April 16, 2025 • 50 mins
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What do a flooded house, a nine-month (and still going) renovation, and a debut novel have in common? Angelika Morini.
In this episode, Angelika shares what it actually looked like to finish her first novel, Do You See Me Now?—while living in chaos (read: house stripped to the studs). We talk about why character development can feel a lot like falling in love with someone mysterious and how launching a book is less of a finish line and more like Mile One of a marathon you didn’t know you signed up for.
EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS:
- The (not so) glamorous reality of writing and editing during a home renovation from hell
- Why marketing Book One while dreaming up Book Two can feel like a bit of a tightrope act
- The decision to write in English (even though she’s German)
- Weaving the complexities of post-reunification Germany into her novel
- The way she allowed her characters to show up and surprise her (no outline, no problem!)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in.
Be sure to reveal that a resulttook eight years or required a
$30,000 investment in ads,because those details are just
as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:10):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Well, hi, everybody, andwelcome back or welcome in.
It's always fun for me to talkto somebody who engaged in a
massive home renovation whilstworking on their book or working
on the editing of their book.
What's not fun is when they'reworking on a major home
renovation.
That was unexpected, becausethe whole house flooded right as
the book was being finished andthen right as it went into edit
(01:33):
.
I don't know if there's a worsetime, but that's exactly what
happened to Angelica Marini,whose book Do you See Me Now?
It's her debut novel.
I had the great privilege ofediting.
I absolutely loved this book,highly recommend it and, of
course, I've got a link to itdown in the episode notes.
And Angelica, who writes underthe name A Marini, really,
(01:57):
really, really stayed committedto honing this manuscript when
she had absolutely everyunderstandable and justifiable
reason to say I'm going to needto put this on hold for about
six months.
So I would get emails from herthat would be answers to
questions or some edits that shehad made right along with.
Well, today we got hardwoodfloors put in, and that was
(02:19):
after several months of not evenbeing able to live in the house
because, again, it had beenflooded.
So I'm thrilled that we finallyhad the opportunity to sit down
and chat about the writing ofit, about her characters and how
they evolved, which was areally interesting part of the
conversation.
Angelica is German and she wrotethe book in English, which is
also something that we chattedabout, and it's also made the
(02:41):
marketing of the bookinteresting because, as someone,
she lives in Germany, she isGerman and while her primary
language in her home and in herwork is English, most people who
live in Germany are speakingGerman, so she's not only got to
find a way to get the book outto people, but she has to find a
way to get the book out topeople who might be German but
speak and read in English, sothat's added a little extra
(03:06):
legwork to the whole marketinggame.
I've put all of Angelica'slinks and all of the resources
that we talked about in theepisode notes, so let's just get
right on with the conversation.
Full disclosure I edited Do youSee Me Now?
Right?
So because I edited it, I'mintimately familiar with what
(03:28):
was going on in your world whilewe were trying to get this
whole thing finished, all thethings that were happening, all
the things that were happening.
And I love this because I don'tlove it.
It's so easy for us as writersto be like I can't do this right
now.
I have other things going on,and to say you had other things
(03:48):
going on is a bit of anunderstatement.
I had other things going on.
Yes, like a major houserenovation, that was unexpected.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So my house got flooded and,and there's normal life too.
No, I mean I, when I talk toother other people, of course
there's like oh, you have a job,oh, you're a mom, or you're
this, that and the other.
So that in itself I always feel.
When I see it in other people,I'm like, how do you even, like,
I read people's read count.
You know how many pages theyread this week?
(04:18):
Right, and I'm so impressed,like, how do they even, right,
how do they even, right, managedto to read that that much, not
to mention write something?
And, yeah, our house gotflooded.
That wasn't planned, and then wehad to renovate two-thirds of
it and we're still like,literally, uh, since we last
spoke, so I think two days ago,they put the baseboards down in
the in the ground floor.
So the basement, ignore thebasement.
(04:39):
We have doors now so we canclose it and ignore the basement
.
So eight months, in nine months, it's a full pregnancy.
Uh, into the journey.
We're still not done, but, butindeed so I, I refinished our
editing, um, I took your courseon how to launch the book.
I launched the book and youknow, the other day, uh,
(05:00):
probably yesterday only I readthis quote like or was it a
video by I don't know MelRobbins or somebody you know
like?
You're not an imposter, you area beginner.
And I keep telling myself thathow did I not think about what
happens after you launch a book?
You know, I was so focused onjust getting to launch date and
(05:23):
just finishing this, finish theedit phase, finish the launch
phase and it's like having, likehaving a baby right, and then
you have the baby and like, ohmy god, nobody told what, like,
you have to do something right?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
well it's.
You know I and you commented onthis um weeks ago.
I put on my stories a questionas a published author for those
of you who are published what doyou wish you had known?
Or something in that vein.
And every single response,angelica, every single one, was
(05:55):
not just me, yeah, it was notjust you, was I wish I knew.
And it was some variation of,like you know that that so much
marketing was going to beinvolved, or that the launch is
just the beginning.
Or I say let's not talk aboutthat right now to a huge degree,
(06:26):
because if you don't have abook out, then we don't have a
book to promote.
So we have to take it in phasesand let's focus on where our
feet are right now, which is inthe writing or in the editing.
And yet I also encourage peopleand we talked about this to
start talking about your book.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
True, and I mean you have this whole course on like
what to do to when you, how tolaunch a book, right, Right, I
honestly admit I did not look atit because all I wanted to do
is, besides my construction siteand normal life being crazy,
just to hit the launch button.
That's all I wanted and I waslike I'm going to figure it out
when I get there.
And then I got there, I waslike, oh darn, you know, there's
(07:08):
all these things that I couldhave done, should have done, but
I'm just trying to becompassionate with myself
because even if I had known, I'mnot sure I actually could have
done them in that moment.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
You know, the whole could have, would have, should
have thing is really a challenge, because I don't think I'm very
conscientious about remindingpeople, including myself,
there's Monday morning.
Quarterbacking is a real thingin in every industry, I think,
and we can look back and say,well, if I would have done that,
(07:40):
this might have been easier andtherefore I should have done
that.
And I don't think that's reallya fair statement, because I
think we're all doing the bestthat we can with the knowledge
and the time that we have.
And so, yes, for your next book, you will probably choose to do
something, but that's how weall grow in this, in this
(08:00):
industry.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So like what?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
was most overwhelming for you.
What did you expect to happenwhen you launched the book?
That didn't happen?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I didn't.
Honestly, I didn't expect toomuch and I tend to not do that
because I, I think I have amajor fear of being disappointed
.
So I tend to not like expectanything.
Right, I try and then, secretly, we do expect something On the
surface.
On the surface, you know.
Know.
I was sure this was not goingto be Oprah's book like
(08:30):
recommendation of the next month, right.
So I didn't expect a lot tohappen.
But what I literally didn'texpect is probably the work I
now have to put in right and thethe the different like ways to
you can promote a book.
So I, I talked with my husband.
I said the first few weeks kindof threw me off a bit, um,
(08:53):
because I felt a bit overwhelmedwith how, how am I like?
I, I want to be a writer, I ama writer, right, but but now I
have to be all these, to yourpoint, I have to be all these
other things.
I have to be a book.
But now I have to be all these.
To your point, I have to be allthese other things.
I have to be a book promoter.
I have to be an Instagramexpert.
I have to be a marketeer.
I have to be, you know, uh,somebody who writes amazing
emails to their followership.
(09:13):
That isn't existent at thebeginning, right?
So?
So who am I writing this to?
How do I find these people?
So so that I found a bitoverwhelming because, on the one
hand, it's something new, soI'm a beginner, so I don't quite
, I'm not in my territory, I'mnot in my comfort zone, which is
fine because that's where wegrow and on the other hand, it
(09:34):
isn't exactly what I most enjoy.
So, you know, in my head, kindof book number two is forming
and shaping, and I find that soexciting and I want to get back
to writing, you know.
But then in the few minutesthat I literally have in a day,
I'm doing something on Instagram.
So that's, I guess that's.
I didn't expect that because itwas just not part of my world
(09:59):
yet.
And now that I know, I thinknext time I will go about it
with more planning, moreconscious and also with more
ease and peace.
I guess you know, and just Iknow it's not a sprint, I know
it's a marathon, and people saythat, you say that, and I'm
starting to understand what itmeans, right, because it, you
(10:19):
know, but in a good way, in agood way, in a way that gives me
more peace of mind, you knowbecause and patience exactly,
and I know I said this to youwhen we talked during the
editing phase.
To me, success was just writingthe book.
That was my success, because Ididn't even know I was writing a
(10:42):
book until I was writing a book, and then, only only when it
was done, I was like I want todo something with it now and
that's when we started workingtogether.
Yeah, so I think success isalso working through all my
anxiety about publishing a bookand everything.
So the fact that I wrote a book, I published a book, it's out
there, it's a fact.
You know that NSF, that success.
(11:02):
And now I have, you know, firstpeople reading it, first
responses, and that's success.
And then success right now isthese small steps and steps,
continuous steps every day, andmaybe in the future success is
something different or bigger,but right now I'm just trying to
give myself some space tobreathe and not feel like I have
(11:22):
to run at 180 miles an hour andnot feel like I have to run at
180 miles an hour.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I mean I think you have to and I hate that phrase
like have to, must should need.
You know, these are words andphrases that I strafe, like I
try really hard to stay awayfrom them.
I just think, for our ownmental health, we really do have
to.
We don't have to do anyparticular thing, but we do have
to make a choice about what thething is that we're going to do
(11:49):
.
So right Like on social mediaplatforms.
The idea and I'm so glad thatmore and more people are saying
this now, at least the peopleI'm listening to- and I'm
probably listening to them for areason, like you don't have to
be on Instagram, tiktok, and I'mprobably listening to them for
a reason, like you don't have tobe on Instagram, tiktok X,
youtube Like you don't have tobe.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And that's so.
I heard you say that on otherpeople and that's so soothing,
because I couldn't if I wantedto, and the only literally.
I'm not a social media person.
I swear.
I don't have any social mediaaccounts, except my cat has an
Instagram account.
That's the only reason.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I know how.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Instagram works.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Well, has an Instagram account.
That's the only reason I knowhow Instagram works.
Well.
What's so funny is when youwould comment on my and I'd go
to like my report or whateverwhatever you call that thing
where it says people havecommented and it would say Eva
the cat and I would have to dothis conversion in my head.
So I don't know if you oranyone listening does this, but
we get to know people based ontheir handle, not on their
actual name.
(12:45):
So now I know you.
You're in jail, and now I havean official pro, like I have a
profile right, like you're areal, but for so long it would
be like, oh, there's even a catagain, like that's how I knew
you, um, you know.
And so if there's anotherperson and oh, I know who I'm
thinking of, it's NL Blanford.
I hope I'm getting that nameright, but her given name is
(13:06):
Natasha, but her handle onInstagram is NL Blanford and she
comments a lot on my stuff andshe's just delightful.
She's actually coming on thepodcast in a couple of weeks to
talk about her novels and I justcall her NL, not now.
Now I call her Natasha, but forthe longest time I'd be like
there's a no, because that's howwe.
So it's such an interesting.
(13:26):
That's a whole separateconversation about the
interesting world of socialmedia.
But to your point, it is enoughwork to stay.
I guess I don't want to sayrelevant, but to stay active on
just on one platform.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, absolutely, and I wouldn't.
I mean on Instagram.
In fact, I met this otherwriter and we're exchanging and
we're exchanging tips, and I'mso impressed because I think she
chose to let go of her job,move to the wilderness, and I
think so.
I want to quote it right.
(14:02):
I think it's Kelly in thewilderness, I think it's her
handle, so I I want to quote itright.
I think it's kelly in thewilderness, I think it's her
handler, but I do want to quoteit right.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
and she just launched her fantasy book okay,
stormbound, I think and I'lllook it up and put it in the
episode notes so we can allfollow kelly from the wilderness
.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I'll send you the right links and then we can do
this properly.
But I think she chose to focusonly on this you know, and
really immerse herself in thewriting and really immerse
herself in pushing her book.
She's got the draft for booktwo ready already.
You know how amazing is that.
She's looking for agents and ofcourse that's the way to go,
(14:40):
you know, and sometimes I'mwondering should I be doing that
?
But right now I have a day joband and apart from a child and a
child exactly, and a house torenovate.
But you know, so I think there'sand there's.
None of these are right orwrong, they're just different.
But they kind of determine the24 hours you have in the day
that you can then dedicate to,to marketing your book, to doing
(15:03):
all these other amazing things.
And just for me, it's a factthat I only have so many minutes
in the day where I cancreatively think about this.
And it's not just you don'twant to just repost the cover of
your book, right?
You want to kind of engage andhave like some level of content
and grow your followership andall that.
(15:24):
And I'm really only learning todo that.
And so there's only so muchtime, unfortunately, I can spend
, and inside of me, what I wouldreally love to do is just sit
down at my computer and write,you know.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
As would all of us.
Exactly.
I really think, like the morepeople I talk to, we love, we
all seemingly and I don't meanto generalize, but this does
seem like the majority lovecertain things A, writing, b, I
mean except when we don't and Bconnecting right, Connecting
with.
So if you're doing an event, abook event, to connect with
(15:59):
people, it's not a slimy thinglike well, I'm connecting so I
can sell you my book.
It's just we love that genuineconnection and conversation.
And so sometimes social mediasits like in the middle of those
two things.
Because, if you're trying, I'vebeen watching your social media
evolve and it's been fun because, again, when we first connected
(16:22):
, you were Eva the cat.
I know you have this beautiful,very soft looking gray cat who
I'm assuming his name is Eva yes, okay, with two E's.
So from there you started likedipping your toe in and and
showing the cover of your bookand things, and then from there
you started doing some reels andyou started showing other
(16:43):
author and like what are youreading right now?
And you just I'm watching, youwatch other people and get
inspired and think, well, howcould I do something like that?
And so that's what we all do istry.
I mean, you know that's whatthe majority does I don't want
to say everyone, but so I wantto ask you a questions.
(17:03):
Do you see me now?
I loved so, so much, and one ofthe things that I'm noticing
about myself as a reader and asan editor, but specifically as a
reader right now, is I'm reallyenjoying memoir that reads like
fiction.
So I believe that memoir needsto read like fiction across the
board, like period, but it'salmost when someone takes
(17:25):
creative liberties where theirmemoir is, they don't need it to
be clear that it's their story.
So they take their story andthey turn it into fiction.
So it's like it's like aninspired by, not a based on,
type thing, and that's how I saw.
Do you See Me Now?
And I'm curious.
(17:46):
I mean, is that how you see?
Do?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
You See Me Now, in between, I would say I've never
written a memoir, obviously, butthe story that I'm telling is
not my life, so in that way it'snot a memoir.
Clearly it's a fictional storyor fictional characters.
But I do think, and I have tothink every author does that no,
(18:08):
and maybe not.
Maybe, if you're really intoworld building and I don't know,
you set your story on adifferent planet.
Maybe not so much, but eventhen I would imagine that every
author tells some sort ofuniversal truth or something
that people can relate to.
Otherwise it's not an engagingstory.
So either that and or, um, ittells something I can't imagine.
(18:29):
None of the other authors puttheir own little stories in
there, their own memories, theirown, you know.
So, so that that is where itall gets very, very blended and
it's not.
It's not a memoir, right, it's afictional story.
Of course, I drew on part of myown experiences.
So obviously, part of the storyis set in Eastern Germany.
(18:51):
So recent German history, right, and the experiences that
people went through, and I'm nottrying to describe my
experience, but I think there'ssome universal truth to
experiences of people that theyhad, oh my gosh, 100%.
And so I'm trying to conveythat.
(19:12):
But obviously a lot of thefeelings, a lot of some of the
memories are mine, and then someare entirely uniquely invented,
like characters that just cameto me and I think we talked when
we were talking about, youstarted writing your next book
and you know how about?
I don't know.
Do you see the story all upfront?
(19:34):
I'm not like this book grew byitself.
It came very organically.
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Wow, can you pass some of that over here, because
it is not happening over here.
Angelica, it's not happening.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And for me, wrote itself.
Yes, it just wrote itself out.
And every time you I was realmad a question I should say.
You would say something likebut yeah, but where are you
going with this, or why is thischaracter doing this?
And I thought I had it on paper, I just didn't.
But the moment you asked me, Isaw it, it's clear, like a movie
(20:08):
, and I just had to write it out, right.
So so it's really like a movieplaying in my head and then all
these pieces come together andthen we had to write it out,
right.
So it's really like a movieplaying in my head and then all
these pieces come together andthen we had to shuffle them
around a bit to fit them in theright places, and that's how
that came about.
So I wouldn't say it's a memoir,but it certainly is inspired by
me.
And if you ask me, who am I,I'm in all of these characters.
(20:31):
Part of me is in all of thesecharacters.
You know which I think is isprobably I don't know, maybe
it's normal, maybe it's notnormal, but I couldn't put
myself as one person in thisbook, because I'm not.
I'm a part of this person.
I'm a part of this person.
I wish I was this person, youknow, and I wish I had this
person.
So I wrote it in my book.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So yeah, that just gave me like all the, the, the,
the goosebumps, because I Irecognize to a degree that
that's what I'm doing, becauseI'm actually exploring all these
different facets of myself, butI'm exploring them Like I'm
(21:17):
writing.
You know, in my authorcommunity last week someone said
you're, you're writing the,you're working on the book and
the book is working on you, andI thought it was a beautiful way
to express a sentiment thatwe've all been talking about for
a long time, which is like youwrite your way, you come up with
(21:38):
questions while you're writing,it's like what, and so that
experience is different foreveryone.
But did you feel that at allwith these characters?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
The way you're describing it right now sounds
like it's an intellectualexercise.
You come up with a question,try to answer the question're
exploring, I think, for me, theprocess and the way I started
out and I told you this right,because I'm qualified as a
conscious parenting coach in DrShefali's institute and I know
one of the other authors too.
Janet Filber and I went throughher program and it just really
(22:07):
reconnected me with a lot of myemotions, with my feelings, and
I started writing as a way toexpress my feelings, feel my
feelings and literally, kind of,you know, it's like this
three-dimensional thing that youcan hold in your hand, you can
turn it around by writing aboutit.
No, and I wish you know, youcan't have the gesture in an
(22:29):
audio, but you get the pointright.
So you get to look at it.
So we're gesturing.
Yeah, exactly, you get to lookat it from different angles, you
get to explore it.
And that's how I startedwriting.
And when I realized this mightbe a book, you know, I was
hoping.
I guess my first hope for thebook was that it would make
people feel something.
(22:49):
Because it made me feelsomething, feel something,
because it made me feelsomething.
And, to answer your question, Ithink I came at many of these
questions not from anintellectual but from a feeling
level.
The feeling was there and thenI started to describe it and I
built the scene around thefeeling.
So I don't know, I'm hopingthat the book conveys some
feelings, because otherwise Ididn't go a good job.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
And the other thing I told you and I told I told you
this while while I was editingit, and I I this is another
aspect of books, fiction orotherwise, that I absolutely
love is when I can learn.
You know, I'm not inherently ahistory, what someone would call
a history buff.
However, I have found that Ilove to learn about history
(23:35):
because something that someonewrites about intrigues me and I
think I want to know more aboutthat, and so I was asking you
lots of questions.
I mean, I needed someclarification, because you do
talk in the beginning about theEastern and Western Germany, and
I found myself being reallycurious about that Germany.
And I found myself being reallycurious about that and then
(23:56):
also realizing that, as you saida few minutes ago, you being
German, right, you know thehistory of that, whereas the
reader might not ie me.
And so how can we, withoutmaking it a book, a history book
, without making it bland andsterile, and, like you know, the
war happened, how can we infusethe book with some of that
(24:19):
information that might even leadthe reader to become more
curious?
I mean, not more than you needit for the story, right, and
there's a fine balance there,but it really intrigued me, like
it really made me think aboutyour main characters.
You know Hannah, your maincharacter, her her journey in a.
She had some different likeinternal conflicts going on,
(24:43):
just based on how and where shewas raised, and I think that
that's something that so manypeople today are navigating too.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I think many people, I have to think, that grew up in
Eastern Germany probably havethat at some level.
I mean, I made it more of anextreme story, right To bring
the point across.
Not everybody was affected inthat way, but I do think that if
you grew up in a certain wayand I saw both, because I was
still a child when Germany wasreunited, so I saw how Eastern
(25:14):
Germany ticked there was a lotof indoctrination, you know, and
actually the other day I wasjoking with my parents If you
look at the comic books that thechildren got, there was the
Russian soldiers in there whowere your friends and you know,
like early on in kindergartenyou would read the stuff and it
was normal, right, and so therewas this kind of indoctrination
(25:34):
from the start.
You grew up in the system andyou thought this is the, this is
the right system, right, andthen it collapses and you learn
this.
There's another system thatkind of took over, because now
they're right and we were wrong.
And I think it affected manypeople.
And so I was a child, I wasnine years old when Germany got
reunited.
Um, obviously many people whowere older, or even young people
(25:57):
, but who were older, maybe intheir adolescence or something,
maybe I might have perceived iteven more, might have perceived
also the, the restrictions ofthe system, a lot more than I
did as a child, right, but Iwanted to to capture that.
At first it wasn't even thatbig of a part of my story, but
then I was I realized that, like, but I wanted to capture that,
at first it wasn't even that bigof a part of my story, but then
I realized that.
But I have to explain where allthis comes from.
(26:19):
And then I was thinking butwhere does it come from?
And only then did I realize Ihave to put that on paper,
because otherwise why wouldpeople understand the conflict
of the hero or heroine?
Heroine sounds like a drug, butthat's how you pronounce it,
right.
Maybe we should add that in nowit does.
Yeah, yeah, well, and I andthat was.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
That was one of the pieces that we worked on um a
bit.
You know was?
It was there, but it wasn'tthere enough right at the
beginning to make it clear whyHannah was having these
challenges with going to and I'mnot going to give away anything
, obviously, but going to Europe.
(27:02):
And then you know where sheends up and why she feels kind
of stuck and stagnant and likeI'm at a crossroads, where are
we going?
And I think that's just such arelatable feeling right now for
so many women of my age.
Certainly it's like okay, herewe are, somehow, now what's next
(27:23):
?
Right, and I?
I told you that I and this is abold statement to make, because
one of my favorite books and myfavorite stories is the
Alchemist, and I really felt theenergy of I'm not comparing
your book to the Alchemist, I'mnot anythinging that but I felt
that same energy.
(27:44):
Like in the Alchemist the maincharacter is a boy and it's a
male character, and in your bookit's a female character and I I
just felt that same energy.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And that's such an honor.
I wasn't thinking about it whenI wrote it.
Sure, of course you brought itup, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Obviously, very, very I know, because you were like,
oh God, is that bad, like isthis going to be right?
No, it just that's what itbrought up for me.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, and it just that's what it brought up for me
.
I, yeah, and you know, I thinkyou were saying like being at a
point where you're like where doI go from here?
But I think it's also to reallyunderstand what got me here.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I think this is how much how the book starts.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
No, like looking like introversion.
Looking back, what got me here?
How did I get here?
Before I take my next step, Ireally want to get it because I
need to understand myself,otherwise I might just go in the
next wrong direction again.
You know, and I don't want todo that so kind of really deep
diving into yourself and it's um, I'm, I started a reading round
(28:43):
.
It's not close yet.
So in Germany there's it'ssomething like books route or
something like that in in the U?
S, but in Germany it's calledlovely books, and so you can put
, you know, 20 books up for araffle and you give people a
question to answer and theneverybody can apply and then you
pick the people who win thebook and they review the book
afterwards oh, okay and thequestion that I posed is because
(29:04):
in the book, hannah takes hersister on a hero journey, right?
so I just asked a simplequestion who would you take on a
hero journey?
And I'm not even sure manypeople know what a hero journey
is, but I'm getting amazinganswers.
You know, everybody is likereally by themselves, to really
like focus on themselves.
Some people won't take theirmom, some people won't take
their best friend.
Several people said I'm goingto take my partner, but then
(29:26):
maybe I go alone.
Right, right, one person wantedto take their dog.
So amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
And right right, one person wanted to take their dog.
So amazing and but everythingis.
I have a friend who'd want totake her bird like we won't even
get into that.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Right, cats, cats is always good.
A hero journey is such a to meand I did a hero journey, so,
and that's how, how I put it inthe book, because right that
firsthand what is that servicecalled?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
you, said it's one thing in germany and one thing
in the us.
What is it oh?
It's called lovely, said it'sone thing in Germany and one
thing in the US.
What is it oh?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
it's called lovely books.
It's just a platform whereeverybody shares book reviews
and um but this is I think it'sspecifically German, if I'm not
mistaken.
Okay, but you pointed me to toother such it's.
It's probably like good similarto goodreads.
Okay, yeah, exactly it's like agood gotcha, and there I'm only
just starting out.
Okay, I'm like learning, likeall the platforms and everything
(30:18):
, and what can you do where?
And when I found this, Ithought this was so nice because
you can make it a bit of a yeah, you get to pick the people who
actually will review your bookbased on.
Also, you can see what otherbooks they reviewed, and that
Okay, okay, first, they show aninterest in your book based on.
Also, you can see what otherbooks they reviewed and that
okay.
Okay, first they show aninterest in your book, they
apply, basically, and then,depending on how many, so
interesting, I don't know, ifyou're giving away five books,
(30:39):
you might get many more.
If you're giving away 100 books, maybe you don't get 100
applications, but so I I'mcurrently have this reading
around going and I thoughtthat's a it's a nice way of
doing it, so I'm just lookinginto different ways to get the
word out.
Yeah, and I feel like you know,I didn't.
I didn't by by being german,but writing a book in english.
Um, that is not exactly makingit easier, you know, because all
(31:03):
the you know, like eveninstagram, like understanding
the algorithm, guess what?
All the bookstagrammers that Iam being pushed are and
suggested are germ Germans, youknow so so yeah, and then who
write in German?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I sorry, do they all write in German, the ones who
you're?
Yes, many, many, yeah, that'ssome also read in English.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
So you need to find the ones who also like to read
in English.
And yeah, and several answeredme, I'd love to, but I, I just
don't read in English all thatmuch, you know.
So it's interesting to, I guess, writing it in English in
itself.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Why did you decide to write it in English instead of
in German?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I didn't actually properly decide.
Literally, english is my, soGerman is my native language,
but English is so much closer tome, and if I ever write a diary
when I have the time, it's inenglish.
If I, like you know, it'salways been in english, so
english is probably closer to me, also at an emotional level,
(32:03):
which I think what this was veryimportant for.
Um, my work is in english, myjob is european.
Um, my family at home talks inEnglish most of the time, so it
just happens to be that I'm in avery international setting and
it's yeah.
to me it was much, much moreobvious to write in English.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
You could find because that's something that I
find interesting withtranslations right Is that
sometimes there's just not aword in another language for the
English word or the German wordor the French word or the
Spanish word.
There's just like there's not aword.
And so when someone isn'twriting in their native language
, because they actually feelmore of an emotional connection
(32:43):
I don't know that I've everheard that before Like I'm, I
feel more of an emotionalconnection to a language, to the
words in a language that arenot my native language.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
But it's probably because the majority of my day
is in English.
It's in English, my husband andme speak in English.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
swear in English or in German?
No, definitely English.
I try not to because my littleyou know gnome at home.
He picks up everything and usesit against you.
If you let him, you have likemultiple options.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I think that's delightful.
You know you have multipleoptions for how you want to
swear.
I I always feel like if I couldswear in a foreign language it
sounds prettier.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, but I have to have you teach me some things.
We also speak Italian, some athome, and he, immediately, he
knows what Italian word is acurse word he it like.
He just picks it up like that,it's the, it's the tonality
probably he's fluent in EnglishLike there's no way out, there's
like no, no stone to hide under.
(33:44):
So if, like, he will pick it upimmediately, even if he's, like
you know, focused in his audiobook and you can talk to him and
he will not respond for 10minutes, but as, but as soon as
something like this drops, it'slike what did you say?
Yeah, you know, I thinkchildren are just like that.
They're little swear worddetectors.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Tone does have something that you make a great
point, though it's not like we.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
we say it kind or uh, you know, with a low.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, okay.
So now you're working on um thenext book, right, my mind, my
mind, your mind is working on it.
So when will you start?
What's your process today?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
When do you go?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
from your mind to the paper.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Right.
So, indeed, I felt that thistime I might want to have a
process, you know, because thelast book it actually just grew,
you know, and it grew and itgrew.
And now I was like, okay, no,wait a second.
And last night, literally, myhusband wanted to switch off the
light.
I'm like no, no, no, I'm makingnotes here.
So I had a piece of paper thatsaid main characters and I
thought about who's my maincharacters and what's their key
question?
What are they battling with?
(34:51):
Okay, and then I had some ideasfor some key scenes.
I put that down and there'ssome different piece of paper I
had, like I have a page thatsays plot, but it's totally
empty.
So I'd like, you know, andseveral of these other things
where I'm like I have and thisis, I guess that was the process
in the first place too I havescenes in my head.
I have a scene where I'm likethat's making the point, this is
(35:15):
saying it all you know, andthis is getting the feeling
across, this is getting themessage across.
And then I write around thatscene and then I have to figure
out how do I get to that Like,what led up to that scene and
where do we go from here?
I think that was the process,but at first.
One of the first scenes I wrotefor the first book was probably
(35:37):
that's at the very beginning ofthe book is where she puts her
eyeliner on in the morningbecause that's that's what she
always does, that's like it's ahabit, like she can't do, not do
it, it's not a thing, likedoesn't exist, and I that and
and one or two other scenes thatjust were there, and then I had
to write a whole chapter aroundit and then from there it
literally just grew into a book.
(35:58):
What can I say?
So that doesn't sound like muchof a process, because it isn't.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
It is, though, right, like sometimes the process is.
I don't really have a process,it's just I go with it.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
I would say honest to God in the first book very much
so I didn't have a process.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Well, and I think everyone I mean, one of the
things I've certainly learned intalking to so many authors is
there is no wrong process If itgets you to a finished book.
It might take a year, it mighttake 10 years, but that's just
what it is, and so some peoplestart with a very concrete
outline and some people just flyby the seat of their pants aka
(36:34):
pantsers and some people aresomewhere in between, and then
sometimes you evolve from bookto book and it's like like I I'm
talking to Melissa De La Cruz,which I don't know if you're
familiar with, melissa De LaCruz, because she's a, you know,
primarily US, but she's written, according to Jordan Jordan
Roeder, who's become my new BFF,she's written like 9 million
(37:05):
books, which is obviously anexact.
She's written so many books,though, and I'm and she's just
prolific and I am reading hernewest one right now, and I'm so
curious to ask her how herprocess has evolved or changed.
Yeah, like, what does she dotoday that she didn't do back at
book one?
Ie 9 million books ago?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
you know, yeah, and I do think, probably with every
book you learn something.
You know, like now I would knowwhat to do for a launch.
So you know, now for this bookI feel like maybe I should have
a plot first.
You know like what an idea.
But maybe you shouldn't.
You know, maybe I shouldn't,because all these things that
then grew into it and justbloomed, um, they came because
(37:37):
there was no plot, but they wereimportant and they showed up in
their own good time, basically,and and I, I wrote the book, um
in in just a few months,basically, you know, but it took
me a year and a half to put itout there, because then we went
into the editing and, and thatwas also, shall I say, not my
favorite.
I love working with you.
So, no, no questions no, I knowright, it's editing.
(38:01):
You know, I hadn't even, uh,begun to understand what that
means, and and going over itagain and again, and again and
again.
That wasn't always my favoritepart, but I think it makes it so
much better and it makes it somuch clearer of what am I trying
to say here.
Like and again, some scenes youwrite because they and we have
this conversation, or somescenes they matter to you, to
(38:22):
yourself, and you just want tohave one person acknowledge and
then you can put them to bed andbury them somewhere and you
don't need them in the bookbecause they're not important
for the book.
But, um, I'm hoping I didn'thave too many of those, but I
know I had one.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
I had a few, I think that, that, and I think everyone
does.
I really do.
I really think that if you know, depending on how much you get
on the page before you go to abeta read or an edit, like I
think, at the end you almosteveryone has something that it's
like why is this here?
Yes, and then you have to dosome introspection and figure
out well, why is that there?
(38:56):
And, to your point, sometimesyou just needed one person.
The thing, whatever, it is,just needed to be seen by one
person.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
And it just wanted to be seen by one person.
And then I think we have thesituation where you were like on
Ron, which is like one of myfavorite characters in the book,
which is entirely made up.
By the way, I do not have a Ron.
Okay, I can still see ron.
I love ron.
Yeah, I love ron too.
And I think you suggested inthe one chapter to take out a
page or two and I had to say Isat with it, you know, and I
(39:26):
thought about it and I was like,absolutely not, yeah, I love
this character way too much andthis has so much about him that
it has to stay, and at I didn'tknow why.
But then I wrote a lot moreabout Ron which wasn't in the
first draft.
But I had to understand, likewhy does Ron have to stay?
What's so important about Ron?
And then Ron got so much biggerrole in Hannah's life.
(39:50):
But I had to, you know, I hadto go through your question of
where's this going, like why dowe need?
Yeah, right, take him out?
I was saying no, absolutely not, he's so important.
But I hadn't written it yet,you know.
But when you asked me, it justit, just well, and that's the
thing is flying through well,sometimes it's okay.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Do I pull this out because it's there's not much,
or do I add more?
Right, if a character is superunderdeveloped, then it, an
editor, may say I don't't get it.
Like this doesn't seem to addto the whole thing, let's pull
this out.
But when an author and this iswhy I really encourage authors
to be a really activeparticipant in their editing and
(40:30):
to really advocate for thepieces of the book that are
important to you, and even ifyou don't yet know why, right.
So you, instead of just sayingoh okay, liz said to pull it out
, I'm just going to pull it out,you said no, no, no, I know I
need this in here, exactly it.
Just I just don't, I don't know.
And so then you did build itout and then it works.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
In combination with your question, you know you
should.
In combination with yourquestion, you know you should
like, I think, at the end of onechapter you said what's what
will make us root for thecharacter, for hannah, more like
, what does she stand to lose?
What's her, you know?
Why is this so important?
And those two things together,you know, really tip the scale
for me and made me think, no,okay, wait, wait, something
(41:14):
about ron.
And so, yeah, sorry, we can'ttell People need to read the
book, obviously, but I love Ron,you know.
And now for my next book.
So my thinking, I don't want totalk about it too much because
you know, god knows, it's goingto be something completely
different, but you know it's.
I guess when you write the nextbook, it's like do I kill all my
characters and start fromscratch, or do I just write
(41:37):
something that's the next stepfor my first book?
So it could be a series or itcould be something entirely
different, that's what I wasgoing to say.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Is it a series or is it a standalone?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Exactly, and so now I'm thinking it could be the
next book, like part two.
Basically it doesn't have to beand maybe it won't.
But now that I'm pondering itI'm like, oh no, but like, what
about Ron?
How do I?
I'm wondering, how do I bringcharacters?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
along.
That I like.
Well, you know what some peopledo.
That I think is really fun isthey?
They call them Easter eggs,right?
So they?
They bring a character from aor something from a previous
book into the next book and itdoesn't.
You don't have to know who thecharacter is, you don't have to
know the context of the firstbook.
But if you've read the firstbook you're like, oh my God,
it's Ron or whatever the case.
(42:23):
Yeah, In his first life,basically.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
So it's interesting how I think you grow.
You create not worlds, in thiscase, because it's not fantasy
or something right, but youcreate characters and you grow
fond of them, maybe becausethey're part of you, but a lot
of it is not part of you, infact, a lot of it is very
different from you, right butyou grow fond of them.
(42:46):
And so to me, right now, I'mthinking like oh, do I travel
with them a little longer?
You know, would they like totravel with me a little longer,
right?
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Is it going to be something entirely different?
Do they want to join us whilewe get doors in the house and
put up baseboards?
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Exactly so and I'm thinking, you know, because this
whole renovation piece was sotraumatic.
I'm like what room in my nextbook does a renovation have?
Like, I need to write it inbecause I'm such an echo.
at my day job I was telling myboss that I'm going to add
construction site management tomy skill profile now because I'm
very proficient, you know, andI just don't want to, don't want
(43:25):
to lose the fact that I justgrew all these different skills
over these past months and I canhave conversations about tiles
and how to put them down and hownot to, and make it matter go
wrong.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Make it matter.
Make this insanity matter right.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Exactly.
So, whatever, maybe this isgoing to be my first nonfiction
like how to survive yourrenovation.
I don't know.
That's real tough Room for somany.
And I see you, I'm sorry, makesme laugh, because I heard one
of your last podcasts and yousaid you grew accustomed to
moving away from the microphonewhen you're laughing and I just
(43:59):
I see you physically doing that.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I know because I it sounds so it's people will like
immediately fast forward to thenext podcast.
If I were to laugh, my kids arelike you laugh like a hyena and
I I don't think that's acompliment, but I do know that
when I laugh it can be very loud, so I do back away.
Last question I always ask whatdo you?
What are you reading now?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
right now I'm reading by Maya Angelou.
I Know why the Caged Bird Singsreally for the first time yes,
first time, and I startedreading it because I I saw so
many of her videos when she wasspeaking, you know, and I love I
think it was probably amasterclass with Oprah or
(44:44):
something, I'm not sure butwhere she was saying that you
have to have rainbows in yourclouds.
You know, I don't know if youheard her say that and that she
had a lot of.
I don't know if you heard hersay that and that she had a lot
of I don't know clouds, but shealso had so many rainbows in her
clouds and to try to be arainbow in somebody else's cloud
, and I just get goosebumps whenI even say it.
(45:05):
So I think she's so inspiringand just through her life and
through her words and just Imean amazing, just her words,
they have so much power, and soI just I have to say I just
discovered her, which maybe it'sdue to not being in the US or
something, but I just literallydiscovered her last year.
(45:25):
So I heard about her beforemany times, but I never started
reading anything, and so now I'mreading.
I Know why the Kitchbird Singsand I'm just trying to get
anything as a.
I don't think she did podcastsat the time, but there's
recordings of her right, sothere's a lot to listen to those
videos and she's very, veryinspiring, I think very wise.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
She was very wise.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yes, exactly yeah exactly that's exactly the word,
so that's what I'm reading,right?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
now.
Well, I will put a link toeverything, all of the things
that we've talked about, all ofwherever where everyone can find
you, which would be Instagram,because that's what we're
focusing on, and your book andthe whole shebang in the notes.
But, thank you, I hope you'llcome back and talk about the
second book.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And if you have a new podcaston renovation, which I know you
have an interest in, you know Ihave a huge interest in
renovation.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
I'm tearing down walls by the day, but I don't
want to write a book about it.
No, I see, but we could talkabout it.
We could talk.
Yeah, we could Well, thank you,thank you.
Thank you so much for tuning inIf Thank you.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode.
This is your friendly reminderto follow or subscribe, leave a
quick review and share it withsomeone you know has a great
(46:43):
story or message, but isn't surewhat to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world Again, thanks
so much for listening and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
(47:06):
again soon.
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in.
Be sure to reveal that a resulttook eight years or required a
$30,000 investment in ads,because those details are just
as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:10):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Well, hi, everybody, andwelcome back or welcome in.
It's always fun for me to talkto somebody who engaged in a
massive home renovation whilstworking on their book or working
on the editing of their book.
What's not fun is when they'reworking on a major home
renovation.
That was unexpected, becausethe whole house flooded right as
the book was being finished andthen right as it went into edit
(01:33):
.
I don't know if there's a worsetime, but that's exactly what
happened to Angelica Marini,whose book Do you See Me Now?
It's her debut novel.
I had the great privilege ofediting.
I absolutely loved this book,highly recommend it and, of
course, I've got a link to itdown in the episode notes.
And Angelica, who writes underthe name A Marini, really,
(01:57):
really, really stayed committedto honing this manuscript when
she had absolutely everyunderstandable and justifiable
reason to say I'm going to needto put this on hold for about
six months.
So I would get emails from herthat would be answers to
questions or some edits that shehad made right along with.
Well, today we got hardwoodfloors put in, and that was
(02:19):
after several months of not evenbeing able to live in the house
because, again, it had beenflooded.
So I'm thrilled that we finallyhad the opportunity to sit down
and chat about the writing ofit, about her characters and how
they evolved, which was areally interesting part of the
conversation.
Angelica is German and she wrotethe book in English, which is
also something that we chattedabout, and it's also made the
(02:41):
marketing of the bookinteresting because, as someone,
she lives in Germany, she isGerman and while her primary
language in her home and in herwork is English, most people who
live in Germany are speakingGerman, so she's not only got to
find a way to get the book outto people, but she has to find a
way to get the book out topeople who might be German but
speak and read in English, sothat's added a little extra
(03:06):
legwork to the whole marketinggame.
I've put all of Angelica'slinks and all of the resources
that we talked about in theepisode notes, so let's just get
right on with the conversation.
Full disclosure I edited Do youSee Me Now?
Right?
So because I edited it, I'mintimately familiar with what
(03:28):
was going on in your world whilewe were trying to get this
whole thing finished, all thethings that were happening, all
the things that were happening.
And I love this because I don'tlove it.
It's so easy for us as writersto be like I can't do this right
now.
I have other things going on,and to say you had other things
(03:48):
going on is a bit of anunderstatement.
I had other things going on.
Yes, like a major houserenovation, that was unexpected.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So my house got flooded and,and there's normal life too.
No, I mean I, when I talk toother other people, of course
there's like oh, you have a job,oh, you're a mom, or you're
this, that and the other.
So that in itself I always feel.
When I see it in other people,I'm like, how do you even, like,
I read people's read count.
You know how many pages theyread this week?
(04:18):
Right, and I'm so impressed,like, how do they even, right,
how do they even, right, managedto to read that that much, not
to mention write something?
And, yeah, our house gotflooded.
That wasn't planned, and then wehad to renovate two-thirds of
it and we're still like,literally, uh, since we last
spoke, so I think two days ago,they put the baseboards down in
the in the ground floor.
So the basement, ignore thebasement.
(04:39):
We have doors now so we canclose it and ignore the basement
.
So eight months, in nine months, it's a full pregnancy.
Uh, into the journey.
We're still not done, but, butindeed so I, I refinished our
editing, um, I took your courseon how to launch the book.
I launched the book and youknow, the other day, uh,
(05:00):
probably yesterday only I readthis quote like or was it a
video by I don't know MelRobbins or somebody you know
like?
You're not an imposter, you area beginner.
And I keep telling myself thathow did I not think about what
happens after you launch a book?
You know, I was so focused onjust getting to launch date and
(05:23):
just finishing this, finish theedit phase, finish the launch
phase and it's like having, likehaving a baby right, and then
you have the baby and like, ohmy god, nobody told what, like,
you have to do something right?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
well it's.
You know I and you commented onthis um weeks ago.
I put on my stories a questionas a published author for those
of you who are published what doyou wish you had known?
Or something in that vein.
And every single response,angelica, every single one, was
(05:55):
not just me, yeah, it was notjust you, was I wish I knew.
And it was some variation of,like you know that that so much
marketing was going to beinvolved, or that the launch is
just the beginning.
Or I say let's not talk aboutthat right now to a huge degree,
(06:26):
because if you don't have abook out, then we don't have a
book to promote.
So we have to take it in phasesand let's focus on where our
feet are right now, which is inthe writing or in the editing.
And yet I also encourage peopleand we talked about this to
start talking about your book.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
True, and I mean you have this whole course on like
what to do to when you, how tolaunch a book, right, Right, I
honestly admit I did not look atit because all I wanted to do
is, besides my construction siteand normal life being crazy,
just to hit the launch button.
That's all I wanted and I waslike I'm going to figure it out
when I get there.
And then I got there, I waslike, oh darn, you know, there's
(07:08):
all these things that I couldhave done, should have done, but
I'm just trying to becompassionate with myself
because even if I had known, I'mnot sure I actually could have
done them in that moment.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
You know, the whole could have, would have, should
have thing is really a challenge, because I don't think I'm very
conscientious about remindingpeople, including myself,
there's Monday morning.
Quarterbacking is a real thingin in every industry, I think,
and we can look back and say,well, if I would have done that,
(07:40):
this might have been easier andtherefore I should have done
that.
And I don't think that's reallya fair statement, because I
think we're all doing the bestthat we can with the knowledge
and the time that we have.
And so, yes, for your next book, you will probably choose to do
something, but that's how weall grow in this, in this
(08:00):
industry.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Absolutely, absolutely.
So like what?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
was most overwhelming for you.
What did you expect to happenwhen you launched the book?
That didn't happen?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I didn't.
Honestly, I didn't expect toomuch and I tend to not do that
because I, I think I have amajor fear of being disappointed
.
So I tend to not like expectanything.
Right, I try and then, secretly, we do expect something On the
surface.
On the surface, you know.
Know.
I was sure this was not goingto be Oprah's book like
(08:30):
recommendation of the next month, right.
So I didn't expect a lot tohappen.
But what I literally didn'texpect is probably the work I
now have to put in right and thethe the different like ways to
you can promote a book.
So I, I talked with my husband.
I said the first few weeks kindof threw me off a bit, um,
(08:53):
because I felt a bit overwhelmedwith how, how am I like?
I, I want to be a writer, I ama writer, right, but but now I
have to be all these, to yourpoint, I have to be all these
other things.
I have to be a book.
But now I have to be all these.
To your point, I have to be allthese other things.
I have to be a book promoter.
I have to be an Instagramexpert.
I have to be a marketeer.
I have to be, you know, uh,somebody who writes amazing
emails to their followership.
(09:13):
That isn't existent at thebeginning, right?
So?
So who am I writing this to?
How do I find these people?
So so that I found a bitoverwhelming because, on the one
hand, it's something new, soI'm a beginner, so I don't quite
, I'm not in my territory, I'mnot in my comfort zone, which is
fine because that's where wegrow and on the other hand, it
(09:34):
isn't exactly what I most enjoy.
So, you know, in my head, kindof book number two is forming
and shaping, and I find that soexciting and I want to get back
to writing, you know.
But then in the few minutesthat I literally have in a day,
I'm doing something on Instagram.
So that's, I guess that's.
I didn't expect that because itwas just not part of my world
(09:59):
yet.
And now that I know, I thinknext time I will go about it
with more planning, moreconscious and also with more
ease and peace.
I guess you know, and just Iknow it's not a sprint, I know
it's a marathon, and people saythat, you say that, and I'm
starting to understand what itmeans, right, because it, you
(10:19):
know, but in a good way, in agood way, in a way that gives me
more peace of mind, you knowbecause and patience exactly,
and I know I said this to youwhen we talked during the
editing phase.
To me, success was just writingthe book.
That was my success, because Ididn't even know I was writing a
(10:42):
book until I was writing a book, and then, only only when it
was done, I was like I want todo something with it now and
that's when we started workingtogether.
Yeah, so I think success isalso working through all my
anxiety about publishing a bookand everything.
So the fact that I wrote a book, I published a book, it's out
there, it's a fact.
You know that NSF, that success.
(11:02):
And now I have, you know, firstpeople reading it, first
responses, and that's success.
And then success right now isthese small steps and steps,
continuous steps every day, andmaybe in the future success is
something different or bigger,but right now I'm just trying to
give myself some space tobreathe and not feel like I have
(11:22):
to run at 180 miles an hour andnot feel like I have to run at
180 miles an hour.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
I mean I think you have to and I hate that phrase
like have to, must should need.
You know, these are words andphrases that I strafe, like I
try really hard to stay awayfrom them.
I just think, for our ownmental health, we really do have
to.
We don't have to do anyparticular thing, but we do have
to make a choice about what thething is that we're going to do
(11:49):
.
So right Like on social mediaplatforms.
The idea and I'm so glad thatmore and more people are saying
this now, at least the peopleI'm listening to- and I'm
probably listening to them for areason, like you don't have to
be on Instagram, tiktok, and I'mprobably listening to them for
a reason, like you don't have tobe on Instagram, tiktok X,
youtube Like you don't have tobe.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
And that's so.
I heard you say that on otherpeople and that's so soothing,
because I couldn't if I wantedto, and the only literally.
I'm not a social media person.
I swear.
I don't have any social mediaaccounts, except my cat has an
Instagram account.
That's the only reason.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
I know how.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Instagram works.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Well, has an Instagram account.
That's the only reason I knowhow Instagram works.
Well.
What's so funny is when youwould comment on my and I'd go
to like my report or whateverwhatever you call that thing
where it says people havecommented and it would say Eva
the cat and I would have to dothis conversion in my head.
So I don't know if you oranyone listening does this, but
we get to know people based ontheir handle, not on their
actual name.
(12:45):
So now I know you.
You're in jail, and now I havean official pro, like I have a
profile right, like you're areal, but for so long it would
be like, oh, there's even a catagain, like that's how I knew
you, um, you know.
And so if there's anotherperson and oh, I know who I'm
thinking of, it's NL Blanford.
I hope I'm getting that nameright, but her given name is
(13:06):
Natasha, but her handle onInstagram is NL Blanford and she
comments a lot on my stuff andshe's just delightful.
She's actually coming on thepodcast in a couple of weeks to
talk about her novels and I justcall her NL, not now.
Now I call her Natasha, but forthe longest time I'd be like
there's a no, because that's howwe.
So it's such an interesting.
(13:26):
That's a whole separateconversation about the
interesting world of socialmedia.
But to your point, it is enoughwork to stay.
I guess I don't want to sayrelevant, but to stay active on
just on one platform.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah, absolutely, and I wouldn't.
I mean on Instagram.
In fact, I met this otherwriter and we're exchanging and
we're exchanging tips, and I'mso impressed because I think she
chose to let go of her job,move to the wilderness, and I
think so.
I want to quote it right.
(14:02):
I think it's Kelly in thewilderness, I think it's her
handle, so I I want to quote itright.
I think it's kelly in thewilderness, I think it's her
handler, but I do want to quoteit right.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
and she just launched her fantasy book okay,
stormbound, I think and I'lllook it up and put it in the
episode notes so we can allfollow kelly from the wilderness
.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I'll send you the right links and then we can do
this properly.
But I think she chose to focusonly on this you know, and
really immerse herself in thewriting and really immerse
herself in pushing her book.
She's got the draft for booktwo ready already.
You know how amazing is that.
She's looking for agents and ofcourse that's the way to go,
(14:40):
you know, and sometimes I'mwondering should I be doing that
?
But right now I have a day joband and apart from a child and a
child exactly, and a house torenovate.
But you know, so I think there'sand there's.
None of these are right orwrong, they're just different.
But they kind of determine the24 hours you have in the day
that you can then dedicate to,to marketing your book, to doing
(15:03):
all these other amazing things.
And just for me, it's a factthat I only have so many minutes
in the day where I cancreatively think about this.
And it's not just you don'twant to just repost the cover of
your book, right?
You want to kind of engage andhave like some level of content
and grow your followership andall that.
(15:24):
And I'm really only learning todo that.
And so there's only so muchtime, unfortunately, I can spend
, and inside of me, what I wouldreally love to do is just sit
down at my computer and write,you know.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
As would all of us.
Exactly.
I really think, like the morepeople I talk to, we love, we
all seemingly and I don't meanto generalize, but this does
seem like the majority lovecertain things A, writing, b, I
mean except when we don't and Bconnecting right, Connecting
with.
So if you're doing an event, abook event, to connect with
(15:59):
people, it's not a slimy thinglike well, I'm connecting so I
can sell you my book.
It's just we love that genuineconnection and conversation.
And so sometimes social mediasits like in the middle of those
two things.
Because, if you're trying, I'vebeen watching your social media
evolve and it's been fun because, again, when we first connected
(16:22):
, you were Eva the cat.
I know you have this beautiful,very soft looking gray cat who
I'm assuming his name is Eva yes, okay, with two E's.
So from there you started likedipping your toe in and and
showing the cover of your bookand things, and then from there
you started doing some reels andyou started showing other
(16:43):
author and like what are youreading right now?
And you just I'm watching, youwatch other people and get
inspired and think, well, howcould I do something like that?
And so that's what we all do istry.
I mean, you know that's whatthe majority does I don't want
to say everyone, but so I wantto ask you a questions.
(17:03):
Do you see me now?
I loved so, so much, and one ofthe things that I'm noticing
about myself as a reader and asan editor, but specifically as a
reader right now, is I'm reallyenjoying memoir that reads like
fiction.
So I believe that memoir needsto read like fiction across the
board, like period, but it'salmost when someone takes
(17:25):
creative liberties where theirmemoir is, they don't need it to
be clear that it's their story.
So they take their story andthey turn it into fiction.
So it's like it's like aninspired by, not a based on,
type thing, and that's how I saw.
Do you See Me Now?
And I'm curious.
(17:46):
I mean, is that how you see?
Do?
Speaker 2 (17:48):
You See Me Now, in between, I would say I've never
written a memoir, obviously, butthe story that I'm telling is
not my life, so in that way it'snot a memoir.
Clearly it's a fictional storyor fictional characters.
But I do think, and I have tothink every author does that no,
(18:08):
and maybe not.
Maybe, if you're really intoworld building and I don't know,
you set your story on adifferent planet.
Maybe not so much, but eventhen I would imagine that every
author tells some sort ofuniversal truth or something
that people can relate to.
Otherwise it's not an engagingstory.
So either that and or, um, ittells something I can't imagine.
(18:29):
None of the other authors puttheir own little stories in
there, their own memories, theirown, you know.
So, so that that is where itall gets very, very blended and
it's not.
It's not a memoir, right, it's afictional story.
Of course, I drew on part of myown experiences.
So obviously, part of the storyis set in Eastern Germany.
(18:51):
So recent German history, right, and the experiences that
people went through, and I'm nottrying to describe my
experience, but I think there'ssome universal truth to
experiences of people that theyhad, oh my gosh, 100%.
And so I'm trying to conveythat.
(19:12):
But obviously a lot of thefeelings, a lot of some of the
memories are mine, and then someare entirely uniquely invented,
like characters that just cameto me and I think we talked when
we were talking about, youstarted writing your next book
and you know how about?
I don't know.
Do you see the story all upfront?
(19:34):
I'm not like this book grew byitself.
It came very organically.
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Wow, can you pass some of that over here, because
it is not happening over here.
Angelica, it's not happening.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
And for me, wrote itself.
Yes, it just wrote itself out.
And every time you I was realmad a question I should say.
You would say something likebut yeah, but where are you
going with this, or why is thischaracter doing this?
And I thought I had it on paper, I just didn't.
But the moment you asked me, Isaw it, it's clear, like a movie
(20:08):
, and I just had to write it out, right.
So so it's really like a movieplaying in my head and then all
these pieces come together andthen we had to write it out,
right.
So it's really like a movieplaying in my head and then all
these pieces come together andthen we had to shuffle them
around a bit to fit them in theright places, and that's how
that came about.
So I wouldn't say it's a memoir,but it certainly is inspired by
me.
And if you ask me, who am I,I'm in all of these characters.
(20:31):
Part of me is in all of thesecharacters.
You know which I think is isprobably I don't know, maybe
it's normal, maybe it's notnormal, but I couldn't put
myself as one person in thisbook, because I'm not.
I'm a part of this person.
I'm a part of this person.
I wish I was this person, youknow, and I wish I had this
person.
So I wrote it in my book.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
So yeah, that just gave me like all the, the, the,
the goosebumps, because I Irecognize to a degree that
that's what I'm doing, becauseI'm actually exploring all these
different facets of myself, butI'm exploring them Like I'm
(21:17):
writing.
You know, in my authorcommunity last week someone said
you're, you're writing the,you're working on the book and
the book is working on you, andI thought it was a beautiful way
to express a sentiment thatwe've all been talking about for
a long time, which is like youwrite your way, you come up with
(21:38):
questions while you're writing,it's like what, and so that
experience is different foreveryone.
But did you feel that at allwith these characters?
Speaker 2 (21:44):
The way you're describing it right now sounds
like it's an intellectualexercise.
You come up with a question,try to answer the question're
exploring, I think, for me, theprocess and the way I started
out and I told you this right,because I'm qualified as a
conscious parenting coach in DrShefali's institute and I know
one of the other authors too.
Janet Filber and I went throughher program and it just really
(22:07):
reconnected me with a lot of myemotions, with my feelings, and
I started writing as a way toexpress my feelings, feel my
feelings and literally, kind of,you know, it's like this
three-dimensional thing that youcan hold in your hand, you can
turn it around by writing aboutit.
No, and I wish you know, youcan't have the gesture in an
(22:29):
audio, but you get the pointright.
So you get to look at it.
So we're gesturing.
Yeah, exactly, you get to lookat it from different angles, you
get to explore it.
And that's how I startedwriting.
And when I realized this mightbe a book, you know, I was
hoping.
I guess my first hope for thebook was that it would make
people feel something.
(22:49):
Because it made me feelsomething, feel something,
because it made me feelsomething.
And, to answer your question, Ithink I came at many of these
questions not from anintellectual but from a feeling
level.
The feeling was there and thenI started to describe it and I
built the scene around thefeeling.
So I don't know, I'm hopingthat the book conveys some
feelings, because otherwise Ididn't go a good job.
Speaker 1 (23:12):
And the other thing I told you and I told I told you
this while while I was editingit, and I I this is another
aspect of books, fiction orotherwise, that I absolutely
love is when I can learn.
You know, I'm not inherently ahistory, what someone would call
a history buff.
However, I have found that Ilove to learn about history
(23:35):
because something that someonewrites about intrigues me and I
think I want to know more aboutthat, and so I was asking you
lots of questions.
I mean, I needed someclarification, because you do
talk in the beginning about theEastern and Western Germany, and
I found myself being reallycurious about that Germany.
And I found myself being reallycurious about that and then
(23:56):
also realizing that, as you saida few minutes ago, you being
German, right, you know thehistory of that, whereas the
reader might not ie me.
And so how can we, withoutmaking it a book, a history book
, without making it bland andsterile, and, like you know, the
war happened, how can we infusethe book with some of that
(24:19):
information that might even leadthe reader to become more
curious?
I mean, not more than you needit for the story, right, and
there's a fine balance there,but it really intrigued me, like
it really made me think aboutyour main characters.
You know Hannah, your maincharacter, her her journey in a.
She had some different likeinternal conflicts going on,
(24:43):
just based on how and where shewas raised, and I think that
that's something that so manypeople today are navigating too.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I think many people, I have to think, that grew up in
Eastern Germany probably havethat at some level.
I mean, I made it more of anextreme story, right To bring
the point across.
Not everybody was affected inthat way, but I do think that if
you grew up in a certain wayand I saw both, because I was
still a child when Germany wasreunited, so I saw how Eastern
(25:14):
Germany ticked there was a lotof indoctrination, you know, and
actually the other day I wasjoking with my parents If you
look at the comic books that thechildren got, there was the
Russian soldiers in there whowere your friends and you know,
like early on in kindergartenyou would read the stuff and it
was normal, right, and so therewas this kind of indoctrination
(25:34):
from the start.
You grew up in the system andyou thought this is the, this is
the right system, right, andthen it collapses and you learn
this.
There's another system thatkind of took over, because now
they're right and we were wrong.
And I think it affected manypeople.
And so I was a child, I wasnine years old when Germany got
reunited.
Um, obviously many people whowere older, or even young people
(25:57):
, but who were older, maybe intheir adolescence or something,
maybe I might have perceived iteven more, might have perceived
also the, the restrictions ofthe system, a lot more than I
did as a child, right, but Iwanted to to capture that.
At first it wasn't even thatbig of a part of my story, but
then I was I realized that, like, but I wanted to capture that,
at first it wasn't even that bigof a part of my story, but then
I realized that.
But I have to explain where allthis comes from.
(26:19):
And then I was thinking butwhere does it come from?
And only then did I realize Ihave to put that on paper,
because otherwise why wouldpeople understand the conflict
of the hero or heroine?
Heroine sounds like a drug, butthat's how you pronounce it,
right.
Maybe we should add that in nowit does.
Yeah, yeah, well, and I andthat was.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
That was one of the pieces that we worked on um a
bit.
You know was?
It was there, but it wasn'tthere enough right at the
beginning to make it clear whyHannah was having these
challenges with going to and I'mnot going to give away anything
, obviously, but going to Europe.
(27:02):
And then you know where sheends up and why she feels kind
of stuck and stagnant and likeI'm at a crossroads, where are
we going?
And I think that's just such arelatable feeling right now for
so many women of my age.
Certainly it's like okay, herewe are, somehow, now what's next
(27:23):
?
Right, and I?
I told you that I and this is abold statement to make, because
one of my favorite books and myfavorite stories is the
Alchemist, and I really felt theenergy of I'm not comparing
your book to the Alchemist, I'mnot anythinging that but I felt
that same energy.
(27:44):
Like in the Alchemist the maincharacter is a boy and it's a
male character, and in your bookit's a female character and I I
just felt that same energy.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
And that's such an honor.
I wasn't thinking about it whenI wrote it.
Sure, of course you brought itup, right yeah?
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Obviously, very, very I know, because you were like,
oh God, is that bad, like isthis going to be right?
No, it just that's what itbrought up for me.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah, and it just that's what it brought up for me
.
I, yeah, and you know, I thinkyou were saying like being at a
point where you're like where doI go from here?
But I think it's also to reallyunderstand what got me here.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I think this is how much how the book starts.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
No, like looking like introversion.
Looking back, what got me here?
How did I get here?
Before I take my next step, Ireally want to get it because I
need to understand myself,otherwise I might just go in the
next wrong direction again.
You know, and I don't want todo that so kind of really deep
diving into yourself and it's um, I'm, I started a reading round
(28:43):
.
It's not close yet.
So in Germany there's it'ssomething like books route or
something like that in in the U?
S, but in Germany it's calledlovely books, and so you can put
, you know, 20 books up for araffle and you give people a
question to answer and theneverybody can apply and then you
pick the people who win thebook and they review the book
afterwards oh, okay and thequestion that I posed is because
(29:04):
in the book, hannah takes hersister on a hero journey, right?
so I just asked a simplequestion who would you take on a
hero journey?
And I'm not even sure manypeople know what a hero journey
is, but I'm getting amazinganswers.
You know, everybody is likereally by themselves, to really
like focus on themselves.
Some people won't take theirmom, some people won't take
their best friend.
Several people said I'm goingto take my partner, but then
(29:26):
maybe I go alone.
Right, right, one person wantedto take their dog.
So amazing.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
And right right, one person wanted to take their dog.
So amazing and but everythingis.
I have a friend who'd want totake her bird like we won't even
get into that.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Right, cats, cats is always good.
A hero journey is such a to meand I did a hero journey, so,
and that's how, how I put it inthe book, because right that
firsthand what is that servicecalled?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
you, said it's one thing in germany and one thing
in the us.
What is it oh?
It's called lovely, said it'sone thing in Germany and one
thing in the US.
What is it oh?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
it's called lovely books.
It's just a platform whereeverybody shares book reviews
and um but this is I think it'sspecifically German, if I'm not
mistaken.
Okay, but you pointed me to toother such it's.
It's probably like good similarto goodreads.
Okay, yeah, exactly it's like agood gotcha, and there I'm only
just starting out.
Okay, I'm like learning, likeall the platforms and everything
(30:18):
, and what can you do where?
And when I found this, Ithought this was so nice because
you can make it a bit of a yeah, you get to pick the people who
actually will review your bookbased on.
Also, you can see what otherbooks they reviewed, and that
Okay, okay, first, they show aninterest in your book based on.
Also, you can see what otherbooks they reviewed and that
okay.
Okay, first they show aninterest in your book, they
apply, basically, and then,depending on how many, so
interesting, I don't know, ifyou're giving away five books,
(30:39):
you might get many more.
If you're giving away 100 books, maybe you don't get 100
applications, but so I I'mcurrently have this reading
around going and I thoughtthat's a it's a nice way of
doing it, so I'm just lookinginto different ways to get the
word out.
Yeah, and I feel like you know,I didn't.
I didn't by by being german,but writing a book in english.
Um, that is not exactly makingit easier, you know, because all
(31:03):
the you know, like eveninstagram, like understanding
the algorithm, guess what?
All the bookstagrammers that Iam being pushed are and
suggested are germ Germans, youknow so so yeah, and then who
write in German?
Speaker 1 (31:16):
I sorry, do they all write in German, the ones who
you're?
Yes, many, many, yeah, that'ssome also read in English.
Speaker 2 (31:23):
So you need to find the ones who also like to read
in English.
And yeah, and several answeredme, I'd love to, but I, I just
don't read in English all thatmuch, you know.
So it's interesting to, I guess, writing it in English in
itself.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Why did you decide to write it in English instead of
in German?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
I didn't actually properly decide.
Literally, english is my, soGerman is my native language,
but English is so much closer tome, and if I ever write a diary
when I have the time, it's inenglish.
If I, like you know, it'salways been in english, so
english is probably closer to me, also at an emotional level,
(32:03):
which I think what this was veryimportant for.
Um, my work is in english, myjob is european.
Um, my family at home talks inEnglish most of the time, so it
just happens to be that I'm in avery international setting and
it's yeah.
to me it was much, much moreobvious to write in English.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
You could find because that's something that I
find interesting withtranslations right Is that
sometimes there's just not aword in another language for the
English word or the German wordor the French word or the
Spanish word.
There's just like there's not aword.
And so when someone isn'twriting in their native language
, because they actually feelmore of an emotional connection
(32:43):
I don't know that I've everheard that before Like I'm, I
feel more of an emotionalconnection to a language, to the
words in a language that arenot my native language.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
But it's probably because the majority of my day
is in English.
It's in English, my husband andme speak in English.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
swear in English or in German?
No, definitely English.
I try not to because my littleyou know gnome at home.
He picks up everything and usesit against you.
If you let him, you have likemultiple options.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
I think that's delightful.
You know you have multipleoptions for how you want to
swear.
I I always feel like if I couldswear in a foreign language it
sounds prettier.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Yeah, but I have to have you teach me some things.
We also speak Italian, some athome, and he, immediately, he
knows what Italian word is acurse word he it like.
He just picks it up like that,it's the, it's the tonality
probably he's fluent in EnglishLike there's no way out, there's
like no, no stone to hide under.
(33:44):
So if, like, he will pick it upimmediately, even if he's, like
you know, focused in his audiobook and you can talk to him and
he will not respond for 10minutes, but as, but as soon as
something like this drops, it'slike what did you say?
Yeah, you know, I thinkchildren are just like that.
They're little swear worddetectors.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Tone does have something that you make a great
point, though it's not like we.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
we say it kind or uh, you know, with a low.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah, oh, my gosh, okay.
So now you're working on um thenext book, right, my mind, my
mind, your mind is working on it.
So when will you start?
What's your process today?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
When do you go?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
from your mind to the paper.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Right.
So, indeed, I felt that thistime I might want to have a
process, you know, because thelast book it actually just grew,
you know, and it grew and itgrew.
And now I was like, okay, no,wait a second.
And last night, literally, myhusband wanted to switch off the
light.
I'm like no, no, no, I'm makingnotes here.
So I had a piece of paper thatsaid main characters and I
thought about who's my maincharacters and what's their key
question?
What are they battling with?
(34:51):
Okay, and then I had some ideasfor some key scenes.
I put that down and there'ssome different piece of paper I
had, like I have a page thatsays plot, but it's totally
empty.
So I'd like, you know, andseveral of these other things
where I'm like I have and thisis, I guess that was the process
in the first place too I havescenes in my head.
I have a scene where I'm likethat's making the point, this is
(35:15):
saying it all you know, andthis is getting the feeling
across, this is getting themessage across.
And then I write around thatscene and then I have to figure
out how do I get to that Like,what led up to that scene and
where do we go from here?
I think that was the process,but at first.
One of the first scenes I wrotefor the first book was probably
(35:37):
that's at the very beginning ofthe book is where she puts her
eyeliner on in the morningbecause that's that's what she
always does, that's like it's ahabit, like she can't do, not do
it, it's not a thing, likedoesn't exist, and I that and
and one or two other scenes thatjust were there, and then I had
to write a whole chapter aroundit and then from there it
literally just grew into a book.
(35:58):
What can I say?
So that doesn't sound like muchof a process, because it isn't.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
It is, though, right, like sometimes the process is.
I don't really have a process,it's just I go with it.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
I would say honest to God in the first book very much
so I didn't have a process.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Well, and I think everyone I mean, one of the
things I've certainly learned intalking to so many authors is
there is no wrong process If itgets you to a finished book.
It might take a year, it mighttake 10 years, but that's just
what it is, and so some peoplestart with a very concrete
outline and some people just flyby the seat of their pants aka
(36:34):
pantsers and some people aresomewhere in between, and then
sometimes you evolve from bookto book and it's like like I I'm
talking to Melissa De La Cruz,which I don't know if you're
familiar with, melissa De LaCruz, because she's a, you know,
primarily US, but she's written, according to Jordan Jordan
Roeder, who's become my new BFF,she's written like 9 million
(37:05):
books, which is obviously anexact.
She's written so many books,though, and I'm and she's just
prolific and I am reading hernewest one right now, and I'm so
curious to ask her how herprocess has evolved or changed.
Yeah, like, what does she dotoday that she didn't do back at
book one?
Ie 9 million books ago?
Speaker 2 (37:14):
you know, yeah, and I do think, probably with every
book you learn something.
You know, like now I would knowwhat to do for a launch.
So you know, now for this bookI feel like maybe I should have
a plot first.
You know like what an idea.
But maybe you shouldn't.
You know, maybe I shouldn't,because all these things that
then grew into it and justbloomed, um, they came because
(37:37):
there was no plot, but they wereimportant and they showed up in
their own good time, basically,and and I, I wrote the book, um
in in just a few months,basically, you know, but it took
me a year and a half to put itout there, because then we went
into the editing and, and thatwas also, shall I say, not my
favorite.
I love working with you.
So, no, no questions no, I knowright, it's editing.
(38:01):
You know, I hadn't even, uh,begun to understand what that
means, and and going over itagain and again, and again and
again.
That wasn't always my favoritepart, but I think it makes it so
much better and it makes it somuch clearer of what am I trying
to say here.
Like and again, some scenes youwrite because they and we have
this conversation, or somescenes they matter to you, to
(38:22):
yourself, and you just want tohave one person acknowledge and
then you can put them to bed andbury them somewhere and you
don't need them in the bookbecause they're not important
for the book.
But, um, I'm hoping I didn'thave too many of those, but I
know I had one.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
I had a few, I think that, that, and I think everyone
does.
I really do.
I really think that if you know, depending on how much you get
on the page before you go to abeta read or an edit, like I
think, at the end you almosteveryone has something that it's
like why is this here?
Yes, and then you have to dosome introspection and figure
out well, why is that there?
(38:56):
And, to your point, sometimesyou just needed one person.
The thing, whatever, it is,just needed to be seen by one
person.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
And it just wanted to be seen by one person.
And then I think we have thesituation where you were like on
Ron, which is like one of myfavorite characters in the book,
which is entirely made up.
By the way, I do not have a Ron.
Okay, I can still see ron.
I love ron.
Yeah, I love ron too.
And I think you suggested inthe one chapter to take out a
page or two and I had to say Isat with it, you know, and I
(39:26):
thought about it and I was like,absolutely not, yeah, I love
this character way too much andthis has so much about him that
it has to stay, and at I didn'tknow why.
But then I wrote a lot moreabout Ron which wasn't in the
first draft.
But I had to understand, likewhy does Ron have to stay?
What's so important about Ron?
And then Ron got so much biggerrole in Hannah's life.
(39:50):
But I had to, you know, I hadto go through your question of
where's this going, like why dowe need?
Yeah, right, take him out?
I was saying no, absolutely not, he's so important.
But I hadn't written it yet,you know.
But when you asked me, it justit, just well, and that's the
thing is flying through well,sometimes it's okay.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Do I pull this out because it's there's not much,
or do I add more?
Right, if a character is superunderdeveloped, then it, an
editor, may say I don't't get it.
Like this doesn't seem to addto the whole thing, let's pull
this out.
But when an author and this iswhy I really encourage authors
to be a really activeparticipant in their editing and
(40:30):
to really advocate for thepieces of the book that are
important to you, and even ifyou don't yet know why, right.
So you, instead of just sayingoh okay, liz said to pull it out
, I'm just going to pull it out,you said no, no, no, I know I
need this in here, exactly it.
Just I just don't, I don't know.
And so then you did build itout and then it works.
Speaker 2 (40:52):
In combination with your question, you know you
should.
In combination with yourquestion, you know you should
like, I think, at the end of onechapter you said what's what
will make us root for thecharacter, for hannah, more like
, what does she stand to lose?
What's her, you know?
Why is this so important?
And those two things together,you know, really tip the scale
for me and made me think, no,okay, wait, wait, something
(41:14):
about ron.
And so, yeah, sorry, we can'ttell People need to read the
book, obviously, but I love Ron,you know.
And now for my next book.
So my thinking, I don't want totalk about it too much because
you know, god knows, it's goingto be something completely
different, but you know it's.
I guess when you write the nextbook, it's like do I kill all my
characters and start fromscratch, or do I just write
(41:37):
something that's the next stepfor my first book?
So it could be a series or itcould be something entirely
different, that's what I wasgoing to say.
Speaker 1 (41:44):
Is it a series or is it a standalone?
Speaker 2 (41:46):
Exactly, and so now I'm thinking it could be the
next book, like part two.
Basically it doesn't have to beand maybe it won't.
But now that I'm pondering itI'm like, oh no, but like, what
about Ron?
How do I?
I'm wondering, how do I bringcharacters?
Speaker 1 (42:02):
along.
That I like.
Well, you know what some peopledo.
That I think is really fun isthey?
They call them Easter eggs,right?
So they?
They bring a character from aor something from a previous
book into the next book and itdoesn't.
You don't have to know who thecharacter is, you don't have to
know the context of the firstbook.
But if you've read the firstbook you're like, oh my God,
it's Ron or whatever the case.
(42:23):
Yeah, In his first life,basically.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
So it's interesting how I think you grow.
You create not worlds, in thiscase, because it's not fantasy
or something right, but youcreate characters and you grow
fond of them, maybe becausethey're part of you, but a lot
of it is not part of you, infact, a lot of it is very
different from you, right butyou grow fond of them.
(42:46):
And so to me, right now, I'mthinking like oh, do I travel
with them a little longer?
You know, would they like totravel with me a little longer,
right?
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Is it going to be something entirely different?
Do they want to join us whilewe get doors in the house and
put up baseboards?
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Exactly so and I'm thinking, you know, because this
whole renovation piece was sotraumatic.
I'm like what room in my nextbook does a renovation have?
Like, I need to write it inbecause I'm such an echo.
at my day job I was telling myboss that I'm going to add
construction site management tomy skill profile now because I'm
very proficient, you know, andI just don't want to, don't want
(43:25):
to lose the fact that I justgrew all these different skills
over these past months and I canhave conversations about tiles
and how to put them down and hownot to, and make it matter go
wrong.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Make it matter.
Make this insanity matter right.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Exactly.
So, whatever, maybe this isgoing to be my first nonfiction
like how to survive yourrenovation.
I don't know.
That's real tough Room for somany.
And I see you, I'm sorry, makesme laugh, because I heard one
of your last podcasts and yousaid you grew accustomed to
moving away from the microphonewhen you're laughing and I just
(43:59):
I see you physically doing that.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I know because I it sounds so it's people will like
immediately fast forward to thenext podcast.
If I were to laugh, my kids arelike you laugh like a hyena and
I I don't think that's acompliment, but I do know that
when I laugh it can be very loud, so I do back away.
Last question I always ask whatdo you?
What are you reading now?
Speaker 2 (44:23):
right now I'm reading by Maya Angelou.
I Know why the Caged Bird Singsreally for the first time yes,
first time, and I startedreading it because I I saw so
many of her videos when she wasspeaking, you know, and I love I
think it was probably amasterclass with Oprah or
(44:44):
something, I'm not sure butwhere she was saying that you
have to have rainbows in yourclouds.
You know, I don't know if youheard her say that and that she
had a lot of.
I don't know if you heard hersay that and that she had a lot
of I don't know clouds, but shealso had so many rainbows in her
clouds and to try to be arainbow in somebody else's cloud
, and I just get goosebumps whenI even say it.
(45:05):
So I think she's so inspiringand just through her life and
through her words and just Imean amazing, just her words,
they have so much power, and soI just I have to say I just
discovered her, which maybe it'sdue to not being in the US or
something, but I just literallydiscovered her last year.
(45:25):
So I heard about her beforemany times, but I never started
reading anything, and so now I'mreading.
I Know why the Kitchbird Singsand I'm just trying to get
anything as a.
I don't think she did podcastsat the time, but there's
recordings of her right, sothere's a lot to listen to those
videos and she's very, veryinspiring, I think very wise.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
She was very wise.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yes, exactly yeah exactly that's exactly the word,
so that's what I'm reading,right?
Speaker 1 (45:57):
now.
Well, I will put a link toeverything, all of the things
that we've talked about, all ofwherever where everyone can find
you, which would be Instagram,because that's what we're
focusing on, and your book andthe whole shebang in the notes.
But, thank you, I hope you'llcome back and talk about the
second book.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Absolutely, absolutely.
And if you have a new podcaston renovation, which I know you
have an interest in, you know Ihave a huge interest in
renovation.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
I'm tearing down walls by the day, but I don't
want to write a book about it.
No, I see, but we could talkabout it.
We could talk.
Yeah, we could Well, thank you,thank you.
Thank you so much for tuning inIf Thank you.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode.
This is your friendly reminderto follow or subscribe, leave a
quick review and share it withsomeone you know has a great
(46:43):
story or message, but isn't surewhat to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world Again, thanks
so much for listening and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
(47:06):
again soon.
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