April 26, 2022 • 36 mins
Welcome back to another season of Wondermine! For Season Two, we're talking about things we don't talk about...and why we don't talk about them. Episode One: Elizabeth and Larissa share why they're focusing on this theme.
Show notes:
Johann Hari’s newest book “Stolen Focus”
Dread Nation by Justina Ireland
“Marriage Requires Amnesia.” by Heather Havrilesky
Foreverland, Heather Havrilesky
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:02):
Welcome to Wondermine, Season Two. I'm
Larissa Parson, I'm a joy coach,a movement teacher, a writer and
podcaster, a mom to twins, a bitof a hippie and maybe it is a
lot to just be all of thosethings.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:19):
I think it is a lot. I'm Elizabeth M
Johnson. I'm a parent, apartner, a rape survivor and
writer. I talk and write aboutrelationships, trauma and
decision making.
Larissa Parson (00:32):
And if you are new here, Hello. We are the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the Wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:52):
If you would like to support the show,
thank you. You can do that byvisiting patreon.com/wondermine.
And if you don't want to, that'sokay, too. We're just glad
you're here.
So today, the first episode ofthe second season, we are I feel
like we need to celebrate that alittle bit. Like
(01:14):
I wanted to do something butlike it was in your it was in
your intro, so I kind of heldmyself back from my like, big
whoop of cheer.
I don't know if we thought therewas going to be a second season.
But I think halfway through thefirst one we decided there had
to be. So yeah, here we are.
(01:34):
Yes. And thanks to all of thosepeople out there who have
encouraged us to do a secondseason who have continually
reached out and said that theywere listening and that they
shared the podcast. That reallymeans a lot to us and absolutely
influenced us wanting to gettogether and plan a season two.
So here we are.
Larissa Parson (01:51):
And here we are.
So exciting. Thank you,everyone. So, today we are going
to be getting pretty meta. Weare talking about what we don't
talk about and why.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:07):
{Elizabeth imitating Jaws theme music}
That's my doomsday music.
Clearly I have a limited range.
Although maybe doomsday music isnot what should come to mind.
I don't know. Hmm. We'll see bythe end of the episode, maybe
or the end of the season
Larissa Parson (02:27):
or the end of the season! Oh my gosh. Yes.
Right. Yes. Yes. That's asecret. Okay, before we get
started. Let's talk about whatwe are reading. Elizabeth, what
are you reading? Because this isour thing. We got to start with
what we're reading.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:44):
Yes. So every episode, we start with
what we're reading, and we endwith what we're eating. And so I
am reading Johann Hari's newestbook, Stolen Focus: Why You
Can't Pay Attention And How toThink Deeply Again. This is
(03:04):
Hari's third book. I did notread this first one, which talks
about the war on drugs. I didlove and highly recommend his
second one, Lost Connections,about the roots of addiction. I
feel like Hari has had his focusstolen here. I hate to be making
(03:25):
these really bad puns, but thisbook is not as tight as his
previous books. That said,there's a lot of really great
stuff in here. And he goes deepinto the idea of why we as a
culture are having a harder timefocusing than ever. Spoiler,
it's not just technology,although that is a factor. The
(03:46):
attention issue hasprogressively gotten worse
through the decades.
One of the things that I doreally like about Hari is that
he consistently shows up in hisbooks. He does have a real sort
of sense of humility abouthimself. He *is* a white male,
but not American. And I thinkthat helps. He is also not
(04:10):
someone who comes from a veryprivileged background. And so he
often talks about himselfsaying, "I'm as guilty as the
next person of being on my phonefor hours a day," or "I'm as
guilty as the next person of notbuilding community,". So he does
(04:30):
bring himself into the book in avery strong way. I think that's
pretty unusual, especially fornonfiction writers, especially
for men. People who writenonfiction seem to think that
this (bringing themelf into thebook) is going to discredit
their their work. I could notdisagree more. So one of the
(04:51):
things I do like about Hari isthat he's in there and he's
really, he's really honest aboutwho he is and where he is in
this piece that he's strugglingwith, or that he's studying.
I recommend with somereservation. It's not his
strongest, but there are solidaspects to it. He's got some
(05:20):
pieces in there that we can do.
But also he does a really nicejob of acknowledging the
systemic issues that are gettingin the way. He is not a parent,
he is not a partner but heincludes those perspectives in
different ways, for example. Andhe interviews people who ask him
to consider what the solutionwould be for the person who was
working three jobs? He could dothat way better, of course, but
(05:44):
it is in there. So somethingthat might be of interest.
Larissa Parson (05:52):
Cool. Um, I can tell you all right, now that I
will probably continue to getthe Cliff's Notes from Elizabeth
about it, because of myinability to focus on nonfiction
for very long, but it soundslike I mean, it sounds like it's
a really interesting book, andthat it has some useful
practical things. Also, ifremembering correctly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:12):
Which is not always common, frankly. I
feel like this is one of mybeefs that I often have with
nonfiction. There's this reallyincredible work that's extremely
well resourced. And then at theend, there's maybe a couple of
pages of solutions or ideas. Andthat's weak, in my mind. Hari is
(06:35):
very clear about what he did andhow it helped him. *And* he
discusses bigger pieces that wereally need to be looking at
structurally.
Larissa Parson (06:43):
Cool. Very cool.
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:45):
What about you?
Larissa Parson (06:46):
Ah, so I have about 1000 books going right
now, including some nonfictionthat I kind of really slowly,
like, keep putting on my to dolist read two chapters of and
then not reading. That's okay.
It's there. It's like in my facenext to my bed. My main read
right now is 'Dread Nation' byJustina Ireland. And so far I'm
(07:09):
about a quarter of the waythrough it is a compelling YA
story about a black girltraining to fight zombies in
post Civil War-ish America, itmostly seems like the zombies
would won the war. And, andslavery gets outlawed or not
(07:33):
outlawed. That's not the rightword - stops or ends because of
the war, but there is still areally, really very clear
delineation and societal rolesbetween races. And they're like
all kinds of political parties.
You can see a lot of allegory inthere to post 2017 America. You
(07:58):
can see, like, there's a stillthere's just a lot that I'm
like, hmmm. Or really actuallyany pick a year America, to be
quite honest. But some of itseems to be referring to things
that I can't tell you what yearwas published. So, you know, go
do your own research about whatit could actually be about. It's
(08:19):
enjoyable. It's a really funread. I like the main character.
Zombies aren't really one of thetropes that I love a lot. I tend
to go for more like vampires,witches, fairies, and stuff like
that. But it's an interesting,it's an interesting choice and
(08:41):
makes for some reallyinteresting opportunities in
terms of talking about thingslike contagion and plague, and
how we wall ourselves off fromdifferent things, and who do we
protect? And who does theprotecting? Whom do we protect?
And all of that, so it's areally interesting book from
(09:03):
that perspective, as well. SoI'm enjoying it. It's a good
read.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:07):
Is this the first book that you've read
from this person?
Larissa Parson (09:10):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:11):
Okay.
Yeah, I will say I picked it upmy, my friend, I went to book
club a few weeks ago, my friendhad this book on her table, and
she's like, I got this out ofthe little free library, and it
was really good. Do you want toread it? And I was like, Oh,
I'll get that from the libraryonto my Kindle. So I'll actually
(09:33):
I'm actually not sure we've hadtwo, as different books we've
read it but yes, I would love toread it. So yeah, okay.
been reading as we have rightnow. I'm not sure these could be
any more different, frankly. Sothat may be our challenge for
future episodes, but these areextremely different and details
(09:53):
in the show notes. I'm justmarveling at that...that big
difference here. So, let's getback to talking about things we
don't talk about and why.
Larissa, do you want to talk alittle bit about where this
topic came from?
Larissa Parson (10:12):
Sure, sure. I feel like I have to acknowledge
that today's episode is a reallygood example of how different
our literary tastes are. So,back to the topic. We came up
with this topic or this ideawhen an excerpt from Heather
(10:37):
Havrilesky's book Foreverland,was published in the New York
Times with the title, "MarriageRequires Amnesia". And there
were so many different responsesto this piece from all over the
internet, and every person thatI talked to who'd read it had a
different take on it. Reallythere were two main takes like,
(11:00):
'Oh, she hates her husband somuch she should divorce him' or
'no, this is a sweet and lovingportrait of a marriage'. So, it
was like how awful it was, orhow hilarious and true it was.
And it really depended on whoyou were and your perspective on
things and your sense of like,how do the things that we feel
(11:21):
and the way that we talk aboutthings matter when we read
things and think about people inour lives? I don't know if
that's a really clear way ofputting that but like, you know,
do we value sincerity andearnestness when we talk about
relationships or do we have tostep back a little bit and be
sarcastic and removed in orderto show love. So anyway, there
(11:49):
was even a long piece about hownobody close reads anymore. And
it kind of centered actually, onthis, this excerpt. And it was a
big long argument that basicallyno one understands how tone
works anymore. Like we don't gettone. And it's true that it is
sometimes hard to read for tone,especially online, especially
(12:09):
scrolling on your phone,especially with 500 other things
distracting you. Sure, I willgrant that. But I think what was
really interesting to me andElizabeth, as we were reading
all of these things, and textingthis link, and that link, and
the other link to each other ishow in very few of these pieces
(12:31):
that were responding to thispiece that was essentially about
how it is to be in an intimaterelationship with someone for
years, how we don't talk abouthow much work goes into love and
relationships. And I'll add alittle side note here. In the
(12:53):
process of reading all of thesepieces, there was also kind of
this pile of thoughtful whitewomen complaining about not
having enough friends, and, andhow hard friendships were. And I
feel like for me, this is all inlike one big relationships soup,
where we don't talk about thework that's involved. Yeah. And
(13:15):
so one day, Elizabeth and I wentfor a walk together. That's how
all of these episodes basicallycome about. And we were
processing all of this stuff.
And we started talking aboutwhat are the things that we
don't talk about? So literally,everything on the list we came
up with, of topics for thisseason, has an aspect of we
(13:37):
don't talk about Bruno to it. Soactually, things we don't talk
about is going to be the themewe come back to over and over
throughout the season.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:53):
So we're gonna talk about actual subjects
we don't talk about, like....
Larissa Parson (14:01):
shame and stigma, desire and ambition,
family. And we're going to talkabout topics that we used to not
talk about, that we do talkabout now. Things like abortion,
politics, rape, and how thatevolution in what we talk about
(14:23):
has changed both the dialoguethat we have, and how people who
have something to say about anyof these topics are seen by
others of us. And I think thatgoes right back to how people
think about Havrilesky. Is thatright?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:40):
Yeah, But we're also going to zoom
out. And we're going to look atthe structural pieces that
disrupt our ability and desireto talk about hard things,
because that feels reallyimportant to both of us to
consistently go back to thesesystems that we live, work and
play under that influence thedecisions we make. So obviously,
(15:01):
what we decided to talk about isa decision we make. So this is
one piece of this thing thatwe've talked about before that I
call a lasagna. And this is thepiece called culture. I think
we both want to just spend alittle bit of time here. Like to
consider what forces within ourculture influence what we don't
talk about, you know, like, whatdo you think about, Larissa?
(15:22):
Like, what comes to mind foryou, when I pose that question
to you?
Larissa Parson (15:28):
I mean, all of them. If you look at an
intersectionality diagram, andyou think about things like
religion, or social class oreducation level, or like pick
your thing, all of them. But Ithink that in terms of the,
(15:53):
ongoing discourse, stuff that weread, and see a lot of, I think
that the white supremacy culturecharacteristic of demanding
perfectionism, or demandingperfection, sorry,
perfectionism, expecting that weget it just right all the time.
And therefore the other peopleget it right all the time has a
(16:15):
lot to do with this. There'sjust a lot in there. The idea
that there's only one white -one white, that was a Freudian
slip worth making - one RIGHTway to do things! (laughter)
like talk about your marriage,or one right way to have a
(16:39):
family, or one right way to bein your body. And then like,
again, I'm just going right downthe list in my head of white
supremacy, culturecharacteristics here. Urgency.
Not only does it have to happenone right way, but it needs to
be like yesterday. And then theother thing that I think about a
(17:02):
lot when we talk about what wetalk about, and what we don't
talk about, is the expectationor the idea. And I feel like
it's kind of wrapped intoperfectionism a little bit, that
no one ever changes. So thatyour mistakes from 30 years ago,
are exactly who you are now,which I would like to think is
(17:24):
not true. Because I, I wouldlike to think that, you know, we
are capable of growth andchange. And it's more complex
than that. Because clearly,like, I am still the bookish
girl who I woke up this morningsleeping on top of my Kindle,
and I used to sleep with booksin my bed all the time. You
know, it's not like I changed inthat way. But I would like to
(17:45):
think that my ideas and myability to see other
perspectives has changed since Iwas eight. And and then finally,
I would say capitalism is a biginfluence here, too. Like the
idea that, well, there's asolution to your problem and if
you spend your money on it, thenthe solution will just magically
(18:06):
change your life. And so then wedon't actually need to talk
about this stuff. We can justspend money on it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (18:16):
So that's just like the little snippet,
we're obviously going to talk alittle bit more, or a lot more,
about all of that in detail. ButI think it's also important to
talk about the real tiny micropieces of what it means to *not*
talk about a subject. So theseeveryday pieces of the ephemera
(18:39):
of living. Like much of the workof women behind the scenes,
risks being made invisible whenwe don't talk about it. And when
it's not talked about, it'ssometimes can be seen as
unimportant. So when we thinkabout what it means to live in a
(19:01):
space with other people, and howmuch privacy we need we should
consider do we really have tospeak freely on the phone to
someone? Is it any wonder thatwe do default to texting when we
can be more honest in that text,because it's only intended for
(19:22):
the other person. Whereas if wewere to speak some of these
words, it could be overheard bysomeone in our family who might
take it the wrong way who mightsee as overstepping or -- as
something comes back from a lotof trauma survivors I've talked
to -- spilling family businesswhich should stays within the
family. So that's just oneexample.
(19:46):
But also, what does it mean tofeel to be in this space of
literally just not having thetime to talk about a hard thing?
I mean, how many of us knowsomeone who has time carved out
with a therapist on a regularbasis, because literally, that's
the only time that they have totalk about the hard thing,
because they have to keep thingstogether for their family, or
(20:08):
they have to kind of keep themat an even point so they can do
X, Y, and Z. So they cancontinue to function in the way
that they're expected tofunction. So the micro pieces of
what's involved when we talkabout certain things, or don't
talk about certain things, isreally an important piece to
(20:32):
consider.
Larissa Parson (20:34):
Absolutely. And I want to go back to your, your
discussion or your your pointsabout when we don't talk about
things, we risk them beinginvisible. And what immediately
came to mind, and you touched onthis a little bit, but I want to
just like highlight it again, ishow, again, piles of think
(20:56):
pieces, just piles of them,about emotional labor, and care
work and the mental load are,you know, their efforts to make
those things visible. This workthat is done often
uncompensated, often behind thescenes, often at the cost of
your own sense of self, orpeace. And, I think it's great
(21:25):
that people are surfacing all ofthis stuff. But are the right
people hearing it? Are the rightpeople seeing it? When we only
talk about it over in thislittle box on the side is it
getting front and center for thepeople who need to really see
and hear things? I think, forme, that's part of the micro
stuff. How do we talk aboutthings so that everyone can hear
(21:47):
them? And then the flip side ofthat is, like you said, and
sometimes it's safer in a textmessage. Sometimes it's safer in
the group chat. Sometimes it'ssafer to just blow off steam,
and then figure out how tosurface it and make it visible
in another way. And yeah, Idon't know. The other thing I
jotted down a note was notfeeling like you have the time
(22:10):
to talk about something hard,like keeping it in the text,
keeping it in the group chat. Iwas just like, my kids have
supersonic hearing, but onlywhen we're talking about
something that they don't thinkthey need to care about. But
like maybe they should, but ithas nothing to do with them.
Like, we'll be talking about, Idon't know, some random factoid
(22:34):
from the news. And they'll belike, what, but if we're saying,
hey, it's time to get ready forbed or like, I don't hear you.
Yeah, so. So yeah. Anyway. Ithink that is part of the
picture when we talk about nothaving the time to talk about
something hard, because thereare kids with supersonic
hearing. There aren't safeplaces to talk sometimes. And
(23:00):
there's just a lot to considerthere.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:06):
I like what you're saying, especially
around how do we talk aboutthings so people outside of our
box, or sphere or worldexperience, lived experience can
hear them? I feel like that's,in many ways, the million dollar
question. Because when we thinkabout who needs to hear some of
(23:30):
these things, they are notnecessarily the people that
we're in front of on a regularbasis.
And so howdo we? And maybe it's not on us,
Larissa Parson (23:36):
Right.
and maybe sometimes it's on us,maybe it's a "yes/and" maybe
sometimes it's on us, and maybesometimes it's not on us, to be
louder. Or to be in a spacewhere we are not normally
showing up in a space. But Ithink that's a really crucial
point. Because I do thinkthere's a lot of value in saying
(24:00):
these things and havingconversations that are hard to
talk about, or that have beentraditionally hard to talk
about. And there's a lot ofvalue in other people coming
along. And how do we get themalong with us.
Yeah, and thatseems like a big conversation in
a way about what does allyshipmean? What does what does it
mean to support and I want tosay extend and expand a
(24:26):
movement, really?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:28):
That's nice.
Larissa Parson (24:30):
Yeah, yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:32):
This is making my heart very full and I
was like, "Okay, this is why I'mnot watching these hearings,"
because I'd be crying my headoff the whole time. So watching
Cory Booker, and hearing thewords that he said to Judge
Jackson. The piece that I sawflips from her to him and
(25:01):
back--, it's like a minute and ahalf long--but she kind of goes
for this little tissue and hasit in her hand. And I'm like,
"where are the Kleenex?!"because I see him show up for
her in a way that's so strong,and loud and visible. This is
allyship and beauty andrecognizing someone's power, and
(25:25):
grace. It just felt reallyemotional to watch that.
Larissa Parson (25:30):
Mm hmm. You're saying that makes me think that
maybe it's about how do we showup for each other? And how do we
create space for each other? Howdo we hold each other's hands
through tough stuff? Okay,before we get completely down
(25:56):
this rabbit hole, I'm gonna justdraw back a little bit. I'm
gonna pull us back just a littlebit, though, because I think
this is completely relevant towhat you were just saying, like,
in some ways. So I want to bringin this idea that and there are
lots of exceptions to this, forsure. Especially if you read a
(26:19):
lot of memoir, which I don't,but, but some people do is that,
but when we think about like,the big picture, arcs of stories
that we tell about things aboutwhat we want to change, or how
we want to feel or how we wantto be, we tend to skip over when
(26:40):
we're like, designing thatvision, the mess in the middle.
And, I will say that like okayto make a Marvel movie reference
here. There's a lot of messymiddle in some of the Marvel
movies. There's a whole lot ofmessy, but then the good guys
win a lot. You know, but there'sthere is there's definitely like
(27:00):
if you follow some charactersarcs, you can see that actual
messy, I'm making mistakes,development. I mean, yeah,
anyway, there's this whole I'mnot gonna get off onto that
topic. But I was just thinkingabout it the other day. What
what people want a lot of thetime is a heroic journey, where
we kind of just get through theunderworld really fast.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:22):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (27:23):
But that's where the solutions happen and where
the change happens. You can'tcome out the other side without
going through. So sometimes themessy stuff, I wouldn't want to
equate committee meetings withthe underworld, but kinda.
That's the messy stuff where weshow up and we listen, and we
think and we ponder solutions,and we problem solve together.
(27:46):
And we have to come to some sortof agreement, making deliberate
connections with friends makingthe effort to make those
deliberate, deliberateconnections with friends,
showing up for therapy. Right,just going to therapy, and
making it a thing that is onyour calendar. That's the messy
(28:06):
middle stuff, because I can'tsay how many therapy sessions
I've left where my therapist hassaid, "Well, I really hate to
leave this just kind of hanging,but we got to go", and I'm like
'aaaah, Why it is always likethis?'
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:21):
Uh huh.
Larissa Parson (28:22):
The daily practice of showing up in the
ways we want to show up is notalways tidy. Sometimes it's
messy. Sometimes we drop balls.
Sometimes we forget things. Andwe just keep trying to show up
and show up and show up. So thatstuff is not glamorous. But
that's where the change happensand where the magic is.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:50):
I like the idea. This idea of the messy
middle is super important. And Ifeel it's glazed over in so many
think-pieces, in so many books,and everything else and
wherever. I feel like thishappens a lot. We want the
(29:10):
heroic journey. And sometimes Iwonder if we really want that.
Or if we're told that we wantthat. Mm hmm. Because really,
what I want from my therapist,for example, the person that I'm
(29:31):
spending time with is to seethem as a person.
Larissa Parson (29:33):
Yeah
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:34):
To be as vulnerable as I am.
Larissa Parson (29:36):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:36):
And in order to see that, you've got to
show me the messy middle.
Larissa Parson (29:41):
Yes. Elizabeth, I love that so much. I love that
so much. I think you're exactlyright that we are told that this
is what we want. The this is howmarketing works. Oh, this thing
is bad. Here's your pain. Here'sthe solution. We skip the
middle. But that's like, not howthe process works. And that's
(30:06):
yeah. And yes, I want to see youin your fullness, in your
totality, which means messy isgoing to be part of it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:20):
And I want that messy. I want this to be
super crystal clear to anyonelistening: I'm here for the
messy.
Larissa Parson (30:27):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:28):
I'm not here for the small talk. I'm not
here for the tidy wrap up. Thattells me nothing about you. I'm
here for the messy part. Andyeah, it's gonna be messy. And
that's okay. And that's what I'mhere for.
Larissa Parson (30:40):
Yes. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:44):
Um, should we close with what we're eating?
Like little bit of a rough?
Larissa Parson (30:50):
That's a jump (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:51):
....rough, rough segue from Elizabeth
here.(Larissa's gorgeouslaughter)
Larissa Parson (30:59):
sure.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:01):
There's a lot of other places we could go
with this. I know that we willgo there. And I think this is
maybe a good time to transitionto what we are eating because
there's a lot of stuff thatwe're going to talk about. I
think this is going to be a goodplace to sort of pause us.
Larissa Parson (31:18):
I think you're right. We're gonna dig in so
much more into so many things.
This season that I think pausinghere, wrapping it up would be a
great idea. Do want me to tellyou about what I'm thinking
about when I think about food?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:36):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (31:37):
Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:37):
Yes. What are you eating?
Larissa Parson (31:39):
I had the most amazing bowl of berries the
other night I was sitting therejust like humming to myself
about how good they were. Andyou know, you know how it is
with berries around here. Likesometimes they're good and
sometimes they're mediocre.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:53):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (31:54):
These were fabulous. And they were just
like a bowl of blueberries andraspberries just from the co op.
Nothing on top of them, justlike in the bowl eating them
with my fingers. My body thoughtthat was too many berries the
next day we were not happy but Iam still thinking about the
deliciousness. And I'm like canI have a smaller bowl of berries
today?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:16):
Yes
Larissa Parson (32:17):
So that is my plan is to go get a handful of
berries this afternoon or maybein five minutes and enjoy the
heck out of them.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:25):
I love that. Raspberries are one of my
--I don't know if I'd reallycall it like a "desert island
food" --but it's one of thosetop five foods I can eat for the
rest of my life. Raspberries arelike number two for me. I'm
eating cheese, (Larissalaughter), cheese and more
(32:46):
cheese in my house right now.
Larissa Parson (32:52):
That's such an Elizabeth comment. I love it. I
love it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:55):
Dairy, all the dairy. Some people crave
beef. It's cheese for me. I'mlike "did I have any cheese
today? If so when was that?"Because it like a long time ago.
So specifically, I'm on Brie.
And at a different meal I'm ontopimento cheese, which is one of
(33:19):
my favorites. And I eat pimentocheese like I just got here
basically because I'd never seenpimento cheese in the Northeast.
And so as soon as I discoveredit, it was like a biscuit and
pimento cheese. I'm like "whatheaven is this?" Oh my gosh. So
my favorite pimento cheese isthe green hatch, chili pimento
(33:40):
cheese that LocoPops stocks. Ithink it actually arrives on
Thursday. So I may be thereshortly. It's got heat, but it's
also creamy. And it's also--just the aesthetic of food
never fails to like just make mea little weak-- it's just
gorgeous in the container, aswirly green in there. And it's
(34:05):
real light and it's just lovely.
So it's not even a pint. It's ahalf pint container. But you
don't need a ton. Just multipledays in a row. And then you're
all set. So, good. So good.
Larissa Parson (34:21):
I had a pimento cheese week last week. It was
great.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:25):
Oh, so great.
Larissa Parson (34:28):
So good. Yes.
Well, on that delicious note.
We're gonna thank everyone forlistening. And Elizabeth, is it
okay, if I throw a plug for mywork in here?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:41):
Please do.
Larissa Parson (34:42):
Alright, so if you want to put some of this
theory into action, like if youwant to talk about the things
that we don't talk about, I hosttwo weekly group conversations
in the Slow Burn, which is mymembership space, where we talk
about the how of all of this Andwe practice some of the how in
other sessions. So it is a placeto be witnessed in your messy
(35:06):
middle. And if you are curiousabout it, head over to
community.larissaparson.com. Andyou can read more.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:17):
If we can't remember you can go to
larissaparson.com and we canfigure it out
Larissa Parson (35:21):
Yes, you can.
Okay? Yes. Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:24):
So it's this rare place that exists to
hold space and even celebratethe messy middle, so important
for all of us. Thank you,Larissa.
Larissa Parson (35:34):
Thank you. And if you'd like to support our
work here on the podcast, youcan go to
patreon.com/wondermine, whereyou'll have access to our bonus
episodes, and whatever otherawesomeness Elizabeth and I come
up with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:54):
Which is substantial usually.
Larissa Parson (35:56):
It's a lot.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:57):
Yeah, yeah, it is. And we are so
grateful every time you shareWondermine with friends, that
means so much to us. Writing usa review, or just clicking five
stars on your podcast app willhelp others find their "wow" and
"how" of a life rooted incuriosity, community and
(36:17):
liberation.
Larissa Parson (36:18):
And until the next episode, you can follow us
@wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thanks again. We are sodelighted you're listening.
Welcome to Wondermine, Season Two. I'm
Larissa Parson, I'm a joy coach,a movement teacher, a writer and
podcaster, a mom to twins, a bitof a hippie and maybe it is a
lot to just be all of thosethings.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:19):
I think it is a lot. I'm Elizabeth M
Johnson. I'm a parent, apartner, a rape survivor and
writer. I talk and write aboutrelationships, trauma and
decision making.
Larissa Parson (00:32):
And if you are new here, Hello. We are the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the Wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:52):
If you would like to support the show,
thank you. You can do that byvisiting patreon.com/wondermine.
And if you don't want to, that'sokay, too. We're just glad
you're here.
So today, the first episode ofthe second season, we are I feel
like we need to celebrate that alittle bit. Like
(01:14):
I wanted to do something butlike it was in your it was in
your intro, so I kind of heldmyself back from my like, big
whoop of cheer.
I don't know if we thought therewas going to be a second season.
But I think halfway through thefirst one we decided there had
to be. So yeah, here we are.
(01:34):
Yes. And thanks to all of thosepeople out there who have
encouraged us to do a secondseason who have continually
reached out and said that theywere listening and that they
shared the podcast. That reallymeans a lot to us and absolutely
influenced us wanting to gettogether and plan a season two.
So here we are.
Larissa Parson (01:51):
And here we are.
So exciting. Thank you,everyone. So, today we are going
to be getting pretty meta. Weare talking about what we don't
talk about and why.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:07):
{Elizabeth imitating Jaws theme music}
That's my doomsday music.
Clearly I have a limited range.
Although maybe doomsday music isnot what should come to mind.
I don't know. Hmm. We'll see bythe end of the episode, maybe
or the end of the season
Larissa Parson (02:27):
or the end of the season! Oh my gosh. Yes.
Right. Yes. Yes. That's asecret. Okay, before we get
started. Let's talk about whatwe are reading. Elizabeth, what
are you reading? Because this isour thing. We got to start with
what we're reading.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:44):
Yes. So every episode, we start with
what we're reading, and we endwith what we're eating. And so I
am reading Johann Hari's newestbook, Stolen Focus: Why You
Can't Pay Attention And How toThink Deeply Again. This is
(03:04):
Hari's third book. I did notread this first one, which talks
about the war on drugs. I didlove and highly recommend his
second one, Lost Connections,about the roots of addiction. I
feel like Hari has had his focusstolen here. I hate to be making
(03:25):
these really bad puns, but thisbook is not as tight as his
previous books. That said,there's a lot of really great
stuff in here. And he goes deepinto the idea of why we as a
culture are having a harder timefocusing than ever. Spoiler,
it's not just technology,although that is a factor. The
(03:46):
attention issue hasprogressively gotten worse
through the decades.
One of the things that I doreally like about Hari is that
he consistently shows up in hisbooks. He does have a real sort
of sense of humility abouthimself. He *is* a white male,
but not American. And I thinkthat helps. He is also not
(04:10):
someone who comes from a veryprivileged background. And so he
often talks about himselfsaying, "I'm as guilty as the
next person of being on my phonefor hours a day," or "I'm as
guilty as the next person of notbuilding community,". So he does
(04:30):
bring himself into the book in avery strong way. I think that's
pretty unusual, especially fornonfiction writers, especially
for men. People who writenonfiction seem to think that
this (bringing themelf into thebook) is going to discredit
their their work. I could notdisagree more. So one of the
(04:51):
things I do like about Hari isthat he's in there and he's
really, he's really honest aboutwho he is and where he is in
this piece that he's strugglingwith, or that he's studying.
I recommend with somereservation. It's not his
strongest, but there are solidaspects to it. He's got some
(05:20):
pieces in there that we can do.
But also he does a really nicejob of acknowledging the
systemic issues that are gettingin the way. He is not a parent,
he is not a partner but heincludes those perspectives in
different ways, for example. Andhe interviews people who ask him
to consider what the solutionwould be for the person who was
working three jobs? He could dothat way better, of course, but
(05:44):
it is in there. So somethingthat might be of interest.
Larissa Parson (05:52):
Cool. Um, I can tell you all right, now that I
will probably continue to getthe Cliff's Notes from Elizabeth
about it, because of myinability to focus on nonfiction
for very long, but it soundslike I mean, it sounds like it's
a really interesting book, andthat it has some useful
practical things. Also, ifremembering correctly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:12):
Which is not always common, frankly. I
feel like this is one of mybeefs that I often have with
nonfiction. There's this reallyincredible work that's extremely
well resourced. And then at theend, there's maybe a couple of
pages of solutions or ideas. Andthat's weak, in my mind. Hari is
(06:35):
very clear about what he did andhow it helped him. *And* he
discusses bigger pieces that wereally need to be looking at
structurally.
Larissa Parson (06:43):
Cool. Very cool.
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:45):
What about you?
Larissa Parson (06:46):
Ah, so I have about 1000 books going right
now, including some nonfictionthat I kind of really slowly,
like, keep putting on my to dolist read two chapters of and
then not reading. That's okay.
It's there. It's like in my facenext to my bed. My main read
right now is 'Dread Nation' byJustina Ireland. And so far I'm
(07:09):
about a quarter of the waythrough it is a compelling YA
story about a black girltraining to fight zombies in
post Civil War-ish America, itmostly seems like the zombies
would won the war. And, andslavery gets outlawed or not
(07:33):
outlawed. That's not the rightword - stops or ends because of
the war, but there is still areally, really very clear
delineation and societal rolesbetween races. And they're like
all kinds of political parties.
You can see a lot of allegory inthere to post 2017 America. You
(07:58):
can see, like, there's a stillthere's just a lot that I'm
like, hmmm. Or really actuallyany pick a year America, to be
quite honest. But some of itseems to be referring to things
that I can't tell you what yearwas published. So, you know, go
do your own research about whatit could actually be about. It's
(08:19):
enjoyable. It's a really funread. I like the main character.
Zombies aren't really one of thetropes that I love a lot. I tend
to go for more like vampires,witches, fairies, and stuff like
that. But it's an interesting,it's an interesting choice and
(08:41):
makes for some reallyinteresting opportunities in
terms of talking about thingslike contagion and plague, and
how we wall ourselves off fromdifferent things, and who do we
protect? And who does theprotecting? Whom do we protect?
And all of that, so it's areally interesting book from
(09:03):
that perspective, as well. SoI'm enjoying it. It's a good
read.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:07):
Is this the first book that you've read
from this person?
Larissa Parson (09:10):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:11):
Okay.
Yeah, I will say I picked it upmy, my friend, I went to book
club a few weeks ago, my friendhad this book on her table, and
she's like, I got this out ofthe little free library, and it
was really good. Do you want toread it? And I was like, Oh,
I'll get that from the libraryonto my Kindle. So I'll actually
(09:33):
I'm actually not sure we've hadtwo, as different books we've
read it but yes, I would love toread it. So yeah, okay.
been reading as we have rightnow. I'm not sure these could be
any more different, frankly. Sothat may be our challenge for
future episodes, but these areextremely different and details
(09:53):
in the show notes. I'm justmarveling at that...that big
difference here. So, let's getback to talking about things we
don't talk about and why.
Larissa, do you want to talk alittle bit about where this
topic came from?
Larissa Parson (10:12):
Sure, sure. I feel like I have to acknowledge
that today's episode is a reallygood example of how different
our literary tastes are. So,back to the topic. We came up
with this topic or this ideawhen an excerpt from Heather
(10:37):
Havrilesky's book Foreverland,was published in the New York
Times with the title, "MarriageRequires Amnesia". And there
were so many different responsesto this piece from all over the
internet, and every person thatI talked to who'd read it had a
different take on it. Reallythere were two main takes like,
(11:00):
'Oh, she hates her husband somuch she should divorce him' or
'no, this is a sweet and lovingportrait of a marriage'. So, it
was like how awful it was, orhow hilarious and true it was.
And it really depended on whoyou were and your perspective on
things and your sense of like,how do the things that we feel
(11:21):
and the way that we talk aboutthings matter when we read
things and think about people inour lives? I don't know if
that's a really clear way ofputting that but like, you know,
do we value sincerity andearnestness when we talk about
relationships or do we have tostep back a little bit and be
sarcastic and removed in orderto show love. So anyway, there
(11:49):
was even a long piece about hownobody close reads anymore. And
it kind of centered actually, onthis, this excerpt. And it was a
big long argument that basicallyno one understands how tone
works anymore. Like we don't gettone. And it's true that it is
sometimes hard to read for tone,especially online, especially
(12:09):
scrolling on your phone,especially with 500 other things
distracting you. Sure, I willgrant that. But I think what was
really interesting to me andElizabeth, as we were reading
all of these things, and textingthis link, and that link, and
the other link to each other ishow in very few of these pieces
(12:31):
that were responding to thispiece that was essentially about
how it is to be in an intimaterelationship with someone for
years, how we don't talk abouthow much work goes into love and
relationships. And I'll add alittle side note here. In the
(12:53):
process of reading all of thesepieces, there was also kind of
this pile of thoughtful whitewomen complaining about not
having enough friends, and, andhow hard friendships were. And I
feel like for me, this is all inlike one big relationships soup,
where we don't talk about thework that's involved. Yeah. And
(13:15):
so one day, Elizabeth and I wentfor a walk together. That's how
all of these episodes basicallycome about. And we were
processing all of this stuff.
And we started talking aboutwhat are the things that we
don't talk about? So literally,everything on the list we came
up with, of topics for thisseason, has an aspect of we
(13:37):
don't talk about Bruno to it. Soactually, things we don't talk
about is going to be the themewe come back to over and over
throughout the season.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:53):
So we're gonna talk about actual subjects
we don't talk about, like....
Larissa Parson (14:01):
shame and stigma, desire and ambition,
family. And we're going to talkabout topics that we used to not
talk about, that we do talkabout now. Things like abortion,
politics, rape, and how thatevolution in what we talk about
(14:23):
has changed both the dialoguethat we have, and how people who
have something to say about anyof these topics are seen by
others of us. And I think thatgoes right back to how people
think about Havrilesky. Is thatright?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:40):
Yeah, But we're also going to zoom
out. And we're going to look atthe structural pieces that
disrupt our ability and desireto talk about hard things,
because that feels reallyimportant to both of us to
consistently go back to thesesystems that we live, work and
play under that influence thedecisions we make. So obviously,
(15:01):
what we decided to talk about isa decision we make. So this is
one piece of this thing thatwe've talked about before that I
call a lasagna. And this is thepiece called culture. I think
we both want to just spend alittle bit of time here. Like to
consider what forces within ourculture influence what we don't
talk about, you know, like, whatdo you think about, Larissa?
(15:22):
Like, what comes to mind foryou, when I pose that question
to you?
Larissa Parson (15:28):
I mean, all of them. If you look at an
intersectionality diagram, andyou think about things like
religion, or social class oreducation level, or like pick
your thing, all of them. But Ithink that in terms of the,
(15:53):
ongoing discourse, stuff that weread, and see a lot of, I think
that the white supremacy culturecharacteristic of demanding
perfectionism, or demandingperfection, sorry,
perfectionism, expecting that weget it just right all the time.
And therefore the other peopleget it right all the time has a
(16:15):
lot to do with this. There'sjust a lot in there. The idea
that there's only one white -one white, that was a Freudian
slip worth making - one RIGHTway to do things! (laughter)
like talk about your marriage,or one right way to have a
(16:39):
family, or one right way to bein your body. And then like,
again, I'm just going right downthe list in my head of white
supremacy, culturecharacteristics here. Urgency.
Not only does it have to happenone right way, but it needs to
be like yesterday. And then theother thing that I think about a
(17:02):
lot when we talk about what wetalk about, and what we don't
talk about, is the expectationor the idea. And I feel like
it's kind of wrapped intoperfectionism a little bit, that
no one ever changes. So thatyour mistakes from 30 years ago,
are exactly who you are now,which I would like to think is
(17:24):
not true. Because I, I wouldlike to think that, you know, we
are capable of growth andchange. And it's more complex
than that. Because clearly,like, I am still the bookish
girl who I woke up this morningsleeping on top of my Kindle,
and I used to sleep with booksin my bed all the time. You
know, it's not like I changed inthat way. But I would like to
(17:45):
think that my ideas and myability to see other
perspectives has changed since Iwas eight. And and then finally,
I would say capitalism is a biginfluence here, too. Like the
idea that, well, there's asolution to your problem and if
you spend your money on it, thenthe solution will just magically
(18:06):
change your life. And so then wedon't actually need to talk
about this stuff. We can justspend money on it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (18:16):
So that's just like the little snippet,
we're obviously going to talk alittle bit more, or a lot more,
about all of that in detail. ButI think it's also important to
talk about the real tiny micropieces of what it means to *not*
talk about a subject. So theseeveryday pieces of the ephemera
(18:39):
of living. Like much of the workof women behind the scenes,
risks being made invisible whenwe don't talk about it. And when
it's not talked about, it'ssometimes can be seen as
unimportant. So when we thinkabout what it means to live in a
(19:01):
space with other people, and howmuch privacy we need we should
consider do we really have tospeak freely on the phone to
someone? Is it any wonder thatwe do default to texting when we
can be more honest in that text,because it's only intended for
(19:22):
the other person. Whereas if wewere to speak some of these
words, it could be overheard bysomeone in our family who might
take it the wrong way who mightsee as overstepping or -- as
something comes back from a lotof trauma survivors I've talked
to -- spilling family businesswhich should stays within the
family. So that's just oneexample.
(19:46):
But also, what does it mean tofeel to be in this space of
literally just not having thetime to talk about a hard thing?
I mean, how many of us knowsomeone who has time carved out
with a therapist on a regularbasis, because literally, that's
the only time that they have totalk about the hard thing,
because they have to keep thingstogether for their family, or
(20:08):
they have to kind of keep themat an even point so they can do
X, Y, and Z. So they cancontinue to function in the way
that they're expected tofunction. So the micro pieces of
what's involved when we talkabout certain things, or don't
talk about certain things, isreally an important piece to
(20:32):
consider.
Larissa Parson (20:34):
Absolutely. And I want to go back to your, your
discussion or your your pointsabout when we don't talk about
things, we risk them beinginvisible. And what immediately
came to mind, and you touched onthis a little bit, but I want to
just like highlight it again, ishow, again, piles of think
(20:56):
pieces, just piles of them,about emotional labor, and care
work and the mental load are,you know, their efforts to make
those things visible. This workthat is done often
uncompensated, often behind thescenes, often at the cost of
your own sense of self, orpeace. And, I think it's great
(21:25):
that people are surfacing all ofthis stuff. But are the right
people hearing it? Are the rightpeople seeing it? When we only
talk about it over in thislittle box on the side is it
getting front and center for thepeople who need to really see
and hear things? I think, forme, that's part of the micro
stuff. How do we talk aboutthings so that everyone can hear
(21:47):
them? And then the flip side ofthat is, like you said, and
sometimes it's safer in a textmessage. Sometimes it's safer in
the group chat. Sometimes it'ssafer to just blow off steam,
and then figure out how tosurface it and make it visible
in another way. And yeah, Idon't know. The other thing I
jotted down a note was notfeeling like you have the time
(22:10):
to talk about something hard,like keeping it in the text,
keeping it in the group chat. Iwas just like, my kids have
supersonic hearing, but onlywhen we're talking about
something that they don't thinkthey need to care about. But
like maybe they should, but ithas nothing to do with them.
Like, we'll be talking about, Idon't know, some random factoid
(22:34):
from the news. And they'll belike, what, but if we're saying,
hey, it's time to get ready forbed or like, I don't hear you.
Yeah, so. So yeah. Anyway. Ithink that is part of the
picture when we talk about nothaving the time to talk about
something hard, because thereare kids with supersonic
hearing. There aren't safeplaces to talk sometimes. And
(23:00):
there's just a lot to considerthere.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:06):
I like what you're saying, especially
around how do we talk aboutthings so people outside of our
box, or sphere or worldexperience, lived experience can
hear them? I feel like that's,in many ways, the million dollar
question. Because when we thinkabout who needs to hear some of
(23:30):
these things, they are notnecessarily the people that
we're in front of on a regularbasis.
And so howdo we? And maybe it's not on us,
Larissa Parson (23:36):
Right.
and maybe sometimes it's on us,maybe it's a "yes/and" maybe
sometimes it's on us, and maybesometimes it's not on us, to be
louder. Or to be in a spacewhere we are not normally
showing up in a space. But Ithink that's a really crucial
point. Because I do thinkthere's a lot of value in saying
(24:00):
these things and havingconversations that are hard to
talk about, or that have beentraditionally hard to talk
about. And there's a lot ofvalue in other people coming
along. And how do we get themalong with us.
Yeah, and thatseems like a big conversation in
a way about what does allyshipmean? What does what does it
mean to support and I want tosay extend and expand a
(24:26):
movement, really?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:28):
That's nice.
Larissa Parson (24:30):
Yeah, yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:32):
This is making my heart very full and I
was like, "Okay, this is why I'mnot watching these hearings,"
because I'd be crying my headoff the whole time. So watching
Cory Booker, and hearing thewords that he said to Judge
Jackson. The piece that I sawflips from her to him and
(25:01):
back--, it's like a minute and ahalf long--but she kind of goes
for this little tissue and hasit in her hand. And I'm like,
"where are the Kleenex?!"because I see him show up for
her in a way that's so strong,and loud and visible. This is
allyship and beauty andrecognizing someone's power, and
(25:25):
grace. It just felt reallyemotional to watch that.
Larissa Parson (25:30):
Mm hmm. You're saying that makes me think that
maybe it's about how do we showup for each other? And how do we
create space for each other? Howdo we hold each other's hands
through tough stuff? Okay,before we get completely down
(25:56):
this rabbit hole, I'm gonna justdraw back a little bit. I'm
gonna pull us back just a littlebit, though, because I think
this is completely relevant towhat you were just saying, like,
in some ways. So I want to bringin this idea that and there are
lots of exceptions to this, forsure. Especially if you read a
(26:19):
lot of memoir, which I don't,but, but some people do is that,
but when we think about like,the big picture, arcs of stories
that we tell about things aboutwhat we want to change, or how
we want to feel or how we wantto be, we tend to skip over when
(26:40):
we're like, designing thatvision, the mess in the middle.
And, I will say that like okayto make a Marvel movie reference
here. There's a lot of messymiddle in some of the Marvel
movies. There's a whole lot ofmessy, but then the good guys
win a lot. You know, but there'sthere is there's definitely like
(27:00):
if you follow some charactersarcs, you can see that actual
messy, I'm making mistakes,development. I mean, yeah,
anyway, there's this whole I'mnot gonna get off onto that
topic. But I was just thinkingabout it the other day. What
what people want a lot of thetime is a heroic journey, where
we kind of just get through theunderworld really fast.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:22):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (27:23):
But that's where the solutions happen and where
the change happens. You can'tcome out the other side without
going through. So sometimes themessy stuff, I wouldn't want to
equate committee meetings withthe underworld, but kinda.
That's the messy stuff where weshow up and we listen, and we
think and we ponder solutions,and we problem solve together.
(27:46):
And we have to come to some sortof agreement, making deliberate
connections with friends makingthe effort to make those
deliberate, deliberateconnections with friends,
showing up for therapy. Right,just going to therapy, and
making it a thing that is onyour calendar. That's the messy
(28:06):
middle stuff, because I can'tsay how many therapy sessions
I've left where my therapist hassaid, "Well, I really hate to
leave this just kind of hanging,but we got to go", and I'm like
'aaaah, Why it is always likethis?'
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:21):
Uh huh.
Larissa Parson (28:22):
The daily practice of showing up in the
ways we want to show up is notalways tidy. Sometimes it's
messy. Sometimes we drop balls.
Sometimes we forget things. Andwe just keep trying to show up
and show up and show up. So thatstuff is not glamorous. But
that's where the change happensand where the magic is.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:50):
I like the idea. This idea of the messy
middle is super important. And Ifeel it's glazed over in so many
think-pieces, in so many books,and everything else and
wherever. I feel like thishappens a lot. We want the
(29:10):
heroic journey. And sometimes Iwonder if we really want that.
Or if we're told that we wantthat. Mm hmm. Because really,
what I want from my therapist,for example, the person that I'm
(29:31):
spending time with is to seethem as a person.
Larissa Parson (29:33):
Yeah
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:34):
To be as vulnerable as I am.
Larissa Parson (29:36):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:36):
And in order to see that, you've got to
show me the messy middle.
Larissa Parson (29:41):
Yes. Elizabeth, I love that so much. I love that
so much. I think you're exactlyright that we are told that this
is what we want. The this is howmarketing works. Oh, this thing
is bad. Here's your pain. Here'sthe solution. We skip the
middle. But that's like, not howthe process works. And that's
(30:06):
yeah. And yes, I want to see youin your fullness, in your
totality, which means messy isgoing to be part of it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:20):
And I want that messy. I want this to be
super crystal clear to anyonelistening: I'm here for the
messy.
Larissa Parson (30:27):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:28):
I'm not here for the small talk. I'm not
here for the tidy wrap up. Thattells me nothing about you. I'm
here for the messy part. Andyeah, it's gonna be messy. And
that's okay. And that's what I'mhere for.
Larissa Parson (30:40):
Yes. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:44):
Um, should we close with what we're eating?
Like little bit of a rough?
Larissa Parson (30:50):
That's a jump (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:51):
....rough, rough segue from Elizabeth
here.(Larissa's gorgeouslaughter)
Larissa Parson (30:59):
sure.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:01):
There's a lot of other places we could go
with this. I know that we willgo there. And I think this is
maybe a good time to transitionto what we are eating because
there's a lot of stuff thatwe're going to talk about. I
think this is going to be a goodplace to sort of pause us.
Larissa Parson (31:18):
I think you're right. We're gonna dig in so
much more into so many things.
This season that I think pausinghere, wrapping it up would be a
great idea. Do want me to tellyou about what I'm thinking
about when I think about food?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:36):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (31:37):
Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:37):
Yes. What are you eating?
Larissa Parson (31:39):
I had the most amazing bowl of berries the
other night I was sitting therejust like humming to myself
about how good they were. Andyou know, you know how it is
with berries around here. Likesometimes they're good and
sometimes they're mediocre.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:53):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (31:54):
These were fabulous. And they were just
like a bowl of blueberries andraspberries just from the co op.
Nothing on top of them, justlike in the bowl eating them
with my fingers. My body thoughtthat was too many berries the
next day we were not happy but Iam still thinking about the
deliciousness. And I'm like canI have a smaller bowl of berries
today?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:16):
Yes
Larissa Parson (32:17):
So that is my plan is to go get a handful of
berries this afternoon or maybein five minutes and enjoy the
heck out of them.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:25):
I love that. Raspberries are one of my
--I don't know if I'd reallycall it like a "desert island
food" --but it's one of thosetop five foods I can eat for the
rest of my life. Raspberries arelike number two for me. I'm
eating cheese, (Larissalaughter), cheese and more
(32:46):
cheese in my house right now.
Larissa Parson (32:52):
That's such an Elizabeth comment. I love it. I
love it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:55):
Dairy, all the dairy. Some people crave
beef. It's cheese for me. I'mlike "did I have any cheese
today? If so when was that?"Because it like a long time ago.
So specifically, I'm on Brie.
And at a different meal I'm ontopimento cheese, which is one of
(33:19):
my favorites. And I eat pimentocheese like I just got here
basically because I'd never seenpimento cheese in the Northeast.
And so as soon as I discoveredit, it was like a biscuit and
pimento cheese. I'm like "whatheaven is this?" Oh my gosh. So
my favorite pimento cheese isthe green hatch, chili pimento
(33:40):
cheese that LocoPops stocks. Ithink it actually arrives on
Thursday. So I may be thereshortly. It's got heat, but it's
also creamy. And it's also--just the aesthetic of food
never fails to like just make mea little weak-- it's just
gorgeous in the container, aswirly green in there. And it's
(34:05):
real light and it's just lovely.
So it's not even a pint. It's ahalf pint container. But you
don't need a ton. Just multipledays in a row. And then you're
all set. So, good. So good.
Larissa Parson (34:21):
I had a pimento cheese week last week. It was
great.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:25):
Oh, so great.
Larissa Parson (34:28):
So good. Yes.
Well, on that delicious note.
We're gonna thank everyone forlistening. And Elizabeth, is it
okay, if I throw a plug for mywork in here?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:41):
Please do.
Larissa Parson (34:42):
Alright, so if you want to put some of this
theory into action, like if youwant to talk about the things
that we don't talk about, I hosttwo weekly group conversations
in the Slow Burn, which is mymembership space, where we talk
about the how of all of this Andwe practice some of the how in
other sessions. So it is a placeto be witnessed in your messy
(35:06):
middle. And if you are curiousabout it, head over to
community.larissaparson.com. Andyou can read more.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:17):
If we can't remember you can go to
larissaparson.com and we canfigure it out
Larissa Parson (35:21):
Yes, you can.
Okay? Yes. Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:24):
So it's this rare place that exists to
hold space and even celebratethe messy middle, so important
for all of us. Thank you,Larissa.
Larissa Parson (35:34):
Thank you. And if you'd like to support our
work here on the podcast, youcan go to
patreon.com/wondermine, whereyou'll have access to our bonus
episodes, and whatever otherawesomeness Elizabeth and I come
up with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:54):
Which is substantial usually.
Larissa Parson (35:56):
It's a lot.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:57):
Yeah, yeah, it is. And we are so
grateful every time you shareWondermine with friends, that
means so much to us. Writing usa review, or just clicking five
stars on your podcast app willhelp others find their "wow" and
"how" of a life rooted incuriosity, community and
(36:17):
liberation.
Larissa Parson (36:18):
And until the next episode, you can follow us
@wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thanks again. We are sodelighted you're listening.
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