October 30, 2024 • 43 mins
Li Haslett Chen is the founder and CEO of Howl, a technology platform that democratizes access to retail's next frontier, social commerce. Under Li's leadership, Howl has been named one of Fast Company's Most Innovative Companies, and one of the Most Promising AI Companies by Forbes. Li has been recognized as a retail disruptor by the Financial Times, a World Economic Forum Technology Pioneer, and included on Ad Age's 40-Under-40. In this episode of the Women on the Move Podcast, Li sits down with host Sam Saperstein to discuss her career journey.
Three passions
Li says she has three passions that drove her early career (and later inspired her to start Howl): content, retail, and data science. She also loves systems-based thinking, she says, and throughout her career she’s focused on helping creatives who are passionate about retail to build their businesses. Growing up in Beijing in the early 1990s was instrumental. “That's when China really opened to the world,” she says. “I remember being five years old, and us getting our first refrigerator. I think all of that made me feel so in awe of products, and services, and how it really changes our lives. So I always knew I wanted to be in this industry, and at the same time, I never imagined I would be an entrepreneur.”
It was a combination of math, science, and creative industries that allowed Li to approach problems in a different way, she says. “I studied biochemical engineering, but I also grew up in a family of creatives,” she tells Sam. “And while I was [attending] Columbia University, I also did a lot of internships in [New York City] that was very grounded in the creative industries.”
Li was running the marketing at an e-commerce startup when one of the VC investors asked her if there was something that she wanted to build. “I think the reality is he saw some of those tendencies, in terms of the way that I would attack problems, or think about building technology within this company,” she tells Sam. “And within a year of him asking me that question, we had our first check, started building our first company, and that was really the pathway that made all of this possible.”
Entrepreneurial bug
The first company that Li founded was Narrativ, a business that connected large publications with other businesses that could help them better monetize their shopping recommendations. “It was my first foray as a startup,” she says. “It was really exciting, in terms of really the initial success that we had right out the gate.”
In fact, she almost didn’t launch Howl, due to the big success of Narrativ. “But, at the back of my head, there was always this thought of, what if we could give more people access?” she recalls. “What if it wasn't just the largest publications and companies in the world? What about other content creators and creatives who also have a perspective on what people should buy, and what they love, and they want to share it, and make money from it? Could we bring a lot of the technology, and the insight that we've developed at Narrativ, to a much larger ecosystem?”
Howl
Li describes Howl as a marketplace that connects people with something that they want to talk about, promote, and share with their community and with the brands that make those products and services. “So it could be that I'm obsessed with my three-pound laptop, because I am walking around all over the city taking meetings and I need something light,” she explains. “It could be a creator that loves this sunscreen that doesn't leave a cast, because she has darker skin. It could be sneakerhead discords, or folks on YouTube talking about the latest Samsung Galaxy launch.”
In general, she says, it’s about the products you want to “howl” about to your friends and family. The platform gives people the chance to make promoting those goods and services. Li says most creators on Howl are able to make a real living, earning tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars a year from promoting and working with brands they already love to talk about.
As a leader, Li is committed to helping other women. “I am a big believer that what you send out into the universe is received,” she says. She notes that 75 percent of Howl’s leadership team are women, as is more than 50 percent of the company as a whole. “I think it's very rare in the technology industry,” she says.
Disclaimer: The speakers’ opinions belong to them and may differ from opinions of JPMorgan Chase & Co. and its affiliates. Views presented on this podcast are those of the speakers; they are as of October 29th, 2024 and they may not
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(00:00):
- I'm a big believer that
(00:02):
what you send out intothe universe is received.
So when you talk about our team,
yes, 75% of our leadership team are women.
More than 50% of our company is female,
and I think it's very rarein the technology industry.
- Yes.
(00:23):
- Welcome back to theWomen on the Move Podcast,
I'm your host, Sam Saperstein.
In this episode, I speakwith Li Haslet Chen,
the founder and CEO of Howl,
a technology platformthat democratizes access
to retail's nextfrontier, social commerce.
Under Li's leadership, Howl has been named
one of Fast Companies,most innovative companies,
(00:44):
and one of the most promisingAI companies by Forbes.
Li has been recognizedas a retail disruptor
by the Financial Times,
a World Economic Forum technology pioneer
and included on Ad Age's 40 Under 40.
I'm so excited to speak with Li
and hear all about herremarkable backgrounds.
Li, welcome to the Womenon the Move podcast,
(01:04):
it's so great to have you here.
- Thank you so much, I'mvery excited to chat today.
- We have a lot to talk about.
So would love to startoff with your career,
your early career journeybefore you got to Howl,
can you tell us what you did
and some of the keymilestones along the way?
- Yeah, it's going tosound a little nerdy.
- I like that.
(01:24):
- But I think my passions reallydrove both my early career
and why I started Howl, I love content.
I love retail, I love data science.
- Love it.- Love systems based thinking.
So I think this idea of media and retail
and technology kind of grounds
(01:46):
everything I've done in my career.
Before Howl, I ran marketing
at a startup called Moda Operandi.
I started a company called Narrative,
which is really thefoundation for Howl today.
And all of that is basedin helping creatives
and helping people who arereally passionate about retail
(02:06):
build businesses.
- Oh, that's great.
And so what drew you tothe combination of that?
Is there some thread you can
kind of pull from oneexperience to the next
and why you kind of made those moves?
- I think the reason whyI'm in the industry at all
started with my family and my upbringing.
So I grew up in Beijingin the early nineties
(02:29):
and in a history lesson of sorts,
that was when Reform and open happened,
so that's when Chinareally opened to the world.
I remember being five years old
and us getting our first refrigerator.
And I think all of thatmade me feel so in awe of
products and services and howit really changes our lives.
(02:53):
So I always knew I wantedto be in this industry.
And at the same time,
I never imagined I wouldbe an entrepreneur.
I think it really startedwhen I was running marketing
at the e-commerce startup that I was at
before founding Howl.
And one of the venture capitalists
(03:14):
and investors of that business
asked me if there was somethingthat I wanted to build.
And I think the reality is he saw
some of those tendencies
in terms of the way thatI would attack problems
or think about buildingtechnology within this company.
And within a year of himasking me that question,
(03:38):
we had our first check, startedbuilding our first company,
and that was really the pathway
that made all of this possible.
- What I love is that you described to me
having a consulting background also.
So you knew the problemsolving method for sure, data
and that entrepreneurshipspark seems to be,
have been created there atthat first jump that you took.
(04:01):
And then amazing that someoneelse kind of saw that in you
and sounds like reallyencouraged you to pursue that.
Was there an aha moment thatyou had, that you thought,
yeah, I could do that,I'd love to do that.
- So I studied biochemical engineering,
had that kind of like STEM background,
but I also grew up ina family of creatives.
(04:23):
And while I was at Columbia,
I also did a lot ofinternships in the city
that was very grounded inthe creative industries.
And I think it's thatcombination of math, science,
and kind of creative industries that
allowed me to approachproblems in a different way.
I'll have to say that my timeat McKinsey was grueling.
(04:44):
I did not know what McKinsey was
before I applied to work there.
- Interesting, okay.
- Which is maybe a strange route.
- Most people will knowwhat they're getting into.
- But I was actuallyworking at Vogue at the time
and one of the editors there,her husband worked at Bain
which is another consulting firm.
(05:05):
And she and I were talkingabout my career and I was like,
I don't know if I wantto end up in editorial,
but I have this combination of interests,
and she thought that retailconsulting might be the fit.
- Yeah, that was a great idea.
- I tried to work at Bain,went to the application page,
it was all closed.
So then Wikipedia told me that
(05:26):
there was BCG, and McKinsey.
- I love that.
- And the consultingindustry is quite small.
Ended up applying thereand was at McKinsey for,
about three and a half years.
It definitely gave me some of that
rigorous discipline thinkingthat we put into use today.
And I would say one of thebest parts about McKinsey
is the emphasis on communicationand on storytelling.
(05:49):
And in being able tonot just have a strategy
but be able to communicatethat out to others.
- I love it.
Well, we didn't get to overlap there,
which is a shame, but I'mglad we're talking today.
Okay, so before Howl,
you also founded acompany called Narrative.
Tell us about that.
So what was your first foray
on your own into entrepreneurship?
- Yeah, narrative was acompany that connected
(06:11):
large publications with businesses
that could help them
better monetize theirshopping recommendations.
It was my first foray as a startup,
it was really exciting in terms of
really the initial successthat we had right out the gate.
(06:31):
And I think there was a real moment
where I almost didn't build Howl
because Narrative was so successful,
we won a lot of awards,
I think we had real product market fit.
There was an AI enginethat we built behind this.
And I think we were verymuch leading that pack.
But at the back of my head,
there was always this thought of,
(06:54):
what if we could give more people access?
What if it wasn't justthe largest publications
and companies in the world?
What about other contentcreators and creatives
who also have a perspectiveon what people should buy
and what they love and they want to share
and make money from it,
could we bring a lot of the technology
(07:14):
and the insight that we'vedeveloped at Narrative
to a much larger ecosystem?
- So you wanted to go more to individuals
and really enable themto share their stories,
work with brands, be creators themselves
versus the bigger companies.
- Yeah, it's really about broadening
and really settingpossibly a larger ambition
to what we'd built goingfrom hundreds of customers
(07:36):
who are very large to tens of thousands,
millions of customers whowould use our platform,
make money, be able to builda career using our platform.
- So we're going to spend alot of time talking about Howl,
so I'd love you for youto tell us what is Howl,
describe the platform,
and what is, what problem isit solving for its customers?
(07:58):
- Howl is a marketplacethat connects people
with something that theywant to talk about, promote,
share with theircommunity, with the brands
that make those products and services.
So it could be that I am obsessedwith my three pound laptop
(08:23):
because I am walkingaround all over the city
taking meetings and Ineed something light.
It could be a creatorthat loves this sunscreen,
that doesn't leave a castbecause she has darker skin.
It could be sneakerhead, Discords, or
folks on YouTube talking about the latest
(08:43):
Samsung Galaxy launch.
It's really anything that, aswe say, you want to howl about
and you want to share
that now you can make money from,
make money from promotingthose goods and services.
So if you are a creator ora person that joins Howl,
the first thing that you'll see
(09:03):
is a list of brands and products
that you might love to post about.
Once you're matched, youuse our shops, our links
to promote those goods and services
and you'll receive bonuses,commissions, referrals,
and compensation for brands
(09:26):
to be able to pay youfor those activities.
What we see is that,
most creators on Howl areable to make a real living.
That means that you'reearning tens of thousands,
hundreds of thousandsdollars a year from promoting
and working with brands thatyou already love to talk about.
- That is unbelievable,
(09:46):
talk about an industrythat did not exist before,
a livelihood that never existedbefore, that is amazing.
So I'm a content creator,I love a certain brand,
how do I get matchedwith my favorite brands?
- It starts with whatyou're already using today.
So we're a big believer in honesty
and that being grounded in the products
(10:07):
that you already love.
- Got it.
- So oftentimes, the prompt might be,
what did you use today?
What are some products thatyou used and love today?
Or if you're walking aroundand you have your phone,
like take a picture ofsomething that excites you.
And that can ground thefirst few partnerships.
(10:30):
What we also see is that with creators
who are already very successful,sometimes it's helpful
to open their eyes and widentheir horizons as well.
So as an example, there wasa beauty creator on Howl
who was already making
more than a hundredthousand dollars a year,
selling millions of dollars of products.
- Incredible.
(10:51):
- And you could say like,great, that is a success story.
But when we looked at our data
and compared creators of the same size
who were male and female,
we actually saw that malecreators made more money.
- In the beauty space or just in general?
- [Li] In general.
- Ah, okay, and why?
- And it was surprisingbecause I think that creators
(11:14):
and influencers are oftenassociated with being female.
It turns out that male creatorsare making a lot of content
about consumer electronics products,
which have higher price points.
So higher price points, conversion.
And then we talk to thecreator and we're like,
(11:34):
hey, do you have a phone?
Do you have a TV?
Did you help make purchasingdecisions in your family
about consumer electronics products
and these household items?
And of course you did, of course you did.
(11:56):
And there was this question of like, okay,
but if I posted out this on Instagram,
is that going to be weird?
Like my audience just expects me
to give them beauty recommendations,
how do I maybe think about expanding that?
Is that something thatthey even think that I
have a voice in?
And the reality is shehad very strong opinions
about all of these topicsand with some encouragement,
(12:22):
we connected her to a very largeconsumer electronics brand.
And last fall, she becamethe number one driver
of television sales within the platform.
- That's unbelievable.
- And it was her firsttime posting about TVs.
(12:42):
- That is so powerful that youcan play a role in doing that
for so many reasons, forher, for her livelihood,
for the people who hear fromher, that is just great.
And you don't see thatfrom other platforms,
no one's stepping in tohelp their users be better.
- Yeah, and I think what'sso interesting is that
this creator took a totallydifferent perspective to
(13:04):
talking about TVs than what you might see.
It wasn't about justthe technological specs,
it was, Hey, here's howit looks like in my home,
this is why I like the design.
These are the considerationsI had to the size
and to the placement.
And these are the companiesthat I also thought about using.
So it was a different set of criteria
that she was interested in
and that connected sodeeply with her audience,
(13:26):
it was a very different perspective
than the content that already existed.
So I think it's always important to ask
why do I love something?
And if you can explainthat and tell a story
and also bring some fun intothat, then you're qualified.
- And you're bringing suchan inclusive perspective now,
not just audience and people perspective.
- Absolutely.
(13:47):
- When I think about the way brands
have to control the message today,
it's not the same as it used to be, right?
In pre-social media days,you had fewer channels,
you could really controlyour message a lot better.
And now, consumers cantake over your message
and certainly talk aboutyour brand in many ways.
How do you as Howl control for that
(14:08):
or make sure people, thecreators on your platform
are doing what brandsthink is the right thing?
- Well I think it startsgetting into the DNA
of what is Howl and why is Howl?
And also how we are differentthan most of the platforms
that creators had access to before.
And at the center of that is inclusivity.
(14:28):
And I think you're talking about
what are inclusive marketing practices,
and it starts with inclusivebusiness practices.
There have been platforms thatconnect brands and creators,
but they are pretty notorious
within that influencer marketingindustry for gatekeeping
or for central casting.
(14:50):
And that really limits the type of people
who get access to brand deals.
And to sponsorships and referral dollars.
Howl does not have a apply now
exclusive kind of elite statusand that fully filters out,
(15:13):
who I think traditionally has been deemed
like the faces of brandpartnerships or of marketing.
Today, we have about 17,000 creators
who have signed up and used Howl.
Earlier this summer, we crosseda really exciting milestone.
Over $150 million ofearnings have been paid out
(15:38):
to creators who use Howl.
And that's because they've generated
over half a billion dollar of sales.
- That's incredible.- Of retail goods.
So I think the numbers reallyspeak for it themselves
when it comes to how differentgroups and individuals
and identities show up in marketing.
And that brands should absolutely provide
(16:00):
clarity into why their products are good
and why people should care.
But when it comes to how thisproduct fits into my life,
why you should care about it,
we see that the more there are scripts,
the more that there's control,
the more people see through it
and get called out on social media.
- It's so interesting, whenyou're doing brand research
(16:22):
or market research for a product,
you really want to getclose to the consumer
and you want to understand
how they're going to use your products.
You want to watch them in their element,
maybe they're at home using it,
and that can be really difficult to do,
and not a lot of brandsI think invest in that.
But what you're describing goesright to the heart of that.
So you're seeing an actualcreator use a product,
you're getting so closeto that, the look and feel
(16:44):
and the way the affinityshows up for the product,
I think that's really fascinating.
How did you get to that point
where you thought we could do this?
Like tell us about that social commerce,
kind of end-to-end experience
that you knew you could plug into.
- Yeah, so I think it was grounded first
in Narrative, right?
So if you're familiar withWirecutter or Housekeeping,
(17:06):
you know that there, it'sgrounded in product reviews.
What we saw was that there was an influx
of people every month goingto the Narrative website
and asking us, can we use your links?
Like I see your links onthe New York Times website
and I see that you're powering commerce
(17:27):
in a way that feels net new,can we use your product?
I make the same kind ofrecommendations on YouTube.
I have a channel thathas 270,000 followers
and millions of views,
and I also want to be able towork with brands in the same way
where it's not scripted,it's not controlled,
but I can make a real living
from talking about these products.
(17:50):
So it took kind of broadening that focus
and also asking ourselves, okay,
how do you build a reallyeasy to use intuitive platform
for tens of thousands of people.
- Right, right, right.
- And how do you scale to,billions of transactions
and dollars flowing through the system?
And that's really whatled us to build Howl
(18:12):
and to imagine that.
- That's incredible, isit fair to say then your
idea for Howl came fromthe Narrative community
and customers you were seeing there?
- It came from I think thecurious minds of the internet.
Meaning in the lens of yourquestion like is Howl B2B,
(18:34):
is it B2C?
We are B2B2C, which meansit may not always be obvious
when someone is a Howl customer today.
They're using our infrastructure,
they're using our marketplace,
but we very much sit inservice of their business.
And it is the creator andthe brands they work with
(18:55):
that very much take the forefront.
So I would say thatHowl almost wasn't built
because Narrative was very successful
and there was a lot of safety and clarity
in what we were doing.
We did not need to open up our marketplace
to a totally differentset and type of customer.
(19:18):
But I think there was a gutfeeling that I had as a founder
in reading all of the inquiriesand seeing all the interest.
- That's the goal, that'swhere it's at, right?
It's to understand demand in a market,
you have to get to that level of
real need and customer noise, if you will,
(19:40):
or customer signals
which people are looking for all the time.
So the fact that you were right there
and had an outlet to do that,I think is really incredible.
Now you've mentioned here andreferred to some risk taking.
And you also told mebefore we started this,
you've taken other risks
in your background and in your career.
Where does that come from?
(20:00):
Where does your comfort with taking risks
and maybe doing what youdidn't think you would do,
where do you think that came from for you?
- Risk is interesting, Igrew up doing gymnastics.
Maybe it's apt because theOlympics are in a few weeks.
And I think what's interesting
about having a sports background
(20:21):
is that you take a lotof calculated risks.
You have a coach that'sstanding next to you,
you have a spotter.
No one is trying to go into the air
and fall down and hurt themselves.
Being able to know youhave the trust and safety
and support of a team,
(20:42):
understanding that yourjob is really to listen,
grow, try new things, andhopefully do it better every time,
that to me is risk taking.
- Yeah, I love that.
Did you find, I mean, I'm so curious
'cause gymnastics is such a intense
practicing all the time, as you said,
(21:03):
people around you,really technique focused.
Were there times where you felt like,
okay, I do have that support,I am going to push myself,
I'm going to see what else I can do.
And does that sit with younow today as you're a founder?
- It's a confidence game, part of it.
So one of the things thatmy coach used to say to me,
especially after I messed up,
(21:24):
if you don't believe it a hundred percent,
there's a 0% chance you'll succeed.
So that belief...- Had to be there.
- Because it's hard,building a company is hard,
doing flips in the air is hard.
So I think the confidence ofbeing able to start anything,
(21:44):
whether it's the beginning of your day
or going into a presentationor a set of meetings
or whatever it is thatyou're trying to do,
just taking that breathin and centering yourself,
I'm very, I'm a big believer
in some of these mindfulness practices
and saying like, okay, wheream I feeling about this?
Being honest about that,
but also really centering yourself
(22:06):
in the belief that you are prepared
or that you've asked for supportwhen you need it, need it.
That really grounds, Ithink, the day to day.
- That's terrific.
- And I do think it's important
for you to be able totell your team, like,
Hey, I feel really distracted today
and here are some of thethings that you can help with
(22:26):
because we all have this large project
and I want to be able tofocus on these two things
that I think are highest priority.
And I want to enable and empower you
to be able to focus on these other pieces,
and how do we work togetheras one team to do that?
- That is great, I mean, that'sa level of communication,
I think that's very special,
I don't think that happensall the time in companies,
but there's also a vulnerabilitythere where you're saying,
(22:47):
this is how I'm doing andthis is where I want to focus.
But you're also trusting a team,
which I can really understand
that whole consulting background now
coming into the fore for you
'cause it really resonates with me
as to how you describe that.
When you think about Howl, whatare some of your objectives,
both near term and longer term?
- Howl really exists
(23:08):
to build a more inclusivesocial commerce system.
Because it is thistrillion dollar industry
and yet access is reallygiven to the top 1%,
we want to change that.
We're not here to be middlemenwho take egregious fees,
to create gatekeeping,
we're a fully transparentplatform that creators use
(23:31):
to work with world-class brands.
Five years from now, 10 years from now,
I hope that tens of thousands,millions of creators
have found financial freedom.
- That's great.- And have been able to build
their own businesses using our technology.
And we find that the moretransparent our practices can be
and the more that peopleunderstand what they're worth
(23:52):
and how to negotiate forthat, how to find that,
how to learn from othersin terms of what's working
and also what to stay away from,
those are a lot of the user experiences
and products that we reallyprioritize within Howl.
- So do you help creators understand
what they could get paid for something
or how to talk to brands, all the above?
(24:14):
- Yeah, absolutely.- That's amazing.
- I actually think one of themore formative experiences
I had, we talked about McKinsey,
we talked about someof these bigger things.
But when I was in college,I worked at Bloomingdale's.
- Love them too.
- And it was out ofnecessity, like I was broke,
this is when internshipswere also generally unpaid.
(24:36):
And I did not expectit to be so formative.
It taught me two things, one,how to speak to customers.
Going up to someone and asking them
what they're looking foris a vulnerable experience.
And yes, they're there to buy something,
but continuously opening that conversation
(24:58):
and really paying attention
to the information they're giving you,
both verbal and physical cues,that's a whole collaboration.
And it's more about them thanis ever going to be about you.
The second thing that Ilearned at Bloomingdale's
was really what it means to be on a team.
(25:19):
And I think that I learnedthings about teamwork
that maybe are bigger than
what I even saw at acompany like McKinsey, why?
When I first startedworking at Bloomingdale's,
I had no idea what people liked to buy.
Like I didn't know what sold,
I didn't know the SKUs that were moving,
I didn't know the promotionsthat were running,
(25:40):
none of that.
It was really my fellowlike sales associates
who really took me under their wing,
and they're like, stay awayfrom that, focus on this,
this is what's moving.
And I would watch them and I'm like,
oh, that's how you sell.
- That's great.
- So I think the community aspect
of what it means to learn from each other,
(26:02):
and taking that intosocial commerce has been
one of the most important components
of what we've built at Howl.
So sharing what's sellingfor specific communities,
also sharing the highlights
and really incentivizing creators
to share that news with each other,
it's not, it doesn'tneed to be, I should say,
(26:27):
a game where you'relooking out for yourself,
and I think often creators feel pitted
against each other or thatthere's only one spot,
and the reality is that's not true.
There's lots of dollarsavailable for everyone,
and brands would beexcited to sell more things
and have this rising tide
versus this kind oflike isolated ecosystem.
(26:47):
- Yeah, more narrow.
I just love those stories,
I can't believe you'resuch a young age working
where you were doing this in retail
to have those really formative experiences
that you can now talk aboutand use in your own company,
It's just amazing.
So tell me about your current team,
and I will tell you, whenI went on your website,
I was very pleased to seeit's a very female team,
(27:08):
leadership team, so thank you for that.
What is your leadership style?
What do you think you,
based on all the thingsyou've described and learned,
what is it that you'retrying to convey to them
on a daily basis
or even from a visionaryperspective over time?
- So, I'm a big believer that
what you send out intothe universe is received.
(27:29):
So when you talk about our team,
yes, 75% of our leadership team are women,
more than 50% of our company is female,
and I think it's very rarein the technology industry.
Was that purposeful?
No, was I likely sending out vibes
or in the way that we-
(27:49):
- Openness to receive it.
- Invited conversationabout what we were building
and why and for who,
and did that createmore diverse candidates
coming into our leadershipteam and our company?
Absolutely.
So I think for anyone who'slooking to build a business,
it starts with the mission and vision.
(28:11):
I think that's because our mission
is really centered in inclusivity,
that is naturally mirroredwithin our leadership team.
And I would say withinmy leadership style,
we continue to grow into it, right?
So I think it's easy to think about
what it means to set avision and to allow others
(28:33):
to build and to be creative.
I'm a big believer thatcreativity is a team sport.
There are practices andrituals that support that.
So I would say as aleader, I set the vision,
but I also set the culture.
- Yeah, for sure.
(28:53):
- And from a culture perspective,creativity and teamwork,
that comes from great communication.
Communication means agendas,
it means not wasting eachother's time, it means clarity,
it means being explicitinstead of implicit.
It means being clear and concise
(29:16):
and the remote nature andfast-paced nature of how we work
really means that the bar forall of this is even higher.
- Yeah, there's a lot more to do.
And you meant, so you toldme Howl is a remote company,
you have your employees spread out.
How do you use thatboth to your advantage,
and then how do you just compensate for
(29:39):
what you need to do whenyou're not in person?
Like tell me about boththe pros and the cons
that you're managing from that.
- Yeah, so I think the pros is that
it has helped us build anincredibly diverse team.
So we have folks in Ireland,
we have folks you know,in Oregon, in Florida,
in New York, all over.
And I think what we see is that
(30:01):
the way that each cityhas their own personality,
we're able to pull from the best
of all of these different cities,
experiences, backgrounds,companies in a way that
could never have beenpossible if we had a office
that was only in New York City.
That said, time zones.
- Always hard, oh, andthe farther the harder.
(30:24):
- Yes, and also we've learned
that there are certain activities
that are better done in person.
So for example, at thebeginning of a year,
annual planning, strategic planning,
debate and debate is important.
Being able to talk throughideas, to have jam sessions,
(30:46):
to be able to work through things,
that needs to happen on a regular basis.
So for us, that's bothannual and quarterly.
We also see that there are different teams
that do work better whenthey can meet in person
more frequently than other teams.
So what we see is that engineering,
generally okay withstandups and being remote.
(31:08):
But some of the more creative teams,
they do really well whenthey're sitting together.
When marketing teams andeditorial teams are building
and looking and able to kindof pop over your shoulder
and be able to have a laugh
and have an idea come to life together.
- There's an energy with that.- Yes.
(31:29):
- You really want to capture.
- Energy is exactly the right word.
And I think finding the zones
where we can create that energy
so that you can both enjoy
a lot of the benefits thatcome with remote work,
as well as still inculcatethe energy that teams need,
that's a real art.
- Oh, I love that, that is great.
(31:51):
So along the way,inevitably you probably had
some challenges that youmight have not anticipated.
Tell me about a time with Howl,
or a narrative where youtried to go down a path
that didn't quite work,
and what was the challengeyou were dealing with
and how did you pivot away from that?
- I think the mostchallenging thing has been
(32:12):
continuing to believe inbuilding only what you love.
- Versus what people aretelling you to build?
- There's a really greatquote from Rick Rubin
and he says something along the lines of,
(32:33):
if you don't love it
but you think someone else might,
then you're already takingyourself off your path.
- Oh, yes.
- So it's not so much about
someone else telling you to do it,
but sometimes I think we all can be swayed
(32:55):
to do what seems like is popular
or what has made other people successful.
And that feels likeit's a well paved road,
but there are going to be other moments
where something is weird orhard or specific or unique
and you love it and that's your vision,
(33:17):
and actually that producesa different kind of energy.
- Yeah, for sure, almost like a flow,
yeah, you lose track of time.
- And your customers can feel that too.
I think the most importantthing that I've learned
as a founder over thepast two years is that
we need to focus on thethings that make us unique.
(33:39):
And in building stuff we love,
our customers will love it too,
and you'll attract the peoplewho value the differences.
- Yeah, I love that.
So you've spoken to Medium
and had an interviewwhere you talked about
disruption and innovation and you said
the innovative approachesyou're taking at Howl
(34:00):
to disrupt the industryreally are significant.
And I'd love for you to talkabout what that means to you.
What does disruptionparticularly right now in your
business and industry mean?
- Yeah, so there are a couplelayers to the disruption.
I'm going to start at the very
kind of most foundationallayer of this, which is data.
(34:21):
The media industry, theadvertising industry, retail,
all of it is powered from asystem of data attribution
that says if you produce this content,
if you watch this video,then I will assign value
(34:41):
as to whether or notit resulted in a sale.
Attribution basically says
I'm going to create a measurement system
for whether or not you produced value,
ROI, return on investment,
Google, Facebook, Meta, TikTok,
they are great at attribution.
(35:01):
These platforms really built to maximize
their own ability to take credit
for what they've done withintheir advertising systems.
- Creators don't havethousands of engineers
who are helping them correctly attribute
the value that they'vecreated for a brand.
So the first thing that we did at Howl
(35:24):
was build a world classattribution system.
It really allows creatorsto go head to head
with large platforms so thatthey're not disintermediated,
so that they are gettingcomplete credit and full credit
and fair credit for the resultsthat they're generating.
This is a large and fast moving system.
One of the biggest ways
(35:45):
that we're disrupting attribution in 2024
is the way that we'reconnecting to retail media.
Retail media started with Amazon ads
and now, it's a $20 billion space
that's growing 50% year over year,
like the numbers are staggering.
And I would bet that most people
(36:05):
listening to this right now
have no idea what retail media is.
- No, I mean, I think probably
more explanation wouldbe warranted, so tell us
specifically what you'retalking about and playing in.
- Yeah, so retail media ispremised on this idea that
eventually, cookies may go away.
(36:25):
We've kind of heard aboutthis maybe even as consumers,
and that the Metas andGoogles of the world
will be less effective
in their ability to deliver advertising.
In that landscape, Amazon,Walmart, Home Depot, Best Buy,
any of the places where youmight buy goods and services
(36:49):
become more important advertisingecosystems for brands.
So retail media is the business
of these retailers becomingadvertising companies.
And by connecting intotheir technology stacks
and connecting intoindustry leading attribution
(37:11):
on these new advertising playgrounds,
we are giving creatorsfirst and equal access
to really profitable andlucrative earnings opportunities.
- It's incredible to think about,
do you think this could have happened
five years ago, 10 years ago?
Or is this something uniquenow with the technology,
(37:33):
even with consumer behaviorthat's led us to this point?
- Technology and also understanding.
I think this is where
Narrative was such an importantpathway to building Howl
because it was so deeply technical.
- Right, right.
- And from a economic perspective,
in terms of what this meansas an economic engine,
(37:53):
attribution, receiving creditfor the work that you did
is the foundation foran equitable business.
And I think because so manycompanies have been built
without kind of this data foundation,
no matter what you add on top,
you're still just pullingfrom a smaller base.
(38:15):
So attribution is disruption one.
And I would say like disruption two
is really around community.
- Tell us more, in what way?
Like what would be special or new?
- Yeah, so on mostplatforms where you are,
connecting with brands,it's quite isolated.
So it is this feeling of like,
I'm here to find something for me.
(38:36):
And whether or not I'm successful
falls entirely to my own skillset.
And I think this is wherelearning from others,
getting real time notificationson what's happening.
Being able to parse thenoise from what's reality
'cause sometimes on social media,
it looks like something's going viral
(38:58):
and then no one's making money from it.
So having an objective reality as to,
hey, this is actually working,
and then being incentivizedto share it with others.
So actually earning more money on Howl,
because you are sharing aninsight and publishing it
and being able to really build community
(39:18):
around your ability to shareinformation with others
and empowering others to be successful,
that's how we really widenaccess and grow the system.
- So if I'm a creator on Howl, I could see
the people who are on my system,my platform, take a brand,
use the brand, buy things,
but also downstream whattheir users are also doing,
(39:39):
like can I actually see thewidening of the community
beyond my own immediate users?
- Yeah, one of the features
that we've been talkinga lot about internally
is this idea that let'ssay you have a smash
and you know that thiswas your best seller
and you made $10,000 in a day, which is...
(40:04):
- Unbelievable.
- Kind of normal for some creators.
And the idea might come to you like, okay,
I have this information, but do others?
On Howl, what if by sharingthis with five friends,
we will enable everyone toactually make more commission?
(40:25):
So instead of making 10% of the sale,
you all make 15% of the sale.
So that's a way where incentives
can actually empower peopleto share information.
Or perhaps you thinkthis is exciting enough
that you want to publishthis to the Howl homepage
so that anyone who's within that ecosystem
(40:46):
might be able to see thisinformation and learn from it.
- That's amazing.
It really feels like you'reon the cusp of something
that hopefully will power Howl,
but that also could be used by others.
The way you talk about juststructuring that community
and structuring the authentication
or just the way you'regoing to get referrals.
Do you ever think about,can you monetize that
(41:07):
beyond the company for others to use?
- What I love about theinternet and what I love about,
I think you're talkingabout how systems inspire
other systems, right?- Yes.
- And what I think isinteresting is I've been inspired
to build Howl and thereare a lot of mentors,
(41:31):
but also other spaces that Isee where this is normalized.
And social commerce does not normalize
community-based thinkingand sharing today,
but it might in the future.
And what I would love is, yes,
others join us in thisrevolution in social commerce,
but what if you took it intoa totally different industry,
in a totally different space?
- Like?- Financial services.
(41:52):
- Yes.- Yes, like media,
like creative rights and data sharing.
There's a lot of practicesthat I think isolate
creators and creativesand that weakens them,
whereas technology canenable sharing and access.
(42:14):
And the ability for a kindof like centralized system
to be able to deliver access,
I think is an interestinglike technology protocol.
- It is, it's amazing tohear you talk about that.
So what advice would yougive to other leaders
who are really lookingto spark such change
(42:36):
and then figure out a way to enable others
to go forth and drive change as well?
- My advice would be dowhat feels good to you.
It's grounded in reality, there's my path,
but what works for me couldbe completely different than
how someone else wants to lead.
(42:58):
And that's important, weshouldn't merge into one identity,
there's not one right way.
- Yeah, so, Li, you recently joined
the Warner Brothers Discovery Board,
so now you also have boardmember on your background too.
Tell me about that experienceand what that means for you
as a woman in the technology industry
and about your ability to leadnow through different ways?
- Yeah, I was definitely
(43:20):
not looking to join a board
in the sense that I havea full-time job as a CEO.
And as you know, most board members are,
in their late fifties, mid sixties,
they've had a whole career,
and honestly, I never felt that,
and I never considered thatI might be qualified to join
(43:43):
the Warner BrothersDiscovery Board, right.
It's a huge publicly traded company.
And I get a good number of questions
every week on LinkedIn onfrom people I don't know
of, Hey, how did you get on this board?
(44:05):
And that's created its own
kind of like interesting community for me.
One thing that has been odd
and slightly uncomfortablefor me to notice is that
in the past two years, only onewoman has reached out to me.
(44:30):
- Most of the people who haveare men is what you're saying?
- They're mostly men,
who are asking like,how do I get on a board?
And I think what I'vetaken from that is like,
oh wow, you believe you'requalified to join a board?
And it's about learning how to,
(44:53):
it's about learning how tohave the right conversations
or meet the right people.
And at the same time,
I've also had people, askme to speak on panels.
And it's the same question,how did you get on this board?
My self-reflection is that it has
(45:15):
something to do with mycareer and background.
And the fact that I am aperson who works in technology,
in marketing, in media, and international,
and those are the facets thatposition me to be qualified.
(45:37):
But the more important thing is that
there was a board seatthat had opened, right?
So Warner Discovery
emerged out of the AT&T transaction
and they were welcoming new board members.
(45:58):
So as we think about how women,
or how more diverse candidatesgo up for board seats
or become founders orjoin leadership teams,
it's really about first and foremost,
creating opportunities.
- Yeah, you have to havethat in the first place,
that's right.
- I'm a huge advocatefor setting term limits.
(46:21):
So today, you can be ona board for 30 years.
It's much more normal in other countries
to have seven or 10 year term limits.
It's not an age limit, it's a term limit.
And imagine if every seven years,
there were new board members,
how many people would have the opportunity
(46:43):
to raise their hand?
- Yep, and then we'dhave to do more searches
to find the right people for those.
And the networks would have to be bigger.
- Yes, exactly.
And then I think the secondpiece is, I got very lucky,
I was profiled in FastCompany and a recruiter saw,
this top 10 execs, tech execs piece.
But there are lots ofhighly qualified leaders
(47:06):
who are not being profiled by the press.
You could say like the presshas a perspective in this
and they could highlightdifferent candidates,
but I also think thatthere should be a database,
a place where people can gowhere it's not about networking
(47:26):
or going to the right dinners,where you can raise your hand
and say, here is my experience
and this is why I'm qualified.
And there's nothing foryou to feel afraid of
to be able to just join that community.
It's honestly shocking tome that this doesn't exist.
- So well, JP Morgan, wedo maintain a database
(47:47):
for people that we like to promote
and share with ourclients for board seats,
but it is a networking game.
So you have to be asked byclients to do that kind of thing,
they have to want to haveyour recommendations.
There are others whoare building this too.
But I think to your point, thoseseats have to be available.
But all the other things have to happen
before seats even open up.
You have to be on panels, youhave to be meeting people,
(48:09):
you have to be in articles,
you have to do so many otherthings kind of up the funnel
to get to that placement.
And so when we think abouttrying to improve that
and support that overall,it's all those activities
that you're describing that have to happen
and they have to happen together.
- What if the JP Morgandatabase were democratized?
How do we think about access to that?
(48:31):
I would love to work on that.
- Well, we should pull you in.
What you said about more men
reaching out to you aboutthe board than women
is so interesting, makes you wonder why,
whether women just lookat you and they say,
oh, that's so aspirational,I could never do that myself.
And men are thinking,just tell me how to do it
and I'm going to try it too.
(48:51):
Do you have a sense for that?
- In the past two years,
I've had the opportunityto speak at panels
and be invited to dinners.
And usually it's in some way, tied to
increasing diversity on boards
or I find myself being reallyattracted to organizations
(49:13):
that want to promote access for women.
When I'm at these dinnertables, it is shocking to me
that you'll be talking to,
the female CEO of a hugepharmaceuticals company
or CMO at a really successful business,
that's doing hundreds ofmillions of dollars a year.
(49:33):
And the tentativenessthe questions around,
what kind of programming orfurther education should I get
before even considering putting my name?
- The credential problem, Ineed to do something more.
(49:54):
- Yes, yes, and there's a whole weight
and burden of feeling like,well, I have my full-time job
and then I'm supposed toget these credentials,
so there's no way thatI would be considered.
And I would say, absolveyourself of this burden.
You are qualified
by the very nature of thejobs that you do every day.
(50:15):
And I think that many of theindustries and categories
where there are incrediblysuccessful female executives
are the ones that are becoming
more and more important for board roles.
It used to be that you would,
could only have a finance background.
Or there's so like 70% of the board
would have a financialservices background.
(50:35):
Marketing, design, technology, product,
these things that are moredeeply connected to your customer
and how to grow your customer base,
those things should be at the forefront.
You also have a populationin the United States
that is incredibly diverse,
and by 2040 the majoritywill be BiPOC and non-white.
(51:00):
How will your board andyour management team
meet that customer?
Are you prepared to do so?
So I hope these are the questions
that companies are asking themselves,
and I think it kind ofinevitably leads you to,
if you want to grow and be profitable,
that you should be making connectivity
between that customerbase and your management.
(51:23):
- Well Li, it's sogreat to speak with you,
to hear about what you're building
and how to really hear about
how you think aboutsystems and communities
and the future of social commerce.
So thank you so much for coming here
and speaking with us about this.
I wish you the best of luck.
- Thank you.
- Thank you for listeningto my conversation
(51:43):
with Li Haslet Chen.
I really loved this conversation today
and I learned so muchabout what Li is doing
to really bring inclusivevoices to the social platforms
and enabling them to reach more audiences
and get paid for it.
If you're enjoying our podcast,
please hit follow onyour favorite podcast app
and please share it with others.
I hope today that you learned something
(52:05):
that will help you to lead with purpose.
- I'm a big believer that
(00:02):
what you send out intothe universe is received.
So when you talk about our team,
yes, 75% of our leadership team are women.
More than 50% of our company is female,
and I think it's very rarein the technology industry.
- Yes.
(00:23):
- Welcome back to theWomen on the Move Podcast,
I'm your host, Sam Saperstein.
In this episode, I speakwith Li Haslet Chen,
the founder and CEO of Howl,
a technology platformthat democratizes access
to retail's nextfrontier, social commerce.
Under Li's leadership, Howl has been named
one of Fast Companies,most innovative companies,
(00:44):
and one of the most promisingAI companies by Forbes.
Li has been recognizedas a retail disruptor
by the Financial Times,
a World Economic Forum technology pioneer
and included on Ad Age's 40 Under 40.
I'm so excited to speak with Li
and hear all about herremarkable backgrounds.
Li, welcome to the Womenon the Move podcast,
(01:04):
it's so great to have you here.
- Thank you so much, I'mvery excited to chat today.
- We have a lot to talk about.
So would love to startoff with your career,
your early career journeybefore you got to Howl,
can you tell us what you did
and some of the keymilestones along the way?
- Yeah, it's going tosound a little nerdy.
- I like that.
(01:24):
- But I think my passions reallydrove both my early career
and why I started Howl, I love content.
I love retail, I love data science.
- Love it.- Love systems based thinking.
So I think this idea of media and retail
and technology kind of grounds
(01:46):
everything I've done in my career.
Before Howl, I ran marketing
at a startup called Moda Operandi.
I started a company called Narrative,
which is really thefoundation for Howl today.
And all of that is basedin helping creatives
and helping people who arereally passionate about retail
(02:06):
build businesses.
- Oh, that's great.
And so what drew you tothe combination of that?
Is there some thread you can
kind of pull from oneexperience to the next
and why you kind of made those moves?
- I think the reason whyI'm in the industry at all
started with my family and my upbringing.
So I grew up in Beijingin the early nineties
(02:29):
and in a history lesson of sorts,
that was when Reform and open happened,
so that's when Chinareally opened to the world.
I remember being five years old
and us getting our first refrigerator.
And I think all of thatmade me feel so in awe of
products and services and howit really changes our lives.
(02:53):
So I always knew I wantedto be in this industry.
And at the same time,
I never imagined I wouldbe an entrepreneur.
I think it really startedwhen I was running marketing
at the e-commerce startup that I was at
before founding Howl.
And one of the venture capitalists
(03:14):
and investors of that business
asked me if there was somethingthat I wanted to build.
And I think the reality is he saw
some of those tendencies
in terms of the way thatI would attack problems
or think about buildingtechnology within this company.
And within a year of himasking me that question,
(03:38):
we had our first check, startedbuilding our first company,
and that was really the pathway
that made all of this possible.
- What I love is that you described to me
having a consulting background also.
So you knew the problemsolving method for sure, data
and that entrepreneurshipspark seems to be,
have been created there atthat first jump that you took.
(04:01):
And then amazing that someoneelse kind of saw that in you
and sounds like reallyencouraged you to pursue that.
Was there an aha moment thatyou had, that you thought,
yeah, I could do that,I'd love to do that.
- So I studied biochemical engineering,
had that kind of like STEM background,
but I also grew up ina family of creatives.
(04:23):
And while I was at Columbia,
I also did a lot ofinternships in the city
that was very grounded inthe creative industries.
And I think it's thatcombination of math, science,
and kind of creative industries that
allowed me to approachproblems in a different way.
I'll have to say that my timeat McKinsey was grueling.
(04:44):
I did not know what McKinsey was
before I applied to work there.
- Interesting, okay.
- Which is maybe a strange route.
- Most people will knowwhat they're getting into.
- But I was actuallyworking at Vogue at the time
and one of the editors there,her husband worked at Bain
which is another consulting firm.
(05:05):
And she and I were talkingabout my career and I was like,
I don't know if I wantto end up in editorial,
but I have this combination of interests,
and she thought that retailconsulting might be the fit.
- Yeah, that was a great idea.
- I tried to work at Bain,went to the application page,
it was all closed.
So then Wikipedia told me that
(05:26):
there was BCG, and McKinsey.
- I love that.
- And the consultingindustry is quite small.
Ended up applying thereand was at McKinsey for,
about three and a half years.
It definitely gave me some of that
rigorous discipline thinkingthat we put into use today.
And I would say one of thebest parts about McKinsey
is the emphasis on communicationand on storytelling.
(05:49):
And in being able tonot just have a strategy
but be able to communicatethat out to others.
- I love it.
Well, we didn't get to overlap there,
which is a shame, but I'mglad we're talking today.
Okay, so before Howl,
you also founded acompany called Narrative.
Tell us about that.
So what was your first foray
on your own into entrepreneurship?
- Yeah, narrative was acompany that connected
(06:11):
large publications with businesses
that could help them
better monetize theirshopping recommendations.
It was my first foray as a startup,
it was really exciting in terms of
really the initial successthat we had right out the gate.
(06:31):
And I think there was a real moment
where I almost didn't build Howl
because Narrative was so successful,
we won a lot of awards,
I think we had real product market fit.
There was an AI enginethat we built behind this.
And I think we were verymuch leading that pack.
But at the back of my head,
there was always this thought of,
(06:54):
what if we could give more people access?
What if it wasn't justthe largest publications
and companies in the world?
What about other contentcreators and creatives
who also have a perspectiveon what people should buy
and what they love and they want to share
and make money from it,
could we bring a lot of the technology
(07:14):
and the insight that we'vedeveloped at Narrative
to a much larger ecosystem?
- So you wanted to go more to individuals
and really enable themto share their stories,
work with brands, be creators themselves
versus the bigger companies.
- Yeah, it's really about broadening
and really settingpossibly a larger ambition
to what we'd built goingfrom hundreds of customers
(07:36):
who are very large to tens of thousands,
millions of customers whowould use our platform,
make money, be able to builda career using our platform.
- So we're going to spend alot of time talking about Howl,
so I'd love you for youto tell us what is Howl,
describe the platform,
and what is, what problem isit solving for its customers?
(07:58):
- Howl is a marketplacethat connects people
with something that theywant to talk about, promote,
share with theircommunity, with the brands
that make those products and services.
So it could be that I am obsessedwith my three pound laptop
(08:23):
because I am walkingaround all over the city
taking meetings and Ineed something light.
It could be a creatorthat loves this sunscreen,
that doesn't leave a castbecause she has darker skin.
It could be sneakerhead, Discords, or
folks on YouTube talking about the latest
(08:43):
Samsung Galaxy launch.
It's really anything that, aswe say, you want to howl about
and you want to share
that now you can make money from,
make money from promotingthose goods and services.
So if you are a creator ora person that joins Howl,
the first thing that you'll see
(09:03):
is a list of brands and products
that you might love to post about.
Once you're matched, youuse our shops, our links
to promote those goods and services
and you'll receive bonuses,commissions, referrals,
and compensation for brands
(09:26):
to be able to pay youfor those activities.
What we see is that,
most creators on Howl areable to make a real living.
That means that you'reearning tens of thousands,
hundreds of thousandsdollars a year from promoting
and working with brands thatyou already love to talk about.
- That is unbelievable,
(09:46):
talk about an industrythat did not exist before,
a livelihood that never existedbefore, that is amazing.
So I'm a content creator,I love a certain brand,
how do I get matchedwith my favorite brands?
- It starts with whatyou're already using today.
So we're a big believer in honesty
and that being grounded in the products
(10:07):
that you already love.
- Got it.
- So oftentimes, the prompt might be,
what did you use today?
What are some products thatyou used and love today?
Or if you're walking aroundand you have your phone,
like take a picture ofsomething that excites you.
And that can ground thefirst few partnerships.
(10:30):
What we also see is that with creators
who are already very successful,sometimes it's helpful
to open their eyes and widentheir horizons as well.
So as an example, there wasa beauty creator on Howl
who was already making
more than a hundredthousand dollars a year,
selling millions of dollars of products.
- Incredible.
(10:51):
- And you could say like,great, that is a success story.
But when we looked at our data
and compared creators of the same size
who were male and female,
we actually saw that malecreators made more money.
- In the beauty space or just in general?
- [Li] In general.
- Ah, okay, and why?
- And it was surprisingbecause I think that creators
(11:14):
and influencers are oftenassociated with being female.
It turns out that male creatorsare making a lot of content
about consumer electronics products,
which have higher price points.
So higher price points, conversion.
And then we talk to thecreator and we're like,
(11:34):
hey, do you have a phone?
Do you have a TV?
Did you help make purchasingdecisions in your family
about consumer electronics products
and these household items?
And of course you did, of course you did.
(11:56):
And there was this question of like, okay,
but if I posted out this on Instagram,
is that going to be weird?
Like my audience just expects me
to give them beauty recommendations,
how do I maybe think about expanding that?
Is that something thatthey even think that I
have a voice in?
And the reality is shehad very strong opinions
about all of these topicsand with some encouragement,
(12:22):
we connected her to a very largeconsumer electronics brand.
And last fall, she becamethe number one driver
of television sales within the platform.
- That's unbelievable.
- And it was her firsttime posting about TVs.
(12:42):
- That is so powerful that youcan play a role in doing that
for so many reasons, forher, for her livelihood,
for the people who hear fromher, that is just great.
And you don't see thatfrom other platforms,
no one's stepping in tohelp their users be better.
- Yeah, and I think what'sso interesting is that
this creator took a totallydifferent perspective to
(13:04):
talking about TVs than what you might see.
It wasn't about justthe technological specs,
it was, Hey, here's howit looks like in my home,
this is why I like the design.
These are the considerationsI had to the size
and to the placement.
And these are the companiesthat I also thought about using.
So it was a different set of criteria
that she was interested in
and that connected sodeeply with her audience,
(13:26):
it was a very different perspective
than the content that already existed.
So I think it's always important to ask
why do I love something?
And if you can explainthat and tell a story
and also bring some fun intothat, then you're qualified.
- And you're bringing suchan inclusive perspective now,
not just audience and people perspective.
- Absolutely.
(13:47):
- When I think about the way brands
have to control the message today,
it's not the same as it used to be, right?
In pre-social media days,you had fewer channels,
you could really controlyour message a lot better.
And now, consumers cantake over your message
and certainly talk aboutyour brand in many ways.
How do you as Howl control for that
(14:08):
or make sure people, thecreators on your platform
are doing what brandsthink is the right thing?
- Well I think it startsgetting into the DNA
of what is Howl and why is Howl?
And also how we are differentthan most of the platforms
that creators had access to before.
And at the center of that is inclusivity.
(14:28):
And I think you're talking about
what are inclusive marketing practices,
and it starts with inclusivebusiness practices.
There have been platforms thatconnect brands and creators,
but they are pretty notorious
within that influencer marketingindustry for gatekeeping
or for central casting.
(14:50):
And that really limits the type of people
who get access to brand deals.
And to sponsorships and referral dollars.
Howl does not have a apply now
exclusive kind of elite statusand that fully filters out,
(15:13):
who I think traditionally has been deemed
like the faces of brandpartnerships or of marketing.
Today, we have about 17,000 creators
who have signed up and used Howl.
Earlier this summer, we crosseda really exciting milestone.
Over $150 million ofearnings have been paid out
(15:38):
to creators who use Howl.
And that's because they've generated
over half a billion dollar of sales.
- That's incredible.- Of retail goods.
So I think the numbers reallyspeak for it themselves
when it comes to how differentgroups and individuals
and identities show up in marketing.
And that brands should absolutely provide
(16:00):
clarity into why their products are good
and why people should care.
But when it comes to how thisproduct fits into my life,
why you should care about it,
we see that the more there are scripts,
the more that there's control,
the more people see through it
and get called out on social media.
- It's so interesting, whenyou're doing brand research
(16:22):
or market research for a product,
you really want to getclose to the consumer
and you want to understand
how they're going to use your products.
You want to watch them in their element,
maybe they're at home using it,
and that can be really difficult to do,
and not a lot of brandsI think invest in that.
But what you're describing goesright to the heart of that.
So you're seeing an actualcreator use a product,
you're getting so closeto that, the look and feel
(16:44):
and the way the affinityshows up for the product,
I think that's really fascinating.
How did you get to that point
where you thought we could do this?
Like tell us about that social commerce,
kind of end-to-end experience
that you knew you could plug into.
- Yeah, so I think it was grounded first
in Narrative, right?
So if you're familiar withWirecutter or Housekeeping,
(17:06):
you know that there, it'sgrounded in product reviews.
What we saw was that there was an influx
of people every month goingto the Narrative website
and asking us, can we use your links?
Like I see your links onthe New York Times website
and I see that you're powering commerce
(17:27):
in a way that feels net new,can we use your product?
I make the same kind ofrecommendations on YouTube.
I have a channel thathas 270,000 followers
and millions of views,
and I also want to be able towork with brands in the same way
where it's not scripted,it's not controlled,
but I can make a real living
from talking about these products.
(17:50):
So it took kind of broadening that focus
and also asking ourselves, okay,
how do you build a reallyeasy to use intuitive platform
for tens of thousands of people.
- Right, right, right.
- And how do you scale to,billions of transactions
and dollars flowing through the system?
And that's really whatled us to build Howl
(18:12):
and to imagine that.
- That's incredible, isit fair to say then your
idea for Howl came fromthe Narrative community
and customers you were seeing there?
- It came from I think thecurious minds of the internet.
Meaning in the lens of yourquestion like is Howl B2B,
(18:34):
is it B2C?
We are B2B2C, which meansit may not always be obvious
when someone is a Howl customer today.
They're using our infrastructure,
they're using our marketplace,
but we very much sit inservice of their business.
And it is the creator andthe brands they work with
(18:55):
that very much take the forefront.
So I would say thatHowl almost wasn't built
because Narrative was very successful
and there was a lot of safety and clarity
in what we were doing.
We did not need to open up our marketplace
to a totally differentset and type of customer.
(19:18):
But I think there was a gutfeeling that I had as a founder
in reading all of the inquiriesand seeing all the interest.
- That's the goal, that'swhere it's at, right?
It's to understand demand in a market,
you have to get to that level of
real need and customer noise, if you will,
(19:40):
or customer signals
which people are looking for all the time.
So the fact that you were right there
and had an outlet to do that,I think is really incredible.
Now you've mentioned here andreferred to some risk taking.
And you also told mebefore we started this,
you've taken other risks
in your background and in your career.
Where does that come from?
(20:00):
Where does your comfort with taking risks
and maybe doing what youdidn't think you would do,
where do you think that came from for you?
- Risk is interesting, Igrew up doing gymnastics.
Maybe it's apt because theOlympics are in a few weeks.
And I think what's interesting
about having a sports background
(20:21):
is that you take a lotof calculated risks.
You have a coach that'sstanding next to you,
you have a spotter.
No one is trying to go into the air
and fall down and hurt themselves.
Being able to know youhave the trust and safety
and support of a team,
(20:42):
understanding that yourjob is really to listen,
grow, try new things, andhopefully do it better every time,
that to me is risk taking.
- Yeah, I love that.
Did you find, I mean, I'm so curious
'cause gymnastics is such a intense
practicing all the time, as you said,
(21:03):
people around you,really technique focused.
Were there times where you felt like,
okay, I do have that support,I am going to push myself,
I'm going to see what else I can do.
And does that sit with younow today as you're a founder?
- It's a confidence game, part of it.
So one of the things thatmy coach used to say to me,
especially after I messed up,
(21:24):
if you don't believe it a hundred percent,
there's a 0% chance you'll succeed.
So that belief...- Had to be there.
- Because it's hard,building a company is hard,
doing flips in the air is hard.
So I think the confidence ofbeing able to start anything,
(21:44):
whether it's the beginning of your day
or going into a presentationor a set of meetings
or whatever it is thatyou're trying to do,
just taking that breathin and centering yourself,
I'm very, I'm a big believer
in some of these mindfulness practices
and saying like, okay, wheream I feeling about this?
Being honest about that,
but also really centering yourself
(22:06):
in the belief that you are prepared
or that you've asked for supportwhen you need it, need it.
That really grounds, Ithink, the day to day.
- That's terrific.
- And I do think it's important
for you to be able totell your team, like,
Hey, I feel really distracted today
and here are some of thethings that you can help with
(22:26):
because we all have this large project
and I want to be able tofocus on these two things
that I think are highest priority.
And I want to enable and empower you
to be able to focus on these other pieces,
and how do we work togetheras one team to do that?
- That is great, I mean, that'sa level of communication,
I think that's very special,
I don't think that happensall the time in companies,
but there's also a vulnerabilitythere where you're saying,
(22:47):
this is how I'm doing andthis is where I want to focus.
But you're also trusting a team,
which I can really understand
that whole consulting background now
coming into the fore for you
'cause it really resonates with me
as to how you describe that.
When you think about Howl, whatare some of your objectives,
both near term and longer term?
- Howl really exists
(23:08):
to build a more inclusivesocial commerce system.
Because it is thistrillion dollar industry
and yet access is reallygiven to the top 1%,
we want to change that.
We're not here to be middlemenwho take egregious fees,
to create gatekeeping,
we're a fully transparentplatform that creators use
(23:31):
to work with world-class brands.
Five years from now, 10 years from now,
I hope that tens of thousands,millions of creators
have found financial freedom.
- That's great.- And have been able to build
their own businesses using our technology.
And we find that the moretransparent our practices can be
and the more that peopleunderstand what they're worth
(23:52):
and how to negotiate forthat, how to find that,
how to learn from othersin terms of what's working
and also what to stay away from,
those are a lot of the user experiences
and products that we reallyprioritize within Howl.
- So do you help creators understand
what they could get paid for something
or how to talk to brands, all the above?
(24:14):
- Yeah, absolutely.- That's amazing.
- I actually think one of themore formative experiences
I had, we talked about McKinsey,
we talked about someof these bigger things.
But when I was in college,I worked at Bloomingdale's.
- Love them too.
- And it was out ofnecessity, like I was broke,
this is when internshipswere also generally unpaid.
(24:36):
And I did not expectit to be so formative.
It taught me two things, one,how to speak to customers.
Going up to someone and asking them
what they're looking foris a vulnerable experience.
And yes, they're there to buy something,
but continuously opening that conversation
(24:58):
and really paying attention
to the information they're giving you,
both verbal and physical cues,that's a whole collaboration.
And it's more about them thanis ever going to be about you.
The second thing that Ilearned at Bloomingdale's
was really what it means to be on a team.
(25:19):
And I think that I learnedthings about teamwork
that maybe are bigger than
what I even saw at acompany like McKinsey, why?
When I first startedworking at Bloomingdale's,
I had no idea what people liked to buy.
Like I didn't know what sold,
I didn't know the SKUs that were moving,
I didn't know the promotionsthat were running,
(25:40):
none of that.
It was really my fellowlike sales associates
who really took me under their wing,
and they're like, stay awayfrom that, focus on this,
this is what's moving.
And I would watch them and I'm like,
oh, that's how you sell.
- That's great.
- So I think the community aspect
of what it means to learn from each other,
(26:02):
and taking that intosocial commerce has been
one of the most important components
of what we've built at Howl.
So sharing what's sellingfor specific communities,
also sharing the highlights
and really incentivizing creators
to share that news with each other,
it's not, it doesn'tneed to be, I should say,
(26:27):
a game where you'relooking out for yourself,
and I think often creators feel pitted
against each other or thatthere's only one spot,
and the reality is that's not true.
There's lots of dollarsavailable for everyone,
and brands would beexcited to sell more things
and have this rising tide
versus this kind oflike isolated ecosystem.
(26:47):
- Yeah, more narrow.
I just love those stories,
I can't believe you'resuch a young age working
where you were doing this in retail
to have those really formative experiences
that you can now talk aboutand use in your own company,
It's just amazing.
So tell me about your current team,
and I will tell you, whenI went on your website,
I was very pleased to seeit's a very female team,
(27:08):
leadership team, so thank you for that.
What is your leadership style?
What do you think you,
based on all the thingsyou've described and learned,
what is it that you'retrying to convey to them
on a daily basis
or even from a visionaryperspective over time?
- So, I'm a big believer that
what you send out intothe universe is received.
(27:29):
So when you talk about our team,
yes, 75% of our leadership team are women,
more than 50% of our company is female,
and I think it's very rarein the technology industry.
Was that purposeful?
No, was I likely sending out vibes
or in the way that we-
(27:49):
- Openness to receive it.
- Invited conversationabout what we were building
and why and for who,
and did that createmore diverse candidates
coming into our leadershipteam and our company?
Absolutely.
So I think for anyone who'slooking to build a business,
it starts with the mission and vision.
(28:11):
I think that's because our mission
is really centered in inclusivity,
that is naturally mirroredwithin our leadership team.
And I would say withinmy leadership style,
we continue to grow into it, right?
So I think it's easy to think about
what it means to set avision and to allow others
(28:33):
to build and to be creative.
I'm a big believer thatcreativity is a team sport.
There are practices andrituals that support that.
So I would say as aleader, I set the vision,
but I also set the culture.
- Yeah, for sure.
(28:53):
- And from a culture perspective,creativity and teamwork,
that comes from great communication.
Communication means agendas,
it means not wasting eachother's time, it means clarity,
it means being explicitinstead of implicit.
It means being clear and concise
(29:16):
and the remote nature andfast-paced nature of how we work
really means that the bar forall of this is even higher.
- Yeah, there's a lot more to do.
And you meant, so you toldme Howl is a remote company,
you have your employees spread out.
How do you use thatboth to your advantage,
and then how do you just compensate for
(29:39):
what you need to do whenyou're not in person?
Like tell me about boththe pros and the cons
that you're managing from that.
- Yeah, so I think the pros is that
it has helped us build anincredibly diverse team.
So we have folks in Ireland,
we have folks you know,in Oregon, in Florida,
in New York, all over.
And I think what we see is that
(30:01):
the way that each cityhas their own personality,
we're able to pull from the best
of all of these different cities,
experiences, backgrounds,companies in a way that
could never have beenpossible if we had a office
that was only in New York City.
That said, time zones.
- Always hard, oh, andthe farther the harder.
(30:24):
- Yes, and also we've learned
that there are certain activities
that are better done in person.
So for example, at thebeginning of a year,
annual planning, strategic planning,
debate and debate is important.
Being able to talk throughideas, to have jam sessions,
(30:46):
to be able to work through things,
that needs to happen on a regular basis.
So for us, that's bothannual and quarterly.
We also see that there are different teams
that do work better whenthey can meet in person
more frequently than other teams.
So what we see is that engineering,
generally okay withstandups and being remote.
(31:08):
But some of the more creative teams,
they do really well whenthey're sitting together.
When marketing teams andeditorial teams are building
and looking and able to kindof pop over your shoulder
and be able to have a laugh
and have an idea come to life together.
- There's an energy with that.- Yes.
(31:29):
- You really want to capture.
- Energy is exactly the right word.
And I think finding the zones
where we can create that energy
so that you can both enjoy
a lot of the benefits thatcome with remote work,
as well as still inculcatethe energy that teams need,
that's a real art.
- Oh, I love that, that is great.
(31:51):
So along the way,inevitably you probably had
some challenges that youmight have not anticipated.
Tell me about a time with Howl,
or a narrative where youtried to go down a path
that didn't quite work,
and what was the challengeyou were dealing with
and how did you pivot away from that?
- I think the mostchallenging thing has been
(32:12):
continuing to believe inbuilding only what you love.
- Versus what people aretelling you to build?
- There's a really greatquote from Rick Rubin
and he says something along the lines of,
(32:33):
if you don't love it
but you think someone else might,
then you're already takingyourself off your path.
- Oh, yes.
- So it's not so much about
someone else telling you to do it,
but sometimes I think we all can be swayed
(32:55):
to do what seems like is popular
or what has made other people successful.
And that feels likeit's a well paved road,
but there are going to be other moments
where something is weird orhard or specific or unique
and you love it and that's your vision,
(33:17):
and actually that producesa different kind of energy.
- Yeah, for sure, almost like a flow,
yeah, you lose track of time.
- And your customers can feel that too.
I think the most importantthing that I've learned
as a founder over thepast two years is that
we need to focus on thethings that make us unique.
(33:39):
And in building stuff we love,
our customers will love it too,
and you'll attract the peoplewho value the differences.
- Yeah, I love that.
So you've spoken to Medium
and had an interviewwhere you talked about
disruption and innovation and you said
the innovative approachesyou're taking at Howl
(34:00):
to disrupt the industryreally are significant.
And I'd love for you to talkabout what that means to you.
What does disruptionparticularly right now in your
business and industry mean?
- Yeah, so there are a couplelayers to the disruption.
I'm going to start at the very
kind of most foundationallayer of this, which is data.
(34:21):
The media industry, theadvertising industry, retail,
all of it is powered from asystem of data attribution
that says if you produce this content,
if you watch this video,then I will assign value
(34:41):
as to whether or notit resulted in a sale.
Attribution basically says
I'm going to create a measurement system
for whether or not you produced value,
ROI, return on investment,
Google, Facebook, Meta, TikTok,
they are great at attribution.
(35:01):
These platforms really built to maximize
their own ability to take credit
for what they've done withintheir advertising systems.
- Creators don't havethousands of engineers
who are helping them correctly attribute
the value that they'vecreated for a brand.
So the first thing that we did at Howl
(35:24):
was build a world classattribution system.
It really allows creatorsto go head to head
with large platforms so thatthey're not disintermediated,
so that they are gettingcomplete credit and full credit
and fair credit for the resultsthat they're generating.
This is a large and fast moving system.
One of the biggest ways
(35:45):
that we're disrupting attribution in 2024
is the way that we'reconnecting to retail media.
Retail media started with Amazon ads
and now, it's a $20 billion space
that's growing 50% year over year,
like the numbers are staggering.
And I would bet that most people
(36:05):
listening to this right now
have no idea what retail media is.
- No, I mean, I think probably
more explanation wouldbe warranted, so tell us
specifically what you'retalking about and playing in.
- Yeah, so retail media ispremised on this idea that
eventually, cookies may go away.
(36:25):
We've kind of heard aboutthis maybe even as consumers,
and that the Metas andGoogles of the world
will be less effective
in their ability to deliver advertising.
In that landscape, Amazon,Walmart, Home Depot, Best Buy,
any of the places where youmight buy goods and services
(36:49):
become more important advertisingecosystems for brands.
So retail media is the business
of these retailers becomingadvertising companies.
And by connecting intotheir technology stacks
and connecting intoindustry leading attribution
(37:11):
on these new advertising playgrounds,
we are giving creatorsfirst and equal access
to really profitable andlucrative earnings opportunities.
- It's incredible to think about,
do you think this could have happened
five years ago, 10 years ago?
Or is this something uniquenow with the technology,
(37:33):
even with consumer behaviorthat's led us to this point?
- Technology and also understanding.
I think this is where
Narrative was such an importantpathway to building Howl
because it was so deeply technical.
- Right, right.
- And from a economic perspective,
in terms of what this meansas an economic engine,
(37:53):
attribution, receiving creditfor the work that you did
is the foundation foran equitable business.
And I think because so manycompanies have been built
without kind of this data foundation,
no matter what you add on top,
you're still just pullingfrom a smaller base.
(38:15):
So attribution is disruption one.
And I would say like disruption two
is really around community.
- Tell us more, in what way?
Like what would be special or new?
- Yeah, so on mostplatforms where you are,
connecting with brands,it's quite isolated.
So it is this feeling of like,
I'm here to find something for me.
(38:36):
And whether or not I'm successful
falls entirely to my own skillset.
And I think this is wherelearning from others,
getting real time notificationson what's happening.
Being able to parse thenoise from what's reality
'cause sometimes on social media,
it looks like something's going viral
(38:58):
and then no one's making money from it.
So having an objective reality as to,
hey, this is actually working,
and then being incentivizedto share it with others.
So actually earning more money on Howl,
because you are sharing aninsight and publishing it
and being able to really build community
(39:18):
around your ability to shareinformation with others
and empowering others to be successful,
that's how we really widenaccess and grow the system.
- So if I'm a creator on Howl, I could see
the people who are on my system,my platform, take a brand,
use the brand, buy things,
but also downstream whattheir users are also doing,
(39:39):
like can I actually see thewidening of the community
beyond my own immediate users?
- Yeah, one of the features
that we've been talkinga lot about internally
is this idea that let'ssay you have a smash
and you know that thiswas your best seller
and you made $10,000 in a day, which is...
(40:04):
- Unbelievable.
- Kind of normal for some creators.
And the idea might come to you like, okay,
I have this information, but do others?
On Howl, what if by sharingthis with five friends,
we will enable everyone toactually make more commission?
(40:25):
So instead of making 10% of the sale,
you all make 15% of the sale.
So that's a way where incentives
can actually empower peopleto share information.
Or perhaps you thinkthis is exciting enough
that you want to publishthis to the Howl homepage
so that anyone who's within that ecosystem
(40:46):
might be able to see thisinformation and learn from it.
- That's amazing.
It really feels like you'reon the cusp of something
that hopefully will power Howl,
but that also could be used by others.
The way you talk about juststructuring that community
and structuring the authentication
or just the way you'regoing to get referrals.
Do you ever think about,can you monetize that
(41:07):
beyond the company for others to use?
- What I love about theinternet and what I love about,
I think you're talkingabout how systems inspire
other systems, right?- Yes.
- And what I think isinteresting is I've been inspired
to build Howl and thereare a lot of mentors,
(41:31):
but also other spaces that Isee where this is normalized.
And social commerce does not normalize
community-based thinkingand sharing today,
but it might in the future.
And what I would love is, yes,
others join us in thisrevolution in social commerce,
but what if you took it intoa totally different industry,
in a totally different space?
- Like?- Financial services.
(41:52):
- Yes.- Yes, like media,
like creative rights and data sharing.
There's a lot of practicesthat I think isolate
creators and creativesand that weakens them,
whereas technology canenable sharing and access.
(42:14):
And the ability for a kindof like centralized system
to be able to deliver access,
I think is an interestinglike technology protocol.
- It is, it's amazing tohear you talk about that.
So what advice would yougive to other leaders
who are really lookingto spark such change
(42:36):
and then figure out a way to enable others
to go forth and drive change as well?
- My advice would be dowhat feels good to you.
It's grounded in reality, there's my path,
but what works for me couldbe completely different than
how someone else wants to lead.
(42:58):
And that's important, weshouldn't merge into one identity,
there's not one right way.
- Yeah, so, Li, you recently joined
the Warner Brothers Discovery Board,
so now you also have boardmember on your background too.
Tell me about that experienceand what that means for you
as a woman in the technology industry
and about your ability to leadnow through different ways?
- Yeah, I was definitely
(43:20):
not looking to join a board
in the sense that I havea full-time job as a CEO.
And as you know, most board members are,
in their late fifties, mid sixties,
they've had a whole career,
and honestly, I never felt that,
and I never considered thatI might be qualified to join
(43:43):
the Warner BrothersDiscovery Board, right.
It's a huge publicly traded company.
And I get a good number of questions
every week on LinkedIn onfrom people I don't know
of, Hey, how did you get on this board?
(44:05):
And that's created its own
kind of like interesting community for me.
One thing that has been odd
and slightly uncomfortablefor me to notice is that
in the past two years, only onewoman has reached out to me.
(44:30):
- Most of the people who haveare men is what you're saying?
- They're mostly men,
who are asking like,how do I get on a board?
And I think what I'vetaken from that is like,
oh wow, you believe you'requalified to join a board?
And it's about learning how to,
(44:53):
it's about learning how tohave the right conversations
or meet the right people.
And at the same time,
I've also had people, askme to speak on panels.
And it's the same question,how did you get on this board?
My self-reflection is that it has
(45:15):
something to do with mycareer and background.
And the fact that I am aperson who works in technology,
in marketing, in media, and international,
and those are the facets thatposition me to be qualified.
(45:37):
But the more important thing is that
there was a board seatthat had opened, right?
So Warner Discovery
emerged out of the AT&T transaction
and they were welcoming new board members.
(45:58):
So as we think about how women,
or how more diverse candidatesgo up for board seats
or become founders orjoin leadership teams,
it's really about first and foremost,
creating opportunities.
- Yeah, you have to havethat in the first place,
that's right.
- I'm a huge advocatefor setting term limits.
(46:21):
So today, you can be ona board for 30 years.
It's much more normal in other countries
to have seven or 10 year term limits.
It's not an age limit, it's a term limit.
And imagine if every seven years,
there were new board members,
how many people would have the opportunity
(46:43):
to raise their hand?
- Yep, and then we'dhave to do more searches
to find the right people for those.
And the networks would have to be bigger.
- Yes, exactly.
And then I think the secondpiece is, I got very lucky,
I was profiled in FastCompany and a recruiter saw,
this top 10 execs, tech execs piece.
But there are lots ofhighly qualified leaders
(47:06):
who are not being profiled by the press.
You could say like the presshas a perspective in this
and they could highlightdifferent candidates,
but I also think thatthere should be a database,
a place where people can gowhere it's not about networking
(47:26):
or going to the right dinners,where you can raise your hand
and say, here is my experience
and this is why I'm qualified.
And there's nothing foryou to feel afraid of
to be able to just join that community.
It's honestly shocking tome that this doesn't exist.
- So well, JP Morgan, wedo maintain a database
(47:47):
for people that we like to promote
and share with ourclients for board seats,
but it is a networking game.
So you have to be asked byclients to do that kind of thing,
they have to want to haveyour recommendations.
There are others whoare building this too.
But I think to your point, thoseseats have to be available.
But all the other things have to happen
before seats even open up.
You have to be on panels, youhave to be meeting people,
(48:09):
you have to be in articles,
you have to do so many otherthings kind of up the funnel
to get to that placement.
And so when we think abouttrying to improve that
and support that overall,it's all those activities
that you're describing that have to happen
and they have to happen together.
- What if the JP Morgandatabase were democratized?
How do we think about access to that?
(48:31):
I would love to work on that.
- Well, we should pull you in.
What you said about more men
reaching out to you aboutthe board than women
is so interesting, makes you wonder why,
whether women just lookat you and they say,
oh, that's so aspirational,I could never do that myself.
And men are thinking,just tell me how to do it
and I'm going to try it too.
(48:51):
Do you have a sense for that?
- In the past two years,
I've had the opportunityto speak at panels
and be invited to dinners.
And usually it's in some way, tied to
increasing diversity on boards
or I find myself being reallyattracted to organizations
(49:13):
that want to promote access for women.
When I'm at these dinnertables, it is shocking to me
that you'll be talking to,
the female CEO of a hugepharmaceuticals company
or CMO at a really successful business,
that's doing hundreds ofmillions of dollars a year.
(49:33):
And the tentativenessthe questions around,
what kind of programming orfurther education should I get
before even considering putting my name?
- The credential problem, Ineed to do something more.
(49:54):
- Yes, yes, and there's a whole weight
and burden of feeling like,well, I have my full-time job
and then I'm supposed toget these credentials,
so there's no way thatI would be considered.
And I would say, absolveyourself of this burden.
You are qualified
by the very nature of thejobs that you do every day.
(50:15):
And I think that many of theindustries and categories
where there are incrediblysuccessful female executives
are the ones that are becoming
more and more important for board roles.
It used to be that you would,
could only have a finance background.
Or there's so like 70% of the board
would have a financialservices background.
(50:35):
Marketing, design, technology, product,
these things that are moredeeply connected to your customer
and how to grow your customer base,
those things should be at the forefront.
You also have a populationin the United States
that is incredibly diverse,
and by 2040 the majoritywill be BiPOC and non-white.
(51:00):
How will your board andyour management team
meet that customer?
Are you prepared to do so?
So I hope these are the questions
that companies are asking themselves,
and I think it kind ofinevitably leads you to,
if you want to grow and be profitable,
that you should be making connectivity
between that customerbase and your management.
(51:23):
- Well Li, it's sogreat to speak with you,
to hear about what you're building
and how to really hear about
how you think aboutsystems and communities
and the future of social commerce.
So thank you so much for coming here
and speaking with us about this.
I wish you the best of luck.
- Thank you.
- Thank you for listeningto my conversation
(51:43):
with Li Haslet Chen.
I really loved this conversation today
and I learned so muchabout what Li is doing
to really bring inclusivevoices to the social platforms
and enabling them to reach more audiences
and get paid for it.
If you're enjoying our podcast,
please hit follow onyour favorite podcast app
and please share it with others.
I hope today that you learned something
(52:05):
that will help you to lead with purpose.
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