April 9, 2025 • 49 mins
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You’ve probably heard the phrase “your book is your business card.” While it sounds cute for a Canva graphic, it totally downplays the blood, sweat, and editing tears that go into creating a book that actually matters. We’re not here for books that gather dust—we’re here for books that make an impact (and, at the very least, pay for lunch).
If you’re dreaming of launching a book that does more than take up space in your trunk, this episode with Naren Aryal, CEO and publisher of Amplify Publishing Group, is for you!
Inside this episode:
📚 Why the “book as a business card” mindset can actually cost you more than it helps
💸 What most authors really need in order to turn a profit (hint: it’s more than just book sales)
🤖 How AI can be a brilliant assistant for your research and marketing; but no, it can’t tell your story for you
🛒 What you need to know about Amazon ads (yes, they work, but only when you know your niche)
💃 The truth nobody wants to hear: If you want your book to sell, you have to show up, regardless of how you published it
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome.
It's not super often that I talkto people in the publishing
space.
I've talked with KathleenSchmidt, who's a publicist, and,
of course, jen Hanson-Depaula,who does author marketing, and
in a couple of weeks I am soexcited to be talking with Jane
Friedman, who I've beenfollowing for years and years,
(01:29):
and I'd be lying if I said Iwasn't just a little bit nervous
when I was contacted severalmonths ago about speaking with
Naren Ariel, who's the CEO andpublisher of Amplify Publishing
Group, which is a verywell-known hybrid publisher, and
they have a really strongreputation.
The reason I was nervous isbecause I didn't know if Naren
(01:52):
and I were going to agree oncertain things and, for the
record, I have no problemwhatsoever not agreeing with
somebody.
I have had Drew Linsalata, mydear friend, on multiple times
talking about audiobooks anddifferent things, and Drew and I
tend to respectfully disagreeon some things.
I mean, like when we reallyagree, we really agree, and when
(02:14):
we don't have the sameexperience, we really don't have
the same experience, but wehave a lot of fun with it and we
love each other no matter whatand respect each other and all
of that.
And this was my first timemeeting Naren and so I thought,
you know, I don't, I don't knowhow this is going to go so
pleasantly surprised.
And I love it so much when I'mso pleasantly surprised because,
for one thing, we've had verysimilar experiences.
(02:35):
We have similar perspectives onthe industry, which does not
necessarily mean that I'm rightor he's or we're both.
There are a lot of people whomight say we're both wrong.
But it was such a lovelyconversation talking about what
Amplify Publishing Group islooking for and doing in the
space and how important it is tothem as a hybrid publisher and
(02:56):
as a high level hybrid publisher.
So if you were following alongmany moons ago, you know I was a
little bit torn to shreds by acertain someone on Threads who
is now being torn to shreds byhis life choices and, yes, there
is a little bit of interestingkarma there.
But the short end of it was alot of people came out and said
(03:20):
that what I was doing as awriting coach or as a
ghostwriter or as a publishingservices provider was highly
unethical and all these things.
And of course, I knew that itwasn't and things were being
taken out of context and it wasa whole big mess.
The fact of the matter is thereare a lot of what I refer to as
vanity publishers who are verymuch taking advantage of
(03:42):
unsuspecting new authors, andAmplify Publishing Group is not
one of them.
They have a lovely, lovely team.
They believe wholeheartedly inthe authors that they work with,
they set expectationsappropriately and accordingly.
And, the cherry on top, as itturned out, nairn and I see a
lot of things the same way,which, again, it's not about
(04:04):
being right.
It's sort of about feeling likeI haven't lost my mind and in
this age and stage ofperimenopause, which you all
know that I am in, I like to notfeel like I'm losing my mind.
That's a real gift every day tonot feel like I'm losing my
mind.
So we talked about the studythat Amplify Publishing Group
(04:25):
did, along with several otheroutlets last year, on the ROI of
, specifically, the nonfictionbook.
So we really are talking aboutleadership, thought leadership,
business leadership, self-help,personal growth, that sort of
thing and what's really neededin that space in order to make
the kind of impact that theauthors with whom Amplify
(04:46):
Publishing Group and I desire towork are looking to make.
All of the notes and the linksto everything that we talked
about are in the episode notes.
I'm extremely grateful to havehad this conversation with Naren
.
I know you're going to love it,so let's just get right on into
the conversation.
I know you're going to love it,so let's just get right on into
(05:09):
the conversation.
This was fun because I thinkwe've had a similar start.
Our journeys have beendifferent, but I think you and I
had a bit of a similar startbecause your first children's
book, right, came out in 2003.
That's right, and did sort ofunexpectedly well, yes, yes,
that's right.
And then my first book, whichwas for parents of newborn twins
(05:30):
, so a children's book of adifferent sort.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Came out in 2004.
And same thing sort of didunexpectedly well,
self-published, and you and Iboth kind of started getting
asked by I'm not trying to tellyour story, this is just what
I've heard, so tell me if I'mwrong but started kind of
getting asked by.
I'm not trying to tell yourstory, this is just what I've
heard, so tell me if I'm wrong,but started kind of getting
asked by other people.
Hey, will you help me with this?
Because you figured out, notthe magic code, but you know,
(05:55):
you know how to navigate this,seemingly, and I've gone in one
direction and you've gone on toform this renowned hybrid
publishing house, amplify.
And I'm so curious to get yourtake.
I know you guys did this wholestudy last year on the ROI
around business and leadershipbooks and that's kind of where I
(06:15):
started when.
I started working with otherauthors about seven.
I haven't been in thepublishing space as long as you
have.
I probably started about sevenyears ago helping other people
publish, and it waspredominantly business and
thought leadership books then.
Now in my world it's segued.
I still do those, but I do alot more fiction and memoir and
(06:37):
creative nonfiction as well, andso I'm excited to have this
conversation specifically aboutthe leadership and the
business-centered books and whatthe thoughts are.
I mean what you're seeing interms of how that's maybe
shifted.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, so it is awesome to have this
conversation with you and toknow that we started about the
same time with a similar path.
We're connected here, aren't we?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I feel like we are Okay excellent, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
And so you know, I entered into this world of
publishing knowing, when I sayzero, I think that's being
generous, it's less than zero.
I'm a lawyer, I'm a businessguy.
I'm not an author.
I'm now a publisher, but Iwasn't.
I didn't know anything aboutbooks and so I just did this as
(07:31):
a hobby.
Published a children's book,got a license from the
university, was for my daughter.
It was supposed to be just afun little side project before I
got back into the drudgery ofthe legal world.
And what we found is there was areal opportunity at the
intersection of licensed sportsproducts and children's
(07:51):
literature that nobody had givena second thought to, and it
probably because it wasn't bigenough in their eyes.
The large houses aren't gonnacare about.
5,000 book sales here, 10,000here, right.
And so we just found thisopportunity and went all in and
along the way, after doing 350books starring college mascots
(08:16):
and professional sports teammascots, what we learned is like
wow, there are a lot of parentsand grandparents that want to
share their love with theirchildren.
Uh, or fan, fan experience, and.
And so that's how we got ourstart.
And then, soon after, as youmentioned, people started asking
us for help with theirchildren's books, and by that
time that was something I knewquite a bit about, and um, and,
(08:36):
and so you know we were doing.
Uh, I guess it was the earlydays of a hybrid.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
It wasn't even called hybrid then, right, and so no,
correct, yeah, yeah, and andeven still, there's, like some,
everyone, it's not.
There's not a commonunderstanding of what hybrid is,
so it's.
It can get tricky because thereare a lot of different
definitions floating around.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I don't know that it is one specific thing and a lot
of different models, and youknow I'm not here to say one is
better than the other.
I am here to say that it's agreat time for content creators
and there are just a lot ofoptions.
Right, that's what I'm here tosay.
And so, after we'd sort ofsaturated that market, you know
(09:33):
what I really enjoy and what Iread are business and thought
leadership and self-help, and soyou know one of the perks of
running your own companies youcan decide where to take your
business, and that's off in 2018.
So we're relatively new to thisspace.
2018, here we are not quiteseven years.
It hasn't quite been seven yearsand now we're doing some really
(09:55):
meaningful books in thebusiness and thought leadership
space and with accomplishedauthors and their ROI.
Speaking of ROI is sure, let'ssell as many books as possible,
but we're also working withpeople that value all the other
things that come with having areally well-done book enter the
market and whether it's being akeynote speaker or providing
(10:19):
consulting services or gettingmedia coverage for what you're
doing or bringing visibility toyour company.
I mean, there's just a host ofreasons and that's why I love
this space, because we can makedecisions from the editorial
space actually from theconceptualization period to the
editorial, to the distribution,to the marketing that all sort
(10:39):
of align with what makes thisproject successful and delivers
an ROI.
That was a long answer, I'msorry.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
No, it was a great answer and I love it.
It created about I don't know,seven, maybe nine more questions
.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
All right, we got time.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
You know, back in the day as I'll call it so about
seven years ago, when I started,you know, helping other people
with this kind of thing, therewas this phrase, this token
phrase, rolling around and thephrase was the writing your book
is.
It's the new best business card.
And it drove me nuts.
But I'll tell you why.
(11:14):
In theory, I completely agreedwith it In concept, or in
reality, I struggled with itfrom the standpoint of doing
what I was doing, because Ithink people were getting the
idea If you write it, it's likeif you build it, they will come.
If I write it, they will come.
If I write it and I just getsomehow some bestseller status
(11:34):
on it, I will make lots of moneyand people will bring me into
Kino.
This was again in the businessand thought leadership space,
and so there were a lot.
There was a lot of expectationsetting.
I come from a corporatebackground as well, and so there
was a lot of expectationsetting that had to kind of go
on when it comes to, or came tohow, how it all works.
(11:55):
So in today, right 2025, how doyou approach that with your
authors?
and and you know, so that theydon't just think it's right and
they will come.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, and I'm with you.
I don't like that sayingbecause it diminishes the real
work that has to go into writinga book.
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
It's hard, I mean on an hourly basis.
You're underpaid writing a bookand whereas a business card,
you know, you go to Kinko's, youdesign it and bam, you got a
business card.
So it doesn't do it justice atall.
Writing a book is so hard,Publishing a book is so hard,
can be expensive, and what Itell people is it's a huge, huge
(12:42):
commitment, financial andotherwise.
Right.
And what I tell people is it'sa huge, huge commitment
financial and otherwise Right.
And and then that's even beforewe get to the point where we got
to market it and get the ideasout there, which is you guessed
it hard.
Yeah, right, it's all hard, andso I don't like that.
And so what I tell folks is youknow, the book has got to be
really good, like the words, theideas.
(13:03):
At the end of the day, that'swhat you're selling, right?
And so we can put some nicepackaging around it and talk
about matte jackets and gloss,spot gloss and and all that.
Those are all sort of cherrieson the top.
But, like the words have got tobe really good for for it to do
the things that you want it todo in the marketplace have got
(13:25):
to be really good for it to dothe things that you want it to
do in the marketplace.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
And how do you determine I mean, it's so
subjective, right what you thinkis a great book somebody else
doesn't like.
What someone else doesn't likeyou think is the best thing
you've ever read?
So, from a professionalstandpoint, how do you best
determine with a prospectiveauthor whether or not it makes
sense for them to make theinvestment?
I think it's always sointeresting on the traditional
side.
It almost feels to many peopleand I'm also agnostic
(13:54):
Traditional works great for manypeople, self works great for
many people.
So understand what you're goinginto and why and then go all in
.
But when someone is making apersonal investment, I don't
know.
Do you ever feel like peopledon't look at it in the same way
that they look at making aninvestment in their business?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And how I deal with.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
That is, you know, most of the people we work with
are are experts in their field,whatever their field may be
right, and, and so, in additionto writing a really good book,
they've got goals for this book.
It's got to have an roi in.
You know, however, theymonetize their, their business,
right, and so, um, it's, itcould be the best book in the
(14:40):
world, but if there's no visionfor how to monetize it, it's
probably not right for usbecause, at the end of the day,
uh, the author, unless you knowthey're, they're writing a
fantasy, fiction, fantasy thatthey've always dreamed of, and
they don't care, uh, who readsit.
You know, there's some realvalue in that as well, and
utility for the author, um, butthat's not the space that we
(15:01):
primarily play in.
And so just want to make surethat they've got a clear idea of
who's going to care.
If you think everyone's goingto care, nobody cares, and then
and right to that person that'sgoing to care, and there's in,
that person that's going to careis hopefully a part of a group
of many people that are going tocare Many respect, you know,
not a huge, massive number, butlike the niche is big enough for
(15:24):
this to work out.
And then, if those factors arethere and they are invested in,
you know, doing the littlethings that sometimes aren't
little small things, like youknow editing.
If you need a writing coach,you know some people are better
suited working with theghostwriter right, Like having
honest, objective conversationswith yourself and being
(15:48):
committed to creating a greatbook that's going to deliver
value to the reader then itmakes sense to make the
investment.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Then it makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Because it is a big investment.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I mean, if nothing else, with your time.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Which has value, because we're just.
I've been saying for years Idon't.
I've never met anyone whowhipped out a great book in 72
hours.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
No, but although on speed I get these ads that say I
can do it in a weekend.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
It makes me want to just it makes me crazy weekend.
It makes me want to just itmakes me crazy.
I, I gotta like get over it.
There's a book out there,shirley, that can coach me on
how to get over it.
But what do you think?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
There's gotta be one written.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
What is, um one of the biggest misconceptions that
you hear when people initiallyreach out.
I think it's interesting thatthere's the pool of people who
come out of the process, justlike there's the pool of people
who successfully open arestaurant or a healthcare thing
right, and you hear that.
(16:49):
But we don't hear as much aboutthe people who think they want
to do it and then change theirminds when they realize that
they have a big misconceptionabout what the space requires to
have air quote success.
What are some of the biggestthat you hear still today?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, I'll go back to target market.
Not having a real clarity onwho the target market is.
I think that's a big problemand we try to have real
conversations around it and Ithink there's also some folks
that just underestimate, again,the work involved.
You know you're running amarathon to write the book and
(17:26):
then you get to the finish lineand it's written and you're
exhausted and then you've gotthis marketing and launch coming
up after that.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And so cause you're only really at mile 13.
Yeah, you think you're at mile26?
You're not you're not.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, and so I think I think those are the, those are
the two big ones, um, and thenagain, really having clarity, uh
, in terms of the why.
Why are we doing this Right?
Why?
And those are the things thatyou have to consider, and
sometimes it doesn't make senseto do it, frankly, when?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So tell me when you kind of counsel people.
This may not make sense.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
If they're not willing to get the help on the
editorial side and they're atrisk of producing a book that is
substandard and actually isgoing to do their brand harm if
it goes out that way Number oneyeah, that's a big one.
Or if there's no.
Particularly within the thoughtleadership crowd that we work
(18:28):
with, there's no real plan tohow to monetize this, and most
people we work with aren't justcounting on book sales, right.
Most people we work with aren'tjust counting on book sales,
right, and so that's where I geta little worried is when the
entire ROI is dependent on booksales.
Right, you want to be able tohave a positive ROI if there are
(18:49):
four or five ways you canmonetize a book, and that's most
of the people that we work with.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
So what are some of the more creative things that
you're seeing?
I mean keynotes and book salesand partnerships.
Is there anything that's kindof somewhat new or newer that?
You're seeing in that space,specifically Because it's so
much different from fiction.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, you know.
What I say about fiction is theceiling is quite high for
fiction.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
But the floor is below the ground.
Yes, right, and so people justget fixated on the quite high,
um, it could be millions ofcopies, but it could be ones and
twos as well.
Yeah, um, and so in terms oflike, uh, monetization, I don't
know if there's anything newunder the sun.
You know, we a lot of keynotespeakers, right, it's.
(19:38):
Speakers are authors, authorsare speakers.
We've seen this is funny.
So we'll see a lot ofconsultants that write about
whatever they're providingconsulting for seminars,
coaching.
We had a note not too long agothat said and this, this author
wrote a book and it's abeautiful book, and he's, he got
(19:59):
back to me and said hey, I wantyou to know, this book helped
me sell my company.
I was like what?
And he told me that, uh, that,uh, the potential acquirer of
his company read his book, andthat's how they first made
contact.
So you know, I don't know thatyou can count on that, but every
once in a while you'll hearthat.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That's the thing too.
I haven't the very first authorI ever worked with, the one who
reached out and said, will youhelp me?
And I thought what I mean.
Truly, the first person I everhelped had the exact same thing
happen, where someone orderedhis book off of Amazon and
wanted him to basically come runhis company off of Amazon.
And wanted him to basicallycome run his company.
It was a multi-seven figureoffer.
(20:39):
He didn't end up taking it fora variety of reasons, but again,
you can't count on it.
But what an interesting whenyou really put everything into
the book that you possibly can.
I mean, if you're just writinglike a basic, so somewhat
controversial.
How do you feel about AI?
I know everyone's getting sotired of this question, but I
(21:01):
got some real feelings.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
You'll be surprised to know.
But Okay, let's go.
One point about the last thingwe're talking about.
Doors will open up.
If you do a book the right wayand it's in your area of
expertise, you will meet peopleand opportunities will become
available.
That is like a universal truthon hundreds of books that we've
done period.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
As long as you're willing to put it out there in
some way, shape or form.
Yeah, exactly, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
AI.
So we are pitched AI editorialtools on a weekly basis and my
personal feeling is it is agreat tool for research, it is a
great tool for marketing copy,it is a great tool for
proofreading but, based on whatI've seen so far, it's not going
(21:51):
to replace the author writingabout her area of expertise,
including her case studies thatshe knows about, talking about
her feelings as she's goingthrough something and her
anecdotes and what's in herheart, what's in her head, right
, it's never going to replacethat, and so you know, every
once in a while we'll seechapters that are a little too
(22:12):
heavily reliant on AI and it islike reading a Wikipedia article
and it drives me crazy.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Okay, I think we're going to be great friends.
I was fully prepared for us tonot agree on this and I'm
totally okay with that.
By the way, I love havingconversations when people have a
difference of opinion.
As long as it's donerespectfully, I have no problem
with that whatsoever.
I think this is so interesting,however, because recently I'd
(22:41):
say within the last six months Iedit as well.
I can absolutely tell when anauthor has shifted from there
are some tells, there are justsome clear tells beyond just a
tone shift and a style shift.
So I agree, I have the sameexperience and feeling and
(23:02):
thought as what you said.
I I I use it to create my dailyschedule.
Um, I'm a little conflictedright now because my daughter
told me over the weekend ingreat detail how horrible it is
for the environment.
So I feel you know a little.
I didn't fully understand thatand now I'm kind of like oh gosh
, but putting that to the side,cause that's a whole other
(23:25):
conversation.
I think it's great for research.
I think it's great for joggingan author's creativity If
they're just really strugglingnot to come up with what to say
but maybe how to say it andagain, not to plagiarize that,
but to just get them in thatspace it's.
I don't think it's that muchdifferent from putting on a
(23:46):
certain kind of music that getsyou kind of in the zone or going
for anything else that kind ofgets you in there, right, but I
do you think this will just be ablip where people get the idea
that they can write a whole book?
I'm seeing the ads for it nowtoo.
Like I wrote my whole 150 pagebook over the weekend with AI
and I just made three hundredand seventy two billion dollars
(24:08):
and, you know, bought aCybertruck and all these sorts
of things.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Are you seeing that?
Yeah, I'm hearing those peoplesay that, but I'm not actually
seeing that.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I'm not seeing that.
I hear those whispers but, likesomeone, show me those.
There's just no, there's nosubstitute to putting in the
work.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
There's, there's just not.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I mean, believe me, I do.
I don't even know if I wishthere were, but there are
certain days, certainly, when Iwish there were.
No one wants to.
But here's the thing that Ithink is interesting, especially
in the space in which youoperate, is that the thought
leaders and the business leadersand the self-help professionals
who go out and have built acareer on the knowledge and the
(24:52):
experience that they now have.
It wasn't easy, and people are,and people know getting my PhD
isn't going to be easy, startinga restaurant is not going to be
easy, but for some reasonthere's still this kind of
thought that like, oh, but I canjust whip out a book.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
It doesn't happen, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
It's one of the greatest things I work to kind
of dispel is that it's still abook, yeah, a book, yes, but not
a, not a good book.
Yeah, Bingo.
So what do you feel mostexcited about in the?
Do you consider hybrid indie?
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Um boy, these definitions sort of run together
.
Um, I, I don't necessarily um,but maybe you know, when I think
of indie, I think of, maybe, asmall traditional house.
Um, maybe that's, maybe that'swrong.
Um, uh, hybrid.
You know, I think the ibpa hasa list of criteria for hybrid
that, uh, that you know arepretty comprehensive and and the
main thing, and we're verystraightforward and transparent
(25:52):
about it uh, the hybrid modelmeans authors help fund the
creation, help fund the servicesthat are going into creating a
book.
We're providing distribution,we're providing marketing and in
exchange for that, the authorowns intellectual property.
All of it has full and finalcreative control, but we hope
they'll rely on our expertisealong the way and they'll get
(26:17):
higher royalties as a result.
So, like you know, those arethe things that are the top of
the list that I that I think ofwhen I think of hybrid.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
And are you guiding them when it comes to marketing
and or relying on them to do theheavy lifting and or relying on
them to do the heavy lifting,or I think that's one of the
biggest misconceptions.
Whether it's a traditionalhouse or a hybrid house is well.
I want to go with that, becausethey're going to do all my
marketing for me.
How do you all approach that?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
So pretty honest.
There too, author must beengaged in the marketing of his
book period.
It doesn't work otherwise, andthat's whether you're published
by Simon Schuster, by Amplify orAmazon, kdp, right, it's just
author must be engaged.
And so we do have a team ofbook marketers and we focus on
(27:07):
launching thought leadershiptitles and we put together a.
We have a program it's a fivemonth program to launch a book,
and you know we do good work.
Sometimes we get we get mediaplacement that we say wow too,
and we've had our authors thatyou know all the big, you know
morning shows and evening shows,and sometimes the books that
(27:30):
you think that are going to geta lot of traction and coverage
sometimes just don't as much asyou think.
And so we've got a good programand we've delivered good
results for a lot of people.
I wish we could say that.
You know we could guarantee itfor everybody that we work with.
But you still need somebody onthe other end to say, yes, I
want to give this book coverageon my podcast or my TV show, and
(27:54):
you know there are a hundredthings that an author should be
thinking about trying when itcomes to launching their book,
and on the front end.
You don't know which 20 ofthose hundred are actually going
to work, but it's important totry all hundred.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
And when it comes to bookstores, are you finding that
, in the space that you're in, alot of your authors are doing
more bulk sales, or are theyrelying on the one-off sales
from whether it's Amazon or abookshop or an actual physical
store?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
So I think that in our space, in the thought
leadership and business spacesjust the way the world is 70% of
books are going to be sold onAmazon.
I hate it, I don't like it, butit's just the way it is.
And these folks also have theopportunity to sell in bulk,
because they're speaking as partof their speaking arrangements
(28:46):
and they also can sell direct toconsumer as well, and so it's
usually a mix of Amazon,independence, bulk.
That's what we're seeing.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And what are you seeing with e-books and audio
books in those areasspecifically?
Of thought leadership.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, I think that any prediction of the physical
book not being as importantdidn't turn out to be accurate,
because people still love thephysical form and I think that
what I've seen is, as the bookgrows in popularity, the
percentage of eBooks will riseand the percentage of audio
(29:26):
books will rise, because thesefolks don't necessarily have a
connection to the author Anyonewith a connection with the
author.
They want that physical book,and so you know it's.
It's not uncommon for us tosell 50% physical book and a 25%
ebook and 25% audio book for agiven title.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
And that makes me happy.
It's a great entry point.
I find the ebook because youcan.
It's harder to put a physicalbook on sale right, because it
eats into your profit margin,especially if you're selling
through another distributor orthrough a retailer.
But the ebook, and sometimeseven the audio book, are easier
(30:06):
for an author to sell direct toconsumer, right off their
website or you know.
In any event there's no printfee.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
So you kind of remove that from the equation.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
That's right.
That's right.
And you know different umdifferent ways forward.
Uh, makes sense for differentauthors, right, and and so, like
we work with people all overthe globe and for them a print
on demand approaches is, is justmakes more sense.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Right, Trying to you know, do you do a mix?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, is it print?
Speaker 1 (30:36):
on demand and you have a print run as well.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, so I would say most of our um authors demand
physical books.
Um, so that's where you knowthe vast majority of our work is
and hope we are flexible inthat.
Uh, on occasion we'll do printon demand.
We'll also switch fromhardcover to paperback and
subsequent runs.
So it's a mix.
Really, what is best for theproject?
Speaker 1 (31:00):
What makes the most sense for that particular
product.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You know what are you most excited about talking
about right now in the space,what really gets you excited to
have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, so you know, we did do this incredible.
Author.
Roi survey.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
It was the first of its kind.
We interviewed 300 authors andyou know we've talked a lot
anecdotally about and we've doneit on this podcast about the
value of a book, but this was anopportunity to put some real
research behind it and wepartnered with the folks, with
our friends over at SmithPublicity, gotham Ghost Writers
(31:39):
and a gentleman named JoshBernoff who is quite influential
in the nonfiction space andhe's technically minded and he
led the survey, and I shouldalso mention our friends at
Thought Leadership Leverage aswell, and so we all came
together and we said, hey,wouldn't it be great if we
actually put the survey together?
And what we found sort ofreally confirmed a lot of the
(32:02):
anecdotal data that are theanecdotal thoughts that we've
all been talking about in termsof you know why a book makes
sense and when it makes sense,and so I'm super excited about
talking about that.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
That's one thing.
And then these conversations.
I could talk all day long.
I know Right what.
What came back from that?
I think I, if I read itcorrectly, it was like a dollar
twenty four on average return.
Is that correct?
For every dollar spent?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah.
And so what we did is we triedto separate, you know, the
self-published authors versusthe hybrid published authors and
the traditionally publishedauthors, and so we came up with
some real data for that wereapplicable for each, and what we
found is, of course, there's noright or wrong answer.
That wasn't the point here.
Right, there's some strengthsin some areas where one was
(32:54):
stronger than the other, butalso there was a trade-off
between, you know, obviously, ahybrid.
You can spend a lot of money,so you'd expect that you're
going to have a better return.
The self-publishing isrelatively low cost, and so what
we found is the return wascommensurate with a low cost,
right?
And so, again, no, you know,I'm not favoring one side over
(33:18):
the other.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
But that's.
Those are some of the reallyinteresting things, and so
anyone listening here theyshould go to.
Author ROIcom.
Download the download thesurvey for free.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I'll put a link in the episode notes because it's
pretty interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
What was there?
Any result that reallysurprised you?
Traditional publishedpublishing deals, right, no
advances.
And then, on top of that, therewas an expectation of an author
buyback if the book didn't sellX number of copies.
Yes, so you know, in thesesituations the authors would be,
you know, maybe worse offfinancially than had they just
(34:08):
gone with a hybrid or done itthemselves.
And so the number of authortraditionally published authors
deals with zero advance wassomething like 30, 35% in our
survey, which is representativeof what's going on right now, so
that surprised me.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Well, I a couple of things have surprised me.
One is that the advances aregoing down and I this is
certainly not across the board.
I mean it is across the board,but I'm not Jen Iize.
But one of the things that Ithink I've heard a couple of
authors say who aretraditionally published is they
don't mind that because itallows them to A earn out, which
is always the mark of airquotes, success in the
(34:48):
traditional world, and then Bthey might have more royalties
coming to them down the line, asopposed to feeling this
pressure to earn out asix-figure advance within the
first six to eight weeks, whichcan feel very challenging.
But I've heard the same thatyou've heard where and I've seen
it happen to a couple of peoplethey've invested in the or it's
(35:12):
a traditional deal in the sensethat they didn't make an
investment but they were tosplit the royalties, say 50-50
or 60-40.
And then it was like oh, but ifyou don't sell 3,000 copies by
such and such a date, not justvia a retailer but via the
publisher's website specifically, that's where they had to sell
(35:33):
and no one wanted to buy therebecause it was full price, as
opposed to Amazon where theywere getting some sort of a
discount and free shipping.
So then they get a bill for$15,000 or $20,000.
And all of a sudden, what wasonce free?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yep, yep, I've heard those stories as well.
So, and then some of the otherissues that I'm talking about
and hearing a lot of is, uh, youknow, frustration with Amazon,
um, uh, small publishers andauthors, you know just not uh
having visibility on on sales,and, um, you know, uh, them
(36:09):
taking a huge amount in terms ofwholesale fees.
Uh, you know, going down andit's just, it's it's difficult,
amazon's difficult.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Do you all, do any of your authors, ever run ads on
Amazon, or do you guysparticipate that in that at all?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, we do as a strategy.
What's?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
your experience with that?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
For um, you know what it's.
It's actually one thing on thatplatform that I really like, uh
, because you can tweak the ad,spend you can tweak the keywords
and they'll give you metrics.
That says you know what, forevery dollar you spend, we can
show you you got $1.50 back.
And whereas social media adsthe metrics aren't as solid,
(36:48):
because you can spend $100 onFacebook ads and not really know
the ROI on actual booksellersAmazon, you do.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Well, there are two things, though, that are
complicated.
One is that they report yoursales, which is not the same as
your profit.
So, your A cost, your averagecost of spend, is actually not a
great reflection necessarily ofyour profit margin, because it
doesn't take into account whatyour print cost is and the
amount that Amazon is taking.
But here's the other thing thatI've noticed there and that I
think is in crazy is that Amazonunder reports seemingly, um,
(37:24):
and this is to their detrimentyour sales based on ads.
So I had with my last book Ididn't, I think I had like one
sale, my most book.
I had sold one in the monthbefore I started running ads.
And the month I ran ads.
I sold 84.
But according to Amazon'sreporting, I had only sold like
(37:45):
38.
And there was nothing else thatI could point to in terms of
why would this book now bemoving.
I wasn't running meta ads, Iwasn't promoting via ads, I
wasn't promoting via socialmedia, nothing.
The only thing I was doingdifferently was running those
Amazon ads.
I love Amazon ads, for therecord, because they're super
low cost.
And I was just curious.
You know, you do start to feela bit like a needle in a
(38:07):
haystack and I think that inthat genre thought leadership
you're really in, I mean, in theentrepreneurial category.
Some of the suggested keywordsare like $6 a click, so I would
be losing three hours, you know.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
That's right.
That's right, and but the thingalso about Amazon AdWords is
you can bet on keywords relatedto your book, but also comp
titles.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
There you go, so so you got two swings there.
And do you find that that'simportant for your authors to
know?
Okay, what lane is my book inLike?
If you liked this, you willlike my book.
Is that an important?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
And and particularly if you'rein this seemingly obscure lane,
like I was talking to somebodytoday who's got a book on
procurement right, and like itsounds like a yawner, right, but
procurement is a big dealacross a lot of companies, right
.
And so I went on Amazon andthis is before our conversation
(39:14):
and I looked at all the books onprocurement.
I was like there's not a damnbook that's worth anything on
procurement.
I was like this is anopportunity for you.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
And so like knowing your lane and knowing comp
titles, very important and beingrealistic.
Being realistic about your comptitles Like look, atomic Habits
is probably not a comp titlefor you.
Let them.
Mel Robbins' latest is probablynot the right comp for you.
Let's be Right.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Well, and also knowing what keywords your ideal
person is searching when theygo to Amazon for a book on
procurement.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Like you've really got to start to speak the
language of your reader.
I don't care what genre you'vewritten, you've got to have or
gain over time, becausesometimes it takes a lot of time
to hone this.
But like, what are the?
I don't even like to use theword buzzword, but what are they
?
What's in their brain whenthey're out there and they're
looking for a book onprocurement?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Oh yeah, you got to know the maybe procurement is at
the top.
You got to know the two orthree words underneath
procurement Exactly.
Those are where you want to putyour check, exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Well, and also, you know Amazon can float their ads
outside of the Amazon ecosystemtoo.
So also knowing, for example,what are people searching on
Google when they're looking forhelp with procurement, because
I'm telling you, eight times outof 10, if I search for
something like I can't eventhink of anything right now.
You know how to survive the dayit's going to.
(40:42):
The first Google response isgoing to take me to Amazon.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
That's right.
It's a.
I mean, like them or not,they're here, Amazon, they are
here and they are not.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
They are not going anywhere and it's tough because
as a consumer, they're easy tolove.
I can have something on mydoorstep in 45 minutes, but as a
business person, we wrestle, Iwrestle anyway.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
That's the nicest thing we can say is we wrestle?
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Look, we're trying to be.
Yeah, well, thank you.
Is there anything else that youwant to?
You know, get out there aboutany of this.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
No, I really enjoyed it and, um, you know, I love uh,
I've grown to love the world ofbooks, because this is not my,
this is not my background, andso, um, I can have these
conversations all day long andit's something that I'm
passionate about.
It's something that my this isnot my background, and so I can
have these conversations all daylong and it's something that
I'm passionate about.
It's something that my, my teamis passionate about, and I, if
I could give a plug, I got agreat team and so I'm so glad to
(41:43):
hear that.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I mean it's, it's one of the greatest I think like
within this space.
I don't sometimes it well, alot of times it reminds me of
Hollywood a lot, where behindthe curtain we think it's all
roses and butterflies andunicorns and all this and it's
really not.
And so when you can find asegment of it, of the book
publishing industry, that's justso.
I love the connections and thecommunity and the conversations
(42:07):
and the open-minded nature Ifyou can find that and even
better, if you can curate it ina team where, when you start
hearing about those companies,those are the companies people
want to work with.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, yeah, well, well, thank you.
And and I will say that, uh, asa group, authors are incredibly
generous with their time andtheir advice with other authors
because, um, you know, it's kindof lonely going through it and
you learn a lot going through it.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
And with their support and the support you know
I don't feel like it's ascompetitive and cutthroat it can
be in certain genres and we'veall seen that play out.
But what I tend to gravitatetoward is where there's a lot of
generosity of spirit and justpay it backward, pay it forward
sideways, you know, and there'sa lot of that in this space.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, and so you know was I surprised that 300
authors contributed to thisauthor ROI survey.
Big number, but it goes to showyou that people really are
invested not only in theirsuccess, but other people as
well.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
And the honesty and the transparency I mean that's
the thing that I've loved mostabout doing this podcast is how
willing authors are to be fullytransparent, whether they're New
York Times bestsellers or justtrying to get through chapter
one of their very first book.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
There's not a lot of posturing, and at least not
around here, so I love that.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Also, as we said when we started it's, it's a
humbling experience, right, andso so, uh, you carry that with
with you and uh you want to helpthose that uh come after you.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
I always ask people last what are you reading now?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Oh my gosh, I've got a stack of manuscripts right now
.
That's what I'm reading.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Okay, fair enough Fair enough.
What's what's come out recentlyfrom Amplify that you're really
excited about?
You want to plug one of those,yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
You know what?
I will plug one, and it's anunconventional one.
So one of our authors, ursKoenig.
He wrote a book called RadicalHumility and it's a great book.
It's a thought leadership book.
He's a leadership expert, butwhat he did after that is what's
noteworthy.
He took copious notes everystep in the publishing process
(44:24):
and he wrote an ebook that he'sgiving away free download about.
It's called the HybridPublishing Handbook.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Oh, nice about.
It's called the Hybrid.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Publishing Handbook.
Oh nice it is.
You know, in the spirit ofgenerosity and helping others,
it's maybe 80 page book abouthybrid publishing and so if you
go to his website, I didn'tthink I was going to plug his
website.
But here we go, urs Koenig,u-r-s-k-o-e-n-i-gcom and search
for the Hybrid PublishingHandbook.
It is his experience as a firsttime author and what he learned
(44:56):
going through the process.
It's worth a read.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
And I'll definitely put it in the show notes.
And it's free, it's free andit's.
And even if it weren't, I thinkit's so there is no one.
This is how it always goes.
Yes, so the best thing thatthat I can do for myself.
I know, and I is read a lot ofdifferent experiences and I
truly going back a little bit towhat we said a second ago I
(45:19):
love that authors are oftenwilling to say look, this is my
experience, so this doesn't meandon't go with this person, or
do go, or if you go with thisperson, you're going to have the
same experience I had.
It's just, this is myexperience.
And we need all of those sothat people can get the full
breadth of what this is allreally about.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, yeah, you could have said that, yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Well, thank you for creating the time and sharing
your experience.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
I've really enjoyed it and let's do it again soon.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Let's absolutely do it again soon.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message, but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
(46:13):
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome.
It's not super often that I talkto people in the publishing
space.
I've talked with KathleenSchmidt, who's a publicist, and,
of course, jen Hanson-Depaula,who does author marketing, and
in a couple of weeks I am soexcited to be talking with Jane
Friedman, who I've beenfollowing for years and years,
(01:29):
and I'd be lying if I said Iwasn't just a little bit nervous
when I was contacted severalmonths ago about speaking with
Naren Ariel, who's the CEO andpublisher of Amplify Publishing
Group, which is a verywell-known hybrid publisher, and
they have a really strongreputation.
The reason I was nervous isbecause I didn't know if Naren
(01:52):
and I were going to agree oncertain things and, for the
record, I have no problemwhatsoever not agreeing with
somebody.
I have had Drew Linsalata, mydear friend, on multiple times
talking about audiobooks anddifferent things, and Drew and I
tend to respectfully disagreeon some things.
I mean, like when we reallyagree, we really agree, and when
(02:14):
we don't have the sameexperience, we really don't have
the same experience, but wehave a lot of fun with it and we
love each other no matter whatand respect each other and all
of that.
And this was my first timemeeting Naren and so I thought,
you know, I don't, I don't knowhow this is going to go so
pleasantly surprised.
And I love it so much when I'mso pleasantly surprised because,
for one thing, we've had verysimilar experiences.
(02:35):
We have similar perspectives onthe industry, which does not
necessarily mean that I'm rightor he's or we're both.
There are a lot of people whomight say we're both wrong.
But it was such a lovelyconversation talking about what
Amplify Publishing Group islooking for and doing in the
space and how important it is tothem as a hybrid publisher and
(02:56):
as a high level hybrid publisher.
So if you were following alongmany moons ago, you know I was a
little bit torn to shreds by acertain someone on Threads who
is now being torn to shreds byhis life choices and, yes, there
is a little bit of interestingkarma there.
But the short end of it was alot of people came out and said
(03:20):
that what I was doing as awriting coach or as a
ghostwriter or as a publishingservices provider was highly
unethical and all these things.
And of course, I knew that itwasn't and things were being
taken out of context and it wasa whole big mess.
The fact of the matter is thereare a lot of what I refer to as
vanity publishers who are verymuch taking advantage of
(03:42):
unsuspecting new authors, andAmplify Publishing Group is not
one of them.
They have a lovely, lovely team.
They believe wholeheartedly inthe authors that they work with,
they set expectationsappropriately and accordingly.
And, the cherry on top, as itturned out, nairn and I see a
lot of things the same way,which, again, it's not about
(04:04):
being right.
It's sort of about feeling likeI haven't lost my mind and in
this age and stage ofperimenopause, which you all
know that I am in, I like to notfeel like I'm losing my mind.
That's a real gift every day tonot feel like I'm losing my
mind.
So we talked about the studythat Amplify Publishing Group
(04:25):
did, along with several otheroutlets last year, on the ROI of
, specifically, the nonfictionbook.
So we really are talking aboutleadership, thought leadership,
business leadership, self-help,personal growth, that sort of
thing and what's really neededin that space in order to make
the kind of impact that theauthors with whom Amplify
(04:46):
Publishing Group and I desire towork are looking to make.
All of the notes and the linksto everything that we talked
about are in the episode notes.
I'm extremely grateful to havehad this conversation with Naren
.
I know you're going to love it,so let's just get right on into
the conversation.
I know you're going to love it,so let's just get right on into
(05:09):
the conversation.
This was fun because I thinkwe've had a similar start.
Our journeys have beendifferent, but I think you and I
had a bit of a similar startbecause your first children's
book, right, came out in 2003.
That's right, and did sort ofunexpectedly well, yes, yes,
that's right.
And then my first book, whichwas for parents of newborn twins
(05:30):
, so a children's book of adifferent sort.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
Came out in 2004.
And same thing sort of didunexpectedly well,
self-published, and you and Iboth kind of started getting
asked by I'm not trying to tellyour story, this is just what
I've heard, so tell me if I'mwrong but started kind of
getting asked by.
I'm not trying to tell yourstory, this is just what I've
heard, so tell me if I'm wrong,but started kind of getting
asked by other people.
Hey, will you help me with this?
Because you figured out, notthe magic code, but you know,
(05:55):
you know how to navigate this,seemingly, and I've gone in one
direction and you've gone on toform this renowned hybrid
publishing house, amplify.
And I'm so curious to get yourtake.
I know you guys did this wholestudy last year on the ROI
around business and leadershipbooks and that's kind of where I
(06:15):
started when.
I started working with otherauthors about seven.
I haven't been in thepublishing space as long as you
have.
I probably started about sevenyears ago helping other people
publish, and it waspredominantly business and
thought leadership books then.
Now in my world it's segued.
I still do those, but I do alot more fiction and memoir and
(06:37):
creative nonfiction as well, andso I'm excited to have this
conversation specifically aboutthe leadership and the
business-centered books and whatthe thoughts are.
I mean what you're seeing interms of how that's maybe
shifted.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, so it is awesome to have this
conversation with you and toknow that we started about the
same time with a similar path.
We're connected here, aren't we?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, I feel like we are Okay excellent, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
And so you know, I entered into this world of
publishing knowing, when I sayzero, I think that's being
generous, it's less than zero.
I'm a lawyer, I'm a businessguy.
I'm not an author.
I'm now a publisher, but Iwasn't.
I didn't know anything aboutbooks and so I just did this as
(07:31):
a hobby.
Published a children's book,got a license from the
university, was for my daughter.
It was supposed to be just afun little side project before I
got back into the drudgery ofthe legal world.
And what we found is there was areal opportunity at the
intersection of licensed sportsproducts and children's
(07:51):
literature that nobody had givena second thought to, and it
probably because it wasn't bigenough in their eyes.
The large houses aren't gonnacare about.
5,000 book sales here, 10,000here, right.
And so we just found thisopportunity and went all in and
along the way, after doing 350books starring college mascots
(08:16):
and professional sports teammascots, what we learned is like
wow, there are a lot of parentsand grandparents that want to
share their love with theirchildren.
Uh, or fan, fan experience, and.
And so that's how we got ourstart.
And then, soon after, as youmentioned, people started asking
us for help with theirchildren's books, and by that
time that was something I knewquite a bit about, and um, and,
(08:36):
and so you know we were doing.
Uh, I guess it was the earlydays of a hybrid.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
It wasn't even called hybrid then, right, and so no,
correct, yeah, yeah, and andeven still, there's, like some,
everyone, it's not.
There's not a commonunderstanding of what hybrid is,
so it's.
It can get tricky because thereare a lot of different
definitions floating around.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
I don't know that it is one specific thing and a lot
of different models, and youknow I'm not here to say one is
better than the other.
I am here to say that it's agreat time for content creators
and there are just a lot ofoptions.
Right, that's what I'm here tosay.
And so, after we'd sort ofsaturated that market, you know
(09:33):
what I really enjoy and what Iread are business and thought
leadership and self-help, and soyou know one of the perks of
running your own companies youcan decide where to take your
business, and that's off in 2018.
So we're relatively new to thisspace.
2018, here we are not quiteseven years.
It hasn't quite been seven yearsand now we're doing some really
(09:55):
meaningful books in thebusiness and thought leadership
space and with accomplishedauthors and their ROI.
Speaking of ROI is sure, let'ssell as many books as possible,
but we're also working withpeople that value all the other
things that come with having areally well-done book enter the
market and whether it's being akeynote speaker or providing
(10:19):
consulting services or gettingmedia coverage for what you're
doing or bringing visibility toyour company.
I mean, there's just a host ofreasons and that's why I love
this space, because we can makedecisions from the editorial
space actually from theconceptualization period to the
editorial, to the distribution,to the marketing that all sort
(10:39):
of align with what makes thisproject successful and delivers
an ROI.
That was a long answer, I'msorry.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
No, it was a great answer and I love it.
It created about I don't know,seven, maybe nine more questions
.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
All right, we got time.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
You know, back in the day as I'll call it so about
seven years ago, when I started,you know, helping other people
with this kind of thing, therewas this phrase, this token
phrase, rolling around and thephrase was the writing your book
is.
It's the new best business card.
And it drove me nuts.
But I'll tell you why.
(11:14):
In theory, I completely agreedwith it In concept, or in
reality, I struggled with itfrom the standpoint of doing
what I was doing, because Ithink people were getting the
idea If you write it, it's likeif you build it, they will come.
If I write it, they will come.
If I write it and I just getsomehow some bestseller status
(11:34):
on it, I will make lots of moneyand people will bring me into
Kino.
This was again in the businessand thought leadership space,
and so there were a lot.
There was a lot of expectationsetting.
I come from a corporatebackground as well, and so there
was a lot of expectationsetting that had to kind of go
on when it comes to, or came tohow, how it all works.
(11:55):
So in today, right 2025, how doyou approach that with your
authors?
and and you know, so that theydon't just think it's right and
they will come.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah, and I'm with you.
I don't like that sayingbecause it diminishes the real
work that has to go into writinga book.
It's hard.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
It's hard, I mean on an hourly basis.
You're underpaid writing a bookand whereas a business card,
you know, you go to Kinko's, youdesign it and bam, you got a
business card.
So it doesn't do it justice atall.
Writing a book is so hard,Publishing a book is so hard,
can be expensive, and what Itell people is it's a huge, huge
(12:42):
commitment, financial andotherwise.
Right.
And what I tell people is it'sa huge, huge commitment
financial and otherwise Right.
And and then that's even beforewe get to the point where we got
to market it and get the ideasout there, which is you guessed
it hard.
Yeah, right, it's all hard, andso I don't like that.
And so what I tell folks is youknow, the book has got to be
really good, like the words, theideas.
(13:03):
At the end of the day, that'swhat you're selling, right?
And so we can put some nicepackaging around it and talk
about matte jackets and gloss,spot gloss and and all that.
Those are all sort of cherrieson the top.
But, like the words have got tobe really good for for it to do
the things that you want it todo in the marketplace have got
(13:25):
to be really good for it to dothe things that you want it to
do in the marketplace.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
And how do you determine I mean, it's so
subjective, right what you thinkis a great book somebody else
doesn't like.
What someone else doesn't likeyou think is the best thing
you've ever read?
So, from a professionalstandpoint, how do you best
determine with a prospectiveauthor whether or not it makes
sense for them to make theinvestment?
I think it's always sointeresting on the traditional
side.
It almost feels to many peopleand I'm also agnostic
(13:54):
Traditional works great for manypeople, self works great for
many people.
So understand what you're goinginto and why and then go all in
.
But when someone is making apersonal investment, I don't
know.
Do you ever feel like peopledon't look at it in the same way
that they look at making aninvestment in their business?
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And how I deal with.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
That is, you know, most of the people we work with
are are experts in their field,whatever their field may be
right, and, and so, in additionto writing a really good book,
they've got goals for this book.
It's got to have an roi in.
You know, however, theymonetize their, their business,
right, and so, um, it's, itcould be the best book in the
(14:40):
world, but if there's no visionfor how to monetize it, it's
probably not right for usbecause, at the end of the day,
uh, the author, unless you knowthey're, they're writing a
fantasy, fiction, fantasy thatthey've always dreamed of, and
they don't care, uh, who readsit.
You know, there's some realvalue in that as well, and
utility for the author, um, butthat's not the space that we
(15:01):
primarily play in.
And so just want to make surethat they've got a clear idea of
who's going to care.
If you think everyone's goingto care, nobody cares, and then
and right to that person that'sgoing to care, and there's in,
that person that's going to careis hopefully a part of a group
of many people that are going tocare Many respect, you know,
not a huge, massive number, butlike the niche is big enough for
(15:24):
this to work out.
And then, if those factors arethere and they are invested in,
you know, doing the littlethings that sometimes aren't
little small things, like youknow editing.
If you need a writing coach,you know some people are better
suited working with theghostwriter right, Like having
honest, objective conversationswith yourself and being
(15:48):
committed to creating a greatbook that's going to deliver
value to the reader then itmakes sense to make the
investment.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
Then it makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Because it is a big investment.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
I mean, if nothing else, with your time.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Which has value, because we're just.
I've been saying for years Idon't.
I've never met anyone whowhipped out a great book in 72
hours.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
No, but although on speed I get these ads that say I
can do it in a weekend.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
It makes me want to just it makes me crazy weekend.
It makes me want to just itmakes me crazy.
I, I gotta like get over it.
There's a book out there,shirley, that can coach me on
how to get over it.
But what do you think?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
There's gotta be one written.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
What is, um one of the biggest misconceptions that
you hear when people initiallyreach out.
I think it's interesting thatthere's the pool of people who
come out of the process, justlike there's the pool of people
who successfully open arestaurant or a healthcare thing
right, and you hear that.
(16:49):
But we don't hear as much aboutthe people who think they want
to do it and then change theirminds when they realize that
they have a big misconceptionabout what the space requires to
have air quote success.
What are some of the biggestthat you hear still today?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, I'll go back to target market.
Not having a real clarity onwho the target market is.
I think that's a big problemand we try to have real
conversations around it and Ithink there's also some folks
that just underestimate, again,the work involved.
You know you're running amarathon to write the book and
(17:26):
then you get to the finish lineand it's written and you're
exhausted and then you've gotthis marketing and launch coming
up after that.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And so cause you're only really at mile 13.
Yeah, you think you're at mile26?
You're not you're not.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, and so I think I think those are the, those are
the two big ones, um, and thenagain, really having clarity, uh
, in terms of the why.
Why are we doing this Right?
Why?
And those are the things thatyou have to consider, and
sometimes it doesn't make senseto do it, frankly, when?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
So tell me when you kind of counsel people.
This may not make sense.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
If they're not willing to get the help on the
editorial side and they're atrisk of producing a book that is
substandard and actually isgoing to do their brand harm if
it goes out that way Number oneyeah, that's a big one.
Or if there's no.
Particularly within the thoughtleadership crowd that we work
(18:28):
with, there's no real plan tohow to monetize this, and most
people we work with aren't justcounting on book sales, right.
Most people we work with aren'tjust counting on book sales,
right, and so that's where I geta little worried is when the
entire ROI is dependent on booksales.
Right, you want to be able tohave a positive ROI if there are
(18:49):
four or five ways you canmonetize a book, and that's most
of the people that we work with.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
So what are some of the more creative things that
you're seeing?
I mean keynotes and book salesand partnerships.
Is there anything that's kindof somewhat new or newer that?
You're seeing in that space,specifically Because it's so
much different from fiction.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, you know.
What I say about fiction is theceiling is quite high for
fiction.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
But the floor is below the ground.
Yes, right, and so people justget fixated on the quite high,
um, it could be millions ofcopies, but it could be ones and
twos as well.
Yeah, um, and so in terms oflike, uh, monetization, I don't
know if there's anything newunder the sun.
You know, we a lot of keynotespeakers, right, it's.
(19:38):
Speakers are authors, authorsare speakers.
We've seen this is funny.
So we'll see a lot ofconsultants that write about
whatever they're providingconsulting for seminars,
coaching.
We had a note not too long agothat said and this, this author
wrote a book and it's abeautiful book, and he's, he got
(19:59):
back to me and said hey, I wantyou to know, this book helped
me sell my company.
I was like what?
And he told me that, uh, that,uh, the potential acquirer of
his company read his book, andthat's how they first made
contact.
So you know, I don't know thatyou can count on that, but every
once in a while you'll hearthat.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
That's the thing too.
I haven't the very first authorI ever worked with, the one who
reached out and said, will youhelp me?
And I thought what I mean.
Truly, the first person I everhelped had the exact same thing
happen, where someone orderedhis book off of Amazon and
wanted him to basically come runhis company off of Amazon.
And wanted him to basicallycome run his company.
It was a multi-seven figureoffer.
(20:39):
He didn't end up taking it fora variety of reasons, but again,
you can't count on it.
But what an interesting whenyou really put everything into
the book that you possibly can.
I mean, if you're just writinglike a basic, so somewhat
controversial.
How do you feel about AI?
I know everyone's getting sotired of this question, but I
(21:01):
got some real feelings.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
You'll be surprised to know.
But Okay, let's go.
One point about the last thingwe're talking about.
Doors will open up.
If you do a book the right wayand it's in your area of
expertise, you will meet peopleand opportunities will become
available.
That is like a universal truthon hundreds of books that we've
done period.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
As long as you're willing to put it out there in
some way, shape or form.
Yeah, exactly, yeah exactly.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
AI.
So we are pitched AI editorialtools on a weekly basis and my
personal feeling is it is agreat tool for research, it is a
great tool for marketing copy,it is a great tool for
proofreading but, based on whatI've seen so far, it's not going
(21:51):
to replace the author writingabout her area of expertise,
including her case studies thatshe knows about, talking about
her feelings as she's goingthrough something and her
anecdotes and what's in herheart, what's in her head, right
, it's never going to replacethat, and so you know, every
once in a while we'll seechapters that are a little too
(22:12):
heavily reliant on AI and it islike reading a Wikipedia article
and it drives me crazy.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
Okay, I think we're going to be great friends.
I was fully prepared for us tonot agree on this and I'm
totally okay with that.
By the way, I love havingconversations when people have a
difference of opinion.
As long as it's donerespectfully, I have no problem
with that whatsoever.
I think this is so interesting,however, because recently I'd
(22:41):
say within the last six months Iedit as well.
I can absolutely tell when anauthor has shifted from there
are some tells, there are justsome clear tells beyond just a
tone shift and a style shift.
So I agree, I have the sameexperience and feeling and
(23:02):
thought as what you said.
I I I use it to create my dailyschedule.
Um, I'm a little conflictedright now because my daughter
told me over the weekend ingreat detail how horrible it is
for the environment.
So I feel you know a little.
I didn't fully understand thatand now I'm kind of like oh gosh
, but putting that to the side,cause that's a whole other
(23:25):
conversation.
I think it's great for research.
I think it's great for joggingan author's creativity If
they're just really strugglingnot to come up with what to say
but maybe how to say it andagain, not to plagiarize that,
but to just get them in thatspace it's.
I don't think it's that muchdifferent from putting on a
(23:46):
certain kind of music that getsyou kind of in the zone or going
for anything else that kind ofgets you in there, right, but I
do you think this will just be ablip where people get the idea
that they can write a whole book?
I'm seeing the ads for it nowtoo.
Like I wrote my whole 150 pagebook over the weekend with AI
and I just made three hundredand seventy two billion dollars
(24:08):
and, you know, bought aCybertruck and all these sorts
of things.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Are you seeing that?
Yeah, I'm hearing those peoplesay that, but I'm not actually
seeing that.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I'm not seeing that.
I hear those whispers but, likesomeone, show me those.
There's just no, there's nosubstitute to putting in the
work.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
There's, there's just not.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
I mean, believe me, I do.
I don't even know if I wishthere were, but there are
certain days, certainly, when Iwish there were.
No one wants to.
But here's the thing that Ithink is interesting, especially
in the space in which youoperate, is that the thought
leaders and the business leadersand the self-help professionals
who go out and have built acareer on the knowledge and the
(24:52):
experience that they now have.
It wasn't easy, and people are,and people know getting my PhD
isn't going to be easy, startinga restaurant is not going to be
easy, but for some reasonthere's still this kind of
thought that like, oh, but I canjust whip out a book.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
It doesn't happen, it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
It's one of the greatest things I work to kind
of dispel is that it's still abook, yeah, a book, yes, but not
a, not a good book.
Yeah, Bingo.
So what do you feel mostexcited about in the?
Do you consider hybrid indie?
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Um boy, these definitions sort of run together
.
Um, I, I don't necessarily um,but maybe you know, when I think
of indie, I think of, maybe, asmall traditional house.
Um, maybe that's, maybe that'swrong.
Um, uh, hybrid.
You know, I think the ibpa hasa list of criteria for hybrid
that, uh, that you know arepretty comprehensive and and the
main thing, and we're verystraightforward and transparent
(25:52):
about it uh, the hybrid modelmeans authors help fund the
creation, help fund the servicesthat are going into creating a
book.
We're providing distribution,we're providing marketing and in
exchange for that, the authorowns intellectual property.
All of it has full and finalcreative control, but we hope
they'll rely on our expertisealong the way and they'll get
(26:17):
higher royalties as a result.
So, like you know, those arethe things that are the top of
the list that I that I think ofwhen I think of hybrid.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
And are you guiding them when it comes to marketing
and or relying on them to do theheavy lifting and or relying on
them to do the heavy lifting,or I think that's one of the
biggest misconceptions.
Whether it's a traditionalhouse or a hybrid house is well.
I want to go with that, becausethey're going to do all my
marketing for me.
How do you all approach that?
Speaker 2 (26:43):
So pretty honest.
There too, author must beengaged in the marketing of his
book period.
It doesn't work otherwise, andthat's whether you're published
by Simon Schuster, by Amplify orAmazon, kdp, right, it's just
author must be engaged.
And so we do have a team ofbook marketers and we focus on
(27:07):
launching thought leadershiptitles and we put together a.
We have a program it's a fivemonth program to launch a book,
and you know we do good work.
Sometimes we get we get mediaplacement that we say wow too,
and we've had our authors thatyou know all the big, you know
morning shows and evening shows,and sometimes the books that
(27:30):
you think that are going to geta lot of traction and coverage
sometimes just don't as much asyou think.
And so we've got a good programand we've delivered good
results for a lot of people.
I wish we could say that.
You know we could guarantee itfor everybody that we work with.
But you still need somebody onthe other end to say, yes, I
want to give this book coverageon my podcast or my TV show, and
(27:54):
you know there are a hundredthings that an author should be
thinking about trying when itcomes to launching their book,
and on the front end.
You don't know which 20 ofthose hundred are actually going
to work, but it's important totry all hundred.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
And when it comes to bookstores, are you finding that
, in the space that you're in, alot of your authors are doing
more bulk sales, or are theyrelying on the one-off sales
from whether it's Amazon or abookshop or an actual physical
store?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
So I think that in our space, in the thought
leadership and business spacesjust the way the world is 70% of
books are going to be sold onAmazon.
I hate it, I don't like it, butit's just the way it is.
And these folks also have theopportunity to sell in bulk,
because they're speaking as partof their speaking arrangements
(28:46):
and they also can sell direct toconsumer as well, and so it's
usually a mix of Amazon,independence, bulk.
That's what we're seeing.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And what are you seeing with e-books and audio
books in those areasspecifically?
Of thought leadership.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yeah, I think that any prediction of the physical
book not being as importantdidn't turn out to be accurate,
because people still love thephysical form and I think that
what I've seen is, as the bookgrows in popularity, the
percentage of eBooks will riseand the percentage of audio
(29:26):
books will rise, because thesefolks don't necessarily have a
connection to the author Anyonewith a connection with the
author.
They want that physical book,and so you know it's.
It's not uncommon for us tosell 50% physical book and a 25%
ebook and 25% audio book for agiven title.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
And that makes me happy.
It's a great entry point.
I find the ebook because youcan.
It's harder to put a physicalbook on sale right, because it
eats into your profit margin,especially if you're selling
through another distributor orthrough a retailer.
But the ebook, and sometimeseven the audio book, are easier
(30:06):
for an author to sell direct toconsumer, right off their
website or you know.
In any event there's no printfee.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
So you kind of remove that from the equation.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
That's right.
That's right.
And you know different umdifferent ways forward.
Uh, makes sense for differentauthors, right, and and so, like
we work with people all overthe globe and for them a print
on demand approaches is, is justmakes more sense.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Right, Trying to you know, do you do a mix?
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Yeah, is it print?
Speaker 1 (30:36):
on demand and you have a print run as well.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, so I would say most of our um authors demand
physical books.
Um, so that's where you knowthe vast majority of our work is
and hope we are flexible inthat.
Uh, on occasion we'll do printon demand.
We'll also switch fromhardcover to paperback and
subsequent runs.
So it's a mix.
Really, what is best for theproject?
Speaker 1 (31:00):
What makes the most sense for that particular
product.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
You know what are you most excited about talking
about right now in the space,what really gets you excited to
have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Yeah, so you know, we did do this incredible.
Author.
Roi survey.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
It was the first of its kind.
We interviewed 300 authors andyou know we've talked a lot
anecdotally about and we've doneit on this podcast about the
value of a book, but this was anopportunity to put some real
research behind it and wepartnered with the folks, with
our friends over at SmithPublicity, gotham Ghost Writers
(31:39):
and a gentleman named JoshBernoff who is quite influential
in the nonfiction space andhe's technically minded and he
led the survey, and I shouldalso mention our friends at
Thought Leadership Leverage aswell, and so we all came
together and we said, hey,wouldn't it be great if we
actually put the survey together?
And what we found sort ofreally confirmed a lot of the
(32:02):
anecdotal data that are theanecdotal thoughts that we've
all been talking about in termsof you know why a book makes
sense and when it makes sense,and so I'm super excited about
talking about that.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
That's one thing.
And then these conversations.
I could talk all day long.
I know Right what.
What came back from that?
I think I, if I read itcorrectly, it was like a dollar
twenty four on average return.
Is that correct?
For every dollar spent?
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yeah, yeah.
And so what we did is we triedto separate, you know, the
self-published authors versusthe hybrid published authors and
the traditionally publishedauthors, and so we came up with
some real data for that wereapplicable for each, and what we
found is, of course, there's noright or wrong answer.
That wasn't the point here.
Right, there's some strengthsin some areas where one was
(32:54):
stronger than the other, butalso there was a trade-off
between, you know, obviously, ahybrid.
You can spend a lot of money,so you'd expect that you're
going to have a better return.
The self-publishing isrelatively low cost, and so what
we found is the return wascommensurate with a low cost,
right?
And so, again, no, you know,I'm not favoring one side over
(33:18):
the other.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
But that's.
Those are some of the reallyinteresting things, and so
anyone listening here theyshould go to.
Author ROIcom.
Download the download thesurvey for free.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I'll put a link in the episode notes because it's
pretty interesting.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
What was there?
Any result that reallysurprised you?
Traditional publishedpublishing deals, right, no
advances.
And then, on top of that, therewas an expectation of an author
buyback if the book didn't sellX number of copies.
Yes, so you know, in thesesituations the authors would be,
you know, maybe worse offfinancially than had they just
(34:08):
gone with a hybrid or done itthemselves.
And so the number of authortraditionally published authors
deals with zero advance wassomething like 30, 35% in our
survey, which is representativeof what's going on right now, so
that surprised me.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Well, I a couple of things have surprised me.
One is that the advances aregoing down and I this is
certainly not across the board.
I mean it is across the board,but I'm not Jen Iize.
But one of the things that Ithink I've heard a couple of
authors say who aretraditionally published is they
don't mind that because itallows them to A earn out, which
is always the mark of airquotes, success in the
(34:48):
traditional world, and then Bthey might have more royalties
coming to them down the line, asopposed to feeling this
pressure to earn out asix-figure advance within the
first six to eight weeks, whichcan feel very challenging.
But I've heard the same thatyou've heard where and I've seen
it happen to a couple of peoplethey've invested in the or it's
(35:12):
a traditional deal in the sensethat they didn't make an
investment but they were tosplit the royalties, say 50-50
or 60-40.
And then it was like oh, but ifyou don't sell 3,000 copies by
such and such a date, not justvia a retailer but via the
publisher's website specifically, that's where they had to sell
(35:33):
and no one wanted to buy therebecause it was full price, as
opposed to Amazon where theywere getting some sort of a
discount and free shipping.
So then they get a bill for$15,000 or $20,000.
And all of a sudden, what wasonce free?
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yep, yep, I've heard those stories as well.
So, and then some of the otherissues that I'm talking about
and hearing a lot of is, uh, youknow, frustration with Amazon,
um, uh, small publishers andauthors, you know just not uh
having visibility on on sales,and, um, you know, uh, them
(36:09):
taking a huge amount in terms ofwholesale fees.
Uh, you know, going down andit's just, it's it's difficult,
amazon's difficult.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Do you all, do any of your authors, ever run ads on
Amazon, or do you guysparticipate that in that at all?
Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah, we do as a strategy.
What's?
Speaker 1 (36:24):
your experience with that?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
For um, you know what it's.
It's actually one thing on thatplatform that I really like, uh
, because you can tweak the ad,spend you can tweak the keywords
and they'll give you metrics.
That says you know what, forevery dollar you spend, we can
show you you got $1.50 back.
And whereas social media adsthe metrics aren't as solid,
(36:48):
because you can spend $100 onFacebook ads and not really know
the ROI on actual booksellersAmazon, you do.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
Well, there are two things, though, that are
complicated.
One is that they report yoursales, which is not the same as
your profit.
So, your A cost, your averagecost of spend, is actually not a
great reflection necessarily ofyour profit margin, because it
doesn't take into account whatyour print cost is and the
amount that Amazon is taking.
But here's the other thing thatI've noticed there and that I
think is in crazy is that Amazonunder reports seemingly, um,
(37:24):
and this is to their detrimentyour sales based on ads.
So I had with my last book Ididn't, I think I had like one
sale, my most book.
I had sold one in the monthbefore I started running ads.
And the month I ran ads.
I sold 84.
But according to Amazon'sreporting, I had only sold like
(37:45):
38.
And there was nothing else thatI could point to in terms of
why would this book now bemoving.
I wasn't running meta ads, Iwasn't promoting via ads, I
wasn't promoting via socialmedia, nothing.
The only thing I was doingdifferently was running those
Amazon ads.
I love Amazon ads, for therecord, because they're super
low cost.
And I was just curious.
You know, you do start to feela bit like a needle in a
(38:07):
haystack and I think that inthat genre thought leadership
you're really in, I mean, in theentrepreneurial category.
Some of the suggested keywordsare like $6 a click, so I would
be losing three hours, you know.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
That's right.
That's right, and but the thingalso about Amazon AdWords is
you can bet on keywords relatedto your book, but also comp
titles.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
There you go, so so you got two swings there.
And do you find that that'simportant for your authors to
know?
Okay, what lane is my book inLike?
If you liked this, you willlike my book.
Is that an important?
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Yeah, yeah for sure.
And and particularly if you'rein this seemingly obscure lane,
like I was talking to somebodytoday who's got a book on
procurement right, and like itsounds like a yawner, right, but
procurement is a big dealacross a lot of companies, right
.
And so I went on Amazon andthis is before our conversation
(39:14):
and I looked at all the books onprocurement.
I was like there's not a damnbook that's worth anything on
procurement.
I was like this is anopportunity for you.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Right.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
And so like knowing your lane and knowing comp
titles, very important and beingrealistic.
Being realistic about your comptitles Like look, atomic Habits
is probably not a comp titlefor you.
Let them.
Mel Robbins' latest is probablynot the right comp for you.
Let's be Right.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Well, and also knowing what keywords your ideal
person is searching when theygo to Amazon for a book on
procurement.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Like you've really got to start to speak the
language of your reader.
I don't care what genre you'vewritten, you've got to have or
gain over time, becausesometimes it takes a lot of time
to hone this.
But like, what are the?
I don't even like to use theword buzzword, but what are they
?
What's in their brain whenthey're out there and they're
looking for a book onprocurement?
Speaker 2 (40:12):
Oh yeah, you got to know the maybe procurement is at
the top.
You got to know the two orthree words underneath
procurement Exactly.
Those are where you want to putyour check, exactly.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Well, and also, you know Amazon can float their ads
outside of the Amazon ecosystemtoo.
So also knowing, for example,what are people searching on
Google when they're looking forhelp with procurement, because
I'm telling you, eight times outof 10, if I search for
something like I can't eventhink of anything right now.
You know how to survive the dayit's going to.
(40:42):
The first Google response isgoing to take me to Amazon.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
That's right.
It's a.
I mean, like them or not,they're here, Amazon, they are
here and they are not.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
They are not going anywhere and it's tough because
as a consumer, they're easy tolove.
I can have something on mydoorstep in 45 minutes, but as a
business person, we wrestle, Iwrestle anyway.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
That's the nicest thing we can say is we wrestle?
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Look, we're trying to be.
Yeah, well, thank you.
Is there anything else that youwant to?
You know, get out there aboutany of this.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
No, I really enjoyed it and, um, you know, I love uh,
I've grown to love the world ofbooks, because this is not my,
this is not my background, andso, um, I can have these
conversations all day long andit's something that I'm
passionate about.
It's something that my this isnot my background, and so I can
have these conversations all daylong and it's something that
I'm passionate about.
It's something that my, my teamis passionate about, and I, if
I could give a plug, I got agreat team and so I'm so glad to
(41:43):
hear that.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I mean it's, it's one of the greatest I think like
within this space.
I don't sometimes it well, alot of times it reminds me of
Hollywood a lot, where behindthe curtain we think it's all
roses and butterflies andunicorns and all this and it's
really not.
And so when you can find asegment of it, of the book
publishing industry, that's justso.
I love the connections and thecommunity and the conversations
(42:07):
and the open-minded nature Ifyou can find that and even
better, if you can curate it ina team where, when you start
hearing about those companies,those are the companies people
want to work with.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Yeah, yeah, well, well, thank you.
And and I will say that, uh, asa group, authors are incredibly
generous with their time andtheir advice with other authors
because, um, you know, it's kindof lonely going through it and
you learn a lot going through it.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
And with their support and the support you know
I don't feel like it's ascompetitive and cutthroat it can
be in certain genres and we'veall seen that play out.
But what I tend to gravitatetoward is where there's a lot of
generosity of spirit and justpay it backward, pay it forward
sideways, you know, and there'sa lot of that in this space.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, and so you know was I surprised that 300
authors contributed to thisauthor ROI survey.
Big number, but it goes to showyou that people really are
invested not only in theirsuccess, but other people as
well.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
And the honesty and the transparency I mean that's
the thing that I've loved mostabout doing this podcast is how
willing authors are to be fullytransparent, whether they're New
York Times bestsellers or justtrying to get through chapter
one of their very first book.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
There's not a lot of posturing, and at least not
around here, so I love that.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Also, as we said when we started it's, it's a
humbling experience, right, andso so, uh, you carry that with
with you and uh you want to helpthose that uh come after you.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
I always ask people last what are you reading now?
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Oh my gosh, I've got a stack of manuscripts right now
.
That's what I'm reading.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Okay, fair enough Fair enough.
What's what's come out recentlyfrom Amplify that you're really
excited about?
You want to plug one of those,yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
You know what?
I will plug one, and it's anunconventional one.
So one of our authors, ursKoenig.
He wrote a book called RadicalHumility and it's a great book.
It's a thought leadership book.
He's a leadership expert, butwhat he did after that is what's
noteworthy.
He took copious notes everystep in the publishing process
(44:24):
and he wrote an ebook that he'sgiving away free download about.
It's called the HybridPublishing Handbook.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Oh, nice about.
It's called the Hybrid.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
Publishing Handbook.
Oh nice it is.
You know, in the spirit ofgenerosity and helping others,
it's maybe 80 page book abouthybrid publishing and so if you
go to his website, I didn'tthink I was going to plug his
website.
But here we go, urs Koenig,u-r-s-k-o-e-n-i-gcom and search
for the Hybrid PublishingHandbook.
It is his experience as a firsttime author and what he learned
(44:56):
going through the process.
It's worth a read.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
And I'll definitely put it in the show notes.
And it's free, it's free andit's.
And even if it weren't, I thinkit's so there is no one.
This is how it always goes.
Yes, so the best thing thatthat I can do for myself.
I know, and I is read a lot ofdifferent experiences and I
truly going back a little bit towhat we said a second ago I
(45:19):
love that authors are oftenwilling to say look, this is my
experience, so this doesn't meandon't go with this person, or
do go, or if you go with thisperson, you're going to have the
same experience I had.
It's just, this is myexperience.
And we need all of those sothat people can get the full
breadth of what this is allreally about.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, yeah, you could have said that, yeah,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Well, thank you for creating the time and sharing
your experience.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
I've really enjoyed it and let's do it again soon.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Let's absolutely do it again soon.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message, but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
(46:13):
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
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