May 28, 2025 • 44 mins
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Thriller author N.L. Blandford isn't afraid to go dark—like, murder scene dark—and she absolutely loves it.
In this episode, she talks about writing gritty thrillers with complex villains you’ll root for and recoil from. Natasha never planned to become an author. She just wanted to cross “write a book” off her bucket list. Now she’s five books in, spanning multiple series, and shows no signs of slowing down.
We talk about:
- Why she never plots in advance (hint: her characters have strong opinions)
- Her secret weapon for book sales (spoiler: it’s not bookstores)
- Why she chose to publish “wide” to support Canadian platforms like Kobo
- What she’s loving and learning while writing a new series about a fictional mob family in Nova Scotia
- Why “show vs. tell” trips up so many new writers (and how she works through it)
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome to thisepisode of Write the Damn Book
Already.
This might be the first timeI'm going to go back and look
that I have spoken with athriller author and I'm kind of
into it.
So, talking to Natasha Blanfordabout writing thrillers, I
(01:27):
think the most fun aspect of itfor me is how unabashedly
unashamed she is of how much funshe has with murder scenes.
That's the only way I know, andit's not you don't?
I think there are instanceswhen you could have.
You could interview someone orchat with someone and listen to
(01:48):
them talk about these things andfeel concerned and wonder if
maybe you were going torecognize the person at some
point on Dateline or somethinglike that.
But it wasn't that sort of aconversation at all, it was just
I didn't leave feelingconcerned and like I needed to
(02:09):
make a phone call.
I think in so many ways the waythat she thinks about it is so
relatable that it made it funand it made me kind of even
think about whether or not Iwant to incorporate that into my
own world the writing part, notthe anything else world.
The writing part, not anythingelse, just the writing part.
I think you're going to lovethis interview and before I dive
(02:30):
into it I want to let you knowthat I have a new free download
available for those of youwriting nonfiction or memoir who
find yourself feeling stuck onchapter one.
Maybe you haven't yet startedwriting or maybe you're at
chapter six or seven or 20, butyou're still like I just don't
feel like chapter one is reallynailing it, and you know how
(02:50):
important it is for chapter oneto be done very, very well,
because that's where you eithergrab your reader or lose them
forever.
So I've put together a downloadcalled chapter one done, and it
walks you through my slightlyunorthodox process, which by no
means, by the way, is the onlyprocess, nor is it the right
process, nor is it the bestprocess, but it is a process and
(03:15):
it is one that I have honedover the last however many years
writing my own nonfiction andhelping so many other people
write theirs.
When it comes to what's reallyimportant to get clear about
upfront and how we can sit downwith that chapter one and feel
like there are so many thousandsof things that we want to say
to our reader before we getgoing, to let them know you're
(03:35):
in the right place and blah,blah, blah, but we just feel
overwhelmed by it.
It's like what goes in theintro, what do I save for later?
What doesn't go anywhere at all?
So I've got some questions thatyou can pose to yourself,
questions that possibly youhaven't been asked by anyone
else and haven't thought to askyourself.
That can help you getincredibly clear about what goes
(03:56):
in the intro and what doesn't.
You can download that.
I've put a link in the episodenotes.
You can also go topublishaprofitablebookcom.
Forward slash chapter one.
That's all one word and allspelled out.
So not the number one, but theword one, c-h-a-p-t-e-r-o-n-e,
and you can download that forfree now.
(04:16):
All right, so without furtherado, let's hop into the
conversation with NatashaBlandford.
The conversation with NatashaBlandford so what excites you
most about writing thrillers?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Oh, the killing of the people Really.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yes, I uh when I was writing.
I'm going to end up on anepisode of Dateline or something
.
What's going to?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
happen here Like one of those memes.
Oh, she's just the one thesearch engine meme what's gonna
happen here?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
like one of those memes oh, she's just the one the
search engine meme.
As you, season five comes outand we're all going oh god, okay
, anyway go on.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yes, so what?
Even when I was writing myfirst novel, I go to my husband.
Okay, I'm gonna go kill peoplenow that's so.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Do you like writing the killing scene?
I'm like afraid to ask too muchright now.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Oh, don't be afraid to ask too much.
I'll tell you if I can't talkabout it.
Yeah, I don't mind it, okay.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
enjoy.
There are a few scenes whereI'm like oh yeah, this guy's
going to get it.
Here it comes Really.
So are you a plotter?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
or a pantser.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, I'm a discovery writer for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So which are you?
Sorry, I didn't get that.
So, pantser, oh, I saiddiscovery, you are a pantser.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Okay, for the most part I have an idea.
I know how a book's going tostart, but where it's going to
go I never, ever do I know, andeven with my latest novel that
just came out, I tried to tie upthe ending really nicely.
That was the advice I got, andthen when I wrote the last words
I was like, well, I guessthat's how that's going to end.
Yet another figure, sorry.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That's like when I was talking to Jordan Roeder who
wrote it's essentially well,it's not rom-com, that's not
true, but it's called Moms LikeUs and it's for women LA
competition, over-schooling, allthat kind of stuff, right.
And so she did somethingsimilar.
She started to where it wasn'ttied up with a very.
(06:14):
It ended up being tied up witha neater bow, but she didn't
want to leave it that waybecause she's a TV writer and so
she wanted she can see clearlywhere the end of season one is.
Yep, right.
So do you write in series orare they standalone?
So far, so far series.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yep, okay, so I have.
The first series centers aroundtwo sisters in human
trafficking, so that one'sreally dark, like noir thriller.
And then this next one that I'mjust launching just launching,
escaping victoria is like anorganized crime thriller series.
So in this book I wrapped upthe issue that was happening in
book one, but then alluded towhat my what's going to be the
(06:53):
main topic of conversation inbook two with the with the last
sentence.
So that's what I did andinstantly got a message.
The day the book came I waslike where's book two?
Where I don't?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
like it.
But they're completely separate, I mean they like it, but they
want it yeah.
Well, right, but they'recompletely separate, right.
So, like the series arecompletely separate from one
another.
Okay, and this is somethingthat I'm not terribly familiar
with, like the world of sort ofwell series, to just be very
right, like Mary Bell, who's afriend of mine, has a series,
(07:27):
it's the Italy series.
So there's, there are two booksin that series and now she's
moving on to the New Jerseyseries.
It's, it's interesting, andlike.
So one thing I'm curious aboutwith that is how do you decide
when a book is going to be,especially as a pantser, it's
going to be the final one in aseries?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
That's a great question, because I thought I
finished my series at threebooks and now I'm writing a
prequel about the villain, soit's turning into a four book
series.
The series is never ending.
No, it will end on book four.
It has to end on book fourdoesn't, it could go to book
nine.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It's happened before.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I mean I did leave my an opportunity for a spin-off
series I don't know if I'm gonnaexplore that with, with a
character that they could okay.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Um, with this latest one, I don't know how many books
it's gonna be yet well, and itmakes me you said spin-ff, and
it kind of makes me think abouthow many T?
Not that, but there is somesimilarity, right.
How many TV shows will end upbeing spinoffs from any law and
orders are there, oh my God,right?
Well, and of course, you wouldknow that families, how many mom
?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
families could there be, like there's five, there's
five or six mom families thatmake up the family, the
organization.
So I, technically, in this newseries I could, I could have a
whole universe, will I probably?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
not.
Are you a tv watcher?
Oh, yes, okay.
So now I'm curious what?
What?
What are you watching?
What am I watching?
Is it all I'm trying to get to?
Is it all?
Is it?
Is it crime?
Is it law and order?
And I haven't watched law oforder in forever, um I used to
watch.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Oh, I love the originals.
Nancy is oh my god, I yeah,abby's my favorite.
Um, what am I watching?
We just finished white lotus,oh, yellow jackets, handmaid's
tale, because you got to watchhandmaid's tale when you live in
canada I had to drop off.
Um, so did my husband.
It's too real for him so hecan't watch it.
Okay, but being canadian andrealizing like the author and
(09:27):
all things, just like oh yeah.
So I've also tried to pick upsome lighter shows.
So before bed, like my husbandand I will watch tv, but then
we'll watch tv in bed for halfan hour and snuggle yeah because
we have to.
I have to sleep separately, like, don't touch me while I'm
sleeping, so we'll have oursnuggle time.
And so we're now.
We've been making our wayre-watching big bang theory,
because you need a good laugh?
Oh, you do.
(09:48):
For real yeah, north of north,which is a canadian um
production about.
Oh, isn't that just?
Come out on north of north.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Is it good?
I loved it, okay, loved.
So.
You're like me.
You got through the whole thingin quickly.
Yeah, it's only eight episodes.
See, we are the same.
Because that's what I'll say.
It's only episodes, only eightepisodes.
And people will say that willtake me eight months to get
through, and I think what?
That took us?
(10:19):
Two nights, two nights, thereyou go.
Two nights, that's all you needto get through.
I mean two nights there you go.
Two nights, that's all you needto get through.
I mean I don't.
Okay, that's fine, at least weunderstand each other.
Now, what about?
I'm you.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I haven't watched that, so I haven't watched that,
although nope um, I also havecanceled my netflix subscription
, so I don't have access to itanymore at first when it came
out and I didn't read the books,but I got it in my head that I
didn't want to support someonewho's a stalker have I been
living on and under a rock.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I believe you, I just didn't know.
I feel I'm not going to Googleit.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Please do.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I feel very out of the loop on these things.
Yep, it's a novel.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Who wrote it?
By Carolyn Kepnes.
Yeah, I'm not into the stalkerthing, that's just not.
I mean I've been, obviouslyI've been to the human
trafficker thing.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So, because you do workshops on the craft of
writing, I want to talk aboutthis if you're up for it.
So I was talking to JaneFriedman last week and she said
something I thought was sointeresting.
She said I don't teach thecraft of.
First of all, she hasn'twritten fiction.
(11:33):
Admittedly, she's written allnonfiction.
But she's like, how do youteach someone how to write a
book?
Right, and I work with peopleon the and I'm using air quotes.
But craft of nonfiction andmemoir and moving into creative
nonfiction, and what I'mrecognizing is, or just outright
fiction, what I'm recognizingis that teaching the craft of
(11:59):
fiction is a totally differentballgame from teaching.
I wouldn't even call it thecraft of nonfiction.
I'd kind of call it like thestructure of nonfiction or the
pieces of nonfiction that thereader needs to have, the full
picture, the map of, likewhere's this going?
(12:19):
But what's your experience withthat?
Like, how did you learn, how doyou grow your own craft?
How did you come to get towhere you're at?
I just ended a sentence with apreposition Nobody say anything.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well, this is why we have editors, because I don't
don't ask me grammar questions.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That's one of the do people say that to you when
you're, you know, helping themout?
They'll say to me all the timeI have terrible grammar and I'm
like I would prefer that you cantell a story.
We can fix the grammar on theback end, exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
That's why we have editors, correct, and that's why
I tell people like I'm about todo a self-editing workshop in a
couple weeks, but I will behighly emphasizing that you also
need an editor.
But here's the things you cando before you hire an editor.
Ie control f all that I saw.
As I said, I did all the act,all the things you're telling me
(13:12):
that you did instead of showingme.
But I've I've read quite a fewcraft books, like Sasha Black's
craft novels are really good, soI base a lot of my stuff off
her, and I know you're usuallyasked what are you reading?
And one of the books I justfinished the other night is
called Immersion and Emotion.
It's by two Canadian authors,the two pillars of storytelling.
(13:36):
So it's about emotional drawand what transports readers into
the world.
So it even goes into creatingconflict.
So how do you create conflict?
Oh, mm-hmm, how do you createcharacters people will relate to
and not just maybe bestereotypical villains.
So make them personable, sothat maybe you might actually
(13:56):
cheer for the villain.
And that's some of the feedbackI get too is oh, my God, I love
William, but I hate him, but Ilove him.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But I think that's a.
I mean, if you go back to haveyou ever read Superstructure by
James Scott Bell?
No, I have not.
Okay, I really enjoy it.
I mean there's a million andone.
It's kind of his interpretationor his extrapolation of the
hero's journey, but he talksabout how he calls it, I think,
petting the dog, where it's likeif the character is the kind of
(14:30):
person who would kick a dog andyou would expect him to kick
the dog, then we need a scenesomewhere where he turns around
and he pets the dog, becausethen we start to feel for him.
If we just outright hatesomeone, it's hard to.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
it's a weird psychological thing and it's
challenging to do and it'schallenging to teach and
sometimes it's challenging tounderstand, right, and I just
I'm not sure that people areoften prepared for all those
different aspects yes, and soone of my character development
workshops we talked about eventhe different types of villains
(15:06):
or the cliched villains, to kindof avoid, or like the john wick
story, like okay, you kill thedog, you've made him angry.
Maybe don't kill the wife andmake the guy angry, like things
like that you could.
You just need to have a reallygood reason and explain it,
because readers are getting Ifeel readers are getting smarter
and they're like I don't wantto read the same Same.
(15:27):
I think they're getting tired.
Over and over again.
Yeah, like my librarian friendhas been like nobody wants no
offense, james Patterson, nobodywants the same books all the
time Right.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
They want something new, something that pulls them
in, and they can't predict, Iguess, as much.
But also, if you're a JamesPatterson fan, same with who's
the other law guy, john Grishamyes, if you like that, you just
keep reading their books becauseyou know it's kind of like if
you like Hallmark movies, youknow, or you like Danielle
Steele, you just keep watchingthem or reading them because you
know it has a happy ending.
In the romance genreSpecifically, I'm hearing that
(16:07):
women are getting tired.
First of all, women have notolerance, and I won't I sound
like I'm making a generalizationand I am, but it's feels like
it's kind of across the board,no tolerance for women who let a
man save her.
Yeah, I wouldn't read that book.
Right, I wouldn't either.
But there are certain liketropes within the romance
(16:28):
category.
I'm curious if there are any.
I think you've mentioned a few,but in the thriller category
that people have just growntired of?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
That's a great question.
Personally, I don't write in amold so I don't know if I'm
hitting a lot of the tropes.
I think people are just theydon't want the predictability
like the formulaic writinganymore.
They'll be like ooh, give methe twists that take me
somewhere.
(16:55):
I do not.
I did not see coming comparedto to the.
I just watched two episodes ofa tv show I shall not name and I
predicted the bad guy in thefirst episode and I went to
coffee with someone and we weretalking about she's like oh, I
won't tell you, just in case Ifinish.
I'm like no, I'm not, it wasthis guy.
Yeah, it was that guy it's like,then I'm definitely not
watching it like well but is itmaybe?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
maybe, natasha, it's just that you're getting smarter
, or maybe, as a writer, well,that's what I would do.
Well, that's what I keeptelling myself.
Like I almost never pick outwho's the killer, who's the
whatever.
One of my sons is brilliant atit.
Like within 10 minutes he'll gooh he's.
And I think how did you do that?
(17:28):
And then one time recently Idid it.
I was so proud.
I thought my gosh.
I think I'm getting smarter.
I think I think thisperimenopause thing, like I'm
growing, I'm doing the opposite.
I'm growing brain cells.
Let's hope that I get to dothat too.
I'm really hopeful.
It's only happened once, Idon't, but you know, if it can
happen once, it can happenthrice Right.
(17:50):
I'm just curious when you sothe formulaic thing is so
interesting because the formulaworks.
I mean, the formula is aformula because it works right.
So there's kind of this oh, youhave to hit this particular
beat by 25% in, or you know youcan't wait until so how do you
(18:11):
balance that so that theformulas and I'm putting air
quotes there that work, arethere, but they're not obvious
and you can still have fun withit as the writer without feeling
like, oh God, I'm on page 97.
So something has to happen here.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well, I don't follow a formula or even pay attention
to those things that tell mesomething has to happen on page
25.
No, I just write and I thinkhonestly it's got a little bit
intuitive, because I've got tothe point where even my first
drafts, which are mostlydialogue, are already 80,000
words.
So then I'm just fleshing itout and filling in some content
and taking out a bunch of stuff,and a lot of my beta readers or
(18:57):
my critique group will be theone that says you know, you lost
me here, maybe you need to pickup the action.
So there are the ones that tellme I haven't necessarily hit
the beat but I don't analyze itto the point where I'm at 25%.
I just know start with a bang.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Oh, by the way, I've never looked at keep on, yeah,
and I've never calculatedanything.
As an editor and I'm we don'twant to talk about the, the
novel I'm working on right now,because it's nothing's happening
, but I've never calculated itand gone, oh, you're only at 22
percent, or oh, my god, we'realmost it.
It's just, sometimes it'spainfully obvious because, to
(19:26):
your point, as the reader, like,whether I'm editing or reading,
i'm'm, like, I'm bored, exactlyRight, like, when are we good?
So do you always start it withsomething?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Um, okay, Well, my first book not as much of a
punch as my following.
What number am I on?
I'm on five now.
Um, because, honestly, my firstbook was a bucket list item and
I just did it, uh, uh, and Igot feedback and things like
that detailed feedback, but Ididn't have that hook sentence
(19:59):
that I now have in every otherbook.
It's still, I would say, by theend of the first chapter.
You're like, oh, what's goingon with these two sisters.
So I still have the hook.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
It's just not the first first sentence anymore
well, what compelled you to do asecond book if the first book
was just a book?
Because some people it is abucket list item and they get to
the end and they go check,we're done.
It's like me building a triplebunk bed, which I did do once
Like did it never?
Ever doing that again, nodesire to do it differently or
(20:30):
better anything.
What got you to the end andthought I think I want to do
this again?
Oh, ed four more times.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I had nothing else to do in COVID, like a lot
of people, and I don't havechildren, so I wasn't I and I
could not spend that much timein front of a television.
I worked from home, of course,and I had always kind of.
I've always enjoyed writing, Ipaint, I sing, I do a lot of
artsy stuff, but then, of course, I do the analytics for my day
(20:59):
job.
So this is my creative outletand I feel like it's my therapy.
So then I had the story in myhead for like five, six years,
so I knew that I had the story.
And then, when I got to the endand I can't tell you what
happens story and then, when Igot to the end and I can't tell
you what happens because spoilermy character said oh no, we're
not done yet.
And so I had to write book two,which I wrote in six months, I
(21:22):
think, like it just played in amovie in my head and I got it
out and done and then I saidwell, I can't have a two book
series, I have to have a threebook series.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So then, I did 18 years later.
Did you just?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
say 18 years later.
Yeah, so book three takes place18 years after the first two.
I was like wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I know you're not telling me, but 18 years, okay,
okay, no.
I clarified that I startedpublishing in 2021.
Right, I thought this doesn'tmake any sense.
Okay, I would have been a child, exactly.
Which would have been veryimpressive and cool as a story
to tell, but would have made nosense.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And so then I got to book three and my sister-in-law
there's a very witty priest inbook three and she's like you
should try comedy and I saidchallenge accepted, let's write
a quirky Canadian Christmasthriller where people die in
unusually Canadian ways Althoughthere's no Zambonis or hockey
sticks in this first book of theseries, but maybe in the next
(22:21):
one and so I tried comedy.
And then people out here inNova Scotia, when I meet them at
markets they're like oh, is itset in Nova Scotia?
I'm like I've only lived herefor two years.
Where'd you move there fromAlberta and then, before that,
ontario.
Okay, all right, yeah, and sonow I have my new series is
(22:41):
going to be set in Nova Scotia,about a fictional mob family in
Nova Scotia.
A fictional mob family in NovaScotia, yes, so a young girl
gets kidnapped, grows up in themob and now we can see all the
treachery that that happens.
And you think you know, sweetCanadian little province, right,
right.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I can get my characters up too.
Not so much.
Let's bring in that Zamboni.
So what have you always justthought I want to self-publish
or whatever it's never occurredto you to not occurred to you?
Obviously it's occurred to you,but you never had that thought
of.
I want to try to do.
You mind saying why I'm justalways so curious about people's
(23:23):
decisions in this realm?
Well, because the first bookwas bucket list.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I'm like I'm just going to get this out here.
I don't have five years.
I could get hit by a bustomorrow, it was.
The big thing is like how muchtime it takes to get
traditionally published andalthough the the agent and
publishing space is growing inCanada, there's not a lot right,
or yeah, there's not a lot ofagents.
So I said I'm just gonna do itand I don't like I also don't
(23:49):
watch my sales, so I'm not in itfor the money you don't at all.
Not really Okay.
I have a good day job that Ilove, so it funds my life and my
hobby, and then I spend all myspare time writing I love that.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Because I think well, I don't think.
I know that for so many people,whether they're traditionally
hybrid self, whatever publishingmodel they've chosen, sometimes
the love of the creativepursuit gets lost amidst the
pressure to be a certain thing,to hit a certain number of sales
(24:25):
or whatever.
The barometer is that someone'susing at any given point in
time, and it's really nice tofind someone who doesn't feel
like they have to do.
I mean some people, we all havedifferent lives and we all have
different responsibilities andabilities to fund things on our
own, and et cetera, et cetera,but and not but.
(24:45):
It's it's nice to imagine aworld where you're just doing
what you love, without thecommercial pressure or otherwise
pressure to take it to acertain level and of course I
would love it if I could retiretomorrow and just write like
that.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
But that's the dream.
But in reality 14 more yearsuntil I retire.
If I could do it at 55, andthen that would be the dream.
And I'm still working hard totry to get people to notice my,
my writing, like I've pitchedpodcasts and local newspapers.
When I get back from Cuba I'mgoing to pitch some new stations
(25:22):
out here.
I do really well at the craftmarkets.
Shockingly, I I sell lots atcraft markets so I've seen my
income steadily increasing.
Expenses stay about the same,so I'm still not balanced.
But again, in the end, to meit's just a hobby and I'm doing
it for the love of it.
And I appreciate that thereaders keep begging for more,
(25:44):
so I'll keep writing.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
So in Canada, do you print on demand?
Do you print through Amazon andthen just have a bunch sent to
you and take them to the markets?
Is that Okay?
Okay, that's what most peopleI'm finding who are
self-published are doing,because it's just the most
cost-effective way.
It's not necessarily the leastexpensive way, because we could
get our books for less per, butwe'd have to order 2,000.
(26:08):
And I don't know about you.
I currently have over 2,000books under my steps, so I don't
know about I currently haveover 2000 books under my steps,
so I don't have any more room.
Like I'm from back in the daywhen we had to do offset print
runs and I did a really big runfor my third book.
This is just an.
This is an uh, an illustrationof what not to do.
Um, and it didn't work out aswell as I had hoped, and so here
(26:30):
we are, like it's, I don't haveany more room and I'm in
Arizona, where it's 120 degreesand so the glue will melt if I
put them in the garage.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yes, you know what's the-.
My closet is full right now,but I order about a hundred of
each, a hundred copies of eachbook at a time, and then, when I
get down, to like 25, 50, thenI, then I re-up, but I've also
limited myself to the three bigmarkets that see between 3,000
and 7,000 people this year or anevent, because I can't keep
(27:00):
spending all my weekends at amarket.
So hopefully those will be thegood sales years and people will
pick it up on Amazon or Kobo orall those places.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Are you not exclusive to Amazon?
I'm interested in this whenpeople write fiction because
it's a common debate, not overwhich is better or worse, but
some people are very loyal tobeing exclusive to Amazon for
the page reads and other peoplefeel like you know what?
I don't get paid enough forpage reads for that to make
sense.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, and I haven't tried KU to, to be honest, I
went right from the start.
Okay, also because, like Iwanted to support kobo, which is
canadian and right, I I've just, and through listening to other
podcasts, the benefits of goingwide, like some genres work,
really are really beneficial inku.
So go you romance authors, butthat's it, and maybe one day I
(27:57):
could possibly write thrillerromances, because there are
romances in my book.
People are, even in the firstone, a man.
I really want William andOlivia to get together, even
though he's the villain.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
But isn't it so funny ?
The genre of like bending andcrossing and paralleling, that
goes on, is starting to getinteresting.
It's like is this really aromance, is it really a thriller
?
Because sometimes people willsay and I'm not here to say
whether this is right or wrongIf you don't have blank it's not
a romance, or if you don't havefill in the blank it's not a.
(28:27):
You know, I don't know, butromance does incredibly well,
typically with page reads.
I don't, I don't and I don'tknow why it is that it doesn't
do well with page reads outsideof Amazon, except that they
don't sell, they don't pay basedon page reads, right.
But it's curious to me ifyou're getting so many page
(28:49):
reads through Kindle that people, if they were purchasing the
book, the e-book through, say,kobo, you'd think they'd.
I don't.
But maybe it's that lendinglibrary feature.
I don't know, I don't know.
Probably the lending library,probably the lending library.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Kendall kicked it all off and started it off and,
like you said, people tend to beloyal.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, what's the most fun thing that you do for
promotion?
That doesn't feel super like,oh.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
God, I have to go do that.
That's a great question,because I launched in COVID,
there wasn't a lot of promotionfor my first three books.
So I'd say, since moving out toNova Scotia and getting into
the local craft markets, thoseare fun because the readers come
back and give you greatfeedback and I'm like, oh my God
, I read it in two days orwhatever they say, and you
(29:39):
actually get to interact withthe readers.
Yeah, I mean, I don't likebeing a salesperson and be like,
hey, if you like this, which iswhat you have to say, but just
interacting with the people.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Whereas.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I definitely I've hired someone to do a lot of my
social media.
Like I write the blurb, but shedoes the images for me, because
I don't have time for that withmy day job and managing a
household and writing RightRight.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Well, and I think that is kind of for many people
what the assessment has to beyou can only put yourself into
so many activities at one time,so if you have to let go of
something in order to have moretime writing or marketing, or
what is it that you're going tolet go of?
I love what you said aboutpicking the markets that are
dense, meaning a lot of people,do you all?
(30:30):
Have you also had to assess?
Okay, just because there are alot of people there, those
people aren't all reading mystyle of book.
Have you had that happen?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yes, and so when I first moved here, I signed up to
for a quite a lot of of markets, not knowing what worked and
what didn't.
And there were some smallerones where, yes, I'd sell
between five and ten books butthat doesn't equate to my time
Whereas these ones, I've beenselling between 60 and 70 books,
which, even when you take outthe $200 to $300 table fee, you
(31:00):
still are pulling in a couplegrand.
So, uh, I've.
I found that as much as 3 000people walk through.
I obviously only sold 60 to 70books, but they're not a lot of
authors there right now.
So I think I've.
I've hit a market that peoplelike.
It's a craft market, so peopleare selling woodworking or hats
(31:22):
or things they've made right.
Right, there aren't a lot ofauthors there yet, but I might
have been kicking.
I might have kicked somethingoff, so I think I might have
some competition this year.
So we'll see.
But there are some like bookfairs that I've attended that
had a lot of authors but notnecessarily a lot of like a lot
of purchases.
So I've gotta I still have tolearn my market area.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Well, and that's tricky.
We have a big book fair atUniversity of Arizona every
March and I can't think rightnow.
It's called something verysimple like the Tucson Festival.
It might even be called theTucson Festival of Books and I'm
just blanking on it, but what Ithought was interesting is I
went last year and it wasfabulous and I came home with so
many books I wanted, but Iwanted to buy everybody's book.
So that's what's challenging iseveryone who's attending is
(32:15):
interested in books.
That's why they're there, andyet you as the author are sort
of to to a degree, competingwith every other author, unless
someone truly has thewherewithal financially to buy
every single book that they comeacross.
They've got to make decisions,and so I think that's a
consideration for people whenthey go to events like that is,
(32:38):
who's going to be there, howmany people are going to be
there, and then just kind oflearning over time what
percentage of those peopleactually are interested in
reading and in reading thisgenre.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, and where I live, we get a lot of tourists
in the summer, so the summermarket.
I know a couple of my bookswent back to Germany because
that's where they were.
They were on a cruise, right.
They're coming back home, right, they need something to read.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
You never know when you're working with people on
the craft of it, of what they'rewriting, where do you find that
people get really stuck?
Oh my gosh, I mean one of them,me, right, or what's something
that they thought.
Oh, I didn't think.
You know, I thought this wouldbe easy.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
The showing versus telling is a big one.
I'm part of a critique group aswell as doing these workshops
that I'm doing and definitelyand I'm my first draft is
definitely mostly telling.
So then I have to go back andshow For sure.
Yeah, I think that's the big one.
And showing emotions.
I find it with a couple people.
I don't know if they're, as anauthor, afraid to show their
(33:46):
emotions, because maybe theyrelate to the characters but
actually like if you and I werein a relationship and showing
the attraction and the thingslike that.
Maybe it's a little harder toput on the page as much as they
want to, or maybe they're alittle timid to be like well,
will anybody actually want toread this scene?
I don't know.
I do think that's challengingPulling out those emotions.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, it's challenging to take some.
There's a reason why we sayit's hard to put into words and
I think taking those, takingfeelings and even actions and
translating them into words canfeel very awkward for people,
until I'm kind of curious abouthow you do that with killing.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, I do that and I do have sex scenes in my books,
so I do both.
That is a great question,because I just have a lot of
people get shot or like stab,like I like to.
I can not just stabbing, Idon't, I'm not just bang, you're
dead, it's oh bang, there'syour kneecap gone.
Let's, let's, keep you in painfor a while.
(34:50):
Are the?
Is that?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
detail that you build out over time, like when you
first write it is it like heshot him in the kneecap, and
then when you go back, it's likethen I'll describe, yeah,
dangling or something shattered,okay, something like that, or I
could see where that would befun.
I mean, I don't understand ifmaybe I'm to have some issues
(35:14):
that might need to be assessed,but I feel like I can see where
that would be kind of fun.
I feel like a lot of us have alittle bit of rage right now.
Right, better to take it out ona fictional character, exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
And, unfortunately, some not so innocent ones.
I do get the text messages.
Oh my god, I can't believe youkilled.
Insert name here.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Really.
It had to happen in the story,yeah, and people get upset.
It's kind of like when you Wellnot really.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
It's more of oh my gosh, like you just did that, I
did not see that coming, not-.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh well, that's good.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Why did you kill them ?
Yeah, okay, that's good, it'sthe good feedback.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah Well, I think it's always good when you don't
see something coming.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's what I try to do this book like great, I've
done something right.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Yeah, I did something right.
That's delightful.
I'm just picturing some woman Iin a bathtub, like just yeah,
and then snuggled in.
But I mean, stories like thatstand the test of time.
People just love.
I don't think you have to be,you know, violent, adjacent to
like stuff like that.
I think it's just an escape.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, and if you write good characters and the
overall story arc works andeverything's connected Right,
then overall you have a goodstory.
Then that's the big thingOnward.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Right, yeah, so you know, I always end with what
you're reading.
You already mentioned one thingthat you're reading, but what
else are you reading?
And we've talked about whatyou're watching on tv.
So did.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Uh, I am also reading .
It's called the girls whostepped out of the line.
Untold stories of the women whochanged the course of world war
ii now, that surprises me,natasha.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
I did not expect.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I did not expect that I know so I generally read a
biography, World War IInonfiction I have a lot of World
War II nonfiction that I readand then a fiction book, whether
it be a thriller or romance.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
I'm just getting into offbeat romance.
What's offbeat romance?
Well, to me, offbeat, like thethriller romance.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Oh, okay, for.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Ann Weaver's of the world.
She's also Canadian and shewrites serial killer romances um
yeah, and the rabbit hole ofcategories.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I know like I can just see people going out onto
their bookstore of choice andlooking up like serial killer
romance but yeah, this.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
So that book, the girls who stepped out of line.
It just talks about women inworld war ii and their stories
and maybe, maybe things youhaven't heard, like they were
spies or they were reporters, orare you a big history person
and I I feel I've been thinkingabout this lately.
I feel like I read world war iinon-fiction just to learn how
it happened, like to look forthe signs, but um, it's also to
(38:02):
remember how we've gotten wherewe are and why we have the
freedoms, because so much wassacrificed, and I family
connections to it, of course.
Okay, bring it to around to metoo.
So I think that's.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
I've always enjoyed it, but people are often shocked
that I am very shocked and I'venever been a history person
ever until recently, becausesuddenly, given the state of
this world, I want to betterunderstand how did we get here?
Where are we, what does thatterm mean?
(38:36):
And I find myself reallyinterested in it.
And to that point I reallyenjoy reading books that give me
a little bit of a historylesson and or that introduce me
to something in history where Ithink, well, now I want to learn
more about that.
So maybe it doesn't go into itin depth in the book, but it
(38:57):
introduces it to the point thatI get intrigued and then I go
find more actual, non-fictiontype writing on it yeah, and
that's what I've tried to do,even with my my first series
about human trafficking I have.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
There are a few things that I embellish, but I
have resources in the back too,because, yeah, it was a social
issue people in Canada weren'treally talking about and it's
our number one growing crime, isit really?
Yes, and it's really big inNova Scotia that was part of my
goal was shed some light on that, and I'm sure my mob series
will talk on political and othercorruptions.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Excited for that one, I don't know why, like I wasn't
, a big when, I when anyone saysthe mob, I hear two things
godfather and sopranos.
I really wasn't into either.
Sopranos, I I just never it'seither.
Sopranos I just never.
It's great, I'm sure it's great, I just never got into it.
I may not have even hadwhatever it was, wasn't it on
HBO or something right?
I don't think I had HBO or likesome crazy thing.
(39:54):
But when I hear mob, that'swhat I think of and I don't know
why.
But now suddenly it intriguesme, and that it intrigues me
that it intrigues me because Ididn't watch it.
Maybe I need to go back andwatch it, I don't know.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on and chatting and I'll
put all the links to your booksand et cetera in the episode
(40:14):
notes.
Thank you for having me.
This is great.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
(40:35):
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening, and I'll talk with
you again soon.
Elizabeth Lyons than absolutely necessary Because,
let's face it, some overthinking, second-guessing and overwhelm
is going to come with theterritory, if you're anything
like me.
In short, I love books and Ibelieve that story and shared
perspective are two of the mostimpactful ways we connect with
one another.
A few things I don't believe inGimmicks, magic bullets and
(00:42):
swoon-worthy results withoutcontext, as in be sure to reveal
that a result took eight yearsor required a $30,000 investment
in ads, because those detailsare just as important.
What I believe in most as anauthor, the long game, is the
shortcut For more book writingand publishing tips and
solutions.
Visit publishaprofitablebookcomor visit me over on Instagram
(01:06):
at ElizabethLionsAuthor.
Hi everybody and welcome to thisepisode of Write the Damn Book
Already.
This might be the first timeI'm going to go back and look
that I have spoken with athriller author and I'm kind of
into it.
So, talking to Natasha Blanfordabout writing thrillers, I
(01:27):
think the most fun aspect of itfor me is how unabashedly
unashamed she is of how much funshe has with murder scenes.
That's the only way I know, andit's not you don't?
I think there are instanceswhen you could have.
You could interview someone orchat with someone and listen to
(01:48):
them talk about these things andfeel concerned and wonder if
maybe you were going torecognize the person at some
point on Dateline or somethinglike that.
But it wasn't that sort of aconversation at all, it was just
I didn't leave feelingconcerned and like I needed to
(02:09):
make a phone call.
I think in so many ways the waythat she thinks about it is so
relatable that it made it funand it made me kind of even
think about whether or not Iwant to incorporate that into my
own world the writing part, notthe anything else world.
The writing part, not anythingelse, just the writing part.
I think you're going to lovethis interview and before I dive
(02:30):
into it I want to let you knowthat I have a new free download
available for those of youwriting nonfiction or memoir who
find yourself feeling stuck onchapter one.
Maybe you haven't yet startedwriting or maybe you're at
chapter six or seven or 20, butyou're still like I just don't
feel like chapter one is reallynailing it, and you know how
(02:50):
important it is for chapter oneto be done very, very well,
because that's where you eithergrab your reader or lose them
forever.
So I've put together a downloadcalled chapter one done, and it
walks you through my slightlyunorthodox process, which by no
means, by the way, is the onlyprocess, nor is it the right
process, nor is it the bestprocess, but it is a process and
(03:15):
it is one that I have honedover the last however many years
writing my own nonfiction andhelping so many other people
write theirs.
When it comes to what's reallyimportant to get clear about
upfront and how we can sit downwith that chapter one and feel
like there are so many thousandsof things that we want to say
to our reader before we getgoing, to let them know you're
(03:35):
in the right place and blah,blah, blah, but we just feel
overwhelmed by it.
It's like what goes in theintro, what do I save for later?
What doesn't go anywhere at all?
So I've got some questions thatyou can pose to yourself,
questions that possibly youhaven't been asked by anyone
else and haven't thought to askyourself.
That can help you getincredibly clear about what goes
(03:56):
in the intro and what doesn't.
You can download that.
I've put a link in the episodenotes.
You can also go topublishaprofitablebookcom.
Forward slash chapter one.
That's all one word and allspelled out.
So not the number one, but theword one, c-h-a-p-t-e-r-o-n-e,
and you can download that forfree now.
(04:16):
All right, so without furtherado, let's hop into the
conversation with NatashaBlandford.
The conversation with NatashaBlandford so what excites you
most about writing thrillers?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Oh, the killing of the people Really.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Yes, I uh when I was writing.
I'm going to end up on anepisode of Dateline or something
.
What's going to?
Speaker 2 (04:40):
happen here Like one of those memes.
Oh, she's just the one thesearch engine meme what's gonna
happen here?
Speaker 1 (04:45):
like one of those memes oh, she's just the one the
search engine meme.
As you, season five comes outand we're all going oh god, okay
, anyway go on.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yes, so what?
Even when I was writing myfirst novel, I go to my husband.
Okay, I'm gonna go kill peoplenow that's so.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Do you like writing the killing scene?
I'm like afraid to ask too muchright now.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Oh, don't be afraid to ask too much.
I'll tell you if I can't talkabout it.
Yeah, I don't mind it, okay.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
Do you?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
enjoy.
There are a few scenes whereI'm like oh yeah, this guy's
going to get it.
Here it comes Really.
So are you a plotter?
Speaker 1 (05:21):
or a pantser.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Yeah, I'm a discovery writer for sure.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So which are you?
Sorry, I didn't get that.
So, pantser, oh, I saiddiscovery, you are a pantser.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Okay, for the most part I have an idea.
I know how a book's going tostart, but where it's going to
go I never, ever do I know, andeven with my latest novel that
just came out, I tried to tie upthe ending really nicely.
That was the advice I got, andthen when I wrote the last words
I was like, well, I guessthat's how that's going to end.
Yet another figure, sorry.
Speaker 1 (05:52):
That's like when I was talking to Jordan Roeder who
wrote it's essentially well,it's not rom-com, that's not
true, but it's called Moms LikeUs and it's for women LA
competition, over-schooling, allthat kind of stuff, right.
And so she did somethingsimilar.
She started to where it wasn'ttied up with a very.
(06:14):
It ended up being tied up witha neater bow, but she didn't
want to leave it that waybecause she's a TV writer and so
she wanted she can see clearlywhere the end of season one is.
Yep, right.
So do you write in series orare they standalone?
So far, so far series.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Yep, okay, so I have.
The first series centers aroundtwo sisters in human
trafficking, so that one'sreally dark, like noir thriller.
And then this next one that I'mjust launching just launching,
escaping victoria is like anorganized crime thriller series.
So in this book I wrapped upthe issue that was happening in
book one, but then alluded towhat my what's going to be the
(06:53):
main topic of conversation inbook two with the with the last
sentence.
So that's what I did andinstantly got a message.
The day the book came I waslike where's book two?
Where I don't?
Speaker 1 (07:03):
like it.
But they're completely separate, I mean they like it, but they
want it yeah.
Well, right, but they'recompletely separate, right.
So, like the series arecompletely separate from one
another.
Okay, and this is somethingthat I'm not terribly familiar
with, like the world of sort ofwell series, to just be very
right, like Mary Bell, who's afriend of mine, has a series,
(07:27):
it's the Italy series.
So there's, there are two booksin that series and now she's
moving on to the New Jerseyseries.
It's, it's interesting, andlike.
So one thing I'm curious aboutwith that is how do you decide
when a book is going to be,especially as a pantser, it's
going to be the final one in aseries?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
That's a great question, because I thought I
finished my series at threebooks and now I'm writing a
prequel about the villain, soit's turning into a four book
series.
The series is never ending.
No, it will end on book four.
It has to end on book fourdoesn't, it could go to book
nine.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
It's happened before.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I mean I did leave my an opportunity for a spin-off
series I don't know if I'm gonnaexplore that with, with a
character that they could okay.
Speaker 1 (08:17):
Um, with this latest one, I don't know how many books
it's gonna be yet well, and itmakes me you said spin-ff, and
it kind of makes me think abouthow many T?
Not that, but there is somesimilarity, right.
How many TV shows will end upbeing spinoffs from any law and
orders are there, oh my God,right?
Well, and of course, you wouldknow that families, how many mom
?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
families could there be, like there's five, there's
five or six mom families thatmake up the family, the
organization.
So I, technically, in this newseries I could, I could have a
whole universe, will I probably?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
not.
Are you a tv watcher?
Oh, yes, okay.
So now I'm curious what?
What?
What are you watching?
What am I watching?
Is it all I'm trying to get to?
Is it all?
Is it?
Is it crime?
Is it law and order?
And I haven't watched law oforder in forever, um I used to
watch.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Oh, I love the originals.
Nancy is oh my god, I yeah,abby's my favorite.
Um, what am I watching?
We just finished white lotus,oh, yellow jackets, handmaid's
tale, because you got to watchhandmaid's tale when you live in
canada I had to drop off.
Um, so did my husband.
It's too real for him so hecan't watch it.
Okay, but being canadian andrealizing like the author and
(09:27):
all things, just like oh yeah.
So I've also tried to pick upsome lighter shows.
So before bed, like my husbandand I will watch tv, but then
we'll watch tv in bed for halfan hour and snuggle yeah because
we have to.
I have to sleep separately, like, don't touch me while I'm
sleeping, so we'll have oursnuggle time.
And so we're now.
We've been making our wayre-watching big bang theory,
because you need a good laugh?
Oh, you do.
(09:48):
For real yeah, north of north,which is a canadian um
production about.
Oh, isn't that just?
Come out on north of north.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Is it good?
I loved it, okay, loved.
So.
You're like me.
You got through the whole thingin quickly.
Yeah, it's only eight episodes.
See, we are the same.
Because that's what I'll say.
It's only episodes, only eightepisodes.
And people will say that willtake me eight months to get
through, and I think what?
That took us?
(10:19):
Two nights, two nights, thereyou go.
Two nights, that's all you needto get through.
I mean two nights there you go.
Two nights, that's all you needto get through.
I mean I don't.
Okay, that's fine, at least weunderstand each other.
Now, what about?
I'm you.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
I haven't watched that, so I haven't watched that,
although nope um, I also havecanceled my netflix subscription
, so I don't have access to itanymore at first when it came
out and I didn't read the books,but I got it in my head that I
didn't want to support someonewho's a stalker have I been
living on and under a rock.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I believe you, I just didn't know.
I feel I'm not going to Googleit.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Please do.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I feel very out of the loop on these things.
Yep, it's a novel.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
Who wrote it?
By Carolyn Kepnes.
Yeah, I'm not into the stalkerthing, that's just not.
I mean I've been, obviouslyI've been to the human
trafficker thing.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So, because you do workshops on the craft of
writing, I want to talk aboutthis if you're up for it.
So I was talking to JaneFriedman last week and she said
something I thought was sointeresting.
She said I don't teach thecraft of.
First of all, she hasn'twritten fiction.
(11:33):
Admittedly, she's written allnonfiction.
But she's like, how do youteach someone how to write a
book?
Right, and I work with peopleon the and I'm using air quotes.
But craft of nonfiction andmemoir and moving into creative
nonfiction, and what I'mrecognizing is, or just outright
fiction, what I'm recognizingis that teaching the craft of
(11:59):
fiction is a totally differentballgame from teaching.
I wouldn't even call it thecraft of nonfiction.
I'd kind of call it like thestructure of nonfiction or the
pieces of nonfiction that thereader needs to have, the full
picture, the map of, likewhere's this going?
(12:19):
But what's your experience withthat?
Like, how did you learn, how doyou grow your own craft?
How did you come to get towhere you're at?
I just ended a sentence with apreposition Nobody say anything.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Well, this is why we have editors, because I don't
don't ask me grammar questions.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
That's one of the do people say that to you when
you're, you know, helping themout?
They'll say to me all the timeI have terrible grammar and I'm
like I would prefer that you cantell a story.
We can fix the grammar on theback end, exactly.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
That's why we have editors, correct, and that's why
I tell people like I'm about todo a self-editing workshop in a
couple weeks, but I will behighly emphasizing that you also
need an editor.
But here's the things you cando before you hire an editor.
Ie control f all that I saw.
As I said, I did all the act,all the things you're telling me
(13:12):
that you did instead of showingme.
But I've I've read quite a fewcraft books, like Sasha Black's
craft novels are really good, soI base a lot of my stuff off
her, and I know you're usuallyasked what are you reading?
And one of the books I justfinished the other night is
called Immersion and Emotion.
It's by two Canadian authors,the two pillars of storytelling.
(13:36):
So it's about emotional drawand what transports readers into
the world.
So it even goes into creatingconflict.
So how do you create conflict?
Oh, mm-hmm, how do you createcharacters people will relate to
and not just maybe bestereotypical villains.
So make them personable, sothat maybe you might actually
(13:56):
cheer for the villain.
And that's some of the feedbackI get too is oh, my God, I love
William, but I hate him, but Ilove him.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But I think that's a.
I mean, if you go back to haveyou ever read Superstructure by
James Scott Bell?
No, I have not.
Okay, I really enjoy it.
I mean there's a million andone.
It's kind of his interpretationor his extrapolation of the
hero's journey, but he talksabout how he calls it, I think,
petting the dog, where it's likeif the character is the kind of
(14:30):
person who would kick a dog andyou would expect him to kick
the dog, then we need a scenesomewhere where he turns around
and he pets the dog, becausethen we start to feel for him.
If we just outright hatesomeone, it's hard to.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
it's a weird psychological thing and it's
challenging to do and it'schallenging to teach and
sometimes it's challenging tounderstand, right, and I just
I'm not sure that people areoften prepared for all those
different aspects yes, and soone of my character development
workshops we talked about eventhe different types of villains
(15:06):
or the cliched villains, to kindof avoid, or like the john wick
story, like okay, you kill thedog, you've made him angry.
Maybe don't kill the wife andmake the guy angry, like things
like that you could.
You just need to have a reallygood reason and explain it,
because readers are getting Ifeel readers are getting smarter
and they're like I don't wantto read the same Same.
(15:27):
I think they're getting tired.
Over and over again.
Yeah, like my librarian friendhas been like nobody wants no
offense, james Patterson, nobodywants the same books all the
time Right.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
They want something new, something that pulls them
in, and they can't predict, Iguess, as much.
But also, if you're a JamesPatterson fan, same with who's
the other law guy, john Grishamyes, if you like that, you just
keep reading their books becauseyou know it's kind of like if
you like Hallmark movies, youknow, or you like Danielle
Steele, you just keep watchingthem or reading them because you
know it has a happy ending.
In the romance genreSpecifically, I'm hearing that
(16:07):
women are getting tired.
First of all, women have notolerance, and I won't I sound
like I'm making a generalizationand I am, but it's feels like
it's kind of across the board,no tolerance for women who let a
man save her.
Yeah, I wouldn't read that book.
Right, I wouldn't either.
But there are certain liketropes within the romance
(16:28):
category.
I'm curious if there are any.
I think you've mentioned a few,but in the thriller category
that people have just growntired of?
Speaker 2 (16:35):
That's a great question.
Personally, I don't write in amold so I don't know if I'm
hitting a lot of the tropes.
I think people are just theydon't want the predictability
like the formulaic writinganymore.
They'll be like ooh, give methe twists that take me
somewhere.
(16:55):
I do not.
I did not see coming comparedto to the.
I just watched two episodes ofa tv show I shall not name and I
predicted the bad guy in thefirst episode and I went to
coffee with someone and we weretalking about she's like oh, I
won't tell you, just in case Ifinish.
I'm like no, I'm not, it wasthis guy.
Yeah, it was that guy it's like,then I'm definitely not
watching it like well but is itmaybe?
Speaker 1 (17:08):
maybe, natasha, it's just that you're getting smarter
, or maybe, as a writer, well,that's what I would do.
Well, that's what I keeptelling myself.
Like I almost never pick outwho's the killer, who's the
whatever.
One of my sons is brilliant atit.
Like within 10 minutes he'll gooh he's.
And I think how did you do that?
(17:28):
And then one time recently Idid it.
I was so proud.
I thought my gosh.
I think I'm getting smarter.
I think I think thisperimenopause thing, like I'm
growing, I'm doing the opposite.
I'm growing brain cells.
Let's hope that I get to dothat too.
I'm really hopeful.
It's only happened once, Idon't, but you know, if it can
happen once, it can happenthrice Right.
(17:50):
I'm just curious when you sothe formulaic thing is so
interesting because the formulaworks.
I mean, the formula is aformula because it works right.
So there's kind of this oh, youhave to hit this particular
beat by 25% in, or you know youcan't wait until so how do you
(18:11):
balance that so that theformulas and I'm putting air
quotes there that work, arethere, but they're not obvious
and you can still have fun withit as the writer without feeling
like, oh God, I'm on page 97.
So something has to happen here.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Well, I don't follow a formula or even pay attention
to those things that tell mesomething has to happen on page
25.
No, I just write and I thinkhonestly it's got a little bit
intuitive, because I've got tothe point where even my first
drafts, which are mostlydialogue, are already 80,000
words.
So then I'm just fleshing itout and filling in some content
and taking out a bunch of stuff,and a lot of my beta readers or
(18:57):
my critique group will be theone that says you know, you lost
me here, maybe you need to pickup the action.
So there are the ones that tellme I haven't necessarily hit
the beat but I don't analyze itto the point where I'm at 25%.
I just know start with a bang.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Oh, by the way, I've never looked at keep on, yeah,
and I've never calculatedanything.
As an editor and I'm we don'twant to talk about the, the
novel I'm working on right now,because it's nothing's happening
, but I've never calculated itand gone, oh, you're only at 22
percent, or oh, my god, we'realmost it.
It's just, sometimes it'spainfully obvious because, to
(19:26):
your point, as the reader, like,whether I'm editing or reading,
i'm'm, like, I'm bored, exactlyRight, like, when are we good?
So do you always start it withsomething?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Um, okay, Well, my first book not as much of a
punch as my following.
What number am I on?
I'm on five now.
Um, because, honestly, my firstbook was a bucket list item and
I just did it, uh, uh, and Igot feedback and things like
that detailed feedback, but Ididn't have that hook sentence
(19:59):
that I now have in every otherbook.
It's still, I would say, by theend of the first chapter.
You're like, oh, what's goingon with these two sisters.
So I still have the hook.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
It's just not the first first sentence anymore
well, what compelled you to do asecond book if the first book
was just a book?
Because some people it is abucket list item and they get to
the end and they go check,we're done.
It's like me building a triplebunk bed, which I did do once
Like did it never?
Ever doing that again, nodesire to do it differently or
(20:30):
better anything.
What got you to the end andthought I think I want to do
this again?
Oh, ed four more times.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Yeah, I had nothing else to do in COVID, like a lot
of people, and I don't havechildren, so I wasn't I and I
could not spend that much timein front of a television.
I worked from home, of course,and I had always kind of.
I've always enjoyed writing, Ipaint, I sing, I do a lot of
artsy stuff, but then, of course, I do the analytics for my day
(20:59):
job.
So this is my creative outletand I feel like it's my therapy.
So then I had the story in myhead for like five, six years,
so I knew that I had the story.
And then, when I got to the endand I can't tell you what
happens story and then, when Igot to the end and I can't tell
you what happens because spoilermy character said oh no, we're
not done yet.
And so I had to write book two,which I wrote in six months, I
(21:22):
think, like it just played in amovie in my head and I got it
out and done and then I saidwell, I can't have a two book
series, I have to have a threebook series.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So then, I did 18 years later.
Did you just?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
say 18 years later.
Yeah, so book three takes place18 years after the first two.
I was like wait a minute.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
I know you're not telling me, but 18 years, okay,
okay, no.
I clarified that I startedpublishing in 2021.
Right, I thought this doesn'tmake any sense.
Okay, I would have been a child, exactly.
Which would have been veryimpressive and cool as a story
to tell, but would have made nosense.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
And so then I got to book three and my sister-in-law
there's a very witty priest inbook three and she's like you
should try comedy and I saidchallenge accepted, let's write
a quirky Canadian Christmasthriller where people die in
unusually Canadian ways Althoughthere's no Zambonis or hockey
sticks in this first book of theseries, but maybe in the next
(22:21):
one and so I tried comedy.
And then people out here inNova Scotia, when I meet them at
markets they're like oh, is itset in Nova Scotia?
I'm like I've only lived herefor two years.
Where'd you move there fromAlberta and then, before that,
ontario.
Okay, all right, yeah, and sonow I have my new series is
(22:41):
going to be set in Nova Scotia,about a fictional mob family in
Nova Scotia.
A fictional mob family in NovaScotia, yes, so a young girl
gets kidnapped, grows up in themob and now we can see all the
treachery that that happens.
And you think you know, sweetCanadian little province, right,
right.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
I can get my characters up too.
Not so much.
Let's bring in that Zamboni.
So what have you always justthought I want to self-publish
or whatever it's never occurredto you to not occurred to you?
Obviously it's occurred to you,but you never had that thought
of.
I want to try to do.
You mind saying why I'm justalways so curious about people's
(23:23):
decisions in this realm?
Well, because the first bookwas bucket list.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
I'm like I'm just going to get this out here.
I don't have five years.
I could get hit by a bustomorrow, it was.
The big thing is like how muchtime it takes to get
traditionally published andalthough the the agent and
publishing space is growing inCanada, there's not a lot right,
or yeah, there's not a lot ofagents.
So I said I'm just gonna do itand I don't like I also don't
(23:49):
watch my sales, so I'm not in itfor the money you don't at all.
Not really Okay.
I have a good day job that Ilove, so it funds my life and my
hobby, and then I spend all myspare time writing I love that.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Because I think well, I don't think.
I know that for so many people,whether they're traditionally
hybrid self, whatever publishingmodel they've chosen, sometimes
the love of the creativepursuit gets lost amidst the
pressure to be a certain thing,to hit a certain number of sales
(24:25):
or whatever.
The barometer is that someone'susing at any given point in
time, and it's really nice tofind someone who doesn't feel
like they have to do.
I mean some people, we all havedifferent lives and we all have
different responsibilities andabilities to fund things on our
own, and et cetera, et cetera,but and not but.
(24:45):
It's it's nice to imagine aworld where you're just doing
what you love, without thecommercial pressure or otherwise
pressure to take it to acertain level and of course I
would love it if I could retiretomorrow and just write like
that.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
But that's the dream.
But in reality 14 more yearsuntil I retire.
If I could do it at 55, andthen that would be the dream.
And I'm still working hard totry to get people to notice my,
my writing, like I've pitchedpodcasts and local newspapers.
When I get back from Cuba I'mgoing to pitch some new stations
(25:22):
out here.
I do really well at the craftmarkets.
Shockingly, I I sell lots atcraft markets so I've seen my
income steadily increasing.
Expenses stay about the same,so I'm still not balanced.
But again, in the end, to meit's just a hobby and I'm doing
it for the love of it.
And I appreciate that thereaders keep begging for more,
(25:44):
so I'll keep writing.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
So in Canada, do you print on demand?
Do you print through Amazon andthen just have a bunch sent to
you and take them to the markets?
Is that Okay?
Okay, that's what most peopleI'm finding who are
self-published are doing,because it's just the most
cost-effective way.
It's not necessarily the leastexpensive way, because we could
get our books for less per, butwe'd have to order 2,000.
(26:08):
And I don't know about you.
I currently have over 2,000books under my steps, so I don't
know about I currently haveover 2000 books under my steps,
so I don't have any more room.
Like I'm from back in the daywhen we had to do offset print
runs and I did a really big runfor my third book.
This is just an.
This is an uh, an illustrationof what not to do.
Um, and it didn't work out aswell as I had hoped, and so here
(26:30):
we are, like it's, I don't haveany more room and I'm in
Arizona, where it's 120 degreesand so the glue will melt if I
put them in the garage.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yes, you know what's the-.
My closet is full right now,but I order about a hundred of
each, a hundred copies of eachbook at a time, and then, when I
get down, to like 25, 50, thenI, then I re-up, but I've also
limited myself to the three bigmarkets that see between 3,000
and 7,000 people this year or anevent, because I can't keep
(27:00):
spending all my weekends at amarket.
So hopefully those will be thegood sales years and people will
pick it up on Amazon or Kobo orall those places.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Are you not exclusive to Amazon?
I'm interested in this whenpeople write fiction because
it's a common debate, not overwhich is better or worse, but
some people are very loyal tobeing exclusive to Amazon for
the page reads and other peoplefeel like you know what?
I don't get paid enough forpage reads for that to make
sense.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, and I haven't tried KU to, to be honest, I
went right from the start.
Okay, also because, like Iwanted to support kobo, which is
canadian and right, I I've just, and through listening to other
podcasts, the benefits of goingwide, like some genres work,
really are really beneficial inku.
So go you romance authors, butthat's it, and maybe one day I
(27:57):
could possibly write thrillerromances, because there are
romances in my book.
People are, even in the firstone, a man.
I really want William andOlivia to get together, even
though he's the villain.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
But isn't it so funny ?
The genre of like bending andcrossing and paralleling, that
goes on, is starting to getinteresting.
It's like is this really aromance, is it really a thriller
?
Because sometimes people willsay and I'm not here to say
whether this is right or wrongIf you don't have blank it's not
a romance, or if you don't havefill in the blank it's not a.
(28:27):
You know, I don't know, butromance does incredibly well,
typically with page reads.
I don't, I don't and I don'tknow why it is that it doesn't
do well with page reads outsideof Amazon, except that they
don't sell, they don't pay basedon page reads, right.
But it's curious to me ifyou're getting so many page
(28:49):
reads through Kindle that people, if they were purchasing the
book, the e-book through, say,kobo, you'd think they'd.
I don't.
But maybe it's that lendinglibrary feature.
I don't know, I don't know.
Probably the lending library,probably the lending library.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Kendall kicked it all off and started it off and,
like you said, people tend to beloyal.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, what's the most fun thing that you do for
promotion?
That doesn't feel super like,oh.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
God, I have to go do that.
That's a great question,because I launched in COVID,
there wasn't a lot of promotionfor my first three books.
So I'd say, since moving out toNova Scotia and getting into
the local craft markets, thoseare fun because the readers come
back and give you greatfeedback and I'm like, oh my God
, I read it in two days orwhatever they say, and you
(29:39):
actually get to interact withthe readers.
Yeah, I mean, I don't likebeing a salesperson and be like,
hey, if you like this, which iswhat you have to say, but just
interacting with the people.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
Whereas.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I definitely I've hired someone to do a lot of my
social media.
Like I write the blurb, but shedoes the images for me, because
I don't have time for that withmy day job and managing a
household and writing RightRight.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Well, and I think that is kind of for many people
what the assessment has to beyou can only put yourself into
so many activities at one time,so if you have to let go of
something in order to have moretime writing or marketing, or
what is it that you're going tolet go of?
I love what you said aboutpicking the markets that are
dense, meaning a lot of people,do you all?
(30:30):
Have you also had to assess?
Okay, just because there are alot of people there, those
people aren't all reading mystyle of book.
Have you had that happen?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Yes, and so when I first moved here, I signed up to
for a quite a lot of of markets, not knowing what worked and
what didn't.
And there were some smallerones where, yes, I'd sell
between five and ten books butthat doesn't equate to my time
Whereas these ones, I've beenselling between 60 and 70 books,
which, even when you take outthe $200 to $300 table fee, you
(31:00):
still are pulling in a couplegrand.
So, uh, I've.
I found that as much as 3 000people walk through.
I obviously only sold 60 to 70books, but they're not a lot of
authors there right now.
So I think I've.
I've hit a market that peoplelike.
It's a craft market, so peopleare selling woodworking or hats
(31:22):
or things they've made right.
Right, there aren't a lot ofauthors there yet, but I might
have been kicking.
I might have kicked somethingoff, so I think I might have
some competition this year.
So we'll see.
But there are some like bookfairs that I've attended that
had a lot of authors but notnecessarily a lot of like a lot
of purchases.
So I've gotta I still have tolearn my market area.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
Well, and that's tricky.
We have a big book fair atUniversity of Arizona every
March and I can't think rightnow.
It's called something verysimple like the Tucson Festival.
It might even be called theTucson Festival of Books and I'm
just blanking on it, but what Ithought was interesting is I
went last year and it wasfabulous and I came home with so
many books I wanted, but Iwanted to buy everybody's book.
So that's what's challenging iseveryone who's attending is
(32:15):
interested in books.
That's why they're there, andyet you as the author are sort
of to to a degree, competingwith every other author, unless
someone truly has thewherewithal financially to buy
every single book that they comeacross.
They've got to make decisions,and so I think that's a
consideration for people whenthey go to events like that is,
(32:38):
who's going to be there, howmany people are going to be
there, and then just kind oflearning over time what
percentage of those peopleactually are interested in
reading and in reading thisgenre.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Yeah, and where I live, we get a lot of tourists
in the summer, so the summermarket.
I know a couple of my bookswent back to Germany because
that's where they were.
They were on a cruise, right.
They're coming back home, right, they need something to read.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
You never know when you're working with people on
the craft of it, of what they'rewriting, where do you find that
people get really stuck?
Oh my gosh, I mean one of them,me, right, or what's something
that they thought.
Oh, I didn't think.
You know, I thought this wouldbe easy.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
The showing versus telling is a big one.
I'm part of a critique group aswell as doing these workshops
that I'm doing and definitelyand I'm my first draft is
definitely mostly telling.
So then I have to go back andshow For sure.
Yeah, I think that's the big one.
And showing emotions.
I find it with a couple people.
I don't know if they're, as anauthor, afraid to show their
(33:46):
emotions, because maybe theyrelate to the characters but
actually like if you and I werein a relationship and showing
the attraction and the thingslike that.
Maybe it's a little harder toput on the page as much as they
want to, or maybe they're alittle timid to be like well,
will anybody actually want toread this scene?
I don't know.
I do think that's challengingPulling out those emotions.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
Yeah, it's challenging to take some.
There's a reason why we sayit's hard to put into words and
I think taking those, takingfeelings and even actions and
translating them into words canfeel very awkward for people,
until I'm kind of curious abouthow you do that with killing.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Well, I do that and I do have sex scenes in my books,
so I do both.
That is a great question,because I just have a lot of
people get shot or like stab,like I like to.
I can not just stabbing, Idon't, I'm not just bang, you're
dead, it's oh bang, there'syour kneecap gone.
Let's, let's, keep you in painfor a while.
(34:50):
Are the?
Is that?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
detail that you build out over time, like when you
first write it is it like heshot him in the kneecap, and
then when you go back, it's likethen I'll describe, yeah,
dangling or something shattered,okay, something like that, or I
could see where that would befun.
I mean, I don't understand ifmaybe I'm to have some issues
(35:14):
that might need to be assessed,but I feel like I can see where
that would be kind of fun.
I feel like a lot of us have alittle bit of rage right now.
Right, better to take it out ona fictional character, exactly.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
And, unfortunately, some not so innocent ones.
I do get the text messages.
Oh my god, I can't believe youkilled.
Insert name here.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Really.
It had to happen in the story,yeah, and people get upset.
It's kind of like when you Wellnot really.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
It's more of oh my gosh, like you just did that, I
did not see that coming, not-.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh well, that's good.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Why did you kill them ?
Yeah, okay, that's good, it'sthe good feedback.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah Well, I think it's always good when you don't
see something coming.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
That's what I try to do this book like great, I've
done something right.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Yeah, I did something right.
That's delightful.
I'm just picturing some woman Iin a bathtub, like just yeah,
and then snuggled in.
But I mean, stories like thatstand the test of time.
People just love.
I don't think you have to be,you know, violent, adjacent to
like stuff like that.
I think it's just an escape.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Yeah, and if you write good characters and the
overall story arc works andeverything's connected Right,
then overall you have a goodstory.
Then that's the big thingOnward.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
Right, yeah, so you know, I always end with what
you're reading.
You already mentioned one thingthat you're reading, but what
else are you reading?
And we've talked about whatyou're watching on tv.
So did.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Uh, I am also reading .
It's called the girls whostepped out of the line.
Untold stories of the women whochanged the course of world war
ii now, that surprises me,natasha.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
I did not expect.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
I did not expect that I know so I generally read a
biography, World War IInonfiction I have a lot of World
War II nonfiction that I readand then a fiction book, whether
it be a thriller or romance.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
I'm just getting into offbeat romance.
What's offbeat romance?
Well, to me, offbeat, like thethriller romance.
Speaker 1 (37:19):
Oh, okay, for.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Ann Weaver's of the world.
She's also Canadian and shewrites serial killer romances um
yeah, and the rabbit hole ofcategories.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I know like I can just see people going out onto
their bookstore of choice andlooking up like serial killer
romance but yeah, this.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
So that book, the girls who stepped out of line.
It just talks about women inworld war ii and their stories
and maybe, maybe things youhaven't heard, like they were
spies or they were reporters, orare you a big history person
and I I feel I've been thinkingabout this lately.
I feel like I read world war iinon-fiction just to learn how
it happened, like to look forthe signs, but um, it's also to
(38:02):
remember how we've gotten wherewe are and why we have the
freedoms, because so much wassacrificed, and I family
connections to it, of course.
Okay, bring it to around to metoo.
So I think that's.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
I've always enjoyed it, but people are often shocked
that I am very shocked and I'venever been a history person
ever until recently, becausesuddenly, given the state of
this world, I want to betterunderstand how did we get here?
Where are we, what does thatterm mean?
(38:36):
And I find myself reallyinterested in it.
And to that point I reallyenjoy reading books that give me
a little bit of a historylesson and or that introduce me
to something in history where Ithink, well, now I want to learn
more about that.
So maybe it doesn't go into itin depth in the book, but it
(38:57):
introduces it to the point thatI get intrigued and then I go
find more actual, non-fictiontype writing on it yeah, and
that's what I've tried to do,even with my my first series
about human trafficking I have.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
There are a few things that I embellish, but I
have resources in the back too,because, yeah, it was a social
issue people in Canada weren'treally talking about and it's
our number one growing crime, isit really?
Yes, and it's really big inNova Scotia that was part of my
goal was shed some light on that, and I'm sure my mob series
will talk on political and othercorruptions.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Excited for that one, I don't know why, like I wasn't
, a big when, I when anyone saysthe mob, I hear two things
godfather and sopranos.
I really wasn't into either.
Sopranos, I I just never it'seither.
Sopranos I just never.
It's great, I'm sure it's great, I just never got into it.
I may not have even hadwhatever it was, wasn't it on
HBO or something right?
I don't think I had HBO or likesome crazy thing.
(39:54):
But when I hear mob, that'swhat I think of and I don't know
why.
But now suddenly it intriguesme, and that it intrigues me
that it intrigues me because Ididn't watch it.
Maybe I need to go back andwatch it, I don't know.
Well, thank you so much forcoming on and chatting and I'll
put all the links to your booksand et cetera in the episode
(40:14):
notes.
Thank you for having me.
This is great.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
If you enjoyed this episode,this is your friendly reminder
to follow or subscribe, leave aquick review and share it with
someone you know has a greatstory or message but isn't sure
what to do next.
Also, remember to check outpublishaprofitablebookcom for
(40:35):
book writing resources and tipsand to see all the ways we can
work together to get your bookout into the world.
Again, thanks so much forlistening, and I'll talk with
you again soon.
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