July 15, 2025 • 28 mins
This week on Worth The Wait, Sarah and I kick off another round of Fuck That Guy Palooza—and this one’s a doozy. We start with a listener letter about a woman who put together a thoughtful care package for a guy she’d been seeing for two months… only to get a text back that basically said, “Cool stuff, but calm down, Fatal Attraction.” We break down whether that kind of response is emotionally unavailable, avoidant, or just plain rude—and why so many women internalize shame when men show zero empathy.
Then we dive into a second letter from someone dating a guy who’s “nice” but totally shut off emotionally. We talk about how to tell the difference between avoidant behavior and a man who’s simply not invested—and why consistency is the key.
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BOOK RECOMMENDATIONS
In this week’s episode, Sarah provides two book recommendations.
Pixel Flesh
Pixel Flesh is a bold, brilliant exposé on toxic beauty culture and the pressure to perform femininity online.
✨ If you’ve ever looked in the mirror and wondered who you're really trying to impress, this book is for you.
🔗Buy it here https://amzn.to/4eDjFRh (As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.)
Writers & Lovers
If you’ve ever felt stuck between who you were supposed to become and who you actually are, Writers & Lovers will hit you right in the gut.
📚Buy it here https://amzn.to/3G1BlcE(As an Amazon Associate, I earn from qualifying purchases.)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Worth the Wait podcast. Hi, Sarah.
Hey, so Sarah, we've got some Fuck that Guy Palooza stories to
talk about or do, right? And the first one we're going to
talk about is going to kind of dovetail into the second one
we're going to talk about. The second one's not so bad, but
the first one is going to reallyteach women or people, people
who date men, that just because a guy is an asshole doesn't mean
(00:35):
he's an avoidance. Right?
Because remember how a few yearsago everybody was a narcissist?
You know what I do? Right.
Everybody was a narcissist. Anybody that broke up with you
ever, anybody that that I don't know stopped texting you or just
lost interest was a narcissist. It was a love bombing
narcissist. Well, now everybody's an
avoidance and we're going to getinto the difference between an
(00:56):
avoidance, somebody who's just not interested in you, as well
as how avoidant attachment is becoming more common due to
dating apps. We're going to get to that, but
I want start off with the letterthat we received, Yeah, that you
heard you're going to read for us.
All right, here we go. I honestly thought I was being
thoughtful. I'd been dating this guy for
(01:16):
about two months and things weregoing well.
He was attentive, funny, remembered small details and he
had that actually listen when you speak thing going for him.
So I thought that we were building something.
Last week he mentioned he was feeling down about work, so I
put together a little cheer up care package for him.
His favorite snacks, small bottle of whiskey that he once
(01:39):
said helped him unwind, and a handwritten note telling him how
proud I was of him for pushing through a rough patch.
I dropped it off at his place while he was out, left it with
his doorman, and texted him a heads up.
An hour later I got a text that said hey, thanks for the stuff,
but the note was kind of intense.
We're not really at the proud ofyou stage yet.
(02:00):
Can you dial it back a bit? Excuse me?
I stared at my phone for a solidminute, wondering if I had
accidentally texted him something unhinged like a poem
or a playlist called Our Future Wedding.
But no, just proud of you for pushing through.
You got this. And that was too much.
I didn't even respond. I just felt dumb, embarrassed,
(02:21):
like I got caught being sincere.So now I'm asking, did I cross a
line? Is telling someone that you're
proud of them too much two months in?
Or is he just emotionally constipated?
OK, what? Here's what, what angers me
about this is this is such a lack of empathy.
It's listen, he's allowed to feel however he wants to feel in
(02:42):
response to this. But he needs to understand that
response is about him, not her number one.
And #2 let's say you do want to address it.
And he has every right to want to address it.
Why not frame it in a way like, oh, you know, I, I love this.
But, you know, can we talk aboutsort of where we're at, right?
(03:05):
Because obviously what's triggering him is she's talking
to him like they're in a committed relationship, don't
you think? My knee jerk reaction here is
actually to agree with him that it is a bit much.
What is wrong with you? Are you dead inside?
Maybe, maybe. But here's the thing, it's a bit
much. I also though think that he
(03:27):
didn't handle it well. He, I think, probably should
have attempted to talk about it in person.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Listen, he's allowed to have his
feelings about it, right? But could you, could you address
it in a way where she doesn't feel embarrassed?
Right. I mean, maybe not because it's
kind of like what you're saying like, Oh well, he can feel how
(03:47):
he feels about it. That kind of goes both ways,
like they're may not be a way toaddress it without her feeling
embarrassed, but I do think thatthat the text is a little off
putting especially. Thanks for the stuff.
Stuff. That stuff from a pile of stuff.
That's all I can think of when Ihear the word stuff now.
That whiskey probably cost her agood amount of money.
(04:09):
I'm sure, right? Hopefully.
Part of it, right? I feel like what he's actually
telling her here is I wouldn't have done this for you.
Unfortunately, and that's, that's the part she needs to
keep in mind. This feels too much to him
because he absolutely would not have done this for her.
The things that she gives him credit for, like being
attentive, remembering small details, He should be doing that
(04:31):
anyway. Right, because.
It's not that fucking hard, right, to be a person in a
conversation, especially if you're interested in them,
right? And it's two months, like you
should be hanging on their everyword.
And and that's, I mean, that's just it like this.
This care package is a demonstration of her doing that,
right? Because she remembered the
brand. She remembered his favorite
(04:52):
snacks. He may be filing those details
away too, right? But he's not acting on them.
Maybe furthermore. I I think.
What he is bristling at is proudof you because that is a little
infantilizing, is it? And why would you say that?
Think that is true regardless ofwhether a woman says it to a man
(05:13):
or a man says it to a woman. You just said this to me a few
weeks ago, you know. Right, but how long have I known
you? How is it not infantilizing?
Why is the time that we've knowneach other?
How is it dependent? I just, I just think saying it
to someone you barely know is infantilizing because there's no
baseline of expectation for whatyou know about how they'll
(05:36):
persevere, how they push throughstruggle, right.
Whereas after you've known someone for a long time, if you
see them being strong like you, you know that like you know.
Oh well, yeah, former. You would have just folded like
origami here, but you didn't. Proud of you.
So do you think it was the basket like the items, was it
the note or was it both? I think it's both.
(05:59):
I just think what she did, it's been two months.
He's paying attention, he's attentive, whatever.
After two months and again, we don't know how many times I've
gone out. Was this like four or five
times? That's important information.
I just feel like if you, if you like that person, you can kind
of file this away and be like, oh, this made me a little
uncomfortable. I don't know that I would bring
(06:21):
it up. I would wait to.
See, I would too, because obviously to her this was no big
deal, right? Right.
She didn't intend it as like a let's lock it down.
Right, right. Kind of gift.
Well, what it says is they're not on the same page, right?
And that's, that is what she should be taking from this.
Of course, as women, we're goingto internalize it.
(06:43):
But what she should be acknowledging is he's telling
her without telling her. Listen, I don't, I don't think
we're on the same page here. And when she got that response,
that is her cue to say this response says to me that maybe
we're not looking at things the same way, or maybe we have a
difference in how we expressed consideration and effect.
(07:05):
But either way, I think it's something we should talk about.
And either he's going to be willing to do that or he's going
to deflect, right? Always use your words when you
can, except don't bother trying to educate.
But you should always use your words to draw a line with
somebody and let them know in a very polite way you're a Dick.
I did something nice for you. And this is the response that I
(07:29):
get. It's the most insensitive,
inconsiderate. It's just such a Dick move.
And what I want to ask is, is this really the first sign that
he's a prick? I think it might be, yeah.
It's essential information that he's telling her.
He wouldn't have done this for her.
For him, this little blip that he's going through might be
(07:50):
nothing like, OK, so I'm having a rough patch at work.
Like you don't need to throw me a parade.
Whereas for her, you know when she's going through a rough
patch, she appreciates things like this.
Is this one of those stupid lovelanguage things like I'm a acts
of? Honestly, I think it might be
yeah. Gift giving seems to be a much
bigger deal to him. Yeah, it does seem like that,
(08:12):
right? And some people are just like
that. They just like to do it.
So does this letter writer, right?
She just needs to, I think, be alittle more discerning about who
she rewards with that behavior. I would agree with that.
I again, it's about valuing yourtime.
Does this person really does your time?
They should be doing the extraordinary for you to reward
(08:35):
them, not they. Listen to me.
Yeah, right. They should be really showing
you that they think you're special.
They should be showing you how they're investing in you.
Right. And this guy kind of was, but I
think again, he was really just doing the bare minimum, right
and the. Confuse.
Right, right, right. And like the bristling at the
(08:57):
gift, I think is, is him feelinguncomfortable, like, oh, maybe
this person is demonstrating an expectation that I will
reciprocate in some future scenario, right.
He probably feels pressure as a result of receiving a gift.
Because some people do, right men?
Men. But again, that is a him
(09:17):
problem, not a her problem, so don't put it on her.
And I realize I'm I'm asking fora lot here for men to be more
self aware and how they respond and how they react.
This does dovetail nicely into the topic of avoidance.
Could this been have been something that triggered his
avoidance? Possibly, but still.
(09:40):
That's a him problem. That's a him problem.
Listen, as an avoid, as somebodywho it has avoidant tendencies,
I have to be, have to be very aware of how I react to somebody
being thoughtful. Even even if it does make me
uncomfortable. I'm, I'm not going to, I'm not
going to let them know that that's a me problem.
(10:03):
It is. Right.
I mean, it's just such, this is just such another example of how
men struggle with empathy. Right.
No, it is, it is. We're totally on the same page
about that. So I guess just to, you know,
clarify like when I I said I thought this might be a bit
much. It really is just that it's a
lot of effort to put in for a man after two months.
(10:25):
Let's go. Let's cut it down to brass
tacks. This is about making effort for
a man. That's what bothers you, right?
That's so cringy. It's not that.
It's more why would you do that for a man, Right, right, right.
If he, if he hasn't already donethat for you.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Agreed, I agree so fuck this guyI.
Don't know actually about fuck that guy.
(10:46):
I feel like if she's very embarrassed and feeling shame
about this, yeah, write him off because obviously you're, you
know, you're not on the same page.
Doesn't have to be this much work.
This is a him problem, etcetera.But if these two can use their
words, I think it might work out.
And it might be a valuable like lesson for both of them,
actually, just about expressing appreciation through gift giving
(11:08):
and whether or not they're comfortable with it.
Yeah, I disagree with you vehemently on this one.
It's just so insensitive. This is how he is.
He's not changing. Fuck that guy.
I said what I said. I stand by it.
That's valid too. That is valid, too.
All right, we're going to move on to another letter.
And she says. I've been dating this guy for a
little over three months. We see each other maybe once a
(11:30):
week. He's always nice, never rude or
dismissive. But there's this emotional wall
I can't quite get past. When we're together, he's
affectionate. He'll hold my hand, kiss me
hello. But the deeper stuff, not there.
No real vulnerability, no checking in, no sense that he
wants to know me beyond the basics.
He's never talked about what he wants long term.
I've brought it up gently and hekind of shrugs and says I'm just
(11:52):
seeing where things go. He's 38.
It's confusing, but there are because there are no huge red
flags. He doesn't disappear, doesn't
pick fights, doesn't love bomb. He just doesn't really show up
emotionally. The connection feels safe but
distant, like I'm dating someonethrough glass.
And I love that image. By the way, I don't want to
label someone unfairly, but I keep reading about avoid an
(12:13):
attachment styles and so much ofit sounds like him.
But then I wonder is that just away of excusing someone who's
not that invested? I guess my question is how do
you tell the difference? Great.
Question. It is a great question because
avoidance is becoming more and more and more common thanks to
dating apps. Everybody seems to think that
(12:34):
you develop your attachment style during your developmental
years. Now.
I studied attachment theory whenI had to get my trauma recovery
certification. And the thing about attachment
style is that they're not fixed,meaning they don't stay the same
necessarily. You don't stay this one way your
whole life. You can learn to go from anxious
(12:54):
to secure or avoidant to secure.You can also be somebody with
this kind of attachment style and still have a healthy
relationship even if you never develop a totally secure
attachment style. That's this is the thing.
These attachment styles can be very fluid.
Can they also vary depending on who you're seeing?
Like maybe certain people can bring out the avoidant in you.
(13:16):
Well, yes and no. Here's the thing, the brain
doesn't know the difference between certain things, between
happiness and excitement. You know when we talk about
PTSD, DHD and depression? This.
For me, I have all three. Now the difference, obviously
PTSD is trauma driven, ADHD is neurodevelopmental, and the
(13:37):
depression can be kind of a combination of the two.
But I know the difference of each one.
I know when I'm dealing with my depression versus my ADHD versus
my PTSD based on certain behavior.
When it's PTSDI feel anxious. When it's my ADHD, I feel kind
of a brain fog. When it's my depression, I feel
a heaviness. It's about the narrative our
(13:59):
brain attaches to each experience.
So if some people bring out the avoid avoidant in you, is it
that they bring out the is it that they're bringing out the
avoidant or is it are they bringout your anxiety right?
Well. Yeah, right.
So I don't really, I can't, I can't answer that question 100%.
That is actually something I'm going to write that down and I
want to research that a little bit.
(14:19):
But the big distinction between avoidance and emotional
unavailability or lack of interest is consistency.
What I'm reading in this letter is that this guy has
consistently been unavailable emotionally.
Now whether or not he's just emotionally unavailable person,
whether or not he's emotionally unavailable to her doesn't
matter because either way it's bad for her.
(14:40):
Avoidance still crave intimacy and we're still very capable of
it. We just get triggered by it.
And the trick is learning how dowe navigate it when we are
triggered? Because as adults, like we were
talking about the guy before with the with the gift, that's a
ham problem. If he was triggered by what she
did, that's a ham problem. And that's something that he
needs to do some introspection on.
(15:02):
An avoidant is very capable of having an emotionally
satisfying, healthy romantic relationship as long as that
they're aware of what's going on.
So many people don't know that they're avoidance but and avoid
it will they'll be there and they'll be doing the work and
they'll be present and they'll be showing you the affection and
the attention. And then something's going to
(15:23):
happen and they get overwhelmed and they get over stimulated and
they pull back, but then they regroup and then they come back.
Now the problem obviously is that that kind of inconsistency
is very problematic for whoever they're dealing with.
The inconsistency is another word for unpredictability.
And that unpredictability is what causes anxiety and
(15:43):
potentially A trauma bond because hot and cold and back
and forth and we don't know. And we become dependent on the
rush when we get that attention and then we crave it when we
don't get it. So an avoidance will be there,
will show you that they're interested, but something will
cause them to withdraw. Whereas somebody who's
unavailable, they're consistently unavailable.
(16:05):
Am I making the distinction clear?
I mean, I would say so, yeah. I think after three months, I
think that's a fair amount of time to say I've observed a
pattern. Right.
And that's the thing we just talked about using your words.
Always use your words to call out behavior that is that is
(16:27):
unhealthy for you. If it's causing you any kind of
strain or grief or whatever, assess the situation.
If you say this, how is this going to go?
But if this is someone who seemsgenuine and they're a good
person and their affectionate and their kind, but they just
have this thing, call it out. Now you're not required to stick
stick this out or hang out and try and fix them.
(16:49):
That's not your job. That is their job.
But when you call it out, it could be the opening for a
really healthy conversation about, oh, OK, so let's let's
talk more about this. And again, don't offer him free
therapy, but kind of laid down aboundary and say, OK, I
understand this, but if this is consistent, that's not for me.
(17:09):
And you don't have to say it like I'm not going to stick
around. If you think the person is worth
it, great. But make it clear.
Decide for yourself. OK, I understand.
But I've got a boundary here. And if this happens again, I'm
done. And then say to this person, I
get it. And then thank you for letting
me in on this and I appreciate the vulnerability, but I need to
(17:29):
explain that if this happens again, I'm not going to be able
to continue in this relationship.
Use your words, put it out there, and then see what happens
if you want right. Yeah, if it seems worth the
effort. If it seems worth the effort and
I know questionable right, because it is a man, so is it
going to be worth it? Only you can decide that.
(17:50):
That's that's my feeling. You know what I would be very
careful not to do though? If she does choose to have this
conversation, I would personallycaution her against using the
word avoidant or or identifying the behavior in any way other
than I noticed when I bring thisup you withdraw or you seem
really hesitant to talk about XYor Z.
(18:10):
Right? Only because I don't want him to
weaponize this against any future women.
If you give him the vocabulary to say I'm going to avoid it,
he's going to tell some later woman this and then she's going
to waste a bunch of her time. Right.
Oh, that's a good point. That is a really good point.
(18:30):
I also want to address how a lotof people think that our
attachment style is developed during childhood.
That's not the case depending onyour experiences.
And This is why I say I do thinkthat dating apps are, they're
creating a particular breed of avoidance because of the extreme
(18:51):
and persistent confusion, ghosting, disappointments that
dating apps present because of the sheer volume of experiences
that dating apps provide. Right, right.
And I've, I've said this forever.
I do think that a lot of emotionally unavailable people
use dating apps for just to get free therapy and emotional
(19:12):
labor. Or validation or.
Validation and and this is men and women both.
They both do it. But the use of dating apps after
a time, when you experience this, it's going to affect how
you attach and interact and bondwith other people, right, right.
So look for consistency. Are they consistently
inconsistent with their emotional investments, with
(19:34):
their time? Or do they seem invested and
everything seems going great andthen something happens that
makes them withdraw? That's not really the vibe I got
from the letter. No, he just seems like a prick.
He just, he's not interested. He's not emotionally.
Built Well Kristen, you say he'snot interested.
I think he is interested in longterm casual sex.
(19:54):
Fair. I think he's, yeah, he's
interested in having a reliable connection to fill his weekend.
But I think the pattern that's observed here about him not
wanting anything deeper is specifically what she needs to
question. Identify it, question it, get
your answer, act on the answer. Yes, agreed.
(20:16):
If you want to, if you've, I mean, if you've already decided
after hearing all this that you have your answer, that's also
fine too. Agreed.
OK, are we moving on? I think so.
OK, Sarah, we're now going to beschools on how to date
intentionally. OK.
By a man, A man who looks like the poor man.
Scott Foley from Scandal. If you know, you know, if you
(20:36):
watch the show, then you know who I'm talking about.
His name is Kevin Slash. Men's relationships.
So maybe he's advising men, but let's see what he has to say.
Most people do not know how to date intentionally and because
of it, they end up in situationships or relationships
that they don't even in the 1st place and it keeps them from
having the dream relationship that they actually want.
(20:58):
So coming from someone who actually has dated
intentionally, I want to give some tips and some feedback to
people so that you can do it too.
And these are my credentials. For anyone wondering.
I met my girlfriend Alina 2 1/2 years ago.
We quickly fell in love, both ofus were dating intentionally by
the way, and we traveled the world, had an amazing time
together and we now live together.
I want to stop right there and just say what he's really doing
(21:20):
is showing off his very, very attractive girlfriend, Right?
That's what he's doing here. His credentials are I met a
girl. A girl hasn't dumped me yet.
That's my credential. But OK, keep going.
The very first thing you need todo before even talking to anyone
is you need to take out a pen and paper.
You need to write down your dream partner list.
(21:41):
Yes, your dream partner list. Because how are you going to
know who you're looking for if you can't even be clear about
it? You need to be able to write it
down and. See, OK, I didn't expect this.
This was not going to be on my bingo cards.
Sarah, I agree with him because remember this workbook I said I
was working on? Well, I finished the first draft
and I actually went through it with a client the other day, and
(22:02):
I absolutely agree with this. What qualities do you want
somebody I'm talking about? What does that relationship look
like? What kind of communication style
and frequency do you want? How long will you date before
exclusivity? How are you going to approach
intentions? That's what all these worksheets
are. And so if you subscribe to our
Patreon at patreon.com/worth theWait Show, I'm going to be
(22:25):
giving some of these worksheets to our subscribers so that they
can have them, they can print them out, they can use them,
they can do whatever they want. And I want people to be able to
picture exactly what they're looking for because not only
does it help you identify it when you see it, but it helps
you communicate your intentions and your goals.
But let's keep going. Does this feel right to me?
(22:46):
Is this the right person that I want?
OK, I think it is. This feels right.
OK, I want to go in that direction.
So what you're going to do is you're going to write down
values, qualities, behaviors. And feelings.
OK, that's exactly that's exactly what I have in my
worksheets. And I'm telling you, be very
specific. I thought I was being very
specific when I wrote 40 things on my list.
(23:06):
Alina ended up writing 5 pages, 3 When you were on these dates,
you need to be very clear and conscious about what you're
looking for, things that you value, trying to cut out certain
types of people that on the first day you'll just know, OK,
you're not for me next. Because the whole point in this
phase is that you were trying toqualify the person you're
actually looking for instead of just getting caught up in the
(23:28):
idea of how amazing they might seem.
All right, there's so much more of this.
Let me know in the comments if you want to.
Part 2. And to nobody's surprise, even
though this guy is supposed to be for men, Who's in the
comments? All women.
Yeah, all women. I don't disagree with what he's
saying. If you are looking for a
relationship, intentionality is key.
(23:48):
Intentionality and clarity is key.
And that means knowing what yourideal partner is like, knowing
what your ideal relationship is like, knowing what you can
invest, knowing what your deal Breakers are.
One of the worksheets that I have is core values.
And it's things like patience, tolerance, humility, and for
(24:08):
lifestyle choice choices, core values, personality rates, you
rate on a scale from 1:00 to 10:00.
What are the must haves? What are one maybe you're
flexible on and what are absolutely not?
Or you know, no, I don't. I don't want somebody like baby
wants kids or has kids and maybeyou don't.
That's a one. You rate it on a scale of 1 to
10. But to be able to look at this
and know exactly what you're looking for, it's going to cut
(24:30):
down and save you so much time. Not just like actual time
investment, but also emotional investment.
Yeah, I imagine it would be really helpful to sort out, oh,
is this person really just doingthe minimum of what they should
be doing anyway or should I be giving the next credit?
Right. And I just made a video about
this on TikTok. I love table topics.
(24:51):
It's it's a sort of a conversation card game and it's
not your typical icebreaker game.
These are questions that are designed to help you get to know
someone beyond a surface level and they have a first date
edition. And there are questions that
help you get to who somebody really is and helps you get a
sense of their core values and whether or not you have things
(25:13):
in common. And I want to be upfront.
I'm going to link to it in the show notes.
I receive a Commission from purchases of table topics.
It's sort of a game, but I have talked about this for years.
We used to use it with the speeddating events.
I used to develop events online around this, especially during
COVID. So I really like this game.
(25:35):
I think it's going to be very, very helpful on a first date.
It helps you avoid the awkwardness, but it really helps
you cut through all the surface level BS conversation and it
might help you avoid the trap ofhe's just going to sit there and
talk about himself. No, here, here's a couple of
cards. You take one, I'll take one,
right? And you might think, Oh my God,
(25:56):
that sounds so weird. Does it?
I. Don't think so, right?
I would think it was fun. Right, The goal is to get your
date to ask you questions. Here, his game.
This just helps you. It helps you save time.
Yeah, I feel. Like if you gamify it too, men
will be more likely to participate.
Right. Yeah, exactly.
So I don't disagree with this guy to be as clear as possible
(26:19):
because when you're trying to communicate what your intentions
are and what your goals are, if you don't know, you can't
communicate it. And when you put it down and you
look at it and you see it and you go, these are my deal
Breakers. These are my boundaries.
Really the ultimate goal is, is to be able to say, what are my
boundaries going to be here? What will I tolerate?
(26:41):
What will I not tolerate? And how do I communicate them?
And one of the worksheets is even a decision tree where I
come up with a few typical conversations, especially
regarding what someone's lookingfor.
And it's this is how you say it.This is how, if this is how they
respond, this is how you respondwhen you you can plan this
conversation in your head, it will take away a lot of the
(27:02):
anxiety and you'll know you won't be taken by surprise and
you won't be reacting from sort of an emotional place.
So I am a big, big believer in what this guy saying.
I think it's I think it's very helpful.
What do you think, Sarah? I agree.
Sarah, do you have any final thoughts?
Well. I I don't know how to feel about
fuck that guy Summerfest continuing like on the one hand,
(27:24):
great. I love the stories, keep them
coming, follow up. But on the other hand, it's
like, when are men going to improve, you know?
Yeah, yeah, I know. It's bitter sweet, Kristen.
It is. It is.
I still think that there that there are men out there trying
to improve. I do.
I think so too. But they have to do it on their
own. We're not doing it for them, no.
(27:45):
We can't fix him, or maybe we could, but who cares, right?
We're not going to even try to fix him, right, which is
Warlock's days. Follow us on social media at
Worth the Wait show on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube.
Send your questions to hello@dataologycoach.com.
Just go to the website and you can submit a question through
the site or send it directly to me at hello@datalgcoach.com.
(28:08):
Follow us on Patreon. Make sure to subscribe.
We get a lot of letters from listeners and we answer the
letters. Some are public, some are
private, but you'll get the advice post.
You'll also get the bi weekly bonus episodes as well as other
behind the scenes content. That's patreon.com/worth the
wait show my Bog, which is I want you to value your time
(28:29):
decenter men and center yourself.
Goodbye, bye.
Worth the Wait podcast. Hi, Sarah.
Hey, so Sarah, we've got some Fuck that Guy Palooza stories to
talk about or do, right? And the first one we're going to
talk about is going to kind of dovetail into the second one
we're going to talk about. The second one's not so bad, but
the first one is going to reallyteach women or people, people
who date men, that just because a guy is an asshole doesn't mean
(00:35):
he's an avoidance. Right?
Because remember how a few yearsago everybody was a narcissist?
You know what I do? Right.
Everybody was a narcissist. Anybody that broke up with you
ever, anybody that that I don't know stopped texting you or just
lost interest was a narcissist. It was a love bombing
narcissist. Well, now everybody's an
avoidance and we're going to getinto the difference between an
(00:56):
avoidance, somebody who's just not interested in you, as well
as how avoidant attachment is becoming more common due to
dating apps. We're going to get to that, but
I want start off with the letterthat we received, Yeah, that you
heard you're going to read for us.
All right, here we go. I honestly thought I was being
thoughtful. I'd been dating this guy for
(01:16):
about two months and things weregoing well.
He was attentive, funny, remembered small details and he
had that actually listen when you speak thing going for him.
So I thought that we were building something.
Last week he mentioned he was feeling down about work, so I
put together a little cheer up care package for him.
His favorite snacks, small bottle of whiskey that he once
(01:39):
said helped him unwind, and a handwritten note telling him how
proud I was of him for pushing through a rough patch.
I dropped it off at his place while he was out, left it with
his doorman, and texted him a heads up.
An hour later I got a text that said hey, thanks for the stuff,
but the note was kind of intense.
We're not really at the proud ofyou stage yet.
(02:00):
Can you dial it back a bit? Excuse me?
I stared at my phone for a solidminute, wondering if I had
accidentally texted him something unhinged like a poem
or a playlist called Our Future Wedding.
But no, just proud of you for pushing through.
You got this. And that was too much.
I didn't even respond. I just felt dumb, embarrassed,
(02:21):
like I got caught being sincere.So now I'm asking, did I cross a
line? Is telling someone that you're
proud of them too much two months in?
Or is he just emotionally constipated?
OK, what? Here's what, what angers me
about this is this is such a lack of empathy.
It's listen, he's allowed to feel however he wants to feel in
(02:42):
response to this. But he needs to understand that
response is about him, not her number one.
And #2 let's say you do want to address it.
And he has every right to want to address it.
Why not frame it in a way like, oh, you know, I, I love this.
But, you know, can we talk aboutsort of where we're at, right?
(03:05):
Because obviously what's triggering him is she's talking
to him like they're in a committed relationship, don't
you think? My knee jerk reaction here is
actually to agree with him that it is a bit much.
What is wrong with you? Are you dead inside?
Maybe, maybe. But here's the thing, it's a bit
much. I also though think that he
(03:27):
didn't handle it well. He, I think, probably should
have attempted to talk about it in person.
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Listen, he's allowed to have his
feelings about it, right? But could you, could you address
it in a way where she doesn't feel embarrassed?
Right. I mean, maybe not because it's
kind of like what you're saying like, Oh well, he can feel how
(03:47):
he feels about it. That kind of goes both ways,
like they're may not be a way toaddress it without her feeling
embarrassed, but I do think thatthat the text is a little off
putting especially. Thanks for the stuff.
Stuff. That stuff from a pile of stuff.
That's all I can think of when Ihear the word stuff now.
That whiskey probably cost her agood amount of money.
(04:09):
I'm sure, right? Hopefully.
Part of it, right? I feel like what he's actually
telling her here is I wouldn't have done this for you.
Unfortunately, and that's, that's the part she needs to
keep in mind. This feels too much to him
because he absolutely would not have done this for her.
The things that she gives him credit for, like being
attentive, remembering small details, He should be doing that
(04:31):
anyway. Right, because.
It's not that fucking hard, right, to be a person in a
conversation, especially if you're interested in them,
right? And it's two months, like you
should be hanging on their everyword.
And and that's, I mean, that's just it like this.
This care package is a demonstration of her doing that,
right? Because she remembered the
brand. She remembered his favorite
(04:52):
snacks. He may be filing those details
away too, right? But he's not acting on them.
Maybe furthermore. I I think.
What he is bristling at is proudof you because that is a little
infantilizing, is it? And why would you say that?
Think that is true regardless ofwhether a woman says it to a man
(05:13):
or a man says it to a woman. You just said this to me a few
weeks ago, you know. Right, but how long have I known
you? How is it not infantilizing?
Why is the time that we've knowneach other?
How is it dependent? I just, I just think saying it
to someone you barely know is infantilizing because there's no
baseline of expectation for whatyou know about how they'll
(05:36):
persevere, how they push throughstruggle, right.
Whereas after you've known someone for a long time, if you
see them being strong like you, you know that like you know.
Oh well, yeah, former. You would have just folded like
origami here, but you didn't. Proud of you.
So do you think it was the basket like the items, was it
the note or was it both? I think it's both.
(05:59):
I just think what she did, it's been two months.
He's paying attention, he's attentive, whatever.
After two months and again, we don't know how many times I've
gone out. Was this like four or five
times? That's important information.
I just feel like if you, if you like that person, you can kind
of file this away and be like, oh, this made me a little
uncomfortable. I don't know that I would bring
(06:21):
it up. I would wait to.
See, I would too, because obviously to her this was no big
deal, right? Right.
She didn't intend it as like a let's lock it down.
Right, right. Kind of gift.
Well, what it says is they're not on the same page, right?
And that's, that is what she should be taking from this.
Of course, as women, we're goingto internalize it.
(06:43):
But what she should be acknowledging is he's telling
her without telling her. Listen, I don't, I don't think
we're on the same page here. And when she got that response,
that is her cue to say this response says to me that maybe
we're not looking at things the same way, or maybe we have a
difference in how we expressed consideration and effect.
(07:05):
But either way, I think it's something we should talk about.
And either he's going to be willing to do that or he's going
to deflect, right? Always use your words when you
can, except don't bother trying to educate.
But you should always use your words to draw a line with
somebody and let them know in a very polite way you're a Dick.
I did something nice for you. And this is the response that I
(07:29):
get. It's the most insensitive,
inconsiderate. It's just such a Dick move.
And what I want to ask is, is this really the first sign that
he's a prick? I think it might be, yeah.
It's essential information that he's telling her.
He wouldn't have done this for her.
For him, this little blip that he's going through might be
(07:50):
nothing like, OK, so I'm having a rough patch at work.
Like you don't need to throw me a parade.
Whereas for her, you know when she's going through a rough
patch, she appreciates things like this.
Is this one of those stupid lovelanguage things like I'm a acts
of? Honestly, I think it might be
yeah. Gift giving seems to be a much
bigger deal to him. Yeah, it does seem like that,
(08:12):
right? And some people are just like
that. They just like to do it.
So does this letter writer, right?
She just needs to, I think, be alittle more discerning about who
she rewards with that behavior. I would agree with that.
I again, it's about valuing yourtime.
Does this person really does your time?
They should be doing the extraordinary for you to reward
(08:35):
them, not they. Listen to me.
Yeah, right. They should be really showing
you that they think you're special.
They should be showing you how they're investing in you.
Right. And this guy kind of was, but I
think again, he was really just doing the bare minimum, right
and the. Confuse.
Right, right, right. And like the bristling at the
(08:57):
gift, I think is, is him feelinguncomfortable, like, oh, maybe
this person is demonstrating an expectation that I will
reciprocate in some future scenario, right.
He probably feels pressure as a result of receiving a gift.
Because some people do, right men?
Men. But again, that is a him
(09:17):
problem, not a her problem, so don't put it on her.
And I realize I'm I'm asking fora lot here for men to be more
self aware and how they respond and how they react.
This does dovetail nicely into the topic of avoidance.
Could this been have been something that triggered his
avoidance? Possibly, but still.
(09:40):
That's a him problem. That's a him problem.
Listen, as an avoid, as somebodywho it has avoidant tendencies,
I have to be, have to be very aware of how I react to somebody
being thoughtful. Even even if it does make me
uncomfortable. I'm, I'm not going to, I'm not
going to let them know that that's a me problem.
(10:03):
It is. Right.
I mean, it's just such, this is just such another example of how
men struggle with empathy. Right.
No, it is, it is. We're totally on the same page
about that. So I guess just to, you know,
clarify like when I I said I thought this might be a bit
much. It really is just that it's a
lot of effort to put in for a man after two months.
(10:25):
Let's go. Let's cut it down to brass
tacks. This is about making effort for
a man. That's what bothers you, right?
That's so cringy. It's not that.
It's more why would you do that for a man, Right, right, right.
If he, if he hasn't already donethat for you.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Agreed, I agree so fuck this guyI.
Don't know actually about fuck that guy.
(10:46):
I feel like if she's very embarrassed and feeling shame
about this, yeah, write him off because obviously you're, you
know, you're not on the same page.
Doesn't have to be this much work.
This is a him problem, etcetera.But if these two can use their
words, I think it might work out.
And it might be a valuable like lesson for both of them,
actually, just about expressing appreciation through gift giving
(11:08):
and whether or not they're comfortable with it.
Yeah, I disagree with you vehemently on this one.
It's just so insensitive. This is how he is.
He's not changing. Fuck that guy.
I said what I said. I stand by it.
That's valid too. That is valid, too.
All right, we're going to move on to another letter.
And she says. I've been dating this guy for a
little over three months. We see each other maybe once a
(11:30):
week. He's always nice, never rude or
dismissive. But there's this emotional wall
I can't quite get past. When we're together, he's
affectionate. He'll hold my hand, kiss me
hello. But the deeper stuff, not there.
No real vulnerability, no checking in, no sense that he
wants to know me beyond the basics.
He's never talked about what he wants long term.
I've brought it up gently and hekind of shrugs and says I'm just
(11:52):
seeing where things go. He's 38.
It's confusing, but there are because there are no huge red
flags. He doesn't disappear, doesn't
pick fights, doesn't love bomb. He just doesn't really show up
emotionally. The connection feels safe but
distant, like I'm dating someonethrough glass.
And I love that image. By the way, I don't want to
label someone unfairly, but I keep reading about avoid an
(12:13):
attachment styles and so much ofit sounds like him.
But then I wonder is that just away of excusing someone who's
not that invested? I guess my question is how do
you tell the difference? Great.
Question. It is a great question because
avoidance is becoming more and more and more common thanks to
dating apps. Everybody seems to think that
(12:34):
you develop your attachment style during your developmental
years. Now.
I studied attachment theory whenI had to get my trauma recovery
certification. And the thing about attachment
style is that they're not fixed,meaning they don't stay the same
necessarily. You don't stay this one way your
whole life. You can learn to go from anxious
(12:54):
to secure or avoidant to secure.You can also be somebody with
this kind of attachment style and still have a healthy
relationship even if you never develop a totally secure
attachment style. That's this is the thing.
These attachment styles can be very fluid.
Can they also vary depending on who you're seeing?
Like maybe certain people can bring out the avoidant in you.
(13:16):
Well, yes and no. Here's the thing, the brain
doesn't know the difference between certain things, between
happiness and excitement. You know when we talk about
PTSD, DHD and depression? This.
For me, I have all three. Now the difference, obviously
PTSD is trauma driven, ADHD is neurodevelopmental, and the
(13:37):
depression can be kind of a combination of the two.
But I know the difference of each one.
I know when I'm dealing with my depression versus my ADHD versus
my PTSD based on certain behavior.
When it's PTSDI feel anxious. When it's my ADHD, I feel kind
of a brain fog. When it's my depression, I feel
a heaviness. It's about the narrative our
(13:59):
brain attaches to each experience.
So if some people bring out the avoid avoidant in you, is it
that they bring out the is it that they're bringing out the
avoidant or is it are they bringout your anxiety right?
Well. Yeah, right.
So I don't really, I can't, I can't answer that question 100%.
That is actually something I'm going to write that down and I
want to research that a little bit.
(14:19):
But the big distinction between avoidance and emotional
unavailability or lack of interest is consistency.
What I'm reading in this letter is that this guy has
consistently been unavailable emotionally.
Now whether or not he's just emotionally unavailable person,
whether or not he's emotionally unavailable to her doesn't
matter because either way it's bad for her.
(14:40):
Avoidance still crave intimacy and we're still very capable of
it. We just get triggered by it.
And the trick is learning how dowe navigate it when we are
triggered? Because as adults, like we were
talking about the guy before with the with the gift, that's a
ham problem. If he was triggered by what she
did, that's a ham problem. And that's something that he
needs to do some introspection on.
(15:02):
An avoidant is very capable of having an emotionally
satisfying, healthy romantic relationship as long as that
they're aware of what's going on.
So many people don't know that they're avoidance but and avoid
it will they'll be there and they'll be doing the work and
they'll be present and they'll be showing you the affection and
the attention. And then something's going to
(15:23):
happen and they get overwhelmed and they get over stimulated and
they pull back, but then they regroup and then they come back.
Now the problem obviously is that that kind of inconsistency
is very problematic for whoever they're dealing with.
The inconsistency is another word for unpredictability.
And that unpredictability is what causes anxiety and
(15:43):
potentially A trauma bond because hot and cold and back
and forth and we don't know. And we become dependent on the
rush when we get that attention and then we crave it when we
don't get it. So an avoidance will be there,
will show you that they're interested, but something will
cause them to withdraw. Whereas somebody who's
unavailable, they're consistently unavailable.
(16:05):
Am I making the distinction clear?
I mean, I would say so, yeah. I think after three months, I
think that's a fair amount of time to say I've observed a
pattern. Right.
And that's the thing we just talked about using your words.
Always use your words to call out behavior that is that is
(16:27):
unhealthy for you. If it's causing you any kind of
strain or grief or whatever, assess the situation.
If you say this, how is this going to go?
But if this is someone who seemsgenuine and they're a good
person and their affectionate and their kind, but they just
have this thing, call it out. Now you're not required to stick
stick this out or hang out and try and fix them.
(16:49):
That's not your job. That is their job.
But when you call it out, it could be the opening for a
really healthy conversation about, oh, OK, so let's let's
talk more about this. And again, don't offer him free
therapy, but kind of laid down aboundary and say, OK, I
understand this, but if this is consistent, that's not for me.
(17:09):
And you don't have to say it like I'm not going to stick
around. If you think the person is worth
it, great. But make it clear.
Decide for yourself. OK, I understand.
But I've got a boundary here. And if this happens again, I'm
done. And then say to this person, I
get it. And then thank you for letting
me in on this and I appreciate the vulnerability, but I need to
(17:29):
explain that if this happens again, I'm not going to be able
to continue in this relationship.
Use your words, put it out there, and then see what happens
if you want right. Yeah, if it seems worth the
effort. If it seems worth the effort and
I know questionable right, because it is a man, so is it
going to be worth it? Only you can decide that.
(17:50):
That's that's my feeling. You know what I would be very
careful not to do though? If she does choose to have this
conversation, I would personallycaution her against using the
word avoidant or or identifying the behavior in any way other
than I noticed when I bring thisup you withdraw or you seem
really hesitant to talk about XYor Z.
(18:10):
Right? Only because I don't want him to
weaponize this against any future women.
If you give him the vocabulary to say I'm going to avoid it,
he's going to tell some later woman this and then she's going
to waste a bunch of her time. Right.
Oh, that's a good point. That is a really good point.
(18:30):
I also want to address how a lotof people think that our
attachment style is developed during childhood.
That's not the case depending onyour experiences.
And This is why I say I do thinkthat dating apps are, they're
creating a particular breed of avoidance because of the extreme
(18:51):
and persistent confusion, ghosting, disappointments that
dating apps present because of the sheer volume of experiences
that dating apps provide. Right, right.
And I've, I've said this forever.
I do think that a lot of emotionally unavailable people
use dating apps for just to get free therapy and emotional
(19:12):
labor. Or validation or.
Validation and and this is men and women both.
They both do it. But the use of dating apps after
a time, when you experience this, it's going to affect how
you attach and interact and bondwith other people, right, right.
So look for consistency. Are they consistently
inconsistent with their emotional investments, with
(19:34):
their time? Or do they seem invested and
everything seems going great andthen something happens that
makes them withdraw? That's not really the vibe I got
from the letter. No, he just seems like a prick.
He just, he's not interested. He's not emotionally.
Built Well Kristen, you say he'snot interested.
I think he is interested in longterm casual sex.
(19:54):
Fair. I think he's, yeah, he's
interested in having a reliable connection to fill his weekend.
But I think the pattern that's observed here about him not
wanting anything deeper is specifically what she needs to
question. Identify it, question it, get
your answer, act on the answer. Yes, agreed.
(20:16):
If you want to, if you've, I mean, if you've already decided
after hearing all this that you have your answer, that's also
fine too. Agreed.
OK, are we moving on? I think so.
OK, Sarah, we're now going to beschools on how to date
intentionally. OK.
By a man, A man who looks like the poor man.
Scott Foley from Scandal. If you know, you know, if you
(20:36):
watch the show, then you know who I'm talking about.
His name is Kevin Slash. Men's relationships.
So maybe he's advising men, but let's see what he has to say.
Most people do not know how to date intentionally and because
of it, they end up in situationships or relationships
that they don't even in the 1st place and it keeps them from
having the dream relationship that they actually want.
(20:58):
So coming from someone who actually has dated
intentionally, I want to give some tips and some feedback to
people so that you can do it too.
And these are my credentials. For anyone wondering.
I met my girlfriend Alina 2 1/2 years ago.
We quickly fell in love, both ofus were dating intentionally by
the way, and we traveled the world, had an amazing time
together and we now live together.
I want to stop right there and just say what he's really doing
(21:20):
is showing off his very, very attractive girlfriend, Right?
That's what he's doing here. His credentials are I met a
girl. A girl hasn't dumped me yet.
That's my credential. But OK, keep going.
The very first thing you need todo before even talking to anyone
is you need to take out a pen and paper.
You need to write down your dream partner list.
(21:41):
Yes, your dream partner list. Because how are you going to
know who you're looking for if you can't even be clear about
it? You need to be able to write it
down and. See, OK, I didn't expect this.
This was not going to be on my bingo cards.
Sarah, I agree with him because remember this workbook I said I
was working on? Well, I finished the first draft
and I actually went through it with a client the other day, and
(22:02):
I absolutely agree with this. What qualities do you want
somebody I'm talking about? What does that relationship look
like? What kind of communication style
and frequency do you want? How long will you date before
exclusivity? How are you going to approach
intentions? That's what all these worksheets
are. And so if you subscribe to our
Patreon at patreon.com/worth theWait Show, I'm going to be
(22:25):
giving some of these worksheets to our subscribers so that they
can have them, they can print them out, they can use them,
they can do whatever they want. And I want people to be able to
picture exactly what they're looking for because not only
does it help you identify it when you see it, but it helps
you communicate your intentions and your goals.
But let's keep going. Does this feel right to me?
(22:46):
Is this the right person that I want?
OK, I think it is. This feels right.
OK, I want to go in that direction.
So what you're going to do is you're going to write down
values, qualities, behaviors. And feelings.
OK, that's exactly that's exactly what I have in my
worksheets. And I'm telling you, be very
specific. I thought I was being very
specific when I wrote 40 things on my list.
(23:06):
Alina ended up writing 5 pages, 3 When you were on these dates,
you need to be very clear and conscious about what you're
looking for, things that you value, trying to cut out certain
types of people that on the first day you'll just know, OK,
you're not for me next. Because the whole point in this
phase is that you were trying toqualify the person you're
actually looking for instead of just getting caught up in the
(23:28):
idea of how amazing they might seem.
All right, there's so much more of this.
Let me know in the comments if you want to.
Part 2. And to nobody's surprise, even
though this guy is supposed to be for men, Who's in the
comments? All women.
Yeah, all women. I don't disagree with what he's
saying. If you are looking for a
relationship, intentionality is key.
(23:48):
Intentionality and clarity is key.
And that means knowing what yourideal partner is like, knowing
what your ideal relationship is like, knowing what you can
invest, knowing what your deal Breakers are.
One of the worksheets that I have is core values.
And it's things like patience, tolerance, humility, and for
(24:08):
lifestyle choice choices, core values, personality rates, you
rate on a scale from 1:00 to 10:00.
What are the must haves? What are one maybe you're
flexible on and what are absolutely not?
Or you know, no, I don't. I don't want somebody like baby
wants kids or has kids and maybeyou don't.
That's a one. You rate it on a scale of 1 to
10. But to be able to look at this
and know exactly what you're looking for, it's going to cut
(24:30):
down and save you so much time. Not just like actual time
investment, but also emotional investment.
Yeah, I imagine it would be really helpful to sort out, oh,
is this person really just doingthe minimum of what they should
be doing anyway or should I be giving the next credit?
Right. And I just made a video about
this on TikTok. I love table topics.
(24:51):
It's it's a sort of a conversation card game and it's
not your typical icebreaker game.
These are questions that are designed to help you get to know
someone beyond a surface level and they have a first date
edition. And there are questions that
help you get to who somebody really is and helps you get a
sense of their core values and whether or not you have things
(25:13):
in common. And I want to be upfront.
I'm going to link to it in the show notes.
I receive a Commission from purchases of table topics.
It's sort of a game, but I have talked about this for years.
We used to use it with the speeddating events.
I used to develop events online around this, especially during
COVID. So I really like this game.
(25:35):
I think it's going to be very, very helpful on a first date.
It helps you avoid the awkwardness, but it really helps
you cut through all the surface level BS conversation and it
might help you avoid the trap ofhe's just going to sit there and
talk about himself. No, here, here's a couple of
cards. You take one, I'll take one,
right? And you might think, Oh my God,
(25:56):
that sounds so weird. Does it?
I. Don't think so, right?
I would think it was fun. Right, The goal is to get your
date to ask you questions. Here, his game.
This just helps you. It helps you save time.
Yeah, I feel. Like if you gamify it too, men
will be more likely to participate.
Right. Yeah, exactly.
So I don't disagree with this guy to be as clear as possible
(26:19):
because when you're trying to communicate what your intentions
are and what your goals are, if you don't know, you can't
communicate it. And when you put it down and you
look at it and you see it and you go, these are my deal
Breakers. These are my boundaries.
Really the ultimate goal is, is to be able to say, what are my
boundaries going to be here? What will I tolerate?
(26:41):
What will I not tolerate? And how do I communicate them?
And one of the worksheets is even a decision tree where I
come up with a few typical conversations, especially
regarding what someone's lookingfor.
And it's this is how you say it.This is how, if this is how they
respond, this is how you respondwhen you you can plan this
conversation in your head, it will take away a lot of the
(27:02):
anxiety and you'll know you won't be taken by surprise and
you won't be reacting from sort of an emotional place.
So I am a big, big believer in what this guy saying.
I think it's I think it's very helpful.
What do you think, Sarah? I agree.
Sarah, do you have any final thoughts?
Well. I I don't know how to feel about
fuck that guy Summerfest continuing like on the one hand,
(27:24):
great. I love the stories, keep them
coming, follow up. But on the other hand, it's
like, when are men going to improve, you know?
Yeah, yeah, I know. It's bitter sweet, Kristen.
It is. It is.
I still think that there that there are men out there trying
to improve. I do.
I think so too. But they have to do it on their
own. We're not doing it for them, no.
(27:45):
We can't fix him, or maybe we could, but who cares, right?
We're not going to even try to fix him, right, which is
Warlock's days. Follow us on social media at
Worth the Wait show on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube.
Send your questions to hello@dataologycoach.com.
Just go to the website and you can submit a question through
the site or send it directly to me at hello@datalgcoach.com.
(28:08):
Follow us on Patreon. Make sure to subscribe.
We get a lot of letters from listeners and we answer the
letters. Some are public, some are
private, but you'll get the advice post.
You'll also get the bi weekly bonus episodes as well as other
behind the scenes content. That's patreon.com/worth the
wait show my Bog, which is I want you to value your time
(28:29):
decenter men and center yourself.
Goodbye, bye.
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