September 23, 2025 • 43 mins
Women hold the world together—yet much of what we do remains hidden in plain sight. From caregiving and raising children to providing emotional support and nurturing relationships, these essential contributions often go unnoticed and undervalued. Even worse, we sometimes fail to give ourselves credit for the life-changing roles we play. In this episode of Women Road Warriors, we’re joined by Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr. Doreen MacAulay, award-winning scholars at the University of South Florida and authors of Our In-Visible Work. Their groundbreaking research reveals how the lack of recognition for their contributions not only suppresses women but also disempowers them across workplaces, families, and communities. Both serve as regular columnists for Psychology Today and are on a mission to expose this hidden invalidation and advocate for the acknowledgment women have long deserved for the important roles they play often in the background. This conversation aspires to inspire a re-evaluation of how we perceive and value the vital yet frequently overlooked labor that women perform daily. Tune in to this episode for a powerful, eye-opening conversation that will change the way you view “invisible” work—and inspire you to start valuing the roles that too often go unrecognized.
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#OurInvisibleWork #JanelleWells #DoreenMacAulay #ShelleyMJohnson #ShelleyJohnson #KathyTuccaro #WomenRoadWarriors #WomensEmpowerment women empowerment, invisible work, emotional labor, women in the workplace, caregiving responsibilities, recognition of women’s contributions, workplace culture,
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
This is Women Road warriorswith Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
From the corporate office tothe cab of a truck, they're here
to inspire and empower womenin all professions.
So gear down, sit back and enjoy.
(00:23):
Welcome.
We're an award winning showdedicated to empowering women in
every profession throughinspiring stories and expert insights.
No topics off limits on ourshow, we power women on the road
to success with expert andcelebrity interviews and information
you need.
I'm Shelley and Kathy's on assignment.
(00:45):
Women make a tremendouscontribution to this world in the
workplace, as caregivers andas mothers raising our future generations.
Too often our contributionsare overlooked unless uncompensated
and underappreciated.
Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr.Doreen McCauley have researched this
extensively and want what wedo to be recognized.
(01:06):
They're the authors of ourInvisible work, an exploration of
what women do and how the lackof recognition suppresses and disempowers
women.
They're award winning scholarsat the University of South Florida.
Both of these ladies have acolumn in Psychology Today and they're
on a mission to stop thisinvalidation of women.
We have both of them on ourshow today to discuss this.
(01:28):
Welcome, Dr. Wells and Dr. McCully.
Thank you for being on the show.
And thank you, Shelly.
We appreciate the platform toreally bring voice and value to this.
We love what we're doing.
We're all about empoweringwomen and certainly your message
here is doing that.
I thought before we couldlaunch this conversation that's so
important, we could cover bothof your backgrounds and what motivates
(01:51):
you to pursue this valuable topic.
Yes, absolutely.
I'll start it, then I'll passit to Doreen.
Yeah, I'll start with, youknow, 2016, I think, was my awakening
when I first saw it.
I had a student in ourgraduate program.
Our students work three days aweek for one of our partners so they
can get real world experience.
(02:12):
And she came into my officevisibly upset and just talked about
some of the.
She called themmicroaggressions, I might say they
were macro aggressions thatshe was facing in the workplace and
she didn't feel seen.
And we sat there, we criedtogether, we had great conversations
and.
But I saw her and what we didafter hearing her and hearing the
(02:33):
stories and the experiencesthat she was having, you know, we
went back to thatorganization, we went to their HR
department.
We created some training, somelearning and development around these
things, and we made it visibleto everyone, not just her.
And so that's why we in thebook, specifically our invisible
work.
That's why we have parenthesesaround the.
In part because it was visibleto this student, but it had been
(02:54):
invisible to the others.
And so that was 2016.
But it made me reflectbecause, you know, I was raised by
a single mother.
She's a Latina single mother,and she's personally deaf.
And so I started to reflect.
I'm like, wow, this isn't justthe visibility and the invisibility.
Oh, how many things was shebeen doing that I didn't even recognize
until.
(03:14):
Until I was a mother and doingthat things or until I was in the
workplace and facing some ofthese things?
And so we.
We started to write, you know,and then I'm going to fast forward
a little bit to 2020, whenDoreen and I had to work more closely
together.
And at that time in 2020,obviously a pandemic had hit this
world, but Doreen and I wereworking on a new class, and so we
(03:38):
got to talking about some ofthese things, and I know a lot of
her, and I'll let her talkabout some of her research and identities
and roles in the workplace.
And so we started to bond onsome of those things.
And also what we were doingthat was invisible, servicing our
students at that time, youknow, a lot of emotional labor that
we were.
That we were doing as facultymembers, serving our students.
And so that brings us to 2020.
(03:58):
So then I'll pass it to do.
Okay, fantastic.
Thank you.
So, yeah, so I guess when Ifirst was kind of approached by Janelle,
we were working on a fewthings, and she shared the idea that
she had for this book, which Iabsolutely fell in love with.
And it really resonated withme because of my work as a researcher.
So, you know, when I wasresearching during my PhD program,
(04:22):
we talked a lot about identityand how does, you know, an individual
kind of show up in the workplace?
So that's something that'sbeen really important to me.
And one of the things thatalways struggled with was, you know,
why when, you know, womendecided to join the workplace or
in their struggle to join theworkplace over the years, has it
been that they've had tofollow this very masculine, you know,
(04:46):
drug path, Right.
And so this path that.
That men had been kind of following.
And so to me, it was like,wait, but we're.
We're not.
We are.
We're different in that, andwe have different responsibilities.
And in our, you know, quest todo that, you know, all of these other
things that we were doing, wejust kind of started to IGN more.
And.
And then they.
So they stayed invisible.
(05:07):
Right.
And so that's.
To me, when, when Janelleapproached me about this idea, it
clicked completely for me, youknow, and because actually one of
my colleagues did some reallygreat research on looking at, you
know, what was keepingindividuals from the C suite in.
It was in the accountingprofession specifically.
And a lot of it was aroundchoice, right around the.
(05:28):
The woman's choice to want todo something different.
So that to me was like, well,wait a second, maybe we have to redefine
and what that really means andwhy do we have to have this kind
of one idea of what thatsuccess is?
So it really kind of alignedin with what Janelle wanted to explore
around kind of all of thesethings that we do.
(05:49):
And then the other piece of itas well, as Janelle had alluded to,
is that we're both definitelypeople who go above and beyond in
the workplace, but we havenoticed over our careers that a lot
of times that is doing thework that is seen to be maybe be
a role that a female should be taking.
(06:11):
You know, I have been askedin, told that because of my gender
that I should be the one whotakes the notes and I need to be
the one who organizes the parties.
And I.
And so, you know, having hadthat experience, you know, there's
this need for us to be talkingabout how that's not right.
Right.
And how can we, you know, movepast that and start to put some light
(06:32):
on it.
So, so yeah, so that's kind ofhow we came together on this book.
And really the two of us havethis great passion to be able, allow
people to be appreciated forwhat they do and then maybe finding
ways to balance out the workthat we all do.
Amen to that.
Bravo for this.
Because it's not beingdiscussed enough.
And it's true, it does seemlike women do the jobs of a whole
(06:55):
lot more people.
We have to clone ourselves andwe don't get noticed and appreciated
as often as we should.
Why do you think the work ofwomen is still invisible in the 21st
century?
Ooh, isn't that the milliontrillion dollar question?
Maybe.
Shelley?
Yeah, I would say, you know,there's always going to be an invisible
(07:18):
economy.
We know that.
Like there is always a.
We're always going to needvolunteers, whether it's your association,
your church group, the schools.
However, what has happened andwhat has been happening with higher
level dual earning households,now that has changed, technology
has changed, women are goingto school and colleges and graduate
(07:39):
at a higher rate than ever before.
So those things have shifted.
Yet women still doing 75% ofthe domestic in care labor at home.
That hasn't shifted with the times?
Oh, it's true.
A woman gets done with workduring the day, then she's got a
whole lot more work before shegoes to bed that night.
(07:59):
Yes.
On average the, what the statsare saying is four and a half hours
more.
Wow.
I mean, and that adds up.
And then the weekend comes andif they want to spend quality time
with their children and theirhusband and, or their significant
other, you're going to be exhausted.
I mean, when do you have timefor sleep and your own self care,
you know?
Absolutely.
(08:20):
So why do you think all ofthis is?
Is it because women have beenreluctant to speak up or they just
are taught this is your lockin life?
You know, it's interestingbecause I think it has a lot to do
with the society that we, webelong to.
Right.
And so there isn't a lot ofvalue put on the, you know, being
(08:45):
in the home or taking care of,you know, our, our young or doing
those types of things.
And even if we just look atthe way that the salary disbursement
of different positions insociety are.
Right.
And so because of that therehas been want in our, I guess, I,
I think in our want to be successful.
(09:07):
We're, we're looking to thosepositions, we're looking to jobs
and we put value on them justby the actual paycheck they're getting
or the salary they're gettingor whatever the case.
And so because of that, Ithink that there's, you know, it's.
That's part of it, right?
So that's part of it.
So what, what people areaspiring to are these positions that
(09:27):
are going to maybe give themmore money, if that's what we're
really thinking as we define success.
Success.
But at the same time, I dothink you're, you're correct in that
women are still, or youngladies and girls are developed to
still have this much more of acaring responsibility for others
(09:48):
or to be concerned about the,you know, feelings of others even,
you know, if you look at thetoys that we have, right, you have,
you know, a typical boy's toy,maybe two trucks that can slam together
and no one's going to get hurt.
Whereas a typical girl's toymay be a doll or you know, some type
of form that if it hitstogether, then there's emotions involved.
And so from a very young agewe start to kind of understand things
(10:13):
from a very emotional point of view.
So we are concerned with that more.
Right.
And so because of that, thereis this, I think, this weight that
gets put on women still, thatit's their responsibility.
Yeah.
Well, when you think about it,traditionally, when you're talking
about money making and soforth, that was always outside the
home.
And when women didn't reallywork outside the home, they didn't
(10:35):
get reimbursed financially.
Exactly.
For caregiving and for raising children.
I remember my father saying,she who rocks the cradle rules the
world.
I mean, he had the most utmostrespect for motherhood.
And it's true.
I mean, we're shaping entiregenerations, and it's an important
role.
Caregiving, motherhood.
(10:57):
All of the above.
And even if it isn'tnecessarily a paid position, and
it shouldn't be based onmoney, the importance of something,
it should be recognized forwhat it is, because it's a tough
job.
We have to be psychics.
We have to have eyes in thebacks of our heads.
You know, you're always tryingto anticipate what your kid's going
(11:19):
to be doing, or if you'retaking, say, care of an elderly parent
or a family member, that's awhole new can of worms that people
are dealing with a lot today.
And it's usually that falls onthe women, too, you know.
And Shelly, you're making areally good point there, because
I think there's also somethingaround because, you know, like, it
shouldn't be money.
It shouldn't be.
There's this kind of anotherpiece of this puzzle to me is this
(11:42):
concept of like the zero sumgame, right.
Is so that if.
If you get something, I mustbe losing something.
Right.
And we don't think of how.
Well, no, how can we becreating something together, Right.
And so, you know, when Ithink, you know, if you think of
the very liberal feministapproach to trying to get kind of
(12:04):
significance of women insociety, it was very much that we
needed to enter the workplacebecause that's where money was and
that was where there was power.
That was the significance.
And so when you have that, though.
But it was like, well, ifsomeone gets in and someone else
tries to get in, you're takingit away from that someone who already
got in.
Right.
So there's only like one seatat the table for a woman, for example.
(12:28):
Right.
And so, you know, it createdthis competition between us as well.
And then that zero sum kind ofthen creates an almost a.
An animosity amongst women as well.
So I think that plays a partin it as well, because I Do feel
like, you know, there is thisstrife between, you know, the.
(12:48):
Because one of the things thatwe struggled with when we were actually
doing our original surveys waswe were asking for people, you know,
what?
Work is invisible.
And then some of the peoplethat we were asking to be involved,
they're like, well, I'm a stayat home mom, so I don't really work.
And so we had to really changeour phrasing around that because
(13:09):
it was this idea that there'sa strife between those that work
and those that don't.
You know what I mean?
And there's a value differenceto that, and that's what we have
to get past.
I don't know if you knew this,but I think it was back in the 1940s
in Washington, D.C. a lot offederal workers there were women
and men working.
If they got married, one ofthem had to quit because both of
them could not be on a federal payroll.
(13:31):
And of course, usually it wasa woman.
So a lot of people cohabitatedat that point because they didn't
want to lose that extra income.
They wanted to work.
And why should a woman have tosay, okay, I'm done?
And Shelley, that's also whyin the book.
And it was great, thisrevelation for us as a stay at home
mom pointed out, I was like,wait, we want to make sure we have
a shared vocabulary, you know,and so that's why we define invisible
(13:56):
work in there, you know, aslike any work emotionally, mentally,
physically done for someoneelse without acknowledgment of the
time, effort, or contribution.
So again, here we're notsaying the compensation, but how
do you acknowledge our work?
Sometimes I need that work.
It could be a simple thankyou, right?
Giving me the bandwidth, thespace to be able to do all these,
(14:16):
all the work that needs to be done.
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Welcome back to Women Road.
Warriors with Shelly Johnsonand Kathy Tuccaro.
If you're enjoying thisinformative episode of Women Road
Warriors, I wanted to mentionKathy and I explore all kinds of
(15:45):
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We feature a lot of expertinterviews, plus we feature celebrities
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Please check out ourpodcast@womenroadwarriors.com and
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(16:07):
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We want to help as many womenas possible.
Women really do power theworld in the workplace, at home,
(16:27):
and as caregivers shaping thenext generation.
Yet too often their work goesunseen, uncompensated, underappreciated
and unacknowledged.
Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr.Doreen McCully, award winning scholars
at the University of SouthFlorida and columnists for Psychology
Today have dug deep into thisissue in their book, Our Invisible
(16:48):
Work.
Through research and personalstories, they shine a light on the
hidden labor like organizing,caretaking and emotional support
that keeps workplaces andhomes running but rarely gets recognized.
They're on a mission to bringthis vital, undervalued work out
of the shadows and into thespotlight where it belongs.
Dr. Janelle and Dr. Doreen itseems like for years the importance
(17:11):
of the roles women play havebeen so under acknowledged and maybe
even demeaned.
Well, for instance, the term housewife.
Since when is a woman marriedto a house?
They're not.
Mm.
I mean, that seems kind ofdemeaning, doesn't it?
Oh, absolutely.
And there's a lot of work thatgoes into managing a home, planning,
(17:36):
budgeting, scheduling.
It's probably a multitude oftasks that if you really break it
down, it's a job and it's non stop.
It's, it's true.
You know, it's one of thosethings that I've had several students
over the years who have comeBack after having had children.
And so they're, you know,maybe they're up, upskilling a little
(17:56):
bit.
And then they're going intothe workplace and they're worried
about it and how, and it's,it's been this interesting, you know,
exercise to work with them, tokind of show them the skills that
they've developed when they do it.
And how do you put that into,you know, you know, refer, you know,
resume language because, youknow, and when you talk to them and
(18:17):
you say, okay, well, you, youorganize this schedule and then you've,
you know, you've, you're theone who kind of takes care of all
the, you know, arrangementsfor things or, or let's say that
you to, you know, have five orsix depending on how many kids are
in your household along withyourself and your spouse that you're
trying to manage.
You know, all of these, youknow, managing skills, project management
(18:39):
skills, time management skillsthat they have and that, so they
don't realize.
And so I, I tell you thisbecause I think it is really, you
know, if we look at the skillsrequired, the effort required, the
time, all of that.
It is, it is like a full time,well, it is a full time job.
It is.
And, and the skills are reallyimportant because you're having to
do all of these thingsactually transitions well into the
(19:02):
workplace because you have tobe a negotiator, you have to be a
manager, you have to be adiplomat, you have to be a planner.
All of these are definite skills.
And a lot of times, if womenopt to leave the workplace to raise
a family and they're penalizedwhen they come back in, it's kind
of like, well, what have youbeen doing for the past 15 years
or whatever it is, you know?
(19:22):
Absolutely.
Oh, yes, Shelley.
And they talk about that beingthe motherhood tax, but yet it's
the fatherhood promotion, youknow, because it'll say that women,
we have a 4% decrease in ourpay and men will get a 6% increase
for each child.
Yeah.
And women, the stats are theyhave less saved for retirement than
men.
So.
Wow.
It puts women in a veryprecarious spot.
(19:44):
And I do think our societydevalues the roles that women play
and they really do need to berecognized, which is why your book
is so important.
What are some of the thingsthat you folks cover in your book
too?
Create the awareness and maybethe appreciation to really validate
women to finally bring thisout into the sunshine and say, you
(20:06):
know, hey, women need this recognition.
Yeah.
One of them I think that mightnot be as visible is the emotional
labor.
You know, Doreen had eventalked about that when she was talking
about this nurturing mindset.
There's a lot of times we'reexpected, just as women in general,
to calm down, nurture, Right.
(20:26):
See those emotions, helpothers regulate their emotions.
And so we do.
So we wanted to make sure wehave an entire chapter that's just
dedicated to emotional laborin there.
Now, first we have to unpack it.
What is emotional labor?
What does that mean?
Yeah.
What is that?
Yeah.
Dorian, do you want to give adefinition of emotional labor?
Sure.
Absolutely.
So emotional labor is theenergy expended to be able to control
(20:52):
one's emotions in a given situation.
So if you think about, youknow, you talked about, you know,
sometimes mothers have to bethe negotiator, or, you know, wives
have to be the negotiator.
And in that situation, you maywant to be very angry, right.
Because you're negotiatingover something that you think maybe
(21:14):
you shouldn't be negotiating over.
Right.
And so there may be this, buthaving to keep your calm.
Right.
And to kind of express anemotion that's going to allow the
situation to move.
Move forward the way that itneeds to, not necessarily that one
that you're revealing inside.
So that suppression is anemotional labor.
(21:34):
So if I'm not able to kind ofexpress that exact emotion that I
want in a given situation,there is a exhaustion that comes
from that, and that's when wetalk about our emotional labor.
Just as an example, if peoplehaven't heard of the term that we
use to kind of help peoplerelate to it is this.
Think of someone who would bemaybe at the front desk of a hot.
(21:57):
You know, they have an irateclient that's come in.
Maybe they're very angry aboutsomething, and they, you know, something
has just happened and they'reyelling at the person.
And the person can't just yellback, Right.
They need to, especially in acustomer service situation, they
need to be calm, and they needto be able to respond in a way that
will allow the situation todiffuse and then be able to carry
(22:18):
forward.
Well, that idea is thatemotional labor.
So when you take on thatemotion, but you can't express it,
it.
So, you know, one of the ways,as a mother, this may happen is that,
you know, when your child getshurt, right.
You may want to hurt theperson back who hurt them.
Right.
But that's not going to helpthe child learn, and that's not going
(22:39):
to be, you know, somethingthat's Beneficial for the situation.
So you have to kind of contain that.
But that containment is work, right.
And it takes a lot for you todo it.
And so why we talk about it,there's a lot of reasons why we talk
about.
One of the main things in itis that we forget that emotional
labor is hard work.
(23:01):
Oh, heck, yes.
It's exhausting.
Right.
And we don't give it.
So.
So when you're exhausted atthe end of the day, when you said.
Because you had mentioned.
And it's so true.
By the time the weekend comes,I'm exhausted, I, you know.
Yes, I know maybe you'd loveto spend time with me, but I am,
I am spent.
But a lot of that being spentcomes from this idea that, you know,
I've had to kind of controlthe way that I'm reacting all week,
(23:25):
right.
And so now that I have, I haveto take the time to decompress from
that.
I need to realize that's astress on me and my body and I.
I need to rest.
Rest is so essential.
Everybody needs it.
Absolutely.
Yes, absolutely.
And I think women todayprobably get less rest than they
(23:46):
used to.
And of course, with ourinterconnected world, so often the
office is contacting you at 9o' clock at night, texting you, and
it's just non stop.
You're too.
You have no time for yourself,let alone the people you want to
be around, which is thequality of life you need to have.
What are some of the mainpoints of your book that address
(24:07):
some of this and how we canmake a change?
Well, Shelley, I want, I wantto point out one more chapter too,
before we get to thatquestion, because much as emotional
intelligence or emotionallabor is also this idea of our intersecting
roles and identity, you know,because sometimes, you know, think
about being in the workplaceand maybe it's before you've had
(24:27):
a child, but you've justinformed the workplace, you know,
that you are.
And you're gonna be takingparental leave.
Sometimes people will betrying to say, oh, it's only one
identity or one role.
That's not true.
We have to represent.
It's like a prism, right?
You see multiple colors, yousee multiple angles, and how do all
of those interact?
And I think sometimes we liketo say, oh, just because I'm a woman,
(24:48):
I'm being asked this or no, isthis because I'm a mother, I'm being
asked?
Or it's because of both.
They're all of the above, youknow, And I think sometimes we try
to separate them, which thendoes Minimize just the weight and
the gravity of theexpectations as well.
Absolutely.
Well said.
So then, Shelley, to get toyour other question about, you know,
kind of how.
What are some of the pointsthat we wanted to kind of bring forward
(25:09):
and really what we're hopingthis book serves as, as a beginning
of a conversation for a lot ofpeople, because one of the things
that we, you know, even fromour own experience and then from,
you know, speaking with othersand kind of understanding this more,
we realize that oftentimesthings get taken on as roles and
(25:30):
responsibilities by default.
Right.
But if we have a conversationaround, what does this actually look
like and do I need help or doI really need to be the person that
takes on this responsibility?
Once we start thoseconversations, we can actually then
(25:50):
make a change.
And so just as an example, youknow, I think one of the things that
happened to a lot of familiesduring COVID right, Was this realization
by everyone in the family kindof who's doing what, right?
And.
And who's responsible for what.
And when you had time whereyou were probably maybe spending
a lot more time under the sameroof as people, you start to see
(26:14):
what people do on a regularbasis and having that, you know,
conversation and saying, okay,well, why are these responsibilities
falling on me?
Right.
Then you can start to see,okay, well, can we be giving some
of these tasks away?
And so I'll use a personalstory if you'll.
(26:34):
You feel, bear with me, shall we?
Sure.
This is a time where myhusband and we had some friends and
we were chatting and.
And he had just been, youknow, through the conversation of
the night, had talked abouthow he had done some laundry, and
then he had done some dishesand he would done some vacuuming.
But it was just differentstories that kind of, you know, weaved
in through the evening.
And then, so someone kind ofbrought this all together, and they
(26:54):
said, well, wait a second, youknow, and my husband's name.
And they said, if you do thelaundry and the dishes and you do
the.
The vacuuming, well, what doesDoreen do around the house?
Right?
Or what does Doreen do?
Right?
And so, and so his responsewas not one I liked, right?
Because he was, like, notquite sure.
(27:14):
And just kind of joke becausewe had, you know, just kind of laughing
or whatever.
We were kind of amongstfriends, right?
So, but this.
This, this.
This hit me.
And so I had a conversationwith him later.
It's like, you know, we.
We need to talk about this, right?
And so we did, right?
And I wrote out, you know,well, I make sure the appointments
are done and I, I make surethat the birthday parties are organized
(27:36):
and I make sure that the giftsare done and I make sure that there's
groceries to be able to cookwith, to get dirty dishes.
And I'm.
And so I was going throughthis list and it was interesting
because it really was just amoment of levity amongst friends.
It wasn't anything, you know,malicious in any way, but it was
an opening for me to have thisreally difficult conversation of
(27:58):
saying, you know what?
I can't do my full time joband do all of this without help.
Right.
And so when, when we start tolook at it and we actually start
to give ourselves credit forwhat we do.
Because I think sometimes aswomen, we think that we just have
(28:18):
to do it.
Right?
Yes.
Yeah.
I am the one who's responsiblefor making sure that my daughter
has shoes that fits her orthat, you know, the child has a present
to bring to the party.
Well, why is it my responsibility?
Right.
And so that's.
We.
We ask these questionsthroughout it and then we know we're
hoping that there's a few aha.
(28:39):
Moments of what this invisiblework actually looks like.
And so, yeah, so that's kindof one of the.
I'd say it's probably like forme, if I think about what do we hope
this book will really helppeople with, it's to help them see
themselves in the stories thatcan help them bring visibility to
it or opens those spaces forconversation to be able to share
(29:02):
it out a little bit.
Conversation's important andit can lead to change.
This is empowering and I thinkit's going to validate for women
themselves.
Hey, I really do provide oneheck of a role here.
Many, many of them.
And maybe I shouldn't have toclone myself.
(29:22):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Asking, you know, asking forthat assistance or saying that, you
know, you know, here's what wehave to do over the next two weeks
or a week or whatever thecase, however you plan out and say,
okay, who's taking what right?
And don't make assumptionsthat it's all on you.
Right.
And by doing that, we can, wecan maybe start to see some change.
(29:44):
And then in the workplace as well.
I want to make sure that we'retalking about the roles that happen
in the workplace as well.
And it's really interestingstories that we had.
And some of them go back tothis intersectionality that Janelle
talked about.
And one of them was aroundbeing in being someone who spoke
two languages and this ideathat, you know, there was you know,
(30:06):
a woman who was asked toalways be the interpreter, if you
will, but it was never, everacknowledged that while she was interpreting
or having to stay up late to,you know, to transcribe things into
different languages, that thatwas taking away from her role.
Right.
And so it was like she.
She was being asked to dosomething that was going to help
(30:27):
benefit the company and helpbenefit the organization, but it
was outside of the jobdescription, but it was necessary,
so then there was no value puton it.
Right.
And so those kinds of things,again, just have those conversations.
So basically, get to yourrightful place in the workplace.
(30:48):
This is empowering to women tosay, wait a minute, let's have a
conversation here.
I'm an interpreter.
I speak more than one language.
That's a job in and of itselfand a very, very important one, because
if you can't communicate, yougot nothing going on.
You have to be able to havesomeone who can convey that information.
It empowers women to get theproper compensation because a lot
(31:11):
of times they don't ask.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's interesting because a lotof research that over the last 20
years or so, when we look atthings that have changed in the workplace,
one of the big ones is thisvalue placed on culture.
Right.
That people need to.
And want to go to a placethat's enjoyable for them, that they
(31:32):
can feel like they belong.
And a lot of the work thatgoes into making a place really fun,
making it so that people feelvalued, is the things that we don't
necessarily have written in ajob description.
Yeah.
You know, whether it'smentoring, whether it's, you know,
hosting that, you know,luncheon to make sure you recognize
(31:56):
people for special events, allof these things.
And what we.
We found through the.
The work was that often theseresponsibilities that are essential
to the bottom line of anorganization because we know culture
is important.
They're.
They're not being compensatedand they're being put on to.
To women in the workplace.
And women do it withoutquestioning it, where I think a man
(32:19):
might say, hey, wait a minute,that's not part of my job.
Can we have a conversation here?
Right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So in a lot of ways, I thinkmaybe women are taught you just take
on more because that's who youare, and just don't say anything
about it.
Just do it.
Right.
Yeah.
(32:39):
Stay tuned for.
For more of women Roadwarriors coming up.
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(33:47):
Welcome back to Women Road.
Warriors with Shelly Johnsonand Kathy Tucaro.
Let's talk about something toooften overlooked, the invisible work
women do every day.
From managing households toraising children to carrying the
emotional load at work, thesecritical contributions keep everything
(34:09):
moving.
Yet they're not alwaysrecognized or rewarded.
Women do many things that aretremendously important, like caretaking
and nurturing that often nevereven get a simple thank you.
Yet these are essential rolesthat shape generations.
Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr.Doreen McCullough, both University
of South Florida scholars andPsychology Today columnists, are
(34:31):
changing that with their bookOur Invisible Work.
They uncover how this hiddenlabor drains women's time and energy
and why it's about time tovalue every contribution women make.
They hope their book willreinforce to women the valuable roles
they do play and help them tonot be afraid to ask for help when
they need it.
Dr. Janelle and Dr. Doreen,your book opens up a new perspective
(34:54):
for everybody.
I would think this is animportant book for both men and women.
It's an eye opener.
Absolutely.
You know, it was interesting.
I had an uncle that read thebook and it was interesting.
His response was, you know,after I read it, I sat back and I
thought to myself, wow, I havetwo children in their 20s and I don't
(35:19):
actually know how that happened.
And it realized that, you knowwhat, maybe my wife did a lot more
than I thought.
And it was, it was brilliantbecause it was someone I didn't think
would res.
The message would resonate with.
But he really took on thissense of like, awakening, awe, whatever
(35:41):
you want to call it, of, oh,my goodness.
I, I have been having a lot ofthings done around me to Give me
this family to provide forthis family.
And it was really a beautiful,beautiful situation, Shelley.
I love it.
So it's an awakening.
I like this.
That's a good way to describeit because, you know, I think human
(36:01):
beings have a tendency to doout of sight, out of mind.
And, hey, it just got done.
I don't know how, but it did,you know, and that devalues how it
was accomplished.
Cause there's a lot of workfor that end result.
And especially if you'reraising kids.
Oh, my.
Lots of twists, twists andturns along the way.
And it's not an easy road at all.
(36:23):
And the same in a company, allthe things that have to be done,
there's somebody who's doingthat, who you don't see.
And it's more than just whatthe man behind the curtain with Oz.
And Oz actually wasn't who wethought Oz was anyway.
It's people, like women, whoare doing all of these very important
(36:44):
tasks to make the world go round.
I love what you're doing.
Where can people find your book?
Absolutely, Shelley.
And.
And I think one more point atwhere to find it, Right?
First and foremost,Ingramsburg is number one.
And then Amazon as well.
If you go even to our website,www.wellsquest.com, people can find
(37:07):
those two links there on ourinvisible work.
And I think one thing to add,that is why we named it and we titled
it our.
Because each and everyindividual has some type of work
that they're doing.
Right, that others might notknow and be visible to us.
It was an invitation into this conversation.
It is.
And it's an awakening forwomen, too, you know, because they
(37:31):
just do things, I think, outof a force of habit and really don't
think about what they're doing.
This gives them a chance tosit back and say, you know, now I'm
pretty cool.
What I'm doing is pretty amazing.
And that validation has to bea positive outcome.
If you feel better aboutyourself, you're going to do it better,
(37:53):
you're going to feel good, andmaybe you're going to step up and
say, you know, I need helphere, because we're terrible as women
for asking for help.
And, you know, the otherthing, too, Shelley, if I can add
to that, is that we'reterrible at acknowledging it in others
as well.
Right?
So, you know, if I could call,you know, call in, you're here, listeners,
you know, to go out in thenext week and find one, you know,
(38:17):
maybe it's another woman orjust one person that they know they're
doing something that's reallynot getting recognized and acknowledge
that so that we can help liftone another up when we're doing this
as well.
So it's not just about.
Because we do.
We have to examine what we'redoing and we have to give ourselves
a little bit of, you know,room to.
To do a little less, you know,as well.
(38:38):
But.
But we also need to.
To help each other with this,you know, getting to this place where
we're not having to feel likewe have to be superheroes to get
things done.
All of us are always lookingfor our cape, and we're human beings,
after all, and we have to beable to take a step back and ask
(39:00):
for help and, yes, acknowledgeothers, you know, just walk up and
say, hey, you know, I thinkyou're pretty incredible.
What you're doing is justmassively awesome.
And somebody might be takenaback and say, I really hadn't thought
about it, you know?
Absolutely.
What is your book the title again?
It's Our Invisible Work, correct?
Yes.
(39:20):
And where can people find itagain, in case people didn't write
that down?
Yes, absolutely.
I'd first go to the website ww.wellsquest.
so that's W E L L S S Q UE-S-T.com and there's a website there.
Our Invisible Work is under there.
Or if you look on Amazon or onIngramSparks, you can find.
(39:42):
It's called Our Invisible Work.
How everyone everywhereexperiences it every day.
This is really important.
I love the conversation you'veopened up here.
Do you have a couple nuggetsfor ladies who are listening?
Maybe a way for them to not be invisible?
Yes.
I'd first start with.
(40:02):
Think back to.
Sometimes we start with ourroles and our identities.
Right.
What might they be?
And so we do this exercise inthis tool of first just having an
awareness of that.
Because again, Shelly, as yousaid, we just do things out of a
habit.
Okay.
We need to organize.
We've organized.
Right.
We need to problem solve.
We problem.
We went and got the list.
It's done.
And so sometimes thinkingabout write those things down, what
(40:23):
do you wholeheartedly identify with?
Maybe it's being that, youknow, I do want to help him be that
volunteer at my church or atmy children's school.
Right.
I am the social planner.
That's all right.
Embrace all those roles andidentities that you embrace.
Write those down and listen,there might be 10, there might be
20 of them.
Okay, maybe it is.
I'm daughter.
I highly identify as adaughter Right.
(40:44):
Or this granddaughter.
Because every Sunday I call mygranddaddy to say hello, you know,
and have a 20 minute conversation.
So write down first thoseroles and identities that are truly
meaningful to you.
Right.
And then from there, are thereany, are there anything that rolls
up into those roles andidentities that maybe someone isn't
recognizing the amount of workthat you've been doing for them?
(41:06):
Right.
Maybe you are the socialcoordinator at work and I love being
that.
But gosh, for 10 years now, noone else remembers to get the birthday
cards or get them signed.
And I'm constantly, now, nowI, I feel like a nag and people are
feeling that.
Right.
So that would be a task.
Okay.
That's being associated tosomething I highly identify with.
But then also think about thethird step would be how do you want
(41:28):
to be acknowledged for that?
Maybe it's a simple thank you.
Maybe it is someone elsetaking over the work or just acknowledging
the work that's being done.
I love this.
Definitely food for thought inthings that women need to do.
Because if we don't empowerourselves, we aren't going to empower
other women either.
This is wonderful what both ofyou are doing with this book and
(41:49):
I really appreciate you beingon the show.
Well, thank you very much forgiving us the space to have the conversation.
So we appreciate that as well.
Very much so.
This is a message thatdefinitely needs to be talked about
and conveyed to everybody.
That's how change is made andstarting conversations and actively
pursuing that kind of change.
(42:10):
Thank you so very much.
We appreciate you having usand this is wonderful to have a forum.
Thanks.
Yes, absolutely.
Thank you for sharing with our listeners.
We hope you've enjoyed thislatest episode.
And if you want to hear moreepisodes of Women Road warriors or
learn more about our show, besure to check out womenroadwarriors.com
(42:30):
and please follow us on social media.
And don't forget to subscribeto our podcast on our website.
We also have a selection ofpodcasts just for women.
There are a series of podcastsfrom different podcasters.
So if you're in the mood forwomen's podcasts, just click the
Power network tab onwomenroadwarriors.com youm'll have
a variety of shows to listento anytime you want to.
(42:52):
Podcasts Made for Women.
Women Road warriors is on allthe major podcast channels like Apple,
Spotify, Amazon, Audible,YouTube and others.
Check us out and please followus wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
You've been listening to WomenRoad warriors.
With Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
(43:15):
If you want to be a guest onthe show or have a topic.
Or feedback, email us@sjohnsonomenroadwarriors.com.
This is Women Road warriorswith Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
From the corporate office tothe cab of a truck, they're here
to inspire and empower womenin all professions.
So gear down, sit back and enjoy.
(00:23):
Welcome.
We're an award winning showdedicated to empowering women in
every profession throughinspiring stories and expert insights.
No topics off limits on ourshow, we power women on the road
to success with expert andcelebrity interviews and information
you need.
I'm Shelley and Kathy's on assignment.
(00:45):
Women make a tremendouscontribution to this world in the
workplace, as caregivers andas mothers raising our future generations.
Too often our contributionsare overlooked unless uncompensated
and underappreciated.
Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr.Doreen McCauley have researched this
extensively and want what wedo to be recognized.
(01:06):
They're the authors of ourInvisible work, an exploration of
what women do and how the lackof recognition suppresses and disempowers
women.
They're award winning scholarsat the University of South Florida.
Both of these ladies have acolumn in Psychology Today and they're
on a mission to stop thisinvalidation of women.
We have both of them on ourshow today to discuss this.
(01:28):
Welcome, Dr. Wells and Dr. McCully.
Thank you for being on the show.
And thank you, Shelly.
We appreciate the platform toreally bring voice and value to this.
We love what we're doing.
We're all about empoweringwomen and certainly your message
here is doing that.
I thought before we couldlaunch this conversation that's so
important, we could cover bothof your backgrounds and what motivates
(01:51):
you to pursue this valuable topic.
Yes, absolutely.
I'll start it, then I'll passit to Doreen.
Yeah, I'll start with, youknow, 2016, I think, was my awakening
when I first saw it.
I had a student in ourgraduate program.
Our students work three days aweek for one of our partners so they
can get real world experience.
(02:12):
And she came into my officevisibly upset and just talked about
some of the.
She called themmicroaggressions, I might say they
were macro aggressions thatshe was facing in the workplace and
she didn't feel seen.
And we sat there, we criedtogether, we had great conversations
and.
But I saw her and what we didafter hearing her and hearing the
(02:33):
stories and the experiencesthat she was having, you know, we
went back to thatorganization, we went to their HR
department.
We created some training, somelearning and development around these
things, and we made it visibleto everyone, not just her.
And so that's why we in thebook, specifically our invisible
work.
That's why we have parenthesesaround the.
In part because it was visibleto this student, but it had been
(02:54):
invisible to the others.
And so that was 2016.
But it made me reflectbecause, you know, I was raised by
a single mother.
She's a Latina single mother,and she's personally deaf.
And so I started to reflect.
I'm like, wow, this isn't justthe visibility and the invisibility.
Oh, how many things was shebeen doing that I didn't even recognize
until.
(03:14):
Until I was a mother and doingthat things or until I was in the
workplace and facing some ofthese things?
And so we.
We started to write, you know,and then I'm going to fast forward
a little bit to 2020, whenDoreen and I had to work more closely
together.
And at that time in 2020,obviously a pandemic had hit this
world, but Doreen and I wereworking on a new class, and so we
(03:38):
got to talking about some ofthese things, and I know a lot of
her, and I'll let her talkabout some of her research and identities
and roles in the workplace.
And so we started to bond onsome of those things.
And also what we were doingthat was invisible, servicing our
students at that time, youknow, a lot of emotional labor that
we were.
That we were doing as facultymembers, serving our students.
And so that brings us to 2020.
(03:58):
So then I'll pass it to do.
Okay, fantastic.
Thank you.
So, yeah, so I guess when Ifirst was kind of approached by Janelle,
we were working on a fewthings, and she shared the idea that
she had for this book, which Iabsolutely fell in love with.
And it really resonated withme because of my work as a researcher.
So, you know, when I wasresearching during my PhD program,
(04:22):
we talked a lot about identityand how does, you know, an individual
kind of show up in the workplace?
So that's something that'sbeen really important to me.
And one of the things thatalways struggled with was, you know,
why when, you know, womendecided to join the workplace or
in their struggle to join theworkplace over the years, has it
been that they've had tofollow this very masculine, you know,
(04:46):
drug path, Right.
And so this path that.
That men had been kind of following.
And so to me, it was like,wait, but we're.
We're not.
We are.
We're different in that, andwe have different responsibilities.
And in our, you know, quest todo that, you know, all of these other
things that we were doing, wejust kind of started to IGN more.
And.
And then they.
So they stayed invisible.
(05:07):
Right.
And so that's.
To me, when, when Janelleapproached me about this idea, it
clicked completely for me, youknow, and because actually one of
my colleagues did some reallygreat research on looking at, you
know, what was keepingindividuals from the C suite in.
It was in the accountingprofession specifically.
And a lot of it was aroundchoice, right around the.
(05:28):
The woman's choice to want todo something different.
So that to me was like, well,wait a second, maybe we have to redefine
and what that really means andwhy do we have to have this kind
of one idea of what thatsuccess is?
So it really kind of alignedin with what Janelle wanted to explore
around kind of all of thesethings that we do.
(05:49):
And then the other piece of itas well, as Janelle had alluded to,
is that we're both definitelypeople who go above and beyond in
the workplace, but we havenoticed over our careers that a lot
of times that is doing thework that is seen to be maybe be
a role that a female should be taking.
(06:11):
You know, I have been askedin, told that because of my gender
that I should be the one whotakes the notes and I need to be
the one who organizes the parties.
And I.
And so, you know, having hadthat experience, you know, there's
this need for us to be talkingabout how that's not right.
Right.
And how can we, you know, movepast that and start to put some light
(06:32):
on it.
So, so yeah, so that's kind ofhow we came together on this book.
And really the two of us havethis great passion to be able, allow
people to be appreciated forwhat they do and then maybe finding
ways to balance out the workthat we all do.
Amen to that.
Bravo for this.
Because it's not beingdiscussed enough.
And it's true, it does seemlike women do the jobs of a whole
(06:55):
lot more people.
We have to clone ourselves andwe don't get noticed and appreciated
as often as we should.
Why do you think the work ofwomen is still invisible in the 21st
century?
Ooh, isn't that the milliontrillion dollar question?
Maybe.
Shelley?
Yeah, I would say, you know,there's always going to be an invisible
(07:18):
economy.
We know that.
Like there is always a.
We're always going to needvolunteers, whether it's your association,
your church group, the schools.
However, what has happened andwhat has been happening with higher
level dual earning households,now that has changed, technology
has changed, women are goingto school and colleges and graduate
(07:39):
at a higher rate than ever before.
So those things have shifted.
Yet women still doing 75% ofthe domestic in care labor at home.
That hasn't shifted with the times?
Oh, it's true.
A woman gets done with workduring the day, then she's got a
whole lot more work before shegoes to bed that night.
(07:59):
Yes.
On average the, what the statsare saying is four and a half hours
more.
Wow.
I mean, and that adds up.
And then the weekend comes andif they want to spend quality time
with their children and theirhusband and, or their significant
other, you're going to be exhausted.
I mean, when do you have timefor sleep and your own self care,
you know?
Absolutely.
(08:20):
So why do you think all ofthis is?
Is it because women have beenreluctant to speak up or they just
are taught this is your lockin life?
You know, it's interestingbecause I think it has a lot to do
with the society that we, webelong to.
Right.
And so there isn't a lot ofvalue put on the, you know, being
(08:45):
in the home or taking care of,you know, our, our young or doing
those types of things.
And even if we just look atthe way that the salary disbursement
of different positions insociety are.
Right.
And so because of that therehas been want in our, I guess, I,
I think in our want to be successful.
(09:07):
We're, we're looking to thosepositions, we're looking to jobs
and we put value on them justby the actual paycheck they're getting
or the salary they're gettingor whatever the case.
And so because of that, Ithink that there's, you know, it's.
That's part of it, right?
So that's part of it.
So what, what people areaspiring to are these positions that
(09:27):
are going to maybe give themmore money, if that's what we're
really thinking as we define success.
Success.
But at the same time, I dothink you're, you're correct in that
women are still, or youngladies and girls are developed to
still have this much more of acaring responsibility for others
(09:48):
or to be concerned about the,you know, feelings of others even,
you know, if you look at thetoys that we have, right, you have,
you know, a typical boy's toy,maybe two trucks that can slam together
and no one's going to get hurt.
Whereas a typical girl's toymay be a doll or you know, some type
of form that if it hitstogether, then there's emotions involved.
And so from a very young agewe start to kind of understand things
(10:13):
from a very emotional point of view.
So we are concerned with that more.
Right.
And so because of that, thereis this, I think, this weight that
gets put on women still, thatit's their responsibility.
Yeah.
Well, when you think about it,traditionally, when you're talking
about money making and soforth, that was always outside the
home.
And when women didn't reallywork outside the home, they didn't
(10:35):
get reimbursed financially.
Exactly.
For caregiving and for raising children.
I remember my father saying,she who rocks the cradle rules the
world.
I mean, he had the most utmostrespect for motherhood.
And it's true.
I mean, we're shaping entiregenerations, and it's an important
role.
Caregiving, motherhood.
(10:57):
All of the above.
And even if it isn'tnecessarily a paid position, and
it shouldn't be based onmoney, the importance of something,
it should be recognized forwhat it is, because it's a tough
job.
We have to be psychics.
We have to have eyes in thebacks of our heads.
You know, you're always tryingto anticipate what your kid's going
(11:19):
to be doing, or if you'retaking, say, care of an elderly parent
or a family member, that's awhole new can of worms that people
are dealing with a lot today.
And it's usually that falls onthe women, too, you know.
And Shelly, you're making areally good point there, because
I think there's also somethingaround because, you know, like, it
shouldn't be money.
It shouldn't be.
There's this kind of anotherpiece of this puzzle to me is this
(11:42):
concept of like the zero sumgame, right.
Is so that if.
If you get something, I mustbe losing something.
Right.
And we don't think of how.
Well, no, how can we becreating something together, Right.
And so, you know, when Ithink, you know, if you think of
the very liberal feministapproach to trying to get kind of
(12:04):
significance of women insociety, it was very much that we
needed to enter the workplacebecause that's where money was and
that was where there was power.
That was the significance.
And so when you have that, though.
But it was like, well, ifsomeone gets in and someone else
tries to get in, you're takingit away from that someone who already
got in.
Right.
So there's only like one seatat the table for a woman, for example.
(12:28):
Right.
And so, you know, it createdthis competition between us as well.
And then that zero sum kind ofthen creates an almost a.
An animosity amongst women as well.
So I think that plays a partin it as well, because I Do feel
like, you know, there is thisstrife between, you know, the.
(12:48):
Because one of the things thatwe struggled with when we were actually
doing our original surveys waswe were asking for people, you know,
what?
Work is invisible.
And then some of the peoplethat we were asking to be involved,
they're like, well, I'm a stayat home mom, so I don't really work.
And so we had to really changeour phrasing around that because
(13:09):
it was this idea that there'sa strife between those that work
and those that don't.
You know what I mean?
And there's a value differenceto that, and that's what we have
to get past.
I don't know if you knew this,but I think it was back in the 1940s
in Washington, D.C. a lot offederal workers there were women
and men working.
If they got married, one ofthem had to quit because both of
them could not be on a federal payroll.
(13:31):
And of course, usually it wasa woman.
So a lot of people cohabitatedat that point because they didn't
want to lose that extra income.
They wanted to work.
And why should a woman have tosay, okay, I'm done?
And Shelley, that's also whyin the book.
And it was great, thisrevelation for us as a stay at home
mom pointed out, I was like,wait, we want to make sure we have
a shared vocabulary, you know,and so that's why we define invisible
(13:56):
work in there, you know, aslike any work emotionally, mentally,
physically done for someoneelse without acknowledgment of the
time, effort, or contribution.
So again, here we're notsaying the compensation, but how
do you acknowledge our work?
Sometimes I need that work.
It could be a simple thankyou, right?
Giving me the bandwidth, thespace to be able to do all these,
(14:16):
all the work that needs to be done.
Stay tuned for more of womenroad warriors coming up.
Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.
I have one question for you.
Do you want to stop worryingabout the irs?
If the answer is yes, thenlook no further.
(14:38):
I've been around for years.
I've helped countless peopleacross the country, and my success
rate speaks for itself.
So now you know where to findgood, honest help with your tax problems.
What are you waiting for?
If you owe more than $10,000to the IRS or haven't filed in years,
call me now at 888-557-4020 orgo to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free
consultation and get your life back.
(15:00):
Industry movement, TruckingMoves America Forward is telling
the story of the industry, oursafety champions, the women of trucking,
independent contractors, thenext generation of truckers, and
more.
Help us promote the best ofour industry.
Share your story and what youlove about trucking, Share images
of a moment you're proud ofand join us on social media.
(15:22):
Learn more@truckingmovesamerica.com.
Welcome back to Women Road.
Warriors with Shelly Johnsonand Kathy Tuccaro.
If you're enjoying thisinformative episode of Women Road
Warriors, I wanted to mentionKathy and I explore all kinds of
(15:45):
topics that will power you onthe road to success.
We feature a lot of expertinterviews, plus we feature celebrities
and women who've been trailblazers.
Please check out ourpodcast@womenroadwarriors.com and
click on our Episodes page.
We're also available whereveryou listen to podcasts on all the
major podcast channels likeSpotify, Apple, YouTube, Amazon,
(16:07):
Music, Audible, you name it.
Check us out and bookmark our podcast.
Also, don't forget to followus on social media.
We're on Twitter, Facebook,Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn, YouTube
and other sites and tellothers about us.
We want to help as many womenas possible.
Women really do power theworld in the workplace, at home,
(16:27):
and as caregivers shaping thenext generation.
Yet too often their work goesunseen, uncompensated, underappreciated
and unacknowledged.
Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr.Doreen McCully, award winning scholars
at the University of SouthFlorida and columnists for Psychology
Today have dug deep into thisissue in their book, Our Invisible
(16:48):
Work.
Through research and personalstories, they shine a light on the
hidden labor like organizing,caretaking and emotional support
that keeps workplaces andhomes running but rarely gets recognized.
They're on a mission to bringthis vital, undervalued work out
of the shadows and into thespotlight where it belongs.
Dr. Janelle and Dr. Doreen itseems like for years the importance
(17:11):
of the roles women play havebeen so under acknowledged and maybe
even demeaned.
Well, for instance, the term housewife.
Since when is a woman marriedto a house?
They're not.
Mm.
I mean, that seems kind ofdemeaning, doesn't it?
Oh, absolutely.
And there's a lot of work thatgoes into managing a home, planning,
(17:36):
budgeting, scheduling.
It's probably a multitude oftasks that if you really break it
down, it's a job and it's non stop.
It's, it's true.
You know, it's one of thosethings that I've had several students
over the years who have comeBack after having had children.
And so they're, you know,maybe they're up, upskilling a little
(17:56):
bit.
And then they're going intothe workplace and they're worried
about it and how, and it's,it's been this interesting, you know,
exercise to work with them, tokind of show them the skills that
they've developed when they do it.
And how do you put that into,you know, you know, refer, you know,
resume language because, youknow, and when you talk to them and
(18:17):
you say, okay, well, you, youorganize this schedule and then you've,
you know, you've, you're theone who kind of takes care of all
the, you know, arrangementsfor things or, or let's say that
you to, you know, have five orsix depending on how many kids are
in your household along withyourself and your spouse that you're
trying to manage.
You know, all of these, youknow, managing skills, project management
(18:39):
skills, time management skillsthat they have and that, so they
don't realize.
And so I, I tell you thisbecause I think it is really, you
know, if we look at the skillsrequired, the effort required, the
time, all of that.
It is, it is like a full time,well, it is a full time job.
It is.
And, and the skills are reallyimportant because you're having to
do all of these thingsactually transitions well into the
(19:02):
workplace because you have tobe a negotiator, you have to be a
manager, you have to be adiplomat, you have to be a planner.
All of these are definite skills.
And a lot of times, if womenopt to leave the workplace to raise
a family and they're penalizedwhen they come back in, it's kind
of like, well, what have youbeen doing for the past 15 years
or whatever it is, you know?
(19:22):
Absolutely.
Oh, yes, Shelley.
And they talk about that beingthe motherhood tax, but yet it's
the fatherhood promotion, youknow, because it'll say that women,
we have a 4% decrease in ourpay and men will get a 6% increase
for each child.
Yeah.
And women, the stats are theyhave less saved for retirement than
men.
So.
Wow.
It puts women in a veryprecarious spot.
(19:44):
And I do think our societydevalues the roles that women play
and they really do need to berecognized, which is why your book
is so important.
What are some of the thingsthat you folks cover in your book
too?
Create the awareness and maybethe appreciation to really validate
women to finally bring thisout into the sunshine and say, you
(20:06):
know, hey, women need this recognition.
Yeah.
One of them I think that mightnot be as visible is the emotional
labor.
You know, Doreen had eventalked about that when she was talking
about this nurturing mindset.
There's a lot of times we'reexpected, just as women in general,
to calm down, nurture, Right.
(20:26):
See those emotions, helpothers regulate their emotions.
And so we do.
So we wanted to make sure wehave an entire chapter that's just
dedicated to emotional laborin there.
Now, first we have to unpack it.
What is emotional labor?
What does that mean?
Yeah.
What is that?
Yeah.
Dorian, do you want to give adefinition of emotional labor?
Sure.
Absolutely.
So emotional labor is theenergy expended to be able to control
(20:52):
one's emotions in a given situation.
So if you think about, youknow, you talked about, you know,
sometimes mothers have to bethe negotiator, or, you know, wives
have to be the negotiator.
And in that situation, you maywant to be very angry, right.
Because you're negotiatingover something that you think maybe
(21:14):
you shouldn't be negotiating over.
Right.
And so there may be this, buthaving to keep your calm.
Right.
And to kind of express anemotion that's going to allow the
situation to move.
Move forward the way that itneeds to, not necessarily that one
that you're revealing inside.
So that suppression is anemotional labor.
(21:34):
So if I'm not able to kind ofexpress that exact emotion that I
want in a given situation,there is a exhaustion that comes
from that, and that's when wetalk about our emotional labor.
Just as an example, if peoplehaven't heard of the term that we
use to kind of help peoplerelate to it is this.
Think of someone who would bemaybe at the front desk of a hot.
(21:57):
You know, they have an irateclient that's come in.
Maybe they're very angry aboutsomething, and they, you know, something
has just happened and they'reyelling at the person.
And the person can't just yellback, Right.
They need to, especially in acustomer service situation, they
need to be calm, and they needto be able to respond in a way that
will allow the situation todiffuse and then be able to carry
(22:18):
forward.
Well, that idea is thatemotional labor.
So when you take on thatemotion, but you can't express it,
it.
So, you know, one of the ways,as a mother, this may happen is that,
you know, when your child getshurt, right.
You may want to hurt theperson back who hurt them.
Right.
But that's not going to helpthe child learn, and that's not going
(22:39):
to be, you know, somethingthat's Beneficial for the situation.
So you have to kind of contain that.
But that containment is work, right.
And it takes a lot for you todo it.
And so why we talk about it,there's a lot of reasons why we talk
about.
One of the main things in itis that we forget that emotional
labor is hard work.
(23:01):
Oh, heck, yes.
It's exhausting.
Right.
And we don't give it.
So.
So when you're exhausted atthe end of the day, when you said.
Because you had mentioned.
And it's so true.
By the time the weekend comes,I'm exhausted, I, you know.
Yes, I know maybe you'd loveto spend time with me, but I am,
I am spent.
But a lot of that being spentcomes from this idea that, you know,
I've had to kind of controlthe way that I'm reacting all week,
(23:25):
right.
And so now that I have, I haveto take the time to decompress from
that.
I need to realize that's astress on me and my body and I.
I need to rest.
Rest is so essential.
Everybody needs it.
Absolutely.
Yes, absolutely.
And I think women todayprobably get less rest than they
(23:46):
used to.
And of course, with ourinterconnected world, so often the
office is contacting you at 9o' clock at night, texting you, and
it's just non stop.
You're too.
You have no time for yourself,let alone the people you want to
be around, which is thequality of life you need to have.
What are some of the mainpoints of your book that address
(24:07):
some of this and how we canmake a change?
Well, Shelley, I want, I wantto point out one more chapter too,
before we get to thatquestion, because much as emotional
intelligence or emotionallabor is also this idea of our intersecting
roles and identity, you know,because sometimes, you know, think
about being in the workplaceand maybe it's before you've had
(24:27):
a child, but you've justinformed the workplace, you know,
that you are.
And you're gonna be takingparental leave.
Sometimes people will betrying to say, oh, it's only one
identity or one role.
That's not true.
We have to represent.
It's like a prism, right?
You see multiple colors, yousee multiple angles, and how do all
of those interact?
And I think sometimes we liketo say, oh, just because I'm a woman,
(24:48):
I'm being asked this or no, isthis because I'm a mother, I'm being
asked?
Or it's because of both.
They're all of the above, youknow, And I think sometimes we try
to separate them, which thendoes Minimize just the weight and
the gravity of theexpectations as well.
Absolutely.
Well said.
So then, Shelley, to get toyour other question about, you know,
kind of how.
What are some of the pointsthat we wanted to kind of bring forward
(25:09):
and really what we're hopingthis book serves as, as a beginning
of a conversation for a lot ofpeople, because one of the things
that we, you know, even fromour own experience and then from,
you know, speaking with othersand kind of understanding this more,
we realize that oftentimesthings get taken on as roles and
(25:30):
responsibilities by default.
Right.
But if we have a conversationaround, what does this actually look
like and do I need help or doI really need to be the person that
takes on this responsibility?
Once we start thoseconversations, we can actually then
(25:50):
make a change.
And so just as an example, youknow, I think one of the things that
happened to a lot of familiesduring COVID right, Was this realization
by everyone in the family kindof who's doing what, right?
And.
And who's responsible for what.
And when you had time whereyou were probably maybe spending
a lot more time under the sameroof as people, you start to see
(26:14):
what people do on a regularbasis and having that, you know,
conversation and saying, okay,well, why are these responsibilities
falling on me?
Right.
Then you can start to see,okay, well, can we be giving some
of these tasks away?
And so I'll use a personalstory if you'll.
(26:34):
You feel, bear with me, shall we?
Sure.
This is a time where myhusband and we had some friends and
we were chatting and.
And he had just been, youknow, through the conversation of
the night, had talked abouthow he had done some laundry, and
then he had done some dishesand he would done some vacuuming.
But it was just differentstories that kind of, you know, weaved
in through the evening.
And then, so someone kind ofbrought this all together, and they
(26:54):
said, well, wait a second, youknow, and my husband's name.
And they said, if you do thelaundry and the dishes and you do
the.
The vacuuming, well, what doesDoreen do around the house?
Right?
Or what does Doreen do?
Right?
And so, and so his responsewas not one I liked, right?
Because he was, like, notquite sure.
(27:14):
And just kind of joke becausewe had, you know, just kind of laughing
or whatever.
We were kind of amongstfriends, right?
So, but this.
This, this.
This hit me.
And so I had a conversationwith him later.
It's like, you know, we.
We need to talk about this, right?
And so we did, right?
And I wrote out, you know,well, I make sure the appointments
are done and I, I make surethat the birthday parties are organized
(27:36):
and I make sure that the giftsare done and I make sure that there's
groceries to be able to cookwith, to get dirty dishes.
And I'm.
And so I was going throughthis list and it was interesting
because it really was just amoment of levity amongst friends.
It wasn't anything, you know,malicious in any way, but it was
an opening for me to have thisreally difficult conversation of
(27:58):
saying, you know what?
I can't do my full time joband do all of this without help.
Right.
And so when, when we start tolook at it and we actually start
to give ourselves credit forwhat we do.
Because I think sometimes aswomen, we think that we just have
(28:18):
to do it.
Right?
Yes.
Yeah.
I am the one who's responsiblefor making sure that my daughter
has shoes that fits her orthat, you know, the child has a present
to bring to the party.
Well, why is it my responsibility?
Right.
And so that's.
We.
We ask these questionsthroughout it and then we know we're
hoping that there's a few aha.
(28:39):
Moments of what this invisiblework actually looks like.
And so, yeah, so that's kindof one of the.
I'd say it's probably like forme, if I think about what do we hope
this book will really helppeople with, it's to help them see
themselves in the stories thatcan help them bring visibility to
it or opens those spaces forconversation to be able to share
(29:02):
it out a little bit.
Conversation's important andit can lead to change.
This is empowering and I thinkit's going to validate for women
themselves.
Hey, I really do provide oneheck of a role here.
Many, many of them.
And maybe I shouldn't have toclone myself.
(29:22):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Asking, you know, asking forthat assistance or saying that, you
know, you know, here's what wehave to do over the next two weeks
or a week or whatever thecase, however you plan out and say,
okay, who's taking what right?
And don't make assumptionsthat it's all on you.
Right.
And by doing that, we can, wecan maybe start to see some change.
(29:44):
And then in the workplace as well.
I want to make sure that we'retalking about the roles that happen
in the workplace as well.
And it's really interestingstories that we had.
And some of them go back tothis intersectionality that Janelle
talked about.
And one of them was aroundbeing in being someone who spoke
two languages and this ideathat, you know, there was you know,
(30:06):
a woman who was asked toalways be the interpreter, if you
will, but it was never, everacknowledged that while she was interpreting
or having to stay up late to,you know, to transcribe things into
different languages, that thatwas taking away from her role.
Right.
And so it was like she.
She was being asked to dosomething that was going to help
(30:27):
benefit the company and helpbenefit the organization, but it
was outside of the jobdescription, but it was necessary,
so then there was no value puton it.
Right.
And so those kinds of things,again, just have those conversations.
So basically, get to yourrightful place in the workplace.
(30:48):
This is empowering to women tosay, wait a minute, let's have a
conversation here.
I'm an interpreter.
I speak more than one language.
That's a job in and of itselfand a very, very important one, because
if you can't communicate, yougot nothing going on.
You have to be able to havesomeone who can convey that information.
It empowers women to get theproper compensation because a lot
(31:11):
of times they don't ask.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
It's interesting because a lotof research that over the last 20
years or so, when we look atthings that have changed in the workplace,
one of the big ones is thisvalue placed on culture.
Right.
That people need to.
And want to go to a placethat's enjoyable for them, that they
(31:32):
can feel like they belong.
And a lot of the work thatgoes into making a place really fun,
making it so that people feelvalued, is the things that we don't
necessarily have written in ajob description.
Yeah.
You know, whether it'smentoring, whether it's, you know,
hosting that, you know,luncheon to make sure you recognize
(31:56):
people for special events, allof these things.
And what we.
We found through the.
The work was that often theseresponsibilities that are essential
to the bottom line of anorganization because we know culture
is important.
They're.
They're not being compensatedand they're being put on to.
To women in the workplace.
And women do it withoutquestioning it, where I think a man
(32:19):
might say, hey, wait a minute,that's not part of my job.
Can we have a conversation here?
Right.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So in a lot of ways, I thinkmaybe women are taught you just take
on more because that's who youare, and just don't say anything
about it.
Just do it.
Right.
Yeah.
(32:39):
Stay tuned for.
For more of women Roadwarriors coming up.
Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.
I have one question for you.
Do you want to stop worryingabout the irs?
If the answer is yes, thenlook, no.
Further, I've been around for years.
I've helped countless peopleacross the country, and my success
rate speaks for itself.
(33:00):
So now you know where to findgood, honest help with your tax problems.
What are you waiting for?
If you owe more than $10,000to the IRS or haven't filed in years,
call me now at 888-557-4020 orgo to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free
consultation and get your life back.
Industry Movement TruckingMoves America Forward is telling
(33:21):
the story of the industry.
Our safety champions, thewomen of trucking, independent contractors,
the next generation oftruckers, and more.
Help us promote the best ofour industry.
Share your story and what youlove about trucking.
Share images of a momentyou're proud of and join us on social
media.
Learn more@truckingmovesamerica.com.
(33:47):
Welcome back to Women Road.
Warriors with Shelly Johnsonand Kathy Tucaro.
Let's talk about something toooften overlooked, the invisible work
women do every day.
From managing households toraising children to carrying the
emotional load at work, thesecritical contributions keep everything
(34:09):
moving.
Yet they're not alwaysrecognized or rewarded.
Women do many things that aretremendously important, like caretaking
and nurturing that often nevereven get a simple thank you.
Yet these are essential rolesthat shape generations.
Dr. Janelle Wells and Dr.Doreen McCullough, both University
of South Florida scholars andPsychology Today columnists, are
(34:31):
changing that with their bookOur Invisible Work.
They uncover how this hiddenlabor drains women's time and energy
and why it's about time tovalue every contribution women make.
They hope their book willreinforce to women the valuable roles
they do play and help them tonot be afraid to ask for help when
they need it.
Dr. Janelle and Dr. Doreen,your book opens up a new perspective
(34:54):
for everybody.
I would think this is animportant book for both men and women.
It's an eye opener.
Absolutely.
You know, it was interesting.
I had an uncle that read thebook and it was interesting.
His response was, you know,after I read it, I sat back and I
thought to myself, wow, I havetwo children in their 20s and I don't
(35:19):
actually know how that happened.
And it realized that, you knowwhat, maybe my wife did a lot more
than I thought.
And it was, it was brilliantbecause it was someone I didn't think
would res.
The message would resonate with.
But he really took on thissense of like, awakening, awe, whatever
(35:41):
you want to call it, of, oh,my goodness.
I, I have been having a lot ofthings done around me to Give me
this family to provide forthis family.
And it was really a beautiful,beautiful situation, Shelley.
I love it.
So it's an awakening.
I like this.
That's a good way to describeit because, you know, I think human
(36:01):
beings have a tendency to doout of sight, out of mind.
And, hey, it just got done.
I don't know how, but it did,you know, and that devalues how it
was accomplished.
Cause there's a lot of workfor that end result.
And especially if you'reraising kids.
Oh, my.
Lots of twists, twists andturns along the way.
And it's not an easy road at all.
(36:23):
And the same in a company, allthe things that have to be done,
there's somebody who's doingthat, who you don't see.
And it's more than just whatthe man behind the curtain with Oz.
And Oz actually wasn't who wethought Oz was anyway.
It's people, like women, whoare doing all of these very important
(36:44):
tasks to make the world go round.
I love what you're doing.
Where can people find your book?
Absolutely, Shelley.
And.
And I think one more point atwhere to find it, Right?
First and foremost,Ingramsburg is number one.
And then Amazon as well.
If you go even to our website,www.wellsquest.com, people can find
(37:07):
those two links there on ourinvisible work.
And I think one thing to add,that is why we named it and we titled
it our.
Because each and everyindividual has some type of work
that they're doing.
Right, that others might notknow and be visible to us.
It was an invitation into this conversation.
It is.
And it's an awakening forwomen, too, you know, because they
(37:31):
just do things, I think, outof a force of habit and really don't
think about what they're doing.
This gives them a chance tosit back and say, you know, now I'm
pretty cool.
What I'm doing is pretty amazing.
And that validation has to bea positive outcome.
If you feel better aboutyourself, you're going to do it better,
(37:53):
you're going to feel good, andmaybe you're going to step up and
say, you know, I need helphere, because we're terrible as women
for asking for help.
And, you know, the otherthing, too, Shelley, if I can add
to that, is that we'reterrible at acknowledging it in others
as well.
Right?
So, you know, if I could call,you know, call in, you're here, listeners,
you know, to go out in thenext week and find one, you know,
(38:17):
maybe it's another woman orjust one person that they know they're
doing something that's reallynot getting recognized and acknowledge
that so that we can help liftone another up when we're doing this
as well.
So it's not just about.
Because we do.
We have to examine what we'redoing and we have to give ourselves
a little bit of, you know,room to.
To do a little less, you know,as well.
(38:38):
But.
But we also need to.
To help each other with this,you know, getting to this place where
we're not having to feel likewe have to be superheroes to get
things done.
All of us are always lookingfor our cape, and we're human beings,
after all, and we have to beable to take a step back and ask
(39:00):
for help and, yes, acknowledgeothers, you know, just walk up and
say, hey, you know, I thinkyou're pretty incredible.
What you're doing is justmassively awesome.
And somebody might be takenaback and say, I really hadn't thought
about it, you know?
Absolutely.
What is your book the title again?
It's Our Invisible Work, correct?
Yes.
(39:20):
And where can people find itagain, in case people didn't write
that down?
Yes, absolutely.
I'd first go to the website ww.wellsquest.
so that's W E L L S S Q UE-S-T.com and there's a website there.
Our Invisible Work is under there.
Or if you look on Amazon or onIngramSparks, you can find.
(39:42):
It's called Our Invisible Work.
How everyone everywhereexperiences it every day.
This is really important.
I love the conversation you'veopened up here.
Do you have a couple nuggetsfor ladies who are listening?
Maybe a way for them to not be invisible?
Yes.
I'd first start with.
(40:02):
Think back to.
Sometimes we start with ourroles and our identities.
Right.
What might they be?
And so we do this exercise inthis tool of first just having an
awareness of that.
Because again, Shelly, as yousaid, we just do things out of a
habit.
Okay.
We need to organize.
We've organized.
Right.
We need to problem solve.
We problem.
We went and got the list.
It's done.
And so sometimes thinkingabout write those things down, what
(40:23):
do you wholeheartedly identify with?
Maybe it's being that, youknow, I do want to help him be that
volunteer at my church or atmy children's school.
Right.
I am the social planner.
That's all right.
Embrace all those roles andidentities that you embrace.
Write those down and listen,there might be 10, there might be
20 of them.
Okay, maybe it is.
I'm daughter.
I highly identify as adaughter Right.
(40:44):
Or this granddaughter.
Because every Sunday I call mygranddaddy to say hello, you know,
and have a 20 minute conversation.
So write down first thoseroles and identities that are truly
meaningful to you.
Right.
And then from there, are thereany, are there anything that rolls
up into those roles andidentities that maybe someone isn't
recognizing the amount of workthat you've been doing for them?
(41:06):
Right.
Maybe you are the socialcoordinator at work and I love being
that.
But gosh, for 10 years now, noone else remembers to get the birthday
cards or get them signed.
And I'm constantly, now, nowI, I feel like a nag and people are
feeling that.
Right.
So that would be a task.
Okay.
That's being associated tosomething I highly identify with.
But then also think about thethird step would be how do you want
(41:28):
to be acknowledged for that?
Maybe it's a simple thank you.
Maybe it is someone elsetaking over the work or just acknowledging
the work that's being done.
I love this.
Definitely food for thought inthings that women need to do.
Because if we don't empowerourselves, we aren't going to empower
other women either.
This is wonderful what both ofyou are doing with this book and
(41:49):
I really appreciate you beingon the show.
Well, thank you very much forgiving us the space to have the conversation.
So we appreciate that as well.
Very much so.
This is a message thatdefinitely needs to be talked about
and conveyed to everybody.
That's how change is made andstarting conversations and actively
pursuing that kind of change.
(42:10):
Thank you so very much.
We appreciate you having usand this is wonderful to have a forum.
Thanks.
Yes, absolutely.
Thank you for sharing with our listeners.
We hope you've enjoyed thislatest episode.
And if you want to hear moreepisodes of Women Road warriors or
learn more about our show, besure to check out womenroadwarriors.com
(42:30):
and please follow us on social media.
And don't forget to subscribeto our podcast on our website.
We also have a selection ofpodcasts just for women.
There are a series of podcastsfrom different podcasters.
So if you're in the mood forwomen's podcasts, just click the
Power network tab onwomenroadwarriors.com youm'll have
a variety of shows to listento anytime you want to.
(42:52):
Podcasts Made for Women.
Women Road warriors is on allthe major podcast channels like Apple,
Spotify, Amazon, Audible,YouTube and others.
Check us out and please followus wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
You've been listening to WomenRoad warriors.
With Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
(43:15):
If you want to be a guest onthe show or have a topic.
Or feedback, email us@sjohnsonomenroadwarriors.com.
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