August 2, 2022 • 33 mins
Elizabeth and Larissa sum up this season's themes and leave us with some ideas about how to keep going, even when things seem hopeless.
Show notes (book links are affiliate links to Bookshop):
The Lost Apothecary by Sarah Penner
Miss Peregrine’s Home for Peculiar Children by Ransom Riggs
Hollow City by Ransom Riggs (Peregrine, book 2)
Library of Souls by Ransom Riggs (book 3)
A Map of Days by Ransom Riggs (book 4)
The Conference of the Birds by Ransom Riggs (book 5)
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:02):
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson.
I'm a joy coach, a movementteacher, a writer and podcaster,
a mom to twins and wow, I am sotired of this BS.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:15):
And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a
parent, a partner or rapesurvivor and writer. I talk and
write about relationships,trauma and decision making. And
I'm very ready for a break.
Aren't we all? Yes.
Larissa Parson (00:30):
If you're new here, hello. We're the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the Wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:48):
If you would like to support the show,
thank you, you can do that byvisiting patreon.com forward
slash wonder mind. And if youdon't want to, that's okay, too.
We're just glad you're here.
Larissa Parson (01:01):
So this is the final episode of season two,
where we've been talking aboutwhat we don't talk about and
why.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:09):
Wow. But before we get started, as
always, let's talk about whatwe're reading. Larissa want to
start us off?
Larissa Parson (01:17):
Sure. So I am for once not reading smut.
*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:24):
Wow!
Larissa Parson (01:24):
*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:24):
OK
Larissa Parson (01:25):
I'm reading a novel called The Lost Apothecary
by Sarah Penner. It's prettytimely. It's a novel that
switches back and forth betweenthe past and a present day
setting. And the pastprotagonists are involved in
apothecary work. Butspecifically this apothecary
deals in poisons, mostly for menwho are not good men.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:49):
Great.
Larissa Parson (01:51):
And also, sometimes it's about using
abortifacients. And sometimesit's about herbs that you can
take to have fewer cramps andthings like that. So I'm like,
'Oh, this is right, on topic'.
And then the present dayprotagonist is a woman who has
come to realize after 10 yearsthat she completely lost her
sense of self in her marriageand she's rediscovering herself
while she's exploring London andspecifically runs into an
(02:14):
artifact from this apothecaryshop and is like trying to
connect all of the dots andfigure out this hidden history
of the apothecary. So reallyfun.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:25):
Ooh, yes, it is. I'm going to add that to
my list because that soundswonderful. I actually really
liked that present past flipback and forth. That's a fave
for me. So definitely a fan.
Larissa Parson (02:40):
It's fun. It's not super heavy. It's just a
light, easy read and I'm reallyenjoying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:47):
Nice. I didn't know until you said this
that you are reading a book thatis in London. Iactually just
rediscovered the Miss Peregrineseries:Miss Peregrine school for
(03:13):
Peculiar Children. So PeculiarChildren-- as opposed to
normals--Peculiar Children arekids or adults who have some
sort of fantastical,supernatural skill. And I found
this series ages ago, probablywhen it first came out, and then
I lost track of it during COVIDand rediscovered it. I just
(03:36):
finished the fifth bookyesterday, Conference of The
Birds. But Conference of theBirds is actually kind of some
(03:58):
of the time spent in London,some of the time setting the
United States. A delightfulfantasy series, I'm a big fan.
Larissa Parson (04:07):
I have not read those. So now I am adding them
to my list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:11):
Whaaat?
Larissa Parson (04:11):
I know...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:12):
Oh, okay.
Larissa Parson (04:13):
I know. I'll put them on my list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:16):
So very timely, what you're reading and
what, what not necessarily whatI'm reading. But way back in
March. We introduced this seasonseason two, with our theme: what
we don't talk about and why. Wecame up with this topic after we
both read an excerpt of a bookon marriage that was published
in the New York Times wherethere was lots of discussion
(04:38):
about it afterwards. And ifyou're just joining us today for
the very first time--"hello andwelcome," --and it might make
sense for you to kind of journeyback to that episode where we
set this up a little bit better.
So lots of different responseresponses to that piece but
really what interested Larissaand I was something that wasn't
(05:01):
really talked about. And it'sabout the work that goes into
love, and relationships. And sothat got us thinking about all
kinds of topics where things areoff limits. Where they're not
socially acceptable. Or stuffthat we used to talk about and
don't any longer things. Orsubjects that we discussed,
maybe with only our closefriends or people who like
(05:23):
family that we feel really,really safe with, etc. So we
started with two topics thatused to feel very off limits and
are now mainstream in a way thatmost of us probably could not
have predicted, topics that feelvery relevant, especially in
this moment (05:39):
abortion and politics. And we ended our
season's topics last week withambition. So there's a lot we
could have covered. And some ofit is discussed in the patron
bonus episodes, so go there andlisten more if you'd like. But
there's some things like themothering, the work that goes
(06:01):
into mothering and parenting,that we left on the table, maybe
as a little snack for a futuretime. So we didn't cover
everything that we came up with,but we covered a lot.
Larissa Parson (06:12):
Yeah, and there's just so much that we
don't talk about, culturally,you know?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:19):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (06:21):
And some of our other topics included
perimenopause and desire andself care. And we both feel that
those things are sometimes hardto get personal and honest
about. But it's also really,really important to talk about
them. And to talk about thestructural pieces that disrupt
(06:41):
our ability and desire to talkabout hard things. That was a
complicated sentence. So tobreak it down a little bit, we
we looked at the micro scale ofthings. What did these topics
look like for us, and maybe forlisteners, like you. And the
macro scale of things. Whatinfluences us? What gets in our
(07:01):
way with these topics? When itcomes to the systems that we
live, work and play under, whatgets in the way? Despite our
best efforts, these systems haveinfluenced the decisions that we
make.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:24):
This is what happens when you co-create
something and you're using ashared Google Doc and...
(laughter from Larissa) and sohere we are, and it's so
beautifully imperfect. And herewe are today, right? So some of
us some might say thatwomen--and really what it comes
down to it, that's the majorityof our listeners --we can see
(07:44):
from multiple factors that weare are actually in a worse
place today than they were whenwe started the season way back
in March.
Larissa Parson (07:55):
In a short four months.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:57):
In four months look what's happened. And
you know, on my bad days, Iwould absolutely agree we are in
a worse place. And yet, despitefatigue and anger and fear, and
all of these big dark emotions,I just can't fold myself into
(08:20):
like a fetal position and liveon my bed, curled up all the
time, even though that's reallytempting. Especially these days.
So where does that leave us?
Where do we go kind of fromhere? What do we do when things
do you feel really bad? And Ithink it's totally fine to take
to our bed and be sad. And whatelse can we do?
Larissa Parson (08:44):
Right? Yeah, first we feel our feelings,
whatever they are.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:47):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (08:48):
Anger, fear, despair, totally fine to feel
those feelings. And then weremember that there are also
other feelings available to usand other experiences available
to our bodies. So number one,pleasure matters. Pleasure
matters. Joy matters. Delightmatters. Because without them,
(09:09):
we don't have hope. In everypost apocalyptic movie, there
are always little moments ofdelight. And those moments help
us hold on to the idea thathumanity, that the experience of
being human is worth it that'sworth continuing. All my Star
Wars fans know what I'm talkingabout. *chuckle*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:31):
Yeah, we do.
Larissa Parson (09:32):
*laughs* There's that little glimmer, that little
spark of hope. And pleasure isreally essential to that
experience of being human. Justas much as grief and sorrow and
pain and anger and all the otherfeelings. Elizabeth, I love your
smile.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:50):
*laughs*
Larissa Parson (09:51):
I love your smile so much *both laugh*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:54):
Oh gosh, I'm here wondering if Larissa is
thinking -- y'all this is soimportant, I hope everyone's
taking notes -and it's justreally like delightful to hear
about Star Wars and have thatcome up. That's very special to
me and I'm also like (lowersvoice) 'is Larissa talking
about early Star Wars, the onesthat I liked because I only like
the three original ones?' AndI'm thinking about Han Solo and
(10:14):
in the end that you know, thatcan be kryptonite
(laughter)...wait, what's thething he's in?
Larissa Parson (10:20):
Oh my god! I'm 45, Elizabeth. You just asked me
to recall an actual noun.
*laughs*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:26):
He is trapped in...
Larissa Parson (10:27):
He is trapped in the freezy thing...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:30):
Yes!! And I'm like 'that's the hope I'm
talking about God dammit.'
Larissa Parson (10:37):
There's a line from one of the recent movies
that was percolating through mymind. But it's also in that
first movie in the firsttrilogy. Not the line but like,
just thinking about Leia goingto Obi Wan and saying "you're my
only hope".
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:50):
Yes. You are my only hope.
Larissa Parson (10:51):
She knows that there's somebody else out there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:53):
Yep.
Larissa Parson (10:54):
And that there's a reason to persist.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:57):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (10:58):
And there are all these moments of ---just to
stay on Star Wars for one moresecond here--
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:03):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (11:04):
There are all these moments of delight and
pleasure and joy, woven throughthose movies, even though it's
on a like a galactic Civil Warscale. Yeah, there's still all
of these fun things.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:14):
Yeah. And things are really bad.
Larissa Parson (11:16):
Things are very, very bad.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:18):
Things are really bad. I mean, we don't
need to get too like deep intothis. But I sometimes think that
we think you say, or I sometimesI'll say just speak for myself,
I say 'this is a great series'.
And there's like good versusevil. And things are actually
really, really bad for a lot ofthis series. Things are pretty
dire. And when you say "civilwar" like yes, this is totally
(11:38):
what's going on in Star Wards.
So, so yeah, yes to all of that.
And I don't mean to distract us.
But I do want to come back tothat main point that you're
saying that, you know, feel ourfeelings and like, pleasure
matters. Yes, delight isimportant. Joy matters. Because
(11:59):
without them, we don't havehope.
Larissa Parson (12:03):
And we need hope to make change.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:05):
And we need hope to make change.
Larissa Parson (12:10):
Because if we don't, why are we bothering
trying if there's no hope?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Larissa Parson (12:17):
So yes, things are bad now.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:20):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (12:21):
And something else we can do, in addition to
like, oh, pleasure. Yeah, let meenjoy my coffee. Let me read
memes while the world burns -that's one of the memes going
around right now. But somethingelse we can do is figure out
what we do have agency over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:37):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (12:38):
What can we do?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:41):
You sort of neatly set this up for me
because one of the things thatwe can do, something that we do
have agency over, is connectingwith our right people connecting
with right relationships. Thisis not gonna come to anyone as
(13:01):
some huge epiphany here, becausewe bring it up in pretty much
every single episode. Becauseit's always a tool that we can
access at any point, if we wantto. And yes, there are steps
that we need to do to figure outwho those people are. But it is
also a piece that we can workwith. So those right people,
they validate, right? Like, asLarissa lovingly said above,
(13:21):
'things are bad. Yes, Elizabeth,things are bad.' And in doing so
our right people help us feelless alone.
They help us feel less "crazy"and more "normal". Okay. {And
I'm saying "normal" but it's aninvented category, right? Like
(13:42):
no one is "normal". Normal is aninvented category, kind of like
time is an invented thing. Andclosure is an invented thing.
I'm also using "crazy" inquotes, because that can be a
term that people can throw atfolks who have persistent mental
health issues in a derogatorysense. But I'm using it here
(14:02):
because sometimes we talk aboutourselves as crazy, right? Like,
"I'm the crazy one. I am the onewho is screwed up". } So our
right people also do somethinglike they remind us that we're
not the problem. And this is abig one.
Larissa Parson (14:18):
Yeah
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:19):
Right?
Because sometimes we're inclinedto think we are the problem. The
problem is us. And the thingthat is wrong is the way that
we're doing something or that weare the we are the dysfunctional
one who can't make it happen.
But the problem is the systemsthat we live under, they are not
set up to support us at all.
They are designed to work forand maintain power and comfort
(14:41):
for are white men in the world.
Larissa Parson (14:46):
Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:47):
So our right people do all these super
important things for us. LikeLarissa is doing right now.
They're validating, they'rereminding they're normalizing,
they're supporting.
Larissa Parson (14:56):
Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I have to say that I've
had a lot on my mind over thelast few months, as Elizabeth
knows, beyond the problems ofthis country, on a deeply
personal level. And I havereally been leaning into my
right people. And they've beenright there, to do exactly that.
(15:22):
And, and I will say, tocommiserate at the same time on
the state of the world, but toalso say, and your problem is
real - to validate, remind,normalize and offer support.
And, I think that that's reallyimportant. Because just because
the world is - I have so manywords that I don't want to say
it on a podcast - crapalicious,let's say, right now, it doesn't
(15:47):
mean that your individualproblems go away. And it's
really important that torecognize that we all need our
individual, right people and oursupport systems in order to
strive for collective change aswell.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And sometimesI get into a right people
tangent, so I didn't want to goback to which is, you know, --
Larissa Parson (16:13):
It's worth it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:14):
It is worth it! But what Larissa was
saying before is figuring outwhat we have agency over, right?
Because there are things that wedon't have agency over. So this
idea of like, what can Icontrol? What's under my scope
here?
Larissa Parson (16:34):
Yeah, and part of that is talking about the
stuff in general. So like, ifwe'd never talked about
abortion, then we wouldn't knowthings like how important bodily
autonomy is. We might know fromother contexts, but bringing
that into part of theconversation around abortion is
(16:55):
really important. So, when wetake a second to think about,
okay, well, if body bodilyautonomy is something that's
important to me, then we canstart thinking about what we can
as part of what we have agencyover. And then that can help us
understand what our scope ofactivism would be in the context
(17:17):
of the life that you're actuallyliving. And that's one of the
things you're right people canreally help you with, is they
can say, hey, so I know you'regoing through a really rough
time with your kids. Maybe now'snot the time to volunteer to
walk people into the clinic.
Maybe now's the time to work onhelping them figure out their
sense of bodily autonomy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (17:36):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (17:37):
So, it's okay if we're making small things
happen. It's okay if we'remaking ripples in what feels
like a tiny pond.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (17:49):
And I think sometimes, it's doesn't
feel like it's okay. Because itfeels like we shouldn't be
making these massive bigchanges, right? Like, we should
be out there really impactingthe world in super big ways. And
that is just --and some of uscan do that and I think that's
wonderful--and some of us can't,and that's okay, too. So if the
(18:12):
"only" thing that you're doingto combat racism, sexism,
misogyny in the world, istalking to your kids about it,
about what we they are seeingand hearing and helping them be
better kids than lots of USadults, that is still really
good, important work that you'redoing in the world.
Larissa Parson (18:33):
Yeah. I think I might even argue that it's some
of the most important activismthat we can engage in, if that's
what's available to us. It'sperforming love as an action.
And it just occurred to methough, I'm sure someone else
has said this before somewhereelse. But, part of the reason
(18:57):
that many of us whose primarywork is caregiving, might
devalue the impact of raisingjustice-minded kids is exactly
because the systems we live indevalue caregiving work in
general. So, if you're not outthere making big structural
(19:19):
change, what are you even doing?
And I really think that attitudecomes from the devaluing of
doing care work, period. And Iwant to throw that out there for
us to think about, that thiscaregiving work is essential
labor, and raising children tobe kinder and more equitable
than the world they're growingup in is changemaking work on a
huge scale that feels small.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:44):
It feels small, but it's huge. And this
is such a beautiful andimportant point. Larissa
caregiving work is essentiallabor. And just a side note,
we're talking about AngelaGarbes, new book about very same
issue Essential Labor (19:58):
Mothering as Social Change in August's
Wondermine book group. So headto the Patreon for more
information. But raising kids tobe kinder and more equity
focused than our current worldis absolutely change making
(20:20):
activist work. Don't let anyonelet them tell you differently.
Larissa Parson (20:27):
Yeah. Period.
The end.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:30):
Yeah. And the end. Um, can I jump in here
briefly about resilience?
Larissa Parson (20:36):
Yes, of course you can.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:39):
So I want to add a little bit here around
resilience, and how resilienceis really important to unlocking
our own sense of activism.
Resilience is not just aboutmanaging hard things. Okay.
Resilience is also aboutmanaging the uncertain. So
coming to terms with the stuffthat we don't know, we can't
ever know. So figuring out whatour, (cough) our own sense of
(20:59):
activism can and will look likehelps fuel ourselves and build
resilience in us. Right? Again,personal agency, right?
Larissa Parson (21:11):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:11):
What do I have control over? So unlocking
that sense of activism can helpus move from bed in fetal
position to using those badfeelings that we have-- not, not
*wrong*, bad, but things thatfeel like they're
uncomfortable..
Larissa Parson (21:27):
unpleasant.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:28):
Yes, thank you-- to help us change the
state of the world, or at leastthe state of our world, also
important.
Larissa Parson (21:36):
Yeah, and for us to decide what we actually have
control over, and to work withinthe boundary of what we have
control over can be reallydeeply liberating. Because it
frees us from the idea that weneed to do more than we are
capable of doing. That boundarymight include within it things
(21:59):
like voting and writing torepresentatives. But it also,
more importantly, to me, I mean,yes, vote, please vote. It also
includes things like how we showup in our communities, in our
homes, in our bodies every day.
How do I show up in my bodyevery day and where does that
(22:23):
give me agency to do things inthe world? What if I changed my
attitude toward my body? Andthat means that my kid has a
sense of greater agency overtheir body. And less pressure
from outside things like dietculture. Elizabeth's making a
face at me, because I'm gettingoff topic.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (22:42):
I'm making a face at you, because I'm so
excited that we've wrapped indiet culture somewhere!
(laughter) Because that's true,right? I think that's one of the
things that when I hear likeChristy Harrison--I read her
newsletter-- and she's talkingabout things like diagnoses,
(23:03):
that don't actually meananything like leaky gut-- one of
the things that she comes backto, even in her book, is think
about all of the time that isspent managing diet culture in
your life.
Larissa Parson (23:18):
Uh huh.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:19):
Wow, wouldn't it be amazing if we
could spend that time doingsomething that builds
resilience, that gives us ourown sense of autonomy. We don't
have to go out and like change aworld again, like we can just do
things within our own self inour own world. If we could put
down some of these other pieces.
So I just love this.
Larissa Parson (23:40):
Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm glad I took that
little excursion. I want to pickup on what you just said. We'll
get back on topic on our on ourlittle train here in just a sec.
Making changes and freeingourselves from things like diet
culture, in our own world, wedon't realize how much influence
(24:03):
we have on other people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:06):
Say that again!
Larissa Parson (24:07):
We don't realize how much influence we have on
other people, unless they tellus. And they almost never tell
us. It very rarely shows up. Butwhen it does show up, you
suddenly realize, 'Wow, thereare all these people who don't
even know me that I aminfluencing'. And it's not like
(24:30):
either one of us is sitting herewith a million Instagram
followers. So it's not abouthaving broad influence. It's
about having deep meaningfulrelationships that spread a
little bit of joy and self loveand radical everything into the
world. Radical acceptance maybe.
So, to get us back on topichere, though. There is so much
(24:54):
that we are responsible for inour day to day lives - so much.
And there is so very little thatwe can really control. So when
we talk about agency andautonomy, we're talking about
what is actually my work here.
(25:17):
Not picking up everything andfeeling responsible for
everything.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:24):
And that's really hard. Because it's really
hard to not want to pick upeverything because there's a lot
of asks that are made of us on aregular basis. And it's hard to
figure out which work is ours tosay "yes" to?
Larissa Parson (25:42):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:44):
That's a tricky thing. And also, there's
socialization around likecaregiving and giving more to
people and taking care ofothers. And, you know, doing
this kind of like a deepemotional labor, you know, so
this is a tricky thing. But Iwant to just repeat something
that you just said, because Ireally think this is an
important nugget. There's somuch that we're responsible for,
(26:07):
and yet, so little we cancontrol.
Larissa Parson (26:13):
Yeah. Anybody who has had long term
relationships with youngchildren that are more intimate
than seeing them once a weekknows that there's very little
you can control.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (26:27):
Or long term relationships with adults - very
little you can control.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:32):
Very little you can control, yeah.
Larissa Parson (26:33):
But you feel responsible for a lot.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:36):
Yes.
Um, is Han trapped in carbon?
Larissa Parson (26:45):
Carbonite!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:46):
Carbonite!
Larissa Parson (26:47):
Yes!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:48):
It's called Carbonite?
Larissa Parson (26:49):
It's carbonite.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:51):
Is that a real thing?
Larissa Parson (26:53):
Is it really Carbonite?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:55):
What's carbon, then?
Larissa Parson (26:56):
*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:56):
Wait, carbon's a gas... (edited to
say, clearly Elizabeth is NOT achemistry person. Carbon is a
solid.)
Larissa Parson (26:58):
We know what carbon is *laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:01):
Right. I'm out. I am not a chemistry
person.
Larissa Parson (27:03):
Yes, it's Carbonite.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:05):
Okay.
Larissa Parson (27:05):
It's Carbonite.
It's totally carbonite. Wow. Whohas the entireoriginal trilogy
memorized? I do. Can I recallthat one word? No.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:15):
No.
Larissa Parson (27:15):
No
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:16):
I got carbon. I got part of it. I got
a couple of syllables.
Larissa Parson (27:20):
Once you said carbon, I knew it was Carbonite.
*laughing*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:23):
There is yet one more reminder of why you
need to your right people... youcome up with a couple of
syllables, they complete theword. (laughter) What?! What is
this?
Larissa Parson (27:35):
I love ending on this. (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:37):
So do I.
And the only thing better thanending on this is thanking
everyone who has been involvedin this podcast. And really what
that means is anyone who hasliterally ever listened to an
episode, liked a post, sharedsomething, wrote us a review,
ignored the barking dog in thebackground, all of those things.
We are so so grateful for all ofyou, beautiful people. One of
(28:02):
those beautiful people --she'sthe best wrote!-- wrote in after
episode four "Female Troubles".
A big keeper in my mind. And shesaid ""ust wanted to let you
know how much I loved episode 4-- congratulations, and THANK
YOU for talking about thesethings! Nothing else like it. I
(28:23):
can't imagine betterstewards/shepherds of these
conversations than you two.
Love listening and grateful forthe work you do."
Larissa Parson (28:33):
That is just so lovely. This is exactly what I
was talking about. We don't knowuntil somebody tells you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:41):
We don't know, right.
Larissa Parson (28:42):
I love that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:43):
And we don't recognize how much
influence we have on otherpeople unless they tell us and
they usually don't. Okay, can weclose with what we're eating? Do
you want to go first?
Larissa Parson (28:55):
Sure. So today I'm picking up my CSA.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:00):
Oh, yeah.
Larissa Parson (29:01):
In like 20 minutes as soon as we're done,
and I got the spinach dip fromStrong Arm, which I love. Oh,
good. It's like spinach andthere's some water chestnuts in
there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:12):
I was gonna say it's water chestnuts.
I've had this.
Larissa Parson (29:14):
It's crunchy so you get the crunchy and it's
cheesy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:18):
Yep.
Larissa Parson (29:18):
So I'm like, Oh, I feel virtuous for eating green
things not virtuous. Likethere's no bad foods, y'all. But
I feel like Oh, I'm supposed toeat more green things and I want
to eat more green things andoften don't so yay me, meeting
my goals.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:30):
Yay you.
Larissa Parson (29:31):
So yum, yum, yum, yum. I also bought a coke
this afternoon and that wasdelicious because I don't drink
sodas that often. It was just sogood. Fuzzy - fizzy. I can't,
words. Fizzy and sweet.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:45):
Fizzy and sweet. Fuzzy, I think would have
worked.
Larissa Parson (29:48):
Kind of fuzzy in your mouth in a pleasant way.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:52):
My child very early on when she had
seltzer for the first time shesaid it was spicy.
Larissa Parson (29:58):
Spicy is one of my favorite kid words. *chuckle*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:04):
I love it!
Larissa Parson (30:06):
What about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:07):
Oh, well I'm on a streak and it's a
streak of all pure good fromPhoebe Snack Service. I am late
to the game..way lateapparently. She started during
the pandemic like Strong Arm andgoing solid. I have ordered
three times, and it isphenomenal. Okay, here's what
(30:29):
I've eaten that's amazing. Shehas something called like
World's Delicious Hummus and itis so so good. I mean, hummus?!
I go through that wholecontainer and it is so stinking
good. It is amazing I alsoordered something called plum
(30:56):
butter. And it is just as goodas you would imagine plum butter
would be. So I think there maybe a little bit of ginger in
here. I'm not sure my husband'slike "there's also little bit
cinnamon". So it came, I put itin the fridge. I mean, I'm
assuming it's supposed to berefrigerated. But it kind of is
(31:17):
like almost like a chunky sortof coulis-like kind of texture
to it. I had it on a bagel.
Absolutely delicious. So, sogood. We had this incredible
breaded eggplant with herhomemade tomato sauce. It's
delicious. It's also a differentday than will your see your
strong arm is Thursday. Mine isSaturday. So Phoebe Snack
Service on Thursday afternoon.
(31:41):
Love it.
Larissa Parson (31:49):
That sounds amazing. I am opening a tab
right now on my browser.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:52):
Yep, do it.
Larissa Parson (31:54):
Because clearly I need to give them a try.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:56):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (31:57):
Um, so before we wrap up, I just want to shout
out myself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:01):
Yes, please!
Larissa Parson (32:02):
And mentioned that I have spaces for one to
one clients and there's alwaysroom for you in the Slow Burn
community to talk about the wowthe how the agency that what is
yours and what is not yours -all of that good stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:15):
Yes.
Connecting with right people andsafe spaces looking at the yes
and pleasure delight all ofthat. Thank you, Larissa.
Larissa Parson (32:25):
Thanks. If you'd like to support our work here on
the podcast, you can head onover to patreon.com/wondermine
where you'll have access to ourbonus episodes and whatever
other awesomeness Elizabeth andI come up with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:42):
We are so grateful every time you share
Wondermine with friends. Writingus a review will help others
find their "wow" and "how" of alife rooted in curiosity,
community and liberation.
Larissa Parson (32:56):
And between now and our next season. You can
follow us on Instagram@wonderminepodcast. Thanks again
for listening. We are sodelighted that you've been here
with us
Welcome to Wondermine. I'm Larissa Parson.
I'm a joy coach, a movementteacher, a writer and podcaster,
a mom to twins and wow, I am sotired of this BS.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:15):
And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm a
parent, a partner or rapesurvivor and writer. I talk and
write about relationships,trauma and decision making. And
I'm very ready for a break.
Aren't we all? Yes.
Larissa Parson (00:30):
If you're new here, hello. We're the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the Wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:48):
If you would like to support the show,
thank you, you can do that byvisiting patreon.com forward
slash wonder mind. And if youdon't want to, that's okay, too.
We're just glad you're here.
Larissa Parson (01:01):
So this is the final episode of season two,
where we've been talking aboutwhat we don't talk about and
why.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:09):
Wow. But before we get started, as
always, let's talk about whatwe're reading. Larissa want to
start us off?
Larissa Parson (01:17):
Sure. So I am for once not reading smut.
*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:24):
Wow!
Larissa Parson (01:24):
*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:24):
OK
Larissa Parson (01:25):
I'm reading a novel called The Lost Apothecary
by Sarah Penner. It's prettytimely. It's a novel that
switches back and forth betweenthe past and a present day
setting. And the pastprotagonists are involved in
apothecary work. Butspecifically this apothecary
deals in poisons, mostly for menwho are not good men.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:49):
Great.
Larissa Parson (01:51):
And also, sometimes it's about using
abortifacients. And sometimesit's about herbs that you can
take to have fewer cramps andthings like that. So I'm like,
'Oh, this is right, on topic'.
And then the present dayprotagonist is a woman who has
come to realize after 10 yearsthat she completely lost her
sense of self in her marriageand she's rediscovering herself
while she's exploring London andspecifically runs into an
(02:14):
artifact from this apothecaryshop and is like trying to
connect all of the dots andfigure out this hidden history
of the apothecary. So reallyfun.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:25):
Ooh, yes, it is. I'm going to add that to
my list because that soundswonderful. I actually really
liked that present past flipback and forth. That's a fave
for me. So definitely a fan.
Larissa Parson (02:40):
It's fun. It's not super heavy. It's just a
light, easy read and I'm reallyenjoying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:47):
Nice. I didn't know until you said this
that you are reading a book thatis in London. Iactually just
rediscovered the Miss Peregrineseries:Miss Peregrine school for
(03:13):
Peculiar Children. So PeculiarChildren-- as opposed to
normals--Peculiar Children arekids or adults who have some
sort of fantastical,supernatural skill. And I found
this series ages ago, probablywhen it first came out, and then
I lost track of it during COVIDand rediscovered it. I just
(03:36):
finished the fifth bookyesterday, Conference of The
Birds. But Conference of theBirds is actually kind of some
(03:58):
of the time spent in London,some of the time setting the
United States. A delightfulfantasy series, I'm a big fan.
Larissa Parson (04:07):
I have not read those. So now I am adding them
to my list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:11):
Whaaat?
Larissa Parson (04:11):
I know...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:12):
Oh, okay.
Larissa Parson (04:13):
I know. I'll put them on my list.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:16):
So very timely, what you're reading and
what, what not necessarily whatI'm reading. But way back in
March. We introduced this seasonseason two, with our theme: what
we don't talk about and why. Wecame up with this topic after we
both read an excerpt of a bookon marriage that was published
in the New York Times wherethere was lots of discussion
(04:38):
about it afterwards. And ifyou're just joining us today for
the very first time--"hello andwelcome," --and it might make
sense for you to kind of journeyback to that episode where we
set this up a little bit better.
So lots of different responseresponses to that piece but
really what interested Larissaand I was something that wasn't
(05:01):
really talked about. And it'sabout the work that goes into
love, and relationships. And sothat got us thinking about all
kinds of topics where things areoff limits. Where they're not
socially acceptable. Or stuffthat we used to talk about and
don't any longer things. Orsubjects that we discussed,
maybe with only our closefriends or people who like
(05:23):
family that we feel really,really safe with, etc. So we
started with two topics thatused to feel very off limits and
are now mainstream in a way thatmost of us probably could not
have predicted, topics that feelvery relevant, especially in
this moment (05:39):
abortion and politics. And we ended our
season's topics last week withambition. So there's a lot we
could have covered. And some ofit is discussed in the patron
bonus episodes, so go there andlisten more if you'd like. But
there's some things like themothering, the work that goes
(06:01):
into mothering and parenting,that we left on the table, maybe
as a little snack for a futuretime. So we didn't cover
everything that we came up with,but we covered a lot.
Larissa Parson (06:12):
Yeah, and there's just so much that we
don't talk about, culturally,you know?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:19):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (06:21):
And some of our other topics included
perimenopause and desire andself care. And we both feel that
those things are sometimes hardto get personal and honest
about. But it's also really,really important to talk about
them. And to talk about thestructural pieces that disrupt
(06:41):
our ability and desire to talkabout hard things. That was a
complicated sentence. So tobreak it down a little bit, we
we looked at the micro scale ofthings. What did these topics
look like for us, and maybe forlisteners, like you. And the
macro scale of things. Whatinfluences us? What gets in our
(07:01):
way with these topics? When itcomes to the systems that we
live, work and play under, whatgets in the way? Despite our
best efforts, these systems haveinfluenced the decisions that we
make.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:24):
This is what happens when you co-create
something and you're using ashared Google Doc and...
(laughter from Larissa) and sohere we are, and it's so
beautifully imperfect. And herewe are today, right? So some of
us some might say thatwomen--and really what it comes
down to it, that's the majorityof our listeners --we can see
(07:44):
from multiple factors that weare are actually in a worse
place today than they were whenwe started the season way back
in March.
Larissa Parson (07:55):
In a short four months.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:57):
In four months look what's happened. And
you know, on my bad days, Iwould absolutely agree we are in
a worse place. And yet, despitefatigue and anger and fear, and
all of these big dark emotions,I just can't fold myself into
(08:20):
like a fetal position and liveon my bed, curled up all the
time, even though that's reallytempting. Especially these days.
So where does that leave us?
Where do we go kind of fromhere? What do we do when things
do you feel really bad? And Ithink it's totally fine to take
to our bed and be sad. And whatelse can we do?
Larissa Parson (08:44):
Right? Yeah, first we feel our feelings,
whatever they are.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:47):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (08:48):
Anger, fear, despair, totally fine to feel
those feelings. And then weremember that there are also
other feelings available to usand other experiences available
to our bodies. So number one,pleasure matters. Pleasure
matters. Joy matters. Delightmatters. Because without them,
(09:09):
we don't have hope. In everypost apocalyptic movie, there
are always little moments ofdelight. And those moments help
us hold on to the idea thathumanity, that the experience of
being human is worth it that'sworth continuing. All my Star
Wars fans know what I'm talkingabout. *chuckle*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:31):
Yeah, we do.
Larissa Parson (09:32):
*laughs* There's that little glimmer, that little
spark of hope. And pleasure isreally essential to that
experience of being human. Justas much as grief and sorrow and
pain and anger and all the otherfeelings. Elizabeth, I love your
smile.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:50):
*laughs*
Larissa Parson (09:51):
I love your smile so much *both laugh*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:54):
Oh gosh, I'm here wondering if Larissa is
thinking -- y'all this is soimportant, I hope everyone's
taking notes -and it's justreally like delightful to hear
about Star Wars and have thatcome up. That's very special to
me and I'm also like (lowersvoice) 'is Larissa talking
about early Star Wars, the onesthat I liked because I only like
the three original ones?' AndI'm thinking about Han Solo and
(10:14):
in the end that you know, thatcan be kryptonite
(laughter)...wait, what's thething he's in?
Larissa Parson (10:20):
Oh my god! I'm 45, Elizabeth. You just asked me
to recall an actual noun.
*laughs*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:26):
He is trapped in...
Larissa Parson (10:27):
He is trapped in the freezy thing...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:30):
Yes!! And I'm like 'that's the hope I'm
talking about God dammit.'
Larissa Parson (10:37):
There's a line from one of the recent movies
that was percolating through mymind. But it's also in that
first movie in the firsttrilogy. Not the line but like,
just thinking about Leia goingto Obi Wan and saying "you're my
only hope".
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:50):
Yes. You are my only hope.
Larissa Parson (10:51):
She knows that there's somebody else out there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:53):
Yep.
Larissa Parson (10:54):
And that there's a reason to persist.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (10:57):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (10:58):
And there are all these moments of ---just to
stay on Star Wars for one moresecond here--
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:03):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (11:04):
There are all these moments of delight and
pleasure and joy, woven throughthose movies, even though it's
on a like a galactic Civil Warscale. Yeah, there's still all
of these fun things.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:14):
Yeah. And things are really bad.
Larissa Parson (11:16):
Things are very, very bad.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:18):
Things are really bad. I mean, we don't
need to get too like deep intothis. But I sometimes think that
we think you say, or I sometimesI'll say just speak for myself,
I say 'this is a great series'.
And there's like good versusevil. And things are actually
really, really bad for a lot ofthis series. Things are pretty
dire. And when you say "civilwar" like yes, this is totally
(11:38):
what's going on in Star Wards.
So, so yeah, yes to all of that.
And I don't mean to distract us.
But I do want to come back tothat main point that you're
saying that, you know, feel ourfeelings and like, pleasure
matters. Yes, delight isimportant. Joy matters. Because
(11:59):
without them, we don't havehope.
Larissa Parson (12:03):
And we need hope to make change.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:05):
And we need hope to make change.
Larissa Parson (12:10):
Because if we don't, why are we bothering
trying if there's no hope?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:14):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
Larissa Parson (12:17):
So yes, things are bad now.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:20):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (12:21):
And something else we can do, in addition to
like, oh, pleasure. Yeah, let meenjoy my coffee. Let me read
memes while the world burns -that's one of the memes going
around right now. But somethingelse we can do is figure out
what we do have agency over.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:37):
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (12:38):
What can we do?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:41):
You sort of neatly set this up for me
because one of the things thatwe can do, something that we do
have agency over, is connectingwith our right people connecting
with right relationships. Thisis not gonna come to anyone as
(13:01):
some huge epiphany here, becausewe bring it up in pretty much
every single episode. Becauseit's always a tool that we can
access at any point, if we wantto. And yes, there are steps
that we need to do to figure outwho those people are. But it is
also a piece that we can workwith. So those right people,
they validate, right? Like, asLarissa lovingly said above,
(13:21):
'things are bad. Yes, Elizabeth,things are bad.' And in doing so
our right people help us feelless alone.
They help us feel less "crazy"and more "normal". Okay. {And
I'm saying "normal" but it's aninvented category, right? Like
(13:42):
no one is "normal". Normal is aninvented category, kind of like
time is an invented thing. Andclosure is an invented thing.
I'm also using "crazy" inquotes, because that can be a
term that people can throw atfolks who have persistent mental
health issues in a derogatorysense. But I'm using it here
(14:02):
because sometimes we talk aboutourselves as crazy, right? Like,
"I'm the crazy one. I am the onewho is screwed up". } So our
right people also do somethinglike they remind us that we're
not the problem. And this is abig one.
Larissa Parson (14:18):
Yeah
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:19):
Right?
Because sometimes we're inclinedto think we are the problem. The
problem is us. And the thingthat is wrong is the way that
we're doing something or that weare the we are the dysfunctional
one who can't make it happen.
But the problem is the systemsthat we live under, they are not
set up to support us at all.
They are designed to work forand maintain power and comfort
(14:41):
for are white men in the world.
Larissa Parson (14:46):
Yes,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:47):
So our right people do all these super
important things for us. LikeLarissa is doing right now.
They're validating, they'rereminding they're normalizing,
they're supporting.
Larissa Parson (14:56):
Yes, yes, yes, yes. So I have to say that I've
had a lot on my mind over thelast few months, as Elizabeth
knows, beyond the problems ofthis country, on a deeply
personal level. And I havereally been leaning into my
right people. And they've beenright there, to do exactly that.
(15:22):
And, and I will say, tocommiserate at the same time on
the state of the world, but toalso say, and your problem is
real - to validate, remind,normalize and offer support.
And, I think that that's reallyimportant. Because just because
the world is - I have so manywords that I don't want to say
it on a podcast - crapalicious,let's say, right now, it doesn't
(15:47):
mean that your individualproblems go away. And it's
really important that torecognize that we all need our
individual, right people and oursupport systems in order to
strive for collective change aswell.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And sometimesI get into a right people
tangent, so I didn't want to goback to which is, you know, --
Larissa Parson (16:13):
It's worth it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:14):
It is worth it! But what Larissa was
saying before is figuring outwhat we have agency over, right?
Because there are things that wedon't have agency over. So this
idea of like, what can Icontrol? What's under my scope
here?
Larissa Parson (16:34):
Yeah, and part of that is talking about the
stuff in general. So like, ifwe'd never talked about
abortion, then we wouldn't knowthings like how important bodily
autonomy is. We might know fromother contexts, but bringing
that into part of theconversation around abortion is
(16:55):
really important. So, when wetake a second to think about,
okay, well, if body bodilyautonomy is something that's
important to me, then we canstart thinking about what we can
as part of what we have agencyover. And then that can help us
understand what our scope ofactivism would be in the context
(17:17):
of the life that you're actuallyliving. And that's one of the
things you're right people canreally help you with, is they
can say, hey, so I know you'regoing through a really rough
time with your kids. Maybe now'snot the time to volunteer to
walk people into the clinic.
Maybe now's the time to work onhelping them figure out their
sense of bodily autonomy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (17:36):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (17:37):
So, it's okay if we're making small things
happen. It's okay if we'remaking ripples in what feels
like a tiny pond.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (17:49):
And I think sometimes, it's doesn't
feel like it's okay. Because itfeels like we shouldn't be
making these massive bigchanges, right? Like, we should
be out there really impactingthe world in super big ways. And
that is just --and some of uscan do that and I think that's
wonderful--and some of us can't,and that's okay, too. So if the
(18:12):
"only" thing that you're doingto combat racism, sexism,
misogyny in the world, istalking to your kids about it,
about what we they are seeingand hearing and helping them be
better kids than lots of USadults, that is still really
good, important work that you'redoing in the world.
Larissa Parson (18:33):
Yeah. I think I might even argue that it's some
of the most important activismthat we can engage in, if that's
what's available to us. It'sperforming love as an action.
And it just occurred to methough, I'm sure someone else
has said this before somewhereelse. But, part of the reason
(18:57):
that many of us whose primarywork is caregiving, might
devalue the impact of raisingjustice-minded kids is exactly
because the systems we live indevalue caregiving work in
general. So, if you're not outthere making big structural
(19:19):
change, what are you even doing?
And I really think that attitudecomes from the devaluing of
doing care work, period. And Iwant to throw that out there for
us to think about, that thiscaregiving work is essential
labor, and raising children tobe kinder and more equitable
than the world they're growingup in is changemaking work on a
huge scale that feels small.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:44):
It feels small, but it's huge. And this
is such a beautiful andimportant point. Larissa
caregiving work is essentiallabor. And just a side note,
we're talking about AngelaGarbes, new book about very same
issue Essential Labor (19:58):
Mothering as Social Change in August's
Wondermine book group. So headto the Patreon for more
information. But raising kids tobe kinder and more equity
focused than our current worldis absolutely change making
(20:20):
activist work. Don't let anyonelet them tell you differently.
Larissa Parson (20:27):
Yeah. Period.
The end.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:30):
Yeah. And the end. Um, can I jump in here
briefly about resilience?
Larissa Parson (20:36):
Yes, of course you can.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:39):
So I want to add a little bit here around
resilience, and how resilienceis really important to unlocking
our own sense of activism.
Resilience is not just aboutmanaging hard things. Okay.
Resilience is also aboutmanaging the uncertain. So
coming to terms with the stuffthat we don't know, we can't
ever know. So figuring out whatour, (cough) our own sense of
(20:59):
activism can and will look likehelps fuel ourselves and build
resilience in us. Right? Again,personal agency, right?
Larissa Parson (21:11):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:11):
What do I have control over? So unlocking
that sense of activism can helpus move from bed in fetal
position to using those badfeelings that we have-- not, not
*wrong*, bad, but things thatfeel like they're
uncomfortable..
Larissa Parson (21:27):
unpleasant.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:28):
Yes, thank you-- to help us change the
state of the world, or at leastthe state of our world, also
important.
Larissa Parson (21:36):
Yeah, and for us to decide what we actually have
control over, and to work withinthe boundary of what we have
control over can be reallydeeply liberating. Because it
frees us from the idea that weneed to do more than we are
capable of doing. That boundarymight include within it things
(21:59):
like voting and writing torepresentatives. But it also,
more importantly, to me, I mean,yes, vote, please vote. It also
includes things like how we showup in our communities, in our
homes, in our bodies every day.
How do I show up in my bodyevery day and where does that
(22:23):
give me agency to do things inthe world? What if I changed my
attitude toward my body? Andthat means that my kid has a
sense of greater agency overtheir body. And less pressure
from outside things like dietculture. Elizabeth's making a
face at me, because I'm gettingoff topic.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (22:42):
I'm making a face at you, because I'm so
excited that we've wrapped indiet culture somewhere!
(laughter) Because that's true,right? I think that's one of the
things that when I hear likeChristy Harrison--I read her
newsletter-- and she's talkingabout things like diagnoses,
(23:03):
that don't actually meananything like leaky gut-- one of
the things that she comes backto, even in her book, is think
about all of the time that isspent managing diet culture in
your life.
Larissa Parson (23:18):
Uh huh.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:19):
Wow, wouldn't it be amazing if we
could spend that time doingsomething that builds
resilience, that gives us ourown sense of autonomy. We don't
have to go out and like change aworld again, like we can just do
things within our own self inour own world. If we could put
down some of these other pieces.
So I just love this.
Larissa Parson (23:40):
Yeah. Well, thank you. I'm glad I took that
little excursion. I want to pickup on what you just said. We'll
get back on topic on our on ourlittle train here in just a sec.
Making changes and freeingourselves from things like diet
culture, in our own world, wedon't realize how much influence
(24:03):
we have on other people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:06):
Say that again!
Larissa Parson (24:07):
We don't realize how much influence we have on
other people, unless they tellus. And they almost never tell
us. It very rarely shows up. Butwhen it does show up, you
suddenly realize, 'Wow, thereare all these people who don't
even know me that I aminfluencing'. And it's not like
(24:30):
either one of us is sitting herewith a million Instagram
followers. So it's not abouthaving broad influence. It's
about having deep meaningfulrelationships that spread a
little bit of joy and self loveand radical everything into the
world. Radical acceptance maybe.
So, to get us back on topichere, though. There is so much
(24:54):
that we are responsible for inour day to day lives - so much.
And there is so very little thatwe can really control. So when
we talk about agency andautonomy, we're talking about
what is actually my work here.
(25:17):
Not picking up everything andfeeling responsible for
everything.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:24):
And that's really hard. Because it's really
hard to not want to pick upeverything because there's a lot
of asks that are made of us on aregular basis. And it's hard to
figure out which work is ours tosay "yes" to?
Larissa Parson (25:42):
Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:44):
That's a tricky thing. And also, there's
socialization around likecaregiving and giving more to
people and taking care ofothers. And, you know, doing
this kind of like a deepemotional labor, you know, so
this is a tricky thing. But Iwant to just repeat something
that you just said, because Ireally think this is an
important nugget. There's somuch that we're responsible for,
(26:07):
and yet, so little we cancontrol.
Larissa Parson (26:13):
Yeah. Anybody who has had long term
relationships with youngchildren that are more intimate
than seeing them once a weekknows that there's very little
you can control.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Larissa Parson (26:27):
Or long term relationships with adults - very
little you can control.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:32):
Very little you can control, yeah.
Larissa Parson (26:33):
But you feel responsible for a lot.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:36):
Yes.
Um, is Han trapped in carbon?
Larissa Parson (26:45):
Carbonite!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:46):
Carbonite!
Larissa Parson (26:47):
Yes!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:48):
It's called Carbonite?
Larissa Parson (26:49):
It's carbonite.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:51):
Is that a real thing?
Larissa Parson (26:53):
Is it really Carbonite?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:55):
What's carbon, then?
Larissa Parson (26:56):
*laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:56):
Wait, carbon's a gas... (edited to
say, clearly Elizabeth is NOT achemistry person. Carbon is a
solid.)
Larissa Parson (26:58):
We know what carbon is *laughter*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:01):
Right. I'm out. I am not a chemistry
person.
Larissa Parson (27:03):
Yes, it's Carbonite.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:05):
Okay.
Larissa Parson (27:05):
It's Carbonite.
It's totally carbonite. Wow. Whohas the entireoriginal trilogy
memorized? I do. Can I recallthat one word? No.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:15):
No.
Larissa Parson (27:15):
No
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:16):
I got carbon. I got part of it. I got
a couple of syllables.
Larissa Parson (27:20):
Once you said carbon, I knew it was Carbonite.
*laughing*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:23):
There is yet one more reminder of why you
need to your right people... youcome up with a couple of
syllables, they complete theword. (laughter) What?! What is
this?
Larissa Parson (27:35):
I love ending on this. (laughter)
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:37):
So do I.
And the only thing better thanending on this is thanking
everyone who has been involvedin this podcast. And really what
that means is anyone who hasliterally ever listened to an
episode, liked a post, sharedsomething, wrote us a review,
ignored the barking dog in thebackground, all of those things.
We are so so grateful for all ofyou, beautiful people. One of
(28:02):
those beautiful people --she'sthe best wrote!-- wrote in after
episode four "Female Troubles".
A big keeper in my mind. And shesaid ""ust wanted to let you
know how much I loved episode 4-- congratulations, and THANK
YOU for talking about thesethings! Nothing else like it. I
(28:23):
can't imagine betterstewards/shepherds of these
conversations than you two.
Love listening and grateful forthe work you do."
Larissa Parson (28:33):
That is just so lovely. This is exactly what I
was talking about. We don't knowuntil somebody tells you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:41):
We don't know, right.
Larissa Parson (28:42):
I love that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:43):
And we don't recognize how much
influence we have on otherpeople unless they tell us and
they usually don't. Okay, can weclose with what we're eating? Do
you want to go first?
Larissa Parson (28:55):
Sure. So today I'm picking up my CSA.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:00):
Oh, yeah.
Larissa Parson (29:01):
In like 20 minutes as soon as we're done,
and I got the spinach dip fromStrong Arm, which I love. Oh,
good. It's like spinach andthere's some water chestnuts in
there.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:12):
I was gonna say it's water chestnuts.
I've had this.
Larissa Parson (29:14):
It's crunchy so you get the crunchy and it's
cheesy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:18):
Yep.
Larissa Parson (29:18):
So I'm like, Oh, I feel virtuous for eating green
things not virtuous. Likethere's no bad foods, y'all. But
I feel like Oh, I'm supposed toeat more green things and I want
to eat more green things andoften don't so yay me, meeting
my goals.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:30):
Yay you.
Larissa Parson (29:31):
So yum, yum, yum, yum. I also bought a coke
this afternoon and that wasdelicious because I don't drink
sodas that often. It was just sogood. Fuzzy - fizzy. I can't,
words. Fizzy and sweet.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:45):
Fizzy and sweet. Fuzzy, I think would have
worked.
Larissa Parson (29:48):
Kind of fuzzy in your mouth in a pleasant way.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:52):
My child very early on when she had
seltzer for the first time shesaid it was spicy.
Larissa Parson (29:58):
Spicy is one of my favorite kid words. *chuckle*
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:04):
I love it!
Larissa Parson (30:06):
What about you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:07):
Oh, well I'm on a streak and it's a
streak of all pure good fromPhoebe Snack Service. I am late
to the game..way lateapparently. She started during
the pandemic like Strong Arm andgoing solid. I have ordered
three times, and it isphenomenal. Okay, here's what
(30:29):
I've eaten that's amazing. Shehas something called like
World's Delicious Hummus and itis so so good. I mean, hummus?!
I go through that wholecontainer and it is so stinking
good. It is amazing I alsoordered something called plum
(30:56):
butter. And it is just as goodas you would imagine plum butter
would be. So I think there maybe a little bit of ginger in
here. I'm not sure my husband'slike "there's also little bit
cinnamon". So it came, I put itin the fridge. I mean, I'm
assuming it's supposed to berefrigerated. But it kind of is
(31:17):
like almost like a chunky sortof coulis-like kind of texture
to it. I had it on a bagel.
Absolutely delicious. So, sogood. We had this incredible
breaded eggplant with herhomemade tomato sauce. It's
delicious. It's also a differentday than will your see your
strong arm is Thursday. Mine isSaturday. So Phoebe Snack
Service on Thursday afternoon.
(31:41):
Love it.
Larissa Parson (31:49):
That sounds amazing. I am opening a tab
right now on my browser.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:52):
Yep, do it.
Larissa Parson (31:54):
Because clearly I need to give them a try.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:56):
Yes.
Larissa Parson (31:57):
Um, so before we wrap up, I just want to shout
out myself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:01):
Yes, please!
Larissa Parson (32:02):
And mentioned that I have spaces for one to
one clients and there's alwaysroom for you in the Slow Burn
community to talk about the wowthe how the agency that what is
yours and what is not yours -all of that good stuff.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:15):
Yes.
Connecting with right people andsafe spaces looking at the yes
and pleasure delight all ofthat. Thank you, Larissa.
Larissa Parson (32:25):
Thanks. If you'd like to support our work here on
the podcast, you can head onover to patreon.com/wondermine
where you'll have access to ourbonus episodes and whatever
other awesomeness Elizabeth andI come up with on our walks.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:42):
We are so grateful every time you share
Wondermine with friends. Writingus a review will help others
find their "wow" and "how" of alife rooted in curiosity,
community and liberation.
Larissa Parson (32:56):
And between now and our next season. You can
follow us on Instagram@wonderminepodcast. Thanks again
for listening. We are sodelighted that you've been here
with us
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