April 23, 2025 • 48 mins
Click Here to ask your book writing and publishing questions!
This week, I sat down with debut author Noël Stark, who went from wrangling chaos behind the scenes in the TV and film world to wrangling words on the page, often in 15-minute bursts. Her novel, Love Camera Action, flips the script on Hollywood romance by spotlighting the crew, not the stars (and the 3 peppers on the spice scale are sure to attract an audience quickly.
Inside the Episode:
- Why Noël intentionally wrote a love story about the people behind the camera.
- How it took her three years to finish her manuscript (and why that timeline is totally okay if not to be expected).
- The rollercoaster of Pitch Wars, querying 40+ agents, and the 18-month wait from “yes” to launch day.
- Choosing not to read reviews during launch (because sanity matters, and confidence is a fragile beast).
- Why she tailors content differently for Instagram vs. TikTok, and how showing up as her real self resonates most.
- What’s next: a sequel that turns the spotlight on the actors from book one, and an intriguing speculative fiction project that has her lit up.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at Elizabeth Lyons.
Author.
Hi everybody.
So I don't really know what ishappening with TV writers, but
I'm not mad about it.
Several episodes ago I talkedwith Michael Jammin and then I
think two if not three episodesago, was Jordan Roeder, and
today I had so much fun talkingto Noelle Stark.
(01:27):
Noelle has worked in almostevery position.
She lists them out and she'snot.
It's to say, almost everyposition is not an exaggeration
In the film and TV industry.
She's been in front of thecamera, behind the camera.
She's Canadian, but she livesin LA with her young son.
And oh, this is where I is,where I had asked her in the
(01:47):
podcast, where I found out thisfun fact about her and I guess
it was right here in her Aboutpage she likes chocolate milk in
her coffee, which we had tohave a chat about because that
felt like new and it did notdisappoint the conversation
about chocolate milk and whatchocolate milk and where she
gets the chocolate milk andwhere she gets the like, what
chocolate milk and where shegets the chocolate milk.
What was really amazing wastalking about the transition and
(02:10):
the sort of comparison, I guess, between being a TV writer and
then writing her debut novel,love Camera Action, which comes
out on the 22nd so as of the airdate of this podcast, it would
have been yesterday, april 22ndof 2025, and how she took her
experiences in the TV world andparlayed them into this novel,
(02:33):
how long it actually took towrite, how long it took to get
sold, how long it took to comeout, and then all of the
marketing stuff that she did anddidn't anticipate on the back
end and how she's navigating allof it.
It was a really funconversation and, as usual, I
have all of her links in theshow notes so that you can find
her and follow her.
She has a really fun couple oflittle repeat bits that she does
(02:55):
on her Instagram profile that Ilaughed out loud at one of them
and I'm betting you will too.
So those are all in the episodenotes.
Let's just get on with theconversation.
Your post about daylightsavings Are you in LA?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I am in LA, okay, well.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I'm in Phoenix where we don't have daylight savings
time.
Oh, you're so lucky.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
You're not lucky why?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
because everybody else's schedule changes so I
have to like adjust everything Isee, yeah, that is a pain.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I just want everyone to stop.
We have a similar I'm canadianthere we have a similar thing in
saskatchewan.
Saskatchewan, that wholeprovince, is not on daylight
savings and that's why everybody, oh well, why do we have it
still?
And it's like, oh, because ofthe farmers, and it's not
because of the farmers, it's notbecause of the farmers.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
A hundred, it can't be, and I it's just exhausting.
So two weeks out of the year,right Six months apart, I just
let people know I'm going to bean hour early or an hour late,
or I'm just not going to show upat all, and I guess you can
blame the farmers, that's.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Um so non book related question.
First chocolate milk in yourcoffee.
Talk to me about this.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
This is like way more controversial than I ever
thought it would be.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
It was like the first thing where I don't know where
I saw it.
Where would I've seen that?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
It's in my because, like I think, my publicist.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Maybe that's where then?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
okay, yeah, yeah, um, okay.
So I either drink my coffeeblack or with chocolate milk.
Okay and uh, it is honestly oneof my favorite favorite things
is it like a specific kind ofchocolate?
Milk like, oh you know like,the best is in those like like
glass bottles.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I knew you were going to say that.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, yeah, but they're $900.
I was just going to say thattoo.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Exactly, but yeah, they make you feel really fancy.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
So fancy.
So fancy and like organic andlike all the things, but it's
also just better chocolate milk.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I take your word for it, cause I haven't actually
tried it.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Right, but maybe I should, because when was the
last time you had chocolate milk?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, like maybe you're eight or nine years old.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Exactly, which was just eons ago.
Yeah, so talk to me about thisbook and how it came, cause it
comes out a week from today.
Yeah, yes.
Oh my gosh, it's the 15th, so22nd the 22nd it comes out, yeah
love camera action and I lovejust to play on that word for a
(05:38):
minute how, when people I thereseems to be a TV writer thing
happening over here, becauseJordan Roeder was on a couple of
weeks ago and Michael Jammonwas on, and so I love, I'm, I'm
very intrigued by when you'reused to writing for TV or being
in the TV space and thentranslating that over.
So just tell me all the things.
(05:59):
Yeah, okay, so well.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I, I.
I work in in tv, but I work ina lot of different types of
formats.
I have worked in scripted, butI've also worked a ton in
reality, um, as a writer, as aproducer, as an actress, as a
director, as a PA, as alocations assist in casting.
Like everything I have donealmost every single role.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I just saw Paw Patrol and I didn't watch Paw Patrol,
but my best friend's son, who'snow nine, was completely
obsessed with Paw Patrol and mygirlfriend, natalie, would say I
can't stop singing Like it,just it was bad, she couldn't
stop.
So when I saw that, I had tolaugh, and I'll have to let her
(06:44):
know that we chatted, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, papa trolled that.
Like children's TV too, likeI've done, I've done voice work
in children's TV.
Yeah, I've pretty much hit itfrom every side.
So when I decided naively towrite a romance novel because I
really didn't, although, youknow, I knew the books took a
lot of work For some reason Ithought a romance novel would
(07:08):
take less work.
I don't know why I had thatimpression.
It's completely wrong, but Idid have that impression.
I thought I was going through ahuge romance reading binge and
I just really loved the form andI said you know what, I can
write one of these Famous lastwords right, famous last words.
(07:33):
But I wanted to write a bookthat I didn't have to spend a
lot of time building the world,because I wanted to focus on the
characters.
I wanted to focus on thestructure, I wanted to focus
just, you know, getting my feetunder me.
So, you know, write what youknow.
And that was the world of TV.
And also, you know, I had reada lot of Hollywood romances and
I noticed that a lot of them arefocused on the actors or on the
(07:54):
writers sometimes, but notreally on the crew.
So I wanted to write this bookabout the director, who's a
woman, and her director ofphotography, who's a guy, and
their trials and tribulations asthey fall in love on set.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So what and like what ?
Was there an initial momentwhere you kind of thought, man,
this is a lot harder than Ithought it was going to be?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
yeah, like almost every step of the way are you a
plotter or a pantser?
or somewhere in between.
For this book I was a pantser,which, now that I've, I've
written more I'm, I've, I'm aplantser, as they call it.
It helps to plot things out andthen throw them out later Um
(08:39):
and uh, and then, you know, justlet the pantsing stuff kind of
come in.
But it took me so much longerbecause I was a pantser, like I
would go off on tangents that Ihad to reel myself back from and
realize certain things hadnothing to do with the story.
So yeah, I'm in that middleground.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So how long did it take you then to finish?
Let's just call it what's draft, one which is, you know, draft
one of 672.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
But yeah, I mean I would say, okay, I'll say, I'll
say draft two, just because Iwas bouncing around a lot and
I'm a, I'm a single mom, uh huh.
So, and I work in TV, which isvery demanding, so my time was
not, it was scarce, my time isscarce.
So getting it to a place wheresomeone could read it and I
didn't feel nauseous about themreading it which I'll call the
(09:29):
second draft took me three years.
It took me three years frombeginning to end, because I was
literally stealing 15 minuteshere and 20 minutes there.
I was, I was writing on the busto work, I was writing in front
of my kids' taekwondo classes,I was just stealing time at 5.30
in the morning On your laptop,or do you have a variety?
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Okay, all right, I just saw the other day who is it
who wrote a huge chunk if notall, not all, but a huge chunk
of her book in her notes app.
It's a current.
I'll put it in the show notesas soon as I remember it, but
it's a current, yeah,best-selling book, and I don't
want to say any.
I keep getting this idea thatit's a certain one, but I don't
(10:11):
want to say it if it's not atany rate, um, I, but I think it
was in like the romance, becauseshe was talking about a scene
with her husband in the grocerystore, and it's like stuff you
couldn't make up.
So when it happens, does thatwork for you too?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, yeah, I, I, when I see something in real
life happen, I that I think is acute little scene or the spark
of a scene, then I go write itdown real quick and I'll, I'll,
I'll write it in an email andthen email it to myself.
Oh, okay, then I know, like I,I have, like I've cleared.
(10:49):
A couple of years ago I clearedout my inbox.
So when in like one message, Iknow it was really cathartic, I
have to say.
You know what I did?
I just hit select all archive.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Right, right, I don't know what I archived.
I mean there's still manypeople who are like you're
haven't responded to me's beenfive years, but yeah, yeah, oh,
let me be clear.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Unopened emails.
Unopened emails oh, yeah, yeah,okay, yeah when emails come in
now, like seeing them, it bugsme.
I'm like I don't have my clearemail box, so then it's a way
for me.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
So you're one of those inbox zero gals.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yes, I'm one of those inbox zero people, so when I
send myself a note, it bugs meenough that I have to then go
put it in the proper place,where it should be, which is in
my document for my novel.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Now what about your texts?
So if you have inbox zero, doyou also need to be at text zero
?
Yeah, Okay.
Yeah, do you not have that?
Oh, I, absolutely.
I don't have to be at inboxzero because I can't.
It's a fruit, it's, I justcan't.
I get so irritated with peoplewho are like I can't go to bed,
(12:00):
my inbox isn't at zero.
I'm like you know.
But I have a very good friendwhose inbox has to be at zero.
But I recently saw their textbullet or whatever, and it was
like 862.
Oh my God, noelle, I had apanic attack.
It was a lot.
I was like well and and theywere like well, it's all spam
(12:26):
stuff.
I said then delete it.
Yeah, just delete it.
I don't understand.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, but then I thought, maybe that's my, one of
my characters will have thatissue.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I don't know.
You know, so once you finishedwith that draft two, we'll call
it where you were ready to handit over without feeling nauseous
, did you go with beta readers?
Did you go into editing?
What was your approach?
Did you always know you wantedto traditionally publish all
these?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I was hoping to traditionally publish because,
as said single mom, I didn'twant to have the like.
I didn't want to have to figureout marketing and formatting
and all that kind of stuff.
I just knew that would be toooverwhelming for me at that
stage.
I mean, if I didn't gettraditionally published with
(13:13):
this book I would have gone downthat road for sure.
Yeah, but luckily I didn't.
So I just wanted to kind ofhave those tasks off my plate.
But what I did was I entered itinto a contest called Pitch
Wars, which was you rememberthat?
So it was the last year thatthey had Pitch Wars and you
(13:34):
submitted your MS and you got aneditor slash, mentor and I went
through that program and thenthey got me on the road of
getting an agent.
Then it took me a long time toget an agent like 40 something
queries to get an agent.
And then once I got my agent hesubmitted me.
(13:56):
But he took his time submittinglike one or two here and there.
So that took some time and thenhe decided he didn't want to be
in the business anymore.
Then I had to get a new agent,oh really yeah, so, but but by
the time he was leaving it itsold like someone okay.
Okay, so, um, it made mytransition over to another agent
(14:17):
easier because I had that um,and so it was a long process and
uh, in that process, you know,I've been writing other things,
um, because you can't waitaround.
But uh, yeah, it was, it took along time, it was a long time.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So how long was it then from?
I always like to, when possible, help better set people's
expectations for how longsomething can can take.
It doesn't have to take thislong, but it can.
So, from the publishing houseacquiring it to next week it
becoming available, how long ofa span is that?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Oh gosh, that was November of last year, so that
was a year and a half.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Really Okay.
That's about average, it seems.
I don't know I mean again thereis no normal anymore, right.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I'm feeling that Past that threshold.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So, speaking of that, have there been things that
have happened, either in thewriting or the publishing or the
getting ready to launch journey, that you really did not expect
or that you thought would godifferently?
And I don't necessarily mean ina bad way, but but if it's bad,
that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Because I had no preconceived notions and this is
part of why sometimes mynaivete works for me because I
didn't have any thought of howthings should go or how long
they should take.
I I didn't.
I didn't have too manydisappointments or excitements,
do you know?
Like I mean, I did find thewhole process took very long,
(15:50):
really long.
The whole process, whichhopefully will go faster with
subsequent books.
But yeah, it was just likeevery step of the way I've been
learning something.
So, as the process has beengoing on with publishing, like
learning about what my role isin the cover or what my role is
in the copywriting or what myrole is in the publicity, like
(16:12):
there's I've been doingpublicity for the past three
months, which is just like, ohmy God, I'm so tired and I and
it's all leading up to this nextweek, which is all very
exciting.
Like I'm I will not not saythat it's very exciting, but
it's a lot of work.
So, yeah, I think I, I think Ijust didn't have any
(16:33):
preconceived notions.
I guess I was hoping that otherpeople would do more work.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Well, okay, so thank you for leading me right into
the next one.
And this is different foreverybody, right?
So I'm very clear that justyour experience, my experience
is not probably going to be thenext person's experience, but
what kind of a say or not didyou have in cover and like, what
were?
What did you have to do?
(16:58):
You mentioned copyright, thatyou thought why do I have to do
that?
Do I have to do that?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah, no.
Well for the cover and I thinkI was pretty lucky to be able to
have any kind of say, because Ithink some people don't get any
say at all in traditionalpublishing yes, but they gave me
, you know, four options and Itold them what I liked about the
various four options and Iweighed in on what I liked and
then they kept.
They kept kind of coming backwith versions and they would say
(17:27):
we really love this, do youlove it?
And I'm like, no, I don't loveit.
It's you know, and I'd say thisis really good and this is
really good, but this has to go.
This right here has has to gowas the title.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Your original title is that title your light love
camera.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
That's my original title, yeah okay, um, well,
actually it had.
It had a title, a differenttitle, when I was just writing
it, which was taking direction,but my mentor, slash editor,
said it didn't, it was tooinsider baseball, like that's
something you say inside theindustry, taking direction.
So she said, you know, dosomething a little bit more like
describe exactly what's in thetin, like, and so I went with
(18:14):
that.
I'm like you know exactly whatthat story's about.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
It's about love on your mark is probably to insider
information.
Yeah on.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, because on your mark could be running right
Like, but yeah, that's veryinsider in love.
Sometimes you're doing that too, but you know the mark and then
, in terms of sorry, in terms ofcopywriting, I was just, I was
just shocked how many times Ihad to read it, how many times I
had to proofread it, Like theydid copy editing.
(18:41):
But then I would have to goover it again and see if there
was anything else, okay, so youdon't mean registering the
copyright.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
We're talking about editing, okay, editing like back
end editing.
Doesn't that get so tedious?
You feel like, if I have toread this thing one more time,
oh my God.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It's terrible.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
The worst Are you a person who, when you get to that
point, even though you'reprobably told only look for copy
, edit issues like commas, andand there's a double period and
there shouldn't be you go thissentence.
Can we change this?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, I am totally that person and I made the
mistake of reading some of myNetGalley reviews and I skipped
all the good reviews and wentstraight for a bad review which
was so dumb and it sent me intoa panic Like what can you share?
What it was?
It was something.
Yeah, it was something like itwas a DNF and they DNF it
(19:44):
because the pros was too purpleand I was like oh my God, Like
okay, so you're saying thingsthat people may not even.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
So DNF is did not finish Right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
And what do?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
you mean the pros is too purple nf is did not finish
right.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And what do you mean?
The prose is too purple.
I've never, when they say thatpro, like purple prose is like
when it's too flowery, whenthey're when it's not more
straight forward, and so, um,and since then I've realized
some people do think it's gotthat and other people think it's
like really well written orlike it's really really
straightforward.
So, like I, I began tounderstand that there, for every
(20:18):
bad one there, there's a,there's a good one that balances
it out.
But it sent me in an absolutepanic and so then that was right
, before I had to do the, thatpass, and I had to phone up my
editor and say, listen, I'mpanicking, like what is my job
here on this edit, because I'mabout to change everything.
And she calmed me down verykindly and then when I went in,
(20:44):
I did look, I did look for that.
I was like, okay, yeah, youknow what this sentence could be
clarified, or this sentencecould be chopped up, or you know
, I did go and do that.
So I don't know if it was morethan most or less than most, but
I for sure had a little bit.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
But you were able, they allowed you to make those.
Okay, that's great, that'sgreat.
Yeah, those early reviews canbe very difficult, yes, and it's
always.
How do you feel about, and itwould be interesting to see how
your opinion changes or doesn't,after a few months.
But how do you feel aboutlooking at your reviews?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
For me now at this state, because I'm just a baby
author, I decided not to look atany reviews.
I mean, I had my stepdaughtergo and look at reviews and I
said, just tell me the nice ones.
Because I needed to bebolstered in a way, because if I
was going to go out and sellthis book I needed to be behind
it.
I needed to feel reallyconfident about it.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
So do you mean on the net galley reviews or like on
Goodreads?
What was?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
coming out.
Net galley reviews just netgalley reviews.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
So you looked at a negative review and then you
said I'm not going to do thatanymore.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, exactly, exactly Okay, because I just
needed to protect myself.
Now I have a plan to go look atall the reviews once you know
the launch is over and I don'thave to be like super booster
for it Um, because I do thinkit's valuable to look at reviews
and just to see if there's anyany common threads, uh, with
critiques, um, both positive andnegative.
(22:16):
Uh, because I think, like it'smy first book, so I have a lot
to learn.
I didn't go to school forwriting.
I didn't.
I learned from the ground up,so I have a lot to learn, but I
couldn't.
There's also a lot of people,as you know, uh, who have
opinions, very strong opinions,without really thinking about
(22:37):
what those opinions might mean.
You kind of have to protectyourself a little bit.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, and we talk about this a lot because reviews
are valid.
I mean, I think reviews aregreat as long as they're
obviously respectful and they'renot seemingly a personal attack
.
They can help, I think, peoplefigure out what their core
readership likes and doesn'tlike.
(23:05):
So when you go into yoursubsequent books you might give
some thought to do I want to beless purple or do I want to be
whatever the suggestion might be?
And at the same time it helpsyou to establish who do I want
to be, whatever the suggestionmight be, and at the same time
it helps you to establish who doI want to be as a writer.
So you just take that input andsay, well, I want to be purple,
yeah yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I think that's the point of reviews is just to hone
your voice, hone what you wantto say, what you think is
important and what you arewilling to give up.
You know, like that's.
That's the great thing aboutworking in TV is that I, when I
first started working again, Iwould take notes to what I was
doing very much to heart.
(23:49):
But it became very hardenedbecause they are paying me to
make what they want and to nottake notes personally.
So it's easy for me to get to apoint where I'm like okay, this
isn't working.
This, this tack that I'm taking, is not working, so it needs to
be either rejigged or justabandoned.
And I just couldn't do it onthis one because I was a baby
(24:13):
author and I had to say, okay,that's not going to help me
right now.
I know it will help me down theroad, but it won't help me
right now.
So then I just had to say nomore reviews.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Well, and it's so interesting how, when we put
ourselves into something, and weare a baby at that thing, it
takes some time to not takestuff personally and to
recognize, too, that people whoare writing reviews I've often
heard Goodreads is a great placefor reviewers and it's a
horrible place for authors,because it's a place where
(24:44):
reviewers get to.
Sometimes they've just had areally bad day and it just so
happens that they read your bookthe night before, and so
they're blaming their bad day onyour main character before, and
so they're blaming their badday on your main character, and
one has nothing to do with theother.
And if, as writers, we take allof that as truth and
incorporate it, all of a suddenwe don't even know who we are as
(25:06):
writers anymore, because theyeah, it's noise exactly and and
also, you know, a lot of peoplewho are reviewing don't
actually don't necessarily.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
There's a lot of great reviewers, don't get me
wrong, but there's a lot ofpeople who are reviewing don't
actually don't necessarily.
There's a lot of greatreviewers, don't get me wrong,
but there's a lot of people whodon't necessarily know what
they're talking about.
And that same, that samereviewer who told me that that
was Purple Prose, said thatthere were all these
inconsistencies in the book andsaid this one thing was that her
hair color changed.
It was the only one theypointed out that her hair color
(25:34):
changed, that she had auburnhair.
And then another scene she hadblue, black hair.
And I'm like, looking at thescene that they're talking about
, and the reason was is becausethere were no lights.
They were in the dark, in place, with only a blue light shining
above, and I'm like it's rightthere.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I'm just impressed with someone's like of a whole
book to actually remember thosetwo things.
That's somewhat impressive ifused for good.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, yeah.
But then the thing was is, ifthey were actually paying
attention, they'd know that thelighting was different and there
was a reason why her hairlooked black.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I just, you know, I used to go and when someone
would write a really bad reviewof one of my books, I would
click on their other reviews,just for joy.
And they were always bad.
Yeah, I mean truly like 10 outof 10.
And it wasn't just books, youknow, they bought a Stairmaster
and that sucked, because youknow it was just crazy.
(26:34):
Making Marketing you brought upmarketing a little bit before
and one of the things thatyou're doing on your Instagram
that I think is so fun becauseauthors are, you know, we're
always trying to find, like,what's a creative way that I can
talk about books without alwaystalking about my book and not
being like everybody else, butalso not dancing on TikTok.
(26:54):
This is something I swear Iwill never do.
And you have this.
It's called oh, prove Me Wrong,prove Me Wrong.
And you have part one, two andthree and you're like, as a
romance author and also aromance reader, there are some
tropes that I just don't reallylike.
And then you write that Forsome reason, it made me crack up
(27:16):
.
You just write on the littlewhite.
It's not even a whiteboard,it's a flip chart.
You know?
Yeah, yeah, right, um, what thesecond one was intra romance,
or um one's Insta romance, yeah,Insta romance.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Uh uh, second chance romance that one got me.
I thought that was.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
that was so funny, oh God.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Oh yeah, and that's the funny thing.
The third one was bullies, likesome people and like the thing
is is that about Instagram?
when you're trying to find thesecreative ways, you're never
really sure what hits and whatdoesn't because it does get
really tiring of like, buy mybook, buy my book book like you
kind of got get sick of it andyou understand why other people
get sick of it too and and it'sfunny how things work in
(28:02):
different places.
So those that series which I'lluh, like I've been getting some
good feedback about onInstagram, I'll do more.
It didn't do well on TikTok atall, but this other series, yeah
, this other series I did onTikTok, which is just like me
typing on a on a on a laptop andsaying unpopular opinion.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I saw that.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, and those went crazy over on TikTok because
they're fast, you know, they'rekind of dry and snarky and
that's like they're just littleobvious things that bug you
about being a writer, and soit's.
It was interesting to see howthe different platforms
responded.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, do you like being on both platforms?
Have you been on both platformsfor a period of time or?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Here's another thing that I'm a baby at is that I
have not been on social mediasince social media began.
I'm not that person at all.
I have a Facebook page.
I had 10 Instagram things thathappened over 10 years.
I just was not into it and whenthe book started coming out, I
(29:10):
was like I got to get into itbecause this is just a thing.
Now I'm very pleased that I gotinto it, because I found out a
lot of different perspectivesand, you know, having
conversations with people, butit's really hard to figure out
how to market yourself in a waythat's not annoying or
(29:30):
repetitive, and it's a lot ofwork.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
It's a lot of work and it's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work and I thinkit has to for me for me, it has
to feel somewhat fun most of thetime or I'm going to quit.
Yeah, because I have met some ofthe most incredible people.
I'm primarily on Instagram andI have connected with some just
remarkable people who havebecome great friends and and
(29:56):
like we could go on vacationtogether.
And I'm not even sure whattheir real name is, because
their handle is, you know, Idon't know what.
I can't think of somethingright now, and that's what I
call them Right Cause I.
It's crazy.
It's like when your kids arereally little and you go to drop
them off at preschool and youknow all the other moms by their
first name, or like I'm goingon vacation with Carla's mom I
don't know her name, but it'sCarla's mom we're going away
(30:19):
together.
At the same time, social mediacan become well addictive, for
sure, I definitely have aproblem and it can also become
really negative, you know, andit can become where people are
like you have to do these things, you have to post six times a
day, you have to have a reel, acarousel, a post, a video, you
have to dance and make sureyou're controversial.
(30:41):
I just got tired just sayingall that.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's so exhausting and some people are
really good at it and I donotice there's a lot of like I
don't know, I don't know if thisis a thing you say, but like
pickaxe type people out there.
So you know, like, okay, so thegold rush in California,
everybody was going toCalifornia to make their
millions from gold, right, butthe real people who made all the
(31:05):
money were the people who soldpickaxes.
So they, because people had tobuy the pickaxe to mine the gold
, so I call them like thepickaxe people.
So all the people who are likeyou know, pay me for my thing to
to boost your thing in TikTokor like, so you can become a
creator, and I I don't.
I think those people arevaluable, for sure, because I
(31:27):
certainly contacted a few ofthem so that I could understand
social media.
Yeah, but that's sort of Ithink who are the people who are
making the money now is the.
It's the people who are tryingto teach other people how to
make money.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
How to make money.
Right, like it's the weirdcyclical thing of I'm going to
teach you how to make money, butif you stop buying my thing on
how to make money, I no longermake money, so I can't teach you
how to teach you how to.
It's weird, yeah, it's a weirdspace, yeah, but to spend all
day.
It's understandable to me whysome people, their entire career
(32:02):
is predicated on understandingwhat and I'm putting air quotes
around works because it'sdifferent.
I mean, really the best way Ifound to figure out what works
is to just keep posting stuff,because it shifts all the time
it feels like, and so it's like.
I just realized this morning Ihaven't posted in days and okay.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, that's the thing.
I just got out of a writingdeadline and I didn't post for
three or four days and I waslike I just couldn't.
I didn't have the emotionalcapacity to do it, and that's
the one thing that I thinkreally does work is when you're
authentic.
When you're authentic on there,then that's what works.
Because it works for you too,Even if it doesn't get a bunch
(32:46):
of hits.
It works for you because youfeel good about it.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Absolutely, and if you just get on and make a quick
connection or congratulatesomeone else on their book
launch or whatever, it sometimesserves as a little bit of a
pick-me-up for me anyway, yeah,like how I feel about it.
So what are you working on now?
Next book?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
So next book I've got .
Someone gave me some goodadvice about writing the
beginning, the beginning of aseries, uh, and sending it into
traditional publishing becauseit does take so long to kind of
go through the process, yeah.
So, um, I started writing atotally different series at the
(33:29):
same time and I just finishedthat and sent that off to my
agent.
Um, it's more of a spec fickind of place.
But then I also started a bookproposal in the beginnings of
the second book for Love CameraAction, which is based on the
actors this time.
So the actors are.
You know, in Love Camera Actionthe actors don't like each other
(33:53):
.
Actually, just one doesn't likethe other.
The other one's in love withher.
Yeah, and it's kind of anopposites attract story because
she's very a thoughtful actress,very interested in her craft,
went to Yale like, worked herbutt off to be where she is.
And he is this super beautifulman who was cast because he
(34:13):
looked the part and was talentscouted in a model shoot and
doesn't know a thing aboutacting, thing about acting, and
so, as a result, he is terrifiedabout what he's doing, because
it's hard being on a set whenyou don't know what you're doing
, because it's so clear thatthere's so much money being
spent around you and if you'rethe one that's stopping the
(34:36):
process then your anxietyratchets up.
So he deals with that by beingarrogant and macho and
inappropriate and so she hateshim even more because he's kind
of a jerk, absolutely.
But in the second book he hasto learn how to let go of that
(34:56):
and be the sweet, sensitive,heartfelt guy that he actually
is and get rid of all that stuffand she has to kind of deal
with.
Maybe she needs to chill out abit she needs to relax.
So you're working on both ofthose at the same time, Well the
second book, the other seriesis out to my agent, okay, it's
out.
And then I do have this bookproposal that I sent into my
(35:17):
publisher to see if they want it.
But if they do want it, great,and if they don't, then I do
have this book proposal that Isent in to my publisher to see
if they want it.
But if they do want it, great,and if they don't, then I'll
just publish it traditionally.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Okay, you mean self Self-publishing?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
yes, no, yes, I meant indie, sorry, indie.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Either way.
So, speaking of words orvocabulary that we all intermix,
how do you describe speculative?
Fiction is a term that is sointriguing to me, because people
define it very differently.
How do you define it?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Do they?
I honestly just see it as anumbrella term for anything
that's not about our reality.
Right, okay so it's fantasy,it's sci-fi, it's time travel,
it's you know, telekinesis, it'ssuperheroes.
All that to me Okay, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
That's actually possibly the best description
definition I've heard for me tounderstand it, because sometimes
it's been explained to mealmost in like a fantasy way,
using too many terms.
That's not a genre that I'mheavy into.
My daughter, my oldest daughter, had me read A Court of Thorn
(36:32):
and Roses or ACOTAR.
If you're in this ACOTAR and Icouldn't, it was really good and
I thought maybe I do like thiskind of thing, but I haven't
gone past that yet.
I I'm thinking of picking up acouple more and seeing you know
how I like it?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Well, it's totally like fantasy.
Romanticy right now is justlike bonkers.
It's gone through the roof.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
And the other thing I noticed, which is really
interesting because it's more inthe indie world, is dark
romance.
That has really exploded aswell.
It has, yes, and I find thatvery interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I find it Well, you don't have to think too hard.
I don't have to think too hardto have an idea for why dark
romance and speculative likefantasy is doing well, because
we all would like to besomewhere else.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yes, yes, yes, I think we will be somewhere else
somewhere without daylightsavings time?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
um so the last question I always ask is what?
What are you reading now?
Or what have you read recentlythat you just loved?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Yeah, well, I went through.
I just finished a big TKingfisher phase, which is
another romanticist author.
She also did a lot of kidsbooks under Ursula.
I can't remember what her herreal name is Ursula something.
And I keep going, gwen, butit's not.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Ursula Le Guin.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
That's the first thing I thought, and I thought
it can't remember what her realname is.
Ursula is something and I keepgoing, gwen, but it's not Ursula
Le Guin that's the first thingI thought and I thought it can't
be.
Ursula Le Guin yeah now she dida bunch of kids books caught
like that were dragon, aboutdragons and hamsters, which were
like separate series and sheshe publishes under T Kingfisher
, so she does romanticism butalso horror.
Oh okay, it's really interesting.
(38:23):
But then I also I'm in themiddle of this book called
Scythe, which I think is a YAnovel about like the world has
become a complete utopia butpeople have to be killed in
order to keep the populationdown.
So there are these people whoare Scythes.
I think it's a YA, actually,and it was suggested to me by a
(38:44):
book talker that I follow.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
I'm telling you that is.
The one thing, though, aboutsocial media with books that it
gives me anxiety is there arejust it's a reminder of how many
there are.
Yeah, yeah yeah, just there'sso many.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
It's a beautiful thing and it's like, oh man,
well, and books have reallyexploded, which is so
interesting to me, like at thesame time, like my industry, the
TV film industry is very muchon the decline at the moment and
it's, you know, like I've beenin the industry enough to see
when indie film was the thing,and then the golden age of
(39:21):
television, and then reality tv,and now everything has kind of
very much like it's protractingand everything's social media
and it's this very fast media aswe know, like medium and um,
but then on the other side, associal media has risen, so have
books.
Yeah, and I find that I'm like,is that just a reaction to
(39:43):
social media, where you want toslow things down and you want to
have your own very controlledenvironment within your own
imagination?
I don't know, what do you think?
Great thought.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I think for me that very well may be what it is Way
to have some insight, noelletoday into me.
That was very enlighteningBecause really it's like I like
to just sit down with the bookand I like to do it with the
book so no notifications arepopping up, because if I read on
a digital device it's usuallymy iPad and I've turned off
(40:16):
notifications now.
But I just I like feeling likeI'm in a cabin in the woods with
no daylight savings time and noelectricity and no social media
.
That is really fun for a fewhours.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, yeah, and people are really interested in
hard in in the, in the tactilebook too, like it's not
e-readers, it's like and noshade on however you read I do
find that, which is weird onBookTok or Bookstagram, that
people have very hard opinionsabout audiobooks or e-readers
(40:50):
and I'm like, however you'reconsuming, the book is great.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
That's how I feel, because everybody consumes
information in a different wayand we don't know why someone
and it doesn't matter, right, itdoesn't matter, it doesn't
matter.
It doesn't matter If you'reconsuming the information,
you're consuming the story.
You're being entertained by it.
Why, why does it matter?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting and someone pointed
out that it's actually quiteableist to say that audio books
are not good, because I've gotmy, like my, I've got my nephew
and my stepson.
Both have issues reading andthey want to listen to audio
books.
But there's a shame about audiobooks, which is so weird to me
(41:31):
it really is.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I know several people who read, especially when
they're reading something noteducational but or not, I'm
sorry, not entertainment, buteducational where it they do
really well to read the book andlisten at the same time.
There's some scientific reasonwhy that allows them to retain
the information better.
(41:53):
So I think it's so unfortunatethat people will suggest that if
you re, if you listen, if youread air quotes via an audio,
you're not really a reader.
Yeah, I think that's ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
I hate that I hate that and there's so many like
audio books are also goingthrough the roof with, like, big
actors doing arts and, you know, big productions, and I think
that's really cool, like that'svery cool that we're going.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, I know, I mean just let, let's just have
something grow here, yeah, yeahyeah, yes anything please well,
thank you.
I will put all of the links toeverything in the show notes and
I'm so excited for next week,so so seven days counting down
love camera action and thank youso much for having me on.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
This was very fun.
It was very You're so welcome.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
I hope you'll come back and we can talk about what
happened later.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
It'll be like Andy Cohen.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
What do they call?
What is Andy Cohen's showcalled?
Watch what Happens Live.
Oh, I don't know that I'm gonnaI mean we live.
Oh, I don't know.
I mean we won't be live.
But it can kind of be like awatch what happens live, like
watch what happened, not livewith.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
No, yeah yeah, oh, what are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
oh, what a great question how long is the day?
Okay, so, um, I'm currentlyreading I just started melissa
de la cruz's most recent novel,when stars align.
When stars align yeah, very,very good.
And I'm reading severalmanuscripts that I'm editing, so
there's always that.
And, uh, I just finished one,though that I really well moms
(43:35):
like us by Jordan Roeder.
I don't think it's out yet.
Oh, my god, it's hilarious.
It's okay, so good.
It's LA moms and it's like awhole big little lies meets bad
sisters or something.
It's just fabulous.
Okay, good, put that on yourlist for sure it is down.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I have written it down.
It's a good one, it's a goodone.
Cool.
Has no one ever asked you whatyou're reading?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
No one has ever asked me what I'm reading.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
That is a crime.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Which is probably good, because it's like a stack
and it's not nothing's related,nothing has to do.
It makes no sense.
It probably says somethingabout me, like I think you can
learn a lot about somebody byasking them what are you reading
?
Even if they say nothing,you've just learned something.
Yes, exactly, Not bad or goodjust something.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
I think your pile probably means you're a very
smart, talented person.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Thank you so much.
That's what it says.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message, but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
(44:55):
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at Elizabeth Lyons.
Author.
Hi everybody.
So I don't really know what ishappening with TV writers, but
I'm not mad about it.
Several episodes ago I talkedwith Michael Jammin and then I
think two if not three episodesago, was Jordan Roeder, and
today I had so much fun talkingto Noelle Stark.
(01:27):
Noelle has worked in almostevery position.
She lists them out and she'snot.
It's to say, almost everyposition is not an exaggeration
In the film and TV industry.
She's been in front of thecamera, behind the camera.
She's Canadian, but she livesin LA with her young son.
And oh, this is where I is,where I had asked her in the
(01:47):
podcast, where I found out thisfun fact about her and I guess
it was right here in her Aboutpage she likes chocolate milk in
her coffee, which we had tohave a chat about because that
felt like new and it did notdisappoint the conversation
about chocolate milk and whatchocolate milk and where she
gets the chocolate milk andwhere she gets the like, what
chocolate milk and where shegets the chocolate milk.
What was really amazing wastalking about the transition and
(02:10):
the sort of comparison, I guess, between being a TV writer and
then writing her debut novel,love Camera Action, which comes
out on the 22nd so as of the airdate of this podcast, it would
have been yesterday, april 22ndof 2025, and how she took her
experiences in the TV world andparlayed them into this novel,
(02:33):
how long it actually took towrite, how long it took to get
sold, how long it took to comeout, and then all of the
marketing stuff that she did anddidn't anticipate on the back
end and how she's navigating allof it.
It was a really funconversation and, as usual, I
have all of her links in theshow notes so that you can find
her and follow her.
She has a really fun couple oflittle repeat bits that she does
(02:55):
on her Instagram profile that Ilaughed out loud at one of them
and I'm betting you will too.
So those are all in the episodenotes.
Let's just get on with theconversation.
Your post about daylightsavings Are you in LA?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
I am in LA, okay, well.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
I'm in Phoenix where we don't have daylight savings
time.
Oh, you're so lucky.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
You're not lucky why?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
because everybody else's schedule changes so I
have to like adjust everything Isee, yeah, that is a pain.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I just want everyone to stop.
We have a similar I'm canadianthere we have a similar thing in
saskatchewan.
Saskatchewan, that wholeprovince, is not on daylight
savings and that's why everybody, oh well, why do we have it
still?
And it's like, oh, because ofthe farmers, and it's not
because of the farmers, it's notbecause of the farmers.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
A hundred, it can't be, and I it's just exhausting.
So two weeks out of the year,right Six months apart, I just
let people know I'm going to bean hour early or an hour late,
or I'm just not going to show upat all, and I guess you can
blame the farmers, that's.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
Um so non book related question.
First chocolate milk in yourcoffee.
Talk to me about this.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
This is like way more controversial than I ever
thought it would be.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
It was like the first thing where I don't know where
I saw it.
Where would I've seen that?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
It's in my because, like I think, my publicist.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Maybe that's where then?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
okay, yeah, yeah, um, okay.
So I either drink my coffeeblack or with chocolate milk.
Okay and uh, it is honestly oneof my favorite favorite things
is it like a specific kind ofchocolate?
Milk like, oh you know like,the best is in those like like
glass bottles.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
I knew you were going to say that.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, yeah, but they're $900.
I was just going to say thattoo.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Exactly, but yeah, they make you feel really fancy.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
So fancy.
So fancy and like organic andlike all the things, but it's
also just better chocolate milk.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
I take your word for it, cause I haven't actually
tried it.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Right, but maybe I should, because when was the
last time you had chocolate milk?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, like maybe you're eight or nine years old.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Exactly, which was just eons ago.
Yeah, so talk to me about thisbook and how it came, cause it
comes out a week from today.
Yeah, yes.
Oh my gosh, it's the 15th, so22nd the 22nd it comes out, yeah
love camera action and I lovejust to play on that word for a
(05:38):
minute how, when people I thereseems to be a TV writer thing
happening over here, becauseJordan Roeder was on a couple of
weeks ago and Michael Jammonwas on, and so I love, I'm, I'm
very intrigued by when you'reused to writing for TV or being
in the TV space and thentranslating that over.
So just tell me all the things.
(05:59):
Yeah, okay, so well.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
I, I.
I work in in tv, but I work ina lot of different types of
formats.
I have worked in scripted, butI've also worked a ton in
reality, um, as a writer, as aproducer, as an actress, as a
director, as a PA, as alocations assist in casting.
Like everything I have donealmost every single role.
Speaker 1 (06:24):
I just saw Paw Patrol and I didn't watch Paw Patrol,
but my best friend's son, who'snow nine, was completely
obsessed with Paw Patrol and mygirlfriend, natalie, would say I
can't stop singing Like it,just it was bad, she couldn't
stop.
So when I saw that, I had tolaugh, and I'll have to let her
(06:44):
know that we chatted, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah, papa trolled that.
Like children's TV too, likeI've done, I've done voice work
in children's TV.
Yeah, I've pretty much hit itfrom every side.
So when I decided naively towrite a romance novel because I
really didn't, although, youknow, I knew the books took a
lot of work For some reason Ithought a romance novel would
(07:08):
take less work.
I don't know why I had thatimpression.
It's completely wrong, but Idid have that impression.
I thought I was going through ahuge romance reading binge and
I just really loved the form andI said you know what, I can
write one of these Famous lastwords right, famous last words.
(07:33):
But I wanted to write a bookthat I didn't have to spend a
lot of time building the world,because I wanted to focus on the
characters.
I wanted to focus on thestructure, I wanted to focus
just, you know, getting my feetunder me.
So, you know, write what youknow.
And that was the world of TV.
And also, you know, I had reada lot of Hollywood romances and
I noticed that a lot of them arefocused on the actors or on the
(07:54):
writers sometimes, but notreally on the crew.
So I wanted to write this bookabout the director, who's a
woman, and her director ofphotography, who's a guy, and
their trials and tribulations asthey fall in love on set.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So what and like what ?
Was there an initial momentwhere you kind of thought, man,
this is a lot harder than Ithought it was going to be?
Speaker 2 (08:17):
yeah, like almost every step of the way are you a
plotter or a pantser?
or somewhere in between.
For this book I was a pantser,which, now that I've, I've
written more I'm, I've, I'm aplantser, as they call it.
It helps to plot things out andthen throw them out later Um
(08:39):
and uh, and then, you know, justlet the pantsing stuff kind of
come in.
But it took me so much longerbecause I was a pantser, like I
would go off on tangents that Ihad to reel myself back from and
realize certain things hadnothing to do with the story.
So yeah, I'm in that middleground.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
So how long did it take you then to finish?
Let's just call it what's draft, one which is, you know, draft
one of 672.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
But yeah, I mean I would say, okay, I'll say, I'll
say draft two, just because Iwas bouncing around a lot and
I'm a, I'm a single mom, uh huh.
So, and I work in TV, which isvery demanding, so my time was
not, it was scarce, my time isscarce.
So getting it to a place wheresomeone could read it and I
didn't feel nauseous about themreading it which I'll call the
(09:29):
second draft took me three years.
It took me three years frombeginning to end, because I was
literally stealing 15 minuteshere and 20 minutes there.
I was, I was writing on the busto work, I was writing in front
of my kids' taekwondo classes,I was just stealing time at 5.30
in the morning On your laptop,or do you have a variety?
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Okay, all right, I just saw the other day who is it
who wrote a huge chunk if notall, not all, but a huge chunk
of her book in her notes app.
It's a current.
I'll put it in the show notesas soon as I remember it, but
it's a current, yeah,best-selling book, and I don't
want to say any.
I keep getting this idea thatit's a certain one, but I don't
(10:11):
want to say it if it's not atany rate, um, I, but I think it
was in like the romance, becauseshe was talking about a scene
with her husband in the grocerystore, and it's like stuff you
couldn't make up.
So when it happens, does thatwork for you too?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yeah, yeah, I, I, when I see something in real
life happen, I that I think is acute little scene or the spark
of a scene, then I go write itdown real quick and I'll, I'll,
I'll write it in an email andthen email it to myself.
Oh, okay, then I know, like I,I have, like I've cleared.
(10:49):
A couple of years ago I clearedout my inbox.
So when in like one message, Iknow it was really cathartic, I
have to say.
You know what I did?
I just hit select all archive.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Right, right, I don't know what I archived.
I mean there's still manypeople who are like you're
haven't responded to me's beenfive years, but yeah, yeah, oh,
let me be clear.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Unopened emails.
Unopened emails oh, yeah, yeah,okay, yeah when emails come in
now, like seeing them, it bugsme.
I'm like I don't have my clearemail box, so then it's a way
for me.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
So you're one of those inbox zero gals.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Yes, I'm one of those inbox zero people, so when I
send myself a note, it bugs meenough that I have to then go
put it in the proper place,where it should be, which is in
my document for my novel.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Now what about your texts?
So if you have inbox zero, doyou also need to be at text zero
?
Yeah, Okay.
Yeah, do you not have that?
Oh, I, absolutely.
I don't have to be at inboxzero because I can't.
It's a fruit, it's, I justcan't.
I get so irritated with peoplewho are like I can't go to bed,
(12:00):
my inbox isn't at zero.
I'm like you know.
But I have a very good friendwhose inbox has to be at zero.
But I recently saw their textbullet or whatever, and it was
like 862.
Oh my God, noelle, I had apanic attack.
It was a lot.
I was like well and and theywere like well, it's all spam
(12:26):
stuff.
I said then delete it.
Yeah, just delete it.
I don't understand.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Yeah, but then I thought, maybe that's my, one of
my characters will have thatissue.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
I don't know.
You know, so once you finishedwith that draft two, we'll call
it where you were ready to handit over without feeling nauseous
, did you go with beta readers?
Did you go into editing?
What was your approach?
Did you always know you wantedto traditionally publish all
these?
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I was hoping to traditionally publish because,
as said single mom, I didn'twant to have the like.
I didn't want to have to figureout marketing and formatting
and all that kind of stuff.
I just knew that would be toooverwhelming for me at that
stage.
I mean, if I didn't gettraditionally published with
(13:13):
this book I would have gone downthat road for sure.
Yeah, but luckily I didn't.
So I just wanted to kind ofhave those tasks off my plate.
But what I did was I entered itinto a contest called Pitch
Wars, which was you rememberthat?
So it was the last year thatthey had Pitch Wars and you
(13:34):
submitted your MS and you got aneditor slash, mentor and I went
through that program and thenthey got me on the road of
getting an agent.
Then it took me a long time toget an agent like 40 something
queries to get an agent.
And then once I got my agent hesubmitted me.
(13:56):
But he took his time submittinglike one or two here and there.
So that took some time and thenhe decided he didn't want to be
in the business anymore.
Then I had to get a new agent,oh really yeah, so, but but by
the time he was leaving it itsold like someone okay.
Okay, so, um, it made mytransition over to another agent
(14:17):
easier because I had that um,and so it was a long process and
uh, in that process, you know,I've been writing other things,
um, because you can't waitaround.
But uh, yeah, it was, it took along time, it was a long time.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
So how long was it then from?
I always like to, when possible, help better set people's
expectations for how longsomething can can take.
It doesn't have to take thislong, but it can.
So, from the publishing houseacquiring it to next week it
becoming available, how long ofa span is that?
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Oh gosh, that was November of last year, so that
was a year and a half.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Really Okay.
That's about average, it seems.
I don't know I mean again thereis no normal anymore, right.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
I'm feeling that Past that threshold.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
So, speaking of that, have there been things that
have happened, either in thewriting or the publishing or the
getting ready to launch journey, that you really did not expect
or that you thought would godifferently?
And I don't necessarily mean ina bad way, but but if it's bad,
that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Because I had no preconceived notions and this is
part of why sometimes mynaivete works for me because I
didn't have any thought of howthings should go or how long
they should take.
I I didn't.
I didn't have too manydisappointments or excitements,
do you know?
Like I mean, I did find thewhole process took very long,
(15:50):
really long.
The whole process, whichhopefully will go faster with
subsequent books.
But yeah, it was just likeevery step of the way I've been
learning something.
So, as the process has beengoing on with publishing, like
learning about what my role isin the cover or what my role is
in the copywriting or what myrole is in the publicity, like
(16:12):
there's I've been doingpublicity for the past three
months, which is just like, ohmy God, I'm so tired and I and
it's all leading up to this nextweek, which is all very
exciting.
Like I'm I will not not saythat it's very exciting, but
it's a lot of work.
So, yeah, I think I, I think Ijust didn't have any
(16:33):
preconceived notions.
I guess I was hoping that otherpeople would do more work.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
Well, okay, so thank you for leading me right into
the next one.
And this is different foreverybody, right?
So I'm very clear that justyour experience, my experience
is not probably going to be thenext person's experience, but
what kind of a say or not didyou have in cover and like, what
were?
What did you have to do?
(16:58):
You mentioned copyright, thatyou thought why do I have to do
that?
Do I have to do that?
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, yeah, no.
Well for the cover and I thinkI was pretty lucky to be able to
have any kind of say, because Ithink some people don't get any
say at all in traditionalpublishing yes, but they gave me
, you know, four options and Itold them what I liked about the
various four options and Iweighed in on what I liked and
then they kept.
They kept kind of coming backwith versions and they would say
(17:27):
we really love this, do youlove it?
And I'm like, no, I don't loveit.
It's you know, and I'd say thisis really good and this is
really good, but this has to go.
This right here has has to gowas the title.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Your original title is that title your light love
camera.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
That's my original title, yeah okay, um, well,
actually it had.
It had a title, a differenttitle, when I was just writing
it, which was taking direction,but my mentor, slash editor,
said it didn't, it was tooinsider baseball, like that's
something you say inside theindustry, taking direction.
So she said, you know, dosomething a little bit more like
describe exactly what's in thetin, like, and so I went with
(18:14):
that.
I'm like you know exactly whatthat story's about.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
It's about love on your mark is probably to insider
information.
Yeah on.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, because on your mark could be running right
Like, but yeah, that's veryinsider in love.
Sometimes you're doing that too, but you know the mark and then
, in terms of sorry, in terms ofcopywriting, I was just, I was
just shocked how many times Ihad to read it, how many times I
had to proofread it, Like theydid copy editing.
(18:41):
But then I would have to goover it again and see if there
was anything else, okay, so youdon't mean registering the
copyright.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
We're talking about editing, okay, editing like back
end editing.
Doesn't that get so tedious?
You feel like, if I have toread this thing one more time,
oh my God.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
It's terrible.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
The worst Are you a person who, when you get to that
point, even though you'reprobably told only look for copy
, edit issues like commas, andand there's a double period and
there shouldn't be you go thissentence.
Can we change this?
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Yeah, I am totally that person and I made the
mistake of reading some of myNetGalley reviews and I skipped
all the good reviews and wentstraight for a bad review which
was so dumb and it sent me intoa panic Like what can you share?
What it was?
It was something.
Yeah, it was something like itwas a DNF and they DNF it
(19:44):
because the pros was too purpleand I was like oh my God, Like
okay, so you're saying thingsthat people may not even.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
So DNF is did not finish Right.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
And what do?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
you mean the pros is too purple nf is did not finish
right.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
And what do you mean?
The prose is too purple.
I've never, when they say thatpro, like purple prose is like
when it's too flowery, whenthey're when it's not more
straight forward, and so, um,and since then I've realized
some people do think it's gotthat and other people think it's
like really well written orlike it's really really
straightforward.
So, like I, I began tounderstand that there, for every
(20:18):
bad one there, there's a,there's a good one that balances
it out.
But it sent me in an absolutepanic and so then that was right
, before I had to do the, thatpass, and I had to phone up my
editor and say, listen, I'mpanicking, like what is my job
here on this edit, because I'mabout to change everything.
And she calmed me down verykindly and then when I went in,
(20:44):
I did look, I did look for that.
I was like, okay, yeah, youknow what this sentence could be
clarified, or this sentencecould be chopped up, or you know
, I did go and do that.
So I don't know if it was morethan most or less than most, but
I for sure had a little bit.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
But you were able, they allowed you to make those.
Okay, that's great, that'sgreat.
Yeah, those early reviews canbe very difficult, yes, and it's
always.
How do you feel about, and itwould be interesting to see how
your opinion changes or doesn't,after a few months.
But how do you feel aboutlooking at your reviews?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
For me now at this state, because I'm just a baby
author, I decided not to look atany reviews.
I mean, I had my stepdaughtergo and look at reviews and I
said, just tell me the nice ones.
Because I needed to bebolstered in a way, because if I
was going to go out and sellthis book I needed to be behind
it.
I needed to feel reallyconfident about it.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
So do you mean on the net galley reviews or like on
Goodreads?
What was?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
coming out.
Net galley reviews just netgalley reviews.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
So you looked at a negative review and then you
said I'm not going to do thatanymore.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, exactly, exactly Okay, because I just
needed to protect myself.
Now I have a plan to go look atall the reviews once you know
the launch is over and I don'thave to be like super booster
for it Um, because I do thinkit's valuable to look at reviews
and just to see if there's anyany common threads, uh, with
critiques, um, both positive andnegative.
(22:16):
Uh, because I think, like it'smy first book, so I have a lot
to learn.
I didn't go to school forwriting.
I didn't.
I learned from the ground up,so I have a lot to learn, but I
couldn't.
There's also a lot of people,as you know, uh, who have
opinions, very strong opinions,without really thinking about
(22:37):
what those opinions might mean.
You kind of have to protectyourself a little bit.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, and we talk about this a lot because reviews
are valid.
I mean, I think reviews aregreat as long as they're
obviously respectful and they'renot seemingly a personal attack
.
They can help, I think, peoplefigure out what their core
readership likes and doesn'tlike.
(23:05):
So when you go into yoursubsequent books you might give
some thought to do I want to beless purple or do I want to be
whatever the suggestion might be?
And at the same time it helpsyou to establish who do I want
to be, whatever the suggestionmight be, and at the same time
it helps you to establish who doI want to be as a writer.
So you just take that input andsay, well, I want to be purple,
yeah yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I think that's the point of reviews is just to hone
your voice, hone what you wantto say, what you think is
important and what you arewilling to give up.
You know, like that's.
That's the great thing aboutworking in TV is that I, when I
first started working again, Iwould take notes to what I was
doing very much to heart.
(23:49):
But it became very hardenedbecause they are paying me to
make what they want and to nottake notes personally.
So it's easy for me to get to apoint where I'm like okay, this
isn't working.
This, this tack that I'm taking, is not working, so it needs to
be either rejigged or justabandoned.
And I just couldn't do it onthis one because I was a baby
(24:13):
author and I had to say, okay,that's not going to help me
right now.
I know it will help me down theroad, but it won't help me
right now.
So then I just had to say nomore reviews.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Well, and it's so interesting how, when we put
ourselves into something, and weare a baby at that thing, it
takes some time to not takestuff personally and to
recognize, too, that people whoare writing reviews I've often
heard Goodreads is a great placefor reviewers and it's a
horrible place for authors,because it's a place where
(24:44):
reviewers get to.
Sometimes they've just had areally bad day and it just so
happens that they read your bookthe night before, and so
they're blaming their bad day onyour main character before, and
so they're blaming their badday on your main character, and
one has nothing to do with theother.
And if, as writers, we take allof that as truth and
incorporate it, all of a suddenwe don't even know who we are as
(25:06):
writers anymore, because theyeah, it's noise exactly and and
also, you know, a lot of peoplewho are reviewing don't
actually don't necessarily.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
There's a lot of great reviewers, don't get me
wrong, but there's a lot ofpeople who are reviewing don't
actually don't necessarily.
There's a lot of greatreviewers, don't get me wrong,
but there's a lot of people whodon't necessarily know what
they're talking about.
And that same, that samereviewer who told me that that
was Purple Prose, said thatthere were all these
inconsistencies in the book andsaid this one thing was that her
hair color changed.
It was the only one theypointed out that her hair color
(25:34):
changed, that she had auburnhair.
And then another scene she hadblue, black hair.
And I'm like, looking at thescene that they're talking about
, and the reason was is becausethere were no lights.
They were in the dark, in place, with only a blue light shining
above, and I'm like it's rightthere.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
I'm just impressed with someone's like of a whole
book to actually remember thosetwo things.
That's somewhat impressive ifused for good.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah, yeah.
But then the thing was is, ifthey were actually paying
attention, they'd know that thelighting was different and there
was a reason why her hairlooked black.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
I just, you know, I used to go and when someone
would write a really bad reviewof one of my books, I would
click on their other reviews,just for joy.
And they were always bad.
Yeah, I mean truly like 10 outof 10.
And it wasn't just books, youknow, they bought a Stairmaster
and that sucked, because youknow it was just crazy.
(26:34):
Making Marketing you brought upmarketing a little bit before
and one of the things thatyou're doing on your Instagram
that I think is so fun becauseauthors are, you know, we're
always trying to find, like,what's a creative way that I can
talk about books without alwaystalking about my book and not
being like everybody else, butalso not dancing on TikTok.
(26:54):
This is something I swear Iwill never do.
And you have this.
It's called oh, prove Me Wrong,prove Me Wrong.
And you have part one, two andthree and you're like, as a
romance author and also aromance reader, there are some
tropes that I just don't reallylike.
And then you write that Forsome reason, it made me crack up
(27:16):
.
You just write on the littlewhite.
It's not even a whiteboard,it's a flip chart.
You know?
Yeah, yeah, right, um, what thesecond one was intra romance,
or um one's Insta romance, yeah,Insta romance.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Uh uh, second chance romance that one got me.
I thought that was.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
that was so funny, oh God.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Oh yeah, and that's the funny thing.
The third one was bullies, likesome people and like the thing
is is that about Instagram?
when you're trying to find thesecreative ways, you're never
really sure what hits and whatdoesn't because it does get
really tiring of like, buy mybook, buy my book book like you
kind of got get sick of it andyou understand why other people
get sick of it too and and it'sfunny how things work in
(28:02):
different places.
So those that series which I'lluh, like I've been getting some
good feedback about onInstagram, I'll do more.
It didn't do well on TikTok atall, but this other series, yeah
, this other series I did onTikTok, which is just like me
typing on a on a on a laptop andsaying unpopular opinion.
Speaker 1 (28:21):
I saw that.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, and those went crazy over on TikTok because
they're fast, you know, they'rekind of dry and snarky and
that's like they're just littleobvious things that bug you
about being a writer, and soit's.
It was interesting to see howthe different platforms
responded.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, do you like being on both platforms?
Have you been on both platformsfor a period of time or?
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Here's another thing that I'm a baby at is that I
have not been on social mediasince social media began.
I'm not that person at all.
I have a Facebook page.
I had 10 Instagram things thathappened over 10 years.
I just was not into it and whenthe book started coming out, I
(29:10):
was like I got to get into itbecause this is just a thing.
Now I'm very pleased that I gotinto it, because I found out a
lot of different perspectivesand, you know, having
conversations with people, butit's really hard to figure out
how to market yourself in a waythat's not annoying or
(29:30):
repetitive, and it's a lot ofwork.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
It's a lot of work and it's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work and I thinkit has to for me for me, it has
to feel somewhat fun most of thetime or I'm going to quit.
Yeah, because I have met some ofthe most incredible people.
I'm primarily on Instagram andI have connected with some just
remarkable people who havebecome great friends and and
(29:56):
like we could go on vacationtogether.
And I'm not even sure whattheir real name is, because
their handle is, you know, Idon't know what.
I can't think of somethingright now, and that's what I
call them Right Cause I.
It's crazy.
It's like when your kids arereally little and you go to drop
them off at preschool and youknow all the other moms by their
first name, or like I'm goingon vacation with Carla's mom I
don't know her name, but it'sCarla's mom we're going away
(30:19):
together.
At the same time, social mediacan become well addictive, for
sure, I definitely have aproblem and it can also become
really negative, you know, andit can become where people are
like you have to do these things, you have to post six times a
day, you have to have a reel, acarousel, a post, a video, you
have to dance and make sureyou're controversial.
(30:41):
I just got tired just sayingall that.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's so exhausting and some people are
really good at it and I donotice there's a lot of like I
don't know, I don't know if thisis a thing you say, but like
pickaxe type people out there.
So you know, like, okay, so thegold rush in California,
everybody was going toCalifornia to make their
millions from gold, right, butthe real people who made all the
(31:05):
money were the people who soldpickaxes.
So they, because people had tobuy the pickaxe to mine the gold
, so I call them like thepickaxe people.
So all the people who are likeyou know, pay me for my thing to
to boost your thing in TikTokor like, so you can become a
creator, and I I don't.
I think those people arevaluable, for sure, because I
(31:27):
certainly contacted a few ofthem so that I could understand
social media.
Yeah, but that's sort of Ithink who are the people who are
making the money now is the.
It's the people who are tryingto teach other people how to
make money.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
How to make money.
Right, like it's the weirdcyclical thing of I'm going to
teach you how to make money, butif you stop buying my thing on
how to make money, I no longermake money, so I can't teach you
how to teach you how to.
It's weird, yeah, it's a weirdspace, yeah, but to spend all
day.
It's understandable to me whysome people, their entire career
(32:02):
is predicated on understandingwhat and I'm putting air quotes
around works because it'sdifferent.
I mean, really the best way Ifound to figure out what works
is to just keep posting stuff,because it shifts all the time
it feels like, and so it's like.
I just realized this morning Ihaven't posted in days and okay.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, that's the thing.
I just got out of a writingdeadline and I didn't post for
three or four days and I waslike I just couldn't.
I didn't have the emotionalcapacity to do it, and that's
the one thing that I thinkreally does work is when you're
authentic.
When you're authentic on there,then that's what works.
Because it works for you too,Even if it doesn't get a bunch
(32:46):
of hits.
It works for you because youfeel good about it.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Absolutely, and if you just get on and make a quick
connection or congratulatesomeone else on their book
launch or whatever, it sometimesserves as a little bit of a
pick-me-up for me anyway, yeah,like how I feel about it.
So what are you working on now?
Next book?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
So next book I've got .
Someone gave me some goodadvice about writing the
beginning, the beginning of aseries, uh, and sending it into
traditional publishing becauseit does take so long to kind of
go through the process, yeah.
So, um, I started writing atotally different series at the
(33:29):
same time and I just finishedthat and sent that off to my
agent.
Um, it's more of a spec fickind of place.
But then I also started a bookproposal in the beginnings of
the second book for Love CameraAction, which is based on the
actors this time.
So the actors are.
You know, in Love Camera Actionthe actors don't like each other
(33:53):
.
Actually, just one doesn't likethe other.
The other one's in love withher.
Yeah, and it's kind of anopposites attract story because
she's very a thoughtful actress,very interested in her craft,
went to Yale like, worked herbutt off to be where she is.
And he is this super beautifulman who was cast because he
(34:13):
looked the part and was talentscouted in a model shoot and
doesn't know a thing aboutacting, thing about acting, and
so, as a result, he is terrifiedabout what he's doing, because
it's hard being on a set whenyou don't know what you're doing
, because it's so clear thatthere's so much money being
spent around you and if you'rethe one that's stopping the
(34:36):
process then your anxietyratchets up.
So he deals with that by beingarrogant and macho and
inappropriate and so she hateshim even more because he's kind
of a jerk, absolutely.
But in the second book he hasto learn how to let go of that
(34:56):
and be the sweet, sensitive,heartfelt guy that he actually
is and get rid of all that stuffand she has to kind of deal
with.
Maybe she needs to chill out abit she needs to relax.
So you're working on both ofthose at the same time, Well the
second book, the other seriesis out to my agent, okay, it's
out.
And then I do have this bookproposal that I sent into my
(35:17):
publisher to see if they want it.
But if they do want it, great,and if they don't, then I do
have this book proposal that Isent in to my publisher to see
if they want it.
But if they do want it, great,and if they don't, then I'll
just publish it traditionally.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Okay, you mean self Self-publishing?
Speaker 2 (35:31):
yes, no, yes, I meant indie, sorry, indie.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Either way.
So, speaking of words orvocabulary that we all intermix,
how do you describe speculative?
Fiction is a term that is sointriguing to me, because people
define it very differently.
How do you define it?
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Do they?
I honestly just see it as anumbrella term for anything
that's not about our reality.
Right, okay so it's fantasy,it's sci-fi, it's time travel,
it's you know, telekinesis, it'ssuperheroes.
All that to me Okay, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
That's actually possibly the best description
definition I've heard for me tounderstand it, because sometimes
it's been explained to mealmost in like a fantasy way,
using too many terms.
That's not a genre that I'mheavy into.
My daughter, my oldest daughter, had me read A Court of Thorn
(36:32):
and Roses or ACOTAR.
If you're in this ACOTAR and Icouldn't, it was really good and
I thought maybe I do like thiskind of thing, but I haven't
gone past that yet.
I I'm thinking of picking up acouple more and seeing you know
how I like it?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Well, it's totally like fantasy.
Romanticy right now is justlike bonkers.
It's gone through the roof.
Speaker 1 (36:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
And the other thing I noticed, which is really
interesting because it's more inthe indie world, is dark
romance.
That has really exploded aswell.
It has, yes, and I find thatvery interesting yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
I find it Well, you don't have to think too hard.
I don't have to think too hardto have an idea for why dark
romance and speculative likefantasy is doing well, because
we all would like to besomewhere else.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Yes, yes, yes, I think we will be somewhere else
somewhere without daylightsavings time?
Speaker 1 (37:36):
um so the last question I always ask is what?
What are you reading now?
Or what have you read recentlythat you just loved?
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Yeah, well, I went through.
I just finished a big TKingfisher phase, which is
another romanticist author.
She also did a lot of kidsbooks under Ursula.
I can't remember what her herreal name is Ursula something.
And I keep going, gwen, butit's not.
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Ursula Le Guin.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
That's the first thing I thought, and I thought
it can't remember what her realname is.
Ursula is something and I keepgoing, gwen, but it's not Ursula
Le Guin that's the first thingI thought and I thought it can't
be.
Ursula Le Guin yeah now she dida bunch of kids books caught
like that were dragon, aboutdragons and hamsters, which were
like separate series and sheshe publishes under T Kingfisher
, so she does romanticism butalso horror.
Oh okay, it's really interesting.
(38:23):
But then I also I'm in themiddle of this book called
Scythe, which I think is a YAnovel about like the world has
become a complete utopia butpeople have to be killed in
order to keep the populationdown.
So there are these people whoare Scythes.
I think it's a YA, actually,and it was suggested to me by a
(38:44):
book talker that I follow.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
I'm telling you that is.
The one thing, though, aboutsocial media with books that it
gives me anxiety is there arejust it's a reminder of how many
there are.
Yeah, yeah yeah, just there'sso many.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
It's a beautiful thing and it's like, oh man,
well, and books have reallyexploded, which is so
interesting to me, like at thesame time, like my industry, the
TV film industry is very muchon the decline at the moment and
it's, you know, like I've beenin the industry enough to see
when indie film was the thing,and then the golden age of
(39:21):
television, and then reality tv,and now everything has kind of
very much like it's protractingand everything's social media
and it's this very fast media aswe know, like medium and um,
but then on the other side, associal media has risen, so have
books.
Yeah, and I find that I'm like,is that just a reaction to
(39:43):
social media, where you want toslow things down and you want to
have your own very controlledenvironment within your own
imagination?
I don't know, what do you think?
Great thought.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I think for me that very well may be what it is Way
to have some insight, noelletoday into me.
That was very enlighteningBecause really it's like I like
to just sit down with the bookand I like to do it with the
book so no notifications arepopping up, because if I read on
a digital device it's usuallymy iPad and I've turned off
(40:16):
notifications now.
But I just I like feeling likeI'm in a cabin in the woods with
no daylight savings time and noelectricity and no social media
.
That is really fun for a fewhours.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, yeah, and people are really interested in
hard in in the, in the tactilebook too, like it's not
e-readers, it's like and noshade on however you read I do
find that, which is weird onBookTok or Bookstagram, that
people have very hard opinionsabout audiobooks or e-readers
(40:50):
and I'm like, however you'reconsuming, the book is great.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
That's how I feel, because everybody consumes
information in a different wayand we don't know why someone
and it doesn't matter, right, itdoesn't matter, it doesn't
matter.
It doesn't matter If you'reconsuming the information,
you're consuming the story.
You're being entertained by it.
Why, why does it matter?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting and someone pointed
out that it's actually quiteableist to say that audio books
are not good, because I've gotmy, like my, I've got my nephew
and my stepson.
Both have issues reading andthey want to listen to audio
books.
But there's a shame about audiobooks, which is so weird to me
(41:31):
it really is.
Speaker 1 (41:32):
I know several people who read, especially when
they're reading something noteducational but or not, I'm
sorry, not entertainment, buteducational where it they do
really well to read the book andlisten at the same time.
There's some scientific reasonwhy that allows them to retain
the information better.
(41:53):
So I think it's so unfortunatethat people will suggest that if
you re, if you listen, if youread air quotes via an audio,
you're not really a reader.
Yeah, I think that's ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
I hate that I hate that and there's so many like
audio books are also goingthrough the roof with, like, big
actors doing arts and, you know, big productions, and I think
that's really cool, like that'svery cool that we're going.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, I know, I mean just let, let's just have
something grow here, yeah, yeahyeah, yes anything please well,
thank you.
I will put all of the links toeverything in the show notes and
I'm so excited for next week,so so seven days counting down
love camera action and thank youso much for having me on.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
This was very fun.
It was very You're so welcome.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
I hope you'll come back and we can talk about what
happened later.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
It'll be like Andy Cohen.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
What do they call?
What is Andy Cohen's showcalled?
Watch what Happens Live.
Oh, I don't know that I'm gonnaI mean we live.
Oh, I don't know.
I mean we won't be live.
But it can kind of be like awatch what happens live, like
watch what happened, not livewith.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
No, yeah yeah, oh, what are you reading right now?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
oh, what a great question how long is the day?
Okay, so, um, I'm currentlyreading I just started melissa
de la cruz's most recent novel,when stars align.
When stars align yeah, very,very good.
And I'm reading severalmanuscripts that I'm editing, so
there's always that.
And, uh, I just finished one,though that I really well moms
(43:35):
like us by Jordan Roeder.
I don't think it's out yet.
Oh, my god, it's hilarious.
It's okay, so good.
It's LA moms and it's like awhole big little lies meets bad
sisters or something.
It's just fabulous.
Okay, good, put that on yourlist for sure it is down.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I have written it down.
It's a good one, it's a goodone.
Cool.
Has no one ever asked you whatyou're reading?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
No one has ever asked me what I'm reading.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
That is a crime.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Which is probably good, because it's like a stack
and it's not nothing's related,nothing has to do.
It makes no sense.
It probably says somethingabout me, like I think you can
learn a lot about somebody byasking them what are you reading
?
Even if they say nothing,you've just learned something.
Yes, exactly, Not bad or goodjust something.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
I think your pile probably means you're a very
smart, talented person.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Thank you so much.
That's what it says.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message, but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
(44:55):
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
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