Chief Medical Examiner Helps Protect the Living By Solving the Mysteries of How People Died, with Dr. Deirdre Amaro of the Utah Office of the Medical Examiner

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Deirdre Amaro (00:00):
With autopsy, I get to see the heart connected

(00:02):
to the lungs connected toeverything. I see how it's still
all connected together, and Ilove that. Now there's no
heartbeat, so there's noelectrical activity, and I can't
do certain other measurements,but I can see how everything is
connected together. And I get topull in the patient's social
history, their medical history,toxicology, histology. Try to
pull together all thesedifferent pieces to capture the

(00:26):
best story of why this persondied, and I find that very
satisfying.

Julie Berman - Host (00:34):
Hey everybody. I'm Julie, and
welcome to Women with cool jobs.
Each episode will feature womenwith unique, trailblazing and
innovative careers. We'll talkabout how she got here, what
life is like now, and actionablesteps that you can take to go on
a similar path or one that's allyour own. This podcast is about

(00:55):
empowering you. It's aboutempowering you to dream big and
to be inspired, you'll hear fromincredible women in a wide
variety of fields, and hopefullysome that you've never heard of
before, women who build robotsand roadways, firefighters, C
suite professionals, surroundedby men, social media mavens,

(01:16):
entrepreneurs and More. I'm soglad we get to go on this
journey together. Helloeverybody. This is Julie Berman,
and welcome to another episodeof women with cool jobs. So
today I have such a cool guestin. It's this type of episode
in, this type of guest with areally cool job that I never

(01:37):
would have thought to bring ontothe podcast, like who I maybe
didn't even know existed, and Iget so excited like this is when
I get so excited to be able tobring this type of this type of
cool job and the experience ofthis amazing woman to you and to
show you what's possible. Sotoday, the guest is Dr Deirdre

(02:00):
Amaru. She is the chief medicalexaminer of the Utah office of
the medical examiner, which isome for short, and she oversees
the centralized statewidemedical examiner system for the
entire state of Utah. And sothis is a really fascinating
conversation, because,essentially, she talks about how

(02:21):
she helps tell the story of theperson who died. She, you know,
like everyone in on her team,and she herself, they are
problem solvers. They are tryingto figure out the puzzle pieces
and the really fascinating partof this. And she talks about
this, which is, which issomething that I had not, I

(02:41):
would not have come to thisconclusion. But it sounds like
it is out there is that, like alot of times, people who are in
her role of medical examiner, orpeople who are in that industry,
that people don't who are doingthat, that they really don't
want to work with living people,and so they're doing this work

(03:03):
with dead people. And I thinkthat's such an interesting thing
to talk about and to share, andthat actually it's quite a
fallacy. It's like somethingthat's completely untrue,
because she talks about thereason, this huge underlying
reason, for why she feels sostrongly about the work that she
does, working with people whowho have died and and looking at

(03:23):
how they died and and looking atsome of the things that caused
it in the situation, and indoing this really hard, really
important work, is because theyactually really are so
passionate about helping thosewho are still living, and she
talks about how she sees this,this role as a huge part of

(03:46):
actually positively benefitingthe public health systems and
solving problems that come upthat her and her colleagues see
over time, because they are ableto connect us. And she did
mention offline, I believe thatit that it was really

(04:08):
interesting in in the early, Ithink it was early 80s, and like
the very end of 1970s theyactually had someone who's in a
similar, like a similar job, whois a medical examiner, who kept
realizing that, why were theyseeing all these these infant
deaths, and when it came to carcrashes, and so that's how

(04:29):
infant car seats actually weredeveloped. It was because
someone saw that there was atrend, and they were able to
connect the dots and say, oh mygosh, this is a problem. Let's
do something to keep theseyoung, these young little people
safe. And that's how car seatsgot invented. So it's really

(04:49):
fascinating that she has this,this viewpoint of like,
understanding how people die,actually. Actually helps her and
her colleagues serve the livingin such a bigger way. And I
loved that perspective. I wouldhave never put that together,
and I think it's so critical. Asyou hear her talk about her cool

(05:10):
job and the work that she doesand the work that her colleagues
do, it's such an interestingthread to pick up on. And she
has so many, so many incredibledegrees and other credits to her
name. She's so so smart, so Iwant to brag about her here. And

(05:30):
the other interesting thingabout her story is that she
originally started out and sheshe was thinking about being a
pediatrician, and so you canhear her reason for, actually,
why she ended up going into thisfield and some of the different
pieces of her job like her jobbecause she is in this, like
chief, you know, right, thisexecutive level role, she

(05:52):
actually has some of the peoplemanagement and organizational
management functions that arepart of her job. But then she
actually still also does thefunction of the medical
examiner, which is a super handson role where she's actually,
like with, I mean, she'sexamining bodies of people

(06:14):
who've who've passed, and doingautopsies and all these
different things in that. And soit's really, really, I mean,
it's, it's really mind blowing,actually, like I knew nothing
about, about this career, um,and so it was really wonderful
to hear. And the other thingthat I just wanted to share

(06:34):
really briefly, you'll hear someof it in the interview, but I
just wanted to say it at theoutset is that to her, her job
in like specifically, her heroffice, the ome office of the
medical examiner for Utah, theyinvestigate all sudden,
unexpected violence, suspiciousor unattended deaths that happen
in the state of Utah. They'retrying to find out how did

(06:57):
people die? So this can includedetermining the cause of death,
the manner of death. So it'slike, you know, was it an
injury, an illness, and was itnatural? Was it an accident? Was
it a homicide? And again, likeeverything for them, links back
to this idea of public healthand to benefit the living. So

(07:17):
such a really, really wonderfulepisode for for so many reasons,
I loved having this conversationbecause it was it's just
something that I don't know. Inever imagined that I would be
doing. And yet it exists, andshe exists, and her work is so
critical. They're doing suchimportant work, and her and her

(07:39):
and her colleagues like you canhear how passionate she is about
her job. So enjoy this episodewith Dr Deirdre, and thank you
so much for being here if youhaven't yet and you have Spotify
where you're listening or you'relistening on Apple podcasts,
please. Please do me a hugefavor, scroll to where you can
write a review. Submit a reviewtakes like, one or two minutes,

(08:01):
and also, if you're loving it,give me a five star rating. It
just shares this out with theworld to even more people,
showing what women are doingnow, showing what's possible.
And I really appreciate it somuch. So enjoy this episode, and
thank you so much for takingyour time to be here. Alright,
hello, everybody. We are here onanother episode of women with

(08:24):
cool jobs, and I have such awonderful guest today. I'm so
excited to have her on. Her nameis Dr Deirdre Amaro. She is the
chief medical examiner of theUtah office of the medical
examiner, and this means thatshe oversees the entire
statewide medical examinersystem for the state of Utah,

(08:44):
which is almost an 85,000 milearea, so you have a huge
responsibility that you have,like under this job, and also I
love and we're going to talkabout this, because I think this
is so fascinating. But when wechatted before and I learned
some of the details of your ofyour job, because I really knew
nothing about this. I thought itwas so fascinating how you're

(09:05):
also truly so passionate abouthow you and your team, how you
guys, actually benefit thehealth of the living and so I
really thought that was such abeautiful emphasis, because it
wasn't obvious to me. So we'redefinitely going to talk about
that. So I want to say, and I'mgoing to share more in the intro
about kind of the details andthe nuances that we don't get to

(09:26):
in this interview. But can yougive us, like, in a nutshell,
how do you describe your job?
Like, what would you say ifthere was someone who's asking
you, and they're like, I have noclue what you do? How would you
explain in in layman's terms andbasic terms, like, what? What is
your cool job? Yes,

well, thank you so much for having me on a
podcast. This was pretty coolfor my end as well. Frankly, my
answer really depends on myaudience. So most of the time
when people just casually askme, what I do, I just say, Oh, I
work for the state. I. And Julieis very good at deflecting any
further questions, because thatsounds so boring. In certain

(10:06):
audiences where I know it'sacceptable and will be
receivable, I say, Oh, I kind ofdead people, just to sound a
little bit creepy. But then ifsomeone's interested like you
and wants to have more of a realanswer, I would say that I am a
doctor who is specificallytrained to determine cause of
death and manner of death basedon post mortem, after death

(10:29):
examinations, okay, or in otherwords, figure out why somebody
died,

yeah. And I think that's so interesting that
you in your job like have tovary your response. And so maybe
we can talk about that a littlebit on just depending right on
your audience. Because I think,you know, it is interesting when
I, when I first saw like, like,you and your your job come
through, I was like, oh, like, Idon't know how to have this

(10:55):
conversation. I've never had aconversation that actually
involves death in this way, andit's but for me, who's like,
kind of squeamish, you know,honestly, it's like, I was like,
Oh, this is a really interestingconversation to have, but also
it's such an importantconversation to have, because
you and and the work you do andthe people you work with play

(11:15):
such a really important part inso many things. I think that
maybe, like those of us ineveryday life who are not aware
of what you do besides justwatching perhaps a television
show, which I'm sure is notsuper, super accurate for sure,
yeah, so we don't have the fullview of what you do. So I'm just

(11:37):
really honored to have this,this conversation. And before we
jump in, I do want to mention,like, a few other things that I
think might be helpful that thatyou had shared earlier, just to
give people, kind of like anunderstanding of in a little bit
more depth of like, what you do.
And then we're going to jump inso you investigate all sudden,
unexpected, violent, suspiciousor attended deaths that happen

(12:00):
in the state of Utah. And as youmentioned, you try to find out
how people died, and youdetermine the cause of death, so
like the injury, the illness,the disease that made the person
die, and the manner of death,which includes, like, a category
like a natural like a naturalcause, an accident, homicide,
suicide, are undetermined, andso I, I am really interested in

(12:23):
for you, because you do thisjob, and you do talk about how
it affects public health. Like,let's start a little bit there,
and then we're going to go backand kind of like, talk about how
you got here. But I think that'sa beautiful place to start,
because that, like we said inthe beginning, it's kind of like
two pieces of I know how youthink of your work, but that

(12:46):
aren't necessarily, maybeobvious to people who are
listening, or people who whoknow about even your job. So how
do you consider this area ofwhat you do, and how does it
benefit the living.

Yes, I love talking about this, because as
you, as you so correctly pointedout, most people don't think
about this aspect of what we doin the medical examiner's
office, but really, I wouldpulling a number out of
somewhere, say that over 90% ofwhat we do is for the living,
not so much for the dead. So letme try to explain, right? So

(13:22):
when we're figuring out howsomeone died, the for the dead
person is trying to tell theirstory, right? But then figuring
out why somebody died also helpsthe family. Why did their loved
one died, what happened to them?
I can potentially provide thatsense of closure also, as many
of us might be aware, so many ofthe diseases that affect living

(13:43):
patients have genetic causes.
And so when you go to the doctorand they ask you, alright,
what's your family history? Youknow, did your mother have
breast cancer? Did your fatherhave colon cancer? So At what
ages, etc, when we do an autopsysometime, which is a very
thorough doctor's exam,basically, it's a physical exam

(14:05):
with a surgical exam. Sometimeswe encounter a hidden cancer
that the person may have had, soit may not have killed them, but
the fact that they had itbecomes very important
information for their survivingfamily members, because that
could potentially raise theirown increased risk of having
that cancer, and if they knowabout this, then they can

(14:26):
potentially get the appropriatescreening from their healthcare
providers and catch it early andnot die of that cancer on a
bigger, regional and evennational level, when we fill out
a death certificate, when wecome up With the cause of death
and manner of deathdeterminations, why somebody
died. That is a medicaldiagnosis, and like every

(14:46):
medical diagnosis, it getsturned into a it's called an ICD
10 code, and that gets turnedinto mortality data, which is
housed at the national level.
And that mortality data is whatdrives public health
intervention. When you see thosereports about such and such was
the leading cause of death?
Well, that comes from the workwe do. That comes from the death

(15:07):
certificates. So we are seeingthe terminal results of public
health problems in ourcommunities and in Utah, since
we have a statewide medicalexaminer system, we are seeing
the terminal results of publichealth problems for the entire
state. And it goes beyond just,you know, hidden cancers, it's
what drugs are killing people inour communities, and we're able
to look further into that, why,where, who, how, and if we can

(15:30):
figure out the why, then we havea greater chance of preventing
it and preventing future deaths.

Wow. So it's almost like you're noticing
trends or like through lines areconnecting the dots as well for
these, one

of our big goals to identify the to help
identify those trends and what'skilling people in our
communities, with the idea beingthat we can help inform local
groups, national groups, on whatthose issues are and help craft
interventions that aresuccessful in preventing those
deaths.

Yeah, wow, that's really incredible. And
thank you for kind of explainingthat. It's usually opposite of
how I do an interview. But Ijust thought in this case, it's
like such a beautiful way tostart to kind of see that, that
aspect of it. So I want to goback. How did you get started in
this field? Like, or how did youend up here? And because you

(16:24):
have, you have multiple degrees,you have just, like, a lot of
experience before this job. SoI'd love to hear kind of like,
what, what brought you here?

So I decided to go to medical school. Sort of
from a lack of imagination, Ididn't know what else to do. I
knew I didn't want to go tobusiness school or law school,
and I had worked a couple yearsin a graduate school Physics
Laboratory, and I thought, no,no. It seems that in graduate
school you learn more and moreabout less and less. I much

(16:56):
appreciate a broaderunderstanding of things. So I
went to medical school thinking,you want to be a pediatrician.
Because I really like cute,colorful things, and I thought
it'd be so much fun to dispenseSnoopy band aids and do things
like that. But pretty quickly,on in medical school, I realized
that sick kids is not for me.
Dying patients is not for me. Ilearned that when someone is

(17:21):
suffering, that I feel thatgreatly, and it pains me. But in
pathology and forensicpathology, my patients may have
suffered before they can come tome, but once they come to me,
they are no longer sufferingbecause they're they're dead,
yeah, and that is a hugedifference for me personally.
Yeah,

that's interesting. And did you always
have, like, an interest inscience and things growing up?
Like, were you, I know, I hadfriends who got really excited
when they got to dissect things,and I was the opposite. I was
like, Please get me out of theroom. But were you? Were you,
like, always interested, even asa kid, in a young adult, okay,

yeah, so I've always been interested in
internal structures and anatomy.
I remember now going to somemedical bookstore with my dad
when I was very, very young, andgot I asked him to get me
skeleton skeletal anatomy flashcards. That's what I wanted. Oh

my gosh, that's amazing. How old do you
think you were?

You're all mine. Ah,

I love that. That's incredible. And
then so you have many a degree.
So you are a physician who isquadruple certified in anatomic
pathology, Clinical Pathology,forensic pathology and
neuropathology. Can you give usthe super basic version, for
those of us who don't know whatthose terms mean, like, what

(18:52):
does that mean? Because that'sso amazing. I like, yeah,
syllables

there exactly. So I'm a physician, so
I have a medical degree, adoctorate in medicine, and then
you may have heard of or seenthe board certification. This
physician is board certified andblah, blah, blah. So I am board
certified in four different subspecialties. I'm board certified

(19:19):
in anatomic pathology, which ismostly where learning how to
diagnose diseases based onpieces and parts of patients, of
live patients. I'm boardcertified in Clinical Pathology,
which Clinical Pathology focuseson laboratory diagnosis, like
running instruments in a lab,behind the scenes. Then forensic

(19:41):
pathology is the subspecialty ofmedicine focusing on determining
cause and manner of death basedon post mortem examinations,
like autopsies and theneuropathology is the
subspecialty of medicinefocusing on diseases and
disorders of the brain. Okay,wow, I like to tell people I am
uniquely. Qualified ready forthe zombie apocalypse when it

(20:02):
happens.

I love that. You are very unique. We
uniquely qualified. So if itdoes happen, we know exactly who
is to consult, right? Yes,Staley

from the medical examiner's offices, but
give me a call. I'll help out.
There

you go.
We're hooked up with the rightinfo. I love it. So that's
amazing. So you have all this,like, incredible, incredible
academic experience, and thenhow did you end up? Like, once
you realized, you know, you weregoing through med school, you
thought you wanted to be apediatrician, and you're like,
maybe not so much. And I do lovefor people who can't, who can't

(20:39):
see you're wearing these, like,really adorable bright pink
glasses with cute pink matchingearrings, which I love. And
notice first thing,

the brains and jars.

Oh my gosh, their brains and jars for the
earrings. I love that so much.
So tell us, like, what was thattransition like? And then,
knowing that you you youessentially didn't want to do
this, this role as apediatrician. How did you sort
of find your way into thisfield? And then, like, what
kinds of things did you do?

(21:12):
Like, what did that look like tokind of narrow, narrow down this
area? Because I feel like thatprobably was a very different
thought process going into whatyou would think would be a
pediatrician, and then goinginto this field,

yes. So most people, again, pulling a number
out of somewhere, I would saythat 99% of people who go to
medical school go thinking theywant to help treat live
patients, right? So the wholeconcept of treating dead
patients, but which is reallyhelping on a public health
level, isn't most people don'tconsider that at all, if you do,

(21:49):
and props to them. So the way mymedical school, four years of it
was structured was the secondyear is when we really focused
on learning pathology, theunderlying basis of disease
processes, and that felt like areally good fit for me for a
couple reasons. One, like reallyunderstanding why something is
happening, understanding what,what is this cancer? What does

(22:11):
it look like? What it you know,we get to actually look at it in
the microscope and kind of seeit face to face in a weird sort
of way. I thought that wasfascinating. And I still love
that. I also love that withpathology, we kind of were able
to sit back and get in, collecta lot of information and think
about it, and then issue adiagnosis that then drives

(22:32):
clinical care. But it's not likea you're there with the patient
in front of you, having to makea snap decision. That doesn't
work from my brain so much, butthen around third or fourth year
of medical school, we're allsupposed to decide what kind of
residency training program wewant to go to. We have to
decide. So, you know, familymedicine, pediatrics, general
surgery, dermatology, radiology,pathology, blah, blah, blah, all

(22:57):
these different options that wehave to decide which one we want
to spend the next, however manyyears of our life focusing on so
when I was in at that point inmy med school career, I was
trying to decide between asurgical sub specialty, because
I really enjoy working with myhands, psychiatry, because I

(23:17):
really enjoy Crazy people, andthen pathology sort of the
underlying basis of allunderstanding disease and
disease processes. Soultimately, of course, I went
with pathology because Irealized it had everything I
needed. I think, with autopsiesand pathology, it's a very hands

(23:39):
on surgical process. So thatserved that sort of need of
mine. I joke flippantly that,yeah, so in pathology, I don't
treat crazy people, but I justwork with crazy people, so that
satisfies that need of mine. Butit was, it was a difficult

(23:59):
decision to make, also, from thestandpoint of, do I really want
to not treat live patients,because isn't that what a real
doctor is? But I'm over that bynow.

Yeah. And so once you got through med
school, then you did aresidency, and then after you
did resin residency, I'd love tokind of hear just like, even a
quick overview, like, what weresome of the jobs that you had
before, you know, before you gotinto this role? What did that

(24:30):
path look like? A little bit.

Yeah, so four years of residency training in
pathology, which is kind of ajob, which is kind of school,
you're not paying to be there,they're paying you somewhat, but
they work you really hard, asyou're sort of, you know, boots
on the ground learning how to bea doctor without killing people,
because there's always someoneoverseeing your work. And then
after that, I did my one year offorensic pathology fellowship

(24:54):
training in New Mexico, which isdoing forensic autopsies pretty
much all day, every day. Soreally intense training. And
then after that, I did two yearsof neuropathology fellowship
training, which was focusingjust on diseases and disorders
of the brain and diagnosingthose. And then my first big
girl job, as I say, once Icompleted all my additional

(25:16):
training, was working in farnorthern, very rural California
forest Sheriff's Office, whichwas a very interesting
experience, especially comingfrom such a heavily academic
prior life.

Wow, yeah, I could imagine that was a
probably large cultural shift aswell.

Yeah, I'm very grateful for the
experience, because I did. Ilearned a lot. I mean, you can
learn a lot wherever you go, aslong as you're open to it. Yes.
But then, after working aboutfive years and very rural,
completely away from anythingacademic, I was like, Oh, maybe
I miss academia. So then Iswitched to a job in Missouri

(25:59):
where I was affiliated with theuniversity and had the
opportunity to teach again,which I really enjoy, and then
came to Utah. Wow,

that's amazing. And I want to talk
about, like, your roles that youdo now, and the details, the
kind of nuances about that. Socan you explain, like we talked
about just overall, like yourrole is chief medical examiner,
and you you actually do multiplethings within your role. So can

(26:29):
you kind of explain a little bitabout your responsibilities in
in this particular job?

Sure. Let's see. So in my role as chief
medical examiner here in Utah,my time is supposedly split
about half between doing handson forensic pathology stuff,
meaning slicing and dicing,doing autopsies and post mortem
examinations and writing thosereports. Then half the time is
supposed to be administrativeduties where there's paperwork

(27:00):
and meetings and putting outfires and doing my best to help
everyone in the office succeedand and the really, the cool
thing that gets me reallyexcited is I'm given the
opportunity to basically bragabout how awesome this off
office is and try to help raiseawareness again about How the

(27:20):
work we do is impacting theliving

I love that. And can you describe,
like, kind of when you went, or,you know, when you and your team
go to figure out the cause ofdeath, like, can you describe,
what is that look or sound like,or what actions are you taking
and kind of just go throughmaybe the process and some of

(27:44):
the details of what thatinvolves, and then,
particularly, like your rolewithin the scope of that,

yes, so let me try to give a bigger overall
picture. If you've watched theCSI TV shows, which I do enjoy,
even though they're totallyridiculous, if there's a
forensic pathologist, is usuallyone forensic pathologist and
maybe one investigator, and youcan see the forensic pathologist
maybe slice open the head andsay, Oh, they had a stroke at

(28:12):
12pm on June 7. And that'sridiculous, completely
unrealistic. But the point Ireally want to make is it takes
an entire team for this, forthis to happen. And so in our
office, we have our front officestaff, we have our Deaf
investigators, we have ourassistance back in autopsy,
because doing an autopsy is avery physically demanding job.

(28:36):
We have our epidemiologists,which I hope we can get to
later. And then we have ourforensic pathologist and then
some administrative physicalpeople to keep us crossing all
our T's and dotting all our i'sand making sure we can function.
So our death investigators arethe ones who actually go out to
the scene of a death, andthey're sort of our initial eyes
and ears. So often how someonelives is related to how someone

(29:01):
dies, so having that sceneinvestigation is critical to
helping us come up with the bestdetermination of cause and
manner of death. So they will,they're the ones who will
respond to the scene, takephotographs, photo document
everything surrounding the scenewhere the person is, and then
the body itself. And they willtalk to next of kin and friends

(29:21):
who and whoever is on scene, totry to get as much information
about the person as possible.
Then, if this is a death thatfalls under our jurisdiction,
the body will be brought to ouroffice, where is received by
some of our morgue staff to makesure chain of custody is
maintained, to make sure thatpersonal property that arrived
with the decedent is preservedand then, usually the next day,

(29:44):
sometimes even the same day, wewill start our post mortem
examination. And the extent of apost mortem examination depends
on multiple factors, and itcould just be looking at someone
like a physical exam at thedoctors, where. Look at them,
completely unclothed,documenting any injuries, trauma
or natural disease processes,and then collecting samples for

(30:07):
toxicology, and then that's it,they're released. Or the post
mortem examination, is the fullautopsy, where we open them up
and look at every single organvery carefully to try to come up
with the best cause and mannerof death, but each time we're
collecting specimens fortoxicology and maybe other
testing. So those are the peopleinvolved at kind of a broader

(30:31):
level, and then my role. So onceI have my patients for the day,
if I'm on service, we say onservice for when we're in the
more to you know when we'reassigned to be doing autopsies
and post form examinations. Iwill get the information from
the investigator ahead of time,because that's really important.
Like I said, that's going tohelp me figure out the extent of

(30:54):
examination I need to do. That'sgoing to help me figure out what
kind of additional testing Ineed to do. But the whole exam
is usually, well, we will do upto eight in a day. Wow. So we
don't need to hold on to thebody as soon as we are done,
which is, like I said, same dayor next day. Usually, we can
release the body to the funeralhome so that part of the

(31:16):
grieving process can be takencare of. But most of the time, I
won't have a cause or manner ofdeath yet, because I still need
to gather more information. Imay need to look at pieces of
organs under a microscope.
Almost everyone gets toxicologytesting, and that takes weeks to
return. Okay? So I have tocompile all that information and

(31:41):
and turn it into a Word documentreport, in addition to filling
out a death certificate. Wow.
And that might have been a kindof convoluted answer, but I
trust you will. You'll ask meclarifying

that was great. Yeah, is it clarify?
Really quick. I have a fewfollow up questions like, so
what is toxicology like? Can youdefine that?

Yes, so toxicology is looking at the
drugs in someone's system. Okay,it's not the same. So I mean,
toxicology is toxicology. Wealso do toxicology on living
patients, but interpretation ofresults is different after
death, okay, partly, in largepart, because nobody really

(32:24):
cares about death until ithappens to them, well, happens
to a loved one or makes nationalnews. So we don't have a lot of
really good studies on levels,toxicology levels and a
decedent. Wow, so I will get atoxicology report back. And it's
not just, hey, this personoverdosed on this. It's, this is

(32:47):
a number, and then I have tointerpret it within the context
of everything else. Wow. Okay,

thank you for explaining that. And then so
in regards to the autopsy,because I think this is
interesting, and we were talkingbefore, when I was gathering
more information. And can youkind of explain? Because you you
do those parts and like youknow, you're hands on. And I
know you mentioned you have ateam who also works with you,

(33:14):
because it is so physicallydemanding, so without going into
too much graphic detail, becauseotherwise we might have to pause
the interview. Um, but for thepurposes of, like, actually
sharing about that, because Ithink it is really interesting,
how do you go about doing doingthat, and what is it that,
because I'm imagining, becauseyou do this, like you said, you

(33:37):
do up to eight in a day, andthen I know it's not your full
time. You know you don't doevery single day because you're
also doing the administrativeand other responsibilities for
your team and department. Butwhen you are doing this, like
that, does I mean you're like,in it to win it, for lack of
better words, like you werejust, you know, you're in it in
the tragedy. Yeah, exactly. Socan you kind of explain, like,

(33:59):
what is this like, and what doyou actually love so much about
this part? Because it'sinteresting to me even, because
it's just like something I neverI mean, I don't think I ever do
and have never done

it even, and that's fine. But for those of us
who can handle this thing, Iencourage you, please try to get
into this field, because it's soimportant. And like I said, most
people can't. Well, if you'veever had a regular physical exam
at a doctor, right? You go infor your annual wellness exam,
the doctor will look at you takemeasurements, like blood

(34:33):
pressure, temperature. Theymight check your thyroid by
putting their fingers on thefront of your neck and asking
you to swallow. They mightpalpate your belly, meaning
press on your belly, see if theycan feel any masses and things
like that. So what we do with anautopsy is that, but I get to
actually see it. Okay, right? SoI don't just palpate on the

(34:55):
belly. I am going to open you upso I can see everything inside.
COVID I can I will be able tolook directly at your thyroid
gland and slice through it andsee if there's any masses or
nodules. I don't have to pressto feel how far, how enlarged
your liver might be. I can weighit and look at it and slice

(35:16):
through it, wow. So I get to dothat for every major organ in
the body,

okay, and so is there like a process that
you follow, is like, almost likea checklist or something, I'm
imagining that you that you haveas part of the autopsy,

sort of, yeah. So, I mean, so part of an
autopsies, we routinely try tocollect certain specimens for
toxicology. Okay? So weroutinely try to collect blood,
usually from the femoral region.
We routinely try to collecturine from the urinary bladder.
We routinely try to collectvitreous fluid, which is eyeball
juice. Oh, wow, yes. So we dothose we collect those

(36:01):
specimens. Every autopsy startswith the external examination,
which is again, just looking atthe patient, okay, first
clothed, then unclothed,carefully detailing any
injuries, trauma, scars,evidence of natural disease. And
then we go proceed with the Yincision right, which you may
have seen on the TV shows, totry to open up the chest and

(36:23):
abdominal cavities and look atthe organs in there, one by one.
And then we will reflect thescalp. Saw open the top of the
skull and look at the brain. Buteverything we do, every
incision, every examination wedo. We do keeping the family in
mind and their need topotentially have a viewing so

(36:45):
all of the incisions we make canbe covered up and sort of made
pretty by the funeral home.
Yeah, right. So the y incisionis done so that it's covered by
clothing. And the when we needto look in this the head, the

(37:06):
incisions we make along thescalp, it can be covered by the
pillow line, basically. So we'realways trying to keep that in
mind with the work we do aswell.

Yeah, I love that. I think that's, I
mean, yeah, it's something Iwould never think about but, but
obviously, so important to thepeople who are still around,
yes. And part of that, yeah, theloved ones. So that's super
interesting. And then you said,like, in regards to kind of like
you've done, you've done the,sort of, the hands on portion of

(37:38):
looking at the patient, andthen, or the do you call them a
patient, the individual. Andthen after, right, you're,
you're done with that activepart. Then you're waiting for
the the test results ofeverything it. How does that
work? Like, once you startgetting the test results in

(37:59):
what, I guess, like, what isthat like? What What things are
you thinking or what factors areyou talking about in order to
sort of figure out those keythings, like the cause of death,
in the manner of death, like,what is that part of the process
like?

So, in a perfect world which doesn't
exist, of course, I would beable to do my cases, and, you
know, do the physical exam of mydecedents, my patients, and then
spend the next, however manydays I need to just thinking
about that, transcribing myautopsy notes into a Word
document, getting the toxicologyresults back, reviewing the

(38:35):
medical records and buildingbeing able to finish it within a
day or so that doesn't happenbecause lots of other things
happen, and people are dyingevery single day. So this is a
continuing process of takingcare of more decedents each
time. But let's see. So thisusually happens in my office,

(39:00):
which where I have a microscope,or I have reference books to
help me interpret toxicologyresults. I might have to look at
representations of differentorgans under the microscope in
my office and make a diagnostic,make a pathologic diagnosis.
Based on those I will review thescene information, review the
patient's history, socialhistory, usually, and come up to

(39:23):
my best ability with the bestexplanation for why they died.
And sometimes we have to ask foradditional testing. Maybe
toxicology is surprising, eitherwe expected something to be
there based on the sceneinvestigation, and it wasn't
there. So then I have to digdeeper, or something pops up on
toxicology that we didn't expectat all, and I have to make sure

(39:45):
that it's, it's a true result,and try to figure out if there's
another explanation for it beingthere.

Okay, and then how do you, like, usually,
is there? Because you, as youmentioned, you have, like, so
many other things happening inthe midst of before. Or, you
know, when you just started withthis one decedent, and then
you've, like, moved on to allthese other people. Is there a
certain time frame, and also,usually, like, is there an
average number of people who arehelping in this process that you

(40:12):
when you do come to a conclusionafter a certain, I don't know,
like, a month or in like 15people have helped? Are there
are Is there information likethat that exists, or is there
like is that hard to say?

I don't know how to answer. How many people
have helped, because, you know,the investigative information
that helps immensely. Working inan office with multiple other
forensic pathologists is veryhelpful, because, not
uncommonly, we have complicatedcases and it's and so it's
helpful to rely on colleagues totry to brainstorm a way through
Well, what does this mean? Whatdoes this mean? What is the most

(40:47):
likely explanation here? Okay,and to your point, I I'm

sorry, I was gonna say so it sounds like
you're working often in in ateam, like, on a lot of the
cases, to, like, think throughthings or compare like maybe
with their experiences, or ifthey've seen something like
this, or, I don't know, likework through things together,
about how you could furtherinvestigate, if needed?

Yes. So I would say that all medical
diagnoses, including a cause,including a cause of death
determination, the best outcomescome from when you can consult
your colleagues, from when morehealthcare providers are
involved. So we also consulttoxicologists a lot of times to
help us interpret those postmortem toxicology levels. So

(41:35):
that's another member of theteam who it doesn't reside in
our office necessarily.

Okay, yeah, that's so interesting. And is
there like a certain time framethat usually like, is it like a
month later that, or does itdoes not exist?

Yes. So one of the most impossible things to
explain to anyone, not in ouroffice or not in the business
period, no matter what officeyou're at, is how long it takes,
right? It makes no sense. Youdid the autopsy, it's completed.
Why does it take so long to getthe results? Well, because
there's all these additionalsteps, and it's not just your

(42:15):
loved one who died, right? It'sso many people's loved ones who
died, and we're prioritizing allof them to the best of our
ability. But to answer yourquestion, there are certain
national standards that we tryto adhere to, and that includes
getting most of our cases donewithin 90 days. Okay, so most of

(42:35):
our cases hovering around 90% Ithink the report is completed
within 90 days. Okay,

yeah. And there are, it's so interesting.
There's so many components,because it's like, the, yeah,
the physical, like, hands on,looking at everything, and then
the testing. And then you'reactually, like, writing things,
and you're talking to yourcolleagues, like, thinking and
analyzing. And then, as yousaid, you're not just doing that
for like, one, one decedent.
It's many, many, many at a time.

(43:07):
Do you have numbers orstatistics? And if you, if you
don't have it now, it's fine, orif you have it later, like you
can send it to me. But just asfar as, like, how many cases you
you do in like a year or certaintime frame. So

again, this refers to national standards,
where we recognize that ifpathologists are asked to do too
many, the quality of our workdecreases. Right? We can't
maintain a certain quality ifthere are too many, too many. So
250 to 325 is the number westrive for,

okay, wow, which is like one a day. I mean,
sort of, or ish, yeah, yes, wow.
Okay, um, and

then, and then the other point I'd like to
make, if I may, quickly, aboutthis, it's so hard to explain to
people not in this business, howlong it takes the the extra
frustrating thing is, the morecomplicated the case is, the
more difficult it is to come upwith a reasonable cause of
death, the longer it takes.
Yeah, and I can, I can see thefamily's perspective of, you
know, it's been months. Why isthere no answer? What are you

(44:13):
doing? We're trying to find theanswer. It's just not as
straightforward. Yeah.

And I think on that note, like, I kind of
love to shift the conversation alittle bit about just, like,
Why? Why do you love doing thisjob like you have, you have very
clear affinity for doing whatyou do, knowing that it does
affect the public's health forthe living in a really beautiful

(44:42):
way. So I love to hear like,what are your, you know,
favorite parts of this job? Orlike, why do you feel so
passionately about wanting morewomen in particular to know
about this in this careeroption? I

think if I had to do any other specialty
within med. Medicine, I wouldn'tbe a doctor. I really enjoy
forensic pathology for manyreasons. So one category of
reasons is so much of westernmedicine in particular, I would
say, has become super subspecialized, right? You have a
heart problem, you go to acardiologist. You have a lung

(45:19):
problem, you go topulmonologist. You have a kidney
problem, you go to thenephrologist, and that's great,
but all those systems areconnected. I feel like there's a
lot of unfortunate barriers inlive patient medicine, because
there's not that greatcommunication. And I'm not
trying to knock any of thesespecialists. They're very
important, and they do goodwork, and they're able to know a

(45:40):
lot of details about complicatedthings, but with autopsy, I get
to see the heart connected tothe lungs connected to
everything. I see how it's stillall connected together, and I
love that. Now there's noheartbeat, so there's no
electrical activity, and I can'tdo certain other measurements,
but I can see how everything isconnected together. And I get to

(46:00):
pull in the patient's socialhistory, their medical history,
toxicology, histology, try topull together all these
different pieces to capture thebest story of why this person
died. And I find that verysatisfying. I also very much
enjoy so yes, there's a criminaljustice aspect to the work we

(46:23):
do. People do horrible things toeach other, and sometimes the
legal system gets involved andwe have to testify in court.
That's not my favorite part, butmy favorite part is that much
more of this is a public healththing. So I have this very
fanciful, naive vision that Iknow will never happen, but the
vision is, if I do my job wellenough, I won't have any more

(46:47):
patience, right? If I if we can,collectively as medical, legal
death investigators, as forensicpathologists, figure out why
people are dying and provide theright information and the why,
the why, the why, then we canideally, which will never
happen, prevent those deaths.
Yeah, and then just going backto the actual physicality of it.

(47:08):
So doing autopsies, like I said,there's this very physical part
of it, which I very much enjoy,but then there's also this very
cerebral part. So it's thisgreat blend of manual labor and
cerebral labor that I find verysatisfying. Yeah,

that's so interesting. And and then also,
like, I do want to touch on,because, you know, you do also
manage, like the people and whodo the work. And so that I
thought was, you know, sointeresting. So I wanted to just
read a little bit before I askyou some questions, just to give
people, like, an overview ofyour responsibility, so you
oversee all the department staffand teams, including work

(47:47):
operations, medical examinerinvestigations, forensic
pathologists, epidemiology andsupport staff. Your job includes
recruiting, hiring, training andmanaging day to day operations,
in addition to your job dutiesthat you've kind of, you know,
already talked about with, like,the hands on and analysis parts.
So in regards to, kind of,because you are wearing multiple

(48:08):
hats in this way, how do you, Iguess, like, how do you go about
that part? You know, when itbecause that's like, they're
very different skill sets, youknow, just to be, like, very,
you know, very, just sort ofblunt. It's like you're doing
all this work that that you haveall these incredible years of
experience, and you've gone toschool and so, like, that's a

(48:30):
whole entity in and of itself.
But then, you know, you talkabout sort of being the head of
this department, and thenmanaging the people and
overseeing all these differentnuances and what it takes to run
that. How do you go about likethat part and combine like those
skill sets? This is a hugequestion, so feel free to answer
however you wish. But I just, Iwanted to also, I asked this

(48:52):
question because it's inrecognition that of these skill
sets that you have, which istruly incredible because you're
doing like, I mean, really, somany pieces in in one role.
Like, do you feel like you youknow to step into this role, and
I'm not sure. And you can feelfree to say, like, how long
you've been doing it, but liketo step into this role. Like,

(49:14):
are there certain things thatyou feel like you had to develop
or like, step into as you tookon this other component that is,
you know, running this officeand, like, managing the team
that is maybe separate from youryour work in that role of, like,
investigating, like, cause ofdeath, things like that, if that

(49:36):
makes it easier to answer, okay,

let Me, I think I have the glimmers of a
two part answer. So one, theswitching between different
roles, most of the time feelsgood, okay, sort of a okay. This
has gotten really stressful. I'mgoing to break into this other,
other mode of operation, andthen it's kind of relaxing. But
I wouldn't want to. Do that theentire time, because that also

(50:02):
drains me in certain ways. Sothey're, they're sort of
complimentary, or in otherwords, they drain different
parts of me. Yeah, fair enough.
So yeah, I applied for this job,not thinking I would get it. I'm
kind of a youngish woman, and Ithought they'd pick someone a

(50:23):
lot more seasoned than me, buthere I am. I think a skill that
is that is very important in anysort of leadership role is
emotional intelligence, andthat's, I don't know if that can
be taught. I'm sure it can betaught. I don't know how I would
teach that, but I should figurethat out, though, because I have

(50:47):
a child, that's a great note formyself. I need to figure that
out.

It's a note for me too, right? As a mom,
yeah,

but I the way I see my leadership roles, my
job is to set everyone else upfor success. And I feel very
fortunate here in this office,and that the office is already
populated by so many amazingpeople. It's really easy. Yeah,
it's really easy. That's

why they hired you, right? Because you
add to the add to theawesomeness of the team. I also,
I'm sure it's what, yeah, I lovethat. And can you talk to us,
like, also, and kind of share,are there a lot of women who are
doing this role, whether it'sas, like, not even as the chief

(51:35):
medical examiner, but even therole of an office but like, just
even, sort of like some, youknow, some of the sub
subsections maybe, like, Arethere a lot of women doing what
you're doing? So

I don't know the national statistics, there
is a nationwide shortage offorensic pathologists. FY, so if
anyone is considering this atall, please do it. We need you.
But I'm fairly confident thatthere is a majority of women
doing forensic pathology at thispoint, which is a shift from
prior years. Women are alsotaking over the medical schools.

(52:09):
Last time I checked too in ouroffice, most of our
investigators, our deathinvestigators, are women, and I
think that is also not uncommonas well. Okay, I don't know why,
necessarily, it's an interestingphenomenon, but I it's not.
There are many areas of medicinethat are male predominated, but

(52:33):
I don't think forensic pathologyis one of them anymore. Okay, as
for chiefs, again, I don't knowwhat the national what the
actual numbers are, I thinkthere might still be a majority
of males in those roles, butwe're taking over. I

like it.
Woo hoo. Um, so Okay, well,thank you for answering that. I
know it was like a very bigquestion that I asked, and I
wanted to ask, kind of like aswe head towards the the end of
the interview, for for peoplewho are thinking like, oh, wow,
this is a career path that Ireally never considered, what
would be the characteristics,or, like, the qualities or

(53:11):
passions, maybe, of someone whomight really love doing this
job.

So many things. I think what enjoying
puzzles and solving puzzles is abig part of this. Having mental
flexibility and be able to workwithin chaos is a big part of
this, because there's we don't,we can't schedule death, and
people do the weirdest thingsfor themselves and to others. So

(53:43):
if you can't plan for everysingle situation that you're
going to encounter, acharacteristic that I've noticed
seems to be a trend, which isprobably pretty surprising to
most people on the outside, isthat everyone I've met in this
business, with rare exceptions,really cares about live people

(54:05):
like we do this because, becausewe want to make a difference for
live people. It's not just thesort of stereotype of, oh, we're
anti social weirdos who can'ttalk to anyone, so we just deal
with the dead. We are actuallyinterfacing with live people,
often in their worst mentalemotional states, because we're

(54:26):
dealing with someone who justlost a loved one. And that takes
a lot of a lot of strength and alot of love, really, to be able
to do that in a professionalcaring manner. And then probably
the biggest thing, if you weretrying to figure out if this was
something for you, you have toknow if you can handle being
around the dead body. Yeah, forsome people, is a hard No, and

(54:50):
that's okay. That's okay. Yeah.
Not for everyone,

yeah, okay.
Well, I appreciate that, and Iwanted to also say like on the
note of. Of kind of a lot ofpeople you know, maybe not
thinking about the fact thatthat like for you and your
colleagues you know, like thethe depths of love that you have
for the living is so great, andalso that you are working with,

(55:14):
with the families and otherpeople, it's interesting,
because that's something that Iwouldn't have thought about. You
know, you think about it whenyou hear about perhaps people
who work with with hospicepatients, right? And they're
part of those systems, it's sortof like a given, but it's really
interesting to sort of thinkabout that in the work that your
team does, and that you arestill providing some support and

(55:39):
guidance. And so I'd love tojust touch a little bit on that
when, when I know it's not youin your role, but like when
you're when your team is helpingpeople who have lost a loved
one. What kind of support orresources or things are they
usually receiving from yourteam?

Well, this is an area that has a lot of room
for improvement across theglobe. Probably, I think our
office does a good job of doingour best, but we can do better,
but some of the things we dojust being a person who is
asking questions about yourloved one who just died, and
listening like, actually justlistening and hearing you like,

(56:26):
there's a lot of healing thatcan come from that. Not
uncommonly, we'll get reallyupset families who are upset
with us, and they stay upsetwith us for a long time, and
we're we're able to recognizethat, you know what? Maybe,
maybe it's not really just usthey're upset with, but this is
part of the grieving process,and so we do work with some

(56:48):
specific grief supportorganizations in the state, and
try to refer people to thoseplaces where they can get more
intensive, dedicated support.
The Utah office of the medicalexaminer is incredibly unique
and wonderful in so many ways.
And my perhaps slightly biasedopinion, but not completely
biased, one of the ways is thatwe have a team of

(57:10):
epidemiologists. Most officesdon't have that, and our
epidemiologists are lookingspecifically at deaths by
suicide and drug overdosedeaths, and part of what they do
is months after the deathoccurred, usually about eight
months, so when the person is nolonger maybe in that active

(57:31):
grieving phase. I'm not sure whythey picked eight months, but
there's a good reason. They willdo a next of kin interview,
where they'll call up the nextof kin, the survivor from the
person who died check in onthem? How are you doing? They'll
try to get additionalinformation to provide more
context to that person's death.
So what were some of the otherstressors that were going on

(57:52):
around the time that your persondied by suicide? What were some
of the stressors that were goingon when your person overdosed by
drugs. And that additionalinformation is so critical,
because, again, that gets uscloser to the why. Why did this
person die by suicide? Why didthis person overdose on drugs?
And if we can get to the why, wecan we have a better chance of

(58:13):
preventing it. But thoseinterviews also provide that
active, caring ear for thatperson who's still suffering,
who's still grieving, to be ableto talk about their loved one
and not hopefully feel shameabout it or anything like that.
And I wish we could do more ofthat. I wish we could do that
for everyone. Because, again, Iknow we talked about this

(58:37):
before, but you know, everyonedies like that is a universal
constant, and yet we as agenerally speaking, as a nation,
as a society, we're so afraid ofit, we don't talk about it. And
so if you lose a loved one,there's that trauma of my loved
one is gone, but then there'sthat additional trauma of, Oh,
crap, now I have to get a deathcertificate, what is that and

(59:00):
all these other hurdles that youhave to jump through. And our
goal is to try to do what we canto minimize that additional
trauma. You know, if we couldand nationally, you're getting
me on my soapbox here, we couldchange our mentality so that we
recognize that death isuniversal. Death happens to
everyone. Yes, it's scary, butit doesn't have to be so scary.

(59:22):
And we could teach people aboutthis is, this is kind of normal.
Your grief is normal. Let ushelp you. This is the process.
Let us help you. I think thatwould, I think the world would
be a better place.

Yeah, on that note, like, how do you
think about dying and death.
Like, do you have? I feel likeyou're in such a unique position
and and probably have somethoughts that many of us have
not even thought to think of. SoI'd love to kind of hear what
you've come to. I don't quiteknow how to, like, I wrote down

(59:55):
some more probably brilliantlyworded questions. Like, you
know, how do you think? Ofdeath, or how do you approach
it? Or how do you come to termswith your own death if you want
to answer any of the any of theabove questions, but how? How do
you like, if you could use allof your wisdom to kind of like,
share something that you thinkmight be a good way for the rest

(01:00:16):
of us who aren't in your fieldto like approach death. Would
you have anything to share aboutthat we would love to

Dr. Deirdre Amaro (01:00:27):
I think about death and my death constantly.
You know, I wonder. My personalgoal is that I just wake up
dead, I die in my sleepsometime, and I'm found and
that's how it goes. I don't knowif it's wisdom, but just to
reassure everyone out there thatdeath is normal, and when your
loved one dies, it hurts, butyou are not alone. Like people

(01:00:51):
are dying every single day, notfrom a like, a scary everyone's
dying point of view, but like,that's just, that's just the
part of the cycle of life, andthere's support for you, and
you're not alone, right? Youdon't have to navigate this
sudden change in existence ofyour loved one alone. That's

(01:01:11):
what I would say.

Julie Berman - Host (01:01:12):
I love that. Yeah, I think that's
beautiful. And I I had mygrandmother who's super close to
she died over a decade ago now,but it's, and I actually just
had a friend who's, who's, um,loved one died. And so it's,
it's interesting, because I wasdealing with, like, this very
huge, you know, like grief andand death in my family, but it's

(01:01:35):
been a while, and then I hadkids, so it's like, now I've
been doing the other part, theother part of like, and then
having this reminder not toolong ago, you know, before we're
doing this interview, like, it'sjust, you know, it's interesting
to see the the cycle. But also,I have to say that I was
grateful because I had support,because my grandma was in

(01:01:58):
hospice program, and it waslike, one of the most beautiful
blessings that it I didn't knowthat I needed or that existed
until I needed it. And so I lovethat you share this part too,
because it is, I thinksometimes, especially like me,
because I was, I was in my 20s,it wasn't a part of what I knew
yet, but I was so grateful thatthere was, you know, some

(01:02:22):
support and people who knew morethan I did in that area. And so
I love that you're sharing this,this part of it too, because it
probably is something, I mean,in our culture, we definitely
don't think about it that much.
So it is, it is important toprobably be thinking about it.
So if you have resources, I canput them in the show notes. If
you have, like, bookrecommendations or podcasts,

(01:02:44):
yeah, you listen to so you can,you can send them to me after
the fact, and we'll put them inthe show notes. Because, yeah,
because that might beinteresting for people listening
as we as we kind of wrap uptoday for people who are
interested in doing your job. Doyou have any, like, specific
resources, associations, orother places that people can go
to. I know you have to,obviously go to med school. I

(01:03:05):
mean, there's a lot of thingsthat you must do before. But for
people who are like, Oh, wow, Inever thought about this where,
where can they kind of go, orwho can they talk to? Do you
think to get a betterunderstanding of what it might
entail and how they could getinto the field.

So one thing, you don't just have to be a
forensic pathologist and go tomedical school to get in this
field. There's so many differentteam members that are in this
field, and most of them don'trequire that, that commitment to
education, other commitments,yes, but not not medical school,
there are sort of two major,three major national

(01:03:46):
organizations. There's theNational Association of Medical
Examiners. I think their websiteis the name.org is more geared
towards forensic pathology, butthey have resources. And I think
they're offering free webinarson topics related to this. A
second national organization isthe American Academy of Forensic
Sciences, A, A, F, s.org, maybethey are geared towards more,

(01:04:14):
not just forensic pathologists,but all of the different
forensic specialties, you know,like crime scene investigator,
DNA, forensic DNA person,forensic toxicology, all of
them, and they have a lot ofgood resources on their website
too. And then there's also theInternational Association of
coroners and medical examiners,the iacme, and they have

(01:04:39):
resources on their website aswell. We didn't have talk about
medical, legal, deathinvestigation landscape, and how
every jurisdiction does itdifferently. So you might your
listeners might not all be in ajurisdiction that has a medical
examiner's office, okay, but ifthey are, you could also. To

(01:05:00):
just reach out and say, hey,could I shadow? Could I talk to
someone there? Could I get moreexposure to this field? And most
of the time, we tend to bereally eager to share what we
do. We're just also,unfortunately, very busy,
usually as well.

Yeah, okay, well, thank you, and I'm glad
that you pointed out that thereare a lot of roles that you can
actually do without necessarilygoing to med school. So I think
that's that's awesome. And thankyou for those resources, the
associations that you mentioned.
Is there anything else that youfeel like you didn't get to
mention that you'd really wantto chat about before we before

(01:05:38):
we start wrapping like just it'sreally important that you didn't
share that I might not know toask yes.

So, I mean, I There are many wonderful things
about my job in this field. Iwill caution though, also that
this job has changed me as aperson. You know, it has changed
my outlook. I see horriblethings on a daily basis that
does affect me. So that is areality.

Yeah, can I ask, like, how do you balance
that? I think that's a reallygood point. Like, how do you
balance kind of what you seewith trying to, yeah, like, have
a healthy mindset, and like,also living life, like living
your own life, and you have, yousaid you have a child. So like,
how, how did those two thingscome together? If you could

(01:06:31):
speak to that?

Yes, so that is a work in progress,

as is everything, right? Everything

this is, this is the topic we're starting to
talk about a lot more. We referto it as a vicarious trauma,
right? So that we go, there's ahorrible car accident, and the
first responders who get there,they're not mangled, but they're
dealing with seeing that. And sothey get the vicarious trauma.
So we get that too in our field.
And how do we combat vicarioustrauma? How do we manage it so

(01:07:02):
that it doesn't destroy us,right, and doesn't obliterate
our love for humanity? Yeah, myworking hypothesis is that
creative productions might be agood antidote. So painting,
writing, doing something tocreate and produce is my my
hypothesis that that is arguablyone of the best antidotes for

(01:07:27):
the vicarious trauma. Okay, whenso many of the people in my
office are artists, wow, likeone of my morgue assistants for
Halloween, she crocheted like 60skulls, colorful rainbow skulls.
She crocheted them. They lookedthey were like they were store,
brought, bought. They werebeautiful. Another one of my or

(01:07:48):
more people is an amazingpianist and does crochet and
knitting, I think, wow. Andanother one of our investigators
does pottery and stained glass,I think, like, there's so many
artistic endeavors that are thatgo hand in hand with with the

(01:08:09):
work that we do.

Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that. I
think that's I mean, and that isan important part of you know,
your job. And also, I think,acknowledging that. But also I
love, I personally love hearingabout when people have so many
different talents. You know,it's like, we're not just in one
lane, we're made up of so manyparts, like we're, we're capable

(01:08:34):
of so many things. So I lovehearing that. That's such a
beautiful thing. So on thatnote, I want to end, I'm going
to ask you my last question ofthe interview, and this is what
I ask to every every guest,because I just love hearing
about like, different verbiageand jargon and things in each
field. It's also different. Soto end our conversation, will
you please share a sentence thatuses verbiage or jargon from

(01:08:55):
your field and then translate itso it's understandable to us?

Okay? So you touched on this at the
beginning, talking about causeof death versus manner of death,
but I think it warrantsanswering also in this, in this
part, so I might say on thestand or wherever, or tell you,
if you're the next of Canada,your loved one's cause of death

(01:09:21):
is gunshot wound of head in themanner of death is suicide. So
what that means? So cause ofdeath is the injury or disease
process that made someone deadthin. There are a bazillion
different ways to phrase it. Itcould be leoblastoma, like a
really bad brain tumor. It couldbe metastatic carcinoma. It
could be exsanguination due tostab wounds of abdomen. Could be

(01:09:44):
gunshot wound of head. So manydifferent ways of describing a
cause of death, which is themedical diagnosis of one what
made that person dead. Then themanner of death portion is
multiple choice. So manner ofdeath refers to manner of death
natural. Normal. So someone diesof heart disease or cancer, some
natural disease process, mannerof death, accident. This

(01:10:07):
encompasses most of our trafficaccidents, drug overdoses, and
what I refer to as the hold mybeer. Watch this ways that
people die, manner of death,suicide, manner death, homicide,
and then manner of death,undetermined, when we really
can't tell,

wow. Okay, well, thank you for explaining
that. Yeah, so many things Ididn't know. And then lastly,
you know, if people do, if theyhear this and they're like, Wow,
I would love to reach out. Isthere some way like that people
can reach out, I know, maybe notto you directly, but is there
like, a way that, you know, ifpeople are like, Oh my gosh, I

(01:10:47):
would love to shadow, I wouldlove to ask more questions about
being in this field. What is thebest way for people to do that,
particularly if they happen tobe in Utah? Ah,

yes, much easier in Utah, website that you
can go to and leave comments andevery I don't know how it works,
but there's a common thing andit goes to an email, and then we
see it. We work with variousprograms across Utah to provide
shadowing opportunities. We havean internal internship

(01:11:18):
opportunity for both of ourinvestigators and our autopsy
assistance, so I think that's onour website, but I don't
actually know, okay, but youcould go to our website, okay,
fill out a query, and that canbe a good way. Yeah,

okay, awesome. Well, that's wonderful.
Thank you so much for beinghere. Dr Dietrich, it was just
like so interesting to learnabout you and your job and and
all the things that you and yourwhole team do for your state,
but also for for the betterment,right of those of us who are
living like across the country,because it affects us all, so

that's what we try for. I really appreciate
the opportunity to talk aboutthis. I mean, like you said,
most people don't. They thinkwe're just sort of people hating
Gremlins under a bridge orsomething. But, yeah,

yeah. Well, a fun group. It's, I mean, just
talking to you and hearing yourpassion for what you do, but
also why you do. That's clearlynot true. So it was such an
honor to talk to you and tolearn about your very cool job.

Thank you. My pleasure.

Hey everybody, thank you so much for
listening to women with cooljobs. I'll be releasing a new
episode every two weeks, so makesure you hit that subscribe
button, and if you loved theshow, please give me a five star
rating. Also, it would mean somuch if you share this episode

(01:12:46):
with someone. You think youwould love it or would find it
inspirational. And lastly, doyou have ideas for future shows?
Or do you know any rock starwomen with cool jobs? I would
love to hear from you. You canemail me at
julie@womenwithcooljobs.com, oryou can find me on Instagram, at
women cool jobs. Again, that'swomen cool jobs. Thank you so

(01:13:10):
much for listening, and have anincredible day. You.

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