April 23, 2024 • 23 mins
Our latest episode delves into the heart of this evolution, where tax codes and parental rights are just the tip of the iceberg. The conversation takes a turn when we peel back the curtain on the often conflated concepts of polyamory and polygamy. #joerogan #bretweinstein
Biblical passages hint at the age-old presence of such practices. We don't just stop at the theory; we also confront the real-world legal hurdles that people in these relationships face, creating a dialogue that's as informative as it is provocative.
And just when you think you've heard it all, we introduce you to polyandry – a world where one woman balances the hearts of multiple husbands. This episode isn't just a listen; it's a leap into a future where the definition of relationships is as diverse as the individuals within them.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Parental discretion is advised.
And me and Marcus came homelike earlier or something, and
then Alec also came home fromwork much earlier than expected,
so we ran into each other andthen we were trying to have like
a date.
I just at a certain point waslike Alec, would you mind
leaving so me and Marcus canhave sex?
And he was like yeah, and helike got up and left and you
guys were okay with that.
Yeah, I don't actually reallyhave Alec, you know what I mean.
(00:44):
So, like I've been with Alecfor a very long time, I have
this great relationship with him, but there was this lacking
area that just made me sad thatI wasn't able to connect with
him on race.
I don't have to like force Alecto like know everything about
my culture.
I can get that from somebodyelse and we, with each of them,
yeah Well, you get to like tapinto different areas that you
don't necessarily have as muchaccess to with one person.
(01:05):
You can tap into it withmultiple people.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I think people choose multiple relationships because
they feel trapped, and thequestion I have for you is why
do people need to have more thanone intimate relationship?
Hey, my name is Lionel.
Thank you for tuning into theWords for Change podcast.
If you are a new listener,welcome.
I'm glad you're here.
Hey, we're having a really,really important conversation.
(01:29):
That I think is importantbecause it bleeds into or
informs us into how the Americansocial norms as it relates to
relationships are changing andshifting.
It matters to you, it mattersto me because research is
showing that, particularly thosewho are millennials, that
(01:50):
relationships dynamics arechanging and how people engage
in intimate relationships areshifting and changing, and
people are not engaging in theserelationships simply because or
traditional forms ofrelationships, because that's
what conventional wisdom says Idon't know if you listen to that
clip, but it is clear to yousimply because or traditional
forms of relationships, becausethat's what conventional wisdom
says.
I don't know if you listen tothat clip, but it is clear to
you, it's clear to me, thatthere is a huge shift in how
(02:14):
relationships are functioning inthe American life and true to
form, like the video that I putout on YouTube.
I want you to go watch it ChapsTalk.
I'm sorry, sorry, that's myactual website, but it's chap.
It's words for change podcast.
I wanted to encourage you to goand check out that podcast,
that video on YouTube that dealswith this subject, and I'm
(02:36):
going to put out another video.
But but hey, listen, thisconcept or this issue I don't
know if you listen to that clipclearly, but here you have a
young lady with two individualsOne of the guys is black, the
other partner is white andthey're in a polyamorous
relationship.
This is something that thiskind of relationship structure
(02:56):
is impacting our daily lives, isimpacting tax structures and
benefits, is impacting healthinsurance, is impacting parental
rights, is impacting inherentlaws, and how we approach this
subject and topic, how weunderstand the practical
implications and how theseaffect the laws that are being
(03:17):
made in our communities and inour nation, makes this a
relevant topic.
It's not that distant, Iguarantee you.
There are people in yourcommunity right now who are
dealing with this topic.
Okay, I'm getting ready topreach now.
There are people in yourcommunity who are thinking and
(03:37):
considering or practicing theserelationships.
As a matter of fact, hey, theremay be some of my listeners,
you out there who, hey, maybeyou're in a polygamous
relationship.
Maybe you believe in polyamoryand I'll explain the difference
between the two coming up.
We're going to explore thistopic a little bit, get a little
bit into scripture, because Ithink it's important for us who
(03:59):
are listening to understand myintention.
I prayed a lot about it and theLord spoke to me.
I felt in the depths of myheart asking me why are you
doing this episode?
And let me just put this outthere I am in no way, I'm in no
way, shape or form, interestedin any of these topics on a
(04:20):
personal level.
I just want to make that clear.
This is not about me, butreally it's about how young
people, how people in oursociety, are viewing
relationships and I believe, asit is the reason for our podcast
, the reason why we started thepodcast because we believe that
(04:41):
the message that we have toshare impacts people's lives and
influence people's lives in areal level.
So I'm not just talking aboutscripture from biblical texts
from out of nowhere, but no,we're diving into.
Hey, why is this important?
How can this affect youreveryday life?
So we'll talk about Abraham,jacob and David.
Right, the historical context.
(05:03):
We'll get into that a littlebit.
We're going to discuss that.
Okay, now let me just put thisout here.
When the stats, when we talkabout polygamy on a global scale
, it's relatively rare,involving about 2% of the
world's population, but polygamyis primarily practiced in
regions like in West and CentralAfrica, and it often is.
(05:26):
These spaces are called thepolygamous belt I didn't even
know that.
Or polygamy belt I didn't evenknow that term existed until I
did my research.
It also exists in countrieslike Faso or Mali or Nigeria,
where there are significantpopulations living in polygamous
relationships.
I did not know that as well.
(05:48):
So a lot of this stuff we'refinding out as we're doing the
research.
It's not exclusive to one faith, but it's practiced by Muslims
and Christians and adherence offolk religion.
So we're not even talking abouta Christian versus Muslim or
folk religion.
It's not the conversation.
This, this these partnerships orrelationships are being
(06:10):
practiced by people fromdifferent faith groups.
A substantial percentage ofpeople who practice folk
religion live in polygamoushouseholds, which is also true,
so in Djibouti, where thesocioeconomic status of husbands
and the consent of existingwives are considered for the
approval of new marriages.
So basically, here, what we'regetting at is that it is
(06:35):
practice in many of these WestAfrican communities, as far as
research says, and other placesas well.
Outside of Africa, polygamy islegal in the middle east and in
asian countries.
Probably about one percentfewer than one percent of muslim
men in countries of afghanistanand egypt live with more than
one wife, despite the legalarrangements there.
(06:56):
But in the united states, right, it's largely banned and it
carries a significant socialstigma, and I'll talk about this
in a YouTube video.
Once again, please go watchthat YouTube video, promise you
it will be an eye opener for you.
The historical roots of polygamyare deep right.
There are references found inthe religious texts and the
(07:18):
Quran and the Bible.
That shows people from of our,particularly in the Bible,
traditional patriarchs,religious patriarchs in the
Hebrew Bible or Old Testamentare showing signs that they
practice polygamy as well, andmaybe polyamory right.
So there's the religious factor.
(07:39):
So we're diving deep into thisand I really want to hear your
comments.
I really want to hear what youhave to say.
So if you think that thisconversation, this podcast
episode, will be a benefit tosomeone, I'm going to encourage
you and I'm going to encourageyou to not see this as a problem
or a virus.
No, it's not that right, but Iwant you to see it as a
(08:05):
significant conversation to have, and here's what research is
also saying.
There's a book that I readcalled Sacred Rights, and I'll
(08:27):
young.
Young adult children are notonly changing their perspective
about religion and how they viewreligion, but they're also
changing their viewpoint aboutrelationships.
To focus on this or practicesome of these nontraditional
relationship practices, if youwill as well.
So, yeah, it's true.
(08:53):
So the historical roots right,we can pick up these things from
various ex-religious texts.
Okay, the legal the problem isthat there are legal and
cultural recognitions and thereare legal and cultural issues
that this brings up, thatpolygamy brings up, and this
often has historical and, insome places, historical ties,
(09:16):
like with the Church of JesusChrist and Latter-day Saints.
You guys know, youtraditionally call them Mormons.
We don't call them that anymore.
We call them LDS or Latter-daySaints, call them Mormons.
We don't call them that anymore, we call them LDS or Latter-day
Saints.
Right, some of those verytraditional conservative
factions within that group stillpractice polygamy.
So polygamy is generally seentoday, now, in some sectors, as
(09:37):
a lifestyle choice, a personalrelationship choice, and some of
them, some people, live inthese relationships, but they're
not recognized by, they're notvetted by the local governmental
institutions.
So you have people who areliving, who are going to your
churches and in your communitiesand people that you meet who
are practicing these kind ofrelationships, these polygamous
(10:01):
and polyamorous relationships.
Okay, it's not something thatyou and I can run away from, and
not to say that we need to runaway from it, meaning it's not
anything to be afraid of,without actually going forward
and trying addressing the topicor addressing the issue.
Now I've said two words.
I used the phrase polygamy andI used the phrase polyamory, and
(10:25):
I'm going to just explain thedifference between the two.
Polyamory refers to thepractice of engaging in multiple
romantic relationshipssimultaneously.
So you got a person who's in arelationship with one person and
also another person, but allparties are involved.
There's consent, there'sknowledge, there's understanding
(10:47):
that there's a three-partrelationship.
So the interview that you heardat the very beginning right, is
a group of people who, or threepeople who were involved in a
polyamory relationship and getthis y'all.
Some people are participating inpolyamorous relationships
because of financial reasons.
There's a lot of young peopleout there who, particularly post
COVID, who were trying to findthemselves.
(11:07):
They couldn't take it wastrying to find themselves trying
to establish.
After the great resignation,when COVID happened, people
stopped going to work.
They said you know, I'm notgoing to go back to my job
because you know what I can doit on my own.
And you had a lot of youngpeople saying look, I'm not
going to go back to college, I'mgoing to take a gap year.
And so how did you know thathow people were, how these young
(11:29):
people were making it work?
They were getting in thesekinds of relationships.
Did you know that they weregetting in these kinds of
relationships?
And not to say that I agreewith that, but you need to know
that there are people, youngpeople, who were engaging in
these kinds of relationships foreconomic purposes.
(11:50):
They were trying to get, youknow, trying to establish
themselves away from theirparents, and so they were
participating in theserelationships and to make their
way through, to live, to survive.
Polygamy, on the other hand, isthe practice of marrying
multiple spouses at one timeRight.
It's also called polygyny orpolygamy, polygamy, polygyny,
(12:15):
and I'm going to talk about inmy next video and on YouTube.
I'm going to talk aboutpolygyny, so I'll talk about
that next.
But the point here that this isa topic of conversation that we
need to discuss because oursocial system and how we see
relationships are drasticallyshifting and changing, and so
(12:36):
there are legal laws that arehappening, there are legal
situations that are happeningthat are affecting that.
So biblical, let's talk aboutthe biblical text, right so, in
Genesis, chapter 16, becausepeople, because you as a
listener, need to understandright If you are a Christian,
that there are scripture versesand stories and narratives in
(12:56):
the Bible where individuals,stories and faith, people of
faith, practiced polygamy.
Right, they had multiple wives.
Right, abraham and Sarah.
In Genesis, chapter 16,.
Right, abraham and Sarah.
Sarah could not marry, I'msorry, she could not have a
(13:18):
husband.
Sorry, mary, I'm sorry shecould not have a husband.
Sorry, sarah could not conceivea child and because she could
not conceive a child, she took ahandmaid, hagar.
This is in Genesis, chapter 16.
Go read it and told her husbandAbraham, because I cannot have
a child, you can take this, this, my handmaid, my servant, sort
(13:42):
of like a, and that was a commonpractice in those days to have
servants, right, people who youknow took care of your household
for you, and sort of like maids, and back in that time, ancient
time, they had what they calleda maid servant.
(14:03):
So you may have a wife who hadmultiple people or women in this
case to take care of variousthings in the home, and there's
a lot of women who actually dothat today.
They don't call these peoplemaid servants, but they may call
them nannies and so forth andso on.
Okay, but Abraham took hiswife's suggestion, took Hagar,
had relationships with her andthen they produced the son
(14:24):
Ishmael, and Sarah was okay withthat.
Now, the result of thatrelationship was pretty
contradictory and you can go andread it, because I want to
encourage you to do that, but itshows you what the result of
that relationship was.
Jacob married Leah and Rachel.
This is in Genesis 29 and 30.
And you see that Leah andRachel's father right deceived
(14:50):
them, so Rachel also had a child.
Sorry, jacob married Leah andhe married Rachel, and he also
had a child with theirhandmaidens, belhah and Zephah.
This is in Genesis 29 and 30.
So once again, once again, yousee that you have polygamy being
(15:11):
practiced, and these are andthese stories are coming from
people in the scripture faith,fathers in the Christian,
judeo-christian tradition.
You are seeing this happening.
You're seeing this happening.
David had multiple wives, right,he had Michal, abigail and
Bathsheba, and among others.
This is 2 Samuel 3, 2-5-6.
(15:34):
11, 26, and 27.
So, once again, it's importantfor us to ask these questions
right.
I begin the way I started whydo people care?
Why should you care, right?
Why do people feel the needthat they need to have more than
one spouse, right?
(15:55):
Why do people feel that theyneed to have more than one
spouse or more than oneimportant intimate relationship?
And I would say that peoplefeel that way because they feel
trapped.
They feel trapped Now.
I want you to listen to thisother clip podcast with Brent
(16:15):
Weinstein, and he's given hisexplanation of why he think
people who are choosingpolygamous relationship,
polyamory, are on the wrong page.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I do not think polyamorous folks are on the
right track.
Within the polyamorouscommunity, there's a recognition
about just how difficult it isto make it work, but I don't
really want to interfere withtheir right to do it.
I would like to be able to talkabout whether it's a good idea,
whether it has societalimplications that we should be
aware of, but I would counselthem away from it because I
think it actually prioritizesone thing which is desirable,
but the cost of it is very, veryhigh.
(16:48):
What does it prioritize?
It prioritizes not lockingyourself into a single sexual
relationship, and I thinkthere's a way in which there is
a terror that surrounds lockingyourself into a single sexual
relationship, and part of theterror goes back to what we were
talking about at the beginningof the conversation.
If you think that beauty ismaxed out at 20 and then it
wanes over life, then as a womanyou're trapped in this terrible
(17:11):
situation where you've got thispower long before you know what
to do with it and it's going toevaporateate, so you better
capitalize on it.
And if you're a man, you're veryfrightened that you're going to
get into a relationship andthen you're going to watch this
person that you love fall apartin front of your eyes and you're
going to be you know, you'regoing to be caught in that
situation that, because we'vegot this overly simplistic
mythology surrounding, a lot ofpeople are trying to solve that
problem.
How do I not get locked intothat relationship that's going
(17:32):
to trap me with somebody who'sdecaying in front of me, right?
Yeah, I don't think it's adecaying thing.
I would push back against that.
I would say people just wantmore variety.
They just want they'reattracted to other people and
want to act on them.
And if they find a partner whois also willing to do that and
they stay together, I don't seewhat would be the issue if they
wanted to do it.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I don't know if he's a proponent or he would, or if
he was just being antagonisticlike just playing devil's
advocate.
When you have social structuresthat change, particularly as it
relates to individualrelationships, the question that
we must ask is why is thatstructure changing in this way?
What's causing the change?
What's the motivation for thechange?
(18:30):
The whole concept of ourunderstanding of how
relationships function, wherelove is, you know, primary
perhaps.
Is that an individual choice oris that a state choice?
Right, because you can have astate to intervene on, say,
(18:52):
abortion?
Right, this is not anindividual's choice, to
particularly those on the right.
Politically, right will alwaysmake an argument for hey, the
one you know, abortion in anyform is murder.
The state has a right tointervene because of a taking of
another's life.
Right.
Then the whole conversationaround well, what defines life?
(19:15):
Ok, on the left, or however youfind yourself politically in
relation to this subject ofabortion, you could then say
well, life is not determineduntil this point, or it's an
individual's choice and thestate shouldn't be involved in
an individual's choice.
If a woman decides to do that,it is not the state's authority.
(19:36):
They're outreaching theauthority by stretching into a
person's individual choice onwhat they do with their body.
The same thing can be saidabout this circumstance right
does the state if a personchooses to marry multiple people
or be in relationship let'sjust say, marry so polyg if a
(19:58):
person decides to participate inpolygamy and all the persons
participating are in consent,then what right does the state
have to impinge upon thatconsent?
So then the question is well,what is the issue?
If you have adults who areconsenting to this, why is the
state involved in this?
And I'm not even talking aboutthe religious perspective and
(20:22):
I'm not talking about mypersonal belief, but I'm giving
you arguments around this topic.
So then the question thenbecomes well, if they're
consenting adults, then whatright does the state have to
impinge upon that consent, andis it the individual's right if
they want to participate in that?
Well, I think it boils down tolegal concerns.
(20:42):
There was a man in.
There was a legal case inBolton County I'm sorry, not in
Bolton County, but there was alegal case in Texas of a
individual by the name ofOrlando Coleman.
Fox News reported on on, andI'm not, although I'm not a huge
fan of Fox News, but there yougo.
(21:04):
But, um, orlando Coleman washighlighted because of him
participating in a polygamous,uh relationship and in Texas, uh
, you know, uh, that'sconsidered, can be considered a
felony, just like many otherthings in Texas.
I'm not surprised by that atall, like many things in Texas,
(21:28):
right, and I'm not even talkingabout what the Bible says, but
I'm bringing up why it is anissue in many of these places
and states.
So the legal system treats,treats as an offense, treats it
as a problem and stands againstpolygamy, which is outlawed in
the United States, right.
(21:53):
So, so, yes, orlando Coleman,right, with his DA weighing in
on the situation, was sayinglisten, this is a family law
case, right, should it be afamily law case?
Should it serve as a reminder?
Or because it's criminal law,because of exploitation of
(22:14):
persons and relationship, right?
So there are many complexproblems with this story that
leads to it being criminal andillegal practice, right?
And so again, why should we beconcerned?
Why should we care?
Why is this relevant?
It's relevant because itsurrounds the whole concept of
(22:38):
relationships.
It's relevant because itsurrounds the whole concept of
relationships and it also getsinto if a person chooses to do
this and to participate in theserelationships and the state
blesses that Excuse the analogythere.
But then they have to alsorender tax benefits.
How does that work?
Health insurance, parentalrights, you know, death rights,
(23:04):
property rights everythingchanges.
So listen, here's my conclusion.
Okay, here's where I'm dry.
You're saying, lionel, why arewe talking about this on the
Words for Change podcast?
We're talking about thisbecause young people are
participating in theserelationships.
(23:24):
Social structures are changing.
Not only are people redefininghow they work in the workplace,
how they function in theirprivate lives a matter of a
public issue, not a privateissue, not a public issue.
Same thing with COVID Right, Ihave a right to not take that is
(23:48):
a state impinging upon my right.
So what we're looking at is thestate's ability to impinge upon
individual rights.
And for Christians, when we lookat this subject matter, we have
double ties in conflictinginformation.
You got in the biblical textwhere you got faith fathers in a
(24:11):
Judeo-Christian background whoare saying but the story
demonstrates in the Bible,through Abraham, david, solomon,
right Polygamy was practiced.
Now there's something that wecan learn from that story up.
Those relationships were very,very contradictory, very, very
(24:32):
contentious relationships thattypically didn't end well for
those individuals participatingin it.
Hagar ended up being kicked outof the house and her and her
son were homeless.
Jacob's father-in-law betrayedhim.
Jacob was known as a trickster.
David was a person who killedBathsheba's husband to have her.
(24:56):
He was known as a man of anger.
Solomon turned away from God.
He had 700 wives, 300concubines in 1 Kings 11, 1
through 4.
So when we look at these texts,these texts are not saying that
these relationships are good.
And then you have the church ofJesus Christ, latter-day Saints
, who, some of their traditionalfractions, still practice
(25:19):
polygamous relationships.
And what am I saying?
I'm saying that if we turn ablind eye toward these things,
then one, we're not taking ourfaith and putting it into
practice.
Number two, we are not seeinghow it is our responsibility to
help provide guidance and shapethe moral ethic of our
(25:42):
communities that we are a partof.
And then, three, we are leavingthese very adult decisions up
to children, who are makingthese decisions and they're not
at a age where they can makesuch decisions that will affect
the rest of their lives.
There's psychological andemotional studies that indicate
(26:02):
high levels of depression andanxiety in polygamous marriages.
Children in polygamous familiesand relationships typically
have emotional stress andstigmatism that lasts for a long
time.
Some would even say, theeducational achievements are
lower from kids who are in theseparental households.
(26:23):
Polygamous householdsHouseholds typically experience
economic burden because of it.
There are a lot of socialissues, religious issues and
spiritual issues, and it is ourresponsibility to have something
to say.
The next podcast episode we'regoing to talk about polyandry,
that's when a woman has multiplehusbands, and I'm going to post
(26:44):
a YouTube video about it andthen I'm going to come back and
do an audio podcast.
This will not be a video, butthis is only for my podcast
audience.
So if you have somebody in thatrelationship that you know
dearly or work with, ask themtheir opinion about it.
Ask them their opinion about itIn the future.
I don't know if I'll be able topull it off soon, but just pray
(27:05):
that I can have a person whoactually came out of a
polygamous relationship in aninterview.
That's my goal.
That's my goal.
So keep the faith and lookforward to talking to you soon.
Parental discretion is advised.
And me and Marcus came homelike earlier or something, and
then Alec also came home fromwork much earlier than expected,
so we ran into each other andthen we were trying to have like
a date.
I just at a certain point waslike Alec, would you mind
leaving so me and Marcus canhave sex?
And he was like yeah, and helike got up and left and you
guys were okay with that.
Yeah, I don't actually reallyhave Alec, you know what I mean.
(00:44):
So, like I've been with Alecfor a very long time, I have
this great relationship with him, but there was this lacking
area that just made me sad thatI wasn't able to connect with
him on race.
I don't have to like force Alecto like know everything about
my culture.
I can get that from somebodyelse and we, with each of them,
yeah Well, you get to like tapinto different areas that you
don't necessarily have as muchaccess to with one person.
(01:05):
You can tap into it withmultiple people.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
I think people choose multiple relationships because
they feel trapped, and thequestion I have for you is why
do people need to have more thanone intimate relationship?
Hey, my name is Lionel.
Thank you for tuning into theWords for Change podcast.
If you are a new listener,welcome.
I'm glad you're here.
Hey, we're having a really,really important conversation.
(01:29):
That I think is importantbecause it bleeds into or
informs us into how the Americansocial norms as it relates to
relationships are changing andshifting.
It matters to you, it mattersto me because research is
showing that, particularly thosewho are millennials, that
(01:50):
relationships dynamics arechanging and how people engage
in intimate relationships areshifting and changing, and
people are not engaging in theserelationships simply because or
traditional forms ofrelationships, because that's
what conventional wisdom says Idon't know if you listen to that
clip, but it is clear to yousimply because or traditional
forms of relationships, becausethat's what conventional wisdom
says.
I don't know if you listen tothat clip, but it is clear to
you, it's clear to me, thatthere is a huge shift in how
(02:14):
relationships are functioning inthe American life and true to
form, like the video that I putout on YouTube.
I want you to go watch it ChapsTalk.
I'm sorry, sorry, that's myactual website, but it's chap.
It's words for change podcast.
I wanted to encourage you to goand check out that podcast,
that video on YouTube that dealswith this subject, and I'm
(02:36):
going to put out another video.
But but hey, listen, thisconcept or this issue I don't
know if you listen to that clipclearly, but here you have a
young lady with two individualsOne of the guys is black, the
other partner is white andthey're in a polyamorous
relationship.
This is something that thiskind of relationship structure
(02:56):
is impacting our daily lives, isimpacting tax structures and
benefits, is impacting healthinsurance, is impacting parental
rights, is impacting inherentlaws, and how we approach this
subject and topic, how weunderstand the practical
implications and how theseaffect the laws that are being
(03:17):
made in our communities and inour nation, makes this a
relevant topic.
It's not that distant, Iguarantee you.
There are people in yourcommunity right now who are
dealing with this topic.
Okay, I'm getting ready topreach now.
There are people in yourcommunity who are thinking and
(03:37):
considering or practicing theserelationships.
As a matter of fact, hey, theremay be some of my listeners,
you out there who, hey, maybeyou're in a polygamous
relationship.
Maybe you believe in polyamoryand I'll explain the difference
between the two coming up.
We're going to explore thistopic a little bit, get a little
bit into scripture, because Ithink it's important for us who
(03:59):
are listening to understand myintention.
I prayed a lot about it and theLord spoke to me.
I felt in the depths of myheart asking me why are you
doing this episode?
And let me just put this outthere I am in no way, I'm in no
way, shape or form, interestedin any of these topics on a
(04:20):
personal level.
I just want to make that clear.
This is not about me, butreally it's about how young
people, how people in oursociety, are viewing
relationships and I believe, asit is the reason for our podcast
, the reason why we started thepodcast because we believe that
(04:41):
the message that we have toshare impacts people's lives and
influence people's lives in areal level.
So I'm not just talking aboutscripture from biblical texts
from out of nowhere, but no,we're diving into.
Hey, why is this important?
How can this affect youreveryday life?
So we'll talk about Abraham,jacob and David.
Right, the historical context.
(05:03):
We'll get into that a littlebit.
We're going to discuss that.
Okay, now let me just put thisout here.
When the stats, when we talkabout polygamy on a global scale
, it's relatively rare,involving about 2% of the
world's population, but polygamyis primarily practiced in
regions like in West and CentralAfrica, and it often is.
(05:26):
These spaces are called thepolygamous belt I didn't even
know that.
Or polygamy belt I didn't evenknow that term existed until I
did my research.
It also exists in countrieslike Faso or Mali or Nigeria,
where there are significantpopulations living in polygamous
relationships.
I did not know that as well.
(05:48):
So a lot of this stuff we'refinding out as we're doing the
research.
It's not exclusive to one faith, but it's practiced by Muslims
and Christians and adherence offolk religion.
So we're not even talking abouta Christian versus Muslim or
folk religion.
It's not the conversation.
This, this these partnerships orrelationships are being
(06:10):
practiced by people fromdifferent faith groups.
A substantial percentage ofpeople who practice folk
religion live in polygamoushouseholds, which is also true,
so in Djibouti, where thesocioeconomic status of husbands
and the consent of existingwives are considered for the
approval of new marriages.
So basically, here, what we'regetting at is that it is
(06:35):
practice in many of these WestAfrican communities, as far as
research says, and other placesas well.
Outside of Africa, polygamy islegal in the middle east and in
asian countries.
Probably about one percentfewer than one percent of muslim
men in countries of afghanistanand egypt live with more than
one wife, despite the legalarrangements there.
(06:56):
But in the united states, right, it's largely banned and it
carries a significant socialstigma, and I'll talk about this
in a YouTube video.
Once again, please go watchthat YouTube video, promise you
it will be an eye opener for you.
The historical roots of polygamyare deep right.
There are references found inthe religious texts and the
(07:18):
Quran and the Bible.
That shows people from of our,particularly in the Bible,
traditional patriarchs,religious patriarchs in the
Hebrew Bible or Old Testamentare showing signs that they
practice polygamy as well, andmaybe polyamory right.
So there's the religious factor.
(07:39):
So we're diving deep into thisand I really want to hear your
comments.
I really want to hear what youhave to say.
So if you think that thisconversation, this podcast
episode, will be a benefit tosomeone, I'm going to encourage
you and I'm going to encourageyou to not see this as a problem
or a virus.
No, it's not that right, but Iwant you to see it as a
(08:05):
significant conversation to have, and here's what research is
also saying.
There's a book that I readcalled Sacred Rights, and I'll
(08:27):
young.
Young adult children are notonly changing their perspective
about religion and how they viewreligion, but they're also
changing their viewpoint aboutrelationships.
To focus on this or practicesome of these nontraditional
relationship practices, if youwill as well.
So, yeah, it's true.
(08:53):
So the historical roots right,we can pick up these things from
various ex-religious texts.
Okay, the legal the problem isthat there are legal and
cultural recognitions and thereare legal and cultural issues
that this brings up, thatpolygamy brings up, and this
often has historical and, insome places, historical ties,
(09:16):
like with the Church of JesusChrist and Latter-day Saints.
You guys know, youtraditionally call them Mormons.
We don't call them that anymore.
We call them LDS or Latter-daySaints, call them Mormons.
We don't call them that anymore, we call them LDS or Latter-day
Saints.
Right, some of those verytraditional conservative
factions within that group stillpractice polygamy.
So polygamy is generally seentoday, now, in some sectors, as
(09:37):
a lifestyle choice, a personalrelationship choice, and some of
them, some people, live inthese relationships, but they're
not recognized by, they're notvetted by the local governmental
institutions.
So you have people who areliving, who are going to your
churches and in your communitiesand people that you meet who
are practicing these kind ofrelationships, these polygamous
(10:01):
and polyamorous relationships.
Okay, it's not something thatyou and I can run away from, and
not to say that we need to runaway from it, meaning it's not
anything to be afraid of,without actually going forward
and trying addressing the topicor addressing the issue.
Now I've said two words.
I used the phrase polygamy andI used the phrase polyamory, and
(10:25):
I'm going to just explain thedifference between the two.
Polyamory refers to thepractice of engaging in multiple
romantic relationshipssimultaneously.
So you got a person who's in arelationship with one person and
also another person, but allparties are involved.
There's consent, there'sknowledge, there's understanding
(10:47):
that there's a three-partrelationship.
So the interview that you heardat the very beginning right, is
a group of people who, or threepeople who were involved in a
polyamory relationship and getthis y'all.
Some people are participating inpolyamorous relationships
because of financial reasons.
There's a lot of young peopleout there who, particularly post
COVID, who were trying to findthemselves.
(11:07):
They couldn't take it wastrying to find themselves trying
to establish.
After the great resignation,when COVID happened, people
stopped going to work.
They said you know, I'm notgoing to go back to my job
because you know what I can doit on my own.
And you had a lot of youngpeople saying look, I'm not
going to go back to college, I'mgoing to take a gap year.
And so how did you know thathow people were, how these young
(11:29):
people were making it work?
They were getting in thesekinds of relationships.
Did you know that they weregetting in these kinds of
relationships?
And not to say that I agreewith that, but you need to know
that there are people, youngpeople, who were engaging in
these kinds of relationships foreconomic purposes.
(11:50):
They were trying to get, youknow, trying to establish
themselves away from theirparents, and so they were
participating in theserelationships and to make their
way through, to live, to survive.
Polygamy, on the other hand, isthe practice of marrying
multiple spouses at one timeRight.
It's also called polygyny orpolygamy, polygamy, polygyny,
(12:15):
and I'm going to talk about inmy next video and on YouTube.
I'm going to talk aboutpolygyny, so I'll talk about
that next.
But the point here that this isa topic of conversation that we
need to discuss because oursocial system and how we see
relationships are drasticallyshifting and changing, and so
(12:36):
there are legal laws that arehappening, there are legal
situations that are happeningthat are affecting that.
So biblical, let's talk aboutthe biblical text, right so, in
Genesis, chapter 16, becausepeople, because you as a
listener, need to understandright If you are a Christian,
that there are scripture versesand stories and narratives in
(12:56):
the Bible where individuals,stories and faith, people of
faith, practiced polygamy.
Right, they had multiple wives.
Right, abraham and Sarah.
In Genesis, chapter 16,.
Right, abraham and Sarah.
Sarah could not marry, I'msorry, she could not have a
(13:18):
husband.
Sorry, mary, I'm sorry shecould not have a husband.
Sorry, sarah could not conceivea child and because she could
not conceive a child, she took ahandmaid, hagar.
This is in Genesis, chapter 16.
Go read it and told her husbandAbraham, because I cannot have
a child, you can take this, this, my handmaid, my servant, sort
(13:42):
of like a, and that was a commonpractice in those days to have
servants, right, people who youknow took care of your household
for you, and sort of like maids, and back in that time, ancient
time, they had what they calleda maid servant.
(14:03):
So you may have a wife who hadmultiple people or women in this
case to take care of variousthings in the home, and there's
a lot of women who actually dothat today.
They don't call these peoplemaid servants, but they may call
them nannies and so forth andso on.
Okay, but Abraham took hiswife's suggestion, took Hagar,
had relationships with her andthen they produced the son
(14:24):
Ishmael, and Sarah was okay withthat.
Now, the result of thatrelationship was pretty
contradictory and you can go andread it, because I want to
encourage you to do that, but itshows you what the result of
that relationship was.
Jacob married Leah and Rachel.
This is in Genesis 29 and 30.
And you see that Leah andRachel's father right deceived
(14:50):
them, so Rachel also had a child.
Sorry, jacob married Leah andhe married Rachel, and he also
had a child with theirhandmaidens, belhah and Zephah.
This is in Genesis 29 and 30.
So once again, once again, yousee that you have polygamy being
(15:11):
practiced, and these are andthese stories are coming from
people in the scripture faith,fathers in the Christian,
judeo-christian tradition.
You are seeing this happening.
You're seeing this happening.
David had multiple wives, right,he had Michal, abigail and
Bathsheba, and among others.
This is 2 Samuel 3, 2-5-6.
(15:34):
11, 26, and 27.
So, once again, it's importantfor us to ask these questions
right.
I begin the way I started whydo people care?
Why should you care, right?
Why do people feel the needthat they need to have more than
one spouse, right?
(15:55):
Why do people feel that theyneed to have more than one
spouse or more than oneimportant intimate relationship?
And I would say that peoplefeel that way because they feel
trapped.
They feel trapped Now.
I want you to listen to thisother clip podcast with Brent
(16:15):
Weinstein, and he's given hisexplanation of why he think
people who are choosingpolygamous relationship,
polyamory, are on the wrong page.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
I do not think polyamorous folks are on the
right track.
Within the polyamorouscommunity, there's a recognition
about just how difficult it isto make it work, but I don't
really want to interfere withtheir right to do it.
I would like to be able to talkabout whether it's a good idea,
whether it has societalimplications that we should be
aware of, but I would counselthem away from it because I
think it actually prioritizesone thing which is desirable,
but the cost of it is very, veryhigh.
(16:48):
What does it prioritize?
It prioritizes not lockingyourself into a single sexual
relationship, and I thinkthere's a way in which there is
a terror that surrounds lockingyourself into a single sexual
relationship, and part of theterror goes back to what we were
talking about at the beginningof the conversation.
If you think that beauty ismaxed out at 20 and then it
wanes over life, then as a womanyou're trapped in this terrible
(17:11):
situation where you've got thispower long before you know what
to do with it and it's going toevaporateate, so you better
capitalize on it.
And if you're a man, you're veryfrightened that you're going to
get into a relationship andthen you're going to watch this
person that you love fall apartin front of your eyes and you're
going to be you know, you'regoing to be caught in that
situation that, because we'vegot this overly simplistic
mythology surrounding, a lot ofpeople are trying to solve that
problem.
How do I not get locked intothat relationship that's going
(17:32):
to trap me with somebody who'sdecaying in front of me, right?
Yeah, I don't think it's adecaying thing.
I would push back against that.
I would say people just wantmore variety.
They just want they'reattracted to other people and
want to act on them.
And if they find a partner whois also willing to do that and
they stay together, I don't seewhat would be the issue if they
wanted to do it.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I don't know if he's a proponent or he would, or if
he was just being antagonisticlike just playing devil's
advocate.
When you have social structuresthat change, particularly as it
relates to individualrelationships, the question that
we must ask is why is thatstructure changing in this way?
What's causing the change?
What's the motivation for thechange?
(18:30):
The whole concept of ourunderstanding of how
relationships function, wherelove is, you know, primary
perhaps.
Is that an individual choice oris that a state choice?
Right, because you can have astate to intervene on, say,
(18:52):
abortion?
Right, this is not anindividual's choice, to
particularly those on the right.
Politically, right will alwaysmake an argument for hey, the
one you know, abortion in anyform is murder.
The state has a right tointervene because of a taking of
another's life.
Right.
Then the whole conversationaround well, what defines life?
(19:15):
Ok, on the left, or however youfind yourself politically in
relation to this subject ofabortion, you could then say
well, life is not determineduntil this point, or it's an
individual's choice and thestate shouldn't be involved in
an individual's choice.
If a woman decides to do that,it is not the state's authority.
(19:36):
They're outreaching theauthority by stretching into a
person's individual choice onwhat they do with their body.
The same thing can be saidabout this circumstance right
does the state if a personchooses to marry multiple people
or be in relationship let'sjust say, marry so polyg if a
(19:58):
person decides to participate inpolygamy and all the persons
participating are in consent,then what right does the state
have to impinge upon thatconsent?
So then the question is well,what is the issue?
If you have adults who areconsenting to this, why is the
state involved in this?
And I'm not even talking aboutthe religious perspective and
(20:22):
I'm not talking about mypersonal belief, but I'm giving
you arguments around this topic.
So then the question thenbecomes well, if they're
consenting adults, then whatright does the state have to
impinge upon that consent, andis it the individual's right if
they want to participate in that?
Well, I think it boils down tolegal concerns.
(20:42):
There was a man in.
There was a legal case inBolton County I'm sorry, not in
Bolton County, but there was alegal case in Texas of a
individual by the name ofOrlando Coleman.
Fox News reported on on, andI'm not, although I'm not a huge
fan of Fox News, but there yougo.
(21:04):
But, um, orlando Coleman washighlighted because of him
participating in a polygamous,uh relationship and in Texas, uh
, you know, uh, that'sconsidered, can be considered a
felony, just like many otherthings in Texas.
I'm not surprised by that atall, like many things in Texas,
(21:28):
right, and I'm not even talkingabout what the Bible says, but
I'm bringing up why it is anissue in many of these places
and states.
So the legal system treats,treats as an offense, treats it
as a problem and stands againstpolygamy, which is outlawed in
the United States, right.
(21:53):
So, so, yes, orlando Coleman,right, with his DA weighing in
on the situation, was sayinglisten, this is a family law
case, right, should it be afamily law case?
Should it serve as a reminder?
Or because it's criminal law,because of exploitation of
(22:14):
persons and relationship, right?
So there are many complexproblems with this story that
leads to it being criminal andillegal practice, right?
And so again, why should we beconcerned?
Why should we care?
Why is this relevant?
It's relevant because itsurrounds the whole concept of
(22:38):
relationships.
It's relevant because itsurrounds the whole concept of
relationships and it also getsinto if a person chooses to do
this and to participate in theserelationships and the state
blesses that Excuse the analogythere.
But then they have to alsorender tax benefits.
How does that work?
Health insurance, parentalrights, you know, death rights,
(23:04):
property rights everythingchanges.
So listen, here's my conclusion.
Okay, here's where I'm dry.
You're saying, lionel, why arewe talking about this on the
Words for Change podcast?
We're talking about thisbecause young people are
participating in theserelationships.
(23:24):
Social structures are changing.
Not only are people redefininghow they work in the workplace,
how they function in theirprivate lives a matter of a
public issue, not a privateissue, not a public issue.
Same thing with COVID Right, Ihave a right to not take that is
(23:48):
a state impinging upon my right.
So what we're looking at is thestate's ability to impinge upon
individual rights.
And for Christians, when we lookat this subject matter, we have
double ties in conflictinginformation.
You got in the biblical textwhere you got faith fathers in a
(24:11):
Judeo-Christian background whoare saying but the story
demonstrates in the Bible,through Abraham, david, solomon,
right Polygamy was practiced.
Now there's something that wecan learn from that story up.
Those relationships were very,very contradictory, very, very
(24:32):
contentious relationships thattypically didn't end well for
those individuals participatingin it.
Hagar ended up being kicked outof the house and her and her
son were homeless.
Jacob's father-in-law betrayedhim.
Jacob was known as a trickster.
David was a person who killedBathsheba's husband to have her.
(24:56):
He was known as a man of anger.
Solomon turned away from God.
He had 700 wives, 300concubines in 1 Kings 11, 1
through 4.
So when we look at these texts,these texts are not saying that
these relationships are good.
And then you have the church ofJesus Christ, latter-day Saints
, who, some of their traditionalfractions, still practice
(25:19):
polygamous relationships.
And what am I saying?
I'm saying that if we turn ablind eye toward these things,
then one, we're not taking ourfaith and putting it into
practice.
Number two, we are not seeinghow it is our responsibility to
help provide guidance and shapethe moral ethic of our
(25:42):
communities that we are a partof.
And then, three, we are leavingthese very adult decisions up
to children, who are makingthese decisions and they're not
at a age where they can makesuch decisions that will affect
the rest of their lives.
There's psychological andemotional studies that indicate
(26:02):
high levels of depression andanxiety in polygamous marriages.
Children in polygamous familiesand relationships typically
have emotional stress andstigmatism that lasts for a long
time.
Some would even say, theeducational achievements are
lower from kids who are in theseparental households.
(26:23):
Polygamous householdsHouseholds typically experience
economic burden because of it.
There are a lot of socialissues, religious issues and
spiritual issues, and it is ourresponsibility to have something
to say.
The next podcast episode we'regoing to talk about polyandry,
that's when a woman has multiplehusbands, and I'm going to post
(26:44):
a YouTube video about it andthen I'm going to come back and
do an audio podcast.
This will not be a video, butthis is only for my podcast
audience.
So if you have somebody in thatrelationship that you know
dearly or work with, ask themtheir opinion about it.
Ask them their opinion about itIn the future.
I don't know if I'll be able topull it off soon, but just pray
(27:05):
that I can have a person whoactually came out of a
polygamous relationship in aninterview.
That's my goal.
That's my goal.
So keep the faith and lookforward to talking to you soon.
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