July 23, 2024 • 28 mins
What causes trusted pastors to fall into moral failure, and how can we prevent it? In this eye-opening episode of the Words for Change podcas, we scrutinize the immense pressures facing pastors today, particularly those in the evangelical and Southern Baptist traditions, and how these factors contribute to their moral lapses. #robertmorrisscandel
We don't stop at identifying the problems; we offer actionable insights to support pastors in maintaining their moral compass.
Listen in as we also discuss the crucial role of church boards in ensuring ethical behavior and integrity among religious leaders including inspiring message from Bishop TD Jakes #BishopJakes
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As of 2024, as you're listening to this podcast, less
than a third of Americans viewpastors as highly honest and
ethical people, down from 40% to32% over the past four years.
And might I add that, based onrecent information that you and
(00:21):
I have been introduced to whatwe've seen in the media, these
numbers are going to changedrastically.
Well, hello everybody, welcometo the Words for Change podcast.
This is your host, lionel, andI want to say happy Tuesday,
happy podcast Tuesday.
As a matter of fact, thisTuesday I'm actually not
recording this live, I'mrecording this previously.
(00:44):
By the time you listen to thispodcast, I will be in Europe
doing some business as well ashoping to vacation with the
family, and so today we'retalking about and addressing the
critical topic of moral failureamong pastors.
This is something that wecannot deny, nor can we neglect,
(01:16):
because, as you have witnessedall throughout the media, that
this situation is becomingunglued primarily amongst the
evangelical church, I would sayeven within the Southern Baptist
tradition.
You've seen and I've witnessedmany, many pastors who have
(01:37):
great ministries, have had greatimpact on our world and on
Christianity in the UnitedStates, are coming under an
immense amount of scrutiny, andsome of them rightly so Now I
must say that some of thepastors that are mentioned, I
know them personally, haveworked with him.
I'm not for sure equally orintimately excuse me acquainted
(02:01):
with him, but I know a lot ofthem, and so this comes as much
a shock to me as it does for you.
Now I will say that I come tothis topic not in a judgmental
attitude.
My attitude is not judgmentalat all.
My attitude is one of trying tofind understanding.
(02:24):
That's my goal.
My goal is to help all of us tounderstand why moral failures
occur in religious leaders,particularly in pastors, and how
we can prevent them.
As a person who served peoplehave served in the church or in
pastoral ministry this comesclose to my heart and is very,
(02:47):
very important to me.
And my goal is I prayed throughthis and I asked the Lord to
give me wisdom about how I talkabout this, because my goal is
not to be judgmental.
God brought to me Psalms 23,.
The Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not want, and that youand you know, and I know that
(03:07):
Jesus is the perfect shepherd.
But but you and I also knowthat there are many pastors and
leaders who can influence how weunderstand or see or view said
pastors and shepherds.
So we're going to explore thecauses and preventative measures
from a biblical perspective andtouch on the psychological part
(03:31):
somewhat.
But our goal is to gain insightto the basic concepts and delve
at it this way.
Now we in the church need tounderstand what do we mean when
we say moral failures.
You and I have probably, overthe many, many years.
If you've grown up in church,you understand this lingo.
(03:53):
If you have not grown up inchurch or didn't, your family
didn't take you to church on aregular basis.
It was not part of how you wereraised or how you made moral
decisions or how you developyour morality then this is going
to be the concept or phrase ofmoral failure.
May not have much make muchsense to you, but just for a
(04:15):
good, solid definition so thatwe're all on the same page,
moral failure is a significantbreach of ethical and moral
standard.
Significant breach of ethicaland moral standard.
That standard can be held by,that is expected to be held by,
(04:36):
a religious leader.
It is an example of thisindividual who stands and
represents God amid a community,is expected to act and behave
in certain ways to not havecertain sorts of misconduct, and
those misconduct can includeadultery, sexual impropriety,
financial misconduct, abuse ofpower and many other
(04:57):
circumstances or many othertopics, just to name a few.
But from a biblical perspective, just to name a few.
But from a biblical perspective,we've seen moral failure
recorded in the Bible and thebiblical perspective describes
moral failure as a departurefrom the word or the ethical
commandments of God.
(05:17):
In the Hebrew Bible and OldTestament it's really moral
failure, or sin is another waywe classify this in the church
is understood as something thatcauses us to make a direct
disobedience toward biblicalcontext of toward a commandment
(05:38):
given by God.
And in the Hebrew Bible therewas a commandment that violated
the 630, some odd laws thatMoses gave to the children of
Israel upon his descent fromMount Sinai when he received the
law that was summarized intowhat we all know as the Ten
Commandments.
So biblically, moral failure isseen as a disobedience toward a
(06:00):
commandment of God, is seen asa disobedience toward the
commandment of God.
Now, given texture to what thatmeans in the lives of people.
We see more failure in KingDavid and his sin with Bathsheba
in 2 Samuel 11.
You also see Peter's denial ofChrist in Matthew 26.
You see Paul talks about thisas he dealt with the church of
(06:22):
Corinthians at Corinth.
You see, paul talks about thisas he dealt with the church of
Corinthians at Corinth.
Saul and the book of Samuel, whodisobeyed the commandment of
God, the commandment of God thatwas given by the prophet Samuel
to slaughter the Amalekitesright, and we're not going to
get into the ethical issue ofthat right now.
But upon him returning backfrom battle, samuel the prophet
(06:45):
said to him what is thisbleeding of the sheep out here?
Did not God tell you toslaughter everything, to get rid
of everything, to get rid ofeveryone?
And so you have here againdisobeyed a direct commandment
of God.
These are the biblical examples, just a few.
There's many others, I'm sure.
If you read the Bible then youknow of many other stories.
(07:08):
If you haven't, then these twostories I gave you in 2 Samuel,
11 and 1 Samuel, as well as inMatthew 26, verse 69 to 75, you
can go back and look at thosestories and they can give you
more context From a biblicalperspective.
What about moral integrity?
So the Bible sets a highstandard for leaders.
(07:30):
Okay, first, timothy three, onethrough seven talks about what
are some of the qualificationsof a person seeking the office
of a bishop or overseer or elder.
These are particular words thatwas mentioned.
This text, this pericope in 1Timothy 3, is also in Titus 1,
(07:52):
chapter 1, 5 through 9.
It outlines the qualificationsthat emphasizes self-control,
respectability, the ability toteach, and so if you look at
those texts, these textsdescribes what, what is expected
of those who will lead in areligious context, particularly
(08:16):
from a christian, biblicalreligious context.
Okay, so if you are fromanother religious tradition,
we're not referring to thosereligious communities we're
primarily talking about, in aChristian, in a Western
Christian perspective, what isexpected of leaders.
And I'll just go as far as tosay anyone who's standing as a
(08:40):
moral figure of some sort hasqualifications that he or she
are expected to maintain.
I think what we get it wrong,often the church get it wrong is
that we don't account for thehumanity in these people.
When 1 Timothy and Titus talksabout the qualifications of an
elder or overseer or a leader,he's talking about setting a
(09:04):
standard.
That doesn't mean a person isperfect, but it means that they
should strive toward thesestandards.
And that's something criticalfor us to consider as we look at
the public shaming, if you will, of these pastors by the public
(09:24):
media and as if you were aperson in church or a person who
is connected to a church.
Obviously, there are someegregious failures that some of
these leaders have participatedin, and by no means am I
condoning them, but my heart andmy spirit is of that of how.
(09:46):
Why are we having theseproblems?
Why are people, why is itconsistently a problem?
Are we in a position where wecan't see the forest because of
the trees?
In other words, we keep lookingat the byproduct through these
said behaviors versus looking atwhat's actually causing these
(10:06):
behaviors and how can we get atit.
So that's my heart and that'smy motive.
Proverbs 4.23 says guard yourheart, because out of it flows
the issues of life.
So if we look at King Davidagain, right, despite his faith,
he was a man of faith.
Faith, right.
So we're still talking aboutbiblical perspectives, moral
(10:27):
integrity.
He committed adultery and hecommitted murder, and the
consequences were severe familystrife, national turmoil.
David was the king of Israel,so because he had sinned against
God, it caused that his sin hadconsequences that affected his
family and his leadershipposition as well.
(10:48):
Samson is another example of aperson who had allowed his
personal sins to make him unableto make wise decisions.
His personal sins kept him fromhaving the strength of moral
will to resist temptationsleading to an eventual capture
(11:11):
and death.
So these stories remind us thatGod chooses leaders, and this is
an important point here thatwill fail.
As long as you have people in ahuman institution, you're going
to have failures, you're goingto have mistakes, you're going
to have people who do thingsthat they shouldn't do.
Now the question you're askingyourself well, listen, there are
(11:34):
deeper issues here.
It's not just about the factthat you guys remember, years
ago, mark Driscoll out of Ican't remember the name of the
church right now, but he was outof Seattle.
I lived in Seattle for aboutfive years, marcio Church.
His issues first began withplagiarism, and you can go on
(11:59):
and on and look at as of late, Ithink it's Ravi Zacharias.
Sorry, I'm not going to editthis, by the way.
I'm just going to let it gobecause I have to record this
podcast and then prepare tostart packing so I can get ready
to go out of town.
So it's not going to be perfect, but I pray that you forgive me
and charge it to my head, notmy heart, okay.
(12:21):
So Robbie Zacharias, who waswho was caught up in some kind
of uh egregious, uh sextrafficking, uh situation, and
it's something that I broughtthat came to my mind as well
that a lot of these there.
There are two contexts that wehave to think about.
All of this stuff is happening.
All of these stories are comingto the light during a
(12:44):
presidential election year.
That's the first thing that Italked to my friends about.
I said why do you think this?
I said well, I think it hassomething to do with.
It's a political election yearand people are doing a lot of
research on pastors and noticewhere these things are happening
.
They're happening primarily inthe South.
These stories are coming out.
I'm talking about I'm notsaying that they're not pastors.
(13:06):
It's stories that are happeningin different parts of the
United States, like on the EastCoast or up North, but I'm
saying these stories are beinghighlighted in the news, are
coming primarily from churchesin the South, pastors who
typically vote or hold theRepublican evangelical line
(13:27):
right and those who have spokenout publicly about certain kinds
of sins.
You and I must look at whatcontext is happening here as we
think about what's reallyhappening, what's really going
on Now.
None of that excuses theproblem.
I want to make that clear.
None of that excuses theproblem.
I want to make that clear.
(13:47):
None of that excuses theproblem.
Okay, and, by the way, I justwant to say before we go on, if,
if, if you have a question oryou got a concern, if you're
looking at show notes and youwant to send me a question or
you, I would love to hear backfrom you.
I really, really would.
What do you thought about thisepisode and was it helpful to
you at all?
So there's a in the show notes,if you, there should be a link
(14:08):
where you can send me a textmessage.
I'll actually get a message oremail and then, when I come back
on the line, I answer thatemail.
I won't mention names and youcan say if you would like for me
to mention your name or not,and I'll bring that up during
our next episode.
So what about the psychologicalfactors?
And here's something that wereally don't talk about.
We in church leadership I canremember after serving in large
(14:32):
past churches I'm talking about.
I served with Dr Tony Evans andI have a lot of respect for him
.
I don't know exactly what he'sgoing through, but, man, I'm
telling you, always seen as aperson of character, always seen
as a person who, you know, kepthis nose straight, he had
people that kept him accountable, his elder board, so forth and
(14:54):
so on.
So very, very surprised aboutall of it.
But in all of my years of over20 years of being in pastoral
leadership and what I mean bypastoral leadership that means
serving in local congregations,being around pastors, being at
conferences, traveling theUnited States, speaking,
(15:14):
teaching Bible, college teachingthe Bible, doing Wednesday
night prayer services, doingthree or four or five services
on Sunday morning for years at atime, not include everything
that went on during the weekday.
I was really up close andpersonal to all of this and
through all of my experiences Icannot remember one time, except
(15:36):
maybe in seminary, goingthrough my first master's degree
, that we ever talked aboutunderstanding the psychological
behavior behind pastorship,behind leadership.
So the psychologicalconsiderations gives us insight
into why these more affairsoccur.
Some people call, somepsychologists call it cognate
(15:57):
dissonance theory suggests thatwe act against our own beliefs
and the experience causes mentaldiscomfort and which which we
often try to resolve through,often through justification.
So there's a sense of cognitivedissonance, right?
So you may say well, how can aperson who has that much
(16:19):
influence proceed on to act insuch a way?
How can a famous teacher andpreacher and evangelist go on to
be involved with sextrafficking?
Some call it psychology.
Psychologists and psychiatristscall it a mental discomfort.
(16:41):
Right, it is this that leadsthem to justifying their
behavior.
Okay, some other psychologicaltriggers stress and burnout are
significant triggers.
I remember years ago asking oneof my mentors, how do you deal
with stress?
And he said something to methat really stuck with me.
(17:03):
His words to me were sometimespeople deal with stress in
different ways and there aretimes when people allow their
worst demons to rise becausethey haven't figured out other
productive ways to relieve theirstress.
Pastors often face immensepressures to meet spiritual and
emotional needs from congregants.
(17:25):
This is some of the triggers.
That comes from burnout,leading to exhaustion, isolation
and other factors.
The lack of a support network.
Pastors can become vulnerable.
Personality disorder, such asnarcissism, can also come into
(17:46):
this question of moral failure,and this is important because
these psychological triggerswhat we call them, are important
to talk about, because thereare pastors in positions right
now who could possibly have adiagnosable or have never been
diagnosed, with multiplepersonality disorder,
(18:07):
narcissistic tendencies, splitpersonalities, but they've never
been tested because they hid itall under the blood of Jesus.
And this is problematic.
And if what we are experiencingthrough this rise and surge of
the public shaming of pastorsand leaders and then again, I
(18:29):
just want to be clear I'm nottalking about those who are
obviously making egregiousmistakes, I'm not condoning any
of those.
What I'm simply getting at iswhat's the reason?
Why is this happening?
Right, the goal is to figureout why, in order to be a more
healthy pastorate, okay, thereare pastors in positions of
(18:49):
authority that have never beenclinically diagnosed with
actually mental health issuesand mental health concerns, and
it is stress, comes into theirlife, it increases and causes
more problems.
So so, when we talk aboutpsychological triggers right,
these are very clinical termsthat I'm using it's an immense
(19:13):
pressure that comes fromspiritual and emotional needs,
what people need versus whatthey need, what pastors need,
the immense amount of exhaustion.
I remember doing research yearsago while in seminary and we
talked about that pastors, thepastoral industry are some of
(19:33):
the most underpaid and mostexhausted, stressed out leaders
in the American workforce.
And so if you couple thesetriggers with any other factors,
like family problems with anyother factors like family
problems, personal growing upwith childhood abuse or any of
(19:55):
these things.
What happens is when thesetriggers come up and stress
increases them, guess whathappens?
They don't know how to dealwith it and so they begin
dealing with it in very, veryimmoral ways.
Okay, so external factors aswell?
Right.
(20:16):
Some of the other triggers arehigh expectations, being morally
impeccable, feeling a sense ofoverwhelm, being overwhelmed
because of the budget.
If you've ever gone through achurch budget or having to raise
money, it is a stressfulprocess, which is the reason why
you may see this being evidentif you see pastors who are
(20:37):
extremely overweight Because one, they're sitting down most
times because they're studyingthe scriptures.
So they could be sitting downfor 20, 30, 40, 50 hours a week
and not really moving their bodyas much because of the
expectation that they mustdeliver, and some pastors are.
Think about it if you are apastor who has, the average
(20:59):
church attendance is around 60people in America.
So if you look at some of theselarge churches, they have
thousands of congregants andmillions of dollars that are
coming through.
Not just they're not comingthrough their hands personally,
but typically they have a CFO orsomeone else who has a
financial background who handlesthese things.
So they're not.
(21:19):
They're not dealing with themoney personally.
And so if you are a church, asmall church pastor, meaning a
church that's 40 or below, ormaybe a hundred.
When it starts to get aroundover a hundred, most statistics
say this is when one pastor canonly handle about a hundred
(21:39):
people before he has to startgetting other people to help him
out, him or her out.
So if you consider these things, if you consider these
realities, if you add to all ofthat thousands of dollars,
millions of dollars, millions ofprograms, millions of
volunteers, family pressure, youcan only imagine the amount of
(22:02):
tenacity, stick-to-it-ness thatthese preachers need to have.
And so, again, we're talkingabout the triggers and the
social pressures that can impacta pastor's decision-making
process.
So these pressures can make himor her overwhelmed and seek to
(22:22):
escape through inappropriateways.
And this is when scrutinyamplifies.
And many people don't know thatwhen pastors come down from
sermons on Sunday morning, somepastors are only doing one
service a month, sorry, a week.
Some pastors are doing three,four and five services a day, a
(22:46):
day.
The moral impeccability, thepressure is absolutely
overwhelming, and I could notmake emphasize this enough
Serving as a pastor myself of achurch plant, I remember on
several occasions having toworry about the rent for the
facilities where we were havingchurch, then worship practices
(23:10):
that happened during the week,then Bible study, and then
people calling me after hoursbecause they were having family
problems.
People in the hospital.
Having to be, at one point, areal estate broker right, having
to know things about realestate, having to know about the
local laws, working with kidswho were in abused environments
and abused homes, and having toknow about the local laws
(23:31):
working with kids who are werein abused environments and
abused homes and having to kindof know what the laws were to
try to assist families withthese things.
Then being an accountant rightNow, I hired an accountant.
I didn't deal with the money,so I hired somebody to help me
out with that.
I didn't deal with the money,so I hired somebody to help me
out with that.
But these are again right.
(23:52):
I remember from my personalexperience it was just a lot
going on, not to mention I had awife, I have a wife, I have
kids, I have kids.
So it's just absolutelyoverwhelming.
Okay, some church cultures arevery toxic.
That's what I wanted to sayRight Based on the wanted to say
Right Based on the people.
You have Right.
(24:14):
Some people come to churchesbecause they're out to shame
pastors.
I remember doing making areally bad decision as a pastor.
I remember having a sermonseries called God Question and I
put word out in the communityand I told everybody you bring
anyone you want to bring onSunday morning and we're going
(24:36):
to answer all their questionsabout faith.
Now, number one that was anarrogant thing for me to do, but
you know, when you're young youmake silly decisions like that.
But then, two, I had no way ofcontrolling what people were
saying.
So people came up and lying.
I mean, we had a microphone inthe middle of the sanctuary, on
(24:58):
the floors, chairs on both sides.
I'm standing up front like thearrogant know-it-all and people
came down to the microphone andask questions and I answer
questions and some people theyhad every intent to prove why my
religious perspective was wrongor why church was wrong or why
(25:19):
Jesus was not the way.
Okay, I obviously put myself ina situation, but there are many
times when pastors who maybehave a after preaching a sermon,
step down to greet people andthank them for coming, people
begin critiquing them, I mean,right after the service and most
pastors.
If you're a good pastor as faras in teaching the scripture the
(25:42):
way you're supposed to, youspend somewhere between 20 to 30
hours a week preparing thosemessages Okay, and so to have
somebody rip them apart althoughit's it's, you know, there's
nothing morally wrong with thatquestioning a religious leader.
But what I'm getting at is thatthere are a lot of different
(26:04):
strains and struggles that leadto or contribute to moral
failure.
Lead to or contribute to moralfailure.
And when pastors don't have asafe place to express their
struggles or their sins, ortheir mistakes, or their
frustrations and or fears, theywhat lead to destructive
behavior?
Okay.
In 2021, a survey by theEvangelical Council for
(26:27):
Financial Accountability foundthat 94% of ministry leaders and
board chairs believe thatleadership failures are
negatively impacting donor trust, according to Gallup poll.
Here's another one about publictrust toward clergy in 2024,
less than a third of Americansview pastors as highly honest
(26:50):
and ethical.
Okay, so, and I think a lot ofthis has to do with the
frequencies of failure.
While exact statistics are,some of these statistics are
questionable in my opinion, butsome of them have some merit.
They may be a little off, butthey are addressing some
critical issues and asking greatquestions.
(27:10):
One source claims that 40% ofpastors polled admitted to
having extramarital affairssince beginning their ministry.
The same source reports that70% of pastors consistently
fight depression.
50% feel so discouraged thatthey would leave the ministry.
If they could that they wouldleave the ministry as they could
.
I'm a country boy.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I'm from West Virginia.
I don't know nothing about thisbig time stuff.
I never even asked to be big.
I wanted to be effective, notfamous.
Famous is the consequences ofbeing effective.
I didn't know nothing aboutbeing famous and I didn't like
it.
And the first time I was in theWashington Post the article was
(27:59):
so vicious it made me nauseous.
I was so shocked that you couldsay that stuff about somebody
you didn't even know.
Based on assumptions and alittle bit of this and a little
bit of that, they piece it alltogether and you don't get the
same thing back.
So I decided I don't want this.
I was preaching for PastorBishop Donnie Mears, and nobody
knew it, because preachers canoverride their feelings and
(28:19):
function.
I preached the places on fire,but inside I want to quit.
I told God I'm through withthis.
I'm not going through this.
I don't need this.
I don't see, I don't need that.
I'm not going through this.
I don't need this.
I don't see, I don't need that.
I'm a guy who likes to go gethis own chicken wings.
I don't have to have all ofthat stuff to be happy.
So I said I'm not doing this,no more, I'm not doing it.
(28:40):
I'm not doing this.
I'm not doing this because Idon't need this and I didn't ask
for this.
I'm only doing this because ofwhat happened in my life, of the
circumstances that happened inmy life.
He put me on stage.
I didn't ask for it and when Isaw how much it costs I thought
you can have that right backhere.
You can have that right back upin here.
I don't need it.
So I was mad inside and I washurt and I stayed up in the
(29:03):
fellowship with the pastorsbecause I didn't want to go back
to my room and sulk in my ownsorrows.
And they said there's a ladydown in the chair waiting to see
you.
The service was over and thefellowship was over.
The pastor was starting toleave.
I was trying to outwait her.
I thought she'd give up andleave and when I finally came
down the steps, she was thereand she was just a willowy bit
(29:25):
of a woman and she said BishopJakes.
She said I've been in thehospital.
She said I was pregnant in myfallopian tubes and the baby
died in my tubes and I wascarrying around a dead baby and
(29:49):
the toxicity from the babyalmost killed me.
And she said the only thingthat kept me alive was hearing
you preach.
She said if you hadn't havebeen preaching to me every day,
(30:09):
I swear I would have died.
And then she looked at me andshe said it's for us.
It's not for them, it's for us.
It hit me so hard I didn't evenget her name.
(30:29):
I got in the car and cried allthe way back to my room.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
But I just want to say this as we kind of push
toward so what do we do with allof this?
Well, you know how do we handlethis.
What are some of theprecautionary measures that we
should take?
Well, in response to theseissues, I would say that there
are standards that need to beput in place to combat this.
(30:57):
And, although that statement Imade is a clear statement, I'm
not sure how we do that.
I'm not 100% sure if thereshould be a general standard we
put in place in order tocounteract that.
And there are some organizationsthat have proposed emphasizing
proactive care and support tohelp leaders maintain their
(31:21):
integrity.
It's really easy for me to saythis is a complex issue, right,
and if we were to be 100% fair,give pastors a fair shake and
ministry leaders and again, I'mnot talking about people who,
well, let's say, I'm talkingabout all of them priests,
clergymen, pastors right, someof them know some of the
(31:45):
organizations they are part of,are aware of the issues, but
they don't address it because itreflects negatively upon the
organization and that's aproblematic because the pastor
gets caught up in that,particularly if you have people
who, in higher echelons, who putpastors in places of of local
ministry, control their livesand thus their livelihood Right?
(32:09):
So, um, I think, what?
What lives and thus theirlivelihood Right?
So I think what most of thisresearch shows us is that
different generations vary intheir perspective.
The more modern generations ofclergy believe that they're a
(32:29):
little bit more cynical aboutchurch.
You think about kids who leavechurch after high school or
don't want to associate withchurch anymore at all.
Okay, so if we talk aboutpreventative measures, right, I
can be tongue-in-cheek, but I'mgoing to say this here are some
quick solutions that I'm goingto share, and when I say
(32:51):
solutions I don't meancomprehensive.
I mean perhaps you, if you havea pastor friend, maybe you can
encourage them and ask themtough questions when they step
down from that sermon on Sundaymorning, instead of you telling
them how good their sermon is.
Ask them questions like how isyour regular prayer life?
Are you reading the Bible?
Are you participating inpersonal devotion?
(33:14):
Is that essential to you?
Are you developing strongrelationships with God and with
people?
Do you have a therapist to helpyou to resist temptation?
Right, ask these importantquestions.
Psalms 119.11 says you know,hiding God's word in your heart
keeps you or helps you.
It doesn't always solve theproblem, but it does help point
(33:36):
you in the right direction.
Two the accountabilitystructures right.
Most churches have elder boards, but your church pastor doesn't
need to have an elder boardthat are full of yes, people,
but it needs to be people whowill ask hard questions.
Iron sharpens iron Psalms 27,17 says so.
(33:56):
One person sharpens another.
The church board is there foroversight, and oversight means
if a pastor or leader doesn'tmaintain a particular standard
that this congregation has set,it doesn't mean that he or she
is perfect.
It just means we want you tolive up to this standard.
(34:17):
Pastors have to be clear.
Board and church elders have toinsist that they be clear and
honest.
I would also recommend self-care, like mental health.
Get a therapist, taking breaksand vacations and seeking
professional counseling.
Some pastors may have mentalhealth issues and the worst
(34:38):
thing we can do if we'reseriously about solving the root
of the problem, right, if apastor has a mental health issue
, do you kick him out, her out,or do you help them work through
that to manage stress andbalance their lives and family
lives.
Okay, so, so these are some,some important things.
So once again, I'm going to saysome preventative measures
(35:00):
would be accountability,accountability, understanding,
spiritual disciplines, self-care, mental health.
These are three things that arevitally important Spiritual
disciplines, accountability,structure and self-care.
If you care about your pastorand you care about their family,
then I highly encourage you toencourage your pastor to seek
(35:20):
out these three things.
Okay, some of the otherimportant topics are some
pastors may have psychologicalsplit, personalities, right I?
There's a psychological theorythat says that personality
understanding a person'spersonality trait as more
conscientious can predict morefailure.
What do I mean by that?
(35:41):
If you know you are strugglingwith man, this is tough, know
you are struggling with man,this is tough.
But if you are a pastor and youhave these different kinds of
struggles like lust or takingmoney or being unethical or
untruthful about things, knowingthat and then addressing that,
(36:03):
hey, to the board, I strugglewith these things before you get
hired, I think, although thisis a far stretch and I just I
know they're not, I mean pastorslistening to this.
You're going to go, you're outof your mind.
I'd never get a church if Isaid something like this.
I'd never if my elder boardknew they'd sit me down
(36:24):
immediately.
Well fine.
I'd never if my elder boardknew they'd sit me down
immediately.
Well, fine, because at the endof the day, my goal here is to
number one help us to refinepastoral ministry, right?
The purpose of our podcast iscalled Words for Change Podcast,
and what I mean by words forchange is something that will
say, either by me, a guest thatI bring on, or something that is
(36:47):
a read or information that webring to you.
It's going to help you be amore authentic person.
One of the reasons why I am notcurrently serving in a pastoral
leadership was because I wantedto see more diversity in
(37:08):
churches, and I felt that whatwas happening in church was just
people speaking in an echochamber, right, people speaking
in an echo chamber instead ofgetting out into the world.
Then that's a conversation foranother day.
But what I'm saying is that Iwasn't living authentically to
(37:30):
myself, so I wanted to changethat, and if that meant that I
needed to leave church to dothat, then so be it.
I want you guys to look upCarton Pearson.
Carton Pearson Lord rest hissoul died recently.
He was the guy who started theAzusa Street Revivals
Pentecostal preacher Church ofGod in Christ.
I think the largest Church ofGod in Christ is the largest
(37:53):
black Pentecostal denominationin the world, I think.
But Carlton Pearson wasresponsible for the introduction
of Bishop TD Jakes and someother Gary Oliver, some of the
famous Pentecostal preachers,speakers, pastors and worship
leaders that we are familiarwith today.
In fact, I have a cousin who'sa singer right now and I
(38:15):
remember him singing years agoat Azusa Street and Lord bless
him as he's out doing God's workright now.
But Carlton Pearson had achurch in Oklahoma I think it
was in Tulsa, oklahoma, and Godspoke to him about that.
There is no hell.
Now I'm not saying that.
I believe that.
I'm just saying this is.
(38:35):
I'm telling you his story.
But he believed that the Lordhad showed him that there was no
such thing as hell and what hewent to his church against some
of his friends in the ministrywho told him don't do it Some of
his Bishop friends.
He went before his church andsaid I don't believe in that,
that doctrine anymore.
(38:56):
And he lost his church, he losthis Sousa street, he lost and
eventually ended up losing hisfamily and eventually lost his
life.
He died because of I think hehad prostate cancer, had come
back.
But when you talk with him he'sgot a book that's called the
Gospel of Inclusion.
His name is Carlton Pearson,p-e-a-r-s-o-n.
(39:17):
Go.
Look him up, bishop CarltonPearson.
He wrote a book called theGospel of Inclusion.
As a matter of fact, some of youwho listened to this episode
you may be familiar with Carlton.
But he said that he just didn'tbelieve those things anymore
and at heart of heart, he tried.
(39:38):
He had grown up a third orfourth generation of Pentecostal
.
Nobody knew church like CarltonPeterson knew church.
He deviated so far away fromwhat his background and
religious spirit, tradition anddoctrine taught him, but he
believed that it was God leadinghim and he went that way.
(39:59):
Now I'm not encouraging that forthe listeners.
What I'm saying is that hewanted to be authentically
himself listeners.
What I'm saying is that hewanted to be authentically
himself.
If that means that you can'tserve a church, doesn't mean
that you can't serve God outsideof a church, all right.
So listen, I have talked a lotand I just want to encourage you
that being a conscientiouspastor, knowing your failures,
(40:25):
knowing your shortcomings andputting them forefront, can
maybe help chisel out a morehealthy leadership posture.
Right Ongoing education isessential.
There's, you know, the days arelong gone to you know, calling
the seminary the cemetery.
Right People.
Young people today wantsensible religion, they want
(40:47):
sensible Christianity, they wantsensible spirituality,
something that they can liveauthentically into for
themselves, but it still allowsthem to be an effective citizen
and to maintain their personalintegrity right and then foster
an environment of transparency Ijust shared that a moment ago
and then foster an environmentof transparency.
I just shared that a moment ago.
So today we've explored thecauses of you know, we talked
(41:10):
about more failure pastors froma biblical perspective and I've
talked about it from apsychological perspective, and
we discussed the importance ofspiritual disciplines,
accountability and self-care,and I want to encourage you to
implement these.
If you're a pastor listening tome, please reach out to me.
I would love to have aconversation.
If you need a friend, or if youknow you have a pastor who
needs a friend, please reach outto me.
(41:32):
I would love to help, to assist, if not anything else, just to
be a listening ear and achaplain core.
It's one of the things that wedo all the time.
We talk about the importance ofself-care and being able to
tell each other really what'sgoing on in our lives and our
family lives, and that's a veryhealthy culture, because no
one's expected to be perfect.
We're expected to be authentic.
(41:54):
Okay, so I want to encourage youto implement these strategies
and let us work together tosupport leaders and hold them up
to integrity, but not just forthe sake of criticism, but to
provide opportunities tostrengthen their character.
Just as pastors and leaders whostood in the gap for you,
(42:15):
prayed for you, who helped yourfamily get through financial
difficulty, who sat at yourbedside and prayed for your
husband while he was sick withcancer, or who came to visit you
late at night when you were injail and nobody else was there
to help you.
Well, that one pastor, that oneleader who went into his or her
(42:39):
own pocket to help bring youout of the miry clay, to bring
you out of a place where you hadno answers and nobody was there
listening to you, these are thepeople that I'm talking about.
There's a lot of good, just asthough there are preachers out
there who do horrible things,there's a lot of good ones out
(43:01):
there too.
So let's close in prayer.
Father, I thank you forlistening.
I thank you, god, that you'vegiven me the insight to at least
have this conversation.
It's a tough one.
I pray in your name that youhelp those who are struggling,
not only their pastors, but thevictims who've been abused or
(43:25):
taken advantage of.
But my efforts here here maynot be in vain, because, at the
end of the day, what we'resimply doing or trying to do in
your name is to help make us allbetter, so that your church can
be more healthy, so that, inturn, communities, states and
(43:47):
our nation and our world can bea better place.
I thank you for everyone who'slistened to this.
I pray your blessings over them, that you would speak to them,
give them wisdom, insight andcourage to not just criticize
but to speak truth with thespirit of love In Jesus' name,
(44:11):
amen.
Well, thank you, guys, forlistening.
Remember, let's strengthen eachother, strengthen our resolve
and support each other, and Isalute you.
Until next time I'll see youback on the other side.
I wish you all the best.
As of 2024, as you're listening to this podcast, less
than a third of Americans viewpastors as highly honest and
ethical people, down from 40% to32% over the past four years.
And might I add that, based onrecent information that you and
(00:21):
I have been introduced to whatwe've seen in the media, these
numbers are going to changedrastically.
Well, hello everybody, welcometo the Words for Change podcast.
This is your host, lionel, andI want to say happy Tuesday,
happy podcast Tuesday.
As a matter of fact, thisTuesday I'm actually not
recording this live, I'mrecording this previously.
(00:44):
By the time you listen to thispodcast, I will be in Europe
doing some business as well ashoping to vacation with the
family, and so today we'retalking about and addressing the
critical topic of moral failureamong pastors.
This is something that wecannot deny, nor can we neglect,
(01:16):
because, as you have witnessedall throughout the media, that
this situation is becomingunglued primarily amongst the
evangelical church, I would sayeven within the Southern Baptist
tradition.
You've seen and I've witnessedmany, many pastors who have
(01:37):
great ministries, have had greatimpact on our world and on
Christianity in the UnitedStates, are coming under an
immense amount of scrutiny, andsome of them rightly so Now I
must say that some of thepastors that are mentioned, I
know them personally, haveworked with him.
I'm not for sure equally orintimately excuse me acquainted
(02:01):
with him, but I know a lot ofthem, and so this comes as much
a shock to me as it does for you.
Now I will say that I come tothis topic not in a judgmental
attitude.
My attitude is not judgmentalat all.
My attitude is one of trying tofind understanding.
(02:24):
That's my goal.
My goal is to help all of us tounderstand why moral failures
occur in religious leaders,particularly in pastors, and how
we can prevent them.
As a person who served peoplehave served in the church or in
pastoral ministry this comesclose to my heart and is very,
(02:47):
very important to me.
And my goal is I prayed throughthis and I asked the Lord to
give me wisdom about how I talkabout this, because my goal is
not to be judgmental.
God brought to me Psalms 23,.
The Lord is my shepherd.
I shall not want, and that youand you know, and I know that
(03:07):
Jesus is the perfect shepherd.
But but you and I also knowthat there are many pastors and
leaders who can influence how weunderstand or see or view said
pastors and shepherds.
So we're going to explore thecauses and preventative measures
from a biblical perspective andtouch on the psychological part
(03:31):
somewhat.
But our goal is to gain insightto the basic concepts and delve
at it this way.
Now we in the church need tounderstand what do we mean when
we say moral failures.
You and I have probably, overthe many, many years.
If you've grown up in church,you understand this lingo.
(03:53):
If you have not grown up inchurch or didn't, your family
didn't take you to church on aregular basis.
It was not part of how you wereraised or how you made moral
decisions or how you developyour morality then this is going
to be the concept or phrase ofmoral failure.
May not have much make muchsense to you, but just for a
(04:15):
good, solid definition so thatwe're all on the same page,
moral failure is a significantbreach of ethical and moral
standard.
Significant breach of ethicaland moral standard.
That standard can be held by,that is expected to be held by,
(04:36):
a religious leader.
It is an example of thisindividual who stands and
represents God amid a community,is expected to act and behave
in certain ways to not havecertain sorts of misconduct, and
those misconduct can includeadultery, sexual impropriety,
financial misconduct, abuse ofpower and many other
(04:57):
circumstances or many othertopics, just to name a few.
But from a biblical perspective, just to name a few.
But from a biblical perspective,we've seen moral failure
recorded in the Bible and thebiblical perspective describes
moral failure as a departurefrom the word or the ethical
commandments of God.
(05:17):
In the Hebrew Bible and OldTestament it's really moral
failure, or sin is another waywe classify this in the church
is understood as something thatcauses us to make a direct
disobedience toward biblicalcontext of toward a commandment
(05:38):
given by God.
And in the Hebrew Bible therewas a commandment that violated
the 630, some odd laws thatMoses gave to the children of
Israel upon his descent fromMount Sinai when he received the
law that was summarized intowhat we all know as the Ten
Commandments.
So biblically, moral failure isseen as a disobedience toward a
(06:00):
commandment of God, is seen asa disobedience toward the
commandment of God.
Now, given texture to what thatmeans in the lives of people.
We see more failure in KingDavid and his sin with Bathsheba
in 2 Samuel 11.
You also see Peter's denial ofChrist in Matthew 26.
You see Paul talks about thisas he dealt with the church of
(06:22):
Corinthians at Corinth.
You see, paul talks about thisas he dealt with the church of
Corinthians at Corinth.
Saul and the book of Samuel, whodisobeyed the commandment of
God, the commandment of God thatwas given by the prophet Samuel
to slaughter the Amalekitesright, and we're not going to
get into the ethical issue ofthat right now.
But upon him returning backfrom battle, samuel the prophet
(06:45):
said to him what is thisbleeding of the sheep out here?
Did not God tell you toslaughter everything, to get rid
of everything, to get rid ofeveryone?
And so you have here againdisobeyed a direct commandment
of God.
These are the biblical examples, just a few.
There's many others, I'm sure.
If you read the Bible then youknow of many other stories.
(07:08):
If you haven't, then these twostories I gave you in 2 Samuel,
11 and 1 Samuel, as well as inMatthew 26, verse 69 to 75, you
can go back and look at thosestories and they can give you
more context From a biblicalperspective.
What about moral integrity?
So the Bible sets a highstandard for leaders.
(07:30):
Okay, first, timothy three, onethrough seven talks about what
are some of the qualificationsof a person seeking the office
of a bishop or overseer or elder.
These are particular words thatwas mentioned.
This text, this pericope in 1Timothy 3, is also in Titus 1,
(07:52):
chapter 1, 5 through 9.
It outlines the qualificationsthat emphasizes self-control,
respectability, the ability toteach, and so if you look at
those texts, these textsdescribes what, what is expected
of those who will lead in areligious context, particularly
(08:16):
from a christian, biblicalreligious context.
Okay, so if you are fromanother religious tradition,
we're not referring to thosereligious communities we're
primarily talking about, in aChristian, in a Western
Christian perspective, what isexpected of leaders.
And I'll just go as far as tosay anyone who's standing as a
(08:40):
moral figure of some sort hasqualifications that he or she
are expected to maintain.
I think what we get it wrong,often the church get it wrong is
that we don't account for thehumanity in these people.
When 1 Timothy and Titus talksabout the qualifications of an
elder or overseer or a leader,he's talking about setting a
(09:04):
standard.
That doesn't mean a person isperfect, but it means that they
should strive toward thesestandards.
And that's something criticalfor us to consider as we look at
the public shaming, if you will, of these pastors by the public
(09:24):
media and as if you were aperson in church or a person who
is connected to a church.
Obviously, there are someegregious failures that some of
these leaders have participatedin, and by no means am I
condoning them, but my heart andmy spirit is of that of how.
(09:46):
Why are we having theseproblems?
Why are people, why is itconsistently a problem?
Are we in a position where wecan't see the forest because of
the trees?
In other words, we keep lookingat the byproduct through these
said behaviors versus looking atwhat's actually causing these
(10:06):
behaviors and how can we get atit.
So that's my heart and that'smy motive.
Proverbs 4.23 says guard yourheart, because out of it flows
the issues of life.
So if we look at King Davidagain, right, despite his faith,
he was a man of faith.
Faith, right.
So we're still talking aboutbiblical perspectives, moral
(10:27):
integrity.
He committed adultery and hecommitted murder, and the
consequences were severe familystrife, national turmoil.
David was the king of Israel,so because he had sinned against
God, it caused that his sin hadconsequences that affected his
family and his leadershipposition as well.
(10:48):
Samson is another example of aperson who had allowed his
personal sins to make him unableto make wise decisions.
His personal sins kept him fromhaving the strength of moral
will to resist temptationsleading to an eventual capture
(11:11):
and death.
So these stories remind us thatGod chooses leaders, and this is
an important point here thatwill fail.
As long as you have people in ahuman institution, you're going
to have failures, you're goingto have mistakes, you're going
to have people who do thingsthat they shouldn't do.
Now the question you're askingyourself well, listen, there are
(11:34):
deeper issues here.
It's not just about the factthat you guys remember, years
ago, mark Driscoll out of Ican't remember the name of the
church right now, but he was outof Seattle.
I lived in Seattle for aboutfive years, marcio Church.
His issues first began withplagiarism, and you can go on
(11:59):
and on and look at as of late, Ithink it's Ravi Zacharias.
Sorry, I'm not going to editthis, by the way.
I'm just going to let it gobecause I have to record this
podcast and then prepare tostart packing so I can get ready
to go out of town.
So it's not going to be perfect, but I pray that you forgive me
and charge it to my head, notmy heart, okay.
(12:21):
So Robbie Zacharias, who waswho was caught up in some kind
of uh egregious, uh sextrafficking, uh situation, and
it's something that I broughtthat came to my mind as well
that a lot of these there.
There are two contexts that wehave to think about.
All of this stuff is happening.
All of these stories are comingto the light during a
(12:44):
presidential election year.
That's the first thing that Italked to my friends about.
I said why do you think this?
I said well, I think it hassomething to do with.
It's a political election yearand people are doing a lot of
research on pastors and noticewhere these things are happening
.
They're happening primarily inthe South.
These stories are coming out.
I'm talking about I'm notsaying that they're not pastors.
(13:06):
It's stories that are happeningin different parts of the
United States, like on the EastCoast or up North, but I'm
saying these stories are beinghighlighted in the news, are
coming primarily from churchesin the South, pastors who
typically vote or hold theRepublican evangelical line
(13:27):
right and those who have spokenout publicly about certain kinds
of sins.
You and I must look at whatcontext is happening here as we
think about what's reallyhappening, what's really going
on Now.
None of that excuses theproblem.
I want to make that clear.
None of that excuses theproblem.
I want to make that clear.
(13:47):
None of that excuses theproblem.
Okay, and, by the way, I justwant to say before we go on, if,
if, if you have a question oryou got a concern, if you're
looking at show notes and youwant to send me a question or
you, I would love to hear backfrom you.
I really, really would.
What do you thought about thisepisode and was it helpful to
you at all?
So there's a in the show notes,if you, there should be a link
(14:08):
where you can send me a textmessage.
I'll actually get a message oremail and then, when I come back
on the line, I answer thatemail.
I won't mention names and youcan say if you would like for me
to mention your name or not,and I'll bring that up during
our next episode.
So what about the psychologicalfactors?
And here's something that wereally don't talk about.
We in church leadership I canremember after serving in large
(14:32):
past churches I'm talking about.
I served with Dr Tony Evans andI have a lot of respect for him
.
I don't know exactly what he'sgoing through, but, man, I'm
telling you, always seen as aperson of character, always seen
as a person who, you know, kepthis nose straight, he had
people that kept him accountable, his elder board, so forth and
(14:54):
so on.
So very, very surprised aboutall of it.
But in all of my years of over20 years of being in pastoral
leadership and what I mean bypastoral leadership that means
serving in local congregations,being around pastors, being at
conferences, traveling theUnited States, speaking,
(15:14):
teaching Bible, college teachingthe Bible, doing Wednesday
night prayer services, doingthree or four or five services
on Sunday morning for years at atime, not include everything
that went on during the weekday.
I was really up close andpersonal to all of this and
through all of my experiences Icannot remember one time, except
(15:36):
maybe in seminary, goingthrough my first master's degree
, that we ever talked aboutunderstanding the psychological
behavior behind pastorship,behind leadership.
So the psychologicalconsiderations gives us insight
into why these more affairsoccur.
Some people call, somepsychologists call it cognate
(15:57):
dissonance theory suggests thatwe act against our own beliefs
and the experience causes mentaldiscomfort and which which we
often try to resolve through,often through justification.
So there's a sense of cognitivedissonance, right?
So you may say well, how can aperson who has that much
(16:19):
influence proceed on to act insuch a way?
How can a famous teacher andpreacher and evangelist go on to
be involved with sextrafficking?
Some call it psychology.
Psychologists and psychiatristscall it a mental discomfort.
(16:41):
Right, it is this that leadsthem to justifying their
behavior.
Okay, some other psychologicaltriggers stress and burnout are
significant triggers.
I remember years ago asking oneof my mentors, how do you deal
with stress?
And he said something to methat really stuck with me.
(17:03):
His words to me were sometimespeople deal with stress in
different ways and there aretimes when people allow their
worst demons to rise becausethey haven't figured out other
productive ways to relieve theirstress.
Pastors often face immensepressures to meet spiritual and
emotional needs from congregants.
(17:25):
This is some of the triggers.
That comes from burnout,leading to exhaustion, isolation
and other factors.
The lack of a support network.
Pastors can become vulnerable.
Personality disorder, such asnarcissism, can also come into
(17:46):
this question of moral failure,and this is important because
these psychological triggerswhat we call them, are important
to talk about, because thereare pastors in positions right
now who could possibly have adiagnosable or have never been
diagnosed, with multiplepersonality disorder,
(18:07):
narcissistic tendencies, splitpersonalities, but they've never
been tested because they hid itall under the blood of Jesus.
And this is problematic.
And if what we are experiencingthrough this rise and surge of
the public shaming of pastorsand leaders and then again, I
(18:29):
just want to be clear I'm nottalking about those who are
obviously making egregiousmistakes, I'm not condoning any
of those.
What I'm simply getting at iswhat's the reason?
Why is this happening?
Right, the goal is to figureout why, in order to be a more
healthy pastorate, okay, thereare pastors in positions of
(18:49):
authority that have never beenclinically diagnosed with
actually mental health issuesand mental health concerns, and
it is stress, comes into theirlife, it increases and causes
more problems.
So so, when we talk aboutpsychological triggers right,
these are very clinical termsthat I'm using it's an immense
(19:13):
pressure that comes fromspiritual and emotional needs,
what people need versus whatthey need, what pastors need,
the immense amount of exhaustion.
I remember doing research yearsago while in seminary and we
talked about that pastors, thepastoral industry are some of
(19:33):
the most underpaid and mostexhausted, stressed out leaders
in the American workforce.
And so if you couple thesetriggers with any other factors,
like family problems with anyother factors like family
problems, personal growing upwith childhood abuse or any of
(19:55):
these things.
What happens is when thesetriggers come up and stress
increases them, guess whathappens?
They don't know how to dealwith it and so they begin
dealing with it in very, veryimmoral ways.
Okay, so external factors aswell?
Right.
(20:16):
Some of the other triggers arehigh expectations, being morally
impeccable, feeling a sense ofoverwhelm, being overwhelmed
because of the budget.
If you've ever gone through achurch budget or having to raise
money, it is a stressfulprocess, which is the reason why
you may see this being evidentif you see pastors who are
(20:37):
extremely overweight Because one, they're sitting down most
times because they're studyingthe scriptures.
So they could be sitting downfor 20, 30, 40, 50 hours a week
and not really moving their bodyas much because of the
expectation that they mustdeliver, and some pastors are.
Think about it if you are apastor who has, the average
(20:59):
church attendance is around 60people in America.
So if you look at some of theselarge churches, they have
thousands of congregants andmillions of dollars that are
coming through.
Not just they're not comingthrough their hands personally,
but typically they have a CFO orsomeone else who has a
financial background who handlesthese things.
So they're not.
(21:19):
They're not dealing with themoney personally.
And so if you are a church, asmall church pastor, meaning a
church that's 40 or below, ormaybe a hundred.
When it starts to get aroundover a hundred, most statistics
say this is when one pastor canonly handle about a hundred
(21:39):
people before he has to startgetting other people to help him
out, him or her out.
So if you consider these things, if you consider these
realities, if you add to all ofthat thousands of dollars,
millions of dollars, millions ofprograms, millions of
volunteers, family pressure, youcan only imagine the amount of
(22:02):
tenacity, stick-to-it-ness thatthese preachers need to have.
And so, again, we're talkingabout the triggers and the
social pressures that can impacta pastor's decision-making
process.
So these pressures can make himor her overwhelmed and seek to
(22:22):
escape through inappropriateways.
And this is when scrutinyamplifies.
And many people don't know thatwhen pastors come down from
sermons on Sunday morning, somepastors are only doing one
service a month, sorry, a week.
Some pastors are doing three,four and five services a day, a
(22:46):
day.
The moral impeccability, thepressure is absolutely
overwhelming, and I could notmake emphasize this enough
Serving as a pastor myself of achurch plant, I remember on
several occasions having toworry about the rent for the
facilities where we were havingchurch, then worship practices
(23:10):
that happened during the week,then Bible study, and then
people calling me after hoursbecause they were having family
problems.
People in the hospital.
Having to be, at one point, areal estate broker right, having
to know things about realestate, having to know about the
local laws, working with kidswho were in abused environments
and abused homes, and having toknow about the local laws
(23:31):
working with kids who are werein abused environments and
abused homes and having to kindof know what the laws were to
try to assist families withthese things.
Then being an accountant rightNow, I hired an accountant.
I didn't deal with the money,so I hired somebody to help me
out with that.
I didn't deal with the money,so I hired somebody to help me
out with that.
But these are again right.
(23:52):
I remember from my personalexperience it was just a lot
going on, not to mention I had awife, I have a wife, I have
kids, I have kids.
So it's just absolutelyoverwhelming.
Okay, some church cultures arevery toxic.
That's what I wanted to sayRight Based on the wanted to say
Right Based on the people.
You have Right.
(24:14):
Some people come to churchesbecause they're out to shame
pastors.
I remember doing making areally bad decision as a pastor.
I remember having a sermonseries called God Question and I
put word out in the communityand I told everybody you bring
anyone you want to bring onSunday morning and we're going
(24:36):
to answer all their questionsabout faith.
Now, number one that was anarrogant thing for me to do, but
you know, when you're young youmake silly decisions like that.
But then, two, I had no way ofcontrolling what people were
saying.
So people came up and lying.
I mean, we had a microphone inthe middle of the sanctuary, on
(24:58):
the floors, chairs on both sides.
I'm standing up front like thearrogant know-it-all and people
came down to the microphone andask questions and I answer
questions and some people theyhad every intent to prove why my
religious perspective was wrongor why church was wrong or why
(25:19):
Jesus was not the way.
Okay, I obviously put myself ina situation, but there are many
times when pastors who maybehave a after preaching a sermon,
step down to greet people andthank them for coming, people
begin critiquing them, I mean,right after the service and most
pastors.
If you're a good pastor as faras in teaching the scripture the
(25:42):
way you're supposed to, youspend somewhere between 20 to 30
hours a week preparing thosemessages Okay, and so to have
somebody rip them apart althoughit's it's, you know, there's
nothing morally wrong with thatquestioning a religious leader.
But what I'm getting at is thatthere are a lot of different
(26:04):
strains and struggles that leadto or contribute to moral
failure.
Lead to or contribute to moralfailure.
And when pastors don't have asafe place to express their
struggles or their sins, ortheir mistakes, or their
frustrations and or fears, theywhat lead to destructive
behavior?
Okay.
In 2021, a survey by theEvangelical Council for
(26:27):
Financial Accountability foundthat 94% of ministry leaders and
board chairs believe thatleadership failures are
negatively impacting donor trust, according to Gallup poll.
Here's another one about publictrust toward clergy in 2024,
less than a third of Americansview pastors as highly honest
(26:50):
and ethical.
Okay, so, and I think a lot ofthis has to do with the
frequencies of failure.
While exact statistics are,some of these statistics are
questionable in my opinion, butsome of them have some merit.
They may be a little off, butthey are addressing some
critical issues and asking greatquestions.
(27:10):
One source claims that 40% ofpastors polled admitted to
having extramarital affairssince beginning their ministry.
The same source reports that70% of pastors consistently
fight depression.
50% feel so discouraged thatthey would leave the ministry.
If they could that they wouldleave the ministry as they could
.
I'm a country boy.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I'm from West Virginia.
I don't know nothing about thisbig time stuff.
I never even asked to be big.
I wanted to be effective, notfamous.
Famous is the consequences ofbeing effective.
I didn't know nothing aboutbeing famous and I didn't like
it.
And the first time I was in theWashington Post the article was
(27:59):
so vicious it made me nauseous.
I was so shocked that you couldsay that stuff about somebody
you didn't even know.
Based on assumptions and alittle bit of this and a little
bit of that, they piece it alltogether and you don't get the
same thing back.
So I decided I don't want this.
I was preaching for PastorBishop Donnie Mears, and nobody
knew it, because preachers canoverride their feelings and
(28:19):
function.
I preached the places on fire,but inside I want to quit.
I told God I'm through withthis.
I'm not going through this.
I don't need this.
I don't see, I don't need that.
I'm not going through this.
I don't need this.
I don't see, I don't need that.
I'm a guy who likes to go gethis own chicken wings.
I don't have to have all ofthat stuff to be happy.
So I said I'm not doing this,no more, I'm not doing it.
(28:40):
I'm not doing this.
I'm not doing this because Idon't need this and I didn't ask
for this.
I'm only doing this because ofwhat happened in my life, of the
circumstances that happened inmy life.
He put me on stage.
I didn't ask for it and when Isaw how much it costs I thought
you can have that right backhere.
You can have that right back upin here.
I don't need it.
So I was mad inside and I washurt and I stayed up in the
(29:03):
fellowship with the pastorsbecause I didn't want to go back
to my room and sulk in my ownsorrows.
And they said there's a ladydown in the chair waiting to see
you.
The service was over and thefellowship was over.
The pastor was starting toleave.
I was trying to outwait her.
I thought she'd give up andleave and when I finally came
down the steps, she was thereand she was just a willowy bit
(29:25):
of a woman and she said BishopJakes.
She said I've been in thehospital.
She said I was pregnant in myfallopian tubes and the baby
died in my tubes and I wascarrying around a dead baby and
(29:49):
the toxicity from the babyalmost killed me.
And she said the only thingthat kept me alive was hearing
you preach.
She said if you hadn't havebeen preaching to me every day,
(30:09):
I swear I would have died.
And then she looked at me andshe said it's for us.
It's not for them, it's for us.
It hit me so hard I didn't evenget her name.
(30:29):
I got in the car and cried allthe way back to my room.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
But I just want to say this as we kind of push
toward so what do we do with allof this?
Well, you know how do we handlethis.
What are some of theprecautionary measures that we
should take?
Well, in response to theseissues, I would say that there
are standards that need to beput in place to combat this.
(30:57):
And, although that statement Imade is a clear statement, I'm
not sure how we do that.
I'm not 100% sure if thereshould be a general standard we
put in place in order tocounteract that.
And there are some organizationsthat have proposed emphasizing
proactive care and support tohelp leaders maintain their
(31:21):
integrity.
It's really easy for me to saythis is a complex issue, right,
and if we were to be 100% fair,give pastors a fair shake and
ministry leaders and again, I'mnot talking about people who,
well, let's say, I'm talkingabout all of them priests,
clergymen, pastors right, someof them know some of the
(31:45):
organizations they are part of,are aware of the issues, but
they don't address it because itreflects negatively upon the
organization and that's aproblematic because the pastor
gets caught up in that,particularly if you have people
who, in higher echelons, who putpastors in places of of local
ministry, control their livesand thus their livelihood Right?
(32:09):
So, um, I think, what?
What lives and thus theirlivelihood Right?
So I think what most of thisresearch shows us is that
different generations vary intheir perspective.
The more modern generations ofclergy believe that they're a
(32:29):
little bit more cynical aboutchurch.
You think about kids who leavechurch after high school or
don't want to associate withchurch anymore at all.
Okay, so if we talk aboutpreventative measures, right, I
can be tongue-in-cheek, but I'mgoing to say this here are some
quick solutions that I'm goingto share, and when I say
(32:51):
solutions I don't meancomprehensive.
I mean perhaps you, if you havea pastor friend, maybe you can
encourage them and ask themtough questions when they step
down from that sermon on Sundaymorning, instead of you telling
them how good their sermon is.
Ask them questions like how isyour regular prayer life?
Are you reading the Bible?
Are you participating inpersonal devotion?
(33:14):
Is that essential to you?
Are you developing strongrelationships with God and with
people?
Do you have a therapist to helpyou to resist temptation?
Right, ask these importantquestions.
Psalms 119.11 says you know,hiding God's word in your heart
keeps you or helps you.
It doesn't always solve theproblem, but it does help point
(33:36):
you in the right direction.
Two the accountabilitystructures right.
Most churches have elder boards, but your church pastor doesn't
need to have an elder boardthat are full of yes, people,
but it needs to be people whowill ask hard questions.
Iron sharpens iron Psalms 27,17 says so.
(33:56):
One person sharpens another.
The church board is there foroversight, and oversight means
if a pastor or leader doesn'tmaintain a particular standard
that this congregation has set,it doesn't mean that he or she
is perfect.
It just means we want you tolive up to this standard.
(34:17):
Pastors have to be clear.
Board and church elders have toinsist that they be clear and
honest.
I would also recommend self-care, like mental health.
Get a therapist, taking breaksand vacations and seeking
professional counseling.
Some pastors may have mentalhealth issues and the worst
(34:38):
thing we can do if we'reseriously about solving the root
of the problem, right, if apastor has a mental health issue
, do you kick him out, her out,or do you help them work through
that to manage stress andbalance their lives and family
lives.
Okay, so, so these are some,some important things.
So once again, I'm going to saysome preventative measures
(35:00):
would be accountability,accountability, understanding,
spiritual disciplines, self-care, mental health.
These are three things that arevitally important Spiritual
disciplines, accountability,structure and self-care.
If you care about your pastorand you care about their family,
then I highly encourage you toencourage your pastor to seek
(35:20):
out these three things.
Okay, some of the otherimportant topics are some
pastors may have psychologicalsplit, personalities, right I?
There's a psychological theorythat says that personality
understanding a person'spersonality trait as more
conscientious can predict morefailure.
What do I mean by that?
(35:41):
If you know you are strugglingwith man, this is tough, know
you are struggling with man,this is tough.
But if you are a pastor and youhave these different kinds of
struggles like lust or takingmoney or being unethical or
untruthful about things, knowingthat and then addressing that,
(36:03):
hey, to the board, I strugglewith these things before you get
hired, I think, although thisis a far stretch and I just I
know they're not, I mean pastorslistening to this.
You're going to go, you're outof your mind.
I'd never get a church if Isaid something like this.
I'd never if my elder boardknew they'd sit me down
(36:24):
immediately.
Well fine.
I'd never if my elder boardknew they'd sit me down
immediately.
Well, fine, because at the endof the day, my goal here is to
number one help us to refinepastoral ministry, right?
The purpose of our podcast iscalled Words for Change Podcast,
and what I mean by words forchange is something that will
say, either by me, a guest thatI bring on, or something that is
(36:47):
a read or information that webring to you.
It's going to help you be amore authentic person.
One of the reasons why I am notcurrently serving in a pastoral
leadership was because I wantedto see more diversity in
(37:08):
churches, and I felt that whatwas happening in church was just
people speaking in an echochamber, right, people speaking
in an echo chamber instead ofgetting out into the world.
Then that's a conversation foranother day.
But what I'm saying is that Iwasn't living authentically to
(37:30):
myself, so I wanted to changethat, and if that meant that I
needed to leave church to dothat, then so be it.
I want you guys to look upCarton Pearson.
Carton Pearson Lord rest hissoul died recently.
He was the guy who started theAzusa Street Revivals
Pentecostal preacher Church ofGod in Christ.
I think the largest Church ofGod in Christ is the largest
(37:53):
black Pentecostal denominationin the world, I think.
But Carlton Pearson wasresponsible for the introduction
of Bishop TD Jakes and someother Gary Oliver, some of the
famous Pentecostal preachers,speakers, pastors and worship
leaders that we are familiarwith today.
In fact, I have a cousin who'sa singer right now and I
(38:15):
remember him singing years agoat Azusa Street and Lord bless
him as he's out doing God's workright now.
But Carlton Pearson had achurch in Oklahoma I think it
was in Tulsa, oklahoma, and Godspoke to him about that.
There is no hell.
Now I'm not saying that.
I believe that.
I'm just saying this is.
(38:35):
I'm telling you his story.
But he believed that the Lordhad showed him that there was no
such thing as hell and what hewent to his church against some
of his friends in the ministrywho told him don't do it Some of
his Bishop friends.
He went before his church andsaid I don't believe in that,
that doctrine anymore.
(38:56):
And he lost his church, he losthis Sousa street, he lost and
eventually ended up losing hisfamily and eventually lost his
life.
He died because of I think hehad prostate cancer, had come
back.
But when you talk with him he'sgot a book that's called the
Gospel of Inclusion.
His name is Carlton Pearson,p-e-a-r-s-o-n.
(39:17):
Go.
Look him up, bishop CarltonPearson.
He wrote a book called theGospel of Inclusion.
As a matter of fact, some of youwho listened to this episode
you may be familiar with Carlton.
But he said that he just didn'tbelieve those things anymore
and at heart of heart, he tried.
(39:38):
He had grown up a third orfourth generation of Pentecostal
.
Nobody knew church like CarltonPeterson knew church.
He deviated so far away fromwhat his background and
religious spirit, tradition anddoctrine taught him, but he
believed that it was God leadinghim and he went that way.
(39:59):
Now I'm not encouraging that forthe listeners.
What I'm saying is that hewanted to be authentically
himself listeners.
What I'm saying is that hewanted to be authentically
himself.
If that means that you can'tserve a church, doesn't mean
that you can't serve God outsideof a church, all right.
So listen, I have talked a lotand I just want to encourage you
that being a conscientiouspastor, knowing your failures,
(40:25):
knowing your shortcomings andputting them forefront, can
maybe help chisel out a morehealthy leadership posture.
Right Ongoing education isessential.
There's, you know, the days arelong gone to you know, calling
the seminary the cemetery.
Right People.
Young people today wantsensible religion, they want
(40:47):
sensible Christianity, they wantsensible spirituality,
something that they can liveauthentically into for
themselves, but it still allowsthem to be an effective citizen
and to maintain their personalintegrity right and then foster
an environment of transparency Ijust shared that a moment ago
and then foster an environmentof transparency.
I just shared that a moment ago.
So today we've explored thecauses of you know, we talked
(41:10):
about more failure pastors froma biblical perspective and I've
talked about it from apsychological perspective, and
we discussed the importance ofspiritual disciplines,
accountability and self-care,and I want to encourage you to
implement these.
If you're a pastor listening tome, please reach out to me.
I would love to have aconversation.
If you need a friend, or if youknow you have a pastor who
needs a friend, please reach outto me.
(41:32):
I would love to help, to assist, if not anything else, just to
be a listening ear and achaplain core.
It's one of the things that wedo all the time.
We talk about the importance ofself-care and being able to
tell each other really what'sgoing on in our lives and our
family lives, and that's a veryhealthy culture, because no
one's expected to be perfect.
We're expected to be authentic.
(41:54):
Okay, so I want to encourage youto implement these strategies
and let us work together tosupport leaders and hold them up
to integrity, but not just forthe sake of criticism, but to
provide opportunities tostrengthen their character.
Just as pastors and leaders whostood in the gap for you,
(42:15):
prayed for you, who helped yourfamily get through financial
difficulty, who sat at yourbedside and prayed for your
husband while he was sick withcancer, or who came to visit you
late at night when you were injail and nobody else was there
to help you.
Well, that one pastor, that oneleader who went into his or her
(42:39):
own pocket to help bring youout of the miry clay, to bring
you out of a place where you hadno answers and nobody was there
listening to you, these are thepeople that I'm talking about.
There's a lot of good, just asthough there are preachers out
there who do horrible things,there's a lot of good ones out
(43:01):
there too.
So let's close in prayer.
Father, I thank you forlistening.
I thank you, god, that you'vegiven me the insight to at least
have this conversation.
It's a tough one.
I pray in your name that youhelp those who are struggling,
not only their pastors, but thevictims who've been abused or
(43:25):
taken advantage of.
But my efforts here here maynot be in vain, because, at the
end of the day, what we'resimply doing or trying to do in
your name is to help make us allbetter, so that your church can
be more healthy, so that, inturn, communities, states and
(43:47):
our nation and our world can bea better place.
I thank you for everyone who'slistened to this.
I pray your blessings over them, that you would speak to them,
give them wisdom, insight andcourage to not just criticize
but to speak truth with thespirit of love In Jesus' name,
(44:11):
amen.
Well, thank you, guys, forlistening.
Remember, let's strengthen eachother, strengthen our resolve
and support each other, and Isalute you.
Until next time I'll see youback on the other side.
I wish you all the best.
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