November 11, 2025 • 51 mins
Breaking barriers isn’t just about shattering glass ceilings — it’s about proving your strength, resilience, and leadership in spaces where women are often underestimated. Gina Osborn is a trailblazer who did exactly that. As one of the few women to rise through the ranks of the FBI, she became an Assistant Special Agent in Charge, taking on organized crime, cyberterrorism, and national security threats. From handling Cold War espionage cases to leading the FBI’s Cybercrime and Counterterrorism Division in Los Angeles, Gina’s story is one of grit and fearless decision-making under pressure. Today, she’s a TEDx presenter and host of the Making Maverick Moves podcast, where she empowers professionals to lead with confidence through chaos, crisis, and change. Her inspiring journey has been featured by Fox 11 News and the LA Times. Tune into this episode of Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Tuccaro as they tap into Gina’s insight on how every crisis can become an opportunity.
https://womenroadwarriors.com/
https://womenspowernetwork.net
women in leadership, cybersecurity, cyberterrorism ops, breaking barriers, empowerment, crisis management, FBI agent, female trailblazer, lead fearlessly, women empowerment, female empowerment, podcast interview, Gina Osborn, Making Maverick Moves, Shelley Johnson, Shelley M. Johnson, Kathy Tuccaro, Women Road Warriors
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Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
This is Women Road warriorswith Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
From the corporate office tothe cab of a truck, they're here
to inspire and empower womenin all professions.
So gear down, sit back and enjoy.
(00:23):
Welcome.
We're an award winning showdinner dedicated to empowering women
in every profession throughinspiring stories and expert insights.
No topics off limits.
On our show, we power women onthe road to success with expert and
celebrity interviews andinformation you need.
I'm Shelley.
And I'm Kathy.
(00:44):
Breaking barriers is somethingwomen have been doing for a very
long time.
But it's more than bustingthrough that glass ceiling.
It's proving yourself to yourmale counterparts and all your colleagues.
Gina Osborne is a classicexample of a woman whose done just
that.
She trailblazed a path throughthe world of cyber security and rose
to the top in a high stakesmale dominated profession.
(01:06):
She became an FBI assistantspecial agent in charge with over
20 years taking down organizedcrime, fighting cyber terrorism and
safeguarding national security.
She worked espionage casesduring the Cold War and led the FBI
cybercrime andcounterterrorism operation in Los
Angeles.
Gina is now a TEDx presenterand host of the Making Maverick Moves
(01:28):
podcast where she inspiresprofessionals to break barriers with
resilience and fearlessdecision making.
Gina's compelling story hasbeen featured in major media outlets
including Fox 11 News and theLA Times.
She's here to tell us how toturn chaos into opportunity.
Welcome Gina.
Thank you for being on the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
(01:50):
We're so, so, so excited.
Oh yeah.
Oh my goodness.
Can you tell?
Oh, your career, Gina, hasbeen, I'm sure lots of twists and
turns, stuff that people don'tnormally encounter.
You led quite the life.
How did you get started in allof this?
I mean, could you give us asummary maybe of your background
and what inspired you?
(02:10):
Gosh, you know, I always startwith the fact that when I was a teenager
I always dreamed of being aninternational woman of intrigue.
And it back in the day whenthe Soviet Union was still in place
and the CIA and the, and theKGB and the GRU and you know, I mean,
just everything was just outthere and the whole spy scene really,
(02:36):
really fascinated me.
So my dream was to become aCIA operative and I knew I had to
have a four year degree and Iwas in my second year of college.
I had run out of money and outof nowhere a young man came up to
me and started telling meabout the Army's counterintelligence
program.
This was like back in 1986.
And the next day, I went downto the recruiter's office and I signed
(03:02):
up.
And that was pretty much thestart of my career.
Wow.
And after you got through thatprogram, where did you go from there?
I mean, was it a progression,or did you kind of get sidetracked?
I imagine your life's had alot of twists and turns out.
Yeah.
Well, after I made it throughbasic training, which was quite an
interesting experience for agirl from Orange County, California,
(03:24):
I wound up going to advancedindividual training at Fort Huachuca,
Arizona.
And then I was very, veryfortunate to be assigned in Europe.
And the first two and a halfyears I was there, I was assigned
in Belgium.
And then the last three and ahalf years, I was assigned to a specialized
team that investigated thehighest profile espionage cases in
(03:45):
the European theater.
So I was on the road forprobably nine months out of the year
chasing spies.
So cool.
Yeah.
So you were chasing spies.
Like, when we think of spies,we think of James Bond, that sort
of thing.
What were these people like?
Well, I can tell you about oneof the cases because this individual
(04:06):
wound up getting arrestedright in front of me.
That was a story in and of itself.
Well, there's a specialist inBaumholder, Germany, by the name
of Albert Chambilay.
And it was during desertShoot, Desert Storm time.
And he was trying to sellsecrets to a Middle Eastern entity.
And so we investigated him, wedid surveillance on him, and it turned
(04:30):
out it was time for him to get arrested.
Because the case agent, whowas an amazing mentor of mine, her
name was Connie Huff, shecreated the sting operation in a
hotel room where he thought hewas meeting with the bad guys.
And he wound up signing hislife away for $3,000.
And.
And they told me I was acrossthe street from his house because
(04:52):
I had been watching that for,like, the last week.
And they told me that he wasgoing to be arrested as he entered
that military housingcommunity compound.
And I was so disappointed.
I was looking in the distanceto see maybe I'd see some lights
or hear some sirens orsomething that showed this spy being
arrested.
Right.
The dream of a lifetime.
(05:12):
And then the next thing youknow, he just drove up in front of
this house, and they arrestedhim there.
And he eventually got 34 yearsin prison.
Wow.
Wow.
So did you have to impersonatepeople, basically take on an alias
to do this sort of thing?
Well, the majority of the workon that team, it was undercover work.
(05:34):
In fact, the CIA gave me adisguise kit and that was equipped
with.
Let's see scar tissue that Icould create scars if I needed.
I had wigs.
And my absolute favorite,favorite thing was a pillow.
So not only did that help mewhen I was trying to, you know, change
my look, but when I was outon, like a 72 hour in a row operation,
(05:57):
it was really good to kind ofuse to sleep in the back of the car.
So.
So I absolutely love it.
You are the coolest lady Ithink we've ever talked to.
And we talked to some reallycool ladies.
Yeah, well, it's not every dayyou can go.
Before I went into the army, Iwas a cocktail waitress at a comedy
club.
And that's why I always saythat the military is such a tremendous,
(06:22):
tremendous opportunity becausethey trained me, you know, within
six months, they trained mehow to become a counterintelligence
agent.
And so I went from being acocktail waitress to being a counterintelligence
agency over like a six orseven month period.
And just to have thatopportunity to be in Europe during
the end of the Cold War.
And if you were.
(06:43):
If you recall, for those ofyou who may recall, for those of
you who are older, as old as Iam, you would know that the 1980s
was the decade of the spy.
It was really fascinating.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, the show the Americansis set in the 1980s.
Yes, for sure, for sure.
Yeah, it was great.
And if you would have told me,I would have been driving around
(07:04):
Europe in Mercedes and BMWsand Audis while I was in the army
as an army specialist or anarmy sergeant, I never would have
believed you.
So these were cars that yougot to drive yourself?
Yeah, they were assigned toour team.
And so we drove all acrossEurope doing our operations.
So it was really a fascinating time.
(07:25):
So you kind of got to livelike the rich and famous in what
you'd see in the movies insome ways, kind of.
But the hours were a littlebit different than the rich and famous.
I know I've slept a lot ofhours in a car and I would wake up
in the morning and go to thelocal Esso station and have the breakfast
of champions, which was aFanta and a Snickers bar.
(07:46):
So, yeah, it wasn't asglamorous as I'm making it sound.
There was a lot of workinvolved, but looking back on it,
I don't remember all of thebad parts.
I only remember the good.
Damn.
It's a good thing.
Usually people remember thebad parts and forget the good.
Yeah.
So you led the FBI, cybercrimeand counterterrorism operation In
Los Angeles, after you did allof that, that's another huge transition
(08:10):
because obviously in the 80sand 90s, I don't think cybercrime
was really anything that wastalked about.
Yeah.
So I did that later in mycareer when I became an executive.
So right out of the academy, Iwas given a civil rights investigation
where Thai girls were beingbrought into the United States and
forced into prostitution.
And so I was assigned to theSanta Ana office in Orange County,
(08:33):
California.
And nearby was the LittleSaigon district.
And, and that housed thelargest population of Vietnamese
people outside of Vietnam.
So I looked at my case file, Isaw an article where one of the detectives
from the Westminster PoliceDepartment had just rescued two Thai
girls.
And so I thought, okay, thisis a guy I need to be working with.
(08:55):
And so, long story short, ifyou Listen to my TEDx talk, you can
hear the whole story.
But long story short, I woundup on this organized crime task force
at the Westminster Police Department.
And we worked Asian organizedcrime cases, everything stemming
from loan sharking to murderfor hire.
We did a lot of differenttypes of cases there.
(09:17):
And yeah, and we were able toarrest a lot of really bad people
who are targeting their own communities.
So.
So that was, that was reallyinteresting for a six foot blonde
to be working in Little sideon, but, but yeah, we did it.
Your life would never beboring, that's for sure.
Yeah, it was, it was.
I mean, I look back and, and Ijust feel so fortunate that I had
(09:38):
such an opportunity.
But I also made myopportunities as well.
Like how do you just sit backon the couch after living a life
like that?
It's like, oh my God.
Yeah, the problem, I'm notsitting on the couch, you know.
Right.
You're like, can't do that.
But.
Oh, that's just amazing.
Yeah, well, I've always lovedto tell stories.
I've always taken writingclasses and so I'm working on some
(10:00):
projects now.
I do a lot of public speakingkeynote speaking where I speak about
leadership, but I kind ofinfuse some of these stories in so,
so people can really get afull picture of to how to lead through
chaos, crisis and change forone thing, or rise to the top in
male dominated fields for another.
But yeah, it's, it's been alot of fun and really the podcast
(10:23):
kind of allows me to continuemy service because that's something
I've always been a service orperson, so.
So yeah, so now I'm reallyhaving fun.
Stay tuned for more of womenRoad warriors coming up.
Dan Michael, the tax doctorHere, I have one question for you.
(10:45):
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(11:10):
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Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson and
Kathy Tucaro.
(11:51):
If you're enjoying thisinformative episode of Women Road
Warriors, I wanted to mentionKathy and I explore all kinds of
topics that will power you onthe road to success.
We feature a lot of expertinterviews, plus we feature celebrities
and women who've been trailblazers.
Please check out ourpodcast@womenroadwarriors.com and
click on our Episodes page.
(12:11):
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(12:32):
We want to help as many womenas possible.
We've been talking with formerFBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge
Gina Osborne, a truetrailblazer who's been breaking barriers
and leading with courage insome of the toughest arenas imaginable.
From taking downcybercriminals to confronting Cold
War spies, Gina's story provesthat leadership isn't about titles,
(12:54):
it's about tenacity.
She's the host of the podcastMaking Maverick Moves.
Let's dive back in and hearhow she continues to help people
make those maverick moves andthrive under pressure.
Gina, I would imagine youcould write some really good novels
with all the experiencesyou've had.
Thank you, Shelley.
(13:15):
Well, you've experiencedthings firsthand and certainly, gosh,
you could even be an advisoron a Film because a lot of the stuff
that they have in the moviesis probably not too realistic.
You could say, wait a minute,that's not the way it's done.
But this is really cool.
Why don't you try this?
You know.
Yeah, you know what?
I don't think people wouldreally believe what really happened
back in the day, because thereare some stories for sure, but.
(13:38):
Yeah.
Do you want me to tell you oneof my favorite stories?
Sure, yeah, please do.
So my husband and I were onthis team together.
We were a young, young married couple.
And while we were working theAlbert Sambilay case, he was going
into Belgium from Germany.
He lived in Germany and thenhe would cross into Belgium.
But as a team, for whateverreason, we didn't have authority
(14:00):
to follow him into Belgium.
And so whenever he went intoBelgium, someone would have to get
out of their car, go up to thetop of this hill by the bor and just
sit on the hill and watch forwhen he came back.
And then the surveillance teamwould pick him up once he came back
into Germany.
Well, when my ex husband, withmy ex husband now, when he got out
(14:21):
of the car, it happened to bein front of or not too far from a
car of polizei, the police,and they released their dog, the
border dog, on him, and chased him.
And for about two hours Ithought he had been eaten by border
guard dogs.
Luckily he had not.
(14:42):
But if I write that novel, Ithink he's going to end that way
by being eaten by border dogs.
Okay, I'm kidding.
But yeah, but those type ofthings, you know, you never would
have believed.
But yeah, it was veryharrowing at the, you know, for two
hours wondering if I was evergoing to see him alive again.
I bet.
(15:02):
Well, I imagine that you hadmore than one close call in those
kind of situations.
You definitely, if you werefound out, I would imagine your life
would be in danger.
Danger.
Yeah, yeah, it was quite, itwas quite an experience.
But the interesting thing is,so after I retired, I did some creative
things for a couple of yearsand then I became the chief safety
and security officer for La Metro.
(15:23):
And it was a time after, rightafter the pandemic in 2022, they
hadn't done fair enforcementor code of conduct enforcement for
about two years during the pandemic.
So, you know, it wasinteresting that during my time there,
I spent two years at La Metroand I think that was the most violence
that I had seen in my ent.
Their 28 year career duringthe two years that I was there.
(15:47):
So that in and of itself is,is a story, but, you know, through
all of these, theseexperiences, I've been able to help
people, you know, deal withchaos, crisis and change, of course,
but then also resilience and,and, and really the, the message
is that, you know, everythingthat happens is supposed to happen,
(16:08):
and if you're prepared, youcan make your maverick move.
And when I talk about maverickmoves on my podcast, I talk about
how you kind of get up to thewall and you're afraid or you're
confused or you'reintimidated, yet you go through anyway.
Right.
So those are the type ofstories that I like to tell of people
who decide to move forwardeven when they are afraid to find
(16:31):
that breakthrough success.
We deal with those things in life.
And that's definitelysomething that people can benefit
from.
Well, when you were talkingabout working in Los Angeles at that
point, that was when somebodyhijacked an LA Metro bus.
Right?
Right.
Yeah.
And two.
And within like a, probably afour or five month period, they had
(16:52):
two hijackings.
The first one was when the buswas hijacked by an individual who
had a BB gun and he definitelyhad the operator, and the operator
wound up hitting several carsand crashing into the side of the
Ritz Carlton Hotel.
But the one after that, thathappened, I think in the summer last
(17:15):
year, was when one of thepassengers was shot and another one
was injured as he or she, Idon't know, was.
Was fleeing out of the bus.
So, yeah, they've had somereally harrowing things go on, but
hopefully it's going to.
It's getting better.
Yeah.
And you had some serioustwists and turns there.
(17:35):
I mean, you kind of ran into abrick wall.
Weren't you unjustlyterminated after raising some concerns
about how officers werepatrolling the LA Metro system?
So, yes.
So LA Metro had $200 millioncontracts with the LAPD, the LA Sheriff's
Department, and the Long BeachPolice Department.
And I was unhappy with theperformance of these agencies.
(18:00):
Well, after a few times thatone particular month, I think it
was In February of 2024, I waslooking for the Los Angeles Sheriff's
Department, who was supposedto be at one of the stations in Santa
Monica, and they weren't therefor probably the third or fourth
time in a row.
And so I learned later thatday that they were hosting a golf
(18:23):
tournament for a Baker toVegas run that they were going to
do.
And so I wound up reaching outto the Inspector general to tell
her about it.
And then about a week later, Iwas fired.
Wow.
Wow.
And with your background, Imean, that had to have been such
a major blow because certainlywhat you brought to the table, you
(18:48):
would think that they wouldvalue you.
I mean, people run into this, though.
They run into these unfair knocks.
The school of hard knocks, ifyou will, in life.
And to be able to justpersevere is hard to do.
Yes, well, when it.
I was very shocked because theway that it happened, I was in my
office, and then the nextthing you know, the HR chief comes
(19:11):
in, I'm terminated, I'm walked out.
And, you know, I'm past my staff.
And it was.
It was a shock, to say the least.
Right.
But I. I was professionalabout it.
And I know from my pastexperiences that with every crisis
comes an opportunity.
(19:32):
So I sat for two days, very,very quietly, because I wanted to
know, okay, there's gotta besome purpose behind this.
And the next thing you know,Rachel Urenga from the LA Times reached
out to me.
She had found out that I wasno longer with Metro, and she was
writing a story on it.
That's when I figured, okay, Ineed to get an attorney, because
(19:55):
this isn't right.
But it's right after.
And it was in the newspaper,of course.
But right after that, the hugesurge of CR happened.
Shootings and stabbings andall sorts of crazy things were happening.
And the media was calling meto talk about what is happening at
Metro.
So for the two years I wasthere, I was trying to get Metro
(20:15):
their own police departmentbecause obviously the contract policing
was not effective.
And so at the end of the day,Metro got about over $100 million
worth of additional resources.
And also they were approvedunanimously by the board to get their
own police department.
And I like to think that, youknow, me going public with the things
(20:36):
that I saw helped toward that.
So if I could do anything tohelp the frontline employees or the
riders, that was what I wantedto do.
So it had its purpose, for sure.
Bravo for that.
Well, sometimes you have tocome out and be an advocate to make
the change.
And a lot of times, gettingout in the media is exactly what's
needed, because I think a lotof times things are just kept on
(20:59):
the DL, if you will, and oncethey're brought out into the sunshine,
change has to happen.
Yes, I agree.
And really, that kind of goesto show because I always talk about,
you know, be very carefulabout the hill you choose to die
on.
Right?
Yes.
There are consequences withchoosing that hill that you're willing
to die on.
And so many times when I'mmentoring Young people.
(21:20):
You know, these days it seemslike everybody's willing to die on
any hill.
But, you know, there.
There are definitely consequences.
But I'll tell you, you know,it really changed my life in such
a positive way.
And I really look at it as agift because without that, I wouldn't
have created this amazingplatform with my podcast to be able
(21:43):
to really show people that,hey, these are the things that happened.
But when you find that hillthat you're willing to die on, when
you want to make your maverickmove, let me help you, and let me
introduce you to some peoplewho can tell you how they did it.
And the most fascinating thingwas the fact that I had interviewed.
(22:05):
My first guest was the LA CityFire chief, and I interviewed her
before the LA fires.
So I interviewed her inNovember of last year.
So fast forward the fires happened.
She wound up going on the newsbecause this was her hill that she
was willing to die on.
When I spoke to her before thefire, I asked her, what maverick
move have you made?
(22:26):
And she said, well, I'm makingone right now because I don't have
the resources to do my job.
So fast forward to February.
She was fired two days beforemy podcast episode was launched or
my podcast was launched.
And so, you know, justwatching what she went through, I
mean, it really resonated withme because I had the same experience.
I think we were both, youknow, politically incorrect or what
(22:51):
have you.
But.
But, yeah, but, you know, Imean, as a result of what she did,
she wound up getting $103million, an increase in her budget
on the following June whileshe was sitting demoted, you know,
working as, I think, anassistant chief in one of the stations.
So really, those are theheroes, you know, the people who
are willing to die on thathome for the greater good.
(23:14):
It's tough to do.
You're really taking apersonal risk.
And I think a lot of peoplemight want to do this sort of thing,
but a maverick move doesn'tnecessarily have to be something
like that.
What would you define as amaverick move?
Well, you know, I meet a lotof people through my podcast, and
there are people who just feellike they lack confidence.
(23:37):
I had someone, a wonderful,lovely person, come and talk to me
and tell me that, you know,she wishes she could be more confident.
So just flexing that muscleand stepping out of that box, little
by little by little, that'show you're going to grow your confidence.
And so it could be as.
As small as taking your powerback in a situation at work, or it
(24:03):
could be as big as going onthe news and talking about how your
fire department wasn't funded properly.
So really what we talk about,we go from soup to nuts on the show.
But really the whole purposebehind it is to give people some
guidance because I thinkeverybody kind of wants to make that
(24:24):
maverick move.
Everybody wishes they can dosomething spectacular.
And so we'd like to helppeople on that journey step by step
to get them where they want to be.
Stay tuned for more of WomenRoad warriors coming up.
(24:46):
Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.
I have one question for you.
Do you want to stop worryingabout the irs?
If the answer is yes, thenlook no further.
Further.
I've been around for years.
I've helped countless peopleacross the country and my success
rate speaks for itself.
So now you know where to findgood, honest help with your tax problems.
What are you waiting for?
If you owe more than $10,000to the IRS or haven't filed in years,
(25:07):
call me now at 888-557-4020 orgo to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free
consultation and get your life back.
Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson and
Kathy Tucaro.
If you've ever wondered whatit takes to thrive in high pressure,
(25:31):
male dominated arenas, ourguest today knows firsthand.
Gina Osborne climbed the ranksof the FBI to become an assistant
special agent in charge, arare achievement for any woman.
She led major investigationsinto organized crime, cyber terrorism
and national security threats,tackling everything from cold War
espionage to modern day cyber attacks.
(25:53):
But Gina's impact didn't stopwhen she left the Bureau.
She's now a TEDx speaker,leadership coach, and host of the
Making Maverick Moves podcast,empowering others to navigate chaos
and lead with confidence.
Her story will inspire you torewrite your own definition of fearless
leadership.
Gina, your maverick moves havebeen huge.
(26:14):
You're a terrific example for everybody.
And Kathy, you said you hadsome thoughts of what maverick moves
are to you.
You know, I think thatmaverick moves, I, I love that term,
by the way.
It really is people, because Ideal with a lot of women in shelters
and recovery homes and, youknow, kids that are people that are
(26:37):
struggling and people whenthey look at me, because I have quite
the history of changing mylife, going from drunk and homeless
to driving the biggestequipment in the world.
And I had a maverick move.
I had a point where I had topivot with purpose and say, this
stops here and I'm going to change.
Well, like I tell women inrecovery or in the shelters, I says
(27:01):
it doesn't have to be like, Ididn't get there overnight, like,
you know, one step thatbrought me to the next, into the
next, to the next.
So whatever it is that.
It doesn't have to be someginormous move.
It can be just, you know,what, walking out the door from your
abusive ex.
That's a maverick move.
Like as.
Now that you can say it, that terminology.
(27:22):
It doesn't have to besomething major like operating the
biggest truck in the world.
It can just be whatever youfeel is big in your life is the same.
Right?
And, and that is what's goingto give you, you power.
That is what's going to giveyou confidence to take another, to
do another move, to takeanother step.
And the more steps you take,the bigger, the more belief you have
(27:43):
in yourself.
Because when you look back,you're like, hey, I just did this.
Hey.
Oh, dang.
Look what I just did.
You know, and that's how Ithink success keeps, keeps its momentum.
That is a remarkable story,Kathy, and that is so true, because
how many maverick moves didyou make to get to that point?
So if we just kind of make it,you know, step by step, one step
(28:05):
after the other, then, thenyou can get there.
But I'll tell you, I had neverbeen fired before, and that really
was liberating for me in away, because I think that was probably.
I mean.
Yeah, a lot of it stings.
It must have stung.
Oh, yeah, no, no, no, for sure.
But, you know, it's funny, Ididn't feel shame at all because
(28:27):
when I started talking aboutit publicly, you know, it was, it
was, the purpose was, youknow, there were bus operators who
were afraid to go to work.
You know, like 79 people diedon the metro system the year before.
So change definitely needed tobe made.
And, and so when you're, youknow, when you're out there, sometimes
(28:48):
you choose a hill you'rewilling, you may be willing to die
on, but sometimes that hillchooses you.
And when it does, you know,you're, you're, you have to react
one way or the other.
So it was super liberating tobe able to get to that point because
now I can be unapologeticallyfearless because I've been through
that and I know what it's like.
(29:08):
And I know I got back up and Iknow I continued down the road to
make my dreams come true.
Been there, done that, got theT shirt.
Yeah.
And I think, yeah, people areafraid of the risk and certainly
people have been unfairly terminated.
It Seems like that happens ina lot of companies today.
There isn't the value of loyalty.
(29:29):
Gone are the days where peoplecan start a job at a company and
retire and get the watch atthe, what, the end of the 30 years
or whatever people have.
There's a lot of transition.
There's so much chaos,constant change in our world.
And I think that maybesometimes people are just kind of
frozen in place because theydon't know what move to make.
(29:49):
Yes, you're right.
The biggest killer ofinnovation is the status quo.
And that's, you know, that'swhat we have to choose.
Are we.
You know, a lot of times whenyou're working in an environment
that does not empower you,that does not value you, that, you
know, all you're trying to dois get through the day.
How much magic happens when aworkforce is just trying to get through
(30:15):
the day?
So when I do my keynotespeaking, you know, I talk about
leadership and how importantit is to empower your people, because
that's when the magic happens.
When the innovation start,when you allow people to be creative
in the workplace, they canmake their own decisions and they're
not being micromanaged.
It's just I love to watchpeople grow in that way because once
(30:38):
they start, you know, puttingtheir own sweat and ideas into the
greater good, everybody'sbetter for it.
Not everybody's a good leader.
That is true.
Wow.
10:4 to that.
That is true.
We definitely need betterleaders out there.
And, you know, people alwaysask me, you know, what, what's your
(31:00):
favorite leadership book?
And it's like, I don't readleadership books because, you know,
I think I've learned over timewhat works and what doesn't work.
And it's all about surroundingyourself with greatness.
You know, I always have hadthe template to my success has always
been based on surroundingmyself with really, really strong,
(31:21):
amazing, innovative, creative people.
And, you know, when you'rejust trying to keep your racehorses
on the, on the track, youknow, that's when you're in a really,
really good place, because ifyou just let them run, then they're
going to run really fast andreally long.
But if you beat yourracehorses, you're not going to get
(31:42):
anything out of them.
That's true.
And you want to encourage the innovation.
You want to encourage thatspirit, that winning spirit, which
I think a lot of companies andorganizations have to kind of think
about.
Some people are absolutecontrol freaks, and they want to
micromanage everything.
(32:02):
And if you want an innovatorand somebody who's going to have
that star power, they can't be micromanaged.
And a leader also has to beable to take maybe a contrary opinion.
If you're surrounded with yesmen, yes women, that's not necessarily
the best scenario either.
Yeah, no, I agree.
And people can go onto my LinkedIn.
(32:24):
Gina L. Osborne.
I've written several articlesand I had a series of called Leadership
Lessons from Horrible Bosses.
And micromanagement was thefirst part of it because that kills
people.
And I know how I feel when I'm micromanaged.
It's like, okay, I'm justgoing to call it in because if I
(32:45):
can't, if I'm not, my freethought is not appreciated here.
But you know, when you have anentire workforce full of, you know,
a leader that's filled withfear, that's a micromanager that
has to be in control all the time.
Yeah.
It's just ordinary.
It is.
I've never liked to be micromanaged.
(33:05):
I couldn't stand it as a kid.
I was a little rebel.
Shelly, you still are justsaying, right?
True, true.
Yeah.
I mean, you have to be able towork as a team, certainly, but you
don't forget the individual.
And I think so many of us feellike we're being gobbled up with
all the technology andeverything else.
(33:27):
The individuality and thecommunication is lacking.
Yes, yes, for sure.
And I think, you know, chaosis kind of the name of the game when
you look at how we're packingour kids schedules, right?
You know, we take Julie overhere and Sammy over here and we've,
you know, we're packing theseschedules so that we're kind of creating
(33:48):
that environment of chaos.
And so what I like to share isthat, you know, we are what we tolerate.
So any little tolerations thatwe have in our life, and it could
be as small as boxes stackedup in the garage, that every time
we drive into the garage, wesee those boxes and then we get that
(34:10):
heaviness feeling, oh my gosh,I got to unpack those boxes.
And it happens every time wepull into the garage as opposed to,
okay, well, if I unpack theboxes, every time I pull into the
garage, I'm going to feel thatfreedom that comes with, I don't
have to look at that anymore.
And that kind of adds space.
So what I tell people is,okay, write down all of the things
(34:33):
that you tolerate, from thelittle itty bitty things all the
way to the major relationshipsituations that, you know, nobody
wants to have to deal with at all.
And if you find, you know,just schedule time to eliminate these
tolerations.
Okay, I'm going to unpack the boxes.
I'm going to fix the faucet inthe sink.
I'm going to clean out thelaundry room or what have you.
(34:56):
And then once you findyourself doing these things, I mean,
just kind of gauge how doesthat feel.
And the less chaos you have inyour life, the more you're going
to be able to see around thecorners to prevent bigger chaos.
But the name of the game whenit comes to chaos is it doesn't take
much for chaos to turn into a cris.
(35:17):
If it's left unchecked.
So if we want to kind of havea calmer life where we're not running
and running and running, weneed to prioritize getting rid of
what we're tolerating, becausethat's going to add a lot more room
and a lot more peace in our lives.
Amen.
Yep.
I think we have a tendency totolerate too much and.
(35:37):
And certainly, yes, there isthe chaos.
Actually, you know, I've beensingle for six years.
Six years now.
I think it's because I don'ttolerate it anymore.
Right.
Yeah.
Do you feel a lot calmer and happier?
Oh, my God, yes.
And you know what the bestpart is?
Is that I don't let it stew.
I know exactly what I want,what I don't want, and if it ain't.
If it ain't meeting up to par.
(35:58):
See ya.
You know, it's just.
I just won't do it.
I don't have time.
Yeah, it's those boundaries.
Those are healthy boundariesthat you've created.
So you don't.
Oh, God.
Actually, you know, speakingof boundaries, it took me till I
was the age of 40 and inrecovery, for the first time, I actually
had to ask my counselor whatthat word mean.
I had no idea.
(36:19):
I was such a doormat my entire life.
Used to letting everybodyconduct my life for me, make my choices
for me.
That when it came toboundaries, I'm like, huh, What?
Like, it took me a long timeto actually be.
To be able to say no and nottry to explain my way out of it.
Like, just say no.
Right.
And that is the biggestfreedom I've ever had in my life.
(36:41):
True.
Because you.
It's self respect.
Yep.
Yeah.
Stay tuned for more of womenroad warriors coming up.
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media.
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Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson at Kathleen.
We're back with Gina Osborne,a true pioneer who traded in her
(38:08):
FBI badge for a microphone anda mission.
As a former assistant specialagent in charge, Gina spent years
dismantling organized crimerings, investigating espionage, and
leading elite cyber crime teams.
Now she's turning thoseexperiences into life lessons and
helping professionalstransform fear into focus and adversity
into action.
(38:28):
Through her Making MaverickMoves podcast and leadership work,
Gina proves that courage isn'tjust about being fearless, it's about
showing up.
Anyway, we've been reallyenjoying her insight as well as hearing
about her incredible journey.
Gina in our previous segment,we were talking about boundaries
and why they're healthy to have.
And it's hard sometimes, morethan sometimes, for women to say
(38:50):
no.
I don't think men have as harda time doing that.
Yeah, but why do you thinkthat is?
Because we're taught to bepeople pleasers and be polite for
sure.
Kathy, why do you think wecan't say no?
You know, that's a tough one.
I think that the being the,in, like, being such caregivers are,
(39:13):
you know, in, in our DNA andthe selflessness.
So it's constantly,constantly, you know, just doing
all sorts of things and youautomatically, I think people don't
even realize that they're,they're taking on taking on taking
on until it's too late, till.
They'Re burned out like I did.
You know, it took me till 40to realize, you know, once I lost
(39:34):
everything and I'm sittingthere with no more nursing career,
no more nothing, and I'm like,huh, you know, so busy taking care
of everybody else that Icompletely forgot, like, that I even
existed.
So I couldn't say no.
I didn't know how to say no.
No.
I was born with theexpectation as a very young child
that you never said no becauseyou'd get a beating if you did.
(39:55):
So I guess it can be a lot of reasons.
Was there a moment that you'relike, I'm not going to do this anymore?
Yeah.
I had a moment where a pivotwith purpose is when I was standing
drunk and homeless, havinglost my nursing career.
I was standing beside a guynamed Toothless Joe.
And it was like I saw soclear, I can't even explain it.
Like I look around and it's asif a whole cloud had shattered into
(40:20):
a billion pieces.
And I saw so crystal clearthat I had such a bigger purpose
than what I was living.
And I look at that guy and Isaid, this is not my life.
I just made that pivot and Iturned around and I walked straight
to the hospital and I detoxfor two weeks.
Then I went to recovery andthen I took my next step and next
step and next step.
Right, so that was my maverick moment.
(40:41):
Yeah, yeah, it was.
That is true courage right there.
Yes.
And how do people find the courage?
I love this.
Leading through chaos, crisisand change.
That takes courage.
Yeah, but I think that goesalong with, you know, building those
muscles of putting yourself ina situation where you don't feel,
you may not feel comfortabledoing the TEDx talk.
(41:05):
I had always been afraid ofpublic speaking.
I had always felt uncomfortable.
I had avoided it throughout myentire 28 year law enforcement career.
And it wasn't until after Iretired that I started to, you know,
go out there and, and I tookacting classes and I did all of these
things that was, that wouldmake me feel less nervous and, and
(41:26):
more comfortable to, to beable to tell my stories.
And I think it all culminateculminated with my TEDx talk.
Because, you know, I mean, itwas like that was the real deal and
I wasn't nervous at all.
And I think, you know, butwhat did that take?
It took me being uncomfortableseveral times.
Many, many times going onstage when I didn't want to do it
(41:49):
and you know, second guessingmyself the entire time I was on stage
and maybe kicking myself afterI got off thinking I could have done
better.
But, but yeah, but if you kindof step outside of that box a little
bit and it doesn't have to bea lot, just a little bit each time,
that's how the courage rose.
Yeah, it's like coming fromsuch an abusive background when I.
(42:09):
The first day I'm at work,standing beside the biggest truck
in the world.
And when I say that, I'm notsure if you know what these mining
trucks are.
The tires are 14ft tall.
It's two and a half stories toget to the cab where you sit.
When the box is up, it's fivestories higher.
I drive a building.
And so that first day, comingfrom all this low self esteem and
all these people telling mywhole life, you're useless, you're
(42:31):
stupid, you'll never amount tonothing, blah blah, blah.
And I'm standing beside thistire, looking up at the cab, thinking,
oh my God, you want to talkabout, step out of your comfort zone.
And it took me self talking myway every single day, sometimes multiple
times a day, to get throughit, to start believing.
And that like you said,courage grows.
(42:53):
The more you do it, the moreit becomes more of a natural foundation
for you.
Right?
And all you have to do is belief.
That's all, that's all it takes.
You gotta try, you gotta giveit a shot.
Had I not even given a shot, Imean, I'd still be probably drinking
my days away, you know what I mean?
But I just had enough.
And I think basically you haveto make a decision is the bottom
(43:16):
line.
Yeah, that's true.
And if you don't make adecision, that's a decision.
So it's better to actuallyhave a.
Good way of looking at it.
Yeah, it's better to activelymake a decision.
Because if you don't make adecision, you're really not in control,
are you?
You know, it's.
You're just letting life happen.
And that's not why we're here.
And Gina, you have a lot ofgreat messages.
How to rise to the top in aman's world and making the maverick
(43:39):
moves.
Do you think all women canrise to the top in a man's world?
Well, first off, I don'tbelieve it's a man's world.
And I think that goes back towhen I was a little girl.
I think I was like 7 years old.
My dad left, my mom was leftwith my sister and me.
And you know, she had been ahairdresser before she got married.
(44:02):
And then she was home for 13years as a housewife.
And she decided instead of,you know, going out because she was
desperate, she wasn't gettingalimony, she had to pay for these
kids.
Right.
And she decided to go intoreal estate, you know, a commission
based field.
And this is in 1973 or so.
Right.
(44:22):
So back in the day where Ididn't even think women were even
allowed to get loans on their own.
She woke us up every Saturday,and we had to go out and pass out
her literature.
And in her first year, and thehouses she was selling were $35,000
a piece, right.
And she sold over a milliondollars in property her first year.
(44:43):
Wow.
I just had her on my podcast,and I asked her, I said, what made
you think that you could do that?
And she said, I just believedit, and it is so powerful.
But I never grew up in ahousehold where we talked about a
glass ceiling.
I didn't learn about a glassceiling until I was in basic training.
(45:04):
I had been pulled out of mybunker in the middle of the night
to paint the drill sergeant's office.
And we're painting, and one ofthe other privates was talking about
this glass ceiling.
And I'm like, no, that doesn'tapply to me.
Just because it was never areality for me.
Imposter syndrome.
You know, I'm not.
That doesn't apply to me.
So I think that's kind of mymechanism of dealing with things
is that when everyone'ssitting around complaining about
(45:28):
how things are so unfair orhow, you know, if only this would
happen, or, you know, poor mebecause I'm a woman or what have
you, I was out working and Iwas out making maverick moves.
And so I think that if weallow it to apply to us, it's gonna
slow us down.
If we don't allow it to applyto us, we're gonna ignore it and
(45:51):
not allow it to be an obstaclefor us.
Good way of thinking.
You had a really great examplewith your mom, too.
So you could see that thisreally can work.
You could take a risk, and youcan rise above this and really kick
some butt.
Oh, yeah.
Which is what you've beendoing all your life.
And your podcast, makingmaverick moves, you feature a lot
of really cool peopletrailblazing figures who've made
(46:13):
bold rule bending actions, andthey shatter the barriers.
Where do people find your podcast?
So you can find me everywhere.
So Apple, Spotify, anywhereyou get your podcasts, and you can
also find me on TikTok and YouTube.
We videotape the interviews,and so they're out on YouTube, so
(46:37):
you can watch the entire interviews.
But we've got some reallyamazing guests.
Guests this season.
And yeah, I'm super excited toshare all of this great information
that I've learned and that myguests share with our audience.
Very cool.
Well, your background has beenamazing, and we've just gotten a
(46:59):
snippet.
I'm such a badass.
Yeah, you really are.
You're badass, Gina.
This is so cool.
Well, you know, listening toKathy's story, she's pretty much
a badass.
And you too, Shelly, I think.
Thank you.
You road warriors are prettyamazing yourselves.
Yeah, we're trying to empowerwomen because really, when you empower
(47:19):
women, you empower the wholeworld because they raise families.
So you're empowering futuregenerations, you know, for sure.
I totally agree that.
Agree with that.
And the fact that you all arelisted so high on the top of empowerment,
you know, for women, you'redoing great work and you're helping
so many people.
So thank you for that.
(47:39):
Well, thank you, Gina.
Yeah.
Kathy and I are both superexcited about it.
I love.
I know she does, too.
Kathy, you love helping people.
And that's about, you know.
Yeah.
You know, and I.
And I say when I.
Because this happened withToothless Joe back in 2011, and I
always say, man, if onlyToothless Joe could see me now.
Like, holy crap, there you go.
(48:02):
And the thing with that wholestory is that the miracle was right
around the corner.
And I would if somebody wouldhave told me the same thing, oh,
you know, in 10 years, you'llbe doing this, this, and this.
I'd be like, yeah, writer.
Are you high?
Like, you know, I laughed himup the sidewalk.
So I tell that to women everywhere.
Just believe and do it.
Take that step.
Just believe.
I love that.
Yes.
For sure.
(48:22):
And it was.
It always is right around the corner.
But, you know, I think we kindof stay where we're at by.
By not believing orcomplaining or feeling sorry for
ourselves.
But, you know, when we tendour minds to other things, the butterfly
will come instead on our shoulder.
So go do some good.
Whenever you're waiting forsomething to happen or you're working
(48:43):
towards something to happenand you're frustrated that it hasn't
happened yet, focus on otherthings, and it'll be, like you said,
right around the corner.
I love that.
Gina, where do people find you?
My website is gina l.osborne.com.
please connect with me onLinkedIn at Gina L. Osborne.
So, yeah, everything is GinaL. Osborne, and I'm very, very happy
(49:04):
to help anyone who is on theirleadership journey.
Thank you so much for being onour show.
This has been terrific.
My pleasure.
Thank you, ladies.
Gina Osborne's insights arepowerful, and she's changing women's
futures one person at a timewith a powerful perspective that
with every crisis comes an opportunity.
(49:24):
And you can lead fearlesslywith a maverick mindset that requires
the ability to make bolddecisions with resilience and navigate
uncertainty certainty.
It takes practice, but it canbe done.
We've been very fortunate totap into just some of Gina's wisdom.
If you want to learn more, besure to check out gina's website@ginalosborne.com
(49:49):
Osborne is spelled O S B O Rn. Again, that's ginalosborne.com
as well as her podcast MakingMaverick Moves.
You won't regret it.
We hope you've enjoyed thislatest episode, and if you want to
hear more episodes of WomenRoad warriors or learn more about
our show, be sure to check outwomenroadwarriors.com and please
(50:12):
follow us on social media.
And don't forget to subscribeto our podcast on our website.
We also have a selection ofpodcasts Just for Women.
They're a series of podcastsfrom different podcasters, so if
you're in the mood for women'spodcasts, just click the Power network
tab on womenroadwarriors.comyoum'll have a variety of shows to
(50:33):
listen to anytime you want to.
Podcasts Made for Women WomenRoad warriors is on all the major
podcast channels like Apple,Spotify, Amazon, Audible, YouTube,
and others.
Check us out and please followus wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
You've been listening to Worldwelcome to Women Road warriors with
(50:54):
Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
If you want to be a guest onthe show or have a topic or feedback,
email us@sjohnsonomenroadwarriors.com.
This is Women Road warriorswith Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
From the corporate office tothe cab of a truck, they're here
to inspire and empower womenin all professions.
So gear down, sit back and enjoy.
(00:23):
Welcome.
We're an award winning showdinner dedicated to empowering women
in every profession throughinspiring stories and expert insights.
No topics off limits.
On our show, we power women onthe road to success with expert and
celebrity interviews andinformation you need.
I'm Shelley.
And I'm Kathy.
(00:44):
Breaking barriers is somethingwomen have been doing for a very
long time.
But it's more than bustingthrough that glass ceiling.
It's proving yourself to yourmale counterparts and all your colleagues.
Gina Osborne is a classicexample of a woman whose done just
that.
She trailblazed a path throughthe world of cyber security and rose
to the top in a high stakesmale dominated profession.
(01:06):
She became an FBI assistantspecial agent in charge with over
20 years taking down organizedcrime, fighting cyber terrorism and
safeguarding national security.
She worked espionage casesduring the Cold War and led the FBI
cybercrime andcounterterrorism operation in Los
Angeles.
Gina is now a TEDx presenterand host of the Making Maverick Moves
(01:28):
podcast where she inspiresprofessionals to break barriers with
resilience and fearlessdecision making.
Gina's compelling story hasbeen featured in major media outlets
including Fox 11 News and theLA Times.
She's here to tell us how toturn chaos into opportunity.
Welcome Gina.
Thank you for being on the show.
Thank you so much for having me.
(01:50):
We're so, so, so excited.
Oh yeah.
Oh my goodness.
Can you tell?
Oh, your career, Gina, hasbeen, I'm sure lots of twists and
turns, stuff that people don'tnormally encounter.
You led quite the life.
How did you get started in allof this?
I mean, could you give us asummary maybe of your background
and what inspired you?
(02:10):
Gosh, you know, I always startwith the fact that when I was a teenager
I always dreamed of being aninternational woman of intrigue.
And it back in the day whenthe Soviet Union was still in place
and the CIA and the, and theKGB and the GRU and you know, I mean,
just everything was just outthere and the whole spy scene really,
(02:36):
really fascinated me.
So my dream was to become aCIA operative and I knew I had to
have a four year degree and Iwas in my second year of college.
I had run out of money and outof nowhere a young man came up to
me and started telling meabout the Army's counterintelligence
program.
This was like back in 1986.
And the next day, I went downto the recruiter's office and I signed
(03:02):
up.
And that was pretty much thestart of my career.
Wow.
And after you got through thatprogram, where did you go from there?
I mean, was it a progression,or did you kind of get sidetracked?
I imagine your life's had alot of twists and turns out.
Yeah.
Well, after I made it throughbasic training, which was quite an
interesting experience for agirl from Orange County, California,
(03:24):
I wound up going to advancedindividual training at Fort Huachuca,
Arizona.
And then I was very, veryfortunate to be assigned in Europe.
And the first two and a halfyears I was there, I was assigned
in Belgium.
And then the last three and ahalf years, I was assigned to a specialized
team that investigated thehighest profile espionage cases in
(03:45):
the European theater.
So I was on the road forprobably nine months out of the year
chasing spies.
So cool.
Yeah.
So you were chasing spies.
Like, when we think of spies,we think of James Bond, that sort
of thing.
What were these people like?
Well, I can tell you about oneof the cases because this individual
(04:06):
wound up getting arrestedright in front of me.
That was a story in and of itself.
Well, there's a specialist inBaumholder, Germany, by the name
of Albert Chambilay.
And it was during desertShoot, Desert Storm time.
And he was trying to sellsecrets to a Middle Eastern entity.
And so we investigated him, wedid surveillance on him, and it turned
(04:30):
out it was time for him to get arrested.
Because the case agent, whowas an amazing mentor of mine, her
name was Connie Huff, shecreated the sting operation in a
hotel room where he thought hewas meeting with the bad guys.
And he wound up signing hislife away for $3,000.
And.
And they told me I was acrossthe street from his house because
(04:52):
I had been watching that for,like, the last week.
And they told me that he wasgoing to be arrested as he entered
that military housingcommunity compound.
And I was so disappointed.
I was looking in the distanceto see maybe I'd see some lights
or hear some sirens orsomething that showed this spy being
arrested.
Right.
The dream of a lifetime.
(05:12):
And then the next thing youknow, he just drove up in front of
this house, and they arrestedhim there.
And he eventually got 34 yearsin prison.
Wow.
Wow.
So did you have to impersonatepeople, basically take on an alias
to do this sort of thing?
Well, the majority of the workon that team, it was undercover work.
(05:34):
In fact, the CIA gave me adisguise kit and that was equipped
with.
Let's see scar tissue that Icould create scars if I needed.
I had wigs.
And my absolute favorite,favorite thing was a pillow.
So not only did that help mewhen I was trying to, you know, change
my look, but when I was outon, like a 72 hour in a row operation,
(05:57):
it was really good to kind ofuse to sleep in the back of the car.
So.
So I absolutely love it.
You are the coolest lady Ithink we've ever talked to.
And we talked to some reallycool ladies.
Yeah, well, it's not every dayyou can go.
Before I went into the army, Iwas a cocktail waitress at a comedy
club.
And that's why I always saythat the military is such a tremendous,
(06:22):
tremendous opportunity becausethey trained me, you know, within
six months, they trained mehow to become a counterintelligence
agent.
And so I went from being acocktail waitress to being a counterintelligence
agency over like a six orseven month period.
And just to have thatopportunity to be in Europe during
the end of the Cold War.
And if you were.
(06:43):
If you recall, for those ofyou who may recall, for those of
you who are older, as old as Iam, you would know that the 1980s
was the decade of the spy.
It was really fascinating.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, the show the Americansis set in the 1980s.
Yes, for sure, for sure.
Yeah, it was great.
And if you would have told me,I would have been driving around
(07:04):
Europe in Mercedes and BMWsand Audis while I was in the army
as an army specialist or anarmy sergeant, I never would have
believed you.
So these were cars that yougot to drive yourself?
Yeah, they were assigned toour team.
And so we drove all acrossEurope doing our operations.
So it was really a fascinating time.
(07:25):
So you kind of got to livelike the rich and famous in what
you'd see in the movies insome ways, kind of.
But the hours were a littlebit different than the rich and famous.
I know I've slept a lot ofhours in a car and I would wake up
in the morning and go to thelocal Esso station and have the breakfast
of champions, which was aFanta and a Snickers bar.
(07:46):
So, yeah, it wasn't asglamorous as I'm making it sound.
There was a lot of workinvolved, but looking back on it,
I don't remember all of thebad parts.
I only remember the good.
Damn.
It's a good thing.
Usually people remember thebad parts and forget the good.
Yeah.
So you led the FBI, cybercrimeand counterterrorism operation In
Los Angeles, after you did allof that, that's another huge transition
(08:10):
because obviously in the 80sand 90s, I don't think cybercrime
was really anything that wastalked about.
Yeah.
So I did that later in mycareer when I became an executive.
So right out of the academy, Iwas given a civil rights investigation
where Thai girls were beingbrought into the United States and
forced into prostitution.
And so I was assigned to theSanta Ana office in Orange County,
(08:33):
California.
And nearby was the LittleSaigon district.
And, and that housed thelargest population of Vietnamese
people outside of Vietnam.
So I looked at my case file, Isaw an article where one of the detectives
from the Westminster PoliceDepartment had just rescued two Thai
girls.
And so I thought, okay, thisis a guy I need to be working with.
(08:55):
And so, long story short, ifyou Listen to my TEDx talk, you can
hear the whole story.
But long story short, I woundup on this organized crime task force
at the Westminster Police Department.
And we worked Asian organizedcrime cases, everything stemming
from loan sharking to murderfor hire.
We did a lot of differenttypes of cases there.
(09:17):
And yeah, and we were able toarrest a lot of really bad people
who are targeting their own communities.
So.
So that was, that was reallyinteresting for a six foot blonde
to be working in Little sideon, but, but yeah, we did it.
Your life would never beboring, that's for sure.
Yeah, it was, it was.
I mean, I look back and, and Ijust feel so fortunate that I had
(09:38):
such an opportunity.
But I also made myopportunities as well.
Like how do you just sit backon the couch after living a life
like that?
It's like, oh my God.
Yeah, the problem, I'm notsitting on the couch, you know.
Right.
You're like, can't do that.
But.
Oh, that's just amazing.
Yeah, well, I've always lovedto tell stories.
I've always taken writingclasses and so I'm working on some
(10:00):
projects now.
I do a lot of public speakingkeynote speaking where I speak about
leadership, but I kind ofinfuse some of these stories in so,
so people can really get afull picture of to how to lead through
chaos, crisis and change forone thing, or rise to the top in
male dominated fields for another.
But yeah, it's, it's been alot of fun and really the podcast
(10:23):
kind of allows me to continuemy service because that's something
I've always been a service orperson, so.
So yeah, so now I'm reallyhaving fun.
Stay tuned for more of womenRoad warriors coming up.
Dan Michael, the tax doctorHere, I have one question for you.
(10:45):
Do you want to stop worryingabout the irs?
If the answer is yes, thenlook no further.
I've been around for years.
I've helped countless peopleacross the country, and my success
rate speaks for itself.
So now you know where to findgood, honest help with your tax problems.
What are you waiting for?
If you owe more than $10,000to the IRS or haven't filed in years,
call me now at 888-557-4020 orgo to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free
(11:10):
consultation and get your life back.
Industry Movement TruckingMoves America Forward is telling
the story of the industry.
Our safety champions, thewomen of trucking, independent contractors,
the next generation oftruckers, and more.
Help us promote the best ofour industry.
Share your story and what youlove about trucking.
(11:30):
Share images of a momentyou're proud of and join us on social
media.
Learn more@truckingmovesamerica.com.
Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson and
Kathy Tucaro.
(11:51):
If you're enjoying thisinformative episode of Women Road
Warriors, I wanted to mentionKathy and I explore all kinds of
topics that will power you onthe road to success.
We feature a lot of expertinterviews, plus we feature celebrities
and women who've been trailblazers.
Please check out ourpodcast@womenroadwarriors.com and
click on our Episodes page.
(12:11):
We're also available whereveryou listen to podcasts on all the
major podcast channels likeSpotify, Apple, YouTube, Amazon,
Music, Audible, you name it.
Check us out and bookmark our podcast.
Also, don't forget to followus on social media.
We're on Twitter, Facebook,Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn, YouTube,
and other sites and tellothers about us.
(12:32):
We want to help as many womenas possible.
We've been talking with formerFBI Assistant Special Agent in Charge
Gina Osborne, a truetrailblazer who's been breaking barriers
and leading with courage insome of the toughest arenas imaginable.
From taking downcybercriminals to confronting Cold
War spies, Gina's story provesthat leadership isn't about titles,
(12:54):
it's about tenacity.
She's the host of the podcastMaking Maverick Moves.
Let's dive back in and hearhow she continues to help people
make those maverick moves andthrive under pressure.
Gina, I would imagine youcould write some really good novels
with all the experiencesyou've had.
Thank you, Shelley.
(13:15):
Well, you've experiencedthings firsthand and certainly, gosh,
you could even be an advisoron a Film because a lot of the stuff
that they have in the moviesis probably not too realistic.
You could say, wait a minute,that's not the way it's done.
But this is really cool.
Why don't you try this?
You know.
Yeah, you know what?
I don't think people wouldreally believe what really happened
back in the day, because thereare some stories for sure, but.
(13:38):
Yeah.
Do you want me to tell you oneof my favorite stories?
Sure, yeah, please do.
So my husband and I were onthis team together.
We were a young, young married couple.
And while we were working theAlbert Sambilay case, he was going
into Belgium from Germany.
He lived in Germany and thenhe would cross into Belgium.
But as a team, for whateverreason, we didn't have authority
(14:00):
to follow him into Belgium.
And so whenever he went intoBelgium, someone would have to get
out of their car, go up to thetop of this hill by the bor and just
sit on the hill and watch forwhen he came back.
And then the surveillance teamwould pick him up once he came back
into Germany.
Well, when my ex husband, withmy ex husband now, when he got out
(14:21):
of the car, it happened to bein front of or not too far from a
car of polizei, the police,and they released their dog, the
border dog, on him, and chased him.
And for about two hours Ithought he had been eaten by border
guard dogs.
Luckily he had not.
(14:42):
But if I write that novel, Ithink he's going to end that way
by being eaten by border dogs.
Okay, I'm kidding.
But yeah, but those type ofthings, you know, you never would
have believed.
But yeah, it was veryharrowing at the, you know, for two
hours wondering if I was evergoing to see him alive again.
I bet.
(15:02):
Well, I imagine that you hadmore than one close call in those
kind of situations.
You definitely, if you werefound out, I would imagine your life
would be in danger.
Danger.
Yeah, yeah, it was quite, itwas quite an experience.
But the interesting thing is,so after I retired, I did some creative
things for a couple of yearsand then I became the chief safety
and security officer for La Metro.
(15:23):
And it was a time after, rightafter the pandemic in 2022, they
hadn't done fair enforcementor code of conduct enforcement for
about two years during the pandemic.
So, you know, it wasinteresting that during my time there,
I spent two years at La Metroand I think that was the most violence
that I had seen in my ent.
Their 28 year career duringthe two years that I was there.
(15:47):
So that in and of itself is,is a story, but, you know, through
all of these, theseexperiences, I've been able to help
people, you know, deal withchaos, crisis and change, of course,
but then also resilience and,and, and really the, the message
is that, you know, everythingthat happens is supposed to happen,
(16:08):
and if you're prepared, youcan make your maverick move.
And when I talk about maverickmoves on my podcast, I talk about
how you kind of get up to thewall and you're afraid or you're
confused or you'reintimidated, yet you go through anyway.
Right.
So those are the type ofstories that I like to tell of people
who decide to move forwardeven when they are afraid to find
(16:31):
that breakthrough success.
We deal with those things in life.
And that's definitelysomething that people can benefit
from.
Well, when you were talkingabout working in Los Angeles at that
point, that was when somebodyhijacked an LA Metro bus.
Right?
Right.
Yeah.
And two.
And within like a, probably afour or five month period, they had
(16:52):
two hijackings.
The first one was when the buswas hijacked by an individual who
had a BB gun and he definitelyhad the operator, and the operator
wound up hitting several carsand crashing into the side of the
Ritz Carlton Hotel.
But the one after that, thathappened, I think in the summer last
(17:15):
year, was when one of thepassengers was shot and another one
was injured as he or she, Idon't know, was.
Was fleeing out of the bus.
So, yeah, they've had somereally harrowing things go on, but
hopefully it's going to.
It's getting better.
Yeah.
And you had some serioustwists and turns there.
(17:35):
I mean, you kind of ran into abrick wall.
Weren't you unjustlyterminated after raising some concerns
about how officers werepatrolling the LA Metro system?
So, yes.
So LA Metro had $200 millioncontracts with the LAPD, the LA Sheriff's
Department, and the Long BeachPolice Department.
And I was unhappy with theperformance of these agencies.
(18:00):
Well, after a few times thatone particular month, I think it
was In February of 2024, I waslooking for the Los Angeles Sheriff's
Department, who was supposedto be at one of the stations in Santa
Monica, and they weren't therefor probably the third or fourth
time in a row.
And so I learned later thatday that they were hosting a golf
(18:23):
tournament for a Baker toVegas run that they were going to
do.
And so I wound up reaching outto the Inspector general to tell
her about it.
And then about a week later, Iwas fired.
Wow.
Wow.
And with your background, Imean, that had to have been such
a major blow because certainlywhat you brought to the table, you
(18:48):
would think that they wouldvalue you.
I mean, people run into this, though.
They run into these unfair knocks.
The school of hard knocks, ifyou will, in life.
And to be able to justpersevere is hard to do.
Yes, well, when it.
I was very shocked because theway that it happened, I was in my
office, and then the nextthing you know, the HR chief comes
(19:11):
in, I'm terminated, I'm walked out.
And, you know, I'm past my staff.
And it was.
It was a shock, to say the least.
Right.
But I. I was professionalabout it.
And I know from my pastexperiences that with every crisis
comes an opportunity.
(19:32):
So I sat for two days, very,very quietly, because I wanted to
know, okay, there's gotta besome purpose behind this.
And the next thing you know,Rachel Urenga from the LA Times reached
out to me.
She had found out that I wasno longer with Metro, and she was
writing a story on it.
That's when I figured, okay, Ineed to get an attorney, because
(19:55):
this isn't right.
But it's right after.
And it was in the newspaper,of course.
But right after that, the hugesurge of CR happened.
Shootings and stabbings andall sorts of crazy things were happening.
And the media was calling meto talk about what is happening at
Metro.
So for the two years I wasthere, I was trying to get Metro
(20:15):
their own police departmentbecause obviously the contract policing
was not effective.
And so at the end of the day,Metro got about over $100 million
worth of additional resources.
And also they were approvedunanimously by the board to get their
own police department.
And I like to think that, youknow, me going public with the things
(20:36):
that I saw helped toward that.
So if I could do anything tohelp the frontline employees or the
riders, that was what I wantedto do.
So it had its purpose, for sure.
Bravo for that.
Well, sometimes you have tocome out and be an advocate to make
the change.
And a lot of times, gettingout in the media is exactly what's
needed, because I think a lotof times things are just kept on
(20:59):
the DL, if you will, and oncethey're brought out into the sunshine,
change has to happen.
Yes, I agree.
And really, that kind of goesto show because I always talk about,
you know, be very carefulabout the hill you choose to die
on.
Right?
Yes.
There are consequences withchoosing that hill that you're willing
to die on.
And so many times when I'mmentoring Young people.
(21:20):
You know, these days it seemslike everybody's willing to die on
any hill.
But, you know, there.
There are definitely consequences.
But I'll tell you, you know,it really changed my life in such
a positive way.
And I really look at it as agift because without that, I wouldn't
have created this amazingplatform with my podcast to be able
(21:43):
to really show people that,hey, these are the things that happened.
But when you find that hillthat you're willing to die on, when
you want to make your maverickmove, let me help you, and let me
introduce you to some peoplewho can tell you how they did it.
And the most fascinating thingwas the fact that I had interviewed.
(22:05):
My first guest was the LA CityFire chief, and I interviewed her
before the LA fires.
So I interviewed her inNovember of last year.
So fast forward the fires happened.
She wound up going on the newsbecause this was her hill that she
was willing to die on.
When I spoke to her before thefire, I asked her, what maverick
move have you made?
(22:26):
And she said, well, I'm makingone right now because I don't have
the resources to do my job.
So fast forward to February.
She was fired two days beforemy podcast episode was launched or
my podcast was launched.
And so, you know, justwatching what she went through, I
mean, it really resonated withme because I had the same experience.
I think we were both, youknow, politically incorrect or what
(22:51):
have you.
But.
But, yeah, but, you know, Imean, as a result of what she did,
she wound up getting $103million, an increase in her budget
on the following June whileshe was sitting demoted, you know,
working as, I think, anassistant chief in one of the stations.
So really, those are theheroes, you know, the people who
are willing to die on thathome for the greater good.
(23:14):
It's tough to do.
You're really taking apersonal risk.
And I think a lot of peoplemight want to do this sort of thing,
but a maverick move doesn'tnecessarily have to be something
like that.
What would you define as amaverick move?
Well, you know, I meet a lotof people through my podcast, and
there are people who just feellike they lack confidence.
(23:37):
I had someone, a wonderful,lovely person, come and talk to me
and tell me that, you know,she wishes she could be more confident.
So just flexing that muscleand stepping out of that box, little
by little by little, that'show you're going to grow your confidence.
And so it could be as.
As small as taking your powerback in a situation at work, or it
(24:03):
could be as big as going onthe news and talking about how your
fire department wasn't funded properly.
So really what we talk about,we go from soup to nuts on the show.
But really the whole purposebehind it is to give people some
guidance because I thinkeverybody kind of wants to make that
(24:24):
maverick move.
Everybody wishes they can dosomething spectacular.
And so we'd like to helppeople on that journey step by step
to get them where they want to be.
Stay tuned for more of WomenRoad warriors coming up.
(24:46):
Dean Michael, the tax doctor here.
I have one question for you.
Do you want to stop worryingabout the irs?
If the answer is yes, thenlook no further.
Further.
I've been around for years.
I've helped countless peopleacross the country and my success
rate speaks for itself.
So now you know where to findgood, honest help with your tax problems.
What are you waiting for?
If you owe more than $10,000to the IRS or haven't filed in years,
(25:07):
call me now at 888-557-4020 orgo to mytaxhelpmd.com for a free
consultation and get your life back.
Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson and
Kathy Tucaro.
If you've ever wondered whatit takes to thrive in high pressure,
(25:31):
male dominated arenas, ourguest today knows firsthand.
Gina Osborne climbed the ranksof the FBI to become an assistant
special agent in charge, arare achievement for any woman.
She led major investigationsinto organized crime, cyber terrorism
and national security threats,tackling everything from cold War
espionage to modern day cyber attacks.
(25:53):
But Gina's impact didn't stopwhen she left the Bureau.
She's now a TEDx speaker,leadership coach, and host of the
Making Maverick Moves podcast,empowering others to navigate chaos
and lead with confidence.
Her story will inspire you torewrite your own definition of fearless
leadership.
Gina, your maverick moves havebeen huge.
(26:14):
You're a terrific example for everybody.
And Kathy, you said you hadsome thoughts of what maverick moves
are to you.
You know, I think thatmaverick moves, I, I love that term,
by the way.
It really is people, because Ideal with a lot of women in shelters
and recovery homes and, youknow, kids that are people that are
(26:37):
struggling and people whenthey look at me, because I have quite
the history of changing mylife, going from drunk and homeless
to driving the biggestequipment in the world.
And I had a maverick move.
I had a point where I had topivot with purpose and say, this
stops here and I'm going to change.
Well, like I tell women inrecovery or in the shelters, I says
(27:01):
it doesn't have to be like, Ididn't get there overnight, like,
you know, one step thatbrought me to the next, into the
next, to the next.
So whatever it is that.
It doesn't have to be someginormous move.
It can be just, you know,what, walking out the door from your
abusive ex.
That's a maverick move.
Like as.
Now that you can say it, that terminology.
(27:22):
It doesn't have to besomething major like operating the
biggest truck in the world.
It can just be whatever youfeel is big in your life is the same.
Right?
And, and that is what's goingto give you, you power.
That is what's going to giveyou confidence to take another, to
do another move, to takeanother step.
And the more steps you take,the bigger, the more belief you have
(27:43):
in yourself.
Because when you look back,you're like, hey, I just did this.
Hey.
Oh, dang.
Look what I just did.
You know, and that's how Ithink success keeps, keeps its momentum.
That is a remarkable story,Kathy, and that is so true, because
how many maverick moves didyou make to get to that point?
So if we just kind of make it,you know, step by step, one step
(28:05):
after the other, then, thenyou can get there.
But I'll tell you, I had neverbeen fired before, and that really
was liberating for me in away, because I think that was probably.
I mean.
Yeah, a lot of it stings.
It must have stung.
Oh, yeah, no, no, no, for sure.
But, you know, it's funny, Ididn't feel shame at all because
(28:27):
when I started talking aboutit publicly, you know, it was, it
was, the purpose was, youknow, there were bus operators who
were afraid to go to work.
You know, like 79 people diedon the metro system the year before.
So change definitely needed tobe made.
And, and so when you're, youknow, when you're out there, sometimes
(28:48):
you choose a hill you'rewilling, you may be willing to die
on, but sometimes that hillchooses you.
And when it does, you know,you're, you're, you have to react
one way or the other.
So it was super liberating tobe able to get to that point because
now I can be unapologeticallyfearless because I've been through
that and I know what it's like.
(29:08):
And I know I got back up and Iknow I continued down the road to
make my dreams come true.
Been there, done that, got theT shirt.
Yeah.
And I think, yeah, people areafraid of the risk and certainly
people have been unfairly terminated.
It Seems like that happens ina lot of companies today.
There isn't the value of loyalty.
(29:29):
Gone are the days where peoplecan start a job at a company and
retire and get the watch atthe, what, the end of the 30 years
or whatever people have.
There's a lot of transition.
There's so much chaos,constant change in our world.
And I think that maybesometimes people are just kind of
frozen in place because theydon't know what move to make.
(29:49):
Yes, you're right.
The biggest killer ofinnovation is the status quo.
And that's, you know, that'swhat we have to choose.
Are we.
You know, a lot of times whenyou're working in an environment
that does not empower you,that does not value you, that, you
know, all you're trying to dois get through the day.
How much magic happens when aworkforce is just trying to get through
(30:15):
the day?
So when I do my keynotespeaking, you know, I talk about
leadership and how importantit is to empower your people, because
that's when the magic happens.
When the innovation start,when you allow people to be creative
in the workplace, they canmake their own decisions and they're
not being micromanaged.
It's just I love to watchpeople grow in that way because once
(30:38):
they start, you know, puttingtheir own sweat and ideas into the
greater good, everybody'sbetter for it.
Not everybody's a good leader.
That is true.
Wow.
10:4 to that.
That is true.
We definitely need betterleaders out there.
And, you know, people alwaysask me, you know, what, what's your
(31:00):
favorite leadership book?
And it's like, I don't readleadership books because, you know,
I think I've learned over timewhat works and what doesn't work.
And it's all about surroundingyourself with greatness.
You know, I always have hadthe template to my success has always
been based on surroundingmyself with really, really strong,
(31:21):
amazing, innovative, creative people.
And, you know, when you'rejust trying to keep your racehorses
on the, on the track, youknow, that's when you're in a really,
really good place, because ifyou just let them run, then they're
going to run really fast andreally long.
But if you beat yourracehorses, you're not going to get
(31:42):
anything out of them.
That's true.
And you want to encourage the innovation.
You want to encourage thatspirit, that winning spirit, which
I think a lot of companies andorganizations have to kind of think
about.
Some people are absolutecontrol freaks, and they want to
micromanage everything.
(32:02):
And if you want an innovatorand somebody who's going to have
that star power, they can't be micromanaged.
And a leader also has to beable to take maybe a contrary opinion.
If you're surrounded with yesmen, yes women, that's not necessarily
the best scenario either.
Yeah, no, I agree.
And people can go onto my LinkedIn.
(32:24):
Gina L. Osborne.
I've written several articlesand I had a series of called Leadership
Lessons from Horrible Bosses.
And micromanagement was thefirst part of it because that kills
people.
And I know how I feel when I'm micromanaged.
It's like, okay, I'm justgoing to call it in because if I
(32:45):
can't, if I'm not, my freethought is not appreciated here.
But you know, when you have anentire workforce full of, you know,
a leader that's filled withfear, that's a micromanager that
has to be in control all the time.
Yeah.
It's just ordinary.
It is.
I've never liked to be micromanaged.
(33:05):
I couldn't stand it as a kid.
I was a little rebel.
Shelly, you still are justsaying, right?
True, true.
Yeah.
I mean, you have to be able towork as a team, certainly, but you
don't forget the individual.
And I think so many of us feellike we're being gobbled up with
all the technology andeverything else.
(33:27):
The individuality and thecommunication is lacking.
Yes, yes, for sure.
And I think, you know, chaosis kind of the name of the game when
you look at how we're packingour kids schedules, right?
You know, we take Julie overhere and Sammy over here and we've,
you know, we're packing theseschedules so that we're kind of creating
(33:48):
that environment of chaos.
And so what I like to share isthat, you know, we are what we tolerate.
So any little tolerations thatwe have in our life, and it could
be as small as boxes stackedup in the garage, that every time
we drive into the garage, wesee those boxes and then we get that
(34:10):
heaviness feeling, oh my gosh,I got to unpack those boxes.
And it happens every time wepull into the garage as opposed to,
okay, well, if I unpack theboxes, every time I pull into the
garage, I'm going to feel thatfreedom that comes with, I don't
have to look at that anymore.
And that kind of adds space.
So what I tell people is,okay, write down all of the things
(34:33):
that you tolerate, from thelittle itty bitty things all the
way to the major relationshipsituations that, you know, nobody
wants to have to deal with at all.
And if you find, you know,just schedule time to eliminate these
tolerations.
Okay, I'm going to unpack the boxes.
I'm going to fix the faucet inthe sink.
I'm going to clean out thelaundry room or what have you.
(34:56):
And then once you findyourself doing these things, I mean,
just kind of gauge how doesthat feel.
And the less chaos you have inyour life, the more you're going
to be able to see around thecorners to prevent bigger chaos.
But the name of the game whenit comes to chaos is it doesn't take
much for chaos to turn into a cris.
(35:17):
If it's left unchecked.
So if we want to kind of havea calmer life where we're not running
and running and running, weneed to prioritize getting rid of
what we're tolerating, becausethat's going to add a lot more room
and a lot more peace in our lives.
Amen.
Yep.
I think we have a tendency totolerate too much and.
(35:37):
And certainly, yes, there isthe chaos.
Actually, you know, I've beensingle for six years.
Six years now.
I think it's because I don'ttolerate it anymore.
Right.
Yeah.
Do you feel a lot calmer and happier?
Oh, my God, yes.
And you know what the bestpart is?
Is that I don't let it stew.
I know exactly what I want,what I don't want, and if it ain't.
If it ain't meeting up to par.
(35:58):
See ya.
You know, it's just.
I just won't do it.
I don't have time.
Yeah, it's those boundaries.
Those are healthy boundariesthat you've created.
So you don't.
Oh, God.
Actually, you know, speakingof boundaries, it took me till I
was the age of 40 and inrecovery, for the first time, I actually
had to ask my counselor whatthat word mean.
I had no idea.
(36:19):
I was such a doormat my entire life.
Used to letting everybodyconduct my life for me, make my choices
for me.
That when it came toboundaries, I'm like, huh, What?
Like, it took me a long timeto actually be.
To be able to say no and nottry to explain my way out of it.
Like, just say no.
Right.
And that is the biggestfreedom I've ever had in my life.
(36:41):
True.
Because you.
It's self respect.
Yep.
Yeah.
Stay tuned for more of womenroad warriors coming up.
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media.
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Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson at Kathleen.
We're back with Gina Osborne,a true pioneer who traded in her
(38:08):
FBI badge for a microphone anda mission.
As a former assistant specialagent in charge, Gina spent years
dismantling organized crimerings, investigating espionage, and
leading elite cyber crime teams.
Now she's turning thoseexperiences into life lessons and
helping professionalstransform fear into focus and adversity
into action.
(38:28):
Through her Making MaverickMoves podcast and leadership work,
Gina proves that courage isn'tjust about being fearless, it's about
showing up.
Anyway, we've been reallyenjoying her insight as well as hearing
about her incredible journey.
Gina in our previous segment,we were talking about boundaries
and why they're healthy to have.
And it's hard sometimes, morethan sometimes, for women to say
(38:50):
no.
I don't think men have as harda time doing that.
Yeah, but why do you thinkthat is?
Because we're taught to bepeople pleasers and be polite for
sure.
Kathy, why do you think wecan't say no?
You know, that's a tough one.
I think that the being the,in, like, being such caregivers are,
(39:13):
you know, in, in our DNA andthe selflessness.
So it's constantly,constantly, you know, just doing
all sorts of things and youautomatically, I think people don't
even realize that they're,they're taking on taking on taking
on until it's too late, till.
They'Re burned out like I did.
You know, it took me till 40to realize, you know, once I lost
(39:34):
everything and I'm sittingthere with no more nursing career,
no more nothing, and I'm like,huh, you know, so busy taking care
of everybody else that Icompletely forgot, like, that I even
existed.
So I couldn't say no.
I didn't know how to say no.
No.
I was born with theexpectation as a very young child
that you never said no becauseyou'd get a beating if you did.
(39:55):
So I guess it can be a lot of reasons.
Was there a moment that you'relike, I'm not going to do this anymore?
Yeah.
I had a moment where a pivotwith purpose is when I was standing
drunk and homeless, havinglost my nursing career.
I was standing beside a guynamed Toothless Joe.
And it was like I saw soclear, I can't even explain it.
Like I look around and it's asif a whole cloud had shattered into
(40:20):
a billion pieces.
And I saw so crystal clearthat I had such a bigger purpose
than what I was living.
And I look at that guy and Isaid, this is not my life.
I just made that pivot and Iturned around and I walked straight
to the hospital and I detoxfor two weeks.
Then I went to recovery andthen I took my next step and next
step and next step.
Right, so that was my maverick moment.
(40:41):
Yeah, yeah, it was.
That is true courage right there.
Yes.
And how do people find the courage?
I love this.
Leading through chaos, crisisand change.
That takes courage.
Yeah, but I think that goesalong with, you know, building those
muscles of putting yourself ina situation where you don't feel,
you may not feel comfortabledoing the TEDx talk.
(41:05):
I had always been afraid ofpublic speaking.
I had always felt uncomfortable.
I had avoided it throughout myentire 28 year law enforcement career.
And it wasn't until after Iretired that I started to, you know,
go out there and, and I tookacting classes and I did all of these
things that was, that wouldmake me feel less nervous and, and
(41:26):
more comfortable to, to beable to tell my stories.
And I think it all culminateculminated with my TEDx talk.
Because, you know, I mean, itwas like that was the real deal and
I wasn't nervous at all.
And I think, you know, butwhat did that take?
It took me being uncomfortableseveral times.
Many, many times going onstage when I didn't want to do it
(41:49):
and you know, second guessingmyself the entire time I was on stage
and maybe kicking myself afterI got off thinking I could have done
better.
But, but yeah, but if you kindof step outside of that box a little
bit and it doesn't have to bea lot, just a little bit each time,
that's how the courage rose.
Yeah, it's like coming fromsuch an abusive background when I.
(42:09):
The first day I'm at work,standing beside the biggest truck
in the world.
And when I say that, I'm notsure if you know what these mining
trucks are.
The tires are 14ft tall.
It's two and a half stories toget to the cab where you sit.
When the box is up, it's fivestories higher.
I drive a building.
And so that first day, comingfrom all this low self esteem and
all these people telling mywhole life, you're useless, you're
(42:31):
stupid, you'll never amount tonothing, blah blah, blah.
And I'm standing beside thistire, looking up at the cab, thinking,
oh my God, you want to talkabout, step out of your comfort zone.
And it took me self talking myway every single day, sometimes multiple
times a day, to get throughit, to start believing.
And that like you said,courage grows.
(42:53):
The more you do it, the moreit becomes more of a natural foundation
for you.
Right?
And all you have to do is belief.
That's all, that's all it takes.
You gotta try, you gotta giveit a shot.
Had I not even given a shot, Imean, I'd still be probably drinking
my days away, you know what I mean?
But I just had enough.
And I think basically you haveto make a decision is the bottom
(43:16):
line.
Yeah, that's true.
And if you don't make adecision, that's a decision.
So it's better to actuallyhave a.
Good way of looking at it.
Yeah, it's better to activelymake a decision.
Because if you don't make adecision, you're really not in control,
are you?
You know, it's.
You're just letting life happen.
And that's not why we're here.
And Gina, you have a lot ofgreat messages.
How to rise to the top in aman's world and making the maverick
(43:39):
moves.
Do you think all women canrise to the top in a man's world?
Well, first off, I don'tbelieve it's a man's world.
And I think that goes back towhen I was a little girl.
I think I was like 7 years old.
My dad left, my mom was leftwith my sister and me.
And you know, she had been ahairdresser before she got married.
(44:02):
And then she was home for 13years as a housewife.
And she decided instead of,you know, going out because she was
desperate, she wasn't gettingalimony, she had to pay for these
kids.
Right.
And she decided to go intoreal estate, you know, a commission
based field.
And this is in 1973 or so.
Right.
(44:22):
So back in the day where Ididn't even think women were even
allowed to get loans on their own.
She woke us up every Saturday,and we had to go out and pass out
her literature.
And in her first year, and thehouses she was selling were $35,000
a piece, right.
And she sold over a milliondollars in property her first year.
(44:43):
Wow.
I just had her on my podcast,and I asked her, I said, what made
you think that you could do that?
And she said, I just believedit, and it is so powerful.
But I never grew up in ahousehold where we talked about a
glass ceiling.
I didn't learn about a glassceiling until I was in basic training.
(45:04):
I had been pulled out of mybunker in the middle of the night
to paint the drill sergeant's office.
And we're painting, and one ofthe other privates was talking about
this glass ceiling.
And I'm like, no, that doesn'tapply to me.
Just because it was never areality for me.
Imposter syndrome.
You know, I'm not.
That doesn't apply to me.
So I think that's kind of mymechanism of dealing with things
is that when everyone'ssitting around complaining about
(45:28):
how things are so unfair orhow, you know, if only this would
happen, or, you know, poor mebecause I'm a woman or what have
you, I was out working and Iwas out making maverick moves.
And so I think that if weallow it to apply to us, it's gonna
slow us down.
If we don't allow it to applyto us, we're gonna ignore it and
(45:51):
not allow it to be an obstaclefor us.
Good way of thinking.
You had a really great examplewith your mom, too.
So you could see that thisreally can work.
You could take a risk, and youcan rise above this and really kick
some butt.
Oh, yeah.
Which is what you've beendoing all your life.
And your podcast, makingmaverick moves, you feature a lot
of really cool peopletrailblazing figures who've made
(46:13):
bold rule bending actions, andthey shatter the barriers.
Where do people find your podcast?
So you can find me everywhere.
So Apple, Spotify, anywhereyou get your podcasts, and you can
also find me on TikTok and YouTube.
We videotape the interviews,and so they're out on YouTube, so
(46:37):
you can watch the entire interviews.
But we've got some reallyamazing guests.
Guests this season.
And yeah, I'm super excited toshare all of this great information
that I've learned and that myguests share with our audience.
Very cool.
Well, your background has beenamazing, and we've just gotten a
(46:59):
snippet.
I'm such a badass.
Yeah, you really are.
You're badass, Gina.
This is so cool.
Well, you know, listening toKathy's story, she's pretty much
a badass.
And you too, Shelly, I think.
Thank you.
You road warriors are prettyamazing yourselves.
Yeah, we're trying to empowerwomen because really, when you empower
(47:19):
women, you empower the wholeworld because they raise families.
So you're empowering futuregenerations, you know, for sure.
I totally agree that.
Agree with that.
And the fact that you all arelisted so high on the top of empowerment,
you know, for women, you'redoing great work and you're helping
so many people.
So thank you for that.
(47:39):
Well, thank you, Gina.
Yeah.
Kathy and I are both superexcited about it.
I love.
I know she does, too.
Kathy, you love helping people.
And that's about, you know.
Yeah.
You know, and I.
And I say when I.
Because this happened withToothless Joe back in 2011, and I
always say, man, if onlyToothless Joe could see me now.
Like, holy crap, there you go.
(48:02):
And the thing with that wholestory is that the miracle was right
around the corner.
And I would if somebody wouldhave told me the same thing, oh,
you know, in 10 years, you'llbe doing this, this, and this.
I'd be like, yeah, writer.
Are you high?
Like, you know, I laughed himup the sidewalk.
So I tell that to women everywhere.
Just believe and do it.
Take that step.
Just believe.
I love that.
Yes.
For sure.
(48:22):
And it was.
It always is right around the corner.
But, you know, I think we kindof stay where we're at by.
By not believing orcomplaining or feeling sorry for
ourselves.
But, you know, when we tendour minds to other things, the butterfly
will come instead on our shoulder.
So go do some good.
Whenever you're waiting forsomething to happen or you're working
(48:43):
towards something to happenand you're frustrated that it hasn't
happened yet, focus on otherthings, and it'll be, like you said,
right around the corner.
I love that.
Gina, where do people find you?
My website is gina l.osborne.com.
please connect with me onLinkedIn at Gina L. Osborne.
So, yeah, everything is GinaL. Osborne, and I'm very, very happy
(49:04):
to help anyone who is on theirleadership journey.
Thank you so much for being onour show.
This has been terrific.
My pleasure.
Thank you, ladies.
Gina Osborne's insights arepowerful, and she's changing women's
futures one person at a timewith a powerful perspective that
with every crisis comes an opportunity.
(49:24):
And you can lead fearlesslywith a maverick mindset that requires
the ability to make bolddecisions with resilience and navigate
uncertainty certainty.
It takes practice, but it canbe done.
We've been very fortunate totap into just some of Gina's wisdom.
If you want to learn more, besure to check out gina's website@ginalosborne.com
(49:49):
Osborne is spelled O S B O Rn. Again, that's ginalosborne.com
as well as her podcast MakingMaverick Moves.
You won't regret it.
We hope you've enjoyed thislatest episode, and if you want to
hear more episodes of WomenRoad warriors or learn more about
our show, be sure to check outwomenroadwarriors.com and please
(50:12):
follow us on social media.
And don't forget to subscribeto our podcast on our website.
We also have a selection ofpodcasts Just for Women.
They're a series of podcastsfrom different podcasters, so if
you're in the mood for women'spodcasts, just click the Power network
tab on womenroadwarriors.comyoum'll have a variety of shows to
(50:33):
listen to anytime you want to.
Podcasts Made for Women WomenRoad warriors is on all the major
podcast channels like Apple,Spotify, Amazon, Audible, YouTube,
and others.
Check us out and please followus wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
You've been listening to Worldwelcome to Women Road warriors with
(50:54):
Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
If you want to be a guest onthe show or have a topic or feedback,
email us@sjohnsonomenroadwarriors.com.
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