Ep 118: Jordan Roter on her Journey From TV Writer to Novelist

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Have you ever sat through a back-to-school night and thought, Wow, this could be a novel? Jordan Roter did—and then she actually wrote it. Moms Like Us (coming May 2025 from Little A) hilariously unpacks the cutthroat social hierarchy of LA moms, complete with all the messy, cringey, and oh-so-relatable moments of motherhood and friendship.

In this laugh-out-loud episode, we chatted about:

🔥 Jordan’s career hops from YA author to TV writer (American Housewife, The Watchful Eye) and back to novel writing.
🔥 The painfully awkward school event that sparked her book idea.
🔥 Why juggling multiple POVs is like hosting a dinner party where everyone wants to talk at once.
🔥 Hollywood vs. publishing: one’s a chaotic circus, the other’s...slightly less chaotic
🔥 Writing the real (sometimes dark, often hilarious) thoughts moms have but rarely admit
🔥 The shift toward "radical truth-telling" in motherhood writing (because perfection is overrated)
🔥 And also...how she ended up with an Amy Poehler blurb 

Buckle up, because this episode is a good one.

Visit publishaprofitablebook.com or find Elizabeth on Instagram (@elizabethlyonsauthor) for more book writing and publishing tips and solutions.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and

(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram

(01:08):
at Elizabeth Lyons.
Author.
You know people keep and theyknow who they are, keep telling
me certain people in my life,liz, you can't make friends if
you don't ever leave your house,and you know I just keep
proving them wrong, and thisweek was no exception.
From the minute Jordan Roederpopped up on my screen somehow I

(01:30):
just knew this was going to bea person I wasn't going to let
out of my world easily.
Thankfully, I think she feelsthe same way, or she faked it
really, really well, but weended up actually staying on the
phone or on the Zoom for aboutan hour after this interview was
over.
I just feel like I have met akindred spirit.

(01:52):
I just adore her.
Her book Moms Like Us comes outon May 6th.
She's with Little A, which isan Amazon imprint introduced to
me by the fabulous KatieKurtzman, who does her publicity
, and truly, I mean from theminute that our eyes locked.
Okay, so she's the origin storyof the colonoscopy meet cute.

(02:13):
That is now a part of my novelthat I think I might be working
on until I'm dead.
As Neely said last week, I'mcurrently working through the
trauma.
That is my first novel and likeI can't think of a better way
to say it.
But at any rate, Jordan pops upon my screen and there's just
something so lovely andwelcoming and grounding and fun

(02:36):
about her I don't know exactlyhow to put it into words.
Clearly the thing is, as a TVwriter and an author, just a
generally hilarious person.
This conversation was soenlightening and I just love it
so much when people come on.
You know, if you listened toseveral episodes ago I had
Michael Jammon on, who's also aTV writer, with Beavis and

(02:57):
Butthead and King of the Hilland a whole bunch of other
credits to his name and when youcan get people who are in
different spaces to really speakto not just the joys because of
course there are joys and thereare fun moments but of being in
that space, but also the kindof like oh God, where is this
going.
I just love that and that'swhat I've been trying to create

(03:20):
now for 117 episodes is like thereal real of book publishing.
And speaking of the real realof book publishing, get excited
because Jane Friedman, who isoften referred to as royalty in
the book writing space, will becoming on in just a few weeks.
So I will have a full plan ofattack there, because if I don't

(03:42):
, I will keep her for four hours.
I mean, she might not like letme do that, but I would try.
So I will have a full plan ofattack.
Jane, if you're listening, haveno worries, full plan of attack
is in place.
This conversation is absolutelyincredible.
So if you've ever wondered aboutthe TV writing life, how to
handle it when you get stuckwriting, what do you do if
you've created a character andnow all of a sudden she doesn't

(04:04):
fit?
Not how do you make her fit,but how do you figure out where
she fits, which is exactly whatJordan had to do with her
character, dawn, who I'm nowmildly obsessed with in Moms
Like Us.
I read this book every nightbefore I go to bed and I fall
asleep reading it, and it's beena long time since that happened
.
I normally fall asleep in frontof New Girl I mean, I think I'm

(04:24):
at my 15th or 16th run throughof the whole New Girl series.
Like it's gotten to the pointwhere I anticipate the lines
before they're even being said.
It's fabulous, but I normallyfall asleep to that.
And lately I've been fallingasleep to Moms Like Us, but not
in a bad way, because I cannotstop reading it until I fall
asleep.
It's just so good.

(04:45):
So I look forward to finishingit this weekend.
Everything about Jordan andwhere you can connect with her
and pre-order her book, whichagain comes out in May, is in
the episode notes.
Let's just get right into theconversation.
So, as I've said many times,when I do these conversations, I

(05:05):
don't put pressure on myself toread the book before the
conversation, because we don'treally talk about the book.
We talk about the writingprocess and the publishing
process and all those sorts ofthings typically.
Now, that being said, I like tonot be completely ignorant to

(05:27):
who people are and whatever, andwhat they've written about, and
so a standard practice for meis okay, just read the first
chapter.
The first time I got intotrouble with this was Emma Gray,
the Last Love Note.
Have you read that one yet?
I haven't, but I'm reading hernew book, pictures of you, yes.
So there I was with Emma's arca couple of years ago at oh dark

(05:47):
30 at night, reading it, and Iwas like I'll just read the
prologue and I couldn't stop.
Like I couldn't stop.
Okay, now I have that problemwith yours.
Oh, that's the nicest thing,it's really it's, it's really
it's, it's really a problem,jordan.
So when Katie messaged me and Ilove Katie so much, your

(06:09):
publicist me too.

Speaker 2 (06:10):
She's great.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
Just a doll.
So she and I see the cover andI'm like, okay, that sort of
looks like a pickleballsituation.
Like I can fully relate.
I haven't started playingpickleball yet.
I think I'm the last one.
I can't find anyone to playwith, but last night.
This is a crazy week, which Iknow people always say, but it
really is and it's only Tuesday.
So yesterday was nuts and Icrawled into bed at like 10, 15

(06:40):
PM, which is in.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
I don't function after seven.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
I had just looked at your Instagram and about peed my
pants over the post about whenyou find an estrogen patch on
the ground and you're not sureif it's yours or that's how you
know it's a great like midlifetrip with your best friend from
childhood.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
It's like don't know whose estrogen patch came off.
It's one of ours.
Let's check later.
I'll check later.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
Check it on my shoe shoe, just like to have because,
no for sure, like are you aside note, do you sometimes like
yesterday I?
I switch my patches onThursdays and Sundays, and so
yesterday I got out of theshower and I thought I don't
think I.
What day is it like I?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
know, yep, I do it Wednesdays and Saturdays.
Because you know why?
Because my, my friend, who's myneighbor, who's like my walking
buddy, courtney, will probablylisten to this.
She was doing it that day and Iwas like I should just do it
the same day as her because thatway, like, we can remind each
other.

Speaker 1 (07:37):
No, it's really like I even have it on my calendar
and I still I know I should putit on my calendar.
It's a situation.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
Well, it doesn't necessarily help.
You want to know somethingcrazy.
So of course this is soembarrassing.
But one night I had a littletoo much wine and I think it was
it must've been a Wednesday ora Saturday and I like woke up in
the middle of the night and Iwas like I didn't put on another
estrogen patch and I was likestill like half drunk.
So I put on an estrogen patchand like two days go by and I'm

(08:07):
going like a little crazy.
And then I like looked atmyself in the mirror Cause I had
two of them on myself in themirror.
I just don't even look anymore.
And I looked in the mirror Ihad two patches on three weeks
ago or something.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
I don't know.
Time has no meaning.
I did the exact same thing.
I did the exact same thing,jordan, like I went, I was like.
I was like I don't know why Iwould have been feeling my
stomach, but I was, and I waslike what the hell Like?
And then I didn't know whichone to take off.

Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, Cause which one ?
And what are the?

Speaker 1 (08:39):
like how do they work ?
I don't know, I don't know.
It doesn't even make any sense.
It doesn't make Like, just puta peach, that's a whole separate
converse.
Like I can't even.
But I thought, okay, she's oneof my people, Cause that post
did you what?

Speaker 2 (08:51):
did you get to the part in the book with the no, no
, no no, no, don't spoilanything, okay.

Speaker 1 (08:55):
Okay, so I go upstairs.
More of that where that camefrom Fabulous, see, I just knew,
like everything.
So I go upstairs 1015, switchmy patch and I go okay, I'm just
gonna read the prologue.
Well, that didn't work outterribly well for me.
So I want to talk to you aboutthat, because the prologue so
damn good.
First of all, it's a page and ahalf long, which is the best.

(09:17):
The best, because hello.
And then I start reading Okay,I'll be honest.
So you've got four, if not five.
Really Well, there are probablymore than that.
But in the beginning youintroduced the four main
characters and I'm going to sayplus Jillian, because I'm not
completely sure yet where shefits it.

(09:37):
Okay, you mean Eva, do you meanEva?
Oh well, I meant, is Jillianone of the four?
Okay, all right, so maybe I domean Eva but nevertheless, the
head of school.

Speaker 2 (09:48):
The head of school is Eva.
Yes, yes, yes, oh, I can seeher.
Listen, I can see this whole.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
did you ever watch New Girl?
Yes, this is my question foreverybody.
Anybody who's listening, who'slistened to more than one
episode, is like is she ever NewGirl?
So I have.
Do you remember the episode inNew Girl where Schmidt goes back
to his high school and hethinks that they're honoring him
with something and they're justlike shaking him down from?
They invite back all?

(10:14):
You don't have to remember it,but okay, that's the gymnasium
I'm picturing for this meeting.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
that goes on.
You know what, as a huge newgirl fan, you should have Tess
Sanchez on your podcast.
I'll I'll introduce you.
That's Max.
It's Max Greenfield's wife andshe has a new book out and she's
a fabulous woman and she's myneighbor and my friend and Max
is my buddy and and you shouldyou'll love her.

Speaker 1 (10:44):
She's great.
Well, I'm like literally I.
I talk about new girl so muchon this podcast and when,
because it's my, it's my happyplace.
I've seen the whole seriesprobably 12 times.
I just started it again theother night.
It just brings me such joy.
So that's the gymnasium, yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
I would love to introduce you.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Guys.
I'm going to get you tointroduce you.
I would absolutely love thatand I'd love to have her on.
That's the gymnasium I'mpicturing when I don't know why,
when they're having this firstmeeting.
I mean the multi, multi,multi-purpose room in which they
are.
Yes, so sometimes with booksthat have multiple whether it's

(11:27):
POVs or this doesn't really havemultiple I don't think of it as
multiple POVs because it's toldin the past tense right, I
think it's different point.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
It's each of their stories, so it's like each of
their points of view.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Yeah, okay, agreed, and they're not speaking I, I,
so you know how sometimes bookswill it's third person point of
view.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
Thank you, yes.
Okay, so I'm not crazy.
I mean, I am You're not crazy,okay.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
So sometimes that's hard, though, if the characters
aren't well differentiated.
It's hard, and I am here totell you that at 1115, I was
like I have to go to bed.
I was exhausted and I fullyunderstand who these four
characters are.
Like, you did such anincredible job.

(12:16):
Where were you in it?
Did you get through the soundbath?
No, I got to the invitation tothe sound bath.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Well, wait till you get to this.

Speaker 1 (12:25):
I can't even.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
The sound bath is where, like, all the secrets are
revealed.
So that's like that's, that'sthe really, that's the fun,
that's the juicy.
Yes, but it's reallyinteresting that you say that
about.
You know, that was something Iwas really concerned about is
differentiating those voices.
Yeah, and actually after myfirst draft, I was working with

(12:50):
my editor, carmen Johnson, andshe brought in another editor
because I need two editors RonitWagman, who I love, and I love
both of them.
We were like it.
It was like this dream team.
We had so much fun together.
Yeah, it was like this sharingcircle on zoom where we told
each other things that, like wedon't tell anyone.

(13:11):
It was really fun.
Um and um, after that firstdraft, the character, um, who is
now dawn, who is like a lifecoach and like aggressively
optimistic, um, she was.
They were saying we should getrid of that character because

(13:31):
she wasn't popping and shedidn't really have a point of
view, and not just a point ofview, but she didn't have like
her own story.
She was very like, kind of likethings were happening to her
and she wasn't being active andI was like I don't want to get
rid of her.
I know I can find it and inthat second draft it was killing

(13:55):
me.
I was trying to figure out,like, what is her thing, what is
this thing?
And there were two things thatI found.
One was an experience with afriend of mine who probably will
be really mad if she ever hearsthis.
But um, that she um, did notget into the tennis club and she
was very upset about it and um,and it just brought in this

(14:22):
idea of like, oh, this issomething, obviously this is
rich people problems, but youknow, what does it?
What does it mean for her?
What is what does this tennisclub mean?
This is coming to her husband'sand canceled.
She's coming back to thiscommunity.
This is the, the, the, the goldstar, the gold.

(14:43):
This is being accepted backinto your community to get into
this.
So it's like, and if you can't,what do you do to get in?
So that became her story andthen that also informed the
Heather story who you know itwas responsible for canceling

(15:04):
her husband Exactly.
So it kind of it broughteverything back together and and
it was like I remember that dayafter I heard that story from
my friend about the tennis club,I emailed them and I was like
we're not getting rid of thischaracter, and here's why.
And then I found all this otherstuff about her as I was

(15:25):
writing, which was really fun,about like how this is a woman
who has, like always beenlooking for her people and just
couldn't find them for onereason or another.
Like you know, she was I'mactually pitching the tv
adaptation of the book.
Now, yeah, I was talking abouthow like she's, I was describing

(15:45):
her as a character and likegoing back to like the basics
and I was like she, she is thatgirl who had the only single in
the sorority and it wasn't bychoice, you know like she's just
like, and no matter how hardshe tries to find her people,
somehow there's just somethingabout her that is like slightly

(16:05):
off putting.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, and I, you know , um, I, I saw sign.
I don't remember if I saw itfirst or I thought at first, but
I know one of the comparison.
You know, when you say it'sthis meets this, which authors
do a lot the um, liars, um, biglittle lies, big little lies,
thank you.
I want to say pretty liars club.
I'm like that is not it Okay,big little lies, big little lies
, thank you.
I want to say pretty liars club.
I'm like that is not it Okay,big little lies.

(16:27):
That's what was in my head.
It's not, as I don't yet see it, as dark as that sort of, but
that was the.
I can absolutely see thisplaying out on a screen.
And that was the vision that Ihad, not the vision like it's my
vision, but in my head that Ihad not the vision, like it's my
vision, but in my head that waswhat I saw.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well, and the way I'm kind of I position it and the
way I think about it as a showand and as I was writing, it is
um, is is more tonally like likebad, uh, bad sisters, if you've
seen it, um, so, cause thatreally has like that edge and
sense of humor and the satirebut Big Little Lies was, you
know, is kind of, I mean, I justlove that show.
They're probably coming outwith a third season so, you know

(17:15):
, hopefully there's room forboth of these shows.
I think mine is definitely.
You know I referenced alsoWhite Lotus just because I think
that show is so bonkers andirreverent and like crazy the
most recent episode.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Yes, okay, I don't want to give anything away, but
like the scene when the one guyhis name I can't remember, rick
goes to meet his old friend inthe hotel and the friend tells
him what he's been up to.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
I mean, we were just talking about it.
This morning I was walking dogswith my friends and we were
like I was just sitting there,like my jaw never drops anymore,
Like I am not shocked byanything and I was just like
what is?

Speaker 1 (18:00):
happening.
And then I start to think andyou probably do too, because
you're a tv writer who I'mimagining the writer like who
came up with this?

Speaker 2 (18:12):
idea.
Mike White, it's all Mike White.
He has no writer's room, it'sjust Mike White like, oh, my
white in a room with his withhimself brilliant brain.
Yes, he is.
He's so like I would kill tomeet.
Mike white is my hero like that.

Speaker 1 (18:28):
It's next, it's truly next level.
I know that's a really overusedterm I couldn't like.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
I'm like who comes up with this?
This is so crazy and with eachlike, with each line that came
out of his mouth, it got crazierand crazier.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
It was outrageous.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
And the other actor, I'm forgetting his name, he was
just watching, like.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
But you know what I think he was watching, the way
we were watching, it's just.
I mean, if they did that in onetake, great.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
But to have to kind of keep that level of like, yeah
, yeah, so, and it wasinteresting because so when it
started and they started thescene, so sam rockwell and um uh
, I'm forgetting the otheractor's name, but he's so good
um, and that let's just blameperimenopause I can't remember
my kids names.
So right for sure anybody'slistening to this.

(19:31):
Please don't be offended if Idon't remember your name, um and
uh, but sam rockwell.
I remember I was watching itand I was like these guys could
switch parts.
I'm a huge sam rockwell fan.
I'm like these guys couldswitch parts.
I'm a huge Sam Rockwell fan.
I'm like these guys couldswitch parts and Sam could
totally play that part and theother actor could play this part
.
But when and I was like it's soweird that Sam would take a

(19:54):
role playing such a straightcharacter, and then he goes, he
starts talking because also youhear like chamomile tea, and
you're like this is gonna bepretty bland, like this is gonna
be easy peasy, and then it justgoes, so left I mean, I know,

(20:16):
look at us, we're still.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
And I mean, mike, what if you're mike white?
You're just, and this is thedream.
Well, I don't want to putmyself in Mike White's brain,
but it's like as if I were a TVwriter and I'm not, but you are.
Is this not the dream thatpeople are having this sort of a
conversation?

Speaker 2 (20:48):
like that conversation between the women
talking about you know, wait,did you vote for Trump?
And she's like drink.
You know, like, and it just wassuch a you know the nuance of
like.
I know, oh, you go to church.
Is that weird.
Do you do this, do you do that?
Like this coastal versus.
You know, texas parker posey isoh, lorazepam.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
And oh my god, what award would she be up for in
that?
What?
What awards?
Emmy, golden globe, all of them?

Speaker 2 (21:17):
she should just take all the things.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
That is, it is okay.
All right back to moms like ustalk, talk about this forever.
It's so good, let's just haveour own show where we debunk
like not debunk but debrief,that's the word, I think.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
Mike Waite would like that.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
I think so we should pitch it.
All right, we'll do that next.
Write it down, or I'm going toforget because, yes, I know, I
know.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
That happened to me.
On my podcast with Zibi lastweek, we came up with this great
idea for me to write a book ofessays about motherhood, and
then we both forgot.
And then, in like a fever dream, I woke up two days later and I
emailed her and I was like thisis what it was.
And she was like oh yes, you'reright.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Now do you incorporate?
Because what I want to ask youabout with moms like us is where
in the hell did this?
I mean, it's so relatablebecause I don't live in LA but I
have friends who live in, likemy.
One of my best friends lives inSilicon Valley and I certainly
see that kind of competitiveone-upsmanship and the private
schools and the who are youfriends with and all those sorts
of things going on.
Yeah, and it, I run, I run forthe hills Like I run fast, but
so we under we, even if we don'tlive in it.
I think it's quite relatablebecause, as women, you know,

(22:40):
we're just trying to find ourplace sometimes and and figure
out where we belong.
But where did it times?
And figure out where we belong,but where did it come from?
A and B?
Do you ever find yourself usingstories like the Locked in a
Box?
Do those make their way in?
Because sometimes I feel likethat stuff I personally could

(23:02):
not make up.
If I tried, I had to have myfirst.
I mean, I can't believe I'msaying this live, but I had to
have my first colonoscopy acouple of weeks ago.
Okay, Jordan, myanesthesiologist was so cute and
I'm a single person and he's asingle person because I did, in
fact, confirm it with my nurse,who I'm now Instagram friends

(23:25):
with, and I thought under nocircumstances could I make this
up Like here I am, by the way,this is the best meet cute.

Speaker 2 (23:35):
This is the best meet cute I've ever heard.

Speaker 1 (23:38):
You have to write.
I don't think that he and I areever going to meet again in
real life Like he's seen theworst.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
I mean, come on, I mean well but at least that's
the thing, like it only can getbetter from there, right.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
He's seen it all.
I mean, you're not wrong, but II'm working on my first novel
and it's a scene now because Ithought, like my, my, my main
character is a single woman, anewly newly divorced woman, and
she's you know, and so whatbetter place to find someone who
you really think is cute thanwhen you're have you know ass

(24:12):
out in the like.
If you can believe this, I didyou ever watch the show happy
endings of course, I thoughtthat my friend was an ep on it.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Really, yeah, okay, so that's another of my standbys
.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
Your life is fun.
So do you remember the scenewhen I'm forgetting her name
because perimenopause, but she'sthe cute young, I mean, they're
all cute, but if you say hername I'm going to know it.
Brunette, I don't rememberanything either.
Okay, she's got a podium andshe's giving a speech and the
podium starts to fall forwardand she goes I'm going down or

(24:46):
going down, okay.
So when he put my Eliza,Deschkoop?

Speaker 2 (24:51):
no, that's not it.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
No, no, no, Uh, but right, I'm thinking of her name,
penny.
On the show.
Her character's name is Penny,and so when the anesthesiologist
put the drug in my IV so that Iwould go to sleep, you know, I
couldn't stop looking at him.
Sorry, oh my God, it was thebest ever, holy cow, was it ever
good?
And then I just go, I'm going,it's happening.

(25:16):
That's the last thing I saidJordan before I was out.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
I looked right in his eyes and I said I'm going, it's
happening by the way, if EmilyHenry pitched a novel with this
is the meet cute, like, insteadof like book lovers, it's like
colonoscopy lovers or somethinglike that, Like a hundred
percent, this would be abestseller and it would be on
every shelf and you should bethe next Emily Henry, and it

(25:44):
should be like you know love inthe colon, you know loving,
loving, loving the colon, colon,colon, colon romance.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Different meanings to different people, depending on
how you hear it.
I can just see it now Like my.

Speaker 2 (25:57):
I feel like my first podcast would be call her daddy,
you know, cause that makessense, like the whole thing
anyway, from your lips to theuniverse's ears, because holy
shit, but literally holy shit,this is gonna I'm gonna be doing
this for the next like threedays is trying to think about
like how do we make a romanticcomedy title with colon, the

(26:17):
word colon in it, like with theword colon in it, colon, love,
colon, colon.
Uh yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (26:27):
Like cologne.
Like cologne like love and likeI don't know.
We're going to figure it out.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Love and colonoscopy.
Love and love and colonoscopy,I don't know no.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Stick with it.
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (26:40):
Whoever gets a note, I'm going to work on it.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
We're going to work on it and then let me know what
you need so we can go back andforth.
Okay, back to you, because thisis the you show here today.
So how did this come?
How did this all come together?
Because your first two bookswere in 06 and 07.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yes, and they were young, ya, right, yeah, young
adult.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
So how did you?
Were you?
I just want to know all thethings like were you writing?
For?
I talked to Michael Jammon acouple of months ago.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
I listened to that one.
I love him, he's wonderful andit was really fun to.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
That was the first time, so this is the second time
and I'm so excited that I getto kind of hear you know how do
you segue between TV writing andbook writing and why is it not
as easy as everyone thinks?
Because I'm just going to putit out there Anybody who's
listening a lot of people who'slistening, who are listening are
probably thinking oh, you know,you know, schmidt, right, I

(27:37):
mean, so why can't you just butit doesn't work like that it
doesn't work like that, but it'salso, I mean, longer
conversation and a much moreboring conversation is how the
film and TV industry is justshrinking and, like every writer
I know, aside from like five,are out of work.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
So I'll start at the beginning with the book.
Okay, which is this?
So I've been writing for TV andfilm for many years.
After I wrote my first, twonovels were published why?
I adapted the second one, campRules for Paramount into a
feature.
That never got made but I gotpaid, so it was good I get.
I've really like made a careerfor myself in film and

(28:22):
television, writing things thatpeople love but never make.
So that's been.
I'm really proud of that.
Um, and one day they're gonnamake something you should be.
Um, yes, exactly, I mean I'mjust happy to have a career, but
one day I'd love to seesomething original get made.
Um, I have been like on staffof shows, like I worked on

(28:44):
American Housewife for ABC.
I worked on this show, um,watchful Eye for uh, Freeform,
um, and that was really fun.
I produced my episodes like forme, that like being on set and
actually like getting to workwith everybody and watch what

(29:04):
was just in your head come alive.
That to me.
Me is everything Like.
I cannot wait to get back onset, and I have unfortunately no
plans to do that anytime soon,but hopefully, um, you never
know.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
Maybe this colonoscopy love thing will work
, and then I can have youproduce it Perfect, just a
thought, and we can adapt ittogether.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Right, package it up.
We'll call Max Greenfield.
We'll get it all together.
Yes, max Greenfield would begreat for the colonoscopy.
Oh my God.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
For the anesthesiologist Perfect Done
and done.
I would like to be played, butI have to think about that.
Who would I like?
Okay, back to you.
Back to you.
Have to think about that.
Who would I like?

Speaker 2 (29:45):
Okay, back to you, back to you.
Okay, so, um.
So here's where the bookinspiration started Um, sixth
grade.
When my daughter was in sixthgrade, okay, um, uh, my daughter
is neurodiverse, which is likekind of a fancy way of saying
she has dyslexia and ADHD.
She and I was very concernedabout trying to get her into

(30:11):
private school.
There was a lot of, you know,competition and for her it was
really important because Ineeded her to be in a school
that was a she's a really cool,regular, you know kid who can
learn with traditionally butneeds help, needs like.
So I needed to find likeexactly the right school and

(30:32):
then whatever, and I was veryfrustrated with the
administration and some of theteachers at my daughter's school
and I went to back to schoolnight and just some of the
parents who spoke and who wereso involved and made all of us
who weren't quite as involvedfeel like shit.
And, by the way, that's also onme that I felt guilt.

(30:56):
You know that I let myself feelthat way.
Obviously I go to therapy, butanyway.
So I woke up the next morningand I just I was like I decided
to take like each of the womenthat were like driving me a bit
nuts or I was angry at or I wasfrustrated by, and I tried to

(31:17):
like see things from theirperspective.
And then I tried to like everynegative thought that I had I
amped up by like a hundred andthen tried to find something to
like about each of thesecharacters.
So that was where it started,and it started as just like
throwing down all this stuff andthen I just left it.

(31:39):
And I left it for months andthen, and once in a while I'd go
back to it and I'd think aboutit and then I just like would
leave it.
And I was working on a show atthe time and I was doing other
things, and then the writer'sstrike happened and my book
agent texted me and I happenedto be on our annual like camping

(32:01):
trip in Santa Barbara with theschool and and which is where
the prologue happens and the youknow, the murder happens.
And my book agent text me.
He's like writer's strike,great time to write a novel.
And I was like well, for me Ihad about like 40 pages.

(32:21):
I didn't know how it was goingto end.
I hadn't written a novel in along time and I just said you
got to sell it off of a partial,because I'm not going to finish
it on my own, I just know mybandwidth.
And he's like, well, you're notgoing to get a ton of money,
and I'm like, I know that, butit's more than I'm making on
strike, so, true.

(32:43):
So, and then he's like, andyou'll have the rights and
you'll sell it into as a TV show.
So, anyway, I met my editor.
He introduced me to my editor,carmen Johnson, and we had the
loveliest chat and she reallyunderstood, um, what I was going
for.

(33:03):
And she's with little a she'swith little a, that's right.
And um, I hadn't heard oflittle a.
I didn't know.
You know, I I'm not real, Iwasn't really educated and you
know who was publishing what.
But it was funny because shewas the only one I talked to and
she really liked the idea andwe, you know, her suggestions
and ideas were great.
I did a synopsis of where I sawthe book going and again it was

(33:29):
like such imposter syndrome.
It was like, yeah, and thenthis happens and this happens.
And I was like I'll figure thatout later.
And it was funny because likeshe was kind of selling me on
little A, like she's like, yeah,you know, and then you know
we're Amazon, so we do a reallybig, like you know, marketing

(33:49):
push like online.
And and I was like, oh, you're,you're, you're selling me.
Like no, you can, you can, youcan have it.
I'm in, yeah, I'm like sure,yeah, let's just, let's just do
it, let's just do it.
So by by the time the craziestpart was by the time we like
actually closed the deal,because these contracts take

(34:10):
forever, not that it's a hugecontract, it's just that takes
forever.
By the time it literally mycontract closed the day after
the strike ended.
So I'm like I need to get a joblike a paying like TV film job
and instead I need to get a joblike a paying like TV film job
and instead I have to write a250 page novel.
And but it's fine because, as Iwas saying, the Hollywood world

(34:36):
, the TV and film world, hascontracted so majorly since,
like the boom of all thestreaming stuff and everything
was going and there was so much,and then, like since the strike
, it's just been like tricklingin and the only thing selling
it's like has like KimKardashian or you know, or it's

(34:57):
Ryan Murphy or it's, you know,shonda Rhimes.
It's just it's been very, verychallenging to sell something.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
Well, and I think you know it's so interesting to me
when I talk to different peoplehow much the book industry, the
TV industry and the musicindustry are incredibly similar.
And they're also incrediblysimilar Well, in many ways, but
one of them is the outsideperspective of how things work

(35:26):
in the space.
So, whether you're talking abouta traditional publisher or in
the music industry, it would begetting signed with like RCA or
Capitol Records, or, as opposedto a smaller label, or just
being an indie musician.
And then in the TV writer space, I mean so many and I'm putting
air quotes around this butsuccessful actors and et cetera

(35:49):
are ending up forming their owncompanies so that they can do
their own things, but they'renot funding.
Some of them are self-fundingand others of them are
crowdfunding.
I mean, there's just all thesedifferent and new ways and I
think they're happening fasterthan people can get their brain
around it.
But this idea that any of us inthis space just comes up with a

(36:09):
brilliant idea or even a stupididea and it just goes is just
incorrect.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's.
And you know, I think back inthe day, even 10, 15 years ago,
like the first TV thing that Isold, I did not have a sample.
I had this idea for an hourlong, dramedy, kind of based on
not my own experience butinspired by an experience when

(36:37):
my grandmother passed away andit was called the Eulogist and I
described it as Ally McBealmeets Six Feet Under.
That also dates it a little bit.
That tells you how long ago itwas.
So this must have been like 10,12 years ago.
I didn't have a sample.
I pitched this and like I justsell it in the room to NBC and,

(36:59):
and you know, I wrote it anddidn't end up getting made again
part of my, my um, my brand Umand she's a great writer Doesn't
get anything made.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
And does that frustrate you?
What's your?
I'm going to segue a little bit, but does it frustrate you when
other people, who maybe youperceive as not having put in
their time, so to speak, get anopportunity?
Or do you just understand?
That's just, there's a lot ofluck, there's a lot of timing,

(37:37):
right, it's not?

Speaker 2 (37:39):
There is a lot of luck and there's a lot of timing
.
I'm not going to say whichmovie, but there was a movie
that came out on streamingrecently.
That was a comedy that was sobad.
Okay, I watched it with my kids, who are not like critics, you
know, tell me what it is when westop recording.
But it was, it was.

(37:59):
It was like I mean, I was likeshocked and I was like I looked
at my husband, cause wesometimes work together, he's a
producer and I said why can'tthey make our bad comedies?
Like, why do they have to maketheir bad comedies?
Yeah, I can write a bad comedy.
I can write a mediocre feature.

(38:20):
Like I write that, um, so uh,yeah, that.
So, yeah, I mean, I think thegoal is just to have my mediocre
writing made.
But no, I will also say myfriend, emily Fox, who I just
love on so many levels and Ireally admire.
She's an amazing writer and shealso hired me on the Watchful

(38:42):
Eye.
She was the showrunner.
We've been friends for manyyears.
Um, she often says and I want togive her credit because I think
it's so, it's so funny and Ithink it's so true is like when
she talks about something thatshe doesn't think is very well
written, she'll say like she'slike it's succession if it was

(39:05):
written in crayon, and I love it, I love when she does and she
does it with like a lot ofdifferent shows and and, um,
she's just, she's, she's thebest.
You kind of know exactly whatshe means.
Yes, oh, you know right, oh, Iget it.
I get it, yeah, but I stayedher, so she read like early

(39:27):
drafts of my novel.
She's one of those people Isend everything to and she
always gives me great notes andshe's so warm and wonderful and
thoughtful in the way she sharesthose notes and and and I I
always say to her I'm like it's,you know, it's Big Little Lies
written in crayon or it's BadMoms, I mean, it's a Bad Sisters

(39:49):
, yeah, like you know so, andshe's like Jordan, it's not, you
know, we need those people.
Yes, yes, yes yes.

Speaker 1 (39:59):
And I think like I mean okay, let's talk about
blurbs for a second, becausethis is a big, this is a big
discussion point as of late,because somebody who was Simon
and Schuster who came out andsaid we're not going to force
our authors to get blurbsanymore.
Oh yeah, good morning.

(40:26):
Like I can't even can't findwords because I just said Amy
Polar and so I just love AmyPolar.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
She's the best, she's a great human, she's a great
actress, she's a great producer.
So I I met her first because Ihad a project with her that was
based on my cousin.
It was called Slutty Aunt JillAgain another show that was very

(40:58):
well received and never made.
And never made sure and nevermade.
And we stayed friendly.
And then it turned out our kidsended up in the same grade, at
the same school, okay, and so wethen became mom friends on top
of having worked together.
And she was so menschy, likewhen I reached out to her and I

(41:21):
just said I have this new novel,she was like, oh my God,
congratulations, it's so amazing.
And she was like, of courseI'll blurb it, of course I have
this new novel.
She was like, oh my God,congratulations, it's so amazing
.
And she was like, of courseI'll blurb it, of course I'll
read it.
And you know, she was just,she's just an incredible person.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Well, that's why when I say and I haven't met her,
you know I, it's on my dreamlist but when I say I just love
her, I mean a she makes me laughharder than I mean my God with
between her and Tina Fey, and Idon't even know what to do.
But from what I glean, she's areally good person and a good

(41:56):
human and I think that thatusurps pretty much everything in
my world at this point.
If you're just a good personand a good human, it's going to
be fine.
But what I wanted to ask youabout is you know, do you feel
being in the space that you'rein?
Do you feel any kind of anadditional sort of pressure
because you're able to getblurbs by people like Amy
Poehler and you are connected tosome of the people you're?

(42:19):
Or do you think you've justbecome?
And I and I ask it because Ithink from the outside again,
I'm always trying to sort of Ihate this phrase, I'm so sick,
but pull back the curtain onwhat is it really like?
So often the authors with whomI work will say something and
understandably say somethinglike well, of course she's going

(42:40):
to make that work, like she'sentrenched in that.
And Amy.
You know, amy blurbed it andblah, blah, blah, and then you.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
I find that sometimes that's frustrating for the
author, but I don't want to putwords in your mouth, so no, I
think 10 years ago, this bookprobably would have been a slam
dunk, you know, like, like interms of selling it as a tv show
or whatever, and you package itup and you do all the things

(43:13):
Now, post Strike, it is socompetitive and it is so crazy
and like, the buyers are sospecific about what they want
and there are so many producersand there's an every and I mean
with with a show like this.
Like when I was starting thisand I was talking to you know,
my managers and my agent and wewere kind of strategizing how do
we go out with this book in youknow the smartest way.

(43:34):
And I immediately go to theplace of like, we have five
awesome roles for women in theirlike roles early to mid forties
to mid fifties.
And, by the way, like, for me,I'm like, the older the better
we can have.
You know, I didn't have I for,for I didn't have my first kid

(43:57):
till I was 37 or something.
So I mean I, you know, and andI have lots of friends who are
older than me, I have friendswho are annoying and younger
than me, um, like I was withtoday, but but I, I, I think.
So I wanted to go to like let'sget four women and make it like

(44:18):
an undeniable package and doall this stuff.
But it's not, it's not that easy.
I think it used to be and Ithink if you maybe are that
person or you're with HelloSunshine or you're with you know
then.
But but there's so muchpolitics, cause it's like maybe
this actress doesn't want towork with this actress and or

(44:39):
maybe this one wants to be theproducer, or they all want to
produce, which in my mind I'mlike great, let's all produce,
let's all do it.
And then it's like you know, no, jordan, you can't just like
yeah, not, everything is like aco-production and everyone can
produce and everybody can.
So there is.
So I find my managers likeconstantly being like let's slow

(45:00):
your roll, because I'm like Ican send this to my you know, I
had a project with Sharon Horgan, who's my friend, who I love,
who's amazing, and she did BadSisters and I can send it to her
and I can do this and I can dothat, and they're like let's
slow down.
There is a way of doing things.
And so you know, we're kind ofgoing slowly in that right now,

(45:22):
but I'm also I have never beenaccused of being patient- oh,
forget about it.
Forget it.

Speaker 1 (45:31):
And then as I'm perimenopause and I'm like it's
perimenopause, I don't yeah,yeah, I'm like I don't have time
, I'm any minute now, right, Iany second, like God only knows
Right, and I vacillate betweenshould I just go balls to the
wall because it could all end infive minutes, or should I be go
?
Balls to the wall because itcould all end in five minutes,

(45:53):
or should I be, I don't know.
But I also wanted how manypatches.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
I put on that week.
But I also, you know, what'sinteresting right now also is
like we're in this moment where,like leaning in is kind of like
feels old school now and nowit's like radical truth, telling
, like that is what we're.
It's like miranda, july, thetell, you know the mother load,
like all this stuff is.

(46:16):
So it's all about like no, Ifucking hate it.
Sorry I might not be no, swearaway, fucking say it all.
I hated being, you know, amother of a newborn and I I had
postpartum and I had this and Inever liked it.
And you know, a mother of anewborn and I had postpartum and
I had this and I never liked it.
And you know what I didn't likebeing pregnant and I didn't.
You know like and, and you know, and everyone is just being

(46:38):
more honest, radically honest,radically honest about who you
are.
Yes, who you are frustrations asa woman, as a mother, as trying
to do it all or trying to be OKwith, you know, not having a
job outside the house and like.
What does that look like?
You know, how do I get?

(46:58):
You know, eve Rodsky talksabout this so much and is such
an amazing advocate for women inevery way, but especially for
you know, in Fair Play andUnicorn Space she talks about
this and so like I feel likethis book is trying to taps into

(47:19):
that a little bit, because-yeah, and you know what you do.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
That I think is so interesting and I'm curious if
it was intentional or if it'sjust your writing style, but I
really like it is.
There's this fourth wallbreaking thing that it feels
like is happening a lot whereit's so interesting.
I don't know well clearly howto describe it, but I underlined
this one.
This one line is on page 14,where you were talking about um,

(47:45):
somebody was uh, if she heardabout one more mom sneaking
samples of Ozempic, she wasgoing to scream into her down
alternative pillow.
And then the next line, whichis its own paragraph, says what
she had allergies.
So it's almost like youanticipate what a viewer or a
reader might be thinking and youaddress it and then you go back

(48:09):
to the story.
It's really cool.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, it's like I mean becauseI think that what I really
wanted to show was layers ofeach woman.
Yes, and that was.
And again, like I really wantedto write women like the bad
version, like the like, takeeverything negative that I have

(48:33):
ever thought.
And I have a lot of negativethoughts, not that I act on them
and I don't really think I'm abad person Maybe I am but I have
to say I feel so much guilt andshame all the time for my bad
thoughts.
And then I read something likeFleischman is in trouble, and
I'm like I feel less alonebecause I'm like, oh, someone

(48:54):
else has, someone else has thiscrazy reaction, someone else has
this thought, someone elsefeels trapped or alone or you
know, or just hates this personfor no reason or a reason that I
can understand, and sometimesyou don't want to analyze.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
We're all in therapy, right?
There's moments when it's likewhy do you feel that way, liz?
What is that?
Let's go back to your innerchild and try to awaken.
Okay, fine, but sometimes Ijust don't.
It's like why don't?
Well, why don't you is?
Are they your mirror?
I don't care, I just don't.
I don't.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yeah, the funniest thing to me was so I sent in not
an early draft but a prettylike a you know not the final
draft, to my parents and theyboth started reading.
They were so excited to read it.
They're very supportive andthey both called me
independently and they were likebecause there is a mom in the

(49:48):
book who sells her daughter'sADHD pill Right, Because they're
struggling financially, Alice,right, she sells it to Alice.
Yes, that's right.
Who, by the way, is completelybased on my friend, alyssa
Bradenburg, who I love, and sheknows that and it's like the one
Alice is like, the onecharacter who, like she's just

(50:11):
like a small character thateveryone likes, okay, um and uh,
she loves when I tell peoplethat I based a character on her.
And she did do that thing to meat a back to school night once
where I walked in and she shookher empty glass at me and I was
like I got you girl and broughther another glass of wine.

(50:31):
I love it.
I love it.
But we were talking about oh,so my parents called me.
They had just started readingit and they called me separately
.
Like my mom was like Jordan, Ineed to talk to you.
I just want to make sure thatyou understand that it is

(50:52):
illegal to sell your daughter'sADHD pills and I really hope
that you're not doing that.
I was like mom, mom, it'sfiction and she's like OK, but I
just want to make sure.
And mom, I didn't do it, justwant to make sure.

(51:13):
And mom, I didn't do it.
And then, and then, like a daylater, my dad is like I was very
disappointed to read about thecharacter who is selling her
daughter's ADHD pills and I justthat's great want to say I
would be really disappointed ifyou were doing that.
And I was like dad, I alreadyhad this conversation with mom.
It's fiction.
I did not sell the pills.

(51:33):
Believe me, I thought about it,I you know, in like during the
strike and whatever, like when Ineeded some extra money.
Yes, I thought about it, but Idid not, did not act on it,
right and um, and then mythere's you haven't gotten to
this, but there is a veryexplicit sex scene in a minivan,

(51:55):
in the garage of a Trader Joe's, and my dad was like have you
done that?
Well, he's like, my husband'sname is Guy.
He's like did Guy read this?
Is he okay with that?
You did that and I'm like Dad,dad, I didn't have do this it's
not a memoir exactly.

(52:18):
I'm like what part of this doyou think like?
When do you think I?

Speaker 1 (52:21):
have time to do that.
I gotta cancel the whole restof my day now because just with
what you've said, I'm like Igotta get to the traitor joe
scene scene.
I got to get to the-.
Oh, my God.
Well you're like it's.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
That next chapter is like a lot of bombs get dropped
at the-.
Yeah, I got to get to the soundbath.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
The sound bath is which is such, by the way, a
perfect, it's such a.
I mean you use the word LA, butit's like such an LA thing,
it's such a Scottsdale thing,it's such an insert, you know,
it's such like a real housewivesthing, like we're going to have
a.
Please come over.
This is.

(53:02):
You know, I've just spent$15,000 to have my outdoors
decorated so that we can all lieon these, you know, phallic
shaped rafts and chant such andsuch, and I mean it's just, it's
, it's so good.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Well, you're gonna, you're gonna have fun reading it
.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
It's okay, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Well, the the the funny thing is that there was a
sound bath and, um, in real lifethere was a sound bath.
It was a party book party, ofcourse, and it was at my
friend's house.
It was really fun and none ofthese things happened there, but
it did inspire this and myfriend was actually the one who

(53:42):
she does sound baths and she'samazing.
But at the end of it and Ithink this, I put this in the
book, I can't even remember atthis point at the end of the
sound bath, all the women, oureyes were closed, we all started
like howling and the goldenretriever of the woman whose

(54:02):
house it was was in the otherroom and it was a female golden
retriever and she starts howlingwith us.
My God, I knew you were goingto say that With us and I was
like I'm pretty sure that madeit in the book.
I can't, I know I wrote it.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
I'll let you know.
I'll let you know.
Yeah, let me know.
But that's, how could that notmake?
That's one of those things thatI think as right, like I would
park that away and just go.
That's got to be.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Like you know, many, many months ago I was in line at
Starbucks, as we do, as ithappens.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
And I was with one of my kids and I think one of my
sons, I don't who knows and Ithey, they moved the, the, the
ordering window.
So it used to be that you driveway up in the queue and then
would be the ordering window andthen you'd drive up to the
pickup window.
Well, they moved the orderingwindow back by.
I want to say 20 feet, maybe 30feet.

(54:57):
I'm not a good judge ofdistance and I wasn't paying
attention.
I was, you know, I was checkingtexts and just easing my way up
, assuming that the window waswhere the window has always been
Right.
So I go past it and my son's,like you missed the window.
So I have to put the car inreverse and it's one of those
windows where they can see you,yeah, you know.

(55:19):
And so I'm like, hi, I'm sureyou just saw me bypass.
And the girl was just like asthough this had been happening
all day and she was completelyover it.
But I just thought this isgoing, this is going in the book
Totally, this is going in thebook.
Like I have to put in myreverse lights.
Everyone behind me had to backup and you're that person and I

(55:40):
was that person.
Yeah, and you know, I can justimagine that this girl, this
sweet 17 year old barista, islooking through her camera at me
, just driving right past as I'mtyping something on my phone,
like you know it.
Just, oh my God.
All right, I have two morequestions.
I mean I could have 30 morequestions.
We may have to do part two, butmy first one is two editors.

(56:05):
I'm curious how that worked,and were they working together,
or was it like a triad?
How do you, how did younavigate, one having one thought
and one having another thought?
Did that happen?

Speaker 2 (56:19):
Well they were, they're so good and I think they
work together all the time.
So I think it was like, I thinkthat like it was more, one of
them did more, like Ronit wasmore micro and kind of like you
know, more line edits maybe,yeah, more line editing, and
Carmen then would kind of likeweigh in on, like bigger, bigger

(56:43):
, but we all we would talk as agroup about you know, global
issues with the first draftBecause, again, she had never
she'd seen 40 pages and you knowa five page synopsis and
suddenly I'm sending a 200 page.
You know, tome over.
But, you know, unlike Hollywoodand the development process,

(57:06):
which is so dysfunctional, theyworked so beautifully together
so that I was always given, Ialways felt like they were
completely aligned on everything.
There was never and I didn'treally talk to one without the
other we emailed all together.
There was never a feeling thatthey disagreed or that they

(57:29):
hadn't got something ahead oftime, whereas, like in hollywood
, you know, you talk to yourproducer who sends you in one
direction, and then you go tothe studio who sends you in a
different direction, right, andthen you try to do both of those
things.
And then you go to the networkwho says we wanted the first
thing that has been developedout.

(57:50):
So it was a really wonderful soit's truly collaborative and
collaborative, seamless,respectful, creative.
It was an absolute dream, unlikeso many of my Hollywood
experiences.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Well, I mean, I'm here for the dream and I love
that when collaboration can beproductive as opposed to well.
I asked this person and theysaid to take out scene five.
And then I asked this personand they said, no, definitely
leave scene five, but take outscene 12.
And then I talked to thisperson and it's you're like
what's the right answer?

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Right, well, and I'll tell you two things that we
disagreed upon.
There were two big things.
So sound bath, uh, no, not thesound.
Everyone loved the sound bath.
Sound bath was always golden.
Two things one was the ending.
I had a different ending.
I'm not spoiling it, but I hadhad a different ending, which is

(58:51):
how I imagine the end of thefirst season of the show.
And it's a cliffhanger.
And Carmen was like, my editorwas like, and my agent, richard,
said you, this is a novel, nota show, so you can't end it like
and we're not planningnecessarily a sequel, so you

(59:15):
can't end it with this bigcliffhanger, yeah.
And I was like, of course I can, why can't I?
And they won that.
And I think I think the endingis a little like wah, wah, but
fine, um, I mean it.
It just wrapped up, it's fine.
Yeah, like got a little bowwhich, like I like things a

(59:37):
little messier, but whatever,yeah, um, so the first season
ending will be a hugecliffhanger.
Heard it here first heard it.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
I'm here for the other thing that we disagreed on
was the title.
Okay, I love this.
So I had actually my husbandhad this idea and I loved it,
and then I was like I was likedetermined to keep it.
I wanted to call the book MilkMothers.
I'd Like to.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Kill.
Oh my God, I don't know how youlet.
I mean, I'm fine with moms likeus, but I don't know how you
let go of that.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
So I told Carmen, thinking like slam dunk, and she
was like, ha ha ha, that's cute.
And I was like I mean, it's notcute, it's genius, it's great,
it's great and like it's a newterm, we're coining a new term.
And she's like, yeah, butpeople could see that as like

(01:00:33):
espousing violence to women andlike if you get, you know, if
you have women who feel like itthreatens them or you know,
which I understand.
I mean, to me it was never likeI want to actually like
literally kill a woman.

Speaker 1 (01:00:49):
It's like.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
I want to kill her.
She drives me nuts, Like, but Iunderstand, you know that that
is an issue.
So then it was like.
It was like maybe we writemaybe it's milk M-I-L-C, and
it's like mothers, I'd like tocancel.
And then I was like, oh, nowI'm just like ruining it, yeah,

(01:01:13):
Like.
And then it was like oh, nowI'm just like ruining it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Um, yeah, uh like, and then it was like mothers I'd
like to kick.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
And then you're like no, that's really no, but she's
also like you don't want to haveto explain it like that's true.
Say milk, will it say this like?
So that was a really like, thatwas an interesting.
And then I mean we, they had togo into production on the book
and we didn't have a title,really yeah, so there was a
period where it was Mama Bears,which I felt like that might be

(01:01:43):
too soft, and then it was likegoing to be like bad Mama Bears,
but it was like there are somany things with like bad moms.

Speaker 1 (01:01:50):
Yeah, yeah.
And then I just think younailed it with whether this is a
tennis racket, which I think itis, cause I can see the tennis
ball or a pickleball Like I.
It's just nailed like and she,not she.
Well, maybe she, I don't know.
I mean no one can see me rightnow, but it is a bear.
So then how do moms like usmake?

Speaker 2 (01:02:09):
it.
So then that was actuallyRonit's idea.
I give her full credit.
And then, and then Plum Sykeshas a book that's called Wives
Like Us and I was like, is thata problem?
And they were like yeah, no,it's already in production.
So if it is a problem, you know, we'll ask for forgiveness Well
and.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Well, and I think it's funny.
So Pictures of you by Emma Gray.
I had the song Pictures of youby the Cure in my head.
I still do.
Now it's back again.
When I got Moms Like Us, all Icould hear and this is going to
date me or age me is this themesong to Spies Like Us.
But I was walking around myhouse singing Moms Like Us.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
That's great, I love it, I love it, I love it.
Well, when I was first writingit, I wanted to start each
chapter with like um, likeeveryone's like um peloton
playlist, because I imagine theyall have like a peloton tread
or a peloton bike or a pelotonsomething, and you know.

(01:03:11):
And then, and, and to put likewords from the song, and what
type of Ronit was like I mean,uh, carmen was like yeah, we, we
can't, we can't afford any ofthose quotes and any of that
music and songs are so litigious.

Speaker 1 (01:03:27):
They're so it's like the most lyrics, rather, or the
one of the most, the just don'tdo it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Oh yeah, no, I had to take everything out, right,
it's not worth it?

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
No, um, all right.
Last question what I mean, Idon't want it to be, but what
are you reading right now?

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
Okay, so I'm always reading several things, um,
right now.
Um, I'm reading a couple ofthings Right now.
I'm reading a couple things.
I'm reading James, which Ididn't know if I'd like and I
love.
I'm really impressed with it.
I just finished the Night weLost Him by Laura Dave.

(01:04:05):
Okay, oh, I was listening to itwhile I was on my trip and I'm
also, so my daughter is dyslexicand so this thing that we
started doing this year, whichI'm really excited about, is
like she's reading all thesecool books in her classes.
So I had, I don't think, and ifI did read Cannery Row by
Steinbeck I don't remember itand I was an English and

(01:04:26):
American literature concentratorat Brown like a lot of books,
but I don't think I ever read it.
So I decided that she washaving a hard time understanding
it, so I decided I would readit aloud with her and so I just
read that I love it.
And then now we're readingthere, there, by I wrote down

(01:04:49):
the tommy orange.
It's about, um, the nativeamerican experience in oakland,
california, and it isextraordinary.
It is not something I wouldnecessarily have thought to pick
up for myself and I am so happythat I picked it up with my
daughter and I'm reading it withher.

(01:05:09):
I found it incredibly.
It's, it's I can't put, like Ican't put it down and I get
annoyed because she's like we'renot supposed to read ahead and
I'm like, oh, we have to.
Like it's, we have to know whathappens at the powwow, Like
it's so, and it was great.
So I I've been really enjoyingthat.
And then I have a whole list ofcause.

(01:05:30):
I'm going away for a vacationwith my family next week and I'm
going to be.
I have like 10 books to read.
I have like mother, like motherFiction.
It's fiction.
I want to read the tell justbecause.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
I want to read that too.

Speaker 2 (01:05:49):
I keep hearing and it's everywhere and um the women
.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
I was just talking to Nanda ready about that.
Last week her book a girlwithin a girl within a girl just
came out and we were talkingabout the women.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Yes, and I have uh pictures of you on my list.
Um, I have um like mother,mother like mother, and um, I
have the new jackie uh friedlandbook, uh, and I love her and
she's awesome.
You should have her on yourshow too, because she is such a

(01:06:25):
a great writer and also like areal supporter of other authors
and, um, she's been reallyhelpful to me being in this
world of publishing.
You know, 20 years after mylast one, and right, um, it's
called it certainly has changed.
It's called counting backwardsby Jackie Friedland.

(01:06:47):
That's Jackie's and I I havethe book and I'm so excited to
read them, to read it onvacation.
But I will say one more thing,which is that I got like my
first like really awful review,which I probably shouldn't even
be talking about, but like itwas on.
I think we should definitely betalking about it.
It was on Goodreads and I wentreally dark, like it was.

(01:07:07):
Like it was.
The review started with wow, Ireally dislike this book, and so
, of course, and then she wenton and she took so many things
out of context and I get it Likeit's not for everyone, like
there are tons of books thatpeople love that I don't get or
I don't like, or I really youknow, but it was like it was

(01:07:30):
such a brutal scathing review.

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
I just don't understand why.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
I mean, I was like so I wrote a response which
obviously I did not share andobviously I did not like do, but
I had to just like write it forme.
And so, since hers started withlike wow, I really dislike this
book, I was like wow, I reallydislike this review.
And I started and I wrote likeI wrote like answers to each of

(01:07:59):
her things Like well, if you hadread it a little more carefully
, you would have seen she wasnot making a joke about this.
What she was doing was blah,blah, blah.
So, anyway, I sent this to my,my three best friends I'm going
on this trip with, and I waslike, can I post this?
And they were like no, no,absolutely not Right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:20):
I mean it's, but it's .
It's so hard.
That's another topic in and ofitself is handling all of that,
and I think so many for every.
You know, of course we all wantthe great reviews, but you
can't.
You can't want the greatreviews without being open to
the not great reviews.
But also, why do people have tobe so awful?

Speaker 2 (01:08:40):
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean like just be like,fine, you want to give it one
start.
Give it one start.
Be like.
This wasn't for me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:47):
It wasn't for me, or just don't say anything Like I
don't understand who wakes up inthe morning, because what I
think is fun is when somebodytakes the time to write just a
ridiculous review, like aridiculously long, sordid review
like that.
If you go look at their other,they review everything poorly,
like they hate everything.

(01:09:08):
They buy every stitch ofclothing they put on.
It's unbelievable, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
Then you just start to feel sad.

Speaker 2 (01:09:17):
Yeah, and then I'm like is there, is there a
character in that person Like Idon't want to live in that
person's head?

Speaker 1 (01:09:22):
No, no, like I don't care what the it's dark, it's
dark in there, it's dark's dark.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
I'm like I'm dark enough, I don't need to go right
like if you don't need toexacerbate this this person, but
the best was like.
She was like look, I have asense of humor, but I'm like oh,
if you start any sentence likethat, right, you don't have a
sense, don't?

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
it's like when people say it's so like so many
precursors to things.
If you have to have thedisclaimer, yeah, whatever
you're I'm not racist, but right, bingo, bingo, anything, no
offense, but yes, right, exactlygo ahead, bring it, it's going
to be offensive yeah, yes,exactly exactly well, thank you,

(01:10:09):
this has been so fun will youcome to LA at some point so we
can hang out in person,absolutely?

Speaker 2 (01:10:16):
or we might just have to like zoom and hang out
because yes, for sure, and Ineed to get within the next 30
days.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
I'm going to be complaining that I need to get
the hell out of here because theheat is about to go like, like
yes this was such a treat.
This was like it was so fun.
Best way to spend a Tuesdaymorning.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
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someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure

(01:10:46):
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
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work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.