June 21, 2022 • 51 mins
Elizabeth and Larissa tackle self-care: what it is, what it isn't, and how to make it more doable and accessible.
Robert Kolker, Hidden Valley Road
Melissa Bashardoust, Girl, Serpent, Thorn
Audre Lorde’s self care quote is from A Burst of Light
Tamela Gordon’s Instagram post about how self-care needs to be accessible
Maintenance Phase Michael Pollan episode
NATO Cafeteria SNL skit
Robert Jones, Jr. on Substack
Noreena Hertz, The Lonely Century
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:00):
Welcome to Wondermine, Season Two. I'm
Larissa Parson. I'm a joy coach,a movement teacher, a writer and
podcaster, a mom to twins, a bitof a hippie, and this episode, I
am no longer allowed to bringjigsaw puzzles into my house.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:18):
And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a
parent, a partner, a rapesurvivor and writer. I talk
about relationships, trauma anddecision making. And I have
recently rediscovered coloringsheets and pencils.
Larissa Parson (00:33):
So fun. Yeah. So if you're new here, hello. We're
the duo behind this feministpodcast that looks at the Wow
and the how of living a liferooted in curiosity, community
and liberation. If you've everfelt like something was missing,
or you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
(00:55):
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:56):
Thank you to our patrons, we're so
grateful you're here. Being apatron starts at $5, $10 or $15
a month, Patrons get monthlybonus episodes and can
participate in our virtualmonthly book club starting in
June, and so much more. If youtoo, would like to support the
show--thank you!- you can dothat by visiting
(01:18):
patreon.com.com/wondermine. Andif you cannot, we'd love you to
leave us five stars on yourpodcast player. If you don't
want to, that's okay, too. We'rejust glad you're here.
Larissa Parson (01:32):
So today, we're talking about self care, just
not quite in the way that youthink. We're considering self
care through the lens we'reusing this season - what we
don't talk about and why. But asalways, before we get started,
we're going to talk about whatwe're reading. Elizabeth, what
are you reading?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:51):
I just finished a book called Hidden
Valley Road. This book is acouple of years old but it just
sort of came into my world inthe past couple of weeks. And as
usual, I borrowed it from thelibrary. It is by a man named
Robert Kolker and it'sessentially a look at a family
(02:14):
of twelve kids who for the mostpart are located in Colorado.
And six of them are diagnosedpretty early on --as is often
sort of the case withschizophrenia--six of them are
diagnosed with schizophrenia. Itis a really fascinating look
(02:34):
into some of the things that I'msuper interested in:
relationships, impact of trauma,and things like family dynamics.
So Kolker spends an incredibleamount of time interviewing most
of the siblings--the siblingswho are still alive (that's not
really giving away very much)and talking with them about
(02:55):
their experiences living in thisfamily. I like it for a number
of reasons. But I do think it'san important rebuttal of the
"kids are resilient" narrative,which I still see used a lot.
And while children areresilient, we are all resilient.
There are some stressors that weshould never experience and that
(03:20):
obviously will be harder to getover, if we can ever get over
them. So very, very fascinatingbook. If you're interested in
families, family dynamics andrelationships, I definitely
recommend checking it out.
Larissa Parson (03:31):
Very cool. So Elizabeth, what I am reading
this week is Girl, SerpentThorn, by Melissa Bashardoust.
And it is this, why a fairy taledrawing on sleeping beauty and
(03:51):
Persian literature andmythology. And it's really cool.
It's got elements of magic andelements of romance. And, you
know, bad guys and good guys. Byguys, I mean people. And there's
(04:11):
bi representation in it, and thepeople you think are going to be
the bad people turned out to begood, and the people you think
are going to be the good peopleturned out to be bad. So there's
this real like, complexity ofcharacter, which I always
appreciate, in a book that Iknow has basically a happy
ending coming. Like, I I don'twant it to just be black and
white. I want it to be a littlemore nuanced than that. And I
(04:35):
really appreciate it and it wasjust a fun read. Lots of fun.
Elizabeth M. John (04:40):
"Contemporary spin on old fairy tale" esque.
Larissa Parson (04:45):
Yes, yeah, but it's definitely in like a
mythological time setting.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:49):
Oh, okay.
Gotcha.
Larissa Parson (04:50):
Yeah, yeah. So highly recommend if that's the
kind of thing you like, I thinkI gave it four stars or
something like that on myGoodreads so it was a great
read, not like a mind-blowing,amazing read, but really just
solid. And that's it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:05):
Neat.
Larissa Parson (05:05):
Oh, yeah, thanks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:08):
Okay. Um, can we start this conversation
about self care by talking aboutwhat it actually is? We hear a
lot of what self care looks likeor sounds like or is supposed to
be. But as I think you and I'vetalked a great deal before and
(05:28):
as we're prepping for thisepisode, some of that language,
recommendations thinking aroundis really problematic. So maybe
a definition would be a goodplace for us to begin.
Larissa Parson (05:40):
Yeah, and I think we've really been playing
with this definition quite abit, I can think of multiple
walks, where we've been like,what is self care anyway.
So...and I think that we'regoing to offer a definition, but
knowing us, as we learn more,grow more, rest more, reflect
more, it will probably change.
But for right now, we have this.
(06:02):
Self care is nurturingourselves, through acts of love,
and with intention. I love that.
Like, I love a nurturingourselves.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:15):
I like it, too. I am trying to have us
avoid using care as part of thedefinition, which is really,
which is really tricky. Becauselisteners who have looked for
definitions will find self carehas "care" in the definition.
And I just struggle as a writer,and a lover of words, with that.
(06:35):
I get why, but I liked this. Ilike where we're at with this. I
also like the pieces that haveto do with intentionality. And
so I like that bit in there.
Larissa Parson (06:49):
Yeah, yes. So when we think about
intentionality and self care, Ialways love to go back to
thinking about self care as arevolutionary act. And as a way
of resisting the system. And forthat, I always like to quote the
OG of self care, Audre Lorde.
And the entirety of this quote,as opposed to the one sentence
(07:10):
that usually gets quoted.
"Caring for myself is not selfindulgence. It is self
preservation. And that is an actof political warfare." And she
goes on to say--this is theimportant part, "overextending
myself is not stretching myself.
I had to accept how difficult itis to monitor the difference."
(07:31):
That's to say the differencebetween overextending and
stretching, because stretchingis okay. Overextending is not.
So what we're talking about whenwe talk about self care is not
necessarily fancy spa days,though, yes, that can be an act
of political warfare as well,right? Like we can choose that.
But mostly, we're talking aboutnoticing when we are over
(07:55):
extended, and refusing to engagein the overextension that
capitalism demands of us. Thatis the revolutionary part of it.
That is, the radical part of itis saying, "I am not going to
engage in over extension.
Instead, I'm going to nurturemyself with acts of love, and
(08:20):
intention."
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:24):
I want to go back to Audre Lorde, just a
second here, because I thinkit's really important. This
(quote above) is part of areally interesting, bigger,
longer quote, which we didcondense down here just
slightly, but the context issolid. And I think it's
important to say that this(self-care) is something that
Lorde literally worked on --andI'm no expert here, but I have
read a lot of her work-- this issomething she worked on for her
(08:44):
entire life.
Larissa Parson (08:46):
Yes!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:48):
Yeah, this was a continual process. This
was a process through her cancerjourneys, right, and through her
different relationships, throughthe different work that she was
doing. So this is not --it's anoticing in the moment when
we're there and from a day today-- but it's also noticing, as
a lifelong kind of process orpractice that we put ourselves
(09:11):
in.
Larissa Parson (09:12):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:13):
And this overextension piece. I think it
feels like... not a small thing,but it all it feels like... a
vague idea. What does that evenmean? What does it mean when we
get overextended? I'm definitelyprone to-- let me speak for
(09:34):
myself-- I'm prone to pushingthrough something even when I am
at my creative end with it oreven when I am tapped out or
even when the words are notcoming. So like I noticed it,
whatever, three o'clock, fouro'clock when the day is done, or
even when I'm really done, likeafter dinner in a meeting and
I'm kind of really grasping fora word or something like that.
(09:54):
I'm just like, "I'm just tryingto push through this and this is
this is not my best work." Ishould probably just stop.
Larissa Parson (10:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, for me over extensiontends to not quite look like
that. But it does tend to looklike, well, I'll just do this
one more thing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:10):
That too.
Larissa Parson (10:11):
Or I will plan a really busy day even though I'm
tired. And that's usually whathappens. Or I plan a day with no
breaks in it, or not enoughbreaks in it. So that is often
what it looks like for me. I'mreally proud of myself, as a
sidenote, Elizabeth last night,I had a thing, and I realized I
hadn't done it. And it was 10o'clock. And I was like, Oh,
(10:31):
it'll just take me 20... No,going to bed. Stop.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:35):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (10:35):
Like, just that moment of noticing. I had this
impulse to do the thing. I don'thave to.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (10:44):
So, so, self care is often offered up to us.
So like with this idea that selfcare can be a revolutionary act,
or we can change the system withself care. But no amount of self
care is going to change thesystem unless we add community
into the care. And we can't selfcare our way out of a pandemic.
(11:06):
We can't self care our way outof cis hetero normative white
supremacist, ablest capitalistpatriarchy. It's because self
care is a life long.... thing.
Quest was the word that wascoming to mind.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:24):
Process?
Larissa Parson (11:25):
It is, it is something that doesn't go away.
We don't like, (do) self care,and then we're done. So it's
when it's offered to us as anindividual solution to problems
that are actually systemic, thatjust... it messes with us
mentally. And there are lots ofdifferent problems where self
care is offered up as thesolution, oh, you're burnt out?
(11:46):
Self care will fix that. Oh,you're overwhelmed by the amount
of emotional labor it takes toraise a child during a pandemic?
Self care will take care ofthat. Just get a bubble bath,
that will take care of that. Youknow, you don't need childcare.
You don't need a universal basicincome, so you can afford
things. Traumatized by medicalproviders who don't listen to
(12:07):
you because of the scolor, thecolor of your skin or the size
of your body? Oh, self care willhelp you recover from that.
Like, let's not train providersto be better at working with
humans. Self care will fix that.
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:25):
I think these are really good specific
examples of how we see self careused as a tool that one can
"indulge in or engage in" whichreally can't change any of the
systemic problems that arereally getting us to a point of
exhaustion, or burnout ortraumatized or being in a
(12:47):
traumatized state. And I want togo back to the idea of community
here and just we're gonna bringthis idea into this conversation
more during our time togethertoday and the fact that we can't
self care our way out of apandemic.
So this is why we're talkingabout this topic this season.
Because we really haven't heardas much about the messaging
(13:11):
behind self care. Which I thinkis the self improvement kind of
hype-y stuff. It's like, if youdo this (thing) you will be
better, you will be cured, youwill be stronger, you will be
healthier, you will be normal.
And it's this constant push toimprove ourselves, to better
ourselves. And these messages,we really need to name as the
oppressive tools that they are,and really start to notice how
(13:35):
they show up both in our owndialogue with ourselves, but
also in what we're exposingourselves to within our greater
community or whatever we'rereading or looking at, we're
watching, etc.
But something that I thinkyou're also challenging here is
who gets to access self care. Ithink you'd think of the bubble
(13:59):
bath or just go on a spa day, orif you're traumatized, maybe
just go get some help, orwhatever. But is this open to
anyone? We know that this is notthe case.
Larissa Parson (14:13):
Right. I love Tamela Gordon's way of talking
about this, and I don't have aquote right up, like right here.
But we will link to something inthe show notes about the
accessibility of self care.
Basically, her point is, ifyou're selling self care, is it
really accessible if it requiresyou to buy $100 face cream to do
(14:33):
it? There are lots of...does itrequire you to have a bathtub to
soak in? Does it require thatyou have time to go see a mental
health provider or insurance orfind it or money?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:48):
Or even to find one who's culturally
competent or close in yourneighborhood or network.
Larissa Parson (14:53):
All of that.
Yes, exactly. So, so many, thereare so many barriers to a lot of
the self care that we are toldwe need to do. And there are
many ways to care for yourselfthat don't require any of those
things. And I'm like, Yeah, Iwant systemic change so that we
can all see providers who areculturally competent to work
(15:15):
with us, and are nearby and arefinancially accessible.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:23):
Yeah. So you're bringing us to this point
of what really gets in the wayof our self care? And I want to
spend some time on that too.
Right. So it's really importantto name here really clearly,
that not everyone gets to accessself care in the way that it is
marketed to us, or that it istalked about with us.
Larissa Parson (15:42):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:43):
Yeah. What does get in the way of self
care? Let's like really bringthis home and be crystal clear,
I think.
Larissa Parson (15:48):
Okay. So like I was saying, I want systemic
change, because that is the bigpicture. Yeah, what, and what
gets in the way of self care isoften a lack of community care,
that includes systemic care.
That's the big picture communitythat we're talking about the
lack of childcare, lack ofhealth care, etc. It can also
look like the smallercommunities we find ourselves
(16:09):
in, it is easier to make timefor self care when you are held
in community, because thenyou're not the only one doing
everything. You know?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:21):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (16:21):
So that feeling that feeling of being the only
one doing everything is often ahighly gendered feeling. The
cultural expectations of womenrequire that we provide so much
care to others first, just somuch care. And I really don't
want to be super cis normativehere. But I am being super cis
(16:44):
normative here, I just want tocall that out. Like I Yes, I am,
I'm doing that. But we are toldthat we need to provide so much
care to other people first, andthen we get to fill our own
cups. And, and I think thatmaybe like a little bit of
perfectionism comes into playhere, not only do we need to do
it all we need to do it allwell. But to go back to
(17:06):
community, you need your rightpeople, and right relationships,
in order to have that support tomake time to take care of
yourself. That might look like ameal train, after anything,
surgery, a divorce, a move,anything. It might look like a
(17:28):
regular lunch date with friends,it might look like the text you
send to check in on your friendwho is going.... I was gonna say
who's going through a hard time,but like, just check in on your
friend, period.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (17:42):
This is a theme that we come back to
--because Larissa and I feel sostrongly about this -- time and
time again on this show (17:49):
the idea of right people and right
relationships. They justliterally will save us, they
literally will be the thing thatsaves us.
Larissa Parson (18:01):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (18:02):
And that's our individual change that we
can make. And we are also fullyrecognizing that we cannot,
--even with all of that -- westill need these systemic
changes to happen. So we canhave space even like a systemic
change, like things just likeyou just mentioned, universal
basic income. But if we cannotget the big thing right now,
(18:27):
here are some of these othersmaller things that we can do--
smaller in the sense that it issomething that we have power and
control over -- which isrealizing and actively building
and prioritizing right peopleand right relationships. And I
think that something that'stricky here is there's a real
(18:52):
--well, different people callthis different things-- but
there's a real toxicindividualism or hyper
individualism or bootstrappingkind of mentality, just get it
done when it comes to self care.
Right. So mentioning thiscommunity aspect is really,
really important. Because Icannot think --and I am as a
survivor and I've spoken toother survivors about this
(19:15):
survivors who've endured somereally brutal things over the
course of their life--but thereis a lot that maybe not
necessarily it doesn't getfixed, but it feels better when
we talk about it with our rightpeople or right relationships.
Larissa Parson (19:30):
Yes, yes, yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:33):
And that right there is an act of self
care, right? The idea that I'mgoing to talk with this person
about this thing that is justfeels so gross or shame-y to me,
or I'm really embarrassed about.
It (talking) dissipates a bit.
The power of that darkemotion-that's a Miriam
(19:54):
Greenspan term- goes away. Evenslightly, maybe big, maybe small
but it goes away a little whenwe talk about it with someone
who gets us. And that is a rightperson or right relationship.
Larissa Parson (20:06):
Yes, yes. I think that connecting with
people who get us--right people,right relationships--helps
remove the layer of toxicindividualism that we place, or
(20:26):
our culture places, over selfcare, like you were saying. When
we start thinking that it's allthose, these doable things are
all up to us. Like these littlethings, like, the non-systemic
things, it's just down to me,then we get caught in our own
heads, and we start thinkingabout, well, I need to, I need
(20:47):
to, I need to do this thingmyself. I don't, I can't rely on
anybody else in my life to dothis thing for me, or to help me
do this thing or support me indoing this thing. And that,
again, leads us back to thatperfectionistic thinking that,
well, if I'm the only one whocan do it, then I have to do it
perfectly, or it's no good. Andso I think it's important to
(21:12):
emphasize that self care doesn'tneed to be something that we end
up being perfectionist about,it's very easy to fall into that
trap, just like with pleasure,because pleasure can be part of
your self care, right? So justlike the pleasure, we can start
thinking that our self careneeds to look a certain way,
especially if we look at all themarketing about self care. And
(21:36):
that's just wrong.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:37):
Yeah, yeah. And I go back a lot to
that example that you used inseason one -that episode on
play, I want to say, likeEpisode Four --you said, "Well,
you and I just talking togetheris like a form of play."
And I waslike, "that's so interesting,"
Larissa Parson (21:57):
Right.
because we get in our minds, ourheads about these concepts about
what play needs to look likethis. We need to be in a game or
in a in a moment of likespontaneity or climbing
something or something reallylike fun or something that looks
(22:17):
active. But it's justperfectionism. Something needs
to look a certain way. Self carecan kind of feel that way too
and it doesn't have to.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (22:31):
It also feels important to say that self
Larissa Parson (22:31):
Yeah.
An aspect of my own self carethat's become a lot less rigid
care can change, right? If it'sthis practice, we're involved
in, we're noticing thisthroughout the course of our
is when it comes to certainfoods. You know, I was a
life where we are overextendedand how do we dial back from
that. And how do we rest andcare for ourselves? So there's
going to be changes throughoutour life where self care is
(22:53):
going to look different.
lifelong vegetarian from earlyhigh school through right before
I had my daughter. I had nochildren and my partner was a
chef and a baker. I had manyfriends in the food industry and
(23:15):
this all made it really easy forme to not deal with any meat.
But when my kid was born I wasravenous. I could not and I
struggled -- I was breastfeedingher all the time --I struggled
with getting full and justfeeling like like I was
constantly behind the eight ballfeeling really hungry. And my
neighbor -- you know speakingabout communities -- my neighbor
(23:38):
brought me food. And she didn'twe hadn't lived there very long.
She's just a lovely woman. Andshe had just bought a bunch of
things from Southern Season.
I miss that place.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:48):
Yep, same.
She brought me some some sliced,smoked ham and really beautiful
cheese and some breads and someother stuff. And I ate some of
it and I was so glad. I was likeso happy I did. But I struggled.
I'm not even joking. I struggledwith the guilt about this for
years, like I don't even know...
five years. And I would eat somemeat and I hate myself for it
(24:09):
because I was a vegetarian. Ireally had some strong beliefs
around what that meant. And nowat this point, I am basically
only eating pork, trying to getit as local as I possibly can.
Most of the time, that's totallynot perfect. I just just do the
best I can with this. Because Iknow being overly rigid when it
(24:31):
comes to food not only leaves meeffing hungry, but it also makes
me really bitchy.
Larissa Parson (24:37):
Yeah
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:37):
I'm really unpleasant to be around while
also leaving me overly focusedon food. So those are like three
really unhappy ways to be andthat's where a little of where
that past (change in self-care)has come from for me. It's that
(24:58):
process and that practice thatcontinues.
Larissa Parson (25:01):
Yes, yes, Elizabeth, I feel like I love, I
love hearing this story aboutyou, because I didn't know any
of this before we were workingon this episode. And I feel like
so many people's lives wouldimprove with less rigidity and
fear around food. And I thinkthat, you know, y'all! Go listen
(25:22):
to the Maintenance Phase episodeabout Michael Pollan. And start
unwinding that a little bit.
Yeah, I think that's a reallygood place to start with
unwinding some of that rigidity.
And, and, to go back to I alsohad this other thought, while
you were speaking, I was like,oh, to go back to some of the
stages of life and what selfcare looks like in different
(25:43):
stages of life. And to call backto Tamela Gordon's work, like
what what does free or very lowcost self care look like? I am
remembering. Like, I grew uptaking baths, I love taking
baths, that was great. But Iremember being in grad school
only having a shower. And usinga bowl to soak my feet, and to
(26:03):
take care of my feet. And thatwas a ritual that I engaged in
every week with, you know, like$1, a dollar bottle of nail
polish, probably Wet N Wild fromthe drugstore. But that was one
of my self care rituals was thisthing. It was, it cost almost
nothing to soak my feet in somewater with a little soap, and
(26:26):
clean them up and polish mynails. It took time. But I could
study while I was doing it orwhatever. Yeah. So anyway, just
throwing that out there as a ,asa like, these are the..and that
was a stage of my life, that wasa very important ritual for many
years.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:43):
Yeah, I think this is also one of these
ways that we can---whensomething doesn't work for us,
for whatever reason--I know somesurvivors who would absolutely
avoid it, like a hot bathcompletely, just not good for
them. They don't like it. Butstill, we all deserve to soak
our feet, and maybe just feel alittle bit more relaxed. And
(27:03):
whether we're soaking your feetand doing our little cute toes,
or we're just putting some Epsomsalts in there, or whatever it
is. But just to kind of soak andsink in the very nature of this
(self-care) process can bereally relaxing. And it's also
another piece, right? And we'llget into this titration idea,
but this is a piece that you cancontrol.
Larissa Parson (27:23):
Yes!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:23):
That you can take some, you know,
ownership around and see how itworks for you. Um, I would say I
think it's important to notethat for me, this is something
I've long advocated is that thehigher level of stress I'm
under, the greater quality andquantity of self care I need. So
(27:47):
I rest more when things arereally, really hard. I will eat
more prepared foods, I will cookless, bake less that kind of
thing. And there's an inverserelationship there. Like the
greater the stress, the more youneed to do this.
Larissa Parson (28:03):
Yes, I absolutely. I agree. And this is
why I was but and I feel likethere's a yes. And here there's
like multiple actual tendrils ofYes. And here, one of them is,
this is why I can't have jigsawpuzzles anymore, because I was
under under a tremendous amountof stress. And all I did was a
jigsaw puzzle last week. I couldnot work. And that was important
(28:26):
and necessary. And I need tofind another way! It's too
absorbing. So I need to findanother way to self care that
can be split up better. And andI also want to say that often
the higher level of stress andchallenge that you're under, and
the more self care you need, theharder sometimes it is to get it
(28:47):
unless you have community tosupport you.
Yep, yep, that's right.
I'm just throwing that outthere. Because I really think. I
really, really think, again, Iwant to call out the system on
this. Because part of thatstress is systemic. For so many
of us, anyway...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:09):
Yeah because it's exhausting.
Larissa Parson (29:11):
really exhausting. Completely
exhausting. Yeah, it's justexisting,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:16):
Just existing is completely
exhausting. And that will ebband flow, right? Your level of
exhaustion on a regular basis,too. So I want to add here that
I think that we -- and this issomething that sometimes I get
some pushback on and I am happyto have the pushback--but I do
believe that we need to aimhigher than simply taking a
(29:40):
shower or eating lunch as selfcare. And I get it, that
showering can feel like selfcare. When we are attached to a
newborn. I've been there. Itotally get that. And it is not
self care. These are reallybasic human needs that we need
to attend to. We need to beclean. We actually have a home
that we can live in. And we haverunning water and an indoor
(30:00):
bathroom. So we can do thesethings. But there are basic
human needs that we must meet inorder to function in healthy and
safe ways. We do need to aimhigher with some of this. So
lunch is not self care. It canlook like self care, right? It
can be, and so can the shower,right? And Larissa, you're
(30:22):
laughing here..do you want tosay what lunch as self care
might look like? Because I thinklunch just eating something is
not necessarily it.
Larissa Parson (30:31):
Yeah, I'm laughing because for much of the
pandemic lunch has been on myself care list of things,
because it's been reallychallenging. Potato chips for
lunch, y'all for three straightyears just ain't self care. That
is not self care. Something withprotein is self care. It's only
the self care that's stillmeeting my basic needs.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:50):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (30:52):
I want to say if you're at showering and eating
lunch, you're not alone. Itdoesn't have to like yes, that
can absolutely, if that, if youare not yet meeting your basic
needs, then that is where yourself care needs to lie. And
let's expand that concept ofeating lunch, to having a friend
(31:12):
bring over some lunch and spendsome time listening to me. or
figure out a way to make eatinglunch a ritual that is
pleasurable. And it doesn't takemuch. It just takes one breath
before you start eating.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:31):
I think the example of someone who's in
an office, or a teacher, youknow...so what does that (lunch)
look like? You know, lunch is...
Larissa Parson (31:39):
barely a minute...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:43):
And I would also say it's probably not
that way every single day.
Larissa Parson (31:48):
No.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:49):
There are pockets of space. And we're
getting a little ahead ofourselves with tools. But we
have to notice where the pocketsare and seize them. Just like
they are gold because they aregold before us. And if we don't
see that they are gold beforeus. We miss it.
Larissa Parson (32:03):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:04):
There are gold pockets. We just need to
take them into our hands.
Larissa Parson (32:08):
Right. So like, so like to go back to the lunch
example. And then we'll we'llstart making start moving
towards tools. I think in aminute. Yeah. But I think with
the lunch example, you know, cansomebody take for me... it's
always, can somebody take mykids so I can have some alone
time? Can I have lunch bymyself? Can I have lunch with a
friend? Can I drink, drink mydrink slowly at lunch? Like, it
(32:33):
doesn't have to be a whole lot.
And I really, for those of youwho are feeling disconnected and
alone and isolated, just becauseit's called self care doesn't
mean you have to do it alone. Itcan be like I'm gonna meet up
with my friend, or talk to myfriend on the phone while we
(32:54):
both soak our feet in a bowl ofwater.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:58):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (32:59):
And sometimes actually adding somebody in for
that-I'll call itaccountability-can, having a
buddy can make it easier to dosome self care.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:08):
Literally, I was just gonna say that! Get a
friend. Sometimes the friendmakes the self-care decision
easier to do. Because it couldbe accountability or maybe just
their presence. It's theirencouragement that they think
it's a valid thing. And...goingback to lunch, then maybe you
just walk outside after you haveeaten your snack or your
(33:32):
sandwich. But whatever yourlunch is, maybe you just take a
little bit of a walk around.
Even if it is a walk outsideyour classroom, maybe you can't
leave the building for whateverreason, got it. But even if it's
just a walk outside yourcubicle, or a walk around your
office, or a walk somewhere inthe neighborhood or something
like that, just to kind of giveyourself a little bit of a break
there. That counts.
Larissa Parson (33:53):
Yep, you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:56):
But if you're someone who's loves a
shower, let's make it more selfcare-y. And just here's some
things that you can do to makethat like more self care like.
First, I would say just takesome time in there. You can,
instead of the usual in and out,luxuriate in the heat, breathe
(34:17):
deeply in the steam, drop alittle bit of an essential oil
in there and breathe that in. Orget a shampoo brush --my
daughter didn't like her hairwashed we had a little shampoo
brush--and scrub away. Justnotice how that feels when
you've got a brush on your scalpand what that texture is like.
(34:39):
Does that feel good? Try it fora second. If it doesn't feel
good, obviously stop. Butmassaging the scalp is also
good. That just feels reallygood. Or you can do things like
oil up. Put a little oil onthere (your scalp) or get a salt
scrub or some kind of likescrubby soap. My sister gave me
this choco Body Scrub which hassome dead sea salt in it and it
(35:02):
smells like chocolate. But alsograiny and coarse. And I was
putting on my elbows and myheels in the shower and that
felt really good. So that feelsnice or maybe get a loofah that
you especially like, or likesome sort of like pretty little
bath sponge. Or -- and this isthe point where I'm just gonna
say just like, close your earsfor a second if you're not up
for any kind of like sexualcontent and give us like 10
(35:27):
seconds and then you can openyour ears back up again -- go
ahead and masturbate in theshower. Just try it. Maybe
nothing happens. Maybe itdoesn't work for you. Maybe this
is new, shame-y or weird. Andthat's okay, I totally get it.
But trying something that's newis also self care.
Larissa Parson (35:47):
Trying something that new is that's new is also
self care. I love that. And Ilove a good shower orgasm. Glad
my parents don't listen.
(laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:58):
Sexual content over now.
Uncoverthose ears for those who didn't
Larissa Parson (36:00):
Yes! want to hear that or that
doesn't feel good to them today.
Okay, so let's do you want tosay something else? Or should we
bring home to tools? Let's fleshthis out a little bit more.
Because I do like to think ideas(of what self-care can look
like) are really important.
Sure. Sure.
Okay, so one of the tools,tools, one of the ways I engage
in self care that I also talk tomy clients about a lot,
(36:23):
especially folks who are tryingto have a better relationship
with their bodies, but aren'tsure how to start, one of my
favorites... like, to like, ifyou want to have the super
shower, you got the shower thatElizabeth just told you about.
And then when you get out of theshower, taking an extra oh, 20
seconds to intentionally whenyou're lotioning up or oiling up
(36:45):
your body after the shower, doit with love. With the, like, "I
am loving on my body, when I putthis lotion on," with that kind
of intention behind it. And I dothat every day. When I get out
of the shower, I love lotionsand oils and things. So that is
one of my favorite self carethings. And it doesn't matter
(37:06):
what kind of lotion you'reusing. It can be anything.
Whatever you're using, justemulsify it in your hands a
little bit and think aboutloving on your body. You don't
have to even say I love my bodyso much, it could just be like I
am caring for my body with love.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (37:23):
And if that idea feels weird or sort of
uncomfortable for you, becauseyou are a trauma survivor, I
think a really good examplethat's worked for a number of
survivors that I've known, isputting some lotion on your
elbow. It's not a hand, it's nota foot, or on the back and neck
or belly or anything like that.
The elbow is a place thatdoesn't get a lot of love,
(37:48):
right? It's an elbow. And youcan try that and just try it.
What's the motion there? See howthat feels. You're like, "Oh,
that felt okay, that was great,"then maybe you want to do
something you want to do like anupper arm, the next time you try
this? Or maybe you just stickwith the elbow. But just to do
little bits at a time.
Larissa Parson (38:05):
Titrate it? Yes.
Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank youfor bringing that in. Yeah.
Let's see other self carepractices that I engage in.
Listening to my body andnoticing what it really wants.
So right now, it's mostly aboutsleep. Sometimes it looks like
going to bed earlier. Choosinglighter reading material.
(38:26):
Movement is pretty much alwayspart of the picture for my body,
my body wants to move even whenI don't feel like it. Just
sometimes it's stretching, juststretching on the couch. It
doesn't have to be getting upand going for a walk, though for
me that is really essential.
Sometimes it's recognizing aboutwhat no longer serves me. So
(38:48):
like, again, this is a noticingthing is this thing I'm doing
really working for me anymore?
Maybe I don't teach a certainthing or I don't pick up a hobby
that's not really interesting.
When I finally gave up on theidea that I wanted to sew my own
clothes, it was so freakingliberating. That's also, like,
noticing that I was devotingmental energy to this idea that
(39:09):
I needed to do this thing theydidn't actually want to do. When
it's optional, right? And often,I find that again, to go back to
the idea of like eating lunchwith a friend asking myself what
would make whatever hard thingis happening a little bit
(39:29):
easier. What would make thatthing easier? Would it be easier
if I sent a text to my friendElizabeth and said, Elizabeth, I
am going to do this thing. Canyou check in with me about it
later? And of course, always,always, always time with my
right people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (39:49):
Yeah, this is such a great list. So I
mentioned the food stuffalready. But also for me that's
been really important is massageas non sexual touch, which can
be really healing to sexualabuse survivors. And that's
actually something we'll make anote of in the show notes, but
(40:09):
there's a great new book calledBlack Joy. And the author
mentioned this a little bit andI think this is super
interesting. But it (massage) issomething that I only
prioritized -but also felt likeI had the financial ability to
do - in the past five or sixyears. Deep care work is really
(40:31):
important for people who do workwith vulnerable populations,
people in crisis dealing with alot of trauma--as I have--and
I'm often on, on in multiplecapacities and massage allows me
to be in a safe space relaxedand have focused on me and off.
Also rest. And that's somethingthat I've kind of gone back and
forth with but it could be likejust closing my eyes for 10
(40:53):
minutes, or it could be layingdown for 30 minutes, even if I'm
not actually sleeping.
Larissa Parson (40:57):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:58):
I do a walk every morning. With no
phone. Some distance like aroundme, I can just wander my mind
can wander I can just like dowhatever. I'm also a big -- I
don't watch anything really--except I love Saturday Night
Live reruns. And so like I willwatch those because they are
just always hysterical. Andthere are certain ones that I go
(41:20):
to like NATO Cafeteria, andthey're just like, really,
really funny. My friend Darrellalso sends me memes on
Instagram. And of course, likeone (piece of self-care) that's
like huge for me is reading.
Every day there is some reading,multiple reading in different
ways. And if you don't getRobert Jones Jr --he's the
author of The Prophets--hisnewsletter, he just started
doing it. He said this, which isso great, "One of the ways in
(41:41):
which I restore myself when I'mfeeling depleted, is through the
act of reading. " Me too Mr.
Jones. "Reading is not merely apractice in which I am
temporarily escaping the world'sharmed, it's also a space where
my creativity is inspired. Mystrategies for resistance are
shaped, and my compassion ismagnified." With that, may we
Larissa Parson (42:07):
Yes, yes. Love reading, love memes. I will take
all your memes. I love them somuch. I want to go back really
briefly to when you mentionedmassage and having resources for
massage Elizabeth, I know thatmassage is one of those things
that I also love that has fallenoff of my list lately, partly
(42:28):
mostly due to time and needs toget back on it. But I do want to
say that many areas haveaccessible massage practices. So
if you look for things likecommunity massage, that's
probably a good Google term tosearch for or community massage
clinic. I know Durham Bodyworkis one of them, places where
(42:50):
locally, you can get massagethat is not... like, that has
sliding scales. And, like, a lotof practitioners in this area
are really looking to make itaccessible to more people. And
there's so many ways thatpractitioners do this kind of
thing. And in many other places,too, you know, like many other
(43:12):
different modalities I was gonnasay. So just throwing that out
there that massage doesn't haveto be something that you have to
have a certain amount of moneyto get. It makes it easier, but
you can certainly accessmassage. Okay. Um, other
all read more.
examples of self care that camethrough, we put out a call in
(43:34):
our Instagram Stories for someother examples of self care. So
here's some of the answers wegot-- being outdoors,
journaling, solo travel, talkingto kindred spirits. Stretching,
eating food, I made cozy PJs, agood book, again, we love to
read. I love to read. Bonebroth. And I asked my Slow
(43:55):
Burners also. So what do y'alldo for self care? What do we
need? What else do we throw onthis list? And, you know, there
were some really great answers.
One that I really loved isbuilding rituals around taking
medications and supplements, andbuilding rituals around care in
general so that it's part ofyour day. It's, it's ritualized.
(44:18):
It's like brushing your teeth,it's not something you have to
make extra time for, becauseit's just part of the day. And
had making standing dates withfriends was another one and a
big picture (form of) self care,recognizing your capacity for
work, for care, for whatever,for care for others, I mean,
(44:40):
whatever, and setting boundariesaround that capacity. And that
again, goes back to the notoverextending part of what
Audrey Lord says. So...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:52):
Let's wrap up with some tools. Right. We've
touched on all of this, but Ifeel like let's name them as
tools now. What do we need tomake this happen more for us.
Larissa Parson (45:02):
Time. Community.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:05):
Yep.
Larissa Parson (45:05):
Curiosity, willing, being willing to try
new things, because you mightfind something that really
works. Yep. What else?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:12):
Titration.
So we talked about that. Justtrying something, just trying
the lotion on the elbow just fora little bit, trying it for a
couple of minutes, see how thatworks. And then build up to the
rest of the arm or your hand orwhatever, if that works for you.
Nap / rest is that way for me,you know, an hour is not really
right. For me, I really need ashorter amount of time. If I'm
going to lay down probably like30 minutes, or just noticing
(45:35):
that bit and building up to itand seeing what works.
Larissa Parson (45:43):
Yeah. Noticing, like, you know, like noticing is
part of titration. Right. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:53):
Anything else? Also right people? Yes.
Right people and rightrelationships? Right?
Larissa Parson (46:00):
I think yeah.
Oh, can we put pleasure in andplay on that, too?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:04):
Oh, yeah.
Okay, pleasure and plays astools?
Larissa Parson (46:07):
Yeah.
Because play is part of thecuriosity bit and pleasure is
like, not all self care is goingto feel pleasurable. Really,
like, sometimes you're justtaking your supplements and you
don't feel anything, but youfeel less bad. But sometimes
self care can be deeplypleasurable.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:26):
Yep, yep.
Yep.
Larissa Parson (46:29):
So as we're wrapping up, we're not going to
get into this. We're not gonnatalk about this. Here's a
question for you. Yeah. Do wethink that creating the
conditions that we all need foraccessible self care... Like, I
think that that involvesreimagining entirely the way our
society functions and if I coulddream a world where we all have
(46:51):
access to everything andanything that we didn't
everything we mentioned itanything we didn't mention, that
is the world I want to live in.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:59):
Yeah--and we don't have time to get into
this--but it's also making methink of a book that I just
picked up and it's aboutloneliness. The author is
Norena... something. I literallyjust got it and flipped open.
It's one of these books wherethey talk a lot about the
problem and then have like, youknow, 1000 words related to
(47:19):
possible changes. But one ofthem was like, we really need to
look at what neoliberalcapitalism is doing to us and
the communities that we live in.
And so I think there isabsolutely this reimagining that
needs to go on, reimagining andthen yes, rebuilding.
Larissa Parson (47:35):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:37):
Can we close with what we're eating
though? Let's go there. Do youwant to dive in there?
Larissa Parson (47:42):
Yes, sure. I'm, I have two things. One is the
strawberries that I have beengetting from the CSA have been
mind blowingly. Yes. Delicious.
Like, like mouth gasm. Mmm. Justso good. Maybe that's where I
should stop. But I also mademyself breakfast this morning. I
(48:05):
took like, two extra, 10 extraminutes to make breakfast. And I
had like, a sandwich. But it wasa fried egg and bacon and
cheese. And it was delicious.
And you know, that is when youjust have something that just
hits you just right. So yes,that is what I'm eating. And I'm
so freaking happy with it today.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:26):
Nice. My kiddo did a lemonade stand last
weekend. And we were making somesimple syrup. And I was like,
Oh, I've been getting somelavender simple syrup at Cloche
(coffee in Durham) when I'vewalked there, in my cold brew or
whatever, my latte. And it'sreally an interesting taste with
the coffee and the cream. And soI thought maybe I can just put
(48:48):
some lavender essential oil inmy simple syrup and see how that
works out. I'm playing with thata little bit. It's delicious.
And it's simple syrup. It isreally easy to do..like
shockingly easy. I was like "howdo I make simple syrup?" but I
(49:09):
have made it and it's become sothick and viscous that is just
like a syrup as opposed to kindof something you can pour and
blend more easily. So anyway,lavender simple syrup and really
like it. I'm putting a couple ofdrops of lavender essential oil
in it, and it's delicious. Soit's kind of fun.
Larissa Parson (49:27):
That sounds fabulous. So in the spirit of
neoliberal capitalism, what arethe ways yes, that we can engage
in self care? We're not reallywell, yes, no, we're stuck in a
capitalist system, y'all. Sosometimes we need to sell our
work. So one of the ways we canengage in self care is seeking
(49:48):
help when we're in need of help.
And I've opened up a few one toone coaching spots this spring
and summer. And together we canget clear on your "how" and you
get to come hang out with us inthe Slow Burn. So if you're
interested, you can message me.
No pressure, but there it is.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:06):
Nice self care and community already
established. Just join in withsomeone you know. Thanks,
Larissa.
Larissa Parson (50:14):
So if you'd like to support our work here on the
podcast, you can head on over topatreon.com/wondermine where
you'll have access to our bonusepisodes and whatever other
awesomeness Elizabeth and Icook, cook, cook up on our walks
or sitting by a pool orwhatever.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:40):
We're so grateful every time you share
Wondermine with friends. Givingus five stars or writing us a
review will help others findtheir "wow" and "how" of living
a life rooted in curiosity,community and liberation.
Larissa Parson (50:53):
And in the interim, you can follow us on
Instagram @Wonderminepodcast.
Thanks again. We are sodelighted that you've been
listening
Welcome to Wondermine, Season Two. I'm
Larissa Parson. I'm a joy coach,a movement teacher, a writer and
podcaster, a mom to twins, a bitof a hippie, and this episode, I
am no longer allowed to bringjigsaw puzzles into my house.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:18):
And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a
parent, a partner, a rapesurvivor and writer. I talk
about relationships, trauma anddecision making. And I have
recently rediscovered coloringsheets and pencils.
Larissa Parson (00:33):
So fun. Yeah. So if you're new here, hello. We're
the duo behind this feministpodcast that looks at the Wow
and the how of living a liferooted in curiosity, community
and liberation. If you've everfelt like something was missing,
or you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
(00:55):
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:56):
Thank you to our patrons, we're so
grateful you're here. Being apatron starts at $5, $10 or $15
a month, Patrons get monthlybonus episodes and can
participate in our virtualmonthly book club starting in
June, and so much more. If youtoo, would like to support the
show--thank you!- you can dothat by visiting
(01:18):
patreon.com.com/wondermine. Andif you cannot, we'd love you to
leave us five stars on yourpodcast player. If you don't
want to, that's okay, too. We'rejust glad you're here.
Larissa Parson (01:32):
So today, we're talking about self care, just
not quite in the way that youthink. We're considering self
care through the lens we'reusing this season - what we
don't talk about and why. But asalways, before we get started,
we're going to talk about whatwe're reading. Elizabeth, what
are you reading?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:51):
I just finished a book called Hidden
Valley Road. This book is acouple of years old but it just
sort of came into my world inthe past couple of weeks. And as
usual, I borrowed it from thelibrary. It is by a man named
Robert Kolker and it'sessentially a look at a family
(02:14):
of twelve kids who for the mostpart are located in Colorado.
And six of them are diagnosedpretty early on --as is often
sort of the case withschizophrenia--six of them are
diagnosed with schizophrenia. Itis a really fascinating look
(02:34):
into some of the things that I'msuper interested in:
relationships, impact of trauma,and things like family dynamics.
So Kolker spends an incredibleamount of time interviewing most
of the siblings--the siblingswho are still alive (that's not
really giving away very much)and talking with them about
(02:55):
their experiences living in thisfamily. I like it for a number
of reasons. But I do think it'san important rebuttal of the
"kids are resilient" narrative,which I still see used a lot.
And while children areresilient, we are all resilient.
There are some stressors that weshould never experience and that
(03:20):
obviously will be harder to getover, if we can ever get over
them. So very, very fascinatingbook. If you're interested in
families, family dynamics andrelationships, I definitely
recommend checking it out.
Larissa Parson (03:31):
Very cool. So Elizabeth, what I am reading
this week is Girl, SerpentThorn, by Melissa Bashardoust.
And it is this, why a fairy taledrawing on sleeping beauty and
(03:51):
Persian literature andmythology. And it's really cool.
It's got elements of magic andelements of romance. And, you
know, bad guys and good guys. Byguys, I mean people. And there's
(04:11):
bi representation in it, and thepeople you think are going to be
the bad people turned out to begood, and the people you think
are going to be the good peopleturned out to be bad. So there's
this real like, complexity ofcharacter, which I always
appreciate, in a book that Iknow has basically a happy
ending coming. Like, I I don'twant it to just be black and
white. I want it to be a littlemore nuanced than that. And I
(04:35):
really appreciate it and it wasjust a fun read. Lots of fun.
Elizabeth M. John (04:40):
"Contemporary spin on old fairy tale" esque.
Larissa Parson (04:45):
Yes, yeah, but it's definitely in like a
mythological time setting.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:49):
Oh, okay.
Gotcha.
Larissa Parson (04:50):
Yeah, yeah. So highly recommend if that's the
kind of thing you like, I thinkI gave it four stars or
something like that on myGoodreads so it was a great
read, not like a mind-blowing,amazing read, but really just
solid. And that's it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:05):
Neat.
Larissa Parson (05:05):
Oh, yeah, thanks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:08):
Okay. Um, can we start this conversation
about self care by talking aboutwhat it actually is? We hear a
lot of what self care looks likeor sounds like or is supposed to
be. But as I think you and I'vetalked a great deal before and
(05:28):
as we're prepping for thisepisode, some of that language,
recommendations thinking aroundis really problematic. So maybe
a definition would be a goodplace for us to begin.
Larissa Parson (05:40):
Yeah, and I think we've really been playing
with this definition quite abit, I can think of multiple
walks, where we've been like,what is self care anyway.
So...and I think that we'regoing to offer a definition, but
knowing us, as we learn more,grow more, rest more, reflect
more, it will probably change.
But for right now, we have this.
(06:02):
Self care is nurturingourselves, through acts of love,
and with intention. I love that.
Like, I love a nurturingourselves.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:15):
I like it, too. I am trying to have us
avoid using care as part of thedefinition, which is really,
which is really tricky. Becauselisteners who have looked for
definitions will find self carehas "care" in the definition.
And I just struggle as a writer,and a lover of words, with that.
(06:35):
I get why, but I liked this. Ilike where we're at with this. I
also like the pieces that haveto do with intentionality. And
so I like that bit in there.
Larissa Parson (06:49):
Yeah, yes. So when we think about
intentionality and self care, Ialways love to go back to
thinking about self care as arevolutionary act. And as a way
of resisting the system. And forthat, I always like to quote the
OG of self care, Audre Lorde.
And the entirety of this quote,as opposed to the one sentence
(07:10):
that usually gets quoted.
"Caring for myself is not selfindulgence. It is self
preservation. And that is an actof political warfare." And she
goes on to say--this is theimportant part, "overextending
myself is not stretching myself.
I had to accept how difficult itis to monitor the difference."
(07:31):
That's to say the differencebetween overextending and
stretching, because stretchingis okay. Overextending is not.
So what we're talking about whenwe talk about self care is not
necessarily fancy spa days,though, yes, that can be an act
of political warfare as well,right? Like we can choose that.
But mostly, we're talking aboutnoticing when we are over
(07:55):
extended, and refusing to engagein the overextension that
capitalism demands of us. Thatis the revolutionary part of it.
That is, the radical part of itis saying, "I am not going to
engage in over extension.
Instead, I'm going to nurturemyself with acts of love, and
(08:20):
intention."
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:24):
I want to go back to Audre Lorde, just a
second here, because I thinkit's really important. This
(quote above) is part of areally interesting, bigger,
longer quote, which we didcondense down here just
slightly, but the context issolid. And I think it's
important to say that this(self-care) is something that
Lorde literally worked on --andI'm no expert here, but I have
read a lot of her work-- this issomething she worked on for her
(08:44):
entire life.
Larissa Parson (08:46):
Yes!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:48):
Yeah, this was a continual process. This
was a process through her cancerjourneys, right, and through her
different relationships, throughthe different work that she was
doing. So this is not --it's anoticing in the moment when
we're there and from a day today-- but it's also noticing, as
a lifelong kind of process orpractice that we put ourselves
(09:11):
in.
Larissa Parson (09:12):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:13):
And this overextension piece. I think it
feels like... not a small thing,but it all it feels like... a
vague idea. What does that evenmean? What does it mean when we
get overextended? I'm definitelyprone to-- let me speak for
(09:34):
myself-- I'm prone to pushingthrough something even when I am
at my creative end with it oreven when I am tapped out or
even when the words are notcoming. So like I noticed it,
whatever, three o'clock, fouro'clock when the day is done, or
even when I'm really done, likeafter dinner in a meeting and
I'm kind of really grasping fora word or something like that.
(09:54):
I'm just like, "I'm just tryingto push through this and this is
this is not my best work." Ishould probably just stop.
Larissa Parson (10:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, for me over extensiontends to not quite look like
that. But it does tend to looklike, well, I'll just do this
one more thing.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:10):
That too.
Larissa Parson (10:11):
Or I will plan a really busy day even though I'm
tired. And that's usually whathappens. Or I plan a day with no
breaks in it, or not enoughbreaks in it. So that is often
what it looks like for me. I'mreally proud of myself, as a
sidenote, Elizabeth last night,I had a thing, and I realized I
hadn't done it. And it was 10o'clock. And I was like, Oh,
(10:31):
it'll just take me 20... No,going to bed. Stop.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:35):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (10:35):
Like, just that moment of noticing. I had this
impulse to do the thing. I don'thave to.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (10:44):
So, so, self care is often offered up to us.
So like with this idea that selfcare can be a revolutionary act,
or we can change the system withself care. But no amount of self
care is going to change thesystem unless we add community
into the care. And we can't selfcare our way out of a pandemic.
(11:06):
We can't self care our way outof cis hetero normative white
supremacist, ablest capitalistpatriarchy. It's because self
care is a life long.... thing.
Quest was the word that wascoming to mind.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:24):
Process?
Larissa Parson (11:25):
It is, it is something that doesn't go away.
We don't like, (do) self care,and then we're done. So it's
when it's offered to us as anindividual solution to problems
that are actually systemic, thatjust... it messes with us
mentally. And there are lots ofdifferent problems where self
care is offered up as thesolution, oh, you're burnt out?
(11:46):
Self care will fix that. Oh,you're overwhelmed by the amount
of emotional labor it takes toraise a child during a pandemic?
Self care will take care ofthat. Just get a bubble bath,
that will take care of that. Youknow, you don't need childcare.
You don't need a universal basicincome, so you can afford
things. Traumatized by medicalproviders who don't listen to
(12:07):
you because of the scolor, thecolor of your skin or the size
of your body? Oh, self care willhelp you recover from that.
Like, let's not train providersto be better at working with
humans. Self care will fix that.
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:25):
I think these are really good specific
examples of how we see self careused as a tool that one can
"indulge in or engage in" whichreally can't change any of the
systemic problems that arereally getting us to a point of
exhaustion, or burnout ortraumatized or being in a
(12:47):
traumatized state. And I want togo back to the idea of community
here and just we're gonna bringthis idea into this conversation
more during our time togethertoday and the fact that we can't
self care our way out of apandemic.
So this is why we're talkingabout this topic this season.
Because we really haven't heardas much about the messaging
(13:11):
behind self care. Which I thinkis the self improvement kind of
hype-y stuff. It's like, if youdo this (thing) you will be
better, you will be cured, youwill be stronger, you will be
healthier, you will be normal.
And it's this constant push toimprove ourselves, to better
ourselves. And these messages,we really need to name as the
oppressive tools that they are,and really start to notice how
(13:35):
they show up both in our owndialogue with ourselves, but
also in what we're exposingourselves to within our greater
community or whatever we'rereading or looking at, we're
watching, etc.
But something that I thinkyou're also challenging here is
who gets to access self care. Ithink you'd think of the bubble
(13:59):
bath or just go on a spa day, orif you're traumatized, maybe
just go get some help, orwhatever. But is this open to
anyone? We know that this is notthe case.
Larissa Parson (14:13):
Right. I love Tamela Gordon's way of talking
about this, and I don't have aquote right up, like right here.
But we will link to something inthe show notes about the
accessibility of self care.
Basically, her point is, ifyou're selling self care, is it
really accessible if it requiresyou to buy $100 face cream to do
(14:33):
it? There are lots of...does itrequire you to have a bathtub to
soak in? Does it require thatyou have time to go see a mental
health provider or insurance orfind it or money?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:48):
Or even to find one who's culturally
competent or close in yourneighborhood or network.
Larissa Parson (14:53):
All of that.
Yes, exactly. So, so many, thereare so many barriers to a lot of
the self care that we are toldwe need to do. And there are
many ways to care for yourselfthat don't require any of those
things. And I'm like, Yeah, Iwant systemic change so that we
can all see providers who areculturally competent to work
(15:15):
with us, and are nearby and arefinancially accessible.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:23):
Yeah. So you're bringing us to this point
of what really gets in the wayof our self care? And I want to
spend some time on that too.
Right. So it's really importantto name here really clearly,
that not everyone gets to accessself care in the way that it is
marketed to us, or that it istalked about with us.
Larissa Parson (15:42):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:43):
Yeah. What does get in the way of self
care? Let's like really bringthis home and be crystal clear,
I think.
Larissa Parson (15:48):
Okay. So like I was saying, I want systemic
change, because that is the bigpicture. Yeah, what, and what
gets in the way of self care isoften a lack of community care,
that includes systemic care.
That's the big picture communitythat we're talking about the
lack of childcare, lack ofhealth care, etc. It can also
look like the smallercommunities we find ourselves
(16:09):
in, it is easier to make timefor self care when you are held
in community, because thenyou're not the only one doing
everything. You know?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:21):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (16:21):
So that feeling that feeling of being the only
one doing everything is often ahighly gendered feeling. The
cultural expectations of womenrequire that we provide so much
care to others first, just somuch care. And I really don't
want to be super cis normativehere. But I am being super cis
(16:44):
normative here, I just want tocall that out. Like I Yes, I am,
I'm doing that. But we are toldthat we need to provide so much
care to other people first, andthen we get to fill our own
cups. And, and I think thatmaybe like a little bit of
perfectionism comes into playhere, not only do we need to do
it all we need to do it allwell. But to go back to
(17:06):
community, you need your rightpeople, and right relationships,
in order to have that support tomake time to take care of
yourself. That might look like ameal train, after anything,
surgery, a divorce, a move,anything. It might look like a
(17:28):
regular lunch date with friends,it might look like the text you
send to check in on your friendwho is going.... I was gonna say
who's going through a hard time,but like, just check in on your
friend, period.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (17:42):
This is a theme that we come back to
--because Larissa and I feel sostrongly about this -- time and
time again on this show (17:49):
the idea of right people and right
relationships. They justliterally will save us, they
literally will be the thing thatsaves us.
Larissa Parson (18:01):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (18:02):
And that's our individual change that we
can make. And we are also fullyrecognizing that we cannot,
--even with all of that -- westill need these systemic
changes to happen. So we canhave space even like a systemic
change, like things just likeyou just mentioned, universal
basic income. But if we cannotget the big thing right now,
(18:27):
here are some of these othersmaller things that we can do--
smaller in the sense that it issomething that we have power and
control over -- which isrealizing and actively building
and prioritizing right peopleand right relationships. And I
think that something that'stricky here is there's a real
(18:52):
--well, different people callthis different things-- but
there's a real toxicindividualism or hyper
individualism or bootstrappingkind of mentality, just get it
done when it comes to self care.
Right. So mentioning thiscommunity aspect is really,
really important. Because Icannot think --and I am as a
survivor and I've spoken toother survivors about this
(19:15):
survivors who've endured somereally brutal things over the
course of their life--but thereis a lot that maybe not
necessarily it doesn't getfixed, but it feels better when
we talk about it with our rightpeople or right relationships.
Larissa Parson (19:30):
Yes, yes, yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:33):
And that right there is an act of self
care, right? The idea that I'mgoing to talk with this person
about this thing that is justfeels so gross or shame-y to me,
or I'm really embarrassed about.
It (talking) dissipates a bit.
The power of that darkemotion-that's a Miriam
(19:54):
Greenspan term- goes away. Evenslightly, maybe big, maybe small
but it goes away a little whenwe talk about it with someone
who gets us. And that is a rightperson or right relationship.
Larissa Parson (20:06):
Yes, yes. I think that connecting with
people who get us--right people,right relationships--helps
remove the layer of toxicindividualism that we place, or
(20:26):
our culture places, over selfcare, like you were saying. When
we start thinking that it's allthose, these doable things are
all up to us. Like these littlethings, like, the non-systemic
things, it's just down to me,then we get caught in our own
heads, and we start thinkingabout, well, I need to, I need
(20:47):
to, I need to do this thingmyself. I don't, I can't rely on
anybody else in my life to dothis thing for me, or to help me
do this thing or support me indoing this thing. And that,
again, leads us back to thatperfectionistic thinking that,
well, if I'm the only one whocan do it, then I have to do it
perfectly, or it's no good. Andso I think it's important to
(21:12):
emphasize that self care doesn'tneed to be something that we end
up being perfectionist about,it's very easy to fall into that
trap, just like with pleasure,because pleasure can be part of
your self care, right? So justlike the pleasure, we can start
thinking that our self careneeds to look a certain way,
especially if we look at all themarketing about self care. And
(21:36):
that's just wrong.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:37):
Yeah, yeah. And I go back a lot to
that example that you used inseason one -that episode on
play, I want to say, likeEpisode Four --you said, "Well,
you and I just talking togetheris like a form of play."
And I waslike, "that's so interesting,"
Larissa Parson (21:57):
Right.
because we get in our minds, ourheads about these concepts about
what play needs to look likethis. We need to be in a game or
in a in a moment of likespontaneity or climbing
something or something reallylike fun or something that looks
(22:17):
active. But it's justperfectionism. Something needs
to look a certain way. Self carecan kind of feel that way too
and it doesn't have to.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (22:31):
It also feels important to say that self
Larissa Parson (22:31):
Yeah.
An aspect of my own self carethat's become a lot less rigid
care can change, right? If it'sthis practice, we're involved
in, we're noticing thisthroughout the course of our
is when it comes to certainfoods. You know, I was a
life where we are overextendedand how do we dial back from
that. And how do we rest andcare for ourselves? So there's
going to be changes throughoutour life where self care is
(22:53):
going to look different.
lifelong vegetarian from earlyhigh school through right before
I had my daughter. I had nochildren and my partner was a
chef and a baker. I had manyfriends in the food industry and
(23:15):
this all made it really easy forme to not deal with any meat.
But when my kid was born I wasravenous. I could not and I
struggled -- I was breastfeedingher all the time --I struggled
with getting full and justfeeling like like I was
constantly behind the eight ballfeeling really hungry. And my
neighbor -- you know speakingabout communities -- my neighbor
(23:38):
brought me food. And she didn'twe hadn't lived there very long.
She's just a lovely woman. Andshe had just bought a bunch of
things from Southern Season.
I miss that place.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:48):
Yep, same.
She brought me some some sliced,smoked ham and really beautiful
cheese and some breads and someother stuff. And I ate some of
it and I was so glad. I was likeso happy I did. But I struggled.
I'm not even joking. I struggledwith the guilt about this for
years, like I don't even know...
five years. And I would eat somemeat and I hate myself for it
(24:09):
because I was a vegetarian. Ireally had some strong beliefs
around what that meant. And nowat this point, I am basically
only eating pork, trying to getit as local as I possibly can.
Most of the time, that's totallynot perfect. I just just do the
best I can with this. Because Iknow being overly rigid when it
(24:31):
comes to food not only leaves meeffing hungry, but it also makes
me really bitchy.
Larissa Parson (24:37):
Yeah
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:37):
I'm really unpleasant to be around while
also leaving me overly focusedon food. So those are like three
really unhappy ways to be andthat's where a little of where
that past (change in self-care)has come from for me. It's that
(24:58):
process and that practice thatcontinues.
Larissa Parson (25:01):
Yes, yes, Elizabeth, I feel like I love, I
love hearing this story aboutyou, because I didn't know any
of this before we were workingon this episode. And I feel like
so many people's lives wouldimprove with less rigidity and
fear around food. And I thinkthat, you know, y'all! Go listen
(25:22):
to the Maintenance Phase episodeabout Michael Pollan. And start
unwinding that a little bit.
Yeah, I think that's a reallygood place to start with
unwinding some of that rigidity.
And, and, to go back to I alsohad this other thought, while
you were speaking, I was like,oh, to go back to some of the
stages of life and what selfcare looks like in different
(25:43):
stages of life. And to call backto Tamela Gordon's work, like
what what does free or very lowcost self care look like? I am
remembering. Like, I grew uptaking baths, I love taking
baths, that was great. But Iremember being in grad school
only having a shower. And usinga bowl to soak my feet, and to
(26:03):
take care of my feet. And thatwas a ritual that I engaged in
every week with, you know, like$1, a dollar bottle of nail
polish, probably Wet N Wild fromthe drugstore. But that was one
of my self care rituals was thisthing. It was, it cost almost
nothing to soak my feet in somewater with a little soap, and
(26:26):
clean them up and polish mynails. It took time. But I could
study while I was doing it orwhatever. Yeah. So anyway, just
throwing that out there as a ,asa like, these are the..and that
was a stage of my life, that wasa very important ritual for many
years.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:43):
Yeah, I think this is also one of these
ways that we can---whensomething doesn't work for us,
for whatever reason--I know somesurvivors who would absolutely
avoid it, like a hot bathcompletely, just not good for
them. They don't like it. Butstill, we all deserve to soak
our feet, and maybe just feel alittle bit more relaxed. And
(27:03):
whether we're soaking your feetand doing our little cute toes,
or we're just putting some Epsomsalts in there, or whatever it
is. But just to kind of soak andsink in the very nature of this
(self-care) process can bereally relaxing. And it's also
another piece, right? And we'llget into this titration idea,
but this is a piece that you cancontrol.
Larissa Parson (27:23):
Yes!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:23):
That you can take some, you know,
ownership around and see how itworks for you. Um, I would say I
think it's important to notethat for me, this is something
I've long advocated is that thehigher level of stress I'm
under, the greater quality andquantity of self care I need. So
(27:47):
I rest more when things arereally, really hard. I will eat
more prepared foods, I will cookless, bake less that kind of
thing. And there's an inverserelationship there. Like the
greater the stress, the more youneed to do this.
Larissa Parson (28:03):
Yes, I absolutely. I agree. And this is
why I was but and I feel likethere's a yes. And here there's
like multiple actual tendrils ofYes. And here, one of them is,
this is why I can't have jigsawpuzzles anymore, because I was
under under a tremendous amountof stress. And all I did was a
jigsaw puzzle last week. I couldnot work. And that was important
(28:26):
and necessary. And I need tofind another way! It's too
absorbing. So I need to findanother way to self care that
can be split up better. And andI also want to say that often
the higher level of stress andchallenge that you're under, and
the more self care you need, theharder sometimes it is to get it
(28:47):
unless you have community tosupport you.
Yep, yep, that's right.
I'm just throwing that outthere. Because I really think. I
really, really think, again, Iwant to call out the system on
this. Because part of thatstress is systemic. For so many
of us, anyway...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:09):
Yeah because it's exhausting.
Larissa Parson (29:11):
really exhausting. Completely
exhausting. Yeah, it's justexisting,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:16):
Just existing is completely
exhausting. And that will ebband flow, right? Your level of
exhaustion on a regular basis,too. So I want to add here that
I think that we -- and this issomething that sometimes I get
some pushback on and I am happyto have the pushback--but I do
believe that we need to aimhigher than simply taking a
(29:40):
shower or eating lunch as selfcare. And I get it, that
showering can feel like selfcare. When we are attached to a
newborn. I've been there. Itotally get that. And it is not
self care. These are reallybasic human needs that we need
to attend to. We need to beclean. We actually have a home
that we can live in. And we haverunning water and an indoor
(30:00):
bathroom. So we can do thesethings. But there are basic
human needs that we must meet inorder to function in healthy and
safe ways. We do need to aimhigher with some of this. So
lunch is not self care. It canlook like self care, right? It
can be, and so can the shower,right? And Larissa, you're
(30:22):
laughing here..do you want tosay what lunch as self care
might look like? Because I thinklunch just eating something is
not necessarily it.
Larissa Parson (30:31):
Yeah, I'm laughing because for much of the
pandemic lunch has been on myself care list of things,
because it's been reallychallenging. Potato chips for
lunch, y'all for three straightyears just ain't self care. That
is not self care. Something withprotein is self care. It's only
the self care that's stillmeeting my basic needs.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:50):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (30:52):
I want to say if you're at showering and eating
lunch, you're not alone. Itdoesn't have to like yes, that
can absolutely, if that, if youare not yet meeting your basic
needs, then that is where yourself care needs to lie. And
let's expand that concept ofeating lunch, to having a friend
(31:12):
bring over some lunch and spendsome time listening to me. or
figure out a way to make eatinglunch a ritual that is
pleasurable. And it doesn't takemuch. It just takes one breath
before you start eating.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:31):
I think the example of someone who's in
an office, or a teacher, youknow...so what does that (lunch)
look like? You know, lunch is...
Larissa Parson (31:39):
barely a minute...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:43):
And I would also say it's probably not
that way every single day.
Larissa Parson (31:48):
No.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:49):
There are pockets of space. And we're
getting a little ahead ofourselves with tools. But we
have to notice where the pocketsare and seize them. Just like
they are gold because they aregold before us. And if we don't
see that they are gold beforeus. We miss it.
Larissa Parson (32:03):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:04):
There are gold pockets. We just need to
take them into our hands.
Larissa Parson (32:08):
Right. So like, so like to go back to the lunch
example. And then we'll we'llstart making start moving
towards tools. I think in aminute. Yeah. But I think with
the lunch example, you know, cansomebody take for me... it's
always, can somebody take mykids so I can have some alone
time? Can I have lunch bymyself? Can I have lunch with a
friend? Can I drink, drink mydrink slowly at lunch? Like, it
(32:33):
doesn't have to be a whole lot.
And I really, for those of youwho are feeling disconnected and
alone and isolated, just becauseit's called self care doesn't
mean you have to do it alone. Itcan be like I'm gonna meet up
with my friend, or talk to myfriend on the phone while we
(32:54):
both soak our feet in a bowl ofwater.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:58):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (32:59):
And sometimes actually adding somebody in for
that-I'll call itaccountability-can, having a
buddy can make it easier to dosome self care.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:08):
Literally, I was just gonna say that! Get a
friend. Sometimes the friendmakes the self-care decision
easier to do. Because it couldbe accountability or maybe just
their presence. It's theirencouragement that they think
it's a valid thing. And...goingback to lunch, then maybe you
just walk outside after you haveeaten your snack or your
(33:32):
sandwich. But whatever yourlunch is, maybe you just take a
little bit of a walk around.
Even if it is a walk outsideyour classroom, maybe you can't
leave the building for whateverreason, got it. But even if it's
just a walk outside yourcubicle, or a walk around your
office, or a walk somewhere inthe neighborhood or something
like that, just to kind of giveyourself a little bit of a break
there. That counts.
Larissa Parson (33:53):
Yep, you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:56):
But if you're someone who's loves a
shower, let's make it more selfcare-y. And just here's some
things that you can do to makethat like more self care like.
First, I would say just takesome time in there. You can,
instead of the usual in and out,luxuriate in the heat, breathe
(34:17):
deeply in the steam, drop alittle bit of an essential oil
in there and breathe that in. Orget a shampoo brush --my
daughter didn't like her hairwashed we had a little shampoo
brush--and scrub away. Justnotice how that feels when
you've got a brush on your scalpand what that texture is like.
(34:39):
Does that feel good? Try it fora second. If it doesn't feel
good, obviously stop. Butmassaging the scalp is also
good. That just feels reallygood. Or you can do things like
oil up. Put a little oil onthere (your scalp) or get a salt
scrub or some kind of likescrubby soap. My sister gave me
this choco Body Scrub which hassome dead sea salt in it and it
(35:02):
smells like chocolate. But alsograiny and coarse. And I was
putting on my elbows and myheels in the shower and that
felt really good. So that feelsnice or maybe get a loofah that
you especially like, or likesome sort of like pretty little
bath sponge. Or -- and this isthe point where I'm just gonna
say just like, close your earsfor a second if you're not up
for any kind of like sexualcontent and give us like 10
(35:27):
seconds and then you can openyour ears back up again -- go
ahead and masturbate in theshower. Just try it. Maybe
nothing happens. Maybe itdoesn't work for you. Maybe this
is new, shame-y or weird. Andthat's okay, I totally get it.
But trying something that's newis also self care.
Larissa Parson (35:47):
Trying something that new is that's new is also
self care. I love that. And Ilove a good shower orgasm. Glad
my parents don't listen.
(laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:58):
Sexual content over now.
Uncoverthose ears for those who didn't
Larissa Parson (36:00):
Yes! want to hear that or that
doesn't feel good to them today.
Okay, so let's do you want tosay something else? Or should we
bring home to tools? Let's fleshthis out a little bit more.
Because I do like to think ideas(of what self-care can look
like) are really important.
Sure. Sure.
Okay, so one of the tools,tools, one of the ways I engage
in self care that I also talk tomy clients about a lot,
(36:23):
especially folks who are tryingto have a better relationship
with their bodies, but aren'tsure how to start, one of my
favorites... like, to like, ifyou want to have the super
shower, you got the shower thatElizabeth just told you about.
And then when you get out of theshower, taking an extra oh, 20
seconds to intentionally whenyou're lotioning up or oiling up
(36:45):
your body after the shower, doit with love. With the, like, "I
am loving on my body, when I putthis lotion on," with that kind
of intention behind it. And I dothat every day. When I get out
of the shower, I love lotionsand oils and things. So that is
one of my favorite self carethings. And it doesn't matter
(37:06):
what kind of lotion you'reusing. It can be anything.
Whatever you're using, justemulsify it in your hands a
little bit and think aboutloving on your body. You don't
have to even say I love my bodyso much, it could just be like I
am caring for my body with love.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (37:23):
And if that idea feels weird or sort of
uncomfortable for you, becauseyou are a trauma survivor, I
think a really good examplethat's worked for a number of
survivors that I've known, isputting some lotion on your
elbow. It's not a hand, it's nota foot, or on the back and neck
or belly or anything like that.
The elbow is a place thatdoesn't get a lot of love,
(37:48):
right? It's an elbow. And youcan try that and just try it.
What's the motion there? See howthat feels. You're like, "Oh,
that felt okay, that was great,"then maybe you want to do
something you want to do like anupper arm, the next time you try
this? Or maybe you just stickwith the elbow. But just to do
little bits at a time.
Larissa Parson (38:05):
Titrate it? Yes.
Thank you, Elizabeth. Thank youfor bringing that in. Yeah.
Let's see other self carepractices that I engage in.
Listening to my body andnoticing what it really wants.
So right now, it's mostly aboutsleep. Sometimes it looks like
going to bed earlier. Choosinglighter reading material.
(38:26):
Movement is pretty much alwayspart of the picture for my body,
my body wants to move even whenI don't feel like it. Just
sometimes it's stretching, juststretching on the couch. It
doesn't have to be getting upand going for a walk, though for
me that is really essential.
Sometimes it's recognizing aboutwhat no longer serves me. So
(38:48):
like, again, this is a noticingthing is this thing I'm doing
really working for me anymore?
Maybe I don't teach a certainthing or I don't pick up a hobby
that's not really interesting.
When I finally gave up on theidea that I wanted to sew my own
clothes, it was so freakingliberating. That's also, like,
noticing that I was devotingmental energy to this idea that
(39:09):
I needed to do this thing theydidn't actually want to do. When
it's optional, right? And often,I find that again, to go back to
the idea of like eating lunchwith a friend asking myself what
would make whatever hard thingis happening a little bit
(39:29):
easier. What would make thatthing easier? Would it be easier
if I sent a text to my friendElizabeth and said, Elizabeth, I
am going to do this thing. Canyou check in with me about it
later? And of course, always,always, always time with my
right people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (39:49):
Yeah, this is such a great list. So I
mentioned the food stuffalready. But also for me that's
been really important is massageas non sexual touch, which can
be really healing to sexualabuse survivors. And that's
actually something we'll make anote of in the show notes, but
(40:09):
there's a great new book calledBlack Joy. And the author
mentioned this a little bit andI think this is super
interesting. But it (massage) issomething that I only
prioritized -but also felt likeI had the financial ability to
do - in the past five or sixyears. Deep care work is really
(40:31):
important for people who do workwith vulnerable populations,
people in crisis dealing with alot of trauma--as I have--and
I'm often on, on in multiplecapacities and massage allows me
to be in a safe space relaxedand have focused on me and off.
Also rest. And that's somethingthat I've kind of gone back and
forth with but it could be likejust closing my eyes for 10
(40:53):
minutes, or it could be layingdown for 30 minutes, even if I'm
not actually sleeping.
Larissa Parson (40:57):
Yeah,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:58):
I do a walk every morning. With no
phone. Some distance like aroundme, I can just wander my mind
can wander I can just like dowhatever. I'm also a big -- I
don't watch anything really--except I love Saturday Night
Live reruns. And so like I willwatch those because they are
just always hysterical. Andthere are certain ones that I go
(41:20):
to like NATO Cafeteria, andthey're just like, really,
really funny. My friend Darrellalso sends me memes on
Instagram. And of course, likeone (piece of self-care) that's
like huge for me is reading.
Every day there is some reading,multiple reading in different
ways. And if you don't getRobert Jones Jr --he's the
author of The Prophets--hisnewsletter, he just started
doing it. He said this, which isso great, "One of the ways in
(41:41):
which I restore myself when I'mfeeling depleted, is through the
act of reading. " Me too Mr.
Jones. "Reading is not merely apractice in which I am
temporarily escaping the world'sharmed, it's also a space where
my creativity is inspired. Mystrategies for resistance are
shaped, and my compassion ismagnified." With that, may we
Larissa Parson (42:07):
Yes, yes. Love reading, love memes. I will take
all your memes. I love them somuch. I want to go back really
briefly to when you mentionedmassage and having resources for
massage Elizabeth, I know thatmassage is one of those things
that I also love that has fallenoff of my list lately, partly
(42:28):
mostly due to time and needs toget back on it. But I do want to
say that many areas haveaccessible massage practices. So
if you look for things likecommunity massage, that's
probably a good Google term tosearch for or community massage
clinic. I know Durham Bodyworkis one of them, places where
(42:50):
locally, you can get massagethat is not... like, that has
sliding scales. And, like, a lotof practitioners in this area
are really looking to make itaccessible to more people. And
there's so many ways thatpractitioners do this kind of
thing. And in many other places,too, you know, like many other
(43:12):
different modalities I was gonnasay. So just throwing that out
there that massage doesn't haveto be something that you have to
have a certain amount of moneyto get. It makes it easier, but
you can certainly accessmassage. Okay. Um, other
all read more.
examples of self care that camethrough, we put out a call in
(43:34):
our Instagram Stories for someother examples of self care. So
here's some of the answers wegot-- being outdoors,
journaling, solo travel, talkingto kindred spirits. Stretching,
eating food, I made cozy PJs, agood book, again, we love to
read. I love to read. Bonebroth. And I asked my Slow
(43:55):
Burners also. So what do y'alldo for self care? What do we
need? What else do we throw onthis list? And, you know, there
were some really great answers.
One that I really loved isbuilding rituals around taking
medications and supplements, andbuilding rituals around care in
general so that it's part ofyour day. It's, it's ritualized.
(44:18):
It's like brushing your teeth,it's not something you have to
make extra time for, becauseit's just part of the day. And
had making standing dates withfriends was another one and a
big picture (form of) self care,recognizing your capacity for
work, for care, for whatever,for care for others, I mean,
(44:40):
whatever, and setting boundariesaround that capacity. And that
again, goes back to the notoverextending part of what
Audrey Lord says. So...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:52):
Let's wrap up with some tools. Right. We've
touched on all of this, but Ifeel like let's name them as
tools now. What do we need tomake this happen more for us.
Larissa Parson (45:02):
Time. Community.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:05):
Yep.
Larissa Parson (45:05):
Curiosity, willing, being willing to try
new things, because you mightfind something that really
works. Yep. What else?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:12):
Titration.
So we talked about that. Justtrying something, just trying
the lotion on the elbow just fora little bit, trying it for a
couple of minutes, see how thatworks. And then build up to the
rest of the arm or your hand orwhatever, if that works for you.
Nap / rest is that way for me,you know, an hour is not really
right. For me, I really need ashorter amount of time. If I'm
going to lay down probably like30 minutes, or just noticing
(45:35):
that bit and building up to itand seeing what works.
Larissa Parson (45:43):
Yeah. Noticing, like, you know, like noticing is
part of titration. Right. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:53):
Anything else? Also right people? Yes.
Right people and rightrelationships? Right?
Larissa Parson (46:00):
I think yeah.
Oh, can we put pleasure in andplay on that, too?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:04):
Oh, yeah.
Okay, pleasure and plays astools?
Larissa Parson (46:07):
Yeah.
Because play is part of thecuriosity bit and pleasure is
like, not all self care is goingto feel pleasurable. Really,
like, sometimes you're justtaking your supplements and you
don't feel anything, but youfeel less bad. But sometimes
self care can be deeplypleasurable.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:26):
Yep, yep.
Yep.
Larissa Parson (46:29):
So as we're wrapping up, we're not going to
get into this. We're not gonnatalk about this. Here's a
question for you. Yeah. Do wethink that creating the
conditions that we all need foraccessible self care... Like, I
think that that involvesreimagining entirely the way our
society functions and if I coulddream a world where we all have
(46:51):
access to everything andanything that we didn't
everything we mentioned itanything we didn't mention, that
is the world I want to live in.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:59):
Yeah--and we don't have time to get into
this--but it's also making methink of a book that I just
picked up and it's aboutloneliness. The author is
Norena... something. I literallyjust got it and flipped open.
It's one of these books wherethey talk a lot about the
problem and then have like, youknow, 1000 words related to
(47:19):
possible changes. But one ofthem was like, we really need to
look at what neoliberalcapitalism is doing to us and
the communities that we live in.
And so I think there isabsolutely this reimagining that
needs to go on, reimagining andthen yes, rebuilding.
Larissa Parson (47:35):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (47:37):
Can we close with what we're eating
though? Let's go there. Do youwant to dive in there?
Larissa Parson (47:42):
Yes, sure. I'm, I have two things. One is the
strawberries that I have beengetting from the CSA have been
mind blowingly. Yes. Delicious.
Like, like mouth gasm. Mmm. Justso good. Maybe that's where I
should stop. But I also mademyself breakfast this morning. I
(48:05):
took like, two extra, 10 extraminutes to make breakfast. And I
had like, a sandwich. But it wasa fried egg and bacon and
cheese. And it was delicious.
And you know, that is when youjust have something that just
hits you just right. So yes,that is what I'm eating. And I'm
so freaking happy with it today.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (48:26):
Nice. My kiddo did a lemonade stand last
weekend. And we were making somesimple syrup. And I was like,
Oh, I've been getting somelavender simple syrup at Cloche
(coffee in Durham) when I'vewalked there, in my cold brew or
whatever, my latte. And it'sreally an interesting taste with
the coffee and the cream. And soI thought maybe I can just put
(48:48):
some lavender essential oil inmy simple syrup and see how that
works out. I'm playing with thata little bit. It's delicious.
And it's simple syrup. It isreally easy to do..like
shockingly easy. I was like "howdo I make simple syrup?" but I
(49:09):
have made it and it's become sothick and viscous that is just
like a syrup as opposed to kindof something you can pour and
blend more easily. So anyway,lavender simple syrup and really
like it. I'm putting a couple ofdrops of lavender essential oil
in it, and it's delicious. Soit's kind of fun.
Larissa Parson (49:27):
That sounds fabulous. So in the spirit of
neoliberal capitalism, what arethe ways yes, that we can engage
in self care? We're not reallywell, yes, no, we're stuck in a
capitalist system, y'all. Sosometimes we need to sell our
work. So one of the ways we canengage in self care is seeking
(49:48):
help when we're in need of help.
And I've opened up a few one toone coaching spots this spring
and summer. And together we canget clear on your "how" and you
get to come hang out with us inthe Slow Burn. So if you're
interested, you can message me.
No pressure, but there it is.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:06):
Nice self care and community already
established. Just join in withsomeone you know. Thanks,
Larissa.
Larissa Parson (50:14):
So if you'd like to support our work here on the
podcast, you can head on over topatreon.com/wondermine where
you'll have access to our bonusepisodes and whatever other
awesomeness Elizabeth and Icook, cook, cook up on our walks
or sitting by a pool orwhatever.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (50:40):
We're so grateful every time you share
Wondermine with friends. Givingus five stars or writing us a
review will help others findtheir "wow" and "how" of living
a life rooted in curiosity,community and liberation.
Larissa Parson (50:53):
And in the interim, you can follow us on
Instagram @Wonderminepodcast.
Thanks again. We are sodelighted that you've been
listening
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