Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than
absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:12):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome toepisode 125 of Write the Damn
Book.
Already, I cannot believe we'vegotten to 125.
Back when I was at three, Ithought, oh my God, will I ever
make it to 20?
And here we are.
I have been following JaneFriedman for years.
I've been a subscriber to herHot Sheet newsletter, which is
now the bottom line, as well asElectric Speed, which comes out,
I think I want to say every twoweeks, but it might be once a
(01:34):
month.
It always has the bestresources and the best tips, not
always even related to writing.
I don't think there's ever beenan issue.
I haven't learned about a newresource, and everyone I talk to
when I bring up Jane everyonesays the same thing.
She's just such a gift to thewriting and publishing community
(01:58):
.
There's something about herdemeanor that is so calming to
me.
Maybe I should ask her to puttogether like a meditation app
or something, and herperspective on the industry.
I think one of the reasons thatshe's so calming to me, and
always has been, is because, aswe talk about in the interview,
she's not a pendulum swinger.
She really stays.
(02:18):
She's incredibly optimistic,but not in a Pollyanna kind of
way.
She stays very close to center,so she doesn't swing left and
right with the trends.
She's very good about knowingwhat people are talking about,
but she doesn't have thisapproach that's like oh my God,
everyone, stop everything andrun over here.
(02:40):
Okay, now stop everything andrun over here, which I love,
because I don't like runningmetaphorically or literally.
So I was beyond thrilled whenshe agreed to come on and chat
about what is going on now inthe publishing space.
Ai is always a big right nowtopic of conversation and it was
(03:00):
great to get her insights onthat, and it wasn't a big shock
that when we finished theinterview, I just felt really
light and excited.
To get back to what I do, if youare not following Jane or if
this is the first time you'rehearing of Jane, all of her
contact info is in the episodenotes so that you can follow her
out on Instagram, subscribe toher newsletters and also benefit
(03:23):
for her incredible informationand way of delivering it.
So, without further ado, let ushop into the conversation.
I think I've got it here and Idon't know how much of this will
be video or not, but the onlybook I might have that will end
up being as marked up I mean,jane, I'm only in chapter five
(03:46):
and you could see all the isTiffany Yates Martins, the
intuitive editor.
Her book is so color coded andit's funny because hers my
post-it notes, are really thesame color scheme as her cover,
so it looks like it's allintentional.
But so I have a lot ofquestions.
One of the things that I wouldlove to ask you you'd be willing
(04:08):
to chat about I haven't heardyou talk a lot and perhaps you
have, and I just haven't heardit but how you got into the
space.
So I'm one.
I'm curious.
I know that you were an editorand you worked with a mid-sized
publisher.
You were a professor.
Um was this?
Did you study?
Was your study in school?
Was it writing, creativewriting or?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
It was Okay, and so
from there, you went out like I.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Just I'd personally
love to learn a little bit more
about that, if you're open tosharing that.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Sure, I mean the fact
I got a writing degree and a
master's in English there's.
I don't think there's anythingspecial or unusual about that
story.
I was like any other writingstudent.
But maybe what set me down thepath that I'm on now is I got
really interested in doingpublications work when I was in
college.
(04:58):
So I worked on the newspaperand the literary journal.
I interned for a really smallmilitary publisher as well Not
glamorous work, but it was justreally gritty in the trenches,
to use a military metaphorpublishing work.
So I ended up getting aninternship while I was still in
(05:20):
college at a book publishingcompany, which is where I spent
most of my traditionalpublishing years.
But frankly, I could have endedup in a lot of other places.
I applied to countlessinternships and they were the
first ones to say yes and tooffer me money, which was really
important.
So I ended up working for thatcompany once I graduated and
(05:42):
that, just like it, reallydropped me into the deep end of
the business of publishing and Iended up moving around quite a
bit in that company.
I ended up with Writer's Digest.
Most of the people at that timewho were at Writer's Digest had
about zero interest on thebusiness side, but I enjoyed it
(06:03):
and so that kind of became partof my specialty, along with
digital media, self-publishing,and you know, whenever I would
speak at conferences, it's whereI felt most sure-footed.
I didn't really want to talkabout the craft and I wasn't
writing fiction or poetry of myown anyway, even though I had
done that in college and I justfelt like who am I to tell you
(06:23):
people how to write your book?
I know what all the advice says, but I am not an authority and
you probably shouldn't listen tome, so I really tried to stay
away from giving advice on thatfront.
But I had a lot to say aboutthe business and about digital
media.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
And, over all of
these years, what has kept you
interested and continuing togrow more fascinated and curious
.
And I'm putting words in yourmouth, so I'm making an
assumption there and correct meif I'm wrong.
But as opposed to saying man,this is just, I don't want to be
part of this space anymoreBecause it's changed so much.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
It has.
I mean, I've always leaned morein an optimistic direction,
uh-huh, and I also have a verypragmatic rational.
I would say cool-headed, takeon things that are happening.
I think some of that's just mynature, and I also think there
are so many bad messages aboutthe environment and the changes,
(07:24):
and by bad I mean they'remisinformed, they're over the
top, they're emotion driven,they're not looking at the
bigger picture, the long term.
I mean some of this, I don'tknow, feels like reflective of
the time that we're living inmore broadly.
Agreed feels like reflective ofthe time that we're living in,
(07:45):
more broadly Agreed, but I muchprefer to like remain calm and
help people understand theirposition and how to make
progress given their strengths,what they want to accomplish.
Like it's, it is never as badas people say it is, and I think
ever since I've been in thebusiness, I mean I think this is
particularly true of creativeprofessions.
Generally, everyone iscelebrating how good it used to
(08:08):
be and there's something alittle tiresome about that.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
For me.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
I don't like to just
have continual nostalgia for the
way it used to be, and I thinkthere are a lot of exciting
opportunities that exist todaythat weren't available when I
entered the business, and sothat does create some confusion
and anxiety because people areworried they might do the wrong
thing or they don't know if it'sgoing to work out or whatever.
(08:34):
But I would much rather havetoday's industry than the 1995
industry.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Well, and I've often
said I've not, I've never been
traditionally published.
It's not for lack of trying.
Early in my career, like backin the early 2000s is when I
published my first book and Iwas of the generation, if you
will, where with my query letter, we sent postcards that you
know right, like do you rememberthis?
(09:02):
Not to age, both of us, butwhere the agent would check yes,
or like I'd like to see more orno, I'm not interested, and
then I'd put little lines forthem to give feedback, and then
I wish I had kept them and youhave a bit in.
You know the business of beinga writer, which I just every
(09:22):
author I feel needs this book ontheir nightstand, like I, along
with the intuitive editor.
Those are the.
If somebody said to me what arethe two books?
And also be listening to theshit no one tells you about
writing the podcast, I mean, ifyou just have three resources,
they're so helpful because youknow I you say something about
keeping like a file of all ofyour rejections, and another
(09:45):
author I had spoken with quite awhile ago but I just adore Emma
Gray talked about the law of100 rejections and how she was
striving to get to 100.
I wish I had kept thosepostcards, jane, because the
number of some of them, themajority of them, just never
came back right.
You put your little stamp on itand it was lost.
At the time, 29 cents, I don'tknow why.
(10:06):
I remember that number.
Some of them came back justwith a big X on the back, some
of them just said no, with asharpie big N-O exclamation
point, and it was just.
You know, that was my firstforay into the traditional world
and there was another foraywhich I won't get into was my
first foray into the traditionalworld and there was another
foray which I won't get into.
But yes, I am someone whocelebrates the new opportunities
(10:27):
because I think without them, alot of people wouldn't be able
to pursue the dream, the goal,the hobby.
However you want to say it,right.
But you said something thatmade me really recognize the
value I have and have had foryou over the years, which is
you're not a pendulum thatswings way left and way right.
(10:49):
You haven't been that for aslong as I've been listening to
you and following you.
You stay very it's a verycalming, grounded feeling of
okay, let's stay in the truth ofwhat all this is as opposed to
today we're selling this andtomorrow we're selling this, and
SEO is dead and email is deadand platforms are dead, and I
(11:13):
love that you have at thebeginning of the book it's not a
quote, but I'm quoting a coupleof words.
That says navigate the tensionbetween art and business, and I
think you do that better thanperhaps anybody I've ever come
across in the space.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Oh, that's the best
compliment I could hope for.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Well, thank you,
because it's so important.
You talk about the sort ofmarriage between creativity and
business and how important it isfor people going into this
field to at least understand thebusiness, to set their
expectations and to not gettaken advantage of Correct.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
Yeah, I think very
early in my career, especially
when I was working as atraditional publishing editor
and issuing those rejections,that I don't think I ever wrote
a big N-O on anything, Thank you.
But certainly that's like.
That's how people felt, thoughon the inside, even if that's
not how I expressed it, and Isaw how people got bitter very
(12:19):
quickly.
And you know, for me on theother side of the desk I would,
you know, I would keep saying inpublic and in private, like
it's not personal, stop makingit personal.
But on some level it's unfairof me, when I don't have any
stake in this, to say don't takeit personally.
I understand now, like havingspent so many years at this,
(12:41):
Writers are going to take itpersonally, but you have to move
past it.
You have to move past it andrealize it is not a statement on
the quality of your art.
If you're going to succeed inthe future on either the art or
the business side, it doesn'tmean anything and I try to
convey that in the book.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Well, I've often said
if you're going to go into this
field, please either have orstart developing a thicker skin,
which is so much easier saidthan done.
There are so many things aboutbeing in this space that I feel
like we learn about parts ofourselves that we didn't
(13:22):
necessarily sign up for.
Do you think that's differentin this space than in other
spaces?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I think it's true of
probably most creative
professions, and I do think thepeople who tend to succeed are
those who can, like, roll past,you know, all of the hurts and
scrapes and bruises.
I think it really beats peopleup and they just drop off
because they can't, becausethere's no guarantee, right,
like maybe if someone could tellyou oh well, if you just keep
(13:52):
falling down and accepting thescrapes and cuts and offenses,
in 10 years you'll achieve whatyou want or what you're dreaming
of.
But there aren't any guarantees, and so people just self-select
out.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Yeah, and I love how
you're.
So I don't know if the word isencouraging, validating all of
the above, about having anotherjob outside of being an author
or writer, whether it's in thewriting field or not, is so much
more common.
People think of it as well.
I'm not making it yet, I'vefailed right, but it's more
(14:29):
common than not, it's morecommon and it's certainly not a
failure.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
And I think it helps
bring self-awareness to the
creative part of your life.
When you're doing somethingthat's not creative and if you
are involved in something that'sadjacent or tied into your
creative practice, I think it.
When you observe others oryou're working with others, I
think it again.
It brings more self-awarenessto things that, um, you might be
(14:59):
doing or not doing, like boththe good and the bad, you know.
This is why it's often said oneof the best ways to improve
your own writing is to see a lotof bad writing, because it's
easy to see it in someone else.
And then you start to realizeokay, now I understand why you
shouldn't start a story withwith a phone ringing, a phone
waking someone up out of a deepsleep with a boring phone call
(15:22):
With a boring phone call.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Well, and how?
So?
Okay, this makes me think aboutthe whole subjectivity of art,
because it, I guess, takingaside the literary fiction,
where people have studied thecraft and really understand all
of that and have worked on itday in and day out for years and
years and years it's soimportant and I've heard you say
(15:44):
this so many times that whenyou if and when, really it's
when you are rejected forsomething, there are myriad
reasons why that can happen.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, I mean you
can't.
There's no limit.
It's like it's only limited bythe number of people on the
planet.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yes, and what
somebody likes somebody else.
Will you know what the New YorkTimes anything on?
At number one on the New YorkTimes there's a group of people
who think it's the worst thingthey've ever read.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I
think it actually can buoy the
spirits to read reviews ofthings like the Great Gatsby.
Or pick your favorite book, goread some of the reviews.
I think it'll help.
But I want to actually I wantto go back to something you said
earlier about people writingliterary fiction, or people who
might be getting degrees orthey're studying the craft, and
(16:33):
so here's, like the paradox thatI've observed In too many
creative writing programs I'mnot going to say all, because
that's unfair, but too manyyou're reading and critiquing
and expected to pick up thingsby osmosis.
There's not actually a whole lotof prescriptive information
that's given or shared.
(16:53):
There's really a hesitance forso many reasons, to tell people
look, this is how you write abook, or this is how you
structure a book, or this iswhat you need to know about
character, motivation, all ofthe things that like when I
worked at Writer's Digest, thesort of advice we would put in
the magazine and in the bookshere's how to do it.
Obviously, there's a point atwhich that advice becomes
(17:14):
limiting, but I do feel likesome writing programs aren't
teaching the craft.
They're just teaching you aboutart and they're pointing at it.
Look at that art.
And they're wanting you todevelop your art with zero
attention to market concerns oreven talking about.
Okay, what compromises mightyou make if this is the sort of
(17:37):
success you want or if you wantto be published in this way?
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Well, that's actually
quite interesting because I
don't have a degree in writing.
My degree is in Japanese.
For God's sake, it's not evenwriting adjacent.
But I wanted to be a journalistfor many years and it's curious
to me how much of theinstructional I guess just the
(18:06):
instruction that's given issomehow influenced or informed
by that instructor's own processand how they write and et
cetera.
It's interesting, I do.
It's interesting.
The more I talk withtraditionally published authors,
I'm intrigued by how much theydo pay attention to what's
(18:28):
happening in the market, right?
So, like, what's the trend?
And then, of course, once youknow it's a trend, it's
sometimes on its way out, right?
And your ability to write abook now that probably won't
come out for two to three years,where's the trend going to be
then?
A book now that probably won'tcome out for two to three years,
where's the trend going to bethen?
So how do you guide people tomarry those two things, right,
(18:54):
what the business wants versuswhat someone wants to do and
what they want to explore as acreative person?
Speaker 2 (18:58):
So there are a few
levels or ways to think about
this.
Certainly, I talk a lot abouttrends in my work and I do it
mainly because I think peopleneed to know which way the wind
is blowing, so that you canadjust course properly or you
know if trying to publish thisparticular thing is likely to
result in frustration or if youshould go to a different type of
(19:20):
publisher, or you realize anagent's not going to be likely
for that sort of work.
It just helps, you know, forall the reasons we talked about
earlier, setting thoseexpectations.
So just having that kind ofmarket savvy, can you avoid
wasted time.
The other piece of this iscertainly, if you're, I think
there are certain commercialgenres that I mean they're going
(19:42):
to be around forever.
There's always going to beghost stories, romances and
detective stories.
I can't imagine them going away.
Pretty evergreen, exactly.
So if you are a writer lookingto make money, there are ways to
play with those formulas, withthose genres, in ways that I
(20:03):
think are very sophisticated.
And I think when you see someof the more literary authors who
break out, the people who havethe MFA backgrounds, they're
often using genre tropes orgenre formulas combined with.
You know kind of this MFAsophistication.
And then the other thing Iwould mention is this especially
gets into like if you werethinking about oh, I really want
(20:25):
to write something that wouldbe read in book clubs, like
upmarket fiction, book clubfiction, the sort of thing Oprah
would pick.
This to me is just beinginvolved in the world, like
paying attention on some levelto news culture, what people
care about, what people areanxious about.
(20:45):
I mean, if you're an engagedperson in the world, your
writing is probably going toreflect that.
Sure.
So I don't think that's, Ithink that's awareness of what's
happening around you.
I don't think it requiresreading the news every day, but,
like I'll never forget, it wasMargaret Atwood when she
described how she wrote theHandmaid's Tale.
(21:06):
She I don't know if she stilldoes this, but she was keeping a
scrapbook.
So when she saw news articlesor things in the world that were
really like oh, wow, that'skind of remarkable, she would
cut them out and put them in ascrapbook and over time, you
know, she was obviously likeconnecting things and melding
some different ideas togetherfrom things that she was
actually observing in the worldand that brought us A Handmaid's
(21:29):
Tale.
So that's what I mean by thatis you know, I don't like and I
may say this in the book I don'tlike the idea of the writer
saying oh, I have to go off intomy isolated garret up on the
mountain, closed off from theworld, to produce my art.
I don't, I think that's a veryold fashioned idea of how this
gets done, but people still like.
(21:50):
Think about that.
Oh, I don't want to.
You know, I'm an introvert andI can't engage with anyone while
I'm producing my art.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Absolutely.
Or there's this thought and youdo say something in the book
about this.
I'm 99% sure there's thisthought that if I get away and I
have complete solitude and Ihave eight hours a day, I'm
going to get this done.
But the reality is that most ofthe people who do get it done
do it in five minute incrementsin between picking up kids and
(22:16):
they're at soccer practice,they're making dinner, so it's
almost this sort of weird,counterintuitive, paradoxical
thing where it's almost like theless time you have.
Yes, I don't know, that'scertainly experiential, like it
depends on everybody'sexperience.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I mean, yeah, in my
experience, it's the people who
have absolute freedom who tendto get paralyzed.
Yes, it's a lot of pressure,you know, and I think it's.
There's a lot less pressure ifyou say I'm just going to take
these five minutes or 15 minutes, and even if you have, you know
, kids screaming around you oryou're, you know, in a parking
(22:55):
lot waiting for someone to, youknow, come out from their
appointment or whatever, havingthat bit of friction or pressure
I think is actually very usefulfor the creative process.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Well, I think I mean
I get a lot of my material from
stuff that's just happeningaround me, you know, I mean in
all the years that I wrote,unfortunately for them.
At this point they say so muchabout my kids.
I mean I couldn't have made upsome of the things that they
were doing in Target and Aisle 7.
Can I read a line from the bookthat I want to ask?
So you say it's unlikely thatevery piece of writing you do or
(23:31):
every opportunity you pursuewill advance artistic, monetary
and readership goals.
Commonly, you can get two ofthe three, and it made me think
about the adage you can have itquick, fast or cheap.
Pick two right.
So will you say more about that, about that?
(23:56):
Is it that people and I use theword should very carefully but
really contemplate their goalswith?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
it.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of this isabout self-awareness, about why
you're doing a particularproject or piece of writing, but
it's also in response to thequestion I often get about how
do I balance the art andbusiness.
And it's like, first of all, Iquestion the idea of balance.
No matter the subject we'retalking about, I don't know that
that's the goal I have foranything in life.
(24:22):
Now I'm not suggesting likestress and overwhelm and anxiety
, but I just question what wemean when we say balance.
So in response to that dilemma,I say well, you have to think
about each project in terms ofhow it's meeting three goals
that are, I think, usually ofinterest to writers.
(24:43):
You have interest in producingart, fulfilling your creative
goals or mission.
You have interest in earningmoney At least, I think most
people want to get paid for whatthey're doing on some level.
But there's also the I thinkthis is the factor that's often
left out.
There are certain things thatyou do that they might not earn
you much money, they may haveless to do with your artistic
(25:05):
goals as well, but they'rereally good for your visibility
or your platform building.
So I always encourage people tothink about that.
I'm trying to protect peoplefrom the knee-jerk reaction of
oh they wouldn't offer me anymoney so I'm not doing it.
The whole writing for free,writing for exposure problem
that people have, I mean, thereis something of a problem, but I
think it's overstated and I'mtrying to help people understand
(25:29):
that, yes, there actually issome money in exposure if it's
the right opportunity, that'sthe big question.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
And there's value,
even if the value isn't monetary
, because it might becomemonetary to your point down the
line, or sometimes it's justabout.
And I'm going to get toplatform, because I usually have
a word, if not five a year,that I think if I never hear
this word again, I'll be sohappy.
And platform might be what itmight be the 2025 word, what
(25:56):
that?
I feel that way after the endof this, oh God.
But you know, you have thisother point that I was really
excited about, where you saybeing a published writer is not
the incredible Holy Grail thatpeople might think.
You have to really want to doit to continue, and whatever
self-doubt or anxieties youexperience do not disappear once
you publish.
(26:17):
In fact, they tend to increase.
And would you say more aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
So, as soon as
someone gets a book published
and I don't care how it gotpublished or how much money you
got paid does not matter thenext thing you're going to look
at is okay, how many reviews,how many sales Did the New York
Times cover it?
Did so-and-so cover it?
What about these other booksthat came out at the same time?
(26:43):
Did they get something I didn'tget?
What about the year-end lists?
Was I nominated?
Did I get on them?
Am I getting awards?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
And it just goes on
and on and on, and I think
there's this misconception,there's so many misconceptions
in this space and I think one ofthe biggest that I have heard
and experienced time and timeagain is, once I get that first
book out, I'll exhale Right, andit'll kind of be, I'll be able
to coast from there, and I justthink, oh God, no.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
No, no, I'm sorry, no
.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
I wish, believe me, I
wish that were true.
But it's just again withexpectation setting.
I think if we can be like Iwonder what nightmare is going
to don my doorstep next week,right, then we can be optimistic
about how am I going to dealwith that Before I get to
platform, because I'm going toput that one off as long as
(27:34):
possible because I work so muchin the self-publishing or the
indie publishing.
However one chooses to,whatever moniker one chooses to
use, what are you seeing in thatspace that feels exciting or
optimistic?
And what are you seeing?
Maybe that people'sexpectations aren't set quite
(27:54):
right.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
So when I think of
the self-publishing space, I'm
primarily thinking aboutcommercial fiction or genre
fiction, because that's whereit's easiest to gain traction
for folks if they'recareer-minded and they really
want to do this for a living.
So the great things that I'mseeing in that area are
(28:16):
traditional publishers are muchmore partner-oriented or
collaboration-oriented than theyever have been in my career,
meaning they will fish for thebest or most successful authors
who have already found theirreaderships and now they really,
(28:36):
truly need a partner to take itto the next level.
That's going to differ byauthor what that means, but
often it involves print retaildistribution, translations,
subsidiary rights, etc.
So an example of this right nowis if you look at Sourcebooks,
they have an imprint calledBloom.
That's their business modelpartnering with really
well-established indie authors.
(28:56):
The indie author keeps theire-book and audio book rights in
most cases, and then Bloom takesover the print distribution and
it really truly is acollaboration.
And I want to emphasize thatbecause so many times, at least
earlier in my career, you wouldsee self-published authors
picked up.
You know it could be one book,it could be several, and the
(29:18):
publisher would start making allsorts of decisions about that
book without paying muchattention to what that author
thought Like, whether that wascover, design, pricing, like.
At that point you know, if theauthor has had that much success
, they probably know theirreadership better than the
publisher on some level.
And so I think Bloom Books istruly collaborative in the sense
(29:40):
that the decisions they'remaking are in partnership.
They're not overruling theauthor on anything.
They're advising, they might beurging, but they don't say you
have to do this or else, or no,sorry, your contract says we
have final word.
That does not exist with them,or so they say, and I believe
(30:01):
them because their authors havebeen quite loyal to them.
So that's like the good pieceof this.
I think the frustrating piece inthe self-publishing indie
market is just the immensecompetition, the fact that
Amazon is so predominant, and ifyou don't like Amazon, I don't
know that I could encouragetrying self-publishing.
(30:23):
I mean there might be somereally fringe cases of people
able to make it without Amazoninvolvement.
But especially in genre fiction, you're probably putting your
e-book into Kindle Unlimited,which means exclusivity on the
ebook to Amazon, and that'sreally distasteful to some
people.
But what I see it, as you know,kind of I hesitate to say a
requirement, but if you'retrying to build a readership
(30:45):
from scratch, it's really hardto avoid.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Right?
Well, and in the nonfictionspace, do you feel to the degree
that you're comfortablespeaking to the nonfiction space
?
You know, in the last I wouldsay five years, I feel like, is
when we started to see thismassive push about.
If you're an and I'm using airquotes an expert in a certain
area, the book is your newbusiness card and so all you
(31:10):
need to do is publish a book,whether traditionally or you
know, but it's going to probablyinvolve a big cost, at least
from a marketing push standpoint, and that is your ticket in.
And I think that's where I'vehad to do the most expectation
setting.
It's not with folks who arewriting fiction, because I feel
(31:31):
like there's an understandingthere that and there's also an
interest in the writing, whereassometimes on the nonfiction
side there are ghostwritersbeing hired and things.
So it's not an interest in thecraft, it's not an interest in
being immersed in the literarycommunity, it's the idea that
(31:51):
this book is going to unlocksomething.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Right.
So I find it so challenging totalk about self-publishing
nonfiction, not least becausethere's so many different
categories we could discuss andI include poetry in this
discussion as well.
It's technically considerednonfiction in the book industry
coding so like, for example, ifyou get into, let's say, the
(32:17):
cooking area, food, anythingrelated to that, I mean good
luck getting an agent and atraditional publisher unless
you're already a name of somekind.
So where does that leave peoplewith more modest platforms?
So where does that leave peoplewith more modest platforms who
may have quality, whateverrecipes, food, whatever that
(32:38):
category calls for?
You know, I recently profiled anauthor at my site who
self-published his cookbooksusing one of these really quick
services.
I'm not going to remember thename, but it's like I would not
call them a publisher, right, Iwould call them a printer.
They will.
If you're on TikTok and youwant someone to like help, you
(32:59):
slap a book together to sell toyour TikTok followers.
This is the company you go toand they just print whatever you
send them, which means if thereare errors, there are errors.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
And they only sell if
we're.
If I think we might be talkingabout the same author, is it
where they?
They only print or they onlysell through there?
Yes, there's no white.
Okay, correct.
Speaker 2 (33:19):
We're talking about.
I mean, if you know the companyname, say it.
I don't think they would takeoffense.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
but no, and I can't
remember it right now either.
Is is it the author with thedown?
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Yes, get yourself a
plate.
Yeah, matthew Bounds.
Speaker 1 (33:39):
Matthew Bounds and I
had a conversation with Matthew
and he was lovely and he wastrying to figure out how, but he
had amassed I mean, we're goingto talk about platform a huge I
couldn't believe the number ofcookbooks that he was selling
and so he needed widerdistribution.
And so he got that deal, butcontinue on with your point
please.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Yeah, so he was able
to demonstrate market demand.
And at that point the publisherswoop in and say let us help
you with that.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Understandably.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Right, right.
So there are other people whothey don't have that following,
or it's a smaller following, andthere's this question that
comes into play.
I think for these people shouldthey do this with a company
that can get them into what Iwould call traditional
distribution outlets, wherebookstores and libraries are
(34:32):
going to feel super comfortableordering that book, or they can
get their book into the airportbookstore or whatever, wherever
it is they think their bookshould go, and that costs a ton
of money.
Um, because we're talking abouta print run, and then the
marketing and publicity and thenall of the other stuff you're
going to have to pay thatcompany for.
So 20 000,000 and up 20,000 isminimum in my opinion.
(34:52):
So if this company is worth itssalt, or do you just want to
cobble together the freelancersor experts, you need to get that
book out and then market toyour own audience and maybe to
some select places where youfeel like you're going to reach
maybe a broader audience, likeif it's a business book.
(35:14):
This is going back many years,but there was a book called
Traction and they had a point tomake about how to get traction
in the market with a productSurprise.
So they used their own bookmarketing as a case study for
how to gain traction, and theydidn't use a company, they just
did it on their own book,marketing as a case study for
(35:34):
how to gain traction.
And they didn't use a company,they just did it on their own
and they had phenomenal successdoing it.
But they really understood whothat book was for.
They knew the podcasts to go to, the blogs, the thought leaders
.
They already had relationshipswith those people anyway, so
they were already a knownquantity in that little
community they were part of andthen they were able to kind of
(35:54):
ascend the market.
That way, I think, for peoplewho don't have the relationships
who you know are made, or they,you say the word community and
you get a blank stare.
I don't know that I would bespending tens and tens of
thousands of dollars when youdon't have something, some sort
(36:17):
of foundation, to work with.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Well, the idea, I
think, sadly and unfortunately,
and I do feel that way is thatbecause the belief is that the,
in this case, the hybridpublisher we can probably refer
to them in that way is going todo the marketing and do the
selling, and that is just in myexperience, has never and I
don't use that word lightly beenthe case.
(36:39):
Yeah, you know, I'm curious.
The wide distribution of whatvalue are you seeing that having
outside the traditional worldfor people, given that 60 to 80%
of consumers I mean love themor hate them do buy their books
online and of those, 50% aregoing to Amazon.
(37:02):
So what should that allurestill be there?
Is it a vanity thing in yourmind to say, oh, I'm in
bookstores and then, of course,having to deal with returns, and
these are things people don'tknow going into it, right.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
So my personal view
is that it is vanity and I don't
understand why this is soughtafter, given the statistics you
just quoted, which are accurate,that the large majority of
books are purchased online.
So why is it so important tosome of these authors to be in
bookstores or to have some sortof cachet in that realm,
(37:38):
especially when industryinsiders that operate these
bookstores or whatever, they cansee you have hybrid published
and you're paying all the bills,right?
So that's my personal view, andI want to distinguish that from
what I hear from people who arehappy that they have spent this
(38:00):
money.
So I do talk to authors who arevery happy with their hybrid
publishing situation, who havepaid to get this distribution.
They've pulled out all thestops and when they look at the
results, they're like I'm glad Idid that.
I don't dispute that.
They're glad.
I don't think they're lying tome.
But if I were going to have adebate with them on stage, I
(38:23):
think one of the questions Iwould have is how many sales
would you have lost had you nothad that distribution?
Because I don't know if itwould have been enough to make a
difference.
There is one person that Ireally respect and trust in this
space.
His name is Josh Bernoff.
He was involved in a reportrecently a business ROI for
(38:43):
authors where he kind ofanalyzed what's the profit from
publishing a business booktraditional, hybrid,
self-published what money arepeople putting in, what money
are they getting out and it kindof to me it looked like a wash
and I think he would say that aswell.
But the people who here's theinteresting thing the people who
(39:04):
are putting a lot of money intolike a hybrid scenario and
paying for that distribution,they were also.
They tended to be moremotivated.
They were making better choicesin regards to the writing and
the editing and the packaging ofthat book, and so they were
putting more investment at everystep along the way, which then,
of course, no surprise givesthat book better performance
(39:27):
once it reaches the next.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Absolutely.
Is that the same study thatNaren Ariel from Amplify
Publishing Group?
Speaker 2 (39:34):
Yes, Same one.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
So Naren was on a
couple of weeks ago.
We chatted on an episode acouple of weeks ago and I think
when I had it was like $1 to$1.24 was the return.
The return was about $1.24 forevery dollar spent, and so
agreed that it's a bit of a washright, unless your volume is
really high.
So you've got to have a plan iskind of my point with people is
(40:02):
that's my personal, and I'msaying that as someone who also
has to have a plan and has seenwhat happens when I don't have a
plan or when my plan is basedon expectations that I shouldn't
have had for one reason oranother.
Yeah, all right.
So let's launch into my favoritetopic, platform, and I just
want you to take the wheel onthis one, jane, because I think
(40:24):
and I want your thoughts on thisthat platform the word platform
beyond making me crazy isdifferent.
It's a different concept in thebook industry than perhaps in
other industries, like whenwe're talking about traffic and
how much are you increasing?
How much does your ad increase?
Like that's not what we'retalking about, about platform.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
So take it away.
So I'll start by saying thatwhen I revised the book so from
the first edition to the secondedition for the second edition I
created a section devoted toplatform.
I hated that.
I did it on some level, but Ifelt like it was necessary and I
put it really up front.
It's part two, yeah, short.
(41:09):
So the reason I did it that wayis because there is so much bad
information and anxietysurrounding platform that I felt
like I needed to like cut offat the pass all of the people
who are reading the book andthinking, but what about
platform?
But what about platform?
And carrying these really badideas about what it is through
(41:30):
the book?
I just wanted to like nip it inthe bud.
I'm also acknowledging, byputting it up front, that this
is just one of the top of mindissues for every writer, whether
I like it or not, even though Ithink it's overemphasized.
So I think it getsoveremphasized because agents
and publishers talk about it alot.
People are getting rejected forlack of platform all the time,
(41:54):
and you have the mainstreammedia doing these clickbaity
articles about how onlyinfluencers and TikTok stars now
get book deals, which is false.
So what I want to say to folkswhether you know, regardless of
(42:15):
what you want out of yourwriting and publishing career.
Rather than thinking aboutplatform as this burdensome
thing you have to do to satisfythe demands of authors and
publishers because they said youneed it, I want you to think
about platform as something thatgives your career independence,
longevity, that makes marketingand promotion a much more
(42:38):
natural effort, rather than ohmy god, what am I going to do to
market and promote my book?
So I look at it as this veryorganic thing that's developed
over a career that starts withyour lived platform and that is
like the places you went toschool, the place that you live,
the relationships that you have, the careers or the different
(43:01):
jobs that you've held, thedifferent organizations,
associations, nonprofits,whatever, whatever you're
involved in.
That's often where these thingsstart.
And then, once you get involvedin the writing and publishing
community, if you're doing it ina way that is productive,
you're not writing in the garretbut you're out at events or
conferences, at readings, attalks, you are on social media,
(43:24):
communicating with other authors, with peers.
You are becoming a literarycitizen, in effect, and I talk
in the book about literarycitizenship, which is not
marketing and promoting yourself, but focusing outward on the
people who are going to besupporting your book when it
comes out, because you've madethis investment, you're making
the investment in each other.
So, yes, there is like anonline media component to this.
(43:48):
There's the social media piecewebsites, newsletters but I
think people often forget theother side of it too the
relationships, which is where itall begins.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
And I think you know,
when you look at the
influencers, I think that's partof the reason why someone can
go from relative obscurity to amillion and a half followers on
a social media platformovernight is because they
already had the platform.
It's sort of like what comesfirst, the chicken or the egg.
And you also see, I see plentyof authors and creatives on
(44:23):
social media who have a lowfollower number, but they're
doing fine, whatever fine is forthem, right, they're living the
life that they would like tolive.
And on the flip side, you seepeople who do have hundreds of
thousands or more followers, whoare maybe not talking about it
but not really sure how they'regoing to pay the water bill that
(44:45):
month.
Because, right, it's like howmany people are listening, how
many people are engaged, howmany people care?
And I think, will you talk realquick about Patreon, because
it's a question I get it's kindof like the newest thing, right?
So for people where thependulum swings constantly, it's
like you need to have a new,which I am a firm believer in
(45:06):
having an email list, but youneed to have an email list and
then you need to have a podcast,you need blah, blah, blah, and
then Patreon comes on the sceneand I'm asked often well, should
I have that Because it's a wayto monetize?
And my first question is do youalready even have an email list
Because, or a large audience insome way, shape or form, who's
(45:29):
going to come onto your Patreon?
Is it Patreon that I'm eventhinking?
Substack, sorry, substack,that's what I'm thinking.
Okay, but sometimes people useone to fund the other or to feed
the other.
Rather, but, Substack becamelike the new oh well, now I can
get paid to have a newsletter.
Yeah, but Substack became likethe new oh well, now I can get
(45:50):
paid to have a newsletter.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
And I don't think
people realize that it's really
hard to get people to give you$5.
It is exceptionally challenging.
Yes, I have a chart actuallythat I showed during some of my
talks, that lists all of theways that you can potentially
earn money as a writer outsideof book sales, and I start at
the top with donations andaffiliate marketing and then at
(46:16):
the very bottom I have it codedby color from yellow, green, red
or no green, yellow, red and atthe bottom, red subscriptions,
which is Substack.
Usually when I haveconversations with writers about
this, I encourage them to startwith the easier places to maybe
(46:37):
get the $5.
I think for some that'scrowdfunding, perhaps, like if
you have a very particularproject that you would like
people to support.
I think you can do a reasonablecrowdfunding campaign even if
you have little to no platform,because most of the people who
support those projects arepeople you already know.
It's like your mom, even yourex.
(46:59):
You have to seed it with someof these people who are willing
to toss you money and then youkind of get the ball rolling
from there.
There are many writers who areable, even if they have a sub
stack that they don't charge for.
They have some sort of donationbutton or you know here, Venmo
me five bucks if you enjoyedthis post, or PayPal me or
whatever, and you have thedonation and the tipping now
(47:23):
built into various parts ofonline media.
So it's pretty easy to do andit costs you nothing.
There's no, no one's expectinganything Like.
There's no transaction going on.
It's like okay, I want tosupport you.
Sure, here's, here's some moneythis one time.
But once you get into thesubscription models, especially
Substack, where there's a lot ofcompetition now I think some
(47:46):
people are operating this in avery transactional spirit,
meaning, if you give me 60 bucksa year, I'm going to give you
something that equates in yourmind to $60 of value, like a
magazine or newspapersubscription.
But most sub stacks are noteven worth a dollar a year.
And that's not a criticism ofthe writers, it's just like no
(48:06):
one has told them.
Look, you can't write aboutwhat you did today.
I was going to say what you hadfor lunch, yeah, and expect that
to translate into asubscription model, right?
The other thing that reallykind of annoys me about this
race to Substack and to chargefor Substack is that the value
of the email newsletter hasalways been and always will be
(48:30):
the free newsletter that givesyou a direct communication line
to the people most interested inyour work.
So as soon as you startcharging for that, you are
really throwing a wrench in thatand not getting that really key
value.
So if you are going to havesomething that's paid a sub
stack or whatever please don'tgive up on having something free
(48:51):
for your readers so you can letthem know when you have a new
book coming out without themhaving to pay to learn that you
have a new book coming out.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Well, and something I
find interesting from a
business model standpoint ishaving a something insert,
something that's free for yourreaders, that's actually paid
for by someone else.
So having a free podcast whereyou have sponsors, having a sub
stack where you have sponsors,so someone else is footing the
(49:21):
bill in exchange for promotingtheir product to an audience
that will readily enjoy theirproduct.
Or maybe they're not sponsoringit, maybe you're an affiliate
of theirs, and so being able tosort of play in both swim in
both swimming pools, if you willright without you also put
(49:43):
yourself into a position with apaid product, I think, where it
puts a lot of pressure on you asthe creator to make people feel
like what you're creating isworth their $5 or their $3 or
whatever it may be.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Did you happen to see
the Wall Street Journal article
this is maybe a month ago aboutSubstack sponsorships?
I didn't, so this was a realeye-opener, and I'm someone who
does have sponsors for my freenewsletter.
So I do exactly what you justsuggested.
It's a stellar way to earn somemoney, and I'll add electric
speed.
That's electric speed, yeah,which I love.
(50:20):
I think some people feel likethey can't get a sponsor for
their newsletter if they're nota known name or if they only
have several 1000 subscribers orknow there's a lot of um,
underselling or I don't know.
Modesty or whatever.
They think you have to be somebig brand to have an advertiser.
It's not the case, and I wouldsay if, if you are want to test
(50:40):
the waters, you could start outwith classifieds at the bottom,
which are very inexpensive, orthey should be inexpensive, like
fifty dollars a pop maybe, andyou tell your own readership I
am going to start runningclassifieds.
Do any of you want to advertise?
Exactly, that's how it begins.
That's exactly, but back to theWall Street Journal piece.
(51:02):
I mean, even I know the powerof of sponsorship, money and
email and this was just like wow.
It was an article about howsuccessful Substack people are
getting like 10,000, 15,000 andup for sponsorship placements
and I was just like I am notcharging enough for my own when
(51:24):
I saw some of these figures andit also made me wonder.
As an aside, substack must bebig mad that they're not getting
a cut of any of that as far asI know, because they only make
money on subscriptions.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
Right, right, I mean
that payment isn't going because
you control what's in yourright, so it's just a third
party, you know, whatever youchoose.
That's fascinating.
And yet you know to marry that,by the way, with the idea that
you're going after and I saythat I'm using that term loosely
but a customer to give you $5versus these sponsors, some of
(52:01):
whom are more than happy tooffer four figures and up
because, frankly, it's lessexpensive for them than putting
an ad in a print magazine thatis going to go into the recycle
bin.
It is not evergreen, um, butthe cost of those is still the
same, you know.
(52:22):
So, okay, I truly could talk toyou, for I will you come back.
Can we do like a part two?
Sure, I appreciate you so much.
Thank you, my pleasure, thanksfor having me.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
(52:43):
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening and I'll talk with you
again soon.
Thank you.