June 24, 2025 • 38 mins
Why abrupt silence can reopen old wounds.
This week, Sarah and I are digging into one of the most relatable—and frustrating—dating experiences: when you’re not sure if someone’s being avoidant… or just not that into you. We start with what might be And Just Like That’s best episode yet (no, seriously), which we fully unpack in a bonus episode here on Patreon. If you’re not subscribed, go now—this one hits hard, especially if you come from a divorced family.
Then we dive into two listener letters. The first comes from someone navigating a situationship that’s starting to feel like emotional breadcrumbing. She says she’s looking for something casual, but her response to slow replies tells a different story—and we talk about why “casual” might be the most misused word in modern dating.
The second letter is all about dating whiplash: a great date, instant connection, and then... poof. We break down what’s really happening when people ghost after intimacy, how your nervous system gets hijacked, and why the shame spiral is the real enemy.
Oh—and someone on TikTok asked if paying off your partner’s $70k student loan should count as a proposal. I had thoughts.
If you’ve ever questioned your intuition after a letdown, or felt like you were asking for too much just by wanting a text back, this one’s for you.
💌 Got a letter? Email us at hello@dateologycoach.com
🎧 Listen and follow on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Bonus, unfiltered episodes on Patreon.
00:00–00:37 – I talk about this week’s And Just Like That recap and why it’s a must-watch (especially if you’ve got divorced parents)
00:38–03:21 – Sarah reads a letter from a queer listener navigating early mixed signals
03:22–08:00 – We unpack mismatched expectations, texting delays, and the illusion of “casual”
08:01–14:44 – I go in on why communication styles are part of compatibility, and why shrinking yourself won’t get you clarity
14:45–23:45 – The TikTok debate: is paying off $70k in debt romantic or manipulative? (Spoiler: I vote manipulation)
23:46–25:22 – We read a letter from someone who got blindsided after a great date—and felt like she imagined the whole thing
25:23–33:23 – We break down dating whiplash, trauma responses, and why men don’t see emotional intimacy the way we do
33:24–38:45 – How to reframe rejection, rebuild trust in your instincts, and stop the shame spiral before it starts
38:46–40:09 – Final takeaways, bonus content reminders, and a little Pride Month love 🏳️🌈
⏱️ Segment Breakdown:
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👀 Got a dating dilemma? A ghosting mystery? An “is-it-me-or-is-he-just-delusional?” situation? Send it in!
We’re answering listener questions on the pod, and we want yours. Whether it’s a green flag you’re second-guessing , a walking ick 🥴, or a text you need decoded —spill it. We’ve got thoughts. Probably too many. 😏 Submit your dating questions here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:10):
Worth the wait podcast Sarah notonly does fuck that Guy
Summerfest continue in this episode, but we've got some
pretty spicy meaty letters and avery provocative question that
you sent me regarding what should a woman do if a man
chooses to pay her a student loan instead of getting her an
engagement ring. And we kind of I think we're
(00:32):
going to come at this from 2:00 to I think we're we're not going
to agree on this. I never know it's so
unpredictable at this point. But we're also going to answer
some letters about that, that first couple of dates and
everything's great. And you think the connection's
there. And then out of nowhere, they
just pull the rug out from underyou and say they're not feeling
it or they just ghost entirely. And we're going to talk about
(00:53):
why we tend to blame ourselves as women.
How do we prevent that and how this can be sort of a, a micro
trauma and, and can trigger old wounds for people and what to do
when it happens? We just got done recording the
recap for and just like that. And I'm going to let everybody
know now. This is one of the best episodes
(01:15):
of the series, not of Sex and the City, but of and just like
that. And if you're not subscribed to
the Patreon, go over and subscribe now because this was a
very pivotal episode. I think that's going to resonate
with a lot of people, especiallyif you come from a divorced
family. So go to patreon.com/worth the
wait show and subscribe. But it's a great episode and I'm
(01:37):
excited. I I really liked it.
I liked the episode but I love doing the recap even more it.
Was a good episode. It was.
Now we have a letter. We have a couple letters.
Actually they do. We do, and I would love for you
to read the first one. All right.
First one says hello. Kristen and Sarah have a
question concerning dating what I imagine to be an avoidant
person. Maybe I should specify I'm
(01:59):
looking for a relationship that would be something like
consistently casual, open for a bit more if there's mutual
desire for it. I'm a busy person with kids,
friends, and activities, and I wish to keep my independence
while adding some joy and romance into my life.
So I'm not looking to live with a partner or anything like that
anytime soon or ever. I met a woman on her, a lesbian
(02:21):
and queer dating app. Since I came back onto dating
apps, it was the first time I felt a bit excited by a profile.
She is incredibly beautiful, creative, outgoing, joyful,
politically engaged, everything I could hope for.
I do feel that I am a bit less interesting than she is.
Rapidly and met two days later for a drink after work.
We connected, conversation was easy and fluid.
(02:43):
We also both could speak in Spanish which facilitated the
connection I think. So we stayed there for almost 3
hours. We had a second date that
consisted of a drink, a restaurant, some sexy dancing,
almost six hours and we said we would meet next week for 1/3
date and I suggested a movie butwe have no actual plans yet.
I've noticed that in between dates, which are about two weeks
(03:04):
apart, she takes a really long time to respond to my message,
anywhere between 24 hours and three days.
I'm not a big texter myself, I would feel overwhelmed if
somebody texted me every day, but I always respond as soon as
I can and I engage pretty easilyin consistent communication.
I know that I'm not sending a lot of texts because I always
wait for a response before sending another one and I keep
(03:25):
it short, which is a bit of a challenge because I like
details. Never ask more than one question
at a time, so I don't think I'm overwhelming her when she does
respond. Her messages are somewhat
detailed so she's not showing a lack of engagement either.
It's been a full week of no contact since the last
communication where we agreed ona movie date.
I kind of knew I should be patient but this feels
(03:46):
triggering to me. I tried not to engage before she
did as a way of letting her havespace, but also to be honest
because of my brew's ego. I wanted to see if she would
write me first. I think if she was a this man I
would have unmatched and disengaged totally from this
because I don't want to put in more effort than he would.
So I wonder how I would communicate with her to make her
know that I think about her and I like her so far but without
(04:09):
much expectation and without triggering into more avoidance
for her. Also, I want to avoid carrying
all the emotional weight of communication in between dates.
Still very early on into dating her.
But how do I know when to disengage if my needs for a more
consistent communication are notthat I'm getting?
Mixed messages, kind of from both of them, right?
(04:31):
Yes. He starts off by saying I'm
looking for something casual, something to bring some joy and
romance into my already pretty full life, which I am a big
advocate of, by the way. And then she meets this person
and it doesn't sound like properboundaries or expectations were
(04:51):
stated. Why do you say that?
Because if she wanted something casual, this woman being taking
so much time to respond shouldn't come as a surprise to
her if they discussed the idea of wanting something casual.
OK, OK. It just feels to me as though
(05:12):
she thinks she wants something casual, but she meets this
person that she really likes. And now, and I'm not saying she
doesn't have a right to be bothered that this person's
taking three days to respond. That communicates to me, I don't
care about you. That's that's right.
That's what that communicates tome.
So I don't blame her for being bothered by that.
(05:34):
However, she's categorizing thisas avoidance when I actually
think it's indifference, MeaningI don't know that this person
shares her level of interest. Just because she felt this
connection doesn't mean that theother person did.
And we're going to be talking about this later because this
happens a lot when you go out onthese dates and you have this
(05:56):
great time and then they pull back and they pull away that
affection. That's sort of a, that's a bit
of a, of a, of a micro trauma that that we experience.
And depending on what your history is, certain things can
be triggered. But we're going to be talking
about that later in the episode.We're going to be talking about
how to cope when you're going through something like this.
(06:17):
She seems very triggered by thiswoman's lack of engagement.
Yeah. I mean, I think that's
reasonable. Yes, right, I do.
However, I also think that if she truly were looking for
something casual, I don't think she'd be bothered.
I don't know that she'd be bothered by this person taking
(06:40):
24 hours to respond. How?
How often is she taking three days?
I mean, if that's if that's the norm, then I would say no, no
way. But this doesn't sound like
somebody who's looking for somebody kiss.
OK. And.
That's that's my take. So she's not looking for
something casual and then the woman she went out with you
think is maybe not matching her level of interest or or
(07:01):
definitely not matching her level of interest.
Definitely doesn't seem to be matching the level of interest
I'm reading this again. Beautiful, creative.
We have a second date party. We said we met, plus the dates
are two weeks apart. She takes a really long time to
respond to my messages. I think there's also this belief
that because she's dating a woman, she's not going to be
(07:21):
dealing with the same nonsense that straight women who date men
or women who date men deal with when if this this sounds like
she could have been writing about, you know, a CIS man it.
Really does. Right.
It really does, yeah. Which, yeah, you want to, you
want to think that it's going tobe easier with a woman if you're
a woman. But it it sounds like there's a
(07:43):
lot of the same issues, same challenges.
Maybe her. I just feel as though her
expectations weren't realistic and I don't feel as though she
communicated what she was looking for.
But I also feel as though, and, and I do think this is now or
(08:03):
should be a first date conversation.
What's your communication style?Are you a texter?
Do you prefer to check in every day?
What's what do you prefer? Because this is important.
And it's important because of this.
It's important because if you'retriggered, if you have
abandonment issues, the lack of engagement can trigger something
(08:25):
with you, then it's really important for you to be with
somebody who's not going to keeptriggering you.
Yeah, which is why I think it's a fair, I think it's a fair
question to ask. Or, or may you might even want
to work it into a profile of what is your love language,
daily text checking in, something like that.
Where you again, because this, this communication style is part
(08:47):
of compatibility. And I don't think we we often
think of it that way, but it is it just doesn't feel to me that
anything was discussed or that expectations or boundaries were
communicated. What about you?
What are you? What are you thinking?
I have a hard time imagining that expectations and
communication style wouldn't have come up on either these
(09:09):
marathon dates. And typically we caution against
marathon dates, but I think I think it is a different case for
women dating women. I just, yeah, I wouldn't, I
wouldn't go on a marathon date as a woman with a CIS man and I
wouldn't recommend either. But I don't think there's
anything wrong with the marathondates in this case.
I just, I just bring it up againto say it seems like you had
(09:32):
time to establish some of these expectations and it's it would
surprise me if that were not thecase.
However, she did say that the second day it was a party,
right? So maybe they didn't actually
talk much at the I have a coupleof follow up questions.
One is because I haven't used the app, Is it is this truly
(09:53):
like phone to phone texting directly?
Or is it possible that the womanin question, the potential
avoidance is getting the messages filtered through the
app and maybe she only logs intothe app every couple of days?
That would be essential to know.Yes, because if that's the case,
that too communicates an indifference, because if you've
(10:15):
just met somebody, you've been out twice, you like them, you're
not going to want to miss their communications.
Well, and probably you're going to suggest, oh, let's take this
off the app, right? Let's just begin texting.
Well, we listen. We we say that, right?
We say they probably communicate.
I don't think the average personknows to communicate what their
(10:35):
preferred communication style is.
I really think women have been told that anything they need in
the relationship is too much andso they don't communicate it.
We're here to tell you and we'rein charge and we make the
decisions. Now.
You are allowed to communicate what's going to trigger you,
what's not going to trigger you whenever the hell you want.
(10:56):
There's no preferred timeline. If this is part of compatibility
for you, state it up front. Get it out there.
These are the things statements only.
Put it out there, you don't haveto wait.
Right, got the impression in this case that the letter writer
was just really being cautious of coming on too strong because
she said like, oh, well, she obviously feels like this woman
(11:18):
is a catch rate. And she said, I feel like she's
more interesting than me. So this must be somebody who's
really good on paper, right? And or on dates, right?
Right. And that may be why you're not
hearing from her, because maybe she's going on a lot of dates.
Right. That's the other thing.
It's, it does sound to me like this person might be dating
multiple people. But here's the thing.
Some people are just really, really good at those first, say,
(11:42):
two to five dates. Oh yeah.
And then they completely fall off.
You know why? Because they never get past
those, those five dates. And we, you know, we're, we're
going to address this with, withthe other letter as well.
But when things go well and thenwe don't hear from them, what
do, what do we do? We wonder, we wonder was it was
it something I did right? And for me when I'm reading this
(12:05):
letter and she's saying, well, Ionly I don't ask more than one
question and I only text as a response to her text.
I'm not initiating. Why are you shrinking yourself?
Why are you? She just seems to be not just
being being cautious, but being almost hyper vigilant over
cautious here. Well, I'm glad you.
(12:27):
I'm glad you mentioned that because the other thing I wanted
to say is you never really know how you're being perceived.
So for all we know, this woman might not even like really know
you're interested. She might think she's matching
your energy if you said casual, she's maybe she's trying to give
it to you. But I don't think we should
ignore the information we do have, which is this is not
(12:52):
making you feel great, right? It's making you doubt yourself.
It's making you, you know, re evaluate every step here and
it's making you feel like she's a little bit out of your league.
So I think, you know, you did technically arrange 1/3 date
like you, you had an informal agreement, right?
So I think this time bite the bullet, reach out and just be
(13:12):
like, here's what I would like to meet.
You know what I mean? Like propose a date.
Just be like, are you free Saturday?
Let's meet here or there. And then, you know, if she
doesn't and give her like a week, I would give it like, you
know, I'd give her at least likea work week.
Reach out on like a Monday aheadof Saturday, right?
And if she's give? Notice by Thursday.
(13:33):
OK. But you're, I want to clarify,
you're saying give her a week's notice, yes, regarding plans,
not give her a week to respond? No.
Right. No, that is not what I'm saying,
right? I'm saying give her a week
notice because that's being respectful of her time and
yours, right? But if you don't hear from her
by Thursday, move on. Right.
And let's not ignore you said the magic word here.
(13:55):
I kind of knew that she would be, that I should be, but this
feels triggering for me. That's a very, very important
part of this story. And.
I feel as though that's the moment, that's the sign where
you say, why is this triggering?Because when we're triggered,
it's probably it's because it's reminding us of something that
(14:18):
caused us great pain or great anxiety or something.
It ain't good, right? That's something to pay
attention to. I would be way more focused on
why is this triggering to me andhow do I work through it.
Then how do I make myself as small as possible so as to not
push this person away? But like Sarah said, pay
(14:38):
attention to how you feel because you're not feeling great
here. But could that be remedied by a
conversation about communicate preferred communication style?
Who knows? You're never going to know until
you try. What was?
What is it that Seema said? Don't ask, don't ask you.
Won't. If you don't ask, you don't get.
Yeah, right. If you don't ask, you don't get
(14:59):
my friend. Right, yeah.
So I would ask her out again, but.
Right. Just see where it goes and then
get that, get that opportunity to get in front of her and have
this conversation. Yeah, You know, the other thing
I, I think I would recommend is if this is in your, if the word
casual is anywhere in your dating profile, I would go ahead
and take it out. I would as well.
I would as well. Because it means something
(15:20):
different to. Everybody.
It's one of those subjective words you really do when you're
writing your dating profile, be very careful about what words
you use, whether it's active, whether it's casual, whether
it's relaxed, whatever it is, these, these adjectives that
everybody uses, they're subjective, they have different
meanings to everybody. So keep that in mind.
All right? I feel as though we're going to
(15:41):
be moving on from this. Feel free to follow up.
Follow up, please. We love a good follow up me a
TikTok. We're not going to play it, but
but we're going to. We're going to sum it up.
Well, there's what is it kind ofnothing to play in this case,
right? I just sent, so I sent Kristen a
screenshot of a it was a tick tock, but there's some text on
the screen and a random woman sitting behind it.
(16:03):
It's a hypothetical question andI'm interested in your take on
it, Kristen. So the question is, a man
proposes to his woman with a receipt of her $70,000 student
loan debt being paid in full. She thanks him, but says she
still requires a ring before getting married.
Is the woman a reasonable, B ungrateful, C smart, or D dumb?
(16:26):
First and foremost, if he chooses to do that, that is
wonderful, but that's on him, number one.
But #2 do men not understand whywomen want engagement rings?
I don't know that they thought about it.
Do you think they think about iteven?
Well, that that is the point that that's no, they don't think
about it, my dude, that ring is not about you.
We're. Not going to say it's not about
(16:46):
him at all because remember whenAiden got the yellow gold ring
with the marquee diamonds? Yep.
And Carrie was, was very upset about it and she was like, Oh my
God, does he even know who I am?It's kind of about him and his,
his taste level in that, in thatway, right?
So we use it as a barometer. I mean, I'm surprised that your
(17:11):
very first response was like, ifyou chose to do that, that's on
him. Well, it is.
Well, it is. Right.
Don't hold. Don't.
Don't make her responsible for that.
It's great that you did it, but unless she asked you to do it, I
don't. I don't.
Do I want someone paying? I don't know that I would want
that because then you're just inyou're, you feel indebted to
them. I mean, if you choose to feel
(17:32):
that way, sure, because as you said, that's on him.
You chose to do it, she didn't ask for it.
Right. OK.
Correct. So that doesn't mean that
doesn't mean it's kind of like Sarah when people I would vote
on New Year's Eve. It's kind of like when people
give me one gift and say it's for both Christmas and New
Year's and my birthday. No, I want 2 gifts.
(17:52):
Does that make me unreasonable? I don't think so.
I want the day of my birth acknowledged.
Sir, if you don't know that she wanted a ring, I don't.
I don't know what to. That's You're showing her that
you didn't know that the ring was important, right?
Am I now? Am I the drama?
I don't think I'm the drama. So what do you think she's
(18:13):
being? Well, initially I was like, I, I
don't know many people with a $70,000 or more engagement ring.
That's, that's quite a lot of money to spend on, on a ring,
even a set, right. So I was like, well, that's, you
know, he's, he's frankly done enough.
But then half a second later I was like, on the other hand, he
(18:36):
already did it, it's already paid right?
It's not like he can get a refund so she might as well ask
for a ring while she's at it. Right.
But also, Sir, just why didn't you just pay 60,000 and get her
a ring? I'm sure she would be just as
overjoyed and relieved at that. If you're going to spend 70, if
you have that kind of money to spend.
(18:56):
That's the other thing, right? Right.
If he just wrote that check or made that payment in one go,
like, yeah, why are we not getting a ring?
What are we doing? Of course you should get a ring.
Right. And, and I think it really does
come down to what does she want?If she if you know that she
always wanted a ring then, and you just chose not to do the
thing you knew she wanted, well Sir, you're an asshole.
(19:19):
You know, Speaking of that, I think you could also argue that
he did that for him, right? Yes, Bill, of course you do that
for him. Wasn't early for her.
I think if he knew she wanted a ring, he should have gotten her
a ring and paid her loan. If you have that kind of money
and you knew she wanted a ring, first of all, if you have that
kind of money, then you have an extra 10,000 to get a ring.
(19:41):
Which can get a very nice ring correct, a set even.
Correct, Yes. So it all depends on what the
woman wanted because not a lot of women want engagement rings.
Right. And, and I was, you know, the
other thing is like a lot of women end up upgrading anyway.
Right. Right, So like right, she can
always get a quote UN quote better ring later, right, If she
(20:04):
wants to or you know, add a bandor whatever.
Right. But yeah, the point is she, she
wants it for this milestone. And it seems to me like, you
know, the framing of this question, like is it seems like
he's trying to use this as leverage to not get a ring,
almost like he wants to see if he can get away with that like
(20:24):
he wants. It's like seems like he wants
her to feel indebted or like she's.
That's what I'm saying for this.That's what I'm saying, right?
It's I don't feel that it's the act of generosity or love that
people think it is. I tend to think there's more
behind. It it's a test, it's a test
(20:44):
manipulation. It sure is.
It is. It's I want to see how she's
going to react. Is she still going to want to
ring? Yes.
And it's. And don't try to.
Yeah, it seems like the beginning of like seeing how
else we can disappoint her. Right, right.
Yes, she is going. To hold this over her forever.
But it's it is, it's that test. And here's the thing.
(21:06):
If she wants a ring, OK, and I want the ring.
Don't make her feel bad because you chose to do something that
she didn't ask you to do and youdecided, well, this is more
important than what I knew she wanted.
You're making that decision for her.
No, we don't do that anymore. Especially Sir, if you're on
(21:27):
that, you're about to get married.
You've got $70,000. You're not talking about it with
her, but what you're going to dowith that money.
Here's what I'm going to do withthis, this extra cash that I
have. Is that a sign of things to come
that you're going to take money out of the account and just
decide what to do with it and decide where it should go and
why it's better to do it here orthere?
That's kind. Of what I mean about like, this
(21:48):
feels like the beginning of a series of tests, right?
How else he can disappoint her? Yeah.
Right. And I think we might be digging,
you know, we analyze things, I think, a little bit deeper.
I don't think we're going too deep here.
No, I don't think we are either.I don't think we are either, but
some people might. But I thought it was a really
thought provoking question because it it's encouraged a
(22:12):
bigger discussion of, well, whatwhat's behind it and what's
going to be expected of her and why can't she have needs and why
can't she want a ring? Right?
He's deciding for her, for her. What's more important.
No, I'm not OK with it. So what was your answer?
Do you think she's being irrational or reasonable or?
Well, like I said, you know, themoney's already spent, so she
might as well ask for the ring. But also, I think, you know,
(22:33):
like I said, he's obviously if he has a spare 70,000, he has a
spare 5 or 10,000, right? Yes.
And yeah, it would be important for me to know that he did this
because he wanted to and not as some sort of introductory test,
which is going to be like a series of like ensuring that I
(22:53):
never push back. So right.
Yeah, I think. It's done to silence her, I
think, to control her. For sure.
That's my personal opinion. I think so.
So fuck that guy and let's move on to the next letter.
OK, so goes we'd love your thoughts on a dating conundrum.
Why didn't I drop off after that?
Appeared to go very well and went on a date this weekend
(23:13):
where I felt totally comfortableand had fun and went into it
with low expectations and was surprised honestly at how great
of a time we had. We were laughing the whole time,
hung out for six hours and were physically affectionate and
kissed at the end. They gave the guy my number at
the end and left completely confident about how it had gone.
He texted me later that evening thanking me for a great time and
(23:35):
said he had a great time connecting.
I asked if he was interested in hanging out again and he sends
me this long text which was honestly sweet, about how he
wasn't as ready to date as he thought he was and that he
didn't quite feel the connectionthat he would need to feel to
move forward romantically. Am I delusional for being
confused by how affectionate he was and how much we seem to vibe
(23:56):
on the date? Taking the rejection in stride,
but I am feeling a bit of whiplash.
This is the emotional whiplash we were we were talking about
earlier in the episode. And so this is very common,
right? It is, and it's can be very,
very confusing, but it can also be very triggering, right?
There's sort of 22 levels to this.
(24:16):
Her confusion is totally normal.Yeah, very understandable.
But what ends up happening for alot of people is they
internalize it. They start questioning
themselves. It alters their perception of
reality. And it's sort of, it kind of
tears open a wound. So why do people do this?
I, what I'm, what I think is interesting is he went through
(24:38):
all the motions and then then hetells her, you know what?
I don't think I'm as ready to date as I thought it was.
And I didn't feel the connectionI would need to move forward.
Well, how would you know that? Because you're not ready to
date. Those are two kind of those
don't align right. First you're saying I'm not in
the right headspace, but then you're saying, well, I, I know
how I should feel. I'm not feeling it.
(24:58):
That to me, that to me is incongruous.
And, and I think the main, I think the real reason was I'm
just not feeling what I need to feel to move forward.
So, so then why did he do it? Because he doesn't attach as
much significance to this behavior as you do.
I mean, I feel like the key thing to always remember about
(25:19):
men is they will continue to take from you as long as you
continue to give. 100. Percent, they will not stop out
of decency or consideration. Or empathy.
Whatever you offer so well, it really does not indicate at all
how they feel. If they have sex with you, if
(25:41):
they hold your hand, if they hold the door for you, if they
laugh at your jokes, they make you laugh.
Doesn't tell you anything about how he's feeling.
Other than like what? He's a good conversationalist
and a good date. You know what tells you whether
or not they truly care about you?
Do they put your needs above theirs?
That's how you know. Yeah, yeah.
That's that's the real, that's the real sign.
(26:01):
Yeah, foreign actions in my. Right, the actions, but not just
actions like, oh, he plans the dates and he buys me that.
No. Does he make himself
uncomfortable to make you comfortable?
Right. Well, I mean, I think that
happens eventually. I don't know that that's
reasonable to expect on a first or second date, which is why
(26:23):
it's so important to not have these marathon dates.
Listen, this is the thing about the marathon dates, is that the
tricky part here is the brain chemistry.
It alters everything. Yep, it does.
That oxytocin, you're going to start being more trusting than
you should be. You're going to start seeing
more of a connection. That's then what is probably
(26:45):
there and you're going to form abond, which makes sense because
what typically happens on those six hour dates, They start
becoming very emotionally vulnerable and emotionally
intimate. I mean, yeah, eventually you're
going to talk about something real, right?
Right, because you're going to start sharing experiences and
you're going to start feeling closer and you're going to start
(27:06):
telling yourself, well, they must really feel comfortable
with me if they're telling me these things.
And that's going to contribute to this idea of wow, they must
really like me. They must really feel safe with
me. Right.
I was going to say. And then after the fact you're
going to convince yourself that like, oh, that's like the
equivalent of three days. We just zoomed out.
Right, right. Yeah, exactly.
(27:27):
Nope, there's there's no shortcuts here.
No, now I want to talk to the people who when they find
themselves in this situation, they have an extreme reaction,
right? I brought it up earlier to many
people who have any kind of history of trauma or who have,
and this is very important, who have dealt with relationships
(27:47):
where things were very emotionally inconsistent, this
kind of you're being led on essentially.
And so when this happens, you know, every, everything's going
great, your nervous system's regulated.
And then when this happens, yournervous system becomes
dysregulated. And when that starts, that's
when you start having all of the, you sort of go into fight
(28:09):
or flight because, because remember, your, your brain only
knows what you're feeling it it doesn't know the context of the
situation. So when you feel this great
disappointment, your brain goes,uh oh, this is bad.
That's when PTSD kicks in or kicks in.
And that's when when your your brain starts to think, oh, oh,
(28:33):
boy, we're not, we're not safe. Yeah.
And. Dredges up all this old stuff.
Right. It dredges up all that old
stuff. This.
It completely disorients your sense of reality and it makes
you go. Was that in my head?
Like, and then you start feelingstupid.
Did I just imagine that? Oh, my God, I can't believe I
told them that. Oh my God, I'm so stupid.
Yeah. Because as women, we're we're
just conditioned to always just blame ourselves for sure.
(28:56):
And if you right, and if you have any kind of attachment
wound, that that sudden detachment, that sudden
abandonment can be really traumatizing.
Yeah. And, you know, there's this kind
of potentially, did you really even have informed consent to be
emotionally intimate? And we really should prioritize
(29:18):
emotional intimacy up there withphysical intimacy?
And did this person misrepresentthemselves to get you to open
up? Do you think so?
Do I think so in this situation or do I think emotional intimacy
is is should be on the? Same happen in this situation.
I don't know. We don't know enough.
We know how she felt. We know it was a six hour date,
so I'm assuming, I'm assuming this guy really, you know what
(29:40):
this sounds like to me. It sounds to me like someone
fresh off a breakup or recent breakup just started dating
again and was really just wantedto be out with a woman and
potentially get laid. And that didn't happen.
And so right, so that's. The vibe I got as well.
Right. And so in a case like that,
yeah. Do I think that that they they
(30:02):
were, they were emotionally intimate without informed
consent? Yeah.
In a situation like that where they're telling somebody they're
looking for a relationship when they know they're not.
And even even if they didn't know, even if they didn't know,
if you behave one way and then after the fact you go, oh, oh,
oh, oh, I don't really feel thatway.
No, this is what we need to be responsible.
We need to be responsible to ouractions and we need to be
(30:23):
considerate. And this is the problem that we
have with women. We not say things like, I just
don't want to, I don't want to lead them on.
We think that way. Men don't.
They don't. Yeah, no, they really need to.
I mean, for like, for men, the worst thing they can imagine is
being uncomfortable, which is part of why they do this too.
Like they probably a part of himwas like maybe we'll have sex if
(30:46):
I just wait this out. Right.
Isn't that the point of the marathon date in the 1st?
Place but then also he probably was like, you know,
subconsciously or on one level thinking it's it's going to be
easier to do this later than in person.
I'm going to just roll with thisfor now.
It's pleasant enough. I'm having an OK time and we
(31:06):
might have sex. Right, agreed.
Now the question is what? What can you do when this
happens, right? I think we have totally
different takes on this, you andI.
Well, we're going to talk about this in two ways.
We're going to talk about this as the person who this isn't
sort of triggering for, and thenwe're going to talk about it for
the person that it is triggeringfor.
And in the first situation for the person that's not
(31:28):
triggering. For me this is a block and
delete situation. Well, I would say it's
definitely shitty behavior, but it's also part of dating.
It's just, it is, you're just going to have this and, and
furthermore, I would say you're going to do this at some point,
right? Except when you do this, it'll
be because it feels less safe for you as a woman to leave in
(31:49):
the middle of the date, right? You won't be like, maybe we'll
have sex, right? You'll just, you'll just be
thinking it's going to be more comfortable to do this over
text. Right.
So you're going. To do this too, it's just part
of the correct but that doesn't negate the fact that it it makes
you feel like you're losing yourgrip on reality right you start
to really question whether you're.
Right. And that is, that's the shared
(32:12):
reaction, yes, between the two, right?
That's the shared reaction of wait, was this in my head,
right? Did I?
And in some cases, I wouldn't say it's in your head, it's that
your brain chemistry has conveyed convinced you of
something that wasn't wasn't accurate.
Or maybe, for whatever reason, you wanted to believe, right?
Right. In both situations, the initial
(32:33):
reaction should be to say to yourself, listen, it felt real
to me and that's what matters. Whether or not it felt real to
him, OK, it felt real to me. And don't pass judgment on it
for sort of, you know, getting not invested but hoping.
For getting fooled. Don't think, oh, I got fooled.
(32:54):
Whether you did or didn't what you reframe it and say, well, it
felt real to me. And the reason you're doing that
is so that you don't start goingdown the shame spiral, right?
You, you don't want to. Oh my God, I was so this and why
did I you don't want to do that because that's just going to
that's that's not going to lead to a good place.
And you need to maybe start rebuilding trust within yourself
(33:18):
in terms of your instincts, because in situations like this,
I, I don't think this is AI, didn't my instincts were wrong
or my intuition. Oh no, there were no reflex.
Right, right, right. Exactly.
You believed it because he wanted you to believe it.
That's that's the thing to remember.
You believed it because he wanted you to believe it.
And that's why it's so importantto validate your own experience.
(33:41):
And like I said, it was real to me.
And then you want to reframe this as this is about them.
It's not about me. Because as women, we tend to
internalize and blame ourselves and we start focusing on
ourselves. And we sit there and we try to
pinpoint, well, what did I do wrong and what happened?
Did I miss a sign? Did you?
Probably not right? This is how women react to it.
(34:04):
Most men do not a lot of men they get, they get angry and
they'll, they'll take men, they're not going to do the
introspection. We're just going to take it out
on you, whereas we take it on ourselves.
So try not to do that, right? Try not to do that.
Try to reframe it as this is, this is a them problem.
This is not a me problem becauseI didn't do anything wrong and
(34:25):
just try and this is so hard. Try not to personalize it.
You know, a lot of people like in this letter, they think
they're ready to date, but they're not.
They think they're over somebody, but they're not right?
They, they think they're ready for a relationship, but they're
not, they're not emotionally available.
They, they have listen, self-awareness is not common in
(34:46):
men. It's really not.
They're not, they don't, they'renot encouraged to be self aware
that they, they socialized to what's the word I'm looking for?
They're not socialized to care how their their behavior effects
other people. Right.
No, not at all. Right, whereas we are so just
reframe it, try not to personalize it.
(35:08):
Make sure to validate your experience, reconnect with your
body, right? Because that nervous system
dysregulation can throw you out of whack a little bit and that
you can do a grounding exercise,you can write in a journal.
And again, I know I keep saying this, I really love journaling.
I've really gotten so much help and healing from journaling.
(35:28):
That's a great way to reconnect to yourself.
So try that. And I would also put A and also
put a sign up somewhere that says fuck that guy and look at
it and say it out loud. I know that sounds hokey.
Fuck that guy. I know how I felt.
I know I didn't do anything wrong.
I know right now I'm not feelingguilty or feeling bad that I
(35:52):
could have hurt somebody. I didn't potentially hurt
somebody. That's how you, we must reframe
it because we're so quick to blame ourselves immediately
reframe it. This isn't about me, this is
about them. I didn't do anything to hurt
anybody. I didn't do anything to confuse
anybody. I didn't give any mixed signals.
I did the right thing and I was I was the right, I was a good
person here. Reframe it so that you don't
(36:14):
start personalizing it and goingdown the rabbit.
What are the? Practical like preventative
measure for next time to just yeah, just try to avoid these
marathon dates like please. You don't necessarily have to
double book yourself for the evening, but he should think
you. Are yeah doctor that either.
No, I'm not saying schedule 2 dates, but like maybe make plans
(36:37):
with friends afterward or or just, you know, act as if you
have somewhere to be after because you need to give
yourself a time limit. Right, but also when you get
home, have something to do when you get home.
Exactly. To re channel, start reading a
book you don't even. Have to go home, that's what I'm
saying. Right.
But if you do read a book, watcha movie, do something else that
(36:58):
so you can create that mental space between yourself and that
date and so that the oxytocin and all of that stuff can all
those brain chemicals can normalize.
And then you can look at it withfresh eyes and say, OK, we had a
great time. They might call me again or they
might text me again, but there'sa real chance that they won't.
And either way, I'm OK. Well, I like that.
(37:20):
Either way, I'm OK. I'm going to put that on a mug
too. Right next to the fuck that guy
won. So that's I.
I can't stress. The reframing is so important
and fuck that guy. Indeed.
Sarah, any final thoughts? No, this is a good one.
I think this was. This was like.
It's hard for everybody to date.I guess it's the take away, you
know, Dating men, dating women, they're all going to behave
(37:40):
badly sometime and so are you. All right, make sure you're
following us on Worth the Wait Show on Instagram, YouTube, and
TikTok. If you want to send in your
dating questions, send them to hello@datologycoach.com or just
go to datologycoach.com to submit the question.
If you want not just our recaps on and just like that, but
advice or feedback that we thinkis maybe a little too spicy for
(38:01):
the public feed, go to patreon.com/worth the Wait Show
and subscribe. And remember, you can listen to
the podcast on YouTube, Spotify,iTunes, Amazon Music, Overcast,
and please, please, please rate US five stars on Spotify.
Bog witches, warlocks. They value your time, Decenter
men, and center yourself. And happy Pride month.
(38:24):
There's a few days left, right? Happy.
Pride month? How?
How did we not remember that? Happy pride month?
OK, goodbye.
Worth the wait podcast Sarah notonly does fuck that Guy
Summerfest continue in this episode, but we've got some
pretty spicy meaty letters and avery provocative question that
you sent me regarding what should a woman do if a man
chooses to pay her a student loan instead of getting her an
engagement ring. And we kind of I think we're
(00:32):
going to come at this from 2:00 to I think we're we're not going
to agree on this. I never know it's so
unpredictable at this point. But we're also going to answer
some letters about that, that first couple of dates and
everything's great. And you think the connection's
there. And then out of nowhere, they
just pull the rug out from underyou and say they're not feeling
it or they just ghost entirely. And we're going to talk about
(00:53):
why we tend to blame ourselves as women.
How do we prevent that and how this can be sort of a, a micro
trauma and, and can trigger old wounds for people and what to do
when it happens? We just got done recording the
recap for and just like that. And I'm going to let everybody
know now. This is one of the best episodes
(01:15):
of the series, not of Sex and the City, but of and just like
that. And if you're not subscribed to
the Patreon, go over and subscribe now because this was a
very pivotal episode. I think that's going to resonate
with a lot of people, especiallyif you come from a divorced
family. So go to patreon.com/worth the
wait show and subscribe. But it's a great episode and I'm
(01:37):
excited. I I really liked it.
I liked the episode but I love doing the recap even more it.
Was a good episode. It was.
Now we have a letter. We have a couple letters.
Actually they do. We do, and I would love for you
to read the first one. All right.
First one says hello. Kristen and Sarah have a
question concerning dating what I imagine to be an avoidant
person. Maybe I should specify I'm
(01:59):
looking for a relationship that would be something like
consistently casual, open for a bit more if there's mutual
desire for it. I'm a busy person with kids,
friends, and activities, and I wish to keep my independence
while adding some joy and romance into my life.
So I'm not looking to live with a partner or anything like that
anytime soon or ever. I met a woman on her, a lesbian
(02:21):
and queer dating app. Since I came back onto dating
apps, it was the first time I felt a bit excited by a profile.
She is incredibly beautiful, creative, outgoing, joyful,
politically engaged, everything I could hope for.
I do feel that I am a bit less interesting than she is.
Rapidly and met two days later for a drink after work.
We connected, conversation was easy and fluid.
(02:43):
We also both could speak in Spanish which facilitated the
connection I think. So we stayed there for almost 3
hours. We had a second date that
consisted of a drink, a restaurant, some sexy dancing,
almost six hours and we said we would meet next week for 1/3
date and I suggested a movie butwe have no actual plans yet.
I've noticed that in between dates, which are about two weeks
(03:04):
apart, she takes a really long time to respond to my message,
anywhere between 24 hours and three days.
I'm not a big texter myself, I would feel overwhelmed if
somebody texted me every day, but I always respond as soon as
I can and I engage pretty easilyin consistent communication.
I know that I'm not sending a lot of texts because I always
wait for a response before sending another one and I keep
(03:25):
it short, which is a bit of a challenge because I like
details. Never ask more than one question
at a time, so I don't think I'm overwhelming her when she does
respond. Her messages are somewhat
detailed so she's not showing a lack of engagement either.
It's been a full week of no contact since the last
communication where we agreed ona movie date.
I kind of knew I should be patient but this feels
(03:46):
triggering to me. I tried not to engage before she
did as a way of letting her havespace, but also to be honest
because of my brew's ego. I wanted to see if she would
write me first. I think if she was a this man I
would have unmatched and disengaged totally from this
because I don't want to put in more effort than he would.
So I wonder how I would communicate with her to make her
know that I think about her and I like her so far but without
(04:09):
much expectation and without triggering into more avoidance
for her. Also, I want to avoid carrying
all the emotional weight of communication in between dates.
Still very early on into dating her.
But how do I know when to disengage if my needs for a more
consistent communication are notthat I'm getting?
Mixed messages, kind of from both of them, right?
(04:31):
Yes. He starts off by saying I'm
looking for something casual, something to bring some joy and
romance into my already pretty full life, which I am a big
advocate of, by the way. And then she meets this person
and it doesn't sound like properboundaries or expectations were
(04:51):
stated. Why do you say that?
Because if she wanted something casual, this woman being taking
so much time to respond shouldn't come as a surprise to
her if they discussed the idea of wanting something casual.
OK, OK. It just feels to me as though
(05:12):
she thinks she wants something casual, but she meets this
person that she really likes. And now, and I'm not saying she
doesn't have a right to be bothered that this person's
taking three days to respond. That communicates to me, I don't
care about you. That's that's right.
That's what that communicates tome.
So I don't blame her for being bothered by that.
(05:34):
However, she's categorizing thisas avoidance when I actually
think it's indifference, MeaningI don't know that this person
shares her level of interest. Just because she felt this
connection doesn't mean that theother person did.
And we're going to be talking about this later because this
happens a lot when you go out onthese dates and you have this
(05:56):
great time and then they pull back and they pull away that
affection. That's sort of a, that's a bit
of a, of a, of a micro trauma that that we experience.
And depending on what your history is, certain things can
be triggered. But we're going to be talking
about that later in the episode.We're going to be talking about
how to cope when you're going through something like this.
(06:17):
She seems very triggered by thiswoman's lack of engagement.
Yeah. I mean, I think that's
reasonable. Yes, right, I do.
However, I also think that if she truly were looking for
something casual, I don't think she'd be bothered.
I don't know that she'd be bothered by this person taking
(06:40):
24 hours to respond. How?
How often is she taking three days?
I mean, if that's if that's the norm, then I would say no, no
way. But this doesn't sound like
somebody who's looking for somebody kiss.
OK. And.
That's that's my take. So she's not looking for
something casual and then the woman she went out with you
think is maybe not matching her level of interest or or
(07:01):
definitely not matching her level of interest.
Definitely doesn't seem to be matching the level of interest
I'm reading this again. Beautiful, creative.
We have a second date party. We said we met, plus the dates
are two weeks apart. She takes a really long time to
respond to my messages. I think there's also this belief
that because she's dating a woman, she's not going to be
(07:21):
dealing with the same nonsense that straight women who date men
or women who date men deal with when if this this sounds like
she could have been writing about, you know, a CIS man it.
Really does. Right.
It really does, yeah. Which, yeah, you want to, you
want to think that it's going tobe easier with a woman if you're
a woman. But it it sounds like there's a
(07:43):
lot of the same issues, same challenges.
Maybe her. I just feel as though her
expectations weren't realistic and I don't feel as though she
communicated what she was looking for.
But I also feel as though, and, and I do think this is now or
(08:03):
should be a first date conversation.
What's your communication style?Are you a texter?
Do you prefer to check in every day?
What's what do you prefer? Because this is important.
And it's important because of this.
It's important because if you'retriggered, if you have
abandonment issues, the lack of engagement can trigger something
(08:25):
with you, then it's really important for you to be with
somebody who's not going to keeptriggering you.
Yeah, which is why I think it's a fair, I think it's a fair
question to ask. Or, or may you might even want
to work it into a profile of what is your love language,
daily text checking in, something like that.
Where you again, because this, this communication style is part
(08:47):
of compatibility. And I don't think we we often
think of it that way, but it is it just doesn't feel to me that
anything was discussed or that expectations or boundaries were
communicated. What about you?
What are you? What are you thinking?
I have a hard time imagining that expectations and
communication style wouldn't have come up on either these
(09:09):
marathon dates. And typically we caution against
marathon dates, but I think I think it is a different case for
women dating women. I just, yeah, I wouldn't, I
wouldn't go on a marathon date as a woman with a CIS man and I
wouldn't recommend either. But I don't think there's
anything wrong with the marathondates in this case.
I just, I just bring it up againto say it seems like you had
(09:32):
time to establish some of these expectations and it's it would
surprise me if that were not thecase.
However, she did say that the second day it was a party,
right? So maybe they didn't actually
talk much at the I have a coupleof follow up questions.
One is because I haven't used the app, Is it is this truly
(09:53):
like phone to phone texting directly?
Or is it possible that the womanin question, the potential
avoidance is getting the messages filtered through the
app and maybe she only logs intothe app every couple of days?
That would be essential to know.Yes, because if that's the case,
that too communicates an indifference, because if you've
(10:15):
just met somebody, you've been out twice, you like them, you're
not going to want to miss their communications.
Well, and probably you're going to suggest, oh, let's take this
off the app, right? Let's just begin texting.
Well, we listen. We we say that, right?
We say they probably communicate.
I don't think the average personknows to communicate what their
(10:35):
preferred communication style is.
I really think women have been told that anything they need in
the relationship is too much andso they don't communicate it.
We're here to tell you and we'rein charge and we make the
decisions. Now.
You are allowed to communicate what's going to trigger you,
what's not going to trigger you whenever the hell you want.
(10:56):
There's no preferred timeline. If this is part of compatibility
for you, state it up front. Get it out there.
These are the things statements only.
Put it out there, you don't haveto wait.
Right, got the impression in this case that the letter writer
was just really being cautious of coming on too strong because
she said like, oh, well, she obviously feels like this woman
(11:18):
is a catch rate. And she said, I feel like she's
more interesting than me. So this must be somebody who's
really good on paper, right? And or on dates, right?
Right. And that may be why you're not
hearing from her, because maybe she's going on a lot of dates.
Right. That's the other thing.
It's, it does sound to me like this person might be dating
multiple people. But here's the thing.
Some people are just really, really good at those first, say,
(11:42):
two to five dates. Oh yeah.
And then they completely fall off.
You know why? Because they never get past
those, those five dates. And we, you know, we're, we're
going to address this with, withthe other letter as well.
But when things go well and thenwe don't hear from them, what
do, what do we do? We wonder, we wonder was it was
it something I did right? And for me when I'm reading this
(12:05):
letter and she's saying, well, Ionly I don't ask more than one
question and I only text as a response to her text.
I'm not initiating. Why are you shrinking yourself?
Why are you? She just seems to be not just
being being cautious, but being almost hyper vigilant over
cautious here. Well, I'm glad you.
(12:27):
I'm glad you mentioned that because the other thing I wanted
to say is you never really know how you're being perceived.
So for all we know, this woman might not even like really know
you're interested. She might think she's matching
your energy if you said casual, she's maybe she's trying to give
it to you. But I don't think we should
ignore the information we do have, which is this is not
(12:52):
making you feel great, right? It's making you doubt yourself.
It's making you, you know, re evaluate every step here and
it's making you feel like she's a little bit out of your league.
So I think, you know, you did technically arrange 1/3 date
like you, you had an informal agreement, right?
So I think this time bite the bullet, reach out and just be
(13:12):
like, here's what I would like to meet.
You know what I mean? Like propose a date.
Just be like, are you free Saturday?
Let's meet here or there. And then, you know, if she
doesn't and give her like a week, I would give it like, you
know, I'd give her at least likea work week.
Reach out on like a Monday aheadof Saturday, right?
And if she's give? Notice by Thursday.
(13:33):
OK. But you're, I want to clarify,
you're saying give her a week's notice, yes, regarding plans,
not give her a week to respond? No.
Right. No, that is not what I'm saying,
right? I'm saying give her a week
notice because that's being respectful of her time and
yours, right? But if you don't hear from her
by Thursday, move on. Right.
And let's not ignore you said the magic word here.
(13:55):
I kind of knew that she would be, that I should be, but this
feels triggering for me. That's a very, very important
part of this story. And.
I feel as though that's the moment, that's the sign where
you say, why is this triggering?Because when we're triggered,
it's probably it's because it's reminding us of something that
(14:18):
caused us great pain or great anxiety or something.
It ain't good, right? That's something to pay
attention to. I would be way more focused on
why is this triggering to me andhow do I work through it.
Then how do I make myself as small as possible so as to not
push this person away? But like Sarah said, pay
(14:38):
attention to how you feel because you're not feeling great
here. But could that be remedied by a
conversation about communicate preferred communication style?
Who knows? You're never going to know until
you try. What was?
What is it that Seema said? Don't ask, don't ask you.
Won't. If you don't ask, you don't get.
Yeah, right. If you don't ask, you don't get
(14:59):
my friend. Right, yeah.
So I would ask her out again, but.
Right. Just see where it goes and then
get that, get that opportunity to get in front of her and have
this conversation. Yeah, You know, the other thing
I, I think I would recommend is if this is in your, if the word
casual is anywhere in your dating profile, I would go ahead
and take it out. I would as well.
I would as well. Because it means something
(15:20):
different to. Everybody.
It's one of those subjective words you really do when you're
writing your dating profile, be very careful about what words
you use, whether it's active, whether it's casual, whether
it's relaxed, whatever it is, these, these adjectives that
everybody uses, they're subjective, they have different
meanings to everybody. So keep that in mind.
All right? I feel as though we're going to
(15:41):
be moving on from this. Feel free to follow up.
Follow up, please. We love a good follow up me a
TikTok. We're not going to play it, but
but we're going to. We're going to sum it up.
Well, there's what is it kind ofnothing to play in this case,
right? I just sent, so I sent Kristen a
screenshot of a it was a tick tock, but there's some text on
the screen and a random woman sitting behind it.
(16:03):
It's a hypothetical question andI'm interested in your take on
it, Kristen. So the question is, a man
proposes to his woman with a receipt of her $70,000 student
loan debt being paid in full. She thanks him, but says she
still requires a ring before getting married.
Is the woman a reasonable, B ungrateful, C smart, or D dumb?
(16:26):
First and foremost, if he chooses to do that, that is
wonderful, but that's on him, number one.
But #2 do men not understand whywomen want engagement rings?
I don't know that they thought about it.
Do you think they think about iteven?
Well, that that is the point that that's no, they don't think
about it, my dude, that ring is not about you.
We're. Not going to say it's not about
(16:46):
him at all because remember whenAiden got the yellow gold ring
with the marquee diamonds? Yep.
And Carrie was, was very upset about it and she was like, Oh my
God, does he even know who I am?It's kind of about him and his,
his taste level in that, in thatway, right?
So we use it as a barometer. I mean, I'm surprised that your
(17:11):
very first response was like, ifyou chose to do that, that's on
him. Well, it is.
Well, it is. Right.
Don't hold. Don't.
Don't make her responsible for that.
It's great that you did it, but unless she asked you to do it, I
don't. I don't.
Do I want someone paying? I don't know that I would want
that because then you're just inyou're, you feel indebted to
them. I mean, if you choose to feel
(17:32):
that way, sure, because as you said, that's on him.
You chose to do it, she didn't ask for it.
Right. OK.
Correct. So that doesn't mean that
doesn't mean it's kind of like Sarah when people I would vote
on New Year's Eve. It's kind of like when people
give me one gift and say it's for both Christmas and New
Year's and my birthday. No, I want 2 gifts.
(17:52):
Does that make me unreasonable? I don't think so.
I want the day of my birth acknowledged.
Sir, if you don't know that she wanted a ring, I don't.
I don't know what to. That's You're showing her that
you didn't know that the ring was important, right?
Am I now? Am I the drama?
I don't think I'm the drama. So what do you think she's
(18:13):
being? Well, initially I was like, I, I
don't know many people with a $70,000 or more engagement ring.
That's, that's quite a lot of money to spend on, on a ring,
even a set, right. So I was like, well, that's, you
know, he's, he's frankly done enough.
But then half a second later I was like, on the other hand, he
(18:36):
already did it, it's already paid right?
It's not like he can get a refund so she might as well ask
for a ring while she's at it. Right.
But also, Sir, just why didn't you just pay 60,000 and get her
a ring? I'm sure she would be just as
overjoyed and relieved at that. If you're going to spend 70, if
you have that kind of money to spend.
(18:56):
That's the other thing, right? Right.
If he just wrote that check or made that payment in one go,
like, yeah, why are we not getting a ring?
What are we doing? Of course you should get a ring.
Right. And, and I think it really does
come down to what does she want?If she if you know that she
always wanted a ring then, and you just chose not to do the
thing you knew she wanted, well Sir, you're an asshole.
(19:19):
You know, Speaking of that, I think you could also argue that
he did that for him, right? Yes, Bill, of course you do that
for him. Wasn't early for her.
I think if he knew she wanted a ring, he should have gotten her
a ring and paid her loan. If you have that kind of money
and you knew she wanted a ring, first of all, if you have that
kind of money, then you have an extra 10,000 to get a ring.
(19:41):
Which can get a very nice ring correct, a set even.
Correct, Yes. So it all depends on what the
woman wanted because not a lot of women want engagement rings.
Right. And, and I was, you know, the
other thing is like a lot of women end up upgrading anyway.
Right. Right, So like right, she can
always get a quote UN quote better ring later, right, If she
(20:04):
wants to or you know, add a bandor whatever.
Right. But yeah, the point is she, she
wants it for this milestone. And it seems to me like, you
know, the framing of this question, like is it seems like
he's trying to use this as leverage to not get a ring,
almost like he wants to see if he can get away with that like
(20:24):
he wants. It's like seems like he wants
her to feel indebted or like she's.
That's what I'm saying for this.That's what I'm saying, right?
It's I don't feel that it's the act of generosity or love that
people think it is. I tend to think there's more
behind. It it's a test, it's a test
(20:44):
manipulation. It sure is.
It is. It's I want to see how she's
going to react. Is she still going to want to
ring? Yes.
And it's. And don't try to.
Yeah, it seems like the beginning of like seeing how
else we can disappoint her. Right, right.
Yes, she is going. To hold this over her forever.
But it's it is, it's that test. And here's the thing.
(21:06):
If she wants a ring, OK, and I want the ring.
Don't make her feel bad because you chose to do something that
she didn't ask you to do and youdecided, well, this is more
important than what I knew she wanted.
You're making that decision for her.
No, we don't do that anymore. Especially Sir, if you're on
(21:27):
that, you're about to get married.
You've got $70,000. You're not talking about it with
her, but what you're going to dowith that money.
Here's what I'm going to do withthis, this extra cash that I
have. Is that a sign of things to come
that you're going to take money out of the account and just
decide what to do with it and decide where it should go and
why it's better to do it here orthere?
That's kind. Of what I mean about like, this
(21:48):
feels like the beginning of a series of tests, right?
How else he can disappoint her? Yeah.
Right. And I think we might be digging,
you know, we analyze things, I think, a little bit deeper.
I don't think we're going too deep here.
No, I don't think we are either.I don't think we are either, but
some people might. But I thought it was a really
thought provoking question because it it's encouraged a
(22:12):
bigger discussion of, well, whatwhat's behind it and what's
going to be expected of her and why can't she have needs and why
can't she want a ring? Right?
He's deciding for her, for her. What's more important.
No, I'm not OK with it. So what was your answer?
Do you think she's being irrational or reasonable or?
Well, like I said, you know, themoney's already spent, so she
might as well ask for the ring. But also, I think, you know,
(22:33):
like I said, he's obviously if he has a spare 70,000, he has a
spare 5 or 10,000, right? Yes.
And yeah, it would be important for me to know that he did this
because he wanted to and not as some sort of introductory test,
which is going to be like a series of like ensuring that I
(22:53):
never push back. So right.
Yeah, I think. It's done to silence her, I
think, to control her. For sure.
That's my personal opinion. I think so.
So fuck that guy and let's move on to the next letter.
OK, so goes we'd love your thoughts on a dating conundrum.
Why didn't I drop off after that?
Appeared to go very well and went on a date this weekend
(23:13):
where I felt totally comfortableand had fun and went into it
with low expectations and was surprised honestly at how great
of a time we had. We were laughing the whole time,
hung out for six hours and were physically affectionate and
kissed at the end. They gave the guy my number at
the end and left completely confident about how it had gone.
He texted me later that evening thanking me for a great time and
(23:35):
said he had a great time connecting.
I asked if he was interested in hanging out again and he sends
me this long text which was honestly sweet, about how he
wasn't as ready to date as he thought he was and that he
didn't quite feel the connectionthat he would need to feel to
move forward romantically. Am I delusional for being
confused by how affectionate he was and how much we seem to vibe
(23:56):
on the date? Taking the rejection in stride,
but I am feeling a bit of whiplash.
This is the emotional whiplash we were we were talking about
earlier in the episode. And so this is very common,
right? It is, and it's can be very,
very confusing, but it can also be very triggering, right?
There's sort of 22 levels to this.
(24:16):
Her confusion is totally normal.Yeah, very understandable.
But what ends up happening for alot of people is they
internalize it. They start questioning
themselves. It alters their perception of
reality. And it's sort of, it kind of
tears open a wound. So why do people do this?
I, what I'm, what I think is interesting is he went through
(24:38):
all the motions and then then hetells her, you know what?
I don't think I'm as ready to date as I thought it was.
And I didn't feel the connectionI would need to move forward.
Well, how would you know that? Because you're not ready to
date. Those are two kind of those
don't align right. First you're saying I'm not in
the right headspace, but then you're saying, well, I, I know
how I should feel. I'm not feeling it.
(24:58):
That to me, that to me is incongruous.
And, and I think the main, I think the real reason was I'm
just not feeling what I need to feel to move forward.
So, so then why did he do it? Because he doesn't attach as
much significance to this behavior as you do.
I mean, I feel like the key thing to always remember about
(25:19):
men is they will continue to take from you as long as you
continue to give. 100. Percent, they will not stop out
of decency or consideration. Or empathy.
Whatever you offer so well, it really does not indicate at all
how they feel. If they have sex with you, if
(25:41):
they hold your hand, if they hold the door for you, if they
laugh at your jokes, they make you laugh.
Doesn't tell you anything about how he's feeling.
Other than like what? He's a good conversationalist
and a good date. You know what tells you whether
or not they truly care about you?
Do they put your needs above theirs?
That's how you know. Yeah, yeah.
That's that's the real, that's the real sign.
(26:01):
Yeah, foreign actions in my. Right, the actions, but not just
actions like, oh, he plans the dates and he buys me that.
No. Does he make himself
uncomfortable to make you comfortable?
Right. Well, I mean, I think that
happens eventually. I don't know that that's
reasonable to expect on a first or second date, which is why
(26:23):
it's so important to not have these marathon dates.
Listen, this is the thing about the marathon dates, is that the
tricky part here is the brain chemistry.
It alters everything. Yep, it does.
That oxytocin, you're going to start being more trusting than
you should be. You're going to start seeing
more of a connection. That's then what is probably
(26:45):
there and you're going to form abond, which makes sense because
what typically happens on those six hour dates, They start
becoming very emotionally vulnerable and emotionally
intimate. I mean, yeah, eventually you're
going to talk about something real, right?
Right, because you're going to start sharing experiences and
you're going to start feeling closer and you're going to start
(27:06):
telling yourself, well, they must really feel comfortable
with me if they're telling me these things.
And that's going to contribute to this idea of wow, they must
really like me. They must really feel safe with
me. Right.
I was going to say. And then after the fact you're
going to convince yourself that like, oh, that's like the
equivalent of three days. We just zoomed out.
Right, right. Yeah, exactly.
(27:27):
Nope, there's there's no shortcuts here.
No, now I want to talk to the people who when they find
themselves in this situation, they have an extreme reaction,
right? I brought it up earlier to many
people who have any kind of history of trauma or who have,
and this is very important, who have dealt with relationships
(27:47):
where things were very emotionally inconsistent, this
kind of you're being led on essentially.
And so when this happens, you know, every, everything's going
great, your nervous system's regulated.
And then when this happens, yournervous system becomes
dysregulated. And when that starts, that's
when you start having all of the, you sort of go into fight
(28:09):
or flight because, because remember, your, your brain only
knows what you're feeling it it doesn't know the context of the
situation. So when you feel this great
disappointment, your brain goes,uh oh, this is bad.
That's when PTSD kicks in or kicks in.
And that's when when your your brain starts to think, oh, oh,
(28:33):
boy, we're not, we're not safe. Yeah.
And. Dredges up all this old stuff.
Right. It dredges up all that old
stuff. This.
It completely disorients your sense of reality and it makes
you go. Was that in my head?
Like, and then you start feelingstupid.
Did I just imagine that? Oh, my God, I can't believe I
told them that. Oh my God, I'm so stupid.
Yeah. Because as women, we're we're
just conditioned to always just blame ourselves for sure.
(28:56):
And if you right, and if you have any kind of attachment
wound, that that sudden detachment, that sudden
abandonment can be really traumatizing.
Yeah. And, you know, there's this kind
of potentially, did you really even have informed consent to be
emotionally intimate? And we really should prioritize
(29:18):
emotional intimacy up there withphysical intimacy?
And did this person misrepresentthemselves to get you to open
up? Do you think so?
Do I think so in this situation or do I think emotional intimacy
is is should be on the? Same happen in this situation.
I don't know. We don't know enough.
We know how she felt. We know it was a six hour date,
so I'm assuming, I'm assuming this guy really, you know what
(29:40):
this sounds like to me. It sounds to me like someone
fresh off a breakup or recent breakup just started dating
again and was really just wantedto be out with a woman and
potentially get laid. And that didn't happen.
And so right, so that's. The vibe I got as well.
Right. And so in a case like that,
yeah. Do I think that that they they
(30:02):
were, they were emotionally intimate without informed
consent? Yeah.
In a situation like that where they're telling somebody they're
looking for a relationship when they know they're not.
And even even if they didn't know, even if they didn't know,
if you behave one way and then after the fact you go, oh, oh,
oh, oh, I don't really feel thatway.
No, this is what we need to be responsible.
We need to be responsible to ouractions and we need to be
(30:23):
considerate. And this is the problem that we
have with women. We not say things like, I just
don't want to, I don't want to lead them on.
We think that way. Men don't.
They don't. Yeah, no, they really need to.
I mean, for like, for men, the worst thing they can imagine is
being uncomfortable, which is part of why they do this too.
Like they probably a part of himwas like maybe we'll have sex if
(30:46):
I just wait this out. Right.
Isn't that the point of the marathon date in the 1st?
Place but then also he probably was like, you know,
subconsciously or on one level thinking it's it's going to be
easier to do this later than in person.
I'm going to just roll with thisfor now.
It's pleasant enough. I'm having an OK time and we
(31:06):
might have sex. Right, agreed.
Now the question is what? What can you do when this
happens, right? I think we have totally
different takes on this, you andI.
Well, we're going to talk about this in two ways.
We're going to talk about this as the person who this isn't
sort of triggering for, and thenwe're going to talk about it for
the person that it is triggeringfor.
And in the first situation for the person that's not
(31:28):
triggering. For me this is a block and
delete situation. Well, I would say it's
definitely shitty behavior, but it's also part of dating.
It's just, it is, you're just going to have this and, and
furthermore, I would say you're going to do this at some point,
right? Except when you do this, it'll
be because it feels less safe for you as a woman to leave in
(31:49):
the middle of the date, right? You won't be like, maybe we'll
have sex, right? You'll just, you'll just be
thinking it's going to be more comfortable to do this over
text. Right.
So you're going. To do this too, it's just part
of the correct but that doesn't negate the fact that it it makes
you feel like you're losing yourgrip on reality right you start
to really question whether you're.
Right. And that is, that's the shared
(32:12):
reaction, yes, between the two, right?
That's the shared reaction of wait, was this in my head,
right? Did I?
And in some cases, I wouldn't say it's in your head, it's that
your brain chemistry has conveyed convinced you of
something that wasn't wasn't accurate.
Or maybe, for whatever reason, you wanted to believe, right?
Right. In both situations, the initial
(32:33):
reaction should be to say to yourself, listen, it felt real
to me and that's what matters. Whether or not it felt real to
him, OK, it felt real to me. And don't pass judgment on it
for sort of, you know, getting not invested but hoping.
For getting fooled. Don't think, oh, I got fooled.
(32:54):
Whether you did or didn't what you reframe it and say, well, it
felt real to me. And the reason you're doing that
is so that you don't start goingdown the shame spiral, right?
You, you don't want to. Oh my God, I was so this and why
did I you don't want to do that because that's just going to
that's that's not going to lead to a good place.
And you need to maybe start rebuilding trust within yourself
(33:18):
in terms of your instincts, because in situations like this,
I, I don't think this is AI, didn't my instincts were wrong
or my intuition. Oh no, there were no reflex.
Right, right, right. Exactly.
You believed it because he wanted you to believe it.
That's that's the thing to remember.
You believed it because he wanted you to believe it.
And that's why it's so importantto validate your own experience.
(33:41):
And like I said, it was real to me.
And then you want to reframe this as this is about them.
It's not about me. Because as women, we tend to
internalize and blame ourselves and we start focusing on
ourselves. And we sit there and we try to
pinpoint, well, what did I do wrong and what happened?
Did I miss a sign? Did you?
Probably not right? This is how women react to it.
(34:04):
Most men do not a lot of men they get, they get angry and
they'll, they'll take men, they're not going to do the
introspection. We're just going to take it out
on you, whereas we take it on ourselves.
So try not to do that, right? Try not to do that.
Try to reframe it as this is, this is a them problem.
This is not a me problem becauseI didn't do anything wrong and
(34:25):
just try and this is so hard. Try not to personalize it.
You know, a lot of people like in this letter, they think
they're ready to date, but they're not.
They think they're over somebody, but they're not right?
They, they think they're ready for a relationship, but they're
not, they're not emotionally available.
They, they have listen, self-awareness is not common in
(34:46):
men. It's really not.
They're not, they don't, they'renot encouraged to be self aware
that they, they socialized to what's the word I'm looking for?
They're not socialized to care how their their behavior effects
other people. Right.
No, not at all. Right, whereas we are so just
reframe it, try not to personalize it.
(35:08):
Make sure to validate your experience, reconnect with your
body, right? Because that nervous system
dysregulation can throw you out of whack a little bit and that
you can do a grounding exercise,you can write in a journal.
And again, I know I keep saying this, I really love journaling.
I've really gotten so much help and healing from journaling.
(35:28):
That's a great way to reconnect to yourself.
So try that. And I would also put A and also
put a sign up somewhere that says fuck that guy and look at
it and say it out loud. I know that sounds hokey.
Fuck that guy. I know how I felt.
I know I didn't do anything wrong.
I know right now I'm not feelingguilty or feeling bad that I
(35:52):
could have hurt somebody. I didn't potentially hurt
somebody. That's how you, we must reframe
it because we're so quick to blame ourselves immediately
reframe it. This isn't about me, this is
about them. I didn't do anything to hurt
anybody. I didn't do anything to confuse
anybody. I didn't give any mixed signals.
I did the right thing and I was I was the right, I was a good
person here. Reframe it so that you don't
(36:14):
start personalizing it and goingdown the rabbit.
What are the? Practical like preventative
measure for next time to just yeah, just try to avoid these
marathon dates like please. You don't necessarily have to
double book yourself for the evening, but he should think
you. Are yeah doctor that either.
No, I'm not saying schedule 2 dates, but like maybe make plans
(36:37):
with friends afterward or or just, you know, act as if you
have somewhere to be after because you need to give
yourself a time limit. Right, but also when you get
home, have something to do when you get home.
Exactly. To re channel, start reading a
book you don't even. Have to go home, that's what I'm
saying. Right.
But if you do read a book, watcha movie, do something else that
(36:58):
so you can create that mental space between yourself and that
date and so that the oxytocin and all of that stuff can all
those brain chemicals can normalize.
And then you can look at it withfresh eyes and say, OK, we had a
great time. They might call me again or they
might text me again, but there'sa real chance that they won't.
And either way, I'm OK. Well, I like that.
(37:20):
Either way, I'm OK. I'm going to put that on a mug
too. Right next to the fuck that guy
won. So that's I.
I can't stress. The reframing is so important
and fuck that guy. Indeed.
Sarah, any final thoughts? No, this is a good one.
I think this was. This was like.
It's hard for everybody to date.I guess it's the take away, you
know, Dating men, dating women, they're all going to behave
(37:40):
badly sometime and so are you. All right, make sure you're
following us on Worth the Wait Show on Instagram, YouTube, and
TikTok. If you want to send in your
dating questions, send them to hello@datologycoach.com or just
go to datologycoach.com to submit the question.
If you want not just our recaps on and just like that, but
advice or feedback that we thinkis maybe a little too spicy for
(38:01):
the public feed, go to patreon.com/worth the Wait Show
and subscribe. And remember, you can listen to
the podcast on YouTube, Spotify,iTunes, Amazon Music, Overcast,
and please, please, please rate US five stars on Spotify.
Bog witches, warlocks. They value your time, Decenter
men, and center yourself. And happy Pride month.
(38:24):
There's a few days left, right? Happy.
Pride month? How?
How did we not remember that? Happy pride month?
OK, goodbye.
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