August 6, 2025 • 39 mins
Misty Copeland, the first Black woman Principal Dancer at American Ballet Theatre, has transformed her groundbreaking career into a platform for equity, access, and storytelling. In this episode of the Women on the Move podcast, with host Sam Saperstein, Misty shares how her experiences in ballet inspired the creation of the Misty Copeland Foundation. Through its BE BOLD program, she is nurturing community, leadership, and confidence in young people from underserved backgrounds. Her journey is a testament to the power of using your voice to create space for others and build lasting change.
Disclaimer: The speakers’ opinions belong to them and may differ from opinions of J.P. Morgan Chase & Co and its affiliates. Views presented on this podcast are those of the speakers; they are as of August 6, 2025 and they may not materialize.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
- I think that, you know,
the reason I really wantedto start the foundation
was to give young peoplethe space to be supported,
to be curious, to find joy.
But I think, ultimately,
it's about investing in who they are,
and who they will potentially be as people
in the world, in society.
(00:25):
- Welcome to the "Womenon the Move" podcast.
I'm your host, Sam Saperstein.
This season, we're delvinginto how strong communities
create opportunities, foster belonging,
and empower leaders tomake a lasting impact.
We'll hear from senior executives,
entrepreneurs, and change makers
who are redefining leadership
through ambition and innovation
(00:45):
and the values and communities
that have shaped their journeys.
In each episode,
our guests reflect on the life experiences
that influenced them early on,
the people and communitiesthat lifted them up,
and how they now use theirplatforms to empower others.
These leaders are committedto community, purpose,
and authenticity.
At the "Women on the Move" podcast,
Powered by JP Morgan Chase,
(01:07):
we believe purpose and communityaren't just nice to have,
they're essential.
We're spotlighting womenwho are changing industries,
creating space for others,
and showing what's possible
when we lead with integrityand bring others along.
We hope to provide you with a new lens
through which to consideryour own communities,
and inspire you to create communities
that foster success and drive change.
(01:29):
Thank you for joining us on this season
of the "Women on the Move" podcast.
Let's explore the powerof community together.
In this episode,
I'm thrilled to speak with Misty Copeland,
trailblazing ballerina, author,
and passionate advocatefor equity in the arts.
As the first black woman tobe named Principal Dancer
at American Ballet Theater,
Misty has redefined what itmeans to embody the lead role
(01:51):
on the world's most prestigious stages.
Beyond her artistry, shebuilt a powerful platform
dedicated to creatingaccess, representation,
and purpose-driven change.
Just before the recording of this podcast,
it was announced that Misty is retiring
from American BalletTheater after 25 years.
In this conversation,
(02:11):
Misty shares how her experiencesin the world of ballet
have shaped her mission
to build a broader community around ballet
by making the art form more accessible.
In the next stage of her career,
she'll no doubt continue to inspire
through action, innovation,and authenticity.
Misty, it is such a pleasure to have you
on our "Women on the Move" podcast.
(02:32):
Thank you so much for joining us.
- Thank you for having me.
- [Sam] So you recently announced
that you're retiring from ballet.
Congratulations.
- Thank you.
- It's a big chapter.
- [Misty] Yes.
- I'm wondering what yourreflections are right now
as you think about yourunbelievable career.
- You know, I feel like I've had
a lot of time to process this decision.
(02:52):
I would say I startedthinking about this in 2018.
- Wow.
- And then, you know,towards the end of 2019,
I felt like I was ready tokind of make that next move
and step away from classical dance.
I don't see this as a retirement,
(03:13):
in terms of me as a dancer,
but it's definitely a farewell
to my 25 years withAmerican Ballet Theater.
- Yeah.
- But in the last five years,
I really feel like
I've already steppedinto that next chapter.
I've been away from the stage,
my last performance withAmerican Ballet Theater
was in December of 2019.
So, you know,
I really feel like I'veprocessed so much in this time.
(03:36):
You know, I started my foundation,
I started a production company,
I had my son,
I wrote like, three or four books.
Like a lot's happened.- A lot.
- In the last five years.
But I feel like I have to kindof step back into that place,
because so many people whohave been supporters of mine
are now processing.
- The news.
- Yes, this news.
(03:57):
And so it's like, oh, right, yes,
okay, got to get myhead back in that space
where other people are,
when I'm, you know,
kind of getting floodedwith beautiful messages
and things like that,
and having to reflect again,I think, on my journey.
Which my husband was veryemotional with this announcement,
and I'm like, "You've beenhere with me this whole time
processing the last five years.
(04:18):
Why are you so emotional?"
But it's been a long,very fulfilling career
that I'm so proud of.
- [Sam] Yeah.
- And also just excited to kind of like,
make room and move over
for so many more dancers to come up.
- [Sam] And for otherthings in your life too.
- And for other things in my life, yes.
(04:39):
- I mean, it's interesting
you've spent so long processing it,
I think that's probably a gift.
And maybe the pandemic,
even though no one wasaware that was coming,
might have given you somespace for that, to step away.
- Yeah, you know, I think the pandemic,
as difficult as it was for the world,
and for the dance community,
I think so many dancershad a moment to breathe
(05:02):
for the first time in their careers.
There was a baby boom.
- Among dancers. Makes sense.
- It's so difficult forworking women in general,
you know, to find that window
and feel like now is the time.
But for dancers and for female athletes,
it's really difficult, you know?
And you have such a smallwindow to be in your prime,
(05:24):
you know, physically,
and so the pandemic was really a moment,
I think for so many dancers,
to kind of step back and reassesswhat it is they're doing.
'Cause you kind of get in this cycle.
- Yeah.
- And the moment you stepoff, you lose that momentum,
or you lose the opportunity,
or you lose the position.
And so it's reallydifficult for performers
to have a moment to reflectand really, I think, be present
(05:47):
and know what it is that they want to do,
like, you know, continuing moving forward.
- And how are you preparingto get back into it
to get on the stage again?
- Oh my goodness, it's been brutal.
You know?
You know, so many people have said,
"Oh, I thought taking this time off
would've been reallyhealing for your body."
(06:07):
It has not been.
- Oh, no.
Your body got used to one way.
- Oh my gosh.
I've stepped back in,
and my body's like,
you know, not thanking mefor taking the time off.
And so many of the injuries
that I've had throughout my career
have come back with a vengeance,
and like, more have come up.
I mean, I'm 42, steppingback into this space.
- Yes.
(06:28):
And, you know, I thinkit's also like beautiful,
I mean, yes, it's beendifficult and brutal,
and my body hurts, and I'vegot new and old injuries,
but it's so beautifulto step back into this.
Not the same body,
it's a new body.
- Yeah.
- And I think that I've donethat throughout my career.
I mean, you're constantlychanging and evolving,
and, you know, I'veswitched up my training
(06:52):
throughout my 25-year career
based on the changesthat happen naturally,
you know, as a human being.
And so that's like this head space I'm in,
is that this is my new dance body.
- Yes.
- And I have to adjustto what it's capable of,
and find where the strengthslie, and the weaknesses,
(07:13):
and kind of adjust and move from there.
But I think what's been the most special
is that my son can see me dance.
- That's a beautiful thing.
- [Misty] Right.
- That he can understand that at his age.
- He has no idea, really, what I do.
He's been in the studio with me,
and he's like stepping on my toes.
And I'm like, okay, thisisn't going to work today.
(07:34):
- Right?
We'll bring him back maybe tomorrow.
You are no stranger to injury,
you've obviously danced throughmany serious ones before.
I was struck by
how you danced throughtibia stress fractures,
I mean, just in 2012,
and were in so much pain doingthat, but refused to stop.
What was that moment like for you,
(07:55):
and what was going through your mind
when you're dancing in so much pain,
but wanting to go on, giventhe enormity of the moment?
- There are so few opportunities.
In dance, in a company likeAmerican Ballet Theater,
when you're at the top of your field,
and the company is filled with, you know,
(08:16):
nearly 100 of the greatestdancers in the world,
and so, you know,
the opportunity to actuallybe given a principal role,
which I was given in 2012,
you know, to do the lead in The Firebird
when, you know, I hadbeen in the company for,
I think it was maybe 12 years,
and had never been given that opportunity.
(08:37):
And so, at that late age,
it was a risk they were taking on me,
and I had to prove myself.
And I knew
that if I didn't take thatopportunity to the fullest,
that I would never be given it again.
So when I started feelingthat pain in my shin,
I didn't tell anyone in the company,
because I knew they would say,
(08:57):
"Well, we don't want you to break,
so you're going to have tostep out of rehearsals."
And then I knew I wouldnever get on stage.
And I understood the significance
of being given that opportunity,
and that it was so much deeperand so much bigger than me
to be the first black womanto perform that role at ABT.
- Yes.
- And to possibly thenbe on this trajectory
to be promoted to Principal Dancer.
(09:19):
So I did everything I could
in terms of taking care of my body,
with people outside of thecompany, paying out of pocket.
I mean, you know,
it was a commitment.
But again, I knew that I hadto make it to that performance.
I ended up doing, I think aperformance or two in California
before I made my NewYork debut in the role,
(09:43):
and then I only performed it once
before my doctor said it's time.
- You really need time out.
Such an impossible choice.
- But what it meant, you know,
there was so much work that was done
with me and my manager,Gilda Squire, at the time,
a black woman who understoodthe journey that I was on,
and the commitment,
(10:05):
and, you know, what we wanted to do
for the black and brown community.
And so we were there,
you know, I was speakingat public schools,
and I was in Brooklyn, I was in Queens,
and I was in all of these places,
really showing them,like, this could be you.
- Yes.
- Whatever it is you choose to do,
you know, I come from this.
And just for them to see themselves in me.
And so we did so much workin really like, grassroots.
(10:30):
So by the time the performance came,
and, you know, I saw thisimage of myself as The Firebird
hanging over the MetropolitanOpera House at Lincoln Center,
to see this,
I just remember bawling my eyes out,
because it was like, I saw a black woman,
with like, boobs and a butt,
and just arched in the wind.
And I was like, "Yes!"
Like, this means so much to, you know,
(10:52):
so many people that walkpast Lincoln Center daily
and don't feel like theysee themselves reflected,
and don't feel like theycan be in that space.
And so, you know, on that night,
to see the audience, a sold out show,
with young and old, and black and brown,
it was the first time that we saw that,
and so it was worth it.
I didn't feel the painwhen I was on stage,
(11:14):
because, you know, the adrenaline,
and I remember, just theaudience was so loud,
I couldn't even hear the orchestra.
- Wow.
- And it was like a party.
And so it was like,
it does not matter whatI do on stage tonight.
- [Sam] The fact that you were there.
- Yeah. The fact I was there.
And I don't think it wasa very good performance,
but it was like,
what it meant to get thosepeople in that community
(11:35):
in the room.
Yeah.
- I can sort of feel that power
in the way you describe it,
and just can imagine the momentwhere you made that decision
and no matter the pain.
And thankfully it didn't havesuch long-term consequences
that you couldn't dance after that.
But that was a big trade off to make.
- Yes.
- Oh my goodness.
So you stepped into ballet atthe relatively old age of 13.
(11:57):
Unbelievable.
And you'd said, "I've needed to dance.
I didn't need the otherstuff that comes with it."
But that dance itself, themovement was so powerful to you
at that particular time.
Can you just tell our audience why?
You know, why dance,and ballet particularly,
'cause you were also doinggymnastics before that,
why that movement, andstructure, and discipline
(12:18):
was so important to you.
- Well, I had never done anything before,
I mean, I wasn't doing gymnastics,
I had taught myself things.
And like, I'd never taken anyformal lessons of any kind,
I wasn't involved in sports,
I'd never taken a dance class or anything.
But I remember fallingin love with gymnastics
from watching the Olympics,
(12:38):
and I remember therewas this Lifetime movie
on the gymnast, Nadia Comaneci.
- A legend.- And I was like,
just so in awe of the commitment,
and to see someone so young
and so passionate about something,
and it was like, I've neverexperienced that in my life,
like, I wonder what that feels like.
And so I ended up just like,
(13:00):
you know, in my mind, I think that like,
the floor exercises in gymnastics,
that was the closest thing I'dever seen to classical dance,
and I think that's why I was drawn to it.
This kind of more lyrical movement
when they were dancing in between,
you know, doing the tricks, the flips,
and the pirouettes and everything.
And so I started to teach myself,
(13:20):
like to do back bend walkovers,
and to do the splits.
And so that was like theextent of my experience.
But I think, you know, Iwas craving a discipline,
I was craving structure,
I was craving joy and beauty,
and some kind of escape in my life.
I grew up in really underprivileged,
(13:41):
you know, situations and communities,
and my mom was a single parent
raising six children on her own.
And we were constantly moving,
you know, not often knowingwhere we were going to end up
from day to day.
And so, so much of myexistence felt like a secret.
And this kind of shameful secret,
(14:02):
that I didn't want people to know
that we were in and out of motels,
and pretty much houseless.
And so I just distancedmyself from everyone,
I was very introverted and very shy.
I mean, I would spendrecess or lunch breaks,
like, wandering around theschool, or in the bathroom,
or in the library with teachers,
where I just felt more comfortable.
(14:23):
- Yeah.
- And so when I kind of foundthis passion for movement,
whenever there was musicplaying around the house,
or seeing, you know,
my mother was a professional cheerleader
for the Kansas City Chiefs football team,
and so she was dancing aroundthe house here and there.
And so that, I was drawnto the joy that I felt,
(14:44):
and this expression that I'dnever been able to experience.
And, you know, I barely spoke,
so I was writing, I was journaling,
and then I was moving,
and those were my forms of expression.
So by the time I was 12and a half, turning 13,
I decided to audition for the dance team.
And that was really my introduction to it,
to movement and to dance.
(15:04):
And I say it often,
but it saved my life in so many ways.
Even if it was just this kindof internal feeling of hope,
and some sense ofresponsibility for myself.
But there's so many incredibleattributes that, you know,
being a part of a discipline,being a part of an art form,
(15:27):
being part of a sport cando for a young person.
I think something assimple as having a space
that I could consistently go to every day
and know what to expect,
which, my life,
you know, I never knewwhat was going to happen,
and I had no controlover anything in my life.
And so to know that Icould come into a studio,
(15:47):
and it was very safe and quiet,
and I was responsible for my own body.
- Yes.
- That was incredible.
And I think it's I think the opposite,
with a lot of children.
I'm not going to say all,
because so many people find beauty
in the structure of danceand ballet in particular,
but I think a lot ofpeople come into dance,
and they feel that you get kind of,
(16:09):
you're tensed up becausethere's this need to be perfect,
and kind of this strictidea of how it's taught,
that's not always very nurturing.
And I was fortunate tobe in an environment
that was very nurturing,
where I could fully just fallin love with the art form.
And again, that structure and discipline.
(16:29):
- That's incredible.
So many things lined up foryou at their precise moment,
I think including the people in your life
who were helping you through.
When you think back on somerole models or supporters,
and what they did to youand, and did for you,
and meant to you at the time,
you know, can you think of one or two
who just really were thereat the right time for you?
- I have way too many to name here.
(16:51):
There's way more than, like, five.
But I mean, of course,Elizabeth Cantine, I would say,
was one of the first.
She was a teacher at my middle school,
she was teaching, I thinklike history and English,
and she ended up takingover the drill team
as like, the coach.
She had danced her whole life,
but then was also, you know,teaching at a public school.
(17:13):
And she's the one who mademe captain of the team,
and I had no dance experience.
I mean, I decided to audition for captain,
but I was shocked when sheactually made me captain.
- [Sam] That is great.
- When I'm going upagainst all of these girls
who've, you know, been in dance classes,
and, you know, all of this experience.
But she saw something in me,
beyond, you know, being in the drill team.
(17:34):
I think within the first week, she said,
"You've got a lot of potential,
I want to introduce youto a ballet teacher."
And that was when I wasintroduced to Cynthia Bradley,
who was my first ballet teacher.
And both of these women
are still very much a part of my life.
I was texting with Cindy today,
and she's always so emotional,
just about everythingthat's happening in my life.
(17:55):
And, you know, such a criticaldecision that was made,
like for her to see the talent,
but not just see it and say,
"I'll teach her, and ifsomething happens, it happens,"
but to fully invest in me, and nurture me,
and give me opportunity.
I mean, she moved me inwith her and her family,
and she just, I mean,she was newly married,
she had a 3-year-old son,
(18:16):
and she invited me to come live with her,
because she knew that,had she not done that,
there's no way I would've lasted.
- Yeah.
- That was not the focus for my mother,
she had other children
that she needed to keepfood on the table for,
she had two jobs.
You know, there were so many other things
that were priority.
- [Sam] Wow.
- And so those two women, I think,
(18:37):
have have been huge impacts in my life.
And also set up the way
that I look at the necessityof mentorship in my life.
- Yes.
- They set the standards high.
Victoria Rowell came intomy life at a young age,
she was a television actress,
she's a producer-director now,
(18:58):
and just, she danced,
she was with American Ballet Theater
in their junior company,
and she's biracial like I am.
And just to see someone
and talk to someone who looks like you,
and who's had similar experiences,
did so much for me.
You know, I think I was like19 or 20 when I met her.
And then the mentors just kept coming.
I mean, Prince was ahuge mentor in my life
(19:22):
in my mid-late twenties.
Susan Fales-Hill,
who sits on the board ofAmerican Ballet Theater,
she's a writer-producer as well.
But I've been so fortunateto have incredible people
that have come into my life
and seen the possibilities with me,
and really nurtured me.
And so I understand the purpose,
(19:42):
like, you know, of havingthose relationships,
but also to be a mentormyself at this point,
like the purpose of that.
- So we have so many otherthings we can talk about
with your dancing career,
but since you're enteringthis next chapter,
and you have a foundation now,
and I want to keep onthis notion of mentoring
and really supporting other people,
your Be Bold Foundation isreally designed to do that.
(20:06):
And I would just love foryou to just pause and say,
why was it so important foryou to set this foundation,
which is about dance and movements,
given all the people who helped you
and saw this potential in you,
what do you hope it does
for potential in otherchildren that you come across?
- I think, you know,
the reason I really wantedto start the foundation
was to give young peoplethis space to be supported,
(20:30):
to grow, to be curious, to find joy.
But I think, ultimately,
it's about investing in who they are,
and who they will potentially be as people
in the world and in society.
I think that's something thatI'm thinking about a lot,
especially in this political climate,
you know, how are we creating leaders?
(20:52):
How are we giving them the tools
to reach their fullest potential,
no matter where they come from?
And I feel wholeheartedly
that that's what ballet did for me.
You know, beyond the accolades,
and my career at American Ballet Theater,
and what I've accomplished,
the person that I've becomefrom that 13-year-old girl
is mind-blowing, thegrowth that's happened.
(21:14):
And so I know that beingexposed to a discipline
and an art form
is what made me that person.
And so in creating theMisty Copeland Foundation,
and our signature program being Be Bold,
Be Bold stands for
Ballet Explorations, BalletOffers Leadership Development.
So this is not about creating a pipeline
into a professional school
(21:35):
to potentially becomea professional dancer,
like that would be amazing,
and, you know, we want to set them up
and give them great training and technique
if that's the path they want to take,
but it's really, again,
about exposing them to this opportunity,
live music, incredible teachingartists who look like them,
who a lot of them comefrom their communities
that they're in.
(21:55):
So we're teaching, it's afree afterschool ballet class,
and it's in the Bronx and in Harlem.
We would love to growand become, you know,
more national and international,that would be fantastic,
but right now,
we're really focused on thesecommunities that need the arts
and that need afterschool programming
for these children.
So it's like a lifelong dream of mine.
(22:15):
I never thought I wouldfind the fulfillment
that I have had my whole career
that I have on stage andperforming and in the studio.
And I have that by doing this work,
it's incredible.
- I love that.
I mean, I'm very struck by the combination
of dance and music,
and how you talk aboutthat being very integrated.
But I love what the program emphasizes,
(22:35):
so, these traits,
leadership, curiosity,kindness, persistence,
and then of course,appreciation of dance and music.
When you have children in this program,
what do you hope they take away from it,
given your focus on those values?
- It's so hard to say whatI hope they would take away,
because, yeah, I had hopes
(22:56):
for what this program would look like,
and that, you know, theywould come away poised,
and have more of an interest in it,
and to see it go far beyondthose things already,
it's only been three years
since the program's been up and running,
and to see young people comeaway with different interests
that you wouldn't even imagine,
like more in reading,
(23:16):
like just expanding their minds
in how this kind of translates
into other areas of their life.
But even just as you know,
this escape from whatevertheir lives may be,
building community, thefriendships that they're building,
(23:36):
and we really push themto use their voices,
because that's somethingthat's not often a part
of the classical ballet experience.
Usually it's like, youdon't have an opinion,
you don't use your words,
you know, you're told what to do.
And so, to me, it's so counterintuitive
as to like what is expected of you
(23:58):
when you're supposed to bean artist, and go on stage.
And so it's like,
well, how and when areyou building that artistry
if everything's kind of being pushed down?
And so we really encourage theyoung people in the classroom
to voice their feelings and experience,
(24:18):
and that it's really afull body experience.
- I love that.
You were not shy in using your voice too
at times when you felt thatyou were part of institutions
that did not see people of color,
dancers of color, didn'tmake space for them.
Did you have to getyourself to a certain point
to feel bold and confident to do that?
(24:40):
And if so, what was thatpoint where you thought,
"I know who I am now,
I've proven who I can be,
I know I have all the intrinsics,
it's now time for me to use that voice."
- You know, I think it's somethingthat's always been in me.
And I really credit my mother for this.
I've had so many conversations,
just like now that I'mraising, you know, a son,
(25:00):
and he's black, and in thisworld, and what that means.
And, you know,
I feel good about the waymy mother kind of set us up.
Maybe there was somefear in there with it.
But you know, I remember being very young,
and her saying like,
"Yes, you guys are biracial.
But as soon as you step out of this house,
(25:21):
and especially in like theareas that you're growing up,
you're going to be seen as black,
and you're going to be treated
as black people in this world,
and to be prepared for that."
And I think that having that mindset,
it was such a big partof my identity that,
coming into the ballet world,
and being the only,
(25:42):
it was such a part of me thatneeded to be acknowledged,
and I needed to voice my experiences
of being the only, and what that meant.
And so I think, for me,
it was really about,
how do I navigate usingmy voice and expressing?
That took time.
But not the feeling that I had,
like that I was goingto speak at some point.
(26:05):
It was just a matter of,"How do I go about this?"
And I think that my personality,
I've always been someone tokind of sit back and observe,
and learn how, you know, situations work,
or people's personalities,before I take that leap.
- Yeah.
- And of course, havingmentors in my life as well,
that I was having theseconversations with,
(26:26):
and they were preparing me.
- That's incredible.
- To have the conversations.
But they really started, you know,
behind the walls ofAmerican Ballet Theater.
These weren't public conversationsI was having, you know?
I was having conversations early on
with the artistic directorof ABT at the time,
and even my colleagues.
And then I think, you know,
it just naturally,
(26:48):
when I was kind of put outthere more in the public,
it was a natural part ofwhat I needed to talk about,
because those were my experiences.
- Yeah. I mean, it's incredible.
You would talk to the choreographers
about movement for certainbodies, or costumes,
or how you'd powder your face.
I mean, there's so many waysthat I don't think many people,
(27:09):
unless you're living it,
realize that this comesout in so many ways.
Did you have to pickcertain areas to focus on?
Did you just take likeany opportunity you could
at a certain point to kindof raise your concerns?
- It was a combination.A combination of things.
- Yeah, yeah.
- I mean, I guess for the most part,
it was probably casting.
Those were really like,thought out conversations,
(27:30):
you know, that I was thinking about
in approaching the company.
I didn't want to come from this place
of anger, being defensive.
And I'd had the opportunityof watching so many black men,
not women, because I was theonly black woman in the company
for the first 10 years of my career,
(27:51):
but black men that had come and gone,
and watched how they were navigating.
And a lot of it was like,
"I'm not going to do that."
- Wow.
- But it's reallydifficult to be the only,
or one of the only,
and a lot of those emotionscan come out in anger,
or come out just over-emotional.
And you know, I learned a lot
(28:12):
from watching how other people responded,
and so I wanted to make sure
that I had kind of gotten all of that out
before I stepped into a room with,
you know, I mean, I waslike 21, 22 years old.
- Very young.
- Yeah, very young,
with like, no life experience really,
and coming in and trying to have
these really difficult conversations.
(28:34):
But, you know, so I washaving those conversations,
and just saying like,this is my experience,
and I feel like I'm not being cast
because there's never been ablack woman to do this role,
and maybe you see black womenonly in this narrow way.
And I think, you know, I can do this role.
Or what is it that I need to do to prepare
to be able to be seen,
(28:54):
you know, this role asa possibility for me.
But when it comes to, you know,
some of them were like you said,
it was kind of like,this is just the time,
this is what's happening,I'm going to say something.
- Yeah.
- When it came to a lot of themakeup and things like that,
that it just kind of happenedorganically when I was,
you know, being told tocolor my skin a lighter color
(29:16):
so that I could blend in
with the rest of the girlsin the court of ballet.
- Wow.
- That it was like more of an immediate,
like, I have to say somethingnow, in this moment.
- Did you feel that anyof those conversations
changed minds then and there,
whether it was thefolks who were staffing,
or your dancing colleagues, other dancers?
- Oh yeah, absolutely.
(29:36):
- [Sam] I mean, what'dpeople say to you afterwards?
Or over the years?
Do they thank you forhaving those conversations?
- I mostly have gotten thank yous
from people that havethe same experiences,
more so than, you know,
people that it was kind oflike an education for them.
I mean, I rememberhaving the conversations
with some of the makeup artists
who had been doing makeup in the company
(29:58):
for like 30, 40 years,
and just saying like,
"Well, why does it have to be this way?"
And then them saying,
"It doesn't. Okay, let'sdo something else."
And I'm like, "What? It was that easy?"
- That's all it took.- Right.
What?
I mean, I'm sure that, you know,
there are other roles
that maybe they wouldn'thave been so flexible on,
(30:18):
but I mean, I voiced what I was thinking,
and like, well, why can't wedo this color or this way?
Like, why does it haveto be done this way?
And then to have it be soeasily like, kind of dismissed,
I was like, oh, I'mgoing to keep doing that.
- Exactly. Exactly.
- I'm going to keep speakingup and using my voice.
But when it comes to my colleagues,
you know, I thinksomething that I often say
(30:41):
to a lot of the young blackand brown kids that I speak to
is that, you know,
we have so much more in common
with people who are different from us.
And I think that it's importantto kind of build this base.
Like, for me,
my colleagues got to know me,
I mean, we're like a family.
Again, I've been in thecompany for 25 years.
- Yes.
(31:01):
- You grow up with these people,
you travel the world with them.
And so people got to know me,
you know, oh, you're Misty,
I don't see you as like,
the only black woman in the company,
or whatever it was.
So I think it was like alittle easier for me to have
some difficult conversations with them
when I'd built realrelationships and friendships
with people.
(31:21):
And had to like, checkpeople a lot, you know?
And they would say things
that they didn't recognizeor see as hurtful, or racist,
or whatever it might be,
and I'd have to call them out.
And I'm like, it's comingfrom a place of love,
but like, this is not okay.
And then like them kind of saying,
"Oh, I didn't realize that."
But I feel so grateful
for all the relationships that I built,
(31:42):
and being able to have thoseuncomfortable conversations,
and have it be not as,
these are conversationsthat are easier to have now,
nowadays, that were not 10, 15 years ago,
and I'm grateful for that.
- It's really a tribute toyour willingness to do that.
And you're put in asituation where, as the only,
maybe not given a choice,
(32:03):
so it's a testament to you.
You know, where you are givena choice is to tell stories.
And so, as an author,
a very prolific author,
you've really chosen to usethat part of your platform,
I think in such a beautiful way
for children, for adults.
I want to talk about some ofthe things you've written.
So, "Firebird,"
you wrote almost like aletter to your younger self,
(32:25):
which I guess I can really see you wishing
you had something likethat when you were younger.
- Yeah.
- So talk about the response to that book,
and how you think other dancers coming up
kind of perceived it,
you know, your experiencesnow, what that meant them.
- You know, the idea for "Firebird"
really came out of my relationshipwith one of my mentors,
(32:46):
Raven Wilkinson,
Christopher Myers, whoI wrote the book with,
and he did, you know, thebeautiful illustrations.
I met him, and he was like,
"I want to come up withthis concept together,
so I just want to like, followyou around in your life."
I was like, "Okay."
I'd never written a book before.
I was like, Is this howit goes? I don't know."
So he would watch rehearsals,
(33:08):
he came to a performance,
and then he'd go, he's like,
"Well, what are you doing today?"
I was like, "Oh, I'm havinglunch with one of my friends.
She's a mentor of mine, andshe used to be a ballerina,
in the fifties she was onlyblack woman in her company,
like back then."
And he was like, "Oh, can I come?"
And I was like, "Okay."
And so he saw thisrelationship, and he was like,
"This is it."
- Oh my goodness.
- "The power in having someone with like,
(33:30):
generations between you,
and that you're like speakingthis beautiful language,
like the same language together,
and you're supporting each other."
And so that was where thestory really developed from,
like, the importance of havingthat type of relationship,
and what it can do for a young person,
when you're having doubtsand feeling insecure,
you don't maybe see peopleimmediately around you
(33:52):
who look like you.
And so that book has justcontinued to like pay it forward
with so many generations.
And it's really incredible,
you know, after the career that I've had,
to meet young people whodon't know me as a performer
'cause they've neverseen me dance on stage.
- Only as an author.
(34:13):
- [Misty] But as an author.
- It's great.
It's a whole other identity,
which you can certainly lean into now
in your second chapter even more.
But isn't that fascinating?
You know, you obviously have come up,
and dancing was everything.
- Yeah.- So I love that.
That's amazing.
You've also written aboutother trailblazing women,
"Black Ballerinas," as another book.
And talk to me about theprocess of doing that.
(34:33):
You were learning,
and finding otherinformation about dancers
that just wasn't really outthere in the public eye.
- It was so important for meto write a book like this.
You know, I've said so often that,
you open up a ballet history book
and you do not see faces like mine.
You don't see our storiesdocumented in those books,
and so I've always felt like
(34:54):
I want to start writing our history books
and kind of going backand telling the stories
of those who don't get their due,
because their stories aren't out there.
- Yeah.
- And I knew that these weren'tstories I could just Google
and learn about these people,
so it was a lot of word of mouth,
and just like reachingout to certain people,
and like hearing stories from them.
(35:15):
And that kind of helped me to shape,
you know, what the book would look like.
I mean, it was really difficultto choose, I think 27,
I think we chose 27, maybe,dancers in that book,
and it was so hard to just choose that.
- I'm glad there's more and more.
- [Misty] There's many more.
- But to find oral histories,
and that being so importantto the story, is amazing.
(35:36):
I think it's almost a lost art now, right?
Because we can Google everythingright and find information.
- Right.
- But those storiesmust have been so rich.
- Incredible.
I mean, and that's one of the things
I love about ballet as well,
is that so much of it is oral history
that's passed down from dancer to dancer
when you're learning ballets.
(35:57):
We have like dance notationthat's rarely used,
but other than, like that,
it's really just documented
from choreography that's passed on,
it's literally from person to person.
And so it felt so fitting for this book
that that's how I wouldbe receiving this history.
- Almost to another dancer down the road
(36:17):
that you're going to convey that too.
I think that's really beautiful.
And "Bunheads,"
so this is book for children,
and your second one willcome out in the Fall,
what did you want to showyounger children about
when it came to this book?
- It was really about showingthe beauty in community.
You know, when you commit to something,
whatever it is,extracurricular, sport, or art,
(36:41):
it's really based onme, as a young dancer,
like coming into a studio withjust these misfit characters
that come from different cultures,
and different life experiences,
and have different body types,
and they're all different ages.
And so it's just this likemotley crew of ballet dancers.
(37:04):
And they're all, like,
they're actual people that I grew up with,
and like the little girl, Cat,
in the second book that's coming out,
will be really based on her experience.
But it's giving youngpeople an opportunity
to see themselves through allof these different characters.
And I wanted to valuetheir different culture,
(37:25):
so we celebrate Catalina being Mexican,
and you get to see likethe home she grew up in,
and then how she's takingbits of her culture
and applying it to the character of Kitri
in the Spanish ballet, Don Quixote.
So you get to learn about,
kind of dive into a differentballet with each book,
so this is a series.
And the first one, Misty,
(37:46):
little Misty, was the star of that book,
and the ballet, Coppelia,
and then the second bookwill be Cat, Catalina.
We'll have the differentcharacters in each book
that you'll be able to learnabout in a different ballet.
- I think right now, it'smore important than ever
to have these stories out there.
You know, it has been,
I think more challengingin this environment
to appreciate people's differences,
(38:06):
and to make sure everybodystill feels heard
and valued for that.
And I think the way to get through it
is to keep having folkslike you use your platform,
keep showing people it's okay,
show that perseverance,
and build that community.
So whether it's through storytelling,
your foundation,
(38:27):
or any of your new pursuits,it really comes through,
and I think it is vital right now.
- Yes, it is.
- [Sam] So, thank you for doing that.
- Thank you so much for saying that.
You're absolutely right.
I mean, it's so, I think, critical,
even more now,
that I'm doing this workthrough my foundation
and continuing to giveblack and brown children,
(38:50):
immigrant children, you know,
a space to feel safe, and to feel seen,
and to be able to feellike they're still living.
And that's what the art formhas done for me my whole life.
- When I think of all theMisty Copelands out there
that we have yet to discover,that's the motivator,
so I just want to say thank you for that.
So as you wrap up this currentstage, your dancing stage,
(39:13):
what do you plan to do next?
What are the next stageswe will see you on?
What will you be doing?
- I like that you use that word, stages,
because there will be manymore stages that I will be on,
and like, entering into different stages,
and, you know, continuetraveling, and speaking,
and writing books,
and you know, my workthrough the foundation
and the production company.
(39:34):
But it's all with the samegoal in mind, you know?
It's really to bring dance toas many people as possible,
to show the diversity in it,
and the importance of seeingdifferent types of people,
and that everyone should be able
to be a part of this experience.
I would love to continuedancing in some capacity.
It won't be a full length ballet,
it won't be Swan Lake again,
(39:55):
I don't think I'll everdo that ballet again.
But to be on stage and moving,
whether I'm producing a show,
or something more geared towards Broadway,
I'm very open to what's to come,
I try not to plan too much.
- Which is funny toactually hear you say that,
given you had to be sodisciplined in planning.
(40:17):
- I know.
I think that when it comes to, for me,
like what I've done outsideof classical ballet,
it's really felt like natural and organic,
and spoke to like what I wasfeeling in those moments.
- Yeah.
- You know, my work with Prince,
I remember it being really,
feeling like his audience,
(40:39):
it would be amazing to beable to show this audience
that maybe doesn't haveinterest in this art form,
or maybe they've neverseen classical ballet,
but how can we expose as manypeople as possible to it?
So I think in situations like that,
that feel natural and organic,
I will step into.
- I'm curious,
now that you don't have tohave the same rigid structure,
(41:00):
how do your days flow?
- I have to have structure,
I think that's what drew me to ballet.
But it's definitely,
I still am structured,
ballet taught me structure.
- Yeah.
- But I definitely have allowed myself
to kind of not be as rigid.
I literally was having theconversation this morning
with my husband,
(41:21):
you know, I dove back into training,
and my body's like, "What areyou doing? This is too much."
And so it's kind of likeI have to step back,
and I can't step into things
the way that I've donethem my whole career.
I'm in a different body, Ihave different priorities,
and I want to enjoy this time.
I don't want to feel like,
"Oh, just because I'mback in training mode,
I have to be like sad,and focused, and hurt."
(41:43):
Right?
- No, none those things.
- [Misty] That it canbe a joyful experience.
- Do you let yourself think about,
when you go back and perform,
how are you going to feel?
Do you imagine yourselfthere on the stage again?
- I do. I do.
And, you know, so many people are like,
"Oh, you're going to be soemotional," and all of these things.
But I just think I'm going to have fun.
I don't really havelike, big expectations.
(42:06):
I just want to enjoymyself and not get hurt.
- Yes, fair enough.
- That's the number one goal.
- So if you were to sayone thing to our listeners,
as a legacy, and what youwant your legacy to be,
what do you think that is?
- Oh, my goodness.
I mean, I feel like so much
of what I want to leave people with is,
you know, the beauty and thepower of dance and movement,
(42:28):
and the importance ofhaving that in our lives
no matter what age youare, where you come from.
But I think also theimportance of storytelling,
so much of what we've been talking about,
the importance of carrying on the stories
of people from the past,
and not diminishing the value of people
(42:48):
once you reach a certain age,
that they're even more valuable.
- Yes. The wisdom.
- The wisdom, the lifeexperiences, all they have to give.
That has been such animportant part of my journey,
and I hope that that'swhat I leave behind,
you know, the importance of legacy
and lifting up others, and community.
(43:08):
- Well, Misty, when Ithink about your legacy,
I think about courage,perseverance, strength,
just beauty and unbelievable grace.
So thank you so much for speaking with us,
and we wish you the bestin your next chapter,
dancing and otherwise, so.
- Thank you so much.
- Thank you.
(43:33):
Thank you for listening to my conversation
with Misty Copeland.
What Misty has built goesfar beyond the stage,
it's a movement grounded inpurpose, courage, and change.
Her work shows us what's possible
when we commit to being bothexcellent and inclusive.
I hope my conversation with Missy
inspires you to use your voice
and create opportunities forothers along your chosen path.
(43:56):
If you enjoyed this podcast,don't forget to like, share,
and subscribe to it on yourfavorite podcast platform.
- I think that, you know,
the reason I really wantedto start the foundation
was to give young peoplethe space to be supported,
to be curious, to find joy.
But I think, ultimately,
it's about investing in who they are,
and who they will potentially be as people
in the world, in society.
(00:25):
- Welcome to the "Womenon the Move" podcast.
I'm your host, Sam Saperstein.
This season, we're delvinginto how strong communities
create opportunities, foster belonging,
and empower leaders tomake a lasting impact.
We'll hear from senior executives,
entrepreneurs, and change makers
who are redefining leadership
through ambition and innovation
(00:45):
and the values and communities
that have shaped their journeys.
In each episode,
our guests reflect on the life experiences
that influenced them early on,
the people and communitiesthat lifted them up,
and how they now use theirplatforms to empower others.
These leaders are committedto community, purpose,
and authenticity.
At the "Women on the Move" podcast,
Powered by JP Morgan Chase,
(01:07):
we believe purpose and communityaren't just nice to have,
they're essential.
We're spotlighting womenwho are changing industries,
creating space for others,
and showing what's possible
when we lead with integrityand bring others along.
We hope to provide you with a new lens
through which to consideryour own communities,
and inspire you to create communities
that foster success and drive change.
(01:29):
Thank you for joining us on this season
of the "Women on the Move" podcast.
Let's explore the powerof community together.
In this episode,
I'm thrilled to speak with Misty Copeland,
trailblazing ballerina, author,
and passionate advocatefor equity in the arts.
As the first black woman tobe named Principal Dancer
at American Ballet Theater,
Misty has redefined what itmeans to embody the lead role
(01:51):
on the world's most prestigious stages.
Beyond her artistry, shebuilt a powerful platform
dedicated to creatingaccess, representation,
and purpose-driven change.
Just before the recording of this podcast,
it was announced that Misty is retiring
from American BalletTheater after 25 years.
In this conversation,
(02:11):
Misty shares how her experiencesin the world of ballet
have shaped her mission
to build a broader community around ballet
by making the art form more accessible.
In the next stage of her career,
she'll no doubt continue to inspire
through action, innovation,and authenticity.
Misty, it is such a pleasure to have you
on our "Women on the Move" podcast.
(02:32):
Thank you so much for joining us.
- Thank you for having me.
- [Sam] So you recently announced
that you're retiring from ballet.
Congratulations.
- Thank you.
- It's a big chapter.
- [Misty] Yes.
- I'm wondering what yourreflections are right now
as you think about yourunbelievable career.
- You know, I feel like I've had
a lot of time to process this decision.
(02:52):
I would say I startedthinking about this in 2018.
- Wow.
- And then, you know,towards the end of 2019,
I felt like I was ready tokind of make that next move
and step away from classical dance.
I don't see this as a retirement,
(03:13):
in terms of me as a dancer,
but it's definitely a farewell
to my 25 years withAmerican Ballet Theater.
- Yeah.
- But in the last five years,
I really feel like
I've already steppedinto that next chapter.
I've been away from the stage,
my last performance withAmerican Ballet Theater
was in December of 2019.
So, you know,
I really feel like I'veprocessed so much in this time.
(03:36):
You know, I started my foundation,
I started a production company,
I had my son,
I wrote like, three or four books.
Like a lot's happened.- A lot.
- In the last five years.
But I feel like I have to kindof step back into that place,
because so many people whohave been supporters of mine
are now processing.
- The news.
- Yes, this news.
(03:57):
And so it's like, oh, right, yes,
okay, got to get myhead back in that space
where other people are,
when I'm, you know,
kind of getting floodedwith beautiful messages
and things like that,
and having to reflect again,I think, on my journey.
Which my husband was veryemotional with this announcement,
and I'm like, "You've beenhere with me this whole time
processing the last five years.
(04:18):
Why are you so emotional?"
But it's been a long,very fulfilling career
that I'm so proud of.
- [Sam] Yeah.
- And also just excited to kind of like,
make room and move over
for so many more dancers to come up.
- [Sam] And for otherthings in your life too.
- And for other things in my life, yes.
(04:39):
- I mean, it's interesting
you've spent so long processing it,
I think that's probably a gift.
And maybe the pandemic,
even though no one wasaware that was coming,
might have given you somespace for that, to step away.
- Yeah, you know, I think the pandemic,
as difficult as it was for the world,
and for the dance community,
I think so many dancershad a moment to breathe
(05:02):
for the first time in their careers.
There was a baby boom.
- Among dancers. Makes sense.
- It's so difficult forworking women in general,
you know, to find that window
and feel like now is the time.
But for dancers and for female athletes,
it's really difficult, you know?
And you have such a smallwindow to be in your prime,
(05:24):
you know, physically,
and so the pandemic was really a moment,
I think for so many dancers,
to kind of step back and reassesswhat it is they're doing.
'Cause you kind of get in this cycle.
- Yeah.
- And the moment you stepoff, you lose that momentum,
or you lose the opportunity,
or you lose the position.
And so it's reallydifficult for performers
to have a moment to reflectand really, I think, be present
(05:47):
and know what it is that they want to do,
like, you know, continuing moving forward.
- And how are you preparingto get back into it
to get on the stage again?
- Oh my goodness, it's been brutal.
You know?
You know, so many people have said,
"Oh, I thought taking this time off
would've been reallyhealing for your body."
(06:07):
It has not been.
- Oh, no.
Your body got used to one way.
- Oh my gosh.
I've stepped back in,
and my body's like,
you know, not thanking mefor taking the time off.
And so many of the injuries
that I've had throughout my career
have come back with a vengeance,
and like, more have come up.
I mean, I'm 42, steppingback into this space.
- Yes.
(06:28):
And, you know, I thinkit's also like beautiful,
I mean, yes, it's beendifficult and brutal,
and my body hurts, and I'vegot new and old injuries,
but it's so beautifulto step back into this.
Not the same body,
it's a new body.
- Yeah.
- And I think that I've donethat throughout my career.
I mean, you're constantlychanging and evolving,
and, you know, I'veswitched up my training
(06:52):
throughout my 25-year career
based on the changesthat happen naturally,
you know, as a human being.
And so that's like this head space I'm in,
is that this is my new dance body.
- Yes.
- And I have to adjustto what it's capable of,
and find where the strengthslie, and the weaknesses,
(07:13):
and kind of adjust and move from there.
But I think what's been the most special
is that my son can see me dance.
- That's a beautiful thing.
- [Misty] Right.
- That he can understand that at his age.
- He has no idea, really, what I do.
He's been in the studio with me,
and he's like stepping on my toes.
And I'm like, okay, thisisn't going to work today.
(07:34):
- Right?
We'll bring him back maybe tomorrow.
You are no stranger to injury,
you've obviously danced throughmany serious ones before.
I was struck by
how you danced throughtibia stress fractures,
I mean, just in 2012,
and were in so much pain doingthat, but refused to stop.
What was that moment like for you,
(07:55):
and what was going through your mind
when you're dancing in so much pain,
but wanting to go on, giventhe enormity of the moment?
- There are so few opportunities.
In dance, in a company likeAmerican Ballet Theater,
when you're at the top of your field,
and the company is filled with, you know,
(08:16):
nearly 100 of the greatestdancers in the world,
and so, you know,
the opportunity to actuallybe given a principal role,
which I was given in 2012,
you know, to do the lead in The Firebird
when, you know, I hadbeen in the company for,
I think it was maybe 12 years,
and had never been given that opportunity.
(08:37):
And so, at that late age,
it was a risk they were taking on me,
and I had to prove myself.
And I knew
that if I didn't take thatopportunity to the fullest,
that I would never be given it again.
So when I started feelingthat pain in my shin,
I didn't tell anyone in the company,
because I knew they would say,
(08:57):
"Well, we don't want you to break,
so you're going to have tostep out of rehearsals."
And then I knew I wouldnever get on stage.
And I understood the significance
of being given that opportunity,
and that it was so much deeperand so much bigger than me
to be the first black womanto perform that role at ABT.
- Yes.
- And to possibly thenbe on this trajectory
to be promoted to Principal Dancer.
(09:19):
So I did everything I could
in terms of taking care of my body,
with people outside of thecompany, paying out of pocket.
I mean, you know,
it was a commitment.
But again, I knew that I hadto make it to that performance.
I ended up doing, I think aperformance or two in California
before I made my NewYork debut in the role,
(09:43):
and then I only performed it once
before my doctor said it's time.
- You really need time out.
Such an impossible choice.
- But what it meant, you know,
there was so much work that was done
with me and my manager,Gilda Squire, at the time,
a black woman who understoodthe journey that I was on,
and the commitment,
(10:05):
and, you know, what we wanted to do
for the black and brown community.
And so we were there,
you know, I was speakingat public schools,
and I was in Brooklyn, I was in Queens,
and I was in all of these places,
really showing them,like, this could be you.
- Yes.
- Whatever it is you choose to do,
you know, I come from this.
And just for them to see themselves in me.
And so we did so much workin really like, grassroots.
(10:30):
So by the time the performance came,
and, you know, I saw thisimage of myself as The Firebird
hanging over the MetropolitanOpera House at Lincoln Center,
to see this,
I just remember bawling my eyes out,
because it was like, I saw a black woman,
with like, boobs and a butt,
and just arched in the wind.
And I was like, "Yes!"
Like, this means so much to, you know,
(10:52):
so many people that walkpast Lincoln Center daily
and don't feel like theysee themselves reflected,
and don't feel like theycan be in that space.
And so, you know, on that night,
to see the audience, a sold out show,
with young and old, and black and brown,
it was the first time that we saw that,
and so it was worth it.
I didn't feel the painwhen I was on stage,
(11:14):
because, you know, the adrenaline,
and I remember, just theaudience was so loud,
I couldn't even hear the orchestra.
- Wow.
- And it was like a party.
And so it was like,
it does not matter whatI do on stage tonight.
- [Sam] The fact that you were there.
- Yeah. The fact I was there.
And I don't think it wasa very good performance,
but it was like,
what it meant to get thosepeople in that community
(11:35):
in the room.
Yeah.
- I can sort of feel that power
in the way you describe it,
and just can imagine the momentwhere you made that decision
and no matter the pain.
And thankfully it didn't havesuch long-term consequences
that you couldn't dance after that.
But that was a big trade off to make.
- Yes.
- Oh my goodness.
So you stepped into ballet atthe relatively old age of 13.
(11:57):
Unbelievable.
And you'd said, "I've needed to dance.
I didn't need the otherstuff that comes with it."
But that dance itself, themovement was so powerful to you
at that particular time.
Can you just tell our audience why?
You know, why dance,and ballet particularly,
'cause you were also doinggymnastics before that,
why that movement, andstructure, and discipline
(12:18):
was so important to you.
- Well, I had never done anything before,
I mean, I wasn't doing gymnastics,
I had taught myself things.
And like, I'd never taken anyformal lessons of any kind,
I wasn't involved in sports,
I'd never taken a dance class or anything.
But I remember fallingin love with gymnastics
from watching the Olympics,
(12:38):
and I remember therewas this Lifetime movie
on the gymnast, Nadia Comaneci.
- A legend.- And I was like,
just so in awe of the commitment,
and to see someone so young
and so passionate about something,
and it was like, I've neverexperienced that in my life,
like, I wonder what that feels like.
And so I ended up just like,
(13:00):
you know, in my mind, I think that like,
the floor exercises in gymnastics,
that was the closest thing I'dever seen to classical dance,
and I think that's why I was drawn to it.
This kind of more lyrical movement
when they were dancing in between,
you know, doing the tricks, the flips,
and the pirouettes and everything.
And so I started to teach myself,
(13:20):
like to do back bend walkovers,
and to do the splits.
And so that was like theextent of my experience.
But I think, you know, Iwas craving a discipline,
I was craving structure,
I was craving joy and beauty,
and some kind of escape in my life.
I grew up in really underprivileged,
(13:41):
you know, situations and communities,
and my mom was a single parent
raising six children on her own.
And we were constantly moving,
you know, not often knowingwhere we were going to end up
from day to day.
And so, so much of myexistence felt like a secret.
And this kind of shameful secret,
(14:02):
that I didn't want people to know
that we were in and out of motels,
and pretty much houseless.
And so I just distancedmyself from everyone,
I was very introverted and very shy.
I mean, I would spendrecess or lunch breaks,
like, wandering around theschool, or in the bathroom,
or in the library with teachers,
where I just felt more comfortable.
(14:23):
- Yeah.
- And so when I kind of foundthis passion for movement,
whenever there was musicplaying around the house,
or seeing, you know,
my mother was a professional cheerleader
for the Kansas City Chiefs football team,
and so she was dancing aroundthe house here and there.
And so that, I was drawnto the joy that I felt,
(14:44):
and this expression that I'dnever been able to experience.
And, you know, I barely spoke,
so I was writing, I was journaling,
and then I was moving,
and those were my forms of expression.
So by the time I was 12and a half, turning 13,
I decided to audition for the dance team.
And that was really my introduction to it,
to movement and to dance.
(15:04):
And I say it often,
but it saved my life in so many ways.
Even if it was just this kindof internal feeling of hope,
and some sense ofresponsibility for myself.
But there's so many incredibleattributes that, you know,
being a part of a discipline,being a part of an art form,
(15:27):
being part of a sport cando for a young person.
I think something assimple as having a space
that I could consistently go to every day
and know what to expect,
which, my life,
you know, I never knewwhat was going to happen,
and I had no controlover anything in my life.
And so to know that Icould come into a studio,
(15:47):
and it was very safe and quiet,
and I was responsible for my own body.
- Yes.
- That was incredible.
And I think it's I think the opposite,
with a lot of children.
I'm not going to say all,
because so many people find beauty
in the structure of danceand ballet in particular,
but I think a lot ofpeople come into dance,
and they feel that you get kind of,
(16:09):
you're tensed up becausethere's this need to be perfect,
and kind of this strictidea of how it's taught,
that's not always very nurturing.
And I was fortunate tobe in an environment
that was very nurturing,
where I could fully just fallin love with the art form.
And again, that structure and discipline.
(16:29):
- That's incredible.
So many things lined up foryou at their precise moment,
I think including the people in your life
who were helping you through.
When you think back on somerole models or supporters,
and what they did to youand, and did for you,
and meant to you at the time,
you know, can you think of one or two
who just really were thereat the right time for you?
- I have way too many to name here.
(16:51):
There's way more than, like, five.
But I mean, of course,Elizabeth Cantine, I would say,
was one of the first.
She was a teacher at my middle school,
she was teaching, I thinklike history and English,
and she ended up takingover the drill team
as like, the coach.
She had danced her whole life,
but then was also, you know,teaching at a public school.
(17:13):
And she's the one who mademe captain of the team,
and I had no dance experience.
I mean, I decided to audition for captain,
but I was shocked when sheactually made me captain.
- [Sam] That is great.
- When I'm going upagainst all of these girls
who've, you know, been in dance classes,
and, you know, all of this experience.
But she saw something in me,
beyond, you know, being in the drill team.
(17:34):
I think within the first week, she said,
"You've got a lot of potential,
I want to introduce youto a ballet teacher."
And that was when I wasintroduced to Cynthia Bradley,
who was my first ballet teacher.
And both of these women
are still very much a part of my life.
I was texting with Cindy today,
and she's always so emotional,
just about everythingthat's happening in my life.
(17:55):
And, you know, such a criticaldecision that was made,
like for her to see the talent,
but not just see it and say,
"I'll teach her, and ifsomething happens, it happens,"
but to fully invest in me, and nurture me,
and give me opportunity.
I mean, she moved me inwith her and her family,
and she just, I mean,she was newly married,
she had a 3-year-old son,
(18:16):
and she invited me to come live with her,
because she knew that,had she not done that,
there's no way I would've lasted.
- Yeah.
- That was not the focus for my mother,
she had other children
that she needed to keepfood on the table for,
she had two jobs.
You know, there were so many other things
that were priority.
- [Sam] Wow.
- And so those two women, I think,
(18:37):
have have been huge impacts in my life.
And also set up the way
that I look at the necessityof mentorship in my life.
- Yes.
- They set the standards high.
Victoria Rowell came intomy life at a young age,
she was a television actress,
she's a producer-director now,
(18:58):
and just, she danced,
she was with American Ballet Theater
in their junior company,
and she's biracial like I am.
And just to see someone
and talk to someone who looks like you,
and who's had similar experiences,
did so much for me.
You know, I think I was like19 or 20 when I met her.
And then the mentors just kept coming.
I mean, Prince was ahuge mentor in my life
(19:22):
in my mid-late twenties.
Susan Fales-Hill,
who sits on the board ofAmerican Ballet Theater,
she's a writer-producer as well.
But I've been so fortunateto have incredible people
that have come into my life
and seen the possibilities with me,
and really nurtured me.
And so I understand the purpose,
(19:42):
like, you know, of havingthose relationships,
but also to be a mentormyself at this point,
like the purpose of that.
- So we have so many otherthings we can talk about
with your dancing career,
but since you're enteringthis next chapter,
and you have a foundation now,
and I want to keep onthis notion of mentoring
and really supporting other people,
your Be Bold Foundation isreally designed to do that.
(20:06):
And I would just love foryou to just pause and say,
why was it so important foryou to set this foundation,
which is about dance and movements,
given all the people who helped you
and saw this potential in you,
what do you hope it does
for potential in otherchildren that you come across?
- I think, you know,
the reason I really wantedto start the foundation
was to give young peoplethis space to be supported,
(20:30):
to grow, to be curious, to find joy.
But I think, ultimately,
it's about investing in who they are,
and who they will potentially be as people
in the world and in society.
I think that's something thatI'm thinking about a lot,
especially in this political climate,
you know, how are we creating leaders?
(20:52):
How are we giving them the tools
to reach their fullest potential,
no matter where they come from?
And I feel wholeheartedly
that that's what ballet did for me.
You know, beyond the accolades,
and my career at American Ballet Theater,
and what I've accomplished,
the person that I've becomefrom that 13-year-old girl
is mind-blowing, thegrowth that's happened.
(21:14):
And so I know that beingexposed to a discipline
and an art form
is what made me that person.
And so in creating theMisty Copeland Foundation,
and our signature program being Be Bold,
Be Bold stands for
Ballet Explorations, BalletOffers Leadership Development.
So this is not about creating a pipeline
into a professional school
(21:35):
to potentially becomea professional dancer,
like that would be amazing,
and, you know, we want to set them up
and give them great training and technique
if that's the path they want to take,
but it's really, again,
about exposing them to this opportunity,
live music, incredible teachingartists who look like them,
who a lot of them comefrom their communities
that they're in.
(21:55):
So we're teaching, it's afree afterschool ballet class,
and it's in the Bronx and in Harlem.
We would love to growand become, you know,
more national and international,that would be fantastic,
but right now,
we're really focused on thesecommunities that need the arts
and that need afterschool programming
for these children.
So it's like a lifelong dream of mine.
(22:15):
I never thought I wouldfind the fulfillment
that I have had my whole career
that I have on stage andperforming and in the studio.
And I have that by doing this work,
it's incredible.
- I love that.
I mean, I'm very struck by the combination
of dance and music,
and how you talk aboutthat being very integrated.
But I love what the program emphasizes,
(22:35):
so, these traits,
leadership, curiosity,kindness, persistence,
and then of course,appreciation of dance and music.
When you have children in this program,
what do you hope they take away from it,
given your focus on those values?
- It's so hard to say whatI hope they would take away,
because, yeah, I had hopes
(22:56):
for what this program would look like,
and that, you know, theywould come away poised,
and have more of an interest in it,
and to see it go far beyondthose things already,
it's only been three years
since the program's been up and running,
and to see young people comeaway with different interests
that you wouldn't even imagine,
like more in reading,
(23:16):
like just expanding their minds
in how this kind of translates
into other areas of their life.
But even just as you know,
this escape from whatevertheir lives may be,
building community, thefriendships that they're building,
(23:36):
and we really push themto use their voices,
because that's somethingthat's not often a part
of the classical ballet experience.
Usually it's like, youdon't have an opinion,
you don't use your words,
you know, you're told what to do.
And so, to me, it's so counterintuitive
as to like what is expected of you
(23:58):
when you're supposed to bean artist, and go on stage.
And so it's like,
well, how and when areyou building that artistry
if everything's kind of being pushed down?
And so we really encourage theyoung people in the classroom
to voice their feelings and experience,
(24:18):
and that it's really afull body experience.
- I love that.
You were not shy in using your voice too
at times when you felt thatyou were part of institutions
that did not see people of color,
dancers of color, didn'tmake space for them.
Did you have to getyourself to a certain point
to feel bold and confident to do that?
(24:40):
And if so, what was thatpoint where you thought,
"I know who I am now,
I've proven who I can be,
I know I have all the intrinsics,
it's now time for me to use that voice."
- You know, I think it's somethingthat's always been in me.
And I really credit my mother for this.
I've had so many conversations,
just like now that I'mraising, you know, a son,
(25:00):
and he's black, and in thisworld, and what that means.
And, you know,
I feel good about the waymy mother kind of set us up.
Maybe there was somefear in there with it.
But you know, I remember being very young,
and her saying like,
"Yes, you guys are biracial.
But as soon as you step out of this house,
(25:21):
and especially in like theareas that you're growing up,
you're going to be seen as black,
and you're going to be treated
as black people in this world,
and to be prepared for that."
And I think that having that mindset,
it was such a big partof my identity that,
coming into the ballet world,
and being the only,
(25:42):
it was such a part of me thatneeded to be acknowledged,
and I needed to voice my experiences
of being the only, and what that meant.
And so I think, for me,
it was really about,
how do I navigate usingmy voice and expressing?
That took time.
But not the feeling that I had,
like that I was goingto speak at some point.
(26:05):
It was just a matter of,"How do I go about this?"
And I think that my personality,
I've always been someone tokind of sit back and observe,
and learn how, you know, situations work,
or people's personalities,before I take that leap.
- Yeah.
- And of course, havingmentors in my life as well,
that I was having theseconversations with,
(26:26):
and they were preparing me.
- That's incredible.
- To have the conversations.
But they really started, you know,
behind the walls ofAmerican Ballet Theater.
These weren't public conversationsI was having, you know?
I was having conversations early on
with the artistic directorof ABT at the time,
and even my colleagues.
And then I think, you know,
it just naturally,
(26:48):
when I was kind of put outthere more in the public,
it was a natural part ofwhat I needed to talk about,
because those were my experiences.
- Yeah. I mean, it's incredible.
You would talk to the choreographers
about movement for certainbodies, or costumes,
or how you'd powder your face.
I mean, there's so many waysthat I don't think many people,
(27:09):
unless you're living it,
realize that this comesout in so many ways.
Did you have to pickcertain areas to focus on?
Did you just take likeany opportunity you could
at a certain point to kindof raise your concerns?
- It was a combination.A combination of things.
- Yeah, yeah.
- I mean, I guess for the most part,
it was probably casting.
Those were really like,thought out conversations,
(27:30):
you know, that I was thinking about
in approaching the company.
I didn't want to come from this place
of anger, being defensive.
And I'd had the opportunityof watching so many black men,
not women, because I was theonly black woman in the company
for the first 10 years of my career,
(27:51):
but black men that had come and gone,
and watched how they were navigating.
And a lot of it was like,
"I'm not going to do that."
- Wow.
- But it's reallydifficult to be the only,
or one of the only,
and a lot of those emotionscan come out in anger,
or come out just over-emotional.
And you know, I learned a lot
(28:12):
from watching how other people responded,
and so I wanted to make sure
that I had kind of gotten all of that out
before I stepped into a room with,
you know, I mean, I waslike 21, 22 years old.
- Very young.
- Yeah, very young,
with like, no life experience really,
and coming in and trying to have
these really difficult conversations.
(28:34):
But, you know, so I washaving those conversations,
and just saying like,this is my experience,
and I feel like I'm not being cast
because there's never been ablack woman to do this role,
and maybe you see black womenonly in this narrow way.
And I think, you know, I can do this role.
Or what is it that I need to do to prepare
to be able to be seen,
(28:54):
you know, this role asa possibility for me.
But when it comes to, you know,
some of them were like you said,
it was kind of like,this is just the time,
this is what's happening,I'm going to say something.
- Yeah.
- When it came to a lot of themakeup and things like that,
that it just kind of happenedorganically when I was,
you know, being told tocolor my skin a lighter color
(29:16):
so that I could blend in
with the rest of the girlsin the court of ballet.
- Wow.
- That it was like more of an immediate,
like, I have to say somethingnow, in this moment.
- Did you feel that anyof those conversations
changed minds then and there,
whether it was thefolks who were staffing,
or your dancing colleagues, other dancers?
- Oh yeah, absolutely.
(29:36):
- [Sam] I mean, what'dpeople say to you afterwards?
Or over the years?
Do they thank you forhaving those conversations?
- I mostly have gotten thank yous
from people that havethe same experiences,
more so than, you know,
people that it was kind oflike an education for them.
I mean, I rememberhaving the conversations
with some of the makeup artists
who had been doing makeup in the company
(29:58):
for like 30, 40 years,
and just saying like,
"Well, why does it have to be this way?"
And then them saying,
"It doesn't. Okay, let'sdo something else."
And I'm like, "What? It was that easy?"
- That's all it took.- Right.
What?
I mean, I'm sure that, you know,
there are other roles
that maybe they wouldn'thave been so flexible on,
(30:18):
but I mean, I voiced what I was thinking,
and like, well, why can't wedo this color or this way?
Like, why does it haveto be done this way?
And then to have it be soeasily like, kind of dismissed,
I was like, oh, I'mgoing to keep doing that.
- Exactly. Exactly.
- I'm going to keep speakingup and using my voice.
But when it comes to my colleagues,
you know, I thinksomething that I often say
(30:41):
to a lot of the young blackand brown kids that I speak to
is that, you know,
we have so much more in common
with people who are different from us.
And I think that it's importantto kind of build this base.
Like, for me,
my colleagues got to know me,
I mean, we're like a family.
Again, I've been in thecompany for 25 years.
- Yes.
(31:01):
- You grow up with these people,
you travel the world with them.
And so people got to know me,
you know, oh, you're Misty,
I don't see you as like,
the only black woman in the company,
or whatever it was.
So I think it was like alittle easier for me to have
some difficult conversations with them
when I'd built realrelationships and friendships
with people.
(31:21):
And had to like, checkpeople a lot, you know?
And they would say things
that they didn't recognizeor see as hurtful, or racist,
or whatever it might be,
and I'd have to call them out.
And I'm like, it's comingfrom a place of love,
but like, this is not okay.
And then like them kind of saying,
"Oh, I didn't realize that."
But I feel so grateful
for all the relationships that I built,
(31:42):
and being able to have thoseuncomfortable conversations,
and have it be not as,
these are conversationsthat are easier to have now,
nowadays, that were not 10, 15 years ago,
and I'm grateful for that.
- It's really a tribute toyour willingness to do that.
And you're put in asituation where, as the only,
maybe not given a choice,
(32:03):
so it's a testament to you.
You know, where you are givena choice is to tell stories.
And so, as an author,
a very prolific author,
you've really chosen to usethat part of your platform,
I think in such a beautiful way
for children, for adults.
I want to talk about some ofthe things you've written.
So, "Firebird,"
you wrote almost like aletter to your younger self,
(32:25):
which I guess I can really see you wishing
you had something likethat when you were younger.
- Yeah.
- So talk about the response to that book,
and how you think other dancers coming up
kind of perceived it,
you know, your experiencesnow, what that meant them.
- You know, the idea for "Firebird"
really came out of my relationshipwith one of my mentors,
(32:46):
Raven Wilkinson,
Christopher Myers, whoI wrote the book with,
and he did, you know, thebeautiful illustrations.
I met him, and he was like,
"I want to come up withthis concept together,
so I just want to like, followyou around in your life."
I was like, "Okay."
I'd never written a book before.
I was like, Is this howit goes? I don't know."
So he would watch rehearsals,
(33:08):
he came to a performance,
and then he'd go, he's like,
"Well, what are you doing today?"
I was like, "Oh, I'm havinglunch with one of my friends.
She's a mentor of mine, andshe used to be a ballerina,
in the fifties she was onlyblack woman in her company,
like back then."
And he was like, "Oh, can I come?"
And I was like, "Okay."
And so he saw thisrelationship, and he was like,
"This is it."
- Oh my goodness.
- "The power in having someone with like,
(33:30):
generations between you,
and that you're like speakingthis beautiful language,
like the same language together,
and you're supporting each other."
And so that was where thestory really developed from,
like, the importance of havingthat type of relationship,
and what it can do for a young person,
when you're having doubtsand feeling insecure,
you don't maybe see peopleimmediately around you
(33:52):
who look like you.
And so that book has justcontinued to like pay it forward
with so many generations.
And it's really incredible,
you know, after the career that I've had,
to meet young people whodon't know me as a performer
'cause they've neverseen me dance on stage.
- Only as an author.
(34:13):
- [Misty] But as an author.
- It's great.
It's a whole other identity,
which you can certainly lean into now
in your second chapter even more.
But isn't that fascinating?
You know, you obviously have come up,
and dancing was everything.
- Yeah.- So I love that.
That's amazing.
You've also written aboutother trailblazing women,
"Black Ballerinas," as another book.
And talk to me about theprocess of doing that.
(34:33):
You were learning,
and finding otherinformation about dancers
that just wasn't really outthere in the public eye.
- It was so important for meto write a book like this.
You know, I've said so often that,
you open up a ballet history book
and you do not see faces like mine.
You don't see our storiesdocumented in those books,
and so I've always felt like
(34:54):
I want to start writing our history books
and kind of going backand telling the stories
of those who don't get their due,
because their stories aren't out there.
- Yeah.
- And I knew that these weren'tstories I could just Google
and learn about these people,
so it was a lot of word of mouth,
and just like reachingout to certain people,
and like hearing stories from them.
(35:15):
And that kind of helped me to shape,
you know, what the book would look like.
I mean, it was really difficultto choose, I think 27,
I think we chose 27, maybe,dancers in that book,
and it was so hard to just choose that.
- I'm glad there's more and more.
- [Misty] There's many more.
- But to find oral histories,
and that being so importantto the story, is amazing.
(35:36):
I think it's almost a lost art now, right?
Because we can Google everythingright and find information.
- Right.
- But those storiesmust have been so rich.
- Incredible.
I mean, and that's one of the things
I love about ballet as well,
is that so much of it is oral history
that's passed down from dancer to dancer
when you're learning ballets.
(35:57):
We have like dance notationthat's rarely used,
but other than, like that,
it's really just documented
from choreography that's passed on,
it's literally from person to person.
And so it felt so fitting for this book
that that's how I wouldbe receiving this history.
- Almost to another dancer down the road
(36:17):
that you're going to convey that too.
I think that's really beautiful.
And "Bunheads,"
so this is book for children,
and your second one willcome out in the Fall,
what did you want to showyounger children about
when it came to this book?
- It was really about showingthe beauty in community.
You know, when you commit to something,
whatever it is,extracurricular, sport, or art,
(36:41):
it's really based onme, as a young dancer,
like coming into a studio withjust these misfit characters
that come from different cultures,
and different life experiences,
and have different body types,
and they're all different ages.
And so it's just this likemotley crew of ballet dancers.
(37:04):
And they're all, like,
they're actual people that I grew up with,
and like the little girl, Cat,
in the second book that's coming out,
will be really based on her experience.
But it's giving youngpeople an opportunity
to see themselves through allof these different characters.
And I wanted to valuetheir different culture,
(37:25):
so we celebrate Catalina being Mexican,
and you get to see likethe home she grew up in,
and then how she's takingbits of her culture
and applying it to the character of Kitri
in the Spanish ballet, Don Quixote.
So you get to learn about,
kind of dive into a differentballet with each book,
so this is a series.
And the first one, Misty,
(37:46):
little Misty, was the star of that book,
and the ballet, Coppelia,
and then the second bookwill be Cat, Catalina.
We'll have the differentcharacters in each book
that you'll be able to learnabout in a different ballet.
- I think right now, it'smore important than ever
to have these stories out there.
You know, it has been,
I think more challengingin this environment
to appreciate people's differences,
(38:06):
and to make sure everybodystill feels heard
and valued for that.
And I think the way to get through it
is to keep having folkslike you use your platform,
keep showing people it's okay,
show that perseverance,
and build that community.
So whether it's through storytelling,
your foundation,
(38:27):
or any of your new pursuits,it really comes through,
and I think it is vital right now.
- Yes, it is.
- [Sam] So, thank you for doing that.
- Thank you so much for saying that.
You're absolutely right.
I mean, it's so, I think, critical,
even more now,
that I'm doing this workthrough my foundation
and continuing to giveblack and brown children,
(38:50):
immigrant children, you know,
a space to feel safe, and to feel seen,
and to be able to feellike they're still living.
And that's what the art formhas done for me my whole life.
- When I think of all theMisty Copelands out there
that we have yet to discover,that's the motivator,
so I just want to say thank you for that.
So as you wrap up this currentstage, your dancing stage,
(39:13):
what do you plan to do next?
What are the next stageswe will see you on?
What will you be doing?
- I like that you use that word, stages,
because there will be manymore stages that I will be on,
and like, entering into different stages,
and, you know, continuetraveling, and speaking,
and writing books,
and you know, my workthrough the foundation
and the production company.
(39:34):
But it's all with the samegoal in mind, you know?
It's really to bring dance toas many people as possible,
to show the diversity in it,
and the importance of seeingdifferent types of people,
and that everyone should be able
to be a part of this experience.
I would love to continuedancing in some capacity.
It won't be a full length ballet,
it won't be Swan Lake again,
(39:55):
I don't think I'll everdo that ballet again.
But to be on stage and moving,
whether I'm producing a show,
or something more geared towards Broadway,
I'm very open to what's to come,
I try not to plan too much.
- Which is funny toactually hear you say that,
given you had to be sodisciplined in planning.
(40:17):
- I know.
I think that when it comes to, for me,
like what I've done outsideof classical ballet,
it's really felt like natural and organic,
and spoke to like what I wasfeeling in those moments.
- Yeah.
- You know, my work with Prince,
I remember it being really,
feeling like his audience,
(40:39):
it would be amazing to beable to show this audience
that maybe doesn't haveinterest in this art form,
or maybe they've neverseen classical ballet,
but how can we expose as manypeople as possible to it?
So I think in situations like that,
that feel natural and organic,
I will step into.
- I'm curious,
now that you don't have tohave the same rigid structure,
(41:00):
how do your days flow?
- I have to have structure,
I think that's what drew me to ballet.
But it's definitely,
I still am structured,
ballet taught me structure.
- Yeah.
- But I definitely have allowed myself
to kind of not be as rigid.
I literally was having theconversation this morning
with my husband,
(41:21):
you know, I dove back into training,
and my body's like, "What areyou doing? This is too much."
And so it's kind of likeI have to step back,
and I can't step into things
the way that I've donethem my whole career.
I'm in a different body, Ihave different priorities,
and I want to enjoy this time.
I don't want to feel like,
"Oh, just because I'mback in training mode,
I have to be like sad,and focused, and hurt."
(41:43):
Right?
- No, none those things.
- [Misty] That it canbe a joyful experience.
- Do you let yourself think about,
when you go back and perform,
how are you going to feel?
Do you imagine yourselfthere on the stage again?
- I do. I do.
And, you know, so many people are like,
"Oh, you're going to be soemotional," and all of these things.
But I just think I'm going to have fun.
I don't really havelike, big expectations.
(42:06):
I just want to enjoymyself and not get hurt.
- Yes, fair enough.
- That's the number one goal.
- So if you were to sayone thing to our listeners,
as a legacy, and what youwant your legacy to be,
what do you think that is?
- Oh, my goodness.
I mean, I feel like so much
of what I want to leave people with is,
you know, the beauty and thepower of dance and movement,
(42:28):
and the importance ofhaving that in our lives
no matter what age youare, where you come from.
But I think also theimportance of storytelling,
so much of what we've been talking about,
the importance of carrying on the stories
of people from the past,
and not diminishing the value of people
(42:48):
once you reach a certain age,
that they're even more valuable.
- Yes. The wisdom.
- The wisdom, the lifeexperiences, all they have to give.
That has been such animportant part of my journey,
and I hope that that'swhat I leave behind,
you know, the importance of legacy
and lifting up others, and community.
(43:08):
- Well, Misty, when Ithink about your legacy,
I think about courage,perseverance, strength,
just beauty and unbelievable grace.
So thank you so much for speaking with us,
and we wish you the bestin your next chapter,
dancing and otherwise, so.
- Thank you so much.
- Thank you.
(43:33):
Thank you for listening to my conversation
with Misty Copeland.
What Misty has built goesfar beyond the stage,
it's a movement grounded inpurpose, courage, and change.
Her work shows us what's possible
when we commit to being bothexcellent and inclusive.
I hope my conversation with Missy
inspires you to use your voice
and create opportunities forothers along your chosen path.
(43:56):
If you enjoyed this podcast,don't forget to like, share,
and subscribe to it on yourfavorite podcast platform.
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