April 30, 2025 • 50 mins
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What happens when your first novel becomes a global sensation, and your next one takes nearly a decade?
In this episode, bestselling author Nicola Kraus (of The Nanny Diaries fame) gets delightfully honest about what it really takes to write, edit, and publish a book in today’s ever-shifting landscape. From the high highs to the humbling in-betweens, she shares what she’s learned about trusting your process (even when it’s slooooow), navigating a traditional publishing world that’s barely recognizable, and why writing in the present tense might just save your story.
Inside the episode:
- Why her latest novel took nearly a decade to write and release
- How editing is actually where the magic happens (even if it feels like a root canal)
- The sneaky power of tense, and why it matters more than you think
- What authors really need to know about publishing today (spoiler: it’s not just “write the book”)
- The simple truth about how readers find books they love
If you enjoy this episode, please follow or subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone you know who has a great story but isn't sure what to do next.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at Elizabeth Lyons.
Author.
Hi everybody, all right.
This week we are talking to thefabulous Nicola Krauss.
I was so excited about this onefor many reasons, the first
being that Nicola is theco-author, with her dear friend
Emma McLaughlin, of the NannyDiaries, which you may remember.
And now, when I firstremembered this, or was told
(01:28):
this, I thought oh yeah, thatwas back when I was in college
or high school or something.
I give myself too much creditsometimes for being a lot
younger than I actually am andin fact, the Nanny Diaries came
out when I was a new mom a youngmom, I should say of a
two-year-old and, I think, likealmost pretty much newborn twins
, and what I remember about theNanny Diaries is that I was
(01:51):
obsessed with it.
I was completely obsessed withthe cover.
I was obsessed.
I couldn't put it down.
I think I probably failed as aparent for a few hours because
it was so good and I justremember it.
It had such an effect on methat I remembered it.
All these years later,no-transcript tells me it took
(02:27):
them six months to write a book,as I am when they tell me it
took them 10 years, becauseeither is an option, either is
possible, and both books gotwritten.
So your process is your processis your process, and sometimes
we get delayed and that's okay,and sometimes we are able to
write quickly and then we editfor nine years.
So it's important to not makeassumptions about what a air
(02:50):
quote real writer or an airquote good writer, what their
process actually is.
I talked in this.
Well, we talked about a lot ofthings, including baby goats,
miniature donkeys, and Imentioned this great farm
Knuckle Bump Farms that I'mobsessed with on Instagram.
I'll put their handle down inthe episode notes and I couldn't
remember at the time the nameof the darling girl who's one of
(03:12):
the owners of this farm.
Her name is Taylor Blake and ifyou are familiar at all with
Emanuel Todd Lopez, which is heremu, which is like the claim to
fame of the farm, she had, orhas, two emus, ellen and
Emmanuel, who don't get alongwith one another, and Emmanuel
Todd Lopez just steals the showalmost quite literally because
(03:34):
he does not like it when Tayloris filming constantly.
It's one of the.
If you need joy in your day,just check out Knuckle Bump
Farms and also consider making adonation to their foundation,
because they're doing she andher fiance are just doing
absolutely great things forthese animals.
They're so much fun and, beyondthat, they provide such great
(03:55):
entertainment.
I feel like there's a book thereand if not, I need to find
another reason why Taylor couldcome on the show to talk about a
story.
Right, a man, maybe a manual,like.
I feel like there's achildren's book about Emanuel
Todd Lopez.
It's just a thought I had.
As usual, I have all ofNicola's information in the
episode notes.
Nicola is also a writing coachand I'm giving her that term.
(04:17):
She is a writer guide, if youwill, through her company, the
Finished Thought, and she workswith traditional and indie
authors alike to help them getthe words out on the page, get
everything written, get theirproposal finished and truly
understand the industry.
She really is someone who helpshold the author's hand, because
we all need that from time totime as they're going through
(04:37):
the writing, editing, publishingand marketing processes, and
she's got some great, greatadvice and perspectives on the
writing, editing and marketingprocesses, so let us get to all
of it.
So I open up Instagram, whichI'm not supposed to do first
thing in the morning, but I didanyway and the first thing I see
(04:59):
is you, and and.
So I didn't look at the date,but I thought I wonder if Nicola
recorded this this morning andshe's going to be wearing the
same thing.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Monday morning clean hair.
Let's just like get all thegood things done.
I'm so impressed with you.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I'm so impressed with you because Monday morning
usually I look like I live in abox somewhere and I also you
made me panic a little bit whenI saw the reel because you said,
well, a couple of things.
Number one you said AdrianBrody.
I thought you said Adam Brody.
Oh no, okay, because no.
I thought my heart can onlytake so much right.
(05:38):
And if we have to cancel AdamBrody.
I can't go on.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
No, we can't lose him .
Speaker 1 (05:45):
We cannot lose him, like if he hears this Adam, this
is a plea from Nicola andmyself Just stay on the right
side, stay lovely, lovely.
But now was that the SAG awards?
No, that was the Oscars lastnight.
Okay See, I'm so not like.
(06:06):
I just don't want to turn onthe television unless it's
nobody wants this on Netflix.
Cue Adam Brody.
That's the only thing that'skeeping me going.
That and reruns of what's theNew Girl.
Do you watch?
Did you ever watch?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
New Girl.
Oh, I love New Girl, yes, sofunny so great.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I have so many questions for you.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I've been listening to your podcast and there are so
many episodes that I've wantedto comment on.
I can talk about publishing, Ican talk about writing.
I can talk about hybrids.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
We can talk about all the things right.
So the first thing is all right.
So we are going to get to theBest that we Could Hope For,
which is a rather apt titleright now, I might add.
And I want to ask you I've gota million questions about that.
First thing I want to say iswhen I saw the Nanny Diaries
part?
So I read a lot of books, youread a lot of books.
We all are immersed in thisworld and I just I love books
(06:56):
and I'd read them even if Iweren't immersed in this world.
It's why I'm immersed in thisworld.
Sometimes I read a book,especially if it was, you know,
nanny Diaries came out in 03,right, 02.
02.
Okay, this is making more sense.
And I know I read it and I knowI liked I'm speaking of any
book.
I know I read it and I know Iliked it.
(07:17):
But I can't, I don't have like avisceral reaction to what it
was the Nanny Diaries.
I had a visceral reaction.
So, first of all, the cover, Imean.
But I thought, okay, this bookstuck with me.
What was I in college Like?
And that was giving myself alot of credit because I was not
in college.
What it was was, to just fastforward.
(07:38):
I was the mom of of atwo-year-old and newborn twins,
basically oh, wow.
And so enough said, and Idevoured that book.
When did you find time to read?
I don't know, I truly don'tknow, like I don't remember
reading it, but it made a markand I think what it was.
(08:02):
I was so much looking for anescape from this lovely, lovely
life that I was living withthese three little people that
to read about the inspired bystories of like what was going
on in some of the wealthiestportions of Manhattan was just
(08:23):
delightful.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Oh, this could be worse.
I could be getting underpaid tobe with these three people and
disrespected.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And I didn't know, by the way that that went on you
and Emma like 20 more books,Just 10,.
But thank you, yes, oh, it was10?
Okay, I really did think it was20, but I mean just 10.
That sounds terrible.
10?
Okay, I really did think it was20, but I mean just 10.
That sounds terrible.
So, and I've heard otherinterviews from with you, um,
about your relationship withEmma, which is so fun.
(08:53):
I mean we just tell that reallyfast because I love how that
all came together, it's a greatstory.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
We are so lucky to have each other.
The universe really wanted usto meet and connect.
No kidding, we took a classtogether at NYU called Gender
and Performance, which wastotally bananas.
I never got up the courage totalk.
I followed her to the elevatorevery Tuesday and Thursday.
I would watch the doors closeand promise myself next time I
would have more courage.
(09:20):
I graduated, I ran into her atthe Citibank ATM on the corner
of 86 and Lexington and welooked at each other and I said
what are you doing here?
She said I, nanny, and I liveup here.
I said I, nanny, and I live uphere.
Two days later, the family shewas living with sat her down,
said we're getting a divorce andwe need you out by tomorrow,
and she moved in with me.
We didn't start writingtogether until four years later.
(09:44):
In In the interim I introducedher to her now husband of almost
30 years and in that time wejust kept running into each
other over and over again.
And then finally, in 2000, I hadbeen acting.
It was miserable.
I decided that I was eithergoing to write or I was going to
teach yoga or I was going to goback to med school, and I
(10:05):
invited Emma to a reading of aplay that I'd done, and she sent
me an email the next day andsaid hey, I really wanted to
work on a book about nannying.
Do you want to do this with me?
That's a terrible idea.
It was the worst job ever.
No one would ever want to readabout that.
But I'm saying yes toeverything right now but I'm
saying yes to everything rightnow.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
So we were off to the races.
I was having a year of yesbefore.
It was cool, so okay this.
I now have a new question.
Lots of times when people arewriting books that are inspired
cause, there's a differencebetween inspired by and based on
right, like one is really morememoir and one is you can have
more fun with it.
How did you feel back thenabout writing all that?
(10:48):
And, oh my gosh, are thesefamilies going to see themselves
in this?
Am I going to go to jail?
Were you just too for lack of abetter word naive?
And I don't mean that in anegative way, it's just.
How did you we?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
were really clear about the satirical mandate.
We were already two peopletelling one story, so this is
not a real family.
In fact, we made Greer a littleboy because of pronouns.
If you'd had three females inone room it would have been a
nightmare.
So we really approached this asnovelists.
We were incredibly aware of theneeds of the story, Even though
(11:21):
we thought only three peoplewere going to read it.
We took it incredibly seriously.
My needs of the story, Eventhough we thought only three
people were going to read it.
We took it incredibly seriously.
My mother was a librarian.
My dad is a bookseller.
Emma's parents were in academia.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Books were everything to us.
Oh my gosh, okay, that's newinformation.
How?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
fun.
So we took this very seriously.
We read that book over hundredsof times.
We would change one sentenceand go back to the beginning and
read it through.
So there's this point in anysort of work that's inspired by
real events where I say topeople there is a moment you
have to let this character stopbeing you and become yours.
(12:01):
They have to be allowed to be alittle bit braver, to think
outside the box and maybe dothings you wouldn't have done.
The converse of that is thatwhen people say to me but this
really happened, I say itdoesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
That doesn't necessarily mean it's good for
the story, which is is this partof what you do?
You still do the finishedthought.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yes, every day.
So I'm working with aspiringauthors or seasoned authors.
I have a lot of clients who arepublished authors multiple
times over, but because of theconsolidation in publishing
which I know you talk about,editors do not have the
bandwidth or the time to payattention to each of their
authors the way they used to, soa lot of times they will hire
me independently so that I cangive them the kind of one-on-one
(12:47):
personal touch that theyotherwise would have had within
the system.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Which is super important because, again, I
think it comes down toexpectations, right, and there's
this expectation that you'regoing to have this red carpet
rolled out and everyone's atyour beck and call.
It's not and and and in theirdefense.
I don't think necessarily thatthat they're putting that on the
table from the start and sayingyou're going to have this again
(13:14):
.
It's an expectation.
But what a great gift to beable to say this is.
You're kind of like they're nottheir therapist, but well, you
probably feel like that.
I really am their therapist.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And I have clients who still say when are they
going to take me to lunch?
Yes, I'll take you to lunch,but they're not going to take
you to lunch.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I'm so sorry, right those lunches were too long.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I had those lunches at the tail end of what that was
.
But has it changed?
Go ahead, go ahead.
No, I was just going to saythat there is an expectation,
because everything needs to beedited.
I don't know if you've talkedabout the great documentary
between Robert Caro and RobertGottlieb, but if people haven't
watched it, they absolutelyshould.
(13:56):
What's that on?
You can rent it on any platformthat you want.
Okay, and it's about theincredible relationship between
one of the best non-fictionauthors of the 20th century.
But even understanding that abook like the power broker would
have been 10 times as long andwould have gone from a
masterpiece to an unwieldy hotmess without Gottlieb.
(14:18):
And they sat elbow to elbowwith a pencil and they just
worked over every singlesentence, and that is.
That is the pinnacle of whatpeople still think of with an
editor.
But unfortunately, a lot oftimes that just doesn't happen
anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
And you know what's interesting is that do you ever
work with indie authors?
Oh, absolutely Okay.
So what I find interesting isthat it's what people want.
This is my experience.
It's what people want when theygo with a traditional house.
They think, or they want theireditor to sit with them and go
line by line.
Now, when they're indie,especially when they're a
(14:54):
first-time author, we don't lookat the editing process as an
integral part.
I call it part two as anintegral part.
I call it part two of itbecause it's not like you write
90% and then you just have thislittle 10% or 95, five, and then
it's just done and out the doorand ready to go.
You know it's.
(15:14):
Do you find that when you'retalking to people work,
especially who are first timeauthors, that there's just kind
of a in their defense?
They don't know, but there's alack of understanding of what
really?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
What writing is the process, part of the creative
process.
I will have clients say to mewith a straight face I don't
like editing.
Then you really should dosomething else.
It's like I really want to bean ice skater but I hate the
cold.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Maybe you should make I want to be barefoot at all
times.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Editing is so much of the process.
Truly, I think of the firstdraft as just making the clay or
making the paint.
You're just creating thematerial that you're then going
to storytell with.
You're not done by any means.
Maybe for Stephen King you'redone, but for the rest of us
we're not done.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I don't even think.
Then I have this author groupand we meet every couple of
weeks and I use the clay analogy.
Last week I said because for me, I love the editing.
In fact I didn't use clay, Iwas going to use clay and then I
used wax because I was ajewelry designer and I would
carve out of wax, and so when Iwas just sitting with a block of
wax, it was well, it was awful,it was just torture.
(16:23):
But the more defined I got thatwax into the design that I
wanted to get it, I becameobsessed and it was hard
ultimately to let it go.
How do you know with your ownbooks and how do you guide
people on when is it ready,whether it's to go to your back,
to your editor or go to print?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Personally, I know when something is close to done
and this happens every singletime I will start changing
things and then get two pageslater and realize I've either
contradicted myself or I haveset something up that was
already done.
I'm making it worse, and when Istart making it worse, I step
away.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, and how do you know when it's done?
Done, in other words, let'sprint it.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I think, well, there's a combination of
deadline and felt sense.
Sure, you reach a point whereyou think I can't read this one
more time.
I think it's done.
I think someone needs to takethis away from me now Take it
away.
And then you still think aboutit.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Oh, my, like I.
Do you go back and read yourown books once they've been
published?
You don't?
No, should I?
Oh, no, well, there's no shouldin my world, I mean, unless
it's like we go to the park onTuesdays.
There should not be anapostrophe there, right Like,
with a few exceptions, there'sno should.
But I think I'm a masochist andso I will go back and read mine
(17:46):
and then think, oh, I shouldhave said that a different way.
Why did I so?
I often ask do authors readtheir own work?
Do you read your reviews?
Yeah, the reviews are a wholeseparate conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
But I have found a couple of times because I needed
to read something for a charityevent and to go back and reread
the prologue of the NannyDiaries, even all these years
later, having raised a child.
No, I stand by every word ofthat.
I take back none of it.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And that was done.
No edits right, you and Emma.
No edits, yes.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
That is how it?
Came out.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Now I want to go back and reread it 20 years later,
myself knowing now that it wasfreakish.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
It was truly freakish .
Speaker 1 (18:34):
I mean, it's crazy cool, but not common.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
No, incredibly uncommon.
I really do think that it wasjust whatever force you believe
in was letting us know that wecould do this and we had to keep
going.
Yeah, it never was that easyagain.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I mean, come on, that would just be right.
So, for the best that we couldhope, for how many years has it
been since the last?
Well, since the last book youreleased, since?
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I've already gotten that number wrong.
Yeah, emma and I released our10th book together.
I want to say nine years ago.
Okay, and that was exactly whenI started working on the Best
we Could Hope For nine years ago.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Nine years.
I love that more than I can say, because I'm always looking for
the people.
It took 10 years because it can.
It doesn't have to.
Where did the?
This is different.
This is a much differentstoryline than the Nanny Diaries
was.
Where did this come from?
(19:33):
I?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
had this idea years ago.
Also, I had been writing moresort of lyrical work on my own
before Emma and I startedwriting together and I really
let that go in the service ofour shared voice, our shared
vision, our shared friendship.
But by the time I was turning40, I was feeling this hunger
(19:54):
and this craving to do somethingdifferent.
And Emma God bless her was sucha huge fan of the idea of this
and she really wanted to stepaway.
To let me do this.
But because we had alwaysplotted very explicitly together
in order not to have one of usdrive the story off the rails, I
(20:14):
gave myself permission withthis novel to pants it, and that
took a lot longer.
Every day I would sit down.
I had the general shape of thestory, but I would be surprised
by turns in the narrative asmuch as any reader is now Like,
oh, that character's coming back.
Didn't know that was going tohappen today.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
It's the story of my life.
But I don't think.
I think you stay focused and Ican't Like.
I'm like, oh my God, now hisname's Mateo.
I need 10 days to process thatnews.
So how do you stay on?
Are you an everyday writer?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yes, when I'm creating a first draft, I give
myself the mission of just 500words a day, five days a week.
In seven months, you will havea first draft.
It's not an incredibly heavylift because simultaneously I
was working with all of myclients, so I didn't just stop
down and crank the first draftout in three months.
Also, I had periods where thecharacters hung up on me and so
(21:14):
I just had to wait for them tocall me back and I decided I was
just going to be patient withthat because I wasn't under
deadline and that was the giftthat I was giving myself.
And then the pandemic happened.
So initially, the book wassupposed to go out for
submission on March 3, 2020.
And my agent said let's justgive it a couple of weeks and
just see where things land.
Three years later it finallywent out again, but it was good
(21:37):
All the time that I had allowedthe book to flourish to where it
was supposed to be, and it tookme a long time to see that
clearly.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Well, you say your characters hung up on you.
I think mine have just left.
I don't.
I think they've left thecountry.
I mean, I don't necessarilyblame them, but I don't know
where they are, like I, rightnow.
That's my, that's my excuse isno, I know that, hello, hello.
I know that, hello, hello.
(22:06):
So do you get?
I'm fascinated by the pantsingprocess because I am that and
I'm kind of a plotter and Idon't know.
I think I'm a what do they callit?
A planter, like?
when you're a planter whenyou're kind of in between, do
you?
You can obviously stay on track, though, with it.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I had a sense, I knew where the story was ultimately
going.
You did so.
There was something driving meforward.
Okay, and after I wrote thefirst incredibly unwieldy
version primarily unwieldybecause I thought initially I
wanted to tell itchronologically- out of order.
(22:40):
And I was.
The story spans from 1943 toaround 2014 and I opened the
novel in 1974.
I had a really clear vision ofthis scene between this mother
and daughter and by startingthere I was having to tell 30
years in flashbacks and thenmoving forward, it was creating
(23:03):
a tonal disconnect.
It just was making itunnecessarily messy and I didn't
recognize that.
That's where I was hangingmyself up until I listened to
Harvey Fierstein's memoir.
For those of you who don't know,he wrote Torch Song Trilogy.
He wrote the book for KinkyBoots on Broadway.
He is the brother in MrsDoubtfire.
(23:26):
He's the best.
I'm completely obsessed withhim and his memoir was a
phenomenal masterclass on storystructure.
And at one point because he'stalking about writing musicals
which take years and you can getit on its feet in one city and
completely reorder the show andget something totally different
and I asked myself is there agiven circumstance that I'm too
(23:48):
attached to where I'm getting myown way?
And as soon as I asked thequestion, I thought, oh, I need
to start at the beginning, not74.
I need to start in 43 and thenjust tell the whole story.
And so over the course of onesummer, I rewrote the entire
novel from the beginning in thepresent tense, and it changed
everything.
New scenes came up, characterssuddenly behaved very
(24:10):
differently when I was with themin the present moment, as
opposed to seeing them from adistance, and it just sparkled
and it was done.
Thank you, harvey.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah well, and I'm gonna link that book below and
the documentary and all was done.
Thank you, harvey.
Yeah, well, and I'm going tolink that book below and the
documentary and all of that, andthen I'm going to spend my day
doing it and not working on myown novel.
You said you ended up making itin the present tense.
When you are trying to decidefor yourself or you're helping
one of your clients decide airquote should it be present tense
(24:40):
or first person, past tense orthird person?
Past tense or third person,past tense or first person,
omniscient or whatever that, allthese different things, what's
your?
Do you have any kind ofguidance on how you help someone
figure out what they want to do, because all of them can work,
do you?
Do you agree with that?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And I had actually hung myself up because somewhere
along the line I had gotten thevery unhelpful advice that
serious books were never in thepresent tense, that fiction, all
caps had to be in the pasttense.
And then I read Wolf Hall andthe whole trilogy is in the
present tense, and that's whatmakes it brilliant, the
immediacy of being inside ofHenry VIII's court and Thomas
(25:22):
Cromwell's mind.
And so I was like, well, I justgot some really bad advice and
I'm going to throw that out.
I think the difference betweenbeing in the present tense and
being in the past tense is thatthere's sort of an absolutism to
anything you tell in the pasttense.
It was, and you've already hadtime to process it and it
(25:45):
becomes immutable, it becomesfact.
And because my novel is so muchabout how memories are
unreliable, I wanted to go backand tell the story in the
present tense because peoplewere making decisions in real
time, making mistakes in realtime, and I didn't want you to
meet the consequences of thosemistakes yet Okay that.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I've never heard that expressed that way, and I I
love that because it's just anew way to look at how.
How movable do you want the,the facts of of it all to be, do
you think too?
I'm just realizing this now formyself.
Readers just have a preference.
(26:29):
I like reading books that arein the first person, in the
present tense, but right now I'mobsessed with.
Have you read Romantic Comedyby Curtis Sittenfeld?
No, I haven't yet, but it's onmy nightstand.
Okay, you're probably not goingto be able to put it down.
She's so good I feel like weneed to talk about it again
(26:50):
after you're finished.
So please let us do that, ifyou can stand me for another.
I didn't realize until lastnight at midnight, which is well
past my bedtime, that it's inthe past tense, like, and it
works.
But it's.
It works because, well, she'sbrilliant.
I mean, she just brings you in.
(27:11):
So I think it can.
It can be you can bring someonein in either way you know
either approach.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Now I'm trying to remember.
Did you read God of the Woodsthis summer?
Was that in the past tense orthe present?
It has that sense of immediacy,but I think it might have been
written in the past tense.
I think that takes some goodskill.
You have to follow your gut.
Yeah, and writers hate it whenI say that to them because they
want there to be an absoluteanswer.
(27:37):
Right, but so much of thecreative process is subjective
and no two people get a bookfinished the same way, Even
people who you absolutelyrespect and adore.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
There's no one who can do it and who have written
30 books I mean people who havewritten dozens of books will
often have a different process,subtly.
Subtly, because their processevolves.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
You can put two Pulitzer Prize winners in the
same room and they will do itcompletely differently.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Well, and it's much like editing.
So I often will say you know,because I edit as well, and I'll
say look, you could put 10 ofthe best editors in the world.
You could give them all thesame manuscript.
They would all have differentsuggestions.
None of them is right and noneof them is wrong.
Yeah, right, and it's maddening, but it's true.
(28:24):
It is maddening because we wantan answer.
We want someone to say this isthe way to say this, in order
for the masses to love it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And that is an interesting criteria, because I
often say to people look, youcan do what you want to do.
Ultimately, you have to pleaseyourself.
However, if you're hiring mebecause you want an agent, you
want to be published, you wantto meet the mandate of the
marketplace, well then, I'lltell you how to do that, and
that means you are going to haveto do this handful of things.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
That you maybe don't really want to do, yeah, yeah,
so what in the last nine years,do you see, has really changed
or shifted in publishing thatyou either knew was happening
because you were following it,or kind of surprised you.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I think the resurgence of the print book has
been a delightful surprise.
You know that Kindle dominancewas a blip.
Readers love reading books,even my daughter.
I offered to get her a Kindlesubscription because she just
tears through porn, basically,and she said no, mom, it's my
paper time, it's the time that Iam away from the digital media.
(29:33):
I was like fine, I'll keeppaying for the books.
That was a great answer, sothat's been wonderful.
I think the consolidationscontinue apace.
I think that what that means isthat agents are doing more
editing than they ever didbefore, but that's time
consuming, so I think they'retaking on fewer clients than
they ever did before, andpublishing houses are having a
(29:56):
really hard time figuring outhow to break out.
First-time authors right now,and I think the onus has also
shifted so much more ontoauthors to promote your book.
On one hand, it's great becauseit gives you something to do.
You're not just sitting theretwiddling your thumbs waiting
for a magazine to cover you.
But for authors who are alittle bit shy, it can feel
(30:17):
torturous.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
A thousand, even though there's no such thing as
a thousand percent.
A thousand percent because somany creative people, whether
they're writers or painters ormusicians, like they.
They're introverted or theythey identify as introverted.
Being in front of people andselling their own thing and
(30:41):
trying to convince other peoplewhy they should invest in
something.
That is torturous is a greatword.
It's so mean, and yet it's justwhat it is.
And so I often say to peopleyou don't have to do anything.
You can put the book out andyou can hope and pray that word
(31:01):
of mouth will do something, butif it doesn't, don't come back
and say it's not.
No one's buying it.
There are 42 million titles onAmazon.
It's probably more than thatnow.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yes, and you'll be mad at yourself if you didn't
try.
And I also say to people, thereare so many ways of coming at
this.
You find the thing that you dolove talking about or love
posting about Catherine Newmanhas her fabulous cats, you know.
Find the thing that fills youwith joy and you will
communicate that joy to otherpeople.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
What did you call them?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Publicity snafus, and oh yes, pr nightmares, unforced
, errors.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
But it's.
I tell people and I'm going totell people, like go watch your
Instagram, because, people, youcan promote yourself without
promoting yourself.
Oh, absolutely, because if Ihad seen first of all, I would
have been like, oh my God, shesaid to Adam Brody, but then it
wasn't Adam Brody.
I'm really I'm still recoveringfrom that.
I had a really scary momentthere.
(32:01):
You see the person, you fall inlove with the person and then
you find out, oh, they'vewritten a book.
I'm going to go check it out.
That's just sort of how ourbrain works.
It's not.
It doesn't have to be.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth.
I wrote this book.
Go buy it.
Have a great day.
What's your favorite approachto public?
What are you enjoying doing forthe new book?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Well, I mean loving talking to people.
As someone who spends way toomuch time every day by myself at
my desk, especially talking toother people who are equally
obsessed with books, it's really, really fun.
I'm writing a lot of essays,which is really challenging.
Halfway through each one I gowhy would anyone care?
And then I have to slap myselfin the face and just keep going
(32:44):
and not talk myself out of itand then looking forward to
getting the book in people'shands.
After nine years of being alonewith this story, it's been
wonderful to see the earlyreviews and see that people are
deeply moved by this story, soI'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I think that's always helpful in feeding one's
momentum and author's momentumis starting to get that feedback
that people are moved by it inways that you didn't anticipate.
Has that happened at all, wheresomeone said this particular
scene or the mention of thisthing really struck me and you
think I didn't intend that, thisthing really struck me and you
(33:22):
think I didn't intend thatAbsolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I had one woman who was given the book through a
mutual friend who'd gotten areview copy so not a reviewer.
But she got my phone number andcalled me, hysterically sobbing
, and she said I read the end ofthe book and I looked at the
clock and realized it was theanniversary of my mother's death
and I felt like you sent thisbook to me to heal that
relationship.
What do you say to that?
I don't.
(33:47):
It was such a gift.
I was like all right, I'm done.
I don't need anyone else toread it Right, right, thank you.
That was the mission I wrote itjust for you.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I'm going to go get a miniature Highland cow and call
it a day.
That's my new obsession.
If you post about a miniatureHighland cow on Instagram and
you're an author, I'll buyeverything you've ever written.
So there's an idea.
Good to know.
Yes, Well, if you get one, I'mjust going to show up.
It's like listen, we've had aconversation.
Here I am.
(34:13):
I'm here to pet the cow.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
I'm now obsessed with the mini goats the people have,
like the hand-sized goats.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
The, the people of like the hand-sized goats, the
way they hop around.
They're so cute.
I I feel like they're just sojoyful.
I know they seem very happy, tobe small.
They prant.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Have you seen the, the baby donkeys yes I mean I
know this is what the internetwas made for it.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
How do they come out so furry?
Sometimes the owners of themother donkey, whatever that's
called will be like this babydonkey was just born two hours
ago and I think, like you'vealready fluffed it up it's so
fluffy like did you.
Is there a did you?
I don't know what.
Is there a comb, like somethingwent?
Speaker 2 (34:55):
on there you took a little blow dryer to the donkey
apparatus.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I feel like they've been glammed.
They have a glam squad.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I'm totally your friend, there's a job.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
If you haven't found this yet, I'm probably going to
say it wrong.
But Knuckle Bump Farms.
No, okay, I'm going to send you, I'm going to Instagram it to
you and I'll put it under below.
I'm so disappointed right nowthat I can't remember this
girl's name.
I'll put it in the introbecause she's the star of the
(35:28):
whole thing and I.
She's this farmer and sheraises this whole gaggle of
animals and she kind of becamefamous because she has this emu
named Emmanuel Todd Lopez.
Yes, yes to all of that, yes toall of it.
And Emmanuel won't let her filmanything.
(35:50):
So when she's filming, all of asudden you'll see the emu's
head come up and then it willjust people listening can't see
this, but he'll peck the cameraand she's like Emmanuel, stop it
, emmanuel.
And it's just life-giving.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Oh, that's wonderful.
I'm going to go check that outtoday.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
I need to let you know that now you know about
that and you can join me.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
No, I feel better.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Thank you, I'm glad Because otherwise I just told
everyone's like move on Um.
What with indie authors?
How?
Do you, how are you guidingthem differently, like in terms
of what are you seeing in termsof pros, cons, opportunities,
challenges?
Speaker 2 (36:33):
We, emma and I, did our last book through an indie
publisher.
Okay, and it was phenomenal.
We had already written the bookand our conventional publisher
gave it back to us Keep yourmoney, keep the book.
We just want to do somethingelse, so we gave them a
(36:54):
different story.
It had already been paid forthe book and we had it, but we
really wanted to share it withpeople and it was called so
Close and people are stillbuying it and love it.
It was a great experience.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
So was it like a, was it a self self, it was a
bookspark, oh bookspark.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Okay yeah, and it was fantastic.
So essentially, we bought awonderful PR package.
We got some of the bestpromotion we've ever gotten.
The book was in all thebookstores, it was available
online Nobody could tell thedifference and it was a level of
attention and thoughtfulness interms of getting the book in
(37:38):
the hands of people who actuallywanted it that we had never
experienced in conventionalpublishing.
So I'm a big fan.
They're here, I believe,scottsdale.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
The way that conventional publishing operates
needs to be disrupted.
Thank you.
They don't know how to market.
It is mind-blowing for myclients who are CEOs when they
move through the process oftrying to sell their book and
realize that there is no realplan for letting people know
that their book is coming out.
They are stunned, no matter howmuch I warn them.
(38:12):
So they expect to take all thismoney on the back end to offset
their investment.
But other than physicallymaking the book and doing the
distribution which any hybridcan do, what are they doing for
you, right?
So I do think that people aregoing to be making the shift.
I won't say en masse, but Ithink that's going to be a far
(38:33):
bigger segment of publishingover the next decade.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Well, and I think it's very interesting because
and I'm admittedly, I've neverbeen traditionally published.
So all of my anecdotal evidencecomes from my many friends who
are, and people I talk to hereon the podcast who have been or
are, and I have several friendswho are traditionally published
and wouldn't have it any otherway.
And then, on the flip side, Iwork with individuals who come
(38:59):
to me and they say I really wantto pursue a traditional route
and I always ask why?
Because I think why you'regoing around as important?
And they'll say, well, becausethey'll sell the book for me.
And that's when we have to havean honest conversation and
sometimes they believe me andsometimes they don't and they
think, well, you've never doneit, I'm going to be the
exception, or whatever the caseis.
And if they get the deal, lotsof times they come back and say
(39:22):
you were right, which I love,love, love to hear, and because
I never hear it from my children.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So I will take it wherever I can get it, totally.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, and then other times you know, they know what
to expect.
Like I have a good friend,neely Alexander, who is a
phenomenal fiction writer withHarper Collins, actually works
with book sparks, has workedwith book sparks in the past on
her publicity.
So one of the things that youknow she's told me and said
publicly I'm not is that lots oftimes traditionally published
(39:51):
authors will take their advanceand they will then give a large
portion, if not all of it, topublicity and also to someone
like yourself who's helping themfinish the book or guide them
through the publishing process,so that they have someone their
911 person.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
When I always ask people why do you want to write
a book?
And if they say anything aboutmaking money or hitting
bestseller or yeah, you are inthe wrong arena because you are
going to take that advance andinvest it back into your
publicity.
Oh my gosh, sorry, the doorbelljust rang and my dog went
ballistic.
Can you hold on one second?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
I didn't even hear it .
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, I prayed that UPS wasn't going to show up
while I was talking to you.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, that's the beauty of this not being live.
Yeah, thank you, but if it were, I would just vamp.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
If it was live, I was going to drop him off at the.
I was about to say the dogshelter, not the dog shelter,
the dog daycare around thecorner.
I love him.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
The shelter, To be clear everyone.
But if you went there, theremight be an emu that you could
name Totally, or just a raccoonin a vest, which is my favorite
thing All of it Like.
This is what it's come to.
Okay, last I got, I could talkto you for at truly, we're going
to do this.
You don't real, you may notlike agree, but it's going to
(41:09):
happen.
So the last question I alwaysask people is what are you
reading now, or what have youread recently that you just
really loved?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Ooh, look at that cover.
Isn't it a beautiful cover.
It's called the Safe Keep byYael van der Woeden.
She is a Dutch author.
It is in translation.
My neighbor bought the booklast week, stayed up all night
reading it in one sitting.
Gave it to my other neighborwe're all in a book club
together.
She read it in one day.
(41:38):
I started reading it in onesitting.
Gave it to my other neighborwe're all in a book club
together she read it in one day.
I started reading it yesterday.
If I hadn't had to stop for myhusband's birthday, I would have
stayed up all night finishingit.
It's compulsive.
It's set in Holland in 1961,over the course of a couple of
weeks, in the countryside.
Nothing about this seems likeit is the makings of a thriller.
(42:00):
It's not a thriller, it's justincredibly compulsive and
propulsive and you just don'twant to stop reading.
You're dying to find out whathappens.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I find that really interesting, because the way you
described it and you said likethis doesn't you don't hear this
and go.
Oh my God, I have to have thatRight and yet it and so it
creates such a kind of a problemfor authors, until there's
someone like you and yourneighbors who are telling people
yes, cause, now I'm ordering it.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
This is what, when people ask me, how can I help
authors?
If you loved a book, tellpeople.
You don't have to do it onsocial media.
You can just tell your friends,but that is how the word gets
spread.
It's so important.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Don't keep the love to yourself.
Say that again.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Don't keep the love to yourself.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Don't keep the love.
It's just, I mean, with all thelittle libraries.
I was on a walk the other dayand one of my neighbors has one
of those free little librariesin front of her house and I I
found the um, sophie Cousins, Ithink, is her name, and she's
kind of a rom-com, you know,like an Emily Henry vibe, and I
don't like comparing peoplecause that's not fair, but
(43:10):
that's the general gist.
I had never heard of her andthen I messaged.
I didn't message her but Itagged her on Instagram and she
liked it.
And I thought this is how ithappens, you know because it's
just you, just people likesomething and they're willing to
pass it on.
And sometimes that's hardbecause I like to keep them all
(43:31):
around me.
It's like a warm blanket, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Also if someone gives me a book and I love the book.
I will then go and buy a copyto give to someone else, or I
will buy the audio, or I willmake a purchase to help support
the author, because those thingsare incredibly important in
terms of giving authors theopportunity to be published
again.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
That, no matter how they publish the first time, but
certainly in a traditionalworld, because those numbers are
everything, it is a business.
Yes, Right, and those numbersare I mean the publishing houses
I think it is safe to say maketheir money off their top one,
the top 1%, right?
(44:12):
Yes, and that goes back to whatyou said at the beginning about
getting these debut authors tobreak out, is it's a real, it's
important to them and it's areal challenge.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Also, it really annoys me when people who write
literary fiction are then snarkyabout their commercial siblings
in the other divisions.
Like those people areunderwriting you being published
Right.
You should say a big thank youto them.
We need Lee Childs and StephenKing and David Baldacci and all
of those people because they'rekeeping the lights on Sing it.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
I mean really.
And so I think it's just it'sperspective and it's hearing
that and recognizing.
You know, when you hear therecan be a, when they come out
with the reports every quarterof how well the or every year of
how well the publishing housesare doing, and they say, oh,
they're down 25%, it's notbecause people aren't reading
books, it's because Lee Childsdidn't publish a book in that
(45:07):
particular year or quarter ormonth or whatever it was.
It has nothing.
We can't misconstrue theoverall trends, correct.
Well, I cannot wait.
I don't have my hands yet onthe best, don't worry, it's
coming.
Oh, good Coming.
I either Diana has sent it orI'm ordering it or both, because
(45:29):
I have a feeling the fact thatit starts the one character was
born in 1972.
Right, yes.
One character, yes, yes,because I was born in 1972,
right, yes.
One character, yes, yes,because I was born in 1972.
I mean not to, not to, but Ijust feel like that was a sign.
So I'm going to send a copy tomy mother because she birthed me
in 1972.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
So read it before you send it to her.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Oh really, yeah, Well , no, wait, wait, we can't, why.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
It looks at baby boomers as being possibly the
worst parents.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh, I'm totally sending it to her, then, oh,
this is great, this is going tobe like a psychological study,
like how she reacts to it.
It's going to give us a goodconversation, I feel.
Oh excellent.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, I feel great about it.
Oh, I knew people like thisRight.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Is there Tupperware?
Oh, yes, of course.
Yes, oh, this is God.
I'm so excited and I'd lovejust first of all the absolute
best of luck with it, thank, youfor doing the Danny.
Diaries and keeping me so happyduring that time when I was
just very happy but drowning inbottles.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Drowning, drowning, yes, no, laughter is everything.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Laughter is everything I'm going to send.
On that note, I will send youthe Instagram, Emmanuel Todd
Lopez, and thank you.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Oh my gosh this was so great.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
(47:18):
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at Elizabeth Lyons.
Author.
Hi everybody, all right.
This week we are talking to thefabulous Nicola Krauss.
I was so excited about this onefor many reasons, the first
being that Nicola is theco-author, with her dear friend
Emma McLaughlin, of the NannyDiaries, which you may remember.
And now, when I firstremembered this, or was told
(01:28):
this, I thought oh yeah, thatwas back when I was in college
or high school or something.
I give myself too much creditsometimes for being a lot
younger than I actually am andin fact, the Nanny Diaries came
out when I was a new mom a youngmom, I should say of a
two-year-old and, I think, likealmost pretty much newborn twins
, and what I remember about theNanny Diaries is that I was
(01:51):
obsessed with it.
I was completely obsessed withthe cover.
I was obsessed.
I couldn't put it down.
I think I probably failed as aparent for a few hours because
it was so good and I justremember it.
It had such an effect on methat I remembered it.
All these years later,no-transcript tells me it took
(02:27):
them six months to write a book,as I am when they tell me it
took them 10 years, becauseeither is an option, either is
possible, and both books gotwritten.
So your process is your processis your process, and sometimes
we get delayed and that's okay,and sometimes we are able to
write quickly and then we editfor nine years.
So it's important to not makeassumptions about what a air
(02:50):
quote real writer or an airquote good writer, what their
process actually is.
I talked in this.
Well, we talked about a lot ofthings, including baby goats,
miniature donkeys, and Imentioned this great farm
Knuckle Bump Farms that I'mobsessed with on Instagram.
I'll put their handle down inthe episode notes and I couldn't
remember at the time the nameof the darling girl who's one of
(03:12):
the owners of this farm.
Her name is Taylor Blake and ifyou are familiar at all with
Emanuel Todd Lopez, which is heremu, which is like the claim to
fame of the farm, she had, orhas, two emus, ellen and
Emmanuel, who don't get alongwith one another, and Emmanuel
Todd Lopez just steals the showalmost quite literally because
(03:34):
he does not like it when Tayloris filming constantly.
It's one of the.
If you need joy in your day,just check out Knuckle Bump
Farms and also consider making adonation to their foundation,
because they're doing she andher fiance are just doing
absolutely great things forthese animals.
They're so much fun and, beyondthat, they provide such great
(03:55):
entertainment.
I feel like there's a book thereand if not, I need to find
another reason why Taylor couldcome on the show to talk about a
story.
Right, a man, maybe a manual,like.
I feel like there's achildren's book about Emanuel
Todd Lopez.
It's just a thought I had.
As usual, I have all ofNicola's information in the
episode notes.
Nicola is also a writing coachand I'm giving her that term.
(04:17):
She is a writer guide, if youwill, through her company, the
Finished Thought, and she workswith traditional and indie
authors alike to help them getthe words out on the page, get
everything written, get theirproposal finished and truly
understand the industry.
She really is someone who helpshold the author's hand, because
we all need that from time totime as they're going through
(04:37):
the writing, editing, publishingand marketing processes, and
she's got some great, greatadvice and perspectives on the
writing, editing and marketingprocesses, so let us get to all
of it.
So I open up Instagram, whichI'm not supposed to do first
thing in the morning, but I didanyway and the first thing I see
(04:59):
is you, and and.
So I didn't look at the date,but I thought I wonder if Nicola
recorded this this morning andshe's going to be wearing the
same thing.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Monday morning clean hair.
Let's just like get all thegood things done.
I'm so impressed with you.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
I'm so impressed with you because Monday morning
usually I look like I live in abox somewhere and I also you
made me panic a little bit whenI saw the reel because you said,
well, a couple of things.
Number one you said AdrianBrody.
I thought you said Adam Brody.
Oh no, okay, because no.
I thought my heart can onlytake so much right.
(05:38):
And if we have to cancel AdamBrody.
I can't go on.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
No, we can't lose him .
Speaker 1 (05:45):
We cannot lose him, like if he hears this Adam, this
is a plea from Nicola andmyself Just stay on the right
side, stay lovely, lovely.
But now was that the SAG awards?
No, that was the Oscars lastnight.
Okay See, I'm so not like.
(06:06):
I just don't want to turn onthe television unless it's
nobody wants this on Netflix.
Cue Adam Brody.
That's the only thing that'skeeping me going.
That and reruns of what's theNew Girl.
Do you watch?
Did you ever watch?
Speaker 2 (06:19):
New Girl.
Oh, I love New Girl, yes, sofunny so great.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
I have so many questions for you.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
I've been listening to your podcast and there are so
many episodes that I've wantedto comment on.
I can talk about publishing, Ican talk about writing.
I can talk about hybrids.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
We can talk about all the things right.
So the first thing is all right.
So we are going to get to theBest that we Could Hope For,
which is a rather apt titleright now, I might add.
And I want to ask you I've gota million questions about that.
First thing I want to say iswhen I saw the Nanny Diaries
part?
So I read a lot of books, youread a lot of books.
We all are immersed in thisworld and I just I love books
(06:56):
and I'd read them even if Iweren't immersed in this world.
It's why I'm immersed in thisworld.
Sometimes I read a book,especially if it was, you know,
nanny Diaries came out in 03,right, 02.
02.
Okay, this is making more sense.
And I know I read it and I knowI liked I'm speaking of any
book.
I know I read it and I know Iliked it.
(07:17):
But I can't, I don't have like avisceral reaction to what it
was the Nanny Diaries.
I had a visceral reaction.
So, first of all, the cover, Imean.
But I thought, okay, this bookstuck with me.
What was I in college Like?
And that was giving myself alot of credit because I was not
in college.
What it was was, to just fastforward.
(07:38):
I was the mom of of atwo-year-old and newborn twins,
basically oh, wow.
And so enough said, and Idevoured that book.
When did you find time to read?
I don't know, I truly don'tknow, like I don't remember
reading it, but it made a markand I think what it was.
(08:02):
I was so much looking for anescape from this lovely, lovely
life that I was living withthese three little people that
to read about the inspired bystories of like what was going
on in some of the wealthiestportions of Manhattan was just
(08:23):
delightful.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Oh, this could be worse.
I could be getting underpaid tobe with these three people and
disrespected.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
And I didn't know, by the way that that went on you
and Emma like 20 more books,Just 10,.
But thank you, yes, oh, it was10?
Okay, I really did think it was20, but I mean just 10.
That sounds terrible.
10?
Okay, I really did think it was20, but I mean just 10.
That sounds terrible.
So, and I've heard otherinterviews from with you, um,
about your relationship withEmma, which is so fun.
(08:53):
I mean we just tell that reallyfast because I love how that
all came together, it's a greatstory.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
We are so lucky to have each other.
The universe really wanted usto meet and connect.
No kidding, we took a classtogether at NYU called Gender
and Performance, which wastotally bananas.
I never got up the courage totalk.
I followed her to the elevatorevery Tuesday and Thursday.
I would watch the doors closeand promise myself next time I
would have more courage.
(09:20):
I graduated, I ran into her atthe Citibank ATM on the corner
of 86 and Lexington and welooked at each other and I said
what are you doing here?
She said I, nanny, and I liveup here.
I said I, nanny, and I live uphere.
Two days later, the family shewas living with sat her down,
said we're getting a divorce andwe need you out by tomorrow,
and she moved in with me.
We didn't start writingtogether until four years later.
(09:44):
In In the interim I introducedher to her now husband of almost
30 years and in that time wejust kept running into each
other over and over again.
And then finally, in 2000, I hadbeen acting.
It was miserable.
I decided that I was eithergoing to write or I was going to
teach yoga or I was going to goback to med school, and I
(10:05):
invited Emma to a reading of aplay that I'd done, and she sent
me an email the next day andsaid hey, I really wanted to
work on a book about nannying.
Do you want to do this with me?
That's a terrible idea.
It was the worst job ever.
No one would ever want to readabout that.
But I'm saying yes toeverything right now but I'm
saying yes to everything rightnow.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
So we were off to the races.
I was having a year of yesbefore.
It was cool, so okay this.
I now have a new question.
Lots of times when people arewriting books that are inspired
cause, there's a differencebetween inspired by and based on
right, like one is really morememoir and one is you can have
more fun with it.
How did you feel back thenabout writing all that?
(10:48):
And, oh my gosh, are thesefamilies going to see themselves
in this?
Am I going to go to jail?
Were you just too for lack of abetter word naive?
And I don't mean that in anegative way, it's just.
How did you we?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
were really clear about the satirical mandate.
We were already two peopletelling one story, so this is
not a real family.
In fact, we made Greer a littleboy because of pronouns.
If you'd had three females inone room it would have been a
nightmare.
So we really approached this asnovelists.
We were incredibly aware of theneeds of the story, Even though
(11:21):
we thought only three peoplewere going to read it.
We took it incredibly seriously.
My needs of the story, Eventhough we thought only three
people were going to read it.
We took it incredibly seriously.
My mother was a librarian.
My dad is a bookseller.
Emma's parents were in academia.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Books were everything to us.
Oh my gosh, okay, that's newinformation.
How?
Speaker 2 (11:38):
fun.
So we took this very seriously.
We read that book over hundredsof times.
We would change one sentenceand go back to the beginning and
read it through.
So there's this point in anysort of work that's inspired by
real events where I say topeople there is a moment you
have to let this character stopbeing you and become yours.
(12:01):
They have to be allowed to be alittle bit braver, to think
outside the box and maybe dothings you wouldn't have done.
The converse of that is thatwhen people say to me but this
really happened, I say itdoesn't matter.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
That doesn't necessarily mean it's good for
the story, which is is this partof what you do?
You still do the finishedthought.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Yes, every day.
So I'm working with aspiringauthors or seasoned authors.
I have a lot of clients who arepublished authors multiple
times over, but because of theconsolidation in publishing
which I know you talk about,editors do not have the
bandwidth or the time to payattention to each of their
authors the way they used to, soa lot of times they will hire
me independently so that I cangive them the kind of one-on-one
(12:47):
personal touch that theyotherwise would have had within
the system.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Which is super important because, again, I
think it comes down toexpectations, right, and there's
this expectation that you'regoing to have this red carpet
rolled out and everyone's atyour beck and call.
It's not and and and in theirdefense.
I don't think necessarily thatthat they're putting that on the
table from the start and sayingyou're going to have this again
(13:14):
.
It's an expectation.
But what a great gift to beable to say this is.
You're kind of like they're nottheir therapist, but well, you
probably feel like that.
I really am their therapist.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
And I have clients who still say when are they
going to take me to lunch?
Yes, I'll take you to lunch,but they're not going to take
you to lunch.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
I'm so sorry, right those lunches were too long.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
I had those lunches at the tail end of what that was
.
But has it changed?
Go ahead, go ahead.
No, I was just going to saythat there is an expectation,
because everything needs to beedited.
I don't know if you've talkedabout the great documentary
between Robert Caro and RobertGottlieb, but if people haven't
watched it, they absolutelyshould.
(13:56):
What's that on?
You can rent it on any platformthat you want.
Okay, and it's about theincredible relationship between
one of the best non-fictionauthors of the 20th century.
But even understanding that abook like the power broker would
have been 10 times as long andwould have gone from a
masterpiece to an unwieldy hotmess without Gottlieb.
(14:18):
And they sat elbow to elbowwith a pencil and they just
worked over every singlesentence, and that is.
That is the pinnacle of whatpeople still think of with an
editor.
But unfortunately, a lot oftimes that just doesn't happen
anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
And you know what's interesting is that do you ever
work with indie authors?
Oh, absolutely Okay.
So what I find interesting isthat it's what people want.
This is my experience.
It's what people want when theygo with a traditional house.
They think, or they want theireditor to sit with them and go
line by line.
Now, when they're indie,especially when they're a
(14:54):
first-time author, we don't lookat the editing process as an
integral part.
I call it part two as anintegral part.
I call it part two of itbecause it's not like you write
90% and then you just have thislittle 10% or 95, five, and then
it's just done and out the doorand ready to go.
You know it's.
(15:14):
Do you find that when you'retalking to people work,
especially who are first timeauthors, that there's just kind
of a in their defense?
They don't know, but there's alack of understanding of what
really?
Speaker 2 (15:26):
What writing is the process, part of the creative
process.
I will have clients say to mewith a straight face I don't
like editing.
Then you really should dosomething else.
It's like I really want to bean ice skater but I hate the
cold.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Maybe you should make I want to be barefoot at all
times.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Editing is so much of the process.
Truly, I think of the firstdraft as just making the clay or
making the paint.
You're just creating thematerial that you're then going
to storytell with.
You're not done by any means.
Maybe for Stephen King you'redone, but for the rest of us
we're not done.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
I don't even think.
Then I have this author groupand we meet every couple of
weeks and I use the clay analogy.
Last week I said because for me, I love the editing.
In fact I didn't use clay, Iwas going to use clay and then I
used wax because I was ajewelry designer and I would
carve out of wax, and so when Iwas just sitting with a block of
wax, it was well, it was awful,it was just torture.
(16:23):
But the more defined I got thatwax into the design that I
wanted to get it, I becameobsessed and it was hard
ultimately to let it go.
How do you know with your ownbooks and how do you guide
people on when is it ready,whether it's to go to your back,
to your editor or go to print?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Personally, I know when something is close to done
and this happens every singletime I will start changing
things and then get two pageslater and realize I've either
contradicted myself or I haveset something up that was
already done.
I'm making it worse, and when Istart making it worse, I step
away.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, and how do you know when it's done?
Done, in other words, let'sprint it.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
I think, well, there's a combination of
deadline and felt sense.
Sure, you reach a point whereyou think I can't read this one
more time.
I think it's done.
I think someone needs to takethis away from me now Take it
away.
And then you still think aboutit.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Oh, my, like I.
Do you go back and read yourown books once they've been
published?
You don't?
No, should I?
Oh, no, well, there's no shouldin my world, I mean, unless
it's like we go to the park onTuesdays.
There should not be anapostrophe there, right Like,
with a few exceptions, there'sno should.
But I think I'm a masochist andso I will go back and read mine
(17:46):
and then think, oh, I shouldhave said that a different way.
Why did I so?
I often ask do authors readtheir own work?
Do you read your reviews?
Yeah, the reviews are a wholeseparate conversation.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
But I have found a couple of times because I needed
to read something for a charityevent and to go back and reread
the prologue of the NannyDiaries, even all these years
later, having raised a child.
No, I stand by every word ofthat.
I take back none of it.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And that was done.
No edits right, you and Emma.
No edits, yes.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
That is how it?
Came out.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Now I want to go back and reread it 20 years later,
myself knowing now that it wasfreakish.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
It was truly freakish .
Speaker 1 (18:34):
I mean, it's crazy cool, but not common.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
No, incredibly uncommon.
I really do think that it wasjust whatever force you believe
in was letting us know that wecould do this and we had to keep
going.
Yeah, it never was that easyagain.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I mean, come on, that would just be right.
So, for the best that we couldhope, for how many years has it
been since the last?
Well, since the last book youreleased, since?
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I've already gotten that number wrong.
Yeah, emma and I released our10th book together.
I want to say nine years ago.
Okay, and that was exactly whenI started working on the Best
we Could Hope For nine years ago.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Nine years.
I love that more than I can say, because I'm always looking for
the people.
It took 10 years because it can.
It doesn't have to.
Where did the?
This is different.
This is a much differentstoryline than the Nanny Diaries
was.
Where did this come from?
(19:33):
I?
Speaker 2 (19:34):
had this idea years ago.
Also, I had been writing moresort of lyrical work on my own
before Emma and I startedwriting together and I really
let that go in the service ofour shared voice, our shared
vision, our shared friendship.
But by the time I was turning40, I was feeling this hunger
(19:54):
and this craving to do somethingdifferent.
And Emma God bless her was sucha huge fan of the idea of this
and she really wanted to stepaway.
To let me do this.
But because we had alwaysplotted very explicitly together
in order not to have one of usdrive the story off the rails, I
(20:14):
gave myself permission withthis novel to pants it, and that
took a lot longer.
Every day I would sit down.
I had the general shape of thestory, but I would be surprised
by turns in the narrative asmuch as any reader is now Like,
oh, that character's coming back.
Didn't know that was going tohappen today.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
It's the story of my life.
But I don't think.
I think you stay focused and Ican't Like.
I'm like, oh my God, now hisname's Mateo.
I need 10 days to process thatnews.
So how do you stay on?
Are you an everyday writer?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yes, when I'm creating a first draft, I give
myself the mission of just 500words a day, five days a week.
In seven months, you will havea first draft.
It's not an incredibly heavylift because simultaneously I
was working with all of myclients, so I didn't just stop
down and crank the first draftout in three months.
Also, I had periods where thecharacters hung up on me and so
(21:14):
I just had to wait for them tocall me back and I decided I was
just going to be patient withthat because I wasn't under
deadline and that was the giftthat I was giving myself.
And then the pandemic happened.
So initially, the book wassupposed to go out for
submission on March 3, 2020.
And my agent said let's justgive it a couple of weeks and
just see where things land.
Three years later it finallywent out again, but it was good
(21:37):
All the time that I had allowedthe book to flourish to where it
was supposed to be, and it tookme a long time to see that
clearly.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Well, you say your characters hung up on you.
I think mine have just left.
I don't.
I think they've left thecountry.
I mean, I don't necessarilyblame them, but I don't know
where they are, like I, rightnow.
That's my, that's my excuse isno, I know that, hello, hello.
I know that, hello, hello.
(22:06):
So do you get?
I'm fascinated by the pantsingprocess because I am that and
I'm kind of a plotter and Idon't know.
I think I'm a what do they callit?
A planter, like?
when you're a planter whenyou're kind of in between, do
you?
You can obviously stay on track, though, with it.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
I had a sense, I knew where the story was ultimately
going.
You did so.
There was something driving meforward.
Okay, and after I wrote thefirst incredibly unwieldy
version primarily unwieldybecause I thought initially I
wanted to tell itchronologically- out of order.
(22:40):
And I was.
The story spans from 1943 toaround 2014 and I opened the
novel in 1974.
I had a really clear vision ofthis scene between this mother
and daughter and by startingthere I was having to tell 30
years in flashbacks and thenmoving forward, it was creating
(23:03):
a tonal disconnect.
It just was making itunnecessarily messy and I didn't
recognize that.
That's where I was hangingmyself up until I listened to
Harvey Fierstein's memoir.
For those of you who don't know,he wrote Torch Song Trilogy.
He wrote the book for KinkyBoots on Broadway.
He is the brother in MrsDoubtfire.
(23:26):
He's the best.
I'm completely obsessed withhim and his memoir was a
phenomenal masterclass on storystructure.
And at one point because he'stalking about writing musicals
which take years and you can getit on its feet in one city and
completely reorder the show andget something totally different
and I asked myself is there agiven circumstance that I'm too
(23:48):
attached to where I'm getting myown way?
And as soon as I asked thequestion, I thought, oh, I need
to start at the beginning, not74.
I need to start in 43 and thenjust tell the whole story.
And so over the course of onesummer, I rewrote the entire
novel from the beginning in thepresent tense, and it changed
everything.
New scenes came up, characterssuddenly behaved very
(24:10):
differently when I was with themin the present moment, as
opposed to seeing them from adistance, and it just sparkled
and it was done.
Thank you, harvey.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah well, and I'm gonna link that book below and
the documentary and all was done.
Thank you, harvey.
Yeah, well, and I'm going tolink that book below and the
documentary and all of that, andthen I'm going to spend my day
doing it and not working on myown novel.
You said you ended up making itin the present tense.
When you are trying to decidefor yourself or you're helping
one of your clients decide airquote should it be present tense
(24:40):
or first person, past tense orthird person?
Past tense or third person,past tense or first person,
omniscient or whatever that, allthese different things, what's
your?
Do you have any kind ofguidance on how you help someone
figure out what they want to do, because all of them can work,
do you?
Do you agree with that?
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
And I had actually hung myself up because somewhere
along the line I had gotten thevery unhelpful advice that
serious books were never in thepresent tense, that fiction, all
caps had to be in the pasttense.
And then I read Wolf Hall andthe whole trilogy is in the
present tense, and that's whatmakes it brilliant, the
immediacy of being inside ofHenry VIII's court and Thomas
(25:22):
Cromwell's mind.
And so I was like, well, I justgot some really bad advice and
I'm going to throw that out.
I think the difference betweenbeing in the present tense and
being in the past tense is thatthere's sort of an absolutism to
anything you tell in the pasttense.
It was, and you've already hadtime to process it and it
(25:45):
becomes immutable, it becomesfact.
And because my novel is so muchabout how memories are
unreliable, I wanted to go backand tell the story in the
present tense because peoplewere making decisions in real
time, making mistakes in realtime, and I didn't want you to
meet the consequences of thosemistakes yet Okay that.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
I've never heard that expressed that way, and I I
love that because it's just anew way to look at how.
How movable do you want the,the facts of of it all to be, do
you think too?
I'm just realizing this now formyself.
Readers just have a preference.
(26:29):
I like reading books that arein the first person, in the
present tense, but right now I'mobsessed with.
Have you read Romantic Comedyby Curtis Sittenfeld?
No, I haven't yet, but it's onmy nightstand.
Okay, you're probably not goingto be able to put it down.
She's so good I feel like weneed to talk about it again
(26:50):
after you're finished.
So please let us do that, ifyou can stand me for another.
I didn't realize until lastnight at midnight, which is well
past my bedtime, that it's inthe past tense, like, and it
works.
But it's.
It works because, well, she'sbrilliant.
I mean, she just brings you in.
(27:11):
So I think it can.
It can be you can bring someonein in either way you know
either approach.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Now I'm trying to remember.
Did you read God of the Woodsthis summer?
Was that in the past tense orthe present?
It has that sense of immediacy,but I think it might have been
written in the past tense.
I think that takes some goodskill.
You have to follow your gut.
Yeah, and writers hate it whenI say that to them because they
want there to be an absoluteanswer.
(27:37):
Right, but so much of thecreative process is subjective
and no two people get a bookfinished the same way, Even
people who you absolutelyrespect and adore.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
There's no one who can do it and who have written
30 books I mean people who havewritten dozens of books will
often have a different process,subtly.
Subtly, because their processevolves.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
You can put two Pulitzer Prize winners in the
same room and they will do itcompletely differently.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Well, and it's much like editing.
So I often will say you know,because I edit as well, and I'll
say look, you could put 10 ofthe best editors in the world.
You could give them all thesame manuscript.
They would all have differentsuggestions.
None of them is right and noneof them is wrong.
Yeah, right, and it's maddening, but it's true.
(28:24):
It is maddening because we wantan answer.
We want someone to say this isthe way to say this, in order
for the masses to love it.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
And that is an interesting criteria, because I
often say to people look, youcan do what you want to do.
Ultimately, you have to pleaseyourself.
However, if you're hiring mebecause you want an agent, you
want to be published, you wantto meet the mandate of the
marketplace, well then, I'lltell you how to do that, and
that means you are going to haveto do this handful of things.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
That you maybe don't really want to do, yeah, yeah,
so what in the last nine years,do you see, has really changed
or shifted in publishing thatyou either knew was happening
because you were following it,or kind of surprised you.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
I think the resurgence of the print book has
been a delightful surprise.
You know that Kindle dominancewas a blip.
Readers love reading books,even my daughter.
I offered to get her a Kindlesubscription because she just
tears through porn, basically,and she said no, mom, it's my
paper time, it's the time that Iam away from the digital media.
(29:33):
I was like fine, I'll keeppaying for the books.
That was a great answer, sothat's been wonderful.
I think the consolidationscontinue apace.
I think that what that means isthat agents are doing more
editing than they ever didbefore, but that's time
consuming, so I think they'retaking on fewer clients than
they ever did before, andpublishing houses are having a
(29:56):
really hard time figuring outhow to break out.
First-time authors right now,and I think the onus has also
shifted so much more ontoauthors to promote your book.
On one hand, it's great becauseit gives you something to do.
You're not just sitting theretwiddling your thumbs waiting
for a magazine to cover you.
But for authors who are alittle bit shy, it can feel
(30:17):
torturous.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
A thousand, even though there's no such thing as
a thousand percent.
A thousand percent because somany creative people, whether
they're writers or painters ormusicians, like they.
They're introverted or theythey identify as introverted.
Being in front of people andselling their own thing and
(30:41):
trying to convince other peoplewhy they should invest in
something.
That is torturous is a greatword.
It's so mean, and yet it's justwhat it is.
And so I often say to peopleyou don't have to do anything.
You can put the book out andyou can hope and pray that word
(31:01):
of mouth will do something, butif it doesn't, don't come back
and say it's not.
No one's buying it.
There are 42 million titles onAmazon.
It's probably more than thatnow.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yes, and you'll be mad at yourself if you didn't
try.
And I also say to people, thereare so many ways of coming at
this.
You find the thing that you dolove talking about or love
posting about Catherine Newmanhas her fabulous cats, you know.
Find the thing that fills youwith joy and you will
communicate that joy to otherpeople.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
What did you call them?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Publicity snafus, and oh yes, pr nightmares, unforced
, errors.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
But it's.
I tell people and I'm going totell people, like go watch your
Instagram, because, people, youcan promote yourself without
promoting yourself.
Oh, absolutely, because if Ihad seen first of all, I would
have been like, oh my God, shesaid to Adam Brody, but then it
wasn't Adam Brody.
I'm really I'm still recoveringfrom that.
I had a really scary momentthere.
(32:01):
You see the person, you fall inlove with the person and then
you find out, oh, they'vewritten a book.
I'm going to go check it out.
That's just sort of how ourbrain works.
It's not.
It doesn't have to be.
Hi, I'm Elizabeth.
I wrote this book.
Go buy it.
Have a great day.
What's your favorite approachto public?
What are you enjoying doing forthe new book?
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Well, I mean loving talking to people.
As someone who spends way toomuch time every day by myself at
my desk, especially talking toother people who are equally
obsessed with books, it's really, really fun.
I'm writing a lot of essays,which is really challenging.
Halfway through each one I gowhy would anyone care?
And then I have to slap myselfin the face and just keep going
(32:44):
and not talk myself out of itand then looking forward to
getting the book in people'shands.
After nine years of being alonewith this story, it's been
wonderful to see the earlyreviews and see that people are
deeply moved by this story, soI'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I think that's always helpful in feeding one's
momentum and author's momentumis starting to get that feedback
that people are moved by it inways that you didn't anticipate.
Has that happened at all, wheresomeone said this particular
scene or the mention of thisthing really struck me and you
think I didn't intend that, thisthing really struck me and you
(33:22):
think I didn't intend thatAbsolutely.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
I had one woman who was given the book through a
mutual friend who'd gotten areview copy so not a reviewer.
But she got my phone number andcalled me, hysterically sobbing
, and she said I read the end ofthe book and I looked at the
clock and realized it was theanniversary of my mother's death
and I felt like you sent thisbook to me to heal that
relationship.
What do you say to that?
I don't.
(33:47):
It was such a gift.
I was like all right, I'm done.
I don't need anyone else toread it Right, right, thank you.
That was the mission I wrote itjust for you.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
I'm going to go get a miniature Highland cow and call
it a day.
That's my new obsession.
If you post about a miniatureHighland cow on Instagram and
you're an author, I'll buyeverything you've ever written.
So there's an idea.
Good to know.
Yes, Well, if you get one, I'mjust going to show up.
It's like listen, we've had aconversation.
Here I am.
(34:13):
I'm here to pet the cow.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
I'm now obsessed with the mini goats the people have,
like the hand-sized goats.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
The, the people of like the hand-sized goats, the
way they hop around.
They're so cute.
I I feel like they're just sojoyful.
I know they seem very happy, tobe small.
They prant.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Have you seen the, the baby donkeys yes I mean I
know this is what the internetwas made for it.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
How do they come out so furry?
Sometimes the owners of themother donkey, whatever that's
called will be like this babydonkey was just born two hours
ago and I think, like you'vealready fluffed it up it's so
fluffy like did you.
Is there a did you?
I don't know what.
Is there a comb, like somethingwent?
Speaker 2 (34:55):
on there you took a little blow dryer to the donkey
apparatus.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I feel like they've been glammed.
They have a glam squad.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I'm totally your friend, there's a job.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
If you haven't found this yet, I'm probably going to
say it wrong.
But Knuckle Bump Farms.
No, okay, I'm going to send you, I'm going to Instagram it to
you and I'll put it under below.
I'm so disappointed right nowthat I can't remember this
girl's name.
I'll put it in the introbecause she's the star of the
(35:28):
whole thing and I.
She's this farmer and sheraises this whole gaggle of
animals and she kind of becamefamous because she has this emu
named Emmanuel Todd Lopez.
Yes, yes to all of that, yes toall of it.
And Emmanuel won't let her filmanything.
(35:50):
So when she's filming, all of asudden you'll see the emu's
head come up and then it willjust people listening can't see
this, but he'll peck the cameraand she's like Emmanuel, stop it
, emmanuel.
And it's just life-giving.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Oh, that's wonderful.
I'm going to go check that outtoday.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
I need to let you know that now you know about
that and you can join me.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
No, I feel better.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Thank you, I'm glad Because otherwise I just told
everyone's like move on Um.
What with indie authors?
How?
Do you, how are you guidingthem differently, like in terms
of what are you seeing in termsof pros, cons, opportunities,
challenges?
Speaker 2 (36:33):
We, emma and I, did our last book through an indie
publisher.
Okay, and it was phenomenal.
We had already written the bookand our conventional publisher
gave it back to us Keep yourmoney, keep the book.
We just want to do somethingelse, so we gave them a
(36:54):
different story.
It had already been paid forthe book and we had it, but we
really wanted to share it withpeople and it was called so
Close and people are stillbuying it and love it.
It was a great experience.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
So was it like a, was it a self self, it was a
bookspark, oh bookspark.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Okay yeah, and it was fantastic.
So essentially, we bought awonderful PR package.
We got some of the bestpromotion we've ever gotten.
The book was in all thebookstores, it was available
online Nobody could tell thedifference and it was a level of
attention and thoughtfulness interms of getting the book in
(37:38):
the hands of people who actuallywanted it that we had never
experienced in conventionalpublishing.
So I'm a big fan.
They're here, I believe,scottsdale.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
The way that conventional publishing operates
needs to be disrupted.
Thank you.
They don't know how to market.
It is mind-blowing for myclients who are CEOs when they
move through the process oftrying to sell their book and
realize that there is no realplan for letting people know
that their book is coming out.
They are stunned, no matter howmuch I warn them.
(38:12):
So they expect to take all thismoney on the back end to offset
their investment.
But other than physicallymaking the book and doing the
distribution which any hybridcan do, what are they doing for
you, right?
So I do think that people aregoing to be making the shift.
I won't say en masse, but Ithink that's going to be a far
(38:33):
bigger segment of publishingover the next decade.
Speaker 1 (38:37):
Well, and I think it's very interesting because
and I'm admittedly, I've neverbeen traditionally published.
So all of my anecdotal evidencecomes from my many friends who
are, and people I talk to hereon the podcast who have been or
are, and I have several friendswho are traditionally published
and wouldn't have it any otherway.
And then, on the flip side, Iwork with individuals who come
(38:59):
to me and they say I really wantto pursue a traditional route
and I always ask why?
Because I think why you'regoing around as important?
And they'll say, well, becausethey'll sell the book for me.
And that's when we have to havean honest conversation and
sometimes they believe me andsometimes they don't and they
think, well, you've never doneit, I'm going to be the
exception, or whatever the caseis.
And if they get the deal, lotsof times they come back and say
(39:22):
you were right, which I love,love, love to hear, and because
I never hear it from my children.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
So I will take it wherever I can get it, totally.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, and then other times you know, they know what
to expect.
Like I have a good friend,neely Alexander, who is a
phenomenal fiction writer withHarper Collins, actually works
with book sparks, has workedwith book sparks in the past on
her publicity.
So one of the things that youknow she's told me and said
publicly I'm not is that lots oftimes traditionally published
(39:51):
authors will take their advanceand they will then give a large
portion, if not all of it, topublicity and also to someone
like yourself who's helping themfinish the book or guide them
through the publishing process,so that they have someone their
911 person.
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
When I always ask people why do you want to write
a book?
And if they say anything aboutmaking money or hitting
bestseller or yeah, you are inthe wrong arena because you are
going to take that advance andinvest it back into your
publicity.
Oh my gosh, sorry, the doorbelljust rang and my dog went
ballistic.
Can you hold on one second?
Speaker 1 (40:29):
I didn't even hear it .
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, I prayed that UPS wasn't going to show up
while I was talking to you.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Yeah, that's the beauty of this not being live.
Yeah, thank you, but if it were, I would just vamp.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
If it was live, I was going to drop him off at the.
I was about to say the dogshelter, not the dog shelter,
the dog daycare around thecorner.
I love him.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
The shelter, To be clear everyone.
But if you went there, theremight be an emu that you could
name Totally, or just a raccoonin a vest, which is my favorite
thing All of it Like.
This is what it's come to.
Okay, last I got, I could talkto you for at truly, we're going
to do this.
You don't real, you may notlike agree, but it's going to
(41:09):
happen.
So the last question I alwaysask people is what are you
reading now, or what have youread recently that you just
really loved?
Speaker 2 (41:17):
Ooh, look at that cover.
Isn't it a beautiful cover.
It's called the Safe Keep byYael van der Woeden.
She is a Dutch author.
It is in translation.
My neighbor bought the booklast week, stayed up all night
reading it in one sitting.
Gave it to my other neighborwe're all in a book club
together.
She read it in one day.
(41:38):
I started reading it in onesitting.
Gave it to my other neighborwe're all in a book club
together she read it in one day.
I started reading it yesterday.
If I hadn't had to stop for myhusband's birthday, I would have
stayed up all night finishingit.
It's compulsive.
It's set in Holland in 1961,over the course of a couple of
weeks, in the countryside.
Nothing about this seems likeit is the makings of a thriller.
(42:00):
It's not a thriller, it's justincredibly compulsive and
propulsive and you just don'twant to stop reading.
You're dying to find out whathappens.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
I find that really interesting, because the way you
described it and you said likethis doesn't you don't hear this
and go.
Oh my God, I have to have thatRight and yet it and so it
creates such a kind of a problemfor authors, until there's
someone like you and yourneighbors who are telling people
yes, cause, now I'm ordering it.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
This is what, when people ask me, how can I help
authors?
If you loved a book, tellpeople.
You don't have to do it onsocial media.
You can just tell your friends,but that is how the word gets
spread.
It's so important.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Don't keep the love to yourself.
Say that again.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Don't keep the love to yourself.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
Don't keep the love.
It's just, I mean, with all thelittle libraries.
I was on a walk the other dayand one of my neighbors has one
of those free little librariesin front of her house and I I
found the um, sophie Cousins, Ithink, is her name, and she's
kind of a rom-com, you know,like an Emily Henry vibe, and I
don't like comparing peoplecause that's not fair, but
(43:10):
that's the general gist.
I had never heard of her andthen I messaged.
I didn't message her but Itagged her on Instagram and she
liked it.
And I thought this is how ithappens, you know because it's
just you, just people likesomething and they're willing to
pass it on.
And sometimes that's hardbecause I like to keep them all
(43:31):
around me.
It's like a warm blanket, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Also if someone gives me a book and I love the book.
I will then go and buy a copyto give to someone else, or I
will buy the audio, or I willmake a purchase to help support
the author, because those thingsare incredibly important in
terms of giving authors theopportunity to be published
again.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
That, no matter how they publish the first time, but
certainly in a traditionalworld, because those numbers are
everything, it is a business.
Yes, Right, and those numbersare I mean the publishing houses
I think it is safe to say maketheir money off their top one,
the top 1%, right?
(44:12):
Yes, and that goes back to whatyou said at the beginning about
getting these debut authors tobreak out, is it's a real, it's
important to them and it's areal challenge.
Speaker 2 (44:23):
Also, it really annoys me when people who write
literary fiction are then snarkyabout their commercial siblings
in the other divisions.
Like those people areunderwriting you being published
Right.
You should say a big thank youto them.
We need Lee Childs and StephenKing and David Baldacci and all
of those people because they'rekeeping the lights on Sing it.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
I mean really.
And so I think it's just it'sperspective and it's hearing
that and recognizing.
You know, when you hear therecan be a, when they come out
with the reports every quarterof how well the or every year of
how well the publishing housesare doing, and they say, oh,
they're down 25%, it's notbecause people aren't reading
books, it's because Lee Childsdidn't publish a book in that
(45:07):
particular year or quarter ormonth or whatever it was.
It has nothing.
We can't misconstrue theoverall trends, correct.
Well, I cannot wait.
I don't have my hands yet onthe best, don't worry, it's
coming.
Oh, good Coming.
I either Diana has sent it orI'm ordering it or both, because
(45:29):
I have a feeling the fact thatit starts the one character was
born in 1972.
Right, yes.
One character, yes, yes,because I was born in 1972,
right, yes.
One character, yes, yes,because I was born in 1972.
I mean not to, not to, but Ijust feel like that was a sign.
So I'm going to send a copy tomy mother because she birthed me
in 1972.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
So read it before you send it to her.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Oh really, yeah, Well , no, wait, wait, we can't, why.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
It looks at baby boomers as being possibly the
worst parents.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh, I'm totally sending it to her, then, oh,
this is great, this is going tobe like a psychological study,
like how she reacts to it.
It's going to give us a goodconversation, I feel.
Oh excellent.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, I feel great about it.
Oh, I knew people like thisRight.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
Is there Tupperware?
Oh, yes, of course.
Yes, oh, this is God.
I'm so excited and I'd lovejust first of all the absolute
best of luck with it, thank, youfor doing the Danny.
Diaries and keeping me so happyduring that time when I was
just very happy but drowning inbottles.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
Drowning, drowning, yes, no, laughter is everything.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
Laughter is everything I'm going to send.
On that note, I will send youthe Instagram, Emmanuel Todd
Lopez, and thank you.
Thank you so much for joiningme.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Oh my gosh this was so great.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
(47:18):
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
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