May 14, 2025 • 46 mins
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In this episode, author Audrey Ingram spills the tea on what inspired her newest novel, The Summer We Ran (coming June 3, 2025). Think: teenage love, political ambition, and a dual-timeline structure that spans 25 years and manages to hit you right in the gut and makes you think.
We also dig into how Audrey traded in her life as a practicing attorney for full-time writing and mom-life. The decision to pivot careers during a pandemic? Bold. Brave. And totally intentional. Plus, it’s given her a fresh lens on fulfillment, feminism, and what it really means to choose your own adventure.
INSIDE THE EPISODE:
🎙️ Why the publishing world is actually a surprisingly supportive crew—and how connecting with fellow writers can keep you sane
🎙️ How redefining feminism helped her embrace passion over pressure
🎙️ Her 12-week first draft practice, and why editing is where the magic happens
🎙️ The role of trusted early readers (and how she uniquely approaches this step)
🎙️ How she ups the ante with every book by challenging herself structurally
🎙️ Her secret weapon for leveling up as a writer
🎙️ What she does with thoughtful reviews, and how she ensures she stays true to her own voice
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:11):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody, you know it'salways nice when a book cover
all by itself can transport meout of my current reality and
into one that I desire.
That's exactly what happenedwhen I opened up my copy of the
Summer we Ran by Audrey Ingram.
I'm going to regale you withthe jacket copy.
Does your past define yourdestiny?
Told through multipleperspectives rich with emotion
(01:32):
and immersive dual timelines,the Summer we Ran weaves
together a story of lost love,devastating secrets, shocking
sabotage and the painstakingdecision two people must make in
order to fulfill the futuresthey each desire.
In the summer of 1996, teenageTess Murphy's mom gave her two
rules to abide by keep quiet andstay out of trouble.
(01:54):
Her mother landed a new job asa cook at an affluent Virginia
estate and didn't want anythingto risk the opportunity.
Least of all her outspokendaughter.
Want anything to risk theopportunity, least of all her
outspoken daughter.
What no one saw coming was Tessfalling deeply in love with the
boy next door, high societyGrant Alexander.
Over a few wondrous andheat-filled months, tess and
(02:15):
Grant's love blooms soferociously.
It feels utterly impossiblethat anything can keep them
apart until tragedy strikes andthe teenagers find themselves
pained by betrayal, with littlehope to repair the damage that's
been done.
Now, two decades after theirepic teenage romance abruptly
ended in heartbreak, tess andGrant are both running for
(02:35):
governor of Virginia, wheresecrets from that summer
threatened to shatter theirfamilies, futures and the love
they once shared.
I don't know why when I firstsaw the title I was thinking it
was the summer we ran, like weran a marathon, and I was turned
on by the cover and turned offby the title.
But after talking to Audrey andalso reading this back cover
copy, I came to understand it'sthe summer we ran as in.
(02:57):
Like for politics, audrey isalso the author of A River Runs
South and the Group Trip.
She's a graduate of MiddleburyCollege and Georgetown
University Law Center and shepracticed law in Washington DC
for 15 years.
I don't really think I needmuch more of an intro for this.
She has so many great writingtips that I know you're going to
love.
As per usual, all of Audrey'sinformation is in the episode
(03:19):
notes.
I'm just going to launch rightinto the conversation.
This is your third book, right?
This is my third novel.
I'm putting it.
The people who are listeningcan't see it, but if I do video
clips they can.
I'm so in love with this cover.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Oh, thank you.
You know, the setting is alwaysreally important for me in
every book, and especially inthis one, and so I had sent my
publisher some images of thearea, because this book is set
in the Virginia countrysidewhere I live, and when they sent
me the first kind of coverdraft I was like, almost had
tears in my eyes.
I was like this is so perfect.
(03:59):
It really just you want to justdive into it.
So, thank you, I love it too.
I'm certainly partial, but I'mso glad you like it as well.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
No, I love it and great point because I think for
me, the most important thing isthat the author is in love with
her own or his own cover.
I think it's challenging orI've heard that it's challenging
to promote a book with a coverthat you don't like if you're
the author.
(04:27):
I don't know, has that everhappened with any of your books
the two prior?
It hasn't.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I've been really lucky, but I have heard the same
horror stories as you and thenumber of times authors are
holding up the book next totheir face and smiling and I
can't imagine if I was doingthat and internally cringing at
the same time.
I feel very fortunate.
I have loved all of my covers.
I will say I'm very partial tothis one.
It might be my very favorite,and so it's wonderful.
(04:57):
I'm so excited to show it off.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's so and it's so bright it just makes me want to.
It's funny because when I firstsaw it, there are the flowers
at the bottom.
The first thing I saw wasraspberries.
I don't know why.
It probably was Freudian and Ithought I this is so weird, but
I thought I want to be in Napadrinking wine and eating
raspberries.
As I read this, and I don'tdrink wine and I don't go to
Napa, so I'm not.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
It's giving you those summer vibes, which is exactly
is.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, it totally is so, being three books in now.
One thing that I'm enjoyingasking people who have written
books previously or been in thisspace for a long time, even if
they haven't yet published,which you have is what's
something that it's sort of likeif you could pay it forward
with not advice but a suggestion.
(05:45):
What's something that you wouldsay to maybe your younger self
or to someone coming into thespace for the first time I don't
even know if it's fair to sayto your younger self anymore,
because so much has changed, butsomeone who's coming into the
space for the first time andjust feeling overwhelmed and
terrified.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, first I want to give you a hug because we all
authors have felt overwhelmedand terrified.
But I will also say that thisis one of my favorite parts of
this business is how collegialit really is, which is strange
to say, because you're mostlysitting by yourself in front of
your computer inventing thesestories, but really at the end
(06:27):
of the day you are working,hopefully hand in hand with your
editor and then with the teamat your publisher, and then
reaching out to your authorfriends and sharing drafts with
them and then cheering eachother on.
It really is that old adage ofa rising tide lifts all boats,
and that's so true in thisindustry.
And I will say I think with mydebut I was a little bit nervous
(06:51):
about reaching out to otherdebut authors and I would just
say don't be, you're all.
Whether you got a six-figuredeal or you're self-publishing,
you're all starting off at thesame point.
Your self-publishing, you're allstarting off at the same point.
And really, you know I'm onlythree books in, but I've already
seen none of that stuff reallymatters as far as the trajectory
(07:16):
of your career.
I've seen authors that had hugefirst deals that still haven't
put out another book and I'veseen authors that had teeny tiny
deals that now are, you know,celebrity book club picks, and
so really you're all startingout at the same point and
forming those closerelationships with other authors
in your debut year is sorewarding and then also so
critical.
(07:36):
They are your colleagues and Iwould treat them as such, treat
them with respect, but you alsoget to talk about books, which
you all obviously all love.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah Well, I think it's interesting because the
industry the book publishingindustry sort of has a
reputation for being verycutthroat, very competitive and,
in some cases, very catty inits competitiveness.
I think to your point, it's oneof the most lovely.
(08:06):
I've met some of the mostlovely people.
I have found other authors,fellow authors, to be so
generous and helpful andencouraging and kind.
So maybe it's just when youwere first getting started
remind me what year your debutcame out.
(08:26):
I was 2023, september of 2023.
Okay, so when you, when thatwas, gosh, that's a, that's
three books in two, all right,we got to talk about that,
heading off with someraspberries and something.
So when you were first gettingstarted and you felt like, oh my
(08:47):
gosh, I don't want to.
It feels uncomfortable to reachout to people, et cetera, how
quickly did you realize or didyou have any experiences that
made you say otherwise?
You know that was it always so?
Welcoming is kind of what I'masking.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It was, and I think that was all in my head.
I think what happened was I hada couple of authors who have
become good friends reach outand say we've written similar
books, we're launching aroundthe same time, do you want to do
an event together?
And I thought, oh, how fun,cause I was so nervous about
reaching out to bookstores to doevents and you're helping me
and you really do benefit fromthat shared experience.
(09:25):
And then you find you find theauthors who write similar books
to you and then you startexchanging drafts or
brainstorming plot ideas and itreally does become this really
collaborative environment that Iwas scared to enter into.
And I think part of that isjust imposter syndrome.
Like, am I a real author, am Inot?
You're probably a real author,but I'm not.
(09:46):
And I had to get over that.
And I was lucky that I had somepeople who were just braver
than me and reached out and thenthat gave me the bravery to
reach out to other people aswell.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I do find that there's less of a competitive
it's me or you and more of a itcould be me and you, like.
You know it's not this sense ofthey're going to buy your.
If they buy your book, they'renot going to buy my book.
It's kind of you're going toenjoy both of these books, so
just buy them both together.
And I love that because I don'tthink we find that in a lot of
(10:17):
other.
You know, not professionalspaces, but where people are
trying to sell something.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, and I think that's the wonderful thing about
the reading community is, oncethey find one author they enjoy,
they want to hear who else doyou enjoy, whose books do you
find similar to, and then I wantto read them.
So it really is.
You know, I don't.
I don't find that if somebodypicks another author, they're
picking their book over mine.
It is there's.
We are such we are at afortunate time as readers that
(10:46):
there is an abundance of amazingliterature coming out.
Every time I step foot into abookstore I think how lucky am I
that my book is one of all ofthese.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
How lucky am I that a reader even found it.
Yeah, it's unbelievable.
Yeah, I'm like protect thechecking account.
That's what I say when I walkinto the bookstore, because it's
bad.
I mean, there's unbelievable.
Yeah, I'm like protect thechecking account.
That's what I say when I walkinto the bookstore, because it's
bad.
I mean, there's just itsupports the libraries.
How oh libraries Sing it?
Yes, I just got an email theother day that my local library
now has an app and I thought,well, I just assumed all
(11:20):
libraries had an app, butapparently not my mind and I got
so excited.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
It's wonderful Like yay for you.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Okay, so I'd love to talk about your writing process,
since you've done so many in ashort period of time and you
said something.
I wrote it down venting thestories which I haven't heard
before.
Tell me about your process,because you're a practicing.
Are you still a practicing?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
attorney.
I am not.
So my journey was I was apracticing attorney at a law
practice in Washington DC andthen, and for a while, I had
been feeling, you know, a littlebit burned out.
I had three young children.
I was a partner at a law firm.
It was, it was just a lot, andthen the pandemic hit and it
became a whole lot like for alot of families who were trying
(12:05):
to figure this all out.
So my firm let me take a leaveof absence and I was used to
waking up very early in themorning to commute into the city
I live in Virginia and I justused that time to start writing.
And so it was.
I was a pandemic careerswitcher who turned a
stay-at-home mom and then wrotea book, and so it's really been
(12:27):
just a dream for me to be ableto kind of make that switch.
So I am not practicing now.
Now I am just being a mom andbeing a writer, which is a joy
to say.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Right, I think that's what so many people aspire to
and get there, if and when theyget there, because everyone has
a different circumstance, and I,you know, I was talking to Jane
Friedman a couple of weeks ago,who's just so delightful and so
knowledgeable and what she wassaying so helpful for writers.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I mean so generous with her knowledge.
It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
It's really incredible and she made a really
great and it was an obviouspoint, but I don't think it's
something that people talk aboutenough, which is that the vast
majority of writers have asecondary source of income,
whether it's a partner or alarge savings account or some
(13:22):
other work that they do, whetherit's in the writing realm or
not.
I mean, sometimes people go outand they do something during
the day that has nothing to dowith writing and it's not a mark
of and I'm putting the airquotes failure or I'm not really
a writer if you aren't writingfull time.
And yet for people who can, thepeople who I've talked to, who
(13:45):
are able to do that for whatevervariety of reasons, are so
grateful.
Like they recognize and I cansee that in your face like that
you recognize that gift.
Would it be fair to say a gift?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Oh, a thousand percent a gift.
And I think you know there arewriters I admire so much.
Liz Moore comes to theforefront of my mind.
She just wrote God of the Woodsand she said you know I, she
teaches as well.
And she says I tell my studentsI write and I have another job
and you will as well, mostlikely.
And I think it is this kind ofmisconception in the industry
(14:22):
that almost everyone gets a bookdeal and then that becomes
their full time income and it'snot the case by a stretch.
I am very fortunate the waythings have fallen into place
for me and it does.
It feels a thousand percentlike a gift every day that I get
to have this pursuit that is sofulfilling for me and also have
(14:43):
the time with my family, whichwas something I felt a lot of
guilt about for a long time, andI even felt a lot of guilt
about leaving behind my legalcareer, and what did that mean
as an example for my daughter,for other women, and I had to
let go of that and really enjoythis moment of my life and the
fulfillment it's bringing mepersonally.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
That's interesting.
What I mean.
Can you say a little bit moreabout that?
Because I would innately Idon't know if innately is the
right word, but my initialthought would be oh, this is so
empowering.
I too have daughters.
It'd be so empowering for mydaughters to say I'm leaving
this and I'm pursuing this.
I'm not settling, I'm pursuingthis new love.
(15:25):
It's not necessarily areplacement, do you think?
Did the financial realm of thatcome in a little bit where?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I think it's so interesting that you frame it
that way about how you wouldshare that story with your
daughters.
I think for me I had gone tolaw school and had pursued a
legal career and I just feltlike this identity of being a
career woman was so personal tome and I was in a position where
(15:54):
I was mentoring a lot of juniorfemale associates and that I
thought, was, you know, just soimportant.
And I thought what kind ofexample am I showing to them if
I say I don't feel like I'mgetting enough time with my kids
?
I want to be home with mychildren more?
Is that setting us back infeminism?
And I think it took a reallyimportant conversation I had
(16:15):
with my mother where she said ifyour daughter was coming to you
and saying there's this thing Ilove, that I want to do, but
I'm not going to do it because Ithink society expects me to do
something else, would you tellher that's feminism?
Would you tell her that's theright decision?
And it totally shifted myframing that you know, feminism
(16:36):
is the choice.
And if I was staying insomething because I felt it was
an obligation and an expectation, I wasn't making that choice.
And what kind of example do Ireally want to provide for my
daughter?
And making that leap that feltat the time.
You know, a working parent withthree kids like this is so
irresponsible.
(16:57):
But for our family we made itwork and it has a thousand
percent been the right choice.
And I think you know my husband, my children, all of us really
feel like it's just improved allof our lives and I'm so
grateful for it.
But it was a very scary thingand a thing I felt a lot of
guilt about.
But I think all big decisionsin life can feel like that.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And I hear that word a lot irresponsible.
I also heard it from myself fora long time.
It would be irresponsible to dothis.
I have five kids, so I have allthese kids to manage, or
whatever.
It would be irresponsible.
My hat is off to you.
Well, I don't.
I've lost my mind quite sometime ago.
(17:39):
They're all getting older.
Now the youngest is 17.
So, god willing, they all arestarting to do their own thing
here.
Does some, do some of thesethemes make their way into?
I know the summer we ran has alot of sort of co-mingling,
interconnected themes.
There's a lot going on.
There's multiple point of viewthis is what's the word I want
(18:02):
to use Complicated right, it iscomplicated, and I can't wait to
see how you navigate all this.
Was that?
Do the themes work their way inin that way, like the women's,
and what choices are we making?
And yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
And so the summer we ran is about first loves turned
political rivals and it is toldin two timelines the summer they
fall in love as teenagers andthen, 25 years later, when they
are both running to becomegovernor of Virginia and so on
face value it is a veryemotional love story and I think
(18:41):
all of those complicatedrelationships so between the
people we love, whether it's aparent and child, whether it's a
spouse, whether it's a lostlove, those are the
relationships that I enjoyreading and I also clearly enjoy
writing about.
And I think, although there isno relationship in my life, that
(19:04):
is exactly like the stories Iwrite.
I'm constantly pulling fromthose feelings of what does it
mean to be a career woman today?
And conversations I've had withformer colleagues about the
pressure they feel to havechildren or not have children,
to even justify thoseexplanations, those questions.
I think being a woman intoday's society is a very
(19:27):
complicated assignment and Ilove exploring that in all
capacities, the relationships wehave and also the relationships
with ourself and how we viewourselves, how kind we are to
ourselves and how hard we are onourselves, and those are
certainly themes that come outin this novel.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Do you, when you're writing, sometimes have to not
take a break from the writing,necessarily, but do you ever
stop and go like, what do Ithink about that, you know, and
so that's what kind of goingback to when you said venting
onto the page, which can mean avariety of different things, but
do you sometimes find that youuse your writing to write your
(20:10):
way into your understanding ofyourself or a better
understanding of maybe someoneelse in your life who's gone
through something that'sinfluenced or inspired your
writing?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
A thousand percent.
There are days when I finishwriting and I think, wow, that
was a therapy session because Ihave been a lifelong journaler.
So I think I process my lifeand my emotions through writing
and I will sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously, be
in a character and be processingthese things that have happened
(20:43):
to me or impacted me or I havehad questions about in other
people's lives, and I will writethrough it and really come out
of the other side thinking Ididn't expect that and I think
that's fun about writing is yousurprise yourself sometimes.
But boy, did I learn somethingthrough that process.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I find that part fascinating and I don't know
what other word to use besidesthat.
I think you nailed it when yousaid wow, that was a therapy
session.
I think for some people itstops them Because, especially
if they're working on theirfirst book, they that's when the
imposter syndrome really comesin, because they think, oh my
(21:21):
God, I don't know thesecharacters, I don't know this
story.
I think for pantsers it'seasier than for plotters,
because pantsers expect this iswhat I'm here, I'm kind of a
plantser, but when you're, youknow, when you're a pantser, you
, it's like you wake up everyday and go, well, it's going to
happen today.
But when you're a plotter andyou've lined it all out and then
(21:42):
something shows up that'sunexpected, I hear that people
say, oh, I started to questionwhether I really knew where the
story was going and then I gotstuck.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, and that to me is one of the hardest parts of
my transition from my legalcareer to my writing career are
the inherent inefficiencies.
And it used to drive me crazy,I would say, because I was
someone.
When you're a lawyer, you haveto account for six minute
increments of your day and writethem down, and there are days
(22:13):
when I write and I think theonly thing I got out of this
writing session is one sentencethat I like, but at the end of
the day, that is one sentenceforward, and even if it was
deleting, that is still progress.
And so I've had to, in my mind,reframe what is efficiency,
because in a creative process itis not linear linear, and I
(22:37):
have now gotten joy in that thatI can play and have fun and it
does not have to be a certainnumber of words ticked off every
day in order to have been anefficient writing day.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Do you write every day?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
It depends.
When I am doing a first draft,I find that I have to be in the
story every day or I lose thatmomentum.
But now with book three thereis a juggling act a little bit.
You're doing different thingsat different times, so I may not
be in my current drafting storyevery day, Unfortunately.
(23:10):
I would love to be the writingdays in sweatpants, messy hair,
no makeup.
Those are my very favorite days, but they aren't every day,
unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Are you someone who rushes to the end of a first
draft?
Is that meaning?
Is your goal to just get thedamn thing on the page and then
start fixing it, or are you amore thoughtful?
What's your and that may change.
I mean, it can change rightFrom book to book.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, it can certainly change For me, at
least in these three books Ihave been.
Once I start writing the draft,I'm pretty dedicated and
consistent and I try to finishit in 12 weeks.
So I try to finish our firstdraft in 12 weeks.
That's the time that reallyworks for me of putting down
those words every day.
That's the time that reallyworks for me of, you know,
(23:57):
putting down those words everyday.
But the part I really enjoy andwhere I think my books become
real books is the editingprocess, and that, to me, is fun
, because you're pulling thingsapart, you're putting things
back together, You're reallytrying to experience it as a
reader would and thinkingthrough is the pacing right in
this?
Is this a choice the characterwould really make?
That's what I think is thedifference.
(24:17):
When I was first starting outwith my debut, I thought, oh,
getting the first draft out,that's the hardest part, right
Spoiler?
It's not, at least not for me.
The real work is in the editingand the drafts, and for all of
my books they've gone throughseveral drafts with just me
before they go off to my actualeditor.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Well, that's what I was going to ask.
Do you then, do you move, doyou do any kind of beta process
with people, or do you have acritique partner before it goes
to your editor?
What's your process for thatnow?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
So I have for every book.
I have three readers that Isend drafts to.
The first one is always my mom,who is a voracious reader, and
she will say this is so great, Ilove it, Even when it's a trash
draft.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So she's your alpha reader, she's the she is my
alpha reader.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, and you.
But I think I always tellwriters it's so important to
have that person and and it'snot always like it may not be
your mom, it may be someone thatyou don't really know that well
, that can just be yourcheerleader but you're like this
is awesome, Even though it'sreally not, yeah, yeah.
So I always send it to her andand it's not a useless process
(25:29):
because she will tell me thethings that are really working
and so I can really lean intothose.
She will say, oh, this momentwas great.
And I'll think, oh well, let mesee if I can enhance that or
pull more of those things.
So that's always really helpful.
My sister is my second readerand she is just the most
(25:50):
emotionally intelligent personI've ever met and she can tell
me this does not make sense, aperson wouldn't do this, or why.
Why she really?
She helps me build mycharacters in a way I can't see
through just my lens, and sothat is so important.
And then the third person is agood friend who reads more books
(26:13):
than I think is humanlypossible and she just really has
her finger on the market andwhat people are doing and she
can say I felt like this was aplot hole or I felt like this
was merging genres too much, orshe gives me some real feedback,
and those are always the firstthree people that read it, and
then I usually will go through acouple more drafts after that.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
But are they doing it at the same time?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I'm sorry.
Yeah, I said it at the sametime.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I just think it's.
You know, so often when,especially when people are
working on their first books,they think that the, like you
said, the writing is the hardpart, and then the editing is
going to take five minutes.
Right, someone's just gonna dosome copy edits and move
something, but it really is at.
To me anyway, it's at least 50of the process yeah, sometimes
(27:02):
it's more like 70 yeah, I thinkyou're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
which is hard and look, I don't think new
novelists need to know that likeyou.
Just it's like how do you eatan elephant one bite a time?
So just take your one bite anddo that, and then you can think
about the next things.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
And I think that adage, you know, journey of a
thousand miles begins with asingle step.
You know, eat an elephant onebite at a time.
Those things hold true and aretrue and are used because they
make perfect sense.
I mean it's, you know, it'slike a little kid trying to eat
broccoli, just one bite at atime.
Just the collaborative part ofit and not and seeing what you
(27:43):
didn't see, where your blindspots were.
I think it's what makes usbetter writers.
Do you go back and do you?
I want to say this in a waythat doesn't lead you to the.
How do you feel when you starta book after a book has released
?
Do you feel excited?
(28:04):
I don't want to lead youanymore.
How do you feel?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
So I usually try to start working on a book before
the next one is released, sothat I am in it and I have
another kind of creative outletto focus my attention.
I think the risk is and this isgoing to be a wildly unpopular
opinion among other authors, I'msure, but I read reviews and
(28:30):
I'm talking about reader reviewsLike I read Goodreads reviews.
I make sure I'm in the rightheadspace to do it.
But for me, what I enjoy aboutbeing a writer is there is this
potential to grow throughout myentire career.
I think I can consistently,hopefully, get better and better
.
I hope my next book is betterthan the last always, and so I
(28:54):
may not always agree with allthe feedback, but I can
appreciate readers' reactionsand feedback and I think it's an
important part of my growthprocess.
I think the risk is that thosevoices get in my head in the
next draft and I try to create.
I was conflating craft and Ikind of like it, but I kind of
(29:15):
like it, but whatever the word,is A novel that is a deliverable
that someone has asked for orexpected, whereas I really need
to think about what's the story.
I want to write, I can writeand capable of writing, and what
is this journey for thesecharacters?
And so I try to separate thosevoices in my head.
(29:36):
It's not always easy, but I dothink starting the project
before the book launches hasalways been really important to
me.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
You said something about letting it inform the
process and what book do youwant to write?
And that's interesting, becauseif we listen to, if fiction
writers listen to, everybody'sfeedback on what they should do
or shouldn't do, I don't thinkthey'd ever get another book
(30:04):
written, right, because it's sosubjective.
When you even said I want mynext book to be better, right, I
want it to grow.
There are plenty of authors whohave written I don't know,
let's call it 10 books, and bythe 10th book, the industry
people are like this is theworst thing she's ever written.
(30:24):
And that's not, that's just,it's art, it's subjective.
So if you ask readers well,which of this author's 10 books
is your favorite, you're goingto get a different answer.
And, by the same token, I'velong believed that if you put a
manuscript, a well-developedmanuscript, in front of 10 of
(30:48):
the air quote best editors inthe world, they're going to come
back with different feedback.
And none of it is inherentlywrong or right.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
It's just how they feel the story could better be
enhanced, yeah, and I think it'spart of being now being on my
third book I can.
There is feedback thatresonates with me and then
there's feedback that I can notdismiss but say that's not for
me, that's a more of a personalchoice, and I understand that,
(31:18):
whereas with my first book Icouldn't discern those two.
I just thought all feedback Ineeded to change and incorporate
, and so it's nice to be at thisplace and I think that just
comes with experience andknowing your writing style, your
craft, where you are in theprocess, and it will come.
It will come for everyone, itwill come.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
So you said you're taking a nap now, but also I
would assume you're working onthe next book at the same time.
I am yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It's early stages, but I am working on another love
story.
I always hesitate a little bitto call my books romances.
There is always a central lovestory, but there's always an
emotional journey that's goingalongside it.
This one is a little bit moreleaning into a mystery as well
(32:07):
that the characters are facing,and it's set both in the deep
woods of West Virginia and thenin the marbled hallways of
Washington DC.
And it's a lot of fun and I'mreally enjoying it.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
And it's a good creative outlet as I'm getting
ready to publish this book so.
I it's so.
Do you purposely think how canI challenge myself with the next
book?
Do you?
Do you purposely choosesomething that at one point, or
even maybe at that point, feelshard?
I?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
do so.
Okay.
My first book was written inthe third person, a single point
of view, a single timeline.
My second book was written inthe third person a single point
of view, a single timeline.
My second book was written inthe third person a single point
of view, but dual timelines.
And then this book was a veryintentional choice of writing in
the first person, which onceyou've read the book will be
(32:55):
clear.
But it was written in the firstperson, from dual point of
views and dual timelines.
So it was.
It was with each step.
I could not this book theSummer we Ran.
I could not have written thatas my debut.
I wasn't ready as a writer tobe there, and so I'm so happy I
(33:17):
had the other two and I thinkthose were the best books I
could have written at that timein my career, and that's always
my goal as I'm progressing along.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Do you study when you say, okay, I want to try to do
it this new way?
What is your method of learningthat?
Is it just doing, or are youreading other authors who have
done something similar?
Are you reading craft books onthat particular approach?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, I always say I didn't get my MFA from a
university.
I got my MFA from the LoudounCounty Public Library.
I like hit my they walk in andthey laugh at me because I hit
my like limit of how many booksI can check out and I did so
when I was writing.
The summer we ran I checked outa stack of books that were
written in first person and Iwanted to see like what worked
(34:03):
for me first person present,first person past.
Well, you know, I think,because I am a reader.
First, I think a lot about thereading experience.
You know, how is the pacingworking?
Is anyone going to beinterested in flipping the page?
Are they going to want to throwit across and be bored at this
point?
And so I'm always studying thatas I am reading and I'm
(34:24):
thinking you know, why am I notconnecting right now?
Is it a character issue?
Is it a plot issue?
And I'm studying that.
And then there are these greatmoments when I'm just immersed
in a story and I'm not thinkingabout it at all from a writer's
perspective.
I'm not thinking about it atall from a writer's perspective.
And then those are the booksthat I flip back to the first
(34:44):
page and I start marking up andthinking, okay, this is how they
did this, this is how theyachieved it.
So for me, reading is the bestthing I can do to improve my
craft.
It is my number one tool as awriter is reading books, and
reading very widely.
I read, you know.
I like to read fantasy becausethe world building is so amazing
(35:07):
and for me setting is criticalin my novels.
So all of my novels are set inthe real world.
But I think the world buildingand fantasy is so great and so I
want to use those tools andsetting.
I want to read above my paygrade.
I want to read great literaryfiction to kind of see how are
(35:28):
they crafting words and how arethey, you know what can?
I kind of try to suck out oftheir powers into my own.
And then I want to read, youknow thrillers, to see you know
amazing plotting.
So I really try to read acrossall genres, even though I
primarily write emotionalromance books.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
You just said something that made me think,
and for anyone who's listening,who's writing any genre fiction,
nonfiction, memoir and isfeeling stuck, you just kind of
gave what I think is a greattool that I'd never thought
about, which is, if you're stuckon your own book, is it
possible that I'm thinking aboutmyself here?
(36:12):
I'm not connected enough to mycharacters and therefore my
reader isn't going to beconnected enough.
Right, Like if you're, ifyou're truly connected to the
story that you're writing, you'dwant to go back into it as much
as I want to turn on the RealHousewives and see what's
happening with Dorit and Kyle.
(36:33):
Right, Not to out my favoritefranchise, but right it's.
If you're not into thecharacter and there are some of
the Real Housewives cities I'mnot into, I'm not into it, and
I'm not into it because I'm notinto the character.
So that's a very wieldy,unwieldy analogy.
It made me think about that,though.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, and I think sometimes I will say another
approach that I've taken that Idon't necessarily think is the
most popular, but when I'mfeeling stuck at a point in the
story there is usually somescene I'm thinking about that.
I'm just not there yet and Iwill say I'm just going to go
ahead and write that scene.
I'm going to write the one thatI can't get out of my head,
(37:16):
even though it's not the nextthing that happens in the story,
and sometimes that helps mefind the path there.
There are times that I don'twrite linear.
I will write things ahead oftime.
I might write the ending.
I know where it's going to goand I'm not quite sure what's
going to get there, and it willhelp me then backtrack into it.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I think that approach is much more common than people
think.
Oh good, yeah, I've heard itmany times, which doesn't mean
it's the best or right or any ofthose things.
I've heard it many times I'llwrite the scene that is just
there or that I'm feeling calledto write, even if it make, even
if it I have no clue yet how itfits into the overall thing.
(37:56):
And then it's just how do I getthere?
And even maybe you don't getthere, I mean, dare I say it,
maybe that is a scene fromanother book down the road and
it ends up getting pulled, butsomething is compelling you and
intriguing you about writing it,so write it.
Yeah, my favorite Well, I won'tsay it's my favorite part, but
I get excited about.
To ask every time is what areyou reading now?
(38:17):
Because this is how I justpersonally discover so many
great new books that sometimes Iput my tail between my legs
because people are like what doyou mean?
You haven't heard of him or her.
And I'm like the one youmentioned earlier Liz Moody, god
of the Woods, liz Moore yeah,it's phenomenal, I had not.
I'm trying to remember whorecommended that.
(38:38):
It was a couple episodes agoand I can't remember right now,
but I went and looked at it andfell completely in love with the
cover.
So, okay, that's a that's arecommend yeah, that's a
definite recommend.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I feel like it's been just a banner year for reading
for me so far.
Um, I read Broken Country byClaire Leslie Hall and that was
so beautiful.
It's a love story with amystery set in the English
countryside.
It was wonderful.
I also read Wild Dark Shore byCharlotte McConaughey.
(39:10):
She is one of my all-timefavorite authors.
Her book Once there Were Wolvescame out a few years back and I
just it's one I still thinkabout.
But Wild Dark Shore, I think,is even better.
It is just really a masterpiece.
And then I, since you broughtup the Real Housewives of
Beverly Hills, I'm gonna have tolike swing away from my
(39:32):
literary world and say abeautifully written but
amazingly fun, wonderful,heartwarming romance is
Courtroom Drama, nealey to body,and so it's like jury duty
meets real housewives and youwill just have the best time,
okay.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
So Nealey is a pretty good friend of mine.
Yeah, how did you meet?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Nealey.
So Nealey and I debuted thesame year and it was funny we
met because she said I'm workingon a new project and I need a
beta reader who has some legalexperience but also who would be
interested in the housewives.
And I read, I read that and Ithought is she describing me?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
I mean, this is a crazy fun full circle moment
because Neely so Neely was juston two weeks ago to talk about
courtroom drama.
It hasn't aired yet as of today, may 1st, but she and I met a
couple of years ago, rightbefore Love Buzz came out.
She reached out over Instagramor some such thing because she
(40:36):
lives in Phoenix as well.
I'm in Phoenix and we met andthe rest is history.
And it's funny.
I almost needed to call this,write the damn book already most
of the time with Neely, becauseI always talk about Neely.
Her name comes up in almostevery episode in some way, shape
or form, and at the beginningit was just funny and then it
(40:57):
started to get a little bit.
I was like, at least she knowsI'm not stalking her, but I just
think she's remarkable and sheis my critique partner for the
novel that I'm working on andshe's like Elizabeth.
Why?
Why is this?
She's such a great critiquepartner because she doesn't hold
anything back.
I just love her.
So I'm so glad you mentionedthat book, because I do not have
(41:20):
my copy yet, nealey, if you'relistening, and I can't wait to
read courtroom drama.
I read the beginning of itbecause she sent it.
I can't remember why she sentit over, but she sent it over
for something and I fellcompletely in love with the
characters when they're waitingto go into the courtroom at the
very beginning.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Damon, you're going to love it.
She's a beautiful writer, smartwoman.
I'm a big fan.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
And she's a wonderful human.
She's just fun and what you seeis what you get, and I value
that so much in people.
So, oh, I'm so excited.
You mentioned that.
Yay, well, thank you.
I cannot wait to what?
Is this out yet?
It's not out yet.
It's not Summer.
We Ran is out June 3rd.
June 3rd that's my sister'sbirthday, so easy to remember.
(42:06):
I cannot.
It's a fun day all around then.
It's a fun day all around.
I cannot wait.
So many congratulations.
I'd love to chat again when thenext one comes out or before.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I would love it as well.
This has been so much fun.
It's been so much fun.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
(42:43):
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing.
Tips and solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:11):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody, you know it'salways nice when a book cover
all by itself can transport meout of my current reality and
into one that I desire.
That's exactly what happenedwhen I opened up my copy of the
Summer we Ran by Audrey Ingram.
I'm going to regale you withthe jacket copy.
Does your past define yourdestiny?
Told through multipleperspectives rich with emotion
(01:32):
and immersive dual timelines,the Summer we Ran weaves
together a story of lost love,devastating secrets, shocking
sabotage and the painstakingdecision two people must make in
order to fulfill the futuresthey each desire.
In the summer of 1996, teenageTess Murphy's mom gave her two
rules to abide by keep quiet andstay out of trouble.
(01:54):
Her mother landed a new job asa cook at an affluent Virginia
estate and didn't want anythingto risk the opportunity.
Least of all her outspokendaughter.
Want anything to risk theopportunity, least of all her
outspoken daughter.
What no one saw coming was Tessfalling deeply in love with the
boy next door, high societyGrant Alexander.
Over a few wondrous andheat-filled months, tess and
(02:15):
Grant's love blooms soferociously.
It feels utterly impossiblethat anything can keep them
apart until tragedy strikes andthe teenagers find themselves
pained by betrayal, with littlehope to repair the damage that's
been done.
Now, two decades after theirepic teenage romance abruptly
ended in heartbreak, tess andGrant are both running for
(02:35):
governor of Virginia, wheresecrets from that summer
threatened to shatter theirfamilies, futures and the love
they once shared.
I don't know why when I firstsaw the title I was thinking it
was the summer we ran, like weran a marathon, and I was turned
on by the cover and turned offby the title.
But after talking to Audrey andalso reading this back cover
copy, I came to understand it'sthe summer we ran as in.
(02:57):
Like for politics, audrey isalso the author of A River Runs
South and the Group Trip.
She's a graduate of MiddleburyCollege and Georgetown
University Law Center and shepracticed law in Washington DC
for 15 years.
I don't really think I needmuch more of an intro for this.
She has so many great writingtips that I know you're going to
love.
As per usual, all of Audrey'sinformation is in the episode
(03:19):
notes.
I'm just going to launch rightinto the conversation.
This is your third book, right?
This is my third novel.
I'm putting it.
The people who are listeningcan't see it, but if I do video
clips they can.
I'm so in love with this cover.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Oh, thank you.
You know, the setting is alwaysreally important for me in
every book, and especially inthis one, and so I had sent my
publisher some images of thearea, because this book is set
in the Virginia countrysidewhere I live, and when they sent
me the first kind of coverdraft I was like, almost had
tears in my eyes.
I was like this is so perfect.
(03:59):
It really just you want to justdive into it.
So, thank you, I love it too.
I'm certainly partial, but I'mso glad you like it as well.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
No, I love it and great point because I think for
me, the most important thing isthat the author is in love with
her own or his own cover.
I think it's challenging orI've heard that it's challenging
to promote a book with a coverthat you don't like if you're
the author.
(04:27):
I don't know, has that everhappened with any of your books
the two prior?
It hasn't.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I've been really lucky, but I have heard the same
horror stories as you and thenumber of times authors are
holding up the book next totheir face and smiling and I
can't imagine if I was doingthat and internally cringing at
the same time.
I feel very fortunate.
I have loved all of my covers.
I will say I'm very partial tothis one.
It might be my very favorite,and so it's wonderful.
(04:57):
I'm so excited to show it off.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
It's so and it's so bright it just makes me want to.
It's funny because when I firstsaw it, there are the flowers
at the bottom.
The first thing I saw wasraspberries.
I don't know why.
It probably was Freudian and Ithought I this is so weird, but
I thought I want to be in Napadrinking wine and eating
raspberries.
As I read this, and I don'tdrink wine and I don't go to
Napa, so I'm not.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
It's giving you those summer vibes, which is exactly
is.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, it totally is so, being three books in now.
One thing that I'm enjoyingasking people who have written
books previously or been in thisspace for a long time, even if
they haven't yet published,which you have is what's
something that it's sort of likeif you could pay it forward
with not advice but a suggestion.
(05:45):
What's something that you wouldsay to maybe your younger self
or to someone coming into thespace for the first time I don't
even know if it's fair to sayto your younger self anymore,
because so much has changed, butsomeone who's coming into the
space for the first time andjust feeling overwhelmed and
terrified.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Yeah, first I want to give you a hug because we all
authors have felt overwhelmedand terrified.
But I will also say that thisis one of my favorite parts of
this business is how collegialit really is, which is strange
to say, because you're mostlysitting by yourself in front of
your computer inventing thesestories, but really at the end
(06:27):
of the day you are working,hopefully hand in hand with your
editor and then with the teamat your publisher, and then
reaching out to your authorfriends and sharing drafts with
them and then cheering eachother on.
It really is that old adage ofa rising tide lifts all boats,
and that's so true in thisindustry.
And I will say I think with mydebut I was a little bit nervous
(06:51):
about reaching out to otherdebut authors and I would just
say don't be, you're all.
Whether you got a six-figuredeal or you're self-publishing,
you're all starting off at thesame point.
Your self-publishing, you're allstarting off at the same point.
And really, you know I'm onlythree books in, but I've already
seen none of that stuff reallymatters as far as the trajectory
(07:16):
of your career.
I've seen authors that had hugefirst deals that still haven't
put out another book and I'veseen authors that had teeny tiny
deals that now are, you know,celebrity book club picks, and
so really you're all startingout at the same point and
forming those closerelationships with other authors
in your debut year is sorewarding and then also so
critical.
(07:36):
They are your colleagues and Iwould treat them as such, treat
them with respect, but you alsoget to talk about books, which
you all obviously all love.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah Well, I think it's interesting because the
industry the book publishingindustry sort of has a
reputation for being verycutthroat, very competitive and,
in some cases, very catty inits competitiveness.
I think to your point, it's oneof the most lovely.
(08:06):
I've met some of the mostlovely people.
I have found other authors,fellow authors, to be so
generous and helpful andencouraging and kind.
So maybe it's just when youwere first getting started
remind me what year your debutcame out.
(08:26):
I was 2023, september of 2023.
Okay, so when you, when thatwas, gosh, that's a, that's
three books in two, all right,we got to talk about that,
heading off with someraspberries and something.
So when you were first gettingstarted and you felt like, oh my
(08:47):
gosh, I don't want to.
It feels uncomfortable to reachout to people, et cetera, how
quickly did you realize or didyou have any experiences that
made you say otherwise?
You know that was it always so?
Welcoming is kind of what I'masking.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
It was, and I think that was all in my head.
I think what happened was I hada couple of authors who have
become good friends reach outand say we've written similar
books, we're launching aroundthe same time, do you want to do
an event together?
And I thought, oh, how fun,cause I was so nervous about
reaching out to bookstores to doevents and you're helping me
and you really do benefit fromthat shared experience.
(09:25):
And then you find you find theauthors who write similar books
to you and then you startexchanging drafts or
brainstorming plot ideas and itreally does become this really
collaborative environment that Iwas scared to enter into.
And I think part of that isjust imposter syndrome.
Like, am I a real author, am Inot?
You're probably a real author,but I'm not.
(09:46):
And I had to get over that.
And I was lucky that I had somepeople who were just braver
than me and reached out and thenthat gave me the bravery to
reach out to other people aswell.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
I do find that there's less of a competitive
it's me or you and more of a itcould be me and you, like.
You know it's not this sense ofthey're going to buy your.
If they buy your book, they'renot going to buy my book.
It's kind of you're going toenjoy both of these books, so
just buy them both together.
And I love that because I don'tthink we find that in a lot of
(10:17):
other.
You know, not professionalspaces, but where people are
trying to sell something.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, and I think that's the wonderful thing about
the reading community is, oncethey find one author they enjoy,
they want to hear who else doyou enjoy, whose books do you
find similar to, and then I wantto read them.
So it really is.
You know, I don't.
I don't find that if somebodypicks another author, they're
picking their book over mine.
It is there's.
We are such we are at afortunate time as readers that
(10:46):
there is an abundance of amazingliterature coming out.
Every time I step foot into abookstore I think how lucky am I
that my book is one of all ofthese.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
How lucky am I that a reader even found it.
Yeah, it's unbelievable.
Yeah, I'm like protect thechecking account.
That's what I say when I walkinto the bookstore, because it's
bad.
I mean, there's unbelievable.
Yeah, I'm like protect thechecking account.
That's what I say when I walkinto the bookstore, because it's
bad.
I mean, there's just itsupports the libraries.
How oh libraries Sing it?
Yes, I just got an email theother day that my local library
now has an app and I thought,well, I just assumed all
(11:20):
libraries had an app, butapparently not my mind and I got
so excited.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
It's wonderful Like yay for you.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Okay, so I'd love to talk about your writing process,
since you've done so many in ashort period of time and you
said something.
I wrote it down venting thestories which I haven't heard
before.
Tell me about your process,because you're a practicing.
Are you still a practicing?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
attorney.
I am not.
So my journey was I was apracticing attorney at a law
practice in Washington DC andthen, and for a while, I had
been feeling, you know, a littlebit burned out.
I had three young children.
I was a partner at a law firm.
It was, it was just a lot, andthen the pandemic hit and it
became a whole lot like for alot of families who were trying
(12:05):
to figure this all out.
So my firm let me take a leaveof absence and I was used to
waking up very early in themorning to commute into the city
I live in Virginia and I justused that time to start writing.
And so it was.
I was a pandemic careerswitcher who turned a
stay-at-home mom and then wrotea book, and so it's really been
(12:27):
just a dream for me to be ableto kind of make that switch.
So I am not practicing now.
Now I am just being a mom andbeing a writer, which is a joy
to say.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Right, I think that's what so many people aspire to
and get there, if and when theyget there, because everyone has
a different circumstance, and I,you know, I was talking to Jane
Friedman a couple of weeks ago,who's just so delightful and so
knowledgeable and what she wassaying so helpful for writers.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I mean so generous with her knowledge.
It's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
It's really incredible and she made a really
great and it was an obviouspoint, but I don't think it's
something that people talk aboutenough, which is that the vast
majority of writers have asecondary source of income,
whether it's a partner or alarge savings account or some
(13:22):
other work that they do, whetherit's in the writing realm or
not.
I mean, sometimes people go outand they do something during
the day that has nothing to dowith writing and it's not a mark
of and I'm putting the airquotes failure or I'm not really
a writer if you aren't writingfull time.
And yet for people who can, thepeople who I've talked to, who
(13:45):
are able to do that for whatevervariety of reasons, are so
grateful.
Like they recognize and I cansee that in your face like that
you recognize that gift.
Would it be fair to say a gift?
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Oh, a thousand percent a gift.
And I think you know there arewriters I admire so much.
Liz Moore comes to theforefront of my mind.
She just wrote God of the Woodsand she said you know I, she
teaches as well.
And she says I tell my studentsI write and I have another job
and you will as well, mostlikely.
And I think it is this kind ofmisconception in the industry
(14:22):
that almost everyone gets a bookdeal and then that becomes
their full time income and it'snot the case by a stretch.
I am very fortunate the waythings have fallen into place
for me and it does.
It feels a thousand percentlike a gift every day that I get
to have this pursuit that is sofulfilling for me and also have
(14:43):
the time with my family, whichwas something I felt a lot of
guilt about for a long time, andI even felt a lot of guilt
about leaving behind my legalcareer, and what did that mean
as an example for my daughter,for other women, and I had to
let go of that and really enjoythis moment of my life and the
fulfillment it's bringing mepersonally.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
That's interesting.
What I mean.
Can you say a little bit moreabout that?
Because I would innately Idon't know if innately is the
right word, but my initialthought would be oh, this is so
empowering.
I too have daughters.
It'd be so empowering for mydaughters to say I'm leaving
this and I'm pursuing this.
I'm not settling, I'm pursuingthis new love.
(15:25):
It's not necessarily areplacement, do you think?
Did the financial realm of thatcome in a little bit where?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I think it's so interesting that you frame it
that way about how you wouldshare that story with your
daughters.
I think for me I had gone tolaw school and had pursued a
legal career and I just feltlike this identity of being a
career woman was so personal tome and I was in a position where
(15:54):
I was mentoring a lot of juniorfemale associates and that I
thought, was, you know, just soimportant.
And I thought what kind ofexample am I showing to them if
I say I don't feel like I'mgetting enough time with my kids
?
I want to be home with mychildren more?
Is that setting us back infeminism?
And I think it took a reallyimportant conversation I had
(16:15):
with my mother where she said ifyour daughter was coming to you
and saying there's this thing Ilove, that I want to do, but
I'm not going to do it because Ithink society expects me to do
something else, would you tellher that's feminism?
Would you tell her that's theright decision?
And it totally shifted myframing that you know, feminism
(16:36):
is the choice.
And if I was staying insomething because I felt it was
an obligation and an expectation, I wasn't making that choice.
And what kind of example do Ireally want to provide for my
daughter?
And making that leap that feltat the time.
You know, a working parent withthree kids like this is so
irresponsible.
(16:57):
But for our family we made itwork and it has a thousand
percent been the right choice.
And I think you know my husband, my children, all of us really
feel like it's just improved allof our lives and I'm so
grateful for it.
But it was a very scary thingand a thing I felt a lot of
guilt about.
But I think all big decisionsin life can feel like that.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
And I hear that word a lot irresponsible.
I also heard it from myself fora long time.
It would be irresponsible to dothis.
I have five kids, so I have allthese kids to manage, or
whatever.
It would be irresponsible.
My hat is off to you.
Well, I don't.
I've lost my mind quite sometime ago.
(17:39):
They're all getting older.
Now the youngest is 17.
So, god willing, they all arestarting to do their own thing
here.
Does some, do some of thesethemes make their way into?
I know the summer we ran has alot of sort of co-mingling,
interconnected themes.
There's a lot going on.
There's multiple point of viewthis is what's the word I want
(18:02):
to use Complicated right, it iscomplicated, and I can't wait to
see how you navigate all this.
Was that?
Do the themes work their way inin that way, like the women's,
and what choices are we making?
And yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
And so the summer we ran is about first loves turned
political rivals and it is toldin two timelines the summer they
fall in love as teenagers andthen, 25 years later, when they
are both running to becomegovernor of Virginia and so on
face value it is a veryemotional love story and I think
(18:41):
all of those complicatedrelationships so between the
people we love, whether it's aparent and child, whether it's a
spouse, whether it's a lostlove, those are the
relationships that I enjoyreading and I also clearly enjoy
writing about.
And I think, although there isno relationship in my life, that
(19:04):
is exactly like the stories Iwrite.
I'm constantly pulling fromthose feelings of what does it
mean to be a career woman today?
And conversations I've had withformer colleagues about the
pressure they feel to havechildren or not have children,
to even justify thoseexplanations, those questions.
I think being a woman intoday's society is a very
(19:27):
complicated assignment and Ilove exploring that in all
capacities, the relationships wehave and also the relationships
with ourself and how we viewourselves, how kind we are to
ourselves and how hard we are onourselves, and those are
certainly themes that come outin this novel.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Do you, when you're writing, sometimes have to not
take a break from the writing,necessarily, but do you ever
stop and go like, what do Ithink about that, you know, and
so that's what kind of goingback to when you said venting
onto the page, which can mean avariety of different things, but
do you sometimes find that youuse your writing to write your
(20:10):
way into your understanding ofyourself or a better
understanding of maybe someoneelse in your life who's gone
through something that'sinfluenced or inspired your
writing?
Speaker 2 (20:21):
A thousand percent.
There are days when I finishwriting and I think, wow, that
was a therapy session because Ihave been a lifelong journaler.
So I think I process my lifeand my emotions through writing
and I will sometimes consciously, sometimes subconsciously, be
in a character and be processingthese things that have happened
(20:43):
to me or impacted me or I havehad questions about in other
people's lives, and I will writethrough it and really come out
of the other side thinking Ididn't expect that and I think
that's fun about writing is yousurprise yourself sometimes.
But boy, did I learn somethingthrough that process.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
I find that part fascinating and I don't know
what other word to use besidesthat.
I think you nailed it when yousaid wow, that was a therapy
session.
I think for some people itstops them Because, especially
if they're working on theirfirst book, they that's when the
imposter syndrome really comesin, because they think, oh my
(21:21):
God, I don't know thesecharacters, I don't know this
story.
I think for pantsers it'seasier than for plotters,
because pantsers expect this iswhat I'm here, I'm kind of a
plantser, but when you're, youknow, when you're a pantser, you
, it's like you wake up everyday and go, well, it's going to
happen today.
But when you're a plotter andyou've lined it all out and then
(21:42):
something shows up that'sunexpected, I hear that people
say, oh, I started to questionwhether I really knew where the
story was going and then I gotstuck.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, and that to me is one of the hardest parts of
my transition from my legalcareer to my writing career are
the inherent inefficiencies.
And it used to drive me crazy,I would say, because I was
someone.
When you're a lawyer, you haveto account for six minute
increments of your day and writethem down, and there are days
(22:13):
when I write and I think theonly thing I got out of this
writing session is one sentencethat I like, but at the end of
the day, that is one sentenceforward, and even if it was
deleting, that is still progress.
And so I've had to, in my mind,reframe what is efficiency,
because in a creative process itis not linear linear, and I
(22:37):
have now gotten joy in that thatI can play and have fun and it
does not have to be a certainnumber of words ticked off every
day in order to have been anefficient writing day.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Do you write every day?
Speaker 2 (22:50):
It depends.
When I am doing a first draft,I find that I have to be in the
story every day or I lose thatmomentum.
But now with book three thereis a juggling act a little bit.
You're doing different thingsat different times, so I may not
be in my current drafting storyevery day, Unfortunately.
(23:10):
I would love to be the writingdays in sweatpants, messy hair,
no makeup.
Those are my very favorite days, but they aren't every day,
unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Are you someone who rushes to the end of a first
draft?
Is that meaning?
Is your goal to just get thedamn thing on the page and then
start fixing it, or are you amore thoughtful?
What's your and that may change.
I mean, it can change rightFrom book to book.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, it can certainly change For me, at
least in these three books Ihave been.
Once I start writing the draft,I'm pretty dedicated and
consistent and I try to finishit in 12 weeks.
So I try to finish our firstdraft in 12 weeks.
That's the time that reallyworks for me of putting down
those words every day.
That's the time that reallyworks for me of, you know,
(23:57):
putting down those words everyday.
But the part I really enjoy andwhere I think my books become
real books is the editingprocess, and that, to me, is fun
, because you're pulling thingsapart, you're putting things
back together, You're reallytrying to experience it as a
reader would and thinkingthrough is the pacing right in
this?
Is this a choice the characterwould really make?
That's what I think is thedifference.
(24:17):
When I was first starting outwith my debut, I thought, oh,
getting the first draft out,that's the hardest part, right
Spoiler?
It's not, at least not for me.
The real work is in the editingand the drafts, and for all of
my books they've gone throughseveral drafts with just me
before they go off to my actualeditor.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Well, that's what I was going to ask.
Do you then, do you move, doyou do any kind of beta process
with people, or do you have acritique partner before it goes
to your editor?
What's your process for thatnow?
Speaker 2 (24:49):
So I have for every book.
I have three readers that Isend drafts to.
The first one is always my mom,who is a voracious reader, and
she will say this is so great, Ilove it, Even when it's a trash
draft.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
So she's your alpha reader, she's the she is my
alpha reader.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, and you.
But I think I always tellwriters it's so important to
have that person and and it'snot always like it may not be
your mom, it may be someone thatyou don't really know that well
, that can just be yourcheerleader but you're like this
is awesome, Even though it'sreally not, yeah, yeah.
So I always send it to her andand it's not a useless process
(25:29):
because she will tell me thethings that are really working
and so I can really lean intothose.
She will say, oh, this momentwas great.
And I'll think, oh well, let mesee if I can enhance that or
pull more of those things.
So that's always really helpful.
My sister is my second readerand she is just the most
(25:50):
emotionally intelligent personI've ever met and she can tell
me this does not make sense, aperson wouldn't do this, or why.
Why she really?
She helps me build mycharacters in a way I can't see
through just my lens, and sothat is so important.
And then the third person is agood friend who reads more books
(26:13):
than I think is humanlypossible and she just really has
her finger on the market andwhat people are doing and she
can say I felt like this was aplot hole or I felt like this
was merging genres too much, orshe gives me some real feedback,
and those are always the firstthree people that read it, and
then I usually will go through acouple more drafts after that.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
But are they doing it at the same time?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I'm sorry.
Yeah, I said it at the sametime.
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
I just think it's.
You know, so often when,especially when people are
working on their first books,they think that the, like you
said, the writing is the hardpart, and then the editing is
going to take five minutes.
Right, someone's just gonna dosome copy edits and move
something, but it really is at.
To me anyway, it's at least 50of the process yeah, sometimes
(27:02):
it's more like 70 yeah, I thinkyou're exactly right.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
which is hard and look, I don't think new
novelists need to know that likeyou.
Just it's like how do you eatan elephant one bite a time?
So just take your one bite anddo that, and then you can think
about the next things.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
And I think that adage, you know, journey of a
thousand miles begins with asingle step.
You know, eat an elephant onebite at a time.
Those things hold true and aretrue and are used because they
make perfect sense.
I mean it's, you know, it'slike a little kid trying to eat
broccoli, just one bite at atime.
Just the collaborative part ofit and not and seeing what you
(27:43):
didn't see, where your blindspots were.
I think it's what makes usbetter writers.
Do you go back and do you?
I want to say this in a waythat doesn't lead you to the.
How do you feel when you starta book after a book has released
?
Do you feel excited?
(28:04):
I don't want to lead youanymore.
How do you feel?
Speaker 2 (28:07):
So I usually try to start working on a book before
the next one is released, sothat I am in it and I have
another kind of creative outletto focus my attention.
I think the risk is and this isgoing to be a wildly unpopular
opinion among other authors, I'msure, but I read reviews and
(28:30):
I'm talking about reader reviewsLike I read Goodreads reviews.
I make sure I'm in the rightheadspace to do it.
But for me, what I enjoy aboutbeing a writer is there is this
potential to grow throughout myentire career.
I think I can consistently,hopefully, get better and better
.
I hope my next book is betterthan the last always, and so I
(28:54):
may not always agree with allthe feedback, but I can
appreciate readers' reactionsand feedback and I think it's an
important part of my growthprocess.
I think the risk is that thosevoices get in my head in the
next draft and I try to create.
I was conflating craft and Ikind of like it, but I kind of
(29:15):
like it, but whatever the word,is A novel that is a deliverable
that someone has asked for orexpected, whereas I really need
to think about what's the story.
I want to write, I can writeand capable of writing, and what
is this journey for thesecharacters?
And so I try to separate thosevoices in my head.
(29:36):
It's not always easy, but I dothink starting the project
before the book launches hasalways been really important to
me.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
You said something about letting it inform the
process and what book do youwant to write?
And that's interesting, becauseif we listen to, if fiction
writers listen to, everybody'sfeedback on what they should do
or shouldn't do, I don't thinkthey'd ever get another book
(30:04):
written, right, because it's sosubjective.
When you even said I want mynext book to be better, right, I
want it to grow.
There are plenty of authors whohave written I don't know,
let's call it 10 books, and bythe 10th book, the industry
people are like this is theworst thing she's ever written.
(30:24):
And that's not, that's just,it's art, it's subjective.
So if you ask readers well,which of this author's 10 books
is your favorite, you're goingto get a different answer.
And, by the same token, I'velong believed that if you put a
manuscript, a well-developedmanuscript, in front of 10 of
(30:48):
the air quote best editors inthe world, they're going to come
back with different feedback.
And none of it is inherentlywrong or right.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
It's just how they feel the story could better be
enhanced, yeah, and I think it'spart of being now being on my
third book I can.
There is feedback thatresonates with me and then
there's feedback that I can notdismiss but say that's not for
me, that's a more of a personalchoice, and I understand that,
(31:18):
whereas with my first book Icouldn't discern those two.
I just thought all feedback Ineeded to change and incorporate
, and so it's nice to be at thisplace and I think that just
comes with experience andknowing your writing style, your
craft, where you are in theprocess, and it will come.
It will come for everyone, itwill come.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
So you said you're taking a nap now, but also I
would assume you're working onthe next book at the same time.
I am yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
It's early stages, but I am working on another love
story.
I always hesitate a little bitto call my books romances.
There is always a central lovestory, but there's always an
emotional journey that's goingalongside it.
This one is a little bit moreleaning into a mystery as well
(32:07):
that the characters are facing,and it's set both in the deep
woods of West Virginia and thenin the marbled hallways of
Washington DC.
And it's a lot of fun and I'mreally enjoying it.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
And it's a good creative outlet as I'm getting
ready to publish this book so.
I it's so.
Do you purposely think how canI challenge myself with the next
book?
Do you?
Do you purposely choosesomething that at one point, or
even maybe at that point, feelshard?
I?
Speaker 2 (32:34):
do so.
Okay.
My first book was written inthe third person, a single point
of view, a single timeline.
My second book was written inthe third person a single point
of view, a single timeline.
My second book was written inthe third person a single point
of view, but dual timelines.
And then this book was a veryintentional choice of writing in
the first person, which onceyou've read the book will be
(32:55):
clear.
But it was written in the firstperson, from dual point of
views and dual timelines.
So it was.
It was with each step.
I could not this book theSummer we Ran.
I could not have written thatas my debut.
I wasn't ready as a writer tobe there, and so I'm so happy I
(33:17):
had the other two and I thinkthose were the best books I
could have written at that timein my career, and that's always
my goal as I'm progressing along.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Do you study when you say, okay, I want to try to do
it this new way?
What is your method of learningthat?
Is it just doing, or are youreading other authors who have
done something similar?
Are you reading craft books onthat particular approach?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yeah, I always say I didn't get my MFA from a
university.
I got my MFA from the LoudounCounty Public Library.
I like hit my they walk in andthey laugh at me because I hit
my like limit of how many booksI can check out and I did so
when I was writing.
The summer we ran I checked outa stack of books that were
written in first person and Iwanted to see like what worked
(34:03):
for me first person present,first person past.
Well, you know, I think,because I am a reader.
First, I think a lot about thereading experience.
You know, how is the pacingworking?
Is anyone going to beinterested in flipping the page?
Are they going to want to throwit across and be bored at this
point?
And so I'm always studying thatas I am reading and I'm
(34:24):
thinking you know, why am I notconnecting right now?
Is it a character issue?
Is it a plot issue?
And I'm studying that.
And then there are these greatmoments when I'm just immersed
in a story and I'm not thinkingabout it at all from a writer's
perspective.
I'm not thinking about it atall from a writer's perspective.
And then those are the booksthat I flip back to the first
(34:44):
page and I start marking up andthinking, okay, this is how they
did this, this is how theyachieved it.
So for me, reading is the bestthing I can do to improve my
craft.
It is my number one tool as awriter is reading books, and
reading very widely.
I read, you know.
I like to read fantasy becausethe world building is so amazing
(35:07):
and for me setting is criticalin my novels.
So all of my novels are set inthe real world.
But I think the world buildingand fantasy is so great and so I
want to use those tools andsetting.
I want to read above my paygrade.
I want to read great literaryfiction to kind of see how are
(35:28):
they crafting words and how arethey, you know what can?
I kind of try to suck out oftheir powers into my own.
And then I want to read, youknow thrillers, to see you know
amazing plotting.
So I really try to read acrossall genres, even though I
primarily write emotionalromance books.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
You just said something that made me think,
and for anyone who's listening,who's writing any genre fiction,
nonfiction, memoir and isfeeling stuck, you just kind of
gave what I think is a greattool that I'd never thought
about, which is, if you're stuckon your own book, is it
possible that I'm thinking aboutmyself here?
(36:12):
I'm not connected enough to mycharacters and therefore my
reader isn't going to beconnected enough.
Right, Like if you're, ifyou're truly connected to the
story that you're writing, you'dwant to go back into it as much
as I want to turn on the RealHousewives and see what's
happening with Dorit and Kyle.
(36:33):
Right, Not to out my favoritefranchise, but right it's.
If you're not into thecharacter and there are some of
the Real Housewives cities I'mnot into, I'm not into it, and
I'm not into it because I'm notinto the character.
So that's a very wieldy,unwieldy analogy.
It made me think about that,though.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, and I think sometimes I will say another
approach that I've taken that Idon't necessarily think is the
most popular, but when I'mfeeling stuck at a point in the
story there is usually somescene I'm thinking about that.
I'm just not there yet and Iwill say I'm just going to go
ahead and write that scene.
I'm going to write the one thatI can't get out of my head,
(37:16):
even though it's not the nextthing that happens in the story,
and sometimes that helps mefind the path there.
There are times that I don'twrite linear.
I will write things ahead oftime.
I might write the ending.
I know where it's going to goand I'm not quite sure what's
going to get there, and it willhelp me then backtrack into it.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I think that approach is much more common than people
think.
Oh good, yeah, I've heard itmany times, which doesn't mean
it's the best or right or any ofthose things.
I've heard it many times I'llwrite the scene that is just
there or that I'm feeling calledto write, even if it make, even
if it I have no clue yet how itfits into the overall thing.
(37:56):
And then it's just how do I getthere?
And even maybe you don't getthere, I mean, dare I say it,
maybe that is a scene fromanother book down the road and
it ends up getting pulled, butsomething is compelling you and
intriguing you about writing it,so write it.
Yeah, my favorite Well, I won'tsay it's my favorite part, but
I get excited about.
To ask every time is what areyou reading now?
(38:17):
Because this is how I justpersonally discover so many
great new books that sometimes Iput my tail between my legs
because people are like what doyou mean?
You haven't heard of him or her.
And I'm like the one youmentioned earlier Liz Moody, god
of the Woods, liz Moore yeah,it's phenomenal, I had not.
I'm trying to remember whorecommended that.
(38:38):
It was a couple episodes agoand I can't remember right now,
but I went and looked at it andfell completely in love with the
cover.
So, okay, that's a that's arecommend yeah, that's a
definite recommend.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I feel like it's been just a banner year for reading
for me so far.
Um, I read Broken Country byClaire Leslie Hall and that was
so beautiful.
It's a love story with amystery set in the English
countryside.
It was wonderful.
I also read Wild Dark Shore byCharlotte McConaughey.
(39:10):
She is one of my all-timefavorite authors.
Her book Once there Were Wolvescame out a few years back and I
just it's one I still thinkabout.
But Wild Dark Shore, I think,is even better.
It is just really a masterpiece.
And then I, since you broughtup the Real Housewives of
Beverly Hills, I'm gonna have tolike swing away from my
(39:32):
literary world and say abeautifully written but
amazingly fun, wonderful,heartwarming romance is
Courtroom Drama, nealey to body,and so it's like jury duty
meets real housewives and youwill just have the best time,
okay.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
So Nealey is a pretty good friend of mine.
Yeah, how did you meet?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Nealey.
So Nealey and I debuted thesame year and it was funny we
met because she said I'm workingon a new project and I need a
beta reader who has some legalexperience but also who would be
interested in the housewives.
And I read, I read that and Ithought is she describing me?
Speaker 1 (40:16):
I mean, this is a crazy fun full circle moment
because Neely so Neely was juston two weeks ago to talk about
courtroom drama.
It hasn't aired yet as of today, may 1st, but she and I met a
couple of years ago, rightbefore Love Buzz came out.
She reached out over Instagramor some such thing because she
(40:36):
lives in Phoenix as well.
I'm in Phoenix and we met andthe rest is history.
And it's funny.
I almost needed to call this,write the damn book already most
of the time with Neely, becauseI always talk about Neely.
Her name comes up in almostevery episode in some way, shape
or form, and at the beginningit was just funny and then it
(40:57):
started to get a little bit.
I was like, at least she knowsI'm not stalking her, but I just
think she's remarkable and sheis my critique partner for the
novel that I'm working on andshe's like Elizabeth.
Why?
Why is this?
She's such a great critiquepartner because she doesn't hold
anything back.
I just love her.
So I'm so glad you mentionedthat book, because I do not have
(41:20):
my copy yet, nealey, if you'relistening, and I can't wait to
read courtroom drama.
I read the beginning of itbecause she sent it.
I can't remember why she sentit over, but she sent it over
for something and I fellcompletely in love with the
characters when they're waitingto go into the courtroom at the
very beginning.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Damon, you're going to love it.
She's a beautiful writer, smartwoman.
I'm a big fan.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
And she's a wonderful human.
She's just fun and what you seeis what you get, and I value
that so much in people.
So, oh, I'm so excited.
You mentioned that.
Yay, well, thank you.
I cannot wait to what?
Is this out yet?
It's not out yet.
It's not Summer.
We Ran is out June 3rd.
June 3rd that's my sister'sbirthday, so easy to remember.
(42:06):
I cannot.
It's a fun day all around then.
It's a fun day all around.
I cannot wait.
So many congratulations.
I'd love to chat again when thenext one comes out or before.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
I would love it as well.
This has been so much fun.
It's been so much fun.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
(42:43):
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
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