March 29, 2023 • 33 mins
Elizabeth and Larissa discuss how interpersonal trauma affects the way that we're able to show up for and be present in community.
Referred to in the show:
Robin Coste Lewis, Voyage of the Sable Venus and Other Poems
Elizabeth reads the poem “The Mothers," which you can read here: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/58757/the-mothers
Alexis Hall, A Lady for a Duke
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:02):
Welcome to Wondermine season three. I'm
Larissa Parson, I'm a bodyliberationist, a writer and
podcaster, a mom of twins, and abig fan of my morning coffee.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:15):
And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson, I'm a
writer, reader, parent andeater. You can find me at
EMJwriting on Twitter andInstagram. And I write a very
occasional Substack called RipeTime.
Larissa Parson (00:31):
And it's such a good one. Thank you. If you're
new here, hello. We're the duobehind this feminist podcast
that looks at the wow and thehow of living a life rooted in
curiosity, community andliberation. If you've ever felt
like something was missing, oryou were missing something,
Wondermine is the podcast foryou.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:51):
If you would like to support the show,
thank you! You can do that foras little as $5 a month by
visiting patreon.com forwardslash wondermine, and you get
monthly bonus episodes and amonthly book club.
Larissa Parson (01:07):
So before we dive in, we always want to start
with what we're reading. Andthen we end with what we're
eating. Elizabeth, do you wantto go first and tell me what
you're reading right now?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:16):
Sure. I'm reading Robin Coste Lewis's 2015
book of poetry called Voyage ofthe Sable Venus. And it's a
lovely collection that I foundvia a Hilton Als piece in The
New Yorker in December aboutLewis who I had no idea who she
was. She is a black mom. Um, sheis queer. She is a poet and a
(01:40):
teacher. She lives in LosAngeles, I think, her family's
from New Orleans, something likethat. But she lives in Los
Angeles currently, and will linkto the article in the show
notes. But I just, I reallyliked this piece. I'm just gonna
read it really briefly. It'scalled "The Mothers." We meet,
sometimes, between the dry hoursbetween cliffs in the
(02:02):
involuntary plan, refusing tothink of rent or food, how civic
the slick dissatisfied from manand democratic a Lucky Strike
each we sponge each other off.
While what's greyed in and greyslinks ashamed down the drain.
No need to articulate greatrestraint. No need to see each
(02:25):
other's mouth lip, the obvious.
Giddy. Fingers garnished withfumes of onions and garlic, I
slipped back into my shift, thenwatch her hands, wordless.
Reattach her stockings to themurdered rubber moons waving at
(02:45):
her garter.
Not fun, I loved it. There'slike so much going on there that
I was really like, Oh, this isneat. So really, that's where
I'm at right now enjoying thisvery much. I love it. What about
you? What are you reading?
Larissa Parson (03:01):
So I have been I just got started reading Alexis
Hall's A Lady for a Duke, whichis, you know, like the, the
title is like, Oh, this is ahistorical romance as is, but
it's one with a twist, thefemale main character is trans.
And she was best friends withthe male love interest before
(03:26):
her transition, and she getsinjured at Waterloo as a
soldier. Okay, and then comesback having made this
transition. Hmm. And so and thenthey of course, meet again. And
she's Yeah, and we see whathappens. Like she's so far where
I am. She's just like, does heknow who I really am? Or who I
(03:50):
was? Or like, you know, like,does he know the relationship
that we, does he know therelationship that we had before?
Because they were very, veryclose friends, like, and, and
this guy is all broken up overher supposed death. He thought
that she had died. So he's youknow, grieving this loss of
this, of this dear companion andfriend. And so I'm very excited
(04:14):
to see how it all unfolds.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:17):
How far are you into the book?
Larissa Parson (04:18):
Not very. Oh, not very simple. Like a lots
happened pretty quickly. Yeah,just like just like a quarter,
maybe a third of the waythrough? I think not very far.
Like, I keep reading it at nightand am very sleepy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:30):
Okay. All right, then. Yeah, Lady for a
Duke put it on your list.
Larissa Parson (04:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's really good. It's very sweet so
far. Um, so today we are goingto talk about trauma and
community. If you are a newlistener, this is not the best
episode to start listening to uswith which to start listening to
us. Our theme this season iscommunity and each episode this
(04:58):
season is going to build off ofthe other. So you should
probably go back to Episode One.
And start there if you're brandnew to us, because you'll get a,
like a summary of where we'vebeen before, so that you know
where we're going now. And ifyou're really in a rush, then
you could just start withEpisode Two for a primer on how
we're talking about community.
And that will help ground youfor this conversation.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:19):
So when we were planning this series of
episodes for this season, Iwanted to make sure that we are
in that we're including howimpact of trauma affects our
ability to build community andof course, how we see each
other, how we see ourselves, andwe see others in the communities
(05:40):
that we are existing in. And soI don't, I think we're, you
know, other people that we'vetalked... Larissa and I have
talked a lot about attachmentstyles, kind of like not here in
this space, but kind of offline.
And I, for me, I think we can'treally talk about community
without thinking about trauma.
And so I'm talking about,obviously, all kinds of trauma,
(06:02):
but most specifically here formy, most specifically here for
our purposes, but also inkeeping with what my own area of
expertise is, is talking aboutinterpersonal trauma. So,
intimate partner violence,neglect as a child violence in
your family of origin, sexualabuse in any capacity, things
like that. So, because traumanot only impacts how we relate
(06:26):
to others, specifically how wetrust or don't trust others, it
also influences how we seeourselves. So I come to this
work with a background ininterpersonal trauma. So the
trauma that's happened in therelationships that we are in
with others, so whether that'sfamily of origin, or a partner
relationship, so we're going tobe limiting the scope of
(06:48):
conversation a bit here tointerpersonal trauma, and that's
impact on community. Butobviously, when we think about
living in a warzone, or goingthrough a natural disaster, when
you lose parts of your membersof your family, or you're
injured in some way, obviously,that's going to also impact
(07:09):
communities that you identifywith, communities that you feel
like you're a part of.
Larissa Parson (07:13):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I just want to pull out
like a little, a little bit moreon that main point that we're
talking about here. So thereason that we need to talk
about trauma today isparticularly about how we have
learned to cope with our trauma,how we've learned to respond to
(07:35):
things because of the traumathat we have experienced,
affects the way that we show upwith ourselves with our friends,
in the larger community, in theworld. Like there's there's no
interrelating with other peoplethat isn't affected by our
(07:57):
trauma histories. And so thathas ripple effects out into the
community as a whole in terms ofhow we react when things happen
in our communities, as well.
Elizabeth M. Johnso (08:07):
Absolutely.
So for our purposes, here, justas a little bit of a refresher,
we're defining community as thisreally big group of people that
you know, in real life andonline. And so those are social
media friends, those are workcolleagues, or professional
associations, those of course,your family of origin and chosen
family, those are friends. Thoseare folks that you maybe
volunteer as part of a team withthose are book club people,
(08:30):
those are church connections,all that we're surrounded by a
lot of people on a regularbasis, which means we have a lot
of people influencing us, yes,and this can be hard for trauma
survivors for a number ofreasons. It can feel really
overwhelming when we have a lotof different voices, sort of
(08:54):
metaphorically speaking here,not that people are shouting us,
but a lot of different voicescoming at us on a regular basis.
Who do we listen to? Who won'thurt us? Who can we trust? Who
do we allow in? So basically,the big question here is like,
Who can we trust, right? When wehave so many different things
kind of coming at us? Right? Wehave something that that our
(09:14):
church connections are tellingus, or a priest, or someone
else, and then we have somethingour family's telling us, and
then we have something ourfriend says, and they're also
this person that we follow onsocial media says this.
Larissa Parson (09:23):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And how can we trust
ourselves to discern who we cantrust? How do we, how do we
trust ourselves? How do we, howdo we feel what trust feels
like, in the first place? Andlike, we need to feel trusted,
we need to trust people. Andthat's all part of developing
self trust, too. So we're like,okay, how do we get there? Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:47):
So and I think that this is, this is I
feel like in some ways, it'skind of like the million dollar
question because in my mind ifthe other side of the coin of
like, you know, how do we, howdo we, how do we love someone?
How do we? How do we acceptlove? How do we give love? And I
(10:10):
think there's, they're, they'resimilar, right? Like, I don't
think and this is sort of whenwe go back to, I think it's
Season Two or season one wherewe're, I'm talking about the
influence of someone like BrucePerry in the work that I've,
that I've done, you know, hewould say that this idea of like
love yourself first is, isreally a lot of bunk. Because
one can't just do thatautomatically. We have to feel
(10:31):
the love from the outside safe,trusted people before we can
then understand what that'slike, internalize that, and then
reflect that back out to thosepeople who are deserving of us.
And I think trust is somethingthat's very similar, right? I
need to feel your trust withinme, Larissa, before I can start
(10:52):
to sort of say, Okay, this iswhat it might look like if I put
myself out and start to trusther, you.
Larissa Parson (10:59):
Exactly, exactly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:00):
So, like, interpersonal trauma, like any
kind of rape or abuse or neglectis usually perpetrated by
someone that we know. And so ofcourse, there are going to be
these situations where we arehurt by someone who is an
absolute stranger to us. Butthat's that is definitely the
minority of most interpersonaltrauma. So that's, that's the,
(11:25):
it's not that it does nothappen. But that is in the
minority. So most of the time,when we're hurt, we're hurt by
someone that we know. And whenwe're hurt by someone that we
know, trust is obviously lost.
Trust is lost, it's really hardto feel connected to other
people. Because it can be hardto get to the vulnerability that
you need in order to get totrust. So despite being in this
(11:46):
massively large community,right, we might pull back
because community is so large,again, lots of voices, lots of
differing opinions, right? Forthe most part, it's hard to sift
through to who we can trust, andwho we should trust.
Larissa Parson (12:03):
Yes. And so then we pull back, pulling back from
people is this like, lack ofconnection, it's lack of feeling
connection, the lack of feelinglike we can trust people. And
that, of course, leads us toloneliness and a sense of
isolation. And then that turnsinto this kind of self
(12:25):
perpetuating cycle of moreisolation, leading to a bigger
sense of loneliness. And we'relonely because we're isolated,
and you can't alone yourselfinto connection with other
people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:37):
Right?
Much as we would think thatsomehow that might work for us.
Right? And it's not in we'renot, I mean, no one's no one is
laughing at someone else'sexpense here. But it almost
seems like we should be able tosuss this out on our own right,
when we think about likebootstrapping, and like, be more
resilient and kind of moving,just sort of, you know, move
past it. But we can't. And Ithink it's important to note
(12:58):
here, that isolation can reallylook different depending on the
person. And we've talked aboutthis a lot in past support
groups that I've left, that I'veled. So for one survivor, this
might look like not allowinganyone into their home, right,
home is their absolute safeplace. It's the predictable
place, it's the place where theyknow they can be themselves, and
without any judgment orquestioning, and they're
(13:20):
absolutely safe and acceptedthere. Right. And for another
survivor, maybe it means comingto group but you know, every
once in a while, because evensmall groups can be
overwhelming. You know, and sowhen we think about like, how
this might show up in, in placesit in other in other areas of
our life, maybe this is theperson who keeps some of those
(13:42):
health care appointments, butnot all of them. Because if
there's someone who's alsodealing with like, some chronic
health conditions, there couldbe a lot of health care
appointments and other piecesthat just feel overwhelming to
kind of continually go to,again, continually have lots of
different voices coming to them.
And that might feel safest tothem for to sort of dial back
(14:02):
how much they can dip into that.
Yeah, I feel like I should sayto this, this can look, too,
like totally different. Like,for for anyone you know, for me,
you know, I was told a lot whenI was a kid that I was like, a
lot. You know, I was taking uptoo much space. I wanted too
much. I was so greedy. And Ithink sometimes in my own life
(14:23):
with my own friends, I tend totake up less space because I
really am remembering a lot ofhow I was seen that I'm needing
attention, or I'm wanting a lotor I'm asking for too much. And
so for me that sometimestranslates into my theory, which
does not always work out for me.
(14:45):
Because it's probably not thebest of like if you want to know
something from me, you will askbecause you would write like
that's that's how I kind oftemper it.
Larissa Parson (14:56):
That's totally what happens, Elizabeth!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:59):
Yes, absolutely. And it's interesting
to kind of hear that from yourperspective, too, because then
you can see that, you know, sobut I'm like, Well, if you want
to know, you ask like, I'm thebiggest open book in the world,
you know, but if you don't ask,then I'm assuming you don't want
to know. And I've taken enoughspace with what I have kind of
going on. And we'll move on,I'll probably give you more
space.
Larissa Parson (15:20):
Let's be clear that Elizabeth like, I like it
when you tell me things withoutasking, without my asking. So
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:26):
I think this is good. Good to hear.
Right? Again, nice to have thisand we'll talk so much more
about this in a future episode.
But yeah, like theseconversations, which we really
don't have with friends, youknow, how here's my tendency to
show up this way? And this iswhy, you know, can you help me
be better at whatever asking forhelp or taking up more space
(15:46):
when we talk? Okay. Yes, um, butlet me turn this around and ask
you what you think the rest ofus so like, here's the thought,
you know, how? Well when whenpeople intentionally withdraw
themselves into the safety oftheir own world, you know,
intentionally not necessarilymeaning like consciously, but
(16:06):
they just do it. Right. That'sthere's an act that's happening.
Because that outside world arethere so many voices can feel
overwhelming, or triggering orintimidating or whatever. How
does that, do you think, affectcommunity?
Larissa Parson (16:19):
So I want to, before I actually answer that
question, I want to like put apin in the idea that we are
talking really specificallyabout this as a as a kind of a,
like a trauma response, asopposed to like a disability
situation or an anxietysituation. That is, that is a
chemical situation and yourbrain. Like I just want to be
really clear about that. BecauseI think that some people
(16:41):
listening might go like, but Idon't know, it's not about that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:45):
Yeah, right. And so right, like people
who were like, who isagoraphobia? Like people who are
like, really crippling anxiety,but
Larissa Parson (16:54):
this is not what I'm talking about.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:55):
It's not we're talking about here. Yep.
Larissa Parson (16:57):
Yeah, we're talking about Yeah, so I just
want to make that really clear.
So I think there are a couple ofways, aside from that, that this
can go. One is that if no oneknows that you're suffering,
like, that you are having a hardtime and that is why you are
withdrawing, then nobody canhelp alleviate that suffering.
And we have said over and overagain, that we don't do this
(17:18):
alone, you can't just go intoyour cave and come out fixed.
But also, you're not broken,but, right, like, let's be
really clear. And then numbertwo, if you're always withdrawn
into your own world, because theoutside world is too much,
you're also not contributing tocommunity either. And like, the
tiniest little asteriskexception is maybe like, if you
(17:41):
are, in fact community tocommunity. Maybe you're engaging
with people in meaningfulconnection-building ways online,
because that is the way thatfeels safe to you. But you're
still building genuineconnections. And like, we saw a
lot of that in the first year orso of the pandemic, where we
(18:02):
just we did have these real,actual human connections. And
just but like, when that dropsaway, what are you doing? How
are you engaging in yourcommunity? Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (18:17):
So two important pieces, right? So when
we withdraw, we don't givepeople the opportunity to step
up and help us feel better,right? When we withdraw, and
we're on our own, there's justno way we can generate feelings
of belonging, we need otherpeople to have to, to help us
get to those feelings ofbelonging that are so important
(18:39):
for us in order to trust. And inorder to kind of build those,
that broader community, whichhopefully then will include
right people. But also, wedeprive the broader community of
our presence, of the gifts thatwe have, of the insights that we
can share, of the mentorshipthat we can offer. The
experience that we have, wedon't we don't, there's no way
(19:04):
that we can make things better,better for all of us, basically,
when we withdraw from thatlarger community.
Larissa Parson (19:11):
Right? Right. So if we're not engaged, we don't
make things better. And thenbecause trauma influences how we
see ourselves. And that alsomeans like, how do we see
ourselves in community? How dowe see ourselves as members of
this thing? as part as, like,belonging to groups, and we're
gonna get into all the groupslater, but like, how do we see
(19:32):
ourselves as, as having a senseof belonging, when trauma is
telling us something different?
We can change that narrative.
It's possible to change that thetrauma, the narrative that
trauma wants us to keep telling.
And there's a lot of differentways that we can get into that,
but I think I'm going to passthis over to you, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:56):
Well, I think that we can so one way we
can like one way I can changethe narrative, right, is I can
remind myself that it is okayfor me to take up space. You
know that my thoughts that aboutmy kid or my worries about XY
and Z are something that arewelcome with my right people.
And I can remind myself of thewords that you just said
(20:17):
actually, that yes, you don'twant me to wait to say, you
know, what do you think about orwhat do you think whatever, what
is up with that, in order for meto share those pieces? Right?
Those are some ways that I cankind of change my own narrative
and that I've worked on changingmy own narrative around this
knowing how this affects me.
Larissa Parson (20:36):
Yeah, exactly.
That's, Those are such greatexamples. The other thing we can
do is take a page from Dr.
Marisa G. Franco's Platonic, thebook Platonic, we can assume
that people basically like you,which is like, it's so simple.
It's so sounds so simple, butit's really difficult in
(20:59):
practice sometimes to do. But ingeneral, people are primed to
connect with other people, thatis what we just all want to
connect. So it is safe to assumethat people probably like you,
when they're first meeting you.
That doesn't mean thateveryone's going to be your best
friend long term. And that wouldbe ridiculous and impossible to
expect. But you can start byassuming when you're meeting new
(21:21):
people walking into a room fullof strangers, that people are
probably gonna basically likeyou, they're gonna basically be
polite and kind.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:32):
Yeah, and that's just, I feel like
sometimes can be. It's, that islike, right, that's like a good
tool that we can sort of hold onto, right, yeah, go into a
situation and just say, peopleare in it. Because sometimes
it's sometimes it's helpful to,you know, we can talk about
ourselves in third person orsomething like that. But just to
(21:52):
remind ourselves, like, this islike actual science. This is not
like anyone's opinion, this isexactly what Dr. Franco has
talked about in the book that wereally love, and that we've
talked about at length in termsof how important it is to help
us kind of like buildrelationships that matter and
figure out who our right peopleare, we can just go in and
assume that people will like us.
Yes. Okay. When they're meetingus for the first time, people
(22:14):
will like us. Yeah, so no matterwhat, isolation, right, so let's
go back to that for a second,might look like due to trauma or
the narrative that you tellyourself about your capacity for
friendship, or who deserves tobe who deserves you as a friend,
or who you deserve to have as afriend? You know, there's still
(22:36):
like, a really common factorthat we really have to talk
about here. And we justmentioned it, it's right people,
and right relationships. Yeah,there's one thing that I feel
like we've continued to stressfor so long, and that's going to
come up a lot this season isthat these are so important for
us, they are essential for us.
(22:57):
Right. And that's reallyessential. It's essential, like
food, water, movement, you know,whatever, all those other things
are, what else is on our list?
Sun, I guess? Yeah, um, youknow, what else is out there?
We, we need those people inorder to help us parse through,
right, like all of the voicesthat are coming at us, all the
information that's coming at us,that's telling us things like,
you're not good enough, becauseyou don't look like this, or you
(23:18):
you're not good enough, becauseyou don't have this, or you're
not XY and Z because of this,you know, whatever that is, we
need the right people help cutthrough all of that. They help
us feel understood andvalidated, heard and seen all of
those really important things,you know, but despite all of
that, right, it's still really,really hard to get us out into
(23:38):
the world and find those rightrelationships and those right
people because of past trauma,and other things for sure. But
for right now, we're talkingabout that. Yeah,
Larissa Parson (23:49):
yeah. So I just want to pick up on that a little
bit, Elizabeth and say like,it's really hard to get out in
the world and find the rightpeople, the right relationships,
when we feel like trauma isimposing itself on us in some
way. And, and that doesn't meanthat we should feel lesser,
(24:19):
because of our trauma, if thatmakes sense. Like having a, like
a, your trauma history doesn'tjust harm you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:29):
Yeah, and that's a really good lead in for
me and I, and this is somethingthat I've talked about before
and I kind of get mixedresponses on. But I'm gonna say
that I do think there can beelements of a trauma history
that can be a gift for us, andI've talked to other trauma
survivors about it. And I thinkthat, you know, we need to kind
(24:50):
of, I really want to be clearthat, you know, there's that I'm
not saying something like Um,you know, I got over this and
look how much better a person itmade me like, that's definitely
not what I'm saying here. Butwhat I am saying is that
sometimes trauma survivors havelittle bits of gifts in the way
(25:15):
that they relate to other peoplethat others do not have.
Larissa Parson (25:20):
It. Yeah, I think it's really important to
say this isn't a What doesn'tkill you makes you stronger kind
of thing. Yeah, this is justYeah. Like, like our lived
experiences contribute to thetotality of who we are,
including our strengths. Yeah.
And I like, I think, you know,when I think about this for
myself, based on my own, livedexperiences, my temperament,
what how my brain works, thingslike that, I am really sensitive
(25:44):
to a lot of things. And thatmakes me really good at kind of
hearing and validating otherpeople's experiences and
reassuring them about what'sokay about being who they are.
Like, that is, that's one of mymy skills, and it's totally a
strength. And it's the strengththat I bring to lots of
(26:04):
different relationships, tofriendships, to romantic
relationships. And especiallyalso to honestly, the
relationship that I'm developingwith my kids is one of the
things I'm really good at islike hearing them and validating
them.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:19):
Yeah, I think that's a. So that's an
important piece right there.
They're absolutely these theseelements that kind of come to us
as a byproduct, I think of atraumatic experience or
something that feels like atrauma. Remember, we get to
define what's trauma to us.
Yeah. And the fact that you'resaying is that it actually is
something that you use in avariety of different
(26:41):
relationships. Yeah, you know,so I think that's a really kind
of key piece that I just want tolike, you know, pin there a
little bit. So one of thosegifts, I believe, is this deeper
connection to intuition. And Iknow this is a little woowoo.
And if you've ever met me, I'mpretty much the least woowoo
person you'll ever meet.
Larissa Parson (27:00):
That's why we're the weirdest friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:02):
That's why we're very a very odd couple
here, I think. But I'm like,totally not woowoo. But I'll
tell you, I have an other. I,when I've talked to other
survivors around this, they arealso the one to be like, Well,
I'm not a crunchy person. But Iwill say that I do feel like I
am more intuitive than otherpeople, I noticed things. And
(27:24):
it's that I feel things before Ihave the firsthand knowledge of
a situation. And I willabsolutely agree with this, I
can think of you know, so manydifferent situations where I've
been like, you actually are nota safe person. Or this is maybe
a situation that I'm concernedabout, and we're just gonna go
the other way. And it shows upwith random strangers. It shows
(27:49):
up with in in partnerrelationships. Absolutely. As
you're saying it shows up in,you know, in my ability to kind
of like, connect with my child,and of course, like friends and
other situations. So I thinkthat is absolutely one of those
pieces here.
Larissa Parson (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:08):
Yeah. So I think this is this idea is like,
you know, trauma being an impacton our ability to build
community there. Is there isthis, which we introduced sort
of season one is this idea ofyes and, right. Yes, And, I may
be more inclined to perhaps kindof intuit what you need in a
certain situation, not all thetime. And certainly, like not a
(28:30):
flawless perfection, kind oflike I'm always on it, no, or
what is needed from thesituation or what I should
avoid. But I'm also sometimesprobably a little bit more
inclined to give more than Iquote unquote, should because I
am super sensitive to others andkind of pick up on things. Maybe
more than others might.
Larissa Parson (28:51):
Right and then I'm going to think that that is
one of those places where we getto spend a lot of time playing
with and growing is like, whatis too much, what is enough to
give here? And, and, and howwonderful it is to be a friend
or a person in your life whogets to receive and then give
back.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for
that. Um, anything else we wantto say about that? I feel like
this is a one there. There mightbe questions on and if there's
questions just kind of tossthose to us via via social
media. Yeah, you want to want towant to close unless there's
something else and close withwhat we're eating.
Larissa Parson (29:29):
Sure. That's what we're eating. I have a date
with myself tonight.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:33):
Oh, that's right. Yum, yum, yum, yum. Good.
Larissa Parson (29:37):
But of course, you know me, Elizabeth, I could
not resist texting a friendgoing to dinner together before
my night to myself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:43):
Oh my gosh, did you really?
Larissa Parson (29:46):
I do not know how to do it. I was like, if
it's like we have dinner at 530It doesn't count right? So
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:56):
you're too much you're too much
Larissa Parson (29:58):
I AM too much!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:59):
It's so funny.
Larissa Parson (30:02):
So I am going to enjoy my date with myself and I
will probably pick up some sortof dessert to enjoy in my house
by myself. After I see myfriend, I just you know, like
it's some sort of cake, somesort of pie something sweet,
maybe like some special herbaltea to drink while I am chilling
out this evening.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:22):
Hmm, where are you going to go for that?
Are you going to the co op? Justbecause it's easy, and you can
just walk there and get that?
Are you going some like what areyou thinking?
Larissa Parson (30:29):
We're gonna meet up at Saladelia, so I'll check
and see what they have, takesomething to go or or I'll run
over to the co op, you know,kind of depends on the weather
and and how much time I havelater today to run. Maybe I'll
go over there now and picksomething up for later. Could
happen.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:45):
Good. And you're on your way about you're
over there. You should stop in,Or if they're not, if it's still
open, their cafe at where thebakery part or whatever, at
Guglhupf. They'll always havesome good, good good stuff. And
there's nice, those are nice,small, small sizes. They're not
really sharing. So yes,
Larissa Parson (31:04):
I might just pick up baklava. You never know.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:07):
Oh, that's nice. That's nice. Um, so I am
eating something that I made formyself last week that holds up
super, super well. When I waslike, prepping for my
colonoscopy, and had to havelike, I could have like, very
(31:28):
ripe bananas or like applesauce.
I mean, I don't I can't standapplesauce. The worst thing? Oh,
yeah, it's so gross. It's sototally gross. But, um, what I
did and I do love because it'ssuch a nice spread on top of
like a piece of toast or bagelor something like that is I
roasted some peeled pears,roasted pears and I roasted
(31:49):
bananas together. And they'rereally nice, they are. This is
one of my favorite things thatI've done before. It's like a
good little snack and like anice little appetizer kind of
thing. Or like ordered androasted that altogether, blended
it up and the food processoruntil it's just a real nice sort
of smooth, smoothable, spread,spread, smooth, spreadable,
spread,
Larissa Parson (32:11):
spread, smooth spread.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:13):
That doesn't sound right. And that's
like clearly really redundant.
So I had that I'm gonna havethat I had some last week I made
you know, it just makes like areally nice amount. It's not.
It's like a baby food kind oflike texture. But it's not a
purée, like it doesn't feel likeyou're eating baby food. Yeah,
it's really nice. So I'm goingto have that. Nice.
Larissa Parson (32:33):
That sounds delicious. Good with brie, by
the way.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:36):
Oh, now we're getting fancy. Yeah, it
wasn't cheese.
Larissa Parson (32:39):
Yeah, I mean, cheese makes so many things
better. Everything is alright,so if you would like to support
our work here on the podcast,head over to
patreon.com/wondermine, whereyou'll have access to our
monthly bonus episodes and ourmonthly book club.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:55):
And in the interim, follow us at
Wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thanks again. We're so delightedyou've been listening.
Welcome to Wondermine season three. I'm
Larissa Parson, I'm a bodyliberationist, a writer and
podcaster, a mom of twins, and abig fan of my morning coffee.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:15):
And I'm Elizabeth M. Johnson, I'm a
writer, reader, parent andeater. You can find me at
EMJwriting on Twitter andInstagram. And I write a very
occasional Substack called RipeTime.
Larissa Parson (00:31):
And it's such a good one. Thank you. If you're
new here, hello. We're the duobehind this feminist podcast
that looks at the wow and thehow of living a life rooted in
curiosity, community andliberation. If you've ever felt
like something was missing, oryou were missing something,
Wondermine is the podcast foryou.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:51):
If you would like to support the show,
thank you! You can do that foras little as $5 a month by
visiting patreon.com forwardslash wondermine, and you get
monthly bonus episodes and amonthly book club.
Larissa Parson (01:07):
So before we dive in, we always want to start
with what we're reading. Andthen we end with what we're
eating. Elizabeth, do you wantto go first and tell me what
you're reading right now?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:16):
Sure. I'm reading Robin Coste Lewis's 2015
book of poetry called Voyage ofthe Sable Venus. And it's a
lovely collection that I foundvia a Hilton Als piece in The
New Yorker in December aboutLewis who I had no idea who she
was. She is a black mom. Um, sheis queer. She is a poet and a
(01:40):
teacher. She lives in LosAngeles, I think, her family's
from New Orleans, something likethat. But she lives in Los
Angeles currently, and will linkto the article in the show
notes. But I just, I reallyliked this piece. I'm just gonna
read it really briefly. It'scalled "The Mothers." We meet,
sometimes, between the dry hoursbetween cliffs in the
(02:02):
involuntary plan, refusing tothink of rent or food, how civic
the slick dissatisfied from manand democratic a Lucky Strike
each we sponge each other off.
While what's greyed in and greyslinks ashamed down the drain.
No need to articulate greatrestraint. No need to see each
(02:25):
other's mouth lip, the obvious.
Giddy. Fingers garnished withfumes of onions and garlic, I
slipped back into my shift, thenwatch her hands, wordless.
Reattach her stockings to themurdered rubber moons waving at
(02:45):
her garter.
Not fun, I loved it. There'slike so much going on there that
I was really like, Oh, this isneat. So really, that's where
I'm at right now enjoying thisvery much. I love it. What about
you? What are you reading?
Larissa Parson (03:01):
So I have been I just got started reading Alexis
Hall's A Lady for a Duke, whichis, you know, like the, the
title is like, Oh, this is ahistorical romance as is, but
it's one with a twist, thefemale main character is trans.
And she was best friends withthe male love interest before
(03:26):
her transition, and she getsinjured at Waterloo as a
soldier. Okay, and then comesback having made this
transition. Hmm. And so and thenthey of course, meet again. And
she's Yeah, and we see whathappens. Like she's so far where
I am. She's just like, does heknow who I really am? Or who I
(03:50):
was? Or like, you know, like,does he know the relationship
that we, does he know therelationship that we had before?
Because they were very, veryclose friends, like, and, and
this guy is all broken up overher supposed death. He thought
that she had died. So he's youknow, grieving this loss of
this, of this dear companion andfriend. And so I'm very excited
(04:14):
to see how it all unfolds.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:17):
How far are you into the book?
Larissa Parson (04:18):
Not very. Oh, not very simple. Like a lots
happened pretty quickly. Yeah,just like just like a quarter,
maybe a third of the waythrough? I think not very far.
Like, I keep reading it at nightand am very sleepy.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:30):
Okay. All right, then. Yeah, Lady for a
Duke put it on your list.
Larissa Parson (04:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's really good. It's very sweet so
far. Um, so today we are goingto talk about trauma and
community. If you are a newlistener, this is not the best
episode to start listening to uswith which to start listening to
us. Our theme this season iscommunity and each episode this
(04:58):
season is going to build off ofthe other. So you should
probably go back to Episode One.
And start there if you're brandnew to us, because you'll get a,
like a summary of where we'vebeen before, so that you know
where we're going now. And ifyou're really in a rush, then
you could just start withEpisode Two for a primer on how
we're talking about community.
And that will help ground youfor this conversation.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:19):
So when we were planning this series of
episodes for this season, Iwanted to make sure that we are
in that we're including howimpact of trauma affects our
ability to build community andof course, how we see each
other, how we see ourselves, andwe see others in the communities
(05:40):
that we are existing in. And soI don't, I think we're, you
know, other people that we'vetalked... Larissa and I have
talked a lot about attachmentstyles, kind of like not here in
this space, but kind of offline.
And I, for me, I think we can'treally talk about community
without thinking about trauma.
And so I'm talking about,obviously, all kinds of trauma,
(06:02):
but most specifically here formy, most specifically here for
our purposes, but also inkeeping with what my own area of
expertise is, is talking aboutinterpersonal trauma. So,
intimate partner violence,neglect as a child violence in
your family of origin, sexualabuse in any capacity, things
like that. So, because traumanot only impacts how we relate
(06:26):
to others, specifically how wetrust or don't trust others, it
also influences how we seeourselves. So I come to this
work with a background ininterpersonal trauma. So the
trauma that's happened in therelationships that we are in
with others, so whether that'sfamily of origin, or a partner
relationship, so we're going tobe limiting the scope of
(06:48):
conversation a bit here tointerpersonal trauma, and that's
impact on community. Butobviously, when we think about
living in a warzone, or goingthrough a natural disaster, when
you lose parts of your membersof your family, or you're
injured in some way, obviously,that's going to also impact
(07:09):
communities that you identifywith, communities that you feel
like you're a part of.
Larissa Parson (07:13):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I just want to pull out
like a little, a little bit moreon that main point that we're
talking about here. So thereason that we need to talk
about trauma today isparticularly about how we have
learned to cope with our trauma,how we've learned to respond to
(07:35):
things because of the traumathat we have experienced,
affects the way that we show upwith ourselves with our friends,
in the larger community, in theworld. Like there's there's no
interrelating with other peoplethat isn't affected by our
(07:57):
trauma histories. And so thathas ripple effects out into the
community as a whole in terms ofhow we react when things happen
in our communities, as well.
Elizabeth M. Johnso (08:07):
Absolutely.
So for our purposes, here, justas a little bit of a refresher,
we're defining community as thisreally big group of people that
you know, in real life andonline. And so those are social
media friends, those are workcolleagues, or professional
associations, those of course,your family of origin and chosen
family, those are friends. Thoseare folks that you maybe
volunteer as part of a team withthose are book club people,
(08:30):
those are church connections,all that we're surrounded by a
lot of people on a regularbasis, which means we have a lot
of people influencing us, yes,and this can be hard for trauma
survivors for a number ofreasons. It can feel really
overwhelming when we have a lotof different voices, sort of
(08:54):
metaphorically speaking here,not that people are shouting us,
but a lot of different voicescoming at us on a regular basis.
Who do we listen to? Who won'thurt us? Who can we trust? Who
do we allow in? So basically,the big question here is like,
Who can we trust, right? When wehave so many different things
kind of coming at us? Right? Wehave something that that our
(09:14):
church connections are tellingus, or a priest, or someone
else, and then we have somethingour family's telling us, and
then we have something ourfriend says, and they're also
this person that we follow onsocial media says this.
Larissa Parson (09:23):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And how can we trust
ourselves to discern who we cantrust? How do we, how do we
trust ourselves? How do we, howdo we feel what trust feels
like, in the first place? Andlike, we need to feel trusted,
we need to trust people. Andthat's all part of developing
self trust, too. So we're like,okay, how do we get there? Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (09:47):
So and I think that this is, this is I
feel like in some ways, it'skind of like the million dollar
question because in my mind ifthe other side of the coin of
like, you know, how do we, howdo we, how do we love someone?
How do we? How do we acceptlove? How do we give love? And I
(10:10):
think there's, they're, they'resimilar, right? Like, I don't
think and this is sort of whenwe go back to, I think it's
Season Two or season one wherewe're, I'm talking about the
influence of someone like BrucePerry in the work that I've,
that I've done, you know, hewould say that this idea of like
love yourself first is, isreally a lot of bunk. Because
one can't just do thatautomatically. We have to feel
(10:31):
the love from the outside safe,trusted people before we can
then understand what that'slike, internalize that, and then
reflect that back out to thosepeople who are deserving of us.
And I think trust is somethingthat's very similar, right? I
need to feel your trust withinme, Larissa, before I can start
(10:52):
to sort of say, Okay, this iswhat it might look like if I put
myself out and start to trusther, you.
Larissa Parson (10:59):
Exactly, exactly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:00):
So, like, interpersonal trauma, like any
kind of rape or abuse or neglectis usually perpetrated by
someone that we know. And so ofcourse, there are going to be
these situations where we arehurt by someone who is an
absolute stranger to us. Butthat's that is definitely the
minority of most interpersonaltrauma. So that's, that's the,
(11:25):
it's not that it does nothappen. But that is in the
minority. So most of the time,when we're hurt, we're hurt by
someone that we know. And whenwe're hurt by someone that we
know, trust is obviously lost.
Trust is lost, it's really hardto feel connected to other
people. Because it can be hardto get to the vulnerability that
you need in order to get totrust. So despite being in this
(11:46):
massively large community,right, we might pull back
because community is so large,again, lots of voices, lots of
differing opinions, right? Forthe most part, it's hard to sift
through to who we can trust, andwho we should trust.
Larissa Parson (12:03):
Yes. And so then we pull back, pulling back from
people is this like, lack ofconnection, it's lack of feeling
connection, the lack of feelinglike we can trust people. And
that, of course, leads us toloneliness and a sense of
isolation. And then that turnsinto this kind of self
(12:25):
perpetuating cycle of moreisolation, leading to a bigger
sense of loneliness. And we'relonely because we're isolated,
and you can't alone yourselfinto connection with other
people.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:37):
Right?
Much as we would think thatsomehow that might work for us.
Right? And it's not in we'renot, I mean, no one's no one is
laughing at someone else'sexpense here. But it almost
seems like we should be able tosuss this out on our own right,
when we think about likebootstrapping, and like, be more
resilient and kind of moving,just sort of, you know, move
past it. But we can't. And Ithink it's important to note
(12:58):
here, that isolation can reallylook different depending on the
person. And we've talked aboutthis a lot in past support
groups that I've left, that I'veled. So for one survivor, this
might look like not allowinganyone into their home, right,
home is their absolute safeplace. It's the predictable
place, it's the place where theyknow they can be themselves, and
without any judgment orquestioning, and they're
(13:20):
absolutely safe and acceptedthere. Right. And for another
survivor, maybe it means comingto group but you know, every
once in a while, because evensmall groups can be
overwhelming. You know, and sowhen we think about like, how
this might show up in, in placesit in other in other areas of
our life, maybe this is theperson who keeps some of those
(13:42):
health care appointments, butnot all of them. Because if
there's someone who's alsodealing with like, some chronic
health conditions, there couldbe a lot of health care
appointments and other piecesthat just feel overwhelming to
kind of continually go to,again, continually have lots of
different voices coming to them.
And that might feel safest tothem for to sort of dial back
(14:02):
how much they can dip into that.
Yeah, I feel like I should sayto this, this can look, too,
like totally different. Like,for for anyone you know, for me,
you know, I was told a lot whenI was a kid that I was like, a
lot. You know, I was taking uptoo much space. I wanted too
much. I was so greedy. And Ithink sometimes in my own life
(14:23):
with my own friends, I tend totake up less space because I
really am remembering a lot ofhow I was seen that I'm needing
attention, or I'm wanting a lotor I'm asking for too much. And
so for me that sometimestranslates into my theory, which
does not always work out for me.
(14:45):
Because it's probably not thebest of like if you want to know
something from me, you will askbecause you would write like
that's that's how I kind oftemper it.
Larissa Parson (14:56):
That's totally what happens, Elizabeth!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:59):
Yes, absolutely. And it's interesting
to kind of hear that from yourperspective, too, because then
you can see that, you know, sobut I'm like, Well, if you want
to know, you ask like, I'm thebiggest open book in the world,
you know, but if you don't ask,then I'm assuming you don't want
to know. And I've taken enoughspace with what I have kind of
going on. And we'll move on,I'll probably give you more
space.
Larissa Parson (15:20):
Let's be clear that Elizabeth like, I like it
when you tell me things withoutasking, without my asking. So
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:26):
I think this is good. Good to hear.
Right? Again, nice to have thisand we'll talk so much more
about this in a future episode.
But yeah, like theseconversations, which we really
don't have with friends, youknow, how here's my tendency to
show up this way? And this iswhy, you know, can you help me
be better at whatever asking forhelp or taking up more space
(15:46):
when we talk? Okay. Yes, um, butlet me turn this around and ask
you what you think the rest ofus so like, here's the thought,
you know, how? Well when whenpeople intentionally withdraw
themselves into the safety oftheir own world, you know,
intentionally not necessarilymeaning like consciously, but
(16:06):
they just do it. Right. That'sthere's an act that's happening.
Because that outside world arethere so many voices can feel
overwhelming, or triggering orintimidating or whatever. How
does that, do you think, affectcommunity?
Larissa Parson (16:19):
So I want to, before I actually answer that
question, I want to like put apin in the idea that we are
talking really specificallyabout this as a as a kind of a,
like a trauma response, asopposed to like a disability
situation or an anxietysituation. That is, that is a
chemical situation and yourbrain. Like I just want to be
really clear about that. BecauseI think that some people
(16:41):
listening might go like, but Idon't know, it's not about that.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:45):
Yeah, right. And so right, like people
who were like, who isagoraphobia? Like people who are
like, really crippling anxiety,but
Larissa Parson (16:54):
this is not what I'm talking about.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:55):
It's not we're talking about here. Yep.
Larissa Parson (16:57):
Yeah, we're talking about Yeah, so I just
want to make that really clear.
So I think there are a couple ofways, aside from that, that this
can go. One is that if no oneknows that you're suffering,
like, that you are having a hardtime and that is why you are
withdrawing, then nobody canhelp alleviate that suffering.
And we have said over and overagain, that we don't do this
(17:18):
alone, you can't just go intoyour cave and come out fixed.
But also, you're not broken,but, right, like, let's be
really clear. And then numbertwo, if you're always withdrawn
into your own world, because theoutside world is too much,
you're also not contributing tocommunity either. And like, the
tiniest little asteriskexception is maybe like, if you
(17:41):
are, in fact community tocommunity. Maybe you're engaging
with people in meaningfulconnection-building ways online,
because that is the way thatfeels safe to you. But you're
still building genuineconnections. And like, we saw a
lot of that in the first year orso of the pandemic, where we
(18:02):
just we did have these real,actual human connections. And
just but like, when that dropsaway, what are you doing? How
are you engaging in yourcommunity? Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (18:17):
So two important pieces, right? So when
we withdraw, we don't givepeople the opportunity to step
up and help us feel better,right? When we withdraw, and
we're on our own, there's justno way we can generate feelings
of belonging, we need otherpeople to have to, to help us
get to those feelings ofbelonging that are so important
(18:39):
for us in order to trust. And inorder to kind of build those,
that broader community, whichhopefully then will include
right people. But also, wedeprive the broader community of
our presence, of the gifts thatwe have, of the insights that we
can share, of the mentorshipthat we can offer. The
experience that we have, wedon't we don't, there's no way
(19:04):
that we can make things better,better for all of us, basically,
when we withdraw from thatlarger community.
Larissa Parson (19:11):
Right? Right. So if we're not engaged, we don't
make things better. And thenbecause trauma influences how we
see ourselves. And that alsomeans like, how do we see
ourselves in community? How dowe see ourselves as members of
this thing? as part as, like,belonging to groups, and we're
gonna get into all the groupslater, but like, how do we see
(19:32):
ourselves as, as having a senseof belonging, when trauma is
telling us something different?
We can change that narrative.
It's possible to change that thetrauma, the narrative that
trauma wants us to keep telling.
And there's a lot of differentways that we can get into that,
but I think I'm going to passthis over to you, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:56):
Well, I think that we can so one way we
can like one way I can changethe narrative, right, is I can
remind myself that it is okayfor me to take up space. You
know that my thoughts that aboutmy kid or my worries about XY
and Z are something that arewelcome with my right people.
And I can remind myself of thewords that you just said
(20:17):
actually, that yes, you don'twant me to wait to say, you
know, what do you think about orwhat do you think whatever, what
is up with that, in order for meto share those pieces? Right?
Those are some ways that I cankind of change my own narrative
and that I've worked on changingmy own narrative around this
knowing how this affects me.
Larissa Parson (20:36):
Yeah, exactly.
That's, Those are such greatexamples. The other thing we can
do is take a page from Dr.
Marisa G. Franco's Platonic, thebook Platonic, we can assume
that people basically like you,which is like, it's so simple.
It's so sounds so simple, butit's really difficult in
(20:59):
practice sometimes to do. But ingeneral, people are primed to
connect with other people, thatis what we just all want to
connect. So it is safe to assumethat people probably like you,
when they're first meeting you.
That doesn't mean thateveryone's going to be your best
friend long term. And that wouldbe ridiculous and impossible to
expect. But you can start byassuming when you're meeting new
(21:21):
people walking into a room fullof strangers, that people are
probably gonna basically likeyou, they're gonna basically be
polite and kind.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:32):
Yeah, and that's just, I feel like
sometimes can be. It's, that islike, right, that's like a good
tool that we can sort of hold onto, right, yeah, go into a
situation and just say, peopleare in it. Because sometimes
it's sometimes it's helpful to,you know, we can talk about
ourselves in third person orsomething like that. But just to
(21:52):
remind ourselves, like, this islike actual science. This is not
like anyone's opinion, this isexactly what Dr. Franco has
talked about in the book that wereally love, and that we've
talked about at length in termsof how important it is to help
us kind of like buildrelationships that matter and
figure out who our right peopleare, we can just go in and
assume that people will like us.
Yes. Okay. When they're meetingus for the first time, people
(22:14):
will like us. Yeah, so no matterwhat, isolation, right, so let's
go back to that for a second,might look like due to trauma or
the narrative that you tellyourself about your capacity for
friendship, or who deserves tobe who deserves you as a friend,
or who you deserve to have as afriend? You know, there's still
(22:36):
like, a really common factorthat we really have to talk
about here. And we justmentioned it, it's right people,
and right relationships. Yeah,there's one thing that I feel
like we've continued to stressfor so long, and that's going to
come up a lot this season isthat these are so important for
us, they are essential for us.
(22:57):
Right. And that's reallyessential. It's essential, like
food, water, movement, you know,whatever, all those other things
are, what else is on our list?
Sun, I guess? Yeah, um, youknow, what else is out there?
We, we need those people inorder to help us parse through,
right, like all of the voicesthat are coming at us, all the
information that's coming at us,that's telling us things like,
you're not good enough, becauseyou don't look like this, or you
(23:18):
you're not good enough, becauseyou don't have this, or you're
not XY and Z because of this,you know, whatever that is, we
need the right people help cutthrough all of that. They help
us feel understood andvalidated, heard and seen all of
those really important things,you know, but despite all of
that, right, it's still really,really hard to get us out into
(23:38):
the world and find those rightrelationships and those right
people because of past trauma,and other things for sure. But
for right now, we're talkingabout that. Yeah,
Larissa Parson (23:49):
yeah. So I just want to pick up on that a little
bit, Elizabeth and say like,it's really hard to get out in
the world and find the rightpeople, the right relationships,
when we feel like trauma isimposing itself on us in some
way. And, and that doesn't meanthat we should feel lesser,
(24:19):
because of our trauma, if thatmakes sense. Like having a, like
a, your trauma history doesn'tjust harm you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:29):
Yeah, and that's a really good lead in for
me and I, and this is somethingthat I've talked about before
and I kind of get mixedresponses on. But I'm gonna say
that I do think there can beelements of a trauma history
that can be a gift for us, andI've talked to other trauma
survivors about it. And I thinkthat, you know, we need to kind
(24:50):
of, I really want to be clearthat, you know, there's that I'm
not saying something like Um,you know, I got over this and
look how much better a person itmade me like, that's definitely
not what I'm saying here. Butwhat I am saying is that
sometimes trauma survivors havelittle bits of gifts in the way
(25:15):
that they relate to other peoplethat others do not have.
Larissa Parson (25:20):
It. Yeah, I think it's really important to
say this isn't a What doesn'tkill you makes you stronger kind
of thing. Yeah, this is justYeah. Like, like our lived
experiences contribute to thetotality of who we are,
including our strengths. Yeah.
And I like, I think, you know,when I think about this for
myself, based on my own, livedexperiences, my temperament,
what how my brain works, thingslike that, I am really sensitive
(25:44):
to a lot of things. And thatmakes me really good at kind of
hearing and validating otherpeople's experiences and
reassuring them about what'sokay about being who they are.
Like, that is, that's one of mymy skills, and it's totally a
strength. And it's the strengththat I bring to lots of
(26:04):
different relationships, tofriendships, to romantic
relationships. And especiallyalso to honestly, the
relationship that I'm developingwith my kids is one of the
things I'm really good at islike hearing them and validating
them.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:19):
Yeah, I think that's a. So that's an
important piece right there.
They're absolutely these theseelements that kind of come to us
as a byproduct, I think of atraumatic experience or
something that feels like atrauma. Remember, we get to
define what's trauma to us.
Yeah. And the fact that you'resaying is that it actually is
something that you use in avariety of different
(26:41):
relationships. Yeah, you know,so I think that's a really kind
of key piece that I just want tolike, you know, pin there a
little bit. So one of thosegifts, I believe, is this deeper
connection to intuition. And Iknow this is a little woowoo.
And if you've ever met me, I'mpretty much the least woowoo
person you'll ever meet.
Larissa Parson (27:00):
That's why we're the weirdest friends.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:02):
That's why we're very a very odd couple
here, I think. But I'm like,totally not woowoo. But I'll
tell you, I have an other. I,when I've talked to other
survivors around this, they arealso the one to be like, Well,
I'm not a crunchy person. But Iwill say that I do feel like I
am more intuitive than otherpeople, I noticed things. And
(27:24):
it's that I feel things before Ihave the firsthand knowledge of
a situation. And I willabsolutely agree with this, I
can think of you know, so manydifferent situations where I've
been like, you actually are nota safe person. Or this is maybe
a situation that I'm concernedabout, and we're just gonna go
the other way. And it shows upwith random strangers. It shows
(27:49):
up with in in partnerrelationships. Absolutely. As
you're saying it shows up in,you know, in my ability to kind
of like, connect with my child,and of course, like friends and
other situations. So I thinkthat is absolutely one of those
pieces here.
Larissa Parson (28:05):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:08):
Yeah. So I think this is this idea is like,
you know, trauma being an impacton our ability to build
community there. Is there isthis, which we introduced sort
of season one is this idea ofyes and, right. Yes, And, I may
be more inclined to perhaps kindof intuit what you need in a
certain situation, not all thetime. And certainly, like not a
(28:30):
flawless perfection, kind oflike I'm always on it, no, or
what is needed from thesituation or what I should
avoid. But I'm also sometimesprobably a little bit more
inclined to give more than Iquote unquote, should because I
am super sensitive to others andkind of pick up on things. Maybe
more than others might.
Larissa Parson (28:51):
Right and then I'm going to think that that is
one of those places where we getto spend a lot of time playing
with and growing is like, whatis too much, what is enough to
give here? And, and, and howwonderful it is to be a friend
or a person in your life whogets to receive and then give
back.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you for
that. Um, anything else we wantto say about that? I feel like
this is a one there. There mightbe questions on and if there's
questions just kind of tossthose to us via via social
media. Yeah, you want to want towant to close unless there's
something else and close withwhat we're eating.
Larissa Parson (29:29):
Sure. That's what we're eating. I have a date
with myself tonight.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:33):
Oh, that's right. Yum, yum, yum, yum. Good.
Larissa Parson (29:37):
But of course, you know me, Elizabeth, I could
not resist texting a friendgoing to dinner together before
my night to myself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:43):
Oh my gosh, did you really?
Larissa Parson (29:46):
I do not know how to do it. I was like, if
it's like we have dinner at 530It doesn't count right? So
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:56):
you're too much you're too much
Larissa Parson (29:58):
I AM too much!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:59):
It's so funny.
Larissa Parson (30:02):
So I am going to enjoy my date with myself and I
will probably pick up some sortof dessert to enjoy in my house
by myself. After I see myfriend, I just you know, like
it's some sort of cake, somesort of pie something sweet,
maybe like some special herbaltea to drink while I am chilling
out this evening.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:22):
Hmm, where are you going to go for that?
Are you going to the co op? Justbecause it's easy, and you can
just walk there and get that?
Are you going some like what areyou thinking?
Larissa Parson (30:29):
We're gonna meet up at Saladelia, so I'll check
and see what they have, takesomething to go or or I'll run
over to the co op, you know,kind of depends on the weather
and and how much time I havelater today to run. Maybe I'll
go over there now and picksomething up for later. Could
happen.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:45):
Good. And you're on your way about you're
over there. You should stop in,Or if they're not, if it's still
open, their cafe at where thebakery part or whatever, at
Guglhupf. They'll always havesome good, good good stuff. And
there's nice, those are nice,small, small sizes. They're not
really sharing. So yes,
Larissa Parson (31:04):
I might just pick up baklava. You never know.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (31:07):
Oh, that's nice. That's nice. Um, so I am
eating something that I made formyself last week that holds up
super, super well. When I waslike, prepping for my
colonoscopy, and had to havelike, I could have like, very
(31:28):
ripe bananas or like applesauce.
I mean, I don't I can't standapplesauce. The worst thing? Oh,
yeah, it's so gross. It's sototally gross. But, um, what I
did and I do love because it'ssuch a nice spread on top of
like a piece of toast or bagelor something like that is I
roasted some peeled pears,roasted pears and I roasted
(31:49):
bananas together. And they'rereally nice, they are. This is
one of my favorite things thatI've done before. It's like a
good little snack and like anice little appetizer kind of
thing. Or like ordered androasted that altogether, blended
it up and the food processoruntil it's just a real nice sort
of smooth, smoothable, spread,spread, smooth, spreadable,
spread,
Larissa Parson (32:11):
spread, smooth spread.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:13):
That doesn't sound right. And that's
like clearly really redundant.
So I had that I'm gonna havethat I had some last week I made
you know, it just makes like areally nice amount. It's not.
It's like a baby food kind oflike texture. But it's not a
purée, like it doesn't feel likeyou're eating baby food. Yeah,
it's really nice. So I'm goingto have that. Nice.
Larissa Parson (32:33):
That sounds delicious. Good with brie, by
the way.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:36):
Oh, now we're getting fancy. Yeah, it
wasn't cheese.
Larissa Parson (32:39):
Yeah, I mean, cheese makes so many things
better. Everything is alright,so if you would like to support
our work here on the podcast,head over to
patreon.com/wondermine, whereyou'll have access to our
monthly bonus episodes and ourmonthly book club.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:55):
And in the interim, follow us at
Wonderminepodcast on Instagram.
Thanks again. We're so delightedyou've been listening.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.