July 26, 2024 • 45 mins
From Dreams to Leadership: A Journey of Passion and Resilience
Ann Buller, President Emeritus of Centennial College, is a visionary leader renowned for embedding equity and social justice principles into the college's programs and operations. Assuming the presidency in 2004, Ann spearheaded various innovative mentoring and outreach initiatives that transformed Centennial into a beacon of inclusive and responsive education. Her leadership catalyzed major transformative changes, particularly in the areas of leadership development and global citizenship education. Under her guidance, Centennial’s internationalization efforts received numerous accolades, and she introduced award-winning programs supporting underrepresented students, including those from underserved neighbourhoods, students with learning disabilities, and first-generation college students.
Ann Buller’s impact extends beyond Centennial College through her work as a keynote speaker and faculty member at the National Executive Leadership Institute. She has served as the Board Chair of the Canadian Bureau for International Education and Colleges and Institutes Canada and sits on several influential boards. Her contributions to postsecondary education have been recognized with prestigious awards such as the World Federation of Colleges and Polytechnics Leadership Award and the Top 100 Most Powerful Women Award. Ann’s dedication to education and social inclusion recently earned her the Order of Canada, highlighting her lifelong commitment to improving lives through learning. She holds a diploma in Public Relations from Humber College, a Bachelor of Arts in Sociology from York University, and a Master of Arts in Education from Central Michigan University.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:55):
Music.
How's your morning so far? Good? I have been actually reviewing scholarship
applications, so I'm getting to see all these incredible stories of resilience
and leadership and passion.
Yeah, it's been a pretty good morning so far, I have to say.
(01:17):
That's amazing. So why don't we get started?
I'd love to know, when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?
So that depended a little bit on the day of the week. Okay.
Like many little girls, I wanted to be a teacher and a nurse.
And then at some point, I decided I wanted to be an astronaut.
(01:40):
But since I got motion sickness in the back of a car, it's probably good that
I didn't go in that direction.
Probably as I got into my teens and a little bit older, I knew two things about
myself. One was I like to write and use that writing as a way to persuade, to engage.
(02:01):
And as my parents would have told you, I liked a good argument.
So lawyer, briefly, you know, I considered law.
But there was something about, I didn't recognize it then as leadership,
but that's what it was, wanting to see change, wanting to sort of champion the
(02:21):
underdog, wanting to be a part of doing things better and differently.
And so that kind of led me into what I thought I was going to do,
which was public relations for a not-for-profit.
I just thought getting messages out, crafting drafting them,
the plans, the events, that all sounded like me.
And I studied public relations at a college.
(02:42):
But when I graduated, it wasn't a great time for jobs.
And I had done my internship, my final one, with the Student Association and
the Student Life Department at Humber College, where I was studying.
And I saw that the leadership part of me, that we had real opportunity to,
rather than just let these student leaders be elected and fumble their way through,
(03:04):
but really to construct some leadership pieces.
And so that kind of started it. My very first job was doing student government
leadership development conferences nationally, and it was a great launching
pad. Wow, that's amazing.
And so did you always have that inner feeling that you were meant to do something
important, like that your work needed to mean something to you versus just being a job? No.
(03:30):
Yes, I have always been kind of mission and passion driven.
I like to say to my students, I express it this way. I love shoes.
I'm never going to work for a shoe company.
So it has to be something for me that really did have meaning.
And probably my younger self, I just knew I was always wanting to make things
better for the people around me.
(03:51):
But again, wouldn't have necessarily said that made me a leader,
just that it made me passionate.
And actually, throughout my career, if I ever felt like I was losing that,
you know, if getting out of bed in the morning was a struggle,
then I knew it was time to move on to try something new.
So, yeah, I'm very passion and mission driven.
And that says a lot about the college then. You found that passion every single day.
(04:16):
You know, before we get into talking about that, how did you evolve into where you are today?
So it's quite an interesting journey. As I said, my first job out of college
was doing the student government leadership development.
And I became so interested in trying to support these students who have,
(04:36):
you know, in some cases, millions of dollars of budget, really get the most experience out of it.
Doing the most for the students that they serve, but also getting a rewarding
experience for themselves.
That led me, my very first job at Centennial was as a recruitment officer.
Professor and I was connected there with
recruitment and admissions and with marketing and
(04:56):
so again getting to craft those messages but because
I was in so many schools I also saw right in
front of me what the barriers were to education and I was the first in my family
to go to post-secondary so I kind of that that became a little bit of my passion
was to help more who were the first in their family to attend to get into it
(05:17):
so from there I ended up leading that department.
And then I had an opportunity to do some research around the link between student
retention and student recruitment.
So we can recruit students in with a compelling message, but are we giving them
the messages and the supports to help them succeed?
So I led that project and then I became the dean of students,
then the vice president of students, and then I left and then came back and
(05:42):
spent 15 years as president.
Yeah. So a bit of an absolute, you know, meandering route.
But a really fun, rewarding, amazing one most of the time.
And so, you know, going back to the time when you were recruiting students,
did you find, you know, certainly in my own life,
I found education as something that is so valuable and at times difficult to
(06:08):
obtain because of financial situations or even, you know, having children young.
Did you find that those students that have had that recognition in the power
and the importance of education and what it can do for their life,
that they were able to be more resilient.
So it's really interesting because I had such a passion for those who were first
(06:31):
in their family to attend and those from marginalized groups who'd been sort of left out.
A lot of the work we did really focused on not only getting those students in,
but then building a body of supports around them to help them overcome all the
barriers you just described so well. And one more that I would add,
which is social capital.
You know, we were immigrants to the country.
(06:52):
My dad was a carpenter. My dad wasn't, I wasn't caddying on the golf course
on the weekend with his banker buddies.
So, you know, those kinds of networks. And so when we looked at what the barriers are,
not only to get into school, but then to succeed while you're there,
and then to succeed in the world of work, that's how we kind of viewed the continuum
(07:13):
of what we needed to do to break down those barriers.
And it was interesting because the last time I looked at the numbers,
and I haven't been at the college in a little while, but the last time I looked,
our graduation rates for those who were the first in their family were higher
than those who came directly to high school,
who had parents at home, who had a post-secondary education.
(07:34):
And because of where we were located in Scarborough and East York,
a lot of our students were also immigrants.
So there was that other additional piece to it as well.
On a personal note, how was it for your parents when you You graduated. Oh.
That's such a great question. I think I almost choked up there.
(07:55):
I think they were just extraordinarily proud. And, you know,
my parents, I was very lucky.
I had great parents. I had parents who supported me, but I had parents who came
from working class Scotland and who never thought of any of their kids going
to post-secondary. The university was something rich people did.
They'd never even heard of the kind of college that we had here in Ontario and Canada.
(08:20):
And so my parents always said, you know, they felt kind of embarrassed that
they never thought to plan for me or any of my siblings going to higher ed.
It just was so foreign to them. And so the fact that I got in and graduated
and then went on to have a successful career was really, they were just incredibly proud.
(08:42):
And at my installation as president that day, I actually started a scholarship
in their name to recognize what they'd done for me.
And that scholarship was to be awarded to someone who was the first in their
family to go to post-secondary to help. And it was as much a bursary as a scholarship.
It really was to help eliminate those barriers. So their name can carry on in
(09:02):
the recipients every year.
That's so special. That means so much. And I'm sure that they were like extremely
proud, but then also that you were able to give that back to so many different families.
I think that's so special.
And so, you know, I grew up with a learning disability.
I had dyslexia. And so even despite that, I always thought I'm going to go to university.
(09:27):
But I often had my mom saying, well, think about college.
And so I did go to college first, but I don't see there being,
having gone to college and university,
they're both extremely valuable and they should never be leveled as one better than the other.
(09:49):
Do you think that's shifted now in today's world or, you know,
what, what are your ideas around that concept?
It absolutely has shifted. So I'll just, just a little anecdote.
When I graduated from college, I was applying for a job at another college.
And in the interview, one of the people interviewing me said,
you seem really smart and articulate. Why did you go to a college?
(10:13):
I think you are unfollowed. You really think that poorly of your students?
So, so much has changed. I think especially in the last couple of decades,
there's such an awareness of the value of a college education.
And I think a number of things helped change the public's understanding of that.
One was the integration of applied research at colleges.
(10:35):
That kind of research was directly connected to small and medium enterprises
that really fueled innovation, especially in a country that still has a terrible productivity record.
That brought all kinds of business and industries to our doors who hadn't been
paying attention before. for.
The second was, like you, I went to college and then university,
(10:58):
but one of the major trains and trends in the last two decades has been university
graduates coming to college. Yeah.
Post-grad programs for, you know, alternate to master's, alternatives to master's programs.
You know, we had at Centennial a sports journalism program that was post-graduate,
and so many students saw it.
(11:20):
It's the only one in the country as a way to get into that particular field.
So as we started to get more of that, some of those students were saying,
wow, I'm challenged in a different way here and having a good experience,
but a different experience.
And especially if you've been in an undergrad program where you're in a lecture
hall with 200 students to then come and being this really small classroom,
(11:43):
especially in the post-grad, really focusing on particular areas,
I think helps so much and change the awareness of what we would do.
I would argue we've always been doing good work.
I think one of the other things that's helped raise the value is at a time when First Nations, Métis.
Indigenous, Inuit people are still not having the opportunities they deserve
(12:06):
in their own land, on their own land.
Colleges across the country have an amazing track record for serving and learning
for Indigenous learners.
So all of these things, I think have helped raise that awareness.
And of course, more of us can offer degrees now.
And, you know, I think that's good, but I also think degrees aren't necessarily
(12:29):
the only credential that gets you into the workplace and gets you to have a,
you know, a meaningful life and doing meaningful work.
So lots of things have changed, certainly since I was a student.
Yeah. And I see that, you know, having the experience of being in college and
university, and then even with my daughter, who's now at Humber doing film and
(12:50):
television, she went to university first and she was learning a lot of theory and it wasn't for her.
She goes to Humber and she's actually training on the cameras and the equipment
that the real industry is using and the software.
And now during the summer, she's able to actually, you know, be on set. Yeah.
(13:11):
Do you feel like there's stronger collaborations now between universities and college?
Because I feel like there's a value in having both connected.
Yes. And actually the statistics show that having both makes you the most employable.
Employers really resonate with both of those. And I do think,
(13:31):
for me, encouraging students to get into higher education,
which is what I still do, I still passionately believe in it,
it's about finding the fit, the place where you can thrive,
where you feel like you're learning and expressing yourself in the right way,
you know, and that, and that will change throughout your life.
I loved my university experience, but I did it all the long,
(13:53):
hard, slow way, one night class at a time, as I may have to.
So I do, I think that that's about, you know, how we like to learn.
And there's more research around that, that, that shows the importance of finding
a learning that really gets you going. That's what retention's about, right?
(14:15):
It's about being in a place, not that's not hard, not that's not challenging,
not that on some days you just want to quit because you're just overwhelmed.
All those things are part of the journey, but having a place that lets you reach your potential.
As we used to always say, you know, you, everything should be be a possibility for you.
You want to try it and experiment with it. There should be a way for you to be able to.
(14:38):
To do that. And would you encourage anybody that, you know, wants to continue
to learn that, you know, it may seem overwhelming at first, the number of credits
you need to have, but just do one night school,
one, you know, there's so much flexibility now.
How do you feel that, you know, the, well, obviously past COVID now,
(14:59):
especially the hybrid and remote learning, but, you know, remote learning existed
even 10, 20 years ago. It's evolved so much.
Do you think that that's really opened up as well, like allowing access to education?
Absolutely. I would like to see the data on what it's done for really marginalized
(15:21):
peoples, because you have to have to do online,
you still have to have the computer and the technology and the internet and
all of those other things.
So, you know, for those that have been most left behind, I'm still not sure
were doing enough and have got them on the escalator, as my friend used to say,
to start getting them up those stairs.
(15:42):
Generally speaking, I think it's been phenomenal. I think students can now really
look at micro-credentials and, you know, they can piece together the kind of
learning that they need.
Employers will talk a lot about how they love boot camps for coding and they
love all these kinds of, you know, skills-based short-term things.
But they also want all of those, and people call them soft skills,
(16:08):
I call them essential skills,
the ability to work in teams, the ability to work with people who have very
different perspectives and backgrounds for you, the ability to really understand.
Go beyond the technical to take a vision to a reality, right?
So I worry that we're not paying enough attention to that as we have more people
(16:31):
learning simply behind a keyboard.
So I think it is, all of this distance learning is magical and phenomenal,
and it opens so many doors, but there is still a human learning,
a human experience, right?
As I always say too, like for me, learning is a contact sport.
(16:52):
Like I want to feel it. I want to be nudged by it. I want others to get out
of their seat and really engage.
And I don't know how much that can happen if the only access you had is the
way we're chatting right now.
It certainly can, but I don't know no to the nth degree.
Yeah, I agree with that because, you know, you can think back to times where
you've been in a classroom where you can feel the energy where everybody's talking
(17:15):
about something and they're creating,
coming up with ideas and maybe even having different points of view,
but like working it out, maybe coming up with something new.
You know, that is some of the research that I've done on hybrid workplace.
What do you think, you know, I identified something called a serendipity gap.
And that's a gap in, you know, opportunity because we're purely a lot of times remote.
(17:39):
And whereas if we're in person, you may accidentally come across somebody and
be overhearing a conversation and then join in.
And maybe that leads to a career opportunity or a network opportunity,
you know, in terms of like the future skills and preparing students for that
next, you know, this shift in workplace.
(18:03):
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Well, I think it relates back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of the social capital.
For those of you who aren't born with it, like me, you have to find it,
earn it, network it, do all those kinds of things.
And if I'm at an event that the Board of Trade is putting on for my students,
(18:24):
And my students can mingle. They can do exactly what you just said.
They can bump into people. They can have that serendipitous moment, right?
I think that is absolutely extraordinary. If that same talk is happening via
Zoom or another platform and they're watching it, they can't do any of those things.
(18:46):
Not to mention, networking is an art. It's a talent. It's a skill.
And so you have to practice it. You have to accidentally knock the drink on
the CEO and be all, you have to do that to get to the place where you can confidently
walk up, shake their hand, talk to them,
you know, learn the elevator pitch,
(19:08):
as much as I hate that phrase, but learn the way to do the introductions and
how to not only ask these people you bump into for something,
but be willing to give to offer as well.
So it's those relationships that I most worry about in terms of going forward.
Because the research that I've seen around even people who are spending so much
(19:33):
time on social media and what it does to, particularly in teenagers,
self-esteem and their sense of the world and the lack of ability to do critical thinking,
just all of those things scare me.
But I think there's fantastic things happening online, too.
So I'm not a fear mongerer, but critical thinking has got to be the number one
(19:56):
skill we need right now. I agree with you completely.
Before we get to the critical thinking, because there's a question I have related to that and AI.
But one of the things in terms of some of the research I'm finding is the social
anxiety, particularly those that are entering the workforce early.
During COVID or post-COVID that they studied primarily remotely.
(20:18):
Now they've started their careers remotely too. I studied public relations as well first.
And I would go to an event and I'd be like, okay, one person,
two people, I meet two people, I can go home.
And I'd be so anxious and I'd probably cling on to the first person that I talked to.
And so now you're getting these people that are coming out and there's a social anxiety.
(20:41):
And so do you think that's something that, you know, universities and colleges
and, you know, they need to pay more attention to, to help prepare the next
generation for career growth?
Absolutely. I mean, mental health and the challenges in fire ed,
you know, one of the most significant challenges we've seen in the last two decades.
It's, you know, at times an absolute crisis.
(21:05):
I think one of the advantages colleges have in this area is the work integrated
learning, where there are so many opportunities for students to do internships,
practicums, placements, you know, company visits,
hackathons, the applied research that I mentioned, all of these kinds of things
(21:27):
where they're seeing employers in small groups.
They're making some of those connections in ways that at first feel safe instead
of walking into the massive room, but also they feel safe because you're building
some of your confidence.
I will tell you coming out of COVID, I think this is one of the things that
everybody has seen is that when people,
you know, it was all fun baking bread in the first little bit,
(21:50):
but, but beyond that, there was a lot of loss of not only the ability to connect,
but the desire to connect.
There was this intense loneliness that's being reported, but people almost afraid to break out of that.
So I do think that...
You know, again, I believe in the student success principles with your students.
(22:11):
You get them engaged early.
You get them doing things that get them out of their comfort zone that they can enjoy.
So they build that set of skills and they realize that failure and embarrassment
are not the end of your life.
Now, having said that, and I used to jokingly say this to students at orientation,
if you're going to do something that you really shouldn't be doing,
(22:32):
do not film it and post it. Yes.
Because it will follow you. Right? I mean, you and I, we're a lot.
No, I didn't grow up with it. No. Right?
We could make mistakes and follow your friends new and it might hang around
for a while, but it didn't hang around forever.
Forever and and and so I I feel I
(22:55):
feel so badly for young people now who
do one stupid thing and I'm talking about one I'm not talking about people who
have patterns of really heinous behavior but even then why are you filming it
yeah and and also the mental health side so you know going to you know the advent
of AI and the critical thinking you know do you feel you
(23:18):
know, it's, I think it's an incredible tool and it's, it's crazy what it can do.
It's, it's so powerful, but do you think that it's making us mentally lazier?
Well, it's so funny you should say that because in the last few weeks,
I've been at events where there's been a number of speakers and I can't tell
you how many said, so I went to chat GPT and I said, tell me this.
(23:41):
And so here's what it told me.
And I think some of them are just having fun and playing with it.
But I think it's both incredible when you're trying to get information and it
has the potential to make us intellectually lazy. easy.
I also think the plagiarism kind of issues that are going to pop,
(24:02):
you know, there's all of this that is troublesome when it comes to,
you know, higher education.
On the flip side of that, I'm on the board of a company that uses a lot of AI
in student success initiatives.
So we have personal connections as well.
So at any time you can call and get support with an essay with our,
(24:24):
you know, whatever the project is, and they will not give you the answers,
but they will give you some advice.
The same way, some of the tools allow you to submit a portion of your work and
have it sort of reviewed from a language, from a thought.
I think all of that is magical and how that can help build your confidence if
(24:45):
you're learning from it.
So the learning machines learn from us. We need to learn from them and not always
see AI as the solution to everything going forward.
But the potential of it is just, it's mind blowing to me. It's one right now
I see of those, the dualities of the world.
It's got these incredible force for good and the potential to do just,
(25:08):
you know, drastically damaging things. Yeah.
And so, you know, I've, I've always admired you, although we've never met in
person, but you know, I was in economic development and Centennial College participated
in a trade mission to Israel with us.
That's right. My friend, I think Trish Striden was with you.
(25:31):
Yes. And what I admired about you and Centennial College is that you're so entrepreneurial.
And so can you just explain that a little bit of how you were able to really
evolve the college to a point where you're so innovative and so entrepreneurial
and coming up with so many different,
(25:53):
you know, in what is typically often, you know, academia,
more of a a structured, you know, similar to government environment.
How were you able to succeed as a leader in really presenting Centennial as
this like amazingly entrepreneurial college?
(26:14):
Well, I think some of that, if I'm completely honest, and I usually am,
came from when I rejoined as president, we were in some trouble.
And so we were financially in trouble. We had been losing enrollment.
And when you lose enrollment, you then lose money and then quality suffers.
So there was a bit of a challenge. And what that gave us was the ability to
(26:39):
create a case for change that instead of saying to people, we're in trouble, heads down,
save every penny, cut everywhere,
what we said was we need to reinvent ourselves.
So we are going to have to make some difficult decisions, but what we need is something catalytic.
(26:59):
And so it became our first strategic plan, which was called our Book of Commitments.
And it essentially was a statement of a number of statements of commitments
we were making to our students, to our community,
to our stakeholders about how we were both going to differentiate our college
and about how we were going to achieve that goal of excellence.
(27:19):
And so that sort of began the journey of creating our signature learning experience,
which was around global citizenship.
But the underpinning of that was essential employability skills and employment
opportunities for our grads.
It also was catalytic for the
college community because suddenly we had a common view, a common goal.
(27:42):
That allowed us as we started to really see the results of that,
you know, students so bought into it. It let us layer on other products and
services and approaches.
So our innovation center started to do more applied research that brought in
revenues that we could then use other places.
(28:03):
Interestingly, our commitment to social justice and global citizenship,
which we really started to honor the people of Scarborough and the immigrant community we were in.
Took off with international students. They loved it. They loved this notion.
And so as more and more international students came, that also gave us revenue
in hand because of the weird way colleges are funded.
(28:26):
And that let us take those resources and reinvest them in ways that benefited all students.
So it let us be more entrepreneurial.
Our residence, which was built as as a public-private partnership,
allowed us to have a, just as an example, a new school of hospitality,
a new building for the school of hospitality, and this incredible modern,
(28:49):
engaged residence facility for students.
So it was about having a model of keeping those three things in the triad in mind, right?
Budget, enrollment, quality, and about making sure that when we We did have
money. We invested in ways that replicated our values.
So from a place of crisis, with that sort of catalytic notion of how we would
(29:12):
differentiate, and then being relentlessly optimistic and, frankly,
demanding in a way. We were going to hold each other up.
And as I said all the time, when we fail, we let down our students.
We let down our communities.
We let down this country. This is about, you know, Canada building.
(29:34):
So you can tell I got a little excited about that.
And then to my, just the earlier point, we were talking about leadership.
I mean, two of the things that we brought in that really differentiated us,
one was a distinction in leadership credential that students could earn.
It was curricular and co-curricular. It had meaning. It wasn't a tick box.
(29:57):
It wasn't pick up garbage for three hours. It was rich.
It was fulsome. And to engage in that leadership passport, it costs you nothing
as a student, nothing. Cause again, for me.
Passports to leadership often require
resources. So we wanted to be those resources to give that passport.
Interestingly, students loved that so much that our faculty and staff came and
(30:20):
asked if we could do the same program for them.
And then the other thing was because we were committed to global citizenship,
our global citizenship service learning experiences where students,
faculty, staff went overseas and did meaningful work in communities,
listening to what those communities needed.
It wasn't, if I were from Canada, we have the answers.
And what that did was give so many of our students, one, their first international
(30:44):
experience, and two, their first real sense that they had power to give back.
You know, when you're an immigrant, when you're the first in your family,
when you're an international student, 17,000 kilometers away from home,
you don't necessarily know that you have power.
And so seeing them give back and understanding their responsibility to give
(31:05):
back as part of the deal of getting the education, just, just incredible.
Wow. And so, you know, you're innovating and, and, you know,
it was very successful, but was there times as a leader for yourself where you
were worried or were there, how did you handle,
because when you're growing and you're innovating, not everything goes as planned.
(31:30):
And how are you able to maintain strength and courage to lead during times that
where you were implementing this change, but it must, there must've been difficult times.
There absolutely were. In many cases, you went a few steps forward and you're
getting momentum and then something would come that would pull you back or a
(31:50):
government policy, which like, who knows?
There's a million flying monkeys as my sister and I like to call them from the Wizard of Oz.
And I'll tell you, there's a few things. One of the things I learned when I
was in Nova Scotia was the absolute power of building an executive team that
has the same values, that is that mission, that passion, that connectivity,
(32:12):
because there is something so
amazing about knowing that even as the president, you do not stand alone.
You do in some cases when you have to take responsibility when something didn't go right. That's yours.
You own that. But in terms of the personal connection and support for each other
and that, you know, we were linked and we worked hard to forge those links so
(32:35):
that, you know, we knew we had each other's back.
And that made a vast amount of difference for me.
I would say throughout my career, mentors, both those that were,
you know, sort of my boss or in a position that was higher up the hierarchy
than mine, but also peer mentors and friends from across the country made a difference.
And then one piece of advice I always give, especially to women, but to all leaders is.
(33:00):
You know, take a vacation. And I mean this wholeheartedly.
My executive team knew you have to take at least one vacation of two weeks in length.
You can spread out the rest of your vacation days however you want,
but you need at least one that's two solid weeks away.
And unless it gives you great anxiety to not be checking in,
(33:21):
I don't want to hear from you.
I don't want you to to check in. I want you to go away.
And that for me was what I needed. I needed to go somewhere and fill back up.
And sometimes there were places that legitimately nobody could get a hold of
me, which was kind of incredibly freeing and amazing.
(33:42):
I'm probably one of the few people who, when you could get internet access on
airplanes, went, ah, I got it.
I liked when I had 14 hours where no one could find me.
But I think that that has just been what got me through some really tough times,
that physical, mental, kind of spiritual reconnection.
(34:05):
So I'm not somebody who says, I'm taking my phone, I'm going to check my email every day on vacation.
You know, when I was president and we were going through some of the biggest
changes, my assistant and I, who became fast friends.
She would, at the end of the day, leave me a voicemail message if there was
anything I needed to know. And so I checked that at the end of the day.
(34:26):
And these were the early years when I thought it was really important to be in contact.
But after that, I had a great team. I trusted them.
That's what you do. You don't make yourself the martyr and you don't answer
I don't have any time for that.
(34:46):
And so, yep, my adventures kept me sane.
I could see that because, you know, one week you're still like,
it's really hard to let it go.
And I think that people that, you know, are passionate about what they do and
they really want to do a good job, it's always on your mind, you know.
And I myself even have to force myself not to bring something with me because
(35:10):
did you find sometimes there is maybe at certain points in your life where there's
like a guilty feeling like,
of, I'm not doing anything. I'm sitting here and I'm reading a book,
but I'm not, I'm achieving anything.
What am I doing? You know? And we have to let go of that because we can't be
creative or come up with new ideas because we'll burn ourselves out.
(35:33):
I had a counselor once who said to me, your productivity is not your self-worth.
And I went, Yeah. Wow.
So I loved that. I love, and I, you know, I think about that often,
even now when my, my life is quite different than it was when I was, when I was president.
And I think probably earlier in my career where, when I was managing or leading
(35:59):
and I did have people around that I would, I would worry about how I might let them down.
And as president, that was probably my biggest fear, you know,
if I make a huge mistake, yes, I'll pay the consequences, but who,
who cares? The institution will.
Right. And so that, that, I think that kind of weighs on you.
(36:20):
I do think the gift that somewhere along the way that I picked up was,
I no longer feel that guilt,
when I have to walk away and just go, I will happily float in the ocean and
say hi to the sea turtles and not even think about what's, what's happening.
And that doesn't mean it doesn't pop into my mind. I don't think,
(36:43):
Oh, cause I'm occasionally floating with the sea turtles.
Something has popped into my mind. That's really good. Right.
And I honestly think you get those ideas that come when you take the stress away and you,
you have a chance to just kind of relax and and be yourself and do the things
(37:03):
that you love and try new things and all, you know, all of that.
And so what did it mean for you when you found out that you won the Order of Canada?
What emotions or how did you feel about that?
So I was sitting in my little den watching television with my sister.
(37:24):
It was about 6.30 at night and my phone rang and I looked down and I saw Ottawa. off.
And I thought, oh, what did I do?
So I picked it up and there was this lovely woman on the other end of the phone
and she tells me going to get an order of Canada.
And I literally, I stood up and I, the first thing I said, I couldn't help it.
(37:49):
I just said, I wish my mom and dad were alive.
And that was the first thing that, that hit me. And my sister's looking at me
like, what just happened?
Yeah. What just happened? and what made you stand up like, you know,
like I was saluting someone.
And, and it was just, I mean, I was overwhelmed. I had, you know,
(38:09):
you don't know you've been nominated.
You don't know who nominates you, you know, you don't know anything about the process.
So it really is this wonderful, wonderful gift that comes from out of the blue.
And I was just so moved. And I knew my parents, you know, especially being Scottish,
that they would see this as it's coming from the governor general as something
(38:31):
that was really, really special.
So I did, I texted my auntie and uncle in Scotland to say, yeah,
it was, it was really, yeah, I still, I still can't believe it actually.
Very humbling and amazing.
When you, when you received it and I don't know your spiritual beliefs and maybe
(38:53):
this is too personal, but did you feel their presence?
Like when, when you received that and you were there in the moment,
you know, sometimes you don't realize how overwhelming emotionally you can be
in certain situations, like when you're about to graduate or things like that.
And was it just overwhelming for you in such a beautiful way?
You know, it absolutely was. And I, I did kind of feel them there with me that
(39:19):
day and to receive it from Mary Simon, because we were, our ceremony was almost
two years later because of COVID.
They were really behind. And so it took a long time.
So I said to her to receive this from you, the first Indigenous woman to hold
this post. It's just like, you have no idea what it means to me.
And she very graciously said, well, it's lovely to meet you too. you, not again.
(39:42):
You're the, the, just this incredible woman. And everybody in that room is so, so amazing.
But I, I did feel them.
And, and I think, you know, wherever they are in this universe,
they were smiling. And that was really, that was really lovely.
Wow. And so, you know, kind of wrapping up, what, what advice do you have to
(40:04):
female leaders, There's, you know, in this next generation, there's so much
change, you know, the transition to hybrid,
that we've just gone through a pandemic, that there's so much going on in the world.
I do believe, you know, there's progress being made in female leadership and
women being able to break through the glass ceiling.
What advice do you have to them based on your incredible career?
(40:28):
I think the first thing I would say relates to my take a vacation,
which is, you know, have fun.
And I'm not talking about the Google play tennis, table tennis stuff. All that's amazing.
But really have fun. Try to enjoy what it is you're doing. And if you,
(40:51):
you know, I read some of these blogs about these people who hate pretty much
everything about their jobs and they don't like the people that they work with.
And I just think, oh, soul sucking.
Yeah, sometimes you have to take a job because you have to pay the bill.
But keep looking. Keep looking for that thing that brings you that pleasure.
I would say look after yourself, you know, because you will be the best leader,
(41:14):
the best person. You will make the best impression when you are healthy.
And, you know, when you're fulfilling something in you.
I would say, think about what you want the next step to be and then plan for it.
You know, I once interviewed a woman for a job who said, and afterwards I chatted
(41:35):
with her when she didn't get it.
And she was so upset that she didn't get it because she deserved it.
She told me that she deserved it.
And I said, you know, we all deserve opportunities.
Absolutely. But here's your job. Here's the job you're applying for.
Here's what we need someone to be able
to do and here's what you're currently doing so what
(41:56):
are those gaps so i tell people all the time you
know volunteer on boards engage with
service club whatever it is help build those
skills that you think you need to get to the next place that you want to go
and i would say it doesn't always have to be a position up lateral moves can
be as as fulfilling and amazing and rewarding as feeling you want the title.
(42:23):
When I taught at the National Executive Leadership Institute,
we were teaching vice presidents who were thinking about applying for a presidency.
And we always shocked them because the first whole day was spent around knowing
who you are, understanding what the role of the president really is,
and then by the end of the week telling us, do you still want it or not?
(42:44):
And we had about 50% none of our students say, absolutely not.
That's not what I want. And I would say, congratulations, you're graduating.
Because it's really important to know what you want in life.
And I think I made, you know, the odd misstep along the way with taking jobs
that because I thought, oh, this, you know, this will be great. That's not so great.
(43:06):
Right? So doesn't always have to be up. Moving out can be awesome.
Now, I think that's amazing advice. Thank you so much match for your time and your insights.
And, you know, what do you see for your future?
So I'm going to do more adventure traveling because I love it.
I'm trying to get some discipline around my writing because I'm very hit and
(43:28):
miss with it. And it's a way I love to express.
And, you know, I'm still really engaged in the sector through different boards
in that, but I, I, you know, two things that I teach young girls when we do
strong girls, strong women, and And I advise anybody, no one to say yes and no one to say no.
So we want to say yes to more adventurous, fun things.
(43:49):
Yeah. I'm going to go fail at some things and have fun with it.
(44:17):
Music.
Music.
(00:55):
Music.
How's your morning so far? Good? I have been actually reviewing scholarship
applications, so I'm getting to see all these incredible stories of resilience
and leadership and passion.
Yeah, it's been a pretty good morning so far, I have to say.
(01:17):
That's amazing. So why don't we get started?
I'd love to know, when you were younger, what did you want to be when you grew up?
So that depended a little bit on the day of the week. Okay.
Like many little girls, I wanted to be a teacher and a nurse.
And then at some point, I decided I wanted to be an astronaut.
(01:40):
But since I got motion sickness in the back of a car, it's probably good that
I didn't go in that direction.
Probably as I got into my teens and a little bit older, I knew two things about
myself. One was I like to write and use that writing as a way to persuade, to engage.
(02:01):
And as my parents would have told you, I liked a good argument.
So lawyer, briefly, you know, I considered law.
But there was something about, I didn't recognize it then as leadership,
but that's what it was, wanting to see change, wanting to sort of champion the
(02:21):
underdog, wanting to be a part of doing things better and differently.
And so that kind of led me into what I thought I was going to do,
which was public relations for a not-for-profit.
I just thought getting messages out, crafting drafting them,
the plans, the events, that all sounded like me.
And I studied public relations at a college.
(02:42):
But when I graduated, it wasn't a great time for jobs.
And I had done my internship, my final one, with the Student Association and
the Student Life Department at Humber College, where I was studying.
And I saw that the leadership part of me, that we had real opportunity to,
rather than just let these student leaders be elected and fumble their way through,
(03:04):
but really to construct some leadership pieces.
And so that kind of started it. My very first job was doing student government
leadership development conferences nationally, and it was a great launching
pad. Wow, that's amazing.
And so did you always have that inner feeling that you were meant to do something
important, like that your work needed to mean something to you versus just being a job? No.
(03:30):
Yes, I have always been kind of mission and passion driven.
I like to say to my students, I express it this way. I love shoes.
I'm never going to work for a shoe company.
So it has to be something for me that really did have meaning.
And probably my younger self, I just knew I was always wanting to make things
better for the people around me.
(03:51):
But again, wouldn't have necessarily said that made me a leader,
just that it made me passionate.
And actually, throughout my career, if I ever felt like I was losing that,
you know, if getting out of bed in the morning was a struggle,
then I knew it was time to move on to try something new.
So, yeah, I'm very passion and mission driven.
And that says a lot about the college then. You found that passion every single day.
(04:16):
You know, before we get into talking about that, how did you evolve into where you are today?
So it's quite an interesting journey. As I said, my first job out of college
was doing the student government leadership development.
And I became so interested in trying to support these students who have,
(04:36):
you know, in some cases, millions of dollars of budget, really get the most experience out of it.
Doing the most for the students that they serve, but also getting a rewarding
experience for themselves.
That led me, my very first job at Centennial was as a recruitment officer.
Professor and I was connected there with
recruitment and admissions and with marketing and
(04:56):
so again getting to craft those messages but because
I was in so many schools I also saw right in
front of me what the barriers were to education and I was the first in my family
to go to post-secondary so I kind of that that became a little bit of my passion
was to help more who were the first in their family to attend to get into it
(05:17):
so from there I ended up leading that department.
And then I had an opportunity to do some research around the link between student
retention and student recruitment.
So we can recruit students in with a compelling message, but are we giving them
the messages and the supports to help them succeed?
So I led that project and then I became the dean of students,
then the vice president of students, and then I left and then came back and
(05:42):
spent 15 years as president.
Yeah. So a bit of an absolute, you know, meandering route.
But a really fun, rewarding, amazing one most of the time.
And so, you know, going back to the time when you were recruiting students,
did you find, you know, certainly in my own life,
I found education as something that is so valuable and at times difficult to
(06:08):
obtain because of financial situations or even, you know, having children young.
Did you find that those students that have had that recognition in the power
and the importance of education and what it can do for their life,
that they were able to be more resilient.
So it's really interesting because I had such a passion for those who were first
(06:31):
in their family to attend and those from marginalized groups who'd been sort of left out.
A lot of the work we did really focused on not only getting those students in,
but then building a body of supports around them to help them overcome all the
barriers you just described so well. And one more that I would add,
which is social capital.
You know, we were immigrants to the country.
(06:52):
My dad was a carpenter. My dad wasn't, I wasn't caddying on the golf course
on the weekend with his banker buddies.
So, you know, those kinds of networks. And so when we looked at what the barriers are,
not only to get into school, but then to succeed while you're there,
and then to succeed in the world of work, that's how we kind of viewed the continuum
(07:13):
of what we needed to do to break down those barriers.
And it was interesting because the last time I looked at the numbers,
and I haven't been at the college in a little while, but the last time I looked,
our graduation rates for those who were the first in their family were higher
than those who came directly to high school,
who had parents at home, who had a post-secondary education.
(07:34):
And because of where we were located in Scarborough and East York,
a lot of our students were also immigrants.
So there was that other additional piece to it as well.
On a personal note, how was it for your parents when you You graduated. Oh.
That's such a great question. I think I almost choked up there.
(07:55):
I think they were just extraordinarily proud. And, you know,
my parents, I was very lucky.
I had great parents. I had parents who supported me, but I had parents who came
from working class Scotland and who never thought of any of their kids going
to post-secondary. The university was something rich people did.
They'd never even heard of the kind of college that we had here in Ontario and Canada.
(08:20):
And so my parents always said, you know, they felt kind of embarrassed that
they never thought to plan for me or any of my siblings going to higher ed.
It just was so foreign to them. And so the fact that I got in and graduated
and then went on to have a successful career was really, they were just incredibly proud.
(08:42):
And at my installation as president that day, I actually started a scholarship
in their name to recognize what they'd done for me.
And that scholarship was to be awarded to someone who was the first in their
family to go to post-secondary to help. And it was as much a bursary as a scholarship.
It really was to help eliminate those barriers. So their name can carry on in
(09:02):
the recipients every year.
That's so special. That means so much. And I'm sure that they were like extremely
proud, but then also that you were able to give that back to so many different families.
I think that's so special.
And so, you know, I grew up with a learning disability.
I had dyslexia. And so even despite that, I always thought I'm going to go to university.
(09:27):
But I often had my mom saying, well, think about college.
And so I did go to college first, but I don't see there being,
having gone to college and university,
they're both extremely valuable and they should never be leveled as one better than the other.
(09:49):
Do you think that's shifted now in today's world or, you know,
what, what are your ideas around that concept?
It absolutely has shifted. So I'll just, just a little anecdote.
When I graduated from college, I was applying for a job at another college.
And in the interview, one of the people interviewing me said,
you seem really smart and articulate. Why did you go to a college?
(10:13):
I think you are unfollowed. You really think that poorly of your students?
So, so much has changed. I think especially in the last couple of decades,
there's such an awareness of the value of a college education.
And I think a number of things helped change the public's understanding of that.
One was the integration of applied research at colleges.
(10:35):
That kind of research was directly connected to small and medium enterprises
that really fueled innovation, especially in a country that still has a terrible productivity record.
That brought all kinds of business and industries to our doors who hadn't been
paying attention before. for.
The second was, like you, I went to college and then university,
(10:58):
but one of the major trains and trends in the last two decades has been university
graduates coming to college. Yeah.
Post-grad programs for, you know, alternate to master's, alternatives to master's programs.
You know, we had at Centennial a sports journalism program that was post-graduate,
and so many students saw it.
(11:20):
It's the only one in the country as a way to get into that particular field.
So as we started to get more of that, some of those students were saying,
wow, I'm challenged in a different way here and having a good experience,
but a different experience.
And especially if you've been in an undergrad program where you're in a lecture
hall with 200 students to then come and being this really small classroom,
(11:43):
especially in the post-grad, really focusing on particular areas,
I think helps so much and change the awareness of what we would do.
I would argue we've always been doing good work.
I think one of the other things that's helped raise the value is at a time when First Nations, Métis.
Indigenous, Inuit people are still not having the opportunities they deserve
(12:06):
in their own land, on their own land.
Colleges across the country have an amazing track record for serving and learning
for Indigenous learners.
So all of these things, I think have helped raise that awareness.
And of course, more of us can offer degrees now.
And, you know, I think that's good, but I also think degrees aren't necessarily
(12:29):
the only credential that gets you into the workplace and gets you to have a,
you know, a meaningful life and doing meaningful work.
So lots of things have changed, certainly since I was a student.
Yeah. And I see that, you know, having the experience of being in college and
university, and then even with my daughter, who's now at Humber doing film and
(12:50):
television, she went to university first and she was learning a lot of theory and it wasn't for her.
She goes to Humber and she's actually training on the cameras and the equipment
that the real industry is using and the software.
And now during the summer, she's able to actually, you know, be on set. Yeah.
(13:11):
Do you feel like there's stronger collaborations now between universities and college?
Because I feel like there's a value in having both connected.
Yes. And actually the statistics show that having both makes you the most employable.
Employers really resonate with both of those. And I do think,
(13:31):
for me, encouraging students to get into higher education,
which is what I still do, I still passionately believe in it,
it's about finding the fit, the place where you can thrive,
where you feel like you're learning and expressing yourself in the right way,
you know, and that, and that will change throughout your life.
I loved my university experience, but I did it all the long,
(13:53):
hard, slow way, one night class at a time, as I may have to.
So I do, I think that that's about, you know, how we like to learn.
And there's more research around that, that, that shows the importance of finding
a learning that really gets you going. That's what retention's about, right?
(14:15):
It's about being in a place, not that's not hard, not that's not challenging,
not that on some days you just want to quit because you're just overwhelmed.
All those things are part of the journey, but having a place that lets you reach your potential.
As we used to always say, you know, you, everything should be be a possibility for you.
You want to try it and experiment with it. There should be a way for you to be able to.
(14:38):
To do that. And would you encourage anybody that, you know, wants to continue
to learn that, you know, it may seem overwhelming at first, the number of credits
you need to have, but just do one night school,
one, you know, there's so much flexibility now.
How do you feel that, you know, the, well, obviously past COVID now,
(14:59):
especially the hybrid and remote learning, but, you know, remote learning existed
even 10, 20 years ago. It's evolved so much.
Do you think that that's really opened up as well, like allowing access to education?
Absolutely. I would like to see the data on what it's done for really marginalized
(15:21):
peoples, because you have to have to do online,
you still have to have the computer and the technology and the internet and
all of those other things.
So, you know, for those that have been most left behind, I'm still not sure
were doing enough and have got them on the escalator, as my friend used to say,
to start getting them up those stairs.
(15:42):
Generally speaking, I think it's been phenomenal. I think students can now really
look at micro-credentials and, you know, they can piece together the kind of
learning that they need.
Employers will talk a lot about how they love boot camps for coding and they
love all these kinds of, you know, skills-based short-term things.
But they also want all of those, and people call them soft skills,
(16:08):
I call them essential skills,
the ability to work in teams, the ability to work with people who have very
different perspectives and backgrounds for you, the ability to really understand.
Go beyond the technical to take a vision to a reality, right?
So I worry that we're not paying enough attention to that as we have more people
(16:31):
learning simply behind a keyboard.
So I think it is, all of this distance learning is magical and phenomenal,
and it opens so many doors, but there is still a human learning,
a human experience, right?
As I always say too, like for me, learning is a contact sport.
(16:52):
Like I want to feel it. I want to be nudged by it. I want others to get out
of their seat and really engage.
And I don't know how much that can happen if the only access you had is the
way we're chatting right now.
It certainly can, but I don't know no to the nth degree.
Yeah, I agree with that because, you know, you can think back to times where
you've been in a classroom where you can feel the energy where everybody's talking
(17:15):
about something and they're creating,
coming up with ideas and maybe even having different points of view,
but like working it out, maybe coming up with something new.
You know, that is some of the research that I've done on hybrid workplace.
What do you think, you know, I identified something called a serendipity gap.
And that's a gap in, you know, opportunity because we're purely a lot of times remote.
(17:39):
And whereas if we're in person, you may accidentally come across somebody and
be overhearing a conversation and then join in.
And maybe that leads to a career opportunity or a network opportunity,
you know, in terms of like the future skills and preparing students for that
next, you know, this shift in workplace.
(18:03):
Do you have any thoughts on that?
Well, I think it relates back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of the social capital.
For those of you who aren't born with it, like me, you have to find it,
earn it, network it, do all those kinds of things.
And if I'm at an event that the Board of Trade is putting on for my students,
(18:24):
And my students can mingle. They can do exactly what you just said.
They can bump into people. They can have that serendipitous moment, right?
I think that is absolutely extraordinary. If that same talk is happening via
Zoom or another platform and they're watching it, they can't do any of those things.
(18:46):
Not to mention, networking is an art. It's a talent. It's a skill.
And so you have to practice it. You have to accidentally knock the drink on
the CEO and be all, you have to do that to get to the place where you can confidently
walk up, shake their hand, talk to them,
you know, learn the elevator pitch,
(19:08):
as much as I hate that phrase, but learn the way to do the introductions and
how to not only ask these people you bump into for something,
but be willing to give to offer as well.
So it's those relationships that I most worry about in terms of going forward.
Because the research that I've seen around even people who are spending so much
(19:33):
time on social media and what it does to, particularly in teenagers,
self-esteem and their sense of the world and the lack of ability to do critical thinking,
just all of those things scare me.
But I think there's fantastic things happening online, too.
So I'm not a fear mongerer, but critical thinking has got to be the number one
(19:56):
skill we need right now. I agree with you completely.
Before we get to the critical thinking, because there's a question I have related to that and AI.
But one of the things in terms of some of the research I'm finding is the social
anxiety, particularly those that are entering the workforce early.
During COVID or post-COVID that they studied primarily remotely.
(20:18):
Now they've started their careers remotely too. I studied public relations as well first.
And I would go to an event and I'd be like, okay, one person,
two people, I meet two people, I can go home.
And I'd be so anxious and I'd probably cling on to the first person that I talked to.
And so now you're getting these people that are coming out and there's a social anxiety.
(20:41):
And so do you think that's something that, you know, universities and colleges
and, you know, they need to pay more attention to, to help prepare the next
generation for career growth?
Absolutely. I mean, mental health and the challenges in fire ed,
you know, one of the most significant challenges we've seen in the last two decades.
It's, you know, at times an absolute crisis.
(21:05):
I think one of the advantages colleges have in this area is the work integrated
learning, where there are so many opportunities for students to do internships,
practicums, placements, you know, company visits,
hackathons, the applied research that I mentioned, all of these kinds of things
(21:27):
where they're seeing employers in small groups.
They're making some of those connections in ways that at first feel safe instead
of walking into the massive room, but also they feel safe because you're building
some of your confidence.
I will tell you coming out of COVID, I think this is one of the things that
everybody has seen is that when people,
you know, it was all fun baking bread in the first little bit,
(21:50):
but, but beyond that, there was a lot of loss of not only the ability to connect,
but the desire to connect.
There was this intense loneliness that's being reported, but people almost afraid to break out of that.
So I do think that...
You know, again, I believe in the student success principles with your students.
(22:11):
You get them engaged early.
You get them doing things that get them out of their comfort zone that they can enjoy.
So they build that set of skills and they realize that failure and embarrassment
are not the end of your life.
Now, having said that, and I used to jokingly say this to students at orientation,
if you're going to do something that you really shouldn't be doing,
(22:32):
do not film it and post it. Yes.
Because it will follow you. Right? I mean, you and I, we're a lot.
No, I didn't grow up with it. No. Right?
We could make mistakes and follow your friends new and it might hang around
for a while, but it didn't hang around forever.
Forever and and and so I I feel I
(22:55):
feel so badly for young people now who
do one stupid thing and I'm talking about one I'm not talking about people who
have patterns of really heinous behavior but even then why are you filming it
yeah and and also the mental health side so you know going to you know the advent
of AI and the critical thinking you know do you feel you
(23:18):
know, it's, I think it's an incredible tool and it's, it's crazy what it can do.
It's, it's so powerful, but do you think that it's making us mentally lazier?
Well, it's so funny you should say that because in the last few weeks,
I've been at events where there's been a number of speakers and I can't tell
you how many said, so I went to chat GPT and I said, tell me this.
(23:41):
And so here's what it told me.
And I think some of them are just having fun and playing with it.
But I think it's both incredible when you're trying to get information and it
has the potential to make us intellectually lazy. easy.
I also think the plagiarism kind of issues that are going to pop,
(24:02):
you know, there's all of this that is troublesome when it comes to,
you know, higher education.
On the flip side of that, I'm on the board of a company that uses a lot of AI
in student success initiatives.
So we have personal connections as well.
So at any time you can call and get support with an essay with our,
(24:24):
you know, whatever the project is, and they will not give you the answers,
but they will give you some advice.
The same way, some of the tools allow you to submit a portion of your work and
have it sort of reviewed from a language, from a thought.
I think all of that is magical and how that can help build your confidence if
(24:45):
you're learning from it.
So the learning machines learn from us. We need to learn from them and not always
see AI as the solution to everything going forward.
But the potential of it is just, it's mind blowing to me. It's one right now
I see of those, the dualities of the world.
It's got these incredible force for good and the potential to do just,
(25:08):
you know, drastically damaging things. Yeah.
And so, you know, I've, I've always admired you, although we've never met in
person, but you know, I was in economic development and Centennial College participated
in a trade mission to Israel with us.
That's right. My friend, I think Trish Striden was with you.
(25:31):
Yes. And what I admired about you and Centennial College is that you're so entrepreneurial.
And so can you just explain that a little bit of how you were able to really
evolve the college to a point where you're so innovative and so entrepreneurial
and coming up with so many different,
(25:53):
you know, in what is typically often, you know, academia,
more of a a structured, you know, similar to government environment.
How were you able to succeed as a leader in really presenting Centennial as
this like amazingly entrepreneurial college?
(26:14):
Well, I think some of that, if I'm completely honest, and I usually am,
came from when I rejoined as president, we were in some trouble.
And so we were financially in trouble. We had been losing enrollment.
And when you lose enrollment, you then lose money and then quality suffers.
So there was a bit of a challenge. And what that gave us was the ability to
(26:39):
create a case for change that instead of saying to people, we're in trouble, heads down,
save every penny, cut everywhere,
what we said was we need to reinvent ourselves.
So we are going to have to make some difficult decisions, but what we need is something catalytic.
(26:59):
And so it became our first strategic plan, which was called our Book of Commitments.
And it essentially was a statement of a number of statements of commitments
we were making to our students, to our community,
to our stakeholders about how we were both going to differentiate our college
and about how we were going to achieve that goal of excellence.
(27:19):
And so that sort of began the journey of creating our signature learning experience,
which was around global citizenship.
But the underpinning of that was essential employability skills and employment
opportunities for our grads.
It also was catalytic for the
college community because suddenly we had a common view, a common goal.
(27:42):
That allowed us as we started to really see the results of that,
you know, students so bought into it. It let us layer on other products and
services and approaches.
So our innovation center started to do more applied research that brought in
revenues that we could then use other places.
(28:03):
Interestingly, our commitment to social justice and global citizenship,
which we really started to honor the people of Scarborough and the immigrant community we were in.
Took off with international students. They loved it. They loved this notion.
And so as more and more international students came, that also gave us revenue
in hand because of the weird way colleges are funded.
(28:26):
And that let us take those resources and reinvest them in ways that benefited all students.
So it let us be more entrepreneurial.
Our residence, which was built as as a public-private partnership,
allowed us to have a, just as an example, a new school of hospitality,
a new building for the school of hospitality, and this incredible modern,
(28:49):
engaged residence facility for students.
So it was about having a model of keeping those three things in the triad in mind, right?
Budget, enrollment, quality, and about making sure that when we We did have
money. We invested in ways that replicated our values.
So from a place of crisis, with that sort of catalytic notion of how we would
(29:12):
differentiate, and then being relentlessly optimistic and, frankly,
demanding in a way. We were going to hold each other up.
And as I said all the time, when we fail, we let down our students.
We let down our communities.
We let down this country. This is about, you know, Canada building.
(29:34):
So you can tell I got a little excited about that.
And then to my, just the earlier point, we were talking about leadership.
I mean, two of the things that we brought in that really differentiated us,
one was a distinction in leadership credential that students could earn.
It was curricular and co-curricular. It had meaning. It wasn't a tick box.
(29:57):
It wasn't pick up garbage for three hours. It was rich.
It was fulsome. And to engage in that leadership passport, it costs you nothing
as a student, nothing. Cause again, for me.
Passports to leadership often require
resources. So we wanted to be those resources to give that passport.
Interestingly, students loved that so much that our faculty and staff came and
(30:20):
asked if we could do the same program for them.
And then the other thing was because we were committed to global citizenship,
our global citizenship service learning experiences where students,
faculty, staff went overseas and did meaningful work in communities,
listening to what those communities needed.
It wasn't, if I were from Canada, we have the answers.
And what that did was give so many of our students, one, their first international
(30:44):
experience, and two, their first real sense that they had power to give back.
You know, when you're an immigrant, when you're the first in your family,
when you're an international student, 17,000 kilometers away from home,
you don't necessarily know that you have power.
And so seeing them give back and understanding their responsibility to give
(31:05):
back as part of the deal of getting the education, just, just incredible.
Wow. And so, you know, you're innovating and, and, you know,
it was very successful, but was there times as a leader for yourself where you
were worried or were there, how did you handle,
because when you're growing and you're innovating, not everything goes as planned.
(31:30):
And how are you able to maintain strength and courage to lead during times that
where you were implementing this change, but it must, there must've been difficult times.
There absolutely were. In many cases, you went a few steps forward and you're
getting momentum and then something would come that would pull you back or a
(31:50):
government policy, which like, who knows?
There's a million flying monkeys as my sister and I like to call them from the Wizard of Oz.
And I'll tell you, there's a few things. One of the things I learned when I
was in Nova Scotia was the absolute power of building an executive team that
has the same values, that is that mission, that passion, that connectivity,
(32:12):
because there is something so
amazing about knowing that even as the president, you do not stand alone.
You do in some cases when you have to take responsibility when something didn't go right. That's yours.
You own that. But in terms of the personal connection and support for each other
and that, you know, we were linked and we worked hard to forge those links so
(32:35):
that, you know, we knew we had each other's back.
And that made a vast amount of difference for me.
I would say throughout my career, mentors, both those that were,
you know, sort of my boss or in a position that was higher up the hierarchy
than mine, but also peer mentors and friends from across the country made a difference.
And then one piece of advice I always give, especially to women, but to all leaders is.
(33:00):
You know, take a vacation. And I mean this wholeheartedly.
My executive team knew you have to take at least one vacation of two weeks in length.
You can spread out the rest of your vacation days however you want,
but you need at least one that's two solid weeks away.
And unless it gives you great anxiety to not be checking in,
(33:21):
I don't want to hear from you.
I don't want you to to check in. I want you to go away.
And that for me was what I needed. I needed to go somewhere and fill back up.
And sometimes there were places that legitimately nobody could get a hold of
me, which was kind of incredibly freeing and amazing.
(33:42):
I'm probably one of the few people who, when you could get internet access on
airplanes, went, ah, I got it.
I liked when I had 14 hours where no one could find me.
But I think that that has just been what got me through some really tough times,
that physical, mental, kind of spiritual reconnection.
(34:05):
So I'm not somebody who says, I'm taking my phone, I'm going to check my email every day on vacation.
You know, when I was president and we were going through some of the biggest
changes, my assistant and I, who became fast friends.
She would, at the end of the day, leave me a voicemail message if there was
anything I needed to know. And so I checked that at the end of the day.
(34:26):
And these were the early years when I thought it was really important to be in contact.
But after that, I had a great team. I trusted them.
That's what you do. You don't make yourself the martyr and you don't answer
I don't have any time for that.
(34:46):
And so, yep, my adventures kept me sane.
I could see that because, you know, one week you're still like,
it's really hard to let it go.
And I think that people that, you know, are passionate about what they do and
they really want to do a good job, it's always on your mind, you know.
And I myself even have to force myself not to bring something with me because
(35:10):
did you find sometimes there is maybe at certain points in your life where there's
like a guilty feeling like,
of, I'm not doing anything. I'm sitting here and I'm reading a book,
but I'm not, I'm achieving anything.
What am I doing? You know? And we have to let go of that because we can't be
creative or come up with new ideas because we'll burn ourselves out.
(35:33):
I had a counselor once who said to me, your productivity is not your self-worth.
And I went, Yeah. Wow.
So I loved that. I love, and I, you know, I think about that often,
even now when my, my life is quite different than it was when I was, when I was president.
And I think probably earlier in my career where, when I was managing or leading
(35:59):
and I did have people around that I would, I would worry about how I might let them down.
And as president, that was probably my biggest fear, you know,
if I make a huge mistake, yes, I'll pay the consequences, but who,
who cares? The institution will.
Right. And so that, that, I think that kind of weighs on you.
(36:20):
I do think the gift that somewhere along the way that I picked up was,
I no longer feel that guilt,
when I have to walk away and just go, I will happily float in the ocean and
say hi to the sea turtles and not even think about what's, what's happening.
And that doesn't mean it doesn't pop into my mind. I don't think,
(36:43):
Oh, cause I'm occasionally floating with the sea turtles.
Something has popped into my mind. That's really good. Right.
And I honestly think you get those ideas that come when you take the stress away and you,
you have a chance to just kind of relax and and be yourself and do the things
(37:03):
that you love and try new things and all, you know, all of that.
And so what did it mean for you when you found out that you won the Order of Canada?
What emotions or how did you feel about that?
So I was sitting in my little den watching television with my sister.
(37:24):
It was about 6.30 at night and my phone rang and I looked down and I saw Ottawa. off.
And I thought, oh, what did I do?
So I picked it up and there was this lovely woman on the other end of the phone
and she tells me going to get an order of Canada.
And I literally, I stood up and I, the first thing I said, I couldn't help it.
(37:49):
I just said, I wish my mom and dad were alive.
And that was the first thing that, that hit me. And my sister's looking at me
like, what just happened?
Yeah. What just happened? and what made you stand up like, you know,
like I was saluting someone.
And, and it was just, I mean, I was overwhelmed. I had, you know,
(38:09):
you don't know you've been nominated.
You don't know who nominates you, you know, you don't know anything about the process.
So it really is this wonderful, wonderful gift that comes from out of the blue.
And I was just so moved. And I knew my parents, you know, especially being Scottish,
that they would see this as it's coming from the governor general as something
(38:31):
that was really, really special.
So I did, I texted my auntie and uncle in Scotland to say, yeah,
it was, it was really, yeah, I still, I still can't believe it actually.
Very humbling and amazing.
When you, when you received it and I don't know your spiritual beliefs and maybe
(38:53):
this is too personal, but did you feel their presence?
Like when, when you received that and you were there in the moment,
you know, sometimes you don't realize how overwhelming emotionally you can be
in certain situations, like when you're about to graduate or things like that.
And was it just overwhelming for you in such a beautiful way?
You know, it absolutely was. And I, I did kind of feel them there with me that
(39:19):
day and to receive it from Mary Simon, because we were, our ceremony was almost
two years later because of COVID.
They were really behind. And so it took a long time.
So I said to her to receive this from you, the first Indigenous woman to hold
this post. It's just like, you have no idea what it means to me.
And she very graciously said, well, it's lovely to meet you too. you, not again.
(39:42):
You're the, the, just this incredible woman. And everybody in that room is so, so amazing.
But I, I did feel them.
And, and I think, you know, wherever they are in this universe,
they were smiling. And that was really, that was really lovely.
Wow. And so, you know, kind of wrapping up, what, what advice do you have to
(40:04):
female leaders, There's, you know, in this next generation, there's so much
change, you know, the transition to hybrid,
that we've just gone through a pandemic, that there's so much going on in the world.
I do believe, you know, there's progress being made in female leadership and
women being able to break through the glass ceiling.
What advice do you have to them based on your incredible career?
(40:28):
I think the first thing I would say relates to my take a vacation,
which is, you know, have fun.
And I'm not talking about the Google play tennis, table tennis stuff. All that's amazing.
But really have fun. Try to enjoy what it is you're doing. And if you,
(40:51):
you know, I read some of these blogs about these people who hate pretty much
everything about their jobs and they don't like the people that they work with.
And I just think, oh, soul sucking.
Yeah, sometimes you have to take a job because you have to pay the bill.
But keep looking. Keep looking for that thing that brings you that pleasure.
I would say look after yourself, you know, because you will be the best leader,
(41:14):
the best person. You will make the best impression when you are healthy.
And, you know, when you're fulfilling something in you.
I would say, think about what you want the next step to be and then plan for it.
You know, I once interviewed a woman for a job who said, and afterwards I chatted
(41:35):
with her when she didn't get it.
And she was so upset that she didn't get it because she deserved it.
She told me that she deserved it.
And I said, you know, we all deserve opportunities.
Absolutely. But here's your job. Here's the job you're applying for.
Here's what we need someone to be able
to do and here's what you're currently doing so what
(41:56):
are those gaps so i tell people all the time you
know volunteer on boards engage with
service club whatever it is help build those
skills that you think you need to get to the next place that you want to go
and i would say it doesn't always have to be a position up lateral moves can
be as as fulfilling and amazing and rewarding as feeling you want the title.
(42:23):
When I taught at the National Executive Leadership Institute,
we were teaching vice presidents who were thinking about applying for a presidency.
And we always shocked them because the first whole day was spent around knowing
who you are, understanding what the role of the president really is,
and then by the end of the week telling us, do you still want it or not?
(42:44):
And we had about 50% none of our students say, absolutely not.
That's not what I want. And I would say, congratulations, you're graduating.
Because it's really important to know what you want in life.
And I think I made, you know, the odd misstep along the way with taking jobs
that because I thought, oh, this, you know, this will be great. That's not so great.
(43:06):
Right? So doesn't always have to be up. Moving out can be awesome.
Now, I think that's amazing advice. Thank you so much match for your time and your insights.
And, you know, what do you see for your future?
So I'm going to do more adventure traveling because I love it.
I'm trying to get some discipline around my writing because I'm very hit and
(43:28):
miss with it. And it's a way I love to express.
And, you know, I'm still really engaged in the sector through different boards
in that, but I, I, you know, two things that I teach young girls when we do
strong girls, strong women, and And I advise anybody, no one to say yes and no one to say no.
So we want to say yes to more adventurous, fun things.
(43:49):
Yeah. I'm going to go fail at some things and have fun with it.
(44:17):
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