August 6, 2024 • 17 mins
As we conclude this powerful discussion, we invite you to join us in a heartfelt prayer for our community. This isn't just about highlighting problems; it's about fostering a supportive network where truth is spoken with love and accountability. We dig into the root causes—unrealistic expectations and a lack of robust support systems—and propose actionable solutions to safeguard the well-being of church leaders and those who trust them. #pastors #moralfailure
Our deepest gratitude for your continued support. Let’s work together to create healthier environments for our church leaders and their congregations. Tune in to gain insights, and encouragement, and be part of a movement towards positive change.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lionel (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Words
for Change podcast.
This is Lionel.
This is our second episodearound the topic of pastors and
moral failure, so we're going tojump right into it, as promised
, as we talk about what's goingon with churches, particularly
church leaders, moral failures,any of the things we're hearing
in the news, and how can weprevent this.
(00:20):
That's the ultimate goal.
What steps do we need to taketo prevent this and prevent
people from being takenadvantage of, victims that we're
praying for?
So let's get into it.
One source claims that 40% ofpastors polled admitted that
having extramarital affairssince beginning their ministry.
The same source reports that70% of pastors consistently
(00:40):
fight depression.
50% feel so discouraged thatthey would leave the ministry if
they could.
Bishop TD Jakes (00:46):
I'm a country boy, I'm from West Virginia.
I don't know nothing about thisbig time stuff.
I just I never even asked to bebig.
I wanted to be effective, notfamous.
Famous is the consequences ofbeing effective.
I didn't know nothing aboutbeing famous and I didn't like
it.
And the first time I was in theWashington Post the article was
(01:12):
so vicious it made me nauseous.
I was so shocked that you couldsay that stuff about somebody
you didn't even know, based onassumptions and a little bit of
this and a little bit of that.
They piece it all together andyou don't get the same thing
back.
So I decided I don't want this.
I was preaching for PastorBishop Donnie Mears and nobody
(01:32):
knew it because preachers canoverride their feelings and
function.
I preached the places on fire,but inside I want to quit.
I told God, I'm through withthis.
I'm not going through this.
I don't need this.
I don't see, I don't need that.
I'm a guy who likes to go gethis own chicken wings.
I don't have to have all ofthat stuff to be happy.
(01:54):
So I said I'm not doing this.
No more, I'm not doing it.
I'm not doing this, I'm notdoing this because I don't need
this and I didn't ask for this.
I'm only doing this because ofwhat happened in my life, of the
circumstances that happened inmy life.
He put me on stage.
I didn't ask for it and when Isaw how much it cost I thought
you can have that right backhere.
You can have that right back upin here.
(02:15):
I don't need it.
So I was mad inside and I washurt and I stayed up in the
fellowship with the pastorsbecause I didn't want to go back
to my room and sulk in my ownsorrows.
And they said there's a ladydown the stairs waiting to see
you.
The service was over and thefellowship was over.
The pastor was starting toleave.
I was trying to outweigh her.
I thought she'd give up andleave and when I finally came
(02:36):
down the steps, she was thereand she was just a willowy bit
of a woman.
And she said Bishop Jakes.
She said I've been in thehospital.
She said I was pregnant in myfallopian tubes and the baby
(03:00):
died in my tubes and I wascarrying around a dead baby and
the toxicity from the babyalmost killed me.
And she said the only thingthat kept me alive was hearing
you preach.
She said if you hadn't beenpreaching to me every day, I
(03:25):
swear I would have died.
And then she looked at me andshe said it's for us, it's not
for them, it's for us.
It hit me so hard I didn't evenget her name.
Lionel (03:47):
I got in the car and cried all the way back to my
room it's really easy for me tosay this is a complex issue,
right, and if we were to be 100%fair, give pastors a fair shake
and ministry leaders and again,I'm not talking about people
who, well, let's say, I'mtalking about all of them priest
(04:08):
, clergymen, pastors right, someof them know some of the
organizations they are part of,are aware of the issues, but
they don't address it because itreflects negatively upon the
organization and that's aproblematic because the pastor
gets caught up in that,particularly if you have people
(04:28):
who, in higher echelons, who putpastors in places of local
ministry, control their livesand thus their livelihood, right
.
So most of this research showsus is that different generations
vary in their perspective.
The more modern generations ofclergy believe that they're a
(04:53):
little bit more cynical aboutchurch.
You think about kids who leavechurch after high school or
don't want to disassociate withchurch anymore at all.
Okay, so if we talk aboutpreventative measures, right, I
can be tongue-in-cheek, but I'mgoing to say this here are some
quick solutions that I'm goingto share, and when I say
(05:15):
solutions, I don't meancomprehensive, I mean perhaps
you, if you have a pastor friend, maybe you can encourage them
and ask them tough questionswhen they step down from that
sermon on Sunday morning,instead of you telling them how
good their sermon is, ask themquestions like how is your
regular prayer life?
Are you reading the Bible?
Are you participating inpersonal devotion?
(05:38):
Is that essential to you?
Are you developing strongrelationships with God and with
people?
Do you have a therapist to helpyou to resist temptation Right?
Ask these important questions.
Psalms 119.11 says you know,hiding God's word in your heart
keeps you or helps you.
It doesn't always solve theproblem, but it does help point
(06:00):
you in the right direction.
Two, the accountabilitystructures.
Right, most churches have elderboards, but your church pastor
doesn't need to have an elderboard that are full of, yes,
people, but it needs to bepeople who will ask hard
questions.
Iron sharpens iron.
Psalms 27, 17 says so.
(06:20):
One person sharpens another.
The church board is there foroversight, and oversight means
if a pastor or leader doesn'tmaintain a particular standard
that this congregation has set,it doesn't mean that he or she
is perfect.
It just means we want you tolive up to this standard.
(06:41):
Pastors have to be clear.
Board and church elders have toinsist that they be clear and
honest.
I would also recommend self-care, like mental health, get a
therapist, taking breaks andvacations and seeking
professional counseling.
Some pastors may have mentalhealth issues and the worst
(07:02):
thing we can do if we'reseriously about solving the root
of the problem right, if apastor has a mental health issue
, do you kick him out, her outor do you help them work through
that to manage stress andbalance their lives and family
lives.
Okay, so these are someimportant things.
So, once again, I'm going tosay some preventative measures
(07:24):
would be accountability,understanding, spiritual
disciplines, self-care, mentalhealth.
These are three things that arevitally important Spiritual
disciplines, accountability,structure and self-care.
If you care about your pastorand you care about their family,
then I highly encourage you toencourage your pastor to seek
(07:45):
out these three things.
Okay, some of the otherimportant topics are some
pastors may have psychologicalsplit personalities.
Right, there's a psychologicaltheory that says that
personality understanding aperson's personality trait as
more conscientious can predictmore failure.
What do I mean by that?
(08:05):
If you know you are strugglingwith man, this is tough.
But if you are a pastor and youhave these different kinds of
struggles, like lust or takingmoney or being unethical or
untruthful about things, knowingthat and then addressing that,
(08:28):
hey to the board.
I struggle with these thingsbefore you get hired.
I think although this is a farstretch and I just I know
they're not I mean pastorslistening to this you're going
to go.
You're out of your mind.
I'd never get a church if Isaid something like this.
I'd never.
If my elder board knew, they'dsit me down immediately.
(08:49):
Well fine, because at the endof the day, my goal here is to
number one help us to refinepastoral ministry Right.
The purpose of our podcast iscalled Words for Change Podcast
podcast, and what I mean bywords for change is something
that was said either by me, aguest that I bring on, or
(09:10):
something that is I read, orinformation that we bring to you
.
It's going to help you be amore authentic person.
One of the reasons why I am notcurrently serving in a pastoral
leadership was because I wantedto see more diversity in
(09:32):
churches, and I felt that whatwas happening in church was just
people speaking in an echochamber right, people speaking
in an echo chamber instead ofgetting out into the world.
Then that's a conversation foranother day, but what I'm saying
is that I wasn't livingauthentically to myself, so I
(09:55):
wanted to change that, and ifthat meant that I needed to
leave church to do that, then sobe it.
I want you guys to look upCarton Pearson.
Carton Pearson, lord Rest HisSoul, died recently.
He was the guy who started theAzusa street revivals
pentecostal preacher church ofgod and christ, I think, is what
?
What?
Uh, the largest church of godand christ is the largest black
(10:18):
pentecostal denomination in theworld, I think.
And but carton pearson wasresponsible for the introduction
of bishop td jakes and someother Gary Oliver, some of the
famous Pentecostal preachers,speakers, pastors and worship
leaders that we are familiarwith today.
In fact, I have a cousin who'sa singer right now and I
(10:39):
remember him singing years agoat Azusa Street and Lord bless
him as he's out doing God's workright now.
Lord bless him as he's outdoing God's work right now.
But Carlton Pearson had a churchin Oklahoma I think it was in
Tulsa, oklahoma and God spoke tohim about that.
There is no hell.
Now, I'm not saying that.
I believe that.
I'm just saying this is.
(10:59):
I'm telling you his story.
But he believed that the Lordhad showed him that there was no
such thing as hell.
The Lord had showed him thatthere was no such thing as hell
and what?
He went to his church againstsome of his friends in the
ministry who told him don't doit Some of his bishop friends.
He went before his church andsaid I don't believe in that,
that doctrine anymore and helost his church.
(11:22):
He lost Azusa Street.
He lost and eventually ended uplosing his family and
eventually lost his life.
He died because of I think hehad prostate cancer, had come
back.
But when you talk with him he'sgot a book that's called the
Gospel of Inclusion.
Name is Carlton Pearson,p-e-a-r-s-o-n.
Go look him up, bishop CarltonPearson.
(11:48):
He wrote a book called theGospel of Inclusion.
As a matter of fact, some ofyou who listen to this episode
you may be familiar with Carlton.
But he said that he just didn'tbelieve those things anymore
and at heart of heart he tried.
He had grown up a third orfourth generation of Pentecostal
.
Nobody knew church like CarltonPeterson knew church.
(12:08):
He deviated so far away fromwhat his background and
religious spirit, tradition anddoctrine taught him.
But he believed that it was Godleading him and he went that
way.
Now I'm not encouraging that forthe listeners.
What I'm saying is that hewanted to be authentically
himself.
(12:29):
If that means that you can'tserve a church doesn't mean that
you can't serve God outside ofa church, all right.
So listen, I have talked a lotand I just want to encourage you
that being a conscientiouspastor, knowing your failures,
knowing your shortcomings andputting them forefront can maybe
(12:53):
help chisel out a more healthyleadership posture.
Ongoing education is essential.
The days are long gone tocalling the seminary the
cemetery.
Young people today wantsensible religion.
They want sensible Christianity, they want sensible
(13:13):
spirituality, something thatthey can live authentically into
for themselves.
But it still allowed them to bean effective citizen and to
maintain their personalintegrity right and then foster
an environment of transparency.
I just shared that a moment ago.
So today we've explored thecauses of.
You know, we talked about morefailure pastors from a biblical
(13:36):
perspective and I've talkedabout it from a psychological
perspective, and we discussedthe importance of spiritual
disciplines, accountability andself-care, and I want to
encourage you to implement these.
If you're a pastor listening tome, please reach out to me.
I would love to have aconversation.
If you need a friend, or if youknow you have a pastor who
needs a friend, please reach outto me.
I would love to help, to assist, if not anything else, just to
(14:00):
be a listening ear and achaplain corps.
It's one of the things that wedo all the time.
We talk about the importance ofself-care and being able to
tell each other really what'sgoing on in our lives and our
family lives, and that's a veryhealthy culture, because no
one's expected to be perfect.
We're expected to be authentic.
Ok, so I want to encourage youto implement these strategies
(14:21):
and let us work together tosupport leaders and hold them up
to integrity, but not just forthe sake of criticism, but to
provide opportunities tostrengthen their character.
Just as pastors and leaders whostood in the gap for you,
prayed for you, who helped yourfamily get through financial
(14:43):
difficulty, who sat at yourbedside and prayed for your
husband while he was sick withcancer, or who came to visit you
late at night when you were injail and nobody else was there
to help you.
Or that one pastor or that oneleader who went into his or her
(15:03):
own pocket to help bring you outof the miry clay, to bring you
out of a place where you had noanswers and nobody was there
listening to you.
These are the people that I'mtalking about.
There's a lot of good, just asthough there are preachers out
there who do horrible things.
(15:23):
There's a lot of good ones outthere too, so let's close in
prayer.
Father, I thank you forlistening.
I thank you, god, that you'vegiven me the insight to at least
have this conversation.
It's a tough one, but I pray inyour name that you help those
who are struggling not onlytheir pastors, but the victims
(15:46):
who've been abused or takenadvantage of.
But my efforts here may not bein vain, because, at the end of
the day, what we're simply doing, we're trying to do in your
name, is to help make us allbetter so that your church can
be more healthy.
Better so that your church canbe more healthy, so that, in
(16:13):
turn, communities, states andour nation and our world can be
a better place.
I thank you for everyone who'slistened to this.
I pray your blessings over them, that you would speak to them,
give them wisdom, insight andcourage to not just criticize
but to speak truth, with thespirit of love in Jesus name,
(16:35):
amen.
Well, thank you guys forlistening.
Remember, let's strengthen eachother, strengthen our resolve
and support each other, and Isalute you until next time.
I see you back on the otherside.
I salute you until next time Isee you back on the other side.
I wish you all the best.
The stories, interviews andopinions of this podcast are
(16:58):
independently owned by the hostand guests and are not supported
by the Department of Defenseand are not intended to be taken
as medical advice or replacemedical care from a licensed
professional when appropriate.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Words
for Change podcast.
This is Lionel.
This is our second episodearound the topic of pastors and
moral failure, so we're going tojump right into it, as promised
, as we talk about what's goingon with churches, particularly
church leaders, moral failures,any of the things we're hearing
in the news, and how can weprevent this.
(00:20):
That's the ultimate goal.
What steps do we need to taketo prevent this and prevent
people from being takenadvantage of, victims that we're
praying for?
So let's get into it.
One source claims that 40% ofpastors polled admitted that
having extramarital affairssince beginning their ministry.
The same source reports that70% of pastors consistently
(00:40):
fight depression.
50% feel so discouraged thatthey would leave the ministry if
they could.
Bishop TD Jakes (00:46):
I'm a country boy, I'm from West Virginia.
I don't know nothing about thisbig time stuff.
I just I never even asked to bebig.
I wanted to be effective, notfamous.
Famous is the consequences ofbeing effective.
I didn't know nothing aboutbeing famous and I didn't like
it.
And the first time I was in theWashington Post the article was
(01:12):
so vicious it made me nauseous.
I was so shocked that you couldsay that stuff about somebody
you didn't even know, based onassumptions and a little bit of
this and a little bit of that.
They piece it all together andyou don't get the same thing
back.
So I decided I don't want this.
I was preaching for PastorBishop Donnie Mears and nobody
(01:32):
knew it because preachers canoverride their feelings and
function.
I preached the places on fire,but inside I want to quit.
I told God, I'm through withthis.
I'm not going through this.
I don't need this.
I don't see, I don't need that.
I'm a guy who likes to go gethis own chicken wings.
I don't have to have all ofthat stuff to be happy.
(01:54):
So I said I'm not doing this.
No more, I'm not doing it.
I'm not doing this, I'm notdoing this because I don't need
this and I didn't ask for this.
I'm only doing this because ofwhat happened in my life, of the
circumstances that happened inmy life.
He put me on stage.
I didn't ask for it and when Isaw how much it cost I thought
you can have that right backhere.
You can have that right back upin here.
(02:15):
I don't need it.
So I was mad inside and I washurt and I stayed up in the
fellowship with the pastorsbecause I didn't want to go back
to my room and sulk in my ownsorrows.
And they said there's a ladydown the stairs waiting to see
you.
The service was over and thefellowship was over.
The pastor was starting toleave.
I was trying to outweigh her.
I thought she'd give up andleave and when I finally came
(02:36):
down the steps, she was thereand she was just a willowy bit
of a woman.
And she said Bishop Jakes.
She said I've been in thehospital.
She said I was pregnant in myfallopian tubes and the baby
(03:00):
died in my tubes and I wascarrying around a dead baby and
the toxicity from the babyalmost killed me.
And she said the only thingthat kept me alive was hearing
you preach.
She said if you hadn't beenpreaching to me every day, I
(03:25):
swear I would have died.
And then she looked at me andshe said it's for us, it's not
for them, it's for us.
It hit me so hard I didn't evenget her name.
Lionel (03:47):
I got in the car and cried all the way back to my
room it's really easy for me tosay this is a complex issue,
right, and if we were to be 100%fair, give pastors a fair shake
and ministry leaders and again,I'm not talking about people
who, well, let's say, I'mtalking about all of them priest
(04:08):
, clergymen, pastors right, someof them know some of the
organizations they are part of,are aware of the issues, but
they don't address it because itreflects negatively upon the
organization and that's aproblematic because the pastor
gets caught up in that,particularly if you have people
(04:28):
who, in higher echelons, who putpastors in places of local
ministry, control their livesand thus their livelihood, right
.
So most of this research showsus is that different generations
vary in their perspective.
The more modern generations ofclergy believe that they're a
(04:53):
little bit more cynical aboutchurch.
You think about kids who leavechurch after high school or
don't want to disassociate withchurch anymore at all.
Okay, so if we talk aboutpreventative measures, right, I
can be tongue-in-cheek, but I'mgoing to say this here are some
quick solutions that I'm goingto share, and when I say
(05:15):
solutions, I don't meancomprehensive, I mean perhaps
you, if you have a pastor friend, maybe you can encourage them
and ask them tough questionswhen they step down from that
sermon on Sunday morning,instead of you telling them how
good their sermon is, ask themquestions like how is your
regular prayer life?
Are you reading the Bible?
Are you participating inpersonal devotion?
(05:38):
Is that essential to you?
Are you developing strongrelationships with God and with
people?
Do you have a therapist to helpyou to resist temptation Right?
Ask these important questions.
Psalms 119.11 says you know,hiding God's word in your heart
keeps you or helps you.
It doesn't always solve theproblem, but it does help point
(06:00):
you in the right direction.
Two, the accountabilitystructures.
Right, most churches have elderboards, but your church pastor
doesn't need to have an elderboard that are full of, yes,
people, but it needs to bepeople who will ask hard
questions.
Iron sharpens iron.
Psalms 27, 17 says so.
(06:20):
One person sharpens another.
The church board is there foroversight, and oversight means
if a pastor or leader doesn'tmaintain a particular standard
that this congregation has set,it doesn't mean that he or she
is perfect.
It just means we want you tolive up to this standard.
(06:41):
Pastors have to be clear.
Board and church elders have toinsist that they be clear and
honest.
I would also recommend self-care, like mental health, get a
therapist, taking breaks andvacations and seeking
professional counseling.
Some pastors may have mentalhealth issues and the worst
(07:02):
thing we can do if we'reseriously about solving the root
of the problem right, if apastor has a mental health issue
, do you kick him out, her outor do you help them work through
that to manage stress andbalance their lives and family
lives.
Okay, so these are someimportant things.
So, once again, I'm going tosay some preventative measures
(07:24):
would be accountability,understanding, spiritual
disciplines, self-care, mentalhealth.
These are three things that arevitally important Spiritual
disciplines, accountability,structure and self-care.
If you care about your pastorand you care about their family,
then I highly encourage you toencourage your pastor to seek
(07:45):
out these three things.
Okay, some of the otherimportant topics are some
pastors may have psychologicalsplit personalities.
Right, there's a psychologicaltheory that says that
personality understanding aperson's personality trait as
more conscientious can predictmore failure.
What do I mean by that?
(08:05):
If you know you are strugglingwith man, this is tough.
But if you are a pastor and youhave these different kinds of
struggles, like lust or takingmoney or being unethical or
untruthful about things, knowingthat and then addressing that,
(08:28):
hey to the board.
I struggle with these thingsbefore you get hired.
I think although this is a farstretch and I just I know
they're not I mean pastorslistening to this you're going
to go.
You're out of your mind.
I'd never get a church if Isaid something like this.
I'd never.
If my elder board knew, they'dsit me down immediately.
(08:49):
Well fine, because at the endof the day, my goal here is to
number one help us to refinepastoral ministry Right.
The purpose of our podcast iscalled Words for Change Podcast
podcast, and what I mean bywords for change is something
that was said either by me, aguest that I bring on, or
(09:10):
something that is I read, orinformation that we bring to you
.
It's going to help you be amore authentic person.
One of the reasons why I am notcurrently serving in a pastoral
leadership was because I wantedto see more diversity in
(09:32):
churches, and I felt that whatwas happening in church was just
people speaking in an echochamber right, people speaking
in an echo chamber instead ofgetting out into the world.
Then that's a conversation foranother day, but what I'm saying
is that I wasn't livingauthentically to myself, so I
(09:55):
wanted to change that, and ifthat meant that I needed to
leave church to do that, then sobe it.
I want you guys to look upCarton Pearson.
Carton Pearson, lord Rest HisSoul, died recently.
He was the guy who started theAzusa street revivals
pentecostal preacher church ofgod and christ, I think, is what
?
What?
Uh, the largest church of godand christ is the largest black
(10:18):
pentecostal denomination in theworld, I think.
And but carton pearson wasresponsible for the introduction
of bishop td jakes and someother Gary Oliver, some of the
famous Pentecostal preachers,speakers, pastors and worship
leaders that we are familiarwith today.
In fact, I have a cousin who'sa singer right now and I
(10:39):
remember him singing years agoat Azusa Street and Lord bless
him as he's out doing God's workright now.
Lord bless him as he's outdoing God's work right now.
But Carlton Pearson had a churchin Oklahoma I think it was in
Tulsa, oklahoma and God spoke tohim about that.
There is no hell.
Now, I'm not saying that.
I believe that.
I'm just saying this is.
(10:59):
I'm telling you his story.
But he believed that the Lordhad showed him that there was no
such thing as hell.
The Lord had showed him thatthere was no such thing as hell
and what?
He went to his church againstsome of his friends in the
ministry who told him don't doit Some of his bishop friends.
He went before his church andsaid I don't believe in that,
that doctrine anymore and helost his church.
(11:22):
He lost Azusa Street.
He lost and eventually ended uplosing his family and
eventually lost his life.
He died because of I think hehad prostate cancer, had come
back.
But when you talk with him he'sgot a book that's called the
Gospel of Inclusion.
Name is Carlton Pearson,p-e-a-r-s-o-n.
Go look him up, bishop CarltonPearson.
(11:48):
He wrote a book called theGospel of Inclusion.
As a matter of fact, some ofyou who listen to this episode
you may be familiar with Carlton.
But he said that he just didn'tbelieve those things anymore
and at heart of heart he tried.
He had grown up a third orfourth generation of Pentecostal
.
Nobody knew church like CarltonPeterson knew church.
(12:08):
He deviated so far away fromwhat his background and
religious spirit, tradition anddoctrine taught him.
But he believed that it was Godleading him and he went that
way.
Now I'm not encouraging that forthe listeners.
What I'm saying is that hewanted to be authentically
himself.
(12:29):
If that means that you can'tserve a church doesn't mean that
you can't serve God outside ofa church, all right.
So listen, I have talked a lotand I just want to encourage you
that being a conscientiouspastor, knowing your failures,
knowing your shortcomings andputting them forefront can maybe
(12:53):
help chisel out a more healthyleadership posture.
Ongoing education is essential.
The days are long gone tocalling the seminary the
cemetery.
Young people today wantsensible religion.
They want sensible Christianity, they want sensible
(13:13):
spirituality, something thatthey can live authentically into
for themselves.
But it still allowed them to bean effective citizen and to
maintain their personalintegrity right and then foster
an environment of transparency.
I just shared that a moment ago.
So today we've explored thecauses of.
You know, we talked about morefailure pastors from a biblical
(13:36):
perspective and I've talkedabout it from a psychological
perspective, and we discussedthe importance of spiritual
disciplines, accountability andself-care, and I want to
encourage you to implement these.
If you're a pastor listening tome, please reach out to me.
I would love to have aconversation.
If you need a friend, or if youknow you have a pastor who
needs a friend, please reach outto me.
I would love to help, to assist, if not anything else, just to
(14:00):
be a listening ear and achaplain corps.
It's one of the things that wedo all the time.
We talk about the importance ofself-care and being able to
tell each other really what'sgoing on in our lives and our
family lives, and that's a veryhealthy culture, because no
one's expected to be perfect.
We're expected to be authentic.
Ok, so I want to encourage youto implement these strategies
(14:21):
and let us work together tosupport leaders and hold them up
to integrity, but not just forthe sake of criticism, but to
provide opportunities tostrengthen their character.
Just as pastors and leaders whostood in the gap for you,
prayed for you, who helped yourfamily get through financial
(14:43):
difficulty, who sat at yourbedside and prayed for your
husband while he was sick withcancer, or who came to visit you
late at night when you were injail and nobody else was there
to help you.
Or that one pastor or that oneleader who went into his or her
(15:03):
own pocket to help bring you outof the miry clay, to bring you
out of a place where you had noanswers and nobody was there
listening to you.
These are the people that I'mtalking about.
There's a lot of good, just asthough there are preachers out
there who do horrible things.
(15:23):
There's a lot of good ones outthere too, so let's close in
prayer.
Father, I thank you forlistening.
I thank you, god, that you'vegiven me the insight to at least
have this conversation.
It's a tough one, but I pray inyour name that you help those
who are struggling not onlytheir pastors, but the victims
(15:46):
who've been abused or takenadvantage of.
But my efforts here may not bein vain, because, at the end of
the day, what we're simply doing, we're trying to do in your
name, is to help make us allbetter so that your church can
be more healthy.
Better so that your church canbe more healthy, so that, in
(16:13):
turn, communities, states andour nation and our world can be
a better place.
I thank you for everyone who'slistened to this.
I pray your blessings over them, that you would speak to them,
give them wisdom, insight andcourage to not just criticize
but to speak truth, with thespirit of love in Jesus name,
(16:35):
amen.
Well, thank you guys forlistening.
Remember, let's strengthen eachother, strengthen our resolve
and support each other, and Isalute you until next time.
I see you back on the otherside.
I salute you until next time Isee you back on the other side.
I wish you all the best.
The stories, interviews andopinions of this podcast are
(16:58):
independently owned by the hostand guests and are not supported
by the Department of Defenseand are not intended to be taken
as medical advice or replacemedical care from a licensed
professional when appropriate.
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