October 21, 2025 • 51 mins
When opportunity doesn’t knock, some women build their own door — and that’s exactly what Lauren Wittenberg Weiner did. As a military spouse stationed overseas, Lauren refused to accept the limits placed on her career. Lauren is the author of Unruly, where she reminds women that following the rules doesn’t mean following everyone else. She’s living proof that grit, purpose, and innovation can turn barriers into breakthroughs. She calls herself an “accidental entrepreneur.” Unable to find work, she forged her own path in the male-dominated world of government contracting — and ended up building an empire that empowers military spouses. Lauren founded WWC Global, now one of the largest woman-owned contracting firms in Tampa Bay. Her company made history by landing a $200 million U.S. Special Operations Command award, supporting elite units like the Navy SEALs and Green Berets. Over two decades, she scaled WWC Global to nearly $100 million in annual revenue before selling it in 2022 — all while employing more than 250 military spouses around the world. She also founded In Gear Career, a nonprofit that merged with the U.S. Chamber of Commerce Foundation’s Hiring Our Heroes program, helping thousands of military spouses sustain meaningful employment through every PCS move. Learn more in this episode of Women Road Warriors with Shelley Johnson and Kathy Tuccaro.
https://laurenwittenbergweiner.com/
https://www.militarysurvivor.com/benefits-1-1/in-gear-career
https://womenroadwarriors.com/
https://womenspowernetwork.net
military spouse employment, women in business, government contracting, female entrepreneurs, inspiring stories, #Military #USMilitary #MilitarySpouses #MilitaryCareers #WWCGlobal #InGearCareer #LaurenWittenbergWeiner #ShelleyJohnson #ShelleyMJohnson #KathyTuccaro #WomenRoadWarriors
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
This is Women Road warriorswith Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
From the corporate office tothe cab of a truck, they're here
to inspire and empower womenin all professions.
So gear down, sit back and enjoy.
(00:24):
Welcome.
We're an award winning showdedicated to empowering women in
every profession throughinspiring stories and expert insights.
No topics off limits on our show.
We power women on the road tosuccess with expert and celebrity
interviews and information you need.
I'm Shelley.
And I'm Kathy.
(00:45):
As we've all heard, necessityis the mother of invention.
Women are experts in doing this.
Lauren Wittenberg Weiner canvouch for that.
She says she survives throughwit and grit.
She's the author of the book Unruly.
She calls herself anaccidental entrepreneur who when
she couldn't get work as amilitary spouse stationed overseas,
(01:07):
found great success in themale dominated field of military
contracting.
She changed the rules of thegame and started WWC Global, one
of the largest privately heldgovernment contracting firms in Tampa
Bay.
WWC Global won the largestaward ever to a woman owned small
business in U.S. specialOperations Command headquarters history.
(01:27):
With a $200 million contractto train and offer military exercise
support with specialoperations like the Navy seals, Green
Berets and others.
Lauren is an amazing mentorfor women and an example of how we
can prevail in business.
Lauren has an undergraduatedegree from the University of Michigan
and a PhD in psychology fromDartmouth College.
(01:48):
Over the past 20 years, shebuilt her company to nearly $100
million in annual revenuebefore selling it in 2022.
WWC Global now employs over250 military spouses and has kept
them employed through manymilitary moves.
Lauren's nonprofit In GearCareer focuses exclusively on military
(02:08):
spouse employment.
It merged with the U.S.chamber of Commerce Foundation's
Hiring Our Heroes program.
Lauren is a tour de force thatwe wanted to talk to to tap into
her insight and serious innovation.
Welcome Lauren.
Thank you for being on theshow with us.
Thank you both so much forhaving me.
I'm really excited about it.
This is so very cool.
(02:29):
You know, you are a serioustrailblazer who's opening doors for
so many women.
How about if you give us thecliff notes on your story and how
all of this snowballed intosuch a terrific enterprise.
Sure.
Well, so I was working andminding my own business, thank you
very much.
In my White House job, I hadgotten a job coming out of graduate
(02:49):
school doing regulatory policyin the Office of Management and Budget,
which is the career side ofthe White House.
So I worked for Clintonadministration And then the second
Bush administration when I metmy now husband and he worked for
the Navy.
So at one point he was aboutto propose to me and got an offer
(03:14):
to go to Naples, Italy.
I thought it was going to be great.
We had just watched under theTuscan sun, so I was like, great,
we're going to go to therolling bucolic hills of Italy.
I looked it up and there werejobs that were open on the base,
so no problem.
And then we got out thereafter having four days to actually
(03:35):
get married.
So he proposed and four dayslater we were married at the justice
of the Peace.
But we, we headed out to Naples.
I found out that Naples wasdefinitely not Tuscany.
And then I figured out that atleast according to the HR office
there, military spousesweren't allowed to have professional
(03:58):
level jobs, at least that'swhat they told me at the time.
So I showed up having been afairly senior government policy officer
and got there and, and wastold I could be a secretary until
I got pregnant.
I didn't do well with that.
Not surprisingly.
(04:19):
I was gonna say that's likealmost a stop in the face.
It was 2004 at this point, soit really wasn't that long ago.
I mean, it, it seems like along time ago now, but.
But it really was way past ourmom's generation where that was kind
of standard and I didn't dowell with that.
So I.
(04:39):
Another military spouse whowas on the base, who had, who was
a lawyer, convinced me tostart a company just so I could get
work back in the States untilI could get back home and start my
career.
And instead somebody turned tous and said, hey, wait a second,
I need somebody smart to dosome analysis.
And that was an anti terrorismforce protection.
(05:00):
I gotta tell you, Shelly,Kathy, I didn't know what anti terrorism
force protection was.
I certainly, I don't think Icould spell it at the time, but I
was like, whatever gets me outof the house, yes, I will do it.
Sign me up, sure, I'll figureit out.
So I started and then within acouple of weeks, somebody said, hey,
(05:22):
wait a second, I need one of you.
Can I have another one of you?
And then I need another one of you.
And you know, if by one of usyou meant a smart military spouse,
gosh, there were a lot of us there.
And we had all been told wecould be secretaries.
And so we just started hiringand we grew quickly and we grew well
(05:43):
by using military spouses.
And then we got a little bitmore strategic and grew outside of
just the military spouse community.
But the first start of it was,yeah, there's a.
There's a ton of reallyimpressive women and men, but that
our, quote, dependence, whichis what we were called on the base
(06:03):
that couldn't work elsewhere.
And so we used them all.
Wow, what an evolution.
And you just kind of hit theground running, not really knowing
what direction to head.
It kind of created your owngps, if you will.
It was fun.
You know what we didn't knowwhat we.
I don't think.
(06:24):
You know, I call myself anoxygen entrepreneur specifically
because I didn't know what Ididn't know.
I didn't know.
I just.
It was a way to get a job andthen a way to keep going, and then
a way to keep building, and then.
And we just figured it out aswe went, and we.
We did it together, all of ustogether, and.
And made it happen.
So how'd you know how to hireand who to hire?
(06:46):
Because basically what youwere doing was.
It was unchartered territory.
And, I mean, you grew thatbusiness into a tremendous enterprise.
Yes, well, who to hire wasvery, very easy, honestly, at least
initially.
Who to hire was very easy.
There were so many incrediblemilitary spouses.
One of our first hires was aHarvard trained lawyer.
(07:08):
Another one was a.
She had a master's in publicpolicy and had been the budget director
for the state of Hawaii.
These were remarkable peoplewho weren't being utilized.
So who to hire was very easy.
How to hire, honestly.
I had come out of theregulatory office at the White House,
(07:29):
so I knew how to look up allthe rules.
I knew how to figure them out,and I knew where to find them.
So I just got really, reallygood at making sure that I knew what
the rules were and figuringout how to.
How to.
How to manage them.
Sure.
Oh, my goodness.
Very impressive.
Wow.
I'd be so overwhelmed.
Yeah, we were, but it's okay.
(07:50):
I mean, we.
You are overwhelmed.
You're never going to not beoverwhelmed when you're building
something like this.
But, you know, when you'redoing anything, it's easy to be overwhelmed
if you're pushing out of yourcomfort zone.
But pushing out of yourcomfort zone is where the growth
happens.
So we were eager to do that,and we kind of.
I mean, I guess I had beenoutside of my comfort zone for four
(08:13):
years before this.
When I was working for theWhite House.
I was never in my comfort zonethere, so I felt comfortable in the
discomfort.
Okay, that makes sense.
Comfortable being uncomfortable.
And when you think about it,life's kind of that way.
People like their securityblankets, but I think when they crawl
under those, sometimes theylimit their potential a million percent.
(08:35):
Yes.
So you're a keynote speaker.
What are some of your messagesfor women who are thinking about
doing something maybe out ofthe ordinary or, or trying to reinvent
the wheel, if you will?
What do you recommend?
Yeah, so one of my favoritekeynotes is Don't Climb Every Mountain,
which is exactly the oppositeof kind of what I did when we were
(08:57):
first building, because I wasclimbing every mountain that was
in front of us.
But at various points in mycareer, everyone has expected me
to do something and it was thenext mountain in front of me.
Right when I was getting myPh.D. it was I was supposed to be
a professor and I kind ofrealized I didn't want to be a professor
(09:20):
and people were kind ofincredulous that I could get there
and I didn't want to.
When we started the company,people were looking at us going,
well, that's not going to work.
How are you going to do that?
Why wouldn't you go back toyour White House job?
You know, why wouldn't you getthis kind of traditional job on base
until you can get back home?
(09:40):
And so we kind of threw outthe expectations at each turn.
And not every time.
Certainly we didn't keepchanging the path every day that
we could, but the times thatwe did, the times that we threw out
those expectations, learnedthe rules, but then threw out the
(10:01):
expectations that outside ofthe actual no kidding rules, and
went in our own path, our ownway, those were the times that we
found the biggest breakout success.
Stay tuned for more of WomenRoad warriors coming up.
(10:23):
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(10:44):
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Welcome back to Women RoadRoad warriors with Shelly Johnson
and Kathy Tucaro.
If you're enjoying thisinformative episode of Women Road
(11:04):
Warriors, I wanted to mentionKathy and I explore all kinds of
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We feature a lot of expertinterviews, plus we feature celebrities
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(11:45):
When opportunity doesn'tknock, some women build their own
door.
And that's exactly what LaurenWittenberg Weiner did.
As a military spouse livingoverseas, Lauren found herself shut
out of the traditional job market.
So she created her ownopportunity and in the process broke
barriers in one of the mostmale dominated industries out there.
(12:07):
Military contracting.
She founded WWC Global, apowerhouse government contracting
firm that went on to win thelargest award ever granted to a woman
owned small business.
But the U.S. specialOperations Command.
A $200 million contractsupporting elite forces like the
Navy seals and green berets.
(12:27):
Over the next 20 years, Laurengrew her company to nearly $100 million
in annual revenue beforeselling it in 2022.
Today, WWC Global employs morethan 250 military spouses, helping
them maintain meaningfulcareers no matter where duty sends
them.
She also launched in gearCareer, now part of the U.S. chamber
(12:49):
of Commerce's Hiring Ourheroes program.
It empowers military spouses nationwide.
Lauren is proof thatdetermination and vision can transform
challenges into empires.
Lauren, you've accomplished somuch in such a short time with your
amazing endeavor that came outof necessity and you've helped so
many people and then you justcontinue to grow kind of.
(13:10):
It was a metamorphosis, wasn't it?
Mm, yeah, yeah, we, we wentfrom just being overseas and just
with military spouses tobeing, like I said, a little bit
more strategic.
And so we pushed into acontract in D.C. at the state Department
and, and that was a very largecontract as well, which we didn't
(13:31):
realize was surprising for asmall business who had never really
done much work outside of the,the overseas contract, military environment.
We won against all the bigconsulting firms which at the time,
I don't think I realized quitehow big of a deal that was.
Now looking back on it, Ican't believe we did it.
But we started pushing intothe D.C. policy market and then we
(13:56):
got further and furtheroutside of just D.C. and overseas.
We moved into Norfolk, wemoved up to New Hampshire, we moved
into Tampa doing all this work.
So I think by the end of the,when we sold the company, I think
we covered 15 time zones.
Wow.
So, you know, we, we kind ofexpanded fairly quickly and and broadly
(14:19):
outside of just the Navy spacewhere we started, into broader dod,
into the State Department,into Homeland Security, into USAID
and a couple of the domesticagencies as well.
You know, just the world ofgovernment contracting, let alone
military contracting, that'sdaunting in and of itself.
(14:39):
And for you to make that kindof inroad is really amazing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And I love the fact thatyou're helping so many military spouses.
And when you think about it,women shouldn't have to give up their
dreams just because maybetheir husband decides to go into
the military.
I mean, and for you to betold, oh, you could be a secretary.
(15:00):
Really?
Wow.
Yep.
Yeah.
I think one of the things thatwe realized very early on was not
just that it was good for thespouses, which it was not just that.
It was.
It certainly was never charityfor us to do this for the spouses.
It was great business for us.
But above and beyond that, itwas a matter of national security,
(15:23):
because the best officers, noncommissioned officers, even the young
enlisted folks that were thereon base, they were married to the
best and brightest spouses.
And so if we kept the spousesengaged, then we would keep the best
(15:43):
of our military staying in themilitary, if they weren't engaged,
they were going to leave.
You were creating marital harmony.
Trying.
Yes.
Yeah.
What is it?
Some guys have said a happywife is a happy life.
Absolutely.
We crowd all the time.
Exactly it.
Yeah.
We heard that all the time.
(16:04):
We got it from a lot of the.
A lot of the military guysthat we had that we adhered their
wives.
And again, wasn't all wives.
There were plenty ofsurprisingly male spouses whose wives
were in the military.
And we were hiring as well.
Obviously it was skewed muchmore toward women.
(16:24):
But we heard that from a lotof the spouses that we had was happy
wife, happy life.
So they were very right with asister's story.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So what keeps you up at night?
What are your insights?
How have you been able to doall of these innovations and transitions?
(16:45):
You know, how have I been ableto do them?
I think one bite at a time.
Right?
You cannot possibly know whereyou're going all the time because
you're gonna loseopportunities if you think you know
exactly what path you're on.
So it's really takingadvantage of the opportunities as
(17:06):
they come.
Being prepared to takeadvantage of the opportunities as
they come.
Because if I had, you know,really, if I had told, if anyone
had asked me five yearsbefore, any period of time in my
life where I was going to bein five years.
I hate that question ininterviews, by the way.
But if anyone had told me atany point, where are you going to
(17:29):
be?
I would have gotten it wrongby a magnitude because I would have
underestimated where I wasgoing to be and it would have put
me in a totally different place.
Sure.
So being able to takeadvantage of the opportunities by
being prepared to takeadvantage of them, but recognizing
that you're not going to beable to predict all of them, I think
is what got us to where wegot, you.
(17:51):
Think, people quite often andmaybe more so with women, they limit
their opportunities.
They don't always see them.
They kind of have blinders on.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah.
And I think, I don't thinkthat's just women.
We had plenty of men, youknow, tell us after.
First of all, we had plenty ofpeople, mostly men, tell us when
(18:12):
we first started.
Oh, you can't do that.
That's not possible.
Right.
Or that's against the rules.
That's not the way it's goingto go.
Or, or you're totally wrongbecause military spouses can't possibly
do that kind of level of work.
Or we heard and, and, well,to, to finish that thought when we
heard that, my response wasusually, oh, really, watch me.
(18:36):
Right?
Oh, God, you tell me I can'tdo something.
Oh, yeah, watch this.
Yeah, I mean, me too.
Those were my, those were thefour words that drove my success
more than anything else was,oh, really, watch me.
And again, it's, you know, wedid the work to say I.
When they said, you can't dothat, it's against the rules.
I'd go back to the rules andsay, is it really against the rules?
(18:56):
And almost inevitably iteither wasn't or it was against some
rule.
But there was a different wayto get to where we wanted to get
to.
But then the other thing thatwe heard over and over and over again
was, oh, I thought of that.
Oh, I thought of usingmilitary spouses.
Oh, I had thought that wecould do that.
But you didn't do anythingabout it.
(19:18):
Right.
And so it's great that you'vethought of that.
It's great that you, you know,I joke that I thought of GPS well
before GPS ever came aboutbecause I am directionally clueless.
And I wanted my dad to programsomething into my car that would
tell me, turn here, turn here.
You know, in the 80s when I was.
Was learning to drive, but Ididn't do it because I didn't have
(19:40):
the technology or the know howto do that.
So I didn't come up with gps.
I thought of the, you know, Ithought it would be a great idea,
but you have to actuallyfollow through and make it happen.
So there's lots of naysayersthat say, oh, you can't do that.
And there's lots of people whosay, oh, I, I, I could have done
that, but you didn't.
(20:01):
Kind of interesting how manypeople who have been successful have
had a lot of naysayers.
And I don't know if women hearmore naysayers than men do.
You have people who are justplain jealous, maybe a little bit
lazy.
They don't want to do it.
They'll find every reason whyit can't work.
And I hate the word can't.
Absolutely.
(20:22):
Absolutely.
I feel like women may hearmore naysayers.
I think sometimes men mightjust not hear that because they're
just willing to plow through it.
I don't necessarily thinkpeople tell women, no, maybe they
do, but tell women that'scrazy more often.
(20:43):
I just don't think a lot ofthe men are introspective enough
or kind of open enough to hearthose criticisms.
I think they just keep goingand plow through and their ego lets
them say, I can do anything Iwant to.
But I think that's also whywomen, in the long run, when you
look at the research, end updoing better in many respects because
(21:05):
they're thinking through allof the things that could go wrong.
They're not running headfirstinto a brick wall.
I mean, sometimes it'll stopthem, but if they can power through
it and not let it stop them,they're going to do better than the
men who are like, I can doanything I want to do.
Right?
And that's, I've seen way toomany men who don't listen to advice,
(21:27):
who don't listen to the peoplewho are saying, not necessarily the
naysayers, but the people whoare like, hold on a second, have
you thought of this?
Right.
Men have a good way of somehowclosing down their ears.
Yes.
Very selective perceptionsometimes I think that's true.
Uh huh.
And they'll walk into a brickwall five times before they realize
(21:49):
it hurts.
Yes, yes, yes.
Stay tuned for more of womenroad warriors coming up.
Industry movement Truckingmoves America Forward is telling
the story of the industry.
(22:09):
Our safety champions, thewomen of trucking, Independent contractors,
the next generation oftruckers and more.
Help us promote the best ofour industry.
Share your story and what youlove about trucking.
Share images of a momentyou're proud of and join us on social
media.
Learn more@truckingmovesamerica.com.
(22:34):
Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson and
Kathy Tucaro.
Some women don't wait foropportunity, they create it.
That's exactly what LaurenWittenberg Weiner did when the traditional
job market shut her out as amilitary spouse overseas, she built
(22:55):
her own path and ended uptransforming an entire industry.
Lauren founded WWC Global, agovernment contracting powerhouse
that landed a $200 millionU.S. special Operations Command contract,
the largest ever given to awoman owned small business.
She also launched a careernetwork that became part of Hiring
Our Heroes, helping thousandsof military spouses thrive no matter
(23:19):
where life takes them.
Lauren's nonprofit In GearCareer focuses exclusively on military
spouse employment.
She's also the author of thebook Unruly, which shows people how
to stay within the rules whileplotting their own successful, authentic
paths.
Lauren's stories prove thatresilience and vision can turn challenge
into, into triumph.
(23:40):
Lauren, your messaging isterrific here.
I see you did a TEDx talk lastyear on credibility and connection
through thoughtful authenticity.
What is thoughtful authenticity?
So the way that I definethoughtful authenticity is authenticity
so you know your real self,but tempered by the situation that
(24:03):
you find yourself in.
So I am authentic in all ofthe different aspects of my life,
right from being the CEO of$100 million firm to being a hockey
mom, to two teenagers, tobeing the caregiver for elderly parents
and all of those aspects of mylife, I am authentic.
(24:25):
But I am presenting bynecessity a different version of
myself.
And so if I show up in myhockey mom era as the CEO, I'm going
to get looked at differentlyand I'm probably not going to be
accepted as well as if Ishowed up as a, you know, in leggings
(24:47):
and a, and a big parka as ahockey mom.
So those, those kind ofrealizing what situation you find
yourself in and highlightingthe authentic pieces of you that
are relevant to that situationis critical.
Oh, absolutely.
I think sometimes people findit problematic.
(25:08):
They don't necessarily alwaysknow their authentic self.
Yes.
Yeah, there's there it does.
It takes a lot of introspection.
It takes a lot of comfort inyour own skin to be able to, you
know, I joke, I'm a hot mess.
I can't, I'm terrible withfashion and makeup.
Like, you can't get me onto astage without somebody helping me
(25:30):
because I just, it's just notwho I am.
And I'm okay.
And I embrace that as part ofwho I am, and the positives and the
negatives of who I am.
But that means that I knowvery clearly who I am, who I am not,
and what I want to be and howI'm going to present myself that
(25:51):
way effectively.
And that's a good thing.
Now, your book is very intriguing.
It's called Unruly.
And basically when the rulesstop working for you, Unruly is the
guide to navigate yourauthentic path to personalized success.
I like that.
I don't like rules.
Didn't like them as a kid.
I was going to say you and rules.
Really, Shelley?
(26:12):
All right.
What is unruly about?
Does it give people kind of away to navigate some of the roadblocks
that we can encounter with rules?
Absolutely.
So I was the opposite.
I was an absolute consummaterule follower growing up.
I did everything that everyonetold me to do.
(26:33):
I never stepped out of line.
And I still don't actuallybreak rules.
I am way too guilt ridden andway too anxious to ever truly break
rules.
But what I realized is,particularly when I went into the
rulemaking office in the WhiteHouse, how much gray there is both
(26:55):
within the written rules,which are something that we need
to follow.
They do have significantconsequences if we don't actually
follow the written rules mostof the time.
But also the unwritten rules,it's the expectations, the standard
playbook that people playwithin, those limit you in ways that
(27:18):
I think kind of hinder youonto a very standard and very limited
path.
Whereas if you find the spacewithin those rules and those expectations,
you can break free from thecrowd and find your own authentic
path to your own version ofsuccess, whatever that looks like.
(27:41):
So it is interesting, when youlook at laws, rules, there are always
some gray areas.
Of course, attorneys arereally good at finding that gray
area, the exceptions.
And it's a talent to be ableto do that.
But there's so many gray areasin life.
And I think people, if they'recaught up too much by rules, they
(28:02):
limit themselves.
But if they know how to maybepush those boundaries just a little
bit, is that the key to success?
I think so, but I think it isknowing the rules and where those
boundaries truly are andaren't actually that you can find
your own kind of path.
And that's what I did wheneveryone was telling me, oh, no,
(28:23):
no, no, it's against the rulesfor military spouses to work overseas.
And one of the things I heardover and over again was the status
of forces.
Agreement doesn't allow for it.
Well, we went to The Status ofForces Agreement.
Luckily it was translated fromItalian into English because my Italian
wasn't that good.
But we went in and said, whatdoes the Status of Forces Agreement
(28:46):
actually say?
And then what does theimplementing guidance for the Status
of Forces Agreement say?
And then what is the policiesand the processes and the actual
forms say?
And where is the room withinthose to actually say do military
spouses have space to work onthe base?
(29:08):
And it turned out that theSOFA itself, the Status Forces Agreement
was agnostic about it didn'tsay one way or another if we could.
The implementing guidance wasagnostic about it.
And it was really only whenyou got to the procedures that were
written by the staff, thatkind of mid level staff on ground,
(29:29):
and then the form itself thatdidn't have a box to check for military
spouse, that was the onlything that needed to get changed
and those were able to bechanged at that local level.
So we went in and we advocatedfor the change and that's how we
were able to do this for thefirst time.
That's excellent.
So can military spouses workanywhere at this point or are there
(29:51):
still limitations?
There are some limitations there.
You, you know, again, we've got.
These are internationalagreements and each international
agreement changes differently,you know, depending on the country
and what's been negotiated.
But one of the things that wewere able to do very early on was
(30:12):
it turned out the policy onbase that didn't allow for spouses
to become governmentcivilians, not contractors like we
were, but government civilianslike I had been when I was sitting
in the White House.
That was just a simpleprocedure on base that somebody had
interpreted to be safer.
Sanct.
(30:32):
And so we actually were ableto change the procedure on base so
that even though we werereally good at hiring all the military
spouses and it probably hurtus in the long run to allow them
to hire government civiliansinstead of us hiring them, we were
able to get that policychanged on that base and then around
the world to make sure thatall military spouses were able to
(30:56):
work on base effectively atwhatever level they were qualified
for.
That's excellent.
So we changed it and that mademe very happy to kind of see that
not only can I change therules for me and for the people I
was working with, but that wecould make broader changes that were
(31:16):
the right things to do for byknowing the rules and really pushing
the right people to adopt theright rules.
So you're quite the champion.
Try.
I try.
Very, very impressive, I must say.
Thank you.
Yes.
Wow.
I'm just Happy?
I got out of bed and combed myhair today.
Oh, that's most of my daystoo, trust me.
(31:42):
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Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson and
(32:24):
Kathy Tucaro.
Lauren Wittenberg Weiner isliving proof that when the rules
don't fit, you can write yourown playbook.
As a military spouse overseas,she refused to let closed doors define
her future.
Instead, she built WWC Global,a groundbreaking government contracting
(32:45):
firm that went on to earn a$200 million contract award from
the US Special OperationsCommand, the largest ever for a woman
owned small business.
She also launched a careernetwork that became part of hiring
our heroes, helping thousandsof military spouses thrive no matter
where life takes them.
Lauren's nonprofit In GearCareer focuses exclusively on military
(33:07):
spouse employment.
And in her book Unruly Laurenshows us that success isn't about
following the crowd.
It's about staying true toyour purpose and daring to forge
your own way.
You've made such a positiveimpact, Lauren, with so many of the
things you do, you also hadthe nonprofit in Gear Career.
What does that do?
(33:27):
So that actually we realizedfairly early that there was no way
for us to hire all of themilitary spouses, although we were
going to try and we've hired alot of them over the years.
But we realized as we werebuilding the firm that there were
all of these military spousesall around the world who we couldn't
(33:47):
hire and nobody else washiring at that point.
So we wanted to focus on howto serve them on a nonprofit basis
if WWC couldn't hire them.
And we when we first started,we were so concentrated overseas
that when the military spousesmoved from overseas back to the states,
(34:07):
we couldn't keep them on.
Now we've since then been ableto do it and we've had some of our
employees on board even nowwith the new owners.
They've been on board a lot ofthem, 17, 18 years at this point.
But at the time we didn'tthink we were going to be able to
kind of move them around as effectively.
So we started this nonprofit.
(34:29):
A woman named Hayley Utloutcame to us.
She was in an MBA program atUNC working on focused on nonprofits.
And she came to us and said,hey, you guys are the only ones talking
about military spouseemployment at the professional levels.
I really want to start a nonprofit.
And my business partner and Ihad been talking about starting a
(34:52):
nonprofit.
We just didn't have enoughbandwidth to do it.
So we funded Haley and webecame the board, you know, the chair
and the vice chair of theboard, and brought in a couple more
board members and launchedthis in gear career that focused
on the barriers to militaryspouse employment at the professional
levels.
(35:12):
And at that point, honestly,what we kept hearing, you know, there
was one article that was outin one of the military press, you
know, Military Times orwhatever it was years ago, and it
said, Top 10 careers formilitary spouses, just as we were
launching into your career.
And it was dog walker, it wasbagger at the commissary, it was
(35:37):
childcare worker.
And there was nothing remote.
I mean, there was.
I think there was nurse andteacher, of which both of those are
very difficult careers formilitary spouses because of the licensure
issues that are now mostlyfixed, somewhat fixed, but at the
time weren't fixed at all.
So we wanted to change theconversation around military spouses
(36:02):
as, hey, these areprofessional people who want to continue
their professional careers.
So I think we were one of thefirst, if not the first, to really
speak about military spouseemployment in this way.
And then hiring our heroesreally very quickly got into the
military spouse space, and werealized they could scale this a
(36:23):
whole lot better than we could.
So we handed it over to them.
Gosh, it's probably 12 yearsago or so now, and they've taken
it and run with it in anentirely, you know, to an entirely
new level.
That was impressive.
We're still involved.
We still talk to them all the time.
We still support them.
(36:43):
Um, but they were able to.
To kind of take this to thenext level.
And I was perfectly happy togive it over because I knew they
could do it better than I ever could.
Bravo.
You really changed thetrajectory for so many women.
I mean, who can imagine?
I. I'd like to talk to thejournalist who wrote that article,
Top Careers Dog Walker.
Really?
(37:05):
Yeah, I. I think it was.
I think it was still onLinkedIn at that point that I think
I wrote a scathing review of it.
Like, come on, come on.
I could do a lot.
You're right.
I can walk dogs, but I alsohave a PhD from an Ivy League school.
I can do a Whole lot more thanwalking dogs.
Yeah.
You think?
(37:25):
I mean, that was really kindof a slap on the face.
Whoever was that arc probably2010, 2011.
I mean, it was still not thatlong ago.
Amazing.
Yeah.
So your book Unruly.
Do you have some key pointsyou could share with our listeners?
Because I would imagine thisbook, you don't have to necessarily
(37:45):
be a military spouse.
There's that.
There's some great takeaways.
Yeah.
So I've separated the bookinto three parts.
The first one is really learnthe rules and know where to get to
the rules, and that includesthose written rules.
So it goes a little policy wonky.
For a little while, I tried tomake it not too painful to read through,
(38:07):
but on where to actually findthe written rules and how rules work
within our federal and alsostate and local systems and even
at the corporate level andwhat have you.
How the written rules work,how to find them, how to interpret
them, how to find theunwritten rules and really how the
(38:27):
game is played, which isentirely different than finding the
written rules.
And usually it really involvesrelationships and finding the people
who can walk you through theway the game is really, really played.
And then it's figuring outwhere you've got room within the
rules to challenge those rulesor those expectations or those norms.
(38:53):
And then the third part isreally an advocacy piece of once
you've done it, once you'vedone well, and kind of this is the
era that I'm in, although I'vebeen here for a while, is how do
you advocate for changes thatare broader?
How do you make the gamedifferent for the people coming up
after you?
How do you step off the treadmill?
(39:17):
Like I said, one of thekeynotes that I give is don't climb
every mountain, because atsome point you've got your head down,
you're climbing, you'reclimbing, you're climbing.
How do you get off the treadmill?
How do you figure out whenenough is enough?
How do you find that path andkeep going on the right path, but
know when you can stopclimbing that same path?
(39:39):
Maybe get off and chill out for.
A little while, which is excellent.
You're paying it forward inone of these aspects, how you can
open doors for other peopleand you're finding the resources.
What has been fondly calledthe good old boys club.
Oh, yeah, Breaking down thosedoors so you can find the right people
(39:59):
who can say, yeah, this is a shortcut.
This is who you need to talk to.
I mean, those are some of thebarriers that I really think Stop
people in their tracks.
You know, it's funny, I. Ioften say, I know there are plenty
of times when I've gotten tothe table because I'm a woman, and
there was some push to getwomen to the table.
Right.
I know there were a whole lotmore times that I didn't get to the
(40:21):
table because I was a woman.
So I'm going to take the timesthat I got to the table as a woman,
prove myself, and make surethat I take my seat at the table
effectively.
And it's terrible that you'rea token, and it's terrible that people
are looking at you, but, okay,that's what's going to happen.
So I'm going to prove it, andthen I'm going to take that opportunity
(40:42):
to pull more people to thetable, particularly some, maybe that
look like me or are women, butalso people who don't look like me
who have not been at thattable historically.
Or we're going to blow out thetable entirely and just make it standing
room only, right.
So that we don't have to limitwho's at the table except by actual
(41:04):
ability.
So prove you're.
You're able to be there, proveyou can do the work, and I'm going
to pull as many people to thattable as I possibly can.
That makes the change.
That makes the change.
It does.
A little off topic here.
I'm dying of curiosity.
Can you please explain what in the.
World is a panini generation?
I've never heard of thatbefore, so.
(41:25):
So remember, I lived in Italyfor four years.
So you've heard of thesandwich generation, right?
Nope.
Really?
Okay, so I'm living it, sothat's probably why I'm so, so engaged.
But the sandwich generation,the concept is really that you are
sandwiched between so twopieces of bread being your parents
(41:45):
and your kids, and you'resmooshed in between them like the
sandwich meat.
But I always felt like thatwas too quaint because a sandwich
is just like, nicely, youknow, the top and the bottom, and
it's a panini.
On the other hand, it's forceand high heat, and it changes the
(42:05):
entire consistency of the sandwich.
It doesn't look like asandwich anymore.
It's a panini.
And so I said, forget sandwichgeneration, because that's way too
quaint.
I'm putting on all sides frommy kids, from my parents, but also
from work, from friends, frommy husband, and none of them are
(42:26):
bad, and none of them would Iwant to give up.
But it's all pressure and it'sall high pressure and high heat and
really overwhelming to a pointthat it changes everything around.
And so that's what Iofficially have.
Panini.
That's it.
I love it.
Thank you for clarifying that.
(42:47):
Yep.
And wouldn't that be theGeneration X?
Yeah, well, I, you know, it'sfunny, I've heard from people who
are Gen Y who are in it.
I think, you know, it doesn'talways have to be parents and kids
that are doing that are makingyou feel like a panini.
I'm, you know, plenty of myfriends who don't have kids still
feel like it.
So I think it's just anythingthat's pressing on you from multiple
(43:11):
different aspects and I don'tknow, a single woman, or man for
that matter, who doesn't feellike they're getting pressure from
multiple sides makes sense.
So where do people find yourbook and what are some tips you can
share with our listeners fromyour book that will get them motivated,
first of all, to buy your book and.
(43:31):
And also maybe some takeawaysto change their perspectives on what
they can accomplish?
Yeah.
When I went to Italy, I firstsaid, I can't find a job.
Great.
I'll write a novel.
I don't know what I thought Iwas going to write about.
I was 30 years old, so I hadno life experience whatsoever at
that point.
But I always wanted to do it,and now I finally get the chance
(43:53):
to do it, you know, 20 someyears later.
So it's really exciting.
It's fun.
I've had such a great timedoing is available kind of everywhere
that you could order books.
So Amazon, Barnes and Noblebooks, a million Target, they all
have the book.
And really, I think what thebook does is allows you a framework
(44:19):
to look at not breaking the rules.
It feels right now inparticular, we're at a particular
zeitgeist point in time herewhere it seems like a whole lot of
people are breaking the ruleswithout any sort of consequence whatsoever.
There's a whole lot of peoplewho just have sharp elbows, kind
(44:41):
of mess around and try to getahead by getting over people.
And I think the book gives youa bit more of a roadmap to do the
right thing thing and still do well.
So I keep saying over and overnow, you can do well by doing good.
(45:04):
You can be a good person.
You can do the right thing andhelp other people without sacrificing
your own comfort, your ownaccolades, your own professional
development.
You can actually be a goodperson and.
And be successful.
I like that.
(45:24):
Me too.
That works for me.
Absolutely.
What is the link for your book?
Where, where do people find it?
Well, you can find it on myhomepage, which is lauren wittenbergwiner.com
or any of my social media andthere is a link on Simon and Schuster
if you want to go there.
(45:45):
Or you can find it on prettymuch any of the places where you
order from Amazon, from Barnesand Noble Books, a Million Target,
all have a link to order.
Excellent.
Well, this is really the kindof book I think that everybody needs.
And you were saying that a lotof people are trying to get ahead
by like walking on each other and.
(46:06):
Yeah, which, you know, it doesreally seem like that it's a dog
eat dog world out there.
Not that that's anything new,but it does seem like there's an
awful lot of competition,animosity and a lot of inconsiderate
behavior.
And there's enough, the pie'sbig enough for everybody.
It's just a matter of findingyour little niche, right?
(46:26):
I think so.
I think you can.
I really believe in the powerof non transactional relationships.
I'm a huge fan of Adam Grantand particularly his give and take
book because it kind ofencapsulates how I've always lived
my life as a giver and, and itmade me feel a whole lot less of
(46:46):
a sucker for being a giverbecause he's shown in research that
it actually puts you ahead inthe long run.
But above and beyond that, Ithink there is a way to look at relationships
non transactionally.
And I've had a number ofpeople who will come and with sharp
(47:06):
elbows or take from you, andI've had conversations with them
where I'm like, what are you doing?
Why are you doing this?
And they're like, well, thisis what it takes to get ahead.
You don't understand.
This is what I've seen that ittakes to get ahead.
And in their world, they're right.
Because if they're looking atrelationships transactionally, then
(47:29):
all relationships that theyengage in will be transactional.
If you take a broader view ofrelationships where it is not, quid
pro quo, where it is not, I dothis for you and develop therefore
you, you can do that for me.
Where you're not keepingscore, it becomes a much broader
place where you might not getsomething out of somebody that you
(47:52):
helped.
And that's okay with everyonebecause what ends up happening is
your aperture opens up andyou've got supportive, incredible,
broad based villages thatallow for everyone to be lifted up.
And so it's non transactional.
You're not keeping score andyou end up doing better because of
(48:14):
it.
Much better perspective.
You couldn't have said it better.
You know, you have a much morefulfilling life, for sure.
Yeah.
Everything's a transaction.
It's like, why are we really here?
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
Look, there have been plentyof times when I say that we have
(48:35):
left plenty of money on the table.
Right.
For.
For the way that we approach things.
In fact, I can point tospecific places where somebody cheated,
where somebody did somethingwrong and they beat us, you know,
for hundreds of dollars ortens of millions of dollars or in
one case, hundreds of millionsof dollars that they beat us and
(48:58):
we left that money on the table.
I sleep incredibly well at night.
We did very, very well for ourselves.
We might have done.
I would, you know, maybe onone or two transactions, we might
have done better if we had hadsharp elbows like they did.
We lost out because they hadsharp elbows and we chose not to.
But in the long run, I thinkwe did better as a firm because we
(49:21):
did the right thing every time.
And I've done better as ahuman being because I have a much
richer life overall with anincredibly supportive village that
I don't question at all.
And the success of yourbusiness shows it.
You're on the right track,that that is the proper philosophy
(49:42):
and the way to.
To run your life.
I love it.
What is your website again, Lauren?
I'll spell it because it's areally long name.
It's Lauren.
L A U R E N Wittenberg.
W I T T E N G B E R G Weiner.
W E I N E R. So.
It'S LaurenWittenbergweiner.com I have really
(50:05):
enjoyed talking to you.
This has been fascinating.
Thank you.
Yes, this is great.
Thank you guys both for having me.
You're very welcome.
Kathy and I thoroughly enjoyed this.
I love your insight and I loveyour perspectives.
This is the way, you know, ifeveryone ran the world the way you
do, we'd have a better place.
I hope so.
I hope so.
And I hope we can get more andmore and more people to look at the
(50:29):
world this way.
You're making it happen.
Thank you, Lauren.
This has been terrific.
We hope you've enjoyed thislatest episode.
And if you want to hear moreepisodes of Women Road warriors or
learn more about our show, besure to check out womenroadwarriors.com
and please follow us on social media.
And don't forget to subscribeto our podcast on our website.
(50:52):
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(51:12):
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Check us out and please followus wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
You've been listening to WomenRoad warriors with Shelly Johnson
and Kathy Tucaro.
If you want to be a guest onthe show or have a topic or feedback,
(51:35):
email us@sjohnsonomenroadwarriors.com.
This is Women Road warriorswith Shelly Johnson and Kathy Tucaro.
From the corporate office tothe cab of a truck, they're here
to inspire and empower womenin all professions.
So gear down, sit back and enjoy.
(00:24):
Welcome.
We're an award winning showdedicated to empowering women in
every profession throughinspiring stories and expert insights.
No topics off limits on our show.
We power women on the road tosuccess with expert and celebrity
interviews and information you need.
I'm Shelley.
And I'm Kathy.
(00:45):
As we've all heard, necessityis the mother of invention.
Women are experts in doing this.
Lauren Wittenberg Weiner canvouch for that.
She says she survives throughwit and grit.
She's the author of the book Unruly.
She calls herself anaccidental entrepreneur who when
she couldn't get work as amilitary spouse stationed overseas,
(01:07):
found great success in themale dominated field of military
contracting.
She changed the rules of thegame and started WWC Global, one
of the largest privately heldgovernment contracting firms in Tampa
Bay.
WWC Global won the largestaward ever to a woman owned small
business in U.S. specialOperations Command headquarters history.
(01:27):
With a $200 million contractto train and offer military exercise
support with specialoperations like the Navy seals, Green
Berets and others.
Lauren is an amazing mentorfor women and an example of how we
can prevail in business.
Lauren has an undergraduatedegree from the University of Michigan
and a PhD in psychology fromDartmouth College.
(01:48):
Over the past 20 years, shebuilt her company to nearly $100
million in annual revenuebefore selling it in 2022.
WWC Global now employs over250 military spouses and has kept
them employed through manymilitary moves.
Lauren's nonprofit In GearCareer focuses exclusively on military
(02:08):
spouse employment.
It merged with the U.S.chamber of Commerce Foundation's
Hiring Our Heroes program.
Lauren is a tour de force thatwe wanted to talk to to tap into
her insight and serious innovation.
Welcome Lauren.
Thank you for being on theshow with us.
Thank you both so much forhaving me.
I'm really excited about it.
This is so very cool.
(02:29):
You know, you are a serioustrailblazer who's opening doors for
so many women.
How about if you give us thecliff notes on your story and how
all of this snowballed intosuch a terrific enterprise.
Sure.
Well, so I was working andminding my own business, thank you
very much.
In my White House job, I hadgotten a job coming out of graduate
(02:49):
school doing regulatory policyin the Office of Management and Budget,
which is the career side ofthe White House.
So I worked for Clintonadministration And then the second
Bush administration when I metmy now husband and he worked for
the Navy.
So at one point he was aboutto propose to me and got an offer
(03:14):
to go to Naples, Italy.
I thought it was going to be great.
We had just watched under theTuscan sun, so I was like, great,
we're going to go to therolling bucolic hills of Italy.
I looked it up and there werejobs that were open on the base,
so no problem.
And then we got out thereafter having four days to actually
(03:35):
get married.
So he proposed and four dayslater we were married at the justice
of the Peace.
But we, we headed out to Naples.
I found out that Naples wasdefinitely not Tuscany.
And then I figured out that atleast according to the HR office
there, military spousesweren't allowed to have professional
(03:58):
level jobs, at least that'swhat they told me at the time.
So I showed up having been afairly senior government policy officer
and got there and, and wastold I could be a secretary until
I got pregnant.
I didn't do well with that.
Not surprisingly.
(04:19):
I was gonna say that's likealmost a stop in the face.
It was 2004 at this point, soit really wasn't that long ago.
I mean, it, it seems like along time ago now, but.
But it really was way past ourmom's generation where that was kind
of standard and I didn't dowell with that.
So I.
(04:39):
Another military spouse whowas on the base, who had, who was
a lawyer, convinced me tostart a company just so I could get
work back in the States untilI could get back home and start my
career.
And instead somebody turned tous and said, hey, wait a second,
I need somebody smart to dosome analysis.
And that was an anti terrorismforce protection.
(05:00):
I gotta tell you, Shelly,Kathy, I didn't know what anti terrorism
force protection was.
I certainly, I don't think Icould spell it at the time, but I
was like, whatever gets me outof the house, yes, I will do it.
Sign me up, sure, I'll figureit out.
So I started and then within acouple of weeks, somebody said, hey,
(05:22):
wait a second, I need one of you.
Can I have another one of you?
And then I need another one of you.
And you know, if by one of usyou meant a smart military spouse,
gosh, there were a lot of us there.
And we had all been told wecould be secretaries.
And so we just started hiringand we grew quickly and we grew well
(05:43):
by using military spouses.
And then we got a little bitmore strategic and grew outside of
just the military spouse community.
But the first start of it was,yeah, there's a.
There's a ton of reallyimpressive women and men, but that
our, quote, dependence, whichis what we were called on the base
(06:03):
that couldn't work elsewhere.
And so we used them all.
Wow, what an evolution.
And you just kind of hit theground running, not really knowing
what direction to head.
It kind of created your owngps, if you will.
It was fun.
You know what we didn't knowwhat we.
I don't think.
(06:24):
You know, I call myself anoxygen entrepreneur specifically
because I didn't know what Ididn't know.
I didn't know.
I just.
It was a way to get a job andthen a way to keep going, and then
a way to keep building, and then.
And we just figured it out aswe went, and we.
We did it together, all of ustogether, and.
And made it happen.
So how'd you know how to hireand who to hire?
(06:46):
Because basically what youwere doing was.
It was unchartered territory.
And, I mean, you grew thatbusiness into a tremendous enterprise.
Yes, well, who to hire wasvery, very easy, honestly, at least
initially.
Who to hire was very easy.
There were so many incrediblemilitary spouses.
One of our first hires was aHarvard trained lawyer.
(07:08):
Another one was a.
She had a master's in publicpolicy and had been the budget director
for the state of Hawaii.
These were remarkable peoplewho weren't being utilized.
So who to hire was very easy.
How to hire, honestly.
I had come out of theregulatory office at the White House,
(07:29):
so I knew how to look up allthe rules.
I knew how to figure them out,and I knew where to find them.
So I just got really, reallygood at making sure that I knew what
the rules were and figuringout how to.
How to.
How to manage them.
Sure.
Oh, my goodness.
Very impressive.
Wow.
I'd be so overwhelmed.
Yeah, we were, but it's okay.
(07:50):
I mean, we.
You are overwhelmed.
You're never going to not beoverwhelmed when you're building
something like this.
But, you know, when you'redoing anything, it's easy to be overwhelmed
if you're pushing out of yourcomfort zone.
But pushing out of yourcomfort zone is where the growth
happens.
So we were eager to do that,and we kind of.
I mean, I guess I had beenoutside of my comfort zone for four
(08:13):
years before this.
When I was working for theWhite House.
I was never in my comfort zonethere, so I felt comfortable in the
discomfort.
Okay, that makes sense.
Comfortable being uncomfortable.
And when you think about it,life's kind of that way.
People like their securityblankets, but I think when they crawl
under those, sometimes theylimit their potential a million percent.
(08:35):
Yes.
So you're a keynote speaker.
What are some of your messagesfor women who are thinking about
doing something maybe out ofthe ordinary or, or trying to reinvent
the wheel, if you will?
What do you recommend?
Yeah, so one of my favoritekeynotes is Don't Climb Every Mountain,
which is exactly the oppositeof kind of what I did when we were
(08:57):
first building, because I wasclimbing every mountain that was
in front of us.
But at various points in mycareer, everyone has expected me
to do something and it was thenext mountain in front of me.
Right when I was getting myPh.D. it was I was supposed to be
a professor and I kind ofrealized I didn't want to be a professor
(09:20):
and people were kind ofincredulous that I could get there
and I didn't want to.
When we started the company,people were looking at us going,
well, that's not going to work.
How are you going to do that?
Why wouldn't you go back toyour White House job?
You know, why wouldn't you getthis kind of traditional job on base
until you can get back home?
(09:40):
And so we kind of threw outthe expectations at each turn.
And not every time.
Certainly we didn't keepchanging the path every day that
we could, but the times thatwe did, the times that we threw out
those expectations, learnedthe rules, but then threw out the
(10:01):
expectations that outside ofthe actual no kidding rules, and
went in our own path, our ownway, those were the times that we
found the biggest breakout success.
Stay tuned for more of WomenRoad warriors coming up.
(10:23):
Industry Movement TruckingMoves America Forward is telling
the story of the industry.
Our safety championship, theWomen of Trucking, Independent Contractors,
the next generation oftruckers, and more help us promote
the best of our industry.
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(10:44):
media.
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Welcome back to Women RoadRoad warriors with Shelly Johnson
and Kathy Tucaro.
If you're enjoying thisinformative episode of Women Road
(11:04):
Warriors, I wanted to mentionKathy and I explore all kinds of
topics that will power you onthe road to success.
We feature a lot of expertinterviews, plus we feature celebrities
and women who've been trailblazers.
Please check out ourpodcast@womenroadwarriors.com and
click on our Episodes page.
We're also available whereveryou listen to podcasts on all the
(11:25):
major podcast channels likeSpotify, Apple, YouTube, Amazon Music,
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Check us out and bookmark our podcast.
Also, don't forget to followus on social media.
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And tell others about us.
We want to help as many womenas possible.
(11:45):
When opportunity doesn'tknock, some women build their own
door.
And that's exactly what LaurenWittenberg Weiner did.
As a military spouse livingoverseas, Lauren found herself shut
out of the traditional job market.
So she created her ownopportunity and in the process broke
barriers in one of the mostmale dominated industries out there.
(12:07):
Military contracting.
She founded WWC Global, apowerhouse government contracting
firm that went on to win thelargest award ever granted to a woman
owned small business.
But the U.S. specialOperations Command.
A $200 million contractsupporting elite forces like the
Navy seals and green berets.
(12:27):
Over the next 20 years, Laurengrew her company to nearly $100 million
in annual revenue beforeselling it in 2022.
Today, WWC Global employs morethan 250 military spouses, helping
them maintain meaningfulcareers no matter where duty sends
them.
She also launched in gearCareer, now part of the U.S. chamber
(12:49):
of Commerce's Hiring Ourheroes program.
It empowers military spouses nationwide.
Lauren is proof thatdetermination and vision can transform
challenges into empires.
Lauren, you've accomplished somuch in such a short time with your
amazing endeavor that came outof necessity and you've helped so
many people and then you justcontinue to grow kind of.
(13:10):
It was a metamorphosis, wasn't it?
Mm, yeah, yeah, we, we wentfrom just being overseas and just
with military spouses tobeing, like I said, a little bit
more strategic.
And so we pushed into acontract in D.C. at the state Department
and, and that was a very largecontract as well, which we didn't
(13:31):
realize was surprising for asmall business who had never really
done much work outside of the,the overseas contract, military environment.
We won against all the bigconsulting firms which at the time,
I don't think I realized quitehow big of a deal that was.
Now looking back on it, Ican't believe we did it.
But we started pushing intothe D.C. policy market and then we
(13:56):
got further and furtheroutside of just D.C. and overseas.
We moved into Norfolk, wemoved up to New Hampshire, we moved
into Tampa doing all this work.
So I think by the end of the,when we sold the company, I think
we covered 15 time zones.
Wow.
So, you know, we, we kind ofexpanded fairly quickly and and broadly
(14:19):
outside of just the Navy spacewhere we started, into broader dod,
into the State Department,into Homeland Security, into USAID
and a couple of the domesticagencies as well.
You know, just the world ofgovernment contracting, let alone
military contracting, that'sdaunting in and of itself.
(14:39):
And for you to make that kindof inroad is really amazing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
And I love the fact thatyou're helping so many military spouses.
And when you think about it,women shouldn't have to give up their
dreams just because maybetheir husband decides to go into
the military.
I mean, and for you to betold, oh, you could be a secretary.
(15:00):
Really?
Wow.
Yep.
Yeah.
I think one of the things thatwe realized very early on was not
just that it was good for thespouses, which it was not just that.
It was.
It certainly was never charityfor us to do this for the spouses.
It was great business for us.
But above and beyond that, itwas a matter of national security,
(15:23):
because the best officers, noncommissioned officers, even the young
enlisted folks that were thereon base, they were married to the
best and brightest spouses.
And so if we kept the spousesengaged, then we would keep the best
(15:43):
of our military staying in themilitary, if they weren't engaged,
they were going to leave.
You were creating marital harmony.
Trying.
Yes.
Yeah.
What is it?
Some guys have said a happywife is a happy life.
Absolutely.
We crowd all the time.
Exactly it.
Yeah.
We heard that all the time.
(16:04):
We got it from a lot of the.
A lot of the military guysthat we had that we adhered their
wives.
And again, wasn't all wives.
There were plenty ofsurprisingly male spouses whose wives
were in the military.
And we were hiring as well.
Obviously it was skewed muchmore toward women.
(16:24):
But we heard that from a lotof the spouses that we had was happy
wife, happy life.
So they were very right with asister's story.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
So what keeps you up at night?
What are your insights?
How have you been able to doall of these innovations and transitions?
(16:45):
You know, how have I been ableto do them?
I think one bite at a time.
Right?
You cannot possibly know whereyou're going all the time because
you're gonna loseopportunities if you think you know
exactly what path you're on.
So it's really takingadvantage of the opportunities as
(17:06):
they come.
Being prepared to takeadvantage of the opportunities as
they come.
Because if I had, you know,really, if I had told, if anyone
had asked me five yearsbefore, any period of time in my
life where I was going to bein five years.
I hate that question ininterviews, by the way.
But if anyone had told me atany point, where are you going to
(17:29):
be?
I would have gotten it wrongby a magnitude because I would have
underestimated where I wasgoing to be and it would have put
me in a totally different place.
Sure.
So being able to takeadvantage of the opportunities by
being prepared to takeadvantage of them, but recognizing
that you're not going to beable to predict all of them, I think
is what got us to where wegot, you.
(17:51):
Think, people quite often andmaybe more so with women, they limit
their opportunities.
They don't always see them.
They kind of have blinders on.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah.
And I think, I don't thinkthat's just women.
We had plenty of men, youknow, tell us after.
First of all, we had plenty ofpeople, mostly men, tell us when
(18:12):
we first started.
Oh, you can't do that.
That's not possible.
Right.
Or that's against the rules.
That's not the way it's goingto go.
Or, or you're totally wrongbecause military spouses can't possibly
do that kind of level of work.
Or we heard and, and, well,to, to finish that thought when we
heard that, my response wasusually, oh, really, watch me.
(18:36):
Right?
Oh, God, you tell me I can'tdo something.
Oh, yeah, watch this.
Yeah, I mean, me too.
Those were my, those were thefour words that drove my success
more than anything else was,oh, really, watch me.
And again, it's, you know, wedid the work to say I.
When they said, you can't dothat, it's against the rules.
I'd go back to the rules andsay, is it really against the rules?
(18:56):
And almost inevitably iteither wasn't or it was against some
rule.
But there was a different wayto get to where we wanted to get
to.
But then the other thing thatwe heard over and over and over again
was, oh, I thought of that.
Oh, I thought of usingmilitary spouses.
Oh, I had thought that wecould do that.
But you didn't do anythingabout it.
(19:18):
Right.
And so it's great that you'vethought of that.
It's great that you, you know,I joke that I thought of GPS well
before GPS ever came aboutbecause I am directionally clueless.
And I wanted my dad to programsomething into my car that would
tell me, turn here, turn here.
You know, in the 80s when I was.
Was learning to drive, but Ididn't do it because I didn't have
(19:40):
the technology or the know howto do that.
So I didn't come up with gps.
I thought of the, you know, Ithought it would be a great idea,
but you have to actuallyfollow through and make it happen.
So there's lots of naysayersthat say, oh, you can't do that.
And there's lots of people whosay, oh, I, I, I could have done
that, but you didn't.
(20:01):
Kind of interesting how manypeople who have been successful have
had a lot of naysayers.
And I don't know if women hearmore naysayers than men do.
You have people who are justplain jealous, maybe a little bit
lazy.
They don't want to do it.
They'll find every reason whyit can't work.
And I hate the word can't.
Absolutely.
(20:22):
Absolutely.
I feel like women may hearmore naysayers.
I think sometimes men mightjust not hear that because they're
just willing to plow through it.
I don't necessarily thinkpeople tell women, no, maybe they
do, but tell women that'scrazy more often.
(20:43):
I just don't think a lot ofthe men are introspective enough
or kind of open enough to hearthose criticisms.
I think they just keep goingand plow through and their ego lets
them say, I can do anything Iwant to.
But I think that's also whywomen, in the long run, when you
look at the research, end updoing better in many respects because
(21:05):
they're thinking through allof the things that could go wrong.
They're not running headfirstinto a brick wall.
I mean, sometimes it'll stopthem, but if they can power through
it and not let it stop them,they're going to do better than the
men who are like, I can doanything I want to do.
Right?
And that's, I've seen way toomany men who don't listen to advice,
(21:27):
who don't listen to the peoplewho are saying, not necessarily the
naysayers, but the people whoare like, hold on a second, have
you thought of this?
Right.
Men have a good way of somehowclosing down their ears.
Yes.
Very selective perceptionsometimes I think that's true.
Uh huh.
And they'll walk into a brickwall five times before they realize
(21:49):
it hurts.
Yes, yes, yes.
Stay tuned for more of womenroad warriors coming up.
Industry movement Truckingmoves America Forward is telling
the story of the industry.
(22:09):
Our safety champions, thewomen of trucking, Independent contractors,
the next generation oftruckers and more.
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media.
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(22:34):
Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson and
Kathy Tucaro.
Some women don't wait foropportunity, they create it.
That's exactly what LaurenWittenberg Weiner did when the traditional
job market shut her out as amilitary spouse overseas, she built
(22:55):
her own path and ended uptransforming an entire industry.
Lauren founded WWC Global, agovernment contracting powerhouse
that landed a $200 millionU.S. special Operations Command contract,
the largest ever given to awoman owned small business.
She also launched a careernetwork that became part of Hiring
Our Heroes, helping thousandsof military spouses thrive no matter
(23:19):
where life takes them.
Lauren's nonprofit In GearCareer focuses exclusively on military
spouse employment.
She's also the author of thebook Unruly, which shows people how
to stay within the rules whileplotting their own successful, authentic
paths.
Lauren's stories prove thatresilience and vision can turn challenge
into, into triumph.
(23:40):
Lauren, your messaging isterrific here.
I see you did a TEDx talk lastyear on credibility and connection
through thoughtful authenticity.
What is thoughtful authenticity?
So the way that I definethoughtful authenticity is authenticity
so you know your real self,but tempered by the situation that
(24:03):
you find yourself in.
So I am authentic in all ofthe different aspects of my life,
right from being the CEO of$100 million firm to being a hockey
mom, to two teenagers, tobeing the caregiver for elderly parents
and all of those aspects of mylife, I am authentic.
(24:25):
But I am presenting bynecessity a different version of
myself.
And so if I show up in myhockey mom era as the CEO, I'm going
to get looked at differentlyand I'm probably not going to be
accepted as well as if Ishowed up as a, you know, in leggings
(24:47):
and a, and a big parka as ahockey mom.
So those, those kind ofrealizing what situation you find
yourself in and highlightingthe authentic pieces of you that
are relevant to that situationis critical.
Oh, absolutely.
I think sometimes people findit problematic.
(25:08):
They don't necessarily alwaysknow their authentic self.
Yes.
Yeah, there's there it does.
It takes a lot of introspection.
It takes a lot of comfort inyour own skin to be able to, you
know, I joke, I'm a hot mess.
I can't, I'm terrible withfashion and makeup.
Like, you can't get me onto astage without somebody helping me
(25:30):
because I just, it's just notwho I am.
And I'm okay.
And I embrace that as part ofwho I am, and the positives and the
negatives of who I am.
But that means that I knowvery clearly who I am, who I am not,
and what I want to be and howI'm going to present myself that
(25:51):
way effectively.
And that's a good thing.
Now, your book is very intriguing.
It's called Unruly.
And basically when the rulesstop working for you, Unruly is the
guide to navigate yourauthentic path to personalized success.
I like that.
I don't like rules.
Didn't like them as a kid.
I was going to say you and rules.
Really, Shelley?
(26:12):
All right.
What is unruly about?
Does it give people kind of away to navigate some of the roadblocks
that we can encounter with rules?
Absolutely.
So I was the opposite.
I was an absolute consummaterule follower growing up.
I did everything that everyonetold me to do.
(26:33):
I never stepped out of line.
And I still don't actuallybreak rules.
I am way too guilt ridden andway too anxious to ever truly break
rules.
But what I realized is,particularly when I went into the
rulemaking office in the WhiteHouse, how much gray there is both
(26:55):
within the written rules,which are something that we need
to follow.
They do have significantconsequences if we don't actually
follow the written rules mostof the time.
But also the unwritten rules,it's the expectations, the standard
playbook that people playwithin, those limit you in ways that
(27:18):
I think kind of hinder youonto a very standard and very limited
path.
Whereas if you find the spacewithin those rules and those expectations,
you can break free from thecrowd and find your own authentic
path to your own version ofsuccess, whatever that looks like.
(27:41):
So it is interesting, when youlook at laws, rules, there are always
some gray areas.
Of course, attorneys arereally good at finding that gray
area, the exceptions.
And it's a talent to be ableto do that.
But there's so many gray areasin life.
And I think people, if they'recaught up too much by rules, they
(28:02):
limit themselves.
But if they know how to maybepush those boundaries just a little
bit, is that the key to success?
I think so, but I think it isknowing the rules and where those
boundaries truly are andaren't actually that you can find
your own kind of path.
And that's what I did wheneveryone was telling me, oh, no,
(28:23):
no, no, it's against the rulesfor military spouses to work overseas.
And one of the things I heardover and over again was the status
of forces.
Agreement doesn't allow for it.
Well, we went to The Status ofForces Agreement.
Luckily it was translated fromItalian into English because my Italian
wasn't that good.
But we went in and said, whatdoes the Status of Forces Agreement
(28:46):
actually say?
And then what does theimplementing guidance for the Status
of Forces Agreement say?
And then what is the policiesand the processes and the actual
forms say?
And where is the room withinthose to actually say do military
spouses have space to work onthe base?
(29:08):
And it turned out that theSOFA itself, the Status Forces Agreement
was agnostic about it didn'tsay one way or another if we could.
The implementing guidance wasagnostic about it.
And it was really only whenyou got to the procedures that were
written by the staff, thatkind of mid level staff on ground,
(29:29):
and then the form itself thatdidn't have a box to check for military
spouse, that was the onlything that needed to get changed
and those were able to bechanged at that local level.
So we went in and we advocatedfor the change and that's how we
were able to do this for thefirst time.
That's excellent.
So can military spouses workanywhere at this point or are there
(29:51):
still limitations?
There are some limitations there.
You, you know, again, we've got.
These are internationalagreements and each international
agreement changes differently,you know, depending on the country
and what's been negotiated.
But one of the things that wewere able to do very early on was
(30:12):
it turned out the policy onbase that didn't allow for spouses
to become governmentcivilians, not contractors like we
were, but government civilianslike I had been when I was sitting
in the White House.
That was just a simpleprocedure on base that somebody had
interpreted to be safer.
Sanct.
(30:32):
And so we actually were ableto change the procedure on base so
that even though we werereally good at hiring all the military
spouses and it probably hurtus in the long run to allow them
to hire government civiliansinstead of us hiring them, we were
able to get that policychanged on that base and then around
the world to make sure thatall military spouses were able to
(30:56):
work on base effectively atwhatever level they were qualified
for.
That's excellent.
So we changed it and that mademe very happy to kind of see that
not only can I change therules for me and for the people I
was working with, but that wecould make broader changes that were
(31:16):
the right things to do for byknowing the rules and really pushing
the right people to adopt theright rules.
So you're quite the champion.
Try.
I try.
Very, very impressive, I must say.
Thank you.
Yes.
Wow.
I'm just Happy?
I got out of bed and combed myhair today.
Oh, that's most of my daystoo, trust me.
(31:42):
Stay tuned for more of WomenRoad Warriors.
Coming up.
Industry movement TruckingMoves America Forward is telling
the story of the industry.
Our safety champions, thewomen of trucking, independent contractors,
the next generation oftruckers, and more.
Help us promote the best ofour industry.
(32:04):
Share your story and what youlove about trucking.
Share images of a momentyou're proud of and join us on social
media.
Learn more@truckingmovesamerica.com.
Welcome back to Women Roadwarriors with Shelly Johnson and
(32:24):
Kathy Tucaro.
Lauren Wittenberg Weiner isliving proof that when the rules
don't fit, you can write yourown playbook.
As a military spouse overseas,she refused to let closed doors define
her future.
Instead, she built WWC Global,a groundbreaking government contracting
(32:45):
firm that went on to earn a$200 million contract award from
the US Special OperationsCommand, the largest ever for a woman
owned small business.
She also launched a careernetwork that became part of hiring
our heroes, helping thousandsof military spouses thrive no matter
where life takes them.
Lauren's nonprofit In GearCareer focuses exclusively on military
(33:07):
spouse employment.
And in her book Unruly Laurenshows us that success isn't about
following the crowd.
It's about staying true toyour purpose and daring to forge
your own way.
You've made such a positiveimpact, Lauren, with so many of the
things you do, you also hadthe nonprofit in Gear Career.
What does that do?
(33:27):
So that actually we realizedfairly early that there was no way
for us to hire all of themilitary spouses, although we were
going to try and we've hired alot of them over the years.
But we realized as we werebuilding the firm that there were
all of these military spousesall around the world who we couldn't
(33:47):
hire and nobody else washiring at that point.
So we wanted to focus on howto serve them on a nonprofit basis
if WWC couldn't hire them.
And we when we first started,we were so concentrated overseas
that when the military spousesmoved from overseas back to the states,
(34:07):
we couldn't keep them on.
Now we've since then been ableto do it and we've had some of our
employees on board even nowwith the new owners.
They've been on board a lot ofthem, 17, 18 years at this point.
But at the time we didn'tthink we were going to be able to
kind of move them around as effectively.
So we started this nonprofit.
(34:29):
A woman named Hayley Utloutcame to us.
She was in an MBA program atUNC working on focused on nonprofits.
And she came to us and said,hey, you guys are the only ones talking
about military spouseemployment at the professional levels.
I really want to start a nonprofit.
And my business partner and Ihad been talking about starting a
(34:52):
nonprofit.
We just didn't have enoughbandwidth to do it.
So we funded Haley and webecame the board, you know, the chair
and the vice chair of theboard, and brought in a couple more
board members and launchedthis in gear career that focused
on the barriers to militaryspouse employment at the professional
levels.
(35:12):
And at that point, honestly,what we kept hearing, you know, there
was one article that was outin one of the military press, you
know, Military Times orwhatever it was years ago, and it
said, Top 10 careers formilitary spouses, just as we were
launching into your career.
And it was dog walker, it wasbagger at the commissary, it was
(35:37):
childcare worker.
And there was nothing remote.
I mean, there was.
I think there was nurse andteacher, of which both of those are
very difficult careers formilitary spouses because of the licensure
issues that are now mostlyfixed, somewhat fixed, but at the
time weren't fixed at all.
So we wanted to change theconversation around military spouses
(36:02):
as, hey, these areprofessional people who want to continue
their professional careers.
So I think we were one of thefirst, if not the first, to really
speak about military spouseemployment in this way.
And then hiring our heroesreally very quickly got into the
military spouse space, and werealized they could scale this a
(36:23):
whole lot better than we could.
So we handed it over to them.
Gosh, it's probably 12 yearsago or so now, and they've taken
it and run with it in anentirely, you know, to an entirely
new level.
That was impressive.
We're still involved.
We still talk to them all the time.
We still support them.
(36:43):
Um, but they were able to.
To kind of take this to thenext level.
And I was perfectly happy togive it over because I knew they
could do it better than I ever could.
Bravo.
You really changed thetrajectory for so many women.
I mean, who can imagine?
I. I'd like to talk to thejournalist who wrote that article,
Top Careers Dog Walker.
Really?
(37:05):
Yeah, I. I think it was.
I think it was still onLinkedIn at that point that I think
I wrote a scathing review of it.
Like, come on, come on.
I could do a lot.
You're right.
I can walk dogs, but I alsohave a PhD from an Ivy League school.
I can do a Whole lot more thanwalking dogs.
Yeah.
You think?
(37:25):
I mean, that was really kindof a slap on the face.
Whoever was that arc probably2010, 2011.
I mean, it was still not thatlong ago.
Amazing.
Yeah.
So your book Unruly.
Do you have some key pointsyou could share with our listeners?
Because I would imagine thisbook, you don't have to necessarily
(37:45):
be a military spouse.
There's that.
There's some great takeaways.
Yeah.
So I've separated the bookinto three parts.
The first one is really learnthe rules and know where to get to
the rules, and that includesthose written rules.
So it goes a little policy wonky.
For a little while, I tried tomake it not too painful to read through,
(38:07):
but on where to actually findthe written rules and how rules work
within our federal and alsostate and local systems and even
at the corporate level andwhat have you.
How the written rules work,how to find them, how to interpret
them, how to find theunwritten rules and really how the
(38:27):
game is played, which isentirely different than finding the
written rules.
And usually it really involvesrelationships and finding the people
who can walk you through theway the game is really, really played.
And then it's figuring outwhere you've got room within the
rules to challenge those rulesor those expectations or those norms.
(38:53):
And then the third part isreally an advocacy piece of once
you've done it, once you'vedone well, and kind of this is the
era that I'm in, although I'vebeen here for a while, is how do
you advocate for changes thatare broader?
How do you make the gamedifferent for the people coming up
after you?
How do you step off the treadmill?
(39:17):
Like I said, one of thekeynotes that I give is don't climb
every mountain, because atsome point you've got your head down,
you're climbing, you'reclimbing, you're climbing.
How do you get off the treadmill?
How do you figure out whenenough is enough?
How do you find that path andkeep going on the right path, but
know when you can stopclimbing that same path?
(39:39):
Maybe get off and chill out for.
A little while, which is excellent.
You're paying it forward inone of these aspects, how you can
open doors for other peopleand you're finding the resources.
What has been fondly calledthe good old boys club.
Oh, yeah, Breaking down thosedoors so you can find the right people
(39:59):
who can say, yeah, this is a shortcut.
This is who you need to talk to.
I mean, those are some of thebarriers that I really think Stop
people in their tracks.
You know, it's funny, I. Ioften say, I know there are plenty
of times when I've gotten tothe table because I'm a woman, and
there was some push to getwomen to the table.
Right.
I know there were a whole lotmore times that I didn't get to the
(40:21):
table because I was a woman.
So I'm going to take the timesthat I got to the table as a woman,
prove myself, and make surethat I take my seat at the table
effectively.
And it's terrible that you'rea token, and it's terrible that people
are looking at you, but, okay,that's what's going to happen.
So I'm going to prove it, andthen I'm going to take that opportunity
(40:42):
to pull more people to thetable, particularly some, maybe that
look like me or are women, butalso people who don't look like me
who have not been at thattable historically.
Or we're going to blow out thetable entirely and just make it standing
room only, right.
So that we don't have to limitwho's at the table except by actual
(41:04):
ability.
So prove you're.
You're able to be there, proveyou can do the work, and I'm going
to pull as many people to thattable as I possibly can.
That makes the change.
That makes the change.
It does.
A little off topic here.
I'm dying of curiosity.
Can you please explain what in the.
World is a panini generation?
I've never heard of thatbefore, so.
(41:25):
So remember, I lived in Italyfor four years.
So you've heard of thesandwich generation, right?
Nope.
Really?
Okay, so I'm living it, sothat's probably why I'm so, so engaged.
But the sandwich generation,the concept is really that you are
sandwiched between so twopieces of bread being your parents
(41:45):
and your kids, and you'resmooshed in between them like the
sandwich meat.
But I always felt like thatwas too quaint because a sandwich
is just like, nicely, youknow, the top and the bottom, and
it's a panini.
On the other hand, it's forceand high heat, and it changes the
(42:05):
entire consistency of the sandwich.
It doesn't look like asandwich anymore.
It's a panini.
And so I said, forget sandwichgeneration, because that's way too
quaint.
I'm putting on all sides frommy kids, from my parents, but also
from work, from friends, frommy husband, and none of them are
(42:26):
bad, and none of them would Iwant to give up.
But it's all pressure and it'sall high pressure and high heat and
really overwhelming to a pointthat it changes everything around.
And so that's what Iofficially have.
Panini.
That's it.
I love it.
Thank you for clarifying that.
(42:47):
Yep.
And wouldn't that be theGeneration X?
Yeah, well, I, you know, it'sfunny, I've heard from people who
are Gen Y who are in it.
I think, you know, it doesn'talways have to be parents and kids
that are doing that are makingyou feel like a panini.
I'm, you know, plenty of myfriends who don't have kids still
feel like it.
So I think it's just anythingthat's pressing on you from multiple
(43:11):
different aspects and I don'tknow, a single woman, or man for
that matter, who doesn't feellike they're getting pressure from
multiple sides makes sense.
So where do people find yourbook and what are some tips you can
share with our listeners fromyour book that will get them motivated,
first of all, to buy your book and.
(43:31):
And also maybe some takeawaysto change their perspectives on what
they can accomplish?
Yeah.
When I went to Italy, I firstsaid, I can't find a job.
Great.
I'll write a novel.
I don't know what I thought Iwas going to write about.
I was 30 years old, so I hadno life experience whatsoever at
that point.
But I always wanted to do it,and now I finally get the chance
(43:53):
to do it, you know, 20 someyears later.
So it's really exciting.
It's fun.
I've had such a great timedoing is available kind of everywhere
that you could order books.
So Amazon, Barnes and Noblebooks, a million Target, they all
have the book.
And really, I think what thebook does is allows you a framework
(44:19):
to look at not breaking the rules.
It feels right now inparticular, we're at a particular
zeitgeist point in time herewhere it seems like a whole lot of
people are breaking the ruleswithout any sort of consequence whatsoever.
There's a whole lot of peoplewho just have sharp elbows, kind
(44:41):
of mess around and try to getahead by getting over people.
And I think the book gives youa bit more of a roadmap to do the
right thing thing and still do well.
So I keep saying over and overnow, you can do well by doing good.
(45:04):
You can be a good person.
You can do the right thing andhelp other people without sacrificing
your own comfort, your ownaccolades, your own professional
development.
You can actually be a goodperson and.
And be successful.
I like that.
(45:24):
Me too.
That works for me.
Absolutely.
What is the link for your book?
Where, where do people find it?
Well, you can find it on myhomepage, which is lauren wittenbergwiner.com
or any of my social media andthere is a link on Simon and Schuster
if you want to go there.
(45:45):
Or you can find it on prettymuch any of the places where you
order from Amazon, from Barnesand Noble Books, a Million Target,
all have a link to order.
Excellent.
Well, this is really the kindof book I think that everybody needs.
And you were saying that a lotof people are trying to get ahead
by like walking on each other and.
(46:06):
Yeah, which, you know, it doesreally seem like that it's a dog
eat dog world out there.
Not that that's anything new,but it does seem like there's an
awful lot of competition,animosity and a lot of inconsiderate
behavior.
And there's enough, the pie'sbig enough for everybody.
It's just a matter of findingyour little niche, right?
(46:26):
I think so.
I think you can.
I really believe in the powerof non transactional relationships.
I'm a huge fan of Adam Grantand particularly his give and take
book because it kind ofencapsulates how I've always lived
my life as a giver and, and itmade me feel a whole lot less of
(46:46):
a sucker for being a giverbecause he's shown in research that
it actually puts you ahead inthe long run.
But above and beyond that, Ithink there is a way to look at relationships
non transactionally.
And I've had a number ofpeople who will come and with sharp
(47:06):
elbows or take from you, andI've had conversations with them
where I'm like, what are you doing?
Why are you doing this?
And they're like, well, thisis what it takes to get ahead.
You don't understand.
This is what I've seen that ittakes to get ahead.
And in their world, they're right.
Because if they're looking atrelationships transactionally, then
(47:29):
all relationships that theyengage in will be transactional.
If you take a broader view ofrelationships where it is not, quid
pro quo, where it is not, I dothis for you and develop therefore
you, you can do that for me.
Where you're not keepingscore, it becomes a much broader
place where you might not getsomething out of somebody that you
(47:52):
helped.
And that's okay with everyonebecause what ends up happening is
your aperture opens up andyou've got supportive, incredible,
broad based villages thatallow for everyone to be lifted up.
And so it's non transactional.
You're not keeping score andyou end up doing better because of
(48:14):
it.
Much better perspective.
You couldn't have said it better.
You know, you have a much morefulfilling life, for sure.
Yeah.
Everything's a transaction.
It's like, why are we really here?
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
Look, there have been plentyof times when I say that we have
(48:35):
left plenty of money on the table.
Right.
For.
For the way that we approach things.
In fact, I can point tospecific places where somebody cheated,
where somebody did somethingwrong and they beat us, you know,
for hundreds of dollars ortens of millions of dollars or in
one case, hundreds of millionsof dollars that they beat us and
(48:58):
we left that money on the table.
I sleep incredibly well at night.
We did very, very well for ourselves.
We might have done.
I would, you know, maybe onone or two transactions, we might
have done better if we had hadsharp elbows like they did.
We lost out because they hadsharp elbows and we chose not to.
But in the long run, I thinkwe did better as a firm because we
(49:21):
did the right thing every time.
And I've done better as ahuman being because I have a much
richer life overall with anincredibly supportive village that
I don't question at all.
And the success of yourbusiness shows it.
You're on the right track,that that is the proper philosophy
(49:42):
and the way to.
To run your life.
I love it.
What is your website again, Lauren?
I'll spell it because it's areally long name.
It's Lauren.
L A U R E N Wittenberg.
W I T T E N G B E R G Weiner.
W E I N E R. So.
It'S LaurenWittenbergweiner.com I have really
(50:05):
enjoyed talking to you.
This has been fascinating.
Thank you.
Yes, this is great.
Thank you guys both for having me.
You're very welcome.
Kathy and I thoroughly enjoyed this.
I love your insight and I loveyour perspectives.
This is the way, you know, ifeveryone ran the world the way you
do, we'd have a better place.
I hope so.
I hope so.
And I hope we can get more andmore and more people to look at the
(50:29):
world this way.
You're making it happen.
Thank you, Lauren.
This has been terrific.
We hope you've enjoyed thislatest episode.
And if you want to hear moreepisodes of Women Road warriors or
learn more about our show, besure to check out womenroadwarriors.com
and please follow us on social media.
And don't forget to subscribeto our podcast on our website.
(50:52):
We also have a selection ofPodcasts Just for Women There are
a series of podcasts fromdifferent podcasters, so if you're
in the mood for women'spodcasts, just click the Power network
tab on womenroadwarriors.comyoum'll have a variety of shows to
listen to anytime you want to.
Podcasts Made for Women WomenRoad warriors is on all the major
(51:12):
podcast channels like Apple,Spotify, Amazon, Audible, YouTube,
and others.
Check us out and please followus wherever you listen to podcasts.
Thanks for listening.
You've been listening to WomenRoad warriors with Shelly Johnson
and Kathy Tucaro.
If you want to be a guest onthe show or have a topic or feedback,
(51:35):
email us@sjohnsonomenroadwarriors.com.
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