March 18, 2022 • 36 mins
This is our second bonus episode on BOOKS! This time we talked about what makes us re-read a book, put a book down, or keep reading. And more!
As always, links to Bookshop are affiliate links.
Mikhail Bulgakov, The Master and Margarita
NK Jemisin, Broken Earth Trilogy
Dante, Divine Comedy
Betty Smith, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn
Dr, Honorée Fannone Jeffers, The Love Songs of W.E.B. DuBois
Shirley Jackson, We Have Always Lived in The Castle
Stephen King, Eyes of the Dragon
James Joyce, Ulysses
James joyce, Finnegan’s Wake
Lauren Groff, Matrix
Toni Cade Bambara, These Bones Are Not my Child
G.R.R. Martin, Game of Thrones series
Robert Jones, Jr., The Prophets
Tayari Jones, Silver Sparrow
Colson Whitehead, The Nickel Boys
Stats on who is in juvenile detention centers (these are from 2017, and look at the trend from 1997-2017)
Colson Whitehead, The Underground Railroad
Percival Everett, The Trees
Ta-Nehisi Coates, The Water Dancer
Kiese Laymon, Heavy
The third rail (politics)
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:00):
Welcome to a bonus episode of Wondermine. I'm
Larissa Parson. I'm a joy coachand movement teacher, a writer,
a mom of twins, a bit of ahippie and an owner of many
books I never actually read, andapparently I can't pronounce my
own name this morning. Hi,Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:17):
Hi, Larissa. I'm Elizabeth M.
Johnson. I'm a parent, apartner, a rape survivor and
writer. And I talk aboutrelationships and decision
making and trauma and how all ofthose intersect. And I'm someone
who has multiple books going atonce.
Larissa Parson (00:33):
And if you're new here, hello. We're the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:53):
If you would like to support our show,
thank you. Thank you. You can dothat by visiting
patreon.com/wondermine. Thereare three tiers of support with
which to help us out and in theinterest of equity and community
all offer the exact same perkswhich include things like bonus
(01:13):
episodes, exclusive updates, andother behind the scenes content.
Larissa Parson (01:19):
And today, we are talking about books. This is
part two of our conversation onbooks. In our first bonus
episode, we talked about what weread as kids, what we're reading
now and who's on our shitlist.
If you missed that, go back andlisten. Today we're going to
talk about rereading, what makesus put down a book, why do we
keep going with a book, andmaybe a little bit more?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:44):
Let's go.
Okay, wait, Larissa, before westart, how would you feel about
a hypothetical right nowsomething you were not expecting
us to talk about?
Larissa Parson (01:54):
So you know, I'm always up for something like
that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:58):
I thought you might be. So just picture
it. You're on a deserted island.
You don't see anyone around you.
It's really hot but notunpleasant. You feel kind of
good in your body in that space.
Just a few 100 yards away, yousee something in the distance.
It's a small structure. Youstart walking towards it and
(02:22):
wait a second. It's an adorablelittle cabana. You walk closer
and inside you see a stash offood and drinks. Plenty to
sustain you for as long as youwould like. And right on the
small return table next to agorgeous comfy lounge chair, are
(02:43):
three of yourcannot-live-without books, The
Ride or Die books. What wouldthose books be?
Larissa Parson (02:55):
First of all, this question is too hard.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:59):
And that's everything, folks. Thanks for
joining us! (laughter)
Larissa Parson (03:02):
(laughter). I'm like, I would like to go to that
island. Since it is cold andrainy here, I would be really
happy to be there. Okay,seriously, I do find it really
hard to think of only threebooks that I would have to
reread for the entire time I'mstuck on this island. Because I
am notorious for not rereadingbooks! I always want something
(03:24):
fresh. If I had to choose, Ithink I would pick maybe
something in Greek that I had towork at. And like, there's no
dictionary, so I'd have toreally wrack my brain for these
little fragments of informationfrom 20 years ago. So maybe
Pindar or some of Plato's work,something like that. Or maybe
(03:48):
I'd go with an old favorite likeThe Master and Margarita, which
is one of my favorites from whenI was in my 20s. And I still
love it. I've...that one I havereread at least once. So maybe
it'd be that. And then maybe Iwould pick. Gosh, this is really
hard.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:06):
It is hard. And I forgot you are not a
re-reader and I am. So this is ahard question for me. But it is
way harder for you since you donot reread.
Larissa Parson (04:16):
Now I'm like, oh, I should become a re-reader
so I can answer this question inthe future. I'm thinking this is
kind of cheating a little bit.
Like, I have two of my veryfavorite authors on this list in
my head. But actually, I thinkbecause they write these longer
series, that would be reallyhard to just pick one. So I'm
going to cheat here a littlebit. And I'm going to pick this
three books in one edition ofthe Broken Earth trilogy by NK
(04:42):
Jemisin. Which, Oh, yeah, Ibought it for my mom last year,
I think for Christmas, and shehad to put it on her dining
table to read it because it wasas thick as a dictionary.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:57):
Oh my gosh.
Larissa Parson (05:00):
But this is a great use for that book, because
then I could reread that story.
And I love the whole trilogy.
And I feel like it would be onethat really rewards you
rereading it because I now knowthe whole plot. But I could pick
up some of the subtler detailsand hints that she's dropping
throughout the first couplebooks in that trilogy. So that
(05:20):
would be fun. What about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:23):
Fabulous, those are great. I was thinking,
'okay, how can I also bring inmultiple books?' Who's got a
collection that I want to bringwith it? And I really waffled on
that. Actually, that's funnythat you said the Greek because
I was like, maybe I should dothe Divine Comedy. I'm like,
(05:45):
"Oh,...it's been many, manyyears. Since you have read this
in Italian. You will just beangry with yourself and feel
like an idiot." So that one isnot there. (laughter) The Divine
Comedy stays at home. I'm goingto bring A Tree Grows in
Brooklyn by Betty Smith. It isone of my favorite books that I
(06:08):
read as a child and it's onethat reminds me of my mom. So
it's very tender for me. I'mgoing to bring --everyone sick
of hearing me talk about this--butI'm going to bring The Love
Songs of WEB DuBois by Dr.
Honoree Fanonne Jeffers becauseI only read it once. And it was
recently and it is a megamammoth book. So I know, reading
it another time--which is one ofthe joys for me in rereading is
(06:31):
-- is I will notice differentthings that I didn't notice the
first go round. So I will bringthat with me. And I was
thinking, Can I squeeze in someShirley Jackson there? LIke a
book of her essays or classicslike We've Always Lived in The
Castle. But I think I'm going toskip Shirley Jackson. I'm going
(06:51):
to go with Eyes of the Dragon,which is my favorite Stephen
King book. It's not one of hismore well known ones. And it's
not his earliest. It's early /mid career, and it is an
original fairy tale. And there'sa lot of magic in there and
strong female characters also,that I love. So I think those
(07:11):
three would sustain me.
Larissa Parson (07:14):
Nice. That sounds like a nice variety of
books. Yeah, yes. Mm hmm. Ireally like that. I feel like
that rereading question isreally hard for me. Because I do
fall in love with characters.
And I do fall in love withplaces when I read. And I can
see wanting to go back to themperiodically, which I think
(07:36):
maybe is, you know, like part ofwhy I love a good fantasy
series, because they just keepgoing. And I get to spend more
time with those characters. AndI get to watch them develop and
grow and change and all of thatgood stuff. Anyway, I mean,
that's a lot about what we mightreread. Is there any other,
like, Do you have any othercriteria for rereading something
(07:57):
other than that, like, maybeit's complex and worth, like
digging into again, to get moreout of it?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:05):
That's a great question. One of the
reasons I reread is the escapepiece that we've talked about. A
need to breathe a little bitmore easily, and not have to
think too much about what'sgoing on around me.
Larissa Parson (08:21):
Uh huh.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:22):
And have it be kind of mindless. So I can
go back and reread things forthose exact purposes because it
is just a brief escape intosomething that's familiar. And
not sure if 'beloved' is theright word, but certainly
cherished. So that's another bitfor me.
Larissa Parson (08:39):
That makes a lot of sense to me. And I
think...you reread; I go pick upa light romance.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:46):
I think that's exactly right.
Larissa Parson (08:48):
Exactly the same reasons. Like yes, I want
something that's not going tomake me work too hard. And it's
going to have a nice payoff forthe time I spend reading, an
emotional payoff, usually, orjust like this...You know, it's
very soothing when, you know,there's a happy ending.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:00):
Yes. Yes.
Larissa Parson (09:04):
So that's a lot about rereading. Part of the
struggle for me sometimes, andit's not really like struggle is
such a ridiculous word for this.
It's not a struggle.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:16):
Well, I'm with you. That seems to be the
word that comes to mind though,right?
Larissa Parson (09:21):
It's a huge struggle. So part of the
struggle for me as a reader isthat so many of my reading
habits got pretty solidlyingrained when I was in college
and grad school and a little bitwith teaching where I did have
to reread, but it was always foranalysis. And like, a lot of the
stuff that I had to read wasmaybe stuff I didn't like stuff
(09:44):
that was kind of boring 19thcentury German commentaries on
Plato in German.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:52):
Do not recommend (laughter).
Larissa Parson (09:58):
Yeah, there's a lot of slogging. And outside of
class, I did read a lot offiction. And there I was like,
Okay, give me anything that'snot what I'm studying.
Basically, magical realism.
Cool. Avant Garde fiction. Cool.
I, what's the reading list ofthings in my head of things? I
(10:18):
think I should read Ulysses, oh,I got a summer vacation where
I'm taking a really intensesummer course? Well, bring it
on! That's the kind of readerI've been for much of my life,
which means that I didn't feellike I could put books down. I
did put down Finnegan's Wake, Idid not I got two pages in I was
(10:39):
like, uh uh. Nope! (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:44):
That's interesting.
Larissa Parson (10:45):
That was a big nope, did not need to try that.
But, you know, so there was alot of like, not being able to
put down because I had to readthings that I used, whether I
liked them or not. And there wasa lot of feeling like I needed
to read a thing, because thatwould help me have access to a
cultural reference, like readingUlysses. There's a big payoff at
(11:07):
the end of that book, once youslog all the way through it. And
so it's super hard for me tobreak that habit. And I've been
working on it. And this is wherethe struggle comes in. Because I
will stick with a book that Idon't really love, like, a lot
longer than, say, you wouldElizabeth, and you're so good at
(11:27):
this. So good at it. And myhusband to like, lots of people
in my life will put down a bookway before I will, like I'll
stick with something a lotlonger. And this is something I
really admire about you, is whenwe have our conversations when
we're out walking, and you'relike, Yeah, I started that, and
I just had to put it down. Howdo you do it?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:52):
I wonder, too, if there's... Well, wait
thank you for that. I want toacknowledge the compliment that
I've given. So thank you. And Iwonder if there's not a greater
level of discernment on yourend, perhaps, because you have a
very clear sense as to what youwant to pick up. Right? So every
time you're reaching for theromance or the fantasy, it's the
(12:15):
genre that you want, you know,that you're going to stick to,
that you know. It's almost likea easy go for you.
Larissa Parson (12:22):
Pretty much.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:23):
Because you know I don't have that that
skill, or that piece nailed downlike that for me. And maybe I
wonder if that's a little bit ofa difference? I'm not answering
your question, but I'm justmaking more of an observation.
Is there something with thatlevel of like parsing, because
you know these genres that aregoing to work a little bit
(12:43):
better for you than others. AndI don't have that.
Larissa Parson (12:45):
yeah, and within my within the genres I really
like I read a little summary sothat I know what I'm getting
into. And if it's like a sadwhite ladies on the beach in
Connecticut, Wait, is there abeach? oh, whatever (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:00):
Passing on that one too! (laughter). There
are some but not many beaches.
Larissa Parson (13:08):
is on the beach in Maine, and a handsome
stranger walks up, I'm not goingto read that book.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:13):
Neither am I. (laughter)
Larissa Parson (13:14):
If there are white people, they need to be in
like castles. (laughter) Okay,like moving on, I (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:25):
I do think life is too short to read books
that are not thrilling me andthat I'm not in love with. I
will say though, this is one ofthese ideas that I've been
thinking about a lot. And muchmore than I would have thought
is that I love when people giveme permission to do something.
And I was looking at Julia FGreen's Instagram at one point,
(13:48):
her post is "I'm readingthis..but I'm just gonna put
that down." And my comment was"Oh my gosh, I'm in Matrix, and
I'm struggling, but everyoneloves it!" And then like, "I
think you've given me permissionto put this down." And so I did.
So someone giving me permissionto put it down, whether it's in
a caption or language that I seeis really helpful for me. It
(14:11):
also helps me --to be perfectlyhonest--when I don't own the
book.
Larissa Parson (14:16):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:17):
I don't buy a ton of books and I use my
library very, very heavily. Iwill often get the book from the
library first. If I love it,then I will buy it so I can mark
it up. Or buy it if I know inadvance I'm going to love it and
I want to mark generally like mynonfiction. I buy very little
(14:38):
fiction. So it's also logistics,I don't have a ton of space.
It's financial, I can't buyeverything. So not owning the
book actually helps me put downa book because I haven't put
money into it or made aninvestment into the space. So
that helps me but I do like togive myself plenty of space
around reading including spaceto put the book down.
Larissa Parson (15:02):
Mm hmm. Yeah. To go back just a second, I want to
clarify. It's not just whitewhite people, I'll read books
about, like, I'm still on this,like, Wait a minute. Anyway,
there's like a whole complicatedlayer of that to talk about some
other time, I'm gonna go back toyour space thing. So switching
to almost only checking outbooks from the library onto my
(15:25):
Kindle, especially fiction,especially popular fiction, I'm
still like, there's an eightweek wait, wait on the matrix.
So I'm not going to be readingit anytime soon. That's made
this physical space problem somuch better for me to, I used to
be like, I remember, in gradschool, I would just like, buy
books at the used bookstore, andthen go sell back the ones that
(15:49):
were just okay, and not amazing,so that I could buy more books
from these bookstores. And then,like, it was this ridiculous
cycle. And I would check out alot of books at the library,
too. But I'm curious, Elizabeth,can you say a little bit more
about space to put the bookdown?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:08):
Yeah, I don't have a Kindle. So I don't
do any reading like that. Butthe way that you have been
talking about this with me, andhow long we've been talking
about books has made me wonderif I should try one. Because
would this help my space issueand also helped my like, now I
"own the thing" challenge.
So the idea of space to put downis related to permission, right?
(16:30):
So some of its the emotionalspace involved with giving
myself permission to put a bookdown. Some of its physical. I am
actually temporarily puttingthis book aside. I'm in a rough
part. Or maybe it's just reallyheavy. I'm just gonna put it
(16:55):
down for an indefinite pause.
And that's kind of how I'mfeeling about which I'd
mentioned in an earlier episodeof last season, These Bones Are
Not My Child by Toni CadeBambara. I'm really having a
hard time with that. I wouldlike to finish it. It is a
masterpiece. Everyone who knowsBambara has read this book, and
(17:16):
I have not finished it. My usualpractice with fiction is giving
myself 20 to 30 pages, andthat'd be enough to know. You
know, depending on the length ofthe book, giving myself a
certain percentage, my eighthgrade English teacher, Mr. Tom
(17:37):
West taught me that idea.
I don't put down a lot ofnonfiction. I have given myself
permission--if it's not working,or if it's different than what I
thought it would be-- to skim.
To go through and find the bitthat is actually useful for me.
(17:58):
Because again, I'm often readingfor research. I'm reading to
learn more about a subject I'minterested in. So I will go and
give myself permission to skimor scan.
Larissa Parson (18:12):
Right? That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So
for me, like putting down a bookwhen I do. It's like, it has to
be I like it has to be kind ofawful. I'll read mediocre, but
(18:33):
good enough books for a lotlonger than I should. And also,
it doesn't. But that doesn'tmean that it's not a good book
for someone else to read. Ithink that one of the great
things about books is thatthere's a book for everyone. But
when I do when I do find myselfgoing, I just cannot, I try to
(18:55):
stick with it till we get toabout that 30% mark. I will say
that NK Jemisin, the BrokenEarth trilogy that I mentioned
earlier, that was one of thosebooks, the first book in there,
I had to get about halfwaythrough before it clicked. And
then I fell in love. And it wasone of those things where I'd
heard enough people say, no, no,no, you have to read it. And
(19:17):
then ever since I've beenrecommending it to people I've
been saying, You've got to getall the way through the first
book, and then you're not gonnastop reading them, because it's
just the narrative is is complexand kind of multi voiced. And so
you don't know what's going onfor a really long time. Once you
get there, it's amazing. So youknow, sometimes it depends.
(19:38):
Where did I hear from? Who did Ihear about this book from? Who
recommended it? Where did I getthis? Did I get it off the list
of like books recommended by oneof my favorite authors? I'll
usually stick with it a littlebit longer. And what else makes
me drop it? So if the charactersaren't compelling, or if it's
too much in terms of everything,violence, trauma, trauma as
(20:00):
drama, too dense if it's, like,too literary, honestly,
sometimes when I am not reallyfeeling well rested when I am
not feeling like I have my allmy intellectual cylinders firing
fully, a dense piece of literaryfiction is a no, I can't do it,
(20:21):
I just like can't. And then Oh,this one more thing that I
thought about is, if it's a bookthat's supposed to be sexy, but
it's not turning me on forwhatever reason I put that right
down. Like, I've had friendsrecommend books, either pieces
of romance or erotica. Andthey're like, Oh, this is so
(20:41):
hot, you're gonna love it. And Iread it. And I'm like, Yeah,
that's not really my thing. Andthat's fine. You know, and
that's a great time to put abook down. And that's, you know,
like, that's definitely one ofmy criteria. Like, if it's, if
it's a particular genre, it'snot doing the genre in a way
that I enjoy it, then I'm notgonna read it. And then I guess,
finally, we've talked about thisbefore, but if there's no joy in
(21:05):
it, and that can be very broad.
It can be overcoming adversity,etc. But if there's no joy in
it, I'll probably put it down.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:19):
This is reminding me of like, what you
just said, "there's a book foreveryone. " Right? So if that
piece of erotica is not quitedoing it, you know, even though
it was from someone who youappreciate the recommendation,
then we put it down.
(21:39):
What's the opposite for you, Iwonder? What keeps you going
with a book? We've talked about--or I've heard you talk about
before--escape, being in abetter world and a world with
more diversity, equity, lesshate. All of these really
beautiful things that we feelreally strongly about here on
Wondermine. So those are somethemes I'd imagine kind of keep
(22:02):
you in. But what else keeps yousucked into a book? What makes
the book kind of irresistible toyou?
Larissa Parson (22:08):
Um, well, clearly, if it's supposed to be
sexy, it should be sexy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (22:14):
There we go.
Larissa Parson (22:14):
That goes without saying. Witty dialogue,
just enough tension in the plot,like sexual, plotwise, whatever,
just enough going on. Like,sometimes I get really, I like,
I love an interior kind ofthinky book, but not that much,
actually, sometimes. Fantasticcharacters I went to hang out
(22:37):
with. Game of Thrones kept mesucked in. Talk about white
people in castles. Right?
(crosstalk) I will read them! Iwill read them! Are there
swords? Cool. I'm in, right. Butit was one of those series that
made my husband wonder, like,where's Larissa? Reading. The
prose itself is not that snappy.
(23:00):
It's not like the best prose,I'm gonna say, I'm fine being on
the record, saying that thecharacters are tremendous. The
characters in that book areamazing. And those books are
amazing. And that kept me suckedin, even though Westeros, and
the rest of that world, was notat all a better place.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:20):
Yes to the tension, I want it. I like that.
And to totally feel that. And Iwant to experience a bit of the
emotional stress or pull like Iam in there, too. That's really
an important piece for me. Iwant to feel like I'm really
right there with that person.
Larissa Parson (23:35):
Exactly. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:38):
Beauty for me in fiction. I feel like this
overlaps with what you saidabout joy, right? So like, it
can be really broadly defined orsubtle or not really like overt.
You know, it could be this sortof like tormented beauty of the
two enslaved men who were loversin The Prophets. There's a lot
of physical violence and hatredin the book, but the beauty is
(23:59):
really just exquisite andluminous. And the trauma doesn't
feel exploitive, which is whatI've talked about before, like
not a bonkers plot twist. Thebeauty of a flawed character who
we can see is flawed. We'veactually you and I talked about
this a couple of nights ago, andnot the character per se, but
(24:21):
like David Sedaris, and how heuses itself in his essays.
Larissa Parson (24:25):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:26):
So someone being really nakedly vulnerable.
That's important. Or a gorgeoussetting. All those are really,
really attractive to me and keepme keep me going in a book in
fiction.
Larissa Parson (24:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I'm like, thinking of abeautifully flawed character and
nonfiction. I mean, I thinkmaybe memoir has a space for
that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:45):
Yes, thank you. That exactly.
Larissa Parson (24:48):
I mean, that's what we were talking about with
David Sedaris. So memoir has agreat place for the beauty of a
flawed character. Or, yeah. So,I love beauty in a book as well.
And I love that we can define itin so many different ways. I
love prose that feels luminousis the word today, luminous, but
not overwhelming.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:10):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (25:11):
That's not like you're not picking apart the
prose for what's happening.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:14):
Yep.
Larissa Parson (25:14):
But it is beautiful.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:16):
Yes, yes.
more elegant than flowery.
Larissa Parson (25:22):
I, I like that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:24):
That's my very elementary description. You
know, with fiction, I feel likeI want to be grabbed a little
bit roughly by the sleeve andnot in a violent way. I really
want to qualify this - I don'tmean grabbed "violently" --just
that I want to feel reallystrongly about what's going on
with those characters. And Iwant that sooner rather than
(25:46):
later. Otherwise, I need to getout. Yeah, there's just not much
of a sliver of moon of patience,or my attention, left when it
comes to not really feelingreally strongly about the thing
that I'm reading. I want to feelstrongly. Whether that's tension
or the deep love or thisconflict, or whatever.
I also want to read something Ihaven't before. So like a five
(26:10):
year old who can start fireswith her mind. A serial killer
at the World's Fair. I used toread a ton of historical
fiction. Tyree Jones's openingline of Silver Sparrow, "My
father, James Witherspoon is abigamist." This just begged me
to continue and I was like,"Ooh, I gotta keep going here".
Colson Whitehead's PulitzerPrize winning book, The Nickel
(26:31):
Boys, about boys in a juveniledetention center in Florida.
It's based on a real place. It'san absolutely brutal read. And
it's sad and horrifying in allthe ways that you'd imagine. But
his prose is so perfect andtight. And that's... so these
things were haven't..something,a story that has not been told.
Larissa Parson (26:55):
Yeah, for me.
Yeah. Like, that's yeah. Yeah, Itotally understand that. And I
would say that a lot of thebooks that I really love are
also stories that haven't beentold, but there are types of
stories that have been told, youknow, what I mean? Like,
they're, they're different.
They're different. Yeah. But Ithink I think that this is kind
(27:18):
of one of those places where ourdifferences as individual
readers, the two of us comes tolight. Because sometimes I will
find that no matter howbeautiful the prose is, I can't
always read something brutal. Idon't always have the, the
space, the emotional space forit really. Despite the fact that
I hold plenty of privilege. Isometimes just cannot go to like
(27:43):
a boys det- juvenile detentioncenter, I cannot do that. And I
love Colson Whitehead. There, I,I have read other books by
Colson Whitehead that I haveloved. But this is one where I
looked at the looked at thesubject matter and was like, Oh,
that's a hard pass for me rightnow. Maybe I'll have emotional
(28:04):
bandwidth for it. You know,like, when I have grown kids,
maybe, then I'll be able to dothat, but not right now.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:16):
I totally get that. I totally, totally get
that. And- I'm not you, but if Iwere you - I don't know if I'd
read it either. There's a piecethat it's just occurring to me
now is I have a very hard timereading books where the child is
(28:38):
ill or the child is sick, or momis dying. I can't do it. I
actually feel a little bit likeemotional even thinking about
it, because it's very, verypainful for me. And it's very
hard, especially if the kids arearound my daughter's age. And
I'm like, "No, I don't carewhat's going on." So, not to
(29:03):
take away from what you'resaying.
Larissa Parson (29:04):
Oh no, yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:09):
The Nickel Boys is really hard. I read it
because I felt like I could readit. And that I should read it.
For many reasons. Like I've justlistened to hundreds of survivor
stories over the years. And weknow more all the time #MeToo.
But there's also this bigmassive piece about patriarchy
and toxic masculinity and how westill don't understand or have
(29:33):
any kind of appreciation orregard for how sexual abuse
impacts people as adults, ifthey were abused as children.
Larissa Parson (29:41):
Absolutely.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:42):
We need more of these male survivor
stories. That are millions ofmale survivors and we don'thave
the stories. And The Nickel Boysis really an important read for
that reason. I feel like I couldlisten to this. And I can hold
space in a different sort of waythan I had before.
(30:04):
I also felt like I should readthis, because I'm a pretty
privileged white person. And Ididn't grow up knowing any kids
who went to a juvenile detentioncenter. Like that was just not
even on my radar. But we knowthat disproportionately, Black
and Brown children are morelikely to be sent to a detention
center. They're more likely tobe sent to detention in high
(30:25):
school or in grade school.
Larissa Parson (30:25):
Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:26):
All of these things. So I feel like
there's a piece of me that readthis book, because nice white
parents like me need to readbooks like this. We need to read
The Prophets. We need to readHeavy. We need to read The
Underground Railroad. We need toread The Trees. We need to read
all of these books, WaterDancer, all these books.
Larissa Parson (30:43):
For sure.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:49):
Fom my own observation, I think there's
also like these, a constanthaving to reckon with the ideas
of systemic racism andintergenerational trauma, and
how deep and exhausting that canbe for BIPOC people. Also - and
then I will stop talking aboutthis, because I don't want to
keep elevating my voice here-
Larissa Parson (31:09):
You're fine.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:09):
But it's also super important for white
people to read about Black joy.
You know, and we've talked, likeI've talked about, like,
everyman. And you and I bothlove this . . .
Larissa Parson (31:18):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:18):
Its just so good, and so brilliant. And
so there's those kind of booksthat we need to read to so I'm
not saying "read all the Blacktrauma stories" . I'm not saying
that as a white person here. ButI'm also sort of saying it is
important for us to read thosepieces, too. Both the trauma
because we can and the Black joytoo.
Larissa Parson (31:36):
Yeah, yeah. I think that was really well put
Elizabeth, because that's what Iwas going exactly what I would
say is that it's really, it'sreally important for me to read
a lot of black joy, brown joy,indigenous joy. Yes, queer joy
of all kinds and flavors. Ithat's what I meant earlier. And
(31:57):
like, if there's no joy, I'mprobably not going to get all
the way through it. And, andthat doesn't mean that like, I
won't pick up a hardemotionally, like brutal book,
it just means I'll do it like,once a year. And I think when
you were speaking about kind oflike, what you can't read, I
(32:17):
think that when we talk aboutputting down a book, it's fair,
as a reader to say there aresome third rail topics, where
you just can't go there. And youcan come back to the maybe in 10
years, yeah, five years, orafter some more therapy or
whatever, you know, like thereare, but I think it's okay to
(32:37):
have third rail topics in ourlives, as long as we are aware
that those things exist in theworld.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:43):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (32:43):
And like, and I think this like, pulls us back
to our big overarching theme andwonder mind, maybe a little bit,
where we're not asking you todive in, all the way all the
time, take a little test, see ifthat works for you. Try a little
bit, take a break, try a littlebit more, take a break, read
something hard, read somethingeasy, like not that we're giving
(33:06):
advice on what to read. But weare totally giving advice on
what to read all the time, andand how to read. And I think
that knowing what you can't reador what you can't watch is so
important. And knowing that,like there may be other ways of
looking at some of those storiesthat maybe are less immersive,
if that's how you need totitrate your way in. So anyway,
(33:31):
where was I gonna go with all ofthat? I think that that's
basically all we had to sayabout picking up, putting down,
all of that. Do you haveanything else you wanted to add
Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:45):
No, just to lift up that last bit a
little more. So in case peoplezoned out for a quick second
--which I do sometimes when I'mlistening to podcasts (laughter)
- that it's awesome to have that-and I'm not familiar with that
term? --Is it third rail?
Larissa Parson (34:05):
Oh, so okay here, yeah. ere Yeah, a third
rail...This is like...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:08):
I mean, I can guess what you mean, but...
Larissa Parson (34:09):
Hi! City person!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:10):
Okay, thank you.
Larissa Parson (34:15):
So for those of you who did not grow up riding
subways all the time there is onmost subway systems at least on
DC Metro and definitely on BARTin San Francisco and probably
also in Yeah, definitely in NewYork, cuz I've heard stories
about it. There is this thirdelectrified rail and you don't
want to sit on that rail becauseyou'll get electrocuted.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:36):
Okay, good call. Yeah.
Larissa Parson (34:38):
And those are that's what third rail means.
Don't go there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:43):
Yes. You will not get electrocuted if you
have third rail topics that areones you're not going to go to.
And it's still awesome to knowthat you can give yourself
permission to be "those are offlimits for right now." It's this
beautiful like yes/and right?
Yes, this is something I can'ttake right now in this moment
and I may want to go back to itlater on. Thank you for bringing
(35:03):
that up. I love that. Thank you.
On that note..
Larissa Parson (35:09):
thank you for asking me to clarify it because
right, my experience is notuniversal, friends!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:18):
And neither is mine. (laughter)
Thank you so much for listeningto us. And if you would like to
support our work, this is areminder that our patrons find
out first when the new seasondrops and get awesome bonus
content. You can find us atpatreon.com/wondermine.
Larissa Parson (35:38):
and we are so grateful every time you share
Wondermine with friends. Writingus a review will help others
find their wow and their how tolive a life rooted in curiosity,
community and liberationand...maybe just a little bit of
awareness that sometimes noteverybody lives the way you do.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:59):
And in the interim, follow us @
wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thanks everyone. Be well.
Larissa Parson (36:07):
Thank you
Welcome to a bonus episode of Wondermine. I'm
Larissa Parson. I'm a joy coachand movement teacher, a writer,
a mom of twins, a bit of ahippie and an owner of many
books I never actually read, andapparently I can't pronounce my
own name this morning. Hi,Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:17):
Hi, Larissa. I'm Elizabeth M.
Johnson. I'm a parent, apartner, a rape survivor and
writer. And I talk aboutrelationships and decision
making and trauma and how all ofthose intersect. And I'm someone
who has multiple books going atonce.
Larissa Parson (00:33):
And if you're new here, hello. We're the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:53):
If you would like to support our show,
thank you. Thank you. You can dothat by visiting
patreon.com/wondermine. Thereare three tiers of support with
which to help us out and in theinterest of equity and community
all offer the exact same perkswhich include things like bonus
(01:13):
episodes, exclusive updates, andother behind the scenes content.
Larissa Parson (01:19):
And today, we are talking about books. This is
part two of our conversation onbooks. In our first bonus
episode, we talked about what weread as kids, what we're reading
now and who's on our shitlist.
If you missed that, go back andlisten. Today we're going to
talk about rereading, what makesus put down a book, why do we
keep going with a book, andmaybe a little bit more?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:44):
Let's go.
Okay, wait, Larissa, before westart, how would you feel about
a hypothetical right nowsomething you were not expecting
us to talk about?
Larissa Parson (01:54):
So you know, I'm always up for something like
that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:58):
I thought you might be. So just picture
it. You're on a deserted island.
You don't see anyone around you.
It's really hot but notunpleasant. You feel kind of
good in your body in that space.
Just a few 100 yards away, yousee something in the distance.
It's a small structure. Youstart walking towards it and
(02:22):
wait a second. It's an adorablelittle cabana. You walk closer
and inside you see a stash offood and drinks. Plenty to
sustain you for as long as youwould like. And right on the
small return table next to agorgeous comfy lounge chair, are
(02:43):
three of yourcannot-live-without books, The
Ride or Die books. What wouldthose books be?
Larissa Parson (02:55):
First of all, this question is too hard.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:59):
And that's everything, folks. Thanks for
joining us! (laughter)
Larissa Parson (03:02):
(laughter). I'm like, I would like to go to that
island. Since it is cold andrainy here, I would be really
happy to be there. Okay,seriously, I do find it really
hard to think of only threebooks that I would have to
reread for the entire time I'mstuck on this island. Because I
am notorious for not rereadingbooks! I always want something
(03:24):
fresh. If I had to choose, Ithink I would pick maybe
something in Greek that I had towork at. And like, there's no
dictionary, so I'd have toreally wrack my brain for these
little fragments of informationfrom 20 years ago. So maybe
Pindar or some of Plato's work,something like that. Or maybe
(03:48):
I'd go with an old favorite likeThe Master and Margarita, which
is one of my favorites from whenI was in my 20s. And I still
love it. I've...that one I havereread at least once. So maybe
it'd be that. And then maybe Iwould pick. Gosh, this is really
hard.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:06):
It is hard. And I forgot you are not a
re-reader and I am. So this is ahard question for me. But it is
way harder for you since you donot reread.
Larissa Parson (04:16):
Now I'm like, oh, I should become a re-reader
so I can answer this question inthe future. I'm thinking this is
kind of cheating a little bit.
Like, I have two of my veryfavorite authors on this list in
my head. But actually, I thinkbecause they write these longer
series, that would be reallyhard to just pick one. So I'm
going to cheat here a littlebit. And I'm going to pick this
three books in one edition ofthe Broken Earth trilogy by NK
(04:42):
Jemisin. Which, Oh, yeah, Ibought it for my mom last year,
I think for Christmas, and shehad to put it on her dining
table to read it because it wasas thick as a dictionary.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:57):
Oh my gosh.
Larissa Parson (05:00):
But this is a great use for that book, because
then I could reread that story.
And I love the whole trilogy.
And I feel like it would be onethat really rewards you
rereading it because I now knowthe whole plot. But I could pick
up some of the subtler detailsand hints that she's dropping
throughout the first couplebooks in that trilogy. So that
(05:20):
would be fun. What about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:23):
Fabulous, those are great. I was thinking,
'okay, how can I also bring inmultiple books?' Who's got a
collection that I want to bringwith it? And I really waffled on
that. Actually, that's funnythat you said the Greek because
I was like, maybe I should dothe Divine Comedy. I'm like,
(05:45):
"Oh,...it's been many, manyyears. Since you have read this
in Italian. You will just beangry with yourself and feel
like an idiot." So that one isnot there. (laughter) The Divine
Comedy stays at home. I'm goingto bring A Tree Grows in
Brooklyn by Betty Smith. It isone of my favorite books that I
(06:08):
read as a child and it's onethat reminds me of my mom. So
it's very tender for me. I'mgoing to bring --everyone sick
of hearing me talk about this--butI'm going to bring The Love
Songs of WEB DuBois by Dr.
Honoree Fanonne Jeffers becauseI only read it once. And it was
recently and it is a megamammoth book. So I know, reading
it another time--which is one ofthe joys for me in rereading is
(06:31):
-- is I will notice differentthings that I didn't notice the
first go round. So I will bringthat with me. And I was
thinking, Can I squeeze in someShirley Jackson there? LIke a
book of her essays or classicslike We've Always Lived in The
Castle. But I think I'm going toskip Shirley Jackson. I'm going
(06:51):
to go with Eyes of the Dragon,which is my favorite Stephen
King book. It's not one of hismore well known ones. And it's
not his earliest. It's early /mid career, and it is an
original fairy tale. And there'sa lot of magic in there and
strong female characters also,that I love. So I think those
(07:11):
three would sustain me.
Larissa Parson (07:14):
Nice. That sounds like a nice variety of
books. Yeah, yes. Mm hmm. Ireally like that. I feel like
that rereading question isreally hard for me. Because I do
fall in love with characters.
And I do fall in love withplaces when I read. And I can
see wanting to go back to themperiodically, which I think
(07:36):
maybe is, you know, like part ofwhy I love a good fantasy
series, because they just keepgoing. And I get to spend more
time with those characters. AndI get to watch them develop and
grow and change and all of thatgood stuff. Anyway, I mean,
that's a lot about what we mightreread. Is there any other,
like, Do you have any othercriteria for rereading something
(07:57):
other than that, like, maybeit's complex and worth, like
digging into again, to get moreout of it?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:05):
That's a great question. One of the
reasons I reread is the escapepiece that we've talked about. A
need to breathe a little bitmore easily, and not have to
think too much about what'sgoing on around me.
Larissa Parson (08:21):
Uh huh.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:22):
And have it be kind of mindless. So I can
go back and reread things forthose exact purposes because it
is just a brief escape intosomething that's familiar. And
not sure if 'beloved' is theright word, but certainly
cherished. So that's another bitfor me.
Larissa Parson (08:39):
That makes a lot of sense to me. And I
think...you reread; I go pick upa light romance.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:46):
I think that's exactly right.
Larissa Parson (08:48):
Exactly the same reasons. Like yes, I want
something that's not going tomake me work too hard. And it's
going to have a nice payoff forthe time I spend reading, an
emotional payoff, usually, orjust like this...You know, it's
very soothing when, you know,there's a happy ending.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:00):
Yes. Yes.
Larissa Parson (09:04):
So that's a lot about rereading. Part of the
struggle for me sometimes, andit's not really like struggle is
such a ridiculous word for this.
It's not a struggle.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:16):
Well, I'm with you. That seems to be the
word that comes to mind though,right?
Larissa Parson (09:21):
It's a huge struggle. So part of the
struggle for me as a reader isthat so many of my reading
habits got pretty solidlyingrained when I was in college
and grad school and a little bitwith teaching where I did have
to reread, but it was always foranalysis. And like, a lot of the
stuff that I had to read wasmaybe stuff I didn't like stuff
(09:44):
that was kind of boring 19thcentury German commentaries on
Plato in German.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:52):
Do not recommend (laughter).
Larissa Parson (09:58):
Yeah, there's a lot of slogging. And outside of
class, I did read a lot offiction. And there I was like,
Okay, give me anything that'snot what I'm studying.
Basically, magical realism.
Cool. Avant Garde fiction. Cool.
I, what's the reading list ofthings in my head of things? I
(10:18):
think I should read Ulysses, oh,I got a summer vacation where
I'm taking a really intensesummer course? Well, bring it
on! That's the kind of readerI've been for much of my life,
which means that I didn't feellike I could put books down. I
did put down Finnegan's Wake, Idid not I got two pages in I was
(10:39):
like, uh uh. Nope! (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:44):
That's interesting.
Larissa Parson (10:45):
That was a big nope, did not need to try that.
But, you know, so there was alot of like, not being able to
put down because I had to readthings that I used, whether I
liked them or not. And there wasa lot of feeling like I needed
to read a thing, because thatwould help me have access to a
cultural reference, like readingUlysses. There's a big payoff at
(11:07):
the end of that book, once youslog all the way through it. And
so it's super hard for me tobreak that habit. And I've been
working on it. And this is wherethe struggle comes in. Because I
will stick with a book that Idon't really love, like, a lot
longer than, say, you wouldElizabeth, and you're so good at
(11:27):
this. So good at it. And myhusband to like, lots of people
in my life will put down a bookway before I will, like I'll
stick with something a lotlonger. And this is something I
really admire about you, is whenwe have our conversations when
we're out walking, and you'relike, Yeah, I started that, and
I just had to put it down. Howdo you do it?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:52):
I wonder, too, if there's... Well, wait
thank you for that. I want toacknowledge the compliment that
I've given. So thank you. And Iwonder if there's not a greater
level of discernment on yourend, perhaps, because you have a
very clear sense as to what youwant to pick up. Right? So every
time you're reaching for theromance or the fantasy, it's the
(12:15):
genre that you want, you know,that you're going to stick to,
that you know. It's almost likea easy go for you.
Larissa Parson (12:22):
Pretty much.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:23):
Because you know I don't have that that
skill, or that piece nailed downlike that for me. And maybe I
wonder if that's a little bit ofa difference? I'm not answering
your question, but I'm justmaking more of an observation.
Is there something with thatlevel of like parsing, because
you know these genres that aregoing to work a little bit
(12:43):
better for you than others. AndI don't have that.
Larissa Parson (12:45):
yeah, and within my within the genres I really
like I read a little summary sothat I know what I'm getting
into. And if it's like a sadwhite ladies on the beach in
Connecticut, Wait, is there abeach? oh, whatever (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:00):
Passing on that one too! (laughter). There
are some but not many beaches.
Larissa Parson (13:08):
is on the beach in Maine, and a handsome
stranger walks up, I'm not goingto read that book.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:13):
Neither am I. (laughter)
Larissa Parson (13:14):
If there are white people, they need to be in
like castles. (laughter) Okay,like moving on, I (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:25):
I do think life is too short to read books
that are not thrilling me andthat I'm not in love with. I
will say though, this is one ofthese ideas that I've been
thinking about a lot. And muchmore than I would have thought
is that I love when people giveme permission to do something.
And I was looking at Julia FGreen's Instagram at one point,
(13:48):
her post is "I'm readingthis..but I'm just gonna put
that down." And my comment was"Oh my gosh, I'm in Matrix, and
I'm struggling, but everyoneloves it!" And then like, "I
think you've given me permissionto put this down." And so I did.
So someone giving me permissionto put it down, whether it's in
a caption or language that I seeis really helpful for me. It
(14:11):
also helps me --to be perfectlyhonest--when I don't own the
book.
Larissa Parson (14:16):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:17):
I don't buy a ton of books and I use my
library very, very heavily. Iwill often get the book from the
library first. If I love it,then I will buy it so I can mark
it up. Or buy it if I know inadvance I'm going to love it and
I want to mark generally like mynonfiction. I buy very little
(14:38):
fiction. So it's also logistics,I don't have a ton of space.
It's financial, I can't buyeverything. So not owning the
book actually helps me put downa book because I haven't put
money into it or made aninvestment into the space. So
that helps me but I do like togive myself plenty of space
around reading including spaceto put the book down.
Larissa Parson (15:02):
Mm hmm. Yeah. To go back just a second, I want to
clarify. It's not just whitewhite people, I'll read books
about, like, I'm still on this,like, Wait a minute. Anyway,
there's like a whole complicatedlayer of that to talk about some
other time, I'm gonna go back toyour space thing. So switching
to almost only checking outbooks from the library onto my
(15:25):
Kindle, especially fiction,especially popular fiction, I'm
still like, there's an eightweek wait, wait on the matrix.
So I'm not going to be readingit anytime soon. That's made
this physical space problem somuch better for me to, I used to
be like, I remember, in gradschool, I would just like, buy
books at the used bookstore, andthen go sell back the ones that
(15:49):
were just okay, and not amazing,so that I could buy more books
from these bookstores. And then,like, it was this ridiculous
cycle. And I would check out alot of books at the library,
too. But I'm curious, Elizabeth,can you say a little bit more
about space to put the bookdown?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:08):
Yeah, I don't have a Kindle. So I don't
do any reading like that. Butthe way that you have been
talking about this with me, andhow long we've been talking
about books has made me wonderif I should try one. Because
would this help my space issueand also helped my like, now I
"own the thing" challenge.
So the idea of space to put downis related to permission, right?
(16:30):
So some of its the emotionalspace involved with giving
myself permission to put a bookdown. Some of its physical. I am
actually temporarily puttingthis book aside. I'm in a rough
part. Or maybe it's just reallyheavy. I'm just gonna put it
(16:55):
down for an indefinite pause.
And that's kind of how I'mfeeling about which I'd
mentioned in an earlier episodeof last season, These Bones Are
Not My Child by Toni CadeBambara. I'm really having a
hard time with that. I wouldlike to finish it. It is a
masterpiece. Everyone who knowsBambara has read this book, and
(17:16):
I have not finished it. My usualpractice with fiction is giving
myself 20 to 30 pages, andthat'd be enough to know. You
know, depending on the length ofthe book, giving myself a
certain percentage, my eighthgrade English teacher, Mr. Tom
(17:37):
West taught me that idea.
I don't put down a lot ofnonfiction. I have given myself
permission--if it's not working,or if it's different than what I
thought it would be-- to skim.
To go through and find the bitthat is actually useful for me.
(17:58):
Because again, I'm often readingfor research. I'm reading to
learn more about a subject I'minterested in. So I will go and
give myself permission to skimor scan.
Larissa Parson (18:12):
Right? That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. So
for me, like putting down a bookwhen I do. It's like, it has to
be I like it has to be kind ofawful. I'll read mediocre, but
(18:33):
good enough books for a lotlonger than I should. And also,
it doesn't. But that doesn'tmean that it's not a good book
for someone else to read. Ithink that one of the great
things about books is thatthere's a book for everyone. But
when I do when I do find myselfgoing, I just cannot, I try to
(18:55):
stick with it till we get toabout that 30% mark. I will say
that NK Jemisin, the BrokenEarth trilogy that I mentioned
earlier, that was one of thosebooks, the first book in there,
I had to get about halfwaythrough before it clicked. And
then I fell in love. And it wasone of those things where I'd
heard enough people say, no, no,no, you have to read it. And
(19:17):
then ever since I've beenrecommending it to people I've
been saying, You've got to getall the way through the first
book, and then you're not gonnastop reading them, because it's
just the narrative is is complexand kind of multi voiced. And so
you don't know what's going onfor a really long time. Once you
get there, it's amazing. So youknow, sometimes it depends.
(19:38):
Where did I hear from? Who did Ihear about this book from? Who
recommended it? Where did I getthis? Did I get it off the list
of like books recommended by oneof my favorite authors? I'll
usually stick with it a littlebit longer. And what else makes
me drop it? So if the charactersaren't compelling, or if it's
too much in terms of everything,violence, trauma, trauma as
(20:00):
drama, too dense if it's, like,too literary, honestly,
sometimes when I am not reallyfeeling well rested when I am
not feeling like I have my allmy intellectual cylinders firing
fully, a dense piece of literaryfiction is a no, I can't do it,
(20:21):
I just like can't. And then Oh,this one more thing that I
thought about is, if it's a bookthat's supposed to be sexy, but
it's not turning me on forwhatever reason I put that right
down. Like, I've had friendsrecommend books, either pieces
of romance or erotica. Andthey're like, Oh, this is so
(20:41):
hot, you're gonna love it. And Iread it. And I'm like, Yeah,
that's not really my thing. Andthat's fine. You know, and
that's a great time to put abook down. And that's, you know,
like, that's definitely one ofmy criteria. Like, if it's, if
it's a particular genre, it'snot doing the genre in a way
that I enjoy it, then I'm notgonna read it. And then I guess,
finally, we've talked about thisbefore, but if there's no joy in
(21:05):
it, and that can be very broad.
It can be overcoming adversity,etc. But if there's no joy in
it, I'll probably put it down.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:19):
This is reminding me of like, what you
just said, "there's a book foreveryone. " Right? So if that
piece of erotica is not quitedoing it, you know, even though
it was from someone who youappreciate the recommendation,
then we put it down.
(21:39):
What's the opposite for you, Iwonder? What keeps you going
with a book? We've talked about--or I've heard you talk about
before--escape, being in abetter world and a world with
more diversity, equity, lesshate. All of these really
beautiful things that we feelreally strongly about here on
Wondermine. So those are somethemes I'd imagine kind of keep
(22:02):
you in. But what else keeps yousucked into a book? What makes
the book kind of irresistible toyou?
Larissa Parson (22:08):
Um, well, clearly, if it's supposed to be
sexy, it should be sexy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (22:14):
There we go.
Larissa Parson (22:14):
That goes without saying. Witty dialogue,
just enough tension in the plot,like sexual, plotwise, whatever,
just enough going on. Like,sometimes I get really, I like,
I love an interior kind ofthinky book, but not that much,
actually, sometimes. Fantasticcharacters I went to hang out
(22:37):
with. Game of Thrones kept mesucked in. Talk about white
people in castles. Right?
(crosstalk) I will read them! Iwill read them! Are there
swords? Cool. I'm in, right. Butit was one of those series that
made my husband wonder, like,where's Larissa? Reading. The
prose itself is not that snappy.
(23:00):
It's not like the best prose,I'm gonna say, I'm fine being on
the record, saying that thecharacters are tremendous. The
characters in that book areamazing. And those books are
amazing. And that kept me suckedin, even though Westeros, and
the rest of that world, was notat all a better place.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:20):
Yes to the tension, I want it. I like that.
And to totally feel that. And Iwant to experience a bit of the
emotional stress or pull like Iam in there, too. That's really
an important piece for me. Iwant to feel like I'm really
right there with that person.
Larissa Parson (23:35):
Exactly. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:38):
Beauty for me in fiction. I feel like this
overlaps with what you saidabout joy, right? So like, it
can be really broadly defined orsubtle or not really like overt.
You know, it could be this sortof like tormented beauty of the
two enslaved men who were loversin The Prophets. There's a lot
of physical violence and hatredin the book, but the beauty is
(23:59):
really just exquisite andluminous. And the trauma doesn't
feel exploitive, which is whatI've talked about before, like
not a bonkers plot twist. Thebeauty of a flawed character who
we can see is flawed. We'veactually you and I talked about
this a couple of nights ago, andnot the character per se, but
(24:21):
like David Sedaris, and how heuses itself in his essays.
Larissa Parson (24:25):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:26):
So someone being really nakedly vulnerable.
That's important. Or a gorgeoussetting. All those are really,
really attractive to me and keepme keep me going in a book in
fiction.
Larissa Parson (24:38):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. I'm like, thinking of abeautifully flawed character and
nonfiction. I mean, I thinkmaybe memoir has a space for
that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:45):
Yes, thank you. That exactly.
Larissa Parson (24:48):
I mean, that's what we were talking about with
David Sedaris. So memoir has agreat place for the beauty of a
flawed character. Or, yeah. So,I love beauty in a book as well.
And I love that we can define itin so many different ways. I
love prose that feels luminousis the word today, luminous, but
not overwhelming.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:10):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (25:11):
That's not like you're not picking apart the
prose for what's happening.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:14):
Yep.
Larissa Parson (25:14):
But it is beautiful.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:16):
Yes, yes.
more elegant than flowery.
Larissa Parson (25:22):
I, I like that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:24):
That's my very elementary description. You
know, with fiction, I feel likeI want to be grabbed a little
bit roughly by the sleeve andnot in a violent way. I really
want to qualify this - I don'tmean grabbed "violently" --just
that I want to feel reallystrongly about what's going on
with those characters. And Iwant that sooner rather than
(25:46):
later. Otherwise, I need to getout. Yeah, there's just not much
of a sliver of moon of patience,or my attention, left when it
comes to not really feelingreally strongly about the thing
that I'm reading. I want to feelstrongly. Whether that's tension
or the deep love or thisconflict, or whatever.
I also want to read something Ihaven't before. So like a five
(26:10):
year old who can start fireswith her mind. A serial killer
at the World's Fair. I used toread a ton of historical
fiction. Tyree Jones's openingline of Silver Sparrow, "My
father, James Witherspoon is abigamist." This just begged me
to continue and I was like,"Ooh, I gotta keep going here".
Colson Whitehead's PulitzerPrize winning book, The Nickel
(26:31):
Boys, about boys in a juveniledetention center in Florida.
It's based on a real place. It'san absolutely brutal read. And
it's sad and horrifying in allthe ways that you'd imagine. But
his prose is so perfect andtight. And that's... so these
things were haven't..something,a story that has not been told.
Larissa Parson (26:55):
Yeah, for me.
Yeah. Like, that's yeah. Yeah, Itotally understand that. And I
would say that a lot of thebooks that I really love are
also stories that haven't beentold, but there are types of
stories that have been told, youknow, what I mean? Like,
they're, they're different.
They're different. Yeah. But Ithink I think that this is kind
(27:18):
of one of those places where ourdifferences as individual
readers, the two of us comes tolight. Because sometimes I will
find that no matter howbeautiful the prose is, I can't
always read something brutal. Idon't always have the, the
space, the emotional space forit really. Despite the fact that
I hold plenty of privilege. Isometimes just cannot go to like
(27:43):
a boys det- juvenile detentioncenter, I cannot do that. And I
love Colson Whitehead. There, I,I have read other books by
Colson Whitehead that I haveloved. But this is one where I
looked at the looked at thesubject matter and was like, Oh,
that's a hard pass for me rightnow. Maybe I'll have emotional
(28:04):
bandwidth for it. You know,like, when I have grown kids,
maybe, then I'll be able to dothat, but not right now.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:16):
I totally get that. I totally, totally get
that. And- I'm not you, but if Iwere you - I don't know if I'd
read it either. There's a piecethat it's just occurring to me
now is I have a very hard timereading books where the child is
(28:38):
ill or the child is sick, or momis dying. I can't do it. I
actually feel a little bit likeemotional even thinking about
it, because it's very, verypainful for me. And it's very
hard, especially if the kids arearound my daughter's age. And
I'm like, "No, I don't carewhat's going on." So, not to
(29:03):
take away from what you'resaying.
Larissa Parson (29:04):
Oh no, yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:09):
The Nickel Boys is really hard. I read it
because I felt like I could readit. And that I should read it.
For many reasons. Like I've justlistened to hundreds of survivor
stories over the years. And weknow more all the time #MeToo.
But there's also this bigmassive piece about patriarchy
and toxic masculinity and how westill don't understand or have
(29:33):
any kind of appreciation orregard for how sexual abuse
impacts people as adults, ifthey were abused as children.
Larissa Parson (29:41):
Absolutely.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:42):
We need more of these male survivor
stories. That are millions ofmale survivors and we don'thave
the stories. And The Nickel Boysis really an important read for
that reason. I feel like I couldlisten to this. And I can hold
space in a different sort of waythan I had before.
(30:04):
I also felt like I should readthis, because I'm a pretty
privileged white person. And Ididn't grow up knowing any kids
who went to a juvenile detentioncenter. Like that was just not
even on my radar. But we knowthat disproportionately, Black
and Brown children are morelikely to be sent to a detention
center. They're more likely tobe sent to detention in high
(30:25):
school or in grade school.
Larissa Parson (30:25):
Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:26):
All of these things. So I feel like
there's a piece of me that readthis book, because nice white
parents like me need to readbooks like this. We need to read
The Prophets. We need to readHeavy. We need to read The
Underground Railroad. We need toread The Trees. We need to read
all of these books, WaterDancer, all these books.
Larissa Parson (30:43):
For sure.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:49):
Fom my own observation, I think there's
also like these, a constanthaving to reckon with the ideas
of systemic racism andintergenerational trauma, and
how deep and exhausting that canbe for BIPOC people. Also - and
then I will stop talking aboutthis, because I don't want to
keep elevating my voice here-
Larissa Parson (31:09):
You're fine.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:09):
But it's also super important for white
people to read about Black joy.
You know, and we've talked, likeI've talked about, like,
everyman. And you and I bothlove this . . .
Larissa Parson (31:18):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:18):
Its just so good, and so brilliant. And
so there's those kind of booksthat we need to read to so I'm
not saying "read all the Blacktrauma stories" . I'm not saying
that as a white person here. ButI'm also sort of saying it is
important for us to read thosepieces, too. Both the trauma
because we can and the Black joytoo.
Larissa Parson (31:36):
Yeah, yeah. I think that was really well put
Elizabeth, because that's what Iwas going exactly what I would
say is that it's really, it'sreally important for me to read
a lot of black joy, brown joy,indigenous joy. Yes, queer joy
of all kinds and flavors. Ithat's what I meant earlier. And
(31:57):
like, if there's no joy, I'mprobably not going to get all
the way through it. And, andthat doesn't mean that like, I
won't pick up a hardemotionally, like brutal book,
it just means I'll do it like,once a year. And I think when
you were speaking about kind oflike, what you can't read, I
(32:17):
think that when we talk aboutputting down a book, it's fair,
as a reader to say there aresome third rail topics, where
you just can't go there. And youcan come back to the maybe in 10
years, yeah, five years, orafter some more therapy or
whatever, you know, like thereare, but I think it's okay to
(32:37):
have third rail topics in ourlives, as long as we are aware
that those things exist in theworld.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:43):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (32:43):
And like, and I think this like, pulls us back
to our big overarching theme andwonder mind, maybe a little bit,
where we're not asking you todive in, all the way all the
time, take a little test, see ifthat works for you. Try a little
bit, take a break, try a littlebit more, take a break, read
something hard, read somethingeasy, like not that we're giving
(33:06):
advice on what to read. But weare totally giving advice on
what to read all the time, andand how to read. And I think
that knowing what you can't reador what you can't watch is so
important. And knowing that,like there may be other ways of
looking at some of those storiesthat maybe are less immersive,
if that's how you need totitrate your way in. So anyway,
(33:31):
where was I gonna go with all ofthat? I think that that's
basically all we had to sayabout picking up, putting down,
all of that. Do you haveanything else you wanted to add
Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:45):
No, just to lift up that last bit a
little more. So in case peoplezoned out for a quick second
--which I do sometimes when I'mlistening to podcasts (laughter)
- that it's awesome to have that-and I'm not familiar with that
term? --Is it third rail?
Larissa Parson (34:05):
Oh, so okay here, yeah. ere Yeah, a third
rail...This is like...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:08):
I mean, I can guess what you mean, but...
Larissa Parson (34:09):
Hi! City person!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:10):
Okay, thank you.
Larissa Parson (34:15):
So for those of you who did not grow up riding
subways all the time there is onmost subway systems at least on
DC Metro and definitely on BARTin San Francisco and probably
also in Yeah, definitely in NewYork, cuz I've heard stories
about it. There is this thirdelectrified rail and you don't
want to sit on that rail becauseyou'll get electrocuted.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:36):
Okay, good call. Yeah.
Larissa Parson (34:38):
And those are that's what third rail means.
Don't go there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:43):
Yes. You will not get electrocuted if you
have third rail topics that areones you're not going to go to.
And it's still awesome to knowthat you can give yourself
permission to be "those are offlimits for right now." It's this
beautiful like yes/and right?
Yes, this is something I can'ttake right now in this moment
and I may want to go back to itlater on. Thank you for bringing
(35:03):
that up. I love that. Thank you.
On that note..
Larissa Parson (35:09):
thank you for asking me to clarify it because
right, my experience is notuniversal, friends!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:18):
And neither is mine. (laughter)
Thank you so much for listeningto us. And if you would like to
support our work, this is areminder that our patrons find
out first when the new seasondrops and get awesome bonus
content. You can find us atpatreon.com/wondermine.
Larissa Parson (35:38):
and we are so grateful every time you share
Wondermine with friends. Writingus a review will help others
find their wow and their how tolive a life rooted in curiosity,
community and liberationand...maybe just a little bit of
awareness that sometimes noteverybody lives the way you do.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:59):
And in the interim, follow us @
wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thanks everyone. Be well.
Larissa Parson (36:07):
Thank you
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