Money is everywhere in our lives, yet talking about it remains one of the biggest taboos. In this episode, we bring together—Kathleen Burns Kingsbury, financial psychologist and author, and Melissa Joy, CFP®, founder of Pearl Planning—to explore why breaking money silence is crucial for financial confidence, wealth-building, and stronger relationships.
Key Takeaways:
💡 The Origins of Money Silence – Kathleen explains how our reluctance to discuss money started centuries ago as a form of protection but now acts as a barrier to financial literacy, confidence, and fair compensation.
🧠 Understanding Your Money Story – Before having important financial conversations with partners, children, or aging parents, self-reflection is key. Both emphasize that knowing your own money story creates a foundation for more authentic and productive discussions.
📊 Money Archetypes & Awareness – There’s no "perfect" money personality. Kathleen introduces different money archetypes and how understanding them can help you make better financial decisions.
👩💼 Women, Wealth & Workplace Confidence – Melissa shares why women often undervalue their skills in the workplace and how identifying your financial superpower—the unique value you bring—can help you negotiate with confidence and build wealth.
💰 Breaking the Silence for Financial Growth – Open conversations about wealth, investing, and financial planning are essential. Silence keeps women from maximizing their earning potential, making strategic investments, and stepping into financial leadership roles.
❤️ Money & Relationships – Talking about money isn’t just about numbers—it’s about values, security, and trust. Kathleen and Melissa explain how breaking money silence can strengthen personal and professional relationships.
🎯 Your Action Step: Commit to having one money conversation you wouldn’t have had before. Whether it’s with a partner, boss, or financial advisor, that single step can transform your financial confidence and help break generational money taboos.
Resources Mentioned:
📄 Free Financial Planning Resources – Get insights from Melissa at Pearl Planning
📘 Breaking Money Silence – Learn more from Kathleen at kbkwealthconnection.com
The previous presentation by PEARL PLANNING was intended for general information purposes only. No portion of the presentation serves as the receipt of, or as a substitute for, personalized investment advice from PEARL PLANNING or any other investment professional of your choosing. Different types of investments involve varying degrees of risk, and it should not be assumed that future performance of any specific investment or investment strategy, or any non-investment related or planning services, discussion or content, will be profitable, be suitable for your portfolio or individual situation, or prove successful. Neither PEARL PLANNING’s investment adviser registration status, nor any amount of prior experience or success, should be construed that a certain level of results or satisfaction will be achieved if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. PEARL PLANNING is neither a law firm nor accounting firm, and no portion of its services should be construed as legal or accounting advice. No portion of the video content should be construed by a client or prospective client as a guarantee that he/she will experience a certain level of results if PEARL PLANNING is engaged, or continues to be engaged, to provide investment advisory services. A copy of PEARL PLANNING’s current written disclosure Brochure discussing our advisory services and fees is available upon request or at
I'm Melissa Joy, a certifiedfinancial planner and the
founder of Pearl Planning.
My goal is to help youstreamline and organize your
finances, navigate big moneydecisions with confidence and be
strategic in order to grow yourwealth.
As a woman, you work hard foryour money and I'm here to help
(00:21):
you make the most of it.
Now let's get into the show.
And I'm here to help you makethe most of it.
Now let's get into the show.
Just a quick note before wedive in.
The information that we share ismeant to educate and inspire,
not serve as personalizedfinancial advice.
Everyone's situation is unique,so be sure to consult with your
own financial professional forguidance that fits your life.
And just so you know, theopinions shared in this podcast
(00:44):
are my own and those of myguests, and they don't
necessarily represent those ofany organizations that I'm
affiliated with.
For more important disclosures,please go to our webpage at
pearlplancom.
Now let's get started.
Do you ever feel like you needto have a conversation about
money, but you don't know who totalk to?
(01:04):
Or perhaps that conversation isjust not on the list of
acceptable?
You know things to talk about.
That's what we're going to betalking about.
Today we're talking withKathleen Burns Kingsbury, the
(01:27):
author of Breaking Money Silence.
She has written a book that hasbeen updated this year with a
bonus chapter on how to unleashyour true value.
All about money taboos, how toshatter them, how to approach
them and how to be moreconfident in your money by
understanding what's acceptableculturally and how you talk
about money.
Kathleen, welcome to thepodcast.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (01:46):
Thank
you, Melissa.
I'm really excited to breakmoney silence with you.
Melissa Joy (01:50):
Oh, there is so
much silence.
I feel like people hear peopletalking all the time, but
sometimes it's in social media,sometimes it's in observations
of friends and neighbors, and weneed more dialogue about how we
should be approaching money andthe right way to kind of tackle
things.
Tell me a little bit about howyou pull all this together and
(02:14):
develop this extraordinary kindof in essence curriculum when it
comes to communication aboutmoney.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (02:21):
Sure,
Actually, the original book was
published in 2017 and thesecond edition was just
published this year, and so in2017, I took a look at all the
work I had done with financialadvisors and financial planners,
where they said we really wantto talk to our clients more
about intergenerational wealth,passing down wealth, really have
(02:42):
these financial conversationsabout values, about, like, the
human side of finance.
And then I was also working as acoach with my own clients, who
tend to be women or, in the past, were couples, and they'd say
well, my financial advisordoesn't do that.
And I go well, isn't thisinteresting that there's a gap
between what the advising worldwants to offer and what clients
(03:06):
think they offer?
And I did kind of surmise thatthat's because talking about
money, at least historically,has been very taboo, and so I
decided that I was going towrite a book on why it was a
taboo, but also, moreimportantly, give a roadmap for
how to break through thatsilence and be able to engage in
conversations with yourself,with your partner if you have
(03:29):
one, with your kids, your agingparent, and also provide some
resources for advisors whowanted to have these
conversations as well.
So that was the goal of thebook and I'm happy to say it was
achieved, and so when it camean opportunity to update it, I
said, yeah, the world's changed.
Let's see what's changed abouttalking about money.
Melissa Joy (03:59):
I love it.
I noted that you saidconversations with yourself
first, and really it is soimportant to have a tone of
voice, a communication strategywhen it comes to how you
approach money personally, andthen that shows up in within
your relationships, peers, etcetera, and so I just think
that's such a powerful note thatit starts with you.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (04:18):
Yes,
and you know, one of the things
I say to people all the time isthat you know, sometimes people
will come to me and say, well, Ireally want to talk to my
husband or I really want to talkto my wife, and he or she is
resistant.
And I say you know what?
Start the conversation withyourself.
And it's really important tounderstand our own money stories
, our own history around money,our own automatic thoughts about
(04:39):
money, wealth, its purpose inour lives, in addition to what
we think and believe aboutengaging in conversations around
it.
And we can start the work there, and often that's what my
coaching clients come to me forinitially, and then, once you've
done that work, then you canhave a conversation about money
that is less threatening, thatoften isn't about the dollars
(04:59):
and cents but is more about howyou feel about money or what
your hopes and dreams are.
And I find that people aroundus are a little bit more
receptive to starting thatconversation around finance.
When it's not, you know youspent too much, or you know you
didn't save enough, or you knowwhat is your salary.
(05:20):
We start with something that'sa little less threatening, which
is how do you feel about thiswhole thing Because it's
complicated.
Melissa Joy (05:27):
It is complicated.
So many of us carry aninvisible backpack that defines
our relationship with money andhave never opened it up to look
at it.
You just have that weight onyour shoulders and so I do think
and you insert if you don'thave your own voice that's
comfortable and confident, orworking on that over time, then
(05:48):
in so many cases you insert whatyou think other people are
saying about you and what youmay not know that you and I, I
think, know, kathleen, is that alot of people who look like
they have everything pulledtogether really have a lot of
insecurity when it comes totheir finances.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (06:04):
Yes,
you know, there's a money
archetype assessment that I doand it breaks people into eight
different money archetypes,which is ways of being in the
world.
We have found that there areabout eight different ways
people typically are aroundmoney and it's neither good nor
bad.
But what is interesting is weoften project how we think and
feel about money onto somebodyelse and or make that assumption
(06:28):
that they have it all together.
And I'm here to tell you nobodyhas it all together.
Even somebody who's writtenbooks on it doesn't have it all
together.
I think one of the things Iwould like to do is shatter the
myth that you have to be perfectwith money.
You can never make a mistake,because that's not realistic,
that's not being a human aroundfinance.
(06:48):
It's when you do mess up,taking a look at what happened
and learning from thatexperience and moving on.
And I think if we sent thatkinder, gentler message to
people around finance, there'dbe less money, shame and less
self-judgment around you know,oh, I'm not doing it right.
Melissa Joy (07:07):
Well, when we
unpack, I just love the
opportunity to have someonewho's looked at history to say
why do we have these taboos?
Why are we not comfortabletalking about money?
I mean, we're two women talkingto each other, so we have the
extra layer of burden that womenweren't really given the purse
strings unless they were abouthousehold bills historically
(07:29):
until very recently, and thatyou know kind of dovetails into
the way things are discussed inhouseholds, expectations set etc
.
But what did you learn abouthow these taboos came to be and
what's important for us to knowand understand?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (07:44):
I
think what's important is that
originally, not talking aboutmoney was really a way of
protecting a family.
So imagine this, and this is,you know, this is my imagery.
So, but imagine the king andqueen.
They're sitting in the castle,the castle is going to be
attacked because someone wantsto take their wealth and their
(08:05):
territory, and there's a bunchof gold bars in the basement.
And so they're like don't tellthe kids that there's gold bars
in the basement, with the ideathat you know they're trying to
protect their kids from beingtaken advantage of.
Now that's a it's a hugeoversimplification.
Melissa Joy (08:22):
But when you see
it, though, like the real assets
were held in the household.
You know way back when.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (08:29):
Yeah,
and so it was a risk.
I mean, they could be kidnapped, they could be killed, there's
all sorts of things.
So generation after generationjust learned that you don't talk
to your kids about money.
And often children learn thatwe don't talk outside the family
, and in some families we don'teven talk about it in the family
, and so I feel like it's justbeen passed down for so many
(08:50):
generations until we got to apoint of like, hey, this isn't
really working.
It's not working for affluentfamilies, so people who have a
lot of wealth, it's not workingfor working class families.
It's just really important thatwe engage in these conversations
so we can teach the peoplebehind us how to be financially
literate, how to be confidentand responsible Again, not
(09:11):
perfect, just financiallyliterate and responsible.
And in order to break throughthat taboo, often there's
someone who needs to take thatrisk to say, hey, I'd like to
have a conversation about money,will you do that with me?
And so that's the kind of callto action at the end of the book
is dare to break money silence,dare to have one conversation
(09:32):
you wouldn't have had beforewith somebody, and what you will
find, and what I have found,which has been a cool kind of a
cool result of writing this bookis you have so many interesting
conversations and a lot of themaren't about money.
They're about who people are,what they value, and typically
if a couple talks about money,or girlfriends talk about money
(09:55):
or you know, adult children,parents there's an increase in
intimacy.
So once you get it past thatinitial taboo, it really does
enrich relationships.
Melissa Joy (10:04):
I love that idea
of intimacy, credibility and
trust, also just tacklingconversations that you may maybe
a companion that you know, justa stressor, a source of
insecurity, that may be yourcompanion for years and years
when you start to tackle thatconversation, whether it's like
hey, mom and dad, I'm just notsure if you have a game plan for
(10:28):
how to handle things if youcan't do it yourself and you
know that might be somethingthat they never imagined having
a way to bring up, and they maychoose to share something, but
not everything.
But I love that idea on so manylevels.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (10:46):
Yeah,
and the book is full of.
I did a lot of interviews ofother people, and so the book is
full of stories where peoplehave been in those situations
the one you described is verytypical and then there's steps
and activities that help youopen up those dialogues.
You know, one of the thingsthat I did learn between the
first publication in 2017 andnow, in my own life and in my
(11:09):
own family and in my work withclients, was that you know you
can try all these steps and youcan invite someone to the table
and 95% of the time, they'regoing to join you, and then 5%
they're not, and so I reallyencourage people that just keep
hitting up against a wall.
If you've tried for a long timeto really look for other people
that are more accessibleWhether that's your financial
(11:30):
planner, you know someone likeyou, melissa, or whether that's
a girlfriend that you have, oryou know somebody at work you
can break money silence withpeople who are ready, and
sometimes people aren't ready.
And you know I know agingparents.
That's a really tricky one, butit definitely is covered,
because I have had to deal withtwo aging parents.
I'm fortunate that they bothengaged in money conversations,
(11:53):
but certainly over the yearsit's gotten a little bit more
complicated conversations, butcertainly over the years it's
gotten a little bit morecomplicated.
Melissa Joy (12:03):
Yeah, I do think
that when it comes to that
generational shift, where therewas maybe more of a, the power
was with the parents in terms of, like, launching conversations,
and then there's a certaintipping point where you say, hey
, can we open up some of thecommunication?
There's generational shifts tooin terms of what perhaps you
know, an 80-year-old is used todisclosing or sharing versus.
(12:24):
You know, and when you retiredfrom jobs of their parents, it
was like everybody knew they hada pension or something like
that.
And so you know, there's the.
It's different when you have anet worth that's a million or
two million dollars.
It feels, you know, like thatprotection conversation feels
perhaps a little different.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (12:43):
I
think the other thing is for
people who are listening in isthat often when we're ready to
talk about money, we've beenthinking about it for a long
time, like I'm worried about momand dad.
I've been thinking about it,thinking about it.
So by the time you approachthem, you've thought about it a
long time.
It may be the first time theyrealize you want to have this
(13:04):
conversation.
So really giving them as muchcontrol and grace on when, where
and how to have theconversation and yes, it is,
I've gone through that whereit's that tipping point of like,
well, wait a second, now I'mtalking to dad about this and
that feels kind of weird.
And that's why in the book thechapter is called Raising
Financially Fit Parents because,I feel like it is that flip.
(13:26):
We spend our lives raisingfinancially fit kids and then
all of a sudden wait a second.
Now we have to work and raisefinancially fit parents.
Melissa Joy (13:34):
You're right,
let's flip the switch.
Well, so many of our listenersare sandwich generation, so they
are increasingly engaged andconcerned for their parents, in
many cases, or aging relatives,but they're also, in many cases,
raising kids or family memberswho they really care about.
You know their approach tomoney.
(13:56):
They want them to be preparedto be in the world, hopefully
independent.
I'm speaking for myself as amother of tweens and teens.
So what have you learned aboutthe money conversation from
parent generation down?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (14:13):
Well,
one of the things that parents
need to realize is that if youcan start conversations about
money early and have them often,then it just becomes another
conversation, so it's not ataboo conversation Now if you're
listening in and you haven'tdone that yet and your kid is
23,.
Don mean, around age five theystart to become aware of this
thing called money and so kindof engaging in age appropriate
(14:43):
conversations over time.
And one of the things thatsometimes parents worry about is
that they're, again, notperfect around money or don't
know that much.
Well, you can learn along withyour child.
If that's the situation thatyou're in, that's an absolute
okay thing to do.
And what I find is that when you, there was one book out there
(15:03):
that interviewed 23 adultchildren and they talked about
what was most important in termsof them being able to manage
money, and one of the thingsthey said was my parents, you
know, dared to talk about it.
We didn't always get along.
They encouraged me to work andto understand my purpose, and
now that I'm older, I'm thankful, even though I might have
(15:24):
kicked and screamed a little bitin my teens we can put
allowances on, because so somuch of today's world is in
cards and digital transactions,so you can't actually see the
money.
Melissa Joy (15:44):
but in this case
we can allow our kids, with some
supervision, to have access tofunds.
I've learned so much about mykids' instinctual behavior, like
there's one saver and one, justlike it hits the account and
we're at the convenience storegrabbing snacks.
You know, 10 minutes later andso I think you know talking
about both mistakes that we'vemade over the years.
(16:06):
You know like how it was whenwe were growing up with money.
There's so many greatconversations that don't have to
, you know, include goingthrough your retirement account
statements and things like that.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (16:17):
Right
, and what you're speaking to,
melissa, is that we are.
I mean, there are some peoplewho believe that we're born with
a money temperament and so thefact that kids maybe have
different money temperaments,the challenge, I think, as a
parent, is to encourage both ofthem and not make one wrong or
right, but that each of them mayhave to learn different things
(16:41):
about money.
Like I grew up a huge saver Iwould say cheap In hindsight,
cheap and, believe it or notinto adulthood, and certainly
becoming an entrepreneur andgrowing a business, I had to
learn how to let go of money ina good way, you know, not
overspending, but like investingin myself, for, you know,
making sure that I wasn't socheap that I wasn't having joy
(17:03):
in my life, and thank goodness Imarried a husband who's really
good at that.
But he also learned from me howto save and how to be more
responsible.
And so I really think if we canhelp our young kids know that
whatever their instincts are,they aren't necessarily bad or
shameful, they are just.
We need to be aware of it.
(17:24):
And what are some of the trapsin that particular type of being
with money?
And, you know, try to havebalance in our lives.
Melissa Joy (17:31):
Yeah, I'll
vulnerable share.
I am more of a spender, and sohow did I combat that?
What hacks did I have, you know, before I had money?
Well, I never had debt.
So you know, I couldn't spendbecause I didn't take out credit
cards when I was 20.
I had a limit always and Ihacked, you know, like saving up
(17:53):
front and investing up frontand I chose a partner who is
more careful and tends to, youknow, just be a little more
austere when it comes to a moneyapproach and I really focused
on also like managing a careerthat I could, you know, grow to
grow into my tastes, and thingslike that.
So I think, you know, this is agreat conversation topic of
(18:16):
like we're just sharing a littlebit about ourselves and can
learn from each other.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (18:25):
Well,
and what I love about what you
shared, melissa, is that thereis also this idea that all
financial planners or advisorshave it all together all the
time.
Not the case, no, and you knowthe idea that and I've worked
with a lot of financial advisorsin terms of coaching them on
their businesses and one of thethings that is really
interesting is there's thisassumption that all advisors
would have the same money,personality or the same
(18:47):
behaviors.
Not at all, and so I thinkpeople who are going to advisors
need to realize that advisorsare just people too, and while
they are professional and havean expertise and can really help
you, so many clients worry thatthey're being so judged by
their advisor, when, in fact, um, often they're not.
(19:08):
They're just, um, you know,realizing that you're a human
too.
Melissa Joy (19:23):
I know this isn't
right.
Like you know, like, oh no,that's great.
Like A, this needs to fit withyour psychology and personality
and there is, contrary to youknow, popular opinions.
There is no equation, for inthat example, like you could be
at risk because you have a lifethat can't be funded if
something goes bump in the night, if you don't have enough on
(19:45):
hand.
But there is, there shouldn'tbe judgment.
There are, you know.
There are parts of ourprofession that have rules and
are unwilling to kind ofcustomize them to the people
that they're working with.
But in so many cases you're notbeing judged at all.
You're just having someone thatis working with you that's
helping you to make moreconfident decisions, and not
(20:06):
making all my personal financialdecisions without a secondary
point of view.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (20:27):
Yeah,
no, I think that's a huge value
.
The other thing and you'reraising a good point, melissa is
if you feel judged by youradvisor or you feel like it's
too strict and you're not reallygetting someone who's really
there for you to understand you,there are other options.
I think that you knoweverybody's probably well
(20:47):
intended, but if it's not a goodfit for you, then move on.
And I too, I really believe inhaving a financial team because,
again, you can write books onthings.
It doesn't mean that you're nota human being who sometimes
needs guidance or expertise orknowledge that I just don't have
, or don't have the interest ortime to develop.
Melissa Joy (21:06):
Physicians also go
to the doctor and it's kind of
the same thing, and so I do seeso much value though, in that,
you know, kind of professionaladvice, of professional advice.
I just like have to share that,as I was wrapping up a meeting
earlier today to come and recordthis episode, the person I was
(21:27):
speaking to had had a suddenwealth event, had inherited
money, always was fiscally soundin terms of their own money
story and finances, but neverimagined they'd have the wealth
they have today, and they talkedabout how they haven't had
anyone.
We're new working together.
They haven't had anyone to talkto except for a family member
(21:49):
who also is receiving theinheritance and that can feel so
isolating and lonely.
How do you suggest for peoplethat are sitting in that seat
where they may not feelcomfortable they're, you know,
trying to protect the familyjewels and, you know, make sure
that they don't exposethemselves and also make sure
(22:10):
that they are not deemeddifferent than their surrounded
community.
Where are places they can havethese conversations to help to
feel more comfortable andprepared for their wealth?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (22:22):
Yeah,
no, I think that's important.
I think there is an assumptionnot everybody has it, but
there's an assumption in oursociety and certainly you read
it in the media a lot about whatit means to be wealthy, and
often there is a lot of negativeconnotation with that.
As opposed to there's a lot ofpeople who are very different,
who are great, who happen tohave inherited money or created
money, and then there's alsopeople who are great.
(22:43):
But I think, to answer yourquestion, you know, when you
talked about this person, Ithink about a client that I'm
working with money, butunderstand what it means to be
inheriting the money andencourage conversations in the
(23:04):
family about it.
One of the things that can bereally useful, in addition to
working with an advisor like youwho's open and can sit with the
feelings, and or maybe a coachlike me, are there are groups
out there where affluent womenwill get together and actually
come together and talk aboutwhat it's like to be in this
(23:26):
situation, because it'scomplicated and there's places
for affluent men as well.
But when I think about women,there is not only the if you're
inheriting money.
There is the mixed message inour society about what it means
to be profit motivated or to bewealthy as a woman, which
unfortunately is still a littlebit of a different message than
(23:48):
men get.
Women get that.
You know, the assumption issomehow they married into wealth
or, you know, they didsomething that has nothing to do
with their own skills toacquire it, whereas men would be
potentially be seen as you know.
Oh, that's so brilliant, youwere able to create this wealth
or inherit this wealth.
And so there's organizationsand I can get a list and you can
(24:09):
put some of those in the shownotes that have, you know, free
social hours, virtually.
I'm blanking on the name rightnow, to be honest with you.
But I've referred clients to itand it's really a great resource
and you know, there aredifferent ways in which you can
start to find safe people whoyou can have that conversation
(24:29):
with, because you're right, ifyou're too silent about it, it's
very isolating.
Let me tell you a quick story.
Yeah, I was doing a two-partwebinar for a financial services
firm and it was for theiraffluent clients and it was a
group of women, and what was sofascinating is the first of the
two webinars was all aboutunderstanding your money
(24:53):
personality and what are yourconcerns about having wealth,
and almost everyone in thisgroup said it's really
uncomfortable with my friends.
I don't know how much they haveversus I have.
I don't want to.
I want to invite them to abirthday party, but I don't want
to insult them if they can'tafford to go to like this
destination birthday party andit was so.
(25:16):
It was like such a through lineand all these women's
backgrounds were different, butthey all had a certain amount of
wealth and so if you're youknow, for your client and for
other people listening in, that,unfortunately, is part of the
experience.
But if we get together and getin community and break that
money silence, what we find iswe can figure it out.
You're more than thatinheritance and that often good
(25:41):
friends can be able to kind offigure out those pieces.
Melissa Joy (25:44):
I love it.
I do think it's.
You know, there's not.
You can't just have anannouncement, but you can kind
of broach and approach and, youknow, just make it more regular.
If you hang out with financialprofessionals, we just talk
about money all the time, not ina way that's like nosy or
inappropriate, but like do youmind my asking how much that
(26:05):
costs or how does that work, andthings like that.
And so you can kind of babystep into safe spaces, because
the reality is I know a lot ofmillionaires next door where you
would never know if you pulledup in the driveway, what was
going on behind the scenes.
And there are also so manypeople that seem to exhibit
signals and signs of beingextremely wealthy, that may you
(26:28):
know, have a thousand dollars inthe account at the end of the
month.
So you know that there's somuch kind of societal signaling
that can be a distraction orsend the wrong message.
Signaling that can be adistraction or send the wrong
message.
So, just like one-on-onediscussions and finding your
safe spaces over time can behelpful.
Kathleen Burns Kings (26:46):
Absolutely
.
I think the other thing that'sinteresting is, you know, I've
been an entrepreneur for over 20years and it's finding safe
spaces also to talk about, likeearnings or fees or you know
what somebody makes in a career,and so there's the saving,
spending, gifting and investingpiece, which is really important
.
But there's also like, as women,how do we figure out what we
(27:10):
should be earning if we'reasking, dare I say, too much,
not enough is usually the case,and what I've been really gifted
with and sought out over timeis just other women who can have
those conversations, and men, alot of male allies who will.
They'll be like you're, youknow you're thinking with a
female brain.
I would charge much more forthat, and so that can be really
(27:33):
useful when we're thinking about, especially for Gen Xers and
millennials who are moving upthe career ladder, when we're
thinking about getting promotedor negotiating our next deal,
because our earnings does impacthow we're able to take care of
ourselves and our family and howwe're able to invest.
And you know, Melissa, that I'mpassionate about it.
I just think it's an importantpiece of the puzzle.
Melissa Joy (27:55):
Well, human
capital is so important.
For many of us, it's ourlargest asset, and so you, I
know, must be passionate aboutthis topic, and you're
dovetailing into your bonuschapter how to unleash your true
value.
So what have you?
What compelled you to writethis edition into the book?
(28:17):
And and what do you have?
What should people be thinking?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (28:20):
about
into the book and what should
people be thinking about?
Well, it's interesting becausewhen I first wrote Breaking
Money Silence, it was all abouttalking with our loved ones,
talking with our financialadvisor.
We've already talked about that, and so I really wanted to
bring the Breaking Money Silencemessage into the workplace.
And because my area ofspecialty tends to be women and
wealth, whether I'm working withadvisors or whether I'm working
(28:41):
with women, it was a natural tokind of go OK, so it is
different for women when it getsto earnings.
You know whether we're able toget promoted.
You know it's pretty well knownthat there's less women in
leadership positions, thatthere's a gender wage gap, that
there's a gender investing gap,gender retirement gap, and so I
(29:02):
really wanted to look at thatand say what do we need to be
doing individually?
There are systematic issuesthis chapter doesn't address
that but what do we need to bedoing individually to advocate
for ourselves?
And I think the first thing iswe need to figure out what value
means like when we are sellingourselves, whether we work for a
firm, whether we work forourselves.
(29:22):
It's even selling ourselves interms of, like, a volunteer
position.
So it doesn't have to alwaysinvolve money, but it's really
thinking about what's our value.
And there's market value,there's our skills and knowledge
.
That's important.
The thing that I think womendiscount the most is their
superpower.
Each and every one of us has atleast one superpower, if not
(29:45):
more, and basically thatsuperpower is something that
probably comes quite easy to us,that is very valuable to the
other person, and so for you,melissa, my guess is there's a
way in which, meeting with you,people leave feeling a certain
way, and that emotional impactthat you have is your superpower
impacting them, and that's whypeople buy, so that's why
(30:07):
they're going to pay a certainfee, that's why you should be
paid a certain salary at acompany, and so how to unleash
your true value really talksabout how do you identify that
value and then how do youcommunicate it in a way where
you can advocate for yourselfand take care of yourself and
the people around you.
Melissa Joy (30:27):
I think this is so
important because in so many
cases, people come to me andthey say here's my dreams,
here's my goals, I really wantto do this.
And you look at the balancesheet, you look at the cash flow
and you say, we, this ispossible, you can do anything,
but if you don't change yourincome, what you were
compensated for when you'reworking 50, 60, 70 hours a week
(30:52):
and sometimes it requires a jobchange too but reorient if, if
you're not going to be valued inthe place that you are, do you
give them that discount foreveror do you make a change?
I just am automatically thinkingof a couple of clients,
separate situations I've workedwith where you know either the
cash flow wasn't working tooexpensive where we live, but
(31:14):
then you're working at a failingcompany that can never afford
to pay you what you're reallyworth, company that can never
afford to pay you what you'rereally worth.
Or you know, my dreams are thatin 10 years I'm working for
myself but I have a great nestegg and it's like well, you're
never going to be considered avice president in your current
company or compensatedeffectively for taking on that
(31:35):
true role, and you do need toshop around, and so it can be
profound when you start tochange your mindset to really be
compensated based on your value.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (31:44):
Well,
and when you bring up mindset,
you know there's a couple ofdifferent steps that are in the
chapter.
It walks you through a processto identify and communicate that
value, and one of the interimsteps is really adopting a
success mindset.
And I, you know that's lookingat the glass half full versus
half empty.
And I'll be transparent, I wasnot born looking at the glass
(32:07):
full, I had to learn that, andso one of the gifts that many,
many women have is they'reemotionally intelligent, they
are resilient, and so it'sapplying that to your
relationship with money and yourrelationship with earnings, and
so our mindset does make a yourrelationship with money and
your relationship with earnings,and so our mindset does make a
difference.
So when people understand, liketheir money personality or
archetype, they understand howto quickly bounce back and learn
(32:30):
from something that goes wrong,which is having a success
mindset, I find.
Then they're able to make thechanges or advocate for
themselves in a new way, whichis hard.
It can be scary.
Melissa Joy (32:43):
But what I find is
it takes risk.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (32:44):
Yeah,
I mean, and what I find is,
when I work with women andthey're able to do it on the
other side, it just feels sogood to be able to take care of
yourself.
And it's not just about themoney, it's about setting a
limit, it's about saying I'mworth something, it's about
standing up for yourself, rolemodeling to the people you know,
your kids or the people youngerpeople around you.
(33:06):
So there's a lot of differentaspects to it and it's been
really fun to explore that workand do more of it in the past
couple of years.
Melissa Joy (33:17):
Well, in those two
examples I think that you can
really, if you have the benefitof time and to reflect back,
like in each of those two kindof case studies, the person was
able to at least double theirannual take home by making some
shifts.
And you know, in many caseswhen you're an executive or
(33:37):
working for a publicly tradedcompany, another component of
that is equity compensation, forexample.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (33:44):
Yep,
there's all sorts of
compensation, yeah, yeah.
Melissa Joy (33:48):
And so, you know,
you need to educate yourself and
not just, you know, kind of goin and assume that you're going
to get the first, the firstoffer is the best offer.
What does this really mean?
And so in that, in those casestoo, that's, that's a great,
like you know, kind of asterisk,like, oh, we need a
professional in the room to beadvising us, because obviously
(34:10):
the employer has thoseprofessionals on the other side
of the table as well.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (34:14):
Right
and it's learning what is
negotiable and learning what youwant and what you need and that
ties to your values.
I mean, I had one person that Iwork with that money was not
what was important to her asmuch as time, so she actually
negotiated Wednesday morningsoff to take ice skating lessons.
I love it Because she said,they said they couldn't up her
(34:36):
salary and she goes OK, I wantWednesday mornings to take ice,
and it's not like she was an iceskating star, which makes it
even greater.
She just wanted to explore thisand she said you know what,
that's the best time of the week.
And I said well then, that'swhat was valuable to you.
Melissa Joy (34:53):
And that was worth
negotiating in your
compensation package.
I heard you slip in boundariesthere and you know that can
prolong a career, right.
So if you have a job whereyou're expected to be on call
Saturdays and Sundays, you know,establishing those boundaries
because you're going to be burntout and out the door in a year
can really prolong your abilityto like kind of have that asset
of your human capital.
(35:13):
So I would encourage you tothink, just like you're
describing, of how to integratethings that are important to you
and also have limitations, sothat you don't, you know, give
more to the job than you do tothe rest of your life.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (35:26):
Yes,
that's great advice.
I think one of the things thatthat people come to me and say
which is not true, but Iunderstand where it comes from
is if I just work harder, thenI'll get noticed, and I'm like
that isn't how it works.
Unfortunately, it's not how itworks.
That leads to burnout.
And so, yes, setting goodboundaries, working with a
(35:48):
professional to understand yourmoney mindset and also looking
at you.
Know how do I make sure andthis is your end of things,
melissa that financially I havethe things in place and I'm
earning what I need to earn inorder to achieve my goals.
And I've been in a lot ofdifferent professions this is my
third career.
(36:09):
They've all progressed towardsthis one and I have to tell you
it's scary at first, but thenit's so liberating to be able to
do something you're passionateabout and take care of yourself
and set those boundaries, and Ireally encourage people to read
the bonus chapter and reallythink about how they can shift
things.
Melissa Joy (36:26):
Well, I think it
is, you know, kind of a call to
be strategic when it comes todon't just accept whatever is
given.
Really have an approach whereyou're tending to that asset,
You're really looking at yourcash flow and your ability to
earn in a way where you'reappreciated, you know your value
(36:47):
and you're working towardachieving or even extending
beyond what you might think ispossible.
Kathleen Burns Kings (36:55):
Absolutely
, totally agree.
Melissa Joy (36:57):
Well, as I was
thinking about this conversation
, I hope that our listeners inall of these discussions that I
have with amazing guests likeKathleen are hearing that this
is a conversation.
Money really is just somethingwhere opening the door, opening
up a little bit with a safespace, having with your partners
(37:19):
, with your friends, having aset aside for the people that
you can trust to have theseconversations, and including
these minutes, whether they'reon the treadmill or in the car,
as part of your moneyconversations.
I think I hope that you findyou know kind of the examples
set as positive and hopeful andI just love that you're putting
(37:41):
the space in the world, kathleen, to help people understand and
learn how to communicate aboutmoney and just for everyone.
I strongly recommend the book umBreaking Money Silence.
We will have links in the shownotes so that people can um get
access to the book.
But, kathleen, what else wouldyou mention in terms of where
(38:03):
people can find you and anyother resources you may have?
Kathleen Burns Kingsbury (38:06):
Sure,
um, the biggest resource that
I'm offering everybody who'slistening today or downloading
it later is there is a prepare amoney conversation handout.
It walks you through how youcan prepare for a conversation
that you are feeling anxiousabout, and so we'll have a link
in the show notes for that.
You can use that in talking toyour kids, your partner, your
(38:27):
boss.
It's kind of a general tool, soI want to make sure everybody
had that, whether they boughtthe book or not.
It's kind of a general tool, soI want to make sure everybody
had that, whether they boughtthe book or not.
If you want to know more aboutmy work, the best place to go is
my website, which iskbkwealthconnectioncom, and it's
a training, coaching andconsulting firm, and I'd be more
than happy to break moneysilence with you.
Melissa Joy (38:49):
Well, keep up the
amazing work.
Congratulations on the secondedition of the book and thank
you so much for joining us.
Kathleen Burns Kingsbu (38:55):
Kathleen
.
Thank you, melissa, I love thework you're doing.
Melissa Joy (39:10):
Thank you for
listening to the Women's Money
Wisdom Podcast.
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Go to pearlplancom and thepodcast link to get all the
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