In this episode of the Women on the Move Podcast, Dr. Topeka K. Sam sits down with host Sam Saperstein to discuss her journey from incarceration to nonprofit founder. Topeka is the founder and executive director for The Ladies of Hope Ministries and the co-founder of Hope House NYC, a safe housing space for women and girls. She's a pioneer in the fight for the decriminalization and decarceration of women and girls and works relentlessly to provide resources and support for those transitioning back to society.
A new start
After spending three and a half years in federal prison and seeing all of the disparities and harms that women and girls had faced, Topeka came home determined to be a voice for those still incarcerated. “I knew when I came home because of the support services, the family, community that I had, that I could do anything, but the sisters that I left behind would not,” she tells Sam. “And so as God would have it, I was really just moved to start my organization, The Ladies of Hope Ministries, while I was incarcerated. And when I was released in 2015, I hit the ground running.”
Topeka says two things drove her mission: to provide safe housing for women after incarcerations, and to create platforms for women to be able to use their voices. “I felt that if we saw the faces of women who were incarcerated and heard their voices, that there would be no woman or girl in prison or jail,” she says. “I'm a firm believer that you can hold people accountable by healing them, and prisons and jails don't do that.”
Expanding and looking to the future
85 percent of incarcerated women are mothers of dependent children and heads of households, and 95 percent have experienced some type of sexual trauma or violence. In addition, 90 percent have mental health challenges. “There are drivers that lead to incarceration,” she explains, citing some alarming statistics for incarcerated women who have experienced some form of abuse, violence, trauma or mental health challenges. “As we know, women often are the most marginalized, the most vulnerable population and have the least support and services, no matter what industry you're in. And so going into prison, it's the same harms and the same drivers, but yet we come home and there's not enough organizations [to support] or opportunities when we come home.”
Since starting her nonprofit in New York, Topeka has expanded to several additional states. Together with United States Department of Housing and Urban Development Rapid Re-housing program, they are now helping families get their own apartments in New York, in Prince George's County, Maryland, and in New Orleans, and helping them pay rent for a year. They also have a workforce development initiative, which includes certification programs in digital marketing, project management, IT, and AI.
Topeka is also a co-founder of a FinTech company, EPIC Financial that focuses on making sure that justice-impacted people have financial education on savings and banking. “It’s about building the community,” she stresses. “Because if our families are strong, then it also helps that person who is reentering to become strong.”
Being a role model in the community, and in particular demonstrating that a criminal record doesn’t have to define you, is extremely important to Topeka. “When you come from a limited resource community, you can't see that you can have more unless you see someone who's lived that experience,” she says. “So that for me is the greatest gift, to be able to show women that it doesn't matter where we come from or what we've experienced that we can be and do it whatever it is that we want.”
As far as inspiring other women, Topeka offers some simple advice. You have to believe in yourself and give yourself permission to follow your dreams and your ambition. “Know that many of us are incarcerated before we even go to a prison,” she says. “You can be living in a prison in your mind, in your community, before you've even gotten through what I've been through. You can change that today. Each day, God gives us grace. We can get up every morning and we can decide.”
Disclaimer: The speakers’ opinions belong to them and may differ from opinions of JPMorgan Chase & Co. and its affiliates. Views presented on this podcast are those of the speakers; they are as of October 15th, 2024 and they may not materialize.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
- I wanted to create platforms for women
to be able to use their voice
because I felt that ifwe saw the faces of women
who were incarceratedand heard their voices,
that there would be no womanor girl in prison or jail.
I'm a firm believer that youcan hold people accountable
by healing them and prisonsand jails don't do that.
(00:22):
- Welcome to the "WomenOn the Move" podcast,
I'm your host, Sam Saperstein.
In today's episode,
I'm speaking with Dr. Topeka K. Sam,
a remarkable individual whose experience
from incarceration led her to create
and advocate for solutions
to help women transitioningback into society.
Dr. Sam is the founderand executive director
(00:42):
for the Ladies of Hope Ministries
and the co-founder of a safe housing space
for women and girls, Hope House NYC.
She's a pioneer in the fight
for the decriminalization
and decarceration of women and girls,
relentlessly working toprovide resources and support
for those transitioning back to society.
With her unwavering dedicationand profound impact,
(01:04):
Dr. Sam is a beacon of hope
and empowerment for countless individuals.
Topeka, welcome to the"Women on the Move" podcast,
it is really great to have you on with us.
- Thank you so much for havingme, Sam, it's such an honor.
- I'd love to start withyour own story, you know,
how you got to where you are today,
why you are an advocatein the way you are.
Can you tell us about that?
- Yeah, sure.
(01:25):
Well, how I'm here today
is through my ownjourney of incarceration,
spending three and a halfyears in federal prison
and seeing all of thedisparities and harms
that women and girls had faced.
I knew when I came home
because of the support services,
the family, community that I had,
that I could do anything and,
but the sisters that Ileft behind would not.
(01:47):
And so, as God would have it,
I was really just movedto start my organization,
the Ladies of Hope Ministries,while I was incarcerated.
And when I was released in2015, I hit the ground running.
- So you really had this thought and idea
before you left prison.
- Yeah.- You wanted to do this.
What inspired you to dothat then, originally?
- Ooh, a lot.
(02:07):
I would say when I wasin, the women that I met,
when I started my journeyin the county jail,
they were really poor,black, white, brown,
low levels of education, lowsocioeconomic backgrounds,
and really no opportunity.
When I got to federal prison,
I was incarcerated with doctors,lawyers, senators, judges,
And it was such a big difference,
(02:29):
and women were beingcriminalized for sex work
because they had to or substance misuse
because of the trauma and things
that they faced throughout their lives.
And no opportunities tocome home to, not a home,
85% of all women are mothersof dependent children
and having to get their children back,
and all the things
(02:49):
that women face thatmen don't coming home.
- Yeah.
- And so, because I knewthat I could, you know,
just as a small child,
I was always very justdriven and ambitious
and I knew that I could come and I did.
And so, that's how I really started
from the sisters that I met.
- It's such a stark change or difference
between the women youencountered in the various areas,
(03:10):
I think that's really so powerful
that you took that experience
knowing that others were leaving prison
and not having the same resources
that you did.- Oh, sure.
- So when you thought aboutLadies of Hope Ministries
from the start,
what was it that youreally wanted to provide?
What, at the core of it, wasimportant to that mission?
- So it was two things,one was safe housing
because a lot of the women that I met
(03:31):
didn't know where they would go.
If they would come home,
it would either they wouldhave to go back into sex work
just to get a safe place to live
or in an abusive relationship, again,
to get a safe place to live.
And I wanted to create platforms
for women to be able to use their voice,
because I felt that if we saw the faces
of women who were incarceratedand heard their voices,
(03:51):
that there would be no womanor girl in prison or jail,
I'm a firm believer that youcan hold people accountable
by healing them, and prisonsand jails don't do that.
- Mm, oh, thank you for doing that,
I think that platform is sovital and the visibility.
- Yes.
- As you're talking about right now.
So justice reform is such a huge topic
and so important for oursociety to deal with.
How do you focus on the specific areas
(04:13):
that you think are themost vital to support?
- Yeah, so for me, you know,I cannot advocate for myself
or anyone else unless my basichuman rights are met first.
- [Sam] Mm.
- Access to safe and affordable housing
an equitable opportunityin a growth-focused career,
quality healthcare, and thenthe power to use my voice
and to share my experience to change laws.
And so, that's where it was for me,
(04:35):
starting at the core of what we all need.
- Yeah.
- When I went to college, I came home,
I was able to live with my parents, right?
You know, people comeback from the military,
they're safe if they havea safe place to live.
- [Sam] Hmm.
- Incarceration is no different.
- Right, right.
What do you wish peopleknew about women in prison?
What are some facts or experiences
that people might notknow that they should?
(04:56):
- Right, so I mentioned 85% are mothers
of dependent childrenand heads of households.
- Yeah.
- 95% have experienced
some type of sexual trauma or violence.
90% have some sort of mental health issue,
whether it's from somethingsmall, if you will,
or something larger like schizophrenia.
(05:18):
And so, there are driversthat lead to incarceration,
as we know, women oftenare the most marginalized,
the most vulnerablepopulation, and, you know,
have the less support in services,
no matter what industry you're in.
And so, going into prison,
it's the same harms and the same drivers,
but yet we come home andthere's not enough organizations
or opportunities when we come home.
(05:39):
- Yeah, I mean there's no safety net
is what you're saying in so many ways,
and so many of these problemsstay with women throughout,
right when they're getting out.
Do you find that the system
exacerbates some of these things?
- A hundred percent,
because there's no supportservice while you're in.
When I was in,
our adult continuing education courses
were knitting, crocheting,plastic canvas, and beading,
(06:02):
so that's what they gave us to do, right?
- Not necessarily yourlivelihoods going forward.
- Exactly, you know?
Where men, they get CDLopportunities, you know,
sometimes just differenttrades that they get to,
we don't, you know?
And then, also, when we think about,
you know, pregnant womenwho are incarcerated,
the fact that they're shacklingwomen during child labor,
(06:24):
still in over 20 states in this country,
we were fortunate enoughto lead the effort
on passing over 16 piecesof legislations to end that.
But it still happens.
- Right, right, that's so important.
And given that it's so different
state by state in this country,
how do you have to reallymobilize at that local level
and how hard is that todo over and over again
when things might be so different?
(06:45):
- It's exhausting.
- Yeah.
- Incredibly hard.
But what we have done
is we galvanize otherdirectly affected women.
- Mm.
- And I say justice impacted
because there are those of uswho actually lived in prisons,
there's those who work in prisons,
there's those who have loved ones,
but we're all impactedby the justice system.
And so, we bring communitiesof women together
and family members thatcare about this issue,
(07:09):
and locally, we have thosesisters lead the work.
- Yeah, I mean, for youto raise the family aspect
is so invaluable for us to remember,
it is not just the women and people
in prison themselves.- That's right.
- It's the whole family and the children
and everybody attached to that.
Do you do also work forthe families as well?
And what kind of supportservices do you provide for them?
(07:29):
- A hundred percent, so alot of our housing programs,
for example, with theRapid Rehousing with HUD
we help families in gettingtheir own apartments
in New York, PrinceGeorge's County, Maryland,
and also New Orleans, Louisiana,
with helping them paytheir rent for a year
in their own apartment, sothat's permanent housing.
We have our workforce development
(07:50):
so we do certificationprograms, digital marketing,
project management, IT, AI,
we partnered with Google
to do a digital literacyskills training program.
I also, I'm a co-founderof a FinTech company
that focus on making surethat justice impacted people
have financial education,savings and banking,
(08:12):
amongst many other things.
But it is about building the community
because if our families are strong,
then it also helps that person
who is reentering to become strong.
- And thinking about how you did things.
Did you have this full vision
when you left of what allthese services would look like?
Or did you come out andsort of one step at a time,
start building some of these things?
'Cause it's very expansivewhat you're already providing.
(08:32):
- No, it is, I had a large vision.
I knew I was going to scale,
I knew I wanted to bein more than one state.
The additional programscame from the need.
- [Sam] Mm.
- So I'm the type of person that
if it's not broke, why fix it?
So I'm not going to create something
that someone else, I found gaps.
And where there were gaps
and I would hear it overand over in my travels,
(08:53):
that's when I would create programs
in order to fulfill those necessary gaps.
- That's great.- And with COVID,
our work became even more vital
because now you have morepeople who are in the house.
But it was also, we have earsbecause now we can get people
on the computer and we canget them to take programming
because people were losing their jobs,
you know, there were thingshappening in households,
especially between menand women with more PTSD,
(09:15):
more trauma and moreintimate partner violence.
And so, we were ableto help to support that
during that time as well.
- That is great, that is great.
So when you think about leadershipin the nonprofit sector,
I think there's certain skills you need
and probably certain things
that you wouldn't do inthe corporate sector,
raise money, for example.
- Yeah, that part.- Always thinking
of doing that, you know,
(09:36):
what are the essential leadership skills
you found to be so important to you
as you've led and createdand launched your company?
- I would say, one,
I'm not a fearful person, right?
And I think you have tobe really, really strong
and powerful in yourself.
(09:57):
I think if you lead in fear,
it causes more harm to the people
that you're trying to lead.
And so, having great courageis something you have to have,
I think, not being ashamed, right?
The fact is that, yes,I lived this experience,
it was three years in my40 something years of life.
And so, it does not define who I am,
all it did was give me an idea
(10:18):
of what I needed to doand help me on my journey.
Also, I would say that, ifyou have a lived experience,
it's critical to lead a nonprofit
because you are now really familiar
with the populationyou're wanting to serve.
And so, it comes with adeep passion about the work,
because you really can't lead
if you're not passionate in nonprofit,
(10:40):
because it doesn't pay, you know,
it's not about trying toget rich in this work,
other than in spirit.- Yeah.
- But outside of that, you know,
you can't pay your billswith that, you know?
So you really have to be grounded
in whatever the mission, you know,
mission driven and be a servant leader.
- Mm.
- Because you do not get, again, kudos,
you don't get a lot of claps,
(11:00):
you don't get a lot of pats on the back,
you have to be a self-starter,
you have to know that you'redoing this for a greater good.
And that's really, youknow, I would say keys to,
you know, being a leader in this space.
- I have to imagine that whenyou find like-minded souls
who are doing this workfrom that same passion
that you're coming from,
you really have a kinship
and you can really share things
in a way that maybe others ina corporate workplace can't.
(11:24):
How are those relationships?What do they mean to you?
The people that you've met along the way,
the people you work with day to day,
talk about that family,
if you will, of peoplewho are helping you.
- Yeah, so it's beautiful, right?
Especially around women'cause it's a sisterhood.
- Yeah.
- And we're able tocommunicate with each other.
We just had an event in Harlem recently,
(11:44):
and to have so many women come up to me
to say the impact thatI've made on their lives,
and not even knowing them, you know,
seeing women cry, likeI'm a whole celebrity,
and it was like, I kind of smiled
because I was like, wow, you know,
but they were so nervous tomeet me, and it was like,
"But I've experiencedthe same thing you did,"
which then gives them courage to speak.
- [Sam] Hmm.
(12:04):
- But I think it's just a beautiful thing
to be able to inspire people
to help to transform their life.
Because if you don'tsee it, you can't be it.
And so, often, you know,
so many people come fromspecific communities,
whether, I mean, I was raisedin a very privileged community
in Manorville, Long Island.
But when I got to college
(12:25):
at an HBCU in Baltimore, Maryland,
it was completely different.
So my lived experiences,even at that time,
was different than thecommunity that I came from,
that I'm a part of.- Yeah.
- So even when you may come from
a limited resource community,
you can't see that you can have more
unless you see someone
who's lived that experienceand got out of it.
So that, for me, is the greatest gift
(12:46):
to be able to show women that
it doesn't matter where we come from
or what we've experienced,
that we can be and dowhatever it is that we want.
- That was powerful, thankyou, I really appreciate that.
I love how you live that all the time,
I'm sure there are daysthat are very tough.
- Mm-hm.
- This is a tough field to be in,
you're dealing withreal people, real lives.
How do you stay not only motivated,
(13:06):
but strong to keepcarrying this work forward?
- Well, one is God,
my faith and my relationship with God
is very, very important.
I wouldn't have gotten through
what I went throughincarcerated without God.
While I had visits every week,
I had, you know, moneyon my books, you know,
I had great support servicesthrough my family and friends,
(13:27):
those dark nights alone,
I wouldn't have got throughit if I didn't have God,
so that's number one.
Number two, it is just my practice, right?
It is going into prisons,
I was in three prisonsin the last two days.
- Wow.
- And so, continuing to be connected
to the work in that way and to the people,
because that way it is always familiar
(13:47):
because we can forget, you know?
It's easy to say, I am nineyears now removed incarceration,
but going in continues tokeep me focused on my why
and God's why for my life,
and that's what justmotivates me and drives me.
- Oh, that is great.
And so, you're busy.
- Very.- Many states,
we've talked about this,you've been so many places.
(14:08):
How do you maintain and managewhat you have to get done
while you're always on the road?
You're a super organized person?
- No.- Do you have a staff?
- Not at all.
- Tell us the tips and tricks,
because we might also be like that.
- Well, you know, numberone, I have a great team,
you're only as strongas your team, you know?
So I will say that, shout outto Ladies of Hope Ministries.
(14:28):
- [Sam] Yes.
- Shout out to FRSH, my FRSH Community,
shout out to all of my partners,
because you have to knowyour strengths, right?
And organization is not one.
I will say that I do keep a calendar, and-
- On paper or digital?
- Digital.- You're digital, okay.
- And if it's not on thecalendar, it doesn't exist.
So that has been kind of like my crutch.
(14:51):
I wake up every morningaround 5, 4:30, 5:00 AM.
- Wow.- I meditate.
- Wow, early.- I pray,
I go through emails, that'swhen I'm most productive, early.
But also, I've met somany successful people,
very wealthy people and that'sa practice that they do too.
- [Sam] Hmm.
- It's a fun fact I've heard,
you know, I get calls in the morning,
six o'clock in the morning from people
(15:12):
that are really out theredoing even more than me,
so it motivates me to keep, you know,
having these regular practices.
I talk to my mom regularly,you know, my friends regularly,
so that way it's disconnectingme from the work.
- Yes.
- Because it's so heavy,
I have to have some funand laughter in my life.
Because without it, you know, it's hard.
(15:34):
- Yeah, for sure.
- So that's my, I guess, you know,
and I like to put makeupon and get pretty,
so there's that too.- As you should.
I love that.- You know?
- So in this space, this nonprofit world,
when we do provide so manysocial services like you do,
it's so important to takecare of the employees,
the frontline employees who do this work.
How do you promotewellness among your staff?
(15:55):
- Yeah, so it is incredibly important,
that's a great question.
We have done retreats
where we've been able to send employees,
you know, to go away for a few days,
we did a retreat collectively
where the entire team went away together
for a strategic plan and retreat.
We also partner withdifferent technology apps
to make sure that peoplehave wellness opportunities
(16:17):
right at their fingertips.
So we encourage, eventhrough, you know, HR,
I was told to give people,you know, extra wellness days,
and so, I did that too.
And I listen, I have anopen door policy, you know,
people can call me, textme, not all times of night,
but most of the time toreach out so that they can,
you know, have that connection with me
(16:37):
if they need something.
- That's great, it makes a difference.
- [Topeka] Mm-hm.
- So tell us about what Ladiesof Hope Ministries has done.
What are you most proud of?
Tell us about those goals,those accomplishments,
that when you think of, youknow, it really lights you up?
- Yeah, so we've impactedover 5,000 women and girls.
- Incredible.
- We have scaled to now,outside of just New York,
(16:59):
as I mentioned, New Orleans, Maryland,
we have a hub in Miami
where we're going to be starting classes
in English and Spanish there.
- [Sam] Oh, great.
- And in Detroit, whereI have other partners
and we have a building for 30 units there,
we're going to expandour work there as well
to help people in the city of Detroit.
We had opened a house in Trinidad
to help women in the Caribbean.
- That's great.
(17:20):
- Do some program in Bogota, Columbia,
through our Grow With Google program,
we've helped to impact over 100,000 people
with digital skills training.
Ugh, I'm just like-
- That's a lot already.- The fact that, you know,
we have a great staff
and I'm able to help to supportwomen and their families,
you know, I have one man on staff.
You know, I love him, my CFO.- Yes, yes, men are welcome.
(17:41):
- Oh yes, they're welcome.
- For sure.
- But we do support, you know,
staff members have beenable to purchase homes
since being with the organization,
some who've been directly affected.
We do hire people who've liveddifferent lived experiences,
whether they've been incarcerated,
been through domestic violence,have been in the military.
- [Sam] Mm.
- You know, or law enforcement.
(18:03):
So, you know, I'm just proud of what,
you know, God has gracedme with to create.
And, you know, just hopeful that
it becomes easier, you know?
As you mentioned, it isa nonprofit business.
You know, we're not just a program
and so it takes real dollars in order
to continue to fund ourwork and scale our work.
And while the incarceration rate of women,
(18:24):
domestic violence of women,
and survivors, it'sconsistently increasing,
it is not decreasing,irrespective of what we hear that
that makes our work justthat much more important.
- Yeah, for sure. it'sunfortunately a business
that's not going out of business
anytime soon.- That's right.
- When you think aboutexpanding into new places,
(18:44):
is there something that you're looking for
in these communities?
Some support maybe that's already there?
What makes a good cityfor you to expand in?
- So one I look at wherethere's a lack of resources.
- Okay.
- For women in the areas thatwe work, so that's number one.
Then I look at the incarceration rates,
the rates of domestic violence
and girls aging out of foster care.
(19:05):
And if those are higher, wherethat need is more critical.
We started in New Yorkbecause I'm from New York.
I came home to New York
and that was the easiestplace for me to start.
I went to New Orleansbecause, at the time,
New Orleans was the numberone place in the world
that had the highest rateof incarceration per capita
for any demographic of people,
(19:26):
and that's why I went to New Orleans.
And I opened a house,
which I personally purchasedfor women in New Orleans,
because, during COVID, theywere not releasing people
out of prison unless they had a home.
And there were no homes for women
and so that's why in New Orleans,
I started it there,
in Prince George's County, Maryland,
we had some great supportfrom Pull Up Fund.
(19:48):
And I wanted to come back to Maryland
because, you know, Baltimore School
and you know my connectionthere, we did there, Miami,
in New York, for example, it'sabout 25,000 women and girls
that are released fromprison and jail each year,
in the state of Florida, there's 125,000.
- Unbelievable.
- Yes, and there were no support services
specifically for incarcerated women,
(20:09):
other than two organizationsthat did not do what we did.
So again, looking to fillgaps, understanding the need
and where we can make the greatest impact.
- Yeah, that's remarkable.
I mean, that is such a big number.
- Yeah.
- And the demand is so great.
- Yes.
- How can you scale evenfurther? What could you do?
What could all of us do,society do in general,
(20:30):
to really help that kind of population?
- Well, one, every state inthe country has a prison,
many prisons, as a matter of fact.
And so, you know, for me,
scaling to each and every state right now,
we impact 34 states.
But I want to have housingin every single state,
that is my goal.
And so, there's that,
(20:51):
there's also, for me now,
starting to teach women morearound like basic budgeting.
- Yeah.- You know,
how to save money,
I was able to purchase that house
because, since my incarceration,
20% of every dollar I received,
even if it was from my friends and family,
or from the $9 job that Ihad, which was high, you know,
in consideration that somepeople made $4 a month,
(21:11):
I saved 20% of every single dollar.
And so, when I came home, I did the same
and it was enough moneyfor me to purchase a home.
- Mm.- Right, and so,
teaching women those small tips,
because that's about how you build wealth
and how you have freedom.
And so, for me, it was really about,
it now becomes that, you know,
I'm fine with helping, you know,
you want to give a person ahand up and not a handout,
(21:33):
you want to make sure that you'reteaching people how to fish
and not feeding them the fish, you know?
- Yeah.
- And so, but all of us,we can lean in anywhere.
Each one of us, especially,I think, for women,
it is our responsibilityto take care of each other.
You know, while, you know, I love my men,
I have three brothers,
I had an incrediblefather and a great fiance,
(21:54):
so, you know, I love my menand we want them to help
and take care of us and support us, 100%.
But it is also ourresponsibilities as sisters
to take care of each other.
And so, I think supporting organizations,
like the Ladies of Hope Ministries,
going and loaning your time, you know,
to people who areincarcerated, offering jobs,
you know, there are huge barriers still.
(22:15):
- Yeah.
- For people getting employed,barriers for housing,
barriers for everything,
40,000 as a matter of factfor people with convictions.
So, and taking a look within, you know,
stop being so biased.
- Yeah, no, no, we verymuch appreciate that
at JP Morgan Chase,
we have a Second Chances program
where we are hiringpeople with backgrounds,
criminal backgrounds,
(22:36):
and I think that's beenjust such an important way
for a company to also have a say
in this too.- Yes, it's so true.
- It's not just policy,
it's actually for the employmentside, which is so critical.
Can you tell us about, you know,
a client who's come through the program,
who received services from you,
and how it made a differenceto her and her family?
- Yeah, I mean, I have several,
(22:57):
thank God, you know?- Great.
- I think about,
well, I have my comms director right now,
she started off in my FOWI program
and I hired her as mydirector of communications,
and she's been able to purchase a home
since she's been working with us.
I think about another sister Naquasia
who actually has an organizationcalled Pure Legacee,
(23:19):
and I sit on her board,
I met her while she was still incarcerated
after serving 15 years inNew York State facilities.
She came home, worked for us,
and now she started her own organization
and focuses on girls who wentthrough what she went through,
super proud of her, you know,
was a leader in creatingnational movements
of formerly incarcerated women,
(23:40):
being able to use their voiceand so excited about that,
helped about 110 women,
15 of which were incarceratedto become doulas.
- Ah.
- And so, you know, HalimahWashington, who's in New York,
'cause I'm in New York, I'mthinking about her right now,
I saw her the other day too,
that she has been an incredibledoula and birth worker
and is, you know, helpingpeople in community.
(24:02):
And so, there are so manythank God stories like that.
- [Sam] Hmm.
- We have a 0% recidivism,
no one who's gone throughany of our programs
has gone back to prison.
- That is incredible.- Including myself.
- Yeah, incredible,
unbelievable.- There's that too, you know?
So I think often youhave to be the example
and I'm just really proudof what I've been able to do
(24:22):
and what people havebeen able to experience,
you know, with God, so it'sjust been a beautiful thing.
- It's very powerful, I mean,
the fact that you can helpso many people adjust,
but also have their dreams.
- Yes.
- Hold onto those dreams,
have new dreams when theycome out for a new life.
That is exactly what you want.
(24:43):
- Exactly, and we have women from GED
to PhD in our programs, so, you know,
and we do that because wewant people to see, like,
we all are impacted by this system.
- Right.
- It doesn't matter the level of education
that you have or where you've been from,
it looks different today.
And so, it can happen to anyone
and so it's so important for us
(25:04):
to be able to just provide theseopportunities for everyone.
- So tell us about what's next for you?
First with the Ladies of Hope Ministries,
let's start there.
What's that plan for you forthe next three to five years?
- Ah, so like I said,expanding on the housing front.
You know, wanting to get more
into some real estate development work.
You know, again,
I like to create, I'ma social entrepreneur,
(25:25):
and so to provide housing myself,
Jasmine from Jasmine Brand, Angela Yee,
and Jessica Sanchez purchaseda 30-unit building in Detroit.
And so, we're going to bepre-leasing next month,
half of those units we are making sure
that justice impacted womenare actually able to get.
And so, super excited about that.
Continuing to really grow out
our workforce development program,
(25:46):
working with businesses, likeJP Morgan Chase and others,
that are actually not only
putting their money where their mouth is,
but also doing the work.
And so, wanting to continueto build relationships
with businesses
and give people growth-focusedjob opportunities, you know?
We're brilliant women.
- [Sam] Mm.
- And so, we deservebrilliant opportunities.
- Yes, we do.
(26:07):
- And so, because of that,
I really want to seemore companies coming in
and, you know, alongside of us
in order to provide those opportunities.
What else?
I mean, I would want to retirein two years, that's my goal.
- Do you think you really will?
Do you think you're going to slow down?
- No, I don't.
- Maybe retire will be just a step back.
- Just a step back or beable just to travel around
(26:28):
and do whatever I want todo, you know, eat good food.
What is it, eat, pray, love,
do all the things?- Yes, yes, yes.
- So I hoped for that for myself.
- I love that.
- And just continue to,again, find gaps, you know,
I love tech, I've alwaysbeen that type of person.
So you know, build out my FRSH Community
and continue to do that, you know?
And a few other projects,
(26:49):
we're building a music therapy project,
bringing music into prisons.
- Oh wow.
- With Cool & Dre.
And so, just a lot ofcool programs and projects
that I'm doing.- That's great.
- Yeah, so.
- Yeah, I mean, music and technology,
I don't know if we often think about that
as having that sort of application.
- We don't, but stay tuned.
It is a super, super cool platform
(27:11):
and our hope is to be ableto produce people's music
from behind the wall,but them getting paid
as they actually are doing their music
so they'll be able toput it out in the world,
get paid for it, so when they come home,
they have real money tostart their life over.
- So this is a really, it's abusiness growth for someone,
business opportunity.
- A hundred percent, yeah.
- That's incredible.- Yes.
- Did you see those skills andtalents, you know, firsthand?
(27:33):
- Yes.- Went to prison, yeah?
- I mean, I had 'em,
I'm classically trainedin piano and flute,
so I mean, I had it too, you know,
but it's like so many people.
And what I did learn, you know,
I was very biased andignorant myself before going,
I thought a certain typeof person was in prison.
And while there isaccountability, as I mentioned,
and, you know, people do commit crime,
(27:54):
but for different reasons, you know,
but the brilliance thatpeople are just caged
and not having the opportunity
to come out and do something,it's just heartbreaking.
- It is.
- And so, you know,
just continuing to beable to provide platforms
for people to talk,
and thank you so muchfor inviting me on here,
because this is a new audience
and a new way for people tohear how important this is,
(28:16):
but also see, you know,yes, I was in prison
and while I don't look likewhat I've been through,
I've been through it.- Yeah.
- And yet I was able to takethat because of my support.
If I did not have the support that I had,
there's no way I would'vebeen able to create
and continue to createthe things that I do.
And so, you know, I ask, again,
people to please just support.
(28:36):
- Mm, thank you, we willtake that message to heart.
And so, as we think aboutbuilding upon your legacy.
- [Topeka] Yeah.
- What would you like that legacy to be?
- Oh, what a question.
What do I want my legacy to be? Hmm.
You know, my legacy isthrough the people, right?
I think I've created partof a legacy, you know,
(28:58):
just through the work that I've done,
I also have a personal goalof becoming a billionaire.
- Oh, tell us more.
- Yeah, so I believethe more money I have,
the more I can do.
- Mm-hm.
- And so, because of that,when I came home nine years ago
and started my organization,
while great, I built this nonprofit,
(29:19):
we've been able to raise over $12 million
and that's a lot of money for the space
that I work in.- Absolutely.
- And in six years, butI own nothing, right?
If I decide to walk away today, that's it,
I haven't built any wealthfor my family, you know?
Yes, I have some real estateprojects and other things,
but I started thinking about,
how do I begin to build wealth for myself?
(29:40):
How can I do well and do good?
- Right.
- And that it was very important for me
to be able to do that, so whenI started my FRSH Community,
I became a third equity partner in that.
- [Sam] Mm.
- And being on the realestate development project,
Angela was like,
"I want to bring you inas a full equity partner,"
being a third on that, andjust all of these things
to begin to build more formyself, so when it comes time
(30:02):
that I can say, "I want 10generations post me and my family
to not have to go through theexperiences I went through
to live their life fullof their own dreams."
- Yeah.
- You know, like we see,
that's what America issupposed to be about.
And so, you know, I'vebeen fortunate enough
to be raised by parentswho were entrepreneurs
and who showed us from very young
(30:23):
that you can have anythingif you work hard for it.
- [Sam] Mm.
- And so, I think this,
when you talked about like, what's for me?
You know, it is making a lot of money
so that I can do a lot more good.
- I love that you're saying this
because I think women don'toften think about themselves
in this equation all the time.
- They don't.- They only think about
their families and their communities
(30:44):
and not being afraid to say,
"I would like to build wealth for myself
and my future generations,"which we are very much for.
- Yes.- Particularly for women
to have more equitable opportunities.
- [Topeka] 100%.
- And so, I don't think you'regoing to retire anytime soon,
it sounds like, maybe fromLadies Of Hope Ministries.
But you know, what wouldyou say to other women
who are out there thinking,gosh, can I do that for myself?
(31:06):
How should I even startdoing something like that?
- One, you have to believe it.
You have to believe,
and you have to give yourself permission.
It took me a long time togive myself permission to say,
"Yes, I want to do welland do good," right?
It took me a minute,
but while I have a lot of great supporters
through my organization,a lot of wealthy ones,
(31:28):
and I would go into their beautiful homes
and I would see, you know,all the beautiful things,
and I was like, oh, this is great,
but I want this for myself, you know?
Like, I'm happy to meet you on your yacht,
but I want this for myself, you know?
Like, all of this is great,but I want this for myself
and that I should not feel bad about that
because I'm doing good work.
- Right.
- And so, you know, forother women out there,
(31:49):
one, it's okay, youknow, it's okay to say,
"I want this for myself and my family,"
and it's okay to get it.
- [Sam] Yeah.
- And I also think that
when you want something for yourself,
you have to be around peopleyou aspire to be like.
And so, it is about changingthose that are around you,
it's about changing thethings that you're looking at,
it's about what are we putting
(32:09):
in our minds and in ourbodies, it's about all of that.
And so, you know, but it starts from you
believing in yourself,
so just write an affirmationon my mirror, I have lipstick.
- Yes.
- I have, "I am abillionaire," and I look at it
every morning.- I love it.
And so, you know, I'm creeping up there.
- In your signature pink,
is that written in your signature pink?
- In my signature pink, I promise,
when I was incarcerated,I wore lipstick every day.
Anybody I was in will tell you that.
(32:31):
But it is important, right?
We have to give ourselfpermission to do that.
- Well, thank you for that.
And so, as listeners takeaway from this conversation,
you know, all that you stand for,
what would you hope theydo in their own lives?
- Well, one, believe in yourself,
know that many of us are incarcerated
before we even go to a prison, right?
You can be living in a prison,
(32:52):
in your mind, in your community,
before you've even gottenthrough what I've been through.
You can change that today, right?
Each day, God gives us grace,
we can get up everymorning and we can decide,
we don't want to be who we are,
we don't want to do what we used to do,
and we want something different.
And so, I think you start today.
If you want somethingdifferent for yourself,
you do it today.
(33:12):
And whatever those steps are,you make sure you take them.
And even if they're small steps,
they're small steps closerto where you want to be,
but you have to take the steps.
- Thank you so much, Topeka,
it's so nice to speak with you.
- Thank you.
- I love the work that you're doing
on behalf of women all over the country.
- Thank you.
- So my heart is with you
and everything you've been supporting.
- Thank you.- So thank you for telling
(33:33):
your story here.
- Thank you, Sam, I appreciate it.
- Thank you for listeningto my conversation today
with Dr. Topeka K. Sam.
I am so inspired by the work that she does
and grateful that she tookher own lived experience
and channeled it intohelping so many others,
the most vulnerable in our communities.
If you liked today's episode,
(33:53):
please subscribe on yourfavorite podcast channel
so you don't miss anymore, andplease share it with others.
I hope today you are inspiredto lead with purpose.
- I wanted to create platforms for women
to be able to use their voice
because I felt that ifwe saw the faces of women
who were incarceratedand heard their voices,
that there would be no womanor girl in prison or jail.
I'm a firm believer that youcan hold people accountable
by healing them and prisonsand jails don't do that.
(00:22):
- Welcome to the "WomenOn the Move" podcast,
I'm your host, Sam Saperstein.
In today's episode,
I'm speaking with Dr. Topeka K. Sam,
a remarkable individual whose experience
from incarceration led her to create
and advocate for solutions
to help women transitioningback into society.
Dr. Sam is the founderand executive director
(00:42):
for the Ladies of Hope Ministries
and the co-founder of a safe housing space
for women and girls, Hope House NYC.
She's a pioneer in the fight
for the decriminalization
and decarceration of women and girls,
relentlessly working toprovide resources and support
for those transitioning back to society.
With her unwavering dedicationand profound impact,
(01:04):
Dr. Sam is a beacon of hope
and empowerment for countless individuals.
Topeka, welcome to the"Women on the Move" podcast,
it is really great to have you on with us.
- Thank you so much for havingme, Sam, it's such an honor.
- I'd love to start withyour own story, you know,
how you got to where you are today,
why you are an advocatein the way you are.
Can you tell us about that?
- Yeah, sure.
(01:25):
Well, how I'm here today
is through my ownjourney of incarceration,
spending three and a halfyears in federal prison
and seeing all of thedisparities and harms
that women and girls had faced.
I knew when I came home
because of the support services,
the family, community that I had,
that I could do anything and,
but the sisters that Ileft behind would not.
(01:47):
And so, as God would have it,
I was really just movedto start my organization,
the Ladies of Hope Ministries,while I was incarcerated.
And when I was released in2015, I hit the ground running.
- So you really had this thought and idea
before you left prison.
- Yeah.- You wanted to do this.
What inspired you to dothat then, originally?
- Ooh, a lot.
(02:07):
I would say when I wasin, the women that I met,
when I started my journeyin the county jail,
they were really poor,black, white, brown,
low levels of education, lowsocioeconomic backgrounds,
and really no opportunity.
When I got to federal prison,
I was incarcerated with doctors,lawyers, senators, judges,
And it was such a big difference,
(02:29):
and women were beingcriminalized for sex work
because they had to or substance misuse
because of the trauma and things
that they faced throughout their lives.
And no opportunities tocome home to, not a home,
85% of all women are mothersof dependent children
and having to get their children back,
and all the things
(02:49):
that women face thatmen don't coming home.
- Yeah.
- And so, because I knewthat I could, you know,
just as a small child,
I was always very justdriven and ambitious
and I knew that I could come and I did.
And so, that's how I really started
from the sisters that I met.
- It's such a stark change or difference
between the women youencountered in the various areas,
(03:10):
I think that's really so powerful
that you took that experience
knowing that others were leaving prison
and not having the same resources
that you did.- Oh, sure.
- So when you thought aboutLadies of Hope Ministries
from the start,
what was it that youreally wanted to provide?
What, at the core of it, wasimportant to that mission?
- So it was two things,one was safe housing
because a lot of the women that I met
(03:31):
didn't know where they would go.
If they would come home,
it would either they wouldhave to go back into sex work
just to get a safe place to live
or in an abusive relationship, again,
to get a safe place to live.
And I wanted to create platforms
for women to be able to use their voice,
because I felt that if we saw the faces
of women who were incarceratedand heard their voices,
(03:51):
that there would be no womanor girl in prison or jail,
I'm a firm believer that youcan hold people accountable
by healing them, and prisonsand jails don't do that.
- Mm, oh, thank you for doing that,
I think that platform is sovital and the visibility.
- Yes.
- As you're talking about right now.
So justice reform is such a huge topic
and so important for oursociety to deal with.
How do you focus on the specific areas
(04:13):
that you think are themost vital to support?
- Yeah, so for me, you know,I cannot advocate for myself
or anyone else unless my basichuman rights are met first.
- [Sam] Mm.
- Access to safe and affordable housing
an equitable opportunityin a growth-focused career,
quality healthcare, and thenthe power to use my voice
and to share my experience to change laws.
And so, that's where it was for me,
(04:35):
starting at the core of what we all need.
- Yeah.
- When I went to college, I came home,
I was able to live with my parents, right?
You know, people comeback from the military,
they're safe if they havea safe place to live.
- [Sam] Hmm.
- Incarceration is no different.
- Right, right.
What do you wish peopleknew about women in prison?
What are some facts or experiences
that people might notknow that they should?
(04:56):
- Right, so I mentioned 85% are mothers
of dependent childrenand heads of households.
- Yeah.
- 95% have experienced
some type of sexual trauma or violence.
90% have some sort of mental health issue,
whether it's from somethingsmall, if you will,
or something larger like schizophrenia.
(05:18):
And so, there are driversthat lead to incarceration,
as we know, women oftenare the most marginalized,
the most vulnerablepopulation, and, you know,
have the less support in services,
no matter what industry you're in.
And so, going into prison,
it's the same harms and the same drivers,
but yet we come home andthere's not enough organizations
or opportunities when we come home.
(05:39):
- Yeah, I mean there's no safety net
is what you're saying in so many ways,
and so many of these problemsstay with women throughout,
right when they're getting out.
Do you find that the system
exacerbates some of these things?
- A hundred percent,
because there's no supportservice while you're in.
When I was in,
our adult continuing education courses
were knitting, crocheting,plastic canvas, and beading,
(06:02):
so that's what they gave us to do, right?
- Not necessarily yourlivelihoods going forward.
- Exactly, you know?
Where men, they get CDLopportunities, you know,
sometimes just differenttrades that they get to,
we don't, you know?
And then, also, when we think about,
you know, pregnant womenwho are incarcerated,
the fact that they're shacklingwomen during child labor,
(06:24):
still in over 20 states in this country,
we were fortunate enoughto lead the effort
on passing over 16 piecesof legislations to end that.
But it still happens.
- Right, right, that's so important.
And given that it's so different
state by state in this country,
how do you have to reallymobilize at that local level
and how hard is that todo over and over again
when things might be so different?
(06:45):
- It's exhausting.
- Yeah.
- Incredibly hard.
But what we have done
is we galvanize otherdirectly affected women.
- Mm.
- And I say justice impacted
because there are those of uswho actually lived in prisons,
there's those who work in prisons,
there's those who have loved ones,
but we're all impactedby the justice system.
And so, we bring communitiesof women together
and family members thatcare about this issue,
(07:09):
and locally, we have thosesisters lead the work.
- Yeah, I mean, for youto raise the family aspect
is so invaluable for us to remember,
it is not just the women and people
in prison themselves.- That's right.
- It's the whole family and the children
and everybody attached to that.
Do you do also work forthe families as well?
And what kind of supportservices do you provide for them?
(07:29):
- A hundred percent, so alot of our housing programs,
for example, with theRapid Rehousing with HUD
we help families in gettingtheir own apartments
in New York, PrinceGeorge's County, Maryland,
and also New Orleans, Louisiana,
with helping them paytheir rent for a year
in their own apartment, sothat's permanent housing.
We have our workforce development
(07:50):
so we do certificationprograms, digital marketing,
project management, IT, AI,
we partnered with Google
to do a digital literacyskills training program.
I also, I'm a co-founderof a FinTech company
that focus on making surethat justice impacted people
have financial education,savings and banking,
(08:12):
amongst many other things.
But it is about building the community
because if our families are strong,
then it also helps that person
who is reentering to become strong.
- And thinking about how you did things.
Did you have this full vision
when you left of what allthese services would look like?
Or did you come out andsort of one step at a time,
start building some of these things?
'Cause it's very expansivewhat you're already providing.
(08:32):
- No, it is, I had a large vision.
I knew I was going to scale,
I knew I wanted to bein more than one state.
The additional programscame from the need.
- [Sam] Mm.
- So I'm the type of person that
if it's not broke, why fix it?
So I'm not going to create something
that someone else, I found gaps.
And where there were gaps
and I would hear it overand over in my travels,
(08:53):
that's when I would create programs
in order to fulfill those necessary gaps.
- That's great.- And with COVID,
our work became even more vital
because now you have morepeople who are in the house.
But it was also, we have earsbecause now we can get people
on the computer and we canget them to take programming
because people were losing their jobs,
you know, there were thingshappening in households,
especially between menand women with more PTSD,
(09:15):
more trauma and moreintimate partner violence.
And so, we were ableto help to support that
during that time as well.
- That is great, that is great.
So when you think about leadershipin the nonprofit sector,
I think there's certain skills you need
and probably certain things
that you wouldn't do inthe corporate sector,
raise money, for example.
- Yeah, that part.- Always thinking
of doing that, you know,
(09:36):
what are the essential leadership skills
you found to be so important to you
as you've led and createdand launched your company?
- I would say, one,
I'm not a fearful person, right?
And I think you have tobe really, really strong
and powerful in yourself.
(09:57):
I think if you lead in fear,
it causes more harm to the people
that you're trying to lead.
And so, having great courageis something you have to have,
I think, not being ashamed, right?
The fact is that, yes,I lived this experience,
it was three years in my40 something years of life.
And so, it does not define who I am,
all it did was give me an idea
(10:18):
of what I needed to doand help me on my journey.
Also, I would say that, ifyou have a lived experience,
it's critical to lead a nonprofit
because you are now really familiar
with the populationyou're wanting to serve.
And so, it comes with adeep passion about the work,
because you really can't lead
if you're not passionate in nonprofit,
(10:40):
because it doesn't pay, you know,
it's not about trying toget rich in this work,
other than in spirit.- Yeah.
- But outside of that, you know,
you can't pay your billswith that, you know?
So you really have to be grounded
in whatever the mission, you know,
mission driven and be a servant leader.
- Mm.
- Because you do not get, again, kudos,
you don't get a lot of claps,
(11:00):
you don't get a lot of pats on the back,
you have to be a self-starter,
you have to know that you'redoing this for a greater good.
And that's really, youknow, I would say keys to,
you know, being a leader in this space.
- I have to imagine that whenyou find like-minded souls
who are doing this workfrom that same passion
that you're coming from,
you really have a kinship
and you can really share things
in a way that maybe others ina corporate workplace can't.
(11:24):
How are those relationships?What do they mean to you?
The people that you've met along the way,
the people you work with day to day,
talk about that family,
if you will, of peoplewho are helping you.
- Yeah, so it's beautiful, right?
Especially around women'cause it's a sisterhood.
- Yeah.
- And we're able tocommunicate with each other.
We just had an event in Harlem recently,
(11:44):
and to have so many women come up to me
to say the impact thatI've made on their lives,
and not even knowing them, you know,
seeing women cry, likeI'm a whole celebrity,
and it was like, I kind of smiled
because I was like, wow, you know,
but they were so nervous tomeet me, and it was like,
"But I've experiencedthe same thing you did,"
which then gives them courage to speak.
- [Sam] Hmm.
(12:04):
- But I think it's just a beautiful thing
to be able to inspire people
to help to transform their life.
Because if you don'tsee it, you can't be it.
And so, often, you know,
so many people come fromspecific communities,
whether, I mean, I was raisedin a very privileged community
in Manorville, Long Island.
But when I got to college
(12:25):
at an HBCU in Baltimore, Maryland,
it was completely different.
So my lived experiences,even at that time,
was different than thecommunity that I came from,
that I'm a part of.- Yeah.
- So even when you may come from
a limited resource community,
you can't see that you can have more
unless you see someone
who's lived that experienceand got out of it.
So that, for me, is the greatest gift
(12:46):
to be able to show women that
it doesn't matter where we come from
or what we've experienced,
that we can be and dowhatever it is that we want.
- That was powerful, thankyou, I really appreciate that.
I love how you live that all the time,
I'm sure there are daysthat are very tough.
- Mm-hm.
- This is a tough field to be in,
you're dealing withreal people, real lives.
How do you stay not only motivated,
(13:06):
but strong to keepcarrying this work forward?
- Well, one is God,
my faith and my relationship with God
is very, very important.
I wouldn't have gotten through
what I went throughincarcerated without God.
While I had visits every week,
I had, you know, moneyon my books, you know,
I had great support servicesthrough my family and friends,
(13:27):
those dark nights alone,
I wouldn't have got throughit if I didn't have God,
so that's number one.
Number two, it is just my practice, right?
It is going into prisons,
I was in three prisonsin the last two days.
- Wow.
- And so, continuing to be connected
to the work in that way and to the people,
because that way it is always familiar
(13:47):
because we can forget, you know?
It's easy to say, I am nineyears now removed incarceration,
but going in continues tokeep me focused on my why
and God's why for my life,
and that's what justmotivates me and drives me.
- Oh, that is great.
And so, you're busy.
- Very.- Many states,
we've talked about this,you've been so many places.
(14:08):
How do you maintain and managewhat you have to get done
while you're always on the road?
You're a super organized person?
- No.- Do you have a staff?
- Not at all.
- Tell us the tips and tricks,
because we might also be like that.
- Well, you know, numberone, I have a great team,
you're only as strongas your team, you know?
So I will say that, shout outto Ladies of Hope Ministries.
(14:28):
- [Sam] Yes.
- Shout out to FRSH, my FRSH Community,
shout out to all of my partners,
because you have to knowyour strengths, right?
And organization is not one.
I will say that I do keep a calendar, and-
- On paper or digital?
- Digital.- You're digital, okay.
- And if it's not on thecalendar, it doesn't exist.
So that has been kind of like my crutch.
(14:51):
I wake up every morningaround 5, 4:30, 5:00 AM.
- Wow.- I meditate.
- Wow, early.- I pray,
I go through emails, that'swhen I'm most productive, early.
But also, I've met somany successful people,
very wealthy people and that'sa practice that they do too.
- [Sam] Hmm.
- It's a fun fact I've heard,
you know, I get calls in the morning,
six o'clock in the morning from people
(15:12):
that are really out theredoing even more than me,
so it motivates me to keep, you know,
having these regular practices.
I talk to my mom regularly,you know, my friends regularly,
so that way it's disconnectingme from the work.
- Yes.
- Because it's so heavy,
I have to have some funand laughter in my life.
Because without it, you know, it's hard.
(15:34):
- Yeah, for sure.
- So that's my, I guess, you know,
and I like to put makeupon and get pretty,
so there's that too.- As you should.
I love that.- You know?
- So in this space, this nonprofit world,
when we do provide so manysocial services like you do,
it's so important to takecare of the employees,
the frontline employees who do this work.
How do you promotewellness among your staff?
(15:55):
- Yeah, so it is incredibly important,
that's a great question.
We have done retreats
where we've been able to send employees,
you know, to go away for a few days,
we did a retreat collectively
where the entire team went away together
for a strategic plan and retreat.
We also partner withdifferent technology apps
to make sure that peoplehave wellness opportunities
(16:17):
right at their fingertips.
So we encourage, eventhrough, you know, HR,
I was told to give people,you know, extra wellness days,
and so, I did that too.
And I listen, I have anopen door policy, you know,
people can call me, textme, not all times of night,
but most of the time toreach out so that they can,
you know, have that connection with me
(16:37):
if they need something.
- That's great, it makes a difference.
- [Topeka] Mm-hm.
- So tell us about what Ladiesof Hope Ministries has done.
What are you most proud of?
Tell us about those goals,those accomplishments,
that when you think of, youknow, it really lights you up?
- Yeah, so we've impactedover 5,000 women and girls.
- Incredible.
- We have scaled to now,outside of just New York,
(16:59):
as I mentioned, New Orleans, Maryland,
we have a hub in Miami
where we're going to be starting classes
in English and Spanish there.
- [Sam] Oh, great.
- And in Detroit, whereI have other partners
and we have a building for 30 units there,
we're going to expandour work there as well
to help people in the city of Detroit.
We had opened a house in Trinidad
to help women in the Caribbean.
- That's great.
(17:20):
- Do some program in Bogota, Columbia,
through our Grow With Google program,
we've helped to impact over 100,000 people
with digital skills training.
Ugh, I'm just like-
- That's a lot already.- The fact that, you know,
we have a great staff
and I'm able to help to supportwomen and their families,
you know, I have one man on staff.
You know, I love him, my CFO.- Yes, yes, men are welcome.
(17:41):
- Oh yes, they're welcome.
- For sure.
- But we do support, you know,
staff members have beenable to purchase homes
since being with the organization,
some who've been directly affected.
We do hire people who've liveddifferent lived experiences,
whether they've been incarcerated,
been through domestic violence,have been in the military.
- [Sam] Mm.
- You know, or law enforcement.
(18:03):
So, you know, I'm just proud of what,
you know, God has gracedme with to create.
And, you know, just hopeful that
it becomes easier, you know?
As you mentioned, it isa nonprofit business.
You know, we're not just a program
and so it takes real dollars in order
to continue to fund ourwork and scale our work.
And while the incarceration rate of women,
(18:24):
domestic violence of women,
and survivors, it'sconsistently increasing,
it is not decreasing,irrespective of what we hear that
that makes our work justthat much more important.
- Yeah, for sure. it'sunfortunately a business
that's not going out of business
anytime soon.- That's right.
- When you think aboutexpanding into new places,
(18:44):
is there something that you're looking for
in these communities?
Some support maybe that's already there?
What makes a good cityfor you to expand in?
- So one I look at wherethere's a lack of resources.
- Okay.
- For women in the areas thatwe work, so that's number one.
Then I look at the incarceration rates,
the rates of domestic violence
and girls aging out of foster care.
(19:05):
And if those are higher, wherethat need is more critical.
We started in New Yorkbecause I'm from New York.
I came home to New York
and that was the easiestplace for me to start.
I went to New Orleansbecause, at the time,
New Orleans was the numberone place in the world
that had the highest rateof incarceration per capita
for any demographic of people,
(19:26):
and that's why I went to New Orleans.
And I opened a house,
which I personally purchasedfor women in New Orleans,
because, during COVID, theywere not releasing people
out of prison unless they had a home.
And there were no homes for women
and so that's why in New Orleans,
I started it there,
in Prince George's County, Maryland,
we had some great supportfrom Pull Up Fund.
(19:48):
And I wanted to come back to Maryland
because, you know, Baltimore School
and you know my connectionthere, we did there, Miami,
in New York, for example, it'sabout 25,000 women and girls
that are released fromprison and jail each year,
in the state of Florida, there's 125,000.
- Unbelievable.
- Yes, and there were no support services
specifically for incarcerated women,
(20:09):
other than two organizationsthat did not do what we did.
So again, looking to fillgaps, understanding the need
and where we can make the greatest impact.
- Yeah, that's remarkable.
I mean, that is such a big number.
- Yeah.
- And the demand is so great.
- Yes.
- How can you scale evenfurther? What could you do?
What could all of us do,society do in general,
(20:30):
to really help that kind of population?
- Well, one, every state inthe country has a prison,
many prisons, as a matter of fact.
And so, you know, for me,
scaling to each and every state right now,
we impact 34 states.
But I want to have housingin every single state,
that is my goal.
And so, there's that,
(20:51):
there's also, for me now,
starting to teach women morearound like basic budgeting.
- Yeah.- You know,
how to save money,
I was able to purchase that house
because, since my incarceration,
20% of every dollar I received,
even if it was from my friends and family,
or from the $9 job that Ihad, which was high, you know,
in consideration that somepeople made $4 a month,
(21:11):
I saved 20% of every single dollar.
And so, when I came home, I did the same
and it was enough moneyfor me to purchase a home.
- Mm.- Right, and so,
teaching women those small tips,
because that's about how you build wealth
and how you have freedom.
And so, for me, it was really about,
it now becomes that, you know,
I'm fine with helping, you know,
you want to give a person ahand up and not a handout,
(21:33):
you want to make sure that you'reteaching people how to fish
and not feeding them the fish, you know?
- Yeah.
- And so, but all of us,we can lean in anywhere.
Each one of us, especially,I think, for women,
it is our responsibilityto take care of each other.
You know, while, you know, I love my men,
I have three brothers,
I had an incrediblefather and a great fiance,
(21:54):
so, you know, I love my menand we want them to help
and take care of us and support us, 100%.
But it is also ourresponsibilities as sisters
to take care of each other.
And so, I think supporting organizations,
like the Ladies of Hope Ministries,
going and loaning your time, you know,
to people who areincarcerated, offering jobs,
you know, there are huge barriers still.
(22:15):
- Yeah.
- For people getting employed,barriers for housing,
barriers for everything,
40,000 as a matter of factfor people with convictions.
So, and taking a look within, you know,
stop being so biased.
- Yeah, no, no, we verymuch appreciate that
at JP Morgan Chase,
we have a Second Chances program
where we are hiringpeople with backgrounds,
criminal backgrounds,
(22:36):
and I think that's beenjust such an important way
for a company to also have a say
in this too.- Yes, it's so true.
- It's not just policy,
it's actually for the employmentside, which is so critical.
Can you tell us about, you know,
a client who's come through the program,
who received services from you,
and how it made a differenceto her and her family?
- Yeah, I mean, I have several,
(22:57):
thank God, you know?- Great.
- I think about,
well, I have my comms director right now,
she started off in my FOWI program
and I hired her as mydirector of communications,
and she's been able to purchase a home
since she's been working with us.
I think about another sister Naquasia
who actually has an organizationcalled Pure Legacee,
(23:19):
and I sit on her board,
I met her while she was still incarcerated
after serving 15 years inNew York State facilities.
She came home, worked for us,
and now she started her own organization
and focuses on girls who wentthrough what she went through,
super proud of her, you know,
was a leader in creatingnational movements
of formerly incarcerated women,
(23:40):
being able to use their voiceand so excited about that,
helped about 110 women,
15 of which were incarceratedto become doulas.
- Ah.
- And so, you know, HalimahWashington, who's in New York,
'cause I'm in New York, I'mthinking about her right now,
I saw her the other day too,
that she has been an incredibledoula and birth worker
and is, you know, helpingpeople in community.
(24:02):
And so, there are so manythank God stories like that.
- [Sam] Hmm.
- We have a 0% recidivism,
no one who's gone throughany of our programs
has gone back to prison.
- That is incredible.- Including myself.
- Yeah, incredible,
unbelievable.- There's that too, you know?
So I think often youhave to be the example
and I'm just really proudof what I've been able to do
(24:22):
and what people havebeen able to experience,
you know, with God, so it'sjust been a beautiful thing.
- It's very powerful, I mean,
the fact that you can helpso many people adjust,
but also have their dreams.
- Yes.
- Hold onto those dreams,
have new dreams when theycome out for a new life.
That is exactly what you want.
(24:43):
- Exactly, and we have women from GED
to PhD in our programs, so, you know,
and we do that because wewant people to see, like,
we all are impacted by this system.
- Right.
- It doesn't matter the level of education
that you have or where you've been from,
it looks different today.
And so, it can happen to anyone
and so it's so important for us
(25:04):
to be able to just provide theseopportunities for everyone.
- So tell us about what's next for you?
First with the Ladies of Hope Ministries,
let's start there.
What's that plan for you forthe next three to five years?
- Ah, so like I said,expanding on the housing front.
You know, wanting to get more
into some real estate development work.
You know, again,
I like to create, I'ma social entrepreneur,
(25:25):
and so to provide housing myself,
Jasmine from Jasmine Brand, Angela Yee,
and Jessica Sanchez purchaseda 30-unit building in Detroit.
And so, we're going to bepre-leasing next month,
half of those units we are making sure
that justice impacted womenare actually able to get.
And so, super excited about that.
Continuing to really grow out
our workforce development program,
(25:46):
working with businesses, likeJP Morgan Chase and others,
that are actually not only
putting their money where their mouth is,
but also doing the work.
And so, wanting to continueto build relationships
with businesses
and give people growth-focusedjob opportunities, you know?
We're brilliant women.
- [Sam] Mm.
- And so, we deservebrilliant opportunities.
- Yes, we do.
(26:07):
- And so, because of that,
I really want to seemore companies coming in
and, you know, alongside of us
in order to provide those opportunities.
What else?
I mean, I would want to retirein two years, that's my goal.
- Do you think you really will?
Do you think you're going to slow down?
- No, I don't.
- Maybe retire will be just a step back.
- Just a step back or beable just to travel around
(26:28):
and do whatever I want todo, you know, eat good food.
What is it, eat, pray, love,
do all the things?- Yes, yes, yes.
- So I hoped for that for myself.
- I love that.
- And just continue to,again, find gaps, you know,
I love tech, I've alwaysbeen that type of person.
So you know, build out my FRSH Community
and continue to do that, you know?
And a few other projects,
(26:49):
we're building a music therapy project,
bringing music into prisons.
- Oh wow.
- With Cool & Dre.
And so, just a lot ofcool programs and projects
that I'm doing.- That's great.
- Yeah, so.
- Yeah, I mean, music and technology,
I don't know if we often think about that
as having that sort of application.
- We don't, but stay tuned.
It is a super, super cool platform
(27:11):
and our hope is to be ableto produce people's music
from behind the wall,but them getting paid
as they actually are doing their music
so they'll be able toput it out in the world,
get paid for it, so when they come home,
they have real money tostart their life over.
- So this is a really, it's abusiness growth for someone,
business opportunity.
- A hundred percent, yeah.
- That's incredible.- Yes.
- Did you see those skills andtalents, you know, firsthand?
(27:33):
- Yes.- Went to prison, yeah?
- I mean, I had 'em,
I'm classically trainedin piano and flute,
so I mean, I had it too, you know,
but it's like so many people.
And what I did learn, you know,
I was very biased andignorant myself before going,
I thought a certain typeof person was in prison.
And while there isaccountability, as I mentioned,
and, you know, people do commit crime,
(27:54):
but for different reasons, you know,
but the brilliance thatpeople are just caged
and not having the opportunity
to come out and do something,it's just heartbreaking.
- It is.
- And so, you know,
just continuing to beable to provide platforms
for people to talk,
and thank you so muchfor inviting me on here,
because this is a new audience
and a new way for people tohear how important this is,
(28:16):
but also see, you know,yes, I was in prison
and while I don't look likewhat I've been through,
I've been through it.- Yeah.
- And yet I was able to takethat because of my support.
If I did not have the support that I had,
there's no way I would'vebeen able to create
and continue to createthe things that I do.
And so, you know, I ask, again,
people to please just support.
(28:36):
- Mm, thank you, we willtake that message to heart.
And so, as we think aboutbuilding upon your legacy.
- [Topeka] Yeah.
- What would you like that legacy to be?
- Oh, what a question.
What do I want my legacy to be? Hmm.
You know, my legacy isthrough the people, right?
I think I've created partof a legacy, you know,
(28:58):
just through the work that I've done,
I also have a personal goalof becoming a billionaire.
- Oh, tell us more.
- Yeah, so I believethe more money I have,
the more I can do.
- Mm-hm.
- And so, because of that,when I came home nine years ago
and started my organization,
while great, I built this nonprofit,
(29:19):
we've been able to raise over $12 million
and that's a lot of money for the space
that I work in.- Absolutely.
- And in six years, butI own nothing, right?
If I decide to walk away today, that's it,
I haven't built any wealthfor my family, you know?
Yes, I have some real estateprojects and other things,
but I started thinking about,
how do I begin to build wealth for myself?
(29:40):
How can I do well and do good?
- Right.
- And that it was very important for me
to be able to do that, so whenI started my FRSH Community,
I became a third equity partner in that.
- [Sam] Mm.
- And being on the realestate development project,
Angela was like,
"I want to bring you inas a full equity partner,"
being a third on that, andjust all of these things
to begin to build more formyself, so when it comes time
(30:02):
that I can say, "I want 10generations post me and my family
to not have to go through theexperiences I went through
to live their life fullof their own dreams."
- Yeah.
- You know, like we see,
that's what America issupposed to be about.
And so, you know, I'vebeen fortunate enough
to be raised by parentswho were entrepreneurs
and who showed us from very young
(30:23):
that you can have anythingif you work hard for it.
- [Sam] Mm.
- And so, I think this,
when you talked about like, what's for me?
You know, it is making a lot of money
so that I can do a lot more good.
- I love that you're saying this
because I think women don'toften think about themselves
in this equation all the time.
- They don't.- They only think about
their families and their communities
(30:44):
and not being afraid to say,
"I would like to build wealth for myself
and my future generations,"which we are very much for.
- Yes.- Particularly for women
to have more equitable opportunities.
- [Topeka] 100%.
- And so, I don't think you'regoing to retire anytime soon,
it sounds like, maybe fromLadies Of Hope Ministries.
But you know, what wouldyou say to other women
who are out there thinking,gosh, can I do that for myself?
(31:06):
How should I even startdoing something like that?
- One, you have to believe it.
You have to believe,
and you have to give yourself permission.
It took me a long time togive myself permission to say,
"Yes, I want to do welland do good," right?
It took me a minute,
but while I have a lot of great supporters
through my organization,a lot of wealthy ones,
(31:28):
and I would go into their beautiful homes
and I would see, you know,all the beautiful things,
and I was like, oh, this is great,
but I want this for myself, you know?
Like, I'm happy to meet you on your yacht,
but I want this for myself, you know?
Like, all of this is great,but I want this for myself
and that I should not feel bad about that
because I'm doing good work.
- Right.
- And so, you know, forother women out there,
(31:49):
one, it's okay, youknow, it's okay to say,
"I want this for myself and my family,"
and it's okay to get it.
- [Sam] Yeah.
- And I also think that
when you want something for yourself,
you have to be around peopleyou aspire to be like.
And so, it is about changingthose that are around you,
it's about changing thethings that you're looking at,
it's about what are we putting
(32:09):
in our minds and in ourbodies, it's about all of that.
And so, you know, but it starts from you
believing in yourself,
so just write an affirmationon my mirror, I have lipstick.
- Yes.
- I have, "I am abillionaire," and I look at it
every morning.- I love it.
And so, you know, I'm creeping up there.
- In your signature pink,
is that written in your signature pink?
- In my signature pink, I promise,
when I was incarcerated,I wore lipstick every day.
Anybody I was in will tell you that.
(32:31):
But it is important, right?
We have to give ourselfpermission to do that.
- Well, thank you for that.
And so, as listeners takeaway from this conversation,
you know, all that you stand for,
what would you hope theydo in their own lives?
- Well, one, believe in yourself,
know that many of us are incarcerated
before we even go to a prison, right?
You can be living in a prison,
(32:52):
in your mind, in your community,
before you've even gottenthrough what I've been through.
You can change that today, right?
Each day, God gives us grace,
we can get up everymorning and we can decide,
we don't want to be who we are,
we don't want to do what we used to do,
and we want something different.
And so, I think you start today.
If you want somethingdifferent for yourself,
you do it today.
(33:12):
And whatever those steps are,you make sure you take them.
And even if they're small steps,
they're small steps closerto where you want to be,
but you have to take the steps.
- Thank you so much, Topeka,
it's so nice to speak with you.
- Thank you.
- I love the work that you're doing
on behalf of women all over the country.
- Thank you.
- So my heart is with you
and everything you've been supporting.
- Thank you.- So thank you for telling
(33:33):
your story here.
- Thank you, Sam, I appreciate it.
- Thank you for listeningto my conversation today
with Dr. Topeka K. Sam.
I am so inspired by the work that she does
and grateful that she tookher own lived experience
and channeled it intohelping so many others,
the most vulnerable in our communities.
If you liked today's episode,
(33:53):
please subscribe on yourfavorite podcast channel
so you don't miss anymore, andplease share it with others.
I hope today you are inspiredto lead with purpose.
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