May 21, 2025 • 36 mins
I had the privilege of working with Lily, who dealt with chronic knee pain and weakness since college. Can’t say it was easy, but with hard work, she overcame wearing knee braces, relying on medication, and most importantly overcame the fear of training her knee.
I’m very happy to have clients like Lily who trusted me and put in the work.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
All right.
Welcome in.
I am Dr.
Jason Won, a lifestyle physicaltherapist.
As you guys know, I help a lotof people worldwide and also in
the San Francisco Bay Arearelieve chronic pain, help them
get stronger, and also just putthem on the right trajectory for
better health, especially ifpain is not a limiting factor.
And today I have the blessingand privilege to get to
(00:22):
interview one of my clients.
Her name is Lily, and me andLily have worked with each other
for a few sessions, and it'sjust been a real joy, obviously
seeing her grow, seeing hertransformation, and then yes.
I was honored to, when she saidyes, I'd love to be interviewed
and to share my experience.
So Lily, yeah, just want tothank you for being here and how
are you doing today?
(00:43):
Thanks.
Happy to be here.
I am doing great today because Idon't have knee pain.
I'm glad to hear that.
I know that when we, even beforewe started and we were just like
consulting and talking about, Ithink we've had a few
conversations even before wewere talking to each other.
You've mentioned to me manytimes that you've had knee
(01:03):
issues.
We just brushed it off becausewhen we did meet each other, it
wasn't like something that's attop of mind during gatherings
and all that.
But just share with me a littlebit about like just.
Just that journey that you beenon.
So before you started workingtogether, paint the picture for
our audience of what daily lifekinda looked like with this type
and knee issue, how it startedas well.
Do you mind sharing that?
(01:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
So my knee pain, it's 10 yearsin the making.
I, first, I'm like, we're gonnago down memory lane here.
I first felt it in college.
I was having a lazy day.
My friends and I were just.
Marathon binging TV shows andeating pizza on the couch.
And my knee started hurting.
It was stiff wasn't great, but Iignored it and went to bed.
(01:48):
Next day it was gone, so didn'tgive a second thought to it.
And then fast forward tograduation, I got a nine to five
job and I sat at a desk all day,five days a week.
Like many.
Like most people do.
And by 3:00 PM each day, myknees started hurting and it was
(02:09):
awful.
I couldn't really walk on it.
And I would get to the gym andonce I got like a gym routine
going, I felt a little better.
But it kept progressing to thepoint that even if I worked out,
even if I was active, it, thepain still kept coming.
And eventually it got to a pointwhere.
(02:30):
I just felt really anxious aboutit all the time.
If my knee wasn't activelyhurting, I was waiting for it to
hurt.
And like that mental load wasjust, it was a lot.
It was just every day like, allright, when am I gonna be in
pain?
When am I gonna not be able towalk anymore?
So it was pretty rough.
I'd carry Advil with meeverywhere I go and.
(02:51):
I'd worry about things likesitting in a car on a road trip
or something, or sitting on the,like in a movie theater for a
couple of hours.
'cause that sitting positionjust aggravated my knee a lot.
Gotcha.
Yeah, I actually dealt with alot of similar things, which I
feel like I told you about, Ifeel like I was a good athlete
my entire life, but, a lot ofpeople, they get pain when
(03:13):
they're more active or like theymight tear a ligament.
And there are some wheresometimes it's not during the
times that you're active, it'swhen you're not act, it's when
you're not active.
So if you're sitting in a carfor a long period of time, or a
very common thing that we sayin, in physical therapy is the
theater sign where if your legsare bent at a 90 degree angle, a
lot of times, like you can't sitin a theater for a long period
(03:34):
of time.
So I dealt with it.
A lot of that myself.
I think that's why I feltactually very confident to work
with you because I was like, oh,this is stuff that like, sounds
very eerily similar to thingsthat I've faced.
And I always try to lead byexample in terms of saying that
I empathize, but also if there'ssomething that, that I've dealt
with myself, I'm more than athousand percent sure that I can
(03:55):
help you.
So what were out outside of justmain, but like the mental load.
Do you mind describing that alittle bit more?
What did you mean by mentalload?
Was it more.
Fear mongering?
Or was it just like I wasworried about the future?
Can you elaborate on that?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It was, yeah, day to day Iwould, I'm like sitting at my
desk and I'm like, when's itgonna kick in?
(04:15):
Is it now is, should it take anAdvil now or should I wait till
later?
I was also like, it would reallyupset me like this would.
It would make me reallyemotional thinking about not
being able to run after likepets or kids stooping down to
pick up my niece and give her ahug or I don't know, I drop
something, I need something topick something off the floor and
(04:39):
I wouldn't be able to bend myknee.
And it just made me feel like,I'm 32.
This has been hurting me since Iwas about in my twenties.
And I'm just thinking can I livethe rest of my life like this?
Is it gonna get so much worse?
Like I was, yeah, I'm like 30going on like 80.
That's how I was feeling.
And I'm like, my youth is beingtaken away from me because I
(05:00):
can't do simple things likesquatting down running after
things and just.
Being active.
Things that I like doing.
I really like hiking or doingyoga and Pilates and even those
things like just doing like thewarrior pose.
It hurt my knee, yeah.
Yeah, the knee is just,probably, in my opinion, is the
(05:22):
most common ailment in the lowerbody for some physiologically
physiological purposes.
For anybody that's listening, Ithink the knee is most subjected
to injury or the stuff that youfeel, because the knee is just
this one joint between twoothers and so the knee is just
subjected to.
Whatever the hip or the anklewants to do.
So whether you are running wrongand like the foot's hitting the
(05:44):
pavement wrong, that affects theknee, or a lot of times you're
not, if you sit for a longperiod of time, which is what
you did.
And what a lot of people donowadays is that the hip
muscles, they either get weak orthey get stiff.
So that ends up affecting thearea down below.
Which again is the knee.
So that's why the knee is likeone in four people in the world.
And that's a pretty bigpercentage.
25% of people in the world willhave some sort of knee issue in
(06:07):
their lives.
A lot of times it does becomemore chronic.
If not solved in the right way.
So again, leads me into my nextquestion.
I know, Lily, it's been, you'vebeen having this for over a
decade and we can definitelydive into the transformation
that you had, but it wasprogressively getting worse
until we started doing stuff.
So what did you try, what weresome of the many avenues,
(06:29):
treatments, protocols, andthings that you tried?
Prior to working with me.
And I guess, what were some ofyour your expectations going
into those treatments?
Yeah, I've had a ton.
Let's see.
Before working out with you Iwas working out on my own.
Like I'd go to the gym.
I've always been pretty active.
I didn't know which exerciseswere helping me or hurting me.
(06:50):
I wasn't sure is walking theright thing to do or running, or
should I be doing squats?
Should I be lifting heavy?
Like what is good for me?
And because my knee hurt, I waslike, should I stop doing it or
should I keep going?
I wasn't really sure about anyof that.
What else should I do?
Oh, I had gone to other physicaltherapists.
(07:13):
They gave me exercises.
I didn't find'em very helpful.
It wasn't, and after a while Iwouldn't stay consistent with
them.
I had been told to get newshoes.
I did.
That didn't do much for me.
I've had two cortisone shots inmy knee.
Didn't help it.
It just numbed the pain for awhile.
One lasted me two weeks.
(07:33):
Pain came right back.
One helped for a couple ofmonths and yeah, it didn't.
Lessened the pain.
It just numbed it for a bit.
And then what else did I have?
Oh, I had a knee brace for thelongest time.
I walked around it with a kneebrace, so that was another thing
I had to carry with me on top ofthe Advil everywhere I went.
(07:54):
Put on a knee brace.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's almost it feels like you'reconstantly in a state of
protection, right?
Mentally, it's you whensomething hurts, we tend to want
to guard it.
We tend to protect it.
A common narrative that I thinkthat I always try to debunk is
if it hurts, don't do anything.
So this is commonly the.
The thing that your physicaltherapist would say, this is
(08:16):
commonly what your doctor wouldsay and many others.
So if an exercise hurts, juststop what you're doing.
And I think that always comes,in my opinion, that always comes
from a place of fear, right?
It's okay, no, pump the brakes.
Stop what you're doing, becauseclearly that's not the right
avenue to go.
So let's completely turn awayfrom that and do something else.
(08:36):
I find that's very.
Disempowering not just to you,but to others.
So like very commonly, if youwere squatting, that's very
common that if you're like, oh,if squatting hurts, just don't
do it.
Do something else, right?
Go for a walk.
But you fail to realize that youneed squatting and.
Literally everyday life.
So a lot of times it does scar,somebody leaves a permanent
(08:56):
imprint.
Oh, if squatting's bad for me, Ishould just not do it.
But okay, now you lose theability to sit on a couch.
You lose the ability to sit in atheater, sit onto the toilet,
and it hurts every time you siton the toilet.
It's just'cause you don't buildinto that.
So any case I digress in termsof saying there's a lot of
mental aspects and a lot ofthings that we say.
(09:18):
Or that a practitioner would saythat often leads to very
permanent deficits.
And it's not your fault, it'sjust that there's an
authoritative figure that said,don't do this, don't do that.
And then oftentimes we lead welive in a state of protection.
AKA you wear a brace at alltimes.
You carry the medication in yourpocket at all times.
So I'm very glad that obviouslyyou've unleashed those things.
(09:39):
You don't have to carry thosethings anymore.
That's a beautiful thing to see.
With that being said, like Iknow that I am a physical
therapist although I feel likeI'm a very good one, an
orthopedic specialist so mindyou sharing like between, I
dunno how many PTs you did, likehow many bouts of different
physical therapists have youseen?
Just one or a couple.
I.
Two, I saw two physicaltherapists.
(10:00):
One, I went just one time.
He gave me some exercises andtold me to do them.
The other one I scheduled likeseveral appointments.
I think I went once a month forabout six months.
Yeah.
And then I went to sportsmedicine, so I didn't, I'm not
sure if it was like theexercises or the consistency or
whatever it was.
(10:21):
Maybe all of it.
It just, it didn't really workfor me.
So maybe we can just delineatethat further, if you don't mind
me asking, because I thinkphysical therapy obviously has
this place That is why I chosethis profession and'cause I
freaking love it.
It gives me a lot of joy when Iget to help my clients not just
relieve pain, but like even justtransform their life and their
(10:42):
consistency and their habits.
So I don't like the poke bears,in terms of like physical
therapy because I think every.
Physical therapist, every healthpractitioner they're usually
doing things with the rightintention.
However, sometimes they're goingabout it wrong or they're going
about things not optimally,which that's why it left you in
frustration, so what do you mindme asking what are some of a few
(11:03):
things that was different aboutworking with me versus working
with some of the otherpractitioners that you saw?
I think something working withyou is you pushed like heavy
weights.
And I didn't, don't scare peopleby the way.
Did.
Yeah.
Not, it's nothing ridiculous.
You start with lighter weight,but we're doing weight training.
It's not like you have to startwith the heaviest weight ever
(11:25):
and you're gonna, it doesn'twork.
It's just like you start withlower weights or nothing at all,
and then you progress week byweek.
And you really push, every weekbe better.
Whereas I think my old physicaltherapist was.
It was mostly just like usinglike a very weak band.
Actually.
You saw the bands that I had.
You're like, what is this?
(11:45):
Why is this so like flimsy?
Yeah, it was like clamshellswalking with a band around my
eyes things like that.
But there was no weight trainingthere, and so it wasn't growing
my muscle.
I think probably wasn't growingmy muscle faster than my body
was losing it.
I know you, just for background,if it's okay to share it, but I
(12:06):
know you had some prettysignificant atrophy of the left
quad.
It was actually very apparent.
I didn't have to measure it.
It was just like, it was veryobvious that I.
Right side had a good amount ofgirth and it had like teardrops.
And then the left side literallyjust, it was like more tubular,
right?
It's just like much thinner innature.
And not just that, but like alsothe knee.
You lacked extension, right?
(12:27):
So you 30, 32 years of age, butyou already had a knee that.
Lacked significant range ofmotion.
You couldn't lock it out.
So those are just a lot of timesyou give somebody bands and you
just strengthen the hip, butyou're not addressing like the
strength and the resilience ofthe knee and pushing it.
Then a lot of times it staysexactly the same.
This is an honest question.
(12:48):
If it's okay, and you can bereally transparent on this
podcast, that's fine.
Did you have any, I knowconsidering your previous
experiences, did you have anyconcerns, doubts or uncertainty
when I was hey, like saying Hey,let's get the ball rolling.
Let's try to work with me.
I know you've known me for awhile, so kinda get the ball
rolling.
Was there any, like objectionsor uncertainties in your head
about doing things before westarted?
(13:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna lie, I was prettyjaded by the time I got to you
because I've been living withthis for so long.
I've tried so many approaches tohealing my leg.
And I was like, really?
Like I don't think my body canjust heal itself on exercise
alone.
Like building up the muscle isgonna stop the pain.
They told me it's patellofemoralsyndrome.
I had, and because of that, itcaused inflammation and then I
(13:30):
had a cyst and that's, yeah, allthis stuff was going on in my
knee and I was no way.
Just building up the muscle.
Stop all that.
But it really did like buildingup the muscle.
Made it my joints like, aren'tpressing upon each other,
causing inflammation, and so thepain's gone away.
It's insane.
It's magic, it's voodoo.
I don't know what this is, butit's science.
(13:52):
That's what it's definitelyscience.
There's no magic hands here.
I think that it's a lot of timeswhat I always say is that like
I.
Back in the day when I was 2015,much I think cockier of a
therapist and I was like, ohshoot.
I have the hands of magic,right?
So a lot of my treatment wasvery manual based.
What can I do with my hands?
I can crack someone's back andthen magically they're off the
(14:12):
table.
Man, I feel so much better.
There is a place for manualtherapy.
I've definitely switched mypractice to past.
Six years in terms of justproviding knowledge, one of what
to do with your symptoms.
Number two, like empowering youthat you can do this on your
own.
It's just a matter of just likereally implementing it.
And then three, it's liketeaching you principles around
progressive overload andstrengthening this issues and
(14:34):
making sure that you're notseeing the same.
And if you are you know thisalready Lily, like I called you
out and I was like, you're doingexactly the same.
You're not progressing, you'renot really pushing to
contractile failure.
So we really demonstrated that.
Together, and I think that youobviously have expressed and
defined that resilience overtime which I'm very happy about.
So in terms of.
(14:55):
I guess we can go back to maybein an instance, I remember there
was like two, three weeks intous working together.
There was a moment where youwere like a little bit
teary-eyed because you were, Ithink you were sick, and then
you right you fell off for aweek and you're like, oh, that's
making good progress.
And then you fell off becauseyou just weren't going to the
gym.
And then you got, your mindsetkind of started wavering, right?
(15:16):
You're like.
It's really frustrating.
I know I'm only three weeks in,but this won't get better.
So do you remember some of theverbiage and some of the
conversation around that and doyou mind sharing that?
Yeah, I remember I got sickaround the holidays and yeah, I
didn't go to the gym for a bitand my legs started hurting
again and I was like, this isn'tworking out.
(15:37):
It's gonna be exactly the sameas before the pain.
It was just so awful.
And to feel like that muchdespair at such a young age,
it's really disheartening.
Yeah, you like, you're like,Hey, you just gotta get back on
there.
You built me some new routines.
Hey, you're not feeling up togoing to the gym.
And we all know if you're sick,don't spread it around.
(15:57):
So here's some things you can doat home.
Maybe you can't do your fullworkout, maybe you can't do.
You don't have access to all thestuff that you have at the gym,
but this is what you can do inthe meantime.
Don't completely fall off.
There's something you can stilldo to keep you on track.
We all take ownership of ourhealth, right?
So when we're sick I always tryto tell my clients, try to
maintain a bare minimumstandard.
(16:19):
You don't have to do your fullroutine.
You don't even have to do the.
The large amount of weight, youdon't always have to
consistently take things tofailure, but at the same time,
you gotta keep your body honest,right?
You gotta keep it on track.
So it's very easy for people tolose.
Endurance to lose strengthrelatively quickly.
And it's unfortunate becausewhatever hire being that made us
(16:42):
human is that like we have towork that much harder to get our
strength there and it becomeshard.
It's like an uphill battle whenyou're hip that hitting those
heavier weights.
But it's so easy to fall intocomplacency and just fall off
the wagon and lose a ton ofprogress.
Six months of progress.
You lose that in like less thana month, right?
So that's why, I think one thingthat I try to do that separates
(17:02):
my practice is like really keepmy clients accountable, really
have my voice heardconsistently, and to teach you
that this is something you dolifelong.
This is not physical therapywhere you get in, your symptoms
are relieved and then you canjust go back to your normal
lifestyle, right?
This does become a part of yourlifestyle.
(17:23):
And so if I'm.
I wouldn't be the best fit foranybody that says, I'm just
looking for a quick fix.
I'm always looking for peoplethat really want long-term
change.
So again, very excited that'sthe trajectory you're on because
I know that you willconsistently work out and I
think it's a beautiful thing.
So you highlighted.
Before the muscle loss.
(17:43):
And that there was some relianceon medication or like
anticipating it, taking itbeforehand or taking it after.
I don't know, were you givenanything else outside of
medication from your providerand I think there was like the
injection and everything yeah.
Yeah, new shoes, I actually,yeah, cortisone shots.
And then there's also.
(18:04):
Knee tape and electric nervestimulation.
They put two little things andthen, but I can't do that at
home.
That's, you go into the clinicand they can do it for you there
for 20 minutes, but after that,when am I supposed to do?
Did you, I know this is somepeople they just go through the
motions and they just go downthat route.
(18:24):
'cause they're misinformed.
They're just like, oh I need thetense unit because it, it shocks
the muscle and it relieves thepain.
Was there a time or was there adelay period where you're like,
at some point you just came to arealization that I need to
change my route of how I'm goingabout this, or, when did you
come to that realization?
I guess the first time I did ptI.
(18:44):
I only went once didn't go backand I was like, you know what?
That's probably on me.
I wasn't consistent.
I didn't keep up with it.
The second time, I was like, no,this is it.
I'm gonna fix it.
I made all these appointments,made sure I kept up with it.
And it's still didn't work aftersix months, after the cortisone
shot like I had.
The best doctor who he wasawesome did everything he could
(19:06):
for me.
And I'm like, it still didn'twork.
And I'm like, I can't live likethis.
Like it's too early to throw inthe towel and just be disabled,
not using one of the biggestmuscles in my body.
So yeah, I was like, I need totry everything.
I've tried the knee brace.
I've tried, I tried everything.
They threw at me.
So do you find with the, whenyou had the when you were having
(19:28):
a lot more debilitating kneeissues, was it harder for you to
just stay present to just bemore present with your husband
or with your family and do youfeel like your ma your mind was
constantly like drifting into,like worrying about the future
at all?
And I'm just gonna get yourperspective'cause I've worked
with other, a few thousandpeople over the past six years
since starting my business and.
(19:50):
A lot of people, as theirmindset shifts into different
places, they perseverate overwhat happened in the past.
They hate the past.
Sometimes they really dwell inthe future and then they can't
stay present.
So I'm just curious on your endabout your mindset.
I.
Oh, definitely.
I think the anxiety of it washonestly like such a huge part
of it because yeah, not only amI worrying about what's
(20:11):
presently gonna happen to me,but I'm worrying about yeah,
future.
Am I going to be able to, I.
Have kids and take care of themproperly.
Can I take'em to the park andrun around?
I want a dog.
And what if this dog like runstoo far and I can't chase after
it, yeah.
(20:31):
I can't enjoy an evening on thecouch just watching TV'cause my
leg gonna hurt.
I couldn't wear high heels whenI went out with friends, things
like that.
What else was there?
I don't know, just like even I'mcooking in the kitchen and
there's like a pot at the in thebottom cupboard and I'm like, I
have to squat down to go get it.
I don't wanna do this.
(20:52):
It hurts.
It just affected every part ofmy life.
So this has been a huge changefor me.
For sure.
I think I told you a little bitabout this, but tho those words
when you first said Iperseverated about the future,
and then you mentioned kids.
That was actually how I felt.
Your pain started when you werelike twenties.
I got into a really.
Bad car wreck when I was 20, andthen also my dad passed away
(21:14):
around the same time.
So that was a moment in my lifewhere when my dad passed away,
and then I had a lot of chronicneck issues because of the
mixture of that emotionalturmoil of losing a father, but
also my issues weren't goingaway.
And so my thoughts were the samething.
It was like, my neck issues areso bad I can't even sit in a car
for more than 10 minutes.
How do I even expect to havekids?
(21:37):
Because I can't carry them.
I can't look down for a longperiod of time.
I can't keep them.
I, I always dreamt of having mykids on my shoulders for, and
watch the parades at Disneylandkind of thing.
And I was like, dude, I can't doany of that.
And thankfully enough in thesame way that you've made your
transformation I discovered myown transformation of how
powerful it is to.
Be strong, right?
And strong is actuallyassociated with being pain free.
(21:59):
That doesn't match with a lot ofpeople.
Like they don't see thatconnection, but i'm, I think,
my, my son I keep my son on myneck for two hours.
And'cause he forgets that he haslegs.
So like I'm carrying him undermy arm for many hours in Taiwan
that I just went back to.
I carry him on my shoulders fortwo hours straight and I'm proud
of that.
I can have the capacity to dothose things versus I know a lot
(22:22):
of people, they accept.
Their way of life life riddledwith pain.
And definitely a big change.
May I ask like when, during thetimes that we were working
together, like how fast did youstart to notice those kind of
initial changes of likepositivity and relief and, what
do you feel like there wereeither specific moments or
exercises that you feltparticularly were like the most
(22:44):
impactful?
So I think we started workingtogether right before the
holidays and I was so excitedbecause I think I.
Like a couple weeks after westarted working together, I had
a few days where I didn't takeany medication.
And then it lasted a week and Iwas just like, I think it's been
like a month since I've takenany Advil.
(23:06):
Which is amazing.
Actually, I saw an episode ofGrey's Anatomy where a girl took
too much Advil, so I think shelike died from it.
I don't know, it's a TV show,but I was like, I, that can't be
me.
I don't want that to happen tome.
And then when I got sick, yeah,it didn't work out for a couple
of weeks and.
Advil every day came right backand I was like, oh man, here we
(23:28):
are again.
But since then, since you'veupdated my workouts and I know
don't slip that far.
Don't go that long withoutworking out or just do
something.
I don't think I've taken Advillike.
I don't know, for a couplemonths now.
It's amazing.
It's freeing.
Did I answer your question?
Wait, was there another project?
Yeah, definitely.
(23:48):
And know were there either onespecific'cause I love to teach
principles, right?
You know that I talk a lotclearly that's why I have a
podcast.
But I also, I love to teach alot when I am doing my sessions
with people.
I also like to think that Iprovide, the right exercises
that really.
Inch needle forward a lot couldyou share maybe either whether
(24:10):
it's exercises or principle thatyou're gonna always live by that
you really felt like made a hugedifference, especially for your
knee issues?
Yeah.
So the first one I just said, itwas just like even if I can't do
my workout, I don't have time todo my full workout.
You don't have to be perfect.
Do something, like every stepyou take gets you closer to
where you wanna be.
(24:30):
So if you take no steps, you'regonna stay where you're at or
slide backwards.
Another thing is to keep pushingmyself.
I was trying to be perfect.
Do perfect.
12 reps before I move on to thenext weight.
And you're like, no, you're notprogressing fast enough.
Move on to the next weight evenif you don't think you can do
it.
And yeah, it got me pushingmyself way harder than I used to
(24:53):
and I saw progress much fasterlike that.
Yeah, I was at the gym thismorning and I was.
I was doing hamstring curls andI was stoked because I was like,
I remember when I did thelightest weight on this, and it
was a struggle, and now I'm likedoing way more weights than I
thought I ever could.
I did it with ease and I'm like,it's time to move up and next.
(25:13):
Wait.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And do you recall, I think whenyou were doing we were testing
leg extensions as well, right?
Yeah.
And that was, that's the onethat, that you were, I think I
almost cried.
You were scared to do it.
You actually almost, you almostcried when you were like, you're
gonna make me do this right now.
And I was like, we gotta testfor it.
We gotta see how you do because.
If you never overcome yourfears, then you're never gonna
(25:34):
do it.
Yeah.
And I was like, this is gonna beone of the best exercise for you
at some point.
I don't even know your numbers,but I know you were pretty
stoked when we opened up likelateral squats, cosac squats,
leg extensions, all becamerelatively pain-free.
Which opened up avenues.
So you're like, oh, there'snothing in the gym that I can't
do, right?
I remember that first morningdoing the cosac squat.
I couldn't do it like, and Itexted you, I think it was like
(25:56):
seven o'clock in the morning.
I was like.
I can't do this.
What do I do?
And you're like, hold ontosomething.
Support yourself.
And I did.
And now I have maxed out on theweights that they have at the
gym, so that's awesome.
That's crazy.
So I'm like really happy.
I was like, that was my mostfeared.
Exercise, second most feared,and now I, I love doing it.
(26:18):
Yeah.
Let's, I guess let's talk aboutfear really quick because that
is pain will impact you in manyways.
Whether it's like disabling andyou can't get back to the
activity that you want to do orwhether it's causing a lot of
mindset issues and it's eitherfeeling a sense of helplessness
or fear.
Do you feel like.
The things that you felt beforeus working together was the
(26:38):
primary thing that reallyimpacted you the most from a
mental or physical standpoint?
Was it fear or was it likesomething else?
I guess I.
Yeah.
Fears, it's like pain isobviously like the physical,
it's awful.
It's there.
I have to fix it.
My, my knee would get superstiff and I couldn't move and
couldn't enjoy life.
But giving myself like themental freedom to stop worrying
(27:02):
about it and thinking about itlike all hours of the day, it's
been really great.
Yeah, it's honestly liberating.
Yeah.
I think you wrote a review andI'm very privileged to have
those reviews.
Almost like my tattoo.
It's it's always gonna beforever imprinted onto my Google
page, which is, it's really goodbecause like I can always go
back, it's like going back intoa memory book, right?
(27:23):
So I'll look back at it twoyears from now and be like, oh
shoot.
I remember when I worked withLily, I remember the experience
and the great friendship that wedeveloped, during our time
working together.
One thing, I just wanna break upthat review and you mentioned.
Quote unquote, the program gaveyou tools to live without paint.
That I was a, one of the onesthat taught you about your
(27:45):
muscles and how to reawakenthem.
Can you elaborate on what thelearning process was like in
terms of what you did the pastfew months and how ultimately
empowered you to take control ofyour knee health?
I.
My knee problem was diagnosed aspatellofemoral.
Didn't know what that meant.
Didn't know how to reverse it.
It was, they were just like,here, do these exercises.
And I'm fairly active.
(28:06):
I love doing yoga, liftingweights, doing Pilates, and I.
Yeah, I could see my legshaking.
I could see, like when I'm doingdown dog and I'm looking at my
leg, one side is engaged and onewas just there.
It was just existing.
It was not engaging at all.
Or like my leg was shaking and Iwas like, I don't.
I don't know is what I'm doinghurting it or is it helping it?
(28:28):
I don't know.
So I just like you said earlier,back off go and protect mode and
you taught me like, Hey, that,that shaking the muscle's being
fatigued, keep going at it, keeppushing it.
And when you get it to bestronger, it's not gonna shake
like that anymore.
So yeah, he taught me like howmy muscles work, how they all
like they're yeah, how they worktogether.
(28:49):
Yeah, he taught me to pushmyself.
That if I work out withmachines, I can't hurt myself.
Although you can't, machineswill take the front of the heat.
Yep, yep.
I, I don't need to be afraid ofadding on weights because I
won't hurt myself.
It's just gonna help.
Yeah, it's really cool to seehow far I've come because you've
taught me to push myself and,yeah.
(29:09):
Yeah, that's the one of thebiggest things is that's why I
like to document things.
That's why I have an app.
That's why I like to look at thenumbers and be like, let the
numbers speak for itself, right?
Because if your numbers aren'tgoing up, that's not a sign of
growth and on your end.
But also I know on my end thatlike you, you gotta be.
Willing to take the next steps,right?
Be willing to add some incrementof difficulty in the form of
(29:32):
speed or increase your reps by acouple.
A lot of times people will getinto the mistake that they want
to quote unquote maintain musclemass throughout their life,
right?
A lot.
You hear that all the time,right?
Lily?
I wanna maintain my muscle mass.
'cause I'm thinking about it.
I'm 30, usually after the age of30 you're losing muscle mass.
Very commonly people make thatmistake of, I wanna maintain
(29:52):
muscle mass, but they're notactually progressing their
exercise.
They're doing the same.
They're like that I thought thatwas supposed to do.
You maintain, you do the samesets, the same reps.
As long as you do that, you'remaintaining, but actually you're
declining.
Because you, you want tomaintain by actually progressing
the weights.
And so when you're 50, 60 yearsof age, you'll have a nice,
beefy looking left quad, andthen you have more you,
(30:13):
obviously you're gonna losesome, but you're gonna have much
more to lose.
That, in my opinion, is thedefinition of maintenance.
Because you're trying toovershoot your consistency,
overshoot your, the amount ofstrength and muscle mass that
you can build as your, as youage.
And then you have more despairthat defines quality of life
there.
Because if you just flatlinefrom here, Lily, your quality of
life would not be that good inyour seventies and eighties.
(30:34):
You would just lose asignificant amount.
Especially Asian women that havebone density issues, and I'm
sure you have family membersthat have that as well.
Definitely anybody that'slistening definitely have that
growth mindset.
Don't think that you can just goto the gym and just go through
the motions and just do the samestuff.
You have to have a mindset likeLily, where.
You, we, we caught you.
(30:55):
Like just doing the same thingwith certain exercises and
you're like, oh, that's got, I'mlittle fearful.
I wanna be perfect in it, butsometimes you just have to be
like, Hey, it's okay to beimperfect, but it's actually
more important to progress,right?
You have to challenge yourselfwithin each and every exercise
in each and every set.
So just a couple more questionshere.
One thing, I like to inspirepeople, and this is always just
(31:16):
based on your own words becauseI think whoever I get to
interview your words are goingto inspire someone.
It may not inspire one personbecause they, I guess they
resonate with another message,but I think hopefully whatever
you decide to say in your, inindividual way will hopefully
speak volumes to somebody,right?
So somebody that may havechronic knee issues, maybe they
don't have chronic knee issues,but they just resonate with who
(31:37):
you are as a person.
They'll, for someone.
I'm listening who's beenstruggling with either chronic
knee pain or any persistentpain.
That they feel like can't besolved.
Perhaps they feel like theytried and failed a number of
things or failed, like themedical system failed them.
What message of hope would youwant to share based on your
experience?
On the days I get like a littlediscouraged I, or try to remind
(32:00):
myself, just keep going at it.
You don't have to be perfect.
Just keep chipping away at it.
It took me 10 years to lose allthis muscle.
It's not gonna come back rightaway.
It's not a, can't expect amiracle.
So keep pushing harder weights,consistency, and yeah, every
step I take is a step closer towhere I wanna be.
(32:21):
So just, yeah.
Keep going at it.
I love that.
Looking back at your journey,what do you feel was like the
most valuable aspect of usworking together and doing this
physical therapy program, which,maybe is a little unique with
mixture of nutrition and likereally pushing the boundaries on
like your knowledge and pushing,pushing your limits.
(32:41):
Which I don't know even youcoming me into this, but what do
you feel is the most valuable?
Is it like the accountabilitypiece?
Just maintaining motivation,having a program set for you.
The custom program was honestlyso valuable, just tailoring to
my schedule what I have accessto my needs, and then ha the
accountability is a closesecond.
(33:04):
So have it.
It's.
It's what I could handle.
And then you changed it up too,so it didn't get too like
stagnant.
So those are really helpful.
The app was really great, likebeing able to track my progress
and look back on how far I'vecome.
It's really encouraging.
So all of those were reallygreat, and then having access to
(33:25):
you at any time too was reallygreat.
So thanks for answering all myrandom questions.
When I was like, how do I dothis?
I can't tell, but yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, all of it was really greatand good.
Helped me get me to where I amso good.
So if anybody were to say, wouldyou work with Dr.
Jay, what would you say to themthen?
Oh, a thousand percent.
Yes.
It was best thing ever.
(33:47):
And I'm not just saying it, justlike seriously giving myself
pain-free life.
No anxiety about this.
I would've spent so much moneyon this.
When, I'm sorry I'm rambling,but I'm like, yeah.
When I'm in pain, I was like, Iwill pay a million dollars to
get rid of this pain.
And I didn't have to spend that.
So very happy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know if you had anyother final words, but I feel
like a lot of the words that youmentioned just speak volume.
(34:10):
Just to recap on things that,for some themes that came out of
your words it's more like.
Don't fear pain, right?
It's sometimes you have to pushinto pain in order to get rid of
it.
A lot of times you have torealize that sometimes a lot of
the passive stuff, whether it'sinjections or sometimes easy
exercises, it's just not gonnacut it.
You really have to put in a goodamount of effort in order to get
(34:32):
to where you want to be, tobuild up that strength again.
We know that accountabilitycomes a long way.
A lot of times with chronicpain, your mind will falter,
right?
You Lily also as well.
Yeah.
Went through theserollercoasters of emotions.
The highs, the lows, the will Iget better?
Is this even working?
Like I said, when you have,hopefully a good accountability
coach, like I think like myselfyou can do amazing things.
(34:56):
And lastly yeah, it's just finda practitioners that's
empathetic.
I think that's actually the mostimportant thing we will.
Never sugarcoat how important itis to see you succeed.
See any of my clients succeed.
I don't care if it's family oreven it's a person that found me
on Google.
It doesn't matter.
It's like I know I will put inmy a hundred percent.
So when it comes to you choosingthe right practitioner, if
(35:16):
you're listening to this, justchoose a practitioner that
really, it is not just anexpert, but more importantly is
like somebody that actually youcan feel that they care.
That, that's really importantbecause I think a therapeutic
alliance, the relationshipbetween a client and a per a
practitioner to me is moreimportant than sometimes like
(35:36):
the expertise.
If they're their textbook theirtextbook ready and they have a
PhD, but they seem apathetic orthey seem off-putting.
I think you would agree, Lily,like that's not gonna speak
volume to you.
That's not gonna lead to youbeing compliant or to like
staying with the program.
Any case, not sure of yourthoughts on that, Lily, in terms
of your agreement or if you wantto add anything to that, but I
think those are some of thethemes that I got for, from this
(35:58):
conversation with you.
Yeah, that's I think that's allI got.
Perfect.
Okay.
Lily I greatly appreciate you.
I will continue to touch basewith you for hopefully forever
and for you to always be able tomessage me anytime you want.
But for the most part, yes, Ireally hope this definitely
inspires.
Somebody, to really compel themto make changes and to realize
(36:18):
that there is hope when it comesto relieving chronic knee pain
or any other pains that are outthere that seemingly feel
futile, seems lifelong.
So Lily, thank you so much foryour time.
I appreciate you.
Anytime.
Thanks for teaching me how tolive pain free.
Perfect.
All right.
All right.
Welcome in.
I am Dr.
Jason Won, a lifestyle physicaltherapist.
As you guys know, I help a lotof people worldwide and also in
the San Francisco Bay Arearelieve chronic pain, help them
get stronger, and also just putthem on the right trajectory for
better health, especially ifpain is not a limiting factor.
And today I have the blessingand privilege to get to
(00:22):
interview one of my clients.
Her name is Lily, and me andLily have worked with each other
for a few sessions, and it'sjust been a real joy, obviously
seeing her grow, seeing hertransformation, and then yes.
I was honored to, when she saidyes, I'd love to be interviewed
and to share my experience.
So Lily, yeah, just want tothank you for being here and how
are you doing today?
(00:43):
Thanks.
Happy to be here.
I am doing great today because Idon't have knee pain.
I'm glad to hear that.
I know that when we, even beforewe started and we were just like
consulting and talking about, Ithink we've had a few
conversations even before wewere talking to each other.
You've mentioned to me manytimes that you've had knee
(01:03):
issues.
We just brushed it off becausewhen we did meet each other, it
wasn't like something that's attop of mind during gatherings
and all that.
But just share with me a littlebit about like just.
Just that journey that you beenon.
So before you started workingtogether, paint the picture for
our audience of what daily lifekinda looked like with this type
and knee issue, how it startedas well.
Do you mind sharing that?
(01:24):
Yeah, absolutely.
So my knee pain, it's 10 yearsin the making.
I, first, I'm like, we're gonnago down memory lane here.
I first felt it in college.
I was having a lazy day.
My friends and I were just.
Marathon binging TV shows andeating pizza on the couch.
And my knee started hurting.
It was stiff wasn't great, but Iignored it and went to bed.
(01:48):
Next day it was gone, so didn'tgive a second thought to it.
And then fast forward tograduation, I got a nine to five
job and I sat at a desk all day,five days a week.
Like many.
Like most people do.
And by 3:00 PM each day, myknees started hurting and it was
(02:09):
awful.
I couldn't really walk on it.
And I would get to the gym andonce I got like a gym routine
going, I felt a little better.
But it kept progressing to thepoint that even if I worked out,
even if I was active, it, thepain still kept coming.
And eventually it got to a pointwhere.
(02:30):
I just felt really anxious aboutit all the time.
If my knee wasn't activelyhurting, I was waiting for it to
hurt.
And like that mental load wasjust, it was a lot.
It was just every day like, allright, when am I gonna be in
pain?
When am I gonna not be able towalk anymore?
So it was pretty rough.
I'd carry Advil with meeverywhere I go and.
(02:51):
I'd worry about things likesitting in a car on a road trip
or something, or sitting on the,like in a movie theater for a
couple of hours.
'cause that sitting positionjust aggravated my knee a lot.
Gotcha.
Yeah, I actually dealt with alot of similar things, which I
feel like I told you about, Ifeel like I was a good athlete
my entire life, but, a lot ofpeople, they get pain when
(03:13):
they're more active or like theymight tear a ligament.
And there are some wheresometimes it's not during the
times that you're active, it'swhen you're not act, it's when
you're not active.
So if you're sitting in a carfor a long period of time, or a
very common thing that we sayin, in physical therapy is the
theater sign where if your legsare bent at a 90 degree angle, a
lot of times, like you can't sitin a theater for a long period
(03:34):
of time.
So I dealt with it.
A lot of that myself.
I think that's why I feltactually very confident to work
with you because I was like, oh,this is stuff that like, sounds
very eerily similar to thingsthat I've faced.
And I always try to lead byexample in terms of saying that
I empathize, but also if there'ssomething that, that I've dealt
with myself, I'm more than athousand percent sure that I can
(03:55):
help you.
So what were out outside of justmain, but like the mental load.
Do you mind describing that alittle bit more?
What did you mean by mentalload?
Was it more.
Fear mongering?
Or was it just like I wasworried about the future?
Can you elaborate on that?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
It was, yeah, day to day Iwould, I'm like sitting at my
desk and I'm like, when's itgonna kick in?
(04:15):
Is it now is, should it take anAdvil now or should I wait till
later?
I was also like, it would reallyupset me like this would.
It would make me reallyemotional thinking about not
being able to run after likepets or kids stooping down to
pick up my niece and give her ahug or I don't know, I drop
something, I need something topick something off the floor and
(04:39):
I wouldn't be able to bend myknee.
And it just made me feel like,I'm 32.
This has been hurting me since Iwas about in my twenties.
And I'm just thinking can I livethe rest of my life like this?
Is it gonna get so much worse?
Like I was, yeah, I'm like 30going on like 80.
That's how I was feeling.
And I'm like, my youth is beingtaken away from me because I
(05:00):
can't do simple things likesquatting down running after
things and just.
Being active.
Things that I like doing.
I really like hiking or doingyoga and Pilates and even those
things like just doing like thewarrior pose.
It hurt my knee, yeah.
Yeah, the knee is just,probably, in my opinion, is the
(05:22):
most common ailment in the lowerbody for some physiologically
physiological purposes.
For anybody that's listening, Ithink the knee is most subjected
to injury or the stuff that youfeel, because the knee is just
this one joint between twoothers and so the knee is just
subjected to.
Whatever the hip or the anklewants to do.
So whether you are running wrongand like the foot's hitting the
(05:44):
pavement wrong, that affects theknee, or a lot of times you're
not, if you sit for a longperiod of time, which is what
you did.
And what a lot of people donowadays is that the hip
muscles, they either get weak orthey get stiff.
So that ends up affecting thearea down below.
Which again is the knee.
So that's why the knee is likeone in four people in the world.
And that's a pretty bigpercentage.
25% of people in the world willhave some sort of knee issue in
(06:07):
their lives.
A lot of times it does becomemore chronic.
If not solved in the right way.
So again, leads me into my nextquestion.
I know, Lily, it's been, you'vebeen having this for over a
decade and we can definitelydive into the transformation
that you had, but it wasprogressively getting worse
until we started doing stuff.
So what did you try, what weresome of the many avenues,
(06:29):
treatments, protocols, andthings that you tried?
Prior to working with me.
And I guess, what were some ofyour your expectations going
into those treatments?
Yeah, I've had a ton.
Let's see.
Before working out with you Iwas working out on my own.
Like I'd go to the gym.
I've always been pretty active.
I didn't know which exerciseswere helping me or hurting me.
(06:50):
I wasn't sure is walking theright thing to do or running, or
should I be doing squats?
Should I be lifting heavy?
Like what is good for me?
And because my knee hurt, I waslike, should I stop doing it or
should I keep going?
I wasn't really sure about anyof that.
What else should I do?
Oh, I had gone to other physicaltherapists.
(07:13):
They gave me exercises.
I didn't find'em very helpful.
It wasn't, and after a while Iwouldn't stay consistent with
them.
I had been told to get newshoes.
I did.
That didn't do much for me.
I've had two cortisone shots inmy knee.
Didn't help it.
It just numbed the pain for awhile.
One lasted me two weeks.
(07:33):
Pain came right back.
One helped for a couple ofmonths and yeah, it didn't.
Lessened the pain.
It just numbed it for a bit.
And then what else did I have?
Oh, I had a knee brace for thelongest time.
I walked around it with a kneebrace, so that was another thing
I had to carry with me on top ofthe Advil everywhere I went.
(07:54):
Put on a knee brace.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's almost it feels like you'reconstantly in a state of
protection, right?
Mentally, it's you whensomething hurts, we tend to want
to guard it.
We tend to protect it.
A common narrative that I thinkthat I always try to debunk is
if it hurts, don't do anything.
So this is commonly the.
The thing that your physicaltherapist would say, this is
(08:16):
commonly what your doctor wouldsay and many others.
So if an exercise hurts, juststop what you're doing.
And I think that always comes,in my opinion, that always comes
from a place of fear, right?
It's okay, no, pump the brakes.
Stop what you're doing, becauseclearly that's not the right
avenue to go.
So let's completely turn awayfrom that and do something else.
(08:36):
I find that's very.
Disempowering not just to you,but to others.
So like very commonly, if youwere squatting, that's very
common that if you're like, oh,if squatting hurts, just don't
do it.
Do something else, right?
Go for a walk.
But you fail to realize that youneed squatting and.
Literally everyday life.
So a lot of times it does scar,somebody leaves a permanent
(08:56):
imprint.
Oh, if squatting's bad for me, Ishould just not do it.
But okay, now you lose theability to sit on a couch.
You lose the ability to sit in atheater, sit onto the toilet,
and it hurts every time you siton the toilet.
It's just'cause you don't buildinto that.
So any case I digress in termsof saying there's a lot of
mental aspects and a lot ofthings that we say.
(09:18):
Or that a practitioner would saythat often leads to very
permanent deficits.
And it's not your fault, it'sjust that there's an
authoritative figure that said,don't do this, don't do that.
And then oftentimes we lead welive in a state of protection.
AKA you wear a brace at alltimes.
You carry the medication in yourpocket at all times.
So I'm very glad that obviouslyyou've unleashed those things.
(09:39):
You don't have to carry thosethings anymore.
That's a beautiful thing to see.
With that being said, like Iknow that I am a physical
therapist although I feel likeI'm a very good one, an
orthopedic specialist so mindyou sharing like between, I
dunno how many PTs you did, likehow many bouts of different
physical therapists have youseen?
Just one or a couple.
I.
Two, I saw two physicaltherapists.
(10:00):
One, I went just one time.
He gave me some exercises andtold me to do them.
The other one I scheduled likeseveral appointments.
I think I went once a month forabout six months.
Yeah.
And then I went to sportsmedicine, so I didn't, I'm not
sure if it was like theexercises or the consistency or
whatever it was.
(10:21):
Maybe all of it.
It just, it didn't really workfor me.
So maybe we can just delineatethat further, if you don't mind
me asking, because I thinkphysical therapy obviously has
this place That is why I chosethis profession and'cause I
freaking love it.
It gives me a lot of joy when Iget to help my clients not just
relieve pain, but like even justtransform their life and their
(10:42):
consistency and their habits.
So I don't like the poke bears,in terms of like physical
therapy because I think every.
Physical therapist, every healthpractitioner they're usually
doing things with the rightintention.
However, sometimes they're goingabout it wrong or they're going
about things not optimally,which that's why it left you in
frustration, so what do you mindme asking what are some of a few
(11:03):
things that was different aboutworking with me versus working
with some of the otherpractitioners that you saw?
I think something working withyou is you pushed like heavy
weights.
And I didn't, don't scare peopleby the way.
Did.
Yeah.
Not, it's nothing ridiculous.
You start with lighter weight,but we're doing weight training.
It's not like you have to startwith the heaviest weight ever
(11:25):
and you're gonna, it doesn'twork.
It's just like you start withlower weights or nothing at all,
and then you progress week byweek.
And you really push, every weekbe better.
Whereas I think my old physicaltherapist was.
It was mostly just like usinglike a very weak band.
Actually.
You saw the bands that I had.
You're like, what is this?
(11:45):
Why is this so like flimsy?
Yeah, it was like clamshellswalking with a band around my
eyes things like that.
But there was no weight trainingthere, and so it wasn't growing
my muscle.
I think probably wasn't growingmy muscle faster than my body
was losing it.
I know you, just for background,if it's okay to share it, but I
(12:06):
know you had some prettysignificant atrophy of the left
quad.
It was actually very apparent.
I didn't have to measure it.
It was just like, it was veryobvious that I.
Right side had a good amount ofgirth and it had like teardrops.
And then the left side literallyjust, it was like more tubular,
right?
It's just like much thinner innature.
And not just that, but like alsothe knee.
You lacked extension, right?
(12:27):
So you 30, 32 years of age, butyou already had a knee that.
Lacked significant range ofmotion.
You couldn't lock it out.
So those are just a lot of timesyou give somebody bands and you
just strengthen the hip, butyou're not addressing like the
strength and the resilience ofthe knee and pushing it.
Then a lot of times it staysexactly the same.
This is an honest question.
(12:48):
If it's okay, and you can bereally transparent on this
podcast, that's fine.
Did you have any, I knowconsidering your previous
experiences, did you have anyconcerns, doubts or uncertainty
when I was hey, like saying Hey,let's get the ball rolling.
Let's try to work with me.
I know you've known me for awhile, so kinda get the ball
rolling.
Was there any, like objectionsor uncertainties in your head
about doing things before westarted?
(13:08):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not gonna lie, I was prettyjaded by the time I got to you
because I've been living withthis for so long.
I've tried so many approaches tohealing my leg.
And I was like, really?
Like I don't think my body canjust heal itself on exercise
alone.
Like building up the muscle isgonna stop the pain.
They told me it's patellofemoralsyndrome.
I had, and because of that, itcaused inflammation and then I
(13:30):
had a cyst and that's, yeah, allthis stuff was going on in my
knee and I was no way.
Just building up the muscle.
Stop all that.
But it really did like buildingup the muscle.
Made it my joints like, aren'tpressing upon each other,
causing inflammation, and so thepain's gone away.
It's insane.
It's magic, it's voodoo.
I don't know what this is, butit's science.
(13:52):
That's what it's definitelyscience.
There's no magic hands here.
I think that it's a lot of timeswhat I always say is that like
I.
Back in the day when I was 2015,much I think cockier of a
therapist and I was like, ohshoot.
I have the hands of magic,right?
So a lot of my treatment wasvery manual based.
What can I do with my hands?
I can crack someone's back andthen magically they're off the
(14:12):
table.
Man, I feel so much better.
There is a place for manualtherapy.
I've definitely switched mypractice to past.
Six years in terms of justproviding knowledge, one of what
to do with your symptoms.
Number two, like empowering youthat you can do this on your
own.
It's just a matter of just likereally implementing it.
And then three, it's liketeaching you principles around
progressive overload andstrengthening this issues and
(14:34):
making sure that you're notseeing the same.
And if you are you know thisalready Lily, like I called you
out and I was like, you're doingexactly the same.
You're not progressing, you'renot really pushing to
contractile failure.
So we really demonstrated that.
Together, and I think that youobviously have expressed and
defined that resilience overtime which I'm very happy about.
So in terms of.
(14:55):
I guess we can go back to maybein an instance, I remember there
was like two, three weeks intous working together.
There was a moment where youwere like a little bit
teary-eyed because you were, Ithink you were sick, and then
you right you fell off for aweek and you're like, oh, that's
making good progress.
And then you fell off becauseyou just weren't going to the
gym.
And then you got, your mindsetkind of started wavering, right?
(15:16):
You're like.
It's really frustrating.
I know I'm only three weeks in,but this won't get better.
So do you remember some of theverbiage and some of the
conversation around that and doyou mind sharing that?
Yeah, I remember I got sickaround the holidays and yeah, I
didn't go to the gym for a bitand my legs started hurting
again and I was like, this isn'tworking out.
(15:37):
It's gonna be exactly the sameas before the pain.
It was just so awful.
And to feel like that muchdespair at such a young age,
it's really disheartening.
Yeah, you like, you're like,Hey, you just gotta get back on
there.
You built me some new routines.
Hey, you're not feeling up togoing to the gym.
And we all know if you're sick,don't spread it around.
(15:57):
So here's some things you can doat home.
Maybe you can't do your fullworkout, maybe you can't do.
You don't have access to all thestuff that you have at the gym,
but this is what you can do inthe meantime.
Don't completely fall off.
There's something you can stilldo to keep you on track.
We all take ownership of ourhealth, right?
So when we're sick I always tryto tell my clients, try to
maintain a bare minimumstandard.
(16:19):
You don't have to do your fullroutine.
You don't even have to do the.
The large amount of weight, youdon't always have to
consistently take things tofailure, but at the same time,
you gotta keep your body honest,right?
You gotta keep it on track.
So it's very easy for people tolose.
Endurance to lose strengthrelatively quickly.
And it's unfortunate becausewhatever hire being that made us
(16:42):
human is that like we have towork that much harder to get our
strength there and it becomeshard.
It's like an uphill battle whenyou're hip that hitting those
heavier weights.
But it's so easy to fall intocomplacency and just fall off
the wagon and lose a ton ofprogress.
Six months of progress.
You lose that in like less thana month, right?
So that's why, I think one thingthat I try to do that separates
(17:02):
my practice is like really keepmy clients accountable, really
have my voice heardconsistently, and to teach you
that this is something you dolifelong.
This is not physical therapywhere you get in, your symptoms
are relieved and then you canjust go back to your normal
lifestyle, right?
This does become a part of yourlifestyle.
(17:23):
And so if I'm.
I wouldn't be the best fit foranybody that says, I'm just
looking for a quick fix.
I'm always looking for peoplethat really want long-term
change.
So again, very excited that'sthe trajectory you're on because
I know that you willconsistently work out and I
think it's a beautiful thing.
So you highlighted.
Before the muscle loss.
(17:43):
And that there was some relianceon medication or like
anticipating it, taking itbeforehand or taking it after.
I don't know, were you givenanything else outside of
medication from your providerand I think there was like the
injection and everything yeah.
Yeah, new shoes, I actually,yeah, cortisone shots.
And then there's also.
(18:04):
Knee tape and electric nervestimulation.
They put two little things andthen, but I can't do that at
home.
That's, you go into the clinicand they can do it for you there
for 20 minutes, but after that,when am I supposed to do?
Did you, I know this is somepeople they just go through the
motions and they just go downthat route.
(18:24):
'cause they're misinformed.
They're just like, oh I need thetense unit because it, it shocks
the muscle and it relieves thepain.
Was there a time or was there adelay period where you're like,
at some point you just came to arealization that I need to
change my route of how I'm goingabout this, or, when did you
come to that realization?
I guess the first time I did ptI.
(18:44):
I only went once didn't go backand I was like, you know what?
That's probably on me.
I wasn't consistent.
I didn't keep up with it.
The second time, I was like, no,this is it.
I'm gonna fix it.
I made all these appointments,made sure I kept up with it.
And it's still didn't work aftersix months, after the cortisone
shot like I had.
The best doctor who he wasawesome did everything he could
(19:06):
for me.
And I'm like, it still didn'twork.
And I'm like, I can't live likethis.
Like it's too early to throw inthe towel and just be disabled,
not using one of the biggestmuscles in my body.
So yeah, I was like, I need totry everything.
I've tried the knee brace.
I've tried, I tried everything.
They threw at me.
So do you find with the, whenyou had the when you were having
(19:28):
a lot more debilitating kneeissues, was it harder for you to
just stay present to just bemore present with your husband
or with your family and do youfeel like your ma your mind was
constantly like drifting into,like worrying about the future
at all?
And I'm just gonna get yourperspective'cause I've worked
with other, a few thousandpeople over the past six years
since starting my business and.
(19:50):
A lot of people, as theirmindset shifts into different
places, they perseverate overwhat happened in the past.
They hate the past.
Sometimes they really dwell inthe future and then they can't
stay present.
So I'm just curious on your endabout your mindset.
I.
Oh, definitely.
I think the anxiety of it washonestly like such a huge part
of it because yeah, not only amI worrying about what's
(20:11):
presently gonna happen to me,but I'm worrying about yeah,
future.
Am I going to be able to, I.
Have kids and take care of themproperly.
Can I take'em to the park andrun around?
I want a dog.
And what if this dog like runstoo far and I can't chase after
it, yeah.
(20:31):
I can't enjoy an evening on thecouch just watching TV'cause my
leg gonna hurt.
I couldn't wear high heels whenI went out with friends, things
like that.
What else was there?
I don't know, just like even I'mcooking in the kitchen and
there's like a pot at the in thebottom cupboard and I'm like, I
have to squat down to go get it.
I don't wanna do this.
(20:52):
It hurts.
It just affected every part ofmy life.
So this has been a huge changefor me.
For sure.
I think I told you a little bitabout this, but tho those words
when you first said Iperseverated about the future,
and then you mentioned kids.
That was actually how I felt.
Your pain started when you werelike twenties.
I got into a really.
Bad car wreck when I was 20, andthen also my dad passed away
(21:14):
around the same time.
So that was a moment in my lifewhere when my dad passed away,
and then I had a lot of chronicneck issues because of the
mixture of that emotionalturmoil of losing a father, but
also my issues weren't goingaway.
And so my thoughts were the samething.
It was like, my neck issues areso bad I can't even sit in a car
for more than 10 minutes.
How do I even expect to havekids?
(21:37):
Because I can't carry them.
I can't look down for a longperiod of time.
I can't keep them.
I, I always dreamt of having mykids on my shoulders for, and
watch the parades at Disneylandkind of thing.
And I was like, dude, I can't doany of that.
And thankfully enough in thesame way that you've made your
transformation I discovered myown transformation of how
powerful it is to.
Be strong, right?
And strong is actuallyassociated with being pain free.
(21:59):
That doesn't match with a lot ofpeople.
Like they don't see thatconnection, but i'm, I think,
my, my son I keep my son on myneck for two hours.
And'cause he forgets that he haslegs.
So like I'm carrying him undermy arm for many hours in Taiwan
that I just went back to.
I carry him on my shoulders fortwo hours straight and I'm proud
of that.
I can have the capacity to dothose things versus I know a lot
(22:22):
of people, they accept.
Their way of life life riddledwith pain.
And definitely a big change.
May I ask like when, during thetimes that we were working
together, like how fast did youstart to notice those kind of
initial changes of likepositivity and relief and, what
do you feel like there wereeither specific moments or
exercises that you feltparticularly were like the most
(22:44):
impactful?
So I think we started workingtogether right before the
holidays and I was so excitedbecause I think I.
Like a couple weeks after westarted working together, I had
a few days where I didn't takeany medication.
And then it lasted a week and Iwas just like, I think it's been
like a month since I've takenany Advil.
(23:06):
Which is amazing.
Actually, I saw an episode ofGrey's Anatomy where a girl took
too much Advil, so I think shelike died from it.
I don't know, it's a TV show,but I was like, I, that can't be
me.
I don't want that to happen tome.
And then when I got sick, yeah,it didn't work out for a couple
of weeks and.
Advil every day came right backand I was like, oh man, here we
(23:28):
are again.
But since then, since you'veupdated my workouts and I know
don't slip that far.
Don't go that long withoutworking out or just do
something.
I don't think I've taken Advillike.
I don't know, for a couplemonths now.
It's amazing.
It's freeing.
Did I answer your question?
Wait, was there another project?
Yeah, definitely.
(23:48):
And know were there either onespecific'cause I love to teach
principles, right?
You know that I talk a lotclearly that's why I have a
podcast.
But I also, I love to teach alot when I am doing my sessions
with people.
I also like to think that Iprovide, the right exercises
that really.
Inch needle forward a lot couldyou share maybe either whether
(24:10):
it's exercises or principle thatyou're gonna always live by that
you really felt like made a hugedifference, especially for your
knee issues?
Yeah.
So the first one I just said, itwas just like even if I can't do
my workout, I don't have time todo my full workout.
You don't have to be perfect.
Do something, like every stepyou take gets you closer to
where you wanna be.
(24:30):
So if you take no steps, you'regonna stay where you're at or
slide backwards.
Another thing is to keep pushingmyself.
I was trying to be perfect.
Do perfect.
12 reps before I move on to thenext weight.
And you're like, no, you're notprogressing fast enough.
Move on to the next weight evenif you don't think you can do
it.
And yeah, it got me pushingmyself way harder than I used to
(24:53):
and I saw progress much fasterlike that.
Yeah, I was at the gym thismorning and I was.
I was doing hamstring curls andI was stoked because I was like,
I remember when I did thelightest weight on this, and it
was a struggle, and now I'm likedoing way more weights than I
thought I ever could.
I did it with ease and I'm like,it's time to move up and next.
(25:13):
Wait.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And do you recall, I think whenyou were doing we were testing
leg extensions as well, right?
Yeah.
And that was, that's the onethat, that you were, I think I
almost cried.
You were scared to do it.
You actually almost, you almostcried when you were like, you're
gonna make me do this right now.
And I was like, we gotta testfor it.
We gotta see how you do because.
If you never overcome yourfears, then you're never gonna
(25:34):
do it.
Yeah.
And I was like, this is gonna beone of the best exercise for you
at some point.
I don't even know your numbers,but I know you were pretty
stoked when we opened up likelateral squats, cosac squats,
leg extensions, all becamerelatively pain-free.
Which opened up avenues.
So you're like, oh, there'snothing in the gym that I can't
do, right?
I remember that first morningdoing the cosac squat.
I couldn't do it like, and Itexted you, I think it was like
(25:56):
seven o'clock in the morning.
I was like.
I can't do this.
What do I do?
And you're like, hold ontosomething.
Support yourself.
And I did.
And now I have maxed out on theweights that they have at the
gym, so that's awesome.
That's crazy.
So I'm like really happy.
I was like, that was my mostfeared.
Exercise, second most feared,and now I, I love doing it.
(26:18):
Yeah.
Let's, I guess let's talk aboutfear really quick because that
is pain will impact you in manyways.
Whether it's like disabling andyou can't get back to the
activity that you want to do orwhether it's causing a lot of
mindset issues and it's eitherfeeling a sense of helplessness
or fear.
Do you feel like.
The things that you felt beforeus working together was the
(26:38):
primary thing that reallyimpacted you the most from a
mental or physical standpoint?
Was it fear or was it likesomething else?
I guess I.
Yeah.
Fears, it's like pain isobviously like the physical,
it's awful.
It's there.
I have to fix it.
My, my knee would get superstiff and I couldn't move and
couldn't enjoy life.
But giving myself like themental freedom to stop worrying
(27:02):
about it and thinking about itlike all hours of the day, it's
been really great.
Yeah, it's honestly liberating.
Yeah.
I think you wrote a review andI'm very privileged to have
those reviews.
Almost like my tattoo.
It's it's always gonna beforever imprinted onto my Google
page, which is, it's really goodbecause like I can always go
back, it's like going back intoa memory book, right?
(27:23):
So I'll look back at it twoyears from now and be like, oh
shoot.
I remember when I worked withLily, I remember the experience
and the great friendship that wedeveloped, during our time
working together.
One thing, I just wanna break upthat review and you mentioned.
Quote unquote, the program gaveyou tools to live without paint.
That I was a, one of the onesthat taught you about your
(27:45):
muscles and how to reawakenthem.
Can you elaborate on what thelearning process was like in
terms of what you did the pastfew months and how ultimately
empowered you to take control ofyour knee health?
I.
My knee problem was diagnosed aspatellofemoral.
Didn't know what that meant.
Didn't know how to reverse it.
It was, they were just like,here, do these exercises.
And I'm fairly active.
(28:06):
I love doing yoga, liftingweights, doing Pilates, and I.
Yeah, I could see my legshaking.
I could see, like when I'm doingdown dog and I'm looking at my
leg, one side is engaged and onewas just there.
It was just existing.
It was not engaging at all.
Or like my leg was shaking and Iwas like, I don't.
I don't know is what I'm doinghurting it or is it helping it?
(28:28):
I don't know.
So I just like you said earlier,back off go and protect mode and
you taught me like, Hey, that,that shaking the muscle's being
fatigued, keep going at it, keeppushing it.
And when you get it to bestronger, it's not gonna shake
like that anymore.
So yeah, he taught me like howmy muscles work, how they all
like they're yeah, how they worktogether.
(28:49):
Yeah, he taught me to pushmyself.
That if I work out withmachines, I can't hurt myself.
Although you can't, machineswill take the front of the heat.
Yep, yep.
I, I don't need to be afraid ofadding on weights because I
won't hurt myself.
It's just gonna help.
Yeah, it's really cool to seehow far I've come because you've
taught me to push myself and,yeah.
(29:09):
Yeah, that's the one of thebiggest things is that's why I
like to document things.
That's why I have an app.
That's why I like to look at thenumbers and be like, let the
numbers speak for itself, right?
Because if your numbers aren'tgoing up, that's not a sign of
growth and on your end.
But also I know on my end thatlike you, you gotta be.
Willing to take the next steps,right?
Be willing to add some incrementof difficulty in the form of
(29:32):
speed or increase your reps by acouple.
A lot of times people will getinto the mistake that they want
to quote unquote maintain musclemass throughout their life,
right?
A lot.
You hear that all the time,right?
Lily?
I wanna maintain my muscle mass.
'cause I'm thinking about it.
I'm 30, usually after the age of30 you're losing muscle mass.
Very commonly people make thatmistake of, I wanna maintain
(29:52):
muscle mass, but they're notactually progressing their
exercise.
They're doing the same.
They're like that I thought thatwas supposed to do.
You maintain, you do the samesets, the same reps.
As long as you do that, you'remaintaining, but actually you're
declining.
Because you, you want tomaintain by actually progressing
the weights.
And so when you're 50, 60 yearsof age, you'll have a nice,
beefy looking left quad, andthen you have more you,
(30:13):
obviously you're gonna losesome, but you're gonna have much
more to lose.
That, in my opinion, is thedefinition of maintenance.
Because you're trying toovershoot your consistency,
overshoot your, the amount ofstrength and muscle mass that
you can build as your, as youage.
And then you have more despairthat defines quality of life
there.
Because if you just flatlinefrom here, Lily, your quality of
life would not be that good inyour seventies and eighties.
(30:34):
You would just lose asignificant amount.
Especially Asian women that havebone density issues, and I'm
sure you have family membersthat have that as well.
Definitely anybody that'slistening definitely have that
growth mindset.
Don't think that you can just goto the gym and just go through
the motions and just do the samestuff.
You have to have a mindset likeLily, where.
You, we, we caught you.
(30:55):
Like just doing the same thingwith certain exercises and
you're like, oh, that's got, I'mlittle fearful.
I wanna be perfect in it, butsometimes you just have to be
like, Hey, it's okay to beimperfect, but it's actually
more important to progress,right?
You have to challenge yourselfwithin each and every exercise
in each and every set.
So just a couple more questionshere.
One thing, I like to inspirepeople, and this is always just
(31:16):
based on your own words becauseI think whoever I get to
interview your words are goingto inspire someone.
It may not inspire one personbecause they, I guess they
resonate with another message,but I think hopefully whatever
you decide to say in your, inindividual way will hopefully
speak volumes to somebody,right?
So somebody that may havechronic knee issues, maybe they
don't have chronic knee issues,but they just resonate with who
(31:37):
you are as a person.
They'll, for someone.
I'm listening who's beenstruggling with either chronic
knee pain or any persistentpain.
That they feel like can't besolved.
Perhaps they feel like theytried and failed a number of
things or failed, like themedical system failed them.
What message of hope would youwant to share based on your
experience?
On the days I get like a littlediscouraged I, or try to remind
(32:00):
myself, just keep going at it.
You don't have to be perfect.
Just keep chipping away at it.
It took me 10 years to lose allthis muscle.
It's not gonna come back rightaway.
It's not a, can't expect amiracle.
So keep pushing harder weights,consistency, and yeah, every
step I take is a step closer towhere I wanna be.
(32:21):
So just, yeah.
Keep going at it.
I love that.
Looking back at your journey,what do you feel was like the
most valuable aspect of usworking together and doing this
physical therapy program, which,maybe is a little unique with
mixture of nutrition and likereally pushing the boundaries on
like your knowledge and pushing,pushing your limits.
(32:41):
Which I don't know even youcoming me into this, but what do
you feel is the most valuable?
Is it like the accountabilitypiece?
Just maintaining motivation,having a program set for you.
The custom program was honestlyso valuable, just tailoring to
my schedule what I have accessto my needs, and then ha the
accountability is a closesecond.
(33:04):
So have it.
It's.
It's what I could handle.
And then you changed it up too,so it didn't get too like
stagnant.
So those are really helpful.
The app was really great, likebeing able to track my progress
and look back on how far I'vecome.
It's really encouraging.
So all of those were reallygreat, and then having access to
(33:25):
you at any time too was reallygreat.
So thanks for answering all myrandom questions.
When I was like, how do I dothis?
I can't tell, but yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, all of it was really greatand good.
Helped me get me to where I amso good.
So if anybody were to say, wouldyou work with Dr.
Jay, what would you say to themthen?
Oh, a thousand percent.
Yes.
It was best thing ever.
(33:47):
And I'm not just saying it, justlike seriously giving myself
pain-free life.
No anxiety about this.
I would've spent so much moneyon this.
When, I'm sorry I'm rambling,but I'm like, yeah.
When I'm in pain, I was like, Iwill pay a million dollars to
get rid of this pain.
And I didn't have to spend that.
So very happy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I don't know if you had anyother final words, but I feel
like a lot of the words that youmentioned just speak volume.
(34:10):
Just to recap on things that,for some themes that came out of
your words it's more like.
Don't fear pain, right?
It's sometimes you have to pushinto pain in order to get rid of
it.
A lot of times you have torealize that sometimes a lot of
the passive stuff, whether it'sinjections or sometimes easy
exercises, it's just not gonnacut it.
You really have to put in a goodamount of effort in order to get
(34:32):
to where you want to be, tobuild up that strength again.
We know that accountabilitycomes a long way.
A lot of times with chronicpain, your mind will falter,
right?
You Lily also as well.
Yeah.
Went through theserollercoasters of emotions.
The highs, the lows, the will Iget better?
Is this even working?
Like I said, when you have,hopefully a good accountability
coach, like I think like myselfyou can do amazing things.
(34:56):
And lastly yeah, it's just finda practitioners that's
empathetic.
I think that's actually the mostimportant thing we will.
Never sugarcoat how important itis to see you succeed.
See any of my clients succeed.
I don't care if it's family oreven it's a person that found me
on Google.
It doesn't matter.
It's like I know I will put inmy a hundred percent.
So when it comes to you choosingthe right practitioner, if
(35:16):
you're listening to this, justchoose a practitioner that
really, it is not just anexpert, but more importantly is
like somebody that actually youcan feel that they care.
That, that's really importantbecause I think a therapeutic
alliance, the relationshipbetween a client and a per a
practitioner to me is moreimportant than sometimes like
(35:36):
the expertise.
If they're their textbook theirtextbook ready and they have a
PhD, but they seem apathetic orthey seem off-putting.
I think you would agree, Lily,like that's not gonna speak
volume to you.
That's not gonna lead to youbeing compliant or to like
staying with the program.
Any case, not sure of yourthoughts on that, Lily, in terms
of your agreement or if you wantto add anything to that, but I
think those are some of thethemes that I got for, from this
(35:58):
conversation with you.
Yeah, that's I think that's allI got.
Perfect.
Okay.
Lily I greatly appreciate you.
I will continue to touch basewith you for hopefully forever
and for you to always be able tomessage me anytime you want.
But for the most part, yes, Ireally hope this definitely
inspires.
Somebody, to really compel themto make changes and to realize
(36:18):
that there is hope when it comesto relieving chronic knee pain
or any other pains that are outthere that seemingly feel
futile, seems lifelong.
So Lily, thank you so much foryour time.
I appreciate you.
Anytime.
Thanks for teaching me how tolive pain free.
Perfect.
All right.
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