December 2, 2021 • 53 mins
Elizabeth and Larissa consider what alternatives to binary thinking might look like. And we added an episode ahead of this one, which is why we say it's Episode 5 when it's really episode 6. We hope you enjoy!
Wayward by Dana Spiotta (bookshop)
These Bones Are Not My Child by Toni Cade Bambara
(Divorcing) White Supremacy Culture
Binary thinking: https://www.whitesupremacyculture.info/eitheror--the-binary.html
Anna Sweeny, dietitian @DieticianAnna on Instagram
https://www.wholeliferd.com/#welcome
Kiese Laymon in conversation with Tressie McMillan Cottom on The Ezra Klein Show.
Hear To Slay episode, “Fat is Not a Feeling,” when Tressie McMillan Cottom and Roxane Gay talk to Julia Turschen
These Bones Are Not My child by Toni Cade Bambara (bookshop)
The Body Is Not An Apology, Sonya Renee Taylor (bookshop)
Your Body Is Not An Apology, Sonya Renee Taylor (bookshop)
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:00):
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson.
I'm a joy coach, a movementteacher, a mom to twins, a bit
of a hippie. And this week, I'mreally sad that The Great
British Baking Show's currentseason is over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:15):
And I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a
parent partner, rape survivorand writer, I talk and write
about trauma, relationships andculture. And I want to be
someone who is sewing their ownclothes. I've been thinking
about this over the past week.
But really at this point, I onlyjust collect fabric. So that's
that's the tidbit about me thatyou might not have known.
Larissa Parson (00:37):
I love that because I also have had that
want to be someone who sewstheir own clothes. I have
collected fabric and even cutout patterns and then failed to
sew them. I can relate to that.
So, with that, we're the duobehind this limited series
podcast called Wondermine.
Wondermine is the limited seriesfeminist podcast that looks at
(00:58):
the "wow" and the "how" ofliving a life rooted in
curiosity, community andliberation. If you've ever felt
like something was missing, oryou were missing something, this
is the podcast for you. And aswe do every week, let's start
out with what we're reading. Sodo you want to go first, or do
you want me to go first?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:19):
Um, why don't you go first?
Larissa Parson (01:21):
Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:22):
Are you okay with that?
Larissa Parson (01:22):
Yeah, I'm fine with that. So, this week I have
been reading, I was gonna sayslogging through. It's not so
much of a slog. It's anemotional slog through Dana
Spiotta's 'Wayward', which is anovel about aging, and the
(01:45):
female body. And a little bitabout social justice in a kind
of like sideways way, but reallyabout about some questions of
things like gentrification. Andthere's also a lot written from
the perspective of theprotagonist's teenage daughter
and sort of her own coming intoherself as a woman. And I think
(02:12):
what's complex and difficultabout this book is I can relate
to a lot of the things that arehappening in it. And I also
can't relate to a lot of them.
So she's a 53 year old, whitewoman who's lived in a suburb
and is separating from herhusband and chooses to buy a
house in the middle of Syracusein a neighborhood that is not
(02:32):
quite even gentrifying yet. Andit's kind of fascinating. What I
can relate to a lot is themiddle of the night ruminations.
Like she's waking up at three inthe morning. And then she's just
like, Oh, I'm awake. And notgoing back to sleep. And her
mind is going in circles. And Ican really relate to that.
What's hard is that she is in areally rough, emotional place.
(02:56):
And it's just hard to sit withall of those feelings and listen
to them and watch them happenand unfold on the page and watch
her behavior just spiraling inso many ways. And then her
daughter is also spiraling inother ways. And so it's complex.
It's interesting. I'm going tofinish it, though I thought
about giving up. That's what I'mreading.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:18):
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I
want to I want to hear a littlebit more about that. Maybe
offline, because I'm, I'mcurious as to the giving up
piece.
Larissa Parson (03:28):
Do you want me to say more?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:30):
I feel like we have time. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm just because I'm alwaysinterested in why people put
down a book and you talked acouple of weeks ago that you
were like, you know, readinganother book about like this,
whatever, this white guy andkept going with it and whatever.
And I'm always just like,curious as to where those
Larissa Parson (03:44):
You know, I think what it is right now is
that as we're sliding into thedark of winter, I need more
lighthearted fiction than whatI'm reading. Also, the new
Outlander book has just come outand I NEED TO READ IT. And so,
I'm slogging through this book.
So I'm feeling a lot of kind of,like, commitment to finishing
(04:07):
the book. I got it from thelibrary, so I'm gonna finish it
before I send it back. And thenthere's also this desire to read
something else. I want somethingfun. I've been reading pretty
heavy books for the last fewweeks. And now I would like a
fluffy romance novel, please. Ihave a whole list of them ready
to go. But I'm not there yet. Soit's that feeling that's making
(04:31):
me like I just want to get tothe thing. And then I know that
you know what, it's okay. Likemy dopamine system could
probably use a little moredowning before I go to the easy,
yummy, pleasure-filled fluff.
And I'd like to be really clear.
I love fluff and will read itall day. But you know, it's okay
for my fiction reading to notall be pleasure reading or to be
(04:55):
pleasure reading thischallenging in a different way.
I guess it's maybe way I put it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:02):
Yeah, I feel like maybe there is
something in a future episode onon reading and how we read and
what we pick up and what weread, because I feel like I've
learned a lot from you on whatyou choose to read. And I can't
even tell you when I've pickedup like a fluffy fiction book.
Except if I mean, I really don'twant to, I don't want to
categorize genre this way. Ourclosest I would get would be
some of the young adult likeLand of Stories books that I've
(05:25):
been reading, which my daughterhas been reading, and I just
don't pick it up. But I'll tellyou when you talked about
romance that I was really atwhere I was in some use books or
somewhere Oh, when we were atthe beach like a long time ago.
No, no, no, no November. And Iwas looking for one of the
Jackie Collins books that I readwhen I was like, maybe in my
late teens, early 20s, aboutthis character that I love,
(05:47):
Lucky Sant'Angelo. And I waslike, really these books and I
couldn't find them. It was sobonkers. But anyway, she's super
fluffy. Well, not fluffy. Butthat felt that felt as close to
fluffy as I Bama restless, soit's not fair. But it's kind of
similar.
Larissa Parson (06:00):
Yeah, I totally get that. I mean, I hate to also
designate a whole genre asfluffy because it's really not.
And I have found that as I'veread more and more romance, that
there's so much depth, andthere's ... we're totally not
gonna spend this whole episodetalking about books, y'all. I'll
(06:25):
tie it into our topic, and thenwe'll hear about what you're
reading. So, today we're gonnatalk about yes/and we're gonna
talk about binaries and stuff.
And I think that callingsomething fluffy or not fluffy
is a very binary way of talkingabout it, when in fact, what I
have loved about reading romanceand fantasy, is that because
these are imaginary worlds, weget to make it the way we want
(06:46):
it to be. And so most of theromance and stuff I'm reading
has these really strong women ortrans or non binary
protagonists, and has thesereally, you know, consent full,
right people relationships, andthese really clear wrong people
relationships, and it's reallynice. So that's why I like
(07:06):
reading that stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:08):
Oh, that is such a nice tie in. My
reading right now is going totie in a little bit to how I
think how you're feeling aboutthe way workbook way labored.
Yeah. Um, and so I have beenreading for many months now on
and off. Toni Cade Bambara, Ithink is how you say her last
name. Her what has been calledher magnum opus, These Bones Are
(07:30):
Not My Child. And I amstruggling with it in a really
big way, I've put it down andI've come back to it, it's very,
very long. So but that's notnecessarily the challenge. It is
looking at the if for those whodon't are not familiar with this
book. The main character ispretty much I would say a single
mom, and she's in Atlanta andher son is disappeared. And it's
(07:54):
basically 1970. I'm sorry, Ithink it's 1980, maybe summer of
1980. And this is in the midstof what we now know of as the
Atlanta Child Murders. And sothere's, it's, it's very
emotionally heavy, but it's alsoincredibly dense. So when the
main character Zala, is lookingfor her son, there's a lot of
there's a lot of desperationthat feels it can be really
(08:17):
emotionally exhausting to sortof even just to witness it, but
also the language that she'susing, she's in an empty or like
a deserted lot and lookingaround at the pieces of garbage
there. And the every singlepiece is very finely detailed.
And so there's a lot oflanguage, there's a lot of
emotion, there's a lot of a lotof words, nothing feels like
(08:40):
superfluous or too much likesometimes I'm reading and I want
someone to have more heavilyedited what I'm reading and
that's not the case here at all.
It's just a lot. I took it withme on my trip in hopes of
getting through more of it and Ijust I'm struggling with it. So
that is what I'm reading andthat is what I probably will be
reading for a while maybe on andoff because it's it's it's a lot
(09:04):
to kind of go through.
Larissa Parson (09:08):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. That it's
a lot and listening to youdescribe it, I'm thinking that
I'm probably not going to pickit up at least not this year.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:20):
Oh, no.
And I really this is this is Imean I think I said this in an
Instagram post. This has beensuch a challenging that's not
even the right word for it.
Mediocre word for a year but thefiction that has come out this
year has bowled me over I meanI've talked about it nonstop I
feel like here and other peoplehave to but wow it's there's a
(09:42):
lot there's there's someincredible, incredible books I
feel like I read all of them.
But not all of them but a lot ofthem and so this is this is not
this is not new. The author haslong passed and but it's still
it's one that I've been wantingto read and will continue to go
through but not not movingquickly through it.
Larissa Parson (09:59):
No. And that's okay. Alright, on our books
That's right. Stay tuned forbonus episode and books if you
episode that we'll be releasingsometime in 2022...
like this,We could talk about what it
means to put down a book andpick up a book again,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:21):
all day long. Um, but let's get back on
track. Yep. And let's say thisis our fifth episode, we're
going to be talking about howYes, And is a way to break free
of binary thinking. And binarythinking is one of those
characteristics of whitesupremacy culture, and it shows
(10:43):
up everywhere. But first, let'sget ourselves grounded into the
right headspace for ourconversation.
Larissa Parson (10:52):
So for today's moment of grounding, I'd like
you to pause wherever you are tonotice your breath. So you can
do this when you're driving,this is one of my favorite
things, because you can do itanywhere. And you're just going
to notice the shape that yourbody makes when you inhale. And
(11:12):
exhale. And you're just gonnakeep noticing that for a few
more moments. And you can getcurious while you're noticing.
What are you noticing? And youcan stop when you're ready or
(11:34):
you can keep noticing. I'm goingto ask you a few more questions
to ruminate on. Did youimmediately change the way that
you were breathing when youstarted noticing your breath?
And what's up with that? So nowyou can totally let go.
Elizabeth has brought us rightback into the room. I love it.
(11:57):
How did that landed your body?
Why did that make you laugh? Iam very curious.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:02):
Because you're like, what's up with
that? I'm like, did I and thenand then I'm like, Oh, I'm not
sure I'm doing this right? Waita second. No, I'm okay and how
I'm doing. And I can concentrateElizabeth on what Larissa is
saying right now. Okay, you cando this? And you can answer this
(12:25):
question. Um, so what I will sayafter all the now you hear all
of my internal dialogue, I loveit. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, I'm
Mike a little heart. I'm, I'm inLarissa knows this because we
talked about this beforehand,but I'm standing and I don't
normally stand. So one thingthat I was curious or wondering
(12:46):
about was how this would be if Iwas sitting and what I would
notice if I was sitting asopposed to standing. My shape. I
feel like my belly changed, likemy belly got bigger or more
inflated. I don't know, that'sprobably not maybe that's not
the right kind of breathing orwhatever, quote unquote, right.
But that's something I noticedabout what might how my body was
(13:06):
changing as I was listening tomy breathing or noticing my
breathing, I guess.
Larissa Parson (13:11):
Hmm, I love that. So, the reason that I love
all of your internal thoughts,like would this be different if
I were sitting? Am I doing this?
Right? Oh, my belly is moving.
Is that the right way tobreathe? All of those things.
That's such a good place to juststart looking at how we start
doubting ourselves, how wewonder if we're right or wrong,
(13:31):
how we think there's only oneway to be doing something. And
it happens so easily when weturn our attention to our bodies
that our first thought is, oh,I'm doing this wrong. No, you're
just noticing, there's no wrongway to notice. But immediately,
we're like, is this the rightway to breathe? Yeah. And, I
(13:52):
would say that, especially folkswho have done any sort of like
core pelvic floor rehab, we'llespecially get into that thought
process. Because it's one of thethings that we work on a lot. So
anyway, this episode, isn'tgoing to assert that there's no
such thing as right and wrong,because I think there is wrong
(14:14):
stuff. And there is right stuff.
There are right people and thereare wrong people, for you.
Because that right person couldthat wrong person could be the
right person for someone else.
But more often, the right choicethat we make, or the right thing
to do is kind of more in a grayarea, where the right way to
(14:36):
think about something is more ina gray area. It's not always
really clearly binary. Sosometimes we get really clear
answers. Like again, you knowwho your right people are. You
know that you like key lime pie,or I know that I like key lime
pie. But so much more oftenthings are much more murky.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:56):
And I think they can get really murky
for For us when we start to lookoutside ourselves, and look into
like what the world is saying,okay, so even if we look at a
dialogue, like what's going onright now with the pandemic, so
we hear a lot of messages thatcan feel confusing, at least for
(15:18):
me. And cloudy, because we'rejust totally not sure what what
is what is right or what weshould be listening to, or how
much weight we should givesomething. So we hear things
like the pandemic is never goingto end like this is our new
normal. But we're also not toldto like cancel our holiday
plans, right. So this is, sothere's that. But there's also
(15:39):
travel restrictions going on nowwe're knowing that we can't
travel to certain countries andcertain countries can't come to
us. But we know that things likemental health is important. So
travel is important, because wedo want to see people that we
haven't seen in a very long timefor some of us. We know that we
can't rely on herd immunity,because that's now beyond us.
(15:59):
But vaccines are the answer. Butare they the answer? So there's
a lot kind of going on there interms of messages and what to
what, how to how to parsethrough all of this. And so this
is where we come back to Yes.
And as a possible solution. AndI think I want to do put it out
there as a possible solution.
(16:19):
This may not feel right for somepeople to adapt in this moment.
For whatever reason. We're, Ithink that Larissa and I are
kind of putting this out thereas one tool that you can use as
our, our joy drops or rightpeople or any of these things
that we've talked about so far.
So we'll talk a little bit morein detail about why yes, is a
solution. Maybe for some of you,and how and why it we can get
there in a moment.
Larissa Parson (16:42):
Yeah, so I think it's helpful to set up the
problem a little bit. And Ithink you've done such a good
job of articulating what a lotof us are feeling and
considering as we continuethrough this pandemic, the never
ending, apparently pandemic. AndI think that's a really good
(17:04):
example of one of those placeswhere it's very hard to have a
clear yes and no abouteverything. And where a lot of
us are really working through alot of decision fatigue because
everything is a calculation ofrisk. And so at what point do we
throw up our hands? What do wedo in this kind of situation? So
(17:25):
to step away from the pandemic,a little bit, but also I mean,
let's be real, everythingintersects with systems of
oppression. And so I want to saythat actually, it's definitely
part of the problem here. Sosystems of oppression say that
there's one answer. There's oneclear answer, and they are often
(17:50):
relying on the idea that there'sa rational dictum that we can
follow so the idea that like,well, if you just stay home
forever, the pandemic will end.
Or let's throw it into adifferent, a different place.
People keep getting sick, so younever need to wear masks. We all
have different belief systemsinto our belief systems are
(18:15):
going to play into that kind ofeither or thinking a lot of the
time. And so this is what TemaOkun and others describe as
binary thinking. So many peopletalk about this, I just really
like, pull this out of herwebsite,
whitesupremacyculture.info,because it's a really nice,
clear description of whathappens when binary thinking
(18:37):
runs wild, or when we actuallytake binary thinking to its
extreme. So in this excerpt,Tema is speaking to the
difficulty that arose when folkstook the old brief list. So this
website is built from this longlist. It's a short list, but
this list has been for a longtime shared among people with
the characteristics of whitesupremacy culture, and it's
(19:00):
really helpful, as far as justgetting a sense of like, what
are these systemic things thatare getting in the way of our
liberation? So because peoplewere sharing this list, they
were actually weaponizing itagainst each other in social
justice spaces. So one of thethings that she says here is to
(19:22):
like explain why do we need toexpand this list and make it
more nuanced and make it more ofa yes, and. "Building justice is
complex and nuanced. While whitesupremacy culture likes to
pretend we can reduce everythingto a simple either / or. So we
are called to navigate thecomplexity of our conditioning,
(19:44):
without losing sight of theinherent humanity in each of
us." And that's each of us, allof us. Right? liberation is not
liberation without everyone. Andso If you're listening, and
you're thinking, 'Well, thatsounds kind of interesting. And
why aren't you elaborating on itmore?' I recommend that you go
(20:05):
look at the whole sub page onbinary thinking. And we'll link
to that in the show notes.
Because you will see yourself,you'll see other people, and
you'll see it quite clearly thatwe're all influenced by this
kind of thinking. So when we're,like summing this up, binary
thinking tells us there's oneright answer. People are good or
(20:26):
bad. XYZ is the answer. There'sone way to do it. And then,
what's the solution? Oh, wait,we have more to say about that.
Actually, I think, Elizabeth, Ithink you were gonna say more.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:39):
Yes, yes.
So I think the, I thinksomething I want to point out
here, and this can be especiallytrue for trauma survivors, who
often feel like they're the onlyone feeling a certain way is it
can feel really good for peopleto choose a side, to commit to
something to stake a claim in abelief system or on a team, you
know, loosely, used loosely, youknow, when we do that we find
(21:03):
solidarity with others, right?
We all of a sudden, we're partof a group. And we're right
there with them, we getaffirmation from them, that
we've made the quote unquote,right choice. We're in community
with a group. And as socialbeings, this can feel really
attractive and really soothing.
And, and I was thinking, too,about, you know, those of us who
were not chosen first to be on ateam as a child at a playground
(21:25):
or in a PE class, it can feelgood, we don't we don't. That's
a whole other episode. We don'tforget a lot of those pieces,
right? Or forget how it feels.
Right? Like I let me just say,we don't forget how that feels
as someone who has not chosenearly on in a team. And so it
feels it can feel really good tous to like, Okay, I'm going to
(21:47):
make the choice. Now. I'm gonnabe with these people. Yeah,
Larissa Parson (21:51):
I was not chosen first, either. This is why we're
friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:55):
This is exactly that and coffee and
food.
Larissa Parson (21:59):
And books. So, yeah, it's totally a soothing
and comforting to feel likeyou're part of the crowd. Being
part of the in group makes usfeel safe. Because when you
weren't chosen first, or whenyou were chosen last, let's be
more real about it. When youwere chosen last, that did not
(22:21):
feel safe. There's nothing safeabout that. Once you get chosen,
you're like, I have a team. Sothat's a really real feeling.
The feeling of not being safe ofnot being part of the team. And
the feeling that being on theteam being in the group is safe.
(22:42):
But like sometimes I wonder ifthat's not so real. And I think
it's really hard to talk to myyou know, 10 year old self about
being picked last for thekickball team. But as adults,
when we're faced with what feelslike a binary choice, sometimes
(23:02):
we get the feeling that there'sanother way, but we're not sure
what it is. Because it might bethe right choice in terms of
what our community says. And Ithink I see this play out a lot.
I've seen this plan a lot in thepandemic and people's families.
That's just one of the reallyclear places where you see this
happening where your body issaying, not so sure. But your
(23:25):
community is saying no, this isthe way. And so when our bodies
kind of give us this not so suremessage, we might call it
intuition. Or maybe our valuesare saying otherwise, maybe it's
coming from a place where we'vereally thought about this. And
this is what we believe in. Andwe're kind of shocked that our
group doesn't believe the thingwe believe. Maybe it's something
(23:48):
we can't quite put our fingeron. So it's not always really
rational all the time, thatfeeling. Sometimes we want to
feel like we want to givesomeone else a chance. So that
maybe goes back to that wholeidea of liberation is for all of
us. Or we want to do somethingthat just feels more joyful than
whatever the thing is, that issupposed to be the right thing
(24:10):
to do. Like, you know, going tobed early and not staying up all
night reading books.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:17):
tempting as that is. Yes. So there's also
a lot of really interestingresearch around this. But I feel
like the bottom line that weneed to sort of say here is that
most of the time on the everydaydecisions that we're making,
we're not choosing the rationalright thing. You know, if we
did, we would never quit the jobthat had the pension, we would
(24:38):
always continue on to do likethe higher ed piece of whatever
we were supposed to do that wasprojected for us early on. We
would never get divorced. Wewould never start a small
business and leave academia forstarting a small business with
public goods. You know, we oftenmake decisions based on how we
feel the circumstances thatwe're in. Right intuition or
(25:01):
maybe what our values lead usto. And so we do all of this,
despite the pressures fromsystems of oppression, thinking,
that constantly drills into uswhat's right, quote, unquote,
air quotes, again, reasonable orrational, so like staying with
that job, for example. But itcan take a lot emotionally for
us and of course, a lot of timeto, to get us to that place of
(25:24):
what is literally choosingourselves because of the endless
messaging around what we shoulddo. So the answer, then is, yes.
And acknowledging this Yes, andthe some really powerful things
for us. One is that despiteliving in a capitalist society,
which values perfection, excuseme, production and profit over
(25:47):
all other things, we are human,we are not machines. So as
humans, we can't ever beperfect. And if perfection is
not possible, then binariescan't work, right? The Yes, and
also allows us an opportunityinto our authentic self, who we
are on the inside. And this isnot something that white
(26:09):
supremacy, culture, capitalismor patriarchy really care about.
So we get very few chances tolearn or maybe relearn who we
are and what really matters tous. The Yes, and is also a
pause. It's a deep breath in.
pauses are really powerfultools. But like your right
(26:31):
people, Joy drops or ticklegames, they're not valued by the
world that we live in. So wedon't get to experience the
power of a pause as often as wemight. So those are some some
thinking around. Yes. And
Larissa Parson (26:49):
I love all of this. So the bottom line here,
is that yes, and gives us thespace we need to acknowledge
that life is more complex thanthe systems we live live in tell
us it is. So I was thinkingabout, can we get into some more
(27:11):
concrete examples? I feel likewe've talked a little bit about
pandemic stuff as a yes andarea. But I think if we just
play with a couple more, itmight be even more clear. And
yeah, I think that's all I'mgonna say about that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:23):
Okay, so here's one from my own life. So
I have one child. And early on,I realized, and I'm the oldest
of four, early on, I realized Iwanted to know her schools and
know her teachers, and be ableto do pick up and drop off. And
those were things that wereimportant to me, as someone
(27:43):
who's the oldest child, whosometimes got lost in the mix,
who didn't have some of thatthose pieces shared specifically
with her. But just admitting tothis desire to have this
relationship, but also valuevalue, a piece of child rearing,
perhaps is the right word. Justit really feels uncomfortable.
(28:06):
It feels like I'm not living upto my potential, like I've a
master's degree, shouldn't I bedoing something high powered and
high paying, it feels like a copout, honestly, of some sorts
just to be able to say that. Sothere's like a piece of that.
And we can, I can talk a littlebit more about that.
Larissa Parson (28:22):
I can so relate to having a master's degree.
This is always a good place toacknowledge that not everybody
has the choice to make thischoice. And so, I would guess
(28:43):
that knowing you that's alsopart of that feeling of it's a
cop out, I should be doingsomething, making more money so
I could give money, etc.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:50):
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So in my family
early on, we agreed that I'd bethat primary parent, I have a
desire to be that person who,okay, when schools canceled or
when there's a last minute thingor there's, there's volunteers
needed for this activity, that Iwould be that main person. And
that would mean then as theprimary parents that then I
(29:13):
would work part time. Okay, so Icould do more of those things
that really felt important tome. And so this trade off is, of
course, that I don't bring in afull time salary, right? Like I
don't work to my potential orwhatever that would be. I'm not
immersed in a kind of likebusiness or corporate life. I
don't have a network ofcolleagues. So there's a lot of
trade offs, but probably thebiggest one that's most visible
(29:36):
to most identified to others,perhaps is that idea like that.
I don't bring in a full timesalary. So the yes and for me,
works fine for my family worksfine right now. Yes. It isn't
working for me in this moment.
And I may want to do somethingdifferent in the future.
Larissa Parson (29:55):
Yeah. So it's like, it's okay for now. That's
the yes. And it feels like thereare, and there are a bunch of
(30:21):
external factors that make youwonder whether that's okay. Is
it okay to live a life wherethis is what your primary
occupation is? It's not sewingyour own clothes. And I feel
like things like livelihood,like not bringing in a full time
salary. Or, let's say, startingyour own business where you
(30:46):
don't pay yourself very well.
You know, those kinds of thingsare often things where choices
feel narrower, because we allneed money in this system. But
so, I like that example. Andwe're just going to do this the
(31:06):
whole episode, right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:07):
Yes, great.
Larissa Parson (31:08):
And what about other kinds of decisions that
are harder to make, becausethey're intertwined with maybe
other parts of intersectionalcomplexities? So the idea that
we get in Sonya Renee Taylor's'The Body Is Not An Apology',
and in also a million othertexts around body liberation, I
(31:31):
will say is that we're giventhis ideal, right? If you're
white, cis, thin, able bodied,wealthy, all of those things,
and probably some more stuff toanything that's not those things
is not good.
Elizabeth M. Johnso (31:47):
Absolutely.
And I feel like I want to saythat it's actually worse than
not good. Anything else is bad.
So not good can mean okay, orfine. But really, what we're
told is that if we are not thosepieces that you just rattled
pieces of identity that you justrattled off this white sis able
bodied, wealthy, maybe Englishspeaking or a native born to the
(32:09):
US, whatever, then we are bad.
You know that who we are is bad.
And we are bad.
Larissa Parson (32:15):
Yeah, and then, like making decisions based on
that, it's totally, we'realready starting from a no.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:23):
And and let me just let me add in this
piece of trauma survivor, right,because this is not this is the
piece. For many of us, wealready go into whatever risk
situation or relationshipalready thinking that we are bad
or not worthy or guilty in someway.
Larissa Parson (32:41):
Yes. Oh, my gosh, yes. So important to make
note of that. And let's include,let's include that particular
angle here. So with this nextbit, if we start asserting that
all bodies are good bodies, allbodies, then we have to grapple
with some really difficult ideasthat make that binary thinking
(33:03):
really difficult to continuewith. So, for example, I have
read a lot of writing in thelast few years, from folks who
contextualize things like weightgain, saying, "Hey, if you
gained weight DURING A GLOBALPANDEMIC," in all caps, "it's
(33:24):
okay." Sorry, you can't see myhand over my face here.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:32):
But, Larissa's hand is over her face,
right?
Larissa Parson (33:35):
Face palming! Even that contextualization is
speaking in a binary, likesaying it's okay to gain weight
during a pandemic implies thatit's not okay to gain weight
other times. It takes away thereality that bodies change,
(33:56):
circumstances change, our bodiesrespond to circumstances,
whether that's a broken leg or aglobal pandemic, or just being
tired. Our bodies are nevergoing to be able bodied through
our whole lives. Our bodies arenever going to be the same size
through our whole lives. Theychange. So, is it surprising if
(34:19):
your body changes during aglobal pandemic? No. And it's
okay if your body changesoutside of the pandemic too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:32):
Yeah, I think this is a really good
example that will bring it homefor pretty much anyone who is
aware that they have a body. Sothis is there's a lot and also I
do want to sort of, you know,point out here that once again,
we're bringing in something andnot kind of delving into it too
deeply. But there are so manypeople will make them in the
show notes. I'm just thinkingalso of like, you know, Anna
(34:54):
Sweeney, who's talked a lotabout this very recently on
Instagram and we can add herinto the show notes but so
there's there's out Obviouslyother resources out there, if
this is feeling like, oh, I wantto learn more. But this exactly
what Larissa is saying, is areally another really important
aspect of it. Yes. And it'sfluid. It allows for space
(35:15):
change circumstances beyond ourcontrol circumstances of our
control. So all of those pieces.
So, Larissa, let's get to thispiece around how we embrace the
yes and more.
Larissa Parson (35:28):
So, how do we embrace the yes, and more? It's
by noticing binary thinking andtrying to weed it out. I think
we really have to get good atnoticing it. And we have to
practice that noticing, justlike we were noticing our
breath, and noticing the waythat we were thinking about all
of that, at the beginning ofthis episode. We have to notice
(35:54):
when we're engaging in either/orthinking. Sonya Renee Taylor
wrote a workbook that came outthis year that accompanies 'The
Body Is Not An Apology'. It'scalled 'Your Body Is Not An
Apology', and she has thisreally lovely set of exercises
in there. So if you have themeans to get hold of the book, I
(36:16):
highly recommend playing withthis workbook as a way of really
looking into where you seeeither/or thinking coming up.
But one of the things that shesays in there is "either/or
thinking limits the fullness" -this is just like, right with
what you were saying, Elizabeth- it limits the fullness "of our
human potential and clouds ourradical self love vision, it
(36:37):
makes it so hard for us to seehow all bodies are good bodies,"
if we're thinking in either/or.
Yeah. So one of the exercisesshe offers in the workbook, is
to look not just to kind of lookat where you're engaging in
either or thinking and binarythinking--she gives a bunch of
prompts for that. But the onethat I really love, is that she
(36:58):
asks us to look at the languagethat we use to describe things,
or tendencies, or thoughts orchoices or whatever. Words like
"never, always, only, everytime, mostly, rarely," those
kinds of words can be signpoststhat we're engaging in binary
thinking. So to make that alittle more concrete, I feel
(37:20):
like that's very concrete. ButI'll make it more concrete by
giving you an example. I findthis coming up a lot in my own
habits around making decisionsin my business. I tend to think
now or never, when I considersigning up for a course, or
hiring somebody to do things orsomething like that. And let's
be honest, that the way thatthings are marketed, that kind
(37:43):
of like leans into that sense ofurgency, and that binary
thought, and there are manypodcasts out there that you can
listen to about that particulartendency. But if I talk to one
of my right people, and I say,I'm thinking about signing up
for this course, what do youthink? they might ask me, 'Why
now?' Because my right peopleknow that I don't have time, or
(38:04):
that I do have these skills. Orthat there are lots of different
things. Why does that have to benow? And then that pause breaks
the cycle and opens up space forme to consider that this may be
the right thing for a futureversion of me. But it isn't what
I need right now. And then wecan so then we can take that and
(38:29):
apply it to things that are alittle bit more mundane. I feel
like this is a very mundane kindof conversation for me in my
head actually. This should Itake this course? Should I do
this thing? But even thinkingabout things like the people I
live with, things like my kidsnever pick up their dishes.
That's binary thinking too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (38:54):
Yeah. And I think that so I want to track
back to something for a second.
And, and that is the piece thatyou mentioned about how we are
marketed to as individuals andas business owners. And it's,
it's, I really want to say thatthere are there are often as we
(39:14):
have learned, really predatorypieces kind of capitalizing on
this binary thinking. So youneed to do this now. Or at what
cost if you don't or chooseyourself, some of these
messages. I mean, even themessage of choose yourself is
binary thinking right? Youchoose yourself or you don't, I
mean, that's awful. So pieceslike that. I think that we are
(39:39):
especially susceptible to all ofus whether we are in business or
whether we are just simplypurchasing something on the
internet or looking for lookingfor a birthday gift. So noticing
is a big thing here in terms ofhow we embrace you know, I think
this is this. It's reallyinteresting to me that when we
think about the tools that weget to A lot of it boils down to
very accessible pieces likenoticing, which may not be super
(40:04):
fast or sexy. But there it is.
And so noticing for me alsocomes up with feelings. So when
I think about like, likehopelessness or anger, like
frustration, sadness, even bigthings, you know, like whatever
grief or shame like i Those areoften things that come up for me
(40:24):
when I'm in binary thinking, I'meither an ally, or I'm not.
Right, because silence isviolence. I gotta be speaking up
speaking up speaking up. I'msuccessful in my work. Or I'm
not. If I'm not making a lot ofmoney that I'm definitely not.
Right. So things like how wefeel and the messages that we
give ourselves, which are, ofcourse messages that are coming
(40:46):
down from the systems ofoppression that we live, work
and play in. Because we can'tescape those are really big
things also to notice. Thefeelings that we have. Any thing
that rings especially true foryou, Larissa?
Larissa Parson (40:59):
I love every bit of that. And I feel like it's
just true. Like, those binariesreally get us with that in the
feelings. In "all the feels" as,Yes, they were saying 10 years
ago. And it feels bad. It feelsyucky. We don't like how it
(41:24):
feels. And then the solutionthat the binary thinking gives
us is, how do we get rid of abad feeling? We do the thing
that we're told will make thebad feeling go away. Buy the
thing!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:36):
and fix it fast. Fix It Fast. Yeah. And I
want to say that, you know,these these feelings that feel
bad, hopelessness, anger,frustration, grief, shame,
whatever, they are not bad.
Right? So that's it. That's animportant this can be really
hard, you know, shout out to allthe trauma survivors who are out
(41:57):
there saying, you know,muddling, muddling through but
really, feeling immersed in somereally strong hard emotions,
that we have the you know, Ifeel hopeless, or I feel shame.
So I am those things, you know,so that is a really I just want
to sort of make thatacknowledgement as the side.
Yeah, yeah.
Larissa Parson (42:19):
I just want to pick up on that idea that
because you feel a thing, youare a thing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:26):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (42:27):
That's ... you say it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:31):
Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know if
you're, I don't know if you'regoing where I'm going here, but
maybe we are we're goingtogether. This is making me
think of the--which I didn'tlisten to whole thing--So just
disclosure there. This theepisode of Hear to Slay, where
Tressie and Roxane talk to JuliaTurshen. And the title is "Fat
is Not a Feeling." Yes. AndJulia Turshen is like, "Wait,
(42:54):
that's not a feeling," you know,and she's having this great
conversation and I think I don'tknow Tressie or Roxane,, one of
them is like "fat actually isn'ta feeling." But we've been
drilled into our minds to thinkthat it is a feeling so side
note. We'll have that in the inthe show notes. But that's also
kind of a piece. So feelings,but I also want to go to
behavior. Yeah. So Kiese Laymonsaid, Something just kind of
(43:20):
broke my heart open as I waslistening to this on the plane
ride back, and he's talking withTressie McMillan cotton on the
Ezra Klein show. So Tressie isguest, was guest hosting for
Ezra Klein while he's onpaternity leave, I think. And
Kiese says, "When I don't readand write a lot, I'm just a
terror to be around." And I waslike, Oh, my gosh, this he said
(43:47):
this and I was like, Wait,that's true for me too! Can that
... be a thing?! And I just I,anyone who follows me on
Instagram now so much I worshipthis man, because I think he's
just so, he's vulnerable. Andthis conversation is so
powerful. If you've not listenedto this, especially if you're a
writer, do any kind of writing.
Go and listen to this, it willbe in the show notes also. But I
read a ton. When I was inCalifornia--I just came back a
(44:10):
couple of days ago--I read abook on the way over a book when
I was there, I finished anotherbook on the way back leave tons
of reading, not as much writing.
But gosh, I was so pleasant tobe around. Yes, there's vacation
and all these other pieces. I'mnot I'm not working in that
traditional sense. But whenthings feel tight, when I feel
boxed in when I am in the depthsof scarcity thinking or I feel
(44:33):
cornered, or I feel rushed, or Ifeel micromanage. These are all
real big red flags for me. I canbe the queen of hearts like "off
with their heads!" I am a terrorto be around. I'll mindlessly
scroll more, I will pick up mynails more. I do less intuitive
eating. So how we are acting andnoticing that in addition to
(44:59):
noticing how we're feeling canbe another big red flag for
binary thinking.
Larissa Parson (45:03):
Oh my gosh, yes.
I love that. I mean, I lovethat, but I'm sad. You know?
Like, I love that, and I relateto it. And then that makes me
feel like, oh gosh, what are mybehaviors? They're the same.
They're not the exact same, Idon't pick my nails. But yeah,
boy "off with their heads" allday long when I feel boxed in.
And when I feel like I don'thave the time to do the things
(45:25):
that I need to do to take careof myself, what nourishes me,
connecting with people, or likeall of those things, reading
something that I really likereading, all of that kind of
stuff. It really, reallyresonates. And I think that that
the lack of those things drivesme into more binary thinking and
behaving for sure. Then I startthinking always and never all
(45:47):
the time. So, we know how tofind the binaries. We look at
our feelings, we look at ouractions, we look at the words
that we're using to describewhat is happening around us. And
then get curious to embrace theyes, and. When we embrace the
(46:09):
yes, and, we expand thepossibilities that are available
to us. So instead of yes, no, adecision becomes a not right
now. Maybe it becomes a no, butit's a no, because. You have a
real clarity around that. Or wecan imagine even richer
possibilities than that. I feellike when you were speaking
(46:31):
earlier, about choosingourselves, like how we get into
this, this binary idea of chooseyourself, spend the money.
Yes/and lets us choose ourselvesmore authentically. We choose
what is really right for us inthis moment, in these
circumstances, right now. And wedo it with a pause and
(46:56):
deliberation and a real sense ofclarity and peace around it. And
I think one other way I wouldsay this, is that with a yes,
and, we can - and I'mparaphrasing Kelly Diels here -
we can dwell with one foot inthe world as it is and one foot
(47:18):
in the world that we want tolive in. Because, and. Because,
yes. Because they go together.
And it is hard sometimes tobridge those two places. But
it's where most of us are livingour lives anyway. And it is nice
(47:41):
to be able to say yes, and toboth of those.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:51):
I have nothing to add there. That's a
beautiful sum up and I love thisconversation. Do you-- I'm
stealing your line.
Larissa Parson (48:01):
Oh, well, I was just thinking before we get to
what we're eating, which is sucha yes, and category for us.
Really. I was just thinkingabout like, if I went I think
one concrete example ofembracing Yes. And instead of
like looking at the binaries. Itmight be something like Yes,
(48:26):
everything is hard right now,AND I like my coffee. It can be
so simple. It doesn't have tobe, you know, huge. It can be
super, super simple. Okay, nowwe can talk about what we're
eating. So I'm gonna go first.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:47):
Great.
Larissa Parson (48:50):
So here's my plan. Um, let's see, what am I
eating this week? I have had alot of good food this week. I
cooked for the what feels likethe first time in months. Yeah,
I made homemade burgers. Andthey were really good. Like, I
put spices in there. Lots ofblack pepper turns out. So that
(49:15):
was awesome. And- I am gonnayes, and all the way through. I
am looking forward to going topick up my CSA today because I
was in preparation for thisepisode. I checked what I
ordered, which I never do. And Iwas like, I didn't order myself
any treats, but she always hasextra treats. So I'm looking
(49:38):
forward to picking something outrandomly that is available when
I get there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (49:44):
This feels to me like the book slash food
club you're in. I'm always like,wait, what CSA is. That's not
mine. How come I don't have thatthing over there that you have I
want it to but that's also some. I'm thinking what's my
treat? Where's my treat? Howcome I didn't get one for
myself? So I'm feeling reallyglad for you that you can. You
(50:07):
didn't get one, that you canorder yourself one when you get
there. That's fantastic.
Larissa Parson (50:10):
Yeah, she just gets a few extra things from
Strong Arm every week. And so Iknow that when I show up, I'll
be like, Oh, what do you havetoday? And if she doesn't have
anything, I'm going to the storetoo. So I will pick myself up
something.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:22):
we'll make it work.
Larissa Parson (50:24):
I need my sugar.
I need the treat. Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:28):
Um, so I've just come off a week of
fan. Fantastic eating. Asalways, this is why I cannot
live there full time becausethere's just no way I would feel
it afford how I eat when I amthere. Because it's just so
amazing. So well, I'm lookingforward to keeping things very
simple. In the coming weeks, wehave a bread delivery from Ninth
(50:49):
Street bakery. They have abeautiful CSA, CSA, the
beautiful bread, it's my breadsubscription service. That's
kind of what I want. And so lastweek, we got one that my husband
put in the freezer and I tookout a couple of days ago when I
came back last week, we got areally beautiful like polenta
loaf, and you always get abaguette. So you get a baguette
and then their special loaf ofthe week or whatever they're
(51:10):
doing. So that actually shows uptomorrow it is delivered. And I
love that, like my favorite.
It's a surprise to which I love.
So I think what I'm going to dois channeling back to Ooh, it
may have been the first episodethat we did when you were
talking about the cheese thatyour mom sent you. And so I have
(51:33):
some really beautiful apples.
And so I'm going to like a tangoapple that I really like. So I'm
going to go and get some cheesethat I love. Find something like
I like a cambazola or like acreamy blue and have that with
whatever bread I'm going to bethat's gonna be dropped off at
my house and some really, reallydelicious apples. I'm keeping it
simple in the coming in thecoming days since I've been
(51:55):
eating sort of in in fancy andbeautiful and complicated way.
So now I'm going going simplenext week.
Larissa Parson (52:05):
That sounds lovely. Now cheese is on my list
for a grocery shop thisafternoon. Thank you very much.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (52:16):
Um, so thank you to all of you for
being here. Please considersharing wonder mind with friends
or writing us a review thathelps other people find us.
Larissa Parson (52:27):
And until next time, you can follow us at
@wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson.
I'm a joy coach, a movementteacher, a mom to twins, a bit
of a hippie. And this week, I'mreally sad that The Great
British Baking Show's currentseason is over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:15):
And I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a
parent partner, rape survivorand writer, I talk and write
about trauma, relationships andculture. And I want to be
someone who is sewing their ownclothes. I've been thinking
about this over the past week.
But really at this point, I onlyjust collect fabric. So that's
that's the tidbit about me thatyou might not have known.
Larissa Parson (00:37):
I love that because I also have had that
want to be someone who sewstheir own clothes. I have
collected fabric and even cutout patterns and then failed to
sew them. I can relate to that.
So, with that, we're the duobehind this limited series
podcast called Wondermine.
Wondermine is the limited seriesfeminist podcast that looks at
(00:58):
the "wow" and the "how" ofliving a life rooted in
curiosity, community andliberation. If you've ever felt
like something was missing, oryou were missing something, this
is the podcast for you. And aswe do every week, let's start
out with what we're reading. Sodo you want to go first, or do
you want me to go first?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:19):
Um, why don't you go first?
Larissa Parson (01:21):
Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:22):
Are you okay with that?
Larissa Parson (01:22):
Yeah, I'm fine with that. So, this week I have
been reading, I was gonna sayslogging through. It's not so
much of a slog. It's anemotional slog through Dana
Spiotta's 'Wayward', which is anovel about aging, and the
(01:45):
female body. And a little bitabout social justice in a kind
of like sideways way, but reallyabout about some questions of
things like gentrification. Andthere's also a lot written from
the perspective of theprotagonist's teenage daughter
and sort of her own coming intoherself as a woman. And I think
(02:12):
what's complex and difficultabout this book is I can relate
to a lot of the things that arehappening in it. And I also
can't relate to a lot of them.
So she's a 53 year old, whitewoman who's lived in a suburb
and is separating from herhusband and chooses to buy a
house in the middle of Syracusein a neighborhood that is not
(02:32):
quite even gentrifying yet. Andit's kind of fascinating. What I
can relate to a lot is themiddle of the night ruminations.
Like she's waking up at three inthe morning. And then she's just
like, Oh, I'm awake. And notgoing back to sleep. And her
mind is going in circles. And Ican really relate to that.
What's hard is that she is in areally rough, emotional place.
(02:56):
And it's just hard to sit withall of those feelings and listen
to them and watch them happenand unfold on the page and watch
her behavior just spiraling inso many ways. And then her
daughter is also spiraling inother ways. And so it's complex.
It's interesting. I'm going tofinish it, though I thought
about giving up. That's what I'mreading.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:18):
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I
want to I want to hear a littlebit more about that. Maybe
offline, because I'm, I'mcurious as to the giving up
piece.
Larissa Parson (03:28):
Do you want me to say more?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:30):
I feel like we have time. Yeah. Yeah.
I'm just because I'm alwaysinterested in why people put
down a book and you talked acouple of weeks ago that you
were like, you know, readinganother book about like this,
whatever, this white guy andkept going with it and whatever.
And I'm always just like,curious as to where those
Larissa Parson (03:44):
You know, I think what it is right now is
that as we're sliding into thedark of winter, I need more
lighthearted fiction than whatI'm reading. Also, the new
Outlander book has just come outand I NEED TO READ IT. And so,
I'm slogging through this book.
So I'm feeling a lot of kind of,like, commitment to finishing
(04:07):
the book. I got it from thelibrary, so I'm gonna finish it
before I send it back. And thenthere's also this desire to read
something else. I want somethingfun. I've been reading pretty
heavy books for the last fewweeks. And now I would like a
fluffy romance novel, please. Ihave a whole list of them ready
to go. But I'm not there yet. Soit's that feeling that's making
(04:31):
me like I just want to get tothe thing. And then I know that
you know what, it's okay. Likemy dopamine system could
probably use a little moredowning before I go to the easy,
yummy, pleasure-filled fluff.
And I'd like to be really clear.
I love fluff and will read itall day. But you know, it's okay
for my fiction reading to notall be pleasure reading or to be
(04:55):
pleasure reading thischallenging in a different way.
I guess it's maybe way I put it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:02):
Yeah, I feel like maybe there is
something in a future episode onon reading and how we read and
what we pick up and what weread, because I feel like I've
learned a lot from you on whatyou choose to read. And I can't
even tell you when I've pickedup like a fluffy fiction book.
Except if I mean, I really don'twant to, I don't want to
categorize genre this way. Ourclosest I would get would be
some of the young adult likeLand of Stories books that I've
(05:25):
been reading, which my daughterhas been reading, and I just
don't pick it up. But I'll tellyou when you talked about
romance that I was really atwhere I was in some use books or
somewhere Oh, when we were atthe beach like a long time ago.
No, no, no, no November. And Iwas looking for one of the
Jackie Collins books that I readwhen I was like, maybe in my
late teens, early 20s, aboutthis character that I love,
(05:47):
Lucky Sant'Angelo. And I waslike, really these books and I
couldn't find them. It was sobonkers. But anyway, she's super
fluffy. Well, not fluffy. Butthat felt that felt as close to
fluffy as I Bama restless, soit's not fair. But it's kind of
similar.
Larissa Parson (06:00):
Yeah, I totally get that. I mean, I hate to also
designate a whole genre asfluffy because it's really not.
And I have found that as I'veread more and more romance, that
there's so much depth, andthere's ... we're totally not
gonna spend this whole episodetalking about books, y'all. I'll
(06:25):
tie it into our topic, and thenwe'll hear about what you're
reading. So, today we're gonnatalk about yes/and we're gonna
talk about binaries and stuff.
And I think that callingsomething fluffy or not fluffy
is a very binary way of talkingabout it, when in fact, what I
have loved about reading romanceand fantasy, is that because
these are imaginary worlds, weget to make it the way we want
(06:46):
it to be. And so most of theromance and stuff I'm reading
has these really strong women ortrans or non binary
protagonists, and has thesereally, you know, consent full,
right people relationships, andthese really clear wrong people
relationships, and it's reallynice. So that's why I like
(07:06):
reading that stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:08):
Oh, that is such a nice tie in. My
reading right now is going totie in a little bit to how I
think how you're feeling aboutthe way workbook way labored.
Yeah. Um, and so I have beenreading for many months now on
and off. Toni Cade Bambara, Ithink is how you say her last
name. Her what has been calledher magnum opus, These Bones Are
(07:30):
Not My Child. And I amstruggling with it in a really
big way, I've put it down andI've come back to it, it's very,
very long. So but that's notnecessarily the challenge. It is
looking at the if for those whodon't are not familiar with this
book. The main character ispretty much I would say a single
mom, and she's in Atlanta andher son is disappeared. And it's
(07:54):
basically 1970. I'm sorry, Ithink it's 1980, maybe summer of
1980. And this is in the midstof what we now know of as the
Atlanta Child Murders. And sothere's, it's, it's very
emotionally heavy, but it's alsoincredibly dense. So when the
main character Zala, is lookingfor her son, there's a lot of
there's a lot of desperationthat feels it can be really
(08:17):
emotionally exhausting to sortof even just to witness it, but
also the language that she'susing, she's in an empty or like
a deserted lot and lookingaround at the pieces of garbage
there. And the every singlepiece is very finely detailed.
And so there's a lot oflanguage, there's a lot of
emotion, there's a lot of a lotof words, nothing feels like
(08:40):
superfluous or too much likesometimes I'm reading and I want
someone to have more heavilyedited what I'm reading and
that's not the case here at all.
It's just a lot. I took it withme on my trip in hopes of
getting through more of it and Ijust I'm struggling with it. So
that is what I'm reading andthat is what I probably will be
reading for a while maybe on andoff because it's it's it's a lot
(09:04):
to kind of go through.
Larissa Parson (09:08):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. That it's
a lot and listening to youdescribe it, I'm thinking that
I'm probably not going to pickit up at least not this year.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:20):
Oh, no.
And I really this is this is Imean I think I said this in an
Instagram post. This has beensuch a challenging that's not
even the right word for it.
Mediocre word for a year but thefiction that has come out this
year has bowled me over I meanI've talked about it nonstop I
feel like here and other peoplehave to but wow it's there's a
(09:42):
lot there's there's someincredible, incredible books I
feel like I read all of them.
But not all of them but a lot ofthem and so this is this is not
this is not new. The author haslong passed and but it's still
it's one that I've been wantingto read and will continue to go
through but not not movingquickly through it.
Larissa Parson (09:59):
No. And that's okay. Alright, on our books
That's right. Stay tuned forbonus episode and books if you
episode that we'll be releasingsometime in 2022...
like this,We could talk about what it
means to put down a book andpick up a book again,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:21):
all day long. Um, but let's get back on
track. Yep. And let's say thisis our fifth episode, we're
going to be talking about howYes, And is a way to break free
of binary thinking. And binarythinking is one of those
characteristics of whitesupremacy culture, and it shows
(10:43):
up everywhere. But first, let'sget ourselves grounded into the
right headspace for ourconversation.
Larissa Parson (10:52):
So for today's moment of grounding, I'd like
you to pause wherever you are tonotice your breath. So you can
do this when you're driving,this is one of my favorite
things, because you can do itanywhere. And you're just going
to notice the shape that yourbody makes when you inhale. And
(11:12):
exhale. And you're just gonnakeep noticing that for a few
more moments. And you can getcurious while you're noticing.
What are you noticing? And youcan stop when you're ready or
(11:34):
you can keep noticing. I'm goingto ask you a few more questions
to ruminate on. Did youimmediately change the way that
you were breathing when youstarted noticing your breath?
And what's up with that? So nowyou can totally let go.
Elizabeth has brought us rightback into the room. I love it.
(11:57):
How did that landed your body?
Why did that make you laugh? Iam very curious.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:02):
Because you're like, what's up with
that? I'm like, did I and thenand then I'm like, Oh, I'm not
sure I'm doing this right? Waita second. No, I'm okay and how
I'm doing. And I can concentrateElizabeth on what Larissa is
saying right now. Okay, you cando this? And you can answer this
(12:25):
question. Um, so what I will sayafter all the now you hear all
of my internal dialogue, I loveit. Yeah. Thank you. Oh, I'm
Mike a little heart. I'm, I'm inLarissa knows this because we
talked about this beforehand,but I'm standing and I don't
normally stand. So one thingthat I was curious or wondering
(12:46):
about was how this would be if Iwas sitting and what I would
notice if I was sitting asopposed to standing. My shape. I
feel like my belly changed, likemy belly got bigger or more
inflated. I don't know, that'sprobably not maybe that's not
the right kind of breathing orwhatever, quote unquote, right.
But that's something I noticedabout what might how my body was
(13:06):
changing as I was listening tomy breathing or noticing my
breathing, I guess.
Larissa Parson (13:11):
Hmm, I love that. So, the reason that I love
all of your internal thoughts,like would this be different if
I were sitting? Am I doing this?
Right? Oh, my belly is moving.
Is that the right way tobreathe? All of those things.
That's such a good place to juststart looking at how we start
doubting ourselves, how wewonder if we're right or wrong,
(13:31):
how we think there's only oneway to be doing something. And
it happens so easily when weturn our attention to our bodies
that our first thought is, oh,I'm doing this wrong. No, you're
just noticing, there's no wrongway to notice. But immediately,
we're like, is this the rightway to breathe? Yeah. And, I
(13:52):
would say that, especially folkswho have done any sort of like
core pelvic floor rehab, we'llespecially get into that thought
process. Because it's one of thethings that we work on a lot. So
anyway, this episode, isn'tgoing to assert that there's no
such thing as right and wrong,because I think there is wrong
(14:14):
stuff. And there is right stuff.
There are right people and thereare wrong people, for you.
Because that right person couldthat wrong person could be the
right person for someone else.
But more often, the right choicethat we make, or the right thing
to do is kind of more in a grayarea, where the right way to
(14:36):
think about something is more ina gray area. It's not always
really clearly binary. Sosometimes we get really clear
answers. Like again, you knowwho your right people are. You
know that you like key lime pie,or I know that I like key lime
pie. But so much more oftenthings are much more murky.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:56):
And I think they can get really murky
for For us when we start to lookoutside ourselves, and look into
like what the world is saying,okay, so even if we look at a
dialogue, like what's going onright now with the pandemic, so
we hear a lot of messages thatcan feel confusing, at least for
(15:18):
me. And cloudy, because we'rejust totally not sure what what
is what is right or what weshould be listening to, or how
much weight we should givesomething. So we hear things
like the pandemic is never goingto end like this is our new
normal. But we're also not toldto like cancel our holiday
plans, right. So this is, sothere's that. But there's also
(15:39):
travel restrictions going on nowwe're knowing that we can't
travel to certain countries andcertain countries can't come to
us. But we know that things likemental health is important. So
travel is important, because wedo want to see people that we
haven't seen in a very long timefor some of us. We know that we
can't rely on herd immunity,because that's now beyond us.
(15:59):
But vaccines are the answer. Butare they the answer? So there's
a lot kind of going on there interms of messages and what to
what, how to how to parsethrough all of this. And so this
is where we come back to Yes.
And as a possible solution. AndI think I want to do put it out
there as a possible solution.
(16:19):
This may not feel right for somepeople to adapt in this moment.
For whatever reason. We're, Ithink that Larissa and I are
kind of putting this out thereas one tool that you can use as
our, our joy drops or rightpeople or any of these things
that we've talked about so far.
So we'll talk a little bit morein detail about why yes, is a
solution. Maybe for some of you,and how and why it we can get
there in a moment.
Larissa Parson (16:42):
Yeah, so I think it's helpful to set up the
problem a little bit. And Ithink you've done such a good
job of articulating what a lotof us are feeling and
considering as we continuethrough this pandemic, the never
ending, apparently pandemic. AndI think that's a really good
(17:04):
example of one of those placeswhere it's very hard to have a
clear yes and no abouteverything. And where a lot of
us are really working through alot of decision fatigue because
everything is a calculation ofrisk. And so at what point do we
throw up our hands? What do wedo in this kind of situation? So
(17:25):
to step away from the pandemic,a little bit, but also I mean,
let's be real, everythingintersects with systems of
oppression. And so I want to saythat actually, it's definitely
part of the problem here. Sosystems of oppression say that
there's one answer. There's oneclear answer, and they are often
(17:50):
relying on the idea that there'sa rational dictum that we can
follow so the idea that like,well, if you just stay home
forever, the pandemic will end.
Or let's throw it into adifferent, a different place.
People keep getting sick, so younever need to wear masks. We all
have different belief systemsinto our belief systems are
(18:15):
going to play into that kind ofeither or thinking a lot of the
time. And so this is what TemaOkun and others describe as
binary thinking. So many peopletalk about this, I just really
like, pull this out of herwebsite,
whitesupremacyculture.info,because it's a really nice,
clear description of whathappens when binary thinking
(18:37):
runs wild, or when we actuallytake binary thinking to its
extreme. So in this excerpt,Tema is speaking to the
difficulty that arose when folkstook the old brief list. So this
website is built from this longlist. It's a short list, but
this list has been for a longtime shared among people with
the characteristics of whitesupremacy culture, and it's
(19:00):
really helpful, as far as justgetting a sense of like, what
are these systemic things thatare getting in the way of our
liberation? So because peoplewere sharing this list, they
were actually weaponizing itagainst each other in social
justice spaces. So one of thethings that she says here is to
(19:22):
like explain why do we need toexpand this list and make it
more nuanced and make it more ofa yes, and. "Building justice is
complex and nuanced. While whitesupremacy culture likes to
pretend we can reduce everythingto a simple either / or. So we
are called to navigate thecomplexity of our conditioning,
(19:44):
without losing sight of theinherent humanity in each of
us." And that's each of us, allof us. Right? liberation is not
liberation without everyone. Andso If you're listening, and
you're thinking, 'Well, thatsounds kind of interesting. And
why aren't you elaborating on itmore?' I recommend that you go
(20:05):
look at the whole sub page onbinary thinking. And we'll link
to that in the show notes.
Because you will see yourself,you'll see other people, and
you'll see it quite clearly thatwe're all influenced by this
kind of thinking. So when we're,like summing this up, binary
thinking tells us there's oneright answer. People are good or
(20:26):
bad. XYZ is the answer. There'sone way to do it. And then,
what's the solution? Oh, wait,we have more to say about that.
Actually, I think, Elizabeth, Ithink you were gonna say more.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:39):
Yes, yes.
So I think the, I thinksomething I want to point out
here, and this can be especiallytrue for trauma survivors, who
often feel like they're the onlyone feeling a certain way is it
can feel really good for peopleto choose a side, to commit to
something to stake a claim in abelief system or on a team, you
know, loosely, used loosely, youknow, when we do that we find
(21:03):
solidarity with others, right?
We all of a sudden, we're partof a group. And we're right
there with them, we getaffirmation from them, that
we've made the quote unquote,right choice. We're in community
with a group. And as socialbeings, this can feel really
attractive and really soothing.
And, and I was thinking, too,about, you know, those of us who
were not chosen first to be on ateam as a child at a playground
(21:25):
or in a PE class, it can feelgood, we don't we don't. That's
a whole other episode. We don'tforget a lot of those pieces,
right? Or forget how it feels.
Right? Like I let me just say,we don't forget how that feels
as someone who has not chosenearly on in a team. And so it
feels it can feel really good tous to like, Okay, I'm going to
(21:47):
make the choice. Now. I'm gonnabe with these people. Yeah,
Larissa Parson (21:51):
I was not chosen first, either. This is why we're
friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:55):
This is exactly that and coffee and
food.
Larissa Parson (21:59):
And books. So, yeah, it's totally a soothing
and comforting to feel likeyou're part of the crowd. Being
part of the in group makes usfeel safe. Because when you
weren't chosen first, or whenyou were chosen last, let's be
more real about it. When youwere chosen last, that did not
(22:21):
feel safe. There's nothing safeabout that. Once you get chosen,
you're like, I have a team. Sothat's a really real feeling.
The feeling of not being safe ofnot being part of the team. And
the feeling that being on theteam being in the group is safe.
(22:42):
But like sometimes I wonder ifthat's not so real. And I think
it's really hard to talk to myyou know, 10 year old self about
being picked last for thekickball team. But as adults,
when we're faced with what feelslike a binary choice, sometimes
(23:02):
we get the feeling that there'sanother way, but we're not sure
what it is. Because it might bethe right choice in terms of
what our community says. And Ithink I see this play out a lot.
I've seen this plan a lot in thepandemic and people's families.
That's just one of the reallyclear places where you see this
happening where your body issaying, not so sure. But your
(23:25):
community is saying no, this isthe way. And so when our bodies
kind of give us this not so suremessage, we might call it
intuition. Or maybe our valuesare saying otherwise, maybe it's
coming from a place where we'vereally thought about this. And
this is what we believe in. Andwe're kind of shocked that our
group doesn't believe the thingwe believe. Maybe it's something
(23:48):
we can't quite put our fingeron. So it's not always really
rational all the time, thatfeeling. Sometimes we want to
feel like we want to givesomeone else a chance. So that
maybe goes back to that wholeidea of liberation is for all of
us. Or we want to do somethingthat just feels more joyful than
whatever the thing is, that issupposed to be the right thing
(24:10):
to do. Like, you know, going tobed early and not staying up all
night reading books.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:17):
tempting as that is. Yes. So there's also
a lot of really interestingresearch around this. But I feel
like the bottom line that weneed to sort of say here is that
most of the time on the everydaydecisions that we're making,
we're not choosing the rationalright thing. You know, if we
did, we would never quit the jobthat had the pension, we would
(24:38):
always continue on to do likethe higher ed piece of whatever
we were supposed to do that wasprojected for us early on. We
would never get divorced. Wewould never start a small
business and leave academia forstarting a small business with
public goods. You know, we oftenmake decisions based on how we
feel the circumstances thatwe're in. Right intuition or
(25:01):
maybe what our values lead usto. And so we do all of this,
despite the pressures fromsystems of oppression, thinking,
that constantly drills into uswhat's right, quote, unquote,
air quotes, again, reasonable orrational, so like staying with
that job, for example. But itcan take a lot emotionally for
us and of course, a lot of timeto, to get us to that place of
(25:24):
what is literally choosingourselves because of the endless
messaging around what we shoulddo. So the answer, then is, yes.
And acknowledging this Yes, andthe some really powerful things
for us. One is that despiteliving in a capitalist society,
which values perfection, excuseme, production and profit over
(25:47):
all other things, we are human,we are not machines. So as
humans, we can't ever beperfect. And if perfection is
not possible, then binariescan't work, right? The Yes, and
also allows us an opportunityinto our authentic self, who we
are on the inside. And this isnot something that white
(26:09):
supremacy, culture, capitalismor patriarchy really care about.
So we get very few chances tolearn or maybe relearn who we
are and what really matters tous. The Yes, and is also a
pause. It's a deep breath in.
pauses are really powerfultools. But like your right
(26:31):
people, Joy drops or ticklegames, they're not valued by the
world that we live in. So wedon't get to experience the
power of a pause as often as wemight. So those are some some
thinking around. Yes. And
Larissa Parson (26:49):
I love all of this. So the bottom line here,
is that yes, and gives us thespace we need to acknowledge
that life is more complex thanthe systems we live live in tell
us it is. So I was thinkingabout, can we get into some more
(27:11):
concrete examples? I feel likewe've talked a little bit about
pandemic stuff as a yes andarea. But I think if we just
play with a couple more, itmight be even more clear. And
yeah, I think that's all I'mgonna say about that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:23):
Okay, so here's one from my own life. So
I have one child. And early on,I realized, and I'm the oldest
of four, early on, I realized Iwanted to know her schools and
know her teachers, and be ableto do pick up and drop off. And
those were things that wereimportant to me, as someone
(27:43):
who's the oldest child, whosometimes got lost in the mix,
who didn't have some of thatthose pieces shared specifically
with her. But just admitting tothis desire to have this
relationship, but also valuevalue, a piece of child rearing,
perhaps is the right word. Justit really feels uncomfortable.
(28:06):
It feels like I'm not living upto my potential, like I've a
master's degree, shouldn't I bedoing something high powered and
high paying, it feels like a copout, honestly, of some sorts
just to be able to say that. Sothere's like a piece of that.
And we can, I can talk a littlebit more about that.
Larissa Parson (28:22):
I can so relate to having a master's degree.
This is always a good place toacknowledge that not everybody
has the choice to make thischoice. And so, I would guess
(28:43):
that knowing you that's alsopart of that feeling of it's a
cop out, I should be doingsomething, making more money so
I could give money, etc.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:50):
Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So in my family
early on, we agreed that I'd bethat primary parent, I have a
desire to be that person who,okay, when schools canceled or
when there's a last minute thingor there's, there's volunteers
needed for this activity, that Iwould be that main person. And
that would mean then as theprimary parents that then I
(29:13):
would work part time. Okay, so Icould do more of those things
that really felt important tome. And so this trade off is, of
course, that I don't bring in afull time salary, right? Like I
don't work to my potential orwhatever that would be. I'm not
immersed in a kind of likebusiness or corporate life. I
don't have a network ofcolleagues. So there's a lot of
trade offs, but probably thebiggest one that's most visible
(29:36):
to most identified to others,perhaps is that idea like that.
I don't bring in a full timesalary. So the yes and for me,
works fine for my family worksfine right now. Yes. It isn't
working for me in this moment.
And I may want to do somethingdifferent in the future.
Larissa Parson (29:55):
Yeah. So it's like, it's okay for now. That's
the yes. And it feels like thereare, and there are a bunch of
(30:21):
external factors that make youwonder whether that's okay. Is
it okay to live a life wherethis is what your primary
occupation is? It's not sewingyour own clothes. And I feel
like things like livelihood,like not bringing in a full time
salary. Or, let's say, startingyour own business where you
(30:46):
don't pay yourself very well.
You know, those kinds of thingsare often things where choices
feel narrower, because we allneed money in this system. But
so, I like that example. Andwe're just going to do this the
(31:06):
whole episode, right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:07):
Yes, great.
Larissa Parson (31:08):
And what about other kinds of decisions that
are harder to make, becausethey're intertwined with maybe
other parts of intersectionalcomplexities? So the idea that
we get in Sonya Renee Taylor's'The Body Is Not An Apology',
and in also a million othertexts around body liberation, I
(31:31):
will say is that we're giventhis ideal, right? If you're
white, cis, thin, able bodied,wealthy, all of those things,
and probably some more stuff toanything that's not those things
is not good.
Elizabeth M. Johnso (31:47):
Absolutely.
And I feel like I want to saythat it's actually worse than
not good. Anything else is bad.
So not good can mean okay, orfine. But really, what we're
told is that if we are not thosepieces that you just rattled
pieces of identity that you justrattled off this white sis able
bodied, wealthy, maybe Englishspeaking or a native born to the
(32:09):
US, whatever, then we are bad.
You know that who we are is bad.
And we are bad.
Larissa Parson (32:15):
Yeah, and then, like making decisions based on
that, it's totally, we'realready starting from a no.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:23):
And and let me just let me add in this
piece of trauma survivor, right,because this is not this is the
piece. For many of us, wealready go into whatever risk
situation or relationshipalready thinking that we are bad
or not worthy or guilty in someway.
Larissa Parson (32:41):
Yes. Oh, my gosh, yes. So important to make
note of that. And let's include,let's include that particular
angle here. So with this nextbit, if we start asserting that
all bodies are good bodies, allbodies, then we have to grapple
with some really difficult ideasthat make that binary thinking
(33:03):
really difficult to continuewith. So, for example, I have
read a lot of writing in thelast few years, from folks who
contextualize things like weightgain, saying, "Hey, if you
gained weight DURING A GLOBALPANDEMIC," in all caps, "it's
(33:24):
okay." Sorry, you can't see myhand over my face here.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:32):
But, Larissa's hand is over her face,
right?
Larissa Parson (33:35):
Face palming! Even that contextualization is
speaking in a binary, likesaying it's okay to gain weight
during a pandemic implies thatit's not okay to gain weight
other times. It takes away thereality that bodies change,
(33:56):
circumstances change, our bodiesrespond to circumstances,
whether that's a broken leg or aglobal pandemic, or just being
tired. Our bodies are nevergoing to be able bodied through
our whole lives. Our bodies arenever going to be the same size
through our whole lives. Theychange. So, is it surprising if
(34:19):
your body changes during aglobal pandemic? No. And it's
okay if your body changesoutside of the pandemic too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:32):
Yeah, I think this is a really good
example that will bring it homefor pretty much anyone who is
aware that they have a body. Sothis is there's a lot and also I
do want to sort of, you know,point out here that once again,
we're bringing in something andnot kind of delving into it too
deeply. But there are so manypeople will make them in the
show notes. I'm just thinkingalso of like, you know, Anna
(34:54):
Sweeney, who's talked a lotabout this very recently on
Instagram and we can add herinto the show notes but so
there's there's out Obviouslyother resources out there, if
this is feeling like, oh, I wantto learn more. But this exactly
what Larissa is saying, is areally another really important
aspect of it. Yes. And it'sfluid. It allows for space
(35:15):
change circumstances beyond ourcontrol circumstances of our
control. So all of those pieces.
So, Larissa, let's get to thispiece around how we embrace the
yes and more.
Larissa Parson (35:28):
So, how do we embrace the yes, and more? It's
by noticing binary thinking andtrying to weed it out. I think
we really have to get good atnoticing it. And we have to
practice that noticing, justlike we were noticing our
breath, and noticing the waythat we were thinking about all
of that, at the beginning ofthis episode. We have to notice
(35:54):
when we're engaging in either/orthinking. Sonya Renee Taylor
wrote a workbook that came outthis year that accompanies 'The
Body Is Not An Apology'. It'scalled 'Your Body Is Not An
Apology', and she has thisreally lovely set of exercises
in there. So if you have themeans to get hold of the book, I
(36:16):
highly recommend playing withthis workbook as a way of really
looking into where you seeeither/or thinking coming up.
But one of the things that shesays in there is "either/or
thinking limits the fullness" -this is just like, right with
what you were saying, Elizabeth- it limits the fullness "of our
human potential and clouds ourradical self love vision, it
(36:37):
makes it so hard for us to seehow all bodies are good bodies,"
if we're thinking in either/or.
Yeah. So one of the exercisesshe offers in the workbook, is
to look not just to kind of lookat where you're engaging in
either or thinking and binarythinking--she gives a bunch of
prompts for that. But the onethat I really love, is that she
(36:58):
asks us to look at the languagethat we use to describe things,
or tendencies, or thoughts orchoices or whatever. Words like
"never, always, only, everytime, mostly, rarely," those
kinds of words can be signpoststhat we're engaging in binary
thinking. So to make that alittle more concrete, I feel
(37:20):
like that's very concrete. ButI'll make it more concrete by
giving you an example. I findthis coming up a lot in my own
habits around making decisionsin my business. I tend to think
now or never, when I considersigning up for a course, or
hiring somebody to do things orsomething like that. And let's
be honest, that the way thatthings are marketed, that kind
(37:43):
of like leans into that sense ofurgency, and that binary
thought, and there are manypodcasts out there that you can
listen to about that particulartendency. But if I talk to one
of my right people, and I say,I'm thinking about signing up
for this course, what do youthink? they might ask me, 'Why
now?' Because my right peopleknow that I don't have time, or
(38:04):
that I do have these skills. Orthat there are lots of different
things. Why does that have to benow? And then that pause breaks
the cycle and opens up space forme to consider that this may be
the right thing for a futureversion of me. But it isn't what
I need right now. And then wecan so then we can take that and
(38:29):
apply it to things that are alittle bit more mundane. I feel
like this is a very mundane kindof conversation for me in my
head actually. This should Itake this course? Should I do
this thing? But even thinkingabout things like the people I
live with, things like my kidsnever pick up their dishes.
That's binary thinking too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (38:54):
Yeah. And I think that so I want to track
back to something for a second.
And, and that is the piece thatyou mentioned about how we are
marketed to as individuals andas business owners. And it's,
it's, I really want to say thatthere are there are often as we
(39:14):
have learned, really predatorypieces kind of capitalizing on
this binary thinking. So youneed to do this now. Or at what
cost if you don't or chooseyourself, some of these
messages. I mean, even themessage of choose yourself is
binary thinking right? Youchoose yourself or you don't, I
mean, that's awful. So pieceslike that. I think that we are
(39:39):
especially susceptible to all ofus whether we are in business or
whether we are just simplypurchasing something on the
internet or looking for lookingfor a birthday gift. So noticing
is a big thing here in terms ofhow we embrace you know, I think
this is this. It's reallyinteresting to me that when we
think about the tools that weget to A lot of it boils down to
very accessible pieces likenoticing, which may not be super
(40:04):
fast or sexy. But there it is.
And so noticing for me alsocomes up with feelings. So when
I think about like, likehopelessness or anger, like
frustration, sadness, even bigthings, you know, like whatever
grief or shame like i Those areoften things that come up for me
(40:24):
when I'm in binary thinking, I'meither an ally, or I'm not.
Right, because silence isviolence. I gotta be speaking up
speaking up speaking up. I'msuccessful in my work. Or I'm
not. If I'm not making a lot ofmoney that I'm definitely not.
Right. So things like how wefeel and the messages that we
give ourselves, which are, ofcourse messages that are coming
(40:46):
down from the systems ofoppression that we live, work
and play in. Because we can'tescape those are really big
things also to notice. Thefeelings that we have. Any thing
that rings especially true foryou, Larissa?
Larissa Parson (40:59):
I love every bit of that. And I feel like it's
just true. Like, those binariesreally get us with that in the
feelings. In "all the feels" as,Yes, they were saying 10 years
ago. And it feels bad. It feelsyucky. We don't like how it
(41:24):
feels. And then the solutionthat the binary thinking gives
us is, how do we get rid of abad feeling? We do the thing
that we're told will make thebad feeling go away. Buy the
thing!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:36):
and fix it fast. Fix It Fast. Yeah. And I
want to say that, you know,these these feelings that feel
bad, hopelessness, anger,frustration, grief, shame,
whatever, they are not bad.
Right? So that's it. That's animportant this can be really
hard, you know, shout out to allthe trauma survivors who are out
(41:57):
there saying, you know,muddling, muddling through but
really, feeling immersed in somereally strong hard emotions,
that we have the you know, Ifeel hopeless, or I feel shame.
So I am those things, you know,so that is a really I just want
to sort of make thatacknowledgement as the side.
Yeah, yeah.
Larissa Parson (42:19):
I just want to pick up on that idea that
because you feel a thing, youare a thing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:26):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (42:27):
That's ... you say it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:31):
Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know if
you're, I don't know if you'regoing where I'm going here, but
maybe we are we're goingtogether. This is making me
think of the--which I didn'tlisten to whole thing--So just
disclosure there. This theepisode of Hear to Slay, where
Tressie and Roxane talk to JuliaTurshen. And the title is "Fat
is Not a Feeling." Yes. AndJulia Turshen is like, "Wait,
(42:54):
that's not a feeling," you know,and she's having this great
conversation and I think I don'tknow Tressie or Roxane,, one of
them is like "fat actually isn'ta feeling." But we've been
drilled into our minds to thinkthat it is a feeling so side
note. We'll have that in the inthe show notes. But that's also
kind of a piece. So feelings,but I also want to go to
behavior. Yeah. So Kiese Laymonsaid, Something just kind of
(43:20):
broke my heart open as I waslistening to this on the plane
ride back, and he's talking withTressie McMillan cotton on the
Ezra Klein show. So Tressie isguest, was guest hosting for
Ezra Klein while he's onpaternity leave, I think. And
Kiese says, "When I don't readand write a lot, I'm just a
terror to be around." And I waslike, Oh, my gosh, this he said
(43:47):
this and I was like, Wait,that's true for me too! Can that
... be a thing?! And I just I,anyone who follows me on
Instagram now so much I worshipthis man, because I think he's
just so, he's vulnerable. Andthis conversation is so
powerful. If you've not listenedto this, especially if you're a
writer, do any kind of writing.
Go and listen to this, it willbe in the show notes also. But I
read a ton. When I was inCalifornia--I just came back a
(44:10):
couple of days ago--I read abook on the way over a book when
I was there, I finished anotherbook on the way back leave tons
of reading, not as much writing.
But gosh, I was so pleasant tobe around. Yes, there's vacation
and all these other pieces. I'mnot I'm not working in that
traditional sense. But whenthings feel tight, when I feel
boxed in when I am in the depthsof scarcity thinking or I feel
(44:33):
cornered, or I feel rushed, or Ifeel micromanage. These are all
real big red flags for me. I canbe the queen of hearts like "off
with their heads!" I am a terrorto be around. I'll mindlessly
scroll more, I will pick up mynails more. I do less intuitive
eating. So how we are acting andnoticing that in addition to
(44:59):
noticing how we're feeling canbe another big red flag for
binary thinking.
Larissa Parson (45:03):
Oh my gosh, yes.
I love that. I mean, I lovethat, but I'm sad. You know?
Like, I love that, and I relateto it. And then that makes me
feel like, oh gosh, what are mybehaviors? They're the same.
They're not the exact same, Idon't pick my nails. But yeah,
boy "off with their heads" allday long when I feel boxed in.
And when I feel like I don'thave the time to do the things
(45:25):
that I need to do to take careof myself, what nourishes me,
connecting with people, or likeall of those things, reading
something that I really likereading, all of that kind of
stuff. It really, reallyresonates. And I think that that
the lack of those things drivesme into more binary thinking and
behaving for sure. Then I startthinking always and never all
(45:47):
the time. So, we know how tofind the binaries. We look at
our feelings, we look at ouractions, we look at the words
that we're using to describewhat is happening around us. And
then get curious to embrace theyes, and. When we embrace the
(46:09):
yes, and, we expand thepossibilities that are available
to us. So instead of yes, no, adecision becomes a not right
now. Maybe it becomes a no, butit's a no, because. You have a
real clarity around that. Or wecan imagine even richer
possibilities than that. I feellike when you were speaking
(46:31):
earlier, about choosingourselves, like how we get into
this, this binary idea of chooseyourself, spend the money.
Yes/and lets us choose ourselvesmore authentically. We choose
what is really right for us inthis moment, in these
circumstances, right now. And wedo it with a pause and
(46:56):
deliberation and a real sense ofclarity and peace around it. And
I think one other way I wouldsay this, is that with a yes,
and, we can - and I'mparaphrasing Kelly Diels here -
we can dwell with one foot inthe world as it is and one foot
(47:18):
in the world that we want tolive in. Because, and. Because,
yes. Because they go together.
And it is hard sometimes tobridge those two places. But
it's where most of us are livingour lives anyway. And it is nice
(47:41):
to be able to say yes, and toboth of those.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:51):
I have nothing to add there. That's a
beautiful sum up and I love thisconversation. Do you-- I'm
stealing your line.
Larissa Parson (48:01):
Oh, well, I was just thinking before we get to
what we're eating, which is sucha yes, and category for us.
Really. I was just thinkingabout like, if I went I think
one concrete example ofembracing Yes. And instead of
like looking at the binaries. Itmight be something like Yes,
(48:26):
everything is hard right now,AND I like my coffee. It can be
so simple. It doesn't have tobe, you know, huge. It can be
super, super simple. Okay, nowwe can talk about what we're
eating. So I'm gonna go first.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:47):
Great.
Larissa Parson (48:50):
So here's my plan. Um, let's see, what am I
eating this week? I have had alot of good food this week. I
cooked for the what feels likethe first time in months. Yeah,
I made homemade burgers. Andthey were really good. Like, I
put spices in there. Lots ofblack pepper turns out. So that
(49:15):
was awesome. And- I am gonnayes, and all the way through. I
am looking forward to going topick up my CSA today because I
was in preparation for thisepisode. I checked what I
ordered, which I never do. And Iwas like, I didn't order myself
any treats, but she always hasextra treats. So I'm looking
(49:38):
forward to picking something outrandomly that is available when
I get there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (49:44):
This feels to me like the book slash food
club you're in. I'm always like,wait, what CSA is. That's not
mine. How come I don't have thatthing over there that you have I
want it to but that's also some. I'm thinking what's my
treat? Where's my treat? Howcome I didn't get one for
myself? So I'm feeling reallyglad for you that you can. You
(50:07):
didn't get one, that you canorder yourself one when you get
there. That's fantastic.
Larissa Parson (50:10):
Yeah, she just gets a few extra things from
Strong Arm every week. And so Iknow that when I show up, I'll
be like, Oh, what do you havetoday? And if she doesn't have
anything, I'm going to the storetoo. So I will pick myself up
something.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:22):
we'll make it work.
Larissa Parson (50:24):
I need my sugar.
I need the treat. Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:28):
Um, so I've just come off a week of
fan. Fantastic eating. Asalways, this is why I cannot
live there full time becausethere's just no way I would feel
it afford how I eat when I amthere. Because it's just so
amazing. So well, I'm lookingforward to keeping things very
simple. In the coming weeks, wehave a bread delivery from Ninth
(50:49):
Street bakery. They have abeautiful CSA, CSA, the
beautiful bread, it's my breadsubscription service. That's
kind of what I want. And so lastweek, we got one that my husband
put in the freezer and I tookout a couple of days ago when I
came back last week, we got areally beautiful like polenta
loaf, and you always get abaguette. So you get a baguette
and then their special loaf ofthe week or whatever they're
(51:10):
doing. So that actually shows uptomorrow it is delivered. And I
love that, like my favorite.
It's a surprise to which I love.
So I think what I'm going to dois channeling back to Ooh, it
may have been the first episodethat we did when you were
talking about the cheese thatyour mom sent you. And so I have
(51:33):
some really beautiful apples.
And so I'm going to like a tangoapple that I really like. So I'm
going to go and get some cheesethat I love. Find something like
I like a cambazola or like acreamy blue and have that with
whatever bread I'm going to bethat's gonna be dropped off at
my house and some really, reallydelicious apples. I'm keeping it
simple in the coming in thecoming days since I've been
(51:55):
eating sort of in in fancy andbeautiful and complicated way.
So now I'm going going simplenext week.
Larissa Parson (52:05):
That sounds lovely. Now cheese is on my list
for a grocery shop thisafternoon. Thank you very much.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (52:16):
Um, so thank you to all of you for
being here. Please considersharing wonder mind with friends
or writing us a review thathelps other people find us.
Larissa Parson (52:27):
And until next time, you can follow us at
@wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
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