April 12, 2023 • 47 mins
Swiping a title from adrienne maree and Autumn Brown, we're talking about what goes into loving our friends, and why it's so important to do so.
Mentioned in this episode:
Praise by Sara Cate
Billy Collins https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/billy-collins
Mary Oliver https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/mary-oliver
Maggie Nelson https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/maggie-nelson
https://www.endoftheworldshow.org/
The Lazy Genius Way by Kendra Adachi
We also talked about Phoebe’s Snack Service and Vimala’s Curryblossom Café, for you Durham-area folks who love food.
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Music by ZakharValaha from Pixabay
Follow us on Instagram @wonderminepodcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Larissa Parson (00:02):
Welcome to Wondermine, Season Three. I'm
Larissa Parson, I'm a bodyliberationist, a writer and
podcaster a mom to twins. And Iam so glad that Ted Lasso is
back on the air. Is that evenwhat we call it? Like, is back
to streaming? I feel like adinosaur, Elizabeth. Like, oh my
gosh, I don't often feel likewow, there's a generational
(00:23):
problem here.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:25):
Or certainly like, I look to you
for these kinds of, like, popculture in the know kind of
terms and, and, and words, andso if you don't know that
clearly, I am no, I amabsolutely no help here.
Larissa Parson (00:36):
I should ask my children!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:38):
Ask the kids! Ask the kids. And I'm
Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm awriter, reader, parent and
eater, and I posted to mysubstack this week. More
regularly, you can find me onTwitter and on Instagram at
EMJwriting.
Larissa Parson (00:54):
And if you are new here, Hello. We're the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:12):
But first, what are we reading? We start
every episode with what we'rereading and we end with what
we're eating. Larissa, want togo first?
Larissa Parson (01:20):
Okay, so this week, I am reading smutty smut
smut. Okay. And it has been awhile since I have read some
smutty smut.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:27):
Smutty smut as opposed to like, just
plain like lowercase smutwithout any kind of adjectives
around it just smut, as is,almost?
Larissa Parson (01:35):
Yes. Sometimes I'll read just like a romance
novel with a little smut in it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:39):
Okay, no, this is smutty smut, smut.
Larissa Parson (01:41):
This is smutty smut, smut.I am almost finished
reading Praise by Sara Cate. AndI'm mostly reading it because my
friend who said no, you shouldread it tells me that the rest
of the books are really good.
Like you can see the authorbecoming a better author over
the course of the series. That'sme. Yeah. And it's got a great
depiction of kind of BDSM andkink stuff, but the female main
(02:09):
character is she's very young.
She's 21. And so I get a littlebit tired of that in my books.
Like I really am, like, you'reso young. But I'm really
enjoying it nonetheless. Whatabout you, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:32):
Yeah, so this is this is book one, right?
Just to be clear, this is one ina series.
Larissa Parson (02:38):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:38):
Praise.
Larissa Parson (02:39):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:41):
Okay, gotcha. Okay. I am in a, as we
know, I'm in a fiction rut, butI've got some coming. So I'm
excited to start that. But inthe meantime, I have been
sharing some poetry from KateBaer's new book, "And Yet," in
my Instagram story, and I'vementioned it in my substack
piece as well. Gosh, it is justbeautiful. It's fiery, but also
(03:05):
pretty commonplace. It's poemsabout mothering, what it means
to be a woman. Poems about smalljoys. So all of us little p
pleasures folks will appreciatethat. Huge heartaches. Yes,
exactly. Baer is a poet forfolks who don't like or don't
get poetry. So like, if you'rethat person who's like, I could
never read poetry or that feelsreally inaccessible to me, you
(03:27):
will like her, you will likeher. If you are a Billy Collins
fan, which I am. You will likeher if you're a Mary Oliver fan,
which I also am, and of course,like a Maggie Nelson. So poetry
is where I'm at right now.
Larissa Parson (03:37):
Nice. That's awesome. Um, for poetry folks.
You know, I'm a back and forthpoetry person. Yes. And, like, I
like poetry, and I lovedteaching poetry. But sometimes
I'm like, not today.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:51):
Yeah, it's kind of a funny thing to get
into because you read one ortwo, and then you're like, Okay,
and that's done now. I put itdown and I'm done. You don't
read through a book of poetry,for example. So I think it's
nice for small bites, too.
Larissa Parson (04:07):
Yes, I agree. I agree. It's nice. It's nice to
kind of have around in yourhouse so you can pick it up and
look. Anyway. Alright, so movingon. Today, we have an entire
episode devoted to the idea offriendlove. That's all one word,
(04:28):
friends. In case you missedDecember's bonus episode for
patrons, we'll do a little bitof a recap. So the idea of
friendlove comes from an episodefrom the brown sisters' podcast,
'how to survive the end of theworld'. And here's a quote from
the podcast that we reallyresonated with us. And I think
(04:50):
this is adrienne, right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:53):
That's my recollection. Yes, I think.
Larissa Parson (04:56):
Loving friendships provide us with a
space to experience the joy ofcommunity in a relationship
where we learn to process allour issues, to cope with
differences and conflict whilestaying connected.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:14):
So while we explore friendlove a little
bit in that bonus episode, wethought we really need to go a
little bit further under thatspecific piece of our community
umbrella for this season. Sowe're looking at ideas that we
have not touched on yet. Sothat's kind of what we're going
to be what we're going to bestarting with here.
Larissa Parson (05:32):
Right. So to do a little quick recap on kind of
where we were, as we dive intothis topic. You can think of
yourself - y'all can't see me,I'm gesturing wildly - in the
middle of the circle. And thenthere are several circles
radiating out from you. Andthose circles contain different
(05:56):
friends or different people. Sowe use friend as this like
umbrella term for people in ourlives who we know. The friend
who knows plumbing and householdstuff that you can call on, or
the brunch or dinner outfriends, a circle of people you
call when things suck, the bookclub friends, my smut club
(06:19):
friends, circle for the folkswho call up when you're in their
city, a circle for people whoare your music buddies, or your
knitting buddies, et cetera, etcetera.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:31):
Yeah. So they are fun people. Oh, and or
they can also be people who areavailable when things feel less
than easy.
For me, it makes me think thatthere's just no one person who
Larissa Parson (06:40):
Yes, and I want to make clear that with these
circles, it's not just thatthere are different circles for
different people in your lives.,but they also have varying
levels. So your friendlove hasvarying levels of commitment,
can be all of these things forus.
connection, depth, andintensity. And the quality of
this, really, theserelationships depend a lot on
(07:01):
circumstances, location, andeven life stages. So, it's not
Yeah, exactly. So just like yourromantic partner, or partners
just about like, my knittingbuddies, who are my buddies from
seventh grade for the rest of mylife. They might be my knitting
buddies for a little while. Sowhat does that make you think of
Elizabeth?
(07:32):
can't possibly meet all of yourneeds, neither can your friends.
But your whole community, all ofthose circles taken together
probably can. I mean, assuming,of course, that you've done the
work of figuring out what needsother people can meet and what
needs you need to meet foryourself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:51):
Yeah, and that's the end of the sentence,
but it feels like a reallyimportant piece to sort of seize
on here. No one is going to meetall of our needs. No one can
ever meet any of our needs,unless we have done some of the
work on ourselves, figuring outhow we need other people to show
(08:12):
up for us, where we can meetother people and what we need to
do for ourselves.
Larissa Parson (08:17):
Yeah, exactly.
And I think relates to this onethought that adrienne says that
I wanted to pick up on, which isthat, I never am alone. I'm
always in a community thatintimately knows and understands
me, helps me understand myself.
(08:37):
So that's going back to thatwhole, like, I need to know what
I need and who I care for sodeeply that it's a joyful
responsibility with thesepeople.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:50):
I'm listening to you say this. And
it's also like alone, like alonein the world. Not like she has
never physically without otherpeople, like alone in the world,
like doing this doing this worldtogether. But here, again,
responsibility, I want to reallywant to talk about that a little
bit. Because there's this is notjust like all ears and like blue
(09:11):
birds chirping in thebackground. So let's talk about
that. Let's make sure that we'reall on the same page, like what
does that look like or mean toyou, Larissa, this piece about
responsibility?
Larissa Parson (09:19):
So, responsibility. It means not
just that my friends are therefor me. They're all there when I
have problems, and they help mesolve them. It's that I'm also
responsible for them. Back whenwe talked about right people in
season one, one of the things wetalked about is that it's a
(09:41):
reciprocal relationship. Itdoesn't mean that we're all
sitting there with ledger'sgoing, Okay, well, Carrie texted
me last time about gettingtogether so it's my turn or they
brought me dinner, so I need totake them dessert or dinner or
whatever. You know, it's reallythat over time, there is a clear
sense of reciprocity as we areable to provide it. So sometimes
(10:03):
it looks like leaning a lot onyour friends for support. And
other times it looks like beingthe person who sets up the meal
train. And I've been in thatrole in the last couple of
years. I set up the meal trainfor my friend with cancer, and
then she set up the meal trainfor me when I had surgery. It
goes back and forth. And thisbrings me to another point,
(10:26):
which is that part of thatresponsibility and how we engage
with our responsibility isreally seeing and acknowledging
our friends for who they arejust as they are. And I just
want to add that that means thatwe make space and hold space for
what we're actually able to doin terms of reciprocity. So it
(10:48):
may not look like doing theexact same thing for somebody
else. It may be that I do a lotmore schlepping of a kid because
I'm fine with driving, and myfriend is not. And that's fine.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:00):
Yeah. I like these a lot. These are
really specific examples. It'slike meal train, meal train. And
or I'm the one who can do thispiece of it, because this is the
piece that I don't mind. And myfriend does this piece, which
really feels a little bit bettersuited towards her time or
schedule or her needs orwhatever. I feel like I'm asking
(11:24):
a lot of questions here. Whatabout engaging or how do we like
to be seen? You know, so how dowe show the people in our
circles that we're there forthem? So it's kind of a two-fold
question. How do we like to beseen and engaged with? And or
(11:44):
how do we show those people inthose circles that we have that
we are there for them? What doesthat look like, do we think? I
mean, I think I've got someideas but what do you think that
looks like?
Larissa Parson (11:53):
Well, I'm curious about your ideas now,
Elizabeth,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:57):
I asked you first. So you get to go.
Larissa Parson (12:03):
There are a bunch of ways that we do this.
But one of the things that Ihave been finding helpful is
being really direct with myright people, with my community,
with my circles, about how Ishow up for them best, and how I
like to be shown up for. So thisgoes back to that whole, like,
(12:24):
knowing what you need and askingfor it. Yeah, I am not going to
be the person--despite the factthat like half of my closest
friends are gift people--
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:35):
That's bonkers.
Larissa Parson (12:36):
It's completely bonkers to me, because that is
not who I am. And you all knowit. Right? All of you all know
it. And I've been very clear,like, I love getting gifts, you
are amazing. You're wonderfulpeople, I swear to you, if I
find something that speaks tome, about you, I will get it for
you. But it's not my first lovelanguage. Yeah, I'll talk you
(12:56):
up, I'll spend time with you,I'll hug you, you know, the,
it's just not my strong suit tothink about gifts. And what I
found is really helpful in thisis instead of being like the
friend who doesn't say anythingabout that, and the sticks, and
just going like, Oh, thanks forthe gift, and then never, you
know, doing anything later, islike being able to say, I would
(13:20):
love to show up for you in a waythat works for you. But giving
gifts is really hard for me. SoI want you to know that I
appreciate you. And please letme know how I can show up for
you in a way that works for bothof us. And that feels fair to
both of us. And that leavespeople free to meet the need to
like, get a present somewhereelse. Or to say, hey, we'd
(13:41):
really like it if we could dothis thing together. Or even for
me to say proactively, like,Hey, I would love to spend some
time together just with you.
Because I appreciate you somuch! Like, Elizabeth, we still
have to go do that walk to Luna.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:55):
Yeah. And that's so funny, because I was
literally just thinking of that,right? Like, it's not like...I
do love to gifts. Gifts is mynumber one for sure. It's like
the way to my heart. Absolutely.
But that's not like your thing.
You know, when I think aboutyou, I think about things like
words of affirmation. And I alsothink about acts of service. I
don't know how...
Larissa Parson (14:14):
I'm totally an acts of service person.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:16):
We feel like those are two of those.
Yeah, and so it's like, we're,where's the middle that will
work for both of us. We bothlove spending time together
doing something and we are thosepeople for the other one too,
who like really can go like wetravel well together, we can
really go and do things welltogether. We both like to eat,
you know, so like these arethings that we can kind of do
(14:36):
together and we like fancycoffees, like fancy coffee, you
know, like all of these. Sothose things are like so it's
it's kind of like it's a gift,but it's a different sort of
gift, but it's a gift. I thinkwe can think about it. Yeah,
exactly. We can think about ittoo, in different ways.
Larissa Parson (14:50):
Yes, absolutely.
So yeah, being able to reframethose things for ourselves and
being able to talk about themwith our, with our friends with
our right people to say, hey, Iwant to make sure that you see
my love for you, I want to makesure that you're receiving it in
a way that you can receive it.
And I want tomake sure that, that your
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:04):
Yeah.
essential, that youressentiality-- that's not a
word! to my life is reallyclear.
Yeah. And it should be.
Larissa Parson (15:19):
And I'll just throw one more concrete example.
So I have a group chat that doesa monthly thing, we just started
doing this thing called witchesaggressively helping witches.
Witches, if you're listening, weget Biscuitville, and then we
descend on someone's house. Andthen we do, it's an act of
service, right? It's we do athing to help somebody with a
(15:40):
concrete problem that is too bigfor them to handle either alone
or with their partner or withkids around or whatever. And so
that's part of how we're showingour responsibility for each
other, and our love for eachother. And we're meeting needs
that were not going... that werenot getting met before. And we
(16:00):
get to spend time together andwe get to enjoy food together,
which is always a great way tolike cement community, because
we get to talk and catch upthen. And it's a lot easier for
us to as a group, who have a lotof young kids at home, to say,
I'm gonna go help somebody withsomething, than it is to go to
brunch. And now maybe that's awhole other podcast topic about
(16:20):
why is it easier to help peoplethan go to brunch.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:24):
Yeah, like, I'm that's.... I think
you've mentioned this. I don'tknow if it had that same, like,
cool name. But I feel likeyou've mentioned this to me
before. And I love it. And I'mfascinated with this piece,
which I do feel like, maybethat's, maybe that is the next
bonus episode. Like, why is it?
Why is that easier? Right? Idon't want to I don't want to
sidetrack us here. But that'ssuper interesting to me that
that's still kind of like, it'sit's interesting to me that that
(16:47):
is still interesting to me.
Larissa Parson (16:50):
Capitalism is the answer. Right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:54):
That's all. Yeah. The and. Yeah, right.
Yeah, I'm sure that's it. I'msure. That's it exactly. In a
nutshell. Um, what are we? Okay,so showing? Yeah, I am generally
someone who is like a checker inor have people you know, like to
send the random text. That islike, how's it going, especially
(17:17):
when it's someone who I don'tgenerally see very often because
they do have small children,they have a big job, they have a
inverse schedule than mine, or,you know, whatever. I'm also, I
also like to tell people thatand I love it when people tell
me this too. And you'reobviously you're one of those
people. But I love it whenpeople are like, you don't have
to get back to me anytime soon.
You know, like I I textedsomeone a really long time ago.
(17:41):
And she, and she had texted meback. And then I didn't respond
to for like a day and a half.
She's like, I don't know, if youforgot my text. And she's
someone who lives in adifferent, different area also
doesn't have children probablytravel, like lots of different
things that I was like, Oh, Idid. But I, yeah, I was at work
for a full day, could notrespond, dealing with a child,
(18:02):
doing this, then I had a group,you know, like, there was so
much. So I try to also make thatclear to my people, that you can
text me anytime. And you canalso take a very long time to
text back or, and or messageback or whatever. And that is,
there's things that I probablydo hold a grudge. Like, right.
But that is absolutely not oneof them. Right? Like I'm not
(18:23):
bothered I there's like threepeople who are sort of hanging
out there from like, January,like, I'd love to get together
and like you phoned me back whenyou can do it. And we will see
if we can make it happen. Like Ilove to give people that space.
Yeah. So that's kind of one ofthe ways that I try to show up
for people and kind of gift themthat.
Larissa Parson (18:41):
Yeah, I love that. I just had two people in
the last two days who texted mewith like a hey, that walk we
rescheduled two months ago. Canwe do that? Yeah. You know,
like, it happens, it justtakes... as long as you're open
to the fact that it takes timeit's fine. Also, all of my
people know that my phone is onsilent. So they can text me
literally anytime, day or night.
And it will, you know, like I'llget back to them when I get back
(19:01):
to them. And that's great. Yeah,yeah, that was great.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:06):
Um, I think I want to just to sort of
pause this for a second. Andjust to kind of get really clear
that we're talking about here asubset of our community, we're
talking about right people,right, so like, we're talking
about like, when we think aboutyour group, right, witches
helping witches, witchesaggressively helping witches. I
(19:27):
really want to make a wow, likesomething like really like WAHW,
yeah, exactly what like handswith the air or like a
broomstick logo or somethinglike I really want to like just
get right in there. Thatsticker. Yeah, you should make a
sticker on the back of your car.
There's only like, whatever fiveof you will still be like
waving. I think it's feels...
(19:47):
because that's not that's notsustainable for an entire
community. Right. That'ssustainable for your peeps that
you got the thing going on withand that's it, you know, so
communities are huge. We cannotshow up this way, aggressively
helping our community of otherwitches, any, like all the time,
we just don't have capacity forthat. That's impossible. So when
(20:10):
we think about how we show upfor people, and how we how we
show people that we are therefor them, we're really talking
about right people, we're nottalking about our entire
community, like our church folk,unless they are also one of your
right people.
Larissa Parson (20:22):
Yes, yes, not.
Not everyone gets the aggressivewitch treatment. And that's
fine. That is actuallyimportant. Because how can we
aggressively help other people?
If we are too busy aggressivelyhelping too many people?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:37):
We cannot.
Also not everyone is a witch. Sothen everyone gets to be a
witch, and you're in your coven.
So yeah, that's just notpossible. So it's like, I think
we need to ground us in reality,right? There's things that we
can actually change and do. Andthis is not one of those things.
We can't help everyone. We can'tdo this. We can't be this way,
show up this way for every one.
Larissa Parson (20:55):
No, no, we can't. And and then I think part
of that, like the there'selements of discernment that
goes into this, right, thatsometimes things feel off, or we
don't feel respected, we don'tfeel heard. We don't feel seen.
And that's like, you know, whatdo we do then?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:15):
Yeah.
Well, I think it starts out witha little bit of where we began,
the note that we kind of beganon which is like, we have a
responsibility to communicatethat, right, we have a
responsibility to communicatehow we want to be heard, how we
want to be respected. How wewant people to show up for us,
like no one is a mind reader.
No. And so that is on us. I wasthinking of this. I'm reading
(21:38):
this, I don't know whorecommended this to me, maybe
and someone recommended this,like Lazy Genius book, just that
was like, oh, that's kind ofthat's sort of catchy. I'm gonna
see about that. And one of herthings, she tells a story of
like, she is somehow in chargeof like a sister's birthday. And
every year they do this, likeshrimp cocktail thing for the
sister and and somehow she doessomething where it's just like,
(21:59):
oh my gosh, I forgot about theshrimp cocktail. Like it didn't
happen. And the sisters like Iactually don't like shrimp
cocktail at all. Oh, my God, andthe Lazy Genius woman cannot
possibly it's like what, likethis entire time. Like, you're
like, we're all adults here.
Like this has been going on fora while this shrimp cocktail
thing. And she finally says, Idon't like shrimp cocktail. And
it's like, ooh, but what adowner, right? Like we and I
(22:20):
think it was just it's like, ofcourse, you and I've talked
about this at length where it's,there's something that's part of
a family that sort of like, Idon't want to let people down or
it's assumed that it's going tobe okay. But I do think we need
to start with just our truth andmake sure we are communicating
that because we cannot expectpeople to just guess or somehow
know, even if they know usreally well.
Larissa Parson (22:45):
Right. And I think that that's been one of
the the harder things to, for mepersonally, as an adult, to
learn how to communicate and tolearn how to figure out because
we're not necessarily we don'tnecessarily get taught this
growing up, depending on our youknow, families of origin,
communities of origin, etc. Weoften and, like, culturally, if
(23:09):
you watch any, any show that hasany romance in it whatsoever. Or
really friendships even.
Everybody expects everybody tobe a mind reader. And they just,
just aren't. We're not mindreaders, we need to be
communicated with in order toknow what to do for other people
and how to do things for otherpeople. So yeah, I think that's
(23:29):
super, super important. And partof what helps me know some of my
people or my right people, isthat I feel okay, communicating.
Hey, you know, I actually don'treally like peanut butter
sandwiches. I love peanut buttersandwiches. I need a better
(23:52):
example. But
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:54):
you do.
Oh, I know what your Can I can Isay an example for you? Because
this took me a long time. And Istill default to it. Chocolate.
Larissa Parson (24:01):
Oh, yeah.
Because I'm allergic tochocolate. Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:05):
So there it is. Right. But like, I feel
like that sometimes, like, Idon't know, it's a chocolate
chip cookie, or it's like a youknow, whatever. So like..
Larissa Parson (24:11):
people are like, Hey, do you want to try this
thing, and I'm like, no, do youwant me to vomit on you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:18):
And you're like, everyone's like, No, and
that's when the conversationsfrom awkwardly ends. But I think
this is the thing with our rightpeople, right? When we don't
feel respected, or we don't feelheard, when things feel off.
Okay. Both of us are invested inthe relationship, if they are
your right people, there's thereciprocity that you just
mentioned, there's an equalbalance of power. So when you're
(24:38):
more or less on the same, youknow, footing with someone else,
it's often easier to saysomething in my in my
experience.
Larissa Parson (24:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's often easier to say something.
Or even if it's not easier tosay something, it's easier to
preface with, I have to say athing and I'm uncomfortable
saying it. Ah, you know?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:00):
Oh, that's so great. Everyone, like, let's
just say that again, because Ithink this is really Yeah, I
love that. Let's say it again.
And then I because I want to. Ijust thought of another example
too, but say that again. Okay.
Larissa Parson (25:12):
I think it's, I have to say a thing, and I am
uncomfortable saying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:16):
Yeah. So it's like you have to say the
thing and you also acknowledgethe feeling that you're having.
Yeah. And so Kendra and her,this is the other piece of this.
So Kendra and her family whensomething is like a miss or kind
of off or awkward or something.
She's like, I have a boiledshrimp thing. Oh, she, she
caught I don't know. I don'tknow where they're from. She
called it boiled shrimp. Butwhat she was describing was a
(25:36):
shrimp cocktail. So I so shesays, I have a boiled shrimp.
Right. But the thing is, it'sactually a shrimp cocktail.
Yeah, a little bit different. Ornot. But so that feels really,
it feels like I should multitaskand write that down.
Larissa Parson (25:54):
I can write it down for you. I'll lose a piece
of paper though. Because youknew me listen.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:00):
Maybe write it on this something. Oh,
yeah, that's dumb. I just wrotesomething. I can't even read it.
So that's not gonna work. Well,that's have you.
Larissa Parson (26:06):
It'll be in the transcript.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:10):
Yeah, yes.
What minute? Are we at least togo back and pull that out? Okay.
Um, like, tip, tip, practicaltip. So all of this, I think we
need to say and acknowledge hereis work. Yeah. Okay. But if the
relationship matters to us, andof course it does with our right
people, they're our rightpeople, then we need to say
something.
Larissa Parson (26:32):
Absolutely. And I, gosh, Elizabeth, and like,
bonus episode, bonus episode,bonus episode. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:41):
We're all over it.
Larissa Parson (26:42):
Yeah. I think that this is where it's
important to talk about the workthat is part of maintaining,
those circles and thoserelationships. Think that's kind
of like a work?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:58):
Yeah, I'm sorry. Yes, it is. I'm still
trying to write down that thing.
Because I have no sense of whattime it is. So whatever. I've
screwed that up several times.
I'm gonna start
Larissa Parson (27:06):
I have to say a thing, I'm uncomfortable saying
it (laughter), Elizabeth, it'syour turn to talk.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:12):
Shrimp cocktail. Okay? work. What work?
Right? We didn't, you're justsort of gave us this to Larissa,
like, don't we all just makefriends instantly. And
everything feels just like aKleenex commercial. Every moment
is tender and special. Andthere's no hysteria or drama or
drama, or trauma or drama forthe rest of your life. Like it's
just so sweet. And like sepiatoned. You know?
Larissa Parson (27:35):
Yeah, it's like that, you know, there's never
never any waves in the waters ofour friendships. No, that's not
how it happens. shaking head.
Ah, this is why love is anaction verb. Oh, because it's
about, like, we start out withmaking the effort to connect,
(27:55):
and we keep having to do that!It doesn't just stop once we're
connected, we keep having tomake the effort. Even, this is
gonna be a shock to some people.
Because they like to resent thisa lot. But even when it feels
like we're always the one whoreaches out, yeah, maybe that is
your role in this relationship.
Maybe you are the one who doesit. And if it really bothers
(28:18):
you, then maybe you need to havea conversation about it. Yeah.
So even if you're the one whoalways reaches out, and by that
same token, and this is this isthe bonus episode, yeah, we're
allowed to decide that somerelationships are no longer
meeting us where we need to bemet. And that's okay. But that's
work. It requires work tomaintain, and work to kind of
(28:41):
go, Oh, hey, maybe this is toomuch work. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:47):
And I think just playing off of that,
and in teasing it out a littlebit more. If we are the one in
the relationship, who's alwaysneeding who's always reaching
out, we feel like we're alwaysthe one who has to reach out
otherwise it doesn't happen,then this is a great opportunity
for us to say something right.
So this is again, it's a rightperson is a great opportunity
for us for them to saysomething, and it could it for
you to say something and itcould kind of boil down to oh, I
(29:07):
don't want to bother you becauseI'm only back at my phone late
at night. So I don't ever do XYand Z or I don't ever and then
it's like, oh, it's no bother myphone's always on silent or
whatever that thing is. Yeah. Soyeah. So I think this is this is
this is this is like this isalso an this is an opportunity.
Because sometimes there's apiece with our right people
where there's a misunderstandingor miscommunication. And if it
(29:29):
continues, then someone is notfeeling great if it's continuous
and someone's not feeling greatthat someone's not feeling great
needs to do something needs to,needs to take some sort of
action.
Larissa Parson (29:43):
Yes, yes, exactly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:45):
So just an aside to pick up on, where you,
so we'll, let's talk, we'll talkabout that in a future episode.
That idea of relationships thatare no longer meeting us where
we need to be, or no longerserving us in a way that feels
safe, healthy, important kind ofthing.
Larissa Parson (30:00):
Yeah, yeah. Um, let me think so finding people
to be friends with is work,showing up to support them as
work, taking the time to figureout by talking to them and
asking them, not just like mindreading, learning how your right
(30:21):
people want to be seen and heardis work. Is that have we covered
all the work? Also figuring outwhen it doesn't work is work.
Figuring out how to speak upwhen it doesn't work is work,
that it took a lot of work.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:35):
I don't, I can't think of anything else off
the top of my head that feelslike that covers a lot. Yeah, is
now a good time to ask what'swhere there's not work.
Larissa Parson (30:48):
Like, here's where it's unruffled. Here's
where it's easy. And it's like aKleenex commercial. So once we
have put in the hours, days,months, even years of
establishing a real connection,there are lots of things that
(31:09):
are easy. One of my friends ismy friend because our kids get
along. Except our kids don't getalong half the time. What's easy
is that we know this happens inphases, we know that this
happens over and over again. Sothen we are just like, well,
we're not missing out on ourfriend time, just because our
kids won't hang out together.
Let's make some dates, just thetwo of us to hang out. And so we
(31:32):
make intentional plans. Theydon't have to be super formal.
But it's kind of like, Hey, doyou have some time on Sunday?
Can I put you on my calendar?
Super, super, super simple. Whatelse is there, there's a deep
ease in being known. Like, samefriend, we spent a Friday night,
(31:55):
just walking around atSouthpoint. We didn't have to
make big plans because we justwanted to hang out with each
other. And we didn't want to beinside. We both wanted to be
outside walking around. So wejust went to the mall. And I was
one of the best friend datesever. Because it was just like,
we had things to look at andtalk about. And we had lots of
stuff to catch up on. We had youknow, some herbal tea from
Starbucks. It's just beingknown. And knowing that that is
(32:19):
a fine way to show up. I don'tneed you to come over to my
perfectly tidy house. It's okay,if you come in, I'm unloading
the dishwasher or picking upfolding laundry, whatever. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:32):
Yeah. So one thing I want to just pick up
on there is that is you're,you're, you're friends, because
your kids are friends, exceptwhen they're not. And you know
that this is a pattern. Andobviously you can only know this
is a pattern after spendingyears together. Right? Like,
right, like, there's the time Iknow you said that. But I also
want to just like draw that outa little bit more. So I think
(32:53):
that's like, wow, yeah, there'stime going on. And so you would
notice that, because you've hadthat you've invested that, that
that that time upfront so youcan notice the patterns?
Larissa Parson (33:04):
Wait, can we just can we say that again?
Elizabeth, can we just like Ijust want to say Louder, louder,
louder, over and over again, ittakes time. It takes time. It
takes time, so much time, somuch time,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:16):
lots of time. But we're also in the easy
part. You can also fast forwardto this section if you don't
want to hear about the work andsee how that works out for you.
Because Keep us posted. So whatyou're talking about here, that
little bit about having someonecome over and you're unloading
the dishwasher and just likecasual everyday simple, you
(33:36):
know, there's I love this easeand simply being known. Right,
you know, the of not needing toexplain or justify, you know, we
often and I just did this withyou last night and I was like
thinking about this thismorning. We often undercount our
needs, even with our rightpeople. Yeah, right. So I'm like
calling you and I'm like, Okay,can we pivot from this plan that
(33:58):
we have to do the walk? Ihaven't eaten, but I basically
will be okay. And you're like, Ihave to also use the restroom.
And so let's do this plan. I waslike, okay, good. Like and I, I
don't, there's there's other, Idefinitely would say it with
like, some folks like I have noteaten, but others I would
honestly, I would plow forwardto be perfectly transparent here
(34:19):
and kind of like, show me in allof my like, you know, real like
nitty gritty here, I would be, Iwould not have been that frank
with other people. Because it'sfor me, it's not like body stuff
that I'm gonna, like, I'm nottalking about, I'm not
uncomfortable telling you thatI'm hungry. It's more of like, I
don't want to inconvenience youfurther. I don't want to make
(34:41):
the plan more complicated. Iwant to stick to what I said and
this. I'm going to say this andthen I'm gonna just going to
stop it right there because Ican go into this. I don't. One
of my biggest biggest hang upsis I don't want to show up as
someone who looks flaky, like Ihave it all together. This is
one of my biggest Achilles heelsthat I've talked about so many
(35:03):
different times. But if I haveto change the plan, and now I
have to eat something, even ifI'm eating and walking, like,
that doesn't bother me, youknow, I, I possibly look like,
you know, so it's this. It'sjust something that we're just,
you know, there's ease and beingyourself and just being like,
Oh, this is it.
Larissa Parson (35:22):
Whatever. Yeah.
Yeah, so interesting. Um, isthat a thing that comes from
spending time in California? Iwonder? Which piece the flaky?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:37):
Not for me. I don't have time in
California.
Larissa Parson (35:39):
I think that's true. That's true. I'm like
that. Like, it's so interesting,because I feel I agree with you.
And I tend to also not want toseem flaky. And yeah, my entire
nature is very flaky. And I dothink I think that, you know,
there is for me, I've always hadto be pretty direct with folks
(36:01):
about this kind of stuff.
Because sometimes my body doesnot work. And that. And that's
always been the case, for aslong as I've been an adult. So
sometimes I've had to say, Ican't do a thing, my plans have
to change, I have a need another10 minutes, I need another
whatever. And so in some ways, Idon't worry so much about coming
(36:21):
off as flaky. I do, do I do hita bunch of internalized ableism?
Around, like, why can't I makeplans for nine o'clock in the
morning? Or why can't I? Youknow, do these things that I
just literally cannot docomfortably or or why is it so
uncomfortable going on this walkright now? You know, like? Yeah,
(36:43):
yeah, it is really what isuseful is being able to know
that I have people in my lifewhere I can just be really clear
and direct and not feel likethat's me coming off as flaky or
anything else. Any othernegative words that you
associate with that? Yeah. So toget back to the ease? Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (37:05):
Yeah. And I think there's a piece about
like being seen as less thanperfect, which of course I am,
right. And we all are, but withfolks other than our right
people and right relationships,we still we worry about, we're
seeing we've created again, Idon't want to over I don't want
to repeat myself too much. Butlike I've created work for
people, if I have to do XY andZ, and I'm screwing things up
(37:27):
somehow, so that that's, andyeah, I don't. Yeah. Let me just
stop. Let me just stop, you haveto say, Oh, no talk and say,
like, oh, you go.
Larissa Parson (37:39):
I mean, I think maybe the point that we're
trying to get at here is thatwith our right people, it's
easier for us to kind of hold onto the two thoughts. That I can
own these are things that I wantto be better at. And these are
(38:01):
things that I am not good at.
And, and that like I'm not a badperson, because there are things
I want to be better at. Doesthat make sense? Yeah. We talked
about this last night a bitabout, about feeling bad. And,
and so no, for example, to makeit concrete, I'm not a terrible
person, just because I have aterrible sense of time. And
like, I'm never, I'm eitherearly or late. I'm almost never
(38:25):
right on time to anything. AndI'm, but I'm a person, but I can
be early because I set upmultiple ways of making up for
my own time blindness. Like, Ijust, I, it's just how it is.
And that means I don't end upmissing things or being rude.
But my right people also knownever to make plans for me at an
(38:46):
exact moment when I need to besomewhere getting somebody out
of the rain. You know, like, weknow this, and it doesn't become
a she's always late, so I hateher situation. Because we figure
out ways that works for all ofus.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (39:01):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that
brings us to there's easesometimes in setting a boundary,
right? So I think sometimes itis easier to say out loud, what
doesn't work for you, when youfeel strongly about the
relationship, we both have astake in it. When we don't feel
like someone is just like gonnago strict or check out on us or
leave us or or use thatinformation against us somehow.
Or you don't feel safe, safeenough to share your feelings.
(39:24):
You know, like, I think this iswe even talked about, like a
month or so ago when we're like,this is a piece that's missing
from the boundary conversation.
And certainly a piece that Idon't think I've included in the
boundary conversation. Maybe ifI have it's not been strong
enough in my mind, but it's thatyou know, when we set a boundary
it needs to be have a stake inthe relationship. Right. And
(39:46):
those are totally your rightpeople. Those are totally right
people.
Larissa Parson (39:50):
Yeah. Yeah, um, when we sit I'm going to say
that again, when we set aboundary, it has to be with
people who have a stake in therelationship and When we set a
boundary, it makes things somuch easier because then we have
clarity. We don't have to wonderwe don't have to think about it
(40:10):
so much like, it's, it's not athere's not so many questions
running around in our mindsabout it. And then maybe this
is, you know, Elizabeth, I feellike maybe this is like a little
bit of me ruminating on anxiousattachment kinds of ways of
relating to people, but but Ithink that the boundaries are a
(40:31):
great way to ease that kind ofanxiety and to and to reassure
people who are avoidant that,you know, it's okay to share
your feelings here, because wehave this boundary in place
about whatever.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:43):
Yeah, yeah, that makes that makes
really good sense to me. Um, soI think the other thing with the
ease is that it really matters.
Why are we talking about this?
There's hard work in setting upmaintaining, investing in a
relationship and ease matters.
And the relationships matter,because life is really hard.
Yeah, life is really hard. It'shard for some of us more than
(41:05):
others of us for sure. I'msaying that as you know,
acknowledging my privilege righthere it my life is hard in
different ways. than someone whohas less privilege, less access,
less wealth, less, you know, allof these pieces. Life is hard
work. It's hard fighting acapitalist patriarchal white
supremacy, that pushes diet,culture and consumption
(41:28):
simultaneously, like consume butalso restrict consumption.
That's really hard. That isreally hard. So we do need ease.
We need more pockets of ease.
And our right people are arewhere we can get some of those
sweet soft places to land.
Larissa Parson (41:45):
Yes, and that's why that's why we do that's why
we do the work is that we needthese sweet soft places to land.
Ease ah, that when you when youwhen you said all of that, I was
like, right. My right people. Ilive this is like, this is one
(42:08):
of the things I'm most gratefulfor in life is that I live
surrounded by my right people somuch of the time. Yeah. But when
I stepped outside of thosecircles, I am always blown away
by how powerful the forces ofdiet culture, patriarchy,
(42:28):
racism, consumerism, like all ofthis shit. Like, it blows my
mind when I step away from thecircles and look at the things
that people just say casually.
Yeah, about other people'sbodies. In this world
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:41):
All day long.
Larissa Parson (42:42):
All day long.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:44):
In a high end, women's clothing boutique
all fucking day long. All daylong. The reason I only do it
two days a week. I love what Ido. And it is very hard to hear
women denigrate their bodies ona regular basis. Multiple hours
a day.
Larissa Parson (42:58):
hours. hours.
Yeah, hours.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:00):
Yeah.
Seven hours. Yeah. So yeah. Soyeah, that's absolutely,
absolutely.
Larissa Parson (43:06):
So in the spirit of...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:10):
Wrap us up, lady!
Larissa Parson (43:12):
...embracing having a body and all the
wonderful things that it can do.
What are we eating this week?
Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:19):
Oh my gosh. That's like a that's like
a Michael Hobbes and AubreyGordon segue, it's so strong.
Um, yeah. What are we eating?
What am I eating? Oh, I knowwhat I'm eating, which is really
lovely. I'm like, Snack Service
Larissa Parson (43:29):
Yeah, you uh, hi. I'm also not making any food
has been on a like a hit listwith me in the past couple of
weeks. So I ordered some sweetpotato, mac and cheese, which we
did not have last night becauseof the train debacle. And I have
plans. Oh my gosh, and I'meating something else. I'm going
to have plans. I have plans withmy friend Brittany. And we're
(43:53):
gonna go to Vimala's, I think.
I'm super excited. I haven'tbeen there in a really long
time. I know. I know. So I'vegot donut muffins. I've got
Vimala's, and I've got somesweet potato mac and cheese
happening this weekend. So somenice combos with things that I'm
actually not making any of. Soyay. Yay, me.
(44:17):
anytime soon. Okay, I'm gonnamake bacon for breakfast
tomorrow. I'm having burgers fordinner tonight.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:23):
Oh, did you have burgers a couple nights
ago or what? Wednesday or whatexactly like?
Larissa Parson (44:27):
I usually do Wednesday burgers
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:29):
Wednesday burgers. I know it doesn't.
Everyone knows this schedule.
This could be like a quiz foryour right people. Do you know
which night I do burgers. Theywill all get it I bet. But it
might be interesting, though.
Some of them will likeimmediatly know, but I bet non
food people are not going to,not going to be super invested
in it. Like I remember thatbecause that's like part of it
(44:50):
and also like, I eat so there'sthat.
Larissa Parson (44:54):
Yeah, people who aren't into eating in the way
that we are into eating like, Idon't know anybody who doesn't
appreciate food because thoseare not my right people. But But
I but I don't know people, Butthere are lots of my friends, my
close friends even who are notinto food the way that I am. To
food as an experience. Yes,yeah. Yeah, I don't I'm not sure
(45:16):
where I'm getting burgers fromtonight. Maybe only burger maybe
five guys not sure. But it'sgoing to be greasy and
delicious.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:24):
Have you been to Queen burger? I went up
Blackwell the other day and sawit there. And it's it's so it's
associated with Kingfisher, ormaybe I'm kind of confused on
that one. I didn't know I meantto ask you last night when we
talked about the burger thing.
Larissa Parson (45:39):
No, but it's going on my list. Now.
Blackwell. Easy to walk through.
Easy to walk to right there.
Over by the health departmentwhere I can go pick up some more
free COVID tests. Ish.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:53):
It's right next to the ballpark. Yeah,
Larissa Parson (45:55):
yes. So I can talk a little bit. You could
nobody could see the the gestureI just made but the long way
round.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:04):
Nobody can see that. Yes, you're right.
Okay. But okay. That's it. Yeah.
So great. Because the close us,keep closing us out because it's
doing you're going great here.
Larissa Parson (46:14):
well, if you'd like it to make it easier for us
to buy things like sweet potato,mac and cheese and burgers. Yes.
And you would like to supportour work here on the podcast.
Please write us a reviewwherever you listen to podcasts
that helps people find us andfind their wow and how of living
a life of curiosity, communityliberation and delicious food.
(46:39):
On the food. I must be hungry.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:41):
I know what you're hungry. We're
recording this over lunch. Sothis is what happens sometimes.
Yes. In the interim, follow usat Wondermine podcast on
Instagram. Thanks again. We'reso delighted you've been with
us.
Larissa Parson (46:54):
Thanks for listening everyone.
Welcome to Wondermine, Season Three. I'm
Larissa Parson, I'm a bodyliberationist, a writer and
podcaster a mom to twins. And Iam so glad that Ted Lasso is
back on the air. Is that evenwhat we call it? Like, is back
to streaming? I feel like adinosaur, Elizabeth. Like, oh my
gosh, I don't often feel likewow, there's a generational
(00:23):
problem here.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:25):
Or certainly like, I look to you
for these kinds of, like, popculture in the know kind of
terms and, and, and words, andso if you don't know that
clearly, I am no, I amabsolutely no help here.
Larissa Parson (00:36):
I should ask my children!
Elizabeth M. Johnson (00:38):
Ask the kids! Ask the kids. And I'm
Elizabeth M. Johnson. I'm awriter, reader, parent and
eater, and I posted to mysubstack this week. More
regularly, you can find me onTwitter and on Instagram at
EMJwriting.
Larissa Parson (00:54):
And if you are new here, Hello. We're the duo
behind this feminist podcastthat looks at the wow and the
how of living a life rooted incuriosity, community and
liberation. If you've ever feltlike something was missing, or
you were missing something,Wondermine is the podcast for
you.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:12):
But first, what are we reading? We start
every episode with what we'rereading and we end with what
we're eating. Larissa, want togo first?
Larissa Parson (01:20):
Okay, so this week, I am reading smutty smut
smut. Okay. And it has been awhile since I have read some
smutty smut.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:27):
Smutty smut as opposed to like, just
plain like lowercase smutwithout any kind of adjectives
around it just smut, as is,almost?
Larissa Parson (01:35):
Yes. Sometimes I'll read just like a romance
novel with a little smut in it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (01:39):
Okay, no, this is smutty smut, smut.
Larissa Parson (01:41):
This is smutty smut, smut.I am almost finished
reading Praise by Sara Cate. AndI'm mostly reading it because my
friend who said no, you shouldread it tells me that the rest
of the books are really good.
Like you can see the authorbecoming a better author over
the course of the series. That'sme. Yeah. And it's got a great
depiction of kind of BDSM andkink stuff, but the female main
(02:09):
character is she's very young.
She's 21. And so I get a littlebit tired of that in my books.
Like I really am, like, you'reso young. But I'm really
enjoying it nonetheless. Whatabout you, Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:32):
Yeah, so this is this is book one, right?
Just to be clear, this is one ina series.
Larissa Parson (02:38):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:38):
Praise.
Larissa Parson (02:39):
Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (02:41):
Okay, gotcha. Okay. I am in a, as we
know, I'm in a fiction rut, butI've got some coming. So I'm
excited to start that. But inthe meantime, I have been
sharing some poetry from KateBaer's new book, "And Yet," in
my Instagram story, and I'vementioned it in my substack
piece as well. Gosh, it is justbeautiful. It's fiery, but also
(03:05):
pretty commonplace. It's poemsabout mothering, what it means
to be a woman. Poems about smalljoys. So all of us little p
pleasures folks will appreciatethat. Huge heartaches. Yes,
exactly. Baer is a poet forfolks who don't like or don't
get poetry. So like, if you'rethat person who's like, I could
never read poetry or that feelsreally inaccessible to me, you
(03:27):
will like her, you will likeher. If you are a Billy Collins
fan, which I am. You will likeher if you're a Mary Oliver fan,
which I also am, and of course,like a Maggie Nelson. So poetry
is where I'm at right now.
Larissa Parson (03:37):
Nice. That's awesome. Um, for poetry folks.
You know, I'm a back and forthpoetry person. Yes. And, like, I
like poetry, and I lovedteaching poetry. But sometimes
I'm like, not today.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (03:51):
Yeah, it's kind of a funny thing to get
into because you read one ortwo, and then you're like, Okay,
and that's done now. I put itdown and I'm done. You don't
read through a book of poetry,for example. So I think it's
nice for small bites, too.
Larissa Parson (04:07):
Yes, I agree. I agree. It's nice. It's nice to
kind of have around in yourhouse so you can pick it up and
look. Anyway. Alright, so movingon. Today, we have an entire
episode devoted to the idea offriendlove. That's all one word,
(04:28):
friends. In case you missedDecember's bonus episode for
patrons, we'll do a little bitof a recap. So the idea of
friendlove comes from an episodefrom the brown sisters' podcast,
'how to survive the end of theworld'. And here's a quote from
the podcast that we reallyresonated with us. And I think
(04:50):
this is adrienne, right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (04:53):
That's my recollection. Yes, I think.
Larissa Parson (04:56):
Loving friendships provide us with a
space to experience the joy ofcommunity in a relationship
where we learn to process allour issues, to cope with
differences and conflict whilestaying connected.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (05:14):
So while we explore friendlove a little
bit in that bonus episode, wethought we really need to go a
little bit further under thatspecific piece of our community
umbrella for this season. Sowe're looking at ideas that we
have not touched on yet. Sothat's kind of what we're going
to be what we're going to bestarting with here.
Larissa Parson (05:32):
Right. So to do a little quick recap on kind of
where we were, as we dive intothis topic. You can think of
yourself - y'all can't see me,I'm gesturing wildly - in the
middle of the circle. And thenthere are several circles
radiating out from you. Andthose circles contain different
(05:56):
friends or different people. Sowe use friend as this like
umbrella term for people in ourlives who we know. The friend
who knows plumbing and householdstuff that you can call on, or
the brunch or dinner outfriends, a circle of people you
call when things suck, the bookclub friends, my smut club
(06:19):
friends, circle for the folkswho call up when you're in their
city, a circle for people whoare your music buddies, or your
knitting buddies, et cetera, etcetera.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (06:31):
Yeah. So they are fun people. Oh, and or
they can also be people who areavailable when things feel less
than easy.
For me, it makes me think thatthere's just no one person who
Larissa Parson (06:40):
Yes, and I want to make clear that with these
circles, it's not just thatthere are different circles for
different people in your lives.,but they also have varying
levels. So your friendlove hasvarying levels of commitment,
can be all of these things forus.
connection, depth, andintensity. And the quality of
this, really, theserelationships depend a lot on
(07:01):
circumstances, location, andeven life stages. So, it's not
Yeah, exactly. So just like yourromantic partner, or partners
just about like, my knittingbuddies, who are my buddies from
seventh grade for the rest of mylife. They might be my knitting
buddies for a little while. Sowhat does that make you think of
Elizabeth?
(07:32):
can't possibly meet all of yourneeds, neither can your friends.
But your whole community, all ofthose circles taken together
probably can. I mean, assuming,of course, that you've done the
work of figuring out what needsother people can meet and what
needs you need to meet foryourself.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (07:51):
Yeah, and that's the end of the sentence,
but it feels like a reallyimportant piece to sort of seize
on here. No one is going to meetall of our needs. No one can
ever meet any of our needs,unless we have done some of the
work on ourselves, figuring outhow we need other people to show
(08:12):
up for us, where we can meetother people and what we need to
do for ourselves.
Larissa Parson (08:17):
Yeah, exactly.
And I think relates to this onethought that adrienne says that
I wanted to pick up on, which isthat, I never am alone. I'm
always in a community thatintimately knows and understands
me, helps me understand myself.
(08:37):
So that's going back to thatwhole, like, I need to know what
I need and who I care for sodeeply that it's a joyful
responsibility with thesepeople.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (08:50):
I'm listening to you say this. And
it's also like alone, like alonein the world. Not like she has
never physically without otherpeople, like alone in the world,
like doing this doing this worldtogether. But here, again,
responsibility, I want to reallywant to talk about that a little
bit. Because there's this is notjust like all ears and like blue
(09:11):
birds chirping in thebackground. So let's talk about
that. Let's make sure that we'reall on the same page, like what
does that look like or mean toyou, Larissa, this piece about
responsibility?
Larissa Parson (09:19):
So, responsibility. It means not
just that my friends are therefor me. They're all there when I
have problems, and they help mesolve them. It's that I'm also
responsible for them. Back whenwe talked about right people in
season one, one of the things wetalked about is that it's a
(09:41):
reciprocal relationship. Itdoesn't mean that we're all
sitting there with ledger'sgoing, Okay, well, Carrie texted
me last time about gettingtogether so it's my turn or they
brought me dinner, so I need totake them dessert or dinner or
whatever. You know, it's reallythat over time, there is a clear
sense of reciprocity as we areable to provide it. So sometimes
(10:03):
it looks like leaning a lot onyour friends for support. And
other times it looks like beingthe person who sets up the meal
train. And I've been in thatrole in the last couple of
years. I set up the meal trainfor my friend with cancer, and
then she set up the meal trainfor me when I had surgery. It
goes back and forth. And thisbrings me to another point,
(10:26):
which is that part of thatresponsibility and how we engage
with our responsibility isreally seeing and acknowledging
our friends for who they arejust as they are. And I just
want to add that that means thatwe make space and hold space for
what we're actually able to doin terms of reciprocity. So it
(10:48):
may not look like doing theexact same thing for somebody
else. It may be that I do a lotmore schlepping of a kid because
I'm fine with driving, and myfriend is not. And that's fine.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:00):
Yeah. I like these a lot. These are
really specific examples. It'slike meal train, meal train. And
or I'm the one who can do thispiece of it, because this is the
piece that I don't mind. And myfriend does this piece, which
really feels a little bit bettersuited towards her time or
schedule or her needs orwhatever. I feel like I'm asking
(11:24):
a lot of questions here. Whatabout engaging or how do we like
to be seen? You know, so how dowe show the people in our
circles that we're there forthem? So it's kind of a two-fold
question. How do we like to beseen and engaged with? And or
(11:44):
how do we show those people inthose circles that we have that
we are there for them? What doesthat look like, do we think? I
mean, I think I've got someideas but what do you think that
looks like?
Larissa Parson (11:53):
Well, I'm curious about your ideas now,
Elizabeth,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (11:57):
I asked you first. So you get to go.
Larissa Parson (12:03):
There are a bunch of ways that we do this.
But one of the things that Ihave been finding helpful is
being really direct with myright people, with my community,
with my circles, about how Ishow up for them best, and how I
like to be shown up for. So thisgoes back to that whole, like,
(12:24):
knowing what you need and askingfor it. Yeah, I am not going to
be the person--despite the factthat like half of my closest
friends are gift people--
Elizabeth M. Johnson (12:35):
That's bonkers.
Larissa Parson (12:36):
It's completely bonkers to me, because that is
not who I am. And you all knowit. Right? All of you all know
it. And I've been very clear,like, I love getting gifts, you
are amazing. You're wonderfulpeople, I swear to you, if I
find something that speaks tome, about you, I will get it for
you. But it's not my first lovelanguage. Yeah, I'll talk you
(12:56):
up, I'll spend time with you,I'll hug you, you know, the,
it's just not my strong suit tothink about gifts. And what I
found is really helpful in thisis instead of being like the
friend who doesn't say anythingabout that, and the sticks, and
just going like, Oh, thanks forthe gift, and then never, you
know, doing anything later, islike being able to say, I would
(13:20):
love to show up for you in a waythat works for you. But giving
gifts is really hard for me. SoI want you to know that I
appreciate you. And please letme know how I can show up for
you in a way that works for bothof us. And that feels fair to
both of us. And that leavespeople free to meet the need to
like, get a present somewhereelse. Or to say, hey, we'd
(13:41):
really like it if we could dothis thing together. Or even for
me to say proactively, like,Hey, I would love to spend some
time together just with you.
Because I appreciate you somuch! Like, Elizabeth, we still
have to go do that walk to Luna.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (13:55):
Yeah. And that's so funny, because I was
literally just thinking of that,right? Like, it's not like...I
do love to gifts. Gifts is mynumber one for sure. It's like
the way to my heart. Absolutely.
But that's not like your thing.
You know, when I think aboutyou, I think about things like
words of affirmation. And I alsothink about acts of service. I
don't know how...
Larissa Parson (14:14):
I'm totally an acts of service person.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (14:16):
We feel like those are two of those.
Yeah, and so it's like, we're,where's the middle that will
work for both of us. We bothlove spending time together
doing something and we are thosepeople for the other one too,
who like really can go like wetravel well together, we can
really go and do things welltogether. We both like to eat,
you know, so like these arethings that we can kind of do
(14:36):
together and we like fancycoffees, like fancy coffee, you
know, like all of these. Sothose things are like so it's
it's kind of like it's a gift,but it's a different sort of
gift, but it's a gift. I thinkwe can think about it. Yeah,
exactly. We can think about ittoo, in different ways.
Larissa Parson (14:50):
Yes, absolutely.
So yeah, being able to reframethose things for ourselves and
being able to talk about themwith our, with our friends with
our right people to say, hey, Iwant to make sure that you see
my love for you, I want to makesure that you're receiving it in
a way that you can receive it.
And I want tomake sure that, that your
Elizabeth M. Johnson (15:04):
Yeah.
essential, that youressentiality-- that's not a
word! to my life is reallyclear.
Yeah. And it should be.
Larissa Parson (15:19):
And I'll just throw one more concrete example.
So I have a group chat that doesa monthly thing, we just started
doing this thing called witchesaggressively helping witches.
Witches, if you're listening, weget Biscuitville, and then we
descend on someone's house. Andthen we do, it's an act of
service, right? It's we do athing to help somebody with a
(15:40):
concrete problem that is too bigfor them to handle either alone
or with their partner or withkids around or whatever. And so
that's part of how we're showingour responsibility for each
other, and our love for eachother. And we're meeting needs
that were not going... that werenot getting met before. And we
(16:00):
get to spend time together andwe get to enjoy food together,
which is always a great way tolike cement community, because
we get to talk and catch upthen. And it's a lot easier for
us to as a group, who have a lotof young kids at home, to say,
I'm gonna go help somebody withsomething, than it is to go to
brunch. And now maybe that's awhole other podcast topic about
(16:20):
why is it easier to help peoplethan go to brunch.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:24):
Yeah, like, I'm that's.... I think
you've mentioned this. I don'tknow if it had that same, like,
cool name. But I feel likeyou've mentioned this to me
before. And I love it. And I'mfascinated with this piece,
which I do feel like, maybethat's, maybe that is the next
bonus episode. Like, why is it?
Why is that easier? Right? Idon't want to I don't want to
sidetrack us here. But that'ssuper interesting to me that
that's still kind of like, it'sit's interesting to me that that
(16:47):
is still interesting to me.
Larissa Parson (16:50):
Capitalism is the answer. Right?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (16:54):
That's all. Yeah. The and. Yeah, right.
Yeah, I'm sure that's it. I'msure. That's it exactly. In a
nutshell. Um, what are we? Okay,so showing? Yeah, I am generally
someone who is like a checker inor have people you know, like to
send the random text. That islike, how's it going, especially
(17:17):
when it's someone who I don'tgenerally see very often because
they do have small children,they have a big job, they have a
inverse schedule than mine, or,you know, whatever. I'm also, I
also like to tell people thatand I love it when people tell
me this too. And you'reobviously you're one of those
people. But I love it whenpeople are like, you don't have
to get back to me anytime soon.
You know, like I I textedsomeone a really long time ago.
(17:41):
And she, and she had texted meback. And then I didn't respond
to for like a day and a half.
She's like, I don't know, if youforgot my text. And she's
someone who lives in adifferent, different area also
doesn't have children probablytravel, like lots of different
things that I was like, Oh, Idid. But I, yeah, I was at work
for a full day, could notrespond, dealing with a child,
(18:02):
doing this, then I had a group,you know, like, there was so
much. So I try to also make thatclear to my people, that you can
text me anytime. And you canalso take a very long time to
text back or, and or messageback or whatever. And that is,
there's things that I probablydo hold a grudge. Like, right.
But that is absolutely not oneof them. Right? Like I'm not
(18:23):
bothered I there's like threepeople who are sort of hanging
out there from like, January,like, I'd love to get together
and like you phoned me back whenyou can do it. And we will see
if we can make it happen. Like Ilove to give people that space.
Yeah. So that's kind of one ofthe ways that I try to show up
for people and kind of gift themthat.
Larissa Parson (18:41):
Yeah, I love that. I just had two people in
the last two days who texted mewith like a hey, that walk we
rescheduled two months ago. Canwe do that? Yeah. You know,
like, it happens, it justtakes... as long as you're open
to the fact that it takes timeit's fine. Also, all of my
people know that my phone is onsilent. So they can text me
literally anytime, day or night.
And it will, you know, like I'llget back to them when I get back
(19:01):
to them. And that's great. Yeah,yeah, that was great.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (19:06):
Um, I think I want to just to sort of
pause this for a second. Andjust to kind of get really clear
that we're talking about here asubset of our community, we're
talking about right people,right, so like, we're talking
about like, when we think aboutyour group, right, witches
helping witches, witchesaggressively helping witches. I
(19:27):
really want to make a wow, likesomething like really like WAHW,
yeah, exactly what like handswith the air or like a
broomstick logo or somethinglike I really want to like just
get right in there. Thatsticker. Yeah, you should make a
sticker on the back of your car.
There's only like, whatever fiveof you will still be like
waving. I think it's feels...
(19:47):
because that's not that's notsustainable for an entire
community. Right. That'ssustainable for your peeps that
you got the thing going on withand that's it, you know, so
communities are huge. We cannotshow up this way, aggressively
helping our community of otherwitches, any, like all the time,
we just don't have capacity forthat. That's impossible. So when
(20:10):
we think about how we show upfor people, and how we how we
show people that we are therefor them, we're really talking
about right people, we're nottalking about our entire
community, like our church folk,unless they are also one of your
right people.
Larissa Parson (20:22):
Yes, yes, not.
Not everyone gets the aggressivewitch treatment. And that's
fine. That is actuallyimportant. Because how can we
aggressively help other people?
If we are too busy aggressivelyhelping too many people?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (20:37):
We cannot.
Also not everyone is a witch. Sothen everyone gets to be a
witch, and you're in your coven.
So yeah, that's just notpossible. So it's like, I think
we need to ground us in reality,right? There's things that we
can actually change and do. Andthis is not one of those things.
We can't help everyone. We can'tdo this. We can't be this way,
show up this way for every one.
Larissa Parson (20:55):
No, no, we can't. And and then I think part
of that, like the there'selements of discernment that
goes into this, right, thatsometimes things feel off, or we
don't feel respected, we don'tfeel heard. We don't feel seen.
And that's like, you know, whatdo we do then?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (21:15):
Yeah.
Well, I think it starts out witha little bit of where we began,
the note that we kind of beganon which is like, we have a
responsibility to communicatethat, right, we have a
responsibility to communicatehow we want to be heard, how we
want to be respected. How wewant people to show up for us,
like no one is a mind reader.
No. And so that is on us. I wasthinking of this. I'm reading
(21:38):
this, I don't know whorecommended this to me, maybe
and someone recommended this,like Lazy Genius book, just that
was like, oh, that's kind ofthat's sort of catchy. I'm gonna
see about that. And one of herthings, she tells a story of
like, she is somehow in chargeof like a sister's birthday. And
every year they do this, likeshrimp cocktail thing for the
sister and and somehow she doessomething where it's just like,
(21:59):
oh my gosh, I forgot about theshrimp cocktail. Like it didn't
happen. And the sisters like Iactually don't like shrimp
cocktail at all. Oh, my God, andthe Lazy Genius woman cannot
possibly it's like what, likethis entire time. Like, you're
like, we're all adults here.
Like this has been going on fora while this shrimp cocktail
thing. And she finally says, Idon't like shrimp cocktail. And
it's like, ooh, but what adowner, right? Like we and I
(22:20):
think it was just it's like, ofcourse, you and I've talked
about this at length where it's,there's something that's part of
a family that sort of like, Idon't want to let people down or
it's assumed that it's going tobe okay. But I do think we need
to start with just our truth andmake sure we are communicating
that because we cannot expectpeople to just guess or somehow
know, even if they know usreally well.
Larissa Parson (22:45):
Right. And I think that that's been one of
the the harder things to, for mepersonally, as an adult, to
learn how to communicate and tolearn how to figure out because
we're not necessarily we don'tnecessarily get taught this
growing up, depending on our youknow, families of origin,
communities of origin, etc. Weoften and, like, culturally, if
(23:09):
you watch any, any show that hasany romance in it whatsoever. Or
really friendships even.
Everybody expects everybody tobe a mind reader. And they just,
just aren't. We're not mindreaders, we need to be
communicated with in order toknow what to do for other people
and how to do things for otherpeople. So yeah, I think that's
(23:29):
super, super important. And partof what helps me know some of my
people or my right people, isthat I feel okay, communicating.
Hey, you know, I actually don'treally like peanut butter
sandwiches. I love peanut buttersandwiches. I need a better
(23:52):
example. But
Elizabeth M. Johnson (23:54):
you do.
Oh, I know what your Can I can Isay an example for you? Because
this took me a long time. And Istill default to it. Chocolate.
Larissa Parson (24:01):
Oh, yeah.
Because I'm allergic tochocolate. Right.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:05):
So there it is. Right. But like, I feel
like that sometimes, like, Idon't know, it's a chocolate
chip cookie, or it's like a youknow, whatever. So like..
Larissa Parson (24:11):
people are like, Hey, do you want to try this
thing, and I'm like, no, do youwant me to vomit on you?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (24:18):
And you're like, everyone's like, No, and
that's when the conversationsfrom awkwardly ends. But I think
this is the thing with our rightpeople, right? When we don't
feel respected, or we don't feelheard, when things feel off.
Okay. Both of us are invested inthe relationship, if they are
your right people, there's thereciprocity that you just
mentioned, there's an equalbalance of power. So when you're
(24:38):
more or less on the same, youknow, footing with someone else,
it's often easier to saysomething in my in my
experience.
Larissa Parson (24:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's often easier to say something.
Or even if it's not easier tosay something, it's easier to
preface with, I have to say athing and I'm uncomfortable
saying it. Ah, you know?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:00):
Oh, that's so great. Everyone, like, let's
just say that again, because Ithink this is really Yeah, I
love that. Let's say it again.
And then I because I want to. Ijust thought of another example
too, but say that again. Okay.
Larissa Parson (25:12):
I think it's, I have to say a thing, and I am
uncomfortable saying it.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (25:16):
Yeah. So it's like you have to say the
thing and you also acknowledgethe feeling that you're having.
Yeah. And so Kendra and her,this is the other piece of this.
So Kendra and her family whensomething is like a miss or kind
of off or awkward or something.
She's like, I have a boiledshrimp thing. Oh, she, she
caught I don't know. I don'tknow where they're from. She
called it boiled shrimp. Butwhat she was describing was a
(25:36):
shrimp cocktail. So I so shesays, I have a boiled shrimp.
Right. But the thing is, it'sactually a shrimp cocktail.
Yeah, a little bit different. Ornot. But so that feels really,
it feels like I should multitaskand write that down.
Larissa Parson (25:54):
I can write it down for you. I'll lose a piece
of paper though. Because youknew me listen.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:00):
Maybe write it on this something. Oh,
yeah, that's dumb. I just wrotesomething. I can't even read it.
So that's not gonna work. Well,that's have you.
Larissa Parson (26:06):
It'll be in the transcript.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:10):
Yeah, yes.
What minute? Are we at least togo back and pull that out? Okay.
Um, like, tip, tip, practicaltip. So all of this, I think we
need to say and acknowledge hereis work. Yeah. Okay. But if the
relationship matters to us, andof course it does with our right
people, they're our rightpeople, then we need to say
something.
Larissa Parson (26:32):
Absolutely. And I, gosh, Elizabeth, and like,
bonus episode, bonus episode,bonus episode. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:41):
We're all over it.
Larissa Parson (26:42):
Yeah. I think that this is where it's
important to talk about the workthat is part of maintaining,
those circles and thoserelationships. Think that's kind
of like a work?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (26:58):
Yeah, I'm sorry. Yes, it is. I'm still
trying to write down that thing.
Because I have no sense of whattime it is. So whatever. I've
screwed that up several times.
I'm gonna start
Larissa Parson (27:06):
I have to say a thing, I'm uncomfortable saying
it (laughter), Elizabeth, it'syour turn to talk.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (27:12):
Shrimp cocktail. Okay? work. What work?
Right? We didn't, you're justsort of gave us this to Larissa,
like, don't we all just makefriends instantly. And
everything feels just like aKleenex commercial. Every moment
is tender and special. Andthere's no hysteria or drama or
drama, or trauma or drama forthe rest of your life. Like it's
just so sweet. And like sepiatoned. You know?
Larissa Parson (27:35):
Yeah, it's like that, you know, there's never
never any waves in the waters ofour friendships. No, that's not
how it happens. shaking head.
Ah, this is why love is anaction verb. Oh, because it's
about, like, we start out withmaking the effort to connect,
(27:55):
and we keep having to do that!It doesn't just stop once we're
connected, we keep having tomake the effort. Even, this is
gonna be a shock to some people.
Because they like to resent thisa lot. But even when it feels
like we're always the one whoreaches out, yeah, maybe that is
your role in this relationship.
Maybe you are the one who doesit. And if it really bothers
(28:18):
you, then maybe you need to havea conversation about it. Yeah.
So even if you're the one whoalways reaches out, and by that
same token, and this is this isthe bonus episode, yeah, we're
allowed to decide that somerelationships are no longer
meeting us where we need to bemet. And that's okay. But that's
work. It requires work tomaintain, and work to kind of
(28:41):
go, Oh, hey, maybe this is toomuch work. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (28:47):
And I think just playing off of that,
and in teasing it out a littlebit more. If we are the one in
the relationship, who's alwaysneeding who's always reaching
out, we feel like we're alwaysthe one who has to reach out
otherwise it doesn't happen,then this is a great opportunity
for us to say something right.
So this is again, it's a rightperson is a great opportunity
for us for them to saysomething, and it could it for
you to say something and itcould kind of boil down to oh, I
(29:07):
don't want to bother you becauseI'm only back at my phone late
at night. So I don't ever do XYand Z or I don't ever and then
it's like, oh, it's no bother myphone's always on silent or
whatever that thing is. Yeah. Soyeah. So I think this is this is
this is this is like this isalso an this is an opportunity.
Because sometimes there's apiece with our right people
where there's a misunderstandingor miscommunication. And if it
(29:29):
continues, then someone is notfeeling great if it's continuous
and someone's not feeling greatthat someone's not feeling great
needs to do something needs to,needs to take some sort of
action.
Larissa Parson (29:43):
Yes, yes, exactly.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (29:45):
So just an aside to pick up on, where you,
so we'll, let's talk, we'll talkabout that in a future episode.
That idea of relationships thatare no longer meeting us where
we need to be, or no longerserving us in a way that feels
safe, healthy, important kind ofthing.
Larissa Parson (30:00):
Yeah, yeah. Um, let me think so finding people
to be friends with is work,showing up to support them as
work, taking the time to figureout by talking to them and
asking them, not just like mindreading, learning how your right
(30:21):
people want to be seen and heardis work. Is that have we covered
all the work? Also figuring outwhen it doesn't work is work.
Figuring out how to speak upwhen it doesn't work is work,
that it took a lot of work.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (30:35):
I don't, I can't think of anything else off
the top of my head that feelslike that covers a lot. Yeah, is
now a good time to ask what'swhere there's not work.
Larissa Parson (30:48):
Like, here's where it's unruffled. Here's
where it's easy. And it's like aKleenex commercial. So once we
have put in the hours, days,months, even years of
establishing a real connection,there are lots of things that
(31:09):
are easy. One of my friends ismy friend because our kids get
along. Except our kids don't getalong half the time. What's easy
is that we know this happens inphases, we know that this
happens over and over again. Sothen we are just like, well,
we're not missing out on ourfriend time, just because our
kids won't hang out together.
Let's make some dates, just thetwo of us to hang out. And so we
(31:32):
make intentional plans. Theydon't have to be super formal.
But it's kind of like, Hey, doyou have some time on Sunday?
Can I put you on my calendar?
Super, super, super simple. Whatelse is there, there's a deep
ease in being known. Like, samefriend, we spent a Friday night,
(31:55):
just walking around atSouthpoint. We didn't have to
make big plans because we justwanted to hang out with each
other. And we didn't want to beinside. We both wanted to be
outside walking around. So wejust went to the mall. And I was
one of the best friend datesever. Because it was just like,
we had things to look at andtalk about. And we had lots of
stuff to catch up on. We had youknow, some herbal tea from
Starbucks. It's just beingknown. And knowing that that is
(32:19):
a fine way to show up. I don'tneed you to come over to my
perfectly tidy house. It's okay,if you come in, I'm unloading
the dishwasher or picking upfolding laundry, whatever. Yeah.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (32:32):
Yeah. So one thing I want to just pick up
on there is that is you're,you're, you're friends, because
your kids are friends, exceptwhen they're not. And you know
that this is a pattern. Andobviously you can only know this
is a pattern after spendingyears together. Right? Like,
right, like, there's the time Iknow you said that. But I also
want to just like draw that outa little bit more. So I think
(32:53):
that's like, wow, yeah, there'stime going on. And so you would
notice that, because you've hadthat you've invested that, that
that that time upfront so youcan notice the patterns?
Larissa Parson (33:04):
Wait, can we just can we say that again?
Elizabeth, can we just like Ijust want to say Louder, louder,
louder, over and over again, ittakes time. It takes time. It
takes time, so much time, somuch time,
Elizabeth M. Johnson (33:16):
lots of time. But we're also in the easy
part. You can also fast forwardto this section if you don't
want to hear about the work andsee how that works out for you.
Because Keep us posted. So whatyou're talking about here, that
little bit about having someonecome over and you're unloading
the dishwasher and just likecasual everyday simple, you
(33:36):
know, there's I love this easeand simply being known. Right,
you know, the of not needing toexplain or justify, you know, we
often and I just did this withyou last night and I was like
thinking about this thismorning. We often undercount our
needs, even with our rightpeople. Yeah, right. So I'm like
calling you and I'm like, Okay,can we pivot from this plan that
(33:58):
we have to do the walk? Ihaven't eaten, but I basically
will be okay. And you're like, Ihave to also use the restroom.
And so let's do this plan. I waslike, okay, good. Like and I, I
don't, there's there's other, Idefinitely would say it with
like, some folks like I have noteaten, but others I would
honestly, I would plow forwardto be perfectly transparent here
(34:19):
and kind of like, show me in allof my like, you know, real like
nitty gritty here, I would be, Iwould not have been that frank
with other people. Because it'sfor me, it's not like body stuff
that I'm gonna, like, I'm nottalking about, I'm not
uncomfortable telling you thatI'm hungry. It's more of like, I
don't want to inconvenience youfurther. I don't want to make
(34:41):
the plan more complicated. Iwant to stick to what I said and
this. I'm going to say this andthen I'm gonna just going to
stop it right there because Ican go into this. I don't. One
of my biggest biggest hang upsis I don't want to show up as
someone who looks flaky, like Ihave it all together. This is
one of my biggest Achilles heelsthat I've talked about so many
(35:03):
different times. But if I haveto change the plan, and now I
have to eat something, even ifI'm eating and walking, like,
that doesn't bother me, youknow, I, I possibly look like,
you know, so it's this. It'sjust something that we're just,
you know, there's ease and beingyourself and just being like,
Oh, this is it.
Larissa Parson (35:22):
Whatever. Yeah.
Yeah, so interesting. Um, isthat a thing that comes from
spending time in California? Iwonder? Which piece the flaky?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (35:37):
Not for me. I don't have time in
California.
Larissa Parson (35:39):
I think that's true. That's true. I'm like
that. Like, it's so interesting,because I feel I agree with you.
And I tend to also not want toseem flaky. And yeah, my entire
nature is very flaky. And I dothink I think that, you know,
there is for me, I've always hadto be pretty direct with folks
(36:01):
about this kind of stuff.
Because sometimes my body doesnot work. And that. And that's
always been the case, for aslong as I've been an adult. So
sometimes I've had to say, Ican't do a thing, my plans have
to change, I have a need another10 minutes, I need another
whatever. And so in some ways, Idon't worry so much about coming
(36:21):
off as flaky. I do, do I do hita bunch of internalized ableism?
Around, like, why can't I makeplans for nine o'clock in the
morning? Or why can't I? Youknow, do these things that I
just literally cannot docomfortably or or why is it so
uncomfortable going on this walkright now? You know, like? Yeah,
(36:43):
yeah, it is really what isuseful is being able to know
that I have people in my lifewhere I can just be really clear
and direct and not feel likethat's me coming off as flaky or
anything else. Any othernegative words that you
associate with that? Yeah. So toget back to the ease? Yes.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (37:05):
Yeah. And I think there's a piece about
like being seen as less thanperfect, which of course I am,
right. And we all are, but withfolks other than our right
people and right relationships,we still we worry about, we're
seeing we've created again, Idon't want to over I don't want
to repeat myself too much. Butlike I've created work for
people, if I have to do XY andZ, and I'm screwing things up
(37:27):
somehow, so that that's, andyeah, I don't. Yeah. Let me just
stop. Let me just stop, you haveto say, Oh, no talk and say,
like, oh, you go.
Larissa Parson (37:39):
I mean, I think maybe the point that we're
trying to get at here is thatwith our right people, it's
easier for us to kind of hold onto the two thoughts. That I can
own these are things that I wantto be better at. And these are
(38:01):
things that I am not good at.
And, and that like I'm not a badperson, because there are things
I want to be better at. Doesthat make sense? Yeah. We talked
about this last night a bitabout, about feeling bad. And,
and so no, for example, to makeit concrete, I'm not a terrible
person, just because I have aterrible sense of time. And
like, I'm never, I'm eitherearly or late. I'm almost never
(38:25):
right on time to anything. AndI'm, but I'm a person, but I can
be early because I set upmultiple ways of making up for
my own time blindness. Like, Ijust, I, it's just how it is.
And that means I don't end upmissing things or being rude.
But my right people also knownever to make plans for me at an
(38:46):
exact moment when I need to besomewhere getting somebody out
of the rain. You know, like, weknow this, and it doesn't become
a she's always late, so I hateher situation. Because we figure
out ways that works for all ofus.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (39:01):
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think that
brings us to there's easesometimes in setting a boundary,
right? So I think sometimes itis easier to say out loud, what
doesn't work for you, when youfeel strongly about the
relationship, we both have astake in it. When we don't feel
like someone is just like gonnago strict or check out on us or
leave us or or use thatinformation against us somehow.
Or you don't feel safe, safeenough to share your feelings.
(39:24):
You know, like, I think this iswe even talked about, like a
month or so ago when we're like,this is a piece that's missing
from the boundary conversation.
And certainly a piece that Idon't think I've included in the
boundary conversation. Maybe ifI have it's not been strong
enough in my mind, but it's thatyou know, when we set a boundary
it needs to be have a stake inthe relationship. Right. And
(39:46):
those are totally your rightpeople. Those are totally right
people.
Larissa Parson (39:50):
Yeah. Yeah, um, when we sit I'm going to say
that again, when we set aboundary, it has to be with
people who have a stake in therelationship and When we set a
boundary, it makes things somuch easier because then we have
clarity. We don't have to wonderwe don't have to think about it
(40:10):
so much like, it's, it's not athere's not so many questions
running around in our mindsabout it. And then maybe this
is, you know, Elizabeth, I feellike maybe this is like a little
bit of me ruminating on anxiousattachment kinds of ways of
relating to people, but but Ithink that the boundaries are a
(40:31):
great way to ease that kind ofanxiety and to and to reassure
people who are avoidant that,you know, it's okay to share
your feelings here, because wehave this boundary in place
about whatever.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (40:43):
Yeah, yeah, that makes that makes
really good sense to me. Um, soI think the other thing with the
ease is that it really matters.
Why are we talking about this?
There's hard work in setting upmaintaining, investing in a
relationship and ease matters.
And the relationships matter,because life is really hard.
Yeah, life is really hard. It'shard for some of us more than
(41:05):
others of us for sure. I'msaying that as you know,
acknowledging my privilege righthere it my life is hard in
different ways. than someone whohas less privilege, less access,
less wealth, less, you know, allof these pieces. Life is hard
work. It's hard fighting acapitalist patriarchal white
supremacy, that pushes diet,culture and consumption
(41:28):
simultaneously, like consume butalso restrict consumption.
That's really hard. That isreally hard. So we do need ease.
We need more pockets of ease.
And our right people are arewhere we can get some of those
sweet soft places to land.
Larissa Parson (41:45):
Yes, and that's why that's why we do that's why
we do the work is that we needthese sweet soft places to land.
Ease ah, that when you when youwhen you said all of that, I was
like, right. My right people. Ilive this is like, this is one
(42:08):
of the things I'm most gratefulfor in life is that I live
surrounded by my right people somuch of the time. Yeah. But when
I stepped outside of thosecircles, I am always blown away
by how powerful the forces ofdiet culture, patriarchy,
(42:28):
racism, consumerism, like all ofthis shit. Like, it blows my
mind when I step away from thecircles and look at the things
that people just say casually.
Yeah, about other people'sbodies. In this world
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:41):
All day long.
Larissa Parson (42:42):
All day long.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (42:44):
In a high end, women's clothing boutique
all fucking day long. All daylong. The reason I only do it
two days a week. I love what Ido. And it is very hard to hear
women denigrate their bodies ona regular basis. Multiple hours
a day.
Larissa Parson (42:58):
hours. hours.
Yeah, hours.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:00):
Yeah.
Seven hours. Yeah. So yeah. Soyeah, that's absolutely,
absolutely.
Larissa Parson (43:06):
So in the spirit of...
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:10):
Wrap us up, lady!
Larissa Parson (43:12):
...embracing having a body and all the
wonderful things that it can do.
What are we eating this week?
Elizabeth?
Elizabeth M. Johnson (43:19):
Oh my gosh. That's like a that's like
a Michael Hobbes and AubreyGordon segue, it's so strong.
Um, yeah. What are we eating?
What am I eating? Oh, I knowwhat I'm eating, which is really
lovely. I'm like, Snack Service
Larissa Parson (43:29):
Yeah, you uh, hi. I'm also not making any food
has been on a like a hit listwith me in the past couple of
weeks. So I ordered some sweetpotato, mac and cheese, which we
did not have last night becauseof the train debacle. And I have
plans. Oh my gosh, and I'meating something else. I'm going
to have plans. I have plans withmy friend Brittany. And we're
(43:53):
gonna go to Vimala's, I think.
I'm super excited. I haven'tbeen there in a really long
time. I know. I know. So I'vegot donut muffins. I've got
Vimala's, and I've got somesweet potato mac and cheese
happening this weekend. So somenice combos with things that I'm
actually not making any of. Soyay. Yay, me.
(44:17):
anytime soon. Okay, I'm gonnamake bacon for breakfast
tomorrow. I'm having burgers fordinner tonight.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:23):
Oh, did you have burgers a couple nights
ago or what? Wednesday or whatexactly like?
Larissa Parson (44:27):
I usually do Wednesday burgers
Elizabeth M. Johnson (44:29):
Wednesday burgers. I know it doesn't.
Everyone knows this schedule.
This could be like a quiz foryour right people. Do you know
which night I do burgers. Theywill all get it I bet. But it
might be interesting, though.
Some of them will likeimmediatly know, but I bet non
food people are not going to,not going to be super invested
in it. Like I remember thatbecause that's like part of it
(44:50):
and also like, I eat so there'sthat.
Larissa Parson (44:54):
Yeah, people who aren't into eating in the way
that we are into eating like, Idon't know anybody who doesn't
appreciate food because thoseare not my right people. But But
I but I don't know people, Butthere are lots of my friends, my
close friends even who are notinto food the way that I am. To
food as an experience. Yes,yeah. Yeah, I don't I'm not sure
(45:16):
where I'm getting burgers fromtonight. Maybe only burger maybe
five guys not sure. But it'sgoing to be greasy and
delicious.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:24):
Have you been to Queen burger? I went up
Blackwell the other day and sawit there. And it's it's so it's
associated with Kingfisher, ormaybe I'm kind of confused on
that one. I didn't know I meantto ask you last night when we
talked about the burger thing.
Larissa Parson (45:39):
No, but it's going on my list. Now.
Blackwell. Easy to walk through.
Easy to walk to right there.
Over by the health departmentwhere I can go pick up some more
free COVID tests. Ish.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (45:53):
It's right next to the ballpark. Yeah,
Larissa Parson (45:55):
yes. So I can talk a little bit. You could
nobody could see the the gestureI just made but the long way
round.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:04):
Nobody can see that. Yes, you're right.
Okay. But okay. That's it. Yeah.
So great. Because the close us,keep closing us out because it's
doing you're going great here.
Larissa Parson (46:14):
well, if you'd like it to make it easier for us
to buy things like sweet potato,mac and cheese and burgers. Yes.
And you would like to supportour work here on the podcast.
Please write us a reviewwherever you listen to podcasts
that helps people find us andfind their wow and how of living
a life of curiosity, communityliberation and delicious food.
(46:39):
On the food. I must be hungry.
Elizabeth M. Johnson (46:41):
I know what you're hungry. We're
recording this over lunch. Sothis is what happens sometimes.
Yes. In the interim, follow usat Wondermine podcast on
Instagram. Thanks again. We'reso delighted you've been with
us.
Larissa Parson (46:54):
Thanks for listening everyone.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.