December 21, 2021 • 50 mins
In this episode Elizabeth and Larissa wrap up and recap the themes of this series of podcasts. If we could sum it up in one word: titration.
Mentioned in this episode:
Matrix, Lauren Groff (bookshop)
Go Tell The Bees That I Am Gone, Diana Gabaldon (bookshop)
Allegory of the Cave from Plato’s Republic
Pleasure Activism, adrienne maree brown (bookshop)
The Body Is Not An Apology, Sonya Renee Taylor (bookshop)
Nuvotaco Durham
Cocoa Cinnamon coffee in Durham
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:04):
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson,
I'm a joy coach, a movementteacher, a mom to twins, a bit
of a hippie and I am so readyfor my time off next week.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:17):
I feel that one. I am Elizabeth M
Johnson. I'm a parent partner,rape survivor and writer. I talk
and write about trauma,relationships and culture. And I
believe in magic, everyday magiclike fairies and finding items
that were misplaced. But alsobig magic like Santa Claus.
Larissa Parson (00:35):
I love that so much. Magic. Magic. We are the
duo behind this limited seriespodcast called Wondermine.
Wondermine is a limited series,feminist podcast that looks at
the "wow" and the "how" ofliving a life rooted in
curiosity, community andliberation. If you've ever felt
(00:58):
like something was missing, oryou were missing something, this
is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:03):
And this is our final episode. We're not
going to get into any specifictopic per se, but rather offer a
wrap-up. A small but powerfulgift wrapped box of sorts of
some of the key ideas we talkedabout this season. But first, as
we always do, we're gonna chatabout what we're reading.
Larissa, can you start us off?
Larissa Parson (01:26):
Yeah, so I finally got to start Diana
Gabaldon's latest Outlandernovel. And it's been maybe three
years since the last time I readone of these, this is the... I
want to say it's the ninth orthe 10th book. I'm really
terrible at keeping track ofthose things. And so I'm having
(01:46):
to completely re-familiarizemyself with the context and the
characters. And she's reallygood at that, and really good at
weaving it in. So that you don'tgo oh my gosh, who was this
person? Who is that person?
Like, you get these littlereminders. And that's really,
really helpful. And I reallyjust love revisiting that world.
So I'm really enjoying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:05):
That's a great, that's a great
recommendation. And it's, Ithink it's a good sometimes it's
a good practice for me to goback and like remind myself
about who these key characterswere in books in series, you
know, when they update, I havenot read any of those. But I
know everyone, a lot of people Iknow, we're fans. A couple of
books showed up in my libraryqueue that I had put on hold
were finally available. And oneof them is Matrix by Lauren
(02:29):
Groff. This is her second novel,and her first one was Fates and
Furies. I think recommendationcame to me via those mini book
(02:52):
reviews in the New Yorker. So Iam maybe 10 pages into it. So
very, very early in. And a youngwoman named Marie has been sent
to this priory in like 1152. Andthat's where she's going to live
out her days. And she's beensent there by... I want to say
(03:14):
Eleanor of Aquitaine. So it is ahistorical fiction, which I
haven't read in a while. And I'ma big fan of already, I'm really
liking this character of Marie.
And I'm hoping that stays withme because I have a hard time
staying with books where I don'tfeel a lot for any of the
characters I'm encountering.
Which sometimes is why I don'tfinish reading the book. So
(03:36):
excited for this.
Larissa Parson (03:37):
Cool. That's one of the books on my to read list.
Oh, my very long to read list.
So I'm really curious to see howyou like it. And definitely,
it's kind of been moving up anddown my list, but it's early
2022. And we can talk about it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:52):
Okay, great. Um, Larissa, do you want
to lead us in a groundingexercise before our
conversation?
Larissa Parson (03:59):
Sure. So let's expand a little bit on the
exercise we did last week. Andone of the three exercises we
did last week. And you're goingto center yourself in your body,
wherever you are, just likenotice where you are in space.
If you've got your feet on theground, notice they're on the
ground. If you're sitting at achair, notice that you're
(04:20):
sitting in a chair, just kind ofgive yourself that moment of,
oh, here I am. And then pick abody part that feels good to
touch and give it someattention. And I'm keeping that
really vague on purpose. Becauseyou don't need to think too hard
about what attention means. Itcould just be rubbing your hands
(04:40):
together, or just holding on tothat part. And if there isn't a
part that feels particularlygood. Is there a part that feels
neutral? So again, maybe yourelbow, maybe you just cross your
arms? Does that feel neutral? Ordoes that feel like a gesture?
So see what feels interesting toyou. Just give a little
attention to a little bit ofyour body. And then come back to
(05:08):
noticing your feet on theground, or your butt in your
seat. And check in. How does itfeel now that you've given
yourself just a little tiny bitof attention?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:22):
It feels good. I chose my hand, my right
hand, I'm right handed, and Iwas sort of working with the
palm of my hand with my lefthand. So both hands were
involved and kind of just likemassaging the meaty palm of my
hand. It felt good to sort of bemindful and concentrating on one
(05:44):
thing.
Larissa Parson (05:44):
Yeah, yes. Oh, I love that. Because we
concentrate on way too manythings at once so much of the
time. Yes, yes, yes, I'm havinga little laugh with myself about
how many things I've beenconcentrating on in the last few
days. And it's just it's way toomany. It's way too many.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:02):
I have also been concentrating on many
things in this moment. And sohave lots of other folks in my
circle that I've been hearingfrom, too. Lots of things
happening at the end of theyear. And so there's also that
timeline piece that we don'talways necessarily have and it's
maybe less arbitrary than itnormally is. It is for me
(06:23):
anyway.
Larissa Parson (06:23):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, there is some stuff
that has to get done by acertain day and a certain time.
And if I don't work on it rightnow, then it won't get done. And
let's be real that both of usare taking time off at the end
of the year very much onpurpose. And that requires
actually wrapping some things upsometimes. Not everything! Some
(06:44):
things can carry over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:46):
That's right.
Larissa Parson (06:46):
You don't have to tie it all up with a shiny
bow. But it does need to stop atsome point. So anyway, over the
last seven episodes, we haveexplored varying ways to access
a life rooted in curiosity andmoving towards liberation.
(07:06):
Because liberation is not anendpoint. To make these ways,
these paths, accessible, and tomake them feel more easeful.
We've talked a lot about theidea of titration. And so we
talked about it in our episodeon pleasure, we talked about it
in our episode on play, wetalked about it when we talked
(07:27):
about coming home to your body.
Titration, this idea of easinginto something bit by bit, sort
of like when you taste a newfood a little bit at a time
before you decide if you wantmore, or checking the
temperature of a bath or a hottub. I really think hot tubs are
a really good analogy for thisone, because like you want to
get in the hot tub. But if it'sa little too hot, you might put
(07:51):
your foot in, and then you mightgo up to your knees. And then
you kind of ease in a bit, maybeyou take your legs back out. And
then you go all the way you go alittle farther in, you don't
just jump in all at once, andlet yourself get scalded, we
kind of take it bit by bit. Andthen you might you know, maybe
even get out a little bit, youmight decide, Oh, I've been in
here five minutes, and I'mfeeling hot. So you might go sit
(08:12):
on the edge for a bit and thencome back in again. So small
steps, and titration are reallyimportant. They're really
important markers in the processof liberation, because it makes
this process palatable andaccessible, even for trauma
survivors. And we've seen thisshow up repeatedly this season.
(08:34):
And I'll also say that it'sreally important for anybody
who's just taking this step inany direction, that requires a
little bit more than you've beendoing before, whatever that is,
if that makes sense. And cominghome to your body was really
focused on in last week'sepisode.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:57):
Yes, yeah.
And we talked about how nervoussystems really aren't built for
"the wow and the how" to be inevery moment of our lives.
Right, this tip channels us backto episode two, which was all
about pleasure, right? Kind oflike we talked about big p
pleasure, super overwhelming, ifwe are in it all the time.
That's not sustainable, thatamped up feeling can be a lot to
(09:17):
take. And so what we didn't talkabout--which I do feel like is
sort of important to mentionhere-- is the opposite of this.
Which would be being in crisisall the time. And so I as
someone who's worked with abusesurvivor, I tend to use the
word "crisis", but crisis looksdifferent to different people.
So I'm not necessarily herespeaking about the crisis of
(09:40):
like, being temporarilyhomeless, but it could be crisis
in different ways. You losechildcare unexpectedly. Your kid
goes to school and there's noteacher for your child. Your
partner loses their job, youlose your job. You're asked to
take on extra responsibilities.
The child has diagnosed withsomething. All of these things
(10:02):
can feel like a crisis. They canfeel traumatic and it's
important to remember here thattrauma is something that we get
to define for ourselves. So I,for example, would say, yes, my
partner losing their job issomething that's traumatic for
myself. So crisis is more about--how we're using it here-- is
(10:27):
more about like, moving fromfire to fire like that is
completely exhausting. And Idon't want to go too deep into
this. But just to sort of giveit as a contrast to the big p
pleasure in the similar way thatit doesn't feel good,
emotionally or physically.
Right, our bodies are notsupposed to be in fight mode all
the time. That's exhausting.
(10:48):
Fight mode elevates ourcortisol. That's the stress
hormone that helps the body copewith stress through its effects
on metabolism and immune system.
So cortisol is a good thing inmoderation. But high levels of
cortisol can lead us to allkinds of health and wellness
challenges and dysregulatedsleep and all kinds of things.
So bottom line, when you'reliving on the edge, whether it's
(11:09):
in crisis of your owndefinition, or you're constantly
in like big pleasure, you don'tfeel good.
Larissa Parson (11:16):
Yes, yes. And let's put this in the context of
our lives over the last twoyears, we have all been in
crisis for two years. And theeffects of that crisis have been
bigger or smaller for many ofus, depending on what kind of
socioeconomic status we have,what kind of cushion we have,
what kind of you know, all thatkind of stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:36):
Support systems...
Larissa Parson (11:37):
Support systems.
Yes, by "cushion" I wasincluding support systems. But
thank you for naming that thatway. That's a really important,
Elizabeth. So it doesn't feelgood.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:48):
Right.
Larissa Parson (11:49):
And with that as a big picture of the context
we're in, and then there's alsosystems of oppression, which as
we know, get heightened andintensified by crisis a lot of
the time. Um so, but here onWondermine, we're all about
feeling good(laughter).
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:08):
Yes, we are!
Larissa Parson (12:10):
But course, not all the time, because we can't.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:14):
That's overwhelming.
Larissa Parson (12:15):
Because it's overwhelming. And here's our
Yes, And. So one way to avoidavoid burnout, when it comes to
taking time to look at what isgoing on in the world and in
ourselves, and how are weaffected by crisis or pleasure
both, is to slow down. And whenwe're when we're looking at
(12:41):
changes we want to see in theworld, one of the ways to make
it doable for ourselves is toslow down. So when we start
looking at Oh, hey, fatphobia isactually making me feel terrible
about my body. That, like whenwe start shifting that lens on
the world, we don't just likeswap it out for a whole new set
(13:04):
of glasses that have a reallydifferent prescription, because
that hurts. And maybe I'll use adifferent analogy, a time-worn
analogy. And I'm going to have amajor nerd out moment here. The
more that we've been talkingabout the idea of titration over
the last several weeks, the morethan I think like oh, wow, this
(13:26):
is just like Plato's cave. Sofor those of you all..I'm like
jumping, literally jumping upand down, Elizabeth can see.
In the contextof liberation, right, because
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:34):
Yes, yes.
Let me just say what otherpodcast out there is talking
about Plato's cave, let's justbe honest.
there's probably some podcasttalking about Plato's cave in
all kinds of ways that I don'tagree with. However, um, so I
spent 10 years teaching highschool. And this is one of the
(13:56):
texts that I taught a lot, and Istudied it, studied it as an
undergraduate as well, and ingrad school. So let me give you
the really short version of thecave- which is an analogy that's
being used in the Republic tokind of describe souls. And the
Republic as a whole is ametaphor for the soul. So let's
not even get into all of thatdetail. All you need to know for
(14:19):
the purposes of thisconversation, is that Socrates
is saying, hey, what if therewere people in a cave, and they
were chained in place, so theycan only face a wall. And there
are shadows of puppets beingprojected onto the wall, there's
fire behind all the people andthen there are puppets in front
of the fire and the shadows areon the wall projecting on the
wall, and they're chained inplace. They can't even turn
(14:41):
their heads, they have no ideawhat's behind them. All they
know is what they see in frontof them.
And I think that the idea of amovie theater really helps with
this image because you've gotthis projector behind you. So
you can just imagine that ifthat makes it easier. So the
people in the cave have neverknown any other reality. And
there's also these other detailsin the story, I'm not going to
(15:03):
get into them, but they havecontests about what they see and
stuff like that. Just imaginethat one person gets forcibly
dragged out of the cave. Andfirst, they're confused, because
they see the puppets and thefire on their way out. And
they're like, What was that? Idon't even know. But they just
keep going because they're beingpulled out. And this, my
friends, is not titration. Whenthey're pulled out into the
(15:26):
light, they're completelyblinded by first at first,
because it's so bright. And it'simpossible because the
transition is so extreme, it'simpossible for them to believe
what they see is real at first.
And I have this really strongmemory. It's this little
fragment of memory of... I thinkmaybe we went to see Indiana
Jones and the Temple of Doom, ormaybe it was Return of the Jedi.
(15:48):
I was like, eight, or somethinglike that. And it was the middle
of the day. And we walked out ofthe theater through the doors
that led directly outside. Andit was exactly this kind of
experience. I just remember itbeing in the dark, and then
being in this bright whitelight. So and Plato goes on to
describe like, how, how thesepeople would get used to it. And
(16:08):
they'd come to discover that thethings outside are real. And
then they get confused by goingback into the cave. And they'd
be like, No, it's not real, thatpeople in the cave are like,
Yes, it is. There's like thiswhole, there's this whole back
and forth here, but but we'rejust focusing on the like coming
out of the dark into the lightthe dark of the cave into the
light of day, we're trying to dothe opposite of dragging
(16:29):
somebody through, and justshoving them into the light and
saying figure it out. When youleave a movie theater, usually,
you usually go down like a darkhallway, to get out of the
theater itself, then thebrighter one with the dim light,
so so that it's not too much ofan adjustment when you go back
into the theater, if you aregoing like to the bathroom and
(16:50):
coming back, and then you gointo the lobby, and a lot of the
time the lobby has big tintedwindows, so there's lots of
light coming in, and then you gooutside, and it might still be
bright. But it's not like thisglary intense light. Because
that is disconcerting. And it'sa huge stress on our nervous
system. Instead, we're walkingdown the hallway of liberation
(17:13):
for our whole lives. It's aprocess. So yes, we're walking
toward the, quote, unquote,light. And we're not in any rush
to get there at all. And we arein a rush, right? It is urgent,
(17:33):
it is important. Liberationmatters for all of us. But we're
not putting that layer ofurgency, that means we have to
rip ourselves through it. Ifthat makes sense.
Yeah,because that's somewhat of an
imposed urgency than isn't it?
Right? Because that's sort oflike a systems of oppression
(17:55):
thing. I feel like that's alittle bit of capitalism, that's
a little bit of everything inthere, this, "go and get it
done" quickly thing. And I wantto just lift up that sentence a
little bit more. We're walkingtoward the light. And we're not
in any rush to get there. Wehear all the time, that life is
a journey, and what's the rush,let's stop and smell the roses
(18:16):
and enjoy these moments. And,you know, those words are
beautiful and inspiring. Andthere's a real practical aspect
that can get missed. And I thinkthis can be especially true for
trauma survivors who have beenmay have been in crisis to
crisis to crisis and do haveexhausted nervous systems, you
know, so it's like, okay, let'sall stop and smell the roses and
(18:38):
pause. Well, practicallyspeaking, how do we do that?
Larissa Parson (18:42):
Yes. Hmm.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (18:45):
So the tool we're talking about is
small steps or titration. Wehave to ease into this idea of
the long walk out of the cave.
We have to meander through thehallway in the theater, passing
from space to space, graduallygoing towards more of the
brighter light of the dayoutside. But we're used to
running sprints, right? We'reused to really taking off at a
(19:07):
breakneck pace, and then alsobeing praised when we do that
breakneck pace. So that'sanother tricky piece. So small
steps and titration are waysthat we can get used to this
idea that is sort of inspiring.
And yes, life is a journey, andwe need to stop and smell roses.
(19:29):
But how do we do that? We dothat through small steps and
titration. But I want to talk alittle bit about the other tools
that we've touched on theseason.
Larissa Parson (19:38):
Yeah. So some of the other tools that we use to
move away from white supremacyculture, and its insistence on
perfectionism and urgency, andthe capitalistic work ethic,
like all of these things thatare saying your body doesn't
matter. All of those things. Wehave joy drops, which are tiny
(20:03):
moments of pleasure, andnoticing and getting curious,
which is operating as anobserver rather than a judge.
And I really think to speakabout those two slash three
things. It's really kind ofthree. But I put noticing and
curiosity kind of in the samecategory. We're, we're just
(20:24):
taking... They're kind ofsimilar. So, but the joy drop,
we're noticing what feels good.
And what blank brings uspleasure. We're not talking
about big P pleasure. We'retalking about small simple
things. So again, small steps.
Titration. So here's my example,which is very mundane. Because I
(20:44):
knew I'd be up extra early thismorning, I pre loaded my
coffeemaker. And because mypartner's out of town, I put
some cardamom in it. So it wouldhave this slightly different
flavor. Like as if I'd gone andgot myself a fancy latte. And
then when I made my coffee, Iadded cinnamon and sugar, and
cream. And while it was stillhot from the pot, and while I
(21:08):
was working this morning, whilemy kids were sleeping, every
single-still hot, because mykids are asleep-sip of coffee
was a chance for me to enjoythat little bit of being in my
body. Like, Yes, I'm up earlierthan I went to be, yes, I am
exhausted. And this coffee iseffing delicious. It's not the
(21:33):
experience I have most days ofchugging down a rapidly cooling
cup of coffee. And it took justa little bit of forethought, but
not a lot. And I noticed that Ifelt really, really delighted by
it. Just like every little sipI'm like, Woohoo! I put cinnamon
in my coffee today. And it'sjust a little thrill. So that
(21:58):
choice to do that came out ofcuriosity, what would make
tomorrow morning better.
And then so to talk a little bitmore about curiosity, instead of
immediately assuming that weknow the answer, or the right
thing, it's about sitting with aquestion and getting curious,
like, maybe thinking, Oh, I'llenjoy brewing some tea, or I'll
(22:20):
enjoy making some coffee or justpre grinding the coffee would
have been okay, but instead, Iwas like, what would really
light me up? So that can be soyour curiosity can be about
something like that. Do I likecinnamon my coffee? Or it could
be bigger? Does that person'spost on social media really
needs to be responded to by meright now? Could that be a
(22:45):
private conversation? Could thatbe something that takes more
time? Could we slow down theprocess? It's about asking
questions instead of leaping tojudgment. And so with a social
media post, for example, insteadof saying they're wrong and I
need to tell them right now howwrong they are. Which is like me
(23:07):
getting all up in my judgmentalfeelings. And it's not gonna
really resonate or really feelgood to the person receiving
that feedback, if I'm comingfrom that place. Coming from a
different place, maybe, butcoming from that place no. So
that's a practice. In ourculture, like you said, just
(23:29):
now, Elizabeth, like we're usedto being praised for running
sprints, we're conditioned toneed to know the right answer
right away. But getting to thetruth and getting to liberation
is more complex than that. Andthat's why things like I was
just gonna say, like,collaborative processes when
(23:50):
we're talking about doing socialjustice organizing work, work
really well, and they take time.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:03):
I want to add on to that bit about the
social media piece, because Iposted something in response to
someone's post that just didn'tfeel good to me. And I said,
"I'm not sure this is a fairjudgement, we don't know the
whole situation," was the bottomline of my post. And someone
messaged me, I don't know theirname. But they decided to
(24:25):
message me privately and said,"I wanted to just say this, that
we actually, we actually do knowmore. " And then shared more of
the circumstances around thesituation. I did not have the
most accurate or currentinformation about the story. And
they said, "I don't want to Idon't want to add more fuel to
(24:49):
the fire here. And I definitelydon't want it to look like I'm
calling you out. And I supportthis idea of not judging people
for their circumstances, becausewe don't know. And I still want
you to know actually, the factas how they stand now." And I
really appreciated it, Iresponded to them privately and
said, "I guess I didn't have allthe information. And thank you
so much. And I really appreciateyou messaging me and taking it
(25:12):
and having it remain at thislevel between two people." And I
feel like I was humble andapologized for, you know, not
not having all the information.
And they did the right thing.
And it felt good. They did theright thing in my mind for me.
And it felt really good torespond to them in a way that
was sort of that was calm, andmeasured in exchange for their
(25:35):
measured thoughtful statement.
And the people on the originalpost, were really slammed me and
were like, "you clearly don'tknow. And if you've read
anything you would have known".
And I was, and I came back andwas kind of abrupt with them.
And I said, "I guess there werestories that I didn't know. "
And snarky as hell was like,"y'all didn't think to share
them. So where are they anyway?"You know, so I had a really
(25:57):
different response to being kindof called out like, "you don't
even know you think you know,but you don't know." And I was
thinking, "well, that's notreally fair". But I responded
totally in kind with their tone,very aware that I was and kind
of wanted to say, what justwanted to prove myself in a way
and say, I did, here's the twostories I read. And I guess they
were not as current as I thoughtthey were. But it really, it's
(26:19):
interesting to me how we canthen respond in a way match that
response, which...
Larissa Parson (26:24):
Yep,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:25):
...in a positive or a negative.
Larissa Parson (26:27):
Yep, that's what we do. That's how we human.
Everybody's not always doingtheir best all the time.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:32):
Right.
Larissa Parson (26:33):
And it affects every single one of us every
time that we touch that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:37):
Right.
Larissa Parson (26:37):
But every time that somebody's not doing their
best at us, we don't do our bestback. And that's okay. And it's
interesting, Elizabeth, that youcan step back and look at that
and go, Look, I know that wasnot my best. And there we are. I
have different responses. Yeah.
So this really makes me feellike talking about community.
Right in here. Because we'retalking about, like, we talked
(27:00):
about community is partly yourright people, and the people
you're in right relationshipwith. But there are lots of
other people who make upcommunity. And it depends on the
context where we're talkingabout community, like Instagram
is one kind of community. Andthen you and I having
(27:21):
conversations is a differentkind of community. So how do all
of those relationships kind oflead us toward or away from
maybe liberation and joy? Hmm.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:34):
So I think of community as everybody. Yeah,
so that's like everybody, Imean, not like my community is
everyone who was part of myworld. So it's not, you know,
Vice President Kamala Harris,but it is in a way, if I follow
her on social media. So it is mykiddos, friends, parents, it's
(27:56):
people I volunteer with, if Iwent to church, it would be
church, church family, it'scertainly family of origin. It's
work colleagues, it'sprofessional associations, it's
chosen family, it's all of thesepeople, including right people,
and right relationships. Andbecause our community is large,
and it includes so many people,including our social media
(28:20):
people, it's really importantthat we do have those right
people and those rightrelationships, right, because
they balance the rest ofeveryone else.
Larissa Parson (28:30):
Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:31):
We have toxic family that we cannot end
a relationship with, forwhatever reason. And that is
(28:57):
very true for some people,especially for some trauma
survivors, for whatever reason,multiple reasons, very valid
(29:21):
So, circling back to the cave,right? We need other people to
reasons. All the more reason whywe do need right people and
Larissa Parson (29:42):
Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnso (29:44):
...possible level. This is why people come
right relationships. So when wehave our right people and our
back to a support group thatthey feel welcome and affirmed
that because they feel seen. Allof a sudden they hear a story
that is similar to theirs andthe light goes on. And they're
like, "I'm not the only one."They feel seen. They feel
(30:04):
right relationships, we betterunderstand how to move toward
validated, their nervous systemgets regulated. So we just said
get us out of the dark cave,because we're not all doing the
nervous systems are not builtfor the "wow and the how"
because whether that's the wowof big p pleasure or the wow of
moving from fire to fire,readying yourself for battle,
your right people and your rightrelationships are healing. And
liberation. They help us movetoward liberation, because they
this is not just mine andLarissa's opinion on this,
(30:27):
there's plenty of work outthere. I will, we will share in
the show notes about one of mypersonal heroes, Dr. Bruce
Perry, who talks a lot aboutthis. Shout out Bruce Perry!
are people who then can see usand raise us up for who we are
They're healing, they'revalidating, they allow you to be
seen and in turn them feelregulated, right. So there's
just to kind of like some ofyour there's a lot that we can
(30:48):
do on our own. But if all weever do is like act on behalf of
best we can and being seenregulates us. This is so crucial
ourselves without any kind ofright people, without
without having a stake in ourfailure or success or feeling so
connections to others, just withall of this influence of
community and these biggersystems of oppression on us,
we're not only going to feelreally lonely-- and not
experience the pleasure of beingwith our right people or right
(31:11):
relationships because that's sodeep and rich --we're just gonna
protective of us, they won'tallow us to move toward a place
be exhausted, in part because ofthe stress of doing it all alone
and working with other thesesystems of oppression, which is
like "you go on your own, youdon't need other people," "You
don't need other people," iswhat the systems of oppression
tell us. And we know the exactopposite is true, even though it
is not the so called "right"answer that we're taught.
(31:31):
of liberation.
on
Larissa Parson (31:36):
Yes to all of that, to all of that. One of the
things that has popped up overand over again and think piece
after think piece after thinkpiece throughout this ongoing
pandemic, is how parents,frequently and particularly
mothers, but parents in general,I will say, are overstretched.
(31:59):
And that's I know, that's anunderstatement. A big reason why
is that for most of the last twoyears, the already meager and
not enough support systems, thecommunity ties that help us kind
of limp from day to day withjust a little bit more ease,
have been strained, or evensevered. And that includes kind
(32:24):
of looking at differentfamilies, different systems like
that, like there's schools,closing, all of that kind of
stuff. Like, I just I know somany friends who had to stop
talking to their family becauseof differences around how to
handle the pandemic. So thenthere's a sense of isolation and
(32:48):
loneliness, again, and coupledwith trying to work with kids
underfoot or doing online schoolfor all of last year. But that's
been a disaster for people'ssense of community. And we don't
have communal support forraising children in this country
in a way that also supports thephysical and mental health needs
of parents. And I want to saythat because of that this does
(33:10):
not just affect parents, itaffects, it affects folks who
are not parents, too, in lots ofdifferent ways. It shows up as
like, well so and so as to takecare of the kids. So you have to
pick up the slack. And in morebroad terms, it shows up because
all of our liberation and joy isbound together whether we like
(33:30):
it or not.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:31):
That's right.
Larissa Parson (33:31):
Right. We're not supporting parents, we're also
not supporting elders. We'renot, you know, we're not holding
everybody together in a net. Sowhether we want to be in that
net or not, we are thenonexistent net. Okay, that got
away from me. You know, butthat's what it means to live in
(33:52):
a community. Right? It's to bebound together. And we thrive
together. Or not. When we makeit easy for everyone to access
what they need and what theywant. Like cinnamon in my
coffee, I don't need cinnamon inmy coffee. I just wanted it.
When we make that possible. Wemake it easier to experience joy
(34:15):
and pleasure. And that moves usall toward liberation from those
systems of oppression.
Elizabeth M. Johnso (34:25):
Absolutely.
And this is really just makingme think of adrienne maree
brown's words that we talkedabout early early, right Episode
Two on pleasure. We talked aboutbig p pleasure and joy drops.
You know, she said, "pleasure isa measure of freedom". It's a
way that we can act of our ownaccord in service to ourselves,
(34:46):
despite systems of oppressiontelling us that pleasure is
unimportant, or doesn't matter.
And of course, capitalism wouldsay that pleasure is important.
So here's this thing you need tobuy, right?
Larissa Parson (35:05):
Oh, it's really fancy cinnamon.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:08):
They're really good cinnamon, the one
that's expensive, you know? Butwe're not talking about. We're
talking about us --going back tothe noticing, right?-- noticing
what are these pieces that giveus pleasure? Because we're
noticing that they do. Beingtold this is the thing that will
(35:28):
fix it for you or will bring youpleasure.
Larissa Parson (35:31):
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Um, let me quote myself, please.
A pleasure is it is a state ofliberation that we can access
because it can exist withinourselves, exists within
community, and it can existoutside of the systems of
oppression that deny us ourhumanity. Yes. So, yes,
(35:52):
capitalism tells you to buy thatcinnamon the really expensive
cinnamon. Yep. And so yes,systems of oppression exist. And
we can get to liberation becauseof our right people, and because
of our ability to sit with theambiguity that capitalism tells
me, I want the fancy cinnamon.
And I just have regularcinnamon, and it still tastes
good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (36:15):
Because it's cinnamon
Larissa Parson (36:16):
because it's cinnamon!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (36:17):
Right?
We're not talking aboutdifferent kinds of cheese.
[laughter] So anyway, I gotdistracted for a second, but
like it is cinnamon, right?
Like, and there may be thatperson out there who's like, oh,
yeah, this is not Madagascar.
That's vanilla. But this is thiskind of cinnamon. This is
Larissa Parson (36:32):
Ceylon! Ceylon! Yes! You know, but it's
fine. It's fine.
Yeah, I mean, so like to maybetake it away from food and
cinnamon for just a minute.
Pleasure, community, rightpeople, titration, little joy
drops. All of these things helpus sit with this dichotomy, or
(36:55):
this binary idea. Which is notabout I mean... this idea that
we don't have to be in thebinary of like, yes, systems of
oppression exist. And I'm okaywith being in this ambiguous
place. And I can have joy, evenas I resist those systems. Even
as I choose things that arepushing back against those
(37:17):
systems, I get to have joy onthe way to that because if I
don't, it's not fun. Like lifeis not good. I don't choose
that. So to back it up just alittle bit to the idea of body
liberation. And Sonya ReneeTaylor's radical self love.
Like, this is slow. Radical selflove doesn't happen at first
(37:41):
sight. titration and smallsteps, get us there slowly. But
dialing into pleasure anddialing into joy and discovering
who our right people are.
Remember, our right people feelgood to us. We feel the
(38:01):
rightness in our bodies. Knowingall that means we can get to a
sense of liberation in ourbodies. And then if we can feel
that on the individual embodiedlevel, then those ripples move
out, it becomes a lot easier toshift our focus to the culture
as a whole, it becomes a loteasier because we're like, oh,
(38:24):
okay, my body had cinnamontoday. And that felt really
good. And I want everybody tohave really good cinnamon in
their coffee if they want it.
And if they don't want it, theydon't have to have it. That's
that, like, we get to choose?
Yeah, we get to choose.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (38:40):
I get to choose.
Larissa Parson (38:41):
Um where was I gonna go with that.
I know. I'mlike, I want to have like, let's
Elizabeth M. Johnson (38:44):
I'm sorry.
talk about choice. And let'stalk autonomy.
[laughter] I justfeel really strongly, like we
get to choose! We get to choose!
Larissa Parson (38:54):
So wait, well, let's say something about that.
Because I think that's a reallyimportant part of what we've
been talking about, Elizabeth.
We get to choose and andliberation is being given a
choice. Wait, not being given.
Having a choice. And recognizingthat we have a choice. So if
we're able to get free on thatindividual level, then we
(39:18):
recognize and move to change thesystems that have been holding
us back. So if we again, if wesay oh, there's white supremacy
culture, telling me that I needto yell at this person for being
racist. Isn't that weird whitesupremacy culture is telling me
to yell at them? Yeah, so. Alittle bit of like, pause,
getting curious, do I need toyell at them? Do I need to have
(39:40):
a conversation? Is this somebodythat I need to focus on? Or is
there another way to work onchanging this particular
structural problem? Is this anindividual thing for me to do
with this one person? Maybe? Ordo I not have the resources-
internal resources, supportsystem resources- to do this
(40:01):
today. So when we are able toget curious and notice that kind
of stuff, then we get to havepleasure through our lives
daily, not just every once in awhile when we go on that big
vacation, which as we know leadsto a big letdown. Right? But
(40:23):
daily, like it gets to besomething we live. And we get to
make change, either in bigripples when we have the
capacity for it, or little tinyripples. And that's what it's
all about.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:40):
And we get to choose.
Larissa Parson (40:42):
and we get to choose.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:44):
Maybe it's a big ripple day. And maybe it's
a small ripple day. And maybe Ihave capacity to do this piece
today. But I might not at otherpoints. I think the choice piece
can be really helpful toremember, because there's going
to be a lot that we don't havechoice around.
Larissa Parson (41:03):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:03):
Because there's a lot that we don't have
choice around, it feels reallygood to have some choice around
certain things or whatever thosethings are. And for, especially
for our trauma survivors rightout there, right. Choice is
something that we have. There'scontrol there. And control is
power and power is safety formany trauma survivors. So all of
Larissa Parson (41:23):
These are choices that we can make. And
these bits are things that areoptions, right? Are choices,
yes, all of these bits, thesebig picture bits of the tools.
And that's the sum up of wherewe're at. These are choices that
we can make.
when people try to take our wayor take away our choices, we
feel powerless. So I don't know,I want to come up with something
(41:49):
brilliant, like let's get outthere and start taking our
choices back. Yes. Well, I liketo choose pleasure and choose
joy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:55):
Yes.
Because I think that...that's agreat sum up because it's
something that we can choose.
You know, we can choose thecinnamon in the coffee. We can
choose to do this little pieceof -- as someone said who was
listening to the podcast told me-- of taking the candle out of
the packaging, and just lightingthe candle instead of saving it
(42:15):
for a better day or a differentoccasion. Or I've always
wondered about, you know, savingthe good china. Yeah. And I'm
like, "Oh, wow, no, like, let'suse that right now. Because it's
so damn beautiful. Like, this isgorgeous. Let's use it all the
time." Or I've taken out thesweater that I especially love.
I'm not gonna save it. I'm justgonna wear it.
Larissa Parson (42:37):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:37):
Yes, let's choose pleasure.
Larissa Parson (42:40):
Let's choose pleasure.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:43):
And speaking of pleasure, let's talk
about what we're eating thisweek. And may I start? Because
clearly, I'm fixated on food. Ilike to talk about food.
Larissa Parson (42:51):
You are SO ready to talk about food. I love it.
Yes, this is a choice we get tomake. And this is, can I just
make a little tiny digressionbefore we hear about food? I'm
excited for it? Because I know alittle bit about what you're
going to talk about. I can'twait to hear about it. I mean,
can we when we're talking aboutchoice, this is one of those
places where people get intopower struggles with kids all
(43:13):
the time, because food is one ofthe things we can choose.
Everybody can choose whetherthey want whether they're going
to eat or not what's presentedto them. And yes, that what is
presented what you haveavailable to eat totally varies
on lots depends on lots ofcircumstances. Let's be real
about that. Yeah, and you get tochoose and so you are choosing
(43:34):
some delights this week. Tell meabout it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:37):
I'm in a Christmas theme. And I have many
sweets that are either at myhouse or headed my way which I'm
very much excited about. I havethese chocolate covered pretzels
that are shaped like Christmastrees that taste like mint. They
are green. It's like a chocolatethat's like dyed green or
(44:00):
something. I don't even knowwhat's going on there with the
ingredients list but they'resnappy. And they're pepperminty
and it's quite the nice littlecrisp in your mouth which I
love. I also got some cranberryorange biscotti and sometimes
biscotti can be really --I meanit should generally be crunchy
(44:20):
--but sometimes all you taste iscrunch or it tastes a little bit
like old. No no this cranberryorange biscotti is fantastic.
And I love it and I have alittle bit leftover and probably
I'm not going to be get moresadly but I'm enjoying it very
much with a little bit of tea.
And then I have coming nextweek, some gingerbread cake. I
(44:41):
know from Strong Arm though, somaybe it's not too late to have
it in your CSA. It has a lemonglaze on it. And we ordered this
last year from Strong Arm and itwas knock your socks off. And I
love gingerbread. And I don't--I love to cook and bake,--do
(45:01):
anything with dough. Dough istoo scary. So I do nothing with
dough. So gingerbread is nothingI will ever touch. But I'm going
to have a little bit ofgingerbread. And I'm going to
put a little bit of --Rhondafrom Chez Moi Bakery does an
incredible lemon curd. She ofthe famous rum cake that some of
us know in Durham. She'samazing. And she does a lemon
(45:21):
curd that is fantastic and hasan unbelievable shelf life.
--and I will put it with thegingerbread and it'll be
delightful. And that is comingmy way next.
Larissa Parson (45:32):
Mmm. That sounds delicious. I'm coming over to
your house.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:36):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (45:36):
And I'm eating all your food.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:37):
All of it.
Join me.
Larissa Parson (45:42):
So you said you do nothing with dough. I baked
bread yesterday for the firsttime in like five years. It was
a disaster.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:49):
Okay, but you tried it.
Larissa Parson (45:52):
I'm not giving up. I bought enough flour that I
can try again. So maybe one ofthe things I'll be eating is
another attempt. I think Ididn't do a good job with it. I
usually do it completely byhand. I tried to use my stand
mixer and it was just like, Ididn't know how to do it right
with that thing. So I'm gonna doit the right way. When I'm less
tired. More resourced. Let's seewhat else have I been eating?
(46:17):
Again, as always have no ideawhat's coming to me this
afternoon from the CSA. So we'llsee maybe there's gingerbread in
there. I don't know.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:24):
Maybe next week though, because mine is
coming next week.
Larissa Parson (46:27):
Oh, you know, we haven't done the holiday
ordering. Oh, yeah. So maybethat's why, mental note. Until
now. Maybe this weekend is whenI order that. Anyway, so last
weekend, though, I had afabulous food experience. And
this is one of those like, Yourright people make everything
taste better experiences.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:45):
Always.
Larissa Parson (46:46):
Right? Um, I got to meet up with one of those
people who I have both rightpeople and relationship
connections with it depends onthe context of what we're doing.
My friend Deb Malkin, who isphenomenal pain coach. She's
amazing. And we went to Nuvotacoin Durham, which I love. But I
(47:07):
never get to go and just havetacos since the pandemic
started. Because it's not likeI'm just going to Target and get
myself a taco. Because those twogo together in my brain. So I
had this fried liver taco, whichI love. I don't love liver. It's
really good for my body. My bodyreally likes it. And it was just
like, it was perfect. It was sogood. It was just-It's crispy.
(47:31):
It's very, very, very crispy. Soyou don't get that grossness.
And. And then there was like,there were these two tacos and
we were sitting in the sun. Ialso had a duck, a duck taco,
which was great. I'm sorry,vegetarians. I live with one.
I'm sorry. My body really needsmeat. But we were sitting in the
(47:52):
sun and we were having thisconversation. It was just one of
those moments where I'm like,this is almost too much fun. And
I don't care because I know thatthis is part of the wave of
being in life like, Oh, this isjust like so exquisite. I don't
want to stop that kind of fun.
And we went and got coffee atCocoa Cinnamon and walked around
(48:15):
for a while. It was like one ofthose Durham type days.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:20):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (48:21):
And it was beautiful. So that's what I was
eating and...
Elizabeth M. Johnso (48:24):
Delightful.
Larissa Parson (48:25):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:30):
Larissa and I are so grateful. And just
frankly blown away by all of thesupport that we've received from
all of you. Over the past fourmonths or three--we've been
talking about it for four months--that you have shown us. So
you've shared Wondermine. You'veturned other people on to it.
(48:52):
You follow us on social media,you've done all the things of
support. And we are so gratefuland just feel very warmed up by
all of the love that you haveshown us. So thank you. Thank
you. Thank you. I think welooked at one point --not "we"
Elizabeth -- a couple of daysago when it was over 200
(49:14):
downloads and that's so cool. Ihave no concept if that's good
or bad. We don't put any... weare non binary here we are. So,
we are not going to put it inthat kind of framework. I think
200 is a really awesome number.
And thank you all for yoursupport.
Larissa Parson (49:33):
I can't really add anything to that. Yeah, I
know it's over 200 Yeah, Ididn't. I also did not look this
morning at the crack of dawn tosee because I was busy with my
coffee. But thank you all somuch for listening and for all
of your feedback. And yes, wegot that message that you want
us to do a books episode. It'scoming. It's in the works. It's
(49:55):
gonna happen. Yeah. 2022Sometime Yeah, yep, teaser. So
yes. So,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:03):
Love it.
We are grateful every time youshare Wondermine with friends.
Follow us on Instagram atWonderminepodcast, write us a
review and that will help othersfind us.
Larissa Parson (50:15):
Yep. And we're just so delighted you've been
listening. If you want to findout when that episode's gonna
come out you better keepfollowing us over there on
Instagram. And that's all we gotto say today. Thank you all so
much for listening
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson,
I'm a joy coach, a movementteacher, a mom to twins, a bit
of a hippie and I am so readyfor my time off next week.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:17):
I feel that one. I am Elizabeth M
Johnson. I'm a parent partner,rape survivor and writer. I talk
and write about trauma,relationships and culture. And I
believe in magic, everyday magiclike fairies and finding items
that were misplaced. But alsobig magic like Santa Claus.
Larissa Parson (00:35):
I love that so much. Magic. Magic. We are the
duo behind this limited seriespodcast called Wondermine.
Wondermine is a limited series,feminist podcast that looks at
the "wow" and the "how" ofliving a life rooted in
curiosity, community andliberation. If you've ever felt
(00:58):
like something was missing, oryou were missing something, this
is the podcast for you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:03):
And this is our final episode. We're not
going to get into any specifictopic per se, but rather offer a
wrap-up. A small but powerfulgift wrapped box of sorts of
some of the key ideas we talkedabout this season. But first, as
we always do, we're gonna chatabout what we're reading.
Larissa, can you start us off?
Larissa Parson (01:26):
Yeah, so I finally got to start Diana
Gabaldon's latest Outlandernovel. And it's been maybe three
years since the last time I readone of these, this is the... I
want to say it's the ninth orthe 10th book. I'm really
terrible at keeping track ofthose things. And so I'm having
(01:46):
to completely re-familiarizemyself with the context and the
characters. And she's reallygood at that, and really good at
weaving it in. So that you don'tgo oh my gosh, who was this
person? Who is that person?
Like, you get these littlereminders. And that's really,
really helpful. And I reallyjust love revisiting that world.
So I'm really enjoying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:05):
That's a great, that's a great
recommendation. And it's, Ithink it's a good sometimes it's
a good practice for me to goback and like remind myself
about who these key characterswere in books in series, you
know, when they update, I havenot read any of those. But I
know everyone, a lot of people Iknow, we're fans. A couple of
books showed up in my libraryqueue that I had put on hold
were finally available. And oneof them is Matrix by Lauren
(02:29):
Groff. This is her second novel,and her first one was Fates and
Furies. I think recommendationcame to me via those mini book
(02:52):
reviews in the New Yorker. So Iam maybe 10 pages into it. So
very, very early in. And a youngwoman named Marie has been sent
to this priory in like 1152. Andthat's where she's going to live
out her days. And she's beensent there by... I want to say
(03:14):
Eleanor of Aquitaine. So it is ahistorical fiction, which I
haven't read in a while. And I'ma big fan of already, I'm really
liking this character of Marie.
And I'm hoping that stays withme because I have a hard time
staying with books where I don'tfeel a lot for any of the
characters I'm encountering.
Which sometimes is why I don'tfinish reading the book. So
(03:36):
excited for this.
Larissa Parson (03:37):
Cool. That's one of the books on my to read list.
Oh, my very long to read list.
So I'm really curious to see howyou like it. And definitely,
it's kind of been moving up anddown my list, but it's early
2022. And we can talk about it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:52):
Okay, great. Um, Larissa, do you want
to lead us in a groundingexercise before our
conversation?
Larissa Parson (03:59):
Sure. So let's expand a little bit on the
exercise we did last week. Andone of the three exercises we
did last week. And you're goingto center yourself in your body,
wherever you are, just likenotice where you are in space.
If you've got your feet on theground, notice they're on the
ground. If you're sitting at achair, notice that you're
(04:20):
sitting in a chair, just kind ofgive yourself that moment of,
oh, here I am. And then pick abody part that feels good to
touch and give it someattention. And I'm keeping that
really vague on purpose. Becauseyou don't need to think too hard
about what attention means. Itcould just be rubbing your hands
(04:40):
together, or just holding on tothat part. And if there isn't a
part that feels particularlygood. Is there a part that feels
neutral? So again, maybe yourelbow, maybe you just cross your
arms? Does that feel neutral? Ordoes that feel like a gesture?
So see what feels interesting toyou. Just give a little
attention to a little bit ofyour body. And then come back to
(05:08):
noticing your feet on theground, or your butt in your
seat. And check in. How does itfeel now that you've given
yourself just a little tiny bitof attention?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:22):
It feels good. I chose my hand, my right
hand, I'm right handed, and Iwas sort of working with the
palm of my hand with my lefthand. So both hands were
involved and kind of just likemassaging the meaty palm of my
hand. It felt good to sort of bemindful and concentrating on one
(05:44):
thing.
Larissa Parson (05:44):
Yeah, yes. Oh, I love that. Because we
concentrate on way too manythings at once so much of the
time. Yes, yes, yes, I'm havinga little laugh with myself about
how many things I've beenconcentrating on in the last few
days. And it's just it's way toomany. It's way too many.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:02):
I have also been concentrating on many
things in this moment. And sohave lots of other folks in my
circle that I've been hearingfrom, too. Lots of things
happening at the end of theyear. And so there's also that
timeline piece that we don'talways necessarily have and it's
maybe less arbitrary than itnormally is. It is for me
(06:23):
anyway.
Larissa Parson (06:23):
Yeah, for sure, for sure, there is some stuff
that has to get done by acertain day and a certain time.
And if I don't work on it rightnow, then it won't get done. And
let's be real that both of usare taking time off at the end
of the year very much onpurpose. And that requires
actually wrapping some things upsometimes. Not everything! Some
(06:44):
things can carry over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:46):
That's right.
Larissa Parson (06:46):
You don't have to tie it all up with a shiny
bow. But it does need to stop atsome point. So anyway, over the
last seven episodes, we haveexplored varying ways to access
a life rooted in curiosity andmoving towards liberation.
(07:06):
Because liberation is not anendpoint. To make these ways,
these paths, accessible, and tomake them feel more easeful.
We've talked a lot about theidea of titration. And so we
talked about it in our episodeon pleasure, we talked about it
in our episode on play, wetalked about it when we talked
(07:27):
about coming home to your body.
Titration, this idea of easinginto something bit by bit, sort
of like when you taste a newfood a little bit at a time
before you decide if you wantmore, or checking the
temperature of a bath or a hottub. I really think hot tubs are
a really good analogy for thisone, because like you want to
get in the hot tub. But if it'sa little too hot, you might put
(07:51):
your foot in, and then you mightgo up to your knees. And then
you kind of ease in a bit, maybeyou take your legs back out. And
then you go all the way you go alittle farther in, you don't
just jump in all at once, andlet yourself get scalded, we
kind of take it bit by bit. Andthen you might you know, maybe
even get out a little bit, youmight decide, Oh, I've been in
here five minutes, and I'mfeeling hot. So you might go sit
(08:12):
on the edge for a bit and thencome back in again. So small
steps, and titration are reallyimportant. They're really
important markers in the processof liberation, because it makes
this process palatable andaccessible, even for trauma
survivors. And we've seen thisshow up repeatedly this season.
(08:34):
And I'll also say that it'sreally important for anybody
who's just taking this step inany direction, that requires a
little bit more than you've beendoing before, whatever that is,
if that makes sense. And cominghome to your body was really
focused on in last week'sepisode.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:57):
Yes, yeah.
And we talked about how nervoussystems really aren't built for
"the wow and the how" to be inevery moment of our lives.
Right, this tip channels us backto episode two, which was all
about pleasure, right? Kind oflike we talked about big p
pleasure, super overwhelming, ifwe are in it all the time.
That's not sustainable, thatamped up feeling can be a lot to
(09:17):
take. And so what we didn't talkabout--which I do feel like is
sort of important to mentionhere-- is the opposite of this.
Which would be being in crisisall the time. And so I as
someone who's worked with abusesurvivor, I tend to use the
word "crisis", but crisis looksdifferent to different people.
So I'm not necessarily herespeaking about the crisis of
(09:40):
like, being temporarilyhomeless, but it could be crisis
in different ways. You losechildcare unexpectedly. Your kid
goes to school and there's noteacher for your child. Your
partner loses their job, youlose your job. You're asked to
take on extra responsibilities.
The child has diagnosed withsomething. All of these things
(10:02):
can feel like a crisis. They canfeel traumatic and it's
important to remember here thattrauma is something that we get
to define for ourselves. So I,for example, would say, yes, my
partner losing their job issomething that's traumatic for
myself. So crisis is more about--how we're using it here-- is
(10:27):
more about like, moving fromfire to fire like that is
completely exhausting. And Idon't want to go too deep into
this. But just to sort of giveit as a contrast to the big p
pleasure in the similar way thatit doesn't feel good,
emotionally or physically.
Right, our bodies are notsupposed to be in fight mode all
the time. That's exhausting.
(10:48):
Fight mode elevates ourcortisol. That's the stress
hormone that helps the body copewith stress through its effects
on metabolism and immune system.
So cortisol is a good thing inmoderation. But high levels of
cortisol can lead us to allkinds of health and wellness
challenges and dysregulatedsleep and all kinds of things.
So bottom line, when you'reliving on the edge, whether it's
(11:09):
in crisis of your owndefinition, or you're constantly
in like big pleasure, you don'tfeel good.
Larissa Parson (11:16):
Yes, yes. And let's put this in the context of
our lives over the last twoyears, we have all been in
crisis for two years. And theeffects of that crisis have been
bigger or smaller for many ofus, depending on what kind of
socioeconomic status we have,what kind of cushion we have,
what kind of you know, all thatkind of stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:36):
Support systems...
Larissa Parson (11:37):
Support systems.
Yes, by "cushion" I wasincluding support systems. But
thank you for naming that thatway. That's a really important,
Elizabeth. So it doesn't feelgood.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:48):
Right.
Larissa Parson (11:49):
And with that as a big picture of the context
we're in, and then there's alsosystems of oppression, which as
we know, get heightened andintensified by crisis a lot of
the time. Um so, but here onWondermine, we're all about
feeling good(laughter).
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:08):
Yes, we are!
Larissa Parson (12:10):
But course, not all the time, because we can't.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:14):
That's overwhelming.
Larissa Parson (12:15):
Because it's overwhelming. And here's our
Yes, And. So one way to avoidavoid burnout, when it comes to
taking time to look at what isgoing on in the world and in
ourselves, and how are weaffected by crisis or pleasure
both, is to slow down. And whenwe're when we're looking at
(12:41):
changes we want to see in theworld, one of the ways to make
it doable for ourselves is toslow down. So when we start
looking at Oh, hey, fatphobia isactually making me feel terrible
about my body. That, like whenwe start shifting that lens on
the world, we don't just likeswap it out for a whole new set
(13:04):
of glasses that have a reallydifferent prescription, because
that hurts. And maybe I'll use adifferent analogy, a time-worn
analogy. And I'm going to have amajor nerd out moment here. The
more that we've been talkingabout the idea of titration over
the last several weeks, the morethan I think like oh, wow, this
(13:26):
is just like Plato's cave. Sofor those of you all..I'm like
jumping, literally jumping upand down, Elizabeth can see.
In the contextof liberation, right, because
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:34):
Yes, yes.
Let me just say what otherpodcast out there is talking
about Plato's cave, let's justbe honest.
there's probably some podcasttalking about Plato's cave in
all kinds of ways that I don'tagree with. However, um, so I
spent 10 years teaching highschool. And this is one of the
(13:56):
texts that I taught a lot, and Istudied it, studied it as an
undergraduate as well, and ingrad school. So let me give you
the really short version of thecave- which is an analogy that's
being used in the Republic tokind of describe souls. And the
Republic as a whole is ametaphor for the soul. So let's
not even get into all of thatdetail. All you need to know for
(14:19):
the purposes of thisconversation, is that Socrates
is saying, hey, what if therewere people in a cave, and they
were chained in place, so theycan only face a wall. And there
are shadows of puppets beingprojected onto the wall, there's
fire behind all the people andthen there are puppets in front
of the fire and the shadows areon the wall projecting on the
wall, and they're chained inplace. They can't even turn
(14:41):
their heads, they have no ideawhat's behind them. All they
know is what they see in frontof them.
And I think that the idea of amovie theater really helps with
this image because you've gotthis projector behind you. So
you can just imagine that ifthat makes it easier. So the
people in the cave have neverknown any other reality. And
there's also these other detailsin the story, I'm not going to
(15:03):
get into them, but they havecontests about what they see and
stuff like that. Just imaginethat one person gets forcibly
dragged out of the cave. Andfirst, they're confused, because
they see the puppets and thefire on their way out. And
they're like, What was that? Idon't even know. But they just
keep going because they're beingpulled out. And this, my
friends, is not titration. Whenthey're pulled out into the
(15:26):
light, they're completelyblinded by first at first,
because it's so bright. And it'simpossible because the
transition is so extreme, it'simpossible for them to believe
what they see is real at first.
And I have this really strongmemory. It's this little
fragment of memory of... I thinkmaybe we went to see Indiana
Jones and the Temple of Doom, ormaybe it was Return of the Jedi.
(15:48):
I was like, eight, or somethinglike that. And it was the middle
of the day. And we walked out ofthe theater through the doors
that led directly outside. Andit was exactly this kind of
experience. I just remember itbeing in the dark, and then
being in this bright whitelight. So and Plato goes on to
describe like, how, how thesepeople would get used to it. And
(16:08):
they'd come to discover that thethings outside are real. And
then they get confused by goingback into the cave. And they'd
be like, No, it's not real, thatpeople in the cave are like,
Yes, it is. There's like thiswhole, there's this whole back
and forth here, but but we'rejust focusing on the like coming
out of the dark into the lightthe dark of the cave into the
light of day, we're trying to dothe opposite of dragging
(16:29):
somebody through, and justshoving them into the light and
saying figure it out. When youleave a movie theater, usually,
you usually go down like a darkhallway, to get out of the
theater itself, then thebrighter one with the dim light,
so so that it's not too much ofan adjustment when you go back
into the theater, if you aregoing like to the bathroom and
(16:50):
coming back, and then you gointo the lobby, and a lot of the
time the lobby has big tintedwindows, so there's lots of
light coming in, and then you gooutside, and it might still be
bright. But it's not like thisglary intense light. Because
that is disconcerting. And it'sa huge stress on our nervous
system. Instead, we're walkingdown the hallway of liberation
(17:13):
for our whole lives. It's aprocess. So yes, we're walking
toward the, quote, unquote,light. And we're not in any rush
to get there at all. And we arein a rush, right? It is urgent,
(17:33):
it is important. Liberationmatters for all of us. But we're
not putting that layer ofurgency, that means we have to
rip ourselves through it. Ifthat makes sense.
Yeah,because that's somewhat of an
imposed urgency than isn't it?
Right? Because that's sort oflike a systems of oppression
(17:55):
thing. I feel like that's alittle bit of capitalism, that's
a little bit of everything inthere, this, "go and get it
done" quickly thing. And I wantto just lift up that sentence a
little bit more. We're walkingtoward the light. And we're not
in any rush to get there. Wehear all the time, that life is
a journey, and what's the rush,let's stop and smell the roses
(18:16):
and enjoy these moments. And,you know, those words are
beautiful and inspiring. Andthere's a real practical aspect
that can get missed. And I thinkthis can be especially true for
trauma survivors who have beenmay have been in crisis to
crisis to crisis and do haveexhausted nervous systems, you
know, so it's like, okay, let'sall stop and smell the roses and
(18:38):
pause. Well, practicallyspeaking, how do we do that?
Larissa Parson (18:42):
Yes. Hmm.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (18:45):
So the tool we're talking about is
small steps or titration. Wehave to ease into this idea of
the long walk out of the cave.
We have to meander through thehallway in the theater, passing
from space to space, graduallygoing towards more of the
brighter light of the dayoutside. But we're used to
running sprints, right? We'reused to really taking off at a
(19:07):
breakneck pace, and then alsobeing praised when we do that
breakneck pace. So that'sanother tricky piece. So small
steps and titration are waysthat we can get used to this
idea that is sort of inspiring.
And yes, life is a journey, andwe need to stop and smell roses.
(19:29):
But how do we do that? We dothat through small steps and
titration. But I want to talk alittle bit about the other tools
that we've touched on theseason.
Larissa Parson (19:38):
Yeah. So some of the other tools that we use to
move away from white supremacyculture, and its insistence on
perfectionism and urgency, andthe capitalistic work ethic,
like all of these things thatare saying your body doesn't
matter. All of those things. Wehave joy drops, which are tiny
(20:03):
moments of pleasure, andnoticing and getting curious,
which is operating as anobserver rather than a judge.
And I really think to speakabout those two slash three
things. It's really kind ofthree. But I put noticing and
curiosity kind of in the samecategory. We're, we're just
(20:24):
taking... They're kind ofsimilar. So, but the joy drop,
we're noticing what feels good.
And what blank brings uspleasure. We're not talking
about big P pleasure. We'retalking about small simple
things. So again, small steps.
Titration. So here's my example,which is very mundane. Because I
(20:44):
knew I'd be up extra early thismorning, I pre loaded my
coffeemaker. And because mypartner's out of town, I put
some cardamom in it. So it wouldhave this slightly different
flavor. Like as if I'd gone andgot myself a fancy latte. And
then when I made my coffee, Iadded cinnamon and sugar, and
cream. And while it was stillhot from the pot, and while I
(21:08):
was working this morning, whilemy kids were sleeping, every
single-still hot, because mykids are asleep-sip of coffee
was a chance for me to enjoythat little bit of being in my
body. Like, Yes, I'm up earlierthan I went to be, yes, I am
exhausted. And this coffee iseffing delicious. It's not the
(21:33):
experience I have most days ofchugging down a rapidly cooling
cup of coffee. And it took justa little bit of forethought, but
not a lot. And I noticed that Ifelt really, really delighted by
it. Just like every little sipI'm like, Woohoo! I put cinnamon
in my coffee today. And it'sjust a little thrill. So that
(21:58):
choice to do that came out ofcuriosity, what would make
tomorrow morning better.
And then so to talk a little bitmore about curiosity, instead of
immediately assuming that weknow the answer, or the right
thing, it's about sitting with aquestion and getting curious,
like, maybe thinking, Oh, I'llenjoy brewing some tea, or I'll
(22:20):
enjoy making some coffee or justpre grinding the coffee would
have been okay, but instead, Iwas like, what would really
light me up? So that can be soyour curiosity can be about
something like that. Do I likecinnamon my coffee? Or it could
be bigger? Does that person'spost on social media really
needs to be responded to by meright now? Could that be a
(22:45):
private conversation? Could thatbe something that takes more
time? Could we slow down theprocess? It's about asking
questions instead of leaping tojudgment. And so with a social
media post, for example, insteadof saying they're wrong and I
need to tell them right now howwrong they are. Which is like me
(23:07):
getting all up in my judgmentalfeelings. And it's not gonna
really resonate or really feelgood to the person receiving
that feedback, if I'm comingfrom that place. Coming from a
different place, maybe, butcoming from that place no. So
that's a practice. In ourculture, like you said, just
(23:29):
now, Elizabeth, like we're usedto being praised for running
sprints, we're conditioned toneed to know the right answer
right away. But getting to thetruth and getting to liberation
is more complex than that. Andthat's why things like I was
just gonna say, like,collaborative processes when
(23:50):
we're talking about doing socialjustice organizing work, work
really well, and they take time.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:03):
I want to add on to that bit about the
social media piece, because Iposted something in response to
someone's post that just didn'tfeel good to me. And I said,
"I'm not sure this is a fairjudgement, we don't know the
whole situation," was the bottomline of my post. And someone
messaged me, I don't know theirname. But they decided to
(24:25):
message me privately and said,"I wanted to just say this, that
we actually, we actually do knowmore. " And then shared more of
the circumstances around thesituation. I did not have the
most accurate or currentinformation about the story. And
they said, "I don't want to Idon't want to add more fuel to
(24:49):
the fire here. And I definitelydon't want it to look like I'm
calling you out. And I supportthis idea of not judging people
for their circumstances, becausewe don't know. And I still want
you to know actually, the factas how they stand now." And I
really appreciated it, Iresponded to them privately and
said, "I guess I didn't have allthe information. And thank you
so much. And I really appreciateyou messaging me and taking it
(25:12):
and having it remain at thislevel between two people." And I
feel like I was humble andapologized for, you know, not
not having all the information.
And they did the right thing.
And it felt good. They did theright thing in my mind for me.
And it felt really good torespond to them in a way that
was sort of that was calm, andmeasured in exchange for their
(25:35):
measured thoughtful statement.
And the people on the originalpost, were really slammed me and
were like, "you clearly don'tknow. And if you've read
anything you would have known".
And I was, and I came back andwas kind of abrupt with them.
And I said, "I guess there werestories that I didn't know. "
And snarky as hell was like,"y'all didn't think to share
them. So where are they anyway?"You know, so I had a really
(25:57):
different response to being kindof called out like, "you don't
even know you think you know,but you don't know." And I was
thinking, "well, that's notreally fair". But I responded
totally in kind with their tone,very aware that I was and kind
of wanted to say, what justwanted to prove myself in a way
and say, I did, here's the twostories I read. And I guess they
were not as current as I thoughtthey were. But it really, it's
(26:19):
interesting to me how we canthen respond in a way match that
response, which...
Larissa Parson (26:24):
Yep,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:25):
...in a positive or a negative.
Larissa Parson (26:27):
Yep, that's what we do. That's how we human.
Everybody's not always doingtheir best all the time.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:32):
Right.
Larissa Parson (26:33):
And it affects every single one of us every
time that we touch that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:37):
Right.
Larissa Parson (26:37):
But every time that somebody's not doing their
best at us, we don't do our bestback. And that's okay. And it's
interesting, Elizabeth, that youcan step back and look at that
and go, Look, I know that wasnot my best. And there we are. I
have different responses. Yeah.
So this really makes me feellike talking about community.
Right in here. Because we'retalking about, like, we talked
(27:00):
about community is partly yourright people, and the people
you're in right relationshipwith. But there are lots of
other people who make upcommunity. And it depends on the
context where we're talkingabout community, like Instagram
is one kind of community. Andthen you and I having
(27:21):
conversations is a differentkind of community. So how do all
of those relationships kind oflead us toward or away from
maybe liberation and joy? Hmm.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:34):
So I think of community as everybody. Yeah,
so that's like everybody, Imean, not like my community is
everyone who was part of myworld. So it's not, you know,
Vice President Kamala Harris,but it is in a way, if I follow
her on social media. So it is mykiddos, friends, parents, it's
(27:56):
people I volunteer with, if Iwent to church, it would be
church, church family, it'scertainly family of origin. It's
work colleagues, it'sprofessional associations, it's
chosen family, it's all of thesepeople, including right people,
and right relationships. Andbecause our community is large,
and it includes so many people,including our social media
(28:20):
people, it's really importantthat we do have those right
people and those rightrelationships, right, because
they balance the rest ofeveryone else.
Larissa Parson (28:30):
Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:31):
We have toxic family that we cannot end
a relationship with, forwhatever reason. And that is
(28:57):
very true for some people,especially for some trauma
survivors, for whatever reason,multiple reasons, very valid
(29:21):
So, circling back to the cave,right? We need other people to
reasons. All the more reason whywe do need right people and
Larissa Parson (29:42):
Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnso (29:44):
...possible level. This is why people come
right relationships. So when wehave our right people and our
back to a support group thatthey feel welcome and affirmed
that because they feel seen. Allof a sudden they hear a story
that is similar to theirs andthe light goes on. And they're
like, "I'm not the only one."They feel seen. They feel
(30:04):
right relationships, we betterunderstand how to move toward
validated, their nervous systemgets regulated. So we just said
get us out of the dark cave,because we're not all doing the
nervous systems are not builtfor the "wow and the how"
because whether that's the wowof big p pleasure or the wow of
moving from fire to fire,readying yourself for battle,
your right people and your rightrelationships are healing. And
liberation. They help us movetoward liberation, because they
this is not just mine andLarissa's opinion on this,
(30:27):
there's plenty of work outthere. I will, we will share in
the show notes about one of mypersonal heroes, Dr. Bruce
Perry, who talks a lot aboutthis. Shout out Bruce Perry!
are people who then can see usand raise us up for who we are
They're healing, they'revalidating, they allow you to be
seen and in turn them feelregulated, right. So there's
just to kind of like some ofyour there's a lot that we can
(30:48):
do on our own. But if all weever do is like act on behalf of
best we can and being seenregulates us. This is so crucial
ourselves without any kind ofright people, without
without having a stake in ourfailure or success or feeling so
connections to others, just withall of this influence of
community and these biggersystems of oppression on us,
we're not only going to feelreally lonely-- and not
experience the pleasure of beingwith our right people or right
(31:11):
relationships because that's sodeep and rich --we're just gonna
protective of us, they won'tallow us to move toward a place
be exhausted, in part because ofthe stress of doing it all alone
and working with other thesesystems of oppression, which is
like "you go on your own, youdon't need other people," "You
don't need other people," iswhat the systems of oppression
tell us. And we know the exactopposite is true, even though it
is not the so called "right"answer that we're taught.
(31:31):
of liberation.
on
Larissa Parson (31:36):
Yes to all of that, to all of that. One of the
things that has popped up overand over again and think piece
after think piece after thinkpiece throughout this ongoing
pandemic, is how parents,frequently and particularly
mothers, but parents in general,I will say, are overstretched.
(31:59):
And that's I know, that's anunderstatement. A big reason why
is that for most of the last twoyears, the already meager and
not enough support systems, thecommunity ties that help us kind
of limp from day to day withjust a little bit more ease,
have been strained, or evensevered. And that includes kind
(32:24):
of looking at differentfamilies, different systems like
that, like there's schools,closing, all of that kind of
stuff. Like, I just I know somany friends who had to stop
talking to their family becauseof differences around how to
handle the pandemic. So thenthere's a sense of isolation and
(32:48):
loneliness, again, and coupledwith trying to work with kids
underfoot or doing online schoolfor all of last year. But that's
been a disaster for people'ssense of community. And we don't
have communal support forraising children in this country
in a way that also supports thephysical and mental health needs
of parents. And I want to saythat because of that this does
(33:10):
not just affect parents, itaffects, it affects folks who
are not parents, too, in lots ofdifferent ways. It shows up as
like, well so and so as to takecare of the kids. So you have to
pick up the slack. And in morebroad terms, it shows up because
all of our liberation and joy isbound together whether we like
(33:30):
it or not.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:31):
That's right.
Larissa Parson (33:31):
Right. We're not supporting parents, we're also
not supporting elders. We'renot, you know, we're not holding
everybody together in a net. Sowhether we want to be in that
net or not, we are thenonexistent net. Okay, that got
away from me. You know, butthat's what it means to live in
(33:52):
a community. Right? It's to bebound together. And we thrive
together. Or not. When we makeit easy for everyone to access
what they need and what theywant. Like cinnamon in my
coffee, I don't need cinnamon inmy coffee. I just wanted it.
When we make that possible. Wemake it easier to experience joy
(34:15):
and pleasure. And that moves usall toward liberation from those
systems of oppression.
Elizabeth M. Johnso (34:25):
Absolutely.
And this is really just makingme think of adrienne maree
brown's words that we talkedabout early early, right Episode
Two on pleasure. We talked aboutbig p pleasure and joy drops.
You know, she said, "pleasure isa measure of freedom". It's a
way that we can act of our ownaccord in service to ourselves,
(34:46):
despite systems of oppressiontelling us that pleasure is
unimportant, or doesn't matter.
And of course, capitalism wouldsay that pleasure is important.
So here's this thing you need tobuy, right?
Larissa Parson (35:05):
Oh, it's really fancy cinnamon.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:08):
They're really good cinnamon, the one
that's expensive, you know? Butwe're not talking about. We're
talking about us --going back tothe noticing, right?-- noticing
what are these pieces that giveus pleasure? Because we're
noticing that they do. Beingtold this is the thing that will
(35:28):
fix it for you or will bring youpleasure.
Larissa Parson (35:31):
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
Um, let me quote myself, please.
A pleasure is it is a state ofliberation that we can access
because it can exist withinourselves, exists within
community, and it can existoutside of the systems of
oppression that deny us ourhumanity. Yes. So, yes,
(35:52):
capitalism tells you to buy thatcinnamon the really expensive
cinnamon. Yep. And so yes,systems of oppression exist. And
we can get to liberation becauseof our right people, and because
of our ability to sit with theambiguity that capitalism tells
me, I want the fancy cinnamon.
And I just have regularcinnamon, and it still tastes
good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (36:15):
Because it's cinnamon
Larissa Parson (36:16):
because it's cinnamon!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (36:17):
Right?
We're not talking aboutdifferent kinds of cheese.
[laughter] So anyway, I gotdistracted for a second, but
like it is cinnamon, right?
Like, and there may be thatperson out there who's like, oh,
yeah, this is not Madagascar.
That's vanilla. But this is thiskind of cinnamon. This is
Larissa Parson (36:32):
Ceylon! Ceylon! Yes! You know, but it's
fine. It's fine.
Yeah, I mean, so like to maybetake it away from food and
cinnamon for just a minute.
Pleasure, community, rightpeople, titration, little joy
drops. All of these things helpus sit with this dichotomy, or
(36:55):
this binary idea. Which is notabout I mean... this idea that
we don't have to be in thebinary of like, yes, systems of
oppression exist. And I'm okaywith being in this ambiguous
place. And I can have joy, evenas I resist those systems. Even
as I choose things that arepushing back against those
(37:17):
systems, I get to have joy onthe way to that because if I
don't, it's not fun. Like lifeis not good. I don't choose
that. So to back it up just alittle bit to the idea of body
liberation. And Sonya ReneeTaylor's radical self love.
Like, this is slow. Radical selflove doesn't happen at first
(37:41):
sight. titration and smallsteps, get us there slowly. But
dialing into pleasure anddialing into joy and discovering
who our right people are.
Remember, our right people feelgood to us. We feel the
(38:01):
rightness in our bodies. Knowingall that means we can get to a
sense of liberation in ourbodies. And then if we can feel
that on the individual embodiedlevel, then those ripples move
out, it becomes a lot easier toshift our focus to the culture
as a whole, it becomes a loteasier because we're like, oh,
(38:24):
okay, my body had cinnamontoday. And that felt really
good. And I want everybody tohave really good cinnamon in
their coffee if they want it.
And if they don't want it, theydon't have to have it. That's
that, like, we get to choose?
Yeah, we get to choose.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (38:40):
I get to choose.
Larissa Parson (38:41):
Um where was I gonna go with that.
I know. I'mlike, I want to have like, let's
Elizabeth M. Johnson (38:44):
I'm sorry.
talk about choice. And let'stalk autonomy.
[laughter] I justfeel really strongly, like we
get to choose! We get to choose!
Larissa Parson (38:54):
So wait, well, let's say something about that.
Because I think that's a reallyimportant part of what we've
been talking about, Elizabeth.
We get to choose and andliberation is being given a
choice. Wait, not being given.
Having a choice. And recognizingthat we have a choice. So if
we're able to get free on thatindividual level, then we
(39:18):
recognize and move to change thesystems that have been holding
us back. So if we again, if wesay oh, there's white supremacy
culture, telling me that I needto yell at this person for being
racist. Isn't that weird whitesupremacy culture is telling me
to yell at them? Yeah, so. Alittle bit of like, pause,
getting curious, do I need toyell at them? Do I need to have
(39:40):
a conversation? Is this somebodythat I need to focus on? Or is
there another way to work onchanging this particular
structural problem? Is this anindividual thing for me to do
with this one person? Maybe? Ordo I not have the resources-
internal resources, supportsystem resources- to do this
(40:01):
today. So when we are able toget curious and notice that kind
of stuff, then we get to havepleasure through our lives
daily, not just every once in awhile when we go on that big
vacation, which as we know leadsto a big letdown. Right? But
(40:23):
daily, like it gets to besomething we live. And we get to
make change, either in bigripples when we have the
capacity for it, or little tinyripples. And that's what it's
all about.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:40):
And we get to choose.
Larissa Parson (40:42):
and we get to choose.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:44):
Maybe it's a big ripple day. And maybe it's
a small ripple day. And maybe Ihave capacity to do this piece
today. But I might not at otherpoints. I think the choice piece
can be really helpful toremember, because there's going
to be a lot that we don't havechoice around.
Larissa Parson (41:03):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:03):
Because there's a lot that we don't have
choice around, it feels reallygood to have some choice around
certain things or whatever thosethings are. And for, especially
for our trauma survivors rightout there, right. Choice is
something that we have. There'scontrol there. And control is
power and power is safety formany trauma survivors. So all of
Larissa Parson (41:23):
These are choices that we can make. And
these bits are things that areoptions, right? Are choices,
yes, all of these bits, thesebig picture bits of the tools.
And that's the sum up of wherewe're at. These are choices that
we can make.
when people try to take our wayor take away our choices, we
feel powerless. So I don't know,I want to come up with something
(41:49):
brilliant, like let's get outthere and start taking our
choices back. Yes. Well, I liketo choose pleasure and choose
joy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (41:55):
Yes.
Because I think that...that's agreat sum up because it's
something that we can choose.
You know, we can choose thecinnamon in the coffee. We can
choose to do this little pieceof -- as someone said who was
listening to the podcast told me-- of taking the candle out of
the packaging, and just lightingthe candle instead of saving it
(42:15):
for a better day or a differentoccasion. Or I've always
wondered about, you know, savingthe good china. Yeah. And I'm
like, "Oh, wow, no, like, let'suse that right now. Because it's
so damn beautiful. Like, this isgorgeous. Let's use it all the
time." Or I've taken out thesweater that I especially love.
I'm not gonna save it. I'm justgonna wear it.
Larissa Parson (42:37):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:37):
Yes, let's choose pleasure.
Larissa Parson (42:40):
Let's choose pleasure.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:43):
And speaking of pleasure, let's talk
about what we're eating thisweek. And may I start? Because
clearly, I'm fixated on food. Ilike to talk about food.
Larissa Parson (42:51):
You are SO ready to talk about food. I love it.
Yes, this is a choice we get tomake. And this is, can I just
make a little tiny digressionbefore we hear about food? I'm
excited for it? Because I know alittle bit about what you're
going to talk about. I can'twait to hear about it. I mean,
can we when we're talking aboutchoice, this is one of those
places where people get intopower struggles with kids all
(43:13):
the time, because food is one ofthe things we can choose.
Everybody can choose whetherthey want whether they're going
to eat or not what's presentedto them. And yes, that what is
presented what you haveavailable to eat totally varies
on lots depends on lots ofcircumstances. Let's be real
about that. Yeah, and you get tochoose and so you are choosing
(43:34):
some delights this week. Tell meabout it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:37):
I'm in a Christmas theme. And I have many
sweets that are either at myhouse or headed my way which I'm
very much excited about. I havethese chocolate covered pretzels
that are shaped like Christmastrees that taste like mint. They
are green. It's like a chocolatethat's like dyed green or
(44:00):
something. I don't even knowwhat's going on there with the
ingredients list but they'resnappy. And they're pepperminty
and it's quite the nice littlecrisp in your mouth which I
love. I also got some cranberryorange biscotti and sometimes
biscotti can be really --I meanit should generally be crunchy
(44:20):
--but sometimes all you taste iscrunch or it tastes a little bit
like old. No no this cranberryorange biscotti is fantastic.
And I love it and I have alittle bit leftover and probably
I'm not going to be get moresadly but I'm enjoying it very
much with a little bit of tea.
And then I have coming nextweek, some gingerbread cake. I
(44:41):
know from Strong Arm though, somaybe it's not too late to have
it in your CSA. It has a lemonglaze on it. And we ordered this
last year from Strong Arm and itwas knock your socks off. And I
love gingerbread. And I don't--I love to cook and bake,--do
(45:01):
anything with dough. Dough istoo scary. So I do nothing with
dough. So gingerbread is nothingI will ever touch. But I'm going
to have a little bit ofgingerbread. And I'm going to
put a little bit of --Rhondafrom Chez Moi Bakery does an
incredible lemon curd. She ofthe famous rum cake that some of
us know in Durham. She'samazing. And she does a lemon
(45:21):
curd that is fantastic and hasan unbelievable shelf life.
--and I will put it with thegingerbread and it'll be
delightful. And that is comingmy way next.
Larissa Parson (45:32):
Mmm. That sounds delicious. I'm coming over to
your house.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:36):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (45:36):
And I'm eating all your food.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:37):
All of it.
Join me.
Larissa Parson (45:42):
So you said you do nothing with dough. I baked
bread yesterday for the firsttime in like five years. It was
a disaster.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:49):
Okay, but you tried it.
Larissa Parson (45:52):
I'm not giving up. I bought enough flour that I
can try again. So maybe one ofthe things I'll be eating is
another attempt. I think Ididn't do a good job with it. I
usually do it completely byhand. I tried to use my stand
mixer and it was just like, Ididn't know how to do it right
with that thing. So I'm gonna doit the right way. When I'm less
tired. More resourced. Let's seewhat else have I been eating?
(46:17):
Again, as always have no ideawhat's coming to me this
afternoon from the CSA. So we'llsee maybe there's gingerbread in
there. I don't know.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:24):
Maybe next week though, because mine is
coming next week.
Larissa Parson (46:27):
Oh, you know, we haven't done the holiday
ordering. Oh, yeah. So maybethat's why, mental note. Until
now. Maybe this weekend is whenI order that. Anyway, so last
weekend, though, I had afabulous food experience. And
this is one of those like, Yourright people make everything
taste better experiences.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:45):
Always.
Larissa Parson (46:46):
Right? Um, I got to meet up with one of those
people who I have both rightpeople and relationship
connections with it depends onthe context of what we're doing.
My friend Deb Malkin, who isphenomenal pain coach. She's
amazing. And we went to Nuvotacoin Durham, which I love. But I
(47:07):
never get to go and just havetacos since the pandemic
started. Because it's not likeI'm just going to Target and get
myself a taco. Because those twogo together in my brain. So I
had this fried liver taco, whichI love. I don't love liver. It's
really good for my body. My bodyreally likes it. And it was just
like, it was perfect. It was sogood. It was just-It's crispy.
(47:31):
It's very, very, very crispy. Soyou don't get that grossness.
And. And then there was like,there were these two tacos and
we were sitting in the sun. Ialso had a duck, a duck taco,
which was great. I'm sorry,vegetarians. I live with one.
I'm sorry. My body really needsmeat. But we were sitting in the
(47:52):
sun and we were having thisconversation. It was just one of
those moments where I'm like,this is almost too much fun. And
I don't care because I know thatthis is part of the wave of
being in life like, Oh, this isjust like so exquisite. I don't
want to stop that kind of fun.
And we went and got coffee atCocoa Cinnamon and walked around
(48:15):
for a while. It was like one ofthose Durham type days.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:20):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (48:21):
And it was beautiful. So that's what I was
eating and...
Elizabeth M. Johnso (48:24):
Delightful.
Larissa Parson (48:25):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:30):
Larissa and I are so grateful. And just
frankly blown away by all of thesupport that we've received from
all of you. Over the past fourmonths or three--we've been
talking about it for four months--that you have shown us. So
you've shared Wondermine. You'veturned other people on to it.
(48:52):
You follow us on social media,you've done all the things of
support. And we are so gratefuland just feel very warmed up by
all of the love that you haveshown us. So thank you. Thank
you. Thank you. I think welooked at one point --not "we"
Elizabeth -- a couple of daysago when it was over 200
(49:14):
downloads and that's so cool. Ihave no concept if that's good
or bad. We don't put any... weare non binary here we are. So,
we are not going to put it inthat kind of framework. I think
200 is a really awesome number.
And thank you all for yoursupport.
Larissa Parson (49:33):
I can't really add anything to that. Yeah, I
know it's over 200 Yeah, Ididn't. I also did not look this
morning at the crack of dawn tosee because I was busy with my
coffee. But thank you all somuch for listening and for all
of your feedback. And yes, wegot that message that you want
us to do a books episode. It'scoming. It's in the works. It's
(49:55):
gonna happen. Yeah. 2022Sometime Yeah, yep, teaser. So
yes. So,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:03):
Love it.
We are grateful every time youshare Wondermine with friends.
Follow us on Instagram atWonderminepodcast, write us a
review and that will help othersfind us.
Larissa Parson (50:15):
Yep. And we're just so delighted you've been
listening. If you want to findout when that episode's gonna
come out you better keepfollowing us over there on
Instagram. And that's all we gotto say today. Thank you all so
much for listening
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.