February 9, 2024 • 50 mins
In this episode, we delve deep into the emotional and mental toll of returning to work after maternity leave. Guests, Clinical Psychologists Kass and Alicia, share their expert advice on overcoming the feelings of self-doubt and imposter syndrome prevalent among working mothers as they return to work after maternity leave. They further question the default narratives about motherhood while stressing the need for understanding, support, and growth.
This engaging conversation challenges the stereotypes around working mothers and highlights how motherhood reveals and sharpens priorities, fostering an unapologetic, more rounded approach towards personal and professional commitments.
In this episode, we also debunk motherhood myths, including the "baby brain" concept, and highlight that motherhood only enhances a woman's capabilities at work, not reduces it. Far from reducing efficiency, parenthood strengthens women's multitasking ability and overall productivity. Kass and Alicia emphasize the need for women, especially mothers, to trust themselves, embrace their motherly lessons, and withstand societal biases.
Join us as we explore the nagging feelings of self-doubt and impostor syndrome - how they impact our daily lives and relationships. We shed light on how to navigate these emotions confidently and reclaim your place in the world of work.
SHOW LINKS:
- Connect with Kass and Alicia on Instagram @tend_women
- Join the Working Mumma Village: workingmumma.com.au/working-mumma-village.
- Get the 3 steps to sharing the mental load workingmumma.com.au/mental-load
- Let's connect on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/company/working-mumma
- Let's connect on Instagram @workingmummacommunity
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to The Working Mama Podcast, a show that provides real-world tips,
tricks, and advice to all working mamas on how they can have a career,
family, and hopefully one day break the glass ceiling.
Hey there, mama. Welcome back to another episode of The Working Mama Podcast.
I'm releasing this in early February 2024, and this week my son has started
(00:24):
school, primary school, for the very very first time.
So that is a whole new level of juggle, I have to say.
9 till 3.30 really does not fit into 9 till 5 as a minimum work hours.
But we're slowly getting it there, managing communication with hubby,
and we're slowly, I think, navigating it.
(00:47):
Also, school lunchboxes. If you've got kids, I'm sure you can relate.
Now, back into a different phase is what we're we're going to talk today about
in the podcast is about the return to work.
And I'm sure many, many people listening have either experienced this or about
to, and I hope you listen to this before you go back to work,
(01:07):
is about the imposter syndrome and particularly around the imposter syndrome of going back to work.
I know that I certainly experienced this and many people do because they're
like, can I still do my job?
Am I worthy of it after having children?
So today Today, I chat with Cass and Alicia, who are two clinical psychologists,
(01:28):
and give so many great hints, tips, and also relatability into this topic to
really normalize and let you know that it's okay to feel this way,
but also support you through it.
And this week's episode is brought to you by The Working Mama Village.
Be sure to go to the website, sign up for the wait list.
Doors are opening in the next couple of weeks. Welcome Cass and Alicia to the
(01:53):
Weapon Mama podcast. How are you both going today?
Good. Thank you. Thanks for having us. I think this is only the second podcast
that I've done with two people.
So it's very exciting and a little bit different. So I hope everyone enjoys
the conversation that we're all about to have.
But just so we get to know you both a little bit better, Cass,
(02:14):
do you want to start off and how would you best describe yourself and what's
been your career journey so far?
Sure. So I'll introduce both of us. We're both clinical psychologist.
We're big advocates of women, both working mums.
So we definitely are very familiar with the jungle and we're very used to leaning
on each other throughout our time of becoming mums.
(02:36):
But we met about 10 years ago when we were doing our doctorate.
So we've been going on a journey together for a long time.
And I'll hand over to Alisa to do a bit of an intro as well. Yeah, yes.
And Karina, Cass and I are both very used to talking together and answering
each other's questions and finishing each other's sentences.
(02:57):
So yeah, so we met 10 years ago doing our job since then.
And we both worked in clinical psychology in the more sort of traditional settings.
And we've also worked in organizational settings as organizational psychologists or in that context.
And I guess the common thread for both of us through our careers working together
(03:19):
and separately has been that time and time again, we, you know,
kept coming across the same story.
I'm sure you have heard it many times too, coming across brilliant women,
you know, talented, capable women who just felt so held back by self-doubt and
these other internal barriers in the workplace. place.
(03:40):
So more recently, I mean, Cass and I have been working together in different
ways for the last decade, but more recently over the last couple of years,
becoming mums ourselves, you know, motherhood has that way of clarifying our priorities.
So we really consolidated our passions and set up our organisation.
And yeah, we're really committed to helping brilliant women to step into their full potential.
(04:05):
So that's a bit about us and how we got to where we are now.
And certainly motherhood, as you said, it certainly does probably clarify what your priorities are.
And I know that I've certainly been through that. And I think that motherhood
changes women in so many ways. Like you think, yep, okay, this is going to be my ma.
This is how I'm going to be. Or I know so many people ask you,
(04:28):
what's your birth story? And hey, what do you want for that?
But no one actually then really considers everything after that 48 hours of
having a child. Absolutely, yeah.
And how much it's actually going to affect you. Whether you're going really good for real.
Yeah exactly like you know in the in the labor classes and things no one actually
prepares you for this is what motherhood is like this is how much it's going to change you and.
(04:53):
It's it's certainly overwhelming you we just don't prepare ourselves enough
for it has that also been your experience as well that you know people it's
so much focus on the birth but not so much on the aftermath and the postpartum
and and the experiences after,
it's actually funny because I was really conscious of this I was thinking okay
I'm gonna invest all this time learning about birth as a you know diligent like oh yeah,
(05:16):
and then I was thinking oh how do I prepare myself for post-birth
like what do I need to learn to be able to do this because I was really daunted
by that and so many of my mom friends had said to me you know oh don't worry
about the birth it's like afterwards that you know you really need to focus
and I tried to find recess resources for it and you know there There was lots
of like guides on how to deal with that's Titus and those sorts of things and sleep schedules.
(05:39):
But unless you have a newborn, you don't really fully understand what it's like.
And it's really hard to actually prepare yourself for it.
Yeah. And I think also there's a lot on the, what would you call it?
Like the doing of being a mom, but not so much on the being of being a mom.
You know, like there's this, you know, put the kids to bed at this time and
(06:02):
feed them this and keep, you know, keep the nutrients up and all those things,
but there's not much on what happens to us internally as a result of becoming
a mom and how to navigate that.
You know, I mean, they only touch on it a little bit and thank goodness for
mother's groups or parents groups, but certainly we need more on that.
Really navigating the internal stuff that happens just for us and having space for that.
(06:25):
And I think, you know, Karina, the work that you're doing, it's almost like
a mother's group for returning. Yeah.
It's a good way. You read it. But it's definitely needed.
Yeah, and that's where I love the topic of matrescence and I think it's something
that people need to be really educated on so much more.
And it wasn't like I, when I, many people have probably heard me told the story
(06:49):
before that when I first did a podcast on matricence, I couldn't even say the word.
Like that's how I didn't even know about it.
And I was probably about two years postpartum from my first child and I couldn't believe it.
But then throughout that whole podcast episode, as I learned about matricence,
it was like this light bulb went off.
But that also needs to be so much part of the journey because that is obviously
(07:13):
the journey and becoming into mom.
And that's where some of the work that I know that's happening around matricence is
so important of that identity shift and
and really that journey where we're going and
I guess there's that initial part of postpartum and
that but then also there's the identity shift as what you
both have already said about them that returning to work because again you're
(07:35):
the person that finished up going on maternity leave is as much as you want
to deny it or accept it it's a different person You've got this little human
being that you've got to think about of who's looking after them and,
you know, what childcare and what are the care arrangements and things.
And that self-doubt is what you said. Like there's so much in that transition returning.
(07:57):
It's so much more. And I say it's actually not a return to work,
but it's more of a transition because definitely as what you said,
Alicia, earlier about that mental of being a working mum.
Yes. So what are you experiencing and what are you seeing through some of your
patients and people that you're interacting with that return to work and some
of the emotions and experiences they're also getting?
(08:19):
Yeah, we definitely hear this a lot because there's just so many mixed emotions
with people returning to work.
You know, there's not only the logistics to think about, as you mentioned,
which are overwhelming and anxiety inducing, but for women that sense of self-doubt
of can I do what I previously did is such a prominent thing for women.
And in our professional experience of working with women we
(08:40):
hear this so much you know women really doubting their capacity
to now do what they previously did and but
the research also backs it up but there was this really interesting research
done by one poll they looked at about a thousand women who were returning to
work and you know the most common out of 10 things the four most common things
(09:00):
that came up or worries that came up for women was all around their their capacity,
you know, a huge percentage were worried that they had to prove themselves to
their colleagues or, you know, doubted, could I do what I used to do?
I've forgotten what I used to do.
Am I going to be competent enough? So there's a lot that women are grappling
with when it comes to returning to work and.
It adds a huge emotional toll to all the logistics and all that other stuff
(09:25):
that they're trying to navigate as well.
Sorry, were you going to say something there, Alicia? Yeah, no,
I was just thinking also about, you know, it sort of ripples out.
So it's not us in isolation. I mean, yes, we're thinking about children,
we're thinking about work and we're trying to think about us and what we want
and where we're heading and how all of that fits together.
But there's also, you know, if you are in a partnership, the negotiation between
(09:48):
who is going to do, you know, who's going to harbour this, you know,
who's going to take this on and who's making more of the shifts.
And that introduces a whole other range of emotions into, yeah,
our relationships and how fair and, you know, equitable and considered and appreciated we feel.
(10:08):
So, yeah, I feel like it really goes beyond the bounds of just us and work.
It really permeates through our lives, yeah.
And I think it's so much of that, probably that invisible burden put onto the
mother of like, well, you've been caring for a child.
You go back, you work out the childcare, you work everything out.
And it's like, but as you say, it's a partnership.
(10:29):
I even had this morning, the conversation with my husband, my son's got a birthday tomorrow morning.
And I said, and I'd spoken to him on Tuesday and said, you need to get the present.
And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said to him this morning,
while you're at the shops over lunch, what are you going to do?
And he goes, I'll get my brother's present. And I'm like, and he goes,
what else? I'm like, and right. He's present. And he's like.
(10:52):
Oh, no, I'm putting this on you because I always do the birthday presents.
And I said, no one's following me up to get the birthday present.
Why should I have to follow you up to get the birthday present? Oh, the follow-ups.
Alicia and I have literally had this same conversation.
I mean, I just last night was having a wine with my husband and anyway,
(11:13):
he was complaining about how you can never find a pseudo cream,
like it's never in the same spot.
And he said, you know, if we can find a solution, you know,
where do we need where do we need the pseudo creams he said
you just tell me where where we need the pseudo creams and i'll
put them in all right don't ask me just do it
anyway you know we can really go on about it
yeah but mental light's huge
(11:35):
and i think that certainly that feeds into that return to work as as a big topic
and it's and it's something that is is huge and it's obviously comes into that
self-doubt because it's i guess that burden that load of can i do this because
Because it's, you know, caring for a child takes a lot.
Can I go back into work and the logistics and things like that?
(11:56):
It certainly seems to be a really big part of it as well.
So how can we navigate that?
And I know that self-doubt is not one, only just the element.
You also see a lot with imposter syndrome as well.
Yeah, well, maybe we can start by talking about, you know, why self-doubt shows up so much.
And then we can talk about what we can do about it. I think it's a really important
(12:17):
point for us to understand. And, yeah, so I think, you know,
one of the things that we hear so often is mums doubting themselves or feeling
like an imposter when we get back to work.
And, you know, imposter syndrome is really triggered in any situation when we
feel like we're doing something new or we feel that we're different or when we feel challenged.
(12:38):
And returning to work or transitioning, as you said, Karina,
to work ticks all of those boxes.
And I think going back to what we're
saying before returning to work we feel different because we are different you
know we have changed our identity has shifted all it's a huge transition all
those pieces have been thrown up in the air we're sort of looking to how they're
(13:01):
going to land they've got all these questions about who am I what matters to
me what's enough what's too much,
you know so we go back into the workplace and we have all of these unanswered
questions there's a a lot of uncertainty brewing internally,
and that's a bit of an internal journey.
But we're also returning to workplaces where in many or most cases,
(13:22):
we feel that those organizations or work contexts don't really cater to us.
We don't really feel like we belong.
In many ways, the workplaces stigmatize working mums.
And so we find ourselves either trying to hide who we are, feeling like we have
to split between, you know, at 9 a.m. I'm a mum and at 9.30.
(13:47):
This person or we're really trying to overcompensate. So, so many times that
process of navigating who we are on the inside and re-entering a place that
we feel like isn't designed for us leaves us feeling uncertain,
unsure, doubting ourselves and in many cases feeling like an imposter.
Yeah, it's such a big part and I know in my own journey, I've actually had to
(14:11):
grow a lot in confidence to be able to stick up for being a working mum.
Like I've had someone say to me me before, you can't travel because you've got
a child. And I was like, no, I can.
I've got a really supportive husband and things like that. And I was like,
I'm sure you haven't said this question to a father. And they're like, ooh.
But it took a bit of internal confidence for me to actually openly hold that
and call out the behaviors.
(14:32):
And I know not everyone may have that confidence or that feeling of support
in an organization that you actually can go and call.
And sometimes it does take someone to call it out and go, it's just like if
someone's bullying you or doing something about it, it's a form of like you've
got to call out these behaviours so people are made aware of, no, it's not okay.
(14:53):
And, you know, organisations really should and need to make people safe because
it's not just the female that's going through this.
It's also a father, which often we forget about in the process.
That's what we're talking about with the mental load. The more that we can also
support fathers in their parenting,
and organisations holding these people, you know, and giving them the permission
(15:13):
to leave work at 4.30, 5 o'clock so they can also do the pick-ups,
that it's not only just the mothers but it's also those workplace cultures. Yeah.
They don't feel so excluded as well. Yeah, my husband really struggles with this.
Every Thursday and Friday when my daughter's at daycare, he has in his diary, daycare pickup.
And without a doubt, every week that gets booked over by a meeting because people
(15:36):
just don't respect that he does that.
Just assume I'll do it or someone else will pick up.
And so, yeah, there's a huge cultural shift that needs to happen,
not just for fathers, but also for working fathers.
And I think once we start to see that a bit more, it
will actually also be easier for working moms yeah definitely
and so now we've gone through like the the what
(15:58):
is like the self-doubt and the imposter syndrome that
how can we yeah i guess
actually probably my next question is what are the factors that are contributing
to this like yeah why are we why are we feeling this way and why do we experience
this self-doubt and imposter syndrome yeah it happens a lot because work when
(16:18):
it comes to imposter syndrome it's actually a a reflection of the context that we're in.
Often women are particularly good at blaming themselves for feeling the way that they do.
But when we step back, if we're in a workplace where we feel underrepresented,
like our needs aren't being accommodated, which doesn't like,
you know, other people don't look like us, it's really hard for us to feel like
we belong. And when we don't belong, we question ourselves.
(16:39):
And all of these questions lead us to feel like an imposter.
So a lot of the time, the reason why we feel the way we do is actually because
of the workplaces we're in and we can't forget that workplaces were designed
for men by men you know specifically,
for factory workers working nine to five in
the 1920s so there's a long way to go for
workplaces and even though there's been you know decades
(17:02):
of women returning to work as a mother many workplaces really struggle to accommodate
their needs effectively you know you always hear of women like having to pump
in the toilet or you know there's one i would say if men had to breastfeed I
bet there'd be like a luxury lounge on every single floor. That's the best one.
There'd be TV, there'd be a little treats here and whatever else.
(17:27):
But that kind of stuff is just not accommodated. So, of course,
women feel like they are questioning themselves.
Do I belong? Should I be here? Do I deserve to be here?
And because women are often so conscientious, any accommodations that their
workplaces make, they think, oh, I really need to appreciate.
Oh, they're so flexible with me. They let me work after hours. was like
you know of all these things that women do
(17:48):
which actually then for themselves actually reinforce them
feeling like an imposter as well unfortunately but yeah at the heart of it it's
because the context that working mothers are in often really don't allow women
to feel like they belong and what can we do about that like if we recognize
that what how can we probably create at the change, not only in ourselves,
(18:11):
the workplaces and those around us.
So hopefully over time, women aren't experiencing this or if they are experiencing
it now, what can they do to manage it?
There's things that we ourselves as women can do and then there's things that
the organisation and our managers and the people that we work with can do.
So I'll start by talking a little bit about what organisations and managers
(18:33):
can do, which we've sort of touched on already. But, you know,
as Cass mentioned, the context that we work in really informs how we feel about ourselves.
And so often the design of the workplace doesn't really accommodate for diverse
needs of the people that work within them, strangely.
And so particularly when it comes to women or parents returning to work,
(18:57):
so much of the rhetoric is deficit.
You know, there's this sort of deficit dialogue around what women can no longer do.
You know, we talk about baby brain and all of this late debt and all the things that women can't do.
And so the way, and I think that's really reflected in a lot of the policies
and procedures that cater for women returning to work.
(19:20):
So often, you know, the, the options that people get when they come back to
work is, well, do you want to do less?
You know, do you want to take on smaller projects? Do you want a smaller team?
Do you want less responsibility?
Do you want to work part time? So do less or do what you did before.
Those are the kind of options.
And that doesn't really reflect the huge transition that a woman's gone through.
(19:43):
You know, we can't necessarily go back to working the way that we used to work
before we had children, but also we shouldn't be required to diminish ourselves to do less.
So I think organisations really need to look more creatively and flexibly at
how we can cater to individual needs. So it's not about mums,
(20:05):
you know, because that is such a diverse group that sit under that umbrella.
It's about the individual having conversations, not about do you want to do
less or how many hours do you want to do, but how can we make this work for you?
What are your needs? You know, and people have so many different needs.
Some people are carers, some people are parents, but, you know,
whether or not that's starting at different times, working in the evenings,
(20:27):
whatever it is, but allowing there to be enough room to reflect the individual.
So I think that's one part of it, but also as a colleague or as a manager,
because Cass and I deliver manager sessions on imposter syndrome.
And one of the things that we really talk about is that one of the key drivers
of imposter syndrome is that so often we feel alone in it.
(20:50):
We doubt ourselves. We don't talk about it. It's really isolating.
And we think it means that there's something wrong with us. And a lot of that
is driven by us comparing ourselves to other people, often other women.
They seem to be getting everything done, holding the fort, getting it all together.
And so I feel like I'm drowning on the inside, but I can't talk about it.
(21:11):
And so one of the things that we really encourage colleagues and managers to
do is to lift the lid on that and to talk more openly about the reality of what
it's like, times when we doubted ourselves, the juggle that we're silently and quietly doing.
And then we show up on a Zoom call and we're all bubbles and we have all the energy in the world.
(21:32):
So yeah I think having more honest
conversations about what things
feel like the concessions that we're making the juggle that we're managing really
helps people and women to feel like I'm not alone and this is a really normal
and expected part of my experience of returning to work yeah and so if women
(21:55):
you know if we're obviously comparing ourselves which is unfortunately unfortunately,
in the day and age that we are every day doing and we're feeling that isolated, what is that first step?
Like if we're just like, right, I don't know if I'm doing it.
And I know that sometimes rather than sometimes reaching out for help,
we probably just go back down into a deeper, darker hole.
(22:16):
You're the professionals, but I know certainly from my experience,
sometimes that's what happens. I'm like, oh, can I do this? Can I not?
And I just like sometimes spiral down. and I know recently actually I spoke
to someone and she helped me pull my pull me out of it and I have to say it's
been amazing so what is it that we can then if we're and how do we also do we
(22:37):
recognize that that's that self-talk that we're actually saying to ourselves.
Yeah, and your point of asking someone how they're going, that can be a really nice thing.
Looking for those signs in people when they seem overwhelmed,
when they seem flustered,
when they might be struggling to turn up on time to things, or they're struggling
(22:59):
to get things done, checking in, like, is there something else going on?
It's a question that we can ask.
But also for ourselves, it's like giving ourselves permission to ask for help.
I think particularly mothers are so used to doing so much on their own.
Allowing yourself to ask for help is actually like a very compassionate thing
that you can do for yourself and a very effective thing that you can do.
(23:21):
So it's really that saying to myself, I don't have to do this on my own.
Because when we step outside of comparing ourselves with others in that sort
of more negative way, we compare ourselves in more of a human way.
We realize that we're all actually struggling and none of us are
alone in struggling with something so if we
are able to tap into that and recognize like there are going to be times
(23:43):
when I need help allowing ourselves to reach out
in those moments there's really one thing that we can do that's different
yeah and one of one of the superpowers of
women is you know we're expert connectors and we thrive in connections so you
know just yesterday I said to Kaz I just don't know how much sleep I need to
feel like I have energy again I'm so tired I've got a one-year-old and a four-year-old
(24:07):
and I was like, you know, do you ever feel this way or two?
And I think that's a useful question, have you ever felt this way too, such a connector?
But Cass said, you know, you know, Kailash, four.
On average, mums in the first year lose about three hours sleep a night.
And you know what? You're right. Actually, I was up all night last night.
(24:29):
But we forget and it's such a helpful reminder and connector and so validating
to just have those conversations, whether it's, you know, maybe you want to
start with friends and then, you know, find a supportive group in the workplace.
But, yeah, finding those connections is so helpful. Yeah.
Yeah, but there's also things that we can do.
(24:50):
Individually in terms of that self-taught stuff, the narrative that we're feeding
ourselves. Cassidy, did you want to chime in on that? Yeah.
So, you know, as Alicia mentioned before, often the conversation is really around
capacity and not being what we are used to being able to do.
And often you hear mum saying things like, I've got a baby brain,
I don't know if I'm going to be able to do stuff.
(25:11):
But, you know, most people would be happy to know that baby brain.
It'll actually be some research on this.
Recently as well. let's debunk that right now so
this is you know when it comes to the mums
i think a lot of it is about debunking some of these myths around their
capacity because you know women are actually inherently very
capable but yeah baby brain is not a thing they looked at like the performance
(25:35):
of pregnant women women who had a child under two and non-pregnant women who
didn't have a child and actually their capacity was comparable across the board
in fact none of the pregnant women and actually outperformed the childless mothers on some things.
So, you know. They always say working mums are very productive,
(25:56):
so that just validates it. Exactly right, yeah.
And the more kids you have, the more productive they found that you are. How am I not surprised?
So, yeah, it's actually, you know, really recognising that if functioning hasn't
been diminished by motherhood, it's actually been fortified by it.
And that's a really big shift that mothers can start to make for themselves.
And without looking at the facts, you know, we are actually not diminished. You might be tired. Yes.
(26:20):
But your actually inherent capacity has not changed. And I think that's for
a lot of moms, they're really struggling because they feel like they themselves
have changed as a person.
But their capacity to do things hasn't actually changed.
In fact, if mothers want to sit down and write a list, and we really encourage
people to actually do this, write down all the things that you have learned through motherhood.
Like, you know, the times that you've surprised yourself, how deep you've had
(26:43):
to dig, what are the wellspring of resources that you've established?
What are some of the emotional resources you've had to navigate and tap into?
Mothers have developed so many skills, whether it's, you know,
being able to be fiercely compassionate and advocate for someone or set boundaries,
multitask, reassess priorities.
There's so many things that mothers have taken on which are new for them.
(27:06):
And unfortunately often these things are undervalued or
invisible in the workplace and that's why it's really
hard for women to recognize these things but these
are actually this like huge extended capacity that women are bringing into the
workplace with them and yes if you want something done ask a working mother
to do it but yeah that's one thing but yeah we really encourage women to sit
(27:29):
down and reflect just on how much they've actually learned even if you think
about Now, Alicia was saying to me before,
remember that first week when you come home with your first born and you're just like,
what on earth did I do with this kid?
How do I leave the house?
Yeah. How did you manage to leave the house? What did you do?
Because then women start to develop a sense of self-trust that they can actually
(27:52):
handle whatever comes at them.
And I think a lot of women expect to feel confident, but you don't really feel
confident until you've done something for a while.
Though instead it's about recognizing that they can trust themselves that they
can get through it and that they'll be able to pick themselves up if things
don't go well because they're certainly as a parent if things don't go well
and you know what you pick yourself up yes and.
(28:14):
I think that's such an important message about trust and you're so true about confidence.
You know, you've got to be an expert if you've done something for 10,000 hours or something. Yeah.
But if you've, you know, as we're returning back into work, we've never done
it before of having a kid and going to work and doing all the childcare drop-off
pickups and logistics and thinking about this other human.
(28:37):
So, of course, naturally, that first day, just like as a new mum,
you're not confident. and that first nappy change, I don't know about you, I had no idea.
My son was in the NICU and so I'm trying to put my two arms through and pee
literally went everywhere.
My husband had a good old laugh and he still reminds me about it and I was like,
I had no idea. It was the first nappy I literally changed.
(29:00):
But now I'm in comfort and I can wrestle my two-and-a-half-year-old that's like
an octopus or an alligator.
But I guess it's so true that we expect and
we put this expectation on ourselves yep right day one
I'm gonna be fine but it's really more
about that self-trust isn't it yeah absolutely
and it's a process you know and we we learn
(29:24):
in steps the same way that we did with motherhood
you know each week each developmental milestone you're learning something new
about your kid and also about you and your growing capacity and I think it's
such an important lesson that we learn and take ways that you know I learn in
steps and I can handle all things and that I grow as I go and if we apply that same message
(29:44):
to any new situation or any transition, including when we go back to work,
then, you know, we can really go into it feeling more solid in ourselves and
more trusting in our capacity.
Yeah. Yeah, we're big advocates of self-trust.
Yeah. And also you can do it imperfectly as well. You know, I think there's,
for women, we really love to do everything right. Yeah.
(30:08):
We've often been conditioned to do everything perfectly, but giving ourselves
permission to do things imperfectly releases that burden as well.
Yeah, and look, no one does their job right. Like no one ever goes to,
like as much as we want to, we go to work every day trying to do our best.
There are like, no one's doing it right. Everyone's sort of figuring it out.
It's just like when someone starts a new role, we know they're not going to
(30:31):
be able to get to be skilled up.
It's going to take them probably three, six, 12 months to be right there.
So it's exactly the same mentality as well, returning back into work.
Because, you know, in the economic situation we're in at the moment,
things are changing, people have changed and new probably processes and things like that.
So no doubt probably some part of the organisation is also struggling with some change elements.
(30:54):
You can't be expected to come in and just sort of kick off
where you've last left off because naturally the organisation
has moved in a direction and you've also got to transition
and really be re-inducted almost in into
that yeah and also starting new
roles as well yeah another added challenge so not
only for double whammy you know not only are you starting a new job you're also
(31:15):
doing it with a whole new set of conditions yeah it's certainly i know there's
certainly those changes because often yeah we are going from i know personally
and i know many many women go from full-time work down to part-time work because
they do want that flexibility and the change of hours so yeah Yeah, naturally,
sometimes those roles and responsibilities do change and the like.
So yeah, it's so important.
(31:38):
Is there anything else just related to managing imposter syndrome?
So as you return back into work, is it something like people can journal just
to recognize some of the behaviors and just go, oh, yeah, cool.
I am actually doing okay. Just again, of just managing them,
that self-talk. or are there some other strategies that women can apply to support
(31:59):
that transition? I think.
Allowing ourselves to do it imperfectly, to go back, trusting that we'll learn
as we go and that we can handle new things and new experiences.
I mean, the other thing that I think women need to be really aware of is there's
actually a lot of insidious stigma and stereotypes around women who return from work.
(32:23):
And it starts really early on, like the second people find out that you're pregnant,
they already assume that you're less intelligent, less competent, less committed.
And that also then affects women once they return with a child so we know that
mothers earn less they're less likely to be promoted they're often lower starting
salaries so there's all these things unfortunately that happen in our society
which women then internalize which then again makes them feel like they're inadequate
(32:47):
or some way or their capabilities diminished,
so coming into workplaces with your eyes wide open i think can be a really shortfall
thing for mothers to be aware of that if they're feeling that way it's not their
fault that that they're feeling that way and becoming really aware of these
biases and starting to shift the narrative around mothers and recognizing them
for all that they are doing,
(33:07):
I think is a really helpful way that we can start to change the conversation here.
So that we're not getting hooked into some of those unhelpful stereotypes because
unfortunately we just end up going with them a lot of the time without even knowing.
Oh, 100%. When I was pregnant with my second child, it was actually during COVID
and we're in lockdowns here in Melbourne for years on end.
(33:27):
And so when I found out I was pregnant, I actually didn't tell anyone for quite
a while until I had to, because I'd also had some issues in the past.
I just wanted to make sure I got through 13 weeks. Yeah.
But then I didn't tell colleagues very deliberately because I was like,
I don't want you to judge because I'm pregnant and I just wanted you to know me for my role.
And it wasn't until a little bit later on it was like, look,
(33:50):
we're going to be recruiting, someone's coming in and that.
So it was actually a period of time that I actually enjoyed not being judged
or, oh, okay, next year you won't be here anyway. Yeah. And those assumptions.
The sidelining. The sidelining. so it was really interesting to
actually play like from pregnancy one
(34:10):
I had a loss in the middle so it was interesting how people also like
when I because I'd announced it quite early and so then I announced it quite
late the second time around or the third time around so it's just interesting
the perceptions but I have to say I really enjoyed people not knowing and then
it wasn't until when I went into work to do a handover while I was like 35 week
(34:31):
pregnant and they're like right.
I had the same thing I was seeing clients online and like working as a psychologist,
and all of a sudden I was like yes I'm going on maternity leave and they're like you're doing what,
absolutely no idea it was like that actually yeah I did I did wonder and as
(34:52):
soon as I told people I did actually know if people started to treat me differently
yes oh are you sure you can do that time are you gonna be okay to do that like
all of a sudden they're gonna yeah have a more spray than not be able to focus or do anything yeah yeah,
It was actually quite a lot of fun. I probably did it as a bit of a test,
but it was actually, I enjoyed still being me and I guess also as what we're
(35:14):
talking about a bit earlier, that identity shift.
So being pregnant, as what you said, it's an identity shift.
People treat you different. The perceptions are changing. Oh,
look, right, you're not going to be here in six months' time.
They kind of start to cast you out.
Delaying those conversations was actually, I really have to say,
I enjoyed it that I wasn't in stereotypes or you're pregnant.
But i'm still me as an identity yeah
(35:37):
and even that makes you realize how strong the
stereotypes and prejudices are you know the fact
that you can sense that difference that you enjoy it i mean
it's one of the sort of benefits of working online but
yeah it just shows how present
those things still really are in our
workplaces and how far we have to go yeah it's
(35:59):
it's it's definitely an interesting space than that so is there anything else
like even from a society perspective that you think that you know how can we
start to I guess and transition and I know it's not a switch that's going to
be flicked but what do you think is some of those even milestones,
that we can start to have conversations around and start
(36:20):
to change the dynamics around particularly women returning back into work but
then I guess also then on the other hand to be able to do this we need big supporters
and the number one supporter we probably need in the workplace is going to be
probably our manager and probably our husband or partner so,
we can't make the change ourselves yeah and that's the thing that we really recognise you know.
(36:45):
A lot of the work Alicia and I do is around helping women overcome the systemic
barriers that they've internalized.
That's why we focus on things like imposter syndrome or helping women with their
confidence or finding their voice because it's the system around them that's
made it really hard for women to feel like they can show up as women and as they are, really.
And so, yeah, to your point, Korea, I think it's having the conversations,
(37:07):
workplaces being very conscious and flexibility without it being like,
you know, oh, let's be flexible for you because you're not capable of doing this.
And men becoming very aware of the role that they play or partners becoming
aware of the role that they play as well.
So that they're, and really, yeah, crucifying is a bit of a shift when it comes
to how we're treating working fathers as well.
So that they're able and that the stigma around them taking time out of the
(37:31):
workplace is not being penalized in the same way.
And we are seeing this from shifts, you know, a lot of workplaces are doing
parental leave instead of maternity leave.
But even the terminologies are starting to change a bit.
I think there's a way to go. yeah it's yeah we've in my corporate gig we've
only just had our second father go on maternity parental leave this year and
(37:51):
there was only one person that did it last year two people this year,
but people like i didn't even know that they could do that and i'm like this
was this policy was launched years ago so it's interesting as well that yeah
still having that uptake and father's worried about having the career hit and
things so it's interesting yeah and then i think My brother-in-law is entitled
to it and he's like, no, it's too hard work to go on parental leave.
(38:14):
I'm saying it works. Isn't that the truth?
I'm like, you need to do it. You should operate. You should do it.
Not only is it available to them, it's men taking it up. The willingness, yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah, and I think also, you know, because of that whole deficit dialogue
(38:36):
around women and baby brain and,
you know, all of that stuff, we can also
influence the system by influencing how we speak to ourselves
how we speak about ourselves and the questions
that we ask each other and what we celebrate in each other i
think too often the questions about motherhood how
are you going you know how do you do it how do you balance your professional
(39:00):
and your personal life and they're not actually asking for the how you do it
like teach us your magic they're asking for tell us about how hard it is and
how diminished you are as a result.
They want to disappear the party. That's right.
And, you know, I think there's a way that we can go, even in the conversations
that we have and the conversations we're having at work and the way we speak about ourselves,
(39:21):
when we go back to work or we're interviewing, is how do we talk about ourselves
and our journey into and through motherhood?
You know, what capacities have we developed? What new skills? What resiliencies?
And giving people space to talk about those things starts starts to shift the
conversation, the dialogue, which I think is so important because really it is something that we,
(39:45):
We need to celebrate rather than just accommodate. And not being apologetic about it as well.
I think that's a good thing. Yeah. I think it's, as you're saying,
it's really turned the negative really from a negative into a positive.
So it's really gone, poor you, but actually how empowered you feel,
how that talk and like, no, actually you can do it.
Like I even had people say to me, oh, poor you, you've got to go to four days a week.
(40:08):
And I was like, no, this is my choice. Like I'm the one that's making this decision.
I want to go back work. I want to work four days a week.
Other people around me haven't made, like, this is my decision as me myself.
And I often say to people, I'm a much better mum by working.
I would be a cray-cray stay-at-home mum.
Yeah. I just couldn't do it. I'm feeling that way right now. Yeah.
(40:31):
But, you know, we often talk about if you were to design a boot camp for one
year plus or nine months of pregnancy or whatever,
you know, like a period of time where you could send someone to learn about
resilience and patience and compassion and advocacy and personal strength and personal trust,
(40:51):
you would struggle to come up with a better bootcamp than the journey of motherhood.
And it's funny because, you know, when people return to work,
say we sent them off to some conference in Berlin and they've learned something,
they'd listen to someone talk for two hours, they come back and went,
oh, tell us about what did you learn you know what are we going to learn from
this what are we going to acquire from that but none of those questions surround
(41:13):
women when they return you know from this incredible,
experience a boot camp you know they've come back with all these skills a lot
of them are transferable but we don't as organizations and managers we don't
draw out the full value of that I think and there's a lot of room to shift that
or break yeah yeah celebrate and recognize,
(41:33):
The skills that we're picking up in motherhood, like we often,
as you said, it's that the deficit dialogue, but it really should be...
The amazing skills dialogue there's a big one yeah yes
I think you're right there you know just oh
and recognizing you've birthed this child you've kept
them alive but also you've learned a lot as what
(41:55):
we've said a number of times recognizing that it's
a skill as you said yeah yeah so
we've got a way to go but you know having conversations like
this and you know the work that you're doing I think helps to
to push things along so yeah yeah
more than we can all band together to create the
change and at least also start the conversation I was once at a conference a
(42:18):
couple of months ago and I was talking to a very male audience so I shifted
my conversation to be more male orientated I wasn't just going to bang the female
drum but I put it back on the audience and I actually said to the males I said
what are you doing to to support your partners?
What are you doing to support the females in your team?
And the next day, and even people came up to me and also particularly one father
(42:40):
came up to me the next day and he said, I went home and had a conversation with
my wife and said, I actually do want to share the load a lot more.
I do want to be seen as a role model with my kids and pick them up from childcare and the like.
And I was like, if I've impacted one other person, particularly a father by
having a rhythm, then I'm happy because he's gone home and I've done my job.
(43:01):
He's gone home moment had that conversation because he may not have
had that conversation beforehand but it's certainly
you know changing that narrative around it so
you know it's really important just before we wrap up
is there anything else you want to just add on this i think we could talk about this
all day by the way so yeah i think
having most of it oh one thing
(43:23):
that we haven't touched on the cost of imposter syndrome
for women i think this is useful for the women to
know so they can recognize the signs in themselves but you know
based on the research that cast an idea on self-doubt and
imposter syndrome tends to show up in
one of two ways so you often see when
people are doubting themselves or feeling like an imposter they either go to
(43:44):
underdoing or into overdoing so underdoing is when you're doubting yourself
really holding back you're sort of diminishing yourself you might be avoiding
new opportunities not going for that job not stretching yourself not not stepping
into things that really reflect your full potential.
And when we do that, you know, it means that we're often taking roles or taking
(44:09):
pay cuts and also in that process really losing part of ourselves and part of our identity.
So it really comes at a personal cost. We really feel like we've shrunk as a
result of becoming mums.
The other side of it is that some of us flip into overdoing and we feel like
an imposter so that's when we doubt ourselves we really feel like we want to
(44:29):
prove ourselves to it working hard working long hours trying to perfect everything
and really burning ourselves out in that process,
And that also comes at a huge personal and professional cost.
So I guess it's useful for us,
for each of us to check in on is to sort of just survey how we're going as we're
(44:52):
re-entering the workforce and look at, you know, do I feel like I'm holding
back? Am I hiding? Am I diminishing myself?
Or am I pushing myself so far that I'm really burning myself out?
And both of those are signs that we might be struggling with imposter syndrome
and that we might want to make a shift in how we're managing that. So, yeah.
(45:15):
Yeah. So just on that, so if people are recognising it, what would then be the
next step they need to take?
The next step that they would need to take is really to recognise a bit in that
cycle. Yeah. And, yeah, reach out.
Reach out with all of my help to help them. Yeah. Yeah. Certainly recognising
when they're in that pattern of feeling like an imposter.
Is the first step and then after that it's having conversations
(45:38):
with your manager if you're really finding yourself in those
dynamics it can also be talking to other people about
as well just so that they are able to start to see the patterns and start to
shift out from a bit yeah no it sounds good i think it comes back again to that
self-trust piece you know is because often Often when we're underdoing or overdoing,
(46:03):
it's really fear-based.
We're really responding out of, oh, this feels too much. I'm going to shrink
myself or I'm afraid that I'm not enough. So I'm going to really dive into too much.
But when we come back to and reflect on, you know, what really matters to me,
what feels like enough to me, what feels like too much and what really reflects
(46:24):
my values and the a way that I want to work and contribute,
then we're operating from a place of greater.
Self-trust rather than being driven by all of this sort of external fear.
So yeah, I think sitting down and either having conversations,
you know, in a coaching situation or journaling, reflecting on that stuff helps
(46:45):
us to make decisions and show up at work in a way that really reflects more of who we are.
Fantastic. Now, Cass and Alicia, what do you both do for self-care and fill your cup?
Kessa, do you want to jump in? I love a swim. I feel like the ocean is very, very healing for me.
I lost a big sucker for reality TV.
(47:09):
I behave as a psychologist, but there's nothing better than sometimes being
a bit down and not talking to anyone else than just to watch your favourite reality TV.
This is something I really had to work at
when I first had my first child child
because I was so resentful that I had no time
(47:30):
to myself and from the moment I woke up it was everybody else's
need and I am by no means a morning person but I this is also during COVID so
I but I would force myself up out of bed before the family started to stir and
we had a rooftop at the time so I go up and I just divide my 10 minutes or 20
(47:51):
minutes whatever I had into three and I'd do,
even if I had 15 minutes, I'd do five-minute yoga stretch, five-minute meditation, five-minute journal,
and I would always just expand or contract depending on how much time I had.
And it made the biggest difference to how I'd, you know, show up and feel.
I don't do it all the time, but when I do, and I certainly know when I need to, the cracks show.
(48:16):
Yeah. No, it's so important. Well, thank you so much, Cass and Alicia,
for today's conversation. I know we could go on for a very long time talking about this.
I think it's a topic all three of us are very passionate about,
about supporting women in that return to work.
So how can people find out more about the work that you're doing and also connect with you?
(48:37):
Yeah, so you can visit our website, which is www.tendher.co or you can follow
us on Instagram and our Instagram handle is tend underscore women.
Yeah, and we also, yeah, we run monthly gatherings on topics that we invite
women along to and also, you know, deliver sessions at organisations.
(48:58):
So, yeah, that's where you can find us and connect with us and we'd love to connect with you.
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for you both for this such a,
An uplifting conversation.
Let's hope the conversation certainly changes, but also that the talk that you're
giving yourself, remember that to be of an empowerment one, not in that deficit dialogue.
(49:21):
And if you, Mama, you are returning back into work, certainly reach out.
No matter which community you join, even if you just speak to one other person
about your return to work and that transition, I think it's beneficial no matter who you speak with.
So thank you so much Cass and Alicia thank you
thank you for
(49:42):
listening to the working mama podcast subscribe to the
podcast on itunes spotify or your favorite podcast catcher please also feel
free to contact me on any of the working mama social channels remember mama
is m-u-m-m-a or website www.workingmama.com.au I would appreciate you to share
(50:02):
this podcast with friends and colleagues,
especially those that are parents managing the juggle.
And I would really appreciate if you had to take the time out to leave a review of the podcast.
Thank you and see you next time. Have a great week.
Music.
Welcome to The Working Mama Podcast, a show that provides real-world tips,
tricks, and advice to all working mamas on how they can have a career,
family, and hopefully one day break the glass ceiling.
Hey there, mama. Welcome back to another episode of The Working Mama Podcast.
I'm releasing this in early February 2024, and this week my son has started
(00:24):
school, primary school, for the very very first time.
So that is a whole new level of juggle, I have to say.
9 till 3.30 really does not fit into 9 till 5 as a minimum work hours.
But we're slowly getting it there, managing communication with hubby,
and we're slowly, I think, navigating it.
(00:47):
Also, school lunchboxes. If you've got kids, I'm sure you can relate.
Now, back into a different phase is what we're we're going to talk today about
in the podcast is about the return to work.
And I'm sure many, many people listening have either experienced this or about
to, and I hope you listen to this before you go back to work,
(01:07):
is about the imposter syndrome and particularly around the imposter syndrome of going back to work.
I know that I certainly experienced this and many people do because they're
like, can I still do my job?
Am I worthy of it after having children?
So today Today, I chat with Cass and Alicia, who are two clinical psychologists,
(01:28):
and give so many great hints, tips, and also relatability into this topic to
really normalize and let you know that it's okay to feel this way,
but also support you through it.
And this week's episode is brought to you by The Working Mama Village.
Be sure to go to the website, sign up for the wait list.
Doors are opening in the next couple of weeks. Welcome Cass and Alicia to the
(01:53):
Weapon Mama podcast. How are you both going today?
Good. Thank you. Thanks for having us. I think this is only the second podcast
that I've done with two people.
So it's very exciting and a little bit different. So I hope everyone enjoys
the conversation that we're all about to have.
But just so we get to know you both a little bit better, Cass,
(02:14):
do you want to start off and how would you best describe yourself and what's
been your career journey so far?
Sure. So I'll introduce both of us. We're both clinical psychologist.
We're big advocates of women, both working mums.
So we definitely are very familiar with the jungle and we're very used to leaning
on each other throughout our time of becoming mums.
(02:36):
But we met about 10 years ago when we were doing our doctorate.
So we've been going on a journey together for a long time.
And I'll hand over to Alisa to do a bit of an intro as well. Yeah, yes.
And Karina, Cass and I are both very used to talking together and answering
each other's questions and finishing each other's sentences.
(02:57):
So yeah, so we met 10 years ago doing our job since then.
And we both worked in clinical psychology in the more sort of traditional settings.
And we've also worked in organizational settings as organizational psychologists or in that context.
And I guess the common thread for both of us through our careers working together
(03:19):
and separately has been that time and time again, we, you know,
kept coming across the same story.
I'm sure you have heard it many times too, coming across brilliant women,
you know, talented, capable women who just felt so held back by self-doubt and
these other internal barriers in the workplace. place.
(03:40):
So more recently, I mean, Cass and I have been working together in different
ways for the last decade, but more recently over the last couple of years,
becoming mums ourselves, you know, motherhood has that way of clarifying our priorities.
So we really consolidated our passions and set up our organisation.
And yeah, we're really committed to helping brilliant women to step into their full potential.
(04:05):
So that's a bit about us and how we got to where we are now.
And certainly motherhood, as you said, it certainly does probably clarify what your priorities are.
And I know that I've certainly been through that. And I think that motherhood
changes women in so many ways. Like you think, yep, okay, this is going to be my ma.
This is how I'm going to be. Or I know so many people ask you,
(04:28):
what's your birth story? And hey, what do you want for that?
But no one actually then really considers everything after that 48 hours of
having a child. Absolutely, yeah.
And how much it's actually going to affect you. Whether you're going really good for real.
Yeah exactly like you know in the in the labor classes and things no one actually
prepares you for this is what motherhood is like this is how much it's going to change you and.
(04:53):
It's it's certainly overwhelming you we just don't prepare ourselves enough
for it has that also been your experience as well that you know people it's
so much focus on the birth but not so much on the aftermath and the postpartum
and and the experiences after,
it's actually funny because I was really conscious of this I was thinking okay
I'm gonna invest all this time learning about birth as a you know diligent like oh yeah,
(05:16):
and then I was thinking oh how do I prepare myself for post-birth
like what do I need to learn to be able to do this because I was really daunted
by that and so many of my mom friends had said to me you know oh don't worry
about the birth it's like afterwards that you know you really need to focus
and I tried to find recess resources for it and you know there There was lots
of like guides on how to deal with that's Titus and those sorts of things and sleep schedules.
(05:39):
But unless you have a newborn, you don't really fully understand what it's like.
And it's really hard to actually prepare yourself for it.
Yeah. And I think also there's a lot on the, what would you call it?
Like the doing of being a mom, but not so much on the being of being a mom.
You know, like there's this, you know, put the kids to bed at this time and
(06:02):
feed them this and keep, you know, keep the nutrients up and all those things,
but there's not much on what happens to us internally as a result of becoming
a mom and how to navigate that.
You know, I mean, they only touch on it a little bit and thank goodness for
mother's groups or parents groups, but certainly we need more on that.
Really navigating the internal stuff that happens just for us and having space for that.
(06:25):
And I think, you know, Karina, the work that you're doing, it's almost like
a mother's group for returning. Yeah.
It's a good way. You read it. But it's definitely needed.
Yeah, and that's where I love the topic of matrescence and I think it's something
that people need to be really educated on so much more.
And it wasn't like I, when I, many people have probably heard me told the story
(06:49):
before that when I first did a podcast on matricence, I couldn't even say the word.
Like that's how I didn't even know about it.
And I was probably about two years postpartum from my first child and I couldn't believe it.
But then throughout that whole podcast episode, as I learned about matricence,
it was like this light bulb went off.
But that also needs to be so much part of the journey because that is obviously
(07:13):
the journey and becoming into mom.
And that's where some of the work that I know that's happening around matricence is
so important of that identity shift and
and really that journey where we're going and
I guess there's that initial part of postpartum and
that but then also there's the identity shift as what you
both have already said about them that returning to work because again you're
(07:35):
the person that finished up going on maternity leave is as much as you want
to deny it or accept it it's a different person You've got this little human
being that you've got to think about of who's looking after them and,
you know, what childcare and what are the care arrangements and things.
And that self-doubt is what you said. Like there's so much in that transition returning.
(07:57):
It's so much more. And I say it's actually not a return to work,
but it's more of a transition because definitely as what you said,
Alicia, earlier about that mental of being a working mum.
Yes. So what are you experiencing and what are you seeing through some of your
patients and people that you're interacting with that return to work and some
of the emotions and experiences they're also getting?
(08:19):
Yeah, we definitely hear this a lot because there's just so many mixed emotions
with people returning to work.
You know, there's not only the logistics to think about, as you mentioned,
which are overwhelming and anxiety inducing, but for women that sense of self-doubt
of can I do what I previously did is such a prominent thing for women.
And in our professional experience of working with women we
(08:40):
hear this so much you know women really doubting their capacity
to now do what they previously did and but
the research also backs it up but there was this really interesting research
done by one poll they looked at about a thousand women who were returning to
work and you know the most common out of 10 things the four most common things
(09:00):
that came up or worries that came up for women was all around their their capacity,
you know, a huge percentage were worried that they had to prove themselves to
their colleagues or, you know, doubted, could I do what I used to do?
I've forgotten what I used to do.
Am I going to be competent enough? So there's a lot that women are grappling
with when it comes to returning to work and.
It adds a huge emotional toll to all the logistics and all that other stuff
(09:25):
that they're trying to navigate as well.
Sorry, were you going to say something there, Alicia? Yeah, no,
I was just thinking also about, you know, it sort of ripples out.
So it's not us in isolation. I mean, yes, we're thinking about children,
we're thinking about work and we're trying to think about us and what we want
and where we're heading and how all of that fits together.
But there's also, you know, if you are in a partnership, the negotiation between
(09:48):
who is going to do, you know, who's going to harbour this, you know,
who's going to take this on and who's making more of the shifts.
And that introduces a whole other range of emotions into, yeah,
our relationships and how fair and, you know, equitable and considered and appreciated we feel.
(10:08):
So, yeah, I feel like it really goes beyond the bounds of just us and work.
It really permeates through our lives, yeah.
And I think it's so much of that, probably that invisible burden put onto the
mother of like, well, you've been caring for a child.
You go back, you work out the childcare, you work everything out.
And it's like, but as you say, it's a partnership.
(10:29):
I even had this morning, the conversation with my husband, my son's got a birthday tomorrow morning.
And I said, and I'd spoken to him on Tuesday and said, you need to get the present.
And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I said to him this morning,
while you're at the shops over lunch, what are you going to do?
And he goes, I'll get my brother's present. And I'm like, and he goes,
what else? I'm like, and right. He's present. And he's like.
(10:52):
Oh, no, I'm putting this on you because I always do the birthday presents.
And I said, no one's following me up to get the birthday present.
Why should I have to follow you up to get the birthday present? Oh, the follow-ups.
Alicia and I have literally had this same conversation.
I mean, I just last night was having a wine with my husband and anyway,
(11:13):
he was complaining about how you can never find a pseudo cream,
like it's never in the same spot.
And he said, you know, if we can find a solution, you know,
where do we need where do we need the pseudo creams he said
you just tell me where where we need the pseudo creams and i'll
put them in all right don't ask me just do it
anyway you know we can really go on about it
yeah but mental light's huge
(11:35):
and i think that certainly that feeds into that return to work as as a big topic
and it's and it's something that is is huge and it's obviously comes into that
self-doubt because it's i guess that burden that load of can i do this because
Because it's, you know, caring for a child takes a lot.
Can I go back into work and the logistics and things like that?
(11:56):
It certainly seems to be a really big part of it as well.
So how can we navigate that?
And I know that self-doubt is not one, only just the element.
You also see a lot with imposter syndrome as well.
Yeah, well, maybe we can start by talking about, you know, why self-doubt shows up so much.
And then we can talk about what we can do about it. I think it's a really important
(12:17):
point for us to understand. And, yeah, so I think, you know,
one of the things that we hear so often is mums doubting themselves or feeling
like an imposter when we get back to work.
And, you know, imposter syndrome is really triggered in any situation when we
feel like we're doing something new or we feel that we're different or when we feel challenged.
(12:38):
And returning to work or transitioning, as you said, Karina,
to work ticks all of those boxes.
And I think going back to what we're
saying before returning to work we feel different because we are different you
know we have changed our identity has shifted all it's a huge transition all
those pieces have been thrown up in the air we're sort of looking to how they're
(13:01):
going to land they've got all these questions about who am I what matters to
me what's enough what's too much,
you know so we go back into the workplace and we have all of these unanswered
questions there's a a lot of uncertainty brewing internally,
and that's a bit of an internal journey.
But we're also returning to workplaces where in many or most cases,
(13:22):
we feel that those organizations or work contexts don't really cater to us.
We don't really feel like we belong.
In many ways, the workplaces stigmatize working mums.
And so we find ourselves either trying to hide who we are, feeling like we have
to split between, you know, at 9 a.m. I'm a mum and at 9.30.
(13:47):
This person or we're really trying to overcompensate. So, so many times that
process of navigating who we are on the inside and re-entering a place that
we feel like isn't designed for us leaves us feeling uncertain,
unsure, doubting ourselves and in many cases feeling like an imposter.
Yeah, it's such a big part and I know in my own journey, I've actually had to
(14:11):
grow a lot in confidence to be able to stick up for being a working mum.
Like I've had someone say to me me before, you can't travel because you've got
a child. And I was like, no, I can.
I've got a really supportive husband and things like that. And I was like,
I'm sure you haven't said this question to a father. And they're like, ooh.
But it took a bit of internal confidence for me to actually openly hold that
and call out the behaviors.
(14:32):
And I know not everyone may have that confidence or that feeling of support
in an organization that you actually can go and call.
And sometimes it does take someone to call it out and go, it's just like if
someone's bullying you or doing something about it, it's a form of like you've
got to call out these behaviours so people are made aware of, no, it's not okay.
(14:53):
And, you know, organisations really should and need to make people safe because
it's not just the female that's going through this.
It's also a father, which often we forget about in the process.
That's what we're talking about with the mental load. The more that we can also
support fathers in their parenting,
and organisations holding these people, you know, and giving them the permission
(15:13):
to leave work at 4.30, 5 o'clock so they can also do the pick-ups,
that it's not only just the mothers but it's also those workplace cultures. Yeah.
They don't feel so excluded as well. Yeah, my husband really struggles with this.
Every Thursday and Friday when my daughter's at daycare, he has in his diary, daycare pickup.
And without a doubt, every week that gets booked over by a meeting because people
(15:36):
just don't respect that he does that.
Just assume I'll do it or someone else will pick up.
And so, yeah, there's a huge cultural shift that needs to happen,
not just for fathers, but also for working fathers.
And I think once we start to see that a bit more, it
will actually also be easier for working moms yeah definitely
and so now we've gone through like the the what
(15:58):
is like the self-doubt and the imposter syndrome that
how can we yeah i guess
actually probably my next question is what are the factors that are contributing
to this like yeah why are we why are we feeling this way and why do we experience
this self-doubt and imposter syndrome yeah it happens a lot because work when
(16:18):
it comes to imposter syndrome it's actually a a reflection of the context that we're in.
Often women are particularly good at blaming themselves for feeling the way that they do.
But when we step back, if we're in a workplace where we feel underrepresented,
like our needs aren't being accommodated, which doesn't like,
you know, other people don't look like us, it's really hard for us to feel like
we belong. And when we don't belong, we question ourselves.
(16:39):
And all of these questions lead us to feel like an imposter.
So a lot of the time, the reason why we feel the way we do is actually because
of the workplaces we're in and we can't forget that workplaces were designed
for men by men you know specifically,
for factory workers working nine to five in
the 1920s so there's a long way to go for
workplaces and even though there's been you know decades
(17:02):
of women returning to work as a mother many workplaces really struggle to accommodate
their needs effectively you know you always hear of women like having to pump
in the toilet or you know there's one i would say if men had to breastfeed I
bet there'd be like a luxury lounge on every single floor. That's the best one.
There'd be TV, there'd be a little treats here and whatever else.
(17:27):
But that kind of stuff is just not accommodated. So, of course,
women feel like they are questioning themselves.
Do I belong? Should I be here? Do I deserve to be here?
And because women are often so conscientious, any accommodations that their
workplaces make, they think, oh, I really need to appreciate.
Oh, they're so flexible with me. They let me work after hours. was like
you know of all these things that women do
(17:48):
which actually then for themselves actually reinforce them
feeling like an imposter as well unfortunately but yeah at the heart of it it's
because the context that working mothers are in often really don't allow women
to feel like they belong and what can we do about that like if we recognize
that what how can we probably create at the change, not only in ourselves,
(18:11):
the workplaces and those around us.
So hopefully over time, women aren't experiencing this or if they are experiencing
it now, what can they do to manage it?
There's things that we ourselves as women can do and then there's things that
the organisation and our managers and the people that we work with can do.
So I'll start by talking a little bit about what organisations and managers
(18:33):
can do, which we've sort of touched on already. But, you know,
as Cass mentioned, the context that we work in really informs how we feel about ourselves.
And so often the design of the workplace doesn't really accommodate for diverse
needs of the people that work within them, strangely.
And so particularly when it comes to women or parents returning to work,
(18:57):
so much of the rhetoric is deficit.
You know, there's this sort of deficit dialogue around what women can no longer do.
You know, we talk about baby brain and all of this late debt and all the things that women can't do.
And so the way, and I think that's really reflected in a lot of the policies
and procedures that cater for women returning to work.
(19:20):
So often, you know, the, the options that people get when they come back to
work is, well, do you want to do less?
You know, do you want to take on smaller projects? Do you want a smaller team?
Do you want less responsibility?
Do you want to work part time? So do less or do what you did before.
Those are the kind of options.
And that doesn't really reflect the huge transition that a woman's gone through.
(19:43):
You know, we can't necessarily go back to working the way that we used to work
before we had children, but also we shouldn't be required to diminish ourselves to do less.
So I think organisations really need to look more creatively and flexibly at
how we can cater to individual needs. So it's not about mums,
(20:05):
you know, because that is such a diverse group that sit under that umbrella.
It's about the individual having conversations, not about do you want to do
less or how many hours do you want to do, but how can we make this work for you?
What are your needs? You know, and people have so many different needs.
Some people are carers, some people are parents, but, you know,
whether or not that's starting at different times, working in the evenings,
(20:27):
whatever it is, but allowing there to be enough room to reflect the individual.
So I think that's one part of it, but also as a colleague or as a manager,
because Cass and I deliver manager sessions on imposter syndrome.
And one of the things that we really talk about is that one of the key drivers
of imposter syndrome is that so often we feel alone in it.
(20:50):
We doubt ourselves. We don't talk about it. It's really isolating.
And we think it means that there's something wrong with us. And a lot of that
is driven by us comparing ourselves to other people, often other women.
They seem to be getting everything done, holding the fort, getting it all together.
And so I feel like I'm drowning on the inside, but I can't talk about it.
(21:11):
And so one of the things that we really encourage colleagues and managers to
do is to lift the lid on that and to talk more openly about the reality of what
it's like, times when we doubted ourselves, the juggle that we're silently and quietly doing.
And then we show up on a Zoom call and we're all bubbles and we have all the energy in the world.
(21:32):
So yeah I think having more honest
conversations about what things
feel like the concessions that we're making the juggle that we're managing really
helps people and women to feel like I'm not alone and this is a really normal
and expected part of my experience of returning to work yeah and so if women
(21:55):
you know if we're obviously comparing ourselves which is unfortunately unfortunately,
in the day and age that we are every day doing and we're feeling that isolated, what is that first step?
Like if we're just like, right, I don't know if I'm doing it.
And I know that sometimes rather than sometimes reaching out for help,
we probably just go back down into a deeper, darker hole.
(22:16):
You're the professionals, but I know certainly from my experience,
sometimes that's what happens. I'm like, oh, can I do this? Can I not?
And I just like sometimes spiral down. and I know recently actually I spoke
to someone and she helped me pull my pull me out of it and I have to say it's
been amazing so what is it that we can then if we're and how do we also do we
(22:37):
recognize that that's that self-talk that we're actually saying to ourselves.
Yeah, and your point of asking someone how they're going, that can be a really nice thing.
Looking for those signs in people when they seem overwhelmed,
when they seem flustered,
when they might be struggling to turn up on time to things, or they're struggling
(22:59):
to get things done, checking in, like, is there something else going on?
It's a question that we can ask.
But also for ourselves, it's like giving ourselves permission to ask for help.
I think particularly mothers are so used to doing so much on their own.
Allowing yourself to ask for help is actually like a very compassionate thing
that you can do for yourself and a very effective thing that you can do.
(23:21):
So it's really that saying to myself, I don't have to do this on my own.
Because when we step outside of comparing ourselves with others in that sort
of more negative way, we compare ourselves in more of a human way.
We realize that we're all actually struggling and none of us are
alone in struggling with something so if we
are able to tap into that and recognize like there are going to be times
(23:43):
when I need help allowing ourselves to reach out
in those moments there's really one thing that we can do that's different
yeah and one of one of the superpowers of
women is you know we're expert connectors and we thrive in connections so you
know just yesterday I said to Kaz I just don't know how much sleep I need to
feel like I have energy again I'm so tired I've got a one-year-old and a four-year-old
(24:07):
and I was like, you know, do you ever feel this way or two?
And I think that's a useful question, have you ever felt this way too, such a connector?
But Cass said, you know, you know, Kailash, four.
On average, mums in the first year lose about three hours sleep a night.
And you know what? You're right. Actually, I was up all night last night.
(24:29):
But we forget and it's such a helpful reminder and connector and so validating
to just have those conversations, whether it's, you know, maybe you want to
start with friends and then, you know, find a supportive group in the workplace.
But, yeah, finding those connections is so helpful. Yeah.
Yeah, but there's also things that we can do.
(24:50):
Individually in terms of that self-taught stuff, the narrative that we're feeding
ourselves. Cassidy, did you want to chime in on that? Yeah.
So, you know, as Alicia mentioned before, often the conversation is really around
capacity and not being what we are used to being able to do.
And often you hear mum saying things like, I've got a baby brain,
I don't know if I'm going to be able to do stuff.
(25:11):
But, you know, most people would be happy to know that baby brain.
It'll actually be some research on this.
Recently as well. let's debunk that right now so
this is you know when it comes to the mums
i think a lot of it is about debunking some of these myths around their
capacity because you know women are actually inherently very
capable but yeah baby brain is not a thing they looked at like the performance
(25:35):
of pregnant women women who had a child under two and non-pregnant women who
didn't have a child and actually their capacity was comparable across the board
in fact none of the pregnant women and actually outperformed the childless mothers on some things.
So, you know. They always say working mums are very productive,
(25:56):
so that just validates it. Exactly right, yeah.
And the more kids you have, the more productive they found that you are. How am I not surprised?
So, yeah, it's actually, you know, really recognising that if functioning hasn't
been diminished by motherhood, it's actually been fortified by it.
And that's a really big shift that mothers can start to make for themselves.
And without looking at the facts, you know, we are actually not diminished. You might be tired. Yes.
(26:20):
But your actually inherent capacity has not changed. And I think that's for
a lot of moms, they're really struggling because they feel like they themselves
have changed as a person.
But their capacity to do things hasn't actually changed.
In fact, if mothers want to sit down and write a list, and we really encourage
people to actually do this, write down all the things that you have learned through motherhood.
Like, you know, the times that you've surprised yourself, how deep you've had
(26:43):
to dig, what are the wellspring of resources that you've established?
What are some of the emotional resources you've had to navigate and tap into?
Mothers have developed so many skills, whether it's, you know,
being able to be fiercely compassionate and advocate for someone or set boundaries,
multitask, reassess priorities.
There's so many things that mothers have taken on which are new for them.
(27:06):
And unfortunately often these things are undervalued or
invisible in the workplace and that's why it's really
hard for women to recognize these things but these
are actually this like huge extended capacity that women are bringing into the
workplace with them and yes if you want something done ask a working mother
to do it but yeah that's one thing but yeah we really encourage women to sit
(27:29):
down and reflect just on how much they've actually learned even if you think
about Now, Alicia was saying to me before,
remember that first week when you come home with your first born and you're just like,
what on earth did I do with this kid?
How do I leave the house?
Yeah. How did you manage to leave the house? What did you do?
Because then women start to develop a sense of self-trust that they can actually
(27:52):
handle whatever comes at them.
And I think a lot of women expect to feel confident, but you don't really feel
confident until you've done something for a while.
Though instead it's about recognizing that they can trust themselves that they
can get through it and that they'll be able to pick themselves up if things
don't go well because they're certainly as a parent if things don't go well
and you know what you pick yourself up yes and.
(28:14):
I think that's such an important message about trust and you're so true about confidence.
You know, you've got to be an expert if you've done something for 10,000 hours or something. Yeah.
But if you've, you know, as we're returning back into work, we've never done
it before of having a kid and going to work and doing all the childcare drop-off
pickups and logistics and thinking about this other human.
(28:37):
So, of course, naturally, that first day, just like as a new mum,
you're not confident. and that first nappy change, I don't know about you, I had no idea.
My son was in the NICU and so I'm trying to put my two arms through and pee
literally went everywhere.
My husband had a good old laugh and he still reminds me about it and I was like,
I had no idea. It was the first nappy I literally changed.
(29:00):
But now I'm in comfort and I can wrestle my two-and-a-half-year-old that's like
an octopus or an alligator.
But I guess it's so true that we expect and
we put this expectation on ourselves yep right day one
I'm gonna be fine but it's really more
about that self-trust isn't it yeah absolutely
and it's a process you know and we we learn
(29:24):
in steps the same way that we did with motherhood
you know each week each developmental milestone you're learning something new
about your kid and also about you and your growing capacity and I think it's
such an important lesson that we learn and take ways that you know I learn in
steps and I can handle all things and that I grow as I go and if we apply that same message
(29:44):
to any new situation or any transition, including when we go back to work,
then, you know, we can really go into it feeling more solid in ourselves and
more trusting in our capacity.
Yeah. Yeah, we're big advocates of self-trust.
Yeah. And also you can do it imperfectly as well. You know, I think there's,
for women, we really love to do everything right. Yeah.
(30:08):
We've often been conditioned to do everything perfectly, but giving ourselves
permission to do things imperfectly releases that burden as well.
Yeah, and look, no one does their job right. Like no one ever goes to,
like as much as we want to, we go to work every day trying to do our best.
There are like, no one's doing it right. Everyone's sort of figuring it out.
It's just like when someone starts a new role, we know they're not going to
(30:31):
be able to get to be skilled up.
It's going to take them probably three, six, 12 months to be right there.
So it's exactly the same mentality as well, returning back into work.
Because, you know, in the economic situation we're in at the moment,
things are changing, people have changed and new probably processes and things like that.
So no doubt probably some part of the organisation is also struggling with some change elements.
(30:54):
You can't be expected to come in and just sort of kick off
where you've last left off because naturally the organisation
has moved in a direction and you've also got to transition
and really be re-inducted almost in into
that yeah and also starting new
roles as well yeah another added challenge so not
only for double whammy you know not only are you starting a new job you're also
(31:15):
doing it with a whole new set of conditions yeah it's certainly i know there's
certainly those changes because often yeah we are going from i know personally
and i know many many women go from full-time work down to part-time work because
they do want that flexibility and the change of hours so yeah Yeah, naturally,
sometimes those roles and responsibilities do change and the like.
So yeah, it's so important.
(31:38):
Is there anything else just related to managing imposter syndrome?
So as you return back into work, is it something like people can journal just
to recognize some of the behaviors and just go, oh, yeah, cool.
I am actually doing okay. Just again, of just managing them,
that self-talk. or are there some other strategies that women can apply to support
(31:59):
that transition? I think.
Allowing ourselves to do it imperfectly, to go back, trusting that we'll learn
as we go and that we can handle new things and new experiences.
I mean, the other thing that I think women need to be really aware of is there's
actually a lot of insidious stigma and stereotypes around women who return from work.
(32:23):
And it starts really early on, like the second people find out that you're pregnant,
they already assume that you're less intelligent, less competent, less committed.
And that also then affects women once they return with a child so we know that
mothers earn less they're less likely to be promoted they're often lower starting
salaries so there's all these things unfortunately that happen in our society
which women then internalize which then again makes them feel like they're inadequate
(32:47):
or some way or their capabilities diminished,
so coming into workplaces with your eyes wide open i think can be a really shortfall
thing for mothers to be aware of that if they're feeling that way it's not their
fault that that they're feeling that way and becoming really aware of these
biases and starting to shift the narrative around mothers and recognizing them
for all that they are doing,
(33:07):
I think is a really helpful way that we can start to change the conversation here.
So that we're not getting hooked into some of those unhelpful stereotypes because
unfortunately we just end up going with them a lot of the time without even knowing.
Oh, 100%. When I was pregnant with my second child, it was actually during COVID
and we're in lockdowns here in Melbourne for years on end.
(33:27):
And so when I found out I was pregnant, I actually didn't tell anyone for quite
a while until I had to, because I'd also had some issues in the past.
I just wanted to make sure I got through 13 weeks. Yeah.
But then I didn't tell colleagues very deliberately because I was like,
I don't want you to judge because I'm pregnant and I just wanted you to know me for my role.
And it wasn't until a little bit later on it was like, look,
(33:50):
we're going to be recruiting, someone's coming in and that.
So it was actually a period of time that I actually enjoyed not being judged
or, oh, okay, next year you won't be here anyway. Yeah. And those assumptions.
The sidelining. The sidelining. so it was really interesting to
actually play like from pregnancy one
(34:10):
I had a loss in the middle so it was interesting how people also like
when I because I'd announced it quite early and so then I announced it quite
late the second time around or the third time around so it's just interesting
the perceptions but I have to say I really enjoyed people not knowing and then
it wasn't until when I went into work to do a handover while I was like 35 week
(34:31):
pregnant and they're like right.
I had the same thing I was seeing clients online and like working as a psychologist,
and all of a sudden I was like yes I'm going on maternity leave and they're like you're doing what,
absolutely no idea it was like that actually yeah I did I did wonder and as
(34:52):
soon as I told people I did actually know if people started to treat me differently
yes oh are you sure you can do that time are you gonna be okay to do that like
all of a sudden they're gonna yeah have a more spray than not be able to focus or do anything yeah yeah,
It was actually quite a lot of fun. I probably did it as a bit of a test,
but it was actually, I enjoyed still being me and I guess also as what we're
(35:14):
talking about a bit earlier, that identity shift.
So being pregnant, as what you said, it's an identity shift.
People treat you different. The perceptions are changing. Oh,
look, right, you're not going to be here in six months' time.
They kind of start to cast you out.
Delaying those conversations was actually, I really have to say,
I enjoyed it that I wasn't in stereotypes or you're pregnant.
But i'm still me as an identity yeah
(35:37):
and even that makes you realize how strong the
stereotypes and prejudices are you know the fact
that you can sense that difference that you enjoy it i mean
it's one of the sort of benefits of working online but
yeah it just shows how present
those things still really are in our
workplaces and how far we have to go yeah it's
(35:59):
it's it's definitely an interesting space than that so is there anything else
like even from a society perspective that you think that you know how can we
start to I guess and transition and I know it's not a switch that's going to
be flicked but what do you think is some of those even milestones,
that we can start to have conversations around and start
(36:20):
to change the dynamics around particularly women returning back into work but
then I guess also then on the other hand to be able to do this we need big supporters
and the number one supporter we probably need in the workplace is going to be
probably our manager and probably our husband or partner so,
we can't make the change ourselves yeah and that's the thing that we really recognise you know.
(36:45):
A lot of the work Alicia and I do is around helping women overcome the systemic
barriers that they've internalized.
That's why we focus on things like imposter syndrome or helping women with their
confidence or finding their voice because it's the system around them that's
made it really hard for women to feel like they can show up as women and as they are, really.
And so, yeah, to your point, Korea, I think it's having the conversations,
(37:07):
workplaces being very conscious and flexibility without it being like,
you know, oh, let's be flexible for you because you're not capable of doing this.
And men becoming very aware of the role that they play or partners becoming
aware of the role that they play as well.
So that they're, and really, yeah, crucifying is a bit of a shift when it comes
to how we're treating working fathers as well.
So that they're able and that the stigma around them taking time out of the
(37:31):
workplace is not being penalized in the same way.
And we are seeing this from shifts, you know, a lot of workplaces are doing
parental leave instead of maternity leave.
But even the terminologies are starting to change a bit.
I think there's a way to go. yeah it's yeah we've in my corporate gig we've
only just had our second father go on maternity parental leave this year and
(37:51):
there was only one person that did it last year two people this year,
but people like i didn't even know that they could do that and i'm like this
was this policy was launched years ago so it's interesting as well that yeah
still having that uptake and father's worried about having the career hit and
things so it's interesting yeah and then i think My brother-in-law is entitled
to it and he's like, no, it's too hard work to go on parental leave.
(38:14):
I'm saying it works. Isn't that the truth?
I'm like, you need to do it. You should operate. You should do it.
Not only is it available to them, it's men taking it up. The willingness, yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah. Yeah, and I think also, you know, because of that whole deficit dialogue
(38:36):
around women and baby brain and,
you know, all of that stuff, we can also
influence the system by influencing how we speak to ourselves
how we speak about ourselves and the questions
that we ask each other and what we celebrate in each other i
think too often the questions about motherhood how
are you going you know how do you do it how do you balance your professional
(39:00):
and your personal life and they're not actually asking for the how you do it
like teach us your magic they're asking for tell us about how hard it is and
how diminished you are as a result.
They want to disappear the party. That's right.
And, you know, I think there's a way that we can go, even in the conversations
that we have and the conversations we're having at work and the way we speak about ourselves,
(39:21):
when we go back to work or we're interviewing, is how do we talk about ourselves
and our journey into and through motherhood?
You know, what capacities have we developed? What new skills? What resiliencies?
And giving people space to talk about those things starts starts to shift the
conversation, the dialogue, which I think is so important because really it is something that we,
(39:45):
We need to celebrate rather than just accommodate. And not being apologetic about it as well.
I think that's a good thing. Yeah. I think it's, as you're saying,
it's really turned the negative really from a negative into a positive.
So it's really gone, poor you, but actually how empowered you feel,
how that talk and like, no, actually you can do it.
Like I even had people say to me, oh, poor you, you've got to go to four days a week.
(40:08):
And I was like, no, this is my choice. Like I'm the one that's making this decision.
I want to go back work. I want to work four days a week.
Other people around me haven't made, like, this is my decision as me myself.
And I often say to people, I'm a much better mum by working.
I would be a cray-cray stay-at-home mum.
Yeah. I just couldn't do it. I'm feeling that way right now. Yeah.
(40:31):
But, you know, we often talk about if you were to design a boot camp for one
year plus or nine months of pregnancy or whatever,
you know, like a period of time where you could send someone to learn about
resilience and patience and compassion and advocacy and personal strength and personal trust,
(40:51):
you would struggle to come up with a better bootcamp than the journey of motherhood.
And it's funny because, you know, when people return to work,
say we sent them off to some conference in Berlin and they've learned something,
they'd listen to someone talk for two hours, they come back and went,
oh, tell us about what did you learn you know what are we going to learn from
this what are we going to acquire from that but none of those questions surround
(41:13):
women when they return you know from this incredible,
experience a boot camp you know they've come back with all these skills a lot
of them are transferable but we don't as organizations and managers we don't
draw out the full value of that I think and there's a lot of room to shift that
or break yeah yeah celebrate and recognize,
(41:33):
The skills that we're picking up in motherhood, like we often,
as you said, it's that the deficit dialogue, but it really should be...
The amazing skills dialogue there's a big one yeah yes
I think you're right there you know just oh
and recognizing you've birthed this child you've kept
them alive but also you've learned a lot as what
(41:55):
we've said a number of times recognizing that it's
a skill as you said yeah yeah so
we've got a way to go but you know having conversations like
this and you know the work that you're doing I think helps to
to push things along so yeah yeah
more than we can all band together to create the
change and at least also start the conversation I was once at a conference a
(42:18):
couple of months ago and I was talking to a very male audience so I shifted
my conversation to be more male orientated I wasn't just going to bang the female
drum but I put it back on the audience and I actually said to the males I said
what are you doing to to support your partners?
What are you doing to support the females in your team?
And the next day, and even people came up to me and also particularly one father
(42:40):
came up to me the next day and he said, I went home and had a conversation with
my wife and said, I actually do want to share the load a lot more.
I do want to be seen as a role model with my kids and pick them up from childcare and the like.
And I was like, if I've impacted one other person, particularly a father by
having a rhythm, then I'm happy because he's gone home and I've done my job.
(43:01):
He's gone home moment had that conversation because he may not have
had that conversation beforehand but it's certainly
you know changing that narrative around it so
you know it's really important just before we wrap up
is there anything else you want to just add on this i think we could talk about this
all day by the way so yeah i think
having most of it oh one thing
(43:23):
that we haven't touched on the cost of imposter syndrome
for women i think this is useful for the women to
know so they can recognize the signs in themselves but you know
based on the research that cast an idea on self-doubt and
imposter syndrome tends to show up in
one of two ways so you often see when
people are doubting themselves or feeling like an imposter they either go to
(43:44):
underdoing or into overdoing so underdoing is when you're doubting yourself
really holding back you're sort of diminishing yourself you might be avoiding
new opportunities not going for that job not stretching yourself not not stepping
into things that really reflect your full potential.
And when we do that, you know, it means that we're often taking roles or taking
(44:09):
pay cuts and also in that process really losing part of ourselves and part of our identity.
So it really comes at a personal cost. We really feel like we've shrunk as a
result of becoming mums.
The other side of it is that some of us flip into overdoing and we feel like
an imposter so that's when we doubt ourselves we really feel like we want to
(44:29):
prove ourselves to it working hard working long hours trying to perfect everything
and really burning ourselves out in that process,
And that also comes at a huge personal and professional cost.
So I guess it's useful for us,
for each of us to check in on is to sort of just survey how we're going as we're
(44:52):
re-entering the workforce and look at, you know, do I feel like I'm holding
back? Am I hiding? Am I diminishing myself?
Or am I pushing myself so far that I'm really burning myself out?
And both of those are signs that we might be struggling with imposter syndrome
and that we might want to make a shift in how we're managing that. So, yeah.
(45:15):
Yeah. So just on that, so if people are recognising it, what would then be the
next step they need to take?
The next step that they would need to take is really to recognise a bit in that
cycle. Yeah. And, yeah, reach out.
Reach out with all of my help to help them. Yeah. Yeah. Certainly recognising
when they're in that pattern of feeling like an imposter.
Is the first step and then after that it's having conversations
(45:38):
with your manager if you're really finding yourself in those
dynamics it can also be talking to other people about
as well just so that they are able to start to see the patterns and start to
shift out from a bit yeah no it sounds good i think it comes back again to that
self-trust piece you know is because often Often when we're underdoing or overdoing,
(46:03):
it's really fear-based.
We're really responding out of, oh, this feels too much. I'm going to shrink
myself or I'm afraid that I'm not enough. So I'm going to really dive into too much.
But when we come back to and reflect on, you know, what really matters to me,
what feels like enough to me, what feels like too much and what really reflects
(46:24):
my values and the a way that I want to work and contribute,
then we're operating from a place of greater.
Self-trust rather than being driven by all of this sort of external fear.
So yeah, I think sitting down and either having conversations,
you know, in a coaching situation or journaling, reflecting on that stuff helps
(46:45):
us to make decisions and show up at work in a way that really reflects more of who we are.
Fantastic. Now, Cass and Alicia, what do you both do for self-care and fill your cup?
Kessa, do you want to jump in? I love a swim. I feel like the ocean is very, very healing for me.
I lost a big sucker for reality TV.
(47:09):
I behave as a psychologist, but there's nothing better than sometimes being
a bit down and not talking to anyone else than just to watch your favourite reality TV.
This is something I really had to work at
when I first had my first child child
because I was so resentful that I had no time
(47:30):
to myself and from the moment I woke up it was everybody else's
need and I am by no means a morning person but I this is also during COVID so
I but I would force myself up out of bed before the family started to stir and
we had a rooftop at the time so I go up and I just divide my 10 minutes or 20
(47:51):
minutes whatever I had into three and I'd do,
even if I had 15 minutes, I'd do five-minute yoga stretch, five-minute meditation, five-minute journal,
and I would always just expand or contract depending on how much time I had.
And it made the biggest difference to how I'd, you know, show up and feel.
I don't do it all the time, but when I do, and I certainly know when I need to, the cracks show.
(48:16):
Yeah. No, it's so important. Well, thank you so much, Cass and Alicia,
for today's conversation. I know we could go on for a very long time talking about this.
I think it's a topic all three of us are very passionate about,
about supporting women in that return to work.
So how can people find out more about the work that you're doing and also connect with you?
(48:37):
Yeah, so you can visit our website, which is www.tendher.co or you can follow
us on Instagram and our Instagram handle is tend underscore women.
Yeah, and we also, yeah, we run monthly gatherings on topics that we invite
women along to and also, you know, deliver sessions at organisations.
(48:58):
So, yeah, that's where you can find us and connect with us and we'd love to connect with you.
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for you both for this such a,
An uplifting conversation.
Let's hope the conversation certainly changes, but also that the talk that you're
giving yourself, remember that to be of an empowerment one, not in that deficit dialogue.
(49:21):
And if you, Mama, you are returning back into work, certainly reach out.
No matter which community you join, even if you just speak to one other person
about your return to work and that transition, I think it's beneficial no matter who you speak with.
So thank you so much Cass and Alicia thank you
thank you for
(49:42):
listening to the working mama podcast subscribe to the
podcast on itunes spotify or your favorite podcast catcher please also feel
free to contact me on any of the working mama social channels remember mama
is m-u-m-m-a or website www.workingmama.com.au I would appreciate you to share
(50:02):
this podcast with friends and colleagues,
especially those that are parents managing the juggle.
And I would really appreciate if you had to take the time out to leave a review of the podcast.
Thank you and see you next time. Have a great week.
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