June 7, 2022 • 65 mins
Quick note: the audio on this episode is a bit spotty (thanks, Zoom!). Check out the transcript if it's too hard to listen!
On this episode, Elizabeth and Larissa discuss "female troubles"--the things we don't talk about when we talk about having a uterus.
Mentioned in this episode:
Margo Jefferson, Deconstructing a Nervous System
From Blood and Ash, Jennifer L. Armentrout
Turning Red (also check out the excellent bts piece, Embrace the Panda)
Are You There God, it's me, Margaret, Judy Blume
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:02):
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson,
I am a joy coach, a movementteacher, a writer and podcaster,
a mom to twins, a bit of ahippie, and I am a terrible
sleeper.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:16):
And I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a
parent, a partner, a rapesurvivor and writer. And I talk
about relationships, trauma anddecision making, and I'm 49
years old.
Larissa Parson (00:28):
And if you're new here, Hello. We're the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:49):
Special thank you to our patrons who
helped pay for the transcriptyou're reading, the hosting of
this podcast and so much more.
They make everything easier forus. If you would like to support
the show, thank you, you can dothat by visiting
patreon.com/wondermine. And ifyou don't want to, that's okay,
too. We're just glad you'rehere.
Larissa Parson (01:13):
And today, we are talking about something
we're calling "female troubles".
And I want to offer a contentnote, before we get started. We
are going to be talking aboutsome sensitive topics related to
sexual and reproductive health.
So, use your headphones if youneed to. And if this doesn't
(01:37):
feel like something that you caninvest in right now, that's
fine, too. And this is going tobe a rather long episode. So you
can pause you can come back toit. You know, take your time
with it. So our theme thisseason is what we don't talk
about and why. And what's beencoming up a lot, as we've talked
through some of these questionsis how many of these topics are
(02:00):
only taboo in certainsituations.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:03):
Right, we know that among many of our
friends, and in places likeprivate Facebook groups, much of
what we're going to talk abouttoday is a really huge part of
conversations there. So whatwe're going to do on this
episode is talk more about howwe can keep cultivating these
conversations outside of thesecircles.
Larissa Parson (02:24):
But before we get started with that, let's
talk about what we're reading.
Elizabeth, do you want to start?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:31):
I would love to. I am reading Margo
Jefferson's newest book. It's anearthy, deep searching memoir
called Deconstructing A NervousSystem. And it is completely
unlike anything I have everread. It is not a typical memoir
in any way. But she talks aboutit as a memoir, and it's
(02:52):
referenced as a memoir. It'ssort of like an excavation of
her soul, her thoughts andpersonal history through
multiple lenses. The lenses ofother people who would almost
sort of be alter egos, but alsothrough the lenses of family and
lenses like race, class, andfeminism. So it's fascinating.
(03:12):
She's a cultural critic, andthere are a lot of cultural
references that I don't knowabout. So I found myself really
looking up a lot! And that wasfascinating too, because it kind
of got me down some interestingavenues that I hadn't considered
before. But it's excellent,excellent, excellent. What is on
(03:33):
your Kindle, Larissa?
Larissa Parson (03:36):
I'm so glad we're recording this week
instead of last week. I had somegood books last week and some
real duds. I just finishedreading the second book in a
series called From Blood andAsh. It's by Jennifer L
Armentrout. This is a kind ofbook that has stalked me over
(03:57):
the internet because of whatelse I read. Like, you know, you
like this book, you're gonnalove this book. And I'm like,
okay, but I kept putting it offand putting it off and putting
it off until some friends ofmine were like, "No, it's really
good. You should totally readit." And so I've been working on
that series slowly. We'reputting it on hold one book at a
(04:18):
time at the library so that I'mnot just binge reading the whole
series like I did with some acouple of weeks ago. So it's
fun. It's got people withinteresting powers, vampire-like
creatures and a slow burnromance for people who like
paranormal and fantasy settingsand romance. It's that kind of
book. Yeah, it's enjoyable.
Yeah. I'm into fun. With thestate of the world right now, I
(04:42):
cannot read anything that is notfun. I just can't.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:47):
I will say I was given a fun book recently
by my friend Bev which was givento her by a librarian who said
it was one of her favorite booksof the year. I think last year,
the year before? So I'm excitedto read that and there is fun in
that there are actually robots.
What about that?
Larissa Parson (05:03):
That is not your usual stuff. I can't wait to
hear when you read it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:06):
It is not and it's not her (Bev) either.
So I'm excited.
Larissa Parson (05:08):
We have to put this in the show notes because
everyone's gonna want to knowwhat the book was.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:12):
Yes, yes.
I am not going to say the nexttime we record, I may talk about
it then. (laughter) I'm notgiven that up.
Larissa Parson (05:26):
All right. Well, on that note. You just use that
power, Elizabeth. So our topicfor today is less empowering,
all about being disempowered?
And also not. Female troubles.
(05:51):
So to be clear, when we'retalking about this, we're
talking about stuff that happensto people with uteruses.
Experiences that you havebecause you have a uterus. And
we just want to acknowledge thatthat doesn't always mean that
women is the word we want touse. So sometimes trans folks,
non binary folks, like we wantto be gender inclusive here and
(06:14):
acknowledge that a lot of thelanguage is going to be very
woman centric. But we're reallydelighted by this antiquated
turn of phrase female troubles.
And when we say female troubles,it sounds like we're gonna be
talking about periods and stuff.
And I've already given that awayby saying uteruses, is that
right, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:32):
Yeah, that is right. But I do want to sort
of talk about where the phrasekind of comes from a little bit.
And so we're, for our purposes,here, we're talking about the
phrase female troubles to talkabout challenges or issues
related to women's sexual andreproductive health. So it's
totally antiquated, for sure. Itis one of these, well I don't
know if it's a charming phrase,but it's definitely one of those
(06:53):
phrases that kind of catchesyour ear, because you know, it's
not something that we would notuse in conversation today. But
if you've had any adults in yourlife, who grew up maybe around
the depression, likegrandparents, or growing up in
the 70s and 80s, you may haveheard that term.
So if grandma perhaps hadovarian cancer, it might have
(07:16):
been said that she had femaletroubles. You know, when the
aunt who never had children wasmentioned, maybe it was said
that she had female troubles,which could have been a stand in
for infertility. But femaletroubles is not really a phrase,
obviously, you'd hear today.
Except I did find it kind of atongue in cheek way in some
academic papers, which I foundsort of fun. So in keeping with
our theme of what we don't talkabout, and why the phrase female
(07:38):
troubles is a euphemism forwhat's not said. But we want to
say things out loud here onWondermine, as a way to take
back some power. So today, we'regonna dive into some aspects of
women's - and so again, tryingto be aware of our lane here,
but also being aware of wheresome of this language
(08:01):
specifically comes from - sexualand reproductive health, that we
don't talk about.
Larissa Parson (08:06):
Thank you for clarifying that history. I think
it's really important. I feellike this conversation is
especially relevant when we'relooking at what we've known for
a while, what's coming, and whatis already the case, in many
states; the loss of bodilyautonomy and health care for
(08:26):
uterati all over this country.
And part of the reason for thatloss is a bunch of men, for the
most part, who, but not all, notonly men, who know nothing about
the reproductive system, becausethey grew up hearing about
mysterious female troubles,instead of being educated about
the many ways a uterus is not apenis. So, can we start by
(08:49):
talking about what should becommon knowledge for people of
all genders and genitalia?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:01):
We can. I like the connection that you've
made here is when we don't talkabout something or when we
allude to something in a veryvague or inaccurate way, this is
one of the ways that weperpetuate misunderstanding
around things. And this is wherewe can kind of get into trouble.
The trouble that we're in rightnow -- whether that's
(09:23):
intentional or not-- is it issometimes tricky for people to
understand things in very clearways when we don't use clear
terms to talk about things thatwe mean.
Larissa Parson (09:34):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:35):
I want to start off a little bit
chronologically with puberty andmenstruation. So female troubles
seem to mean actual trouble. Icouldn't really find necessarily
any reference to female troublesused in relation to puberty or
menstruation, and yet, you mighthear female troubles used as a
proxy for those things, right?
Even for menopause orperimenopause. All of this is
kind of just troubling on itsown, where again, a lack of
clarity can lead to a lack ofunderstanding which can lead to
(09:59):
a lack of in education aroundreally crucial pieces around the
human anatomy that we have andthat other people have. But
anyway, we thought since it'd bea while since either of us were
there, it would be fun to lookat puberty and menstruation
through the lens of the newPixar movie Turning Red. It is
Pixar, right? So Larissa, whatfelt familiar -and this is fun,
(10:22):
because it's the new movie andwe've both seen it
recently--what felt familiar toyou watching this movie?
Larissa Parson (10:31):
Oh, my gosh, that scene where her mom offers
her the pads. She's like, "Here,take some..." and I totally
remember having that scene. Iwas probably 11 when my mom did
this. I was a really latebloomer, though. It was years
before I needed them. And solike the, the absolute, like,
mortifying feeling that therewas this thing, and it was
(10:54):
mysterious and I didn't know andlike, ugh. And my mom was
throwing this stuff at me and Ididn't know what to do about it.
There wasn't a lot ofinformation that was super
helpful. And, you know, we had acopy of our bodies ourselves in
my house. It's not like therewasn't information available to
me. But that's still thatfeeling of total embarrassment.
(11:15):
And then also, you know,thinking about how her body
changes and turns into this, youknow, big fluffy, red panda. But
like, all those bodily changesof puberty that started
happening way before I startedgetting periods, and like, how
just awful it was to feel likemy body wasn't this body I'd
(11:36):
known for my whole childhoodanymore. There was a lot of
shame in that, too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:41):
Yeah, there. I think that's that's
right. I think also, when Ithink about like, gosh, I mean,
it's not like, I wouldn't say itlooks like Kotex in the 50s and
60s, with the belt wow, that wassome wacky shit going on there.
But pads even in the 70s and80s, they're awful!
Larissa Parson (12:02):
They're so thick!
Elizabeth Johnson (12:03):
So thick! Like those things that you're
given when you go home from thehospital. So if you've had a had
a vaginal birth, you know, let'sjust like they're just met these
massive things. It's kind oflike mind boggling, because it's
also scary, because they're sobig! I remember feeling really
intimidated by the productsaround.
Larissa Parson (12:20):
Yeah.
Elizabeth Johnson (12:20):
Even though there's obviously way more
period products today than therewas, it's still like what are
these and it felt like there'sshame with buying them. I didn't
even buy them for a while (like,I'm trying to think how that
worked out?!) But I don'tremember actually going to the
store because I just felt reallyembarrassed around all that.
You mentioned shame. I get thatcompletely because I was also
(12:45):
sort of a late bloomer, which wecan talk about. What I notice is
there's not a lot of shamearound her (Mei) but there is
shame when she transformsbecause she's just become an
animal, which is shocking. But Idon't necessarily see a lot of
(13:07):
around her actual feelings. Isee shame rooted in some of the
behavior that mom does with thepads and confronting the guy
who's behind the counter.
What was really interesting tome, they're like 12 or
something-- I can't remember howold they are in that in the
(13:28):
movie-- bu their selfassuredness and the strength
that they all have to supporteach other. And even when she
was sort of drawing in her room,I felt confusion and
embarrassment, but I didn't seea lot of shame sort of seeping
from her in ways that I haveseen, that I felt and that have
shown up for in other movies orother pop culture references.
Larissa Parson (13:50):
Yeah, I can totally see that. And yet, like
you just said, it's not reallywhat my experience was, like, at
all. At all. I feel like she wasconfused and a little mortified,
again, like you said, becauseshe turned into an animal and
that's just like, What the heck?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:05):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (14:06):
And that scene, where she's trying to hide it
from her parents, and she'slike, flailing around in her
room and in the bathroom andjust smacking pictures off the
walls. There's this real senseof what that f is going on here.
But not shame. Really, I think,the hiding maybe a little bit,
but it's not. It's really moreconfusion to me.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:28):
Yeah, because I think when I think
about shame, it's likesomething, something is
absolutely wrong with us. Thescenes with Mei bouncing around
the room and knocking shit offof walls, that is this
mortification and confusion. Butmy overwhelming feeling was
(14:49):
absolutely shame. Because I wasa super late developer, you
know, I felt shame because myyounger sister who's about 15
months younger started todevelop breasts before I did. I
felt a lot of shame around beingjust like a flat body, no
(15:09):
breasts and but also feelinglike having like really big
feelings about wanting to besexual with boys. And what did
that mean and wanting to kiss aboy and all of that. And then
about my period, which did notcome until I don't even know I
was probably like 12 or 13. Iwas at least 13 is my guess it
was I was much later thaneveryone else. (EMJ noting as
she edits transcript (15:28):
it was actually 15 not 13!) So probably
I will be getting a period tothe end of my days this point
since I was that late.
Larissa Parson (15:35):
I got you beat but keep going.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:37):
Shame was a big theme for me and puberty.
But and I think something thatalso really stood out to me is
that unlike Mei, I did not havethis core group of friends to be
able to talk about things withwho would support me. I had a
real good friend in middleschool, and then I left and we
all went to different schoolsand that went away. So I was
(16:02):
definitely that person - nosurprise - who sought refuge in
books. Are You There, God? It'sme, Margaret. Anything Judy
Blume, Beverly Cleary more JudyBlume. That was my experience.
It was a shame packed puberty.
Larissa Parson (16:16):
Mm hmm. I can sol relate to that. And maybe
that's why we're friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:21):
That could be.
Larissa Parson (16:25):
So, I feel like there's a lot more to say about
puberty. But I feel like thething about puberty is that it
starts this whole, potentiallybeing able to birth another
human thing. So, not only isyour body feeling like it's not
(16:47):
your own, or that's not the bodyyou're used to for sure, it's
doing all this weird stuff. Andthere are these big changes that
happen in this time, includingthe early parts of puberty. I'm
watching my own kids be prepubescent and slightly is
(17:07):
starting to shift into puberty.
And there's a lot of kind ofmystery and a little bit of
cluelessness around thepotential consequences of the
changes that your body is goingthrough. Even though we talk a
lot about it in our house, but Ithink for folks who are born
with uteruses, this also startsto wake us up to how little
(17:31):
power we have, because of whatis in our bodies. And that our
uterus doesn't just belong tous. And we learn often that the
size and shape of our body inall kinds of ways, too big, too
(17:55):
small, too busty, too generousbuttcheeks, everything is up for
public consumption, andcriticism and objectification.
And we could talk all day aboutthings like dress codes, and
(18:27):
yada, yada, yada. We could talkabout all of that. But I really
want to lean towards pregnancybecause pregnancy is one of
those times where I felt likepeople thought they could just
touch my body. And, we havethis, I want to call it
fetishization of the pregnantbody. People run up and put
(18:53):
their hands on your belly. Youwould never go touch somebody's
belly in public if they weren'tcarrying a fetus. And there are
also all of these, you know,photographs that glorify this
idea. And at the same time, wedon't talk about how complex and
(19:16):
intense and risky pregnancy is.
And we almost never talk aboutwhat happens after the baby is
born. And even less than that,do we talk about what happens
when we miscarry.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:38):
Yeah. When we asked on our Instagram
stories about topics that feltoff or not socially acceptable,
miscarriage was absolutely ofthose suggested topics that came
(19:58):
up. I don't know if it would bereferred to as female troubles,
but I feel like it probablywould. This is just one of these
sort of taboo subjects that wereally need to talk more about.
(20:19):
And I'm always grateful whenthere women who have experienced
miscarriage --or people withuteruses who have been
experienced miscarriage --andwhen they say "I have, and this
is what how I felt, and this iswhat happened to me." Because I
feel like when we talk aboutthese things, again, we dispel
some of the shame, the fear, thestigma, all of these big, dark
(20:43):
emotions --to go back to thatterm from last season from
Miriam Greenspan--that we havearound things that are almost
untouchable subjects.
Larissa Parson (20:54):
Yeah, that's beautifully summed up,
Elizabeth. So miscarriage ismuch more common than many of us
may think. I personally can likerattle off a whole bunch of
people who I know who have hadmiscarriages. Obviously, I'm not
but from a Mayo Clinic article,and I also looked at some other
(21:17):
research. So there's about 10 -20% of known pregnancies that
end in loss. But, as we talkedabout on our abortion episode,
the actual number ofmiscarriages is probably much
higher, because many of themhappen very early on in
pregnancy. So if you'llremember, many folks with
(21:39):
uteruses don't know for surethat they're pregnant until well
past six weeks along. And manymiscarriages happened before 10
weeks. So, if we want to comparethe rate of miscarriage with the
rate of say, breast cancer,about 13% of American women will
(22:01):
develop breast cancer over theirlifetime. And we're not even
just talking about within thespan of years where you could
potentially get pregnant. So,it's much more common actually,
than breast cancer. So that'slike the numbers. The
consequences of pregnancy losson the mental health of birthing
(22:22):
parents can be vast, and at thesame time is often
unacknowledged by the people intheir lives. We don't know how
to respond. I mean, we are aculture that is terrible with
grief and death. And we reallydon't know how to respond well
(22:43):
to miscarriage or to pregnancyloss. And there are all kinds of
ways that this happens. Thereare insensitive comments. You
get to shorter leave from work.
And depending on how far alongin a pregnancy you are, the
physical recovery can be as longas for any other pregnancy that
(23:04):
did not rely result in a loss.
So, it's not an easy road towalk. In a culture that doesn't
see abortion as healthcare, it'seven harder for so many folks.
There are many, many, manymiscarriages where you have to
(23:35):
have an abortion procedure tocomplete the miscarriage. For
whatever reason your body is notejecting the tissue fast enough.
All kinds of reasons. And so weneed to talk about this. We need
to talk more about it. We talk alot about pregnancy. We're
talking a lot more aboutabortion, especially right now.
(23:55):
But we don't talk a lot aboutwhat happens if your very much
wanted pregnancy, and even anunwanted pregnancy that ends in
miscarriage, doesn't turn outthe way you expected.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:07):
I'm struck by when we think about--when
you're talking about like theinsensitive comments and how we
don't know how to respond-- howmuch it is similar to the lack
of understanding and knowledgearound how we respond to the
(24:31):
death of someone in our lives.
How does one respond to someonewhose mother died? And what do
we do in these cases? So oftenthe avenue is silence because we
just don't know what to say andwe don't want to say the wrong
thing. But what we know issilence is worse than anything
(24:56):
else, right? because then it's alack of acknowledgement.
Larissa Parson (25:01):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:01):
We need to, again, to use the words and
we need to name the thing thathappened. And we need to check
in with people.
I had lunch with a friend ofmine a while ago, Annie, who had
seen a friend of hers recentlywhose mother had passed. And
people checked it on her forlike, the first couple of weeks.
(25:22):
They brought food, and it wasjust very lovely. And
then..crickets. Absolutelynothing until my friend Annie
checked in with her. And shesaid, "You know you are the only
one." And it was a six monthbenchmark. It was relatively
recently and no one had checkedjust to see how she's doing. You
(25:42):
know, we just have to talk aboutthese things. And when we think
about--we go back to the kind oflike the beginning of where we
started here, you know-- how dowe keep cultivating
conversations outside of thesespaces? One very simple way is
that we talk with people aboutthese things. We talk about the
things that are going on. Weacknowledge the really hard
thing, even if it's like "I seeyou and this is really shitty
(26:06):
that you're going through it."
Larissa Parson (26:07):
Yes, exactly.
And it can really be thatsimple. I seeyou and this is
really shitty.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:14):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (26:15):
Yes, let's have a coffee. Let's go for a walk. I
want to spend time with you inany way that feels supportive.
Doesn't have to be a lot. Yeah.
So, I feel like this is anawkward transition, but I'm
gonna make it anyway. Some ofthe things that could still be
(26:38):
going on some of the things thathappen when your body gets
pregnant. There are lots ofthings we could talk about.
There are lots of risks duringpregnancy that we could talk
about. We don't talk that muchabout those. And we also don't
talk about what happens afterpregnancy. So this is really,
(27:01):
really essential to the abortiondiscussion that we're having
right now. Forced pregnancy, nothaving abortion available as
healthcare, is telling a personwith a uterus that they are not
in charge with of their ownbody. So most pregnancies, I
kind of want to say allpregnancies, result in permanent
(27:23):
changes to the body you live in.
The size, the shape, the stretchmarks, stretched skin, pelvic
floor issues, tears from givingbirth, sometimes, the stitches
to repair them and the scartissue or scar tissue from a C
(27:44):
section or scar tissue fromstitching, pelvic pain, hip
issues, this list is really longback pain, incontinence,
prolapse, postpartum depressionand PTSD, birth trauma, all of
these could result from anypregnancy. And we're not even
talking about the things thatcan happen while you're
pregnant.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:03):
Yeah
Larissa Parson (28:04):
And not all of these will happen to somebody
who's pregnant. I carried twinsand came out of it without
pelvic floor issues. But mysacroiliac joint has never been
the same. You know? And many ofthese things can happen without
a pregnancy involved as well,and I think that's really
important to note. This it's notjust pregnancy, however, some of
(28:28):
these things increase withpregnancy. And the work that I
do is, in many ways, for many ofmy clients and unraveling of all
the messages we just talkedabout that they start getting at
puberty that intensifies duringpregnancy. Or, in general, with
the experience of being in abody with a uterus, in this
(28:51):
culture, it gets more complex,and in large part that's thanks
to pregnancy. So one of thethings that I say to anyone
who's given birth, or isplanning to give birth, is that
your body is never not postpartum. Your body knows. So
like, I haven't had a secondpregnancy. Folks who have a
(29:12):
second pregnancy will often saythat they notice it faster.
Their bodies just kind of knowswhat to do a little bit more
differently. But even if youonly get pregnant once, your
body will always be changed byhaving carried that fetus. And
we live in a society thatignores your well being
(29:34):
postpartum. And it's kind ofappalling, right? This is for
the rest of your life. It's notjust like, oh, nine months and
you're all done. You can go backto work two weeks later. No! No,
the hormonal changes alone arehuge. They're huge. Huge. Yeah,
(29:58):
Elizabeth, you want to jump in?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:59):
We just don't know anything like that,
you know? And again, it's likewe don't know these things
because they're not talkedabout. And certainly this your
way of thinking about a body isnot a typical way that anyone
(30:20):
would ever encounterconversations about their body,
right? When I saw my doctor, noone would have ever said your
body is never postpartum. Right?
Larissa Parson (30:29):
Never not postpartum.
Elizabeth Johnson (30:30):
never not postpartum. Yeah, sorry!
Larissa Parson (30:31):
Your body is ALWAYS postpartum. (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:33):
My bottom...body! My bottom might
also never not be postpartum.
(laughter)I mean that thought alone is
really shocking. And when wethink about where these ideas
come from, I think, I mean,coming from the establishment.
They're not coming from themedical schools, right? Which
(30:54):
means they're not coming fromour doctors, they're not coming
from our nurses, they're notcoming from most health care
providers. Right. So why would Inot think after I had my kiddo
that I'm ready to go back towork in a couple of months?
Because why would I not be? Andwe know why we would not be at
this point. But I think thatthis is a shock. For many of us
(31:14):
who were in that position at onepoint, who never had
conversations who never heardthat language, your body is
always postpartum.
Larissa Parson (31:22):
Yeah, well, and we, to be really clear, live in
a culture that does notacknowledge that you need time
to recover.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:33):
Yeah
Larissa Parson (31:33):
Because we do not have paid parental leave.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:38):
Right.
Larissa Parson (31:39):
We do not have paid universal child care. We do
not have the social supportsthat would allow for birthing
parents to fully recover beforethey go back to work. So if you
have that time to recover, it'sbecause you have a really good
job. Or your spouse has a reallygood job, that has benefits,
(32:02):
that has leave, that has money.
That's it. Grrr, makes me sofreakin angry. Let's talk
solutions. Briefly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:15):
Let's talk solutions.
Larissa Parson (32:17):
So we can have pelvic physical therapy,
occupational therapy, movementtherapy. This kind of stuff is
standard practice in manycountries. And it should be
standard practice here. But, ifwe don't know that, it's an
option, we don't do it. So youjust gonna throw out reasons for
(32:43):
folks who are listening, thatyou might want to see a pelvic
PT or other pelvic healthspecialist. And this goes for
all bodies, not just bodies thathave given birth. It goes for
all bodies and all gendersactually. So sex should not be
painful. If you're havingpainful sex, you should find
somebody to work with. It maytake I would say with painful
(33:05):
sex, a PT and a therapist maybein order, depending on why it's
painful. But a PT can alsoreally solve that problem. You
should be able to go to thebathroom, all kinds of ways when
you want to and with ease. Soincontinence, constipation.
Those are both things that a PTcan look into with you. Back
(33:27):
pain and pelvic pain, diastasisrecti, prolapses. All of these
things can be treated, can beeased, can be made more
functional and liveable for thevast majority of people, but we
just don't know that that'savailable. So too often, we
(33:49):
don't talk about it. And it getsbrushed off as female troubles.
Or we get told this is just whathappens when you have a baby or
get older. And so the solutionis to have conversations. Hey,
are you peeing your pants, too?
Oh, I have a great pelvic PT. Doyou want their name? That's all
(34:11):
it takes. Next time somebodymakes a joke about sneezing and
peeing. Hey, I have this greatpelvic PT. They really helped me
with this. The conversationagain, just like with a grief
conversation, does not have tobe an extensive unraveling of
everything. It can be as simpleas offering a little bit of
support. And when we don't talkenough about these things, or if
(34:37):
we feel too much shame aroundthem to talk about them, then
that means we don't get the carethat we all need.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:49):
This idea of "this is just what happens
when..."
Larissa Parson (34:53):
(groans)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:53):
or this is just what happens to girls in
our family," or "when you getolder or whatever", This line of
-- I hesitate to say reasoning,but it's that line of
explanation perhaps -- issomething that will be very,
very familiar to some childhoodsexual abuse survivors who
(35:17):
confronted or talked to parentsor caregivers (about their
abuse). And we're told this "thesame thing happened when I was
your age," just basically suckit up because it's just sort of
like a rite of passage in a waythat's obviously completely
effed up.
Larissa Parson (35:28):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:29):
But also in a way that's just really
perfunctory. And that's because,of course, none of this is
necessarily a rite of passage.
And of course, all of this issomething that we can then heal
from.
Larissa Parson (35:42):
Yes to all of that. Right. Yeah, we don't need
this to be dismissed. We get tospeak up about it. Completely.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:52):
No. And when -- just like when you tell
someone for the first time thatyou were abused, or you were
raped, or you are peeing yourpants-- if the first person you
tell does not have a goodresponse, you need to find
someone else to tell who will.
Larissa Parson (36:12):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (36:13):
And it's damn sucky that it is the case
that not everyone has the goodresponse. But there will be
people out there who do have thegood response. And you deserve
to have those people belistening to your painful
conversation or disclosure.
Larissa Parson (36:30):
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely. Keep looking.
Because the people are out therewho will listen. II could keep
going. Because I can rant allday about pelvic health. But we
don't have all day. So let'stalk about breast cancer.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (36:51):
A natural segue in many ways. Let's make
this make sense. On my way backfrom Knoxville last weekend, we
passed a billboard that said"Breast Cancer doesn't wait for
October". This felt especiallytimely as I'd been thinking
(37:20):
about how like abortion, wedidn't use to say the word
"cancer" out loud and now, it'son billboards advertising
mammography screening. Breastcancer was one of those "female
(37:41):
troubles", one of those topicsthat was very much off limits.
I did a lot of digging aroundAudre Lorde's journey with
breast cancer and learned somuch about how we talked about
(38:07):
cancer in as recently as the1980s. In The Cancer Journals,
she recalls a scene that she hadwith a friend of her
brother-in-law, a woman calledLittle Sister who had breast
(38:31):
cancer and a mastectomy, justlike Lorde. They talked the
whole afternoon and "dideverything except compare
scars,"It was the first timeLorde had talked with another bc
survivor about her experience,aside from the survivors who
(38:52):
came into the hospital to talkabout prostheses with her. And
at the end of their hourstogether, Lorde's mother said
(39:29):
she didn't even know LittleSister had cancer. Today, 40ish
years later, we talk about"battling" cancer and being a
"cancer warrior". We talk aboutcancer in a very masculine,
bellicose way; it's a fight, awar, a battle. And a very
socially acceptable topic totalk about.
Larissa Parson (39:57):
I love how you picked up on the line language
that we use to talk about canceras this very masculine thing,
and that makes it acceptable totalk about openly. And that is
pretty effed up to be honest.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is. Because what if andthere's a whole lot of really,
and this is, again, one of thesepieces where we just don't have
time to go into. But there's awhole lot of really interesting
research and stories aroundpeople for whom breast cancer is
not a battle. They are either soadvanced in their cancer, or
they have chosen a differentpath or whatever, or they just
(40:35):
don't resonate with the languageof battle, that they feel
excluded from the idea of beinga breast cancer survivor.
So this is another example in mymind of how white supremacy
shows up. We have a very clearbinary line -- you do it this
way, or you do it this way --oneway is clearly better than the
(40:57):
other. And then, of course,people who are not following
that, that socially acceptedbinary, that socially accepted
line of what this means are leftbehind.
And so that's and maybe this iswhere we talk about the
Charlotte Haley. And I don'tnecessarily know if she would be
left behind. But hercontribution to this idea of
(41:18):
breast cancer awareness isreally worth. Around 1992 a
woman named Charlotte Hayleycame up with the idea of wearing
(41:42):
a peach colored ribbon as a wayto raise awareness around how
much money the NCI was spendingon research (budget 1.8 billion
and 5% was prevention). At thesame time Self Magazine was
partnering with Estee Lauder tocreate an awareness campaign
(42:18):
around BCAM. They approachedHayley who wasn't interested in
working with companies. So theyworked around her and launched a
(42:45):
pink ribbon. According to someresearch I read, Komen launched
a pink ribbon in the Fall of1991 before anyone else. Either
way, breast cancer has beenawash in pink ever since. So
much so that we have the term"pinkwashing", which actually
(43:11):
doesn;t mean what I thought itmeant! But also, that is a
little bit dubious, becausetheir product could also be
doing something that's harmingthe people who are using it. So
it has become something a bitbigger than that right now.
Yeah. That'swhere we're withpink and breast cancer.
Larissa Parson (43:36):
Right. So this is a capitalism problem. Because
capitalism loves to pretend it'sdoing one thing, and then it's
actually not helping. Yeah, so Ifeel like I could go on and on
about the evils of capitalismand breast cancer, but really,
(43:58):
I'm being trying to be aware oftime. So, we talk a lot about
breast cancer. And part of thatis thanks to capitalism. And
also, I've had a bunch offriends who've had breast cancer
diagnoses in the last few years,as I know, you also have
Elizabeth. Our time of life isthe time where this happens a
lot. But, you know, there'ssomething else it's been
(44:22):
happening to even more of myfriends and yet I do not see a
huge outpouring of cute T shirtsor colorful, colorful mugs to
celebrate it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:35):
And we sometimes see that T shirt. But
they're really mocking, right?
Yes, they're not catchy, sexy orcute and they're not a wash in a
certain color or something thatmade them more fun. So I know
where you're going here. And Isometimes like to cite a couple
(44:57):
of different statistics. I liketo say one in eight women and
one in three women. And anyguesses as to what those numbers
are?
Larissa Parson (45:08):
So because I just looked up breast cancer
statistics, I'm going to say onein eight is breast cancer. Is
that right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:13):
Mmm, mhm.
Yes.
Larissa Parson (45:16):
And one in three is have experienced abuse.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:21):
One in three is actually contact sexual
violence.
Larissa Parson (45:26):
Oh, even worse.
Not just a broad category.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:40):
Yeah, one in three experience context
sexual violence. So not catcalling or any kind of
harassment or sexting. It wouldbe someone touching you in a
sexual way. Yeah, that's prettyhorrible.
Larissa Parson (45:50):
Horrifying.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:51):
Yeah. A pretty shocking statistic. But
there's another number that Ithink we're working towards with
this t shirt and cool mugs thatare not out there yet, but maybe
we will make some. It'ssomething that's temporary but
it can take years. It affectsevery woman differently but
every woman will go through itevery person with a uterus.
(46:12):
Well, I don't even get to getinto that because if you've had
your uterus removed at once atsome point or are pre puberty,
then you won't goIt goes faster. Yes. When your
uterus gets removed.
Yes. So what am I talking aboutthere? What am I what is the
thing that I'm referring tohere? Every woman and some
trans men?
Larissa Parson (46:32):
So we're talking about menopause, and
specifically perimenopause. Iwill say I'm thinking about
uteruses getting removed, andI'm thinking about ovaries and
some folks keep their ovaries sothat they can go through a more
natural menopause. So, it's kindof interesting. I mean, like,
the cycle is not like,obviously, you're not going to
be shedding uterine linings ifyou don't have the uterus to
(46:53):
shed it. That being said, allright, so we don't talk about
it. Tell us more Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:01):
We don't talk about it. I think this is
another one of the things wherewe're so just unfamiliar with
something that it kind of isinvisible until we're almost in
it and someone plants the seed.
So many women familiar with thesymptoms of menopause or
perimenopause. Menopause is -well I was on Twitter earlier
today. And someone who knowsbetter said "menopause". She was
(47:25):
like, "because I'm menopausal.
And I've been eight monthswithout my period."
Larissa Parson (47:33):
No!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:34):
Not helpful! You've got 1 million
followers, please don't saythis. So 12 months without a
period makes you in menopause.
Larissa Parson (47:44):
Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:45):
Until that's happened, you're not in
menopause, you are probably inthe hell that is perimenopause.
If you're anywhere in your 40s,you're at this point.
Larissa Parson (47:53):
Or 50s!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:54):
Right. I'm just thinking like where we're
starting.. pretty early 40s. Sothere's headaches and there's
heart palpitations. And there'snight sweats or hot flashes,
there's irregular periods,there's irritability. There are
sometimes people have hadhearing changes, there's mood
swings, there's vaginal dryness.
There's heavier periods, there'sso much here.
Larissa Parson (48:17):
It's like the list of things that can happen
when you get pregnant, exceptfor much more awful and
long-lasting. Incontinence isalso on this list, too. So, when
you look at the numbers, there'sa big spike after pregnancy and
there's a big spike aroundmenopause - perimenopause into
menopause. So, let's see, I cancheck off so many boxes on this.
(48:49):
And I'm thinking about what arethe things that capitalism does
give us. There is a robustmarket in cooling sheets and
sleep wear but I'm still lookingfor the perfect combination,
personally. I'm lucky if I canget back to sleep if I wake up
hot. And then there's the wholejust not sleeping well, in
general for me.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (49:11):
Right.
Same same. So I just likesomeone just mentioned this. I
heard two women talking aboutthis as I'm walking. Like some
sort of cooling system and I'mlike,
Larissa Parson (49:24):
(laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (49:24):
going to follow you into this coffee
shop. (laughter).
So why do we hear about breastcancer more than we hear about
perimenopause? Why are bcbillboards urging me to get a
mammogram? Why when I google"what percentage of breast
cancer is detectable throughmammography?" (because while
mammography is lauded as Thedetection method, it is not a
(49:47):
perfect tool and cannot detectall breast cancer), do I get an
article at Komen.com instead ofsomething from the I don't know,
National Cancer Institute? WebMD? breast cancer.org? Why am I
getting an article from Komen?
Until very recently, likepandemic recently--which I think
is superinteresting--perimenopause and
(50:09):
menopause were not well fundedor well researched. And they are
becoming more so. We've gotventure capitalists, who's may
or may not be women goingthrough menopause themselves, or
who have family or partnersgoing through menopause, and
they're seeing menopause as this$600 billion opportunity. That's
(50:29):
a number that was cited recentlyin Forbes, so we're seeing that
there's an audience for this.
And venture capitalists areresponding appropriately, well,
maybe not "appropriately" butthey're stepping up to this
capitalist need, which may ormay not be the answer, but maybe
it's a part of the answer? It'snot an either/ or I guess.
Larissa Parson (50:54):
I'm surprised that the boomers didn't get this
just because there were a lot ofthem. Now, it's like the
millennials going throughperimenopause with the Gen Xers,
and this is where it's comingin.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (51:05):
Well, I think boomers not getting it
goes back to me for a whole wayaround how we talk about sex
generally.
Larissa Parson (51:12):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (51:14):
I've done a lot of research around how we
talk about sex and bodies. Andso people refer to things as
female troubles, whether that'sboomers or boomers parents,
they're not going to say thatthere's an opportunity or a need
here.
Larissa Parson (51:27):
Right. And there's a lot less shame in Gen
X and younger generations aroundthat.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (51:31):
I agree.
Larissa Parson (51:32):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you're totally right. Allright. So maybe we need a
'Turning Red' movie for women"of a certain age". And wait,
can we just talk about "of acertain age"? I feel like this
is also a thing that hopefullyis going away with boomers where
we're feeling ashamed about howold we are. Can we just stop
pretending that we're not over40? Can we maybe not have that
(51:55):
be a thing? I'm gonna say, tocall back to my reading from
earlier - that book was about avery young person, so I'm not
even gonna get into it. But I'vebeen doing some research on, and
by research, I mean reading.
I've been reading books in oneof my favorite niches,
(52:18):
paranormal, romance, fantasytype stuff. And every time
there's a female main characterwho has over 40, it skips over
whether there's a change orwhat's happening in her body.
There is no information otherthan like, maybe an occasional
reference to like a hot flash,like once, and maybe a reference
(52:41):
to how her body just isn't whatit used to be. There's a lot of
body shame, or a lot of bodydisparagement, or a lot of talk
about stretch marks and looseskin and you know, all of this
stuff. And, I want to see thistime, this perimenopausal time,
as a fiery transformation, aPhoenix-like reclamation of
(53:03):
ourselves, instead of this kindof like, shuffling off into into
invisibility into the sunset. SoI think writing my novel is
getting higher on my to do list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (53:15):
Yeah, that might need to boost it up a
couple spots, maybe into the top10. (laughter)
This is one of the reasons why Istarted out saying I'm 49. I
tried to bring it up inconversation when it makes
sense, you know, but I thinkthis is really important. We
(53:37):
have such a skewed sense as towhat age is (looks like) and who
is obsessed our age. Sometimes Ipost a picture a celebrity who's
my age. I'm like, "she's my age,we are the same age." So this
is what (49) could look like. Imean, I don't look like her
(53:58):
necessarily, but this is whatthis age looks like. We don't
know people who are our even ourown age.
Larissa Parson (54:03):
Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (54:03):
Sometimes there's shame associated with
the age, but also like, oh, do Isay that out loud to people?
Anyway, there's this reallyinteresting 2016 Fast Company
article that asked "Why is noone talking about an important
topic that affects 27 millionpeople at work every day?" And
the (female) author answers withsexism and ageism. And that
(54:29):
makes sense, at least in part,at least when we're talking
about work. But I think it'sbigger than that. When we think
about what gets talked about,what gets public air time, what
gets news coverage and not justin Glamour or even Fast Company,
(54:49):
we can follow the trail to whatgets funded and what experts get
training onThis is one of my big soap
boxes, you know. So, capitalismand the patriarchy
Larissa Parson (55:01):
Duhhhhh!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (55:01):
We're not talking about these things. How
can we eliminate domesticviolence and sexual assault?
Well, we have to eliminateracism and sexism first. So
there's that. We just sort oftalk in these euphemisms. Like,
"here's this over here." And "ifwe could only do....". No, no.
If you could only tell people tosay no. No, no let's not blame
(55:24):
the victims here. Let's notblame the people who are going
through it. Let's blame thepeople who are in charge of the
systems of oppression that weare forced to live, work and
play under. Let's do that.
Capitalism is what's driving oureconomy. Why is no one funding
this except venture capitalists?
Capitalism, of course. Thiscapitalist model even shows up
(55:46):
at places where like theNational Cancer Institute-- how
can it not?--it's part of thesame system: patriarchy. It's
the old boys network thatcontinues to dictate what med
schools and nursing schools andprobably PT schools and OT
schools all of these places,dictating what all these schools
are teaching their students.
Larissa Parson (56:05):
Oh, fun fact! If you want to specialize in pelvic
health, you don't get a unit onthat in PT school. You have to
go do extra work later. So youhave to do extra training, or OT
school. For both of them, youhave to go find a pelvic health
program that you can join andstudy in. So yeah, it's
everywhere. It's everywhere. Andit's also like, the
(56:34):
institutional fat phobia thatshows up in the same places. Oh,
you're peeing your pants whenyou run. You should lose weight.
Really? Really? Come on.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (56:57):
Yeah, it's these biases. It's a lack
of training. It's the systems ofoppression. All of these things
are contributing as to why we'retalking more about breast
cancer. And of course, it'simportant to talk about. No one
here is saying it's notimportant to be talking about
breast cancer.
Larissa Parson (57:11):
Nope.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (57:11):
What we are saying is it is equally
important to talk aboutsomething that affects every
single one, not a single one, agood portion of the population.
And that is not necessarilytrue, at least at this point.
with breast cancer. These thingsare super important, too. It's a
both/and.
Larissa Parson (57:26):
I was gonna say it's a yes, and. Yes, let's talk
about breast cancer, and let'stalk about perimenopause. And
let's talk about puberty. Andlet's talk about pregnancy. And
let's talk about abortion. Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (57:40):
So, just to sort of sum us up here...
perimenopause, and menopause arethese female troubles that are
still antiquated terms, both inantiquated concepts and in how
medical providers see them.
Because they don't get anytraining on them, either. This
is also extra stuff.
Larissa Parson (57:54):
Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (57:55):
And how the general public, especially
women, sees them.
Larissa Parson (57:58):
Yeah. Right. So we know that the best way to
change this is to start talkingabout them and keep talking
about them, with our friendswith our families, and
especially to make sure thatpeople who do not have uteruses
understand and see these not asvague female troubles, but as
(58:23):
actual things that happen to thepeople with uteruses that they
love.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (58:30):
Yeah, so let's just because this is the
"how" here, right? We talk onWondermine about the "how" and
the "wow". tThis is one of those"how's". How to start having
conversations like this withyour right people, right
relationships. So if it feelsweird to talk about it with a
male partner --maybe this isjust not where you've ever gone
(58:51):
before--start getting comfortaround this by talking about it
with one of those real rightpeople (girlfriend, bestie) and
then gain some comfort aroundit. And then bring it up to the
male partner who do not have auterus and who has no concept of
what you're going through. And -who probably in their own family
(59:13):
of origin - would never haveknown their mom or sister was
dealing with something as commonas perimenopause.
Larissa Parson (59:20):
Or as common as cramps...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (59:22):
Or as common as cramps.
Larissa Parson (59:23):
We can start there, too. We didn't even talk
about like the awfulness ofperiods.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (59:30):
Yes, Larissa tell us a little bit
about how we can talk about thismaybe in more of a safe space.
If we don't have those folks.
Larissa Parson (59:41):
Okay, so this is what I do in the Slow Burn. I
host to weekly groupconversations where we talk
about the how of all this. Wetalk about how to have these
conversations and sometimes wejust vent about the world and
that is what we do. So the SlowBurn is a place to be witnessed
in your messy middle and yourmessy midlife.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:00:03):
So I feel like sometimes the conversations
that I have -- and I know thatyou have too-- are I don't have
those people out there in mylife for whatever reason. COVID
aside or even without COVID. Andso this is one of these spaces
that exist online, where we canshow up in all of our fullness,
(01:00:23):
and we not gonna see thosepeople again for a couple more
days, or maybe we don't evenknow them in real life. All
good. So, thank you for that.
Larissa Parson (01:00:30):
A lot of them we don't. Yeah, thank you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:00:33):
Um, can we close with what we're eating?
Larissa Parson (01:00:36):
Ah, yes, I have a rave.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:00:40):
I'm excited.
Larissa Parson (01:00:41):
I'm sorry, if you're not local to me, because
I have a total rave. If you arelocal, and you have reached your
limit on cooking for this timein your life, which happens to
me quite often, I just don'thave the spoons sometimes for
it, you have got to check outRedstart Foods. We'll put a link
(01:01:01):
in the show notes. I have trieda lot over this pandemic, a lot
of make my life easier byletting me reheat food instead
of cook options. You know, andsome of them trick you because
you think you're going to bereheating food, and then you're
chopping vegetables for 30minutes and very angry about the
whole situation. This is notthat. This is the best one of
(01:01:22):
these things that I have tried.
The flavors are vibrant andfresh. The portion sizes are
generous enough that you haveleftovers and you get your
money's worth. I ordered a lotof food for this week. And it
costs about the same as agrocery run when I plan meals
for that many days. So you know,it's not like going to
McDonald's for every meal cheap,but it's cheaper than a lot of
(01:01:45):
takeout options. Like if I triedto buy my family this much food
at takeout it'd be three timesas much around here. Yeah. And
so let me think, what was myfavorite thing this week? I
don't know. Because I haven'teaten at all. But there was a
key lime pie in this week'sorder. That was delicious. I've
been trying to like spread itout until I get my my CSA
(01:02:07):
ordered today, because I'm justlike, it's so good.
I'm totally going to check out.
I did not know about this. I'mkind of surprised this has not
come up before.
Yeah, it was on a thread in aFacebook group that we're both
in. Somebody had asked aboutmeal prep options. And I was
like, oh, that's new. So Iclicked over to it. It was so
(01:02:31):
good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:02:33):
I'm totally checking it out. Mine is
also local, so sorry, y'all. Weare in an all veggie CSA that
just started. And one of thethings that I like about it is
that it's very close by I don'thave to go far because I
struggle with getting in the carand leaving Durham. So this is
(01:02:55):
really nice. It is every otherFriday. So tomorrow is a pickup
day. And there have been somesuper fresh veggies we've had.
I've had some incredible rainbowchard, incredible. Did I have a
snap pea? Um, lots of goodgreens. It's a really nice way
to kind of have some things andjust have them good to go in the
(01:03:16):
fridge. Of course you need to dostuff with them. So that's the
other part of it, but they dogive you recipes. They are a
local farm that I'm just reallyloving right now. I'm gonna see
how it goes without fruit,because that's just not what
they do. But I'm getting thestrawberries from other places.
So I'm doing fine with that. Butthat's a yummy new thing that
(01:03:39):
I'm liking.
Larissa Parson (01:03:40):
That sounds delightful. Oh, I forgot to say
Redstart delivers to your door.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:03:44):
What?
Larissa Parson (01:03:45):
Ah, that's the best part.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:03:49):
Gosh, totally checking out now.
Larissa Parson (01:03:54):
Okay, so that's probably enough about what we're
eating. If you'd like to supportour work here on the podcast,
you can head over topatreon.com/wondermine where
you'll have access to our bonusepisodes, and whatever other
awesomeness Elizabeth and I comeup with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:04:13):
Mmmmm. We are so grateful every time you
share Wondermine with friends.
Writing us a review will helpothers find their "wow" and
"how" of a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation.
Larissa Parson (01:04:26):
And in the interim, you can follow us at
@wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thanks again for listening andwe are so delighted that you're
here.
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson,
I am a joy coach, a movementteacher, a writer and podcaster,
a mom to twins, a bit of ahippie, and I am a terrible
sleeper.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:16):
And I'm Elizabeth M Johnson. I'm a
parent, a partner, a rapesurvivor and writer. And I talk
about relationships, trauma anddecision making, and I'm 49
years old.
Larissa Parson (00:28):
And if you're new here, Hello. We're the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:49):
Special thank you to our patrons who
helped pay for the transcriptyou're reading, the hosting of
this podcast and so much more.
They make everything easier forus. If you would like to support
the show, thank you, you can dothat by visiting
patreon.com/wondermine. And ifyou don't want to, that's okay,
too. We're just glad you'rehere.
Larissa Parson (01:13):
And today, we are talking about something
we're calling "female troubles".
And I want to offer a contentnote, before we get started. We
are going to be talking aboutsome sensitive topics related to
sexual and reproductive health.
So, use your headphones if youneed to. And if this doesn't
(01:37):
feel like something that you caninvest in right now, that's
fine, too. And this is going tobe a rather long episode. So you
can pause you can come back toit. You know, take your time
with it. So our theme thisseason is what we don't talk
about and why. And what's beencoming up a lot, as we've talked
through some of these questionsis how many of these topics are
(02:00):
only taboo in certainsituations.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:03):
Right, we know that among many of our
friends, and in places likeprivate Facebook groups, much of
what we're going to talk abouttoday is a really huge part of
conversations there. So whatwe're going to do on this
episode is talk more about howwe can keep cultivating these
conversations outside of thesecircles.
Larissa Parson (02:24):
But before we get started with that, let's
talk about what we're reading.
Elizabeth, do you want to start?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:31):
I would love to. I am reading Margo
Jefferson's newest book. It's anearthy, deep searching memoir
called Deconstructing A NervousSystem. And it is completely
unlike anything I have everread. It is not a typical memoir
in any way. But she talks aboutit as a memoir, and it's
(02:52):
referenced as a memoir. It'ssort of like an excavation of
her soul, her thoughts andpersonal history through
multiple lenses. The lenses ofother people who would almost
sort of be alter egos, but alsothrough the lenses of family and
lenses like race, class, andfeminism. So it's fascinating.
(03:12):
She's a cultural critic, andthere are a lot of cultural
references that I don't knowabout. So I found myself really
looking up a lot! And that wasfascinating too, because it kind
of got me down some interestingavenues that I hadn't considered
before. But it's excellent,excellent, excellent. What is on
(03:33):
your Kindle, Larissa?
Larissa Parson (03:36):
I'm so glad we're recording this week
instead of last week. I had somegood books last week and some
real duds. I just finishedreading the second book in a
series called From Blood andAsh. It's by Jennifer L
Armentrout. This is a kind ofbook that has stalked me over
(03:57):
the internet because of whatelse I read. Like, you know, you
like this book, you're gonnalove this book. And I'm like,
okay, but I kept putting it offand putting it off and putting
it off until some friends ofmine were like, "No, it's really
good. You should totally readit." And so I've been working on
that series slowly. We'reputting it on hold one book at a
(04:18):
time at the library so that I'mnot just binge reading the whole
series like I did with some acouple of weeks ago. So it's
fun. It's got people withinteresting powers, vampire-like
creatures and a slow burnromance for people who like
paranormal and fantasy settingsand romance. It's that kind of
book. Yeah, it's enjoyable.
Yeah. I'm into fun. With thestate of the world right now, I
(04:42):
cannot read anything that is notfun. I just can't.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:47):
I will say I was given a fun book recently
by my friend Bev which was givento her by a librarian who said
it was one of her favorite booksof the year. I think last year,
the year before? So I'm excitedto read that and there is fun in
that there are actually robots.
What about that?
Larissa Parson (05:03):
That is not your usual stuff. I can't wait to
hear when you read it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:06):
It is not and it's not her (Bev) either.
So I'm excited.
Larissa Parson (05:08):
We have to put this in the show notes because
everyone's gonna want to knowwhat the book was.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:12):
Yes, yes.
I am not going to say the nexttime we record, I may talk about
it then. (laughter) I'm notgiven that up.
Larissa Parson (05:26):
All right. Well, on that note. You just use that
power, Elizabeth. So our topicfor today is less empowering,
all about being disempowered?
And also not. Female troubles.
(05:51):
So to be clear, when we'retalking about this, we're
talking about stuff that happensto people with uteruses.
Experiences that you havebecause you have a uterus. And
we just want to acknowledge thatthat doesn't always mean that
women is the word we want touse. So sometimes trans folks,
non binary folks, like we wantto be gender inclusive here and
(06:14):
acknowledge that a lot of thelanguage is going to be very
woman centric. But we're reallydelighted by this antiquated
turn of phrase female troubles.
And when we say female troubles,it sounds like we're gonna be
talking about periods and stuff.
And I've already given that awayby saying uteruses, is that
right, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:32):
Yeah, that is right. But I do want to sort
of talk about where the phrasekind of comes from a little bit.
And so we're, for our purposes,here, we're talking about the
phrase female troubles to talkabout challenges or issues
related to women's sexual andreproductive health. So it's
totally antiquated, for sure. Itis one of these, well I don't
know if it's a charming phrase,but it's definitely one of those
(06:53):
phrases that kind of catchesyour ear, because you know, it's
not something that we would notuse in conversation today. But
if you've had any adults in yourlife, who grew up maybe around
the depression, likegrandparents, or growing up in
the 70s and 80s, you may haveheard that term.
So if grandma perhaps hadovarian cancer, it might have
(07:16):
been said that she had femaletroubles. You know, when the
aunt who never had children wasmentioned, maybe it was said
that she had female troubles,which could have been a stand in
for infertility. But femaletroubles is not really a phrase,
obviously, you'd hear today.
Except I did find it kind of atongue in cheek way in some
academic papers, which I foundsort of fun. So in keeping with
our theme of what we don't talkabout, and why the phrase female
(07:38):
troubles is a euphemism forwhat's not said. But we want to
say things out loud here onWondermine, as a way to take
back some power. So today, we'regonna dive into some aspects of
women's - and so again, tryingto be aware of our lane here,
but also being aware of wheresome of this language
(08:01):
specifically comes from - sexualand reproductive health, that we
don't talk about.
Larissa Parson (08:06):
Thank you for clarifying that history. I think
it's really important. I feellike this conversation is
especially relevant when we'relooking at what we've known for
a while, what's coming, and whatis already the case, in many
states; the loss of bodilyautonomy and health care for
(08:26):
uterati all over this country.
And part of the reason for thatloss is a bunch of men, for the
most part, who, but not all, notonly men, who know nothing about
the reproductive system, becausethey grew up hearing about
mysterious female troubles,instead of being educated about
the many ways a uterus is not apenis. So, can we start by
(08:49):
talking about what should becommon knowledge for people of
all genders and genitalia?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:01):
We can. I like the connection that you've
made here is when we don't talkabout something or when we
allude to something in a veryvague or inaccurate way, this is
one of the ways that weperpetuate misunderstanding
around things. And this is wherewe can kind of get into trouble.
The trouble that we're in rightnow -- whether that's
(09:23):
intentional or not-- is it issometimes tricky for people to
understand things in very clearways when we don't use clear
terms to talk about things thatwe mean.
Larissa Parson (09:34):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:35):
I want to start off a little bit
chronologically with puberty andmenstruation. So female troubles
seem to mean actual trouble. Icouldn't really find necessarily
any reference to female troublesused in relation to puberty or
menstruation, and yet, you mighthear female troubles used as a
proxy for those things, right?
Even for menopause orperimenopause. All of this is
kind of just troubling on itsown, where again, a lack of
clarity can lead to a lack ofunderstanding which can lead to
(09:59):
a lack of in education aroundreally crucial pieces around the
human anatomy that we have andthat other people have. But
anyway, we thought since it'd bea while since either of us were
there, it would be fun to lookat puberty and menstruation
through the lens of the newPixar movie Turning Red. It is
Pixar, right? So Larissa, whatfelt familiar -and this is fun,
(10:22):
because it's the new movie andwe've both seen it
recently--what felt familiar toyou watching this movie?
Larissa Parson (10:31):
Oh, my gosh, that scene where her mom offers
her the pads. She's like, "Here,take some..." and I totally
remember having that scene. Iwas probably 11 when my mom did
this. I was a really latebloomer, though. It was years
before I needed them. And solike the, the absolute, like,
mortifying feeling that therewas this thing, and it was
(10:54):
mysterious and I didn't know andlike, ugh. And my mom was
throwing this stuff at me and Ididn't know what to do about it.
There wasn't a lot ofinformation that was super
helpful. And, you know, we had acopy of our bodies ourselves in
my house. It's not like therewasn't information available to
me. But that's still thatfeeling of total embarrassment.
(11:15):
And then also, you know,thinking about how her body
changes and turns into this, youknow, big fluffy, red panda. But
like, all those bodily changesof puberty that started
happening way before I startedgetting periods, and like, how
just awful it was to feel likemy body wasn't this body I'd
(11:36):
known for my whole childhoodanymore. There was a lot of
shame in that, too.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:41):
Yeah, there. I think that's that's
right. I think also, when Ithink about like, gosh, I mean,
it's not like, I wouldn't say itlooks like Kotex in the 50s and
60s, with the belt wow, that wassome wacky shit going on there.
But pads even in the 70s and80s, they're awful!
Larissa Parson (12:02):
They're so thick!
Elizabeth Johnson (12:03):
So thick! Like those things that you're
given when you go home from thehospital. So if you've had a had
a vaginal birth, you know, let'sjust like they're just met these
massive things. It's kind oflike mind boggling, because it's
also scary, because they're sobig! I remember feeling really
intimidated by the productsaround.
Larissa Parson (12:20):
Yeah.
Elizabeth Johnson (12:20):
Even though there's obviously way more
period products today than therewas, it's still like what are
these and it felt like there'sshame with buying them. I didn't
even buy them for a while (like,I'm trying to think how that
worked out?!) But I don'tremember actually going to the
store because I just felt reallyembarrassed around all that.
You mentioned shame. I get thatcompletely because I was also
(12:45):
sort of a late bloomer, which wecan talk about. What I notice is
there's not a lot of shamearound her (Mei) but there is
shame when she transformsbecause she's just become an
animal, which is shocking. But Idon't necessarily see a lot of
(13:07):
around her actual feelings. Isee shame rooted in some of the
behavior that mom does with thepads and confronting the guy
who's behind the counter.
What was really interesting tome, they're like 12 or
something-- I can't remember howold they are in that in the
(13:28):
movie-- bu their selfassuredness and the strength
that they all have to supporteach other. And even when she
was sort of drawing in her room,I felt confusion and
embarrassment, but I didn't seea lot of shame sort of seeping
from her in ways that I haveseen, that I felt and that have
shown up for in other movies orother pop culture references.
Larissa Parson (13:50):
Yeah, I can totally see that. And yet, like
you just said, it's not reallywhat my experience was, like, at
all. At all. I feel like she wasconfused and a little mortified,
again, like you said, becauseshe turned into an animal and
that's just like, What the heck?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:05):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (14:06):
And that scene, where she's trying to hide it
from her parents, and she'slike, flailing around in her
room and in the bathroom andjust smacking pictures off the
walls. There's this real senseof what that f is going on here.
But not shame. Really, I think,the hiding maybe a little bit,
but it's not. It's really moreconfusion to me.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:28):
Yeah, because I think when I think
about shame, it's likesomething, something is
absolutely wrong with us. Thescenes with Mei bouncing around
the room and knocking shit offof walls, that is this
mortification and confusion. Butmy overwhelming feeling was
(14:49):
absolutely shame. Because I wasa super late developer, you
know, I felt shame because myyounger sister who's about 15
months younger started todevelop breasts before I did. I
felt a lot of shame around beingjust like a flat body, no
(15:09):
breasts and but also feelinglike having like really big
feelings about wanting to besexual with boys. And what did
that mean and wanting to kiss aboy and all of that. And then
about my period, which did notcome until I don't even know I
was probably like 12 or 13. Iwas at least 13 is my guess it
was I was much later thaneveryone else. (EMJ noting as
she edits transcript (15:28):
it was actually 15 not 13!) So probably
I will be getting a period tothe end of my days this point
since I was that late.
Larissa Parson (15:35):
I got you beat but keep going.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:37):
Shame was a big theme for me and puberty.
But and I think something thatalso really stood out to me is
that unlike Mei, I did not havethis core group of friends to be
able to talk about things withwho would support me. I had a
real good friend in middleschool, and then I left and we
all went to different schoolsand that went away. So I was
(16:02):
definitely that person - nosurprise - who sought refuge in
books. Are You There, God? It'sme, Margaret. Anything Judy
Blume, Beverly Cleary more JudyBlume. That was my experience.
It was a shame packed puberty.
Larissa Parson (16:16):
Mm hmm. I can sol relate to that. And maybe
that's why we're friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:21):
That could be.
Larissa Parson (16:25):
So, I feel like there's a lot more to say about
puberty. But I feel like thething about puberty is that it
starts this whole, potentiallybeing able to birth another
human thing. So, not only isyour body feeling like it's not
(16:47):
your own, or that's not the bodyyou're used to for sure, it's
doing all this weird stuff. Andthere are these big changes that
happen in this time, includingthe early parts of puberty. I'm
watching my own kids be prepubescent and slightly is
(17:07):
starting to shift into puberty.
And there's a lot of kind ofmystery and a little bit of
cluelessness around thepotential consequences of the
changes that your body is goingthrough. Even though we talk a
lot about it in our house, but Ithink for folks who are born
with uteruses, this also startsto wake us up to how little
(17:31):
power we have, because of whatis in our bodies. And that our
uterus doesn't just belong tous. And we learn often that the
size and shape of our body inall kinds of ways, too big, too
(17:55):
small, too busty, too generousbuttcheeks, everything is up for
public consumption, andcriticism and objectification.
And we could talk all day aboutthings like dress codes, and
(18:27):
yada, yada, yada. We could talkabout all of that. But I really
want to lean towards pregnancybecause pregnancy is one of
those times where I felt likepeople thought they could just
touch my body. And, we havethis, I want to call it
fetishization of the pregnantbody. People run up and put
(18:53):
their hands on your belly. Youwould never go touch somebody's
belly in public if they weren'tcarrying a fetus. And there are
also all of these, you know,photographs that glorify this
idea. And at the same time, wedon't talk about how complex and
(19:16):
intense and risky pregnancy is.
And we almost never talk aboutwhat happens after the baby is
born. And even less than that,do we talk about what happens
when we miscarry.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:38):
Yeah. When we asked on our Instagram
stories about topics that feltoff or not socially acceptable,
miscarriage was absolutely ofthose suggested topics that came
(19:58):
up. I don't know if it would bereferred to as female troubles,
but I feel like it probablywould. This is just one of these
sort of taboo subjects that wereally need to talk more about.
(20:19):
And I'm always grateful whenthere women who have experienced
miscarriage --or people withuteruses who have been
experienced miscarriage --andwhen they say "I have, and this
is what how I felt, and this iswhat happened to me." Because I
feel like when we talk aboutthese things, again, we dispel
some of the shame, the fear, thestigma, all of these big, dark
(20:43):
emotions --to go back to thatterm from last season from
Miriam Greenspan--that we havearound things that are almost
untouchable subjects.
Larissa Parson (20:54):
Yeah, that's beautifully summed up,
Elizabeth. So miscarriage ismuch more common than many of us
may think. I personally can likerattle off a whole bunch of
people who I know who have hadmiscarriages. Obviously, I'm not
but from a Mayo Clinic article,and I also looked at some other
(21:17):
research. So there's about 10 -20% of known pregnancies that
end in loss. But, as we talkedabout on our abortion episode,
the actual number ofmiscarriages is probably much
higher, because many of themhappen very early on in
pregnancy. So if you'llremember, many folks with
(21:39):
uteruses don't know for surethat they're pregnant until well
past six weeks along. And manymiscarriages happened before 10
weeks. So, if we want to comparethe rate of miscarriage with the
rate of say, breast cancer,about 13% of American women will
(22:01):
develop breast cancer over theirlifetime. And we're not even
just talking about within thespan of years where you could
potentially get pregnant. So,it's much more common actually,
than breast cancer. So that'slike the numbers. The
consequences of pregnancy losson the mental health of birthing
(22:22):
parents can be vast, and at thesame time is often
unacknowledged by the people intheir lives. We don't know how
to respond. I mean, we are aculture that is terrible with
grief and death. And we reallydon't know how to respond well
(22:43):
to miscarriage or to pregnancyloss. And there are all kinds of
ways that this happens. Thereare insensitive comments. You
get to shorter leave from work.
And depending on how far alongin a pregnancy you are, the
physical recovery can be as longas for any other pregnancy that
(23:04):
did not rely result in a loss.
So, it's not an easy road towalk. In a culture that doesn't
see abortion as healthcare, it'seven harder for so many folks.
There are many, many, manymiscarriages where you have to
(23:35):
have an abortion procedure tocomplete the miscarriage. For
whatever reason your body is notejecting the tissue fast enough.
All kinds of reasons. And so weneed to talk about this. We need
to talk more about it. We talk alot about pregnancy. We're
talking a lot more aboutabortion, especially right now.
(23:55):
But we don't talk a lot aboutwhat happens if your very much
wanted pregnancy, and even anunwanted pregnancy that ends in
miscarriage, doesn't turn outthe way you expected.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:07):
I'm struck by when we think about--when
you're talking about like theinsensitive comments and how we
don't know how to respond-- howmuch it is similar to the lack
of understanding and knowledgearound how we respond to the
(24:31):
death of someone in our lives.
How does one respond to someonewhose mother died? And what do
we do in these cases? So oftenthe avenue is silence because we
just don't know what to say andwe don't want to say the wrong
thing. But what we know issilence is worse than anything
(24:56):
else, right? because then it's alack of acknowledgement.
Larissa Parson (25:01):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:01):
We need to, again, to use the words and
we need to name the thing thathappened. And we need to check
in with people.
I had lunch with a friend ofmine a while ago, Annie, who had
seen a friend of hers recentlywhose mother had passed. And
people checked it on her forlike, the first couple of weeks.
(25:22):
They brought food, and it wasjust very lovely. And
then..crickets. Absolutelynothing until my friend Annie
checked in with her. And shesaid, "You know you are the only
one." And it was a six monthbenchmark. It was relatively
recently and no one had checkedjust to see how she's doing. You
(25:42):
know, we just have to talk aboutthese things. And when we think
about--we go back to the kind oflike the beginning of where we
started here, you know-- how dowe keep cultivating
conversations outside of thesespaces? One very simple way is
that we talk with people aboutthese things. We talk about the
things that are going on. Weacknowledge the really hard
thing, even if it's like "I seeyou and this is really shitty
(26:06):
that you're going through it."
Larissa Parson (26:07):
Yes, exactly.
And it can really be thatsimple. I seeyou and this is
really shitty.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:14):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (26:15):
Yes, let's have a coffee. Let's go for a walk. I
want to spend time with you inany way that feels supportive.
Doesn't have to be a lot. Yeah.
So, I feel like this is anawkward transition, but I'm
gonna make it anyway. Some ofthe things that could still be
(26:38):
going on some of the things thathappen when your body gets
pregnant. There are lots ofthings we could talk about.
There are lots of risks duringpregnancy that we could talk
about. We don't talk that muchabout those. And we also don't
talk about what happens afterpregnancy. So this is really,
(27:01):
really essential to the abortiondiscussion that we're having
right now. Forced pregnancy, nothaving abortion available as
healthcare, is telling a personwith a uterus that they are not
in charge with of their ownbody. So most pregnancies, I
kind of want to say allpregnancies, result in permanent
(27:23):
changes to the body you live in.
The size, the shape, the stretchmarks, stretched skin, pelvic
floor issues, tears from givingbirth, sometimes, the stitches
to repair them and the scartissue or scar tissue from a C
(27:44):
section or scar tissue fromstitching, pelvic pain, hip
issues, this list is really longback pain, incontinence,
prolapse, postpartum depressionand PTSD, birth trauma, all of
these could result from anypregnancy. And we're not even
talking about the things thatcan happen while you're
pregnant.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:03):
Yeah
Larissa Parson (28:04):
And not all of these will happen to somebody
who's pregnant. I carried twinsand came out of it without
pelvic floor issues. But mysacroiliac joint has never been
the same. You know? And many ofthese things can happen without
a pregnancy involved as well,and I think that's really
important to note. This it's notjust pregnancy, however, some of
(28:28):
these things increase withpregnancy. And the work that I
do is, in many ways, for many ofmy clients and unraveling of all
the messages we just talkedabout that they start getting at
puberty that intensifies duringpregnancy. Or, in general, with
the experience of being in abody with a uterus, in this
(28:51):
culture, it gets more complex,and in large part that's thanks
to pregnancy. So one of thethings that I say to anyone
who's given birth, or isplanning to give birth, is that
your body is never not postpartum. Your body knows. So
like, I haven't had a secondpregnancy. Folks who have a
(29:12):
second pregnancy will often saythat they notice it faster.
Their bodies just kind of knowswhat to do a little bit more
differently. But even if youonly get pregnant once, your
body will always be changed byhaving carried that fetus. And
we live in a society thatignores your well being
(29:34):
postpartum. And it's kind ofappalling, right? This is for
the rest of your life. It's notjust like, oh, nine months and
you're all done. You can go backto work two weeks later. No! No,
the hormonal changes alone arehuge. They're huge. Huge. Yeah,
(29:58):
Elizabeth, you want to jump in?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:59):
We just don't know anything like that,
you know? And again, it's likewe don't know these things
because they're not talkedabout. And certainly this your
way of thinking about a body isnot a typical way that anyone
(30:20):
would ever encounterconversations about their body,
right? When I saw my doctor, noone would have ever said your
body is never postpartum. Right?
Larissa Parson (30:29):
Never not postpartum.
Elizabeth Johnson (30:30):
never not postpartum. Yeah, sorry!
Larissa Parson (30:31):
Your body is ALWAYS postpartum. (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:33):
My bottom...body! My bottom might
also never not be postpartum.
(laughter)I mean that thought alone is
really shocking. And when wethink about where these ideas
come from, I think, I mean,coming from the establishment.
They're not coming from themedical schools, right? Which
(30:54):
means they're not coming fromour doctors, they're not coming
from our nurses, they're notcoming from most health care
providers. Right. So why would Inot think after I had my kiddo
that I'm ready to go back towork in a couple of months?
Because why would I not be? Andwe know why we would not be at
this point. But I think thatthis is a shock. For many of us
(31:14):
who were in that position at onepoint, who never had
conversations who never heardthat language, your body is
always postpartum.
Larissa Parson (31:22):
Yeah, well, and we, to be really clear, live in
a culture that does notacknowledge that you need time
to recover.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:33):
Yeah
Larissa Parson (31:33):
Because we do not have paid parental leave.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:38):
Right.
Larissa Parson (31:39):
We do not have paid universal child care. We do
not have the social supportsthat would allow for birthing
parents to fully recover beforethey go back to work. So if you
have that time to recover, it'sbecause you have a really good
job. Or your spouse has a reallygood job, that has benefits,
(32:02):
that has leave, that has money.
That's it. Grrr, makes me sofreakin angry. Let's talk
solutions. Briefly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:15):
Let's talk solutions.
Larissa Parson (32:17):
So we can have pelvic physical therapy,
occupational therapy, movementtherapy. This kind of stuff is
standard practice in manycountries. And it should be
standard practice here. But, ifwe don't know that, it's an
option, we don't do it. So youjust gonna throw out reasons for
(32:43):
folks who are listening, thatyou might want to see a pelvic
PT or other pelvic healthspecialist. And this goes for
all bodies, not just bodies thathave given birth. It goes for
all bodies and all gendersactually. So sex should not be
painful. If you're havingpainful sex, you should find
somebody to work with. It maytake I would say with painful
(33:05):
sex, a PT and a therapist maybein order, depending on why it's
painful. But a PT can alsoreally solve that problem. You
should be able to go to thebathroom, all kinds of ways when
you want to and with ease. Soincontinence, constipation.
Those are both things that a PTcan look into with you. Back
(33:27):
pain and pelvic pain, diastasisrecti, prolapses. All of these
things can be treated, can beeased, can be made more
functional and liveable for thevast majority of people, but we
just don't know that that'savailable. So too often, we
(33:49):
don't talk about it. And it getsbrushed off as female troubles.
Or we get told this is just whathappens when you have a baby or
get older. And so the solutionis to have conversations. Hey,
are you peeing your pants, too?
Oh, I have a great pelvic PT. Doyou want their name? That's all
(34:11):
it takes. Next time somebodymakes a joke about sneezing and
peeing. Hey, I have this greatpelvic PT. They really helped me
with this. The conversationagain, just like with a grief
conversation, does not have tobe an extensive unraveling of
everything. It can be as simpleas offering a little bit of
support. And when we don't talkenough about these things, or if
(34:37):
we feel too much shame aroundthem to talk about them, then
that means we don't get the carethat we all need.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:49):
This idea of "this is just what happens
when..."
Larissa Parson (34:53):
(groans)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (34:53):
or this is just what happens to girls in
our family," or "when you getolder or whatever", This line of
-- I hesitate to say reasoning,but it's that line of
explanation perhaps -- issomething that will be very,
very familiar to some childhoodsexual abuse survivors who
(35:17):
confronted or talked to parentsor caregivers (about their
abuse). And we're told this "thesame thing happened when I was
your age," just basically suckit up because it's just sort of
like a rite of passage in a waythat's obviously completely
effed up.
Larissa Parson (35:28):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:29):
But also in a way that's just really
perfunctory. And that's because,of course, none of this is
necessarily a rite of passage.
And of course, all of this issomething that we can then heal
from.
Larissa Parson (35:42):
Yes to all of that. Right. Yeah, we don't need
this to be dismissed. We get tospeak up about it. Completely.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:52):
No. And when -- just like when you tell
someone for the first time thatyou were abused, or you were
raped, or you are peeing yourpants-- if the first person you
tell does not have a goodresponse, you need to find
someone else to tell who will.
Larissa Parson (36:12):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (36:13):
And it's damn sucky that it is the case
that not everyone has the goodresponse. But there will be
people out there who do have thegood response. And you deserve
to have those people belistening to your painful
conversation or disclosure.
Larissa Parson (36:30):
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely. Keep looking.
Because the people are out therewho will listen. II could keep
going. Because I can rant allday about pelvic health. But we
don't have all day. So let'stalk about breast cancer.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (36:51):
A natural segue in many ways. Let's make
this make sense. On my way backfrom Knoxville last weekend, we
passed a billboard that said"Breast Cancer doesn't wait for
October". This felt especiallytimely as I'd been thinking
(37:20):
about how like abortion, wedidn't use to say the word
"cancer" out loud and now, it'son billboards advertising
mammography screening. Breastcancer was one of those "female
(37:41):
troubles", one of those topicsthat was very much off limits.
I did a lot of digging aroundAudre Lorde's journey with
breast cancer and learned somuch about how we talked about
(38:07):
cancer in as recently as the1980s. In The Cancer Journals,
she recalls a scene that she hadwith a friend of her
brother-in-law, a woman calledLittle Sister who had breast
(38:31):
cancer and a mastectomy, justlike Lorde. They talked the
whole afternoon and "dideverything except compare
scars,"It was the first timeLorde had talked with another bc
survivor about her experience,aside from the survivors who
(38:52):
came into the hospital to talkabout prostheses with her. And
at the end of their hourstogether, Lorde's mother said
(39:29):
she didn't even know LittleSister had cancer. Today, 40ish
years later, we talk about"battling" cancer and being a
"cancer warrior". We talk aboutcancer in a very masculine,
bellicose way; it's a fight, awar, a battle. And a very
socially acceptable topic totalk about.
Larissa Parson (39:57):
I love how you picked up on the line language
that we use to talk about canceras this very masculine thing,
and that makes it acceptable totalk about openly. And that is
pretty effed up to be honest.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:12):
Yeah.
Yeah, it is. Because what if andthere's a whole lot of really,
and this is, again, one of thesepieces where we just don't have
time to go into. But there's awhole lot of really interesting
research and stories aroundpeople for whom breast cancer is
not a battle. They are either soadvanced in their cancer, or
they have chosen a differentpath or whatever, or they just
(40:35):
don't resonate with the languageof battle, that they feel
excluded from the idea of beinga breast cancer survivor.
So this is another example in mymind of how white supremacy
shows up. We have a very clearbinary line -- you do it this
way, or you do it this way --oneway is clearly better than the
(40:57):
other. And then, of course,people who are not following
that, that socially acceptedbinary, that socially accepted
line of what this means are leftbehind.
And so that's and maybe this iswhere we talk about the
Charlotte Haley. And I don'tnecessarily know if she would be
left behind. But hercontribution to this idea of
(41:18):
breast cancer awareness isreally worth. Around 1992 a
woman named Charlotte Hayleycame up with the idea of wearing
(41:42):
a peach colored ribbon as a wayto raise awareness around how
much money the NCI was spendingon research (budget 1.8 billion
and 5% was prevention). At thesame time Self Magazine was
partnering with Estee Lauder tocreate an awareness campaign
(42:18):
around BCAM. They approachedHayley who wasn't interested in
working with companies. So theyworked around her and launched a
(42:45):
pink ribbon. According to someresearch I read, Komen launched
a pink ribbon in the Fall of1991 before anyone else. Either
way, breast cancer has beenawash in pink ever since. So
much so that we have the term"pinkwashing", which actually
(43:11):
doesn;t mean what I thought itmeant! But also, that is a
little bit dubious, becausetheir product could also be
doing something that's harmingthe people who are using it. So
it has become something a bitbigger than that right now.
Yeah. That'swhere we're withpink and breast cancer.
Larissa Parson (43:36):
Right. So this is a capitalism problem. Because
capitalism loves to pretend it'sdoing one thing, and then it's
actually not helping. Yeah, so Ifeel like I could go on and on
about the evils of capitalismand breast cancer, but really,
(43:58):
I'm being trying to be aware oftime. So, we talk a lot about
breast cancer. And part of thatis thanks to capitalism. And
also, I've had a bunch offriends who've had breast cancer
diagnoses in the last few years,as I know, you also have
Elizabeth. Our time of life isthe time where this happens a
lot. But, you know, there'ssomething else it's been
(44:22):
happening to even more of myfriends and yet I do not see a
huge outpouring of cute T shirtsor colorful, colorful mugs to
celebrate it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:35):
And we sometimes see that T shirt. But
they're really mocking, right?
Yes, they're not catchy, sexy orcute and they're not a wash in a
certain color or something thatmade them more fun. So I know
where you're going here. And Isometimes like to cite a couple
(44:57):
of different statistics. I liketo say one in eight women and
one in three women. And anyguesses as to what those numbers
are?
Larissa Parson (45:08):
So because I just looked up breast cancer
statistics, I'm going to say onein eight is breast cancer. Is
that right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:13):
Mmm, mhm.
Yes.
Larissa Parson (45:16):
And one in three is have experienced abuse.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:21):
One in three is actually contact sexual
violence.
Larissa Parson (45:26):
Oh, even worse.
Not just a broad category.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:40):
Yeah, one in three experience context
sexual violence. So not catcalling or any kind of
harassment or sexting. It wouldbe someone touching you in a
sexual way. Yeah, that's prettyhorrible.
Larissa Parson (45:50):
Horrifying.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:51):
Yeah. A pretty shocking statistic. But
there's another number that Ithink we're working towards with
this t shirt and cool mugs thatare not out there yet, but maybe
we will make some. It'ssomething that's temporary but
it can take years. It affectsevery woman differently but
every woman will go through itevery person with a uterus.
(46:12):
Well, I don't even get to getinto that because if you've had
your uterus removed at once atsome point or are pre puberty,
then you won't goIt goes faster. Yes. When your
uterus gets removed.
Yes. So what am I talking aboutthere? What am I what is the
thing that I'm referring tohere? Every woman and some
trans men?
Larissa Parson (46:32):
So we're talking about menopause, and
specifically perimenopause. Iwill say I'm thinking about
uteruses getting removed, andI'm thinking about ovaries and
some folks keep their ovaries sothat they can go through a more
natural menopause. So, it's kindof interesting. I mean, like,
the cycle is not like,obviously, you're not going to
be shedding uterine linings ifyou don't have the uterus to
(46:53):
shed it. That being said, allright, so we don't talk about
it. Tell us more Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:01):
We don't talk about it. I think this is
another one of the things wherewe're so just unfamiliar with
something that it kind of isinvisible until we're almost in
it and someone plants the seed.
So many women familiar with thesymptoms of menopause or
perimenopause. Menopause is -well I was on Twitter earlier
today. And someone who knowsbetter said "menopause". She was
(47:25):
like, "because I'm menopausal.
And I've been eight monthswithout my period."
Larissa Parson (47:33):
No!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:34):
Not helpful! You've got 1 million
followers, please don't saythis. So 12 months without a
period makes you in menopause.
Larissa Parson (47:44):
Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:45):
Until that's happened, you're not in
menopause, you are probably inthe hell that is perimenopause.
If you're anywhere in your 40s,you're at this point.
Larissa Parson (47:53):
Or 50s!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:54):
Right. I'm just thinking like where we're
starting.. pretty early 40s. Sothere's headaches and there's
heart palpitations. And there'snight sweats or hot flashes,
there's irregular periods,there's irritability. There are
sometimes people have hadhearing changes, there's mood
swings, there's vaginal dryness.
There's heavier periods, there'sso much here.
Larissa Parson (48:17):
It's like the list of things that can happen
when you get pregnant, exceptfor much more awful and
long-lasting. Incontinence isalso on this list, too. So, when
you look at the numbers, there'sa big spike after pregnancy and
there's a big spike aroundmenopause - perimenopause into
menopause. So, let's see, I cancheck off so many boxes on this.
(48:49):
And I'm thinking about what arethe things that capitalism does
give us. There is a robustmarket in cooling sheets and
sleep wear but I'm still lookingfor the perfect combination,
personally. I'm lucky if I canget back to sleep if I wake up
hot. And then there's the wholejust not sleeping well, in
general for me.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (49:11):
Right.
Same same. So I just likesomeone just mentioned this. I
heard two women talking aboutthis as I'm walking. Like some
sort of cooling system and I'mlike,
Larissa Parson (49:24):
(laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (49:24):
going to follow you into this coffee
shop. (laughter).
So why do we hear about breastcancer more than we hear about
perimenopause? Why are bcbillboards urging me to get a
mammogram? Why when I google"what percentage of breast
cancer is detectable throughmammography?" (because while
mammography is lauded as Thedetection method, it is not a
(49:47):
perfect tool and cannot detectall breast cancer), do I get an
article at Komen.com instead ofsomething from the I don't know,
National Cancer Institute? WebMD? breast cancer.org? Why am I
getting an article from Komen?
Until very recently, likepandemic recently--which I think
is superinteresting--perimenopause and
(50:09):
menopause were not well fundedor well researched. And they are
becoming more so. We've gotventure capitalists, who's may
or may not be women goingthrough menopause themselves, or
who have family or partnersgoing through menopause, and
they're seeing menopause as this$600 billion opportunity. That's
(50:29):
a number that was cited recentlyin Forbes, so we're seeing that
there's an audience for this.
And venture capitalists areresponding appropriately, well,
maybe not "appropriately" butthey're stepping up to this
capitalist need, which may ormay not be the answer, but maybe
it's a part of the answer? It'snot an either/ or I guess.
Larissa Parson (50:54):
I'm surprised that the boomers didn't get this
just because there were a lot ofthem. Now, it's like the
millennials going throughperimenopause with the Gen Xers,
and this is where it's comingin.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (51:05):
Well, I think boomers not getting it
goes back to me for a whole wayaround how we talk about sex
generally.
Larissa Parson (51:12):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (51:14):
I've done a lot of research around how we
talk about sex and bodies. Andso people refer to things as
female troubles, whether that'sboomers or boomers parents,
they're not going to say thatthere's an opportunity or a need
here.
Larissa Parson (51:27):
Right. And there's a lot less shame in Gen
X and younger generations aroundthat.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (51:31):
I agree.
Larissa Parson (51:32):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you're totally right. Allright. So maybe we need a
'Turning Red' movie for women"of a certain age". And wait,
can we just talk about "of acertain age"? I feel like this
is also a thing that hopefullyis going away with boomers where
we're feeling ashamed about howold we are. Can we just stop
pretending that we're not over40? Can we maybe not have that
(51:55):
be a thing? I'm gonna say, tocall back to my reading from
earlier - that book was about avery young person, so I'm not
even gonna get into it. But I'vebeen doing some research on, and
by research, I mean reading.
I've been reading books in oneof my favorite niches,
(52:18):
paranormal, romance, fantasytype stuff. And every time
there's a female main characterwho has over 40, it skips over
whether there's a change orwhat's happening in her body.
There is no information otherthan like, maybe an occasional
reference to like a hot flash,like once, and maybe a reference
(52:41):
to how her body just isn't whatit used to be. There's a lot of
body shame, or a lot of bodydisparagement, or a lot of talk
about stretch marks and looseskin and you know, all of this
stuff. And, I want to see thistime, this perimenopausal time,
as a fiery transformation, aPhoenix-like reclamation of
(53:03):
ourselves, instead of this kindof like, shuffling off into into
invisibility into the sunset. SoI think writing my novel is
getting higher on my to do list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (53:15):
Yeah, that might need to boost it up a
couple spots, maybe into the top10. (laughter)
This is one of the reasons why Istarted out saying I'm 49. I
tried to bring it up inconversation when it makes
sense, you know, but I thinkthis is really important. We
(53:37):
have such a skewed sense as towhat age is (looks like) and who
is obsessed our age. Sometimes Ipost a picture a celebrity who's
my age. I'm like, "she's my age,we are the same age." So this
is what (49) could look like. Imean, I don't look like her
(53:58):
necessarily, but this is whatthis age looks like. We don't
know people who are our even ourown age.
Larissa Parson (54:03):
Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (54:03):
Sometimes there's shame associated with
the age, but also like, oh, do Isay that out loud to people?
Anyway, there's this reallyinteresting 2016 Fast Company
article that asked "Why is noone talking about an important
topic that affects 27 millionpeople at work every day?" And
the (female) author answers withsexism and ageism. And that
(54:29):
makes sense, at least in part,at least when we're talking
about work. But I think it'sbigger than that. When we think
about what gets talked about,what gets public air time, what
gets news coverage and not justin Glamour or even Fast Company,
(54:49):
we can follow the trail to whatgets funded and what experts get
training onThis is one of my big soap
boxes, you know. So, capitalismand the patriarchy
Larissa Parson (55:01):
Duhhhhh!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (55:01):
We're not talking about these things. How
can we eliminate domesticviolence and sexual assault?
Well, we have to eliminateracism and sexism first. So
there's that. We just sort oftalk in these euphemisms. Like,
"here's this over here." And "ifwe could only do....". No, no.
If you could only tell people tosay no. No, no let's not blame
(55:24):
the victims here. Let's notblame the people who are going
through it. Let's blame thepeople who are in charge of the
systems of oppression that weare forced to live, work and
play under. Let's do that.
Capitalism is what's driving oureconomy. Why is no one funding
this except venture capitalists?
Capitalism, of course. Thiscapitalist model even shows up
(55:46):
at places where like theNational Cancer Institute-- how
can it not?--it's part of thesame system: patriarchy. It's
the old boys network thatcontinues to dictate what med
schools and nursing schools andprobably PT schools and OT
schools all of these places,dictating what all these schools
are teaching their students.
Larissa Parson (56:05):
Oh, fun fact! If you want to specialize in pelvic
health, you don't get a unit onthat in PT school. You have to
go do extra work later. So youhave to do extra training, or OT
school. For both of them, youhave to go find a pelvic health
program that you can join andstudy in. So yeah, it's
everywhere. It's everywhere. Andit's also like, the
(56:34):
institutional fat phobia thatshows up in the same places. Oh,
you're peeing your pants whenyou run. You should lose weight.
Really? Really? Come on.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (56:57):
Yeah, it's these biases. It's a lack
of training. It's the systems ofoppression. All of these things
are contributing as to why we'retalking more about breast
cancer. And of course, it'simportant to talk about. No one
here is saying it's notimportant to be talking about
breast cancer.
Larissa Parson (57:11):
Nope.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (57:11):
What we are saying is it is equally
important to talk aboutsomething that affects every
single one, not a single one, agood portion of the population.
And that is not necessarilytrue, at least at this point.
with breast cancer. These thingsare super important, too. It's a
both/and.
Larissa Parson (57:26):
I was gonna say it's a yes, and. Yes, let's talk
about breast cancer, and let'stalk about perimenopause. And
let's talk about puberty. Andlet's talk about pregnancy. And
let's talk about abortion. Okay.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (57:40):
So, just to sort of sum us up here...
perimenopause, and menopause arethese female troubles that are
still antiquated terms, both inantiquated concepts and in how
medical providers see them.
Because they don't get anytraining on them, either. This
is also extra stuff.
Larissa Parson (57:54):
Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (57:55):
And how the general public, especially
women, sees them.
Larissa Parson (57:58):
Yeah. Right. So we know that the best way to
change this is to start talkingabout them and keep talking
about them, with our friendswith our families, and
especially to make sure thatpeople who do not have uteruses
understand and see these not asvague female troubles, but as
(58:23):
actual things that happen to thepeople with uteruses that they
love.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (58:30):
Yeah, so let's just because this is the
"how" here, right? We talk onWondermine about the "how" and
the "wow". tThis is one of those"how's". How to start having
conversations like this withyour right people, right
relationships. So if it feelsweird to talk about it with a
male partner --maybe this isjust not where you've ever gone
(58:51):
before--start getting comfortaround this by talking about it
with one of those real rightpeople (girlfriend, bestie) and
then gain some comfort aroundit. And then bring it up to the
male partner who do not have auterus and who has no concept of
what you're going through. And -who probably in their own family
(59:13):
of origin - would never haveknown their mom or sister was
dealing with something as commonas perimenopause.
Larissa Parson (59:20):
Or as common as cramps...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (59:22):
Or as common as cramps.
Larissa Parson (59:23):
We can start there, too. We didn't even talk
about like the awfulness ofperiods.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (59:30):
Yes, Larissa tell us a little bit
about how we can talk about thismaybe in more of a safe space.
If we don't have those folks.
Larissa Parson (59:41):
Okay, so this is what I do in the Slow Burn. I
host to weekly groupconversations where we talk
about the how of all this. Wetalk about how to have these
conversations and sometimes wejust vent about the world and
that is what we do. So the SlowBurn is a place to be witnessed
in your messy middle and yourmessy midlife.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:00:03):
So I feel like sometimes the conversations
that I have -- and I know thatyou have too-- are I don't have
those people out there in mylife for whatever reason. COVID
aside or even without COVID. Andso this is one of these spaces
that exist online, where we canshow up in all of our fullness,
(01:00:23):
and we not gonna see thosepeople again for a couple more
days, or maybe we don't evenknow them in real life. All
good. So, thank you for that.
Larissa Parson (01:00:30):
A lot of them we don't. Yeah, thank you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:00:33):
Um, can we close with what we're eating?
Larissa Parson (01:00:36):
Ah, yes, I have a rave.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:00:40):
I'm excited.
Larissa Parson (01:00:41):
I'm sorry, if you're not local to me, because
I have a total rave. If you arelocal, and you have reached your
limit on cooking for this timein your life, which happens to
me quite often, I just don'thave the spoons sometimes for
it, you have got to check outRedstart Foods. We'll put a link
(01:01:01):
in the show notes. I have trieda lot over this pandemic, a lot
of make my life easier byletting me reheat food instead
of cook options. You know, andsome of them trick you because
you think you're going to bereheating food, and then you're
chopping vegetables for 30minutes and very angry about the
whole situation. This is notthat. This is the best one of
(01:01:22):
these things that I have tried.
The flavors are vibrant andfresh. The portion sizes are
generous enough that you haveleftovers and you get your
money's worth. I ordered a lotof food for this week. And it
costs about the same as agrocery run when I plan meals
for that many days. So you know,it's not like going to
McDonald's for every meal cheap,but it's cheaper than a lot of
(01:01:45):
takeout options. Like if I triedto buy my family this much food
at takeout it'd be three timesas much around here. Yeah. And
so let me think, what was myfavorite thing this week? I
don't know. Because I haven'teaten at all. But there was a
key lime pie in this week'sorder. That was delicious. I've
been trying to like spread itout until I get my my CSA
(01:02:07):
ordered today, because I'm justlike, it's so good.
I'm totally going to check out.
I did not know about this. I'mkind of surprised this has not
come up before.
Yeah, it was on a thread in aFacebook group that we're both
in. Somebody had asked aboutmeal prep options. And I was
like, oh, that's new. So Iclicked over to it. It was so
(01:02:31):
good.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:02:33):
I'm totally checking it out. Mine is
also local, so sorry, y'all. Weare in an all veggie CSA that
just started. And one of thethings that I like about it is
that it's very close by I don'thave to go far because I
struggle with getting in the carand leaving Durham. So this is
(01:02:55):
really nice. It is every otherFriday. So tomorrow is a pickup
day. And there have been somesuper fresh veggies we've had.
I've had some incredible rainbowchard, incredible. Did I have a
snap pea? Um, lots of goodgreens. It's a really nice way
to kind of have some things andjust have them good to go in the
(01:03:16):
fridge. Of course you need to dostuff with them. So that's the
other part of it, but they dogive you recipes. They are a
local farm that I'm just reallyloving right now. I'm gonna see
how it goes without fruit,because that's just not what
they do. But I'm getting thestrawberries from other places.
So I'm doing fine with that. Butthat's a yummy new thing that
(01:03:39):
I'm liking.
Larissa Parson (01:03:40):
That sounds delightful. Oh, I forgot to say
Redstart delivers to your door.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:03:44):
What?
Larissa Parson (01:03:45):
Ah, that's the best part.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:03:49):
Gosh, totally checking out now.
Larissa Parson (01:03:54):
Okay, so that's probably enough about what we're
eating. If you'd like to supportour work here on the podcast,
you can head over topatreon.com/wondermine where
you'll have access to our bonusepisodes, and whatever other
awesomeness Elizabeth and I comeup with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:04:13):
Mmmmm. We are so grateful every time you
share Wondermine with friends.
Writing us a review will helpothers find their "wow" and
"how" of a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation.
Larissa Parson (01:04:26):
And in the interim, you can follow us at
@wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thanks again for listening andwe are so delighted that you're
here.
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