demeanor.
(25:53):
I want my participation in theworship, how I sing, how I pray,
how I talk, I want it to bewhere somebody say, God was
here. The focus was God. God washonored here. And I think that's
what Paul was concerned abouthere. God being honored.
Corina Espejo (26:18):
I mean, that makes sense. I think it's good.
When we look at these twoverses, what you're saying is,
okay, there is somethingcircumstantial, and we don't
know what it is. So this iswhere, you know, those who are
drawn to blueprint hermeneuticBe careful, right? Be careful
that we're not trying to drawtoo much of what to do and how
to imitate this church, when weactually don't know the context
(26:39):
that it sat in. And there aregoing to be pieces, that if
you're not careful, you're goingto be demanding something in
that public worship place that'snot consistent with other verses
and other commands that that'sin Scripture for women and for
men. So yeah, I think that makesa lot of sense. It's just, it's
just to be careful, right? Becareful and make sure that
(27:00):
you're staying true to the wholetheme and the full narrative of
what God is saying here. So oneother thing that that stands
out, and for those, you know,the single women, those young
women, people who are notmarried or even widows, they're
going to look at this, andthey're gonna say, okay, yeah,
especially for me, what do I dowith this? I'm not married,
right? Is there something therefor them to take away? Because,
(27:23):
you know, again, they're notmarried, so it can feel like
this has nothing to do with me.
Like I think about scripturesthat have to do with
circumcision. I think this isnot for me, that has nothing to
do with me. This is not adecision to be circumcised or
uncircumcised. It's skip rightover it right. But then miss,
you know, some of the heart ofwhat it's saying. Do you have
any any word or thoughts forthose women?
Jeanie Shaw (27:45):
Well, again, I think because there's something
specific where they'redisgracing. It seems like their
husbands by what they're doing,hey, I don't have to worry about
that one. But I think what wecan all take away is that
whatever we do you in theworship is to glorify God, and
(28:07):
to not push our own agenda, ourown self focus, and to put
others before ourselves. And,wow, if we did that, when we
came to worship, if we came toworship with all my art, I'm
going to glorify God, and mysinging with all my heart, I'm
going to seek to build othersup. I'm going to consider how to
(28:31):
stir others to love and gooddeeds, I'm going to use the
gifts that God has given me andnot suppress them so that I can
build up the body of Christ.
Everybody, men, women, singlemarried, has gifts given them by
God specifically for thebuilding up of the Body of
Christ. And again, whether we'resingle or married, whether we're
(28:54):
male or female, I think usingthem Paul's directive here would
be very clear use them to buildothers up, use them to encourage
others use them to the glory ofGod. And when we do that, people
are going to see something.
That's not the norm. They'regonna see Whoa, God, this is
(29:16):
different. God is here.
Corina Espejo (29:18):
You have anything to add Travis before we jump
into our takeaways?
Travis Albritton (29:22):
No, no, this is great. This is really great.
It was wonderful getting to siton the sidelines and we hope
Corina Espejo (29:28):
and those of you Yes, yes. Yeah, everybody we
praying for Travis hopefully bythe time this this gets
published, Travis will be fullyrecovered. But say a little
prayer for Travis. This stomach.
Yes.
Jeanie Shaw (29:41):
Yeah. Oh, I have to tell you a little story on this.
I had to stop. I was laughing alittle bit during this podcast
because port Travis he's sickand still doing this and was
trying to get some nutritionfrom a popsicle, and I thought
he was eating a hot dog.
Corina Espejo (29:59):
It looks like our Raw hot dog looks like a raw hot
dog
Jeanie Shaw (30:03):
making me feel sick. I love it. We're glad it
was a popsicle. Travis. Yes,yes,
Corina Espejo (30:10):
it was a very look. After we know that, yeah.
Well, I've enjoyed this not justthe funny moments of popsicle
versus hot dog. But I think thisis a really, really meaty
scripture. And I like just beingable to say, Okay, wait a
minute, let's come back to thetheme. Let's make sure whatever
you read, whatever we pullwhatever practicals or doctrine
(30:31):
we pull that it stays to theheart of what we're seeing, at
least within the letter, but ofcourse, within the Bible
narrative as a whole. So for mesome takeaways, and hopefully,
this is going to be encouragingno matter who you are single,
married male, female, Ihopefully it'll be encouraging
no matter what. What I'm seeingin First Corinthians 14, it's
(30:54):
really about offering a place ofworship, where everybody can be
strengthened. And that's goingto require a bit of peace in
order. Our teens, they say, youknow, don't get lost in the
sauce, right? You need a littlebit of that peace in order. So
people don't get lost in thesauce. Because ultimately, you
want them to focus on God, youwant a place where they can
focus on God, and not on us noton, you know what we're saying?
(31:17):
Or our learning or what we'veour questions. No, no, keep the
peace. Keep the order so thatthe people who come in can focus
on God, which, hey, I think Ican do that I can try and do
that. Help our worship services,right, help our time together.
Be a place where people canthink about Christ. Well, thank
(31:38):
you, Jeannie. Thank you so much.
And for those of you who arelistening again, go back to
previous episodes. These chunksthat were biting off they build
so you've got to be able to goback and definitely go to women
church podcast.com for thenewsletter, I can't wait to see
you all next time.
Welcome back to the women in the church podcast
where we take a fresh look aboutwhat the Bible has to say about
women in church for the ICC. Iam Karina Ismay. Whoa, taken a
go. Give it a go at this intro.
And of course with me, I haveTravis. Yes. Happy to be here.
And coming back to help usthrough some of our Meteor
scriptures is Jeannie SHA, ourcontender,
Jeanie Shaw (00:25):
great to be with you all, really.
Corina Espejo (00:28):
So we've been chatting through and you've been
with us as we've been talkingabout some of these New
Testament Scriptures from Romans16, to First Corinthians 11. And
we talked a little bit in ourlast episode about Corinth and
Ephesus, and just the churchthere, the new Greco Roman
woman, and even Paul's writingstyle. So for those of you who
(00:48):
haven't listened yet, please goback and listen to some of our
previous episodes, especiallythe last one. But definitely you
want to listen from thebeginning, it's a full thought.
We're talking about the fullnarrative, which I know you
talked about Gini, just reallylooking at the whole narrative
from Old Testament to NewTestament. So definitely go back
and listen, but we're gonna keepgoing, we're gonna move on to
(01:09):
First Corinthians 14. So can yougive us a snapshot? Just a
review, just a little taste ofthe background and themes of
First Corinthians?
Jeanie Shaw (01:19):
Oh, sure. Well, remembering that Corinth was a
bustling city, but much paganbackground, there'd been
previous worship of the goddessAphrodite, and she was not one
for purity, by any means. Therewere many temple prostitutes.
(01:41):
You know how active that stillwas. And when the Corinth Church
was established, we don't know.
But we do know, it was a cityfull of idols full of pagan
activities of all kinds. It wasactually one where,
interestingly, you know, Paulspent a good bit of time there,
and you think, uh, why would hespend much time there? Well, you
(02:03):
know, certainly it was one whereit was more liberal of a lot of
the cities and thus morewelcoming to leader of a new
religion. And he was moretolerated here actually, to
proselytize to the Jews and theGentiles. And that was a little
different from some of the moreconservative and rural places
(02:23):
where he was often thrown out oreven beaten or sent to jail.
Actually, in grant, the proconsole, Gallo legally approved
his proselytizing. And that waskind of amazing. So you know,
he, he actually spent some timeas a tentmaker. There, he had
some work to do there,obviously. And it was a place
(02:44):
perhaps a little more open toit. Paul has been giving some
correctives to the church inCorinth, especially about some
of the order of their worship.
But the teachings what he wasgetting at was a lot deeper than
that even I love in FirstCorinthians 14, Paul has just
(03:06):
finished writing his beautifuldescription of love, love being
patient and kind and not selfseeking. And then following the
way of love, He gives somefurther correctives to the
worship assembly. But I think asfar as background, we likely
underestimate the difference inwhat an assembly for worship
(03:28):
look like in Corinth. And whatwe encounter today in our
honestly very highly organizedservice well planned in advance
with few speakers. And just asimple reading of First
Corinthians 14 will show youvery quickly how different it
was. And, you know, just some ofthe background to earlier in the
letter in chapter 12. Of course,nothing was chaptered inversed.
(03:52):
In those days, it was just aletter. But earlier in the
letter Paul's reminded thechurch of their pagan days, when
they followed mute idols. Andyou know, then he says only the
Spirit enables people to confessJesus is Lord. And confessing
Jesus is Lord. And it's such ahistory of idolatry was crucial,
(04:15):
because they worshipped allkinds of gods. And Paul is
pointed to Jesus who is Lord ofall him. Paul then tells the
church, how each person hasdifferent gifts we see in
chapter 12, all are given by oneSpirit. And since all Christians
form one body and everyone'sgifts are needed, one gift is
(04:38):
not more important than another.
You know, he talks about howthere should be equal concern
for each other unity, notdivision, and views of one's
gifts is more important thananother's was causing division.
And then Paul talks about how nogift means anything. If there's
not love, that's the mostexcellent way There really seems
(04:58):
to me to be a bigger message inthis letter that rises above
even specific formulas forworship. And just a little
background, as I read some ofthe background, I can relate to
this a little too well, becausefor me, I feel like for a long
time, I focus too much on theparticulars above, being
(05:19):
transformed into the image ofChrist. And, you know, I don't
know about some of you there.
But I know by nature, noteverybody's like this. I'm a
rule follower. And I'm even anEnneagram. One, you know, my
first job in high school wasproofreading classified ads in
(05:41):
the town newspaper, I mean, youcan't get much more scrutinizing
of that, right. And honestly, Ifear I would make too good of a
Pharisee questioning Jesus is aheal on the Sabbath, or pick
rain with His disciples. Andthat makes me really sad. And
also so grateful that the more Istudy the Scriptures, the more I
(06:03):
come to know Jesus, and thateverything in them centers on
him. And I really believe in allthe background of what Paul's
writing here, the trajectory ofhis instructions, point his
hearers, to the heart of Jesus.
So that's a little bit of thebackground there, you know, in,
in this, we get to chapter 14,Paul calls the Corinthians to
(06:26):
eagerly desire the gifts of theSpirit, especially prophesy.
Though Paul spoke in tongues, hereminds that the way we interact
is to benefit others. And whenthere's no interpretation,
there's no edification foranyone else, just the
individual. And have a heartlike Jesus means we want to
(06:46):
excel in gifts that build up thechurch. Love isn't self seeking,
but putting others aboveourselves. And, you know, I know
this topic is not is on women inthe church, and the corrections
Paul gives to both men andwomen. And the purpose of the
attitude for order is needed. Asis told in the verses in First
(07:06):
Corinthians 14. Yeah, and I
Corina Espejo (07:11):
love that. And I think the the section we're
about to read and focus on likeyou mentioned, this is the women
in church podcast. So we'll kindof zoom in, but I thought that
was a great overview for us toremember what this passage sits
in just the letter as a wholeand the sentiment, what you're
touching on reminds me of verse26, it says, Well, my brothers
and sisters, let summarize whenyou meet together, one will sing
(07:32):
another will teach another willtell some special revelation God
is given, one will speak intongues, and another will
interpret what is said. Buteverything that is done must
strengthen all of you. So that'skind of that big picture. Yeah.
Well, I'm ready. Do you? Can weread the verse, the passages and
let's jump into it. Go for it.
Yes. All right. Well, let's diveinto our passage today, as it
(07:54):
sits in all of FirstCorinthians, but we're going to
go to First Corinthians 14,verse 24. But if all of you are
prophesying and unbelievers, orpeople who don't understand
these things come into yourmeeting, they will be convicted
of sin and judged by what yousay. As they listen their secret
thoughts will be exposed andthey will fall to their knees
and worship God declaring God istruly here among you. Well, my
(08:17):
brothers and sisters, letsummarise when you meet
together, one will sing anotherwill teach another rule, tell
some special revelation God hasgiven one will speak in tongues
another will interpret what issaid. But everything that is
done must strengthen all of youknow more than two or three
should speak in tongues, theymust speak at one at a time, and
someone must interpret what theysay. But if no one is present,
(08:39):
who can interpret they must besilent in your church meeting,
and speak in tongues to Godprivately. Let two or three
people prophesy and let theothers evaluate what is said.
But if someone is prophesying,and another person receives a
revelation from the Lord, theone who's speaking must stop. In
this way, all who prophesy willhave a turn to speak one after
the other so that everyone willlearn and be encouraged.
(09:02):
Remember that people whoprophesy are in control of their
spirit and can take turns? ForGod is not a God of disorder,
but of peace, as an all themeetings of God's holy people.
All right, verse 34. Womenshould be silent during the
church meetings, it is notproper for them to speak, they
should be submissive, just asthe law says if they have any
questions they should ask theirhusbands at home, for it is
(09:23):
improper for women to speak inchurch meetings? Or do you think
God's word originated with you,Corinthians? Are you the only
ones to whom it was given? Ifyou claim to be a prophet or
think you are spiritual, youshould recognize that what I am
saying is a command from theLord Himself. But if you do not
recognize this, you yourselfwill not be recognized. So let's
(09:44):
dive in. This is probably one ofthe more I'll say popular verses
passages that people always wantto know about. Why does Paul say
that women should remain silentduring public worship?
Jeanie Shaw (09:59):
You That is a very difficult question to answer
Zubin direct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Because what's interesting, ashe's just talked about ways that
men and women should conductthemselves as they're speaking.
And so there's something moregoing on than just taking these
(10:20):
couple of verses and saying,See, women aren't ever to say
anything in church, becausechapter 11, and verses and some
verses earlier that we justread, assume that women are
speaking, they are giving themwords and obstruction in the
(10:41):
church, I want to go back aminute to verse 24. Because the
topic is on women and men in thechurch and the correction Paul
gives to both of them. But thepurpose of the attitude and the
direction he's giving isexpressed. And I think we can
miss that. And before we talkabout just what this means, I
(11:04):
want to make sure we hit that,you know, again, Paul talks
about why prophesying is better,just because it benefits others.
If an unbeliever comes in duringprophesying, they're going to be
convicted of sin and fall downand worship God, exclaiming,
God's really among you. And Itry to stop and think about
that, what did that look like?
(11:26):
Where unbelievers would walk inand like fall on their knees and
say, God is here God is withyou. And somehow I don't think
just an order of a woman'ssaying something or not saying
something is going to be whatcauses an unbeliever to walk in
and say God is here. But there'ssomething incredible going on,
(11:51):
know that for an unbeliever tocome in while everyone is
prophesying and say God is here.
You know, I don't know what thatwould look like. Maybe it's good
to think about what that mightlook like for us today where it
would have such an impact. But,again, Paul assumes, you've just
asked the question about whydoes he say women should be
(12:11):
silent? You know, first, somebackground again, he assumes
that when the church comestogether, everybody contributes
Right. And, again, maybe we canrethink some of how we do church
so that everyone contributes.
Maybe that's another discussionfor another time. But whatever
(12:32):
happened in the assembly,something is present, something
is very visible, that shouldbring people to their knees,
that God is real. And worship isall about God. It's not about
people being competitive ortaking over or divisive in any
ways. But the Corinthian churchcontributed with helms words of
(12:53):
instruction, Revelations,tongues or interpretation. The
men and women both did this.
Again, in chapter 11, verse formfive, the women were prophesying
right. And so something aboutwhat he's saying to women, and
the silence he's asking for,apparently has to do with the
disorder and using spiritualgifts. That was an issue that
(13:16):
Paul needed to address thisspecifically in disorderly
speech. And so you know, this isa different from the the silence
that the word, the Greek wordthat used in First Timothy two,
that's more about an attitudinalsilence, the silence the word
mentioned in First Corinthians14 is actual not talking. And
(13:38):
so, again, there's somethingvery specific going on that
we're, I don't think we reallyknow, we don't know exactly what
law he's talking about. We don'treally know what the specific
issue was, seems like there wassomething that was causing
disgrace to husbands. Certainly,that was causing division and
(14:01):
disorder. But Paul needed toaddress with the men and the
women, the disorder and usingthe spiritual gifts, he gives us
instruction, that thereshouldn't be more than three
speakers at any time, men andwomen, and for them to speak one
at a time and with interpreterin verse 27. He says, If anyone,
(14:22):
and that anyone would beincluding men and women, If
anyone speaks in a tongue to andno more than three said, Speak,
and then he says all shouldprophesy in turn, so that
everyone may be instructed andencouraged. And again, remember,
that's a goal. His goal is thatGod will be glorified and that
(14:43):
the church will be instructedand encouraged. And again, this
is a service that looks verydifferent from the ones we're
used to today.
Corina Espejo (14:54):
So there seems to be a context here, but we're not
sure what it is. When you readverses 28 to 30. And it's hard,
because you're mentioning right?
There's no real context of whatwas happening, what the issue
was and why this was said. Butdo you get the impression that
this is absolute silence orcircumstantial? And you know
what I'm asking that, but you'vekind of already answered it.
(15:15):
Because we saw in FirstCorinthians 11, five, that women
spoke, they prophesied right insome way. We see it here, this
okay, if someone, right not if aman prophesied if somebody
prophesize quantitating, a manor a woman would do that. So, as
the last says, Let's maybe godown to that. So we're thinking
(15:36):
this is more circumstantial, butthen it says, as the law says,
so when we see that, what doesthat mean? What do you think
they're referencing there? Whichlaw? What are we talking about
here?
Jeanie Shaw (15:49):
You know, I have looked this up, studied it. And
I don't know that anybody has ananswer for that. It's not the,
you know, there's nothing thattalks about this in the Mosaic
Law. We don't know all the GrecoRoman laws. Some we do.
Certainly, there were householdcodes. In those household codes,
(16:13):
there were restrictions forwomen. But we don't know if this
is again, what that law isreferring to, and what it is,
they should be asking theirhusbands at home about now, we
also know that women weren'tgenerally educated. And we're
(16:34):
going to see, when we look atTimothy, there was a lot of
false teaching that happenedwith women. Now, this is a
different church, a differentsituation. And you know, there
was some silence thing thenbecause of false teaching that
was going on. But it seems likethis was more of a situation
where they were interrupting orcorrecting their, their husbands
(16:56):
and where it was disgraceful,but some kind of more of an
outburst, just disrespectful innature, but was certainly not
benefiting the order of thechurch, or just the whole Glory
to God. It was more, you know, alot of times when people are
interrupting, it's self focused.
It's not for the benefit ofothers. And so again, I think
(17:19):
the very fact that scholars havelooked at this passage for time
and time again, and don't reallyknow the answer to this
question. I've never readsomething that's the definitive
Oh, this is what this means.
Most scholars are convinced thatit does have some specific
(17:43):
situation in mind that Paul isdealing with, again, that, that
we don't know all theimplications of that. But yeah,
you know, it's just a reason whyI think because of this, we
can't base our whole theology onsomething that's so disputed.
And we're unsure of and why wehave to be so respectful of of
(18:09):
each other, and really try to,to figure what is the big
picture of what's going on, sothat we can try to gain unity as
much as possible and not justnitpick? Well, I know what means
this, or this means this or youknow, again, on first reading,
if you were just taking theliteral pattern mystic
(18:30):
hermeneutic, for this verse, youwould think there it is. Yeah,
women have to be silent in thechurch says it clearly. But what
do you do with the other thingsthat he's talked about? What do
you do with the instructions onwhat women are to do when they
aren't giving word ofinstructions and men are to do
(18:51):
when they're giving words ofinstructions when they're
singing when they're whenthey're praying? So we know from
that it has to be some specificsituation, it can't be the
overall thing because otherwise,you everything he is instructed
earlier in the letter andchapter 11. And what he's
already said, and assuming andthe earlier part of this
(19:12):
chapter, it doesn't really addup. It doesn't make sense.
Corina Espejo (19:16):
Yeah. I had a thought, as you were talking.
Was it customary in the templein the places of worship for
women to be there? Let's saybefore Jesus, was that customary
for women to be in those publicreadings as public assemblies
Jeanie Shaw (19:31):
in different places, there was it was more
customary than others. Andagain, it it started changing.
It seems like it was customaryhere because of the way that
they were talking about whatthey did together, for sure. On
some of the earlier Jewishsynagogues, there was a separate
place for the women. You know,again, that that very that
(19:51):
changed. There were nuances tothat.
Corina Espejo (19:54):
Yeah. And the reason I asked was I'm even
thinking about we talk about thestory of Mary and Martha and
it's like, hey, that's the Menare there to learn, you're here
to kind of do the rest of theseother things and leave that.
Leave that there. And she'ssaying, No, she's choosing to
learn from me. She's choosing tobe at my feet, and that's okay.
So my one thought was okay, Iwonder if there was an etiquette
(20:15):
right, that women may have hadto learn if this was a new place
for them while we're here, weget to be here. And they might
have to learn some etiquette,right? I wonder, too. Was it
customary even for the men toask questions in the middle of
things happening? I don't knowif that that question makes
sense. But was it typical andwasn't expected for the men to
(20:36):
be able to say, Hey, hold on asecond, I got a question. I need
to learn something and stopeverything happening?
Jeanie Shaw (20:42):
I don't know the answer to that question. But I
do know that they wereinterrupting each other here.
And that they were out of order,because of what what he was
speaking about. With that, youknow, it's interesting, I have,
within the past several years,even been in situations where
women, even in meetings, havebrought something up that maybe
(21:05):
was not popular, or maybe went alittle against the grain. And it
was discussed later, she needsto be kind of keep it under
control and and talk to herhusband about that at home. And
so I think it just shows thatthere has been a and again, I'm
not, yes, there are things wecan be disruptive and meetings
(21:30):
and, you know, still be out ofplace men and women, things that
are, you know, would be bettertalked about in another
situation. But I thinkthis has had deep implications
for a woman's place in theservice in the assembly to be
silent. And again, it is overthe years, even in restoration
(21:50):
history, it's taken manydifferent forms. You know, there
were times when, you know, womenwere able to speak and teach.
But as soon as they wereteaching a class and a boy
turned 12, then they weren'table to do that anymore, or a
dad couldn't come listen to hisdaughter give some kind of
(22:11):
instruction, or, you know, womencouldn't pray, and a mixed
group. And we see right afterJesus was resurrected, the men
and women went up to pray. Butit's been used for all kinds of
things, when, again, I thinkthat's where we try to find the
blueprint, or the pattern,instead of the bigger picture of
(22:34):
Jesus, and what what is it liketo be like Jesus knew Jesus was
more concerned about building upothers, he was concerned about
loving, about putting othersabove himself, he laid down his
life for them. And again, thiskind of behavior of
(22:55):
disruptiveness interrupting eachother, you know, my gift is more
important, what I have to say ismore important, it just doesn't
show the glory of God. We'veprobably been in situations
where we've tried to talk tosomeone and every second, you
know, they're interrupting withtheir opinion, or even
listening. It's just gatheringwhat they're gonna say next. And
(23:19):
you come away, not feeling veryloved. And I love the way Jesus
has so many interactions, youknow, he he heard, he looked at
people and loved them. He verycarefully listen to what they
said. They were saying he knewit was in their hearts. And he
(23:39):
always had just the rightresponse. And Paul, in all of
his letters, he's pointingpeople to be more like Jesus, to
be more Christ, like, in the waythat they're transformed. And
and that's one of my, I don'tknow, frustrations or fears is
that when we focus on thispattern, making sure we're you
(24:02):
know, it's like we're on atightrope, making sure we don't
step to the side of it. So manytimes we can be so focused on,
am I on the type of rather thanwho we're walking towards, and
whose arms are there to greet usand who's walking with us, and
can miss the transformation ofour hearts and our souls for
(24:24):
looking at the I don't know theletter of the law in some ways.
And by saying that, I thinkthese things are important. This
is the Word of God. So I don't,I don't want to take these
things lightly. It's important.
What Paul says is important,what the Word of God says. But
(24:46):
again, what is the heart thatthe Paul is trying to convey?
What is the specific situationthat he's dealing with, that
he's addressing and some ofthese things are because we
weren't there, we just have togather what we can. And people
(25:06):
will come to some differentviews on what happened. But I
think there are some things wecan be sure of. And that is that
women were participating inhymns, words of instruction, you
know, praying, the singing,interpreting tongues. And so I
don't know what it means thatwhat law he was talking about. I
(25:28):
don't know what was happening.
And I don't think any of us knowwhat was happening in those
interruptions as to why Paulsaid, Ask your husbands at home.
But we know that whatever washappening in the service, the
disorder was not honoring toGod, and it was something that
wasn't going to cause anyunbeliever to walk in and say,
God is here with them. Andthat's what I want my demeanor.
(25:53):
I want my participation in theworship, how I sing, how I pray,
how I talk, I want it to bewhere somebody say, God was
here. The focus was God. God washonored here. And I think that's
what Paul was concerned abouthere. God being honored.
Corina Espejo (26:18):
I mean, that makes sense. I think it's good.
When we look at these twoverses, what you're saying is,
okay, there is somethingcircumstantial, and we don't
know what it is. So this iswhere, you know, those who are
drawn to blueprint hermeneuticBe careful, right? Be careful
that we're not trying to drawtoo much of what to do and how
to imitate this church, when weactually don't know the context
(26:39):
that it sat in. And there aregoing to be pieces, that if
you're not careful, you're goingto be demanding something in
that public worship place that'snot consistent with other verses
and other commands that that'sin Scripture for women and for
men. So yeah, I think that makesa lot of sense. It's just, it's
just to be careful, right? Becareful and make sure that
(27:00):
you're staying true to the wholetheme and the full narrative of
what God is saying here. So oneother thing that that stands
out, and for those, you know,the single women, those young
women, people who are notmarried or even widows, they're
going to look at this, andthey're gonna say, okay, yeah,
especially for me, what do I dowith this? I'm not married,
right? Is there something therefor them to take away? Because,
(27:23):
you know, again, they're notmarried, so it can feel like
this has nothing to do with me.
Like I think about scripturesthat have to do with
circumcision. I think this isnot for me, that has nothing to
do with me. This is not adecision to be circumcised or
uncircumcised. It's skip rightover it right. But then miss,
you know, some of the heart ofwhat it's saying. Do you have
any any word or thoughts forthose women?
Jeanie Shaw (27:45):
Well, again, I think because there's something
specific where they'redisgracing. It seems like their
husbands by what they're doing,hey, I don't have to worry about
that one. But I think what wecan all take away is that
whatever we do you in theworship is to glorify God, and
(28:07):
to not push our own agenda, ourown self focus, and to put
others before ourselves. And,wow, if we did that, when we
came to worship, if we came toworship with all my art, I'm
going to glorify God, and mysinging with all my heart, I'm
going to seek to build othersup. I'm going to consider how to
(28:31):
stir others to love and gooddeeds, I'm going to use the
gifts that God has given me andnot suppress them so that I can
build up the body of Christ.
Everybody, men, women, singlemarried, has gifts given them by
God specifically for thebuilding up of the Body of
Christ. And again, whether we'resingle or married, whether we're
(28:54):
male or female, I think usingthem Paul's directive here would
be very clear use them to buildothers up, use them to encourage
others use them to the glory ofGod. And when we do that, people
are going to see something.
That's not the norm. They'regonna see Whoa, God, this is
(29:16):
different. God is here.
Corina Espejo (29:18):
You have anything to add Travis before we jump
into our takeaways?
Travis Albritton (29:22):
No, no, this is great. This is really great.
It was wonderful getting to siton the sidelines and we hope
Corina Espejo (29:28):
and those of you Yes, yes. Yeah, everybody we
praying for Travis hopefully bythe time this this gets
published, Travis will be fullyrecovered. But say a little
prayer for Travis. This stomach.
Yes.
Jeanie Shaw (29:41):
Yeah. Oh, I have to tell you a little story on this.
I had to stop. I was laughing alittle bit during this podcast
because port Travis he's sickand still doing this and was
trying to get some nutritionfrom a popsicle, and I thought
he was eating a hot dog.
Corina Espejo (29:59):
It looks like our Raw hot dog looks like a raw hot
dog
Jeanie Shaw (30:03):
making me feel sick. I love it. We're glad it
was a popsicle. Travis. Yes,yes,
Corina Espejo (30:10):
it was a very look. After we know that, yeah.
Well, I've enjoyed this not justthe funny moments of popsicle
versus hot dog. But I think thisis a really, really meaty
scripture. And I like just beingable to say, Okay, wait a
minute, let's come back to thetheme. Let's make sure whatever
you read, whatever we pullwhatever practicals or doctrine
(30:31):
we pull that it stays to theheart of what we're seeing, at
least within the letter, but ofcourse, within the Bible
narrative as a whole. So for mesome takeaways, and hopefully,
this is going to be encouragingno matter who you are single,
married male, female, Ihopefully it'll be encouraging
no matter what. What I'm seeingin First Corinthians 14, it's
(30:54):
really about offering a place ofworship, where everybody can be
strengthened. And that's goingto require a bit of peace in
order. Our teens, they say, youknow, don't get lost in the
sauce, right? You need a littlebit of that peace in order. So
people don't get lost in thesauce. Because ultimately, you
want them to focus on God, youwant a place where they can
focus on God, and not on us noton, you know what we're saying?
(31:17):
Or our learning or what we'veour questions. No, no, keep the
peace. Keep the order so thatthe people who come in can focus
on God, which, hey, I think Ican do that I can try and do
that. Help our worship services,right, help our time together.
Be a place where people canthink about Christ. Well, thank
(31:38):
you, Jeannie. Thank you so much.
And for those of you who arelistening again, go back to
previous episodes. These chunksthat were biting off they build
so you've got to be able to goback and definitely go to women
church podcast.com for thenewsletter, I can't wait to see
you all next time.
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