July 1, 2024 • 32 mins
Join Lionel on the Words for Change podcast as he dives deep into the journey of reconnecting to faith and exploring the message of Jesus. In this episode, special guest Bob Martin, a former criminal trial attorney and mob lawyer, shares his transformative spiritual journey. Discover how Bob's experiences in community service and political involvement shaped his path from Taoism to Christianity. This thought-provoking conversation highlights the duality in beliefs and the harmony between Eastern and Christian wisdom. Tune in for an inspiring discussion on the practical application of faith in our lives.
Three Major Takeaways
- Practical Faith Reconnection: The episode underscores the importance of reconnecting with the Christian faith and the teachings of Jesus, focusing on how these can be practically applied in everyday life for personal and communal growth.
- Impact of Individual Actions: Bob Martin's narrative demonstrates how individual actions in community service, political involvement, and professional roles can significantly contribute to societal change and influence the lives of others.
- Interfaith Understanding: The conversation encourages exploring and understanding the commonalities between different faith traditions, particularly the shared principles between Taoist and Christian teachings, promoting a message of interfaith harmony and spiritual transformation.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lionel (00:00):
Well, hey, welcome to the Words for Change podcast.
I am excited because we have anopportunity to reconnect to our
faith, and there's so manydifferent ways we can do that,
but our goal here is for thoseof you who are in search for
your Christian faith toreconnect to the message of
(00:21):
Jesus, to the words of Jesus, tothe practicality of what Jesus
brings to our lives.
This episode is going to begood for you.
It's going to be very helpfulfor you.
My name is Lionel, I'm the hostof this podcast and I have a
special guest who is here withus today.
Bob, how are you doing today,good sir, I'm doing great.
Bob Martin (00:44):
Thank you for having me.
It's a real pleasure to be here.
Lionel (00:47):
Absolutely, we're happy to have you.
And so, bob, why don't you tellpeople who you are and what
blessings or goodness do youbring to the world?
Bob Martin (01:00):
So it's been a long life.
I'm 74 years old and I guessthe best thing I can say and the
best definition of who I amtoday is I'm a happy guy who has
the blessings of the love of mysecond wife and both of our all
of our children andgrandchildren, and I have
opportunities to serve thecommunity and serve the Lord.
Have opportunities to serve thecommunity and serve the Lord.
Lionel (01:24):
So, Bob, how do you serve the community?
Communal change is a big partof what we aspire to do and be
with our Words for Changecommunity.
Bob Martin (01:39):
So how do you serve the community?
So I am a part of the communityand I'm a part of the world,
and everyone that I come intocontact with is a part of the
community and a part of theworld.
So, as Mother Teresa once said,you know, we can't change the
whole world, but we can changeour little corner of it.
So every difference that I canmake in a life is a way of
(02:04):
changing and serving mycommunity.
Then there's, of course, alsothe institutional things, like
serving my church and being acommunity advocate and getting
into politics and freedoms andrights and stuff like that, but
mostly it's all about thatone-on-one relationship that you
have with folks that make adifference in their lives.
Lionel (02:21):
So what did you do in the political sphere?
How did you, how were youinvolved in that, in that part
of your life?
I'll let you tell your storyand then I'll tell my story.
Bob Martin (02:34):
Well, you know, if we get into politics, we have to
take a look at the fact thatthis is an inflection point that
we're at, and I think that thechoice is very dire and very
important and very um very grave, uh, that we're coming up in
the next election, and I thinkthat understanding and not
(02:55):
having a superficial knowledgeof things so that you can make
an informed decision, um is, uh,it's just real important these
days.
Um, so, uh, that's the thepolitical end of it.
Uh, but I spent 40 years as a?
Uh criminal trial attorney,both as a prosecutor, um for
(03:16):
Janet Reno, uh, back in thecocaine days.
You know if you ever seen themovie Scarface?
Lionel (03:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bob Martin (03:24):
Well, those are the days that I was in Miami doing
that stuff and I prosecuted andI was also a mob lawyer for some
years.
Lionel (03:36):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You just can't go over that.
You said you were a mob lawyer.
Yeah, yeah yeah, I mean tell usabout that.
Bob Martin (03:48):
Well, when I was working in the DA's office, we
were in the Economic Crimes andConsumer Frauds Division and we
hit the mob up for a good sizeof money.
Shortly thereafter I left theoffice and I'll call him Johnny,
okay.
And basically the conversationwas you know, you gotta be
pretty good to hit us up forthat much money.
(04:09):
We'd like to see some clients.
So I got involved in all thatand yeah, yeah, so.
Lionel (04:22):
so how did you make the transition?
How did you get out of that?
That's the best.
Bob Martin (04:28):
Yeah Well.
Lionel (04:30):
I mean you can tell me.
Bob Martin (04:32):
Yeah, no, no, it's it's, it's it's we.
We parted on good terms.
We had a very good relationship.
You know, I find that folksthat are in the business of
crime are very good businessmenand we had a very good
arrangement that I wouldn't doanything illegal and unethical,
(04:52):
and they said that that was intheir best interest, because
they wanted a lawyer who wasrespected by the court and whose
word was gold.
And so we met on those valuesand we did.
You know, we, we workedtogether.
But then came a time whenJohnny's son got arrested on a
15 year minimum mandatorycocaine trafficking charge, and
(05:16):
then there was no saying no tohim.
He wanted me to do this and todo that, which I wasn't willing
to do.
So I thought that moving toNorth Carolina might be.
Lionel (05:29):
Well, I'll tell you.
Bob Martin (05:32):
I did and we shook hands and he said yeah,
sometimes a man just has to moveon and this way we can part
friends and never heard fromthem again.
Lionel (05:40):
Well, you know, bob, I was on the lower end of that, as
a young kid, teenager, who grewup in a poverty stricken area.
I was on the bottom of that,you know, involved with all
kinds of illegal activity notall kinds, but primarily with
drugs primarily and, man, youknow, the only way I got out of
it was because I had a deaththreat over my life and the word
(06:04):
was out on the street that ithad a hit on me and so I had to
get out of town and my familydid everything in their power to
get me out of town.
So you were sort of at adifferent angle with that and
you know, still the same, right,still the same, and yeah, so I
got away from that.
(06:24):
So tell me, what are you, whatwas the most, you know,
memorable story that you hadduring that time and what was
the thing that it was sort of alife changing moment for you
during that time, as you areseemingly going through a
(06:46):
tremendous transition from.
Bob Martin (06:49):
Well, you know, yeah , in those days, in those days
in miami, you know, the italianswere talking to the haitians,
were talking to the colombians,were talking to the cubans,
talking to the peruvians, and somy clientele were all of those
folks.
And I guess the most dramaticcase I ever had was a death
penalty case for a soldier fromthe Medellin cartel, and that's
(07:11):
a long story, but it was allabout life or death.
And the fella, you know, wasraised by the Colombian Medellin
cartel, but only after he ranaway at 12 from his mother, who
was schizophrenic and had triedto kill him three times.
The guy turned out, he waseducated by the cartel and he
(07:32):
was the most gentle soul.
He had a swimmer's body, aboutsix foot four, snow white skin,
dark black eyes.
You know, as handsome as youcould possibly imagine and as
polite as you can, little didyou know that he was a monster
and would do anything the cartelasked him to do.
So he wound up killing thisfellow by wrapping his head in
(07:54):
duct tape and it was a deathpenalty case.
And the case wasn't about guiltor innocence, it was about life
or death.
And I argued to the jury that,yes, he is a monster, no
question, when it came to thedeath phase, but not a monster
of his own making.
And then I was able to bring inhis early life and the three
times that his mother tried tokill him, burn his head and
(08:18):
tortured him and did other kindsof things.
So the jury came back and theysaid life.
And I still get letters fromhim every once in a while oh,
wow, wow, that.
That that's the most dramaticstory, but that's not the story
of how the transformation cameabout.
Lionel (08:35):
Right, right, right.
So so tell us about thetransformation piece there.
Bob Martin (08:49):
Well, so I was going out with these guys in Miami in
those days, the days Miami Vicedays, a lot of chrome and glass
, disco nightclubs, and and Iwas hanging out with these guys
and just I was doing some stuff,snorting some things.
I shouldn't have been and mylife was kind of heading south.
And I think I need to say thatthe family I grew up in, my
folks were Eastern Europeanimmigrants.
My dad, both of all of theirfamilies, all of my ancestors
(09:11):
were wiped out by one group oranother, slaughtered Either the
Bolsheviks or the Nazis.
My mom was Roma, gypsy, my dadHungarian, and so they were I'm
not going to say they wereatheists, but they were
non-theists.
It wasn't a conversation thatwe had in our house.
They came to the conclusionthere couldn't possibly be a God
(09:34):
with allowing those things tohappen.
So I really didn't have anykind of spiritual background.
And then I got involved withthese guys and things started to
go south.
I was arrogant, I was full ofmyself I know of course the
white powder didn't help myperspective on that and I was
(10:01):
just barely maintaining my usein secret in the courthouse.
But at home life was goingsouth and I was seeing a
therapist and I came to a realcrossroads.
By the time I was 32 years old.
I had paid my house off and nowthings were going south and I
(10:26):
might have to refinance it and Iwent to ask him about that.
So, rather than sit there anddo the typical therapy well, how
do you feel about that, bob?
He reached behind and hegrabbed some coins.
He started shaking and throwingthe coins and counting them up
and making calculations anddrawing lines and doing all this
really weird stuff.
And finally he wrote a bignumber down and he opened a book
(10:50):
up to that chapter number andhe showed me the chapter and the
title was retreat and I I waspaying him 65 bucks an hour.
I just cursed him out, you know.
Lionel (11:03):
So what was that he?
So what was he doing?
Bob Martin (11:07):
Right, right, right.
So the advice was right and Iwent to this business.
I was trying to start up thatwas draining me dry and I closed
it and I went back and Iapologized to my wife and I just
decided I was going to get outof that rabbit hole and clean my
act up.
And I went back and I saw himand I asked him what it was and
he said that's the I Ching.
(11:28):
What's the I Ching?
He says it's a Taoist practice.
I said what's Taoism?
So it turns out that mytherapist, george Robinson, was
the primary disciple and theEnglish language editor for the
very prolific masterHua-Ching-Ni.
(11:49):
Listen to this A 72ndgeneration Taoist monk from the
Shaolin Temple.
You know Kung Fu?
Lionel (11:58):
You're talking about Hua-Ching-Ni right.
Bob Martin (12:00):
Did you say Hua-Ching-Ni, hua-ching-ni,
hua-ching?
Lionel (12:04):
Hua Qing Ni Okay.
Bob Martin (12:07):
H-U-A-C-H-I-N-G-N-I.
Okay, his last name was Ni, andin Chinese it's really Ni Hua
Qing.
But so he started to explain tome what Taoism was.
And here was, all of a sudden,this system of values and
(12:30):
virtues and generosity and graceand humility, how to live an
effective and efficient life,how to go with the flow and
float downstream, but not in anot give a heck way, but
(12:55):
carefully watching out for therocks and not running aground
and still directing the boat,but at least not trying to
paddle upstream.
Right.
And it didn't ask me to have tobelieve in anything that was
spiritual, it was just anowner's manual for being human,
and I took to it and I studiedunder Master Nee for eight years
that's when I had to come toNorth Carolina and then I
(13:21):
started.
So when I came to NorthCarolina it went from being a
mob lawyer to all public service.
I was just a different humanbeing.
I started my whole life overand went back to school, got a
master's in social work andeventually the crazy part about
it is here I am, I guess, aTaoist Buddhist, in a very
(13:44):
deeply Southern Christian town,right.
And I wound up marrying aSouthern Baptist Bible
literalist, right.
Lionel (13:55):
Yeah, so how does that?
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's abig mismatch.
Yeah, big mismatch.
Bob Martin (13:59):
Well you would think so, but our values were the
same.
She's a saint.
She sees somebody in need,she'll just move in and do
what's necessary, without eventhinking she should get a pat on
the back.
She's just a saint and shetruly believes in taking care of
the least of these.
(14:19):
I mean, she's devoted to takingcare of the least of these, as
Jesus said.
And she, funny, she would gooff to church sometimes and
she'd have like these sad bigeyes and go hey, honey, what's
what's wrong?
She goes oh, you know, I loveyou so much and I just hate it
that you're not going to go toheaven with me, because you know
(14:41):
I hadn't been saved and, and Iwould say to her, you know well
I'm, I hate it that you're notgoing to be reincarnated with me
, so so wait a minute.
Lionel (14:52):
So you know there are, there are.
I'm wondering how does, howdoes the?
What was the faith conflicty'all had?
Like?
Was that the only?
How did y'all deal with that?
Bob Martin (15:04):
Well, we didn't talk about it.
It was really hard for me tobelieve that she could believe
in all of the things thatscience said were impossible,
like the world being 4,000 yearsold or you know, creationism
and Adam and Eve, andah's arkand the like.
(15:25):
But she deeply believed inthose things and she'd look at
my stuff, the taoism and youknow it's like that confucius,
pithy little couplets and stuff,and she just thought you know,
that's just too weird, um, butwell, well, but hold on.
Lionel (15:43):
There's some gold nuggets here.
I I want to.
I want to just land us, justfor best practice, for a second.
So you're in a relationship, ina marriage that seems to be
fairly happy and but you havetwo different faith perspectives
right.
That, for many people, theirfaith is is a, it's a core value
to them.
(16:03):
It's very important.
It's sort of the centering forthem.
How did you handle conflictswith with your faith issue?
Well, with the different faiththere.
Bob Martin (16:15):
Yeah, we just, we just we just stayed away from
that.
But where our faith would showitself is if she would say you
know, I met this fellow todayand he needed blah, blah, blah
and I want to go do this and Iwould support her in that.
And I think, yeah, you know, Imean it was also, you know, I
remember hearing a quote fromJimmy Carter I am committed to
(16:38):
doing as much as I can whereverI can, whenever I can, for as
long as I can.
And I, that was my, that was mymotto of life.
And so here was somebody whowas my partner in that and it
was my partner in, in, in doingour stuff and taking care of us
and taking care of whatever,whatever we could, you know, in
(17:01):
the world around us, and we werejust partners in that and we
worked very well together.
You know, I would.
She was very detail oriented, Iwas very big picture oriented.
We would talk about somethingwe'd want to do and I give her
the big plan and then she wouldmake it.
So what happened is in Taoism.
(17:23):
All of the wisdom of Taoism iscontained in a book called the
Tao Te Ching, and Ching inChinese means a classical book,
and Tao means the way, whichthere's going to be an
interesting coincidence I'lltalk about in a minute and Te
(17:44):
means virtue, so the town canyou spell that for us, for
people listening?
tau is t-a-o, okay, tay is t-eand ching is c-h-i-n-g.
Got it and it is.
It is 81 short, very, veryone-page chapters.
(18:05):
I'm reaching up here to see ifI can.
Lionel (18:11):
There it is, there it is Good shot, it is.
Bob Martin (18:14):
It's 81 very short, pithy chapters.
Oops, I'm sorry.
What did I do?
I still got you.
Oh, you got me.
Okay, I'm sorry.
And it contains all of thewisdom of Taoism.
And then what would happen isshe would go off to church and
then I'd say, how was churchtoday?
(18:34):
And I was kind of interested.
And she would come back and shedidn't like the exclusivity of
her Southern baptism.
She didn't like the my way orthe highway passivity of her
Southern baptism.
She didn't like the my way orthe highway.
She didn't like that.
They didn't care about, um,they didn't care about the
environment.
Uh, they didn't recycle.
There was a lot of things.
She didn't like it, but it wasthe religion that she grew up in
(19:00):
.
And she would come and I wouldask her, like you know, what was
the sermon about today?
And she would tell me.
And, as she would say it to me,I would say, well, gee, that's
just like chapter 37 of the Dowto Jane.
So I would start to look atthat.
And then one day I readsomething and I said, well, I
wonder what the Bible says aboutthat.
So I Googled, googled what doesthe Bible say about this?
And so I got all these biblicalcitations and I started reading
(19:21):
through them all and it kind ofblew me away, because I
realized, um, and so I got allthese biblical citations and I
started reading through them alland it kind of blew me away
because I realized, well, thereain't nothing different about
this, this is the same thing,same stuff.
And so then what I said well,I'm going to try something, I'm
going to take a little, um, I'mgoing to take a little uh
passage from the Tao Te Chingand see if I can turn it into a
(19:48):
Christian prayer using the sameGive us an example.
Lionel (19:53):
Yeah, this is.
This is very, very interesting.
This is very.
It's just interesting because Ioften say on our program that
you'll find a lot of a lot ofprogram, that you'll find a lot
of, a lot of similarities insome.
All of our ancient faithtraditions, like, you'll find a
lot of similarities and I thinkthat's important because I think
(20:14):
it expresses their universalrules or universal principles.
That just makes us better humanbeings, and a part of that, bob
is me saying.
In addition, I think that thegoal of our faith traditions Are
(20:35):
to make us more of communalhuman beings, make us better,
although it totally explains tome.
Although it totally explains tome.
However, when you talk aboutyour wife's experience in the
Baptist church, how they werevery, very exclusive and didn't
believe in things like recyclingor taking care of the
(20:59):
environment, well, that has alot to do with their theological
belief systems that the worldis going to burn up anyway.
Right, so we live for the nextlife, we don't live for this
life.
Tell me why that's problematicand tell me if you could just
help us understand how you wereable to, how you were able to
(21:21):
sort of work through that withher.
Maybe some of the thetransitional moments she went
through so hearing yourexperience in Taoism and what it
says, and then what she wasdealing with, and then how she
worked through that, and thenhow you responded to that and
then then, then, then take us inwith that.
Bob Martin (21:39):
uh, some syncretism there, because that's kind of
what I well, like I say, Istarted looking at it and and
and and playing around with thelanguage and doing my research.
And you know, the more I, themore I talked to her and the
more I read and the more Istudied the Bible, the more it
(22:01):
became abundantly clear to methat it's the same stuff.
So I started writing and then,every once in a while, I'd
finish a chapter.
You know I'd be happy to readyou one.
They only take 30 seconds, 40seconds to read.
And I would read it to her andshe would look at it and she'd
go, wow, where did you get that?
(22:23):
That's so good.
And I would say, well, this isthe chapter in the Tao Te Ching
I got it from.
And she would read it and shegoes, wow, that's really amazing
.
And do another one, Do anotherone.
So eventually I did all 81chapters and this national
publisher, Kendall Hunt, pickedit up and published it.
What, yeah?
(22:43):
And she sits down and reads itlike a devotional now, every
single day, and every time Iwould give her another chapter
and read it.
All of a sudden we would havethis wonderful, deep discussion
about our faith.
Okay, All right, Okay, Okay.
Lionel (23:02):
So, okay, let's, let's, let's do a test run, all right,
okay?
So look, look what I got here,bob.
Okay, so, everyone who'slistening right now, bob and I,
I have my Bible.
Look at that big old old.
Do I need to get my glasses too?
I got my glasses and Bob'sgoing to read.
(23:22):
And there you go, he's going toread.
I'm the way we're going to talkabout his, his work there in a
moment.
I got your information for the,for the audience, and I'm going
to try to see if my brain willimmediately click with something
in the new Testament or in theProverbs or Psalms that sounds
very similar to what he's doing.
And if you guys have your Bible, if you're listening, I want
(23:45):
you to pull out your Bibles andI want you to kind of see if it
makes sense to you.
Okay, so you're on, bob, you'reon, let's do this.
Bob Martin (23:55):
Okay, so the very first chapter of the Tao Te
Ching.
I think you're going to be ableto connect it to Genesis
immediately.
It reads this is the Tao TeChing, you know, translated from
the Chinese into English theTao and remember the word Tao
means the way and what did Jesussay what did Jesus say?
Lionel (24:16):
I am the way I am, the way, the truth and the light.
Yes, there you go, so that'swhy I named the book I Am the
Way, because was Jesus saying Iam the way, or was he saying I
am the Tao?
I don't know, I don't know.
Bob Martin (24:34):
Okay, so here's how the first chapter reads the Tao
that can be described is not theeternal Tao.
The name that can be spoken isnot the eternal name.
The nameless is the boundary ofheaven and earth.
The named is the mother ofcreation.
Freed from desire, you can seethe hidden mystery by having
(24:56):
desire, you can only see what isvisibly real.
Yet mystery and reality emergefrom the same source.
The source is called darkness.
Darkness on from darkness, thebeginning of all understanding.
Yeah.
Lionel (25:13):
Okay.
Bob Martin (25:14):
So a little tough for the Western mind.
Lionel (25:16):
That is, that is, but but the one thing, that, okay.
So you said and I'm going to goto so now for the Bible
thumpers, for the Bible folk,right, you said darkness.
Right, it was darkness,darkness.
Then immediately my brainstarted hearing that, Right In
(25:39):
the beginning, right In thebeginning, god created the
heavens and the earth.
In the beginning, god createdthe heavens and the earth.
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the
surface of the deep and thespirit of God was moving upon
the surface of the water.
So, again, what you're sayingin the Tao, and then what I just
(26:00):
read, is that there's acommonality of what Things being
created from darkness.
There's a commonality of whatThings being created from
darkness.
Bob Martin (26:07):
There's darkness and also, if you read into that,
you'll feel the sense of mysteryyeah, that there's a mystery
there.
So there's both a mystery, andthen there's the creation.
So even Genesis talks aboutthis combination and
relationship between the mysteryand the creation, the things
(26:27):
that we can touch and feel andthat which we can only sense and
imagine.
Lionel (26:33):
Okay, let's do one more.
Let's do one more.
Bob Martin (26:42):
Wait.
Before we do, let me read whatI wrote in the Christian version
of chapter one.
Okay, so what I wrote, thatConnie would read my wife, she
would read it and she would getit immediately, and I think you
will too.
The God that can be describedis not the true God.
The name that can be spoken isnot the name of God, because,
remember, he said, I am, andeven among Jews, they never say
(27:03):
the name of God.
They have this unpronounceablename, yahweh, yahweh.
So the God that can bedescribed is not the true God.
The name that can be spoken isnot the name of God.
God is unnameable.
God is the origin.
Naming God is the beginning ofreligion.
Let go and you find God.
(27:26):
Holding on.
You see the creation.
The unnameable and the creationare ultimately the same.
Their source cannot be known.
All that can be known is that Iam is In the beginning.
There was emptiness.
Emptiness then creation.
Thus the mystery from which allwonders arise.
Lionel (27:50):
There you go, Boom Boom Okay let's do one more.
Bob Martin (27:58):
Okay, let's do.
I'll do chapter five from theTao Te Ching.
Lionel (28:04):
Okay, and remember, guys , the Tao Te Ching is spelled
T-A-O-T-E-C-H-I-N-G.
Bob Martin (28:15):
Oh wait, let me.
Let me just do chapter two.
Sure, so, from the Tao, whenpeople see things as beautiful,
ugliness is created.
When people see things as good,evil is created.
Being and non-being produceeach other, difficult and easy,
complement each other Long andshort, define each other.
(28:37):
High and low oppose each other.
Fore and aft follow each other.
Therefore, the master can actwithout doing anything and teach
without saying a word.
Things come her way and shedoes not stop them.
Things leave and she lets themgo.
She has without possessing andacts without any expectations.
(28:59):
When her work is done, shetakes no credit.
That is why it will lastforever.
So you can see, in the Tao TeChing, what they're teaching is
the idea of duality.
You know that when we creategood, we're also creating evil,
and so there might be a way ofunifying and having neither good
(29:19):
nor evil in a unity of justbeing different reflections, and
that's one of the Taoistprinciples.
Another Taoist principle iswu-wei doing, not doing, in
other words, understanding andmastering something to the point
where you can do it as anautomatic response in life.
And also there's thisnon-attachment, this sense of
(29:42):
non-attachment, and there's alsothis sense of not putting the
focus and the importance on thework and not on the person.
Right right.
Lionel (29:53):
Okay, so I have Isaiah.
I had to look this up real fast.
I have Isaiah 45 talking aboutduality.
Isaiah 45 says this that thereis no one beside me.
I'm the Lord.
There is no other.
I'm the one forming light andcreating darkness, casting
(30:22):
well-being and creating calamity.
I am the Lord who does allthese things.
Again, that's Isaiah 45, 7.
When the Lord is speaking tothe prophet and saying I created
there's duality here.
I created light and darkness.
(30:42):
If you want to look forcausality, it's me.
I'm doing, you know I'm so.
So that that's very, veryinteresting, very, very
interesting.
Bob Martin (30:52):
So also there's the idea that rain falls on the good
and evil.
Lionel (30:57):
Right, that's right.
Jesus said that it falls on thejust and the unjust.
Bob Martin (31:02):
Just in the unjust, and so Jesus does not decide on
what his gifts are going to,based on the things that we mere
mortals judge on.
They're all children of God,and so there is the duality.
But then there's also thatthey're all children of God, and
so they're all the same in thatregard.
So this is what I wrote inchapter two If you view some
(31:27):
things as beautiful, you'll viewothers as ugly.
If you judge some people asgood, you'll judge others as bad
.
Opposites create each other.
There's no easy withoutdifficult, no long without short
, no high without low, no beforewithout after.
But Christ transcends oppositeswithout after.
But Christ transcends opposites.
He acts without acting andteaches beyond his words.
(31:50):
He does not resist what is.
Thus his influence becomesirresistible.
He owns nothing, yet has all.
He acts without regard to whatpeople think.
He is Lord, yet sees others asequal.
He fashions miracles and shirkspride.
He places importance only onthe message.
(32:12):
When his work is done, he moveson.
That is why his works areeternal.
So you can see the Tao in that.
But then, as a Christian, youcan easily say that this is a
devotional talking about thecharacter of Jesus.
What kind of a person does he,and what is it about him that we
(32:33):
want to model, so that we canbe more Christ-like in our lives
?
Lionel (32:39):
Yeah, and you know what's powerful about that is it
really gets to the morality ofa thing.
It gets to the morality.
So what I mean by morality, itgets to the morality and ethics
of the principle, right?
So it's not always just aboutthe scripture.
(33:01):
So some people who arelistening to this, they're going
to go man, you're readingsomething from the Dow and
Bailey, now you're reading ascripture and you're you're
making these uh, uh things thatthe scripture would never say.
No, listen, an important piecefor for us to get is that our
Christian faith has principlesand ethics.
(33:24):
That does not exist fromnothing and nowhere, but there
were ancient principles, therewere cultural principles and
moralities that people followed,that were sort of universal,
and this is what the book ofProverbs talks about.
(33:45):
When it talks about in all,you're getting get understanding
.
Knowledge is one thing, butknowing how to apply that and
then knowing what is the ethicmotive and intent behind a thing
is very important, which iswhat Jesus promoted.
Instance you know, in theGospels of Matthew, some of the
(34:14):
religious leaders said to Jesuslook, why are your disciples not
washing their hands before theyeat?
And Jesus says well, you know,it's not so much about, it's not
what goes into the person, thatfiles, it's what comes out of a
person.
That's a principle.
What principle?
He got that from somewhere,more than likely probably from
Egypt, but there was someteaching and training, some
(34:42):
ancient teaching and trainingand wisdom that helped him
understand his Christian faiththat way.
So, okay, bob, we're going tocome back on the other side.
You hold on for a second.
We're going to take a quickbreak for our YouTube fans.
Okay, just a second.
Well, man, we're having awonderful conversation with Bob
Martin.
We're talking about all thedifferences and the similarities
between our faith group.
(35:02):
So here's what I need you to doIf you're listening to this, I
want you to make sure you go toour YouTube page Words for
Change YouTube page where youcan learn more.
If you are watching this, youcan see this pop up on the
screen right now.
There's information there foryou.
Also, I want you to go ahead onand subscribe.
(35:25):
Go ahead on and subscribe toour YouTube page and you can
make sure that you join us hereon Apple's podcast, spotify, and
you can send me a message.
Let me know.
Listen, I want to hear anepisode about this, and this
episode that you're doing withBob was great.
Here's some questions that Ihave for Bob, and we'll do our
(35:49):
best and make sure we answerthose questions.
Okay, so, bob, as we moveforward to the next stage, now
that we've you've transitioned,you, you're in Taoism or you're
practicing as a part of your,your spiritual development, tell
(36:18):
us what work are you doing nowthat?
Bob Martin (36:20):
your Taoist is feeding and how you serve the
world.
Well, so I went, I was baptizedfive years ago, six years ago
now, in the United Church ofChrist, which is a progressive
church, and our particularchurch is broad enough in its
(36:42):
philosophy to be able it's funny, this is a funny story.
So I can say the UCC is apretty progressive church, right
, and I always thought that ayou know, I, always I as the
more that I read and the morethat I learned about Chris, even
early on in my life, when I wasintroduced to Jesus for the
(37:04):
first time, I always loved himas I saw him as a great master,
as a wisdom master.
The question of his divinity,I'll be very honest with you,
even today, is something which Ijust consider to be above my
pay grade and not particularlyimportant, because I honor the
(37:26):
teachings and I honor who he was.
We had a good conversation inmy Sunday school class once and
it was this If a person claimsto be a Christian and believes
in the divinity of Christ butdoesn't follow his ways and is
(37:46):
greedy and is harmful, is he aChristian?
And in the other way, if aperson follows the ways of Jesus
and acts the way that Jesuswould like him to act, but
doesn't believe in the divinityof Jesus.
Is he a Christian?
So those, those are you know,kind of questions that I have.
(38:08):
So now Connie is very happybecause I'm going to be saved.
I'm saved, but you know, toanswer your question, it really
needs going into.
The question of what about?
This exclusivity thing issomething which turns a lot of
(38:30):
people off from the churchbecause it's just hard to
believe that 90% or 70% of theworld is condemned to hell.
It's just hard for people toaccept that whole thing and I
have some thoughts on that andI'm fortunate that I go to a
(38:50):
church where I can express thosethoughts.
But you know, people always areciting John 3.16,.
You know, no one can get to theFather except through me, and I
question whether a spiritualbeing, when they said the word
me, would be referring to thesack of skin that existed on the
planet or was referring totheir spiritual nature.
(39:12):
If me referred to unconditionallove and you substitute that
for me, then it would read noone could get to the father
without engaging inunconditional love.
Now that makes a lot of senseand like.
And the other thing that I kindof believe is that, you know,
(39:37):
people talk about the Trinitythe Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit, and that they are allone God in three manifestations,
which would mean that Godequals Jesus, equals the Holy
Spirit.
And I don't know anybody thatdoesn't believe that the holy
spirit was, has boundaries andonly exists in certain countries
(39:58):
.
And it seems to me that theholy spirit is, is, is, is a
force for good that inspirespeople all over the world, which
means that jesus inspirespeople all over the world, and
so means that Jesus inspirespeople all over the world.
And so you know, if you, if youhave a broader view of John 3,
16, and you take into thespiritual aspects of it, then
(40:22):
you know we're all, we're allsaved.
Lionel (40:26):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's definitely a universalist
viewpoint of salvation and thereason why, particularly For
even I'm just going to say thisfor evangelicals that those are
some of the people who follow menot all, but some and I and I
appreciate them.
For them it's about doctrine,it's about right, doctrine,
(40:53):
right, and that that is the,that is the maximum, even though
they would probably not wantand phrases which I get it.
I understand all of that Onceyou begin to grow and see
(41:18):
different perspectives.
For instance, not allChristians, I would just say, in
the United States in particular, I mean I can go drill down
deeper than that they don't allbelieve in the Trinitarian
belief, right.
There's a faction in thePentecostal church called
oneness doctrine, where theybelieve that Jesus, that God,
(41:43):
jesus, what they call homoousis,but that Jesus wasn't God.
God is the only God, it canonly be one God, which is why
they call it oneness doctrine,right.
And then, when you get to theCouncil of Nicaea 325, the big
split was over what?
(42:03):
The divinity of Christ?
Was he man and God, or was heman?
Well, guess what?
The Western Church won thatargument, which is why we have
it in our canon in the West, butguess what the Eastern church
don't hold fast to a Trinitariandoctrine to understand that
(42:28):
theology is a working practiceof trying to give voice, word
and explanation to this mysteryand thing we call God.
That's Jesus' representation ofthat.
Bob Martin (42:43):
That's why yeah, that's why one of the symbols of
the UCC church is a comma.
I love that.
God is still speaking.
That's right.
It's not the end.
Lionel (42:58):
You know and you know in the, in the, if you are, if you
grew up in the South and you'rewent Baptist, you believe in
dispensationalism, Every part ofyour, of the Christian faith at
least, as there's many ways,I'm just trying not to be
(43:19):
complicated for everyone.
So dispensationalism basicallysaying that God does certain
things at certain times inhistory.
Well, in some of thePentecostal doctrine, some of
them believe indispensationalism, but with the
caveat.
The caveat is God's stillworking in this day and time, so
God didn't just stop workingwith the Bible, but that that
(43:42):
message is continuing on andthat God is still speaking and
moving today, which is why yousee people in the Pentecostal
church still have the titleWatch this apostle, why you see
people in the Pentecostal churchstill have the title watch this
apostle.
So, whereas in dispossessionismand in some dispossession
teachings, particularly in theSouth, there are no other
apostles, I don't know ifrecently you've heard in the
(44:03):
news, a pastor by the name ofTony Evans, who's a large in the
evangelical world right, Gotcaught up in something that you
know.
No one really knows what it isbecause when they gave the
church gave a statement, he gavea statement.
It was a very, very vague andI'm not using that for clickbait
.
I'm just saying he's one ofthose individuals that believe
(44:25):
that women can be preachers inchurches.
He has a large following.
He's actually a distant mentorof mine, right.
So I don't.
He doesn't believe in the titleof apostle, but there are so
many other things that he's donethat have been very, very
helpful to the African-Americancommunity and just the church
community at large, right?
(44:45):
So I'll say all of that.
So tell us about your book, aswe kind of wrap up here.
Tell us about your book, and asyou're talking about, I want to
make sure that I show peoplewhat you, what you're working on
, at least a book that you havepermission to throw one little
bug in the ointment here.
Bob Martin (45:37):
Bible are also reflected almost verbatim in
Buddhist sutras that werewritten 500 years before Jesus
lived, almost verbatim.
And he was not recorded fromthe time that he was 13 to 32.
So where was he?
And there is a lot of evidencethat he actually did travel in
India and Tibet and taught andlearned and returned and much of
(46:04):
what he preached was verysimilar to Buddhist teachings,
was very similar to Buddhistteachings.
So there may be much more tothe history here than we have
any idea.
And if I could just tell you oneother quick little story, when
I came to North Carolina, I was,I went back, I started my whole
(46:24):
career over, I went back and Ibecame a DA district attorney
and you know you get asked andinvited to go speak at places.
So I got asked to come to aPentecostal church and I went
and I spoke about, you know,search warrants and the drug and
drugs were just cocaine andcrack was just kidding Alamance
County here in North Carolina.
(46:46):
So I talked about all that andthen the preacher took me back
to his office and he had anenvelope for me which is an
honorarium, which I didn'texpect, and he he asked me you
know my religion and you know, Ididn't want to say Buddhist,
but I'd been to a bunch ofUnitarian churches.
(47:06):
So I said Unitarian and his the, the blood just drained out of
his face and he looked at me andhe goes Sir, we here are
Trinitarians.
And without another word he gotup and he walked to the door,
to the outside, and he openedhis door and he didn't even look
(47:28):
me in the eye and I walked outthe door.
He did not give me thatenvelope.
Lionel (47:34):
Wow, Wow.
There's something wrong withthat right.
Bob Martin (47:42):
Yeah, there is something, but just goes to show
that people are loyal to theirbelief systems.
Lionel (47:49):
Very much so, very much so so anyway about my book.
Bob Martin (47:52):
What would you like to know?
Lionel (47:54):
Yeah, so.
So tell everyone where they canfind the book.
Where is it?
You know, I think people wantto know that.
Okay, also your website and soon.
So people on YouTube, they'llsee you put it up for the
audience listening.
They won't be able to, so yeah,Right.
Bob Martin (48:17):
So the book is called I Am the Way Finding the
Truth in the Life Through aBiblical Reimagining of the Tao
is the name of it, and it has acopy on Amazon.
Find it on Amazon or they cango to my website and I've got a
lot of portions from the book onthe website and it's I am the
way bookcom.
Lionel (48:35):
There it is so if you're watching on YouTube, you see it
pop up.
Now I am the way bookcom andhe's got all.
Bob has all this stuff therefor you as well.
So I am the way and I'll makesure.
Look at that, that's pretty.
I am the way and I'll make sure.
Look at that, that's pretty.
I am the way the book.
This book explores theinterfaith spiritual harmony,
(48:56):
creating a bridge betweeneastern and christian wisdom,
expressing the chapters of thetitle ching tile dal te ching,
and biblical language forming adevotional.
Very good, very, very good.
So that's there for you andI'll make sure that, uh, that
(49:16):
information, uh, the link toBob's website, is put in the
show notes as well.
Bob Martin (49:23):
And there's a contact, there are contact
buttons there and, um, ifanybody ever wants to do a
little Bible Bible study or astudy on it, or have me come by
virtually on Zoom to talk to aclass or to do something, I'm
available, no charge.
I'm happy to do it.
Lionel (49:42):
Very good, that sounds like something we should do.
I think people will appreciatethat.
So, bob, what closing wordwould you have for our audience
today, whether something fromyour book or principle that you
live by, something that willhelp them in their life, in
their faith journey?
Bob Martin (50:05):
Whatever you do for the least of these, you do for
the Lord.
Just live your life on thatbasis.
But I wake up in the morningand I take my dogs out to this
elementary school that's nearby.
It has a big playground in itand I can sit there on the bench
as my dogs play around and Iwatch the sunrise.
(50:26):
And what I say to myself in themorning is well, lord, this is
going to be another day and it'sgoing to be a day of my life,
and whenever I leave in it I'mtrading a day of my life.
For that I am trading it.
So it's important.
So by the end of the day, letme please make sure that I leave
(50:51):
something good in it.
Lionel (50:54):
Amen, well said, well said.
And if I reinterpret thatChristian, I'm just kidding.
I always say Lord, give us thisday our daily bread.
You know, don't give us toomuch that we will be unthankful.
You know, don't give us toomuch that we will be unthankful.
Don't give us so much, I meantoo little, that we would be
grunge resentful, but give usjust what we need to get through
(51:20):
the day.
Bob Martin (51:21):
You know Buddhist monks.
They leave their monasteries inthe morning and they have a
small little offering bowl thatthey carry with them in their
hands and it holds just enoughrice for one day, just one day.
And they go out into thecommunity and people take care
(51:42):
of them and they fill their bowland they go back and they have
their food for one day, one day,and they go out next.
Give us this day, well holdtight right there, brother.
Lionel (51:53):
Wow, what a conversation we've had with Bob Martin.
I don't know about you, but mybrain is firing on all cylinders
as I consider what are thecommonalities, how we can take
the wisdom from the other faithtraditions and let that wisdom
(52:14):
speak and encourage our livesand our spiritual growth as well
, and I want to encourage you todo that.
I want to encourage you to prayand ask God for direction.
You don't have to do what I'mdoing, or you don't have to do
it simply because I'm suggesting, but what you have to do that's
critical to your faith is knowthat there are different ways,
(52:37):
that there are different modesof wisdom, there are different
books of teaching, there aredifferent religious experiences
that we can all learn from, andthat's what this is all about.
Well, bob, my friend, thank youso much for joining us here on
the Words for Change podcast.
And again, you guys can checkout all Bob's information.
(52:57):
His book will be down in theshow notes and you can find his
book on Amazon, and wedefinitely appreciate Bob for
coming through and sharing withus today.
All right, so y'all be good.
We'll see you on the other side.
Well, hey, welcome to the Words for Change podcast.
I am excited because we have anopportunity to reconnect to our
faith, and there's so manydifferent ways we can do that,
but our goal here is for thoseof you who are in search for
your Christian faith toreconnect to the message of
(00:21):
Jesus, to the words of Jesus, tothe practicality of what Jesus
brings to our lives.
This episode is going to begood for you.
It's going to be very helpfulfor you.
My name is Lionel, I'm the hostof this podcast and I have a
special guest who is here withus today.
Bob, how are you doing today,good sir, I'm doing great.
Bob Martin (00:44):
Thank you for having me.
It's a real pleasure to be here.
Lionel (00:47):
Absolutely, we're happy to have you.
And so, bob, why don't you tellpeople who you are and what
blessings or goodness do youbring to the world?
Bob Martin (01:00):
So it's been a long life.
I'm 74 years old and I guessthe best thing I can say and the
best definition of who I amtoday is I'm a happy guy who has
the blessings of the love of mysecond wife and both of our all
of our children andgrandchildren, and I have
opportunities to serve thecommunity and serve the Lord.
Have opportunities to serve thecommunity and serve the Lord.
Lionel (01:24):
So, Bob, how do you serve the community?
Communal change is a big partof what we aspire to do and be
with our Words for Changecommunity.
Bob Martin (01:39):
So how do you serve the community?
So I am a part of the communityand I'm a part of the world,
and everyone that I come intocontact with is a part of the
community and a part of theworld.
So, as Mother Teresa once said,you know, we can't change the
whole world, but we can changeour little corner of it.
So every difference that I canmake in a life is a way of
(02:04):
changing and serving mycommunity.
Then there's, of course, alsothe institutional things, like
serving my church and being acommunity advocate and getting
into politics and freedoms andrights and stuff like that, but
mostly it's all about thatone-on-one relationship that you
have with folks that make adifference in their lives.
Lionel (02:21):
So what did you do in the political sphere?
How did you, how were youinvolved in that, in that part
of your life?
I'll let you tell your storyand then I'll tell my story.
Bob Martin (02:34):
Well, you know, if we get into politics, we have to
take a look at the fact thatthis is an inflection point that
we're at, and I think that thechoice is very dire and very
important and very um very grave, uh, that we're coming up in
the next election, and I thinkthat understanding and not
(02:55):
having a superficial knowledgeof things so that you can make
an informed decision, um is, uh,it's just real important these
days.
Um, so, uh, that's the thepolitical end of it.
Uh, but I spent 40 years as a?
Uh criminal trial attorney,both as a prosecutor, um for
(03:16):
Janet Reno, uh, back in thecocaine days.
You know if you ever seen themovie Scarface?
Lionel (03:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bob Martin (03:24):
Well, those are the days that I was in Miami doing
that stuff and I prosecuted andI was also a mob lawyer for some
years.
Lionel (03:36):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
You just can't go over that.
You said you were a mob lawyer.
Yeah, yeah yeah, I mean tell usabout that.
Bob Martin (03:48):
Well, when I was working in the DA's office, we
were in the Economic Crimes andConsumer Frauds Division and we
hit the mob up for a good sizeof money.
Shortly thereafter I left theoffice and I'll call him Johnny,
okay.
And basically the conversationwas you know, you gotta be
pretty good to hit us up forthat much money.
(04:09):
We'd like to see some clients.
So I got involved in all thatand yeah, yeah, so.
Lionel (04:22):
so how did you make the transition?
How did you get out of that?
That's the best.
Bob Martin (04:28):
Yeah Well.
Lionel (04:30):
I mean you can tell me.
Bob Martin (04:32):
Yeah, no, no, it's it's, it's it's we.
We parted on good terms.
We had a very good relationship.
You know, I find that folksthat are in the business of
crime are very good businessmenand we had a very good
arrangement that I wouldn't doanything illegal and unethical,
(04:52):
and they said that that was intheir best interest, because
they wanted a lawyer who wasrespected by the court and whose
word was gold.
And so we met on those valuesand we did.
You know, we, we workedtogether.
But then came a time whenJohnny's son got arrested on a
15 year minimum mandatorycocaine trafficking charge, and
(05:16):
then there was no saying no tohim.
He wanted me to do this and todo that, which I wasn't willing
to do.
So I thought that moving toNorth Carolina might be.
Lionel (05:29):
Well, I'll tell you.
Bob Martin (05:32):
I did and we shook hands and he said yeah,
sometimes a man just has to moveon and this way we can part
friends and never heard fromthem again.
Lionel (05:40):
Well, you know, bob, I was on the lower end of that, as
a young kid, teenager, who grewup in a poverty stricken area.
I was on the bottom of that,you know, involved with all
kinds of illegal activity notall kinds, but primarily with
drugs primarily and, man, youknow, the only way I got out of
it was because I had a deaththreat over my life and the word
(06:04):
was out on the street that ithad a hit on me and so I had to
get out of town and my familydid everything in their power to
get me out of town.
So you were sort of at adifferent angle with that and
you know, still the same, right,still the same, and yeah, so I
got away from that.
(06:24):
So tell me, what are you, whatwas the most, you know,
memorable story that you hadduring that time and what was
the thing that it was sort of alife changing moment for you
during that time, as you areseemingly going through a
(06:46):
tremendous transition from.
Bob Martin (06:49):
Well, you know, yeah , in those days, in those days
in miami, you know, the italianswere talking to the haitians,
were talking to the colombians,were talking to the cubans,
talking to the peruvians, and somy clientele were all of those
folks.
And I guess the most dramaticcase I ever had was a death
penalty case for a soldier fromthe Medellin cartel, and that's
(07:11):
a long story, but it was allabout life or death.
And the fella, you know, wasraised by the Colombian Medellin
cartel, but only after he ranaway at 12 from his mother, who
was schizophrenic and had triedto kill him three times.
The guy turned out, he waseducated by the cartel and he
(07:32):
was the most gentle soul.
He had a swimmer's body, aboutsix foot four, snow white skin,
dark black eyes.
You know, as handsome as youcould possibly imagine and as
polite as you can, little didyou know that he was a monster
and would do anything the cartelasked him to do.
So he wound up killing thisfellow by wrapping his head in
(07:54):
duct tape and it was a deathpenalty case.
And the case wasn't about guiltor innocence, it was about life
or death.
And I argued to the jury that,yes, he is a monster, no
question, when it came to thedeath phase, but not a monster
of his own making.
And then I was able to bring inhis early life and the three
times that his mother tried tokill him, burn his head and
(08:18):
tortured him and did other kindsof things.
So the jury came back and theysaid life.
And I still get letters fromhim every once in a while oh,
wow, wow, that.
That that's the most dramaticstory, but that's not the story
of how the transformation cameabout.
Lionel (08:35):
Right, right, right.
So so tell us about thetransformation piece there.
Bob Martin (08:49):
Well, so I was going out with these guys in Miami in
those days, the days Miami Vicedays, a lot of chrome and glass
, disco nightclubs, and and Iwas hanging out with these guys
and just I was doing some stuff,snorting some things.
I shouldn't have been and mylife was kind of heading south.
And I think I need to say thatthe family I grew up in, my
folks were Eastern Europeanimmigrants.
My dad, both of all of theirfamilies, all of my ancestors
(09:11):
were wiped out by one group oranother, slaughtered Either the
Bolsheviks or the Nazis.
My mom was Roma, gypsy, my dadHungarian, and so they were I'm
not going to say they wereatheists, but they were
non-theists.
It wasn't a conversation thatwe had in our house.
They came to the conclusionthere couldn't possibly be a God
(09:34):
with allowing those things tohappen.
So I really didn't have anykind of spiritual background.
And then I got involved withthese guys and things started to
go south.
I was arrogant, I was full ofmyself I know of course the
white powder didn't help myperspective on that and I was
(10:01):
just barely maintaining my usein secret in the courthouse.
But at home life was goingsouth and I was seeing a
therapist and I came to a realcrossroads.
By the time I was 32 years old.
I had paid my house off and nowthings were going south and I
(10:26):
might have to refinance it and Iwent to ask him about that.
So, rather than sit there anddo the typical therapy well, how
do you feel about that, bob?
He reached behind and hegrabbed some coins.
He started shaking and throwingthe coins and counting them up
and making calculations anddrawing lines and doing all this
really weird stuff.
And finally he wrote a bignumber down and he opened a book
(10:50):
up to that chapter number andhe showed me the chapter and the
title was retreat and I I waspaying him 65 bucks an hour.
I just cursed him out, you know.
Lionel (11:03):
So what was that he?
So what was he doing?
Bob Martin (11:07):
Right, right, right.
So the advice was right and Iwent to this business.
I was trying to start up thatwas draining me dry and I closed
it and I went back and Iapologized to my wife and I just
decided I was going to get outof that rabbit hole and clean my
act up.
And I went back and I saw himand I asked him what it was and
he said that's the I Ching.
(11:28):
What's the I Ching?
He says it's a Taoist practice.
I said what's Taoism?
So it turns out that mytherapist, george Robinson, was
the primary disciple and theEnglish language editor for the
very prolific masterHua-Ching-Ni.
(11:49):
Listen to this A 72ndgeneration Taoist monk from the
Shaolin Temple.
You know Kung Fu?
Lionel (11:58):
You're talking about Hua-Ching-Ni right.
Bob Martin (12:00):
Did you say Hua-Ching-Ni, hua-ching-ni,
hua-ching?
Lionel (12:04):
Hua Qing Ni Okay.
Bob Martin (12:07):
H-U-A-C-H-I-N-G-N-I.
Okay, his last name was Ni, andin Chinese it's really Ni Hua
Qing.
But so he started to explain tome what Taoism was.
And here was, all of a sudden,this system of values and
(12:30):
virtues and generosity and graceand humility, how to live an
effective and efficient life,how to go with the flow and
float downstream, but not in anot give a heck way, but
(12:55):
carefully watching out for therocks and not running aground
and still directing the boat,but at least not trying to
paddle upstream.
Right.
And it didn't ask me to have tobelieve in anything that was
spiritual, it was just anowner's manual for being human,
and I took to it and I studiedunder Master Nee for eight years
that's when I had to come toNorth Carolina and then I
(13:21):
started.
So when I came to NorthCarolina it went from being a
mob lawyer to all public service.
I was just a different humanbeing.
I started my whole life overand went back to school, got a
master's in social work andeventually the crazy part about
it is here I am, I guess, aTaoist Buddhist, in a very
(13:44):
deeply Southern Christian town,right.
And I wound up marrying aSouthern Baptist Bible
literalist, right.
Lionel (13:55):
Yeah, so how does that?
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's abig mismatch.
Yeah, big mismatch.
Bob Martin (13:59):
Well you would think so, but our values were the
same.
She's a saint.
She sees somebody in need,she'll just move in and do
what's necessary, without eventhinking she should get a pat on
the back.
She's just a saint and shetruly believes in taking care of
the least of these.
(14:19):
I mean, she's devoted to takingcare of the least of these, as
Jesus said.
And she, funny, she would gooff to church sometimes and
she'd have like these sad bigeyes and go hey, honey, what's
what's wrong?
She goes oh, you know, I loveyou so much and I just hate it
that you're not going to go toheaven with me, because you know
(14:41):
I hadn't been saved and, and Iwould say to her, you know well
I'm, I hate it that you're notgoing to be reincarnated with me
, so so wait a minute.
Lionel (14:52):
So you know there are, there are.
I'm wondering how does, howdoes the?
What was the faith conflicty'all had?
Like?
Was that the only?
How did y'all deal with that?
Bob Martin (15:04):
Well, we didn't talk about it.
It was really hard for me tobelieve that she could believe
in all of the things thatscience said were impossible,
like the world being 4,000 yearsold or you know, creationism
and Adam and Eve, andah's arkand the like.
(15:25):
But she deeply believed inthose things and she'd look at
my stuff, the taoism and youknow it's like that confucius,
pithy little couplets and stuff,and she just thought you know,
that's just too weird, um, butwell, well, but hold on.
Lionel (15:43):
There's some gold nuggets here.
I I want to.
I want to just land us, justfor best practice, for a second.
So you're in a relationship, ina marriage that seems to be
fairly happy and but you havetwo different faith perspectives
right.
That, for many people, theirfaith is is a, it's a core value
to them.
(16:03):
It's very important.
It's sort of the centering forthem.
How did you handle conflictswith with your faith issue?
Well, with the different faiththere.
Bob Martin (16:15):
Yeah, we just, we just we just stayed away from
that.
But where our faith would showitself is if she would say you
know, I met this fellow todayand he needed blah, blah, blah
and I want to go do this and Iwould support her in that.
And I think, yeah, you know, Imean it was also, you know, I
remember hearing a quote fromJimmy Carter I am committed to
(16:38):
doing as much as I can whereverI can, whenever I can, for as
long as I can.
And I, that was my, that was mymotto of life.
And so here was somebody whowas my partner in that and it
was my partner in, in, in doingour stuff and taking care of us
and taking care of whatever,whatever we could, you know, in
(17:01):
the world around us, and we werejust partners in that and we
worked very well together.
You know, I would.
She was very detail oriented, Iwas very big picture oriented.
We would talk about somethingwe'd want to do and I give her
the big plan and then she wouldmake it.
So what happened is in Taoism.
(17:23):
All of the wisdom of Taoism iscontained in a book called the
Tao Te Ching, and Ching inChinese means a classical book,
and Tao means the way, whichthere's going to be an
interesting coincidence I'lltalk about in a minute and Te
(17:44):
means virtue, so the town canyou spell that for us, for
people listening?
tau is t-a-o, okay, tay is t-eand ching is c-h-i-n-g.
Got it and it is.
It is 81 short, very, veryone-page chapters.
(18:05):
I'm reaching up here to see ifI can.
Lionel (18:11):
There it is, there it is Good shot, it is.
Bob Martin (18:14):
It's 81 very short, pithy chapters.
Oops, I'm sorry.
What did I do?
I still got you.
Oh, you got me.
Okay, I'm sorry.
And it contains all of thewisdom of Taoism.
And then what would happen isshe would go off to church and
then I'd say, how was churchtoday?
(18:34):
And I was kind of interested.
And she would come back and shedidn't like the exclusivity of
her Southern baptism.
She didn't like the my way orthe highway passivity of her
Southern baptism.
She didn't like the my way orthe highway.
She didn't like that.
They didn't care about, um,they didn't care about the
environment.
Uh, they didn't recycle.
There was a lot of things.
She didn't like it, but it wasthe religion that she grew up in
(19:00):
.
And she would come and I wouldask her, like you know, what was
the sermon about today?
And she would tell me.
And, as she would say it to me,I would say, well, gee, that's
just like chapter 37 of the Dowto Jane.
So I would start to look atthat.
And then one day I readsomething and I said, well, I
wonder what the Bible says aboutthat.
So I Googled, googled what doesthe Bible say about this?
And so I got all these biblicalcitations and I started reading
(19:21):
through them all and it kind ofblew me away, because I
realized, um, and so I got allthese biblical citations and I
started reading through them alland it kind of blew me away
because I realized, well, thereain't nothing different about
this, this is the same thing,same stuff.
And so then what I said well,I'm going to try something, I'm
going to take a little, um, I'mgoing to take a little uh
passage from the Tao Te Chingand see if I can turn it into a
(19:48):
Christian prayer using the sameGive us an example.
Lionel (19:53):
Yeah, this is.
This is very, very interesting.
This is very.
It's just interesting because Ioften say on our program that
you'll find a lot of a lot ofprogram, that you'll find a lot
of, a lot of similarities insome.
All of our ancient faithtraditions, like, you'll find a
lot of similarities and I thinkthat's important because I think
(20:14):
it expresses their universalrules or universal principles.
That just makes us better humanbeings, and a part of that, bob
is me saying.
In addition, I think that thegoal of our faith traditions Are
(20:35):
to make us more of communalhuman beings, make us better,
although it totally explains tome.
Although it totally explains tome.
However, when you talk aboutyour wife's experience in the
Baptist church, how they werevery, very exclusive and didn't
believe in things like recyclingor taking care of the
(20:59):
environment, well, that has alot to do with their theological
belief systems that the worldis going to burn up anyway.
Right, so we live for the nextlife, we don't live for this
life.
Tell me why that's problematicand tell me if you could just
help us understand how you wereable to, how you were able to
(21:21):
sort of work through that withher.
Maybe some of the thetransitional moments she went
through so hearing yourexperience in Taoism and what it
says, and then what she wasdealing with, and then how she
worked through that, and thenhow you responded to that and
then then, then, then take us inwith that.
Bob Martin (21:39):
uh, some syncretism there, because that's kind of
what I well, like I say, Istarted looking at it and and
and and playing around with thelanguage and doing my research.
And you know, the more I, themore I talked to her and the
more I read and the more Istudied the Bible, the more it
(22:01):
became abundantly clear to methat it's the same stuff.
So I started writing and then,every once in a while, I'd
finish a chapter.
You know I'd be happy to readyou one.
They only take 30 seconds, 40seconds to read.
And I would read it to her andshe would look at it and she'd
go, wow, where did you get that?
(22:23):
That's so good.
And I would say, well, this isthe chapter in the Tao Te Ching
I got it from.
And she would read it and shegoes, wow, that's really amazing
.
And do another one, Do anotherone.
So eventually I did all 81chapters and this national
publisher, Kendall Hunt, pickedit up and published it.
What, yeah?
(22:43):
And she sits down and reads itlike a devotional now, every
single day, and every time Iwould give her another chapter
and read it.
All of a sudden we would havethis wonderful, deep discussion
about our faith.
Okay, All right, Okay, Okay.
Lionel (23:02):
So, okay, let's, let's, let's do a test run, all right,
okay?
So look, look what I got here,bob.
Okay, so, everyone who'slistening right now, bob and I,
I have my Bible.
Look at that big old old.
Do I need to get my glasses too?
I got my glasses and Bob'sgoing to read.
(23:22):
And there you go, he's going toread.
I'm the way we're going to talkabout his, his work there in a
moment.
I got your information for the,for the audience, and I'm going
to try to see if my brain willimmediately click with something
in the new Testament or in theProverbs or Psalms that sounds
very similar to what he's doing.
And if you guys have your Bible, if you're listening, I want
(23:45):
you to pull out your Bibles andI want you to kind of see if it
makes sense to you.
Okay, so you're on, bob, you'reon, let's do this.
Bob Martin (23:55):
Okay, so the very first chapter of the Tao Te
Ching.
I think you're going to be ableto connect it to Genesis
immediately.
It reads this is the Tao TeChing, you know, translated from
the Chinese into English theTao and remember the word Tao
means the way and what did Jesussay what did Jesus say?
Lionel (24:16):
I am the way I am, the way, the truth and the light.
Yes, there you go, so that'swhy I named the book I Am the
Way, because was Jesus saying Iam the way, or was he saying I
am the Tao?
I don't know, I don't know.
Bob Martin (24:34):
Okay, so here's how the first chapter reads the Tao
that can be described is not theeternal Tao.
The name that can be spoken isnot the eternal name.
The nameless is the boundary ofheaven and earth.
The named is the mother ofcreation.
Freed from desire, you can seethe hidden mystery by having
(24:56):
desire, you can only see what isvisibly real.
Yet mystery and reality emergefrom the same source.
The source is called darkness.
Darkness on from darkness, thebeginning of all understanding.
Yeah.
Lionel (25:13):
Okay.
Bob Martin (25:14):
So a little tough for the Western mind.
Lionel (25:16):
That is, that is, but but the one thing, that, okay.
So you said and I'm going to goto so now for the Bible
thumpers, for the Bible folk,right, you said darkness.
Right, it was darkness,darkness.
Then immediately my brainstarted hearing that, Right In
(25:39):
the beginning, right In thebeginning, god created the
heavens and the earth.
In the beginning, god createdthe heavens and the earth.
The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the
surface of the deep and thespirit of God was moving upon
the surface of the water.
So, again, what you're sayingin the Tao, and then what I just
(26:00):
read, is that there's acommonality of what Things being
created from darkness.
There's a commonality of whatThings being created from
darkness.
Bob Martin (26:07):
There's darkness and also, if you read into that,
you'll feel the sense of mysteryyeah, that there's a mystery
there.
So there's both a mystery, andthen there's the creation.
So even Genesis talks aboutthis combination and
relationship between the mysteryand the creation, the things
(26:27):
that we can touch and feel andthat which we can only sense and
imagine.
Lionel (26:33):
Okay, let's do one more.
Let's do one more.
Bob Martin (26:42):
Wait.
Before we do, let me read whatI wrote in the Christian version
of chapter one.
Okay, so what I wrote, thatConnie would read my wife, she
would read it and she would getit immediately, and I think you
will too.
The God that can be describedis not the true God.
The name that can be spoken isnot the name of God, because,
remember, he said, I am, andeven among Jews, they never say
(27:03):
the name of God.
They have this unpronounceablename, yahweh, yahweh.
So the God that can bedescribed is not the true God.
The name that can be spoken isnot the name of God.
God is unnameable.
God is the origin.
Naming God is the beginning ofreligion.
Let go and you find God.
(27:26):
Holding on.
You see the creation.
The unnameable and the creationare ultimately the same.
Their source cannot be known.
All that can be known is that Iam is In the beginning.
There was emptiness.
Emptiness then creation.
Thus the mystery from which allwonders arise.
Lionel (27:50):
There you go, Boom Boom Okay let's do one more.
Bob Martin (27:58):
Okay, let's do.
I'll do chapter five from theTao Te Ching.
Lionel (28:04):
Okay, and remember, guys , the Tao Te Ching is spelled
T-A-O-T-E-C-H-I-N-G.
Bob Martin (28:15):
Oh wait, let me.
Let me just do chapter two.
Sure, so, from the Tao, whenpeople see things as beautiful,
ugliness is created.
When people see things as good,evil is created.
Being and non-being produceeach other, difficult and easy,
complement each other Long andshort, define each other.
(28:37):
High and low oppose each other.
Fore and aft follow each other.
Therefore, the master can actwithout doing anything and teach
without saying a word.
Things come her way and shedoes not stop them.
Things leave and she lets themgo.
She has without possessing andacts without any expectations.
(28:59):
When her work is done, shetakes no credit.
That is why it will lastforever.
So you can see, in the Tao TeChing, what they're teaching is
the idea of duality.
You know that when we creategood, we're also creating evil,
and so there might be a way ofunifying and having neither good
(29:19):
nor evil in a unity of justbeing different reflections, and
that's one of the Taoistprinciples.
Another Taoist principle iswu-wei doing, not doing, in
other words, understanding andmastering something to the point
where you can do it as anautomatic response in life.
And also there's thisnon-attachment, this sense of
(29:42):
non-attachment, and there's alsothis sense of not putting the
focus and the importance on thework and not on the person.
Right right.
Lionel (29:53):
Okay, so I have Isaiah.
I had to look this up real fast.
I have Isaiah 45 talking aboutduality.
Isaiah 45 says this that thereis no one beside me.
I'm the Lord.
There is no other.
I'm the one forming light andcreating darkness, casting
(30:22):
well-being and creating calamity.
I am the Lord who does allthese things.
Again, that's Isaiah 45, 7.
When the Lord is speaking tothe prophet and saying I created
there's duality here.
I created light and darkness.
(30:42):
If you want to look forcausality, it's me.
I'm doing, you know I'm so.
So that that's very, veryinteresting, very, very
interesting.
Bob Martin (30:52):
So also there's the idea that rain falls on the good
and evil.
Lionel (30:57):
Right, that's right.
Jesus said that it falls on thejust and the unjust.
Bob Martin (31:02):
Just in the unjust, and so Jesus does not decide on
what his gifts are going to,based on the things that we mere
mortals judge on.
They're all children of God,and so there is the duality.
But then there's also thatthey're all children of God, and
so they're all the same in thatregard.
So this is what I wrote inchapter two If you view some
(31:27):
things as beautiful, you'll viewothers as ugly.
If you judge some people asgood, you'll judge others as bad
.
Opposites create each other.
There's no easy withoutdifficult, no long without short
, no high without low, no beforewithout after.
But Christ transcends oppositeswithout after.
But Christ transcends opposites.
He acts without acting andteaches beyond his words.
(31:50):
He does not resist what is.
Thus his influence becomesirresistible.
He owns nothing, yet has all.
He acts without regard to whatpeople think.
He is Lord, yet sees others asequal.
He fashions miracles and shirkspride.
He places importance only onthe message.
(32:12):
When his work is done, he moveson.
That is why his works areeternal.
So you can see the Tao in that.
But then, as a Christian, youcan easily say that this is a
devotional talking about thecharacter of Jesus.
What kind of a person does he,and what is it about him that we
(32:33):
want to model, so that we canbe more Christ-like in our lives
?
Lionel (32:39):
Yeah, and you know what's powerful about that is it
really gets to the morality ofa thing.
It gets to the morality.
So what I mean by morality, itgets to the morality and ethics
of the principle, right?
So it's not always just aboutthe scripture.
(33:01):
So some people who arelistening to this, they're going
to go man, you're readingsomething from the Dow and
Bailey, now you're reading ascripture and you're you're
making these uh, uh things thatthe scripture would never say.
No, listen, an important piecefor for us to get is that our
Christian faith has principlesand ethics.
(33:24):
That does not exist fromnothing and nowhere, but there
were ancient principles, therewere cultural principles and
moralities that people followed,that were sort of universal,
and this is what the book ofProverbs talks about.
(33:45):
When it talks about in all,you're getting get understanding
.
Knowledge is one thing, butknowing how to apply that and
then knowing what is the ethicmotive and intent behind a thing
is very important, which iswhat Jesus promoted.
Instance you know, in theGospels of Matthew, some of the
(34:14):
religious leaders said to Jesuslook, why are your disciples not
washing their hands before theyeat?
And Jesus says well, you know,it's not so much about, it's not
what goes into the person, thatfiles, it's what comes out of a
person.
That's a principle.
What principle?
He got that from somewhere,more than likely probably from
Egypt, but there was someteaching and training, some
(34:42):
ancient teaching and trainingand wisdom that helped him
understand his Christian faiththat way.
So, okay, bob, we're going tocome back on the other side.
You hold on for a second.
We're going to take a quickbreak for our YouTube fans.
Okay, just a second.
Well, man, we're having awonderful conversation with Bob
Martin.
We're talking about all thedifferences and the similarities
between our faith group.
(35:02):
So here's what I need you to doIf you're listening to this, I
want you to make sure you go toour YouTube page Words for
Change YouTube page where youcan learn more.
If you are watching this, youcan see this pop up on the
screen right now.
There's information there foryou.
Also, I want you to go ahead onand subscribe.
(35:25):
Go ahead on and subscribe toour YouTube page and you can
make sure that you join us hereon Apple's podcast, spotify, and
you can send me a message.
Let me know.
Listen, I want to hear anepisode about this, and this
episode that you're doing withBob was great.
Here's some questions that Ihave for Bob, and we'll do our
(35:49):
best and make sure we answerthose questions.
Okay, so, bob, as we moveforward to the next stage, now
that we've you've transitioned,you, you're in Taoism or you're
practicing as a part of your,your spiritual development, tell
(36:18):
us what work are you doing nowthat?
Bob Martin (36:20):
your Taoist is feeding and how you serve the
world.
Well, so I went, I was baptizedfive years ago, six years ago
now, in the United Church ofChrist, which is a progressive
church, and our particularchurch is broad enough in its
(36:42):
philosophy to be able it's funny, this is a funny story.
So I can say the UCC is apretty progressive church, right
, and I always thought that ayou know, I, always I as the
more that I read and the morethat I learned about Chris, even
early on in my life, when I wasintroduced to Jesus for the
(37:04):
first time, I always loved himas I saw him as a great master,
as a wisdom master.
The question of his divinity,I'll be very honest with you,
even today, is something which Ijust consider to be above my
pay grade and not particularlyimportant, because I honor the
(37:26):
teachings and I honor who he was.
We had a good conversation inmy Sunday school class once and
it was this If a person claimsto be a Christian and believes
in the divinity of Christ butdoesn't follow his ways and is
(37:46):
greedy and is harmful, is he aChristian?
And in the other way, if aperson follows the ways of Jesus
and acts the way that Jesuswould like him to act, but
doesn't believe in the divinityof Jesus.
Is he a Christian?
So those, those are you know,kind of questions that I have.
(38:08):
So now Connie is very happybecause I'm going to be saved.
I'm saved, but you know, toanswer your question, it really
needs going into.
The question of what about?
This exclusivity thing issomething which turns a lot of
(38:30):
people off from the churchbecause it's just hard to
believe that 90% or 70% of theworld is condemned to hell.
It's just hard for people toaccept that whole thing and I
have some thoughts on that andI'm fortunate that I go to a
(38:50):
church where I can express thosethoughts.
But you know, people always areciting John 3.16,.
You know, no one can get to theFather except through me, and I
question whether a spiritualbeing, when they said the word
me, would be referring to thesack of skin that existed on the
planet or was referring totheir spiritual nature.
(39:12):
If me referred to unconditionallove and you substitute that
for me, then it would read noone could get to the father
without engaging inunconditional love.
Now that makes a lot of senseand like.
And the other thing that I kindof believe is that, you know,
(39:37):
people talk about the Trinitythe Father, the Son and the Holy
Spirit, and that they are allone God in three manifestations,
which would mean that Godequals Jesus, equals the Holy
Spirit.
And I don't know anybody thatdoesn't believe that the holy
spirit was, has boundaries andonly exists in certain countries
(39:58):
.
And it seems to me that theholy spirit is, is, is, is a
force for good that inspirespeople all over the world, which
means that jesus inspirespeople all over the world, and
so means that Jesus inspirespeople all over the world.
And so you know, if you, if youhave a broader view of John 3,
16, and you take into thespiritual aspects of it, then
(40:22):
you know we're all, we're allsaved.
Lionel (40:26):
Yeah, I mean that's, that's definitely a universalist
viewpoint of salvation and thereason why, particularly For
even I'm just going to say thisfor evangelicals that those are
some of the people who follow menot all, but some and I and I
appreciate them.
For them it's about doctrine,it's about right, doctrine,
(40:53):
right, and that that is the,that is the maximum, even though
they would probably not wantand phrases which I get it.
I understand all of that Onceyou begin to grow and see
(41:18):
different perspectives.
For instance, not allChristians, I would just say, in
the United States in particular, I mean I can go drill down
deeper than that they don't allbelieve in the Trinitarian
belief, right.
There's a faction in thePentecostal church called
oneness doctrine, where theybelieve that Jesus, that God,
(41:43):
jesus, what they call homoousis,but that Jesus wasn't God.
God is the only God, it canonly be one God, which is why
they call it oneness doctrine,right.
And then, when you get to theCouncil of Nicaea 325, the big
split was over what?
(42:03):
The divinity of Christ?
Was he man and God, or was heman?
Well, guess what?
The Western Church won thatargument, which is why we have
it in our canon in the West, butguess what the Eastern church
don't hold fast to a Trinitariandoctrine to understand that
(42:28):
theology is a working practiceof trying to give voice, word
and explanation to this mysteryand thing we call God.
That's Jesus' representation ofthat.
Bob Martin (42:43):
That's why yeah, that's why one of the symbols of
the UCC church is a comma.
I love that.
God is still speaking.
That's right.
It's not the end.
Lionel (42:58):
You know and you know in the, in the, if you are, if you
grew up in the South and you'rewent Baptist, you believe in
dispensationalism, Every part ofyour, of the Christian faith at
least, as there's many ways,I'm just trying not to be
(43:19):
complicated for everyone.
So dispensationalism basicallysaying that God does certain
things at certain times inhistory.
Well, in some of thePentecostal doctrine, some of
them believe indispensationalism, but with the
caveat.
The caveat is God's stillworking in this day and time, so
God didn't just stop workingwith the Bible, but that that
(43:42):
message is continuing on andthat God is still speaking and
moving today, which is why yousee people in the Pentecostal
church still have the titleWatch this apostle, why you see
people in the Pentecostal churchstill have the title watch this
apostle.
So, whereas in dispossessionismand in some dispossession
teachings, particularly in theSouth, there are no other
apostles, I don't know ifrecently you've heard in the
(44:03):
news, a pastor by the name ofTony Evans, who's a large in the
evangelical world right, Gotcaught up in something that you
know.
No one really knows what it isbecause when they gave the
church gave a statement, he gavea statement.
It was a very, very vague andI'm not using that for clickbait
.
I'm just saying he's one ofthose individuals that believe
(44:25):
that women can be preachers inchurches.
He has a large following.
He's actually a distant mentorof mine, right.
So I don't.
He doesn't believe in the titleof apostle, but there are so
many other things that he's donethat have been very, very
helpful to the African-Americancommunity and just the church
community at large, right?
(44:45):
So I'll say all of that.
So tell us about your book, aswe kind of wrap up here.
Tell us about your book, and asyou're talking about, I want to
make sure that I show peoplewhat you, what you're working on
, at least a book that you havepermission to throw one little
bug in the ointment here.
Bob Martin (45:37):
Bible are also reflected almost verbatim in
Buddhist sutras that werewritten 500 years before Jesus
lived, almost verbatim.
And he was not recorded fromthe time that he was 13 to 32.
So where was he?
And there is a lot of evidencethat he actually did travel in
India and Tibet and taught andlearned and returned and much of
(46:04):
what he preached was verysimilar to Buddhist teachings,
was very similar to Buddhistteachings.
So there may be much more tothe history here than we have
any idea.
And if I could just tell you oneother quick little story, when
I came to North Carolina, I was,I went back, I started my whole
(46:24):
career over, I went back and Ibecame a DA district attorney
and you know you get asked andinvited to go speak at places.
So I got asked to come to aPentecostal church and I went
and I spoke about, you know,search warrants and the drug and
drugs were just cocaine andcrack was just kidding Alamance
County here in North Carolina.
(46:46):
So I talked about all that andthen the preacher took me back
to his office and he had anenvelope for me which is an
honorarium, which I didn'texpect, and he he asked me you
know my religion and you know, Ididn't want to say Buddhist,
but I'd been to a bunch ofUnitarian churches.
(47:06):
So I said Unitarian and his the, the blood just drained out of
his face and he looked at me andhe goes Sir, we here are
Trinitarians.
And without another word he gotup and he walked to the door,
to the outside, and he openedhis door and he didn't even look
(47:28):
me in the eye and I walked outthe door.
He did not give me thatenvelope.
Lionel (47:34):
Wow, Wow.
There's something wrong withthat right.
Bob Martin (47:42):
Yeah, there is something, but just goes to show
that people are loyal to theirbelief systems.
Lionel (47:49):
Very much so, very much so so anyway about my book.
Bob Martin (47:52):
What would you like to know?
Lionel (47:54):
Yeah, so.
So tell everyone where they canfind the book.
Where is it?
You know, I think people wantto know that.
Okay, also your website and soon.
So people on YouTube, they'llsee you put it up for the
audience listening.
They won't be able to, so yeah,Right.
Bob Martin (48:17):
So the book is called I Am the Way Finding the
Truth in the Life Through aBiblical Reimagining of the Tao
is the name of it, and it has acopy on Amazon.
Find it on Amazon or they cango to my website and I've got a
lot of portions from the book onthe website and it's I am the
way bookcom.
Lionel (48:35):
There it is so if you're watching on YouTube, you see it
pop up.
Now I am the way bookcom andhe's got all.
Bob has all this stuff therefor you as well.
So I am the way and I'll makesure.
Look at that, that's pretty.
I am the way and I'll make sure.
Look at that, that's pretty.
I am the way the book.
This book explores theinterfaith spiritual harmony,
(48:56):
creating a bridge betweeneastern and christian wisdom,
expressing the chapters of thetitle ching tile dal te ching,
and biblical language forming adevotional.
Very good, very, very good.
So that's there for you andI'll make sure that, uh, that
(49:16):
information, uh, the link toBob's website, is put in the
show notes as well.
Bob Martin (49:23):
And there's a contact, there are contact
buttons there and, um, ifanybody ever wants to do a
little Bible Bible study or astudy on it, or have me come by
virtually on Zoom to talk to aclass or to do something, I'm
available, no charge.
I'm happy to do it.
Lionel (49:42):
Very good, that sounds like something we should do.
I think people will appreciatethat.
So, bob, what closing wordwould you have for our audience
today, whether something fromyour book or principle that you
live by, something that willhelp them in their life, in
their faith journey?
Bob Martin (50:05):
Whatever you do for the least of these, you do for
the Lord.
Just live your life on thatbasis.
But I wake up in the morningand I take my dogs out to this
elementary school that's nearby.
It has a big playground in itand I can sit there on the bench
as my dogs play around and Iwatch the sunrise.
(50:26):
And what I say to myself in themorning is well, lord, this is
going to be another day and it'sgoing to be a day of my life,
and whenever I leave in it I'mtrading a day of my life.
For that I am trading it.
So it's important.
So by the end of the day, letme please make sure that I leave
(50:51):
something good in it.
Lionel (50:54):
Amen, well said, well said.
And if I reinterpret thatChristian, I'm just kidding.
I always say Lord, give us thisday our daily bread.
You know, don't give us toomuch that we will be unthankful.
You know, don't give us toomuch that we will be unthankful.
Don't give us so much, I meantoo little, that we would be
grunge resentful, but give usjust what we need to get through
(51:20):
the day.
Bob Martin (51:21):
You know Buddhist monks.
They leave their monasteries inthe morning and they have a
small little offering bowl thatthey carry with them in their
hands and it holds just enoughrice for one day, just one day.
And they go out into thecommunity and people take care
(51:42):
of them and they fill their bowland they go back and they have
their food for one day, one day,and they go out next.
Give us this day, well holdtight right there, brother.
Lionel (51:53):
Wow, what a conversation we've had with Bob Martin.
I don't know about you, but mybrain is firing on all cylinders
as I consider what are thecommonalities, how we can take
the wisdom from the other faithtraditions and let that wisdom
(52:14):
speak and encourage our livesand our spiritual growth as well
, and I want to encourage you todo that.
I want to encourage you to prayand ask God for direction.
You don't have to do what I'mdoing, or you don't have to do
it simply because I'm suggesting, but what you have to do that's
critical to your faith is knowthat there are different ways,
(52:37):
that there are different modesof wisdom, there are different
books of teaching, there aredifferent religious experiences
that we can all learn from, andthat's what this is all about.
Well, bob, my friend, thank youso much for joining us here on
the Words for Change podcast.
And again, you guys can checkout all Bob's information.
(52:57):
His book will be down in theshow notes and you can find his
book on Amazon, and wedefinitely appreciate Bob for
coming through and sharing withus today.
All right, so y'all be good.
We'll see you on the other side.
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