February 5, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode, we sit down with Terri Cole, a best-selling author, licensed psychotherapist, relationship expert, and empowerment coach. We discuss Terri's career transition, her work (and first book) on setting boundaries, and her expertise in high-functioning codependency. You will learn what is high-functioning codependency (HFC) and learn how you can recognize and address your own codependent behaviors, set healthy boundaries and have better relationships. Terri shares tangible tips and takeaways to help you change the way you approach relationships today, so grab a pen and paper!
Episode Highlights:
- Terri shares her own career change, transformation & healing process
- How should you think about boundaries and Terri's book, Boundary Boss.
- What is the Downloaded Love Blueprint and how is it affecting your current relationships?
- What is high-functioning codependency (HFC)? What steps can you take if you exhibit the behaviors of HFC?
- Overinvestment and resentment - what role they play in your relationships, how you see others, and how they see you.
Follow Terri & Learn More:
Get your free resources, order Terri's book(s) and sign up to stay connected at: https://www.terricole.com/hfc/
Learn more about Terri by visiting: https://www.terricole.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Being a high-functioning codependent is
you being overly invested in thefeeling, states, the outcomes,
situations, circumstances of thepeople in your life, to the
detriment of your own internalpeace?
We're all empaths and highlysensitive people and mothers and
lovers, and friends and sisters.
(00:20):
We love our people and wantthem to be happy.
We take it one step furtherInstead of wanting you to have
those things and to be happy, wefeel responsible for creating
those things.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome back to the show.
Hope you're all having aterrific week so far.
We have a great episode for youtoday.
If you are someone who's everwondered if you have good
boundaries in your relationships, maybe there are some
relationships where you feellike you don't have great
boundaries and you want to tryto fix that.
Or there is some codependenceyou have in your life with some
(01:06):
of your relationships.
This is the episode you'regoing to want to listen to.
We have on bestselling authorand psychotherapist, terry Cole.
Terry has written two books,boundary Boss and Too Much and
over her two-decade career as apsychotherapist she has worked
with some of the most amazingclients, from stay-at-home moms
(01:29):
to celebrities and to Fortune500 CEOs.
Terry has such a greatunderstanding of what healthy
relationships look like and howanybody can take relationships
in their life and work to makethem healthier.
If you've ever thought about,well, what is codependence?
I feel like I've heard the termthrown around so much.
(01:51):
What does it mean and how doyou know if you are codependent
in any relationship in your life?
The great thing about thisconversation is that Terry gives
us such tangible explanationsabout what things mean but,
importantly, very tangible tipsfor what we can each do to
enhance relationships in ourlives, to make us feel better
(02:13):
about those relationships andhave a healthier and happier
life.
So I highly recommend that youlisten to the episode with a pen
and paper nearby.
We will also have a link toinformation how you can follow
Terri and learn more about whatshe talks about.
With that, we're going to jumpinto the conversation with Terri
(02:35):
Cole.
Here we go, terri.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Well, thanks for having me, I really appreciate
it.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, I'm looking forward to talking with you.
You and I connected at an eventrecently of amazing women and I
was blown away just by theinsightful comments you were
making during that conversation.
I thought we've got to getTerry on the show, so I would
love if you could first talkabout so.
(03:04):
You started your career as atalent agent a Hollywood talent
agent and you shifted tobecoming a psychotherapist and
relationship expert.
Tell me how that transitionhappened.
How do you go from being a veryhard job, right, a talent agent
to a probably even harder job?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Well, I think there's a lot of similarities in the
job, but for me I was a talentagent and the last five years of
my career I was representingsupermodels and celebrities
negotiating contracts.
And this was in the 90s when,like supermodels were everything
Remember George Michael,freedom, supermodels everywhere.
So I was literally representingmost of those women.
It was a very heady time.
(03:48):
There was a parallel processhappening in my life where I had
started therapy when I was 19.
I stopped drinking when I was21.
So now, between 21 and 28 orhowever old I was when I left
entertainment and 28 or howeverold I was when I left
entertainment, my evolution washappening.
First of all getting sober.
(04:13):
So now you're like, eyes wideopen, everything, feeling all
the things and feeling all thethings I had been numbing before
.
So there was a lot of growth inthat, because I didn't really
know who I was, who does whenthey were 18, 19, 20,.
I was always interested inentertainment, so as I'm sort of
leaping my way up the New Yorkslash Hollywood ladder, I was
kind of bi-coastal at that point.
I was also in pretty intensivepsychotherapy for myself, and
(04:36):
the healthier I got, the more Irealized I just got to get out
of this.
This toxic environment is justnot for me, especially once I
got into the modeling worldwhere I was like, wow, this is
really not cool.
I was going to school to becomea psychotherapist.
I literally applied to oneschool.
I applied to NYU, which ispretty nervous, since I went to
(04:59):
a pretty shitty undergraduateschool and never thought I'd get
in.
But I was like you know what?
I'm just going to do it?
I'm going to apply because I'mnot moving to like Omaha.
I've been living in Manhattanfor years and when I got into
NYU A I was literally shocked, Iswear to God.
But I was also like, oh crap,now I got to go.
Can't be getting into NYU toget your master's and not go.
(05:21):
I actually continued to run theagency while I was doing an
accelerated master's program andI loved it.
And how I got to the point ofknowing I needed to go to school
and needed to change careerswas that I could no longer deny
the fact that I didn't careabout the Pantene deal or the
(05:41):
movie contract that I wasnegotiating.
What I cared about was themental health of my clients.
I was getting people into drugtreatment clinics, weight loss,
eating disorder places Everybodywas getting into therapy.
I was really trying to change atoxic industry and realized
(06:02):
that if I stayed any longer itwas really going to be changing
me.
So instead I pivoted, switchedcareers and just became a
therapist.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, you know, I mean that requires a lot of
insight to really understandwhat part of what you're doing
is appealing to you and whatpart is not.
And I think just hearing youtalk about that, like the fact
that you were able to take alook at your job and say, wow, I
(06:31):
really enjoy the component ofthis that is helping my clients
have that emotional andpsychological stability right
and helping them with the thingsthat they needed, versus the
business of the job itself.
It takes work to get there.
(06:52):
Now, how did the relationshipexpertise because you are a
relationship expert how did thatcome about in terms of your
practice?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well, I think that when you really think about what
we're drawn to and what we'reinterested in in life, for me, I
always believed that we teachwhat we most need to learn.
So I was always most inspiredby and drawn to areas in my life
that were problematic, rightPlaces where I had pain, where I
(07:22):
was like I'm in relationshipsbut I'm not in love, or I'm in
relationships but I'm managingmen instead of heart relating to
them, because I was such a highfunctioning codependent shit
(07:48):
out about love.
So I was very motivated tobecome a relationship expert.
Based on my own pain points andmy own blocks and my own life,
what does it look like to have ahealthy relationship?
Then I really got into it withmy clients and started creating
all these different ways that wecould reveal the unconscious
material that was blocking.
So I came up with yourdownloaded love blueprint.
And what are the questions thatgo in there and what do we
(08:10):
learn from our family of origin?
Hate to say it, we always goback to the scene of the crime,
which is family of origin,because that is literally where
it all starts.
I started seeing that changing,my clients changing and then me
changing, but it took way morethan me becoming a relational
expert to have my eyes wide openenough to find my husband or to
(08:32):
be found by my husband per se.
It really was getting intorecovery from codependency,
learning how to set boundariesand really healing my father
wound, and I did all all ofthose things and then it was
like my husband just fell intomy lap like a feather.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
You have a couple of books that have done
phenomenally well.
You've got the newer book, theToo Much, which we're going to
talk about, but one of thethings that you talk about, you
talk about boundaries.
I think that was one of yourearlier books.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the philosophy that you
have?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
related to boundaries , so that my first book was
called Boundary Boss.
I want you to think about yourboundaries as your own personal
rules of engagement, so thislets other people know what's
okay with us and what's not okaywith us.
According to me, yourboundaries are made up of your
(09:29):
preferences, your desires, yourlimits and your deal breakers.
So not all boundaries arecreated equal, according to me,
because they're not, but they'restill important.
Your preferences matter.
Your deal breakers reallymatter, right, we need to know
(09:49):
what our deal breakers are, whatour preferences are.
But what I found in my therapypractice is that so much of the
time, we are these high levelpeople pleasers and what we
really want is for there to bepeace and for people to be happy
.
So many of my clients, when I'dbe like, okay, well, what are
your preference?
You know they really didn'tknow what brings you joy.
They were like I don't knoweverybody else being happy.
(10:11):
I was like, no, actually can'tbe that.
We've got to find something foryou.
So I feel like with boundaries,it's not enough to know your
preferences, desires, limits anddeal breakers.
You need to know them and thenyou need to have the skills.
You need to be fluent in thelanguage of boundaries to be
(10:31):
able to communicate themtransparently when you so choose
.
And therein lies the rub formost people, because most of my
clients were just like I wasright there at my boss's office,
I just didn't know what to say.
So so much of Boundary Boss, thebook is.
I mean, there's a whole chapterthat's like hundreds of scripts
so that you have the wordsright at your fingertips.
(10:54):
But those?
I could have just done a bookon scripts, but it wouldn't
actually stick right, because weneed to understand the internal
experience.
Why is this so hard?
Why am I so afraid?
And it all goes back to ourtraining, right?
This is be a good girl.
If you don't have anything niceto say, buddy, don't say
(11:15):
anything at all.
Like you know, we all know whatwas expected Be compliant, be
nice, be helpful.
You should give anybody theshirt off your back.
The more self-sacrificing, thebetter you should give anybody
the shirt off your back.
The more self-sacrificing, thebetter, and that's not true, but
that is what we learned, and sothere was so much unlearning
and unraveling that I did inBoundary Boss for the women and
(11:37):
men, because lots of men read it, although I wrote it through
the lens of sort of for thefemale experience.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
So what is the downloaded love blueprint?
What does that mean it?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
means that you have a paradigm in your unconscious
mind around a lot of thingsaround love, around codependency
, around boundaries, aroundfinances, around sex, around
sexuality.
I want you to think about itlike an architectural blueprint
for a house that someone elsedesigned, maybe decades ago,
where, when you're in a familyof origin, again this goes back
to what influences your loveblueprint or your boundary
(12:16):
blueprint your family of origin,the country and culture that
you grew up in, the societalnorms that you grew up in it
could be the number you were inthe family, If you were the
youngest or if you were theoldest.
those things also can influencewhat was expected of you, what
the culture said was expected ofyou.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
What.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I saw with my parents was my mother doing all the
domestic stuff, my father makingall the money, so he had all
the power.
Us being afraid of my father.
We were always hiding thingsfrom my father, not telling him
things.
I mean, he would walk into aroom, me and my three older
sisters.
We would all just be like bye,Like literally scatter like
cockroaches, Can't wait to getaway Because we.
(12:58):
That was the relationship.
So, for me, what did I learn?
Men were people to be managed.
Don't tell the truth ever what.
I cheated on all my boyfriendsuntil I really grew up and got
into therapy because I was likewhatever, who cares about them?
You know the way men are.
That influenced my lovefootprint, because it's what I
saw, because modeled behavior isalso leaves a huge imprint on
(13:22):
us and we, you know, I give youextensive questions that you can
answer and once you startthinking in this way, in this
way therapeutically, you reallystart to be able to figure out
the riddles of your own life,right when you're like why can't
I figure this out?
Oh, you can figure it out, youdefinitely can figure it out.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
So, if so, okay.
So we all have our own loveblueprint, which which, likely,
we didn't even create ourselves,but sort of learned from our
experiences, cultural, thethings you mentioned.
Yep, how, what does it mean tobe a high, functional
(14:05):
codependent?
And is that only related toyour romantic relationships?
Does it go beyond?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
that it definitely does so.
High functioning codependency,which is what the new book it's
called Too Much A Guide toBreaking the Cycle of High
Functioning Codependency.
It was sort of the next step inthe evolution of people who are
figuring out boundaries andfiguring out love.
And now I'm moving into becauseif you're a high functioning
codependent, I'll tell you mydefinition of what it is.
My therapy practice is filledwith women like you and women
(14:34):
like me and our friends and allthe people we were gathering
together with, who are highlycapable, highly competent,
intelligent women, sort ofmasters of the universe, but
doing it all.
We're doing all the things forall the people.
If I would notice a codependentpattern in a relationship but I
would say, hey, what you'redescribing this is codependency.
(14:55):
They would immediately rejectthe notion.
They'd be like yeah, no,incorrect, not me.
They're like terry, I'm notdependent on squat, everyone's
dependent on me.
I'm making all the money, I'mmaking all the moves, I'm doing
all the emotional labor.
When something gets done, it'sbecause I do it.
So who am I dependent on?
And I realized, oh, my clientsdon't know what codependency is,
(15:18):
the notion, that there's aweakness to it and you've got to
be enabling to be a codependentand it's got to be your
romantic relationship.
And those are all myths.
I was left with a conundrum,which is well, how could I help
my clients with the problem thatthey definitely had if they
didn't see themselves mydefinition?
(15:40):
And when I changed it is when Iadded the high functioning to
codependency and told my clientsthey were all able to raise
their hands and say me I'm thehigh functioning to codependency
, and told my clients, they wereall able to raise their hands
and say me I'm the problem.
It's me not to quote Taylor,but I will.
In that instance, it's a factwithout shame.
So instead of being like thatcan't be me, they were like
you're right, I'm burnt out.
(16:02):
I'm exhausted I'm kind ofresentful Like they were able to
now with this reframe, theywere able to see themselves in
the problem.
So if we were to define it, orthe way that I define it is,
being a high functioningcodependent, is you being overly
invested in the feeling, states, the outcomes, situations,
(16:23):
circumstances, finances, careers, friendships of the people in
your life to the detriment ofyour own internal peace?
So I'm going to make thatdistinction because we're all
empaths and highly sensitivepeople and mothers and lovers
and friends and citizens andsisters and obviously we love
(16:46):
our people and we want them tobe happy.
I'm not talking about that highfunction and codependent.
We take it one big fat stepfurther and, instead of wanting
you to have those things and tobe happy, we feel responsible
for creating those things.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And it's interesting when you say it in that way and
you talk about just alsocodependence, because I get the
high functioning part whichmakes it probably more palatable
to women who are go-getters andachievers to say, wait, maybe
it can be me if you add on thehigh functioning part, but it's
(17:26):
the part about the codependencethat I think many of us don't
really understand is, when youjust explained it to me, I
thought more immediatelyactually about my children than
I did about romanticrelationships, Mm-hmm romantic
(17:49):
relationships.
The word you used wasoverinvestment.
How do you know that you're atthat overinvestment point?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
First, let's establish that any flavor of
codependency garden varietyinvolved with an alcoholic or
high functioning, the foundationof that behavioral pattern is
an overt or covert desire orattempt to control other
people's outcomes.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
What does it say that you're?
What does it mean that you'retrying to over-control the
outcome in terms of we love ourpeople?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
It's very hard for us to tolerate the suffering of
others.
Other people's pain makes usextremely uncomfortable.
So we work really hard in allkinds of situations to avoid
conflict, to make sure othersare happy.
We're very outwardly focused.
How do we know if we'reoverinvested?
Well, you can start by taking aresentment inventory.
(18:48):
If you are overly invested inthe outcomes of all these people
so much of the time we reallycan't control it right, they
don't take our advice when wegive them, when we so lovingly
auto-advice give to everyone,not just kids.
There are behaviors and I thinkit might be helpful for
(19:08):
listeners if they could see.
You know, like what are thebehaviors of high functioning
codependency right?
Like what does that actuallylook like?
The first and the easiest oneto identify is we just feel
compelled to fix other people'sproblems.
We feel responsible for fixingother people's problems.
(19:29):
We overgive, we go above andbeyond.
We do things that a lot oftimes people are not asking us
to do.
We are also hyper-independent,meaning we're not great at
asking for other people to helpus.
We're not great at worryingabout our needs.
(19:49):
We want to make sure everyoneelse right, so we're always
ready to jump into damagecontrol for other people.
We're amazing in a crisis.
We can also become frustratedand kind of bitter because
people don't take our advice.
Sometimes it gets exhausting,right, you can get burnt out.
Sometimes it gets exhausting,right, you can get burnt out.
We have the auto accommodatingbehavior.
(20:13):
So, with auto accommodating, Iactually share this story in the
book that I was at a hair salonin New York City on a really
busy Saturday which I usuallydon't go because it's a zoo in
there and they put something inmy hair that I was going to lay
in the sink for like 20 minutesand now the sink line is backing
up.
I'm just laying there like anidiot, like I'm not doing
anything.
I'm just laying there withsomething in my hair.
People need sinks and with eachperson their little robe
(20:38):
getting in line, I'm more andmore and more anxious.
I'm like why aren't they?
I could move and what this is?
This flow could be so muchbetter.
I don't get what they're doing.
Anyway, raise my hand.
I finally I call over theassistant and I'm like you know
I could move and she was like uh, okay, we do this every
Saturday, terry, we're good.
(20:59):
But the point of that story islike what is the cost to me
laying there sweating somethingthat's not on my side of the
street taking responsibility forsomething that's not mine,
right?
I could have been resting mytired brain listening to a
podcast calling my mama.
There was a million betterthings I could have been doing
(21:20):
but instead I was like I need tohelp.
These people are waiting.
It's terrible.
I need to help.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
These people are waiting, it's terrible,
ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
So I tell that story on YouTube and it goes viral.
This is in the beginning, whenI was like I'm definitely on to
something, because even afterall these years of therapy, I
still feel overly responsible.
Because when you're an HFC, youfeel kind of overly responsible
for the world, not just yourfamily or your children or your
husband or your girlfriend,right?
(21:55):
I'm in a situation I'm on a bus, I'm on a train, I'm anywhere.
I mean, I actually opened thebook, the new book, with a story
.
It was probably 22 and therewas a 19 year old kid.
It's 1030 at night.
Obviously there's nobody everon the train track because it's
a Monday night at 10.30 pm.
And then I see this kid waitingon the platform and immediately
(22:16):
my helper pinger is like hmm, Iwonder what this kid's doing
here.
He was 19.
I was probably 22.
So I start chatting him up onthe train and I go what are you
doing?
He was holding a little blanket.
This is why I noticed him andhe said oh, I was hired to like.
I came out to Port Washington, Iwas supposed to drive a car
back to Indiana and then theyjust canceled the gig.
I go.
So where are you going.
(22:37):
Keep in mind, this was the late80s.
He goes I'm going to PennStation, I'm just going to sleep
in the station.
I was like, no, you're not.
Have you been to Penn Station?
Dude, you're going to die.
You're definitely not doingthat.
He was like, well, I don't knowanybody in New York.
I was like, yeah, you do, youknow me.
And this is how I came to takea perfect stranger home to my
(23:01):
studio apartment that I sharedwith another woman, didn't even
call her to see if it was okay.
That's how responsible I felt.
That's how responsible I felt.
So my point with HFCs is thatwe feel not just overly
responsible for the people welove.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
We can also feel overly responsible for the world
, for the people who aresuffering, for the people on the
same plane as us, for some kidon a platform you know it's
interesting, as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, the
name of your other book,Boundary Boss, just kept popping
and like, how do you create theright boundaries for yourself?
(23:37):
So I want to quickly ask you,because we're talking about
these high functioningcodependents as if, okay, this
is a bad thing, which, yes, Ican see that.
But I want to ask what's thedownside of being an HFC?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Well, you don't respect the sovereignty of the
people in your life, so yourrelationships suffer, you're
exhausted and probably have anautoimmune disorder, might end
up with cancer.
Tmj, menopause hits and you canhate everybody, trust me,
because you're exhausted,unchecked.
Hfc-ness is a one-way ticket tobitter land, and that is the
(24:20):
only stop on that train.
You become a total martyr.
Wow.
So we don't want that.
And the saddest part to me, andthe most tragic, is that we
could live our whole livesthinking that we're being in
service of others and ultimatelylive our lives being unknown,
(24:41):
yeah, by the closest people, byyour husband or your wife, or
your grown children or your bestfriends, because we're so busy
thinking about you.
We're so busy making a plan.
We do this thing anticipatoryplanning right.
We're the puppet masters tomanaging people and situations.
(25:03):
Which where are we in any ofthat?
We are not there and peopledon't know us.
And, trust me, I've had womencoming into my therapy practice
in their sixth and seventh andeighth decade of life being like
I've done it all.
I've checked every box.
Kids went to Ivy League schools.
We have money.
I go to SoulCycle three times aweek.
(25:23):
I kind of like my husband.
We travel, I'm on all theseboards.
Literally, they'll say is thisall there is?
Why do I feel so empty?
And I'm like because nobody everknows you.
That's why.
Because you built your lifechecking boxes that somebody
else constructed and nobody inyour life knows you.
(25:46):
Because if we say yes when wereally want to say no to keep
the peace, as Cheryl Richardsonwould say, we create a war
within ourselves and not tomention, like I'm just thinking
about children.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
If you're somebody who has children and you're an
HFC, what that might look likeis not giving your kids agency
to make their own mistakes,because you feel over-invested
in trying to control the outcomefor them, right, and what
you're really doing is puttingthem in a situation where, at
(26:22):
some point, they're not going tohave you there and they're not
going to be able to figure itout.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What you're really doing and this part was so
painful for me when I realizedwhat a raging HFC I was in my
life was you are centeringyourself as the solution to
everyone else's problems.
I want to say something quickly.
There are three things that Ifeel like I want to make sure we
(26:51):
get to that people can takewith them.
Yeah, one if you're an autoadvice giver, if you can't stop
giving people your grade Aadvice your kids, your partner,
your grandkids, whoever it isI'm going to ask you to stop and
instead, instead of tellinganyone what to do or what you
(27:12):
think the first thing you'regoing to say when somebody comes
to you with a problem is okay,before we get into it, tell me
what you think you should do.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
When someone comes to me with a problem, I think what
I might.
My natural instinct is to hearthe problem and then try to
solve it.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I get it, but now you're not gonna.
Now you're going to say to themokay, before I say anything,
what do you think you should do?
And then you're going to stoptalking.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
And if they say I don't know.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I want you to tell me what you would do.
You can say, babe, I will, I'llgive you my two cents.
But right now it's so much morewhat you think is so much more
important than what I think,because it's your life.
So let's spitball it, let'sbrainstorm it.
You don't have to know it,perfect, but what does your gut
say?
Because I trust your gutinstinct.
So do you see the differencebetween us, fearfully and in a
(28:03):
reactionary way, providing whatwe think is the answer?
Yeah, which you don't know.
One of the things, elisa, thatbrought me to all of this
information that was like thispivotal moment in my life was I
had one of my sisters who was inan abusive relationship.
(28:24):
She was actively alcoholic.
She was living in the woods inupstate New York in the middle
of winter.
She had no running water and noelectricity.
The woods in upstate New York,in the middle of winter.
She had no running water and noelectricity, literally.
So that's an HFC's nightmare.
I'm the youngest of four sistersand so my life even though my
(28:47):
life was exploding at that timeI was newly.
I was a bonus mom to threeteenage sons.
Newly, I just got married.
I just switched from being atalent agent to being a
therapist.
My whole life was exploding,but I couldn't stop obsessing
about saving my sister.
So I was crying to my therapist,bawling my eyes out, and I was
like what am I going to do?
I've done everything, I've doneeverything.
And she said, terry, let me askyou something.
What makes you think you knowwhat your sister needs to learn
(29:10):
and how she needs to learn it inthis life?
And I was super defensive and Iwas all like I think we can
agree that she doesn't need todo it with this abusive piece of
shit in the woods withoutrunning water.
And she said I cannot agree,tara, because I'm not God and
neither are you, but do you knowwhat's happening for you in
this situation?
I didn't Hello, tell me what ishappening for me.
(29:33):
And she said you've worked sohard to create this harmonious
life, your sister's dumpsterfire of a life.
Well, she didn't say that I saidthat, but, yes, is messing with
your peace.
You want that to be fixed, soyour pain will end.
I was like, wow, that'sunbelievable.
(29:53):
That's so true, she is notlying.
Now, ego-wise, I had to accept,wow, that my desire to save my
sister was a little bit moreabout me than I would have liked
to have think.
I really wanted it to just belike Mother Teresa type love,
but it was a combination.
Of course.
It was love and control.
(30:15):
I wanted to control.
So she helped me learn aboutboundaries.
She helped me put boundarieswith my sister and say, hey, I
cannot talk about this guy withyou anymore.
I can't talk about thesituation.
I love you.
If you ever want to get out,I'm your person.
And less than nine months later, my sister called me and said
are you still my person?
I said I'm getting in my car.
(30:35):
I picked her up.
She went back to school, gotsober.
My husband and I helped her inan appropriate way.
Instead of her baby sisterputting on the cape and being a
hero of her life story, whichcreates shame and all of this
shit, she is the hero of her ownlife story.
(30:56):
And that sticks.
She's never been in anotherabusive relation, but this was
decades ago.
We have to understand that thecost to our relationships, even
if we're doing it in this verystealthy way, it looks like
support, it feels like love.
We have got to respect people'sright to be sovereign.
(31:18):
And when you think about love,real love, the flex, real love
is not fixing someone's problem.
It's being in the foxholeduring a dark night of the soul
and not treating them like aproblem to fix, but witnessing
them with compassion and loveand accepting where they are.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
What a great way to illustrate the point and thank
you for sharing that because Ithink it gets at the boundary
conversation.
It gets at the high functioningcodependent.
It gets at why it's not goodfor us and people in our lives,
(31:58):
why it's not good for them andour relationships.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
The quality of our relationships, because when you
start recovering from this, yourealize that a lot of times
people either are afraid of usor think that we're boundary
bullies, because we always haveopinions, because we always
think we know what's best forwhat they should be doing.
What can we do differently?
So we've already talked aboutone thing you can do differently
is you're going to askexpansive questions instead of
(32:23):
giving answers.
So that's one Second thingbefore you agree to do anything,
because another element ofbeing a high functioning
codependent is that we'reover-functioning, we're doing
too many things, we're doingmore than our share in many
relationships.
So you're going to have thesetwo questions.
I have the bandwidth to takethis on without becoming
(32:54):
resentful.
And number two do I even effingwant to do it?
Because, as HFCs, we barelyever even ask like do I want to
do this If someone else wants usto?
We're sort of like twistingourself up in a pretzel to try
to figure out how to do it.
We really have to stop and go.
Hey, do I even want to do this?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Which is related to the one before, which is
bandwidth to do it without beingresentful, Because if you don't
really want to do it, even ifyou have the bandwidth though,
you're still going to beresentful.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
That is absolutely accurate.
Another thing that is importantis the boundaries, right?
So we talked about that.
What do we do in our minds,right?
What do we do in our minds whenwe want to change that?
Your friend is telling you I'mgonna start a new bit, a new
etsy business online, and I'mgonna sell something that you
think is like not gonna sell andit's gonna be done right.
(33:44):
Instead of saying what youhonestly think, because her Etsy
shop is her idea, you think andthis is a Mel Robbins actually
has a book out called let themand in your mind you're going to
say better, yeah, yeah, letother people live, man, let
(34:05):
people do what they got to do.
Yes, and then let me.
Let me focus on my life,Because think about this If we
look at the macro of all of thestuff that we talked about,
right, it's all of thisbandwidth and energy out.
I'm focusing on you and thisother person and the people that
I work with and my clients andwhatever it is.
When you get into recovery andyou start thinking, let her, hey
(34:30):
, maybe I'm wrong, why do Ithink I know everything?
Right?
Maybe this is going to be a hitand she's going to be a
billionaire?
I hope so.
Let her, let her live.
What you're also saying is letme hold on to some of my own
bandwidth, let me focus on me,let me up my self-consideration
right.
So this is what I call it.
(34:51):
It's different than you know.
Under this umbrella ofself-consideration is self-care,
is self-love.
Self-consideration is do I wantto do this?
How do I want to spend my time,my energy, my money, right?
What do I want to do?
And when you have beenhabituated into this behavior,
(35:13):
where you're focusing so much onothers, it's rare that we're
really rockingself-consideration all the time
which those three things need tomatter to you more than what
anyone else in the world wants,thinks and feels.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I'm kind of blown away.
It's such an important approachto thinking about this Like
sacrifice myself, like itdoesn't matter if it's hurting
me, yep.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
We must get to the place of surrender, and that for
me when I was younger, it waslike a dirty word what Never
surrender, you know, and yet wemust surrender to.
What is what we realize is thatbeing uncomfortable will not
kill you.
Yeah Right, you'll be okay andother people will be okay, and
(36:15):
we have to be okay withdisappointing other people too.
I want you to think about onthe other side of being an
active HFC.
If you identify with this, ifyou feel like you're doing all
the things for all the people,you feel kind of
underappreciated, you'reexhausted, you're burnt out, is
so much more joy and expansion.
We need time to know who we'rebecoming, to choose who we're
(36:40):
becoming.
You know, when people talk aboutauthentic self, I always feel
like there's thismisunderstanding out there, as
if if you just peel away a bunchof layers, then your authentic
self is just going to pop outand I'm like, no, we need to
work on who do you want tobecome?
What are you willing to do tobecome?
(37:01):
Are you brave emotionally soyou can start setting boundaries
with people?
Tell the truth about what youdo and don't want in your life.
Right, those are choices thatwe make.
I don't think that we just getto peel away layers and suddenly
we have this fully formed,authentic self.
I think we have choices to makeabout who we want to be in our
relationships and in the worldand who we want to be to
(37:24):
ourselves.
You know, and that's the mostimportant, literally the
relationship you have with youis the most important one you'll
ever have with anyone, becauseit sets the bar for every other
relationship that you have.
So if you treat yourself likeshit, you never rest.
When you're exhausted, you'reliterally telling everyone in
your life oh yeah, this is cool,you don't need to consider me,
because I don't consider me.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Terri, I could talk to you for hours.
I want to give people a way tofollow you and to hear more.
What is the best way for themto do it?
Well?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
I have a gift for your people because there's a
lot and I know it's a lot.
So all you do it's HFC littletoolkit that I created.
It's got like a video, it's gota downloadable thing that you
can do.
So you just go to terricolecomforward, slash HFC and you will
find it right there and in thatsame page you'll see there's a
(38:20):
link.
You can buy the book there withall the bonuses.
On that same page you will seethat there's a place where you
can sign up if you want to joinmy membership.
And I meet weekly in mymembership and I love it.
So it's it's just this, butit's just every single week.
So we meet four times a month.
It's women, and mostly women,who identify a lot of them as
(38:42):
being HFC, whether you're theover or the under functioning
type.
But it really is the only wayto to sort of work with me
consistent, consistently.
But I also have a mastermindthat starts in March.
March 1st is when it starts forany entrepreneurial women who
would like to be less exhausted,less bitter, make more money,
figure out their limitingbeliefs.
(39:04):
That is a nine-month deep divewith me and it's very small.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Wow, all right.
Well, we're going to put linksto what you just talked about to
hericoldcom forward.
Slash HFC.
We will make sure that peoplehave access to hear these things
.
This is so helpful, terri.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Thank you for spending this time with me today
.
Thank you so much for invitingme.
I really enjoyed my time withyou.
Being a high-functioning codependent is
you being overly invested in thefeeling, states, the outcomes,
situations, circumstances of thepeople in your life, to the
detriment of your own internalpeace?
We're all empaths and highlysensitive people and mothers and
lovers, and friends and sisters.
(00:20):
We love our people and wantthem to be happy.
We take it one step furtherInstead of wanting you to have
those things and to be happy, wefeel responsible for creating
those things.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome back to the show.
Hope you're all having aterrific week so far.
We have a great episode for youtoday.
If you are someone who's everwondered if you have good
boundaries in your relationships, maybe there are some
relationships where you feellike you don't have great
boundaries and you want to tryto fix that.
Or there is some codependenceyou have in your life with some
(01:06):
of your relationships.
This is the episode you'regoing to want to listen to.
We have on bestselling authorand psychotherapist, terry Cole.
Terry has written two books,boundary Boss and Too Much and
over her two-decade career as apsychotherapist she has worked
with some of the most amazingclients, from stay-at-home moms
(01:29):
to celebrities and to Fortune500 CEOs.
Terry has such a greatunderstanding of what healthy
relationships look like and howanybody can take relationships
in their life and work to makethem healthier.
If you've ever thought about,well, what is codependence?
I feel like I've heard the termthrown around so much.
(01:51):
What does it mean and how doyou know if you are codependent
in any relationship in your life?
The great thing about thisconversation is that Terry gives
us such tangible explanationsabout what things mean but,
importantly, very tangible tipsfor what we can each do to
enhance relationships in ourlives, to make us feel better
(02:13):
about those relationships andhave a healthier and happier
life.
So I highly recommend that youlisten to the episode with a pen
and paper nearby.
We will also have a link toinformation how you can follow
Terri and learn more about whatshe talks about.
With that, we're going to jumpinto the conversation with Terri
(02:35):
Cole.
Here we go, terri.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Well, thanks for having me, I really appreciate
it.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Well, I'm looking forward to talking with you.
You and I connected at an eventrecently of amazing women and I
was blown away just by theinsightful comments you were
making during that conversation.
I thought we've got to getTerry on the show, so I would
love if you could first talkabout so.
(03:04):
You started your career as atalent agent a Hollywood talent
agent and you shifted tobecoming a psychotherapist and
relationship expert.
Tell me how that transitionhappened.
How do you go from being a veryhard job, right, a talent agent
to a probably even harder job?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Well, I think there's a lot of similarities in the
job, but for me I was a talentagent and the last five years of
my career I was representingsupermodels and celebrities
negotiating contracts.
And this was in the 90s when,like supermodels were everything
Remember George Michael,freedom, supermodels everywhere.
So I was literally representingmost of those women.
It was a very heady time.
(03:48):
There was a parallel processhappening in my life where I had
started therapy when I was 19.
I stopped drinking when I was21.
So now, between 21 and 28 orhowever old I was when I left
entertainment and 28 or howeverold I was when I left
entertainment, my evolution washappening.
First of all getting sober.
(04:13):
So now you're like, eyes wideopen, everything, feeling all
the things and feeling all thethings I had been numbing before
.
So there was a lot of growth inthat, because I didn't really
know who I was, who does whenthey were 18, 19, 20,.
I was always interested inentertainment, so as I'm sort of
leaping my way up the New Yorkslash Hollywood ladder, I was
kind of bi-coastal at that point.
I was also in pretty intensivepsychotherapy for myself, and
(04:36):
the healthier I got, the more Irealized I just got to get out
of this.
This toxic environment is justnot for me, especially once I
got into the modeling worldwhere I was like, wow, this is
really not cool.
I was going to school to becomea psychotherapist.
I literally applied to oneschool.
I applied to NYU, which ispretty nervous, since I went to
(04:59):
a pretty shitty undergraduateschool and never thought I'd get
in.
But I was like you know what?
I'm just going to do it?
I'm going to apply because I'mnot moving to like Omaha.
I've been living in Manhattanfor years and when I got into
NYU A I was literally shocked, Iswear to God.
But I was also like, oh crap,now I got to go.
Can't be getting into NYU toget your master's and not go.
(05:21):
I actually continued to run theagency while I was doing an
accelerated master's program andI loved it.
And how I got to the point ofknowing I needed to go to school
and needed to change careerswas that I could no longer deny
the fact that I didn't careabout the Pantene deal or the
(05:41):
movie contract that I wasnegotiating.
What I cared about was themental health of my clients.
I was getting people into drugtreatment clinics, weight loss,
eating disorder places Everybodywas getting into therapy.
I was really trying to change atoxic industry and realized
(06:02):
that if I stayed any longer itwas really going to be changing
me.
So instead I pivoted, switchedcareers and just became a
therapist.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, you know, I mean that requires a lot of
insight to really understandwhat part of what you're doing
is appealing to you and whatpart is not.
And I think just hearing youtalk about that, like the fact
that you were able to take alook at your job and say, wow, I
(06:31):
really enjoy the component ofthis that is helping my clients
have that emotional andpsychological stability right
and helping them with the thingsthat they needed, versus the
business of the job itself.
It takes work to get there.
(06:52):
Now, how did the relationshipexpertise because you are a
relationship expert how did thatcome about in terms of your
practice?
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well, I think that when you really think about what
we're drawn to and what we'reinterested in in life, for me, I
always believed that we teachwhat we most need to learn.
So I was always most inspiredby and drawn to areas in my life
that were problematic, rightPlaces where I had pain, where I
(07:22):
was like I'm in relationshipsbut I'm not in love, or I'm in
relationships but I'm managingmen instead of heart relating to
them, because I was such a highfunctioning codependent shit
(07:48):
out about love.
So I was very motivated tobecome a relationship expert.
Based on my own pain points andmy own blocks and my own life,
what does it look like to have ahealthy relationship?
Then I really got into it withmy clients and started creating
all these different ways that wecould reveal the unconscious
material that was blocking.
So I came up with yourdownloaded love blueprint.
And what are the questions thatgo in there and what do we
(08:10):
learn from our family of origin?
Hate to say it, we always goback to the scene of the crime,
which is family of origin,because that is literally where
it all starts.
I started seeing that changing,my clients changing and then me
changing, but it took way morethan me becoming a relational
expert to have my eyes wide openenough to find my husband or to
(08:32):
be found by my husband per se.
It really was getting intorecovery from codependency,
learning how to set boundariesand really healing my father
wound, and I did all all ofthose things and then it was
like my husband just fell intomy lap like a feather.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
You have a couple of books that have done
phenomenally well.
You've got the newer book, theToo Much, which we're going to
talk about, but one of thethings that you talk about, you
talk about boundaries.
I think that was one of yourearlier books.
Can you tell us a little bitabout the philosophy that you
have?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
related to boundaries , so that my first book was
called Boundary Boss.
I want you to think about yourboundaries as your own personal
rules of engagement, so thislets other people know what's
okay with us and what's not okaywith us.
According to me, yourboundaries are made up of your
(09:29):
preferences, your desires, yourlimits and your deal breakers.
So not all boundaries arecreated equal, according to me,
because they're not, but they'restill important.
Your preferences matter.
Your deal breakers reallymatter, right, we need to know
(09:49):
what our deal breakers are, whatour preferences are.
But what I found in my therapypractice is that so much of the
time, we are these high levelpeople pleasers and what we
really want is for there to bepeace and for people to be happy
.
So many of my clients, when I'dbe like, okay, well, what are
your preference?
You know they really didn'tknow what brings you joy.
They were like I don't knoweverybody else being happy.
(10:11):
I was like, no, actually can'tbe that.
We've got to find something foryou.
So I feel like with boundaries,it's not enough to know your
preferences, desires, limits anddeal breakers.
You need to know them and thenyou need to have the skills.
You need to be fluent in thelanguage of boundaries to be
(10:31):
able to communicate themtransparently when you so choose
.
And therein lies the rub formost people, because most of my
clients were just like I wasright there at my boss's office,
I just didn't know what to say.
So so much of Boundary Boss, thebook is.
I mean, there's a whole chapterthat's like hundreds of scripts
so that you have the wordsright at your fingertips.
(10:54):
But those?
I could have just done a bookon scripts, but it wouldn't
actually stick right, because weneed to understand the internal
experience.
Why is this so hard?
Why am I so afraid?
And it all goes back to ourtraining, right?
This is be a good girl.
If you don't have anything niceto say, buddy, don't say
(11:15):
anything at all.
Like you know, we all know whatwas expected Be compliant, be
nice, be helpful.
You should give anybody theshirt off your back.
The more self-sacrificing, thebetter you should give anybody
the shirt off your back.
The more self-sacrificing, thebetter, and that's not true, but
that is what we learned, and sothere was so much unlearning
and unraveling that I did inBoundary Boss for the women and
(11:37):
men, because lots of men read it, although I wrote it through
the lens of sort of for thefemale experience.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
So what is the downloaded love blueprint?
What does that mean it?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
means that you have a paradigm in your unconscious
mind around a lot of thingsaround love, around codependency
, around boundaries, aroundfinances, around sex, around
sexuality.
I want you to think about itlike an architectural blueprint
for a house that someone elsedesigned, maybe decades ago,
where, when you're in a familyof origin, again this goes back
to what influences your loveblueprint or your boundary
(12:16):
blueprint your family of origin,the country and culture that
you grew up in, the societalnorms that you grew up in it
could be the number you were inthe family, If you were the
youngest or if you were theoldest.
those things also can influencewhat was expected of you, what
the culture said was expected ofyou.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
What.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I saw with my parents was my mother doing all the
domestic stuff, my father makingall the money, so he had all
the power.
Us being afraid of my father.
We were always hiding thingsfrom my father, not telling him
things.
I mean, he would walk into aroom, me and my three older
sisters.
We would all just be like bye,Like literally scatter like
cockroaches, Can't wait to getaway Because we.
(12:58):
That was the relationship.
So, for me, what did I learn?
Men were people to be managed.
Don't tell the truth ever what.
I cheated on all my boyfriendsuntil I really grew up and got
into therapy because I was likewhatever, who cares about them?
You know the way men are.
That influenced my lovefootprint, because it's what I
saw, because modeled behavior isalso leaves a huge imprint on
(13:22):
us and we, you know, I give youextensive questions that you can
answer and once you startthinking in this way, in this
way therapeutically, you reallystart to be able to figure out
the riddles of your own life,right when you're like why can't
I figure this out?
Oh, you can figure it out, youdefinitely can figure it out.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
So, if so, okay.
So we all have our own loveblueprint, which which, likely,
we didn't even create ourselves,but sort of learned from our
experiences, cultural, thethings you mentioned.
Yep, how, what does it mean tobe a high, functional
(14:05):
codependent?
And is that only related toyour romantic relationships?
Does it go beyond?
Speaker 1 (14:12):
that it definitely does so.
High functioning codependency,which is what the new book it's
called Too Much A Guide toBreaking the Cycle of High
Functioning Codependency.
It was sort of the next step inthe evolution of people who are
figuring out boundaries andfiguring out love.
And now I'm moving into becauseif you're a high functioning
codependent, I'll tell you mydefinition of what it is.
My therapy practice is filledwith women like you and women
(14:34):
like me and our friends and allthe people we were gathering
together with, who are highlycapable, highly competent,
intelligent women, sort ofmasters of the universe, but
doing it all.
We're doing all the things forall the people.
If I would notice a codependentpattern in a relationship but I
would say, hey, what you'redescribing this is codependency.
(14:55):
They would immediately rejectthe notion.
They'd be like yeah, no,incorrect, not me.
They're like terry, I'm notdependent on squat, everyone's
dependent on me.
I'm making all the money, I'mmaking all the moves, I'm doing
all the emotional labor.
When something gets done, it'sbecause I do it.
So who am I dependent on?
And I realized, oh, my clientsdon't know what codependency is,
(15:18):
the notion, that there's aweakness to it and you've got to
be enabling to be a codependentand it's got to be your
romantic relationship.
And those are all myths.
I was left with a conundrum,which is well, how could I help
my clients with the problem thatthey definitely had if they
didn't see themselves mydefinition?
(15:40):
And when I changed it is when Iadded the high functioning to
codependency and told my clientsthey were all able to raise
their hands and say me I'm thehigh functioning to codependency
, and told my clients, they wereall able to raise their hands
and say me I'm the problem.
It's me not to quote Taylor,but I will.
In that instance, it's a factwithout shame.
So instead of being like thatcan't be me, they were like
you're right, I'm burnt out.
(16:02):
I'm exhausted I'm kind ofresentful Like they were able to
now with this reframe, theywere able to see themselves in
the problem.
So if we were to define it, orthe way that I define it is,
being a high functioningcodependent, is you being overly
invested in the feeling, states, the outcomes, situations,
(16:23):
circumstances, finances, careers, friendships of the people in
your life to the detriment ofyour own internal peace?
So I'm going to make thatdistinction because we're all
empaths and highly sensitivepeople and mothers and lovers
and friends and citizens andsisters and obviously we love
(16:46):
our people and we want them tobe happy.
I'm not talking about that highfunction and codependent.
We take it one big fat stepfurther and, instead of wanting
you to have those things and tobe happy, we feel responsible
for creating those things.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
And it's interesting when you say it in that way and
you talk about just alsocodependence, because I get the
high functioning part whichmakes it probably more palatable
to women who are go-getters andachievers to say, wait, maybe
it can be me if you add on thehigh functioning part, but it's
(17:26):
the part about the codependencethat I think many of us don't
really understand is, when youjust explained it to me, I
thought more immediatelyactually about my children than
I did about romanticrelationships, Mm-hmm romantic
(17:49):
relationships.
The word you used wasoverinvestment.
How do you know that you're atthat overinvestment point?
Speaker 1 (17:53):
First, let's establish that any flavor of
codependency garden varietyinvolved with an alcoholic or
high functioning, the foundationof that behavioral pattern is
an overt or covert desire orattempt to control other
people's outcomes.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
What does it say that you're?
What does it mean that you'retrying to over-control the
outcome in terms of we love ourpeople?
Speaker 1 (18:23):
It's very hard for us to tolerate the suffering of
others.
Other people's pain makes usextremely uncomfortable.
So we work really hard in allkinds of situations to avoid
conflict, to make sure othersare happy.
We're very outwardly focused.
How do we know if we'reoverinvested?
Well, you can start by taking aresentment inventory.
(18:48):
If you are overly invested inthe outcomes of all these people
so much of the time we reallycan't control it right, they
don't take our advice when wegive them, when we so lovingly
auto-advice give to everyone,not just kids.
There are behaviors and I thinkit might be helpful for
(19:08):
listeners if they could see.
You know, like what are thebehaviors of high functioning
codependency right?
Like what does that actuallylook like?
The first and the easiest oneto identify is we just feel
compelled to fix other people'sproblems.
We feel responsible for fixingother people's problems.
(19:29):
We overgive, we go above andbeyond.
We do things that a lot oftimes people are not asking us
to do.
We are also hyper-independent,meaning we're not great at
asking for other people to helpus.
We're not great at worryingabout our needs.
(19:49):
We want to make sure everyoneelse right, so we're always
ready to jump into damagecontrol for other people.
We're amazing in a crisis.
We can also become frustratedand kind of bitter because
people don't take our advice.
Sometimes it gets exhausting,right, you can get burnt out.
Sometimes it gets exhausting,right, you can get burnt out.
We have the auto accommodatingbehavior.
(20:13):
So, with auto accommodating, Iactually share this story in the
book that I was at a hair salonin New York City on a really
busy Saturday which I usuallydon't go because it's a zoo in
there and they put something inmy hair that I was going to lay
in the sink for like 20 minutesand now the sink line is backing
up.
I'm just laying there like anidiot, like I'm not doing
anything.
I'm just laying there withsomething in my hair.
People need sinks and with eachperson their little robe
(20:38):
getting in line, I'm more andmore and more anxious.
I'm like why aren't they?
I could move and what this is?
This flow could be so muchbetter.
I don't get what they're doing.
Anyway, raise my hand.
I finally I call over theassistant and I'm like you know
I could move and she was like uh, okay, we do this every
Saturday, terry, we're good.
(20:59):
But the point of that story islike what is the cost to me
laying there sweating somethingthat's not on my side of the
street taking responsibility forsomething that's not mine,
right?
I could have been resting mytired brain listening to a
podcast calling my mama.
There was a million betterthings I could have been doing
(21:20):
but instead I was like I need tohelp.
These people are waiting.
It's terrible.
I need to help.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
These people are waiting, it's terrible,
ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
So I tell that story on YouTube and it goes viral.
This is in the beginning, whenI was like I'm definitely on to
something, because even afterall these years of therapy, I
still feel overly responsible.
Because when you're an HFC, youfeel kind of overly responsible
for the world, not just yourfamily or your children or your
husband or your girlfriend,right?
(21:55):
I'm in a situation I'm on a bus, I'm on a train, I'm anywhere.
I mean, I actually opened thebook, the new book, with a story
.
It was probably 22 and therewas a 19 year old kid.
It's 1030 at night.
Obviously there's nobody everon the train track because it's
a Monday night at 10.30 pm.
And then I see this kid waitingon the platform and immediately
(22:16):
my helper pinger is like hmm, Iwonder what this kid's doing
here.
He was 19.
I was probably 22.
So I start chatting him up onthe train and I go what are you
doing?
He was holding a little blanket.
This is why I noticed him andhe said oh, I was hired to like.
I came out to Port Washington, Iwas supposed to drive a car
back to Indiana and then theyjust canceled the gig.
I go.
So where are you going.
(22:37):
Keep in mind, this was the late80s.
He goes I'm going to PennStation, I'm just going to sleep
in the station.
I was like, no, you're not.
Have you been to Penn Station?
Dude, you're going to die.
You're definitely not doingthat.
He was like, well, I don't knowanybody in New York.
I was like, yeah, you do, youknow me.
And this is how I came to takea perfect stranger home to my
(23:01):
studio apartment that I sharedwith another woman, didn't even
call her to see if it was okay.
That's how responsible I felt.
That's how responsible I felt.
So my point with HFCs is thatwe feel not just overly
responsible for the people welove.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
We can also feel overly responsible for the world
, for the people who aresuffering, for the people on the
same plane as us, for some kidon a platform you know it's
interesting, as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, the
name of your other book,Boundary Boss, just kept popping
and like, how do you create theright boundaries for yourself?
(23:37):
So I want to quickly ask you,because we're talking about
these high functioningcodependents as if, okay, this
is a bad thing, which, yes, Ican see that.
But I want to ask what's thedownside of being an HFC?
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Well, you don't respect the sovereignty of the
people in your life, so yourrelationships suffer, you're
exhausted and probably have anautoimmune disorder, might end
up with cancer.
Tmj, menopause hits and you canhate everybody, trust me,
because you're exhausted,unchecked.
Hfc-ness is a one-way ticket tobitter land, and that is the
(24:20):
only stop on that train.
You become a total martyr.
Wow.
So we don't want that.
And the saddest part to me, andthe most tragic, is that we
could live our whole livesthinking that we're being in
service of others and ultimatelylive our lives being unknown,
(24:41):
yeah, by the closest people, byyour husband or your wife, or
your grown children or your bestfriends, because we're so busy
thinking about you.
We're so busy making a plan.
We do this thing anticipatoryplanning right.
We're the puppet masters tomanaging people and situations.
(25:03):
Which where are we in any ofthat?
We are not there and peopledon't know us.
And, trust me, I've had womencoming into my therapy practice
in their sixth and seventh andeighth decade of life being like
I've done it all.
I've checked every box.
Kids went to Ivy League schools.
We have money.
I go to SoulCycle three times aweek.
(25:23):
I kind of like my husband.
We travel, I'm on all theseboards.
Literally, they'll say is thisall there is?
Why do I feel so empty?
And I'm like because nobody everknows you.
That's why.
Because you built your lifechecking boxes that somebody
else constructed and nobody inyour life knows you.
(25:46):
Because if we say yes when wereally want to say no to keep
the peace, as Cheryl Richardsonwould say, we create a war
within ourselves and not tomention, like I'm just thinking
about children.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
If you're somebody who has children and you're an
HFC, what that might look likeis not giving your kids agency
to make their own mistakes,because you feel over-invested
in trying to control the outcomefor them, right, and what
you're really doing is puttingthem in a situation where, at
(26:22):
some point, they're not going tohave you there and they're not
going to be able to figure itout.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
What you're really doing and this part was so
painful for me when I realizedwhat a raging HFC I was in my
life was you are centeringyourself as the solution to
everyone else's problems.
I want to say something quickly.
There are three things that Ifeel like I want to make sure we
(26:51):
get to that people can takewith them.
Yeah, one if you're an autoadvice giver, if you can't stop
giving people your grade Aadvice your kids, your partner,
your grandkids, whoever it isI'm going to ask you to stop and
instead, instead of tellinganyone what to do or what you
(27:12):
think the first thing you'regoing to say when somebody comes
to you with a problem is okay,before we get into it, tell me
what you think you should do.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
When someone comes to me with a problem, I think what
I might.
My natural instinct is to hearthe problem and then try to
solve it.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I get it, but now you're not gonna.
Now you're going to say to themokay, before I say anything,
what do you think you should do?
And then you're going to stoptalking.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
And if they say I don't know.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I want you to tell me what you would do.
You can say, babe, I will, I'llgive you my two cents.
But right now it's so much morewhat you think is so much more
important than what I think,because it's your life.
So let's spitball it, let'sbrainstorm it.
You don't have to know it,perfect, but what does your gut
say?
Because I trust your gutinstinct.
So do you see the differencebetween us, fearfully and in a
(28:03):
reactionary way, providing whatwe think is the answer?
Yeah, which you don't know.
One of the things, elisa, thatbrought me to all of this
information that was like thispivotal moment in my life was I
had one of my sisters who was inan abusive relationship.
(28:24):
She was actively alcoholic.
She was living in the woods inupstate New York in the middle
of winter.
She had no running water and noelectricity.
The woods in upstate New York,in the middle of winter.
She had no running water and noelectricity, literally.
So that's an HFC's nightmare.
I'm the youngest of four sistersand so my life even though my
(28:47):
life was exploding at that timeI was newly.
I was a bonus mom to threeteenage sons.
Newly, I just got married.
I just switched from being atalent agent to being a
therapist.
My whole life was exploding,but I couldn't stop obsessing
about saving my sister.
So I was crying to my therapist,bawling my eyes out, and I was
like what am I going to do?
I've done everything, I've doneeverything.
And she said, terry, let me askyou something.
What makes you think you knowwhat your sister needs to learn
(29:10):
and how she needs to learn it inthis life?
And I was super defensive and Iwas all like I think we can
agree that she doesn't need todo it with this abusive piece of
shit in the woods withoutrunning water.
And she said I cannot agree,tara, because I'm not God and
neither are you, but do you knowwhat's happening for you in
this situation?
I didn't Hello, tell me what ishappening for me.
(29:33):
And she said you've worked sohard to create this harmonious
life, your sister's dumpsterfire of a life.
Well, she didn't say that I saidthat, but, yes, is messing with
your peace.
You want that to be fixed, soyour pain will end.
I was like, wow, that'sunbelievable.
(29:53):
That's so true, she is notlying.
Now, ego-wise, I had to accept,wow, that my desire to save my
sister was a little bit moreabout me than I would have liked
to have think.
I really wanted it to just belike Mother Teresa type love,
but it was a combination.
Of course.
It was love and control.
(30:15):
I wanted to control.
So she helped me learn aboutboundaries.
She helped me put boundarieswith my sister and say, hey, I
cannot talk about this guy withyou anymore.
I can't talk about thesituation.
I love you.
If you ever want to get out,I'm your person.
And less than nine months later, my sister called me and said
are you still my person?
I said I'm getting in my car.
(30:35):
I picked her up.
She went back to school, gotsober.
My husband and I helped her inan appropriate way.
Instead of her baby sisterputting on the cape and being a
hero of her life story, whichcreates shame and all of this
shit, she is the hero of her ownlife story.
(30:56):
And that sticks.
She's never been in anotherabusive relation, but this was
decades ago.
We have to understand that thecost to our relationships, even
if we're doing it in this verystealthy way, it looks like
support, it feels like love.
We have got to respect people'sright to be sovereign.
(31:18):
And when you think about love,real love, the flex, real love
is not fixing someone's problem.
It's being in the foxholeduring a dark night of the soul
and not treating them like aproblem to fix, but witnessing
them with compassion and loveand accepting where they are.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
What a great way to illustrate the point and thank
you for sharing that because Ithink it gets at the boundary
conversation.
It gets at the high functioningcodependent.
It gets at why it's not goodfor us and people in our lives,
(31:58):
why it's not good for them andour relationships.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
The quality of our relationships, because when you
start recovering from this, yourealize that a lot of times
people either are afraid of usor think that we're boundary
bullies, because we always haveopinions, because we always
think we know what's best forwhat they should be doing.
What can we do differently?
So we've already talked aboutone thing you can do differently
is you're going to askexpansive questions instead of
(32:23):
giving answers.
So that's one Second thingbefore you agree to do anything,
because another element ofbeing a high functioning
codependent is that we'reover-functioning, we're doing
too many things, we're doingmore than our share in many
relationships.
So you're going to have thesetwo questions.
I have the bandwidth to takethis on without becoming
(32:54):
resentful.
And number two do I even effingwant to do it?
Because, as HFCs, we barelyever even ask like do I want to
do this If someone else wants usto?
We're sort of like twistingourself up in a pretzel to try
to figure out how to do it.
We really have to stop and go.
Hey, do I even want to do this?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Which is related to the one before, which is
bandwidth to do it without beingresentful, Because if you don't
really want to do it, even ifyou have the bandwidth though,
you're still going to beresentful.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
That is absolutely accurate.
Another thing that is importantis the boundaries, right?
So we talked about that.
What do we do in our minds,right?
What do we do in our minds whenwe want to change that?
Your friend is telling you I'mgonna start a new bit, a new
etsy business online, and I'mgonna sell something that you
think is like not gonna sell andit's gonna be done right.
(33:44):
Instead of saying what youhonestly think, because her Etsy
shop is her idea, you think andthis is a Mel Robbins actually
has a book out called let themand in your mind you're going to
say better, yeah, yeah, letother people live, man, let
(34:05):
people do what they got to do.
Yes, and then let me.
Let me focus on my life,Because think about this If we
look at the macro of all of thestuff that we talked about,
right, it's all of thisbandwidth and energy out.
I'm focusing on you and thisother person and the people that
I work with and my clients andwhatever it is.
When you get into recovery andyou start thinking, let her, hey
(34:30):
, maybe I'm wrong, why do Ithink I know everything?
Right?
Maybe this is going to be a hitand she's going to be a
billionaire?
I hope so.
Let her, let her live.
What you're also saying is letme hold on to some of my own
bandwidth, let me focus on me,let me up my self-consideration
right.
So this is what I call it.
(34:51):
It's different than you know.
Under this umbrella ofself-consideration is self-care,
is self-love.
Self-consideration is do I wantto do this?
How do I want to spend my time,my energy, my money, right?
What do I want to do?
And when you have beenhabituated into this behavior,
(35:13):
where you're focusing so much onothers, it's rare that we're
really rockingself-consideration all the time
which those three things need tomatter to you more than what
anyone else in the world wants,thinks and feels.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
I'm kind of blown away.
It's such an important approachto thinking about this Like
sacrifice myself, like itdoesn't matter if it's hurting
me, yep.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
We must get to the place of surrender, and that for
me when I was younger, it waslike a dirty word what Never
surrender, you know, and yet wemust surrender to.
What is what we realize is thatbeing uncomfortable will not
kill you.
Yeah Right, you'll be okay andother people will be okay, and
(36:15):
we have to be okay withdisappointing other people too.
I want you to think about onthe other side of being an
active HFC.
If you identify with this, ifyou feel like you're doing all
the things for all the people,you feel kind of
underappreciated, you'reexhausted, you're burnt out, is
so much more joy and expansion.
We need time to know who we'rebecoming, to choose who we're
(36:40):
becoming.
You know, when people talk aboutauthentic self, I always feel
like there's thismisunderstanding out there, as
if if you just peel away a bunchof layers, then your authentic
self is just going to pop outand I'm like, no, we need to
work on who do you want tobecome?
What are you willing to do tobecome?
(37:01):
Are you brave emotionally soyou can start setting boundaries
with people?
Tell the truth about what youdo and don't want in your life.
Right, those are choices thatwe make.
I don't think that we just getto peel away layers and suddenly
we have this fully formed,authentic self.
I think we have choices to makeabout who we want to be in our
relationships and in the worldand who we want to be to
(37:24):
ourselves.
You know, and that's the mostimportant, literally the
relationship you have with youis the most important one you'll
ever have with anyone, becauseit sets the bar for every other
relationship that you have.
So if you treat yourself likeshit, you never rest.
When you're exhausted, you'reliterally telling everyone in
your life oh yeah, this is cool,you don't need to consider me,
because I don't consider me.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Terri, I could talk to you for hours.
I want to give people a way tofollow you and to hear more.
What is the best way for themto do it?
Well?
Speaker 1 (37:56):
I have a gift for your people because there's a
lot and I know it's a lot.
So all you do it's HFC littletoolkit that I created.
It's got like a video, it's gota downloadable thing that you
can do.
So you just go to terricolecomforward, slash HFC and you will
find it right there and in thatsame page you'll see there's a
(38:20):
link.
You can buy the book there withall the bonuses.
On that same page you will seethat there's a place where you
can sign up if you want to joinmy membership.
And I meet weekly in mymembership and I love it.
So it's it's just this, butit's just every single week.
So we meet four times a month.
It's women, and mostly women,who identify a lot of them as
(38:42):
being HFC, whether you're theover or the under functioning
type.
But it really is the only wayto to sort of work with me
consistent, consistently.
But I also have a mastermindthat starts in March.
March 1st is when it starts forany entrepreneurial women who
would like to be less exhausted,less bitter, make more money,
figure out their limitingbeliefs.
(39:04):
That is a nine-month deep divewith me and it's very small.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
Wow, all right.
Well, we're going to put linksto what you just talked about to
hericoldcom forward.
Slash HFC.
We will make sure that peoplehave access to hear these things
.
This is so helpful, terri.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Thank you for spending this time with me today
.
Thank you so much for invitingme.
I really enjoyed my time withyou.
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