November 29, 2021 • 57 mins
In this episode, Larissa & Elizabeth discuss what play and getting curious have to do with liberation. If we could sum up this episode in one sentence: How we create a better world is by creating opportunities for people to play together, and to enjoy being together.
Stuff we mentioned:
Honorée Fanonne Jeffers' book, ‘The love songs of WEB DuBois’
'Cloud cuckoo land’ by Anthony Doerr.
Stuart Brown TED talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/stuart_brown_play_is_more_than_just_fun/transcript?language=en#t-758879
Summary of Brown’s work by Larry Maguire-- Larissa found this while googling for a list of the properties and it’s just very concise.
Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory
We mentioned, but did not quote, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi’s work on flow.
Dianne Bondy & Amber Karnes, Yoga for All
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:07):
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Elizabeth M.
Johnson. I'm a parent andpartner. I'm a rape survivor and
a writer. I talk and write abouttrauma, relationships and
culture. And I am a big fan ofrescue dogs.
Larissa Parson (00:23):
Oh, rescue dogs.
I love that. I'm Larissa Parson.
I'm a joy coach, a movementteacher, a mom to twins, a bit
of a hippie and a dabbler inmany hobbies. And we are the duo
behind this limited seriespodcast called Wondermine.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:42):
Wondermine is the limited series feminist
podcast that looks at the "wow"and the "how" of living a life
rooted in curiosity, communityand liberation. If you've ever
felt like something was missing,or you were missing something,
this is the podcast for you.
Larissa Parson (01:00):
And this is our fourth episode. We are going to
be talking today about play andcuriosity - and what the heck
they have to do with liberation.
But first, I want to get us inthe right headspace for a
conversation. So I was thinkingabout how to run this little
exercise this week. And for somereason, I thought about that old
Willy Wonka and the ChocolateFactory movie with Gene Wilder.
(01:22):
And there's this scene whereCharlie and his grandfather have
been so diligent to followinstructions all the way through
the factory tour. They're likealmost at the end. And then they
drink the bubbly drink. And theygo floating up into the air. And
they're just full of bubbles.
And it's just like, reallydelightful feeling that they
(01:44):
have. And they eventually haveto escape. But we're not going
to focus on that we're focusingon the feeling of being
effervescent. So I'd like you toimagine for a second that you
are like a bubble or that youare like one of those characters
just floating around in the air.
So what does it feel like tolose touch with the ground?
Maybe it's a little scary. Maybeit's really exciting. If it
(02:06):
feels like too much, thenimagine that your feet are
steady on the ground, and thatyour arm is the bubble floating
around in the air. And you canjust imagine it drifting up with
ease and floating around like abubble. Or if you're in a place
where you can do that you canwave your arm in the air like a
bubble if that feels good. Andthen let yourself slowly come
(02:29):
down to rest on the earth again.
How'd that feel Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:41):
That felt fantastic. I love that movie.
And I've always wanted to drinkthose fizzy lifting drinks. And
I totally love that it feltloose and free but not out of
control. Not not like I wasgonna hit a breeze and drift
(03:03):
away. So grounded but alsoloose.
Larissa Parson (03:06):
I love that. Oh, good. I'm so glad that worked
for you. Yeah, I wanted to startus off with a kind of playful,
silly exercise like that.
Because sometimes it's hard tostep into that mindset of
wonder. And, you know, feelingit in our bodies a little bit -
(03:27):
getting in touch with thatbubbly effervescence, without
too much loss of control ismaybe a good place to start. Of
course, one of my other favoriteways to step into a mindset of
wonder is through books. So whatdo you mean this week Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:43):
So I am finishing up-- I've got 150
pages left to go Honoree FannonJeffers' book, _The love songs
of WEB DuBois_. And it is justcresting together in this really
magnificent way. There's magicin this book--or maybe the
(04:11):
mirror image, a spiritual or areligious element. I'm seeing it
as magic but I'm not sure ifthat's how its intended. There's
just pieces that I have goneback and read a few times. I
mentioned this last week whenwe're talking about your right
people. But this book is about750 pages. It's really huge. So
it's taking me a while to slogthrough, but it's slog through
(04:35):
meaning it's a wonderful,brilliant read on every possible
level, like at a technical leveland on a storytelling level. And
the way all of these pieces arecoming together and I feel very
strongly about all of thecharacters I've encountered.
There's just there's a lot tosay here and I'm just loving it.
(04:56):
I will be sad when it's done,honestly. It's beautiful.
Larissa Parson (04:58):
I love it when I have a book going, that I'm
anticipating the sadness ofbeing done. That's a really good
feeling with a book. So okay,let's move it up the list of
Move it more towards the frontof the list, the top of the
things to read.
list.
The sad thing is, is that Icurrently have like three
(05:19):
different very long books outfrom the library on my Kindle
right now. And so it will be awhile. It might be December when
I get to it - maybe January.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:33):
We'll see.
Okay. Okay. What about you? Canyou tell us a little bit about
what you're reading?
Larissa Parson (05:37):
Sure, sure. I'm reading cloud cuckoo land by
Anthony Doerr. And, you know,every few months, I read
something by a cis het white guy- not all the time. It's not
very often. And something thatour listeners might not know is
(05:57):
that I studied classics for manyyears. And Cloud Cuckoo Land,
the title of the book comes fromAristophanes play 'The Birds',
the the Greek comedian, comicwriter. And then it also comes
from these fragments of AntoniusDiogenes 'Wonders Beyond Thule'.
(06:21):
And Doerr actually makes up alot of the content of that
latter text because we don'thave a lot of fragments. But
anyway, so it's like, rooted inthese classical texts. And it's
this multi layered story. AndI'm totally enjoying it. He's
(06:42):
braiding together a bunch ofdifferent timelines and
settings, into what he describesas a literary sci fi mystery
young adult historical moralitynovel.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:53):
Wow.
Larissa Parson (06:55):
It's huge. Yeah.
So it's a lot of fun. There aremultiple timelines. Set, I was
gonna say, I don't know ifthey're all set in Istanbul.
There are two separatecharacters who are setting the
same timeline in Constantinople.
(07:18):
But then there's a girl inspace. It's all over the place.
It's really, really, reallygood. And I'm really enjoying
it. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:29):
Nice.
That's great. I like that. I'dlike how you tied the
idea--because we always startoff with "what are we reading?"
and then we finish with "whatare we eating?"-- but I like
that you brought us to the "whatare we reading?" part with this
idea of as you know, this, thiscould tie into our, it's a form
of play, right? And as someonewho is happily having you lead
(07:52):
this conversation, because thisis not my forte, I'm thrilled to
think of reading as a form ofplay, because I'm a big reader.
And I know, we wanted to do thisepisode about play and curiosity
back when we were thinking aboutwhat we're going to put on the
podcast. And we kept coming backto curiosity. And the noticing
over the judging, especially asone of these ways that we step
(08:14):
towards, like this liberatorymindset and away from the
judging, or as we've talkedabout before, like the
commanding or these, these sortof social constructs or whatever
these pieces are, that we needto kind of, that we're "supposed
to" stick to as we move throughlife. So I love play as
(08:36):
liberatory practice. So start usthere, Larissa
Larissa Parson (08:44):
Okay, so I, I feel like with this topic, we're
gonna get to the liberatorypractice. It's probably going to
drop in here and therethroughout our conversation, but
we're really gonna get to it atthe end, because I think we need
to set up a few basic parametersaround it. So about curiosity.
When I started thinking aboutcuriosity as a starting point
(09:07):
for working with people'sbodies, a lot shifted for me,
and the way that I thought aboutworking with people and the way
that I thought about bodies.
Play has been kind of central tomy outlook on life probably
since I was in grad school. Iwrote a paper on humor in Plato.
And the Greeks and the Romanshave just filthy senses of
(09:28):
humor, which I've appreciatedreally, since my Latin classes
in high school, honestly. Sothere's a lot of play in ancient
texts. And, like, again, just topause and note that that doesn't
mean that there weren't problemswith the ancient world. But
there's a lot of humor and playthere. So I feel like it's kind
(09:51):
of hilarious that the book thatI'm reading this week lines up
so well with this topic, becauseit's all based on this
comedy.... So there are twopaths that we're going to walk
down this week. One is play andwhy human adults need to do it.
Like, why do human adults needto do this? What--isn't that
something that kids do? And thenthe other one is curiosity,
(10:14):
which is less of an action andmore of an attitude in my book.
I feel like that's really like,how do we approach things is
with curiosity, which implies alittle playfulness. So let's
start there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:27):
Right.
Great. I love that. Okay, sothen it sounds like we're
starting with play. So let's gothere.
Larissa Parson (10:31):
Yeah. Great. So Elizabeth, I have a really
personal question to ask you.
When is the last time you feltlike you were playing?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:43):
Well, honestly, normally, I would say
reading now that I know that Ican chalk that into that
category. And you've given methat permission. But I would say
it was this morning. And I'vebeen really thinking about this
a lot this week. But my daughteris very big into like, tickle
fights, with boundaries, andthings like that. But we like to
(11:06):
play a couple of like ticklygames, right? I do something
with her neck, and I pretendthere's like a cricket in her
neck. And I'm trying to liketickle her and get the cricket
out, we make cricket-y soundsand it becomes just hilarious.
And super fun. We lose track oftime, I kind of need to, like
rein us in. So that is the playthat I have been doing, most
(11:32):
recently, inside reading,
Larissa Parson (11:34):
I love so like, I love tickling as a form of
play, as you say, withboundaries, when it like that's
when it's really play and notlike a power situation.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:45):
Right.
Larissa Parson (11:45):
So like, I love that, like my one of my kids
really loves to be tickled. Andit's such a good place to play
with boundaries, and with sayingno, and with saying yes and
like, all of these things thatwe really want people to be able
to do. And it's such a great wayfor kids to develop that. And
also for adults to practicelistening to other people's
boundaries.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:06):
Especially kids.
Larissa Parson (12:07):
Yeah, especially kids' boundaries.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:10):
That's yeah, crucial. That's hard for
adults to do. Because so oftenwe're in that place of wanting
to control kids bodies for some--not necessary for one reason-
but in many capacities.
Larissa Parson (12:19):
And frequently arbitrary reasons. Like, I mean,
like, who needs to control akid's body with tickling? Like,
really? Let's stop and thinkabout that for a second. So to
go back to the moment of play,you said you lost track of time.
(12:39):
And how did it feel in yourbody? Like, what does that
experience feel like?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:46):
Always a good kind of hard question for
me. Um, so I think probablypretty loose, and kind of
relaxed.
Larissa Parson (13:01):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:01):
Maybe there's like a sense of like,
when it's tickling kind ofsometimes there's like a sense
of coil, like you're almost likecoiling out to kind of get
someone's little tickly ticklyspot. But I think very...well
very free really.
Larissa Parson (13:18):
Oh, I love that.
I love that. So that is totallywhat we want to feel when we're
playing. We want to feel thatlooseness, maybe that little bit
of anticipation of that thatcoil that you described and that
sense of freedom. So I feel likethis was I wanted to start
there. Because I want to tie itinto what does it feel like for
you and other people can thinkabout what it feels like for
(13:40):
them. Because playing can feeldifferent to all of us. The
words that we use for play mightfeel different to all of us,
especially depending on the kindof play that we're doing. Is it
physical play with your bodylike tickling? Or is it more
intellectual play, like having agreat conversation? So I think
there are some basic principlesthat we can kind of discuss
(14:01):
around play. So in order toreally start off my thinking
about this episode, I consulteda play expert, who is my 10 year
old son, Nick. And here's whathe said, "playing is something
(14:22):
you do that's fun. It's notsomething that you have to do.
When you're forced into it. It'snot fun anymore. It's more fun
with your friends." So it's theright people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:40):
That's exactly what I'm hearing.
Larissa Parson (14:42):
Yeah. and then I asked him about how to start
playing and get this. He said,"sometimes you have to get kind
of bored first." Sometimes youhave to get bored before you can
start playing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:05):
I have so many thoughts on that. Yeah,
sometimes you have to get bored,right. And I think that like so
many things like, we don't oftenallow kids the space to get
bored, because sometimes theirdays are really structured. And
the same for us, right? We oftendon't have space to get bored in
our days. And/or from a traumasurvivor perspective, it can
(15:28):
feel really scary to havedowntime with hours, or even
minutes in front of you, thatare unstructured, and that can
kind of feel unsafe. So the ideaof "sometimes we have to get
bored first," is just sointeresting. But I can see that
would lead us to like somereally simple places. Like I
(15:49):
think about, I think about thetickle game that I do with my
daughter like that sometimes wejust had kind of came up with it
when we were just sort ofplaying around and talking about
things. Or ideas of like, you'rejust walking around, and then
you jump in a pile of leaves,you know. Or something like, I
mean, even a simple game oflike, tag outside, right? Like
(16:11):
you're bored, so let's justchase each other and see who can
like, who gets caught? And whathappens then.
Larissa Parson (16:16):
Yeah, I totally love that. I've watched my other
son, when he was much smaller...
He still does this. He calls it"thinking" now, where he just
runs around kind of like playingin his head. But when he was,
when he was like two or three,we were on a really long road
trip. And we didn't have ascreen for them. They didn't
(16:40):
have screens on this whole roadAnd to come back kind of around
in a circular way to the idea oftrip. And that was hard. But he
took his hands and startedsafety. And what does it mean to
feel okay to play? I think onehaving battles with his hands in
the air. And there was thisof the things that I observe a
lot, and this is this is kind ofsense of just sinking into the
boredom and seeing what youra kid heavy episode, y'all,
because we're both raising kidsbrain comes up with that is so
so good.
(17:01):
at the moment and see a lot ofthis in action. But I think we
can apply this also to kind ofadult situations of play. And we
just have to think a little bitmore creatively about it
sometimes. With kids, you know,there's a lot of questions of
what is what kind of play isokay? What's too dangerous. And
(17:22):
then it's their job to do thatand figure that out and test
those boundaries and test theedges of what's too much. And
what's, what's enough. It'swhere they work out what the
rules are, they learn how tonegotiate with other people, how
to step into another persona, sothey get to try on other selves
and other ways of being. And,like, I was watching my kids
(17:43):
play yesterday with theirteenage babysitter, which is
like, really loud, and reallyaggressive. Just started
stepping into these likecommanding persona, and they're
just yelling at each other andbrandishing weapons and whacking
each other with wooden swordsand all kinds of stuff like
(18:04):
this. Right? And every time Iwould check in with them, Are
you guys okay? Everyone's fine.
They're fine. They're having ablast. And when I was driving
heir sitter home, I was like,o is that okay? Were you guys
kay? And he's like, oh, yeah,hey're fine. This is normal,
hich I love. But, you know,hey had a little bubble of
(18:27):
afety with each other, wherehey all trust each other, and
here they all understand eachther's "no", very clearly. And
artly because my kids are twinsnd spent a lot of time
egotiating that all the time.
nd then because sitter is oldnough, and has also a whole
ile of brothers, that he's beenegotiating this with his whole
(18:47):
ife, you know, he's there, theyere able to create that space
here like, I could hearomebody say, "No, that hurts too
much," or whatever. And thewould stop. It was great. So t
come around to kind of likedefining play a little bit more
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:02):
...which we love. Delightful.
instead of just giving you alanecdotes about my childre
(19:39):
Because it's so different thanhow my own child plays.
Larissa Parson (19:42):
Ah.....
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:43):
That's really interesting to me. You
know, like, there's she will,she organizes her American Girl
dolls and she creates worlds forthem. And she's building...she
did the whole calendar for themand what's on the calendar? Oh,
it's a lot of tests and doctorsappointments and I'm like
"whaat?!" But my mother who wasa teacher said play is a way for
(20:07):
kids understanding how thingswork in the world. And what is,
as you said, these rules. And soit's very, it's really
interesting to hear thedifference between because your
kids are not very different thanmy child in age, right? They're
not that different in age. Sothe difference is really
fascinating too.
Larissa Parson (20:21):
I mean, but I will tell you that my kids right
now are making digital costumesfor their digital characters in
their minecraft game. So youknow, it's not that different.
It just takes a different formand a different kind of like,
yes, a different, it's adifferent picture. In a way,
yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:37):
It is a different picture, right?
Because my kid would get outsome fabric and probably try to
piece something together. Andyours are creating them for
their characters in the game, orthe other thing. Yeah.
Larissa Parson (20:48):
yeah. I mean, one of my kids will also get out
fabric, and he spent a wholeweek just cutting stuff up and
dressing up his stuffed animals.
So you know, like, kids play,got a little bored, didn't have
a game he wanted to play, cutstuff up, again. And there's the
game, there's the thing. So whenwe start talking about play, and
adults, there is one of thefolks who gets cited most
(21:14):
frequently, when it comes toplay is this another white guy
named Dr. Stuart Brown. And thisis like the white guy episode
apparently, of our podcast, Idon't know why it just is. So
Stuart Brown really focuses onow adults lose sight of the
act that play is so important,ot just for kids, but also for
(21:36):
dults. He talks about how plays where creativity comes out,
ecause it doesn't haveonsequences. In the same way
hat you know, just decidingou're going to drive off the
oad might have, you can driveff the road in Fortnite--actuall
, there is no road in Fortnite-you can you can do that. And
(21:59):
here are fewer consequences. Anso he, he also kind of has t
is list of seven properties oflay. And I didn't look at them
ntil after I talked to Nick.
So I think that's kind ofimportant. Because it's
ike, his qualities of play areery much like what my kid said
(22:21):
One of the first things I'lsay is that he has a TED talk
And he says one of the thins about play is that it is
"born by curiosity and exploratin," which again, is going rig
t back to the way you have to ba little bored. First, you ha
e to be a little bored. YeahAnd that statement accompanies-
in the TED Talk--that accompaniea slide of this kid, like pulli
(22:44):
g aside his mother's skirt.
And then he talks about hothis kid's curious about anato
y, and gets a big laugh from te audience. And I'm like, do I w
nt to bring this source into tis podcast? it because i
's a really problematic image,the talk, the TED talk is from
h, gosh, it's easily 10 yearsld. You know, it's from a while
t maybe maybe five or six yearsld? I can't I honestly can't
(23:05):
remember what year it is. Buyou know, so it's a while ag
, and I don't think that thatkind of image would have would
be okay, now. So there's no prfect text or source when we
re starting to talk about. Anyting. Really, I think it's im
ortant to keep that in mind, nojust for this topic, but for ev
rything. And I think that tiesinto something that Elizabeth an
I have talked about quite a bitwhich is that nobody's doing
(23:27):
their best all the t
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:35):
And so stay tuned on that one.
(laughter)
Larissa Parson (23:41):
But anyway, I love that quote, because I feel
like really going back tocuriosity and exploration and
thinking about, like, the ideasthat he's got in his talk, and
in other places, are reallyfantastic ways of coming to an
intellectual understanding ofsomething that we mostly feel in
our bodies. So the sevenproperties that he describes are
these and I pulled this listfrom another white guy, Larry
(24:04):
McGuire, who just wrote up thisbeautiful list of qualities on
his own website. And I was like,Oh, well, that's really nice. I
don't have to go read this bookin two days. It's cool. So here
are these qualities. There is"apparent purposelessness." So
what is the point of tickling?
What's the purpose? Who pays youto tickle somebody? Okay. There
(24:24):
may be somebody who gets paidfor tickling people, but it's
kind of purposeless, right. AndI would say my kids definitely
feel purposeful about theirplaying. But to an outside
observer, a game of tag has nopurpose. There's their purpose
is probably to have fun to besomeone else to explore power,
(24:48):
but they're not going toarticulate that they're just
going to be like, No, we're justhaving fun. That's it. It's
voluntary.
So Nick said this, you have towant to do it. You can't be
forced into playing. It has an"inherent attraction" and that
it makes us feel good. If you'renot having fun, it's not
(25:08):
playing. If you don't feel goodabout it, it's not playing. And
that also comes up later too,like if you, if you're not, if
someone's not having fun, thenit's not a game. If there are a
bunch of people playingtogether. And also, play gives
us "freedom from time." So youwere saying, Elizabeth, that you
(25:30):
felt like you lost track oftime, you didn't have a good
sense of that. And that losingtrack of time is really kind of
bucketing into a flow state. Andwe're are we're not going to
dive into MihalyCsikszentmihalyi's work right
now. But you can if you want toon your own. But that feeling
(25:51):
that you're not watching theclock, but you're so involved in
what you're doing that you justlike, You have no idea how it
got to be an hour later. That iswhat we're talking about. And
then a "diminished selfconsciousness." So Elizabeth,
again, to go back to how youwere describing the tickling,
you felt free, that you weren'tthinking about, well, oh, my
hair is getting mussed from thistickling or anything like that.
(26:15):
You're not thinking about howyou're being perceived in that
moment. I mean, maybe you'rethinking about how you're, if
you're doing a roleplay, howyour character is being
perceived, or how your characteris acting, but it's not a self
conscious thing. It has improv,improvisational potential. So it
has the idea that you can makestuff up. Like my kids, when
(26:37):
they make movies. They don'twrite a script. They have a
general outline that they talkabout. But nobody writes a
script for it. They're justlike, boom, boom, boom, boom,
boom, boom, my character saysthis, I do this. They just start
playing with it. And thenthere's a "continuation desire,"
you want to keep going, it'shard to stop. That's me. A lot
(27:00):
of the time playing AnimalCrossing. So that's it. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:09):
So there's like a couple of things that I'm
thinking about. And one is that,aside from the Animal Crossing
example, it feels like play isoften something we are doing and
or could be doing with our rightpeople.
Larissa Parson (27:24):
Yes, right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:26):
There's a lot of these pieces--whether
it's the continuation desire, orthe improv potential, or the
freedom of time, -- like when Ithink about all or any of the
times that I've played in somecapacity, it's all of these.
(27:47):
Well, not all of them at thesame exact same time, but we're
hitting a lot of those points.
I'm hitting a lot of thosepoints in the play that I am
engaged in.
Larissa Parson (27:55):
yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:55):
But when I think up to about like, "I don't
want to stop doing it", or "Idon't want to stop that moment."
It's like, we just don't want toget in the car and leave that
conversation with one of ourright people, even though it's
dark and cold. And...
Larissa Parson (28:08):
we're getting tired. Exactly, exactly. So
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:12):
I love this. And I want to --and I'm
also thinking about that piecewhere you talked about Stuart
Larissa Parson (28:21):
Brown
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:22):
Yeah, he says something about, like,
"it's a place where we don'thave consequences". You know,
it's a place that was thatright?
Larissa Parson (28:30):
I might have said that. Okay. But yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:33):
Okay, so that's like a bit, also a very
interesting place. So I want tohear a little bit more about
like, how do we as adults, playmore? Now I feel like I'm
getting a sense as to why thismatters, why this is important,
kind of what the qualities areof play. How do we do it more,
Larissa?
Larissa Parson (28:50):
I feel like this goes back to joy. Joy drops,
like little tiny things. So itmight not be saying I'm going to
join a board game club. Becausethat feels like a to-do list
item, you know, unless youreally, really enjoy them. And I
really enjoy board games. So Ihave friends that I play board
games with when I can, because Ireally like winning board games.
(29:15):
And it's, it's, then it's fun.
But that doesn't mean everybodyneeds to do that. It's really
more about noticing, oh, this isfun, and doing more of the fun
thing. So like, when do I getthat sense of timelessness? When
do I get that sense of just thispur- apparent purposelessness.
(29:37):
You know that that sense? I'mjust doing this thing and it's
feels good and it can be withsomebody or with other folks.
I'll say...did you have aquestion?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:50):
No, I'm just thinking that it's
interesting to me as I'm hearingyou speak that once again, we're
in this place of, including morethings in a definition of an
idea than I would have thoughtwould be in there. It's not that
I walked into this conversationthinking that you're going to
(30:12):
talk about board games orkickball. But I'm thinking, "oh
my gosh, one of the things thatI love is these cake and coffee
afternoons twice a year, andhaving all these people come
into our home. I baked a ton ofdifferent cakes, and it was
really beautiful. Like, I loveddoing it, and you lost track of
time doing it. And it's with abunch of people that you know,
(30:34):
would love to eat those foodsand maybe share the tradition of
like a kaffe und kuchen (coffeeand cake) which is like a family
tradition. So, so many pieces ofthis. And I would say like as
the trauma survivor person who--and we can talk more about
this--but it may feel a littlebit abstract the idea of play or
just really except again,inaccessible. The idea that
(30:57):
you're saying is just "noticingwhat the thing is that feels
fun, and then doing more of itwhen you can" feels really is
like really attractive. It feelsreally possible.
Larissa Parson (31:09):
Yeah, yeah. So I completely agree with you there.
And one of the really coolthings that Stuart Brown says in
this, you know, occasionallyproblematic TED talk is this
brilliant bit. This brilliantcouple sentences here. He says,
toward the end, he says, "Iwould encourage you all to
engage, not in the work/playdifferential, where you set
(31:32):
aside time to play, but whereyour life becomes infused,
minute by minute, hour by hourwith body objects, social
fantasy transformational kindsof play," side note, those are
kinds of play, he talks about inthe talk. "And I think you'll
have a better and more empoweredlife." And I think that that,
(31:52):
that is a description of whathappens when you start noticing,
oh, this is fun. This ispleasant, let me have more of
that. And sometimes it's just assimple as noticing, or
recognizing this is how I doplay. This is how I do
(32:13):
creativity. And it doesn't haveto look like somebody else's
kind of play. In otherconversations around play with
Nick before, I've said, youknow, sometimes adults play by
talking. So that's what you werealluding to earlier, Elizabeth,
where it's like, well, I don'twant to go home, I want to keep
talking. And it's cold, and it'sdark, and I gotta pee, and all
(32:33):
of those things, and you don'twant to stop because we're
playing where there's a back andforth around ideas, this thing
leads to that thing, and itfeels really buzzy and
effervescent, and light. And sothat that's, that's how we have
a play-infused life is saying,Oh, that was play, too. That was
(32:57):
pleasure, too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:01):
Yeah. So I like also that he's saying, to
not dwell on "this is my time toplay and this is my time to
work," like that work/playdifferential that he's talking
about. Right? Like, I like thatidea because it feels akin to
the work/life balance formulathat feels impossible and
(33:24):
fraught, and how can we ever getthere, right? That feels
impossible, you know, given howwe live and the expectations
that we have on us on a regularbasis. But more so then: how can
we infuse the joy drops in on aregular basis, as opposed to
setting aside 45 minutes to playkickball or run around the
(33:48):
block? Or do a board game onetime a week? Or you know, do the
thing that's almost likechecking off the box?
Larissa Parson (33:53):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:54):
So I like that a lot. This is all like,
this is starting to make a lotmore sense to me. And I want to
hear a little bit -- becauseI've alluded to it because it's
always like right there in theback of my mind--but what about
people who have like a hardertime accessing play? Because I'm
thinking about those propertiesof like purposelessness and
(34:18):
voluntary and attraction, likeeven like the flow idea that
could feel really hard for folkswho are trauma survivors. Maybe
they're on like a super highalert. Maybe the unstructured
time feels really, really hardand scary for them. Or even
people who have challengesrelaxing into a moment, right? I
(34:41):
know you have seen that fromgroups that you have led the
people who just are kind of likenot quite able to sink in
because it's a new thing forthem or whatever. And it's a new
thing for them and or maybe itwas just dangerous for them to
kind of let down their guard inthat way. And so like what about
those folks? What about thosepeople? How do we how do we make
(35:01):
it more accessible for them?
Larissa Parson (35:03):
I feel like in some ways, there's a little bit
of a, maybe a mindset shift thatwe have to make, like we were
just saying that it infuses yourday to day. It's a joy drop, i
doesn't have to be set asideMaybe for some people creating
set aside time is a great placto start, though, because I ca
do that safely, right
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:22):
Wow. Yeah.
So structure around th
Larissa Parson (35:23):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:25):
Yeah. This is so fascinating! For some of
us who feel really, you know,safe in our space, are not in
crisis, don't have that more oflike, a fresher trauma that
they're kind of trying to manageon a regular basis, then this
(35:47):
idea of joy drops during the dayand accessing those might be
more of the plan. But for thosewho are really struggling with
the unstructured time, the ideaof building it (play) in a
really safe, structured way,would feel would probably feel
really good for them. I lovethat.
Larissa Parson (36:07):
Yeah. So you could say, what's the thing that
you notice? You could start bynoticing what's the thing that I
noticed it feels fun. Okay, Iwant to have more of that. But
I'm also a little bit hesitantabout unstructured time and just
say, well, this, I'm going tosee what happens. So the maybe
you schedule, I'm going to do 30seconds of hula hooping. 30
(36:27):
seconds, do I love this? or thelow bar, you know, low, low low
bar, we don't need to have skyhigh expectations of ourselves.
We're not 10 year olds. Our jobisn't to play all the time. But
we can infuse more playfulnessinto our day by taking a little
moment saying, Okay, I'm goingto let myself do whatever I want
to do right now. The mostimportant thing about play is
(36:53):
that it happens when we feelsafe. And when we feel like we
have a choice. So setting upconditions that allow for the
spontaneity to arise, but thenalso feel safe is going to be a
good place to start. And seekingout one of your right people can
also be a good place to start. Iwant to play more... I'm not
(37:16):
sure. But I think I might likehula hooping? Do you want to
take this hula hoop class withme? That might be a big
commitment. Or it could just belike, I want to play more, will
you order my coffee for me withwhatever you think I would like
in it? You know, like, I want toplay with like, being a little
(37:37):
spontaneous and walking on anedge a little bit for myself
instead of having this completesense of control. But also
knowing that your right personisn't going to order a coffee
for you that you're going tohate.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (37:50):
Wow. Yes.
Larissa Parson (37:52):
Yeah, yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (37:53):
Yeah, I would. Because again, there's
this level of trust between theright people that you're ceding
that to someone who is a safe,trusted person. So you
inherently know that they're notgoing to let you down.
Larissa Parson (38:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Like, I would trust youto pick a coffee for me. I would
trust a few other people that Iget coffee with regularly to
pick a coffee for me. Some of mypeople, I probably would not say
they're going to be my coffeepeople. They're going to be my
like, what, "what card games dowe play tonight?" People? And
that's fine. Yeah, we all havedifferent ways. So we just like
get that nice, safe feeling. Andthen we can open up within that
(38:26):
container.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (38:31):
Yeah, I love that. Okay, so help us get
to the idea, help us transitionto curiosity now.
Larissa Parson (38:39):
So like I said, noticing that you're having a
bodily experience of fun, andexperience of joy of
timelessness and not wanting tostop? That is kind of like this
first step toward realizing thatwe could have pleasure and joy
throughout our lives throughoutour days through these moments.
But the first step of noticingis getting curious. So last
(39:06):
week, when we were talking aboutyour right people, we talked
about how there's a differencebetween a command and an
invitation. And I gave theexample of telling my clients to
bring their pelvis into aneutral position all day, versus
asking them to notice wheretheir pelvis prefers to hang out
periodically. So getting curiousmeans looking at things from
(39:27):
that Invitational point of view,as opposed to a super directive
point of view. It allows us tosay no, when we need to because
we're curious about how we feel.
So if I were to say, Elizabeth,we're going to go walking on
Tuesday, and we're going to haveEarl Grey tea on our walk, and
(39:48):
we're also going to go walkingin the dark in the woods. You
would say? That sounds terrible.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:00):
I thought you're one of my coffee people,
Larissa!
Larissa Parson (40:04):
coffee people.
So that doesn't sound fun. Butif I said, Hey, Elizabeth, do
you want to try? This, thisthis, maybe it wouldn't be all
of those things at once. Thatseems like an awful lot really?
It Right. But we're gettingcurious about it instead of
knowing, like, I know that youwould have a hard no if I said
let's do all of these things.
(40:25):
But if I said, you know, I heardabout this really cool group
lake hike, where we takeflashlights and walk in the dark
or something like that. Youwould, you would either say that
sounds interesting, or no, thatdoesn't sound like the right
thing for me. But we're comingat it with curiosity, not a
demand. Yes. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:40):
Yeah. And one of the key pieces that I
would be responding with is howthe question is. I mean, there's
the information, but it's alsohow this is phrased to me. Is it
a command? Or is it aninvitation? And I love that.
Larissa Parson (41:02):
Yeah.
Yeah. And I feellike there's a lot like, I think
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:03):
Yeah.
for that there's a lot of otherexamples where we think about
adults playing and differentways that we can choose to play
with each other. Like, there's areal difference between saying
to someone, we're going to goplay soccer on Saturday, all of
us whoever it is, versus Hey, doyou wanna? Do you want to play
(41:25):
soccer? Do you like soccer? Doyou even like, I don't like
soccer. I would hate thatinvitation. I'd be like, No,
thanks. I'm excited to drink mycoffee and sitting down. Thank
you very much. That's yeah. Butit's all about the phrasing.
Yeah. Theinvitation piece also feels
personal.
Larissa Parson (41:45):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:45):
It feels like you're speaking to me
instead of the group.
Larissa Parson (41:49):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:51):
And that's a piece that I think is a
crucial bit in order for buy in.
Larissa Parson (41:56):
Yeah. Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:58):
So what does this look like? You
mentioned the piece aboutnoticing where your pelvis is,
but what does this look likekind of in your own work? Aside
from that, how does this showup?
Larissa Parson (42:09):
So I mean, when we're talking about my work,
with people moving their bodies,one of the things I've started
doing all the time is inviting,using the word invitation a lot,
and inviting people to noticeand get curious about how their
bodies respond to positionalcues. So if I say, shift your
weight into your heels in asquat, what do you notice is
happening in your body? Like Imight have an ulterior motive
(42:32):
with that. But I want people tonotice for themselves and be
curious about it, instead ofcoming at it with "I'm supposed
to be feeling this thing in thispart at this time." And then I
can say later, well, what didyou notice? Oh, that's
interesting. What if you try itthis way. And then we can play
with curiosity, instead oftrying to fit fit fit our bodies
into this one particularposition to get this exact right
(42:53):
thing. And then I also reallylike and this is influenced by
the work of Dianne Bondy andAmber Karnes, to say, in a group
class, especially, let's justtake a minute and play with
doing whatever your body wantsto do right now. And I call it
play, like, play with this playwith, oh, let's get in this
position and play with what doesyour body want to do in this
(43:14):
lunge? What does your body wantto do sitting in the chair or
lying on the floor? Do you wantto roll around? Do you want to
take a big stretch? Do you wantto curl into a ball? All of
those things are options, youhave choice, you have safety,
you have a sense of, "I get todo this for as long as I want
to." And it's an invitation, youcould just be there and do
nothing. So ask them what feelsgood. I think as adults, we
(43:36):
don't get asked enough. What doI feel good doing right now? And
not what should I do? Right now?
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:47):
No, we don't. I feel like everyone
listening would agree with me onthat. Because really, I mean, at
what point are we really eventold --except perhaps, but by
someone like you or I, or otherswho were doing this kind of, in
some way, this sort of likeliberatory work, which feels
like really big and I feel alittle bit silly saying that
(44:09):
--but this idea that you are theexpert of your own life, of your
own feelings, of your own body.
And giving someone that kind oftrust and control is a really
big deal. And that is notsomething that comes from people
(44:29):
who are in greater positions ofpower than us easily. They're
not going to cede that to usvery easily. Because when they
are the one in position of powerand acting on that position of
power, we are more easilycontrolled. So I think maybe we
could get into this curiosityand liberation place here.
Larissa Parson (44:49):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:50):
And help us get towards like how that's
connected because I think I seewhere a little bit where you're
going.
Larissa Parson (44:55):
I completely agree. So yeah, like when I say
take a minute and play, I amsaying notice that you have your
own power and that you are youhave agency and that yes
control. And if you can havecontrol in this moment, and if
you can have agency and power inthis moment, you can also have
that in other parts of yourlife. And as someone who has
(45:18):
spent a lot of time making thatconnection for myself, it is a
really big, hard thing to do totake that agency on. And if we
start in these small,accessible, sometimes very
boundaried ways, yeah, then weget to open up to the idea of a
(45:42):
whole bunch of possibilities.
Yeah.
And I think this leads me backto thinking about Adrienne Marie
Brown, talking about howpleasure is a measure of
freedom. And when we get curiousand let ourselves step into a
little bit more play, then weget to discern where the
(46:06):
pleasure is. Where is pleasurefor us? And then how do I get
more of that, because that's theway to freedom. And then when we
start stepping toward, likeliterally stepping, we start
stepping toward pleasure alittle bit more, we start
stepping into play a little bitmore, then we're actively
(46:30):
cultivating joy. And, and thenthat joy, when we have a life
with joy in it when we have alife with play with pleasure,
with delight with curiosity,even when things really are
awful. So even if you got nosleep and your car broke down,
and your kid is screaming, andand now you got a terrible phone
(46:54):
call, let's just throw all thosethings in there. Even in those
moments, if you have this feltsense that they're, that your
life is not only these moments,and that other people's lives
don't need to only be thesemoments, then we have a little
bit more capacity to start cocreating a more just world. But
(47:19):
I think we really don't expandthat capacity if we're only
focusing on all of the hardthings. Yeah, we have to have
pleasure, we have to have joy,we have to take time to let
loose and get creative becausethat's where good solutions come
from. And then one more thingthat I was thinking about is
(47:41):
that play, like we've kind ofbeen alluding to this this whole
time, but play is aboutconnection. A lot of the time,
we can do a lot of solo play. Ican play Animal Crossing all
day. But part of what makes itreally fun for me is chatting
with my friends, or getting onReddit and reading about what
other people are doing. It'sstill a way to build community
and to connect with otherhumans. And that kind of
(48:03):
connection is so essential toliberation. Like we can't have
it without connection, withoutcommunity, and without that
creative. I'm gesturing wildlyin the air. Yes. That creative
verve that play and pleasuregive us. And now I'm gonna take
a break. Okay, yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:23):
I love that. There's so many pieces
here that feel really powerful.
But this idea of like, whenwe're actively stepping into
play, we're cultivating joy.
Larissa Parson (48:35):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:36):
And that's everything, right? That's And so
that feels really powerful in acommunity, that's solidarity.
That's affirmation, that'sworld where things can feel
really small and hard and thatsafety. So this (play) is a
ath to safety for some of us toolike we are stomped on a lot,
and that there's no space forwhich I think that I/we
wouldn't necessarily have tour joy. And what I'm hearing is
- what we've been hearingought of otherwise bef
re this conversation. Thank youo much. I lo
(48:59):
throughout, really our themehere -- is that there's
absolutely space for joy, thatjoy is really essential, and
play is a vehicle to get usthere. And then we are also in
this place where we can engagewith others and build
community--ideally, with some ofour right people--they are then
on that path with us.
Larissa Parson (49:19):
Yeah.
(49:41):
Thank you,Elizabeth. That's a really nice
summary of a lot of words. A lotof words that I just spewed out
and thinking about this and Ijust I feel like I want to as we
start wrapping up I keepthinking about some of the times
when I've seen adults cometogether and play. You can think
about watching people doingcontact improv or things like
(50:02):
that. But I also, just for somereason, it's on my mind to share
about the way that my oldneighborhood Burch Avenue, here
in Durham Does, does stuff ingeneral, but Halloween in
particular, it is a realcommunity situation. There's a
potluck in the park. So there'sfood and community and
(50:22):
gathering. And then there's thiskind of playfulness of
celebrating kids running aroundin costumes. And everybody comes
out and greets each other andtalks to each other. And it's
this real playful moment ofconnection. There's a scavenger
hunt, people decorate theiryards with whatever they they've
got around, decorate with. Somepeople go all out, I may
(50:43):
possibly have been one of thosepeople at some point in time,
which will probably be notsurprising to you at all, a big
surprise.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:53):
Leading the pack over there on Burch
Ave.
Larissa Parson (50:56):
I don't know, there are people who have even
better decorations. But youknow, just kind of getting that
sense of this is how we wecreate a better world is by
creating opportunities forpeople to play together. And to
enjoy being together.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (51:14):
Yeah, I don't know if I'm going to
remember that, to write thatdown to use in a social media
post. But it is so fabulous. Soeveryone pause and listen to
that. Maybe just pause andrewind 30 seconds and listen to
that last bit from Larissa thatI'm sure she did not write down.
And now you all can get it. Butit will also be in the
(51:35):
transcript. So that will save usall. This is beautiful.
So let's close with what we'regoing to be eating this week.
Speaking of play one of mybiggest favorite most forms of
play, I love to cook and bake.
But I also love to eat as weknow. Do you want to go first?
You want me to go first?
Larissa Parson (51:50):
I'm okay with going first if you want. Right?
Okay. So one of the ways that Iplay is I have a book club with
two of my friends. We don't talkabout books. And that may not...
we do sometimes talk aboutbooks, we talked about what
we've been reading, we don'thave like a particular book club
focus. But what we always do inBook Club is eat. So we got
(52:12):
together last weekend. And wewere texting all day, like what
should we have to eat? Whatshould we have to eat? And we
decided on like a charcuterieplatter and some salad and some
of this and some of that. Andeveryone's like, I got this, I
got this, I got this. And it'slike, what can I bring? I can
bring dessert. So I went, youknow, to Whole Foods, not like a
(52:35):
fancy fancy bakery. But I pickedup a pecan pie, and key lime
pie. And I took them. And therewere three of us. And there are
two full sized pies. And I gaveour host you know, a quarter or
a half of one of the pies. I waslike, please take this; I can't
eat all this pie. But I've beeneating pie all week. Like you
know, just when I'm you know,when it's afternoon tea time,
(52:56):
have some pie. Before bed, havesome pie. After the second
breakfast, have some pie. It'sbeen amazing. I'm just so
delighted by it. And I'm reallydone with these two pies. But
thankfully, next week, it'll besweet potato pie. So it'll be a
totally different experience.
Yeah, yeah. How about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (53:19):
I am a big fan of pie. And a big fan of t
is book club. The more I hear aout it, the more I'm thin
ing "I need to start a book club. But it's like a book and food
club. Like I need that kind of tat that ratio, which seems to b
a very positive ratio, but whatver your ratio is, that's the
atio that I want for my bookpie club. That's my only crit
(53:40):
ria. I don't even care what we rad. No, that's not comp
etely true.
Okay, so what am I eating? Okay,so I am going to California to
see my siblings and my dad and Iwill be in the midst of some
really incredible food. It'salways really, really good,
(54:02):
whatever I'm having is alwaysreally delicious. I'm very, very
lucky. But also Thanksgiving isnext week and I -- for all of
the problematic pieces of thisholiday--one of the things that
I do love about it is being withother people and enjoying food
around a table
Larissa Parson (54:22):
yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (54:22):
...that we have made together or at least
participated in the bringingtogether. I actually make a
really good stuffing. I thinkit's actually my dental hygenist
And that'sgot some spinach. And you can
Larissa Parson (54:33):
Yeah.
at one point that it was a"dressing". She's from the
south. So she said if it's it'sstuffing if it goes in the
turkey, and it's dressing if itdoes not. And I'm still like
this has maybe been three orfour years and she's told me
make it with a faux sausage,which is probably what I'll do,
this and I'm still kind of likewow, that's kind of marveling to
me. So I make the dressingbecause it's not going in the
because we've got some veggiefolks there. And, gosh, some
turkey and now I know and it'sfabulous. It's got a couple of
(54:55):
different kinds of cheese-I know my cheeses like I kn
w my own name- it's got somebeautiful Reggiano parmesan and
ike a good plentiful cupsomething. It has some Pecorino
romano. So it's got Reggiano ad Pecorino. Pecorino by
tself is just not as strong, buReggiano together with Pecorino
is just beautiful.
(55:27):
eggs and you bake it a littlebit salt and pepper and a little
bit of olive oil. It'sdelicious. It's my
grandmother's, my father'smother's, recipe that I've made
for a really long time. And atsome point--and I'm going to try
this again, we tried it once andit was a flop huge flop--but
this is a stuffing for ravioli.
So this used to be her raviolistuffing, and then it everyone
loved it so much, Larissa, thatwe've incorporated into
(55:49):
different holidays. So yeah,it's absolutely fantastic. Knock
on wood, it's still gonna begood. Because I just haven't
made it a year, we'll see. Butit's something I love to eat.
And I'm really looking forwardto.
That soundsdelicious. It's so funny. I grew
up on Stovetop, so I waslistening to you talk about
spinach, and I was like, thatsounds so elaborate and
(56:13):
fascinating. Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Cool. Well, I'm excited for youto tell me all about how that
goes. I expect a text at at aminimum, if not a phone call.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (56:24):
Yes, yes.
Yes.
Larissa Parson (56:27):
And we just want to thank you all for listening.
Please share Wondermine withyour friends, write us a review,
help other folks find us. And...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (56:40):
And, in between episodes, you can find
us on Instagram@Wonderminepodcast. Thank you so
much for being with us and wewill talk to you again soon.
Larissa Parson (56:55):
Thank you.
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Elizabeth M.
Johnson. I'm a parent andpartner. I'm a rape survivor and
a writer. I talk and write abouttrauma, relationships and
culture. And I am a big fan ofrescue dogs.
Larissa Parson (00:23):
Oh, rescue dogs.
I love that. I'm Larissa Parson.
I'm a joy coach, a movementteacher, a mom to twins, a bit
of a hippie and a dabbler inmany hobbies. And we are the duo
behind this limited seriespodcast called Wondermine.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:42):
Wondermine is the limited series feminist
podcast that looks at the "wow"and the "how" of living a life
rooted in curiosity, communityand liberation. If you've ever
felt like something was missing,or you were missing something,
this is the podcast for you.
Larissa Parson (01:00):
And this is our fourth episode. We are going to
be talking today about play andcuriosity - and what the heck
they have to do with liberation.
But first, I want to get us inthe right headspace for a
conversation. So I was thinkingabout how to run this little
exercise this week. And for somereason, I thought about that old
Willy Wonka and the ChocolateFactory movie with Gene Wilder.
(01:22):
And there's this scene whereCharlie and his grandfather have
been so diligent to followinstructions all the way through
the factory tour. They're likealmost at the end. And then they
drink the bubbly drink. And theygo floating up into the air. And
they're just full of bubbles.
And it's just like, reallydelightful feeling that they
(01:44):
have. And they eventually haveto escape. But we're not going
to focus on that we're focusingon the feeling of being
effervescent. So I'd like you toimagine for a second that you
are like a bubble or that youare like one of those characters
just floating around in the air.
So what does it feel like tolose touch with the ground?
Maybe it's a little scary. Maybeit's really exciting. If it
(02:06):
feels like too much, thenimagine that your feet are
steady on the ground, and thatyour arm is the bubble floating
around in the air. And you canjust imagine it drifting up with
ease and floating around like abubble. Or if you're in a place
where you can do that you canwave your arm in the air like a
bubble if that feels good. Andthen let yourself slowly come
(02:29):
down to rest on the earth again.
How'd that feel Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:41):
That felt fantastic. I love that movie.
And I've always wanted to drinkthose fizzy lifting drinks. And
I totally love that it feltloose and free but not out of
control. Not not like I wasgonna hit a breeze and drift
(03:03):
away. So grounded but alsoloose.
Larissa Parson (03:06):
I love that. Oh, good. I'm so glad that worked
for you. Yeah, I wanted to startus off with a kind of playful,
silly exercise like that.
Because sometimes it's hard tostep into that mindset of
wonder. And, you know, feelingit in our bodies a little bit -
(03:27):
getting in touch with thatbubbly effervescence, without
too much loss of control ismaybe a good place to start. Of
course, one of my other favoriteways to step into a mindset of
wonder is through books. So whatdo you mean this week Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:43):
So I am finishing up-- I've got 150
pages left to go Honoree FannonJeffers' book, _The love songs
of WEB DuBois_. And it is justcresting together in this really
magnificent way. There's magicin this book--or maybe the
(04:11):
mirror image, a spiritual or areligious element. I'm seeing it
as magic but I'm not sure ifthat's how its intended. There's
just pieces that I have goneback and read a few times. I
mentioned this last week whenwe're talking about your right
people. But this book is about750 pages. It's really huge. So
it's taking me a while to slogthrough, but it's slog through
(04:35):
meaning it's a wonderful,brilliant read on every possible
level, like at a technical leveland on a storytelling level. And
the way all of these pieces arecoming together and I feel very
strongly about all of thecharacters I've encountered.
There's just there's a lot tosay here and I'm just loving it.
(04:56):
I will be sad when it's done,honestly. It's beautiful.
Larissa Parson (04:58):
I love it when I have a book going, that I'm
anticipating the sadness ofbeing done. That's a really good
feeling with a book. So okay,let's move it up the list of
Move it more towards the frontof the list, the top of the
things to read.
list.
The sad thing is, is that Icurrently have like three
(05:19):
different very long books outfrom the library on my Kindle
right now. And so it will be awhile. It might be December when
I get to it - maybe January.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:33):
We'll see.
Okay. Okay. What about you? Canyou tell us a little bit about
what you're reading?
Larissa Parson (05:37):
Sure, sure. I'm reading cloud cuckoo land by
Anthony Doerr. And, you know,every few months, I read
something by a cis het white guy- not all the time. It's not
very often. And something thatour listeners might not know is
(05:57):
that I studied classics for manyyears. And Cloud Cuckoo Land,
the title of the book comes fromAristophanes play 'The Birds',
the the Greek comedian, comicwriter. And then it also comes
from these fragments of AntoniusDiogenes 'Wonders Beyond Thule'.
(06:21):
And Doerr actually makes up alot of the content of that
latter text because we don'thave a lot of fragments. But
anyway, so it's like, rooted inthese classical texts. And it's
this multi layered story. AndI'm totally enjoying it. He's
(06:42):
braiding together a bunch ofdifferent timelines and
settings, into what he describesas a literary sci fi mystery
young adult historical moralitynovel.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:53):
Wow.
Larissa Parson (06:55):
It's huge. Yeah.
So it's a lot of fun. There aremultiple timelines. Set, I was
gonna say, I don't know ifthey're all set in Istanbul.
There are two separatecharacters who are setting the
same timeline in Constantinople.
(07:18):
But then there's a girl inspace. It's all over the place.
It's really, really, reallygood. And I'm really enjoying
it. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:29):
Nice.
That's great. I like that. I'dlike how you tied the
idea--because we always startoff with "what are we reading?"
and then we finish with "whatare we eating?"-- but I like
that you brought us to the "whatare we reading?" part with this
idea of as you know, this, thiscould tie into our, it's a form
of play, right? And as someonewho is happily having you lead
(07:52):
this conversation, because thisis not my forte, I'm thrilled to
think of reading as a form ofplay, because I'm a big reader.
And I know, we wanted to do thisepisode about play and curiosity
back when we were thinking aboutwhat we're going to put on the
podcast. And we kept coming backto curiosity. And the noticing
over the judging, especially asone of these ways that we step
(08:14):
towards, like this liberatorymindset and away from the
judging, or as we've talkedabout before, like the
commanding or these, these sortof social constructs or whatever
these pieces are, that we needto kind of, that we're "supposed
to" stick to as we move throughlife. So I love play as
(08:36):
liberatory practice. So start usthere, Larissa
Larissa Parson (08:44):
Okay, so I, I feel like with this topic, we're
gonna get to the liberatorypractice. It's probably going to
drop in here and therethroughout our conversation, but
we're really gonna get to it atthe end, because I think we need
to set up a few basic parametersaround it. So about curiosity.
When I started thinking aboutcuriosity as a starting point
(09:07):
for working with people'sbodies, a lot shifted for me,
and the way that I thought aboutworking with people and the way
that I thought about bodies.
Play has been kind of central tomy outlook on life probably
since I was in grad school. Iwrote a paper on humor in Plato.
And the Greeks and the Romanshave just filthy senses of
(09:28):
humor, which I've appreciatedreally, since my Latin classes
in high school, honestly. Sothere's a lot of play in ancient
texts. And, like, again, just topause and note that that doesn't
mean that there weren't problemswith the ancient world. But
there's a lot of humor and playthere. So I feel like it's kind
(09:51):
of hilarious that the book thatI'm reading this week lines up
so well with this topic, becauseit's all based on this
comedy.... So there are twopaths that we're going to walk
down this week. One is play andwhy human adults need to do it.
Like, why do human adults needto do this? What--isn't that
something that kids do? And thenthe other one is curiosity,
(10:14):
which is less of an action andmore of an attitude in my book.
I feel like that's really like,how do we approach things is
with curiosity, which implies alittle playfulness. So let's
start there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:27):
Right.
Great. I love that. Okay, sothen it sounds like we're
starting with play. So let's gothere.
Larissa Parson (10:31):
Yeah. Great. So Elizabeth, I have a really
personal question to ask you.
When is the last time you feltlike you were playing?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:43):
Well, honestly, normally, I would say
reading now that I know that Ican chalk that into that
category. And you've given methat permission. But I would say
it was this morning. And I'vebeen really thinking about this
a lot this week. But my daughteris very big into like, tickle
fights, with boundaries, andthings like that. But we like to
(11:06):
play a couple of like ticklygames, right? I do something
with her neck, and I pretendthere's like a cricket in her
neck. And I'm trying to liketickle her and get the cricket
out, we make cricket-y soundsand it becomes just hilarious.
And super fun. We lose track oftime, I kind of need to, like
rein us in. So that is the playthat I have been doing, most
(11:32):
recently, inside reading,
Larissa Parson (11:34):
I love so like, I love tickling as a form of
play, as you say, withboundaries, when it like that's
when it's really play and notlike a power situation.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:45):
Right.
Larissa Parson (11:45):
So like, I love that, like my one of my kids
really loves to be tickled. Andit's such a good place to play
with boundaries, and with sayingno, and with saying yes and
like, all of these things thatwe really want people to be able
to do. And it's such a great wayfor kids to develop that. And
also for adults to practicelistening to other people's
boundaries.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:06):
Especially kids.
Larissa Parson (12:07):
Yeah, especially kids' boundaries.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:10):
That's yeah, crucial. That's hard for
adults to do. Because so oftenwe're in that place of wanting
to control kids bodies for some--not necessary for one reason-
but in many capacities.
Larissa Parson (12:19):
And frequently arbitrary reasons. Like, I mean,
like, who needs to control akid's body with tickling? Like,
really? Let's stop and thinkabout that for a second. So to
go back to the moment of play,you said you lost track of time.
(12:39):
And how did it feel in yourbody? Like, what does that
experience feel like?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:46):
Always a good kind of hard question for
me. Um, so I think probablypretty loose, and kind of
relaxed.
Larissa Parson (13:01):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:01):
Maybe there's like a sense of like,
when it's tickling kind ofsometimes there's like a sense
of coil, like you're almost likecoiling out to kind of get
someone's little tickly ticklyspot. But I think very...well
very free really.
Larissa Parson (13:18):
Oh, I love that.
I love that. So that is totallywhat we want to feel when we're
playing. We want to feel thatlooseness, maybe that little bit
of anticipation of that thatcoil that you described and that
sense of freedom. So I feel likethis was I wanted to start
there. Because I want to tie itinto what does it feel like for
you and other people can thinkabout what it feels like for
(13:40):
them. Because playing can feeldifferent to all of us. The
words that we use for play mightfeel different to all of us,
especially depending on the kindof play that we're doing. Is it
physical play with your bodylike tickling? Or is it more
intellectual play, like having agreat conversation? So I think
there are some basic principlesthat we can kind of discuss
(14:01):
around play. So in order toreally start off my thinking
about this episode, I consulteda play expert, who is my 10 year
old son, Nick. And here's whathe said, "playing is something
(14:22):
you do that's fun. It's notsomething that you have to do.
When you're forced into it. It'snot fun anymore. It's more fun
with your friends." So it's theright people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:40):
That's exactly what I'm hearing.
Larissa Parson (14:42):
Yeah. and then I asked him about how to start
playing and get this. He said,"sometimes you have to get kind
of bored first." Sometimes youhave to get bored before you can
start playing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:05):
I have so many thoughts on that. Yeah,
sometimes you have to get bored,right. And I think that like so
many things like, we don't oftenallow kids the space to get
bored, because sometimes theirdays are really structured. And
the same for us, right? We oftendon't have space to get bored in
our days. And/or from a traumasurvivor perspective, it can
(15:28):
feel really scary to havedowntime with hours, or even
minutes in front of you, thatare unstructured, and that can
kind of feel unsafe. So the ideaof "sometimes we have to get
bored first," is just sointeresting. But I can see that
would lead us to like somereally simple places. Like I
(15:49):
think about, I think about thetickle game that I do with my
daughter like that sometimes wejust had kind of came up with it
when we were just sort ofplaying around and talking about
things. Or ideas of like, you'rejust walking around, and then
you jump in a pile of leaves,you know. Or something like, I
mean, even a simple game oflike, tag outside, right? Like
(16:11):
you're bored, so let's justchase each other and see who can
like, who gets caught? And whathappens then.
Larissa Parson (16:16):
Yeah, I totally love that. I've watched my other
son, when he was much smaller...
He still does this. He calls it"thinking" now, where he just
runs around kind of like playingin his head. But when he was,
when he was like two or three,we were on a really long road
trip. And we didn't have ascreen for them. They didn't
(16:40):
have screens on this whole roadAnd to come back kind of around
in a circular way to the idea oftrip. And that was hard. But he
took his hands and startedsafety. And what does it mean to
feel okay to play? I think onehaving battles with his hands in
the air. And there was thisof the things that I observe a
lot, and this is this is kind ofsense of just sinking into the
boredom and seeing what youra kid heavy episode, y'all,
because we're both raising kidsbrain comes up with that is so
so good.
(17:01):
at the moment and see a lot ofthis in action. But I think we
can apply this also to kind ofadult situations of play. And we
just have to think a little bitmore creatively about it
sometimes. With kids, you know,there's a lot of questions of
what is what kind of play isokay? What's too dangerous. And
(17:22):
then it's their job to do thatand figure that out and test
those boundaries and test theedges of what's too much. And
what's, what's enough. It'swhere they work out what the
rules are, they learn how tonegotiate with other people, how
to step into another persona, sothey get to try on other selves
and other ways of being. And,like, I was watching my kids
(17:43):
play yesterday with theirteenage babysitter, which is
like, really loud, and reallyaggressive. Just started
stepping into these likecommanding persona, and they're
just yelling at each other andbrandishing weapons and whacking
each other with wooden swordsand all kinds of stuff like
(18:04):
this. Right? And every time Iwould check in with them, Are
you guys okay? Everyone's fine.
They're fine. They're having ablast. And when I was driving
heir sitter home, I was like,o is that okay? Were you guys
kay? And he's like, oh, yeah,hey're fine. This is normal,
hich I love. But, you know,hey had a little bubble of
(18:27):
afety with each other, wherehey all trust each other, and
here they all understand eachther's "no", very clearly. And
artly because my kids are twinsnd spent a lot of time
egotiating that all the time.
nd then because sitter is oldnough, and has also a whole
ile of brothers, that he's beenegotiating this with his whole
(18:47):
ife, you know, he's there, theyere able to create that space
here like, I could hearomebody say, "No, that hurts too
much," or whatever. And thewould stop. It was great. So t
come around to kind of likedefining play a little bit more
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:02):
...which we love. Delightful.
instead of just giving you alanecdotes about my childre
(19:39):
Because it's so different thanhow my own child plays.
Larissa Parson (19:42):
Ah.....
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:43):
That's really interesting to me. You
know, like, there's she will,she organizes her American Girl
dolls and she creates worlds forthem. And she's building...she
did the whole calendar for themand what's on the calendar? Oh,
it's a lot of tests and doctorsappointments and I'm like
"whaat?!" But my mother who wasa teacher said play is a way for
(20:07):
kids understanding how thingswork in the world. And what is,
as you said, these rules. And soit's very, it's really
interesting to hear thedifference between because your
kids are not very different thanmy child in age, right? They're
not that different in age. Sothe difference is really
fascinating too.
Larissa Parson (20:21):
I mean, but I will tell you that my kids right
now are making digital costumesfor their digital characters in
their minecraft game. So youknow, it's not that different.
It just takes a different formand a different kind of like,
yes, a different, it's adifferent picture. In a way,
yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:37):
It is a different picture, right?
Because my kid would get outsome fabric and probably try to
piece something together. Andyours are creating them for
their characters in the game, orthe other thing. Yeah.
Larissa Parson (20:48):
yeah. I mean, one of my kids will also get out
fabric, and he spent a wholeweek just cutting stuff up and
dressing up his stuffed animals.
So you know, like, kids play,got a little bored, didn't have
a game he wanted to play, cutstuff up, again. And there's the
game, there's the thing. So whenwe start talking about play, and
adults, there is one of thefolks who gets cited most
(21:14):
frequently, when it comes toplay is this another white guy
named Dr. Stuart Brown. And thisis like the white guy episode
apparently, of our podcast, Idon't know why it just is. So
Stuart Brown really focuses onow adults lose sight of the
act that play is so important,ot just for kids, but also for
(21:36):
dults. He talks about how plays where creativity comes out,
ecause it doesn't haveonsequences. In the same way
hat you know, just decidingou're going to drive off the
oad might have, you can driveff the road in Fortnite--actuall
, there is no road in Fortnite-you can you can do that. And
(21:59):
here are fewer consequences. Anso he, he also kind of has t
is list of seven properties oflay. And I didn't look at them
ntil after I talked to Nick.
So I think that's kind ofimportant. Because it's
ike, his qualities of play areery much like what my kid said
(22:21):
One of the first things I'lsay is that he has a TED talk
And he says one of the thins about play is that it is
"born by curiosity and exploratin," which again, is going rig
t back to the way you have to ba little bored. First, you ha
e to be a little bored. YeahAnd that statement accompanies-
in the TED Talk--that accompaniea slide of this kid, like pulli
(22:44):
g aside his mother's skirt.
And then he talks about hothis kid's curious about anato
y, and gets a big laugh from te audience. And I'm like, do I w
nt to bring this source into tis podcast? it because i
's a really problematic image,the talk, the TED talk is from
h, gosh, it's easily 10 yearsld. You know, it's from a while
t maybe maybe five or six yearsld? I can't I honestly can't
(23:05):
remember what year it is. Buyou know, so it's a while ag
, and I don't think that thatkind of image would have would
be okay, now. So there's no prfect text or source when we
re starting to talk about. Anyting. Really, I think it's im
ortant to keep that in mind, nojust for this topic, but for ev
rything. And I think that tiesinto something that Elizabeth an
I have talked about quite a bitwhich is that nobody's doing
(23:27):
their best all the t
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:35):
And so stay tuned on that one.
(laughter)
Larissa Parson (23:41):
But anyway, I love that quote, because I feel
like really going back tocuriosity and exploration and
thinking about, like, the ideasthat he's got in his talk, and
in other places, are reallyfantastic ways of coming to an
intellectual understanding ofsomething that we mostly feel in
our bodies. So the sevenproperties that he describes are
these and I pulled this listfrom another white guy, Larry
(24:04):
McGuire, who just wrote up thisbeautiful list of qualities on
his own website. And I was like,Oh, well, that's really nice. I
don't have to go read this bookin two days. It's cool. So here
are these qualities. There is"apparent purposelessness." So
what is the point of tickling?
What's the purpose? Who pays youto tickle somebody? Okay. There
(24:24):
may be somebody who gets paidfor tickling people, but it's
kind of purposeless, right. AndI would say my kids definitely
feel purposeful about theirplaying. But to an outside
observer, a game of tag has nopurpose. There's their purpose
is probably to have fun to besomeone else to explore power,
(24:48):
but they're not going toarticulate that they're just
going to be like, No, we're justhaving fun. That's it. It's
voluntary.
So Nick said this, you have towant to do it. You can't be
forced into playing. It has an"inherent attraction" and that
it makes us feel good. If you'renot having fun, it's not
(25:08):
playing. If you don't feel goodabout it, it's not playing. And
that also comes up later too,like if you, if you're not, if
someone's not having fun, thenit's not a game. If there are a
bunch of people playingtogether. And also, play gives
us "freedom from time." So youwere saying, Elizabeth, that you
(25:30):
felt like you lost track oftime, you didn't have a good
sense of that. And that losingtrack of time is really kind of
bucketing into a flow state. Andwe're are we're not going to
dive into MihalyCsikszentmihalyi's work right
now. But you can if you want toon your own. But that feeling
(25:51):
that you're not watching theclock, but you're so involved in
what you're doing that you justlike, You have no idea how it
got to be an hour later. That iswhat we're talking about. And
then a "diminished selfconsciousness." So Elizabeth,
again, to go back to how youwere describing the tickling,
you felt free, that you weren'tthinking about, well, oh, my
hair is getting mussed from thistickling or anything like that.
(26:15):
You're not thinking about howyou're being perceived in that
moment. I mean, maybe you'rethinking about how you're, if
you're doing a roleplay, howyour character is being
perceived, or how your characteris acting, but it's not a self
conscious thing. It has improv,improvisational potential. So it
has the idea that you can makestuff up. Like my kids, when
(26:37):
they make movies. They don'twrite a script. They have a
general outline that they talkabout. But nobody writes a
script for it. They're justlike, boom, boom, boom, boom,
boom, boom, my character saysthis, I do this. They just start
playing with it. And thenthere's a "continuation desire,"
you want to keep going, it'shard to stop. That's me. A lot
(27:00):
of the time playing AnimalCrossing. So that's it. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:09):
So there's like a couple of things that I'm
thinking about. And one is that,aside from the Animal Crossing
example, it feels like play isoften something we are doing and
or could be doing with our rightpeople.
Larissa Parson (27:24):
Yes, right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:26):
There's a lot of these pieces--whether
it's the continuation desire, orthe improv potential, or the
freedom of time, -- like when Ithink about all or any of the
times that I've played in somecapacity, it's all of these.
(27:47):
Well, not all of them at thesame exact same time, but we're
hitting a lot of those points.
I'm hitting a lot of thosepoints in the play that I am
engaged in.
Larissa Parson (27:55):
yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:55):
But when I think up to about like, "I don't
want to stop doing it", or "Idon't want to stop that moment."
It's like, we just don't want toget in the car and leave that
conversation with one of ourright people, even though it's
dark and cold. And...
Larissa Parson (28:08):
we're getting tired. Exactly, exactly. So
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:12):
I love this. And I want to --and I'm
also thinking about that piecewhere you talked about Stuart
Larissa Parson (28:21):
Brown
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:22):
Yeah, he says something about, like,
"it's a place where we don'thave consequences". You know,
it's a place that was thatright?
Larissa Parson (28:30):
I might have said that. Okay. But yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:33):
Okay, so that's like a bit, also a very
interesting place. So I want tohear a little bit more about
like, how do we as adults, playmore? Now I feel like I'm
getting a sense as to why thismatters, why this is important,
kind of what the qualities areof play. How do we do it more,
Larissa?
Larissa Parson (28:50):
I feel like this goes back to joy. Joy drops,
like little tiny things. So itmight not be saying I'm going to
join a board game club. Becausethat feels like a to-do list
item, you know, unless youreally, really enjoy them. And I
really enjoy board games. So Ihave friends that I play board
games with when I can, because Ireally like winning board games.
(29:15):
And it's, it's, then it's fun.
But that doesn't mean everybodyneeds to do that. It's really
more about noticing, oh, this isfun, and doing more of the fun
thing. So like, when do I getthat sense of timelessness? When
do I get that sense of just thispur- apparent purposelessness.
(29:37):
You know that that sense? I'mjust doing this thing and it's
feels good and it can be withsomebody or with other folks.
I'll say...did you have aquestion?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:50):
No, I'm just thinking that it's
interesting to me as I'm hearingyou speak that once again, we're
in this place of, including morethings in a definition of an
idea than I would have thoughtwould be in there. It's not that
I walked into this conversationthinking that you're going to
(30:12):
talk about board games orkickball. But I'm thinking, "oh
my gosh, one of the things thatI love is these cake and coffee
afternoons twice a year, andhaving all these people come
into our home. I baked a ton ofdifferent cakes, and it was
really beautiful. Like, I loveddoing it, and you lost track of
time doing it. And it's with abunch of people that you know,
(30:34):
would love to eat those foodsand maybe share the tradition of
like a kaffe und kuchen (coffeeand cake) which is like a family
tradition. So, so many pieces ofthis. And I would say like as
the trauma survivor person who--and we can talk more about
this--but it may feel a littlebit abstract the idea of play or
just really except again,inaccessible. The idea that
(30:57):
you're saying is just "noticingwhat the thing is that feels
fun, and then doing more of itwhen you can" feels really is
like really attractive. It feelsreally possible.
Larissa Parson (31:09):
Yeah, yeah. So I completely agree with you there.
And one of the really coolthings that Stuart Brown says in
this, you know, occasionallyproblematic TED talk is this
brilliant bit. This brilliantcouple sentences here. He says,
toward the end, he says, "Iwould encourage you all to
engage, not in the work/playdifferential, where you set
(31:32):
aside time to play, but whereyour life becomes infused,
minute by minute, hour by hourwith body objects, social
fantasy transformational kindsof play," side note, those are
kinds of play, he talks about inthe talk. "And I think you'll
have a better and more empoweredlife." And I think that that,
(31:52):
that is a description of whathappens when you start noticing,
oh, this is fun. This ispleasant, let me have more of
that. And sometimes it's just assimple as noticing, or
recognizing this is how I doplay. This is how I do
(32:13):
creativity. And it doesn't haveto look like somebody else's
kind of play. In otherconversations around play with
Nick before, I've said, youknow, sometimes adults play by
talking. So that's what you werealluding to earlier, Elizabeth,
where it's like, well, I don'twant to go home, I want to keep
talking. And it's cold, and it'sdark, and I gotta pee, and all
(32:33):
of those things, and you don'twant to stop because we're
playing where there's a back andforth around ideas, this thing
leads to that thing, and itfeels really buzzy and
effervescent, and light. And sothat that's, that's how we have
a play-infused life is saying,Oh, that was play, too. That was
(32:57):
pleasure, too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:01):
Yeah. So I like also that he's saying, to
not dwell on "this is my time toplay and this is my time to
work," like that work/playdifferential that he's talking
about. Right? Like, I like thatidea because it feels akin to
the work/life balance formulathat feels impossible and
(33:24):
fraught, and how can we ever getthere, right? That feels
impossible, you know, given howwe live and the expectations
that we have on us on a regularbasis. But more so then: how can
we infuse the joy drops in on aregular basis, as opposed to
setting aside 45 minutes to playkickball or run around the
(33:48):
block? Or do a board game onetime a week? Or you know, do the
thing that's almost likechecking off the box?
Larissa Parson (33:53):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:54):
So I like that a lot. This is all like,
this is starting to make a lotmore sense to me. And I want to
hear a little bit -- becauseI've alluded to it because it's
always like right there in theback of my mind--but what about
people who have like a hardertime accessing play? Because I'm
thinking about those propertiesof like purposelessness and
(34:18):
voluntary and attraction, likeeven like the flow idea that
could feel really hard for folkswho are trauma survivors. Maybe
they're on like a super highalert. Maybe the unstructured
time feels really, really hardand scary for them. Or even
people who have challengesrelaxing into a moment, right? I
(34:41):
know you have seen that fromgroups that you have led the
people who just are kind of likenot quite able to sink in
because it's a new thing forthem or whatever. And it's a new
thing for them and or maybe itwas just dangerous for them to
kind of let down their guard inthat way. And so like what about
those folks? What about thosepeople? How do we how do we make
(35:01):
it more accessible for them?
Larissa Parson (35:03):
I feel like in some ways, there's a little bit
of a, maybe a mindset shift thatwe have to make, like we were
just saying that it infuses yourday to day. It's a joy drop, i
doesn't have to be set asideMaybe for some people creating
set aside time is a great placto start, though, because I ca
do that safely, right
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:22):
Wow. Yeah.
So structure around th
Larissa Parson (35:23):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:25):
Yeah. This is so fascinating! For some of
us who feel really, you know,safe in our space, are not in
crisis, don't have that more oflike, a fresher trauma that
they're kind of trying to manageon a regular basis, then this
(35:47):
idea of joy drops during the dayand accessing those might be
more of the plan. But for thosewho are really struggling with
the unstructured time, the ideaof building it (play) in a
really safe, structured way,would feel would probably feel
really good for them. I lovethat.
Larissa Parson (36:07):
Yeah. So you could say, what's the thing that
you notice? You could start bynoticing what's the thing that I
noticed it feels fun. Okay, Iwant to have more of that. But
I'm also a little bit hesitantabout unstructured time and just
say, well, this, I'm going tosee what happens. So the maybe
you schedule, I'm going to do 30seconds of hula hooping. 30
(36:27):
seconds, do I love this? or thelow bar, you know, low, low low
bar, we don't need to have skyhigh expectations of ourselves.
We're not 10 year olds. Our jobisn't to play all the time. But
we can infuse more playfulnessinto our day by taking a little
moment saying, Okay, I'm goingto let myself do whatever I want
to do right now. The mostimportant thing about play is
(36:53):
that it happens when we feelsafe. And when we feel like we
have a choice. So setting upconditions that allow for the
spontaneity to arise, but thenalso feel safe is going to be a
good place to start. And seekingout one of your right people can
also be a good place to start. Iwant to play more... I'm not
(37:16):
sure. But I think I might likehula hooping? Do you want to
take this hula hoop class withme? That might be a big
commitment. Or it could just belike, I want to play more, will
you order my coffee for me withwhatever you think I would like
in it? You know, like, I want toplay with like, being a little
(37:37):
spontaneous and walking on anedge a little bit for myself
instead of having this completesense of control. But also
knowing that your right personisn't going to order a coffee
for you that you're going tohate.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (37:50):
Wow. Yes.
Larissa Parson (37:52):
Yeah, yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (37:53):
Yeah, I would. Because again, there's
this level of trust between theright people that you're ceding
that to someone who is a safe,trusted person. So you
inherently know that they're notgoing to let you down.
Larissa Parson (38:04):
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly. Like, I would trust youto pick a coffee for me. I would
trust a few other people that Iget coffee with regularly to
pick a coffee for me. Some of mypeople, I probably would not say
they're going to be my coffeepeople. They're going to be my
like, what, "what card games dowe play tonight?" People? And
that's fine. Yeah, we all havedifferent ways. So we just like
get that nice, safe feeling. Andthen we can open up within that
(38:26):
container.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (38:31):
Yeah, I love that. Okay, so help us get
to the idea, help us transitionto curiosity now.
Larissa Parson (38:39):
So like I said, noticing that you're having a
bodily experience of fun, andexperience of joy of
timelessness and not wanting tostop? That is kind of like this
first step toward realizing thatwe could have pleasure and joy
throughout our lives throughoutour days through these moments.
But the first step of noticingis getting curious. So last
(39:06):
week, when we were talking aboutyour right people, we talked
about how there's a differencebetween a command and an
invitation. And I gave theexample of telling my clients to
bring their pelvis into aneutral position all day, versus
asking them to notice wheretheir pelvis prefers to hang out
periodically. So getting curiousmeans looking at things from
(39:27):
that Invitational point of view,as opposed to a super directive
point of view. It allows us tosay no, when we need to because
we're curious about how we feel.
So if I were to say, Elizabeth,we're going to go walking on
Tuesday, and we're going to haveEarl Grey tea on our walk, and
(39:48):
we're also going to go walkingin the dark in the woods. You
would say? That sounds terrible.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:00):
I thought you're one of my coffee people,
Larissa!
Larissa Parson (40:04):
coffee people.
So that doesn't sound fun. Butif I said, Hey, Elizabeth, do
you want to try? This, thisthis, maybe it wouldn't be all
of those things at once. Thatseems like an awful lot really?
It Right. But we're gettingcurious about it instead of
knowing, like, I know that youwould have a hard no if I said
let's do all of these things.
(40:25):
But if I said, you know, I heardabout this really cool group
lake hike, where we takeflashlights and walk in the dark
or something like that. Youwould, you would either say that
sounds interesting, or no, thatdoesn't sound like the right
thing for me. But we're comingat it with curiosity, not a
demand. Yes. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:40):
Yeah. And one of the key pieces that I
would be responding with is howthe question is. I mean, there's
the information, but it's alsohow this is phrased to me. Is it
a command? Or is it aninvitation? And I love that.
Larissa Parson (41:02):
Yeah.
Yeah. And I feellike there's a lot like, I think
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:03):
Yeah.
for that there's a lot of otherexamples where we think about
adults playing and differentways that we can choose to play
with each other. Like, there's areal difference between saying
to someone, we're going to goplay soccer on Saturday, all of
us whoever it is, versus Hey, doyou wanna? Do you want to play
(41:25):
soccer? Do you like soccer? Doyou even like, I don't like
soccer. I would hate thatinvitation. I'd be like, No,
thanks. I'm excited to drink mycoffee and sitting down. Thank
you very much. That's yeah. Butit's all about the phrasing.
Yeah. Theinvitation piece also feels
personal.
Larissa Parson (41:45):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:45):
It feels like you're speaking to me
instead of the group.
Larissa Parson (41:49):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:51):
And that's a piece that I think is a
crucial bit in order for buy in.
Larissa Parson (41:56):
Yeah. Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:58):
So what does this look like? You
mentioned the piece aboutnoticing where your pelvis is,
but what does this look likekind of in your own work? Aside
from that, how does this showup?
Larissa Parson (42:09):
So I mean, when we're talking about my work,
with people moving their bodies,one of the things I've started
doing all the time is inviting,using the word invitation a lot,
and inviting people to noticeand get curious about how their
bodies respond to positionalcues. So if I say, shift your
weight into your heels in asquat, what do you notice is
happening in your body? Like Imight have an ulterior motive
(42:32):
with that. But I want people tonotice for themselves and be
curious about it, instead ofcoming at it with "I'm supposed
to be feeling this thing in thispart at this time." And then I
can say later, well, what didyou notice? Oh, that's
interesting. What if you try itthis way. And then we can play
with curiosity, instead oftrying to fit fit fit our bodies
into this one particularposition to get this exact right
(42:53):
thing. And then I also reallylike and this is influenced by
the work of Dianne Bondy andAmber Karnes, to say, in a group
class, especially, let's justtake a minute and play with
doing whatever your body wantsto do right now. And I call it
play, like, play with this playwith, oh, let's get in this
position and play with what doesyour body want to do in this
(43:14):
lunge? What does your body wantto do sitting in the chair or
lying on the floor? Do you wantto roll around? Do you want to
take a big stretch? Do you wantto curl into a ball? All of
those things are options, youhave choice, you have safety,
you have a sense of, "I get todo this for as long as I want
to." And it's an invitation, youcould just be there and do
nothing. So ask them what feelsgood. I think as adults, we
(43:36):
don't get asked enough. What doI feel good doing right now? And
not what should I do? Right now?
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:47):
No, we don't. I feel like everyone
listening would agree with me onthat. Because really, I mean, at
what point are we really eventold --except perhaps, but by
someone like you or I, or otherswho were doing this kind of, in
some way, this sort of likeliberatory work, which feels
like really big and I feel alittle bit silly saying that
(44:09):
--but this idea that you are theexpert of your own life, of your
own feelings, of your own body.
And giving someone that kind oftrust and control is a really
big deal. And that is notsomething that comes from people
(44:29):
who are in greater positions ofpower than us easily. They're
not going to cede that to usvery easily. Because when they
are the one in position of powerand acting on that position of
power, we are more easilycontrolled. So I think maybe we
could get into this curiosityand liberation place here.
Larissa Parson (44:49):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:50):
And help us get towards like how that's
connected because I think I seewhere a little bit where you're
going.
Larissa Parson (44:55):
I completely agree. So yeah, like when I say
take a minute and play, I amsaying notice that you have your
own power and that you are youhave agency and that yes
control. And if you can havecontrol in this moment, and if
you can have agency and power inthis moment, you can also have
that in other parts of yourlife. And as someone who has
(45:18):
spent a lot of time making thatconnection for myself, it is a
really big, hard thing to do totake that agency on. And if we
start in these small,accessible, sometimes very
boundaried ways, yeah, then weget to open up to the idea of a
(45:42):
whole bunch of possibilities.
Yeah.
And I think this leads me backto thinking about Adrienne Marie
Brown, talking about howpleasure is a measure of
freedom. And when we get curiousand let ourselves step into a
little bit more play, then weget to discern where the
(46:06):
pleasure is. Where is pleasurefor us? And then how do I get
more of that, because that's theway to freedom. And then when we
start stepping toward, likeliterally stepping, we start
stepping toward pleasure alittle bit more, we start
stepping into play a little bitmore, then we're actively
(46:30):
cultivating joy. And, and thenthat joy, when we have a life
with joy in it when we have alife with play with pleasure,
with delight with curiosity,even when things really are
awful. So even if you got nosleep and your car broke down,
and your kid is screaming, andand now you got a terrible phone
(46:54):
call, let's just throw all thosethings in there. Even in those
moments, if you have this feltsense that they're, that your
life is not only these moments,and that other people's lives
don't need to only be thesemoments, then we have a little
bit more capacity to start cocreating a more just world. But
(47:19):
I think we really don't expandthat capacity if we're only
focusing on all of the hardthings. Yeah, we have to have
pleasure, we have to have joy,we have to take time to let
loose and get creative becausethat's where good solutions come
from. And then one more thingthat I was thinking about is
(47:41):
that play, like we've kind ofbeen alluding to this this whole
time, but play is aboutconnection. A lot of the time,
we can do a lot of solo play. Ican play Animal Crossing all
day. But part of what makes itreally fun for me is chatting
with my friends, or getting onReddit and reading about what
other people are doing. It'sstill a way to build community
and to connect with otherhumans. And that kind of
(48:03):
connection is so essential toliberation. Like we can't have
it without connection, withoutcommunity, and without that
creative. I'm gesturing wildlyin the air. Yes. That creative
verve that play and pleasuregive us. And now I'm gonna take
a break. Okay, yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:23):
I love that. There's so many pieces
here that feel really powerful.
But this idea of like, whenwe're actively stepping into
play, we're cultivating joy.
Larissa Parson (48:35):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:36):
And that's everything, right? That's And so
that feels really powerful in acommunity, that's solidarity.
That's affirmation, that'sworld where things can feel
really small and hard and thatsafety. So this (play) is a
ath to safety for some of us toolike we are stomped on a lot,
and that there's no space forwhich I think that I/we
wouldn't necessarily have tour joy. And what I'm hearing is
- what we've been hearingought of otherwise bef
re this conversation. Thank youo much. I lo
(48:59):
throughout, really our themehere -- is that there's
absolutely space for joy, thatjoy is really essential, and
play is a vehicle to get usthere. And then we are also in
this place where we can engagewith others and build
community--ideally, with some ofour right people--they are then
on that path with us.
Larissa Parson (49:19):
Yeah.
(49:41):
Thank you,Elizabeth. That's a really nice
summary of a lot of words. A lotof words that I just spewed out
and thinking about this and Ijust I feel like I want to as we
start wrapping up I keepthinking about some of the times
when I've seen adults cometogether and play. You can think
about watching people doingcontact improv or things like
(50:02):
that. But I also, just for somereason, it's on my mind to share
about the way that my oldneighborhood Burch Avenue, here
in Durham Does, does stuff ingeneral, but Halloween in
particular, it is a realcommunity situation. There's a
potluck in the park. So there'sfood and community and
(50:22):
gathering. And then there's thiskind of playfulness of
celebrating kids running aroundin costumes. And everybody comes
out and greets each other andtalks to each other. And it's
this real playful moment ofconnection. There's a scavenger
hunt, people decorate theiryards with whatever they they've
got around, decorate with. Somepeople go all out, I may
(50:43):
possibly have been one of thosepeople at some point in time,
which will probably be notsurprising to you at all, a big
surprise.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:53):
Leading the pack over there on Burch
Ave.
Larissa Parson (50:56):
I don't know, there are people who have even
better decorations. But youknow, just kind of getting that
sense of this is how we wecreate a better world is by
creating opportunities forpeople to play together. And to
enjoy being together.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (51:14):
Yeah, I don't know if I'm going to
remember that, to write thatdown to use in a social media
post. But it is so fabulous. Soeveryone pause and listen to
that. Maybe just pause andrewind 30 seconds and listen to
that last bit from Larissa thatI'm sure she did not write down.
And now you all can get it. Butit will also be in the
(51:35):
transcript. So that will save usall. This is beautiful.
So let's close with what we'regoing to be eating this week.
Speaking of play one of mybiggest favorite most forms of
play, I love to cook and bake.
But I also love to eat as weknow. Do you want to go first?
You want me to go first?
Larissa Parson (51:50):
I'm okay with going first if you want. Right?
Okay. So one of the ways that Iplay is I have a book club with
two of my friends. We don't talkabout books. And that may not...
we do sometimes talk aboutbooks, we talked about what
we've been reading, we don'thave like a particular book club
focus. But what we always do inBook Club is eat. So we got
(52:12):
together last weekend. And wewere texting all day, like what
should we have to eat? Whatshould we have to eat? And we
decided on like a charcuterieplatter and some salad and some
of this and some of that. Andeveryone's like, I got this, I
got this, I got this. And it'slike, what can I bring? I can
bring dessert. So I went, youknow, to Whole Foods, not like a
(52:35):
fancy fancy bakery. But I pickedup a pecan pie, and key lime
pie. And I took them. And therewere three of us. And there are
two full sized pies. And I gaveour host you know, a quarter or
a half of one of the pies. I waslike, please take this; I can't
eat all this pie. But I've beeneating pie all week. Like you
know, just when I'm you know,when it's afternoon tea time,
(52:56):
have some pie. Before bed, havesome pie. After the second
breakfast, have some pie. It'sbeen amazing. I'm just so
delighted by it. And I'm reallydone with these two pies. But
thankfully, next week, it'll besweet potato pie. So it'll be a
totally different experience.
Yeah, yeah. How about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (53:19):
I am a big fan of pie. And a big fan of t
is book club. The more I hear aout it, the more I'm thin
ing "I need to start a book club. But it's like a book and food
club. Like I need that kind of tat that ratio, which seems to b
a very positive ratio, but whatver your ratio is, that's the
atio that I want for my bookpie club. That's my only crit
(53:40):
ria. I don't even care what we rad. No, that's not comp
etely true.
Okay, so what am I eating? Okay,so I am going to California to
see my siblings and my dad and Iwill be in the midst of some
really incredible food. It'salways really, really good,
(54:02):
whatever I'm having is alwaysreally delicious. I'm very, very
lucky. But also Thanksgiving isnext week and I -- for all of
the problematic pieces of thisholiday--one of the things that
I do love about it is being withother people and enjoying food
around a table
Larissa Parson (54:22):
yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (54:22):
...that we have made together or at least
participated in the bringingtogether. I actually make a
really good stuffing. I thinkit's actually my dental hygenist
And that'sgot some spinach. And you can
Larissa Parson (54:33):
Yeah.
at one point that it was a"dressing". She's from the
south. So she said if it's it'sstuffing if it goes in the
turkey, and it's dressing if itdoes not. And I'm still like
this has maybe been three orfour years and she's told me
make it with a faux sausage,which is probably what I'll do,
this and I'm still kind of likewow, that's kind of marveling to
me. So I make the dressingbecause it's not going in the
because we've got some veggiefolks there. And, gosh, some
turkey and now I know and it'sfabulous. It's got a couple of
(54:55):
different kinds of cheese-I know my cheeses like I kn
w my own name- it's got somebeautiful Reggiano parmesan and
ike a good plentiful cupsomething. It has some Pecorino
romano. So it's got Reggiano ad Pecorino. Pecorino by
tself is just not as strong, buReggiano together with Pecorino
is just beautiful.
(55:27):
eggs and you bake it a littlebit salt and pepper and a little
bit of olive oil. It'sdelicious. It's my
grandmother's, my father'smother's, recipe that I've made
for a really long time. And atsome point--and I'm going to try
this again, we tried it once andit was a flop huge flop--but
this is a stuffing for ravioli.
So this used to be her raviolistuffing, and then it everyone
loved it so much, Larissa, thatwe've incorporated into
(55:49):
different holidays. So yeah,it's absolutely fantastic. Knock
on wood, it's still gonna begood. Because I just haven't
made it a year, we'll see. Butit's something I love to eat.
And I'm really looking forwardto.
That soundsdelicious. It's so funny. I grew
up on Stovetop, so I waslistening to you talk about
spinach, and I was like, thatsounds so elaborate and
(56:13):
fascinating. Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Cool. Well, I'm excited for youto tell me all about how that
goes. I expect a text at at aminimum, if not a phone call.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (56:24):
Yes, yes.
Yes.
Larissa Parson (56:27):
And we just want to thank you all for listening.
Please share Wondermine withyour friends, write us a review,
help other folks find us. And...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (56:40):
And, in between episodes, you can find
us on Instagram@Wonderminepodcast. Thank you so
much for being with us and wewill talk to you again soon.
Larissa Parson (56:55):
Thank you.
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